STANDING COMMITTEE ON ESTIMATES AND FINANCIAL OPERATIONS

BUDGET STATEMENTS

TRANSCRIPT OF EVIDENCE TAKEN AT PERTH TUESDAY, 28 JULY 2009

SESSION ONE

Members

Hon Giz Watson (Chair) Hon Philip Gardiner (Deputy Chair) Hon Liz Behjat Hon Ken Travers Hon Ljiljanna Ravlich ______Estimates and Financial Operations Tuesday, 28 July 2009 - Session One Page 1

Hearing commenced at 9.40 am

O’BRIEN, HON SIMON Minister for Transport, sworn and examined:

WALDOCK, MR REECE Chief Executive Officer, Public Transport Authority, sworn and examined:

KING, MR PETER Executive Director Finance and Contracts, Public Transport Authority, sworn and examined:

The CHAIR: On behalf of the committee, I would like to welcome you this morning to this meeting. Before we begin, I am required to administer the oath or affirmation, so I would ask you to indicate to the committee clerk if you would prefer to take the oath, and, if so, we have copies of the Bible. We are trialling a new process this morning and we are going to do you all together; that is just to let you know. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: Am I required to be sworn, as a member? The CHAIR: Unfortunately, yes. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: I am more than happy to do so. Hon KEN TRAVERS: You voted for it, minister! [Witnesses took the oath or affirmation.] The CHAIR: Could you please state your full name, your contact address, and the capacity in which you appear before the committee. Mr Waldock: Reece Waldock, Chief Executive Officer of the Public Transport Authority, West Parade, East Perth. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: Simon O’Brien, MLC, Minister for Transport. Mr King: Peter King, executive director, finance and contracts, Public Transport Authority, West Parade, East Perth. The CHAIR: You will have signed a document entitled “Information for Witnesses”. Have you read and understood that document? The Witnesses: Yes. The CHAIR: These proceedings are being recorded by Hansard. A transcript of your evidence will be provided to you. To assist the committee and Hansard, please quote the full title of any document you refer to during the course of the hearing, and please be aware of the microphones and try to talk directly into them. I remind you that your transcript will become a matter for the public record. If for some reason you wish to make a confidential statement during today’s proceedings, you should request that the evidence be taken in closed session. If the committee grants your request, any public and media in attendance will be excluded from the hearing. Please note that until such time as the transcript of your public evidence is finalised, it should not be made public. I advise you that premature publication or disclosure of the uncorrected transcript may constitute a contempt of

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Parliament and may mean that the material published or disclosed is not subject to parliamentary privilege. I remind members again to assist Hansard by referring to the Budget Statements by either the volumes or the consolidated account estimates by way of page number, item, program and amount in preface to your questions. Hon LJILJANNA RAVLICH: I refer, minister, to page 438, and the heading of “Outcome: Accessible, reliable and safe public transport system”, and I am particularly interested in this issue of assaults on bus drivers. First of all, how many Path Transit buses are there in operation? Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: Are you talking about Path Transit or are you talking about Transperth? Hon LJILJANNA RAVLICH: I will have both. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: I just wanted to find out what it is you wanted. You mentioned Path Transit; are you talking about the overall amount or just for Path Transit? Hon LJILJANNA RAVLICH: Yes, but can I have the two different categories? Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: I am sure we can do that. You want to know? Hon LJILJANNA RAVLICH: How many Transperth buses there are and how many Path Transit buses there are. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: Mr Waldock. Mr Waldock: I have not got the exact number, but I think there is in the order of about 1 160 buses, and Path Transit have about 400 buses, so about 38 per cent—of that order. Hon LJILJANNA RAVLICH: How many drivers on those buses have been assaulted by passengers in the last 12 months? Mr Waldock: I am afraid we have not actually broken it down by driver; we have actually got a total number of bus security incidents over the period. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: In relation to — Hon LJILJANNA RAVLICH: Are you saying to me — The CHAIR: One second, member; perhaps I will just allow the minister to respond. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: The question, as I understand it, is: how many assaults there have been on bus drivers in the last year? Hon LJILJANNA RAVLICH: Yes. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: So you are referring to what—the calendar year to date, 12 months, or — Hon LJILJANNA RAVLICH: Yes. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: Okay. Hon KEN TRAVERS: What figures do you have, I guess, is the easiest thing. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: Okay; I understand the question. It is specifically the bus drivers? Hon LJILJANNA RAVLICH: Yes. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: There are a whole range of other incidents that may or may not be directed at bus drivers. Mr Waldock: We will have to take that on notice. My knowledge is that we have probably in the order of three that I can think of bus drivers in Perth, but if I could take that on notice I will come back with an exact number for you. [Supplementary Information No A1.]

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Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: As we understand it, the question is: how many bus drivers have been assaulted in the last 12-month period? Hon LJILJANNA RAVLICH: Yes. The CHAIR: That is my understanding of the question. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: To 12 months back from today’s date. Hon LJILJANNA RAVLICH: Yes. It sounds to me as though you do not actually gather information in respect of assaults on bus drivers as employees. Am I correct in saying that? Mr Waldock: We would have all that information as not employees, but as our contractors. That information is readily available; it is part of our OS&H reporting, so it would be available. Unfortunately, I have not got it today, I am afraid. Hon LJILJANNA RAVLICH: Can I ask you then, minister, what the government is doing about protecting bus drivers? Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: The government places a high store on the security of its bus drivers, and, indeed, on bus patrons generally. We have a number of arrangements in place. Firstly, there are some security guards who are employed to do a range of functions. They do that through static security in situ, through CCTV monitoring of various bus termini and other locations. We have contract security officers who perform mobile patrols, literally following buses—obviously that is a targeted schedule. Obviously, we do not advertise publicly what the actual beat is, but it is well known and it should be known that they are out. They are targeted towards areas in which we have had indications of trouble or antisocial behaviour. There is also a guard presence literally on board the Nightrider buses—in fact, it is probably the case that between the driver and security staff, they generally outnumber the passengers on some of the Nightrider services. Our security guards also make bus station checks as part of their patrols. In answer to an earlier question, Mr Waldock indicated that there are well over 1 100 buses out there, and of course they are spread over a large geographical area. We do have targeted patrols in support of our bus drivers so that we can respond. In addition, of course, there is also police backup available in the case of an emergency. The other measures to protect bus drivers are buses all have—certainly all that are travelling at night—CCTV cameras continuously recording. [9.45 am] Mr Waldock: All our buses have CCTV cameras. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: All of them. Hon LJILJANNA RAVLICH: Are they all in working order? Mr Waldock: Ninety-six per cent; we actually have that online and 96 per cent is a typical figure online and working. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: Furthermore, a number of our buses are fitted with protective cabs for drivers. I do not like to use the term “cage”, but some of them are of a mesh appearance. We have also got the other moulded ones as well. They provide, literally, a physical measure of protection for bus drivers. In the case of the actual numbers of assaults, we have taken a question on notice just now and will provide the exact figure for that 12 month period till 28 July 2009 in due course. There is an ongoing concern, which I share, amongst our bus drivers, a concern shared by PTA management and by the contractors’ management, about antisocial activity—not necessarily assaults, but antisocial behaviour and other aggressive stances being taken by some elements against some of our bus drivers. In the last 48 hours or so, for example, we have seen media reports of concern about these rock throwing incidents, which is, again, causing concern. The government is dinkum about providing all the protection that we can and providing a safe working environment

Estimates and Financial Operations Tuesday, 28 July 2009 - Session One Page 4 for our bus drivers as well as patrons, and that is why we have also got the Attorney General examining options to make sure that the laws to bring offenders to book are sound and without loopholes, and he will be reporting on that in due course. I just want to emphasise the government’s determination to support the PTA, the bus companies and the drivers in making sure that we come down hard to stamp out this sort of antisocial behaviour. Hon LJILJANNA RAVLICH: Minister, by way of the question that you have taken on notice, can you also give me the breakdown of the categories, of the assault types of categories—one, how you define them and, in terms of the total number of assaults, how many fall into each of the categories? Now, in terms of your commitment to improve the lot of bus drivers—before I get to that actually, I will ask you: how many mobile security staff are there for the 1 160 buses in one category and the additional 400? We are talking about 1 560, and we want to know how many mobile security staff there are. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: Thanks very much for that. The question was how many patrols do we have over the 1 160-odd — Hon LJILJANNA RAVLICH: Mobile security staff—not patrols, individuals. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: Well, I can give you an indication. The hours per week is probably the best way to express it. There is something over 900 hours per week of mobile security patrolling carried out. It is also—probably it might assist the member if I point out that that whole bus fleet is not abroad during the hours of darkness. There is perhaps, you know, at a rough guess, 100 buses actually in service of the evenings and the night time. Hon LJILJANNA RAVLICH: Minister, with all due respect, I actually asked you one question and you want to give me an answer to another question. My question was: how many mobile security staff are there in operation? How many individuals are there to cover this — Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: Madam Chair, I would be very pleased to address that question with respect to the committee, but I was asked a string of questions which had relation to 1 100 buses and 400 buses and what have you, and I was trying to assist the committee by indicating the quantum of mobile service patrols that are made available per week. However, in relation to the actual number of individual officers—and I do not know if that is going to help because of course you need other information; you know, how long those shifts are and all that sort of thing. That is why the quantum of over 900 hours per week is actually probably the more pertinent fact with which to assist the committee. But if the member insists on the numbers, I will see what we can find out. Mr Waldock: In the order of about 30, I would guess. Hon LJILJANNA RAVLICH: Thirty. Mr Waldock: Thirty. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: So about 30 individuals—is that on duty? Mr Waldock: Yes, if these are the hours — Hon PHILIP GARDINER: That is on a short hour day—short hours per day. I work out about 17, based on the calculations and the numbers you have given so far and based on an eight hour day of operation. Mr Waldock: Well they are not eight hours—we use them from two o’clock to one o’clock, so we do not—in fact the times do vary, and again it is — Hon PHILIP GARDINER: Sorry, I was thinking farming hours. Actually, even they are shorter than farming hours. Hon KEN TRAVERS: Is that sowing or harvesting?

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The CHAIR: We are not referring to farming hours — Hon PHILIP GARDINER: Sorry, transport. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: I thought farmers started earlier than 1400 hours, but obviously it is a very different world! The CHAIR: That is right! Mr Waldock. Mr Waldock: These are shift arrangements — Hon KEN TRAVERS: They drive the school bus at 1400 hours, minister. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: Mr Waldock may wish to amplify, but we engage so many person hours as a way of covering or providing the best coverage that we can with the funding available. It is not, because it is provided, that is the way we purchase the services; it is not a question for us of, you know, how many total employees engaged in that or how many shifts or anything like that. We want the coverage from that hour to that hour in these areas, and that is what we pay for and receive. Mr Waldock, did you have anything to add? Mr Waldock: I think that—I mean, we would be delighted to come back and give you numbers, but as you would understand, that is risk based: different areas, different stations, have different times and shifts. Some people obviously part time, some people more fulltime. But that is why we think the hours is probably the most appropriate way of indicating it, and it is in the order, as the minister indicated, of around about 1 000 hours per week in mobile patrols only. They are with a contractor called Wilsons. Wilsons came in on February this year. But I am more than happy, if you want to again put a question on notice to, actually modify that response from hours per week to number of contractors we use. Hon LJILJANNA RAVLICH: Could I just say that it seems to me that the estimate range is somewhere between 17, based on the calculations of my learned friend over here, and Mr Waldock’s 30, based on your calculations in terms of FTE for 1 560 buses. Mr Waldock: So it is probably somewhere in there. Hon LJILJANNA RAVLICH: Minister, could I just ask you — The CHAIR: Sorry, just before you continue, I suggest that we actually formally put that to you on notice to get that clarified. [Supplementary Information No A2.] Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: I think, Madam Chair, we will be able to clarify any sense of ambiguity about it, and this just highlights the reason for me giving my response in terms of contact or service hours. Yes, you might have so many fulltime equivalents or you might have a larger number of people providing a lesser number of FTEs. The whole question is about comparing apples with apples. That is what we want to do for you. So we are not trying to generate any confusion on the member’s part. Hon LJILJANNA RAVLICH: Minister, will you be fitting buses with metal grills to stop drivers being punched and verbally abused and — [10.00 am] Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: I think that I have already indicated that we have a number of buses which already have what I call a cab protector or a driver compartment protection. That provides a strong measure of protection against drivers being assaulted, although clearly it would not prevent them from being verbally abused. Perhaps the director general can answer the question about the number of buses that are fitted with cab or driver compartment protection. Mr Waldock: Again, I would not want to in any way misrepresent the numbers. I think it is about 160. I guess the important point is that every bus company has plenty of buses to call on with cages

Estimates and Financial Operations Tuesday, 28 July 2009 - Session One Page 6 for night duty. It has never been an issue. We will fit them as they require them, but there has never been an issue with access to buses at night with cages, as the minister suggested. Although we do not like to call them cages, after many years of working with the bus drivers, most of them fundamentally do look like cages, because that was considered by the drivers to be better than some of the plastic alternatives because of such things as light reflection. Although I do not think it is very aesthetic, what we have now is a metal cage. They are freely available, and there has not been an issue in recent times with companies suggesting that we need more, but we are always happy to review that. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: I understand that, although the member referred to metal cages and that is what Mr Waldock was discussing, the total number of security cabs of all types, be they moulded Perspex or metal cages or whatever, is in the order of about 468 as at the time that the budget papers were prepared. Hon LJILJANNA RAVLICH: In view of the spate of offences against bus drivers, what steps does the minister intend to take to bolster the security of bus drivers? Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: I thank the member for that question. Further to the answer that I have already given along similar lines—I will not repeat it because I know that the committee’s time is precious—when it all boils down, the matter that the member raises is not only of the government providing a safe working environment. I have outlined some ways that we are doing that. The PTA has actually been dealing with this for some years. I want to remind the committee, however, that this is a matter for the police. That is why we want to make sure that the very small number of people, as a proportion of the total number of passengers who come on board our vehicles, get the message that offences against bus drivers are serious and we as a government, through our agencies, will pursue them vigorously. It is a police matter, and the PTA is in contemporaneous discussions with the police about the recent spate of incidents. There is a cross-agency response, but it is all about getting the message out that people should not behave in that way, and cracking down hard on those who do. Hon ALISON XAMON: Before I begin with my questions, I have placed some questions on notice, and I was wondering whether I have the responses to those. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: Indeed, I was just about to hand over those answers at the beginning, Madam Chair, but you move so smoothly and promptly into the procedure. Hon KEN TRAVERS: It is not like you to be caught flat-footed, minister! Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: No, I was not caught flat-footed; I was just deferring respectfully to the Chair. We have brought eight copies of the answers, as required. It was a question in 17 parts, so we have broken it down to 17 pages worth of answers. There is plenty of reading there for the member. Hon ALISON XAMON: Thank you, minister. The CHAIR: Before we proceed, I want to confirm with the minister that the committee will move to make those answers public. Is there any concern with that? Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: I have no objection whatsoever. Hon ALISON XAMON: With regard to the asset investment program outlined on page 442, I refer to the recent decision to scrap the Northbridge Nightrider bus services. Did the government spend any money in 2008-09 on evaluating the reasons given by potential Nightrider passengers for deciding against using the service; and, if so, was safety a key issue? Was any money spent trying to ascertain whether there would be a need for the service? Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: Money is spent in the normal course of PTA activities. It would be interesting to speculate on how much money was spent preparing the answer to that question, perhaps. Hon ALISON XAMON: The question I just asked?

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Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: In relation to the question now before the Chair, I might ask Mr Waldock to discuss that. Mr Waldock: There is an interesting history to the Nightrider service. We put a very substantial amount of money into marketing Nightrider services when we first committed to them. I think we spent about $250 000 on placing posters, brochures, stick-on tags at urinals and other marketing assistance so that everybody in the nightclub area would consider the Nightrider service as a real possibility. Following that marketing, we promoted the buses by painting and badging them and branding them in different ways. Our feedback from contractors and bus drivers about the numbers of people—they were the captive ones—was that the response was always pretty soft. We initially had three routes from Northbridge. We dropped that down to two, but patronage on those two routes has been dropping off over time. Patronage was in the order of four to six passengers, depending on the route. Four for the Scarborough route and six for the Fremantle route were about the average numbers for the service. On the basis of that, given that we had both a security guard and a driver on the bus, it clearly did not stack up in any sense. One taxi would almost provide that same level of service. To answer your question, we did not go to the next step of doing significant market research to ask people why they were not using the service. I guess it is fair to say that over an extended history of, we think, marketing the service reasonably well—it is certainly very newsworthy because there has been ongoing debate over the past two years about whether we would maintain the service—we decided to drop the service as a result of lack of market response. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: Can I just add to that? The PTA and successive governments really gave the Nightrider bus services a good go. I might add that the Fremantle services on two routes are continuing. That is totally funded by the state government. It gets to a point at which we must look at the value for the taxpayer dollar. When the routes have been operated during the high season, during the holiday period and throughout the year and you look at the patterns of usage, it becomes impossible to justify the service. The level of subsidy was quite extraordinary given the level of patronage. That demonstrates that, particularly in the small hours when people are leaving entertainment precincts, they are really looking for a door-to-door transport option. Try as the authority might, with the Nightrider service there was a limit with how far we could actually go with that. That is probably why the Fremantle services work better. Fremantle has the ocean on 180 degrees, and there are some very clear transport corridors and catchment areas for people who go to Fremantle, which works well, whereas if you look at the Northbridge, there are significantly more points of the compass. If you look at the demographics of those attending the Northbridge entertainment precinct, they come from all over the place. While bus routes going out along Canning Highway or South Street can attract patronage going to and from Fremantle, that is not necessarily the case with the Northbridge option. I reassure the member that exhaustive consideration was given to this over a period. The question of the future of the Northbridge Nightrider was raised with government long before the recent announcement that the services would cease at the end of this month. There was also consultation with the City of Perth through the Lord Mayor, Lisa Scaffidi, because the City of Perth had actually co-funded the Northbridge services, unlike the City of Fremantle, which did not fund Nightrider. The City of Perth has been very concerned about getting value for money as well, and it has a very local focus on the needs of the Northbridge area. The Lord Mayor and the City of Perth are very comfortable with and supportive of our decision to do away with those Northbridge Nightrider services, but it also acknowledges that we have taken some other actions that are outside the area that you are examining today. They relate to taxi facilities, secure ranks, marshals and the like. The decision was not made without due consideration. Hon ALISON XAMON: Thank you, minister. The concern I have is that I am hoping that we will not see an increase in the number of drink-drivers exiting Northbridge late at night. I suppose that is something we are going to need to keep a very close eye on, particularly for those people who

Estimates and Financial Operations Tuesday, 28 July 2009 - Session One Page 8 cannot afford taxi services, which can be very expensive, especially if you have ended up inadvertently spending all your money on entertainment that evening. I refer to the government’s goal mentioned on page 437 of the Budget Statements to have an accessible, reliable and safe public transport system. I also refer to a recent article in The West Australian noting that the Armadale train line continues to be the most dangerous line in Perth. What, if anything, is the government proposing to spend on addressing this continuing problem, this year and in the out years, specifically around the Armadale line? Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: We will take the question, because it is pertinent to the operations of the agency. The thrust of the question is firstly about security on the Armadale passenger rail line, and secondly about what measures are being taken to improve security. I will ask Mr Waldock to address the question and put in perspective the claims that have been aired that it is the least safe — Hon ALISON XAMON: It was actually in a newspaper article. I have a copy of it here if you need it. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: We do not use newspaper articles. Hon LJILJANNA RAVLICH: You used to. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: Not in the proceedings of Parliament, and this is a proceeding of Parliament. I will ask Mr Waldock to comment on the subject that the member quite rightly raises, and I thank her for her interest in the subject. Mr Waldock: There is no doubt that the Armadale line has always been our high-incidence line, and it has continued to be. It is not as if we have not put a lot of work into it. I should indicate that although the Armadale line is more difficult in terms of incidents, including assaults and the like, all our lines are reducing in terms of those incidents on a per journey basis. I think we need to put it into context. The system has grown so quickly that the absolute numbers are increasing in terms of the interface, in other words, a traveller who would be likely to actually have an incident like that. I unfortunately do not have the numbers on me, but they are extraordinarily small. They are in the order of — [10.15 am] Hon ALISON XAMON: I have got the numbers here if you want them. I am again referring to the article itself. It says that PTA data obtained shows that 223 offences were recorded compared with just 188 at the same time last year, an increase of almost 19 per cent. May I suggest that if you were one of those 223 people, it would not feel like a particularly small number of assaults? Mr Waldock: Of course. We are not walking away from that. There is no doubt it is a difficult line, particularly after seven o’clock at night. It is fair to say, though, that in terms of our whole planning for transit guards, we have a plan called the X plan. This is devised by our transit officers, so it is their plan, but it was very much aimed at putting transit officers on the lines when we need them. Whilst we used to have pretty much a balance during the day and night, the vast majority of transit officers work between three o’clock until the end of business. That is the first thing. Secondly, they are all actually line-based now, so we have dedicated people that understand the customers. There are many regular customers, as you would expect. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: Recidivist customers. Mr Waldock: Recidivist customers that they actually get to understand. Hon ALISON XAMON: People who cannot afford a car. Mr Waldock: Yes, and that too. So we are far better, I think, working with the customers. Thirdly, I think it is important to understand that because the Armadale line is the worst, we have in fact taken people off some lines and put them on Armadale, so Armadale has actually got more manned stations than any other line in the system. Not only have we got more manned stations, we try to get

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100 per cent coverage on all trains after seven o’clock at night in terms of two transit officers, but if there area any people lacking there, we make sure that the Armadale trains are manned fully. Sometimes we are down to 93 per cent, based on people booking off and the like and other incidents on the system. I guess the other thing we do with the Armadale lines is that we even follow the last train out with the delta car as well. Delta cars are the cars that respond to emergencies at any station anywhere. They are our mobile transit officers. We not only have them on the line, we have them follow the last train to Armadale as well. I guess we take a risk-based approach. Armadale is without doubt our most difficult line. I actually think we have done a lot to work on Armadale, but it is a community issue, and we will continue to strive to try to improve our services there. Hon ALISON XAMON: Just on this point again, I am very familiar with the Armadale line and the Midland line. They are both in my area. I actually use the trains myself. I can say anecdotally that there are a lot of people who do not use the trains after certain hours precisely because of security. I am just concerned that people who would like to and who would want to are not doing that. I suppose that is why I want to know whether there is any anticipated increase in the forward estimates for security for these. I am going to particularly focus on Midland and Armadale, because I am aware, riding those lines, it is different from riding the other lines, particularly the lovely journey that is the journey to Fremantle. Are you planning on increasing the amount of money that is going to go towards security on those lines in future years, and I mean significantly not just? Mr Waldock: Perhaps I would like to better understand how we could. If the train stations are fully manned, unless we widen the number of train stations and every railcar has got double manning, I guess we get to a level where we ask how much is enough. Hon ALISON XAMON: Certainly, can I say, at the very least a lot of the train stations on those lines are actually substandard, they have not even got quality lighting and they are actually still quite dangerous in terms of being able to travel though the underpasses and the like. They are far from safe. I can say that first-hand. Mr Waldock: I think that is a little bit unfair actually. Hon ALISON XAMON: Would you like me to point to the area. Mr Waldock: We would like to take you out there. We might go out together. Hon ALISON XAMON: I would absolutely love to have that opportunity. Mr Waldock: Let us do that. Certainly, at most of the train stations we have got a program of designing out crime, and we are very much part of that. Most of our stations have had some sort of improvement over the years. If you look at the Armadale line, I think that compared with what it was seven years ago, it has got good housekeeping; it is very clean. We have tried, wherever we see risks, to improve it. The lighting has been improved enormously on the Armadale line, bearing in mind that we have got 16 stations and it is a very long one. Hon ALISON XAMON: It is a very long line. Mr Waldock: I actually think we have made enormous efforts on that, but we would like, if you wish, to go out and further discuss that. Hon ALISON XAMON: I will take you up on that. Thank you. Hon KEN TRAVERS: I just want to follow on the theme of security. When Hon Ljiljanna Ravlich asked a question at the beginning today, you indicated that you had some figures there about bus security incidents. I am just wondering if you could tell us what details you do have about bus security incidents and other antisocial behaviour and what time period you have them for. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: The number of security incidents on board buses are in 2007-08, 3 989, with a total boardings figure of 53.77 million. That is just to put it into context. In 2008-09, there were 5 593 incidents, and that was over a total boardings figure of 60.67 million. So there has

Estimates and Financial Operations Tuesday, 28 July 2009 - Session One Page 10 clearly been an increase in the number of incidents per million boardings between those two financial years. Hon KEN TRAVERS: Do you have similar figures for the train system. Mr Waldock: Definitely. Hon KEN TRAVERS: Do you have them there. The CHAIR: Do you want to take that on notice? Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: Can we provide those by way of supplementary information? It is to make sure that we give you comparable data. I would prefer to take it on notice. [Supplementary Information No A3.] Hon KEN TRAVERS: Can give us a bit of a breakdown of what you define as a bus security incident for the purposes of those figures? Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: The definitions would include altercations, meaning arguments causing annoyance or abusive behaviour; antisocial behaviour, and there has been a big rise there in the two financial years that I reported, from about 619 incidents in 2007-08 to 1 228 report in 2008-09. That is antisocial behaviour. There is a significant increase there. The sorts of behaviour that we call antisocial behaviour under the reporting include swearing, spitting, urinating, loitering, standing on seats, feet on seats, smoking in banned areas and similar standards of behaviour. The security incidents also would include assault, whether that might range from spitting on a person, assault with a weapon, physical violence; dangerous behaviour; fireworks on the vehicle, and there was one instance of that; graffiti incidents; intoxication; possession and use of drugs; robbery; rock or projectile throwing; ticket disputes; vandalism. That is the sort of thing you would expect these days, I am sure. Hon KEN TRAVERS: If you are able to table them, do you have a breakdown of each of those different categories, similar to the ones that you had for the antisocial behaviour? Say, for graffiti and rock throwing, have you got a breakdown of those figures? Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: I will just confer with Mr Waldock to see, but I certainly do not have any such notes with me. Madam Chair, what we will take on notice then is that the member is interested in a breakdown, to the extent we can, of the various behaviour that constitute those sorts of incidents. [Supplementary Information No A4.] Hon KEN TRAVERS: I was just wondering if you are able to give us a figure for the cost of cleaning up graffiti and the cost of repairing buses after rock-throwing incidents and also the cost of fixing other vandalism. Have you got those? Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: The question was quite specific and related to damage to buses. Hon KEN TRAVERS: The cost of repairing. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: The cost of repairing damage to buses. In the interests of providing an accurate figure, I would ask if we could take that one on notice as well. An indication of the cost to the PTA of overall damage— graffiti on infrastructure and what have you, and trains and everything included—I am told it is in the order of $2.7 million per annum. I think your question was more specific than that, and we will drill down and get that information. Hon KEN TRAVERS: As part of that, if you are going to take it on notice, if you could drill down into the particularly categories, say, vandalism versus graffiti versus repairing broken windows from rock throwing, and if you can break it up by buses and rail and also by country and metro, if you could give us those different categories.

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Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: Madam Chair, we will certainly do our best to provide that. It is all in the Hansard and we will do our best to provide all of that information. I am sure we can provide a table that addresses all of those queries. The thing that makes us baulk just a little bit on the spot—in my mind at least because I want to provide accurate information—is about the division between what amount bus companies pick up and what is supplementary assistance provided by the PTA in respect of those vehicles. [10.30 am] Hon KEN TRAVERS: If you know the figure that is in the contracts with individual companies, that would be useful; that is, in terms of how much they are already picking up over and above that. We would like to get a picture of the total cost of these problems. Ultimately, the authority picks it up when it pays the contract fees to the private companies. It would be helpful if we could get a breakdown of what the authority is paying in addition and what the contractor is picking up. [Supplementary Information No A5.] Hon PHILIP GARDINER: Stopping graffiti is a nightmare not only in Australia, but for a number of countries. The question really is: do we have cross-department cooperation to get a solution to the graffiti issue? For example, I know of one art shop in Subiaco that had to hide its paint pens out of sight under the counter where customers pay because they were being stolen. Their understanding was that the pens were stolen for graffiti purposes. Is that where the problem is? The PTA must have gone through these difficult areas in trying to solve this issue. Do we need laws or are there other issues that need to be addressed? Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: Hon Philip Gardiner is correct: graffiti is a concern of all right-minded people across the board. This sort of vandalism and criminal damage to property is not restricted to PTA property or that of our contractors. The PTA’s core business is to provide public transport services to the citizens of Western Australia, and it does that very, very well. The figures bear that out in the numbers of passengers and the vehicles that we use. Although members are right to highlight occasions on which that performance could be improved, the PTA’s performance in the wider Australian context is something that we can all be very proud of. PTA provides excellent services. It is not as though graffiti is just a PTA problem or that somehow the authority contributes to it; it does not. We go about providing quality public transport services on millions of occasions; indeed, that is our core business. It is just a pity that every now and then we have someone who wants to throw a rock or deface some of our vehicles. Of course, the cost of fixing that so that we can continue to display properly presented vehicles, for example, is visited on every taxpayer in Western Australia. In relation to cross-agency liaison, I will ask Mr Waldock to comment, because I know there is proactive behaviour in this. Mr Waldock: I will reinforce what the minister has said. Our bus fleet, and certainly our train fleet, would be without question the cleanest in Australia. We often hear comments comparing our trains, which are up to 15 years old, with other train sets of the A series in Australia, and our trains are far cleaner. We not only manage our rolling stock well, but we have a very clear clean-up policy. We have looked at best practice in terms of graffiti and vandalism and we make every effort to get that cleaned up as quickly as we can—within 48 hours maximum. We do not need graffiti on graffiti, because it sets up a downward spiral. We do that pretty well. In the past three years we have made some inroads through what we call our Right Track program. That program was kicked off on the Armadale line. We worked with all the schools on the Armadale line. If members were to go to stations on the Armadale line, they would see that the local schools have their own art on the stations. However, we have done more than that. We have worked with high-risk kids, Sevenoaks College and some of the Aboriginal kids in the area. In fact, I have been out to meet them both in Armadale and in Kwinana. We are using millennium kits as well. We are trying to be a little bit smarter and to get into the kids’ minds about why they do things and how they do it. Members will

Estimates and Financial Operations Tuesday, 28 July 2009 - Session One Page 12 notice a number of posters on our trains—the kids have developed these posters themselves—about thinking about what they do before they do it. More than that, if members have travelled on the system in the past two years, they will see that we have a lot of social art. In a number of the high- risk areas we have had trained artists working with the kids on their own art. We are happy to provide the committee with the research on that. It has achieved outstanding results that have shown that public art on high-risk areas for graffiti has pretty much eliminated any graffiti on those areas. Hon PHILIP GARDINER: That is very interesting. Mr Waldock: We are seeing some really good messages coming here. Once that art is badged and seen in the kids’ mind as untouchable, they do not touch it. As I said, we have some really good research on that. As part of that, PTA—although PTA is leading it—works with local government councils and other government agencies to make sure we get government resources in the right place. We have done some really good things, not just in the physical side of clean-up, but in trying to understand better the psyche of graffitists. We have seen some real improvement. Hon PHILIP GARDINER: In relation to that, I want to say how refreshing that is, as was our discussion with the police yesterday about going into schools. Hon LJILJANNA RAVLICH: I wanted to direct this question to the minister. Mr Waldock made the comment earlier that 96 per cent of the government fleet, I am assuming, has operational CCTV in working order. What about the PTA’s contractor or contractors? Can the PTA guarantee that these CCTVs are in working order? Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: Through you, Madam Chair, the member will find it is one and the same. The bus fleet is actually owned by the state of Western Australia and is operated on our behalf by three contractors in 11 contract areas in the metro area; therefore, the vehicles are one and the same. The figure of 96 per cent of service ability at any one time, allowing for what happens with electronics, particularly in a very busy working environment—a working bus—is a pretty high level of operational capacity. I will defer to Mr Waldock to explain exactly what the 96 per cent means and to put that in context. Mr Waldock: I think the minister has answered pretty well. DTI Group is a small WA company that sells its CCTV technology all around the world. DTI is probably the world leader in mobile CCTV technology. DTI has equipped the whole fleet. As part of that, in the past two years we have had good information systems. When the buses come in every night to the depots, they download automatically into the management system. That management system indicates whether there are any faults on those CCTV cameras. We can see at any time whether the storage cameras on the buses are working. As I said, 96 per cent workability is a typical level. They have a high level of reliability. Hon LJILJANNA RAVLICH: It has been reported in the media that many of these units do not work or are out of working order. It seems that somebody has got it right and somebody has got it wrong. I want certainty, in protecting bus drivers generally, that these machines are working. They should be working 100 per cent, not 96 per cent, of the time. It has been reported that the workability figure is considerably lower than 96 per cent. If the buses have CCTV and the information is downloaded, one would assume that the 1 228 offences, for example, for antisocial behaviour receive some follow-up with the people who commit these behaviours. What happens to the people who are found, through the CCTV system, to have engaged in antisocial or other forms of behaviour on the buses? Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: I think the question is what happens with the follow-up of the downloaded images. Hon LJILJANNA RAVLICH: Yes, what is the follow-up on what is downloaded from the CCTV?

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Mr Waldock: Typically, and as a requirement, any of these major incidents or assaults are reported to the police. The police make a judgement on whether they want to follow it up. If they do follow it up, they would immediately, as a matter of course, seek CCTV footage, and we would provide that as a matter of course. Hon LJILJANNA RAVLICH: How many incidents are followed up by the police? Would the PTA keep figures or would the police keep figures? Mr Waldock: I am not sure, but we can check on that. Hon LJILJANNA RAVLICH: Could you give us the follow-up figures in each of the categories requested by Hon Ken Travers on how many have been dealt with and taken to the next level by the police? Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: Madam Chair, we are keen to assist the committee in any way and, if we can, we certainly will. We will go away and examine that question as supplementary information. I fear, though, that we may have to return to ask that the question be directed to the police; however, we will attempt to tackle it in good faith. If we can obtain it from the police, we will provide it directly to the committee. In terms of protections for bus drivers, the cameras are not an immediate protection; they are a follow-up device. CCTV is used in a range of circumstances, not just on board a Transperth bus. When we have a serious situation that most definitely needs follow-up—for example, an assault with a weapon on a passenger or someone on a bus—that is the sort of thing for which the police can get access to those images in real time to do some follow-up. That, of course, is necessary in carrying out enforcement activities as a follow-up to that sort of criminal activity. Conversely, an incident where someone has their feet on the seat might be noted, but it is not the sort of thing that would be the subject of necessarily CCTV review and referral to the police. I hope there is not an expectation that every incident will be referred to the police, even though they might be recorded. The CHAIR: I want to note that the supplementary information that will be provided is A6. [Supplementary Information No A6.] Hon LJILJANNA RAVLICH: I understand the point that the minister is making. If the minister wanted to effect a change in behaviour, one would expect that the police would act on a significant number of these 1 228 cases. It is a fair enough question to ask what does happen and to be able, from my point of view, to satisfy myself that these things are not falling between the cracks with these two departments. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: The member can be reassured that it is not a case of falling between the cracks and being disregarded. I want to confer with my agency head briefly, if I may, because I might be able to add some more information. chai: Yes. [10.45 am] Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: I know you probably wish to move on, Madam Chair, but I guess on that theme of appropriate response for the severity of an offence, I do not know if the member is trying to construct a scenario whereby if every case of antisocial behaviour of one sort or another is not followed up by the police, that we are somehow failing in duty. I want to make it quite clear that that is not the case. There is an appropriate response. Some matters need to be referred to the police. Others included in these stats, and I think everyone is well aware of in the bus sector, are that we are reporting elements, even though they may have been fixed on the spot. For example, a driver might caution a young person behaving rudely to another passenger to stop that, or you might even have a case in which someone might even be put off the bus if they are behaving badly. But it would still be noted as the driver—that there was some sort of incident of antisocial behaviour. So there are matters of degree. I assure you that the bus companies themselves want to maintain a good

Estimates and Financial Operations Tuesday, 28 July 2009 - Session One Page 14 environment for their passengers. Their drivers are all professionals, and they take it seriously as well. They want to provide as pleasant an environment on the buses for other passengers as can be obtained, so they will deal with certain low-level behaviours on the spot. Therefore, it is not a deficiency if everything is not referred to the police. The CHAIR: I might indicate to everybody that we will be taking a break at 11 o’clock. We will take a five-minute health and safety break for those who would like to stretch their legs. Hon KEN TRAVERS: I note that you did not have the specific figures, but is the CEO able to give us any indication of whether there has been an increase in the level of assaults and rock throwing and vandalism graffiti on the trains, metro buses or regional town bus services? Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: You are asking whether there has been an increase in those — Hon KEN TRAVERS: No, I have asked whether the CEO can give us an indication of whether he is aware anecdotally of increases in those areas. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: I will ask the CEO to respond if he knows anecdotally of any increases. I do not know over what period or — Hon KEN TRAVERS: He maybe can give us the — Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: Are you addressing the question to me or the gallery? Hon KEN TRAVERS: No, I am addressing it to the CEO, actually. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: You address it to me. Hon KEN TRAVERS: I am addressing it to the CEO. We put it through you as a courtesy, minister. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: I am quite happy to receive any courtesy that is on offer. The CHAIR: Very wise, minister, let me say—very wise. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: A precious commodity that I always receive in full from your committee, and very much appreciated it is, too. The CHAIR: Mr Waldock, would you like to have some courtesy as well? Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: Mr Waldock, would you like to respond on my behalf, please? Mr Waldock: It is just too courteous; I am not comfortable! Just to respond, it is not just anecdotally, rock throwing at buses has increased. The figures the minister mentioned earlier regarding those two years in fact showed a 30.46 per cent increase during those two years of comparison. So we are seeing an increase, and I am certain that that is still maintaining, because we have actually had, as you know, in the last three months, I think, significant public events that are happening regarding rock throwing. I must say in the trains it is not a significant issue. Often with the trains during school holidays we see a jump, but it has not been significant. In fact, I have a safety meeting today with my executive, and we go through those stats. But, to my knowledge, we actually have not seen a significant increase in trains. In terms of country services, in many of your questions regarding assaults and all these, the country is a totally different profile from the metropolitan area. We just do not see the same sort of trends. Hon KEN TRAVERS: Has there been an increase in country towns? Mr Waldock: Not to our knowledge. What we can do—again, we have contractors in those areas. Certainly, I will review those figures. Hon KEN TRAVERS: But there are still incidents in country towns. Mr Waldock: There are incidents everywhere. Hon KEN TRAVERS: My next question is: did we recently provide some additional buses to the Geraldton bus town service from Perth—low-floor buses?

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Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: Madam Chair, I will ask Mr Waldock to address that question on the TransGeraldton bus service. Mr Waldock: Yes, we did. We are working with Geraldton. As we changed, the previous contractor was unable to continue, and we have actually purchased that depot, and we have also used our own buses. Some of those buses were in fact the diesel fleet, the 405s, so they are low- floor buses as well. So we tried to put a balance there. So, to answer your question, yes. Hon KEN TRAVERS: Can you explain to me why the security equipment was taken out of those buses before they were sent to Geraldton? Mr Waldock: I am not aware that security equipment was taken out. In fact, what we did, Geraldton became the second city in Australia but the first regional city in Australia to actually have SmartRider technology. Hon KEN TRAVERS: I am talking about the security as in CCTV cameras. Mr Waldock: I would need to take it on—I was not aware of that. Potentially, it may be because they have not got the technology to download it, but I will check that. I do not know. Hon KEN TRAVERS: My understanding is that the seven buses that you have sent to Geraldton have the casings for it, but the actual CCTV cameras and all the back-up equipment has been removed from those buses, which I just find extraordinary. Mr Waldock: You are better informed than I am potentially, but I will check — Hon KEN TRAVERS: That is a worry. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: It certainly is. Mr Waldock: It is a significant worry. [Supplementary Information No A7.] Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: We will provide a supplementary answer. However, I would urge members not to jump to conclusions. One of the key themes that has emerged from the hearings today is the commitment by the PTA to provide the appropriate and useful equipment to provide the best, safest, most secure environment for its passengers and drivers. That is no less the case in somewhere like Geraldton, so if there has been some modification, for example, for equipment compatibility, or something has been removed, one should not jump to conclusions that somehow security has been thrown out the window. I would also urge members and anyone else observing these proceedings that it can sometimes send a very bad message if there is comment put out publicly about cameras not being on buses where they should be, or whatever. I am sure that will not happen. But I do make the point that it would be pointless to say, “We’ve got a security mechanism here. Let’s just remove it for the sake of it.” That is not the way the PTA operates, and I am sure that you will find in due course that the answer provided through you, Madam Chair, to the member will be satisfactory. If the member is in Geraldton at any time, I would be more than happy to facilitate a visit to the TransGeraldton depot. I have been there myself a few times. But we will provide an answer to that separately. Hon KEN TRAVERS: I appreciate your courtesy, minister, and I look forward to it. The CHAIR: Hon Ken Travers—sorry—I am just going to give another member the call, because we have spent quite a lot of time on the safety side. I am sure we will come back, because we have another hour after the break. Hon LIZ BEHJAT: I just want to move to a different area actually—page 438, “Outcomes and Key Effectiveness Indicators”. I am particularly interested in the line item “Accessible Public Transport”, where it states —

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The proportion of street addresses within the Perth Public Transport Area which are within 500 metres of a Transperth stop providing an acceptable level of service … My questions in this regard are—you may be able to give me perhaps just an overview today. You probably will not have the exact figures, and I am happy for you to take it on notice. But I would like you to give me some more information on how you arrived at these figures. Was it done by a survey? How many people were surveyed and over what period of time? Where was that undertaken? In particular, the definition of “an acceptable level of service” is what I would be keen to know about, and also any information that you might have in relation to using smaller vehicles more frequently as feeders into train stations. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: I thank the member for her interest in this area. She has asked a range of related questions, and we can in fact field them on the spot, I think. Those questions relate to—I think you are inviting some discussion on the 500-metre aspect, the definition of “acceptable level of service”, which I will ask the CEO to discuss in a moment, but he will do so in relation to frequencies and what have you. The other key question was about the possible use—this is a perennial one that comes up, and I am glad you have asked it because it is worth repeating. It is about why not use small buses—minibuses or something like that—for off-peak suburban routes rather than the big buses. Reece, can you discuss that, please? Hon LIZ BEHJAT: Or even at on-peak. Mr Waldock: Certainly. Let us do both questions separately. The first question is the issue of accessibility. We do this in a fairly, I guess, rough sense, and it is not survey based. We just use our GPS systems. Transperth is all based on GPS. All the buses have GPS. But what we do in terms of our land GPS, we actually, first of all, understand what that 500 metres would be from any individual house and what public transport they could access. Secondly, while we ask 500 metres— and the research is changing on this—but 500 metres is what we would class as a sensible pedshed for people to walk. In fact, the research shows more recently that in trains that maybe it is moving up towards one kilometre. People are prepared to walk further for a train than they would for a bus, partly because the services are better as well. So I guess the definition of that is certainly 500 metres, based on a reasonable pedshed. What is an acceptable level of service? I think that you could argue this, but I think that definition is based on a one-hourly service. Hon LIZ BEHJAT: One-hourly? Mr Waldock: One-hourly service, yes. Hon LIZ BEHJAT: Even in peak hour? Mr Waldock: Yes. I think the way we do it, we just look at the areas and say which areas have— the worst service would be every hour, and what that would capture. Clearly, we all understand that higher frequencies mean happier customers and more customers, but as we would all understand, it is a matter of resourcing. In terms of the second question—this has been a perennial question, as the minister mentioned—about small buses, it is an issue that we will continue to consider, and we have. We have actually got two sizes of buses now. There are the CAT buses in the city, and they are a smaller chassis-ed Mercedes. It is the same bus, but we push the chassis in, and it is about 1.3 metres shorter. But I guess the argument is small buses versus long buses. Whilst we will continue to review that, the reality is, as we know in public transport, that our whole fleet, our whole operations, right or wrong, but it is reality, are geared around the peak. In other words, we want and need to carry as many people during the peak as we possibly can, with maximum flexibility. That is the business we are in, because in any city in the world, but Perth is probably as good as any we have, there are enormous peaks when people go to work and come home, and then during the day and after hours it drops substantially. As you can appreciate, the cost of running buses, when you look at the variable cost of running buses—slightly more than half the total cost of running a bus is with the driver. So I guess you have two issues there. If you run a smaller fleet to

Estimates and Financial Operations Tuesday, 28 July 2009 - Session One Page 17 manage to meet the same sort of demand, you need more drivers, which is a high cost, but, secondly, you need more buses. So it is that balance; it is understanding how we best meet the community needs within a finite allocation of dollars—funds. [11.00 am] I think we will still continue, and in fact perhaps some of the trends will be that we will be going for those major corridors and articulated buses. In fact I have just been to Europe where there are double-articulated buses, almost rail-like buses, on some key corridors where the loadings are huge, and people do complain. Even now with the Morley corridor there are lots of issues of overcrowding of buses. Certainly there probably will be, as we get a little bit better and smarter, an opportunity for perhaps smaller buses as feeder buses for railway stations. But again I am a little bit cautious about even saying that, because whilst the feeder buses and railway stations like Murdoch station, as we moved to rail a year and a half ago, were not that busy, there has just been a whole transformation of people’s behaviours. All of a sudden now over 60 per cent of people going to the city via Murdoch actually catch a bus as a feeder bus. So we have got to be very careful about undersizing our fleet and finding out that it is happening. We have seen an enormous patronage growth both in buses and rail this year again. We do not want to undersize our fleet and wish we had actually kept more of a large-bus profile. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: I might just add to that. One of the other things that we have been able to do through having that excess capacity off-peak is introduce the program of free travel for seniors and disability pension holders off-peak, which has been very well received. Just having that capacity there has allowed us to do that and it has provided a new range of freedom for a lot of people. We are constantly receiving good feedback about it. The take-up rate has been quite extraordinary really, and it reinforces earlier sentiments that we had about encouraging people to use public transport by making it accessible in one way or another. Making it accessible is not only about adjustable flooring buses that perhaps enable wheelchair access, but also about pricing. So that is one benefit of having that extra capacity off-peak. Mr Waldock: In fact it has been better than that. We have actually been able to move some of those peak people again by managing that high demand and moving them out to the shoulders. There have been a substantial number of seniors and pensioners that have moved from peak to off-peak to take advantage of the free travel. So we are actually managing the demand, I think, a little bit better and, as the minister said, we have actually seen something like an 80 per cent increase in seniors and pensioners travel during the off-peak. Proceedings suspended from 11.02 to 11.10 am Hon KEN TRAVERS: I have just a couple of quick questions to finish off on security issues and then I have other ones to go on to. Can you tell me when the last increase was in the number of bus security hours under the contract with Wilson Security and how many additional hours it was? Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: The question, as I interpreted it, was: when was there last an increase in bus security hours? The most up-to-date information I have is from 1 June this year. I understand members are trying to get a feel for what is out there and you do not necessarily want me to go into obscure detail; you just want totals. The number of man hours applied in the week of 1 June this year was 1 968. On 1 September last year it was 1 941. Prior to that the total combined hours on, say, 1 March last year was 1 723. So from, say, 1 March last year until the present there has been an increase of 1 720-odd to about 1 970-odd hours per week. However, again I would caution the committee to be a little bit careful how they interpret that. It is an overall increase and it is a significant one but, of course, that is the total of hours applied to static patrols, mobile patrols and activities in different regions which may have been altered to reflect greater emphasis on the Armadale line—sorry, a particular area or whatever. Anyway, these are the figures.

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Hon KEN TRAVERS: Is that just PTA funded or does that include the private bus companies’ contribution? Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: That is total. Hon KEN TRAVERS: So that is PTA and total. Are you able to tell me whether or not that increase is paid for by the individual bus companies or whether it is an increase in budget for the PTA? Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: A portion of it is provided by the bus companies. The significant portion of the security is provided by the PTA. The bus companies themselves do provide some additional hours—top-up, if you like—for certain activities. Hon KEN TRAVERS: Is there any provision in this year’s budget for an increase in security on the buses? Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: The simple question was: has there been any increase in provision for security services? I am just getting some advice from the CFO to see if we can provide a little more detail on that. The actual amounts, of course, are contained in the broader budgetary items. If I could draw your attention, for example, to page 437 of the budget and if we look at the service summary, the costs of everything, of course, are embedded in that grand total of $689 million and then some. Hon KEN TRAVERS: That is why we have estimates, to try to get into the detail, minister. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: Indeed, and that is what I am trying to do. So I do not think we have got to hand the exact amount for that discrete element available. What I am assured — Hon KEN TRAVERS: But is there a provision for an increase in the budget? Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: What I am aware of is that there is certainly no decrease, and there is the increase in line with the normal cost escalation or inflation. Hon KEN TRAVERS: I have not asked that yet. I am asking about an increase in the number of hours, not an increase in the costs, because costs are going to go up with wages and the rest of it. What I am asking for is whether there is a provision in the budget to increase the number of hours provided for bus security. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: I misheard you. I thought you asked whether there was provision in the budget for an increase in security. Hon KEN TRAVERS: Bus security hours. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: In hours? The CHAIR: Just to clarify it, minister, would it be useful to take that as supplementary? Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: The answer to the question of whether there is such a provision in the budget for extra hours is no. If you look at the budget papers that is not what is dealt with there. Whether or not any extra hours, as opposed to other security measures that are provided as part of an overall budget sub-item, I cannot tell you. There might well be, and some of that may become apparent during the course of the year as priorities are re-allocated in accordance with a previous answer given by Mr Waldock when he indicated that we have to be flexible and responsive in terms of how we allocate our patrols or what have you. [11.15 am] Hon KEN TRAVERS: Yes, except that your train patrols cannot be allocated to buses because you run separate systems. I refer to page 439, “customer perception of safety”. For bus station night- time, you are decreasing your target from 68 per cent to 65 per cent, and for on-board bus night- time, you are decreasing your target from 83 per cent to 80 per cent. Can you explain why you are decreasing those targets?

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Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: Mr Waldock may have something to add to this, but from my clear reading of this provision in the budget papers—if the member had misunderstood this, I am glad he has highlighted it so that we can point it out to him—the estimated out turn for customer perception of safety, bus station night-time, is predicted to come in at 64 per cent. That is for 2008-09. For this budget, 2009-10, we want to improve on that, so 65 per cent has been allocated for that. That is not a decrease. That is an improvement. Hon KEN TRAVERS: What about the next column? Last year you were aiming for 68 per cent. Now you are only going to aim for 65 per cent, minister. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: What we are doing is aiming for an improvement. Hon KEN TRAVERS: So if you get less than your target this year, you will decrease your target again, will you? Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: No. The member is being mischievous. If I could be allowed to answer the question please, Chair — Hon KEN TRAVERS: No. You are just trying to put a spin on it. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: Okay. Well, I will respond to that as well, to the extent that I think it might assist the committee in getting to the truth and avoiding the spin. In relation to the second item that the member mentioned, on-board bus night-time, the actual result for 2008 was 78 per cent. For this budget, which is what we are talking about, our target is 80 per cent. That is an improvement. If we can go back—members might want to follow this so that they can work out who is trying to spin these figures and who is not—the 2007-08 actual turn out for the bus station night-time category was 63 per cent. The budget for 2008-09 was 68 per cent, but what was achieved was 64 per cent; so we went from 63 per cent to 64 per, and we are now looking at 65 per cent. So where does the 68 per cent come into it that the member is using to claim that there has been some sort of failure on the part of the PTA? Well, the 68 per cent is what the previous government, as the author of the 2008-09 budget, was shooting for. The actual out turn shows how far wrong it got it. So we are still shooting for an improvement, in the same way that the PTA has achieved a slight improvement over each of those years. But we are not going to look at it with the rose-coloured glasses of the drafters of the previous government’s last budget, which as we can see is the one that has fallen short—and that is what the member should be criticising if he really wants to split hairs about these things. The point is that we are not shooting for a lower target than what has been achieved in the previous year in either of those categories. Indeed, in both those categories there has been an improvement, although only a slight improvement, over 2007-08. Hon PHILIP GARDINER: I refer to page 440, service 1, metropolitan and regional passenger services. I have a few questions about the economics of some of this. The minister may be able to either correct me or support what I think I am reading here. In the table “Total Cost of Service”, the budget target for 2009-10 is $689.928 million. The budget target for “Net Cost of Service” is $547.117 million, the difference being revenue of $142.811 million. Am I correct in understanding that that is a subsidy of 80.7 per cent that the government is providing for public transport services in the city, or for whatever region that is defined by? Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: Of course this service indicator is for both metropolitan and regional passenger services. Hon PHILIP GARDINER: Sorry, but I think regional is covered in service 2. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: So you are looking at regional? Hon PHILIP GARDINER: No. I am looking at them separately. Service 1 is metropolitan and regional passenger services. Okay. It does say that. However, service 2 is country passenger rail and road coach services.

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Hon KEN TRAVERS: The first one is regional town bus services, and the second one is intercity bus services. Hon PHILIP GARDINER: Okay. I think I have the explanation now. So the top table for regional, I guess, is for Kalgoorlie, Geraldton, Bunbury and Albany? Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: Yes. Mr Waldock: And school buses. Hon PHILIP GARDINER: So school buses are included as well? I thought they were separate. That is on page 441, service 3, regional school bus services. Let me get to the point of my question, which is the extent of the subsidy. So we may have to take out the metropolitan school bus part of that, and then the regional buses. The reason I am asking this question is that I see serious implications in the future when we are talking about regional rail and regional road for freight and so on. We will then need to come back to how we will be able to fully cost this, because it will need to be fully costed at some point. We will need to understand what the subsidies really are in a fully costed way, including for carbon emissions trading. That will have implications for the price of parking in the city if we are to try to recover more of the costs. What I am suggesting is that the cost that we are recovering is about 19.3 per cent based on the numbers here. I presume I am right in saying that that is the only recovery we have currently. Is there any way that you can see of increasing that cost recovery, or are we going to have to live with that subsidy in the future? Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: The member has asked some global questions about each of these service items. For the first one—metropolitan and regional passenger services—metropolitan passenger services involves all our Perth public transport buses, passenger trains and ferries, and regional passenger services involves what we would call the town-based bus services. In there is also the metropolitan school buses—the orange buses. Service 2 is the Transwa services—the passenger rail services such as the Prospector and so on—and all the road coach services. Service 3 is the regional school bus services. That is the vast majority of the orange school buses, not including the ones that are provided for special-needs children in the metropolitan area. Service 4 is beyond the subject of the member’s question—that is rail corridor management and so on. The member’s question is basically that there is a level of subsidy here, and are we proposing to chase greater cost recovery. [11.30 am] The current level of metro subsidy is around 78 per cent, and the figures are here in the budget. This is our budget and so therefore that level of subsidy is our policy at this time. If we look at the out years that are provided in the budget, we will see that there is no proposal for a radical change by this government. I think that directly answers the broad question. May I just add something before I ask Mr Waldock to make some observations? I know he can assist the member greatly on this. When one considers the amount of subsidy that is applied to public transport, and whether or not that high level of subsidy has merit or not, there are a few other things we need to factor in, and I think successive governments have. Firstly, we have to recognise that if we are going to have a public transport system, we have to accept that it will be subsidised; the people who use it will be receiving a subsidy, and that is the case all over the world. The only one that I am aware of that comes remotely close around here is the South Perth ferry system, which goes pretty darn close to achieving cost recovery, so unless we can get all of our millions of boardings to get on the South Perth ferry, we are not going to make a profit. Hon PHILIP GARDINER: And the water is free! Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: And the water is free; that is a very good point the member makes. When one considers the subsidy, we can look at these bare figures and say, “All right, metro, that’s a 78 per cent subsidy,” but there are some other hidden costs there that we have to work out or factor in as well. I know that the member will be across this. What would happen if we did not have this public transport system with the costs and subsidies that are involved? What would be the other

Estimates and Financial Operations Tuesday, 28 July 2009 - Session One Page 21 costs that would accrue or conversely, how much are we saving in other areas—road construction and so on—if we do not have this? I think that in any consideration of the amount of subsidy— whether it is too much or too little—we have to be aware of those wider issues. I know that Mr Waldock has some views on this that might be helpful to the member. Mr Waldock: I am thinking about the New South Wales experience on two fronts. There is a bus company in New South Wales, the Sydney Transit Authority, which works far more on business principles. It fully prices every bum on the seat; in other words, even if a passenger is a concession passenger, a 50c student passenger—which is a fairly new innovation—or a senior or a pensioner who travels for free, everybody is actually charged the full fare to understand in terms of raw cost recovery what they would be getting if there were no policy distortions. I am sure our figure would move from 78 per cent to a much lower figure if that happened, given that the majority of our customers are in fact concession passengers. The best research I have seen on this in recent times was from the IPART, the Independent Pricing and Regulatory Tribunal in New South Wales. It looked at bodies such as RailCorp in New South Wales and asked, “What should be a reasonable cost recovery for that,” given that the minister has indicated not just the social issue but the whole externality issue—safety, the environment, congestion and health. There are a whole range of externalities and if we did not have this, what would happen to the system? IPART has surprisingly come up with about the same figure as we are working at—it found that around 80 per cent is appropriate. It is interesting; different people have looked at it. It sounds terrible when the media talks about it, but Hong Kong is probably the only public transport system in the world that gets pretty close to breaking even. The vast majority of the profits there come from value capture, because the government develops buildings over the rail stations and becomes the landlord as well. It is a tough business in which to break even. Hon PHILIP GARDINER: I understand. That is another strategic development that could take place in our system if we were to sink the rail line underground, because we could also put things on top; perhaps not as high. Mr Waldock: That is true. It is expensive, though. Hon PHILIP GARDINER: I understand that there is another fee for parking in Perth. Have you built that into your expectations of increased usage of public transport so that those people who might be parking might not be going there as often? Mr Waldock: I think that is an excellent question. I am looking at what is happening around Australia now in terms of public transport demand and it is a bit mixed. Victoria has come off an all-time high double-digit growth, particularly in the rail system. It is flattening out now. I know that public transport is dropping in London. That is very much price related, because it is pretty expensive and discretionary trips are down because of the recession. Victoria is going down, too. Interestingly enough, when I look at our system and try to do an analysis of future demand, I have to say that there are some pressures that will be pushing us down, but at the same time there are some issues such as car park pricing that will be an elasticity issue for demand. We think that overall the future is looking pretty bullish for us, and in fact I am sure that the parking levy will assist public transport in terms of our patronage demand. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: I will just add to that. One of the ways that figures are arrived at in any exercise such as the one we are undertaking now for service provision is that we look at the total cost of providing the service, divide it by the number of utilisations—boardings, in this case—and that gives us a figure for cost per service. That is valid, but if we are looking at the question of additional services being provided, we have extra capacity coming onstream through new railcars, for example. That is going to be happening anyway, and those costs—virtually the totality of it— will be accruing anyway, so that will alter the mix slightly. Any extra take-up of our capacity is actually a good thing, because in effect it is basically for free on top of the subsidy that has already been provided. Of course, those people are paying fares, so it helps mitigate in those ways. It is a bit

Estimates and Financial Operations Tuesday, 28 July 2009 - Session One Page 22 of a moveable feast, and we can look at it from a number of angles; it is important that governments do, because the things that are really important are not only about the fact that there is a bus on the road, it is what it means, as Mr Waldock said, in terms of congestion, quality of life, pollution levels, roads and things like that. It all has to be factored in, and we have the balance that is reflected in this year’s budget. Hon PHILIP GARDINER: I thank the minister for that answer. I appreciate the emissions calculation in this particular answer to the question. Hon ALISON XAMON: I actually have two questions that follow up on my colleague’s previous question. One is in regard to the asset investment program on page 442. I understand that on estimates annual day, the PTA was to prepare a plan for how it was going to propose to use the increase in revenue associated with the increase in the state government fees, which are going to be charged to commercial parking providers. Has the plan been prepared, minister? Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: No, I am not able to produce any plan at this time. Hon ALISON XAMON: Are you able to indicate when that plan is likely to be produced? You referred to the plan in Hansard on that day. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: I beg your pardon? Hon ALISON XAMON: You referred to a plan being produced on that day. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: Which day? Hon ALISON XAMON: It was in Hansard; it was Thursday, 18 June, in reply to a question asked by my colleague Hon Ken Travers. He raised this issue and you indicated that a plan would be put together as to how those moneys would be spent. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: Yes, and that is still the case. I have asked the PTA to provide me with information. Hon ALISON XAMON: I have asked when that might be available. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: Yes, I am trying to work out when! Madam Chair, I am trying to assist the member as best I can. I have information proposals coming to me from a number of sources. The one that I referred to in the previous hearing is just one of those that have been requested and yes, that information is being consolidated. My difficulty in saying when I will be able to say to the member or the committee, “Right, there’s the plan,” is that some, if not all, of this information will actually be subject to a cabinet submission and cabinet approval. At face value it would seem a simple question, and fair enough. I am unable to do that because I cannot indicate when cabinet will tick off or otherwise on that matter, but I am still pursuing it through my agency. I do not have the plan to provide the member, because it is subject to cabinet approval, and I cannot give her the exact date for the same reason. Hon KEN TRAVERS: And you have to consult with the City of Perth, too. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: There are a whole range of processes to go through, yes. Hon ALISON XAMON: I am going to try another tack on a question on notice asked in the lead- up to estimates day. I perhaps was after a different answer, so I will ask the question slightly differently. Is there any economic annual planning modelling used to support decisions about the amount of funding that is allocated to public transport as distinct from roads—which I think follows on from the broad points that the minister raised—either in a specific year or over a number of years on the government’s proposed 20-year public transport plan? Perhaps the answer is in there, but I am specifically interested in whether there are any ratios of spending on public transport and roads, particularly in relation to new developments. Is there any modelling that you use? Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: A lot of the planning that the member is referring to is subsumed by the 2031 project announced by Minister Day quite recently. I think perhaps the question would be more

Estimates and Financial Operations Tuesday, 28 July 2009 - Session One Page 23 appropriately put to the Minister for Planning; I am not aware of any such ratio, no. It is something that could be measured, but I do not know that it is the yardstick from which we commence. Hon ALISON XAMON: It certainly exists in other cities and other countries and the like. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: It is basically a planning matter that I am not able to assist the member with at this time. Hon ALISON XAMON: Regarding the last two paragraphs of “Significant Issues Impacting the Agency” on page 437, I refer again to a question without notice asked by my colleague Hon Ken Travers on 3 June, to which the minister answered that the PTA would purchase 78 new buses in 2008-09, 79 in 2009-10 and 34 in 2010-11. Based on that answer, I am wondering what the justification is for cutting the annual new bus purchases in 2010-11 to less than half the annual level. I am concerned that with the impact of climate change on people and unemployment, that perhaps the demand for new buses will actually be on the increase rather than decrease. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: Where is the actual detail? I know the member has referred to some discussion points. Hon ALISON XAMON: I did. Again, it was Wednesday, 3 June, under “Public Transport Authority — New Buses”. Hon Ken Travers asked the minister how many new buses the PTA intended to purchase in each of those years. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: So this was a question in the house or something, was it? The CHAIR: Yes, a question in the house. I wonder whether the member should provide the minister with that question. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: No, I think I recall it. That does not matter; the facts speak for themselves. Back in 1999, I think from memory, in former Minister Criddle’s day in the time of the Court government, a contract was entered into for the purchase of those buses over a period. A new bus contract has not yet been entered into. In the out year referred to by the member, the reason for the figure being about half is that it will be about halfway through that year that the previous contract will run out. [11.45 am] I can tell you that that is a matter of further buses; and, yes, we do need further buses. There is a question of the aging of the fleet and making sure that that is consistent. They are questions that the government is addressing at this time and I look forward to finalising those matters that have been in hand for some time, but they are not reflected in this year’s budget because the contracts that the government decides on have not been entered into. Hon ALISON XAMON: I have a follow-up question just quickly. The last question in relation to that is: what percentage of these new buses are actually replacing the existing vehicles, as opposed to increasing the service levels? Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: Are we talking about the ones coming on this year? Hon ALISON XAMON: Yes, and the following years. I am basically trying to figure out whether there is any anticipated increase and how much that is likely to be. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: The question is how many of the buses that will be delivered this year are simply replacing buses that are going out of service, and thereby providing a younger age for the total fleet, and how many are additional capacity. I think we will take that on notice. The vast majority would be renewable of the fleet; that is, replacing old buses going out of service, but we will get the exact figure and provide that on notice. [Supplementary Information No A8.]

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Hon KEN TRAVERS: Following on from that, a number of the questions asked were ones that I was also going to ask. You obviously expect that there will be a new contract issued to continue on from the existing contract for bus replacements and additional buses. I note the CEOs mentioned earlier that you have fairly bullish demand projections and you also have overcrowding on a number of routes into the northern suburbs. When do you expect a decision to be made on that new bus contract? Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: It is subject to cabinet processes. It will be up to cabinet as to when it makes those decisions. I cannot tell you the exact date. Hon KEN TRAVERS: Do you expect it to be about replacing—again following the same line—the existing fleet so you maintain the oldest bus being 16 or 18 years old, or is it actually about meeting the bullish demand figures that we have for the use of public transport? Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: It is about a number of things. It is about those two things you mentioned. It is also about making sure that we maintain an average age of the bus fleet so that you avoid the peaks and troughs that we have sometimes seen in other decades whereby you have a large part of the fleet suddenly — Hon KEN TRAVERS: I had to drive a Leyland B52. I will not go into what that was like. I know about the problems of old buses. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: They are all considerations and they are part of active cabinet consideration at this time. Hon KEN TRAVERS: Minister, are you aware of the concerns in the bus manufacturing industry that if the contract is not put out to tender in the very near future, the ability to maintain an ongoing bus production facility in Western Australia is compromised? Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: I am in constant and frequent contact with those who are involved in that operation. I am well aware of their need for continuity. Hon KEN TRAVERS: So you will have a decision. The next one is the line item under “new works”, the extension of the new northern suburbs railway line to Butler. I note that the construction of that is due to commence in 2011-12. Can you give us a date for when you expect that line to be completed? Page 444, the last item under “new works”. The CHAIR: Minister. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: Thank you, Madam Chair. Again, as the member would appreciate, this is just one of many projects that is subject to cabinet consideration that I cannot pre-empt. However, in terms of what is in the budget, you can anticipate commissioning of the works towards the end of 2014. Hon KEN TRAVERS: Sorry? Commissioning? Starting? The budget talks about it starting in 2011-12. If you look at page 442, it says that construction is due to commence in 2011-12. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: Yes, that is right. That is when construction is due to commence. I am talking about full commissioning. That is what I was referring to. Perhaps you did not hear me. The commencing date, hopefully, is in the last quarter of 2014. Hon KEN TRAVERS: Right. Can you confirm that that project includes two stations— one at Butler and one at Brighton? Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: Consideration of the number of stations, the route, the need for enabling legislation, the need for extra power supply and a whole range of other considerations are all part of the submission that I have put to cabinet. Of course, I cannot pre-empt cabinet’s ultimate decision, but certainly there will be a rail line going to Brighton, and a decision on the number of stations is something that is yet to be finally determined. The reason it is yet to be finally determined is that it makes a difference in terms of expenditure, and that is something that I cannot pre-empt.

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Hon KEN TRAVERS: So the master planning for it has not been complete. Is that what you are saying? Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: The master planning to — Hon KEN TRAVERS: For an extension to Brighton has not been completed. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: No. Hon KEN TRAVERS: So the scope of the project is still to be determined? Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: I have already indicated that there are parts of this project that are still the subject of the cabinet decision-making process. That ties my hands a bit in terms of what I can discuss, not only from a confidentiality point of view, but simply because decisions have not been made. What we do have before us, though, is what is in the budget and the actual dollars committed in accordance with that budget document. We will be going ahead with the project. Some of the fine detail about the dates and so on is—I am sorry I cannot assist you more at this time, but I certainly will in due course and we will make it public as soon as we possibly can. Hon KEN TRAVERS: I understand that there has been an announcement that the money that is owed to the City of Wanneroo for the Hester Avenue bridge is to be repaid immediately. Can you identify where in the budget the money for that appears, and the amount that you intend to repay? Mr Waldock: We have paid it. Hon KEN TRAVERS: You have paid it? Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: The money has been paid, and that was prior to 30 June. As you can see from a perusal of the budget papers, this is not the sort of thing that is necessarily identified as a separate line item but it is part of the total of line 1. Hon KEN TRAVERS: Hang on; line 1 or line 1 for last year? I got the impression then that it was paid before 30 June. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: Sorry, let me restate it: service item 1; and, yes, it was paid before 30 June. It is part of the overall project cost in that sense but it is not the subject of this year’s budget because, as the member rightly points out, it was paid before 30 June. Hon KEN TRAVERS: My next question is: I wanted to refer to the South Perth railway station that was previously funded for in the budget and, again, I seek an explanation for why that has been removed from the budget. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: Quite simply, it was a government decision to defer that project and the reasons for that deferral were in consideration of other demands on the budget, not the least of which being, of course, the deteriorating budget position brought about by external factors outside of our control. Priorities have to be arrived at and determined, and that includes tough decisions, and this is one of them. When considering the relative merits of this and other projects at this time, the government made a decision to defer it. Hon KEN TRAVERS: Was it an election commitment? I think the previous shadow Minister for Transport was a strong supporter of it. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: It was the previous Labor government that gave an undertaking to build a station at South Perth by 2010. My understanding is that that was in the context of the debate in the upper house — The CHAIR: It was. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: —where a request for that was made by Hon Jim Scott. The government—I do not want to bring politics into any of this, Madam Chair — The CHAIR: Surely not!

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Hon KEN TRAVERS: I can get the Hansards out of your comments when you were the shadow minister about your scepticism about the project being built on time. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: That was a scepticism that since has been vindicated — Hon KEN TRAVERS: By your own actions. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: — by the actions of the former government. It was put into the project— that is, the Mandurah rail project—as a possible future station. That was done as a sop to a smaller party in the upper house whose numbers were crucial to the passage — The CHAIR: A very important small party, minister! Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: A very important small party, containing some very distinguished, powerful people for whom I have a great deal of sympathy. You can understand that I was historically concerned to explore whether the previous government was dinkum about this or was just trying to fob you off. Therefore, I pushed the government with questions about what it was actually proposing to do or was it dinkum about doing it and so on, and I think that is what the honourable member has been referring to by interjection. The undertaking given by the previous government to build a station at South Perth by 2010 was subsequently deferred by the previous government itself until about 2013. Anyway, I have already answered the question as to how we have dealt with it. Given that the previous government dealt with boom times when they were so awash with cash budget surpluses that they did not know what to do with, they chose not to go down this path. The fact is that at the moment we do not have the wherewithal in the forward estimates to afford this particular project and that is why it is being deferred. I am not saying that it will never happen, but for this year’s budget, it certainly has been deferred in the forward estimates. [12 noon] Hon KEN TRAVERS: Minister, one last question then: can you explain to us what were the attributes of Roe Highway stage 8 that resulted in it being brought forward in funding whilst this South Perth railway station was cancelled? Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: The two have got nothing to do with each other. The government has many separate priorities — Hon KEN TRAVERS: You said that there was a shortage of funds, but you were able to find the funds for Roe Highway stage 8 to be brought forward. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: Quite clearly, there was an election. It was not this February; it was last September. It was awfully early. But in that election campaign, Madam Chair, we gave a clear commitment that we would seek to commence, that we would commence, construction of Roe Highway stage 8 in this first term of government. So, not surprisingly, that commitment was to be reflected in the budget. As an estimates committee, you are all, I am sure, as interested as Hon Ken Travers is in ensuring that our promises from the election were among the first things that were included — Hon KEN TRAVERS: It promises 20 million in the fourth year. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: — were included in the current budget. Now we have shown our commitment for the Roe Highway project and other projects that we deem as a priority, but if you stack this particular project up as a public transport priority, it would not rate very highly compared with other projects that we are going to proceed with. One of the constant themes I have noted in questions from your colleagues today has been a determination to ensure that we are getting value for money; that is, the taxpayer gets the best return that we can on the finite number of dollars that are available, and that is what we are seeking to do. So that is why, unfortunately, the South Perth train station just has fallen off that list of priorities. The CHAIR: Hon Philip Gardiner, and I will make this the last question as we are just chopping into our lunch hour or lunch half-hour. We will be on overtime shortly!

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Hon PHILIP GARDINER: There are three but we will make it down to two short questions, if I can, Madam Chair. The CHAIR: Yes, Hon Philip Gardiner. Hon PHILIP GARDINER: First of all, in relation to regional school buses and the concern out there with the additional traffic that may be on regional roads for the carting of grain and so on, am I correct in believing that all school buses now have seatbelts—all regional school buses now have seatbelts? Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: At this stage, I think the answer is no, they are not all equipped with seatbelts. However, there is a policy that has been in place for some time that all replacement school buses—that is, all new school buses—have seatbelts. So, it is a process that as the fleet is replaced, ultimately we will end up with that outcome. It should be complete, I believe, by the end of December 2015—that is, the complete retrofitting of the fleet. The vast majority of the buses out there now are already equipped, but there is still a—yes; the program that was put in place is proceeding in accordance with the timetable that was previously determined, and funding for that is being kept up, and that is the response to the question. Hon PHILIP GARDINER: A quick question on notice, if I can, Madam Chair: can we have a rough proportion of how much of the seats on school buses have seatbelts as opposed to those not with seatbelts? Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: If you can give me a moment, I will just formulate the answer to that if a rough idea is sufficient. Hon PHILIP GARDINER: Yes. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: At this stage, out of about—and these figures can change a little bit all the time as buses come on and off the run — Hon PHILIP GARDINER: Sure, I understand. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: — but out of around 692 of the rural orange school buses, I understand that perhaps around 400 or just under 400 now are fitted. The others will be fitted in—well, the replacements for the others will have seatbelts. Now, there are other factors that you could put in it because a school bus is not always a school bus. There are a number of different classes which we define by size and so on. So if you are talking about overall capacity—you know, per seat—that might well be a different question as well. Hon PHILIP GARDINER: Yes. No, it is just the potential, the possibility, for a disaster that we do not want to think about happening. A quick question: the balance sheet on page 447, the question is: there is $1.177 billion of borrowing under non-current liabilities—that is, borrowings of $1.77 billion about just over halfway down the page—but I could not see any interest cost or where the interest charge comes on that, and whether that is on the cost of the service that we are providing to the public or whether it is hidden somewhere else. Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: Yes, I think we might have to refer to a cash flow, rather than the balance sheet, but I will ask Mr King if he could respond, please. Hon PHILIP GARDINER: I could not see it on the cash flow, either. Hon KEN TRAVERS: Yes, under the act, cash flow is from financing — Hon SIMON O’BRIEN: Perhaps Mr King — Hon PHILIP GARDINER: Oh, cash flow is from financing? The CHAIR: Mr King.

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Mr King: Interest charges are brought to the operating statement of PTA rather than the balance sheet. Hon PHILIP GARDINER: Yes, I understand that. Mr King: If you turn to page — Hon PHILIP GARDINER: Cash flow from financing activities does not include interest; it is repayment of borrowings principal. Mr King: Unfortunately, we used to have a direct declaration of interest, but with the restructure of the presentation of the budget statements, it is now captured on page 446 under a heading “Total Cost of Services”—there is a heading just above that called “other expenses”. Other expenses incorporate the interest charges of the PTA. In round terms for those estimate periods, the cost is round the 57 million per year and — Hon PHILIP GARDINER: Yes; of that $71 million, that is roughly $57 million is the interest cost. Okay, I will check that in a minute just to see how that stacks up. Okay; thank you very much. The CHAIR: Thank you, member. Thank you for your attendance. We appreciate your attendance at the committee hearing. Members, will take a break for lunch and we will resume at a quarter to one. Hearing concluded at 12.07 pm.