NTLO YA DIKGOSI DEBATES

OFFICIAL REPORT - EIGHTH MEETING OF THE SECOND NTLO YA DIKGOSI 23 - 27 January 2012 THE PROCEEDINGS

of the

EIGHTH MEETING

of the

2nd NTLO YA DIKGOSI (Official Report)

Sitting from 23 - 27 January 2012

i NTLO YA DIKGOSI CHAIRMAN Kgosi Puso Gaborone Batlokwa DEPUTY CHAIRMAN Kgosi Lotlamoreng II Barolong MEMBERS Kgosi K. Boiditswe Serowe Region Kgosi I. Gaoonwe Letlhakeng Region Kgosi B. Garebakwena Molepolole Region Kgosi M. Kahiko III Ghanzi West Kgosi S. H. Kgamane Bangwato Kgosi Kgari III Bakwena Kgosi K. Lempadi Okavango Region Kgosi O. Machilidza Boteti Region Kgosi M. Malema Bobirwa Region Kgosi Malope II Bangwaketse Kgosi T. M. Masunga North East Kgosi M. Mmualefhe Chobe Region Kgosi A. O. Monnaathebe Thamaga Kgosi P. K. Montshiwa Kgalagadi North Kgosi K. Moremi Batawana Kgosi S. Moroka Tswapong Kgosi J. Moseki Ghanzi East Kgosi T. B. Ndzonga Tutume Kgosi B. Ramokone Kanye Kgosi K. Ramokwena Maun Kgosi E. Potsoeng Ngami Region Kgosi M. Seboko Balete Kgosi P. Seeletso Tonota Region Kgosi P. Sekwenyane Ngwaketse West Kgosi K. Telekelo Moshupa Kgosi T. F. Tshipe Mahalapye Region Kgosi Toto II Kgalagadi South Kgosi S. Esterhuizen Specially Elected Kgosi M. Moeti II Specially Elected Kgosi M. Seemeko Specially Elected Kgosi M. M. Sinvula Specially Elected Kgosi T. Xao Specially Elected ii Secretary : N. Thebe

Ass. Secretary : M. Moreri

Layout : Badisa M. Morue Bakang B. Khumanego Dennis Batshegi E. Dodkins

Edited by : A. B. Gaobotse E. Dodkins

Translated by : K. Nyanga K. Ben M. Kagiso B. Morakanyane

Typesetting : Hansard Reporters iii Table Of Contents

Chairman’s Remarks ...... 28, 73, 91, 142 Election of the Chairperson of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi ...... 1 Election of the Deputy Chairperson of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi ...... 2 Re-Election of Deputy Chairman ...... 5 Bills Local Government Bill, 2011 (No. 13 of 2011) ...... 7, 29, 30, 73, 92 Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2011 (No. 15 Of 2011) ...... 110, 135, 142, 155

iv Monday 23rd January, 2012 Election of the Chairperson of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi

Monday 23rd January, 2012 openly and Members raise their hands to indicate that they wish THE HOUSE met at 10 a.m. to make a nomination. Names of (THE CHAIRPERSON in the those who have been nominated, Chair) seconded, and confirmed will be P R A Y E R S written on the board. We will continue in this manner until * * * * Members have exhausted the names of the desired nominees ELECTION OF THE for the Chairperson’s post. I CHAIRPERSON OF NTLO will now give you a chance to YA DIKGOSI raise your hands and propose candidates for the Chairperson’s SECRETARY OF NTLO YA post. DIKGOSI (MS N. THEBE): Honourable Members, we will KGOSI KAHIKO III now proceed with the first item (GHANZI WEST REGION): on Today’s Order Paper, which Good morning Honourable is the election of the Chairperson Members, I would like to of Ntlo ya Dikgosi. Rule 3 (1) of propose Kgosi Puso Gaborone the Rules of Procedure provides for the Chairmanship of this for election and tenure of office House. of the Chairperson and Deputy Chairperson. At this juncture SECRETARY: Kgosi Puso Honourable Members, I will Gaborone has been nominated outline the Rules of Procedure by Kgosi Kahiko to stand as the of this House which guide the candidate for the Chair of this elections of the Chairperson. House, is there any seconder? According to our Rules, the Secretary of the House shall KGOSI SEEMEKO conduct the elections of the (SPECIALLY ELECTED): Chairperson. Every Member is Thank you Madam, I second the free to stand or to nominate any nomination. other Member to stand for the SECRETARY: Kgosi Gaborone, position of the Chairperson. A are you willing to stand for the nominee has to be seconded and elections? the nominated Member should agree that he/she will stand for KGOSI GABORONE: I do elections. Our nomination is done agree to stand.

1 Monday 23rd January, 2012 Election of the Deputy Chairperson of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi

SECRETARY: Honourable ELECTION OF THE Members, do you have any other DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON nominee for the Chairmanship? OF NTLO YA DIKGOSI

KGOSI LOTLAMORENG MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI II (BAROLONG): Thank you PUSO GABORONE): Madam Secretary, if this House Honourable Members of Ntlo ya agrees, I would propose that we Dikgosi, the Leader of this House, close the nominations for the His Honour the Vice President Chairperson of the House. Lt. Gen. Mompati Merafhe, Madam Speaker, Margaret SECRETARY: There is a Nnananyana Nasha, Cabinet proposal from Kgosi Lotlamoreng Ministers here present, your that we close the nominations for Excellencies Ambassadors/High the Chairperson of the House? Commissioners and Members Does the House agree? of Diplomatic Community, former Members of this House, Question put and agreed to. Dikgosi and all our distinguished SECRETARY: Are there any and invited guests, ladies and Members negating? I take it all gentlemen, good morning. have agreed. According to the We have just witnessed the Rules in the Second Schedule, if completion of the election of we have a nominated Member, Chairperson of this House. We who has been seconded, agreed shall now proceed with the election to stand for the elections and is of the Deputy Chairperson of unopposed, he/she becomes the the House and as it was earlier Chairperson of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi. on alluded to, the Chairperson We congratulate you, Kgosi shall be the one conducting Gaborone. the process of the election of HONOURABLE MEMBERS: the Deputy Chairperson as Applause! per Second Schedule of our Rules of Procedure. Honourable SECRETARY: We shall Members, we shall now proceed now take the newly elected into the election of the Deputy Chairperson out to go and Chairperson of this House. The robe, then he will come back Rules of Procedure of this house to conduct the elections of his indicate that the procedure we use Deputy Chairperson. to elect the Deputy is similar to the one used for the election of the

2 Monday 23rd January, 2012 Election of the Deputy Chairperson of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi

Chairperson. Those who wish to KGOSI POTSOENG (NGAMI nominate should raise their hands. REGION): Seconded, Mr Chairman. KGOSI SEKWENYANE (NGWAKETSE WEST MR CHAIRMAN: Thank REGION): Thank you Chairman. you, Kgosi Potsoeng. Kgosi I nominate Kgosi Tshipe. Machilidza, do you agree to stand for the election of the Deputy MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi Tshipe Chairperson? has been nominated, is there KGOSI MACHILIDZA anybody seconding the nomination (BOTETI REGION): I do by Kgosi Sekwenyane? agree, Mr Chairman. KGOSI MMUALEFHE MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you, (CHOBE DISTRICT): I thank Kgosi Machilidza. Is there any you Mr Chairman. I second the other name that the Members, nomination. would still like to propose MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you for the position of the Deputy Kgosi Mmualefhe. Kgosi Tshipe Chairperson? Tshipe, do you agree to stand KGOSI TELEKELO for the election of the Deputy (MOSHUPA REGION): Mr Chairperson? Chairman, I thank you. I wish to KGOSI TSHIPE nominate Kgosi Lotlamoreng II (MAHALAPYE REGION): to contest for the post of Deputy. Thank you Mr Chairman. I do I thank you, Mr Chairman. agree. MR CHAIRMAN: Thank MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you, you, Kgosi Telekelo. Kgosi Kgosi Tshipe. I will see by way Lotlamoreng has been nominated of raised hands, if there are any to stand for the post of the Deputy. more nominees for the post of Is there any seconder? the Deputy Chairperson. KGOSI SEELETSO KGOSI KAHIKO III: Thank (TONOTA REGION): I second you Mr Chairman, Kgosi the nomination, Mr Chairman. Machilidza. MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi Lotlamoreng, do you wish to Machilidza has been nominated, stand for the election of the post any seconder? of the Deputy?

3 Monday 23rd January, 2012 Election of the Deputy Chairperson of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi

KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II Secretary shall examine the ballot (BAROLONG): I do agree, Mr papers and reject any that do Chairman. not comply with the provisions of paragraph six in the Second MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi Schedule. She will then count Lotlamoreng has been nominated, the number of votes obtained seconded, and the nominee has by each candidate and write it agreed to stand for the elections. against each candidate’s name on Is there any other name that the the blackboard as the number of members would like to propose votes is being called. A candidate, to stand for the post of the Deputy who has received more votes Chairperson? than any other candidate, shall KGOSI BOIDITSWE forthwith be declared to have (SEROWE REGION): I thank been duly elected. you, Mr Chairman. I would like The figures are there on the chalk to move that we vote from the board. three nominees suggested, lest we all get in the list. I thank you. Members voted as follows:

Question put and agreed to. Kgosi Tshipe 7

MR CHAIRMAN: This means Kgosi Machilidza 13 we have three nominees for the post of the Deputy Chairperson. Kgosi Lotlamoreng II 13 They are; Kgosi Tshipe Tshipe, Abstain 1 Kgosi Oreagetse Machilidza and Kgosi Lotlamoreng II. Total 34 Members The secretariat will now give Rule 10 of the Second Schedule you papers in which you will says, “If two or more candidates write the name of your Deputy have an equal number of votes Chairperson candidate. If you and that number is greater than write two names, your paper will the number of votes obtained be set aside as a spoilt vote. The by other candidates, then such ballot papers will be deposited candidates shall be candidates in the box, one by one, starting in a second poll to be held in with me. We will follow our accordance with the provisions of alphabetical order to cast the this Schedule. If after the second votes. When all Members who poll has been held in terms of this wish to vote have voted, the paragraph an equality of votes

4 Monday 23rd January, 2012 Re-Election of Deputy Chairman is found to exist between any This means, Kgosi Lotlamoreng candidates so that the addition of II has been duly elected Deputy one vote would entitle one of the Chairperson of this House. I candidates to be declared elected, therefore congratulate him on his the Secretary shall forthwith election as Deputy Chairman. decide between these candidates by lot and shall proceed as if the HONOURABLE MEMBERS: candidate on whom the lot falls Applause! has received an additional vote.” MR CHAIRMAN: Distinguished We have two Members with a ladies and gentlemen, I wish to tie, we shall repeat the procedure. take this opportunity to thank This time the two candidates with the Honourable Members of equal votes are Kgosi Machilidza Ntlo ya Dikgosi for electing me and Kgosi Lotlamoreng. Chairperson of this House and my colleague Kgosi Lotlamoreng RE-ELECTION OF DEPUTY II to the position of Deputy CHAIRMAN Chairperson of Ntlo ya Dikgosi. I believe the vote is both a wish and MR CHAIRMAN: According trust that we will lead this House to the figures that we have here, with you Honourable Members. Members have voted as follows: We hope to accomplish the target Members voted as follows: we have set for ourselves. I assure you that, we shall do everything Kgosi Machilidza 16 that you assign us to do. We shall not disappoint you, and we are Kgosi Lotlamoreng II 17 determined to take this House Abstain 1 to greater heights and success. As we move forward, there is Total 34 Members a lot that we shall do together, So, according to the Rules, a more especially, working on the candidate who has received more foundation that we have already votes at a poll than any other laid down. In our leadership, there candidate shall be forthwith shall be consultation in everything declared to have been duly that we shall be doing to ensure elected as Deputy Chairperson proper implementation of the by the Presiding Officer. In this Strategic Plan of Ntlo ya Dikgosi. case, I think the figures say it We shall collaborate with other all; it is Kgosi Lotlamoreng II. stakeholders for capacity building

5 Monday 23rd January, 2012 Re-Election of Deputy Chairman for Members of Ntlo ya Dikgosi, is a continuation of the one we following the identification needs had last year; a boot camp and by the Honourable Members change management workshop. of this House in 2011. Let me In addition, we will also have the point out that Ntlo ya Dikgosi opportunity to attend the Budget shall continue to interact with Speech, next week on the 1st of Government on matters it February 2012. Thank you, Madam considers very important for the Speaker, for inviting Members of development of this nation. It shall this House to the Budget meeting. also keep focused in its mandate We shall continue with some of of advising the Government. the activities as our programme I hope we shall work together unfolds. to strengthen the institution of Bogosi in our country. With I wish to continue with my vote your love and cooperation, I of thanks. I thank some Members hope we shall soldier on with of the Diplomatic community for the advices you shall be giving the support they have rendered us in the endeavour to lead Ntlo to this House over the past years. ya Dikgosi. As you have seen Last year, we visited China. in the Order Paper, our business After signing a Memorandum of entails the debate on the Local Understanding with the Chinese Government Bill, 2011 (No. 13 Association for International of 2011) and the Constitution Understanding, some Members (Amendment) Bill, 2011 (No. 15 of this House visited China for of 2011). We shall commence more than seven days. I believe with the business of this House this is indicative of how this in the afternoon. I also hope we House is collaborating with the shall debate these Bills within international community in this the stipulated time, with an open country. Honourable Members, in mind as well as coming up with the interest of time, we should stop robust resolutions which would this far with regard to information be indicative of our seriousness as sharing and plans. We shall share Members of this House so as to some of the information during give sound advice which I earlier the course of the year. I also hope on alluded to in my remarks. You that, the Honourable Minister for will realize that in our programme Presidential Affairs and Public we also have a two day workshop Administration, who is here, at Botswana National Productivity will this year try to speed up the Centre (BNPC). The workshop process of the Rules of Procedure

6 Monday 23rd January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading of this House so that we do as it has been read for the first away with the issue and ensure time by Clerks-at-the-Table, we that the House is run efficiently should now give the Minister the and effectively, with the new opportunity to explain this Bill procedures that we would like that has been presented before to implement. We have come this House. to the end of the first session of our meeting. After this session, MINISTER OF LOCAL Honourable Members shall take GOVERNMENT (HON a group photo by the portico, just SIELE): Thank you very much, in front of this House. Therefore, Mr Chairman. First and foremost I request Members to proceed to Mr Chairman, let me take this the portico. We shall be joined opportunity to congratulate you by the Leader of the House and and your Deputy for having His Honour the Vice President. I been elected this morning as the request that we make it as quick leadership of Ntlo ya Dikgosi. as we can. We will hold a special Mr Chairman, I beg to present meeting for Honourable Members the Local Government Bill 2011, at 12.15 in a place that shall Bill No. 13 of 2011 for the First be agreed upon. Lastly, all our Reading. This Bill was tabled distinguished guests are invited before Parliament for its First th to join Honourable Members for Reading on the 5 December refreshments at the Dining Hall or 2011 and in accordance with at the Members Lounge. I thank the provisions of Section 88 you for your attention and for (2) of the Constitution it was attending this brief session. Have referred to Ntlo ya Dikgosi and a fruitful day. I do hereby present it to this Honourable House. The initial PROCEEDINGS Local Government Bill 2011, SUSPENDED FOR LUNCH No. 3 of 2011, was tabled before Parliament for first reading BILL on the 25th March 2011 and presented to Ntlo ya Dikgosi LOCAL GOVERNMENT on the 13th June 2011. This BILL, 2011 (NO. 13 OF 2011) Honourable House debated the First Reading Bill at length and came up with several recommendations which MR CHAIRMAN: We are now were considered before the Bill getting into the Bill that has just was taken back to Parliament been read. The procedure is that, 7 Monday 23rd January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading for Second Reading during the to review the effectiveness of July 2011 Parliament Session. the structure, organisation, roles Mr Chairman, after three (3) and responsibilities of Local days of discussions on the Bill, Government institutions at all Parliament resolved on the 12th levels in Botswana. of June 2011 to adjourn the debate, pending consultations Mr Chairman, the Commission by my Ministry and Members of in the examination of the legal Parliament with stakeholders on instruments governing Local the following major issues: Authorities, that is, Local Government (District Councils) a) Floor crossing; Act - Cap 40:01 and Townships Act - Cap 40:02 noted that these b) Extending property rating to are similar in detail and content, rural districts; save for the following notable differences: c) Dissolution of Councils and a) The power to establish or d) Declaration of financial dissolve District and Urban interest. Councils rests with the Mr Chairman, following that, President and the Minister consultation was done with the respectively; Council leadership on the 1st August b) The contents of the regulations 2011. Thereafter, my Ministry governing Urban Councils are consulted 53 villages around the almost a reproduction of the country and 12 Councils between Local Government (District August and December 2011. As Councils) Act, save that the a result, a new Bill, the Local Town Council Regulations Government Bill, 2011 (No.13 have a part dealing with of 2011), was drafted and was “Valuation and Rating;” and publicised on the 21st of October 2011, the same Bill is now being c) Section 8 (2) of the Town presented to this Honourable Council Regulations permits House. Mr Chairman, the Local the Minister of Local Government Bill emanated from Government to dismiss recommendations made by the a Specially Appointed Second Presidential Commission Councillor whilst the District on Local Government Structure Council Act is silent on this which was appointed in 2001 issue.

8 Monday 23rd January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading

The Commission further rural or urban and also to provide observed that there were some for matters incidental thereto. inherent weaknesses and barriers Mr Chairman, let me now take for effective service delivery this opportunity to take the in the existing legal framework Honourable House through the for Councils. As a result, the general changes to the current Commission concluded that it law as proposed in this Bill and would be sensible to constitute a the specific ones that went for comprehensive legal instrument further consultations. First of all, to cover both District and Urban the intention is to provide for the Councils. The instrument is powers at Central Government expected to strengthen the legal level to be under one authority. position and identity of Councils The current Local Government by stimulating ownership, (District Councils) Act gives accountability, responsiveness, the powers to the President to responsibility and boost their establish and dissolve Councils, confidence in the discharge of whereas the Township Act gives their mandate. The Commission the same power to the Minister. therefore recommended that Local Government (District a) This Bill therefore provides Councils) Act - Cap 40:01 for these powers to rest and Townships Act Cap 40:02 with the Minister of Local be consolidated into one Government. Local Government Act. This b) Consultations on the four recommendation was approved issues which necessitated through Government White adjournment have been Paper No. 1 of 2004 with the undertaken. The product Second Presidential Commission of these consultations are on Local Government Structure put before the Honourable in Botswana. House as follows: Mr Chairman, the object of this i. Floor Crossing: - On the Bill is therefore to consolidate issue of floor crossing the Local Government (District which addresses situations Councils) Act, Cap 40:01 and when the seat of a member the Townships Act, Cap 40:02 becomes vacant, the Bill has to have one Local Government considered different factors Act that governs Councils that could lead to that. Those regardless of whether these are factors include:

9 Monday 23rd January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading

• When a member leaves the iv. The Bill has proposed two political party which he or separate clauses, one on she has been a member Dissolution of Councils of and joins a different and the other one on the political party. Restructuring of Councils.

• If a member nominated by • On dissolution, the Bill a political party becomes empowers the Minister to an independent member. dissolve a Council. The Bill further provides for • If an independent member conditions under which such joins a political party. dissolution can take place. These conditions are:- • If a specially nominated member who at the time of a) where the Council fails nomination did not have to hold three consecutive political affiliation joins a ordinary meetings. political party. b) where there is serious ii. On Property rating, the Bill financial mismanagement proposes that rates should as may be certified by the be extended to rural areas Auditor General. but should be applied only to commercial and industrial c) where the Council wilfully properties. fails without good cause to perform any of its functions. iii. On declaration of financial interests, the Bill proposes that • Once a council is dissolved, a member of Council should a commission of not more within 90 days of election or than 10 members shall be appointment and thereafter by appointed to run the affairs 31st March each year declare of the Council. Such a their financial interests. The commission shall operate Bill further proposes that for a period not exceeding these declarations shall be 90 days. in writing and that Council should have the prerogative • Under Restructuring, the of determining which of the Minister after consultation financial interests should be can subdivide or merge made public. Councils for administrative expediency.

10 Monday 23rd January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading

I thank you, Mr Chairman and your opportunity to debate the the Honourable Members for Bill focusing only on the general your attention. Thank you. merits and principles of the Bill. Not dwelling on the process of MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Clause by Clause, this shall be Honourable Minister of Local done on the second stage. Those Government, Peter Letlhogonolo who want to debate this Bill shall Siele. I believe the Honourable indicate by raising their hands. Members were listening attentively when the Honourable KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH Minister was presenting in the EAST DISTRICT): Thank you, Queen’s language, elaborating on Mr Chairman. Let me take this the Local Government Bill that opportunity to congratulate you we are supposed to debate. By so and your Deputy, for having been doing, the Honourable Minister entrusted to lead this House. I greet was presenting in this House the all the Honourable Ministers and First Reading of the Bill. Since Government officials present. I the Honourable Minister has will start my deliberations as per expounded on what could have your guidance. Indeed we have changed in this Bill, Members seen the Bill and read it. We also will be given the opportunity get the gist of what the Bill is to share their views on the Bill trying to address. We are aware before the House. According that Councils are going through to our Rules, Part VIII, Rule 39 some challenges and cannot (4) reads thus, “when the First function due to unfolding events. Reading of a Bill is taken, the However Mr Chairman, there is Chairman shall move that the something that concerns me in Bill be read for the first time, this Bill, which I think should be and a debate may then arise on explained; the issue of properties the question covering the general accumulated by the community, merits and principles of the Bill. under Village Development At the conclusion of such debate, Committee (VDC). I think it is no question shall be put and the under Section 8, I will not dwell question on the motion shall be much on it because we are not deemed to have been agreed to.” yet at the stage where we look at the Bill clause by clause. It This therefore means, since the is clearly written here that there First Reading has been done, is a proposal that assets which Honourable Members, it is now belong to the VDC, will be

11 Monday 23rd January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading part of the Council, including KGOSI SEBOKO (BALETE): the liabilities. If that would be Thank you Mr Chairman. I would the case Mr Chairman, it will also like to express my gratitude not be appropriate because I for being given the opportunity believe that we are promoting to comment on the Bill brought self-reliance in the communities. before this House. It is not the These days we want Batswana first time we are dealing with to be productive and self-reliant. this Bill, even though this time In the case of the VDC, I believe it may have some amendments. we should strengthen whatever it I think we once debated on the has so far, so that it can produce Declaration of Townships. In that more than what it is producing Bill, it was mentioned that some at the moment. If we could places within the tribal territories take their assets and liabilities may be converted into townships. and give them to Councils, I Apart from minerals, I do not feel it would not be proper Mr know any other thing which Chairman. Those community may cause a tribal territory to be assets should remain where they converted into a township. How are. We accumulated them as is it going to assist or benefit us? communities and we still want I have a fear that this might cause to continue doing so. There is a confusion for Batswana in terms poverty eradication programme, of understanding the procedure. which is being coordinated by Maybe the Minister, in his answer, Honourable Masisi. We are could elaborate further as to why pleased with the way it is being they want to create townships in run because it gives communities our villages, excluding areas like more powers to do more than Ngwaketse and GaMmangwato, what they have been doing. If since we know why they were we can take their assets and established. give them to Councils, I do not believe it would be good for us. The other issue that concerned me We may have smart partnerships was the issue of rates and water in assets like Community halls, bills. I am cognizant of the fact which are expensive to maintain. that, some homesteads or villages However, we do not agree that will be left out. When going houses or any other asset should through the Bill and listening be handed over to the Council. I to the Minister, I did not get wish to stop this far Honourable anything on the request we had Chairman. I thank you. made, concerning the fact that we

12 Monday 23rd January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading have ploughing fields. Some of KGOSI MACHILIDZA our areas are so small such that (BOTETI REGION): Let me we have ploughing fields, cattle congratulate you Mr Chairman posts and home steads combined and Honourable Lotlamoreng, in one area. Some people may Deputy Chairperson. This is an build decent homes at the cattle impediment Kgosi. Let’s talk about post; we should look into such it so that we make corrections. issues so that Batswana are not taxed for such efforts. It is one HONOURABLE MEMBERS: of the things that scare me. My (Laughter!) earnest belief is that Councils KGOSI MACHILIDZA: Mr should generate their own income Chairman, I just wanted to for their operations. We need thank the Honourable Minister to consider that if a person with for presenting this Bill. I property in the cattle post is was not in when the Minister subjected to pay tax, it may not initially presented this Bill, I be the only tax he/she has to pay. was in Zambia. I may not be Some may be civil servants and as conversant with the Bill as others working in other sectors, Members who were here when where they will be paying income it was presented. However, tax and other taxes. In addition to I would like to say, we have such, there is another tax that is deliberated on this Bill before paid by every Motswana, whether and I thank the Chairman for poor or not, called Value Added reminding us that we shall Tax (VAT) which I believe is debate the Bill in details at its generating a lot of income for the Second Reading. That is where Government. Maybe we should we shall indicate whether we look into whether local areas may agree with a particular clause or not be given a share from those not. The Minister mentioned a taxes instead of overwhelming lot of things. Maybe, Honourable Batswana with a lot of payments. Kgosi Seboko wanted to react to These are issues that were some of those things when she confusing me a little bit. I will made mention of taxes and rates, comment on other issues as they among other things. Government come. My main concern was on has to realize that villages are those two. We should critically not necessarily similar. They assess whether we are not going to differ in terms of the economy overwhelm Batswana with many and size. taxes. I thank you Mr Chairman.

13 Monday 23rd January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading

There are villages which have Moving on Mr Chairman, the a larger population and enjoy Minister made a very important most of the Governmental presentation before this House developments. The Minister about politicians. He mentioned should consider such things, floor crossing with a tone that especially when he talks of rates. seemed to be suggesting that He should consider the size of it should be stopped. This floor the villages as well as the number crossing covers the Elected of people residing there. We Members, Specially Elected and know that we are still in difficult Independent Candidates. He is economic times, a situation saying action has to be taken to which I hope the Government address this. One gets to wonder is observing since we may be if some of these presumptions heading towards tougher times. are research based. I believe In the past, when laws such as this country, is an open and these ones were enacted, people democratic country. When one is would go to South Africa to find aggrieved, it is up to that person work so that they could pay tax. to choose the appropriate action. These days it is tough, we have Different organizations, be it nowhere to go. I am pleading that, political, partisan, etcetera, have when they implement laws like their own challenges, let them this one, they should differentiate be run as before; through party the villages, in terms of size. policies, so that when there are Places like ploughing fields were party issues, they should not be mentioned but nothing was said referred to the Government to about cattle posts. Mini cattle a point that the Government is posts and cattle posts do exist ultimately forced to make laws everywhere in Botswana. What which prevent people from will happen to them if at all crossing the floor. ploughing fields are going to be exempted? Does this mean if Maybe, if a research had been a person has few donkeys and conducted or there were some cattle in such areas, then rates findings indicating that if a have to be paid? I am suggesting Member has to cross the floor, that we should also look at his intelligence and performance such issues and see how they in serving the nation is negatively are differentiated. We all know affected, we would understand. that farmers do not necessarily If the way that person has been generate enough capital. representing the voters has

14 Monday 23rd January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading changed to an extent that it could We are a country which respects put the country at risk due to people’s rights, let us keep that his diminishing intellect, that up. We know very well that could be an issue to consider. individuals in the Councils or The justification would be that some parties may have conflicts if we can allow people to cross within their organizations. It is the floor, and they keep on losing not clear whether there will be a their intellect, we will end up lost thorough investigation to ascertain as a country. I urge the House, to the cause of floor crossing. Will critically look at these issues as there be room for those whose leaders and avoid falling into the conditions are unbearable in their trap of giving the Government all organizations to move, so long as the power such that it will find it does not impact on the country’s itself making all the decisions. economy and governance? My Will the people be able to punish concern is on the economy that politician in any way, if it of the country. This is just happens that he/she crosses the disturbing the progress of certain floor but the party does not take organizations in a political setup. any action against him/her? It Human rights are a global thing. seems Batswana cannot make If conditions in one’s country are any decisions for themselves. Let not conducive, people seek refuge us allow Batswana to exercise in neighbouring countries. That whatever measure they would is why we have some Angolans like. I believe it is not the first who ran away from their country time that we hear about floor because they could not cope with crossing, it is a practice which has the situation there. In any case, in been happening a lot in the past. politics the norm is that people This did not bring the country join organisations which they are into turmoil, just some instability comfortable with. I do not think in one party. It comes out like this issue should be so disturbing it is a dent to the concerned to the extent that we even come party, which may result in the up with legislation to stop it. This sensitivity of the issue rubbing is not new, it happened in some the politicians the wrong way, of the political parties. They and they end up running to experienced similar problems Batswana and telling them that but they accepted it. This is still this is dangerous, while in actual working for us. It is not bringing fact, it is just a political gain. any setbacks, which may result in any violation of people’s rights.

15 Monday 23rd January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading

Mr Chairman, we have to consider home, which he can associate these things from both angles. with. That is not a crime, as long At times the organization can as he can continue delivering. turn against a member, whether Floor crossing should be left as it as a Councilor or Member of is. Let us observe its challenges, Parliament. They may inform how it can affect us and who is people that a certain member really affected. If need be, the has changed, in a bid to discredit community can do something that member. Let us critically about it. Mr Chairman, there assess this issue and advocate are several issues brought or for accommodating those who raised by this Bill. I believe I may not feel comfortable in have discussed the issue of rates. their parties. Everything we do The rural community is highly has some financial implications. affected by abject poverty, they Finance is the key in all areas. depend on the Government. If Elections are budgeted for, that we keep on overwhelming them is why they are held after five with more taxes we will not be years. If they can be held every doing justice to them. I once read year, the country’s economy one document which said that will be compromised. Suppose there are so many taxes which Honourable Members agree with an individual is expected to this Bill and we enact this law, pay. If these taxes will keep on where will we get the funds to being increased, people will be finance elections if it so happens overwhelmed. Mr Chairman let that a certain number crosses the me stop here. I thank you. floor. Let us critically look at this. The politicians should embrace KGOSI LEMPADI and accept this. We can live with (OKAVANGO): Thank you, some of these things and still Mr Chairman and Honourable make some progress, rather than Minister. Let me contribute living in extreme fear. on the Village Development Committee (VDC) property issue. An independent candidate Transferring Village Development struggles alone to be voted into Committee properties to the power. After winning elections, councils will create a lot of he may decide to join a political problems because, in our areas, it party. The candidate may have is the VDC which assists us with analysed political organizations, civil servants’ accommodation and ultimately chose a political and other things. VDC property

16 Monday 23rd January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading belongs to the VDC and not the to anybody in Botswana? To Council. It is always difficult to me everyone is just happy, get assistance from the Council, when one is not happy with a you will always be told that they particular party, he/ she crosses are at Gumare or elsewhere, VDC to another party. After five years, assets are normally found where the voters will indicate their VDC is located. Which means preference through voting. Let VDC property should belong to us ask ourselves this question, the people in a particular place if a person decides to cross to where that VDC is. I do not see another party, and we hold some any reason why VDC assets elections, how many elections are should be transferred to Councils. we going to have in this country with an acute shortage of money? I support the proposal for a Elections are very expensive. Member of Ntlo ya Dikgosi We need to address this question to be an ex-officio Member of before we pass the Bill on floor the Council. It is very crucial. crossing. I really don’t see any The Council speaks about the problem with the current set up, interests of the community, which because as a Councilor in your in a way is Ntlo ya Dikgosi’s respective polling area, when you mandate. Moreover, we deal cross the floor, you would have with similar issues for the same consulted with your electorates community, which we need to that, I have challenges in my discuss together and come up party, therefore, I need to move with a common solution on how to the other side. At times you best to assist our communities. may reach a consensus. So, I I consider it very important that really don’t see any reason why a Member of Ntlo ya Dikgosi this should trouble us, when should be an ex- officio Member there is so much peace with our of the Council. It will also assist procedure. I really don’t see the to avoid instances where we will need. Thank you, Mr Chairman. have to accuse one another in the event things go wrong. KGOSI KAHIKO III (GHANZI WEST REGION): On floor crossing; I am surprised Thank you Mr Chairman, at the way Batswana view some Ministers here present. There issues. We are at times concerned are three issues that I would like with minor issues. Has floor to comment on. The first one is crossing brought any challenges on villages which will be turned

17 Monday 23rd January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading into townships. This will be one The question is how often are we way of phasing out Bogosi. As going to go for elections since soon as a village is turned into a floor crossing is an everyday township, it will then mean that phenomenon? When an individual the system of Bogosi is changed falls out with his fellow members, and there will be Court Presidents. he moves to another party and As such, Bogosi in that area when he realises that conditions in would cease to exist. These are the new party are not favourable some of the issues that need to or that there are slim chances of be looked into; will they be good getting a lucrative position, he re- for the nation at large? We know joins his former party. We need to very well that in some areas examine whether the economy of villages can be converted into this country will cope, considering townships for mining purposes. how expensive elections are; Some villages in this country the personnel employed to run were converted into townships the elections, transport and despite the fact that there were etcetera. All these things affect no mining activities in that area. the economy of the country and On the issues of rates, I am just we have been complaining about wondering how much tax one recession; we should be prudent pays in a lifetime. We pay tax for on the existing coffers. our assets, at work (income tax) and almost everywhere. Some In conclusion, I will comment on villages do not generate any the issue of Village Development income and they do not have any Committee assets. Honourable avenues that can sustain them. Members, it is very difficult for us to support or not to support Floor crossing, in my opinion, this issue. When we look at is not wrong. The very people the entire country, VDC is the who elected these candidates pillar and foundation of the have never gone to any court of development in every village. law and complained that their We are going to encounter a lot representatives have crossed the of problems if we take powers floor. No one has ever complained from the VDC without proper to the Government. Now, the consultation. In a democratic Government is coming up with system of governance, we have a Bill which stipulates that even an obligation to make decisions when independent candidates in a transparent manner, in join a party, it warrants elections. consultation with the people.

18 Monday 23rd January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading

When the Minister went around Honourable Members here consulting people on this Bill, the present. This document was sent issue of the VDCs was not raised. to us in advance to peruse it for Now, here it is, whereas Batswana better understanding. I had an out there do not know anything opportunity to go through it and about it. It is important that we there are issues that I understood consult them about this issue and those that I did not. One of because they are the ones who are the issues that I understood is on hands-on in the committee. One declaration of townships. I want to wonders what would happen to know how many towns a country us, especially those of us at Tribal should have. I really do not know Administration, because we how to differentiate a town, a city completely depend on the VDC. and a township. We have places It provides residential and office like Gaborone, Francistown, accommodation. If these properties Jwaneng, Selibe Phikwe and are transferred to Councils, then Orapa defined as towns. Jwaneng they will belong to the Council. and Orapa appear to be at the We are not going to benefit level of a township, they are not from them. VDC houses have towns and they are not villages as been providing accommodation well. Now, places like Gaborone to Council Officers, Tribal and Francistown are already Administration Officers as well congested, there is no room for as Veterinary Officers. In other developments. So, whether we places like Charles Hill, Council like it or not, developments are has confiscated about eight houses going to force some villages to be to date, we are still having a case upgraded into townships. It is not regarding this. Let us seriously Government’s intention to spite interrogate this issue, and if at some villages by converting them all we reach an agreement, let it to townships; it is dictated by the be after extensive consultation, state of events. We know that that will not disadvantage any there may be challenges because Motswana. Everybody should in these villages, they lead very have a democratic input in the rural lives. Some social lifestyles final decision. I thank you, Mr are going to be affected such that Chairman. at one point, livestock will not be allowed in the village. The change KGOSI BOIDITSWE is inevitable. The Government is (SEROWE REGION): under pressure from the people Good day Mr Chairman and who want developments in their

19 Monday 23rd January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading villages but at the same time there elected you into that position, is a challenge from some villages they did so hoping that you will which do not want their villages serve them using that particular to be turned into townships. party’s policies. So, it is not right Some places are already affected to just run off. Let us carefully as we speak, for instance, areas look at this. It is not good for us around Gaborone; Tlokweng and the electorate. Mr, Chairman, I Mogoditshane are not rural any wanted to highlight those points. more. Gaborone is eventually going to be like Johannesburg Coming to the VDC, it seems where all areas around it will VDCs are struggling due be part of the city. That is the to mismanagement of their challenge that we have to deal properties however, that may with but these things have to be not be the case. There may be done through consultation. We some unforeseen circumstances, have no option, Mr Chairman, which the VDC itself may be other than succumbing to the able to outline. You may find that changes. the houses which they rent out are not in a habitable condition On the issue of floor crossing, I such that some tenants even oppose it because some politicians vacate the houses having some are opportunists. If we encourage rent arrears. Some leave these them to switch political parties, houses in distasteful conditions; we will never have genuine walls smeared with cooking oils politicians. We will always have and posters pasted such that an politicians who cannot sacrifice aspiring tenant will not even be themselves for their voters. enticed to occupy them. I do not They will always move from a know whether Government or party when they face challenges. the Council resolved to take over Floor crossing will end up these houses because of this issue. disadvantaging the electorate, If that is the case, did they not because when members cross, investigate as to why VDCs are they do not accommodate them. failing to manage their properties? They just hear rumours that an I thank you, Mr Chairman. Honourable Member has joined Lesedi la Botswana or any other KGOSI POTSOENG (NGAMI party. My view is that, such a REGION): Thank you, Mr person should leave the seat with Chairman. I would like to be the party. When the electorates very brief. I thank the Minister

20 Monday 23rd January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading for having brought this Bill to another party and they have lost this House once again. However, confidence in him/her, they can I would like to appreciate the have a platform in which they reasons that would lead the can indicate that they have no Minister to dissolve a Council? confidence on such a Councillor. The Constitution of Botswana There could be a re-election if says that Councils should be majority of the people in that dissolved at the end of the life Council ward indicate that they of Parliament. Will the Minister do not have confidence in that be dissolving one Council that he person. Instead of coming up identifies or all Councils during with a legislation abolishing floor the time that he so desires? crossing, why don’t we sensitize people about their power to call On the issue of floor crossing; in for a re-election as constituents? our last meeting, we indicated that I think that would be beneficial, if floor crossing is not allowed, rather than abolishing floor we would not be practicing crossing, standing against a democracy. Our Constitution person’s feelings, to join a party allows everyone to affiliate with of their choice. We will be killing any party of their choice at any time his/her ambitions. If I do not irrespective of the circumstances serve people well, they are free within the party. The Constitution to call the Minister and lodge a is silent on whether that person complaint. I may be relieved of would be a Councilor or a Member my duties because of that. That is of Parliament, it simply says democracy. Floor crossing should everyone is free to join any party be left as is. Let us continue of their choice. It is unfortunate teaching people that they have a that when Ministers go around right to complain if the service holding Kgotla meetings on floor they are getting is below par. crossing, they only talk about the There should be no involvement disadvantages of floor crossing to from the Government. That is my the party from which people are opinion, Mr Chairman. defecting. They mention issues such as a Councillor would have On Village Development moved with peoples votes. On the Committee (VDC) properties; other hand, we have a vote of no Mr. Chairman, There should confidence in our Constitution. be consultation with the VDC, They do not tell the people that more than with this House. In the when a Councillor has moved to Kgotla meetings that you held,

21 Monday 23rd January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading this issue was never addressed. the Government, now in addition You are talking about their there is Government levy which property, it shows very well Mr we were never consulted on as Chairman that… the community. Let us weigh these things so that they do not MR CHAIRMAN: I wish to overwhelm the consumers the remind you, Kgosi Potsoeng that way electricity charges do. If you we should restrict our comments buy electricity for P100, you will on the Bill before us. get P79. worth of electricity units, while the rest of the money goes KGOSI POTSOENG: Yes, Mr to Government coffers. Lastly, Chairman, I am just requesting still on the VDCs, I am asking that VDCs should be consulted for thorough consultations with before their properties are taken this committee, get their input as by Councils. We are aware that to whether their properties should we agreed with the merging be handed over to Councils. If of the Local Police with the not, we may fail at this level to Botswana Police, which ended come up with solutions. Thank up creating a lot of problems. you, Mr Chairman. So, this time there should be thorough consultations with the KGOSI GAREBAKWENA VDCs to ascertain whether they (MOLEPOLOLE REGION): agree to this. Thank you, Mr Chairman. My debate will be brief. Thank you I will conclude by addressing Honourable Minister for having the issue of rates. Rates generate combined these two Bills. I think lots of revenue for the Councils. the main thing is to improve on Let us look into this broadly, service delivery. However, the Mr Chairman. These rates will Minister should bear in mind ultimately be too much for the that, when sub district councils people. I will cite an example are established, they are going with the Botswana Power to need resources, for effective Corporation. We pay VAT in service delivery. Nonetheless, the connection fee and also when the idea of establishing sub- we pay our monthly bills. Of district councils is very good. late we are paying Government On the issue of the Minister levy as well as VAT for the establishing townships within an electricity. With my limited administrative District, I would understanding of these things, I like to say, in the previous Act it assume that VAT is revenue for

22 Monday 23rd January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading was clearly explained that, that given here is that at times when can only happen when there are you have many committees, minerals in a District. To allay people tend to spend most of our fears, it would be better if their time on them without being the implementation is clearly productive. We should be careful explained. Are we not risking not to create a problem while we a situation where we will find, are trying to solve another. as one Kgosi cautioned, Bogosi getting extinct? This issue comes KGOSI LOTLAMORENG into play because there are no II: On a point of clarification. clear outlined procedures as it Mr. Chairman before Kgosi was the case with the initial Act. Garebakwena goes further with this issue, the way I understand The suggestion that when a this Bill, it seeks to propose that member should vacate his/her Councils should have committees seat when such member moves which do not exceed seven. As of from one party to another, is now, Councils are at liberty to form undemocratic and violating as many committees as they can. people’s freedom to join The intention is to come up with organizations of their choice. a limit for forming committees, The other issue is that we have as opposed to leaving it open not been informed about how to have as many committees in this procedure has benefitted Councils as possible. Thank you, the countries in which it is Mr Chairman. practiced, such that if adopted in our country it could be of benefit KGOSI GAREBAKWENA: to us too. So, there is need to We appreciate the endeavor to explain issues so that when we give Councils especially those support or negate, we do so enforcing laws in Councils from an informed perspective, powers to control situations in as opposed to being skeptical or their areas of responsibility. I fearful. I wish the Minister could read that these law enforcement bring further clarification as we officers, will have powers to continue with this debate. We arrest and confiscate properties understand that, with the initial from culprits. I am however, Act, only seven committees cautioning that this may be done could be established, while with for a good purpose but it may the new Bill, there can be more create some challenges if people than that. The reason we are charged with the responsibility

23 Monday 23rd January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading are not adequately capacitated. Ministers. Many deliberations They may end up confiscating have been made on the issue of innocent people’s property. It floor crossing. I also wish to add is very important that, those my interpretation on the matter. I charged with the responsibility wish to point out issues which my to enforce the law, should do so colleagues may not be aware of. with adequate knowledge and Let me from the onset point out skills, to protect people’s rights that, I am of the view that floor and not to violate them. There are crossing is not a clean political many complaints indicating that affair. Moreover, it denies voters when people are charged with their rights. I have been listening enforcing law are not adequately to my colleagues saying that capacitated; they may end up not floor crossing is good. Maybe satisfying their customers. Lastly, I should state how bad it is and let me say, we are thankful that advocate for its abolishment. VDCs will now be officially Let me firstly outline issues established. I should nonetheless that make my position strong point out that this is long in opposing floor crossing. For overdue. VDCs are doing a great one to come to Parliament as a service in regions. We believe constituency representative, they establishing them lawfully will go through an election process. be one way of improving their We elect them initially at the efficiency. Let us do more by primary elections and then at assisting them with equipment General Elections. For one to be and manpower that could assist in Parliament with a particular them to deliver effectively. In party ticket and then cross to some regions, VDCs have not another is a personal move. been elected mainly because There could be circumstances of lack of manpower. If we leading to that floor crossing, the improve some things through the reasons are personal. Maybe that legislation, while other things particular person was wronged remain unchanged, we could be in his/her party and because heading for some problems. With of those personal differences, that, I thank you, Mr Chairman. the decision to quit. Whatever happens, the member has to go KGOSI MOETI II back to the electorates, because (SPECIALLY ELECTED): for him/her to be in that position, Thank you Mr Chairman, it is because he/she has been Deputy Chairman and the elected.

24 Monday 23rd January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading

Secondly, there has been a void in party, he should also mention that area of floor crossing which the predicament that an Elected has been a mistake. Some people Member may have gone through, have noticed it and they requested which may have been caused that it should be abolished. It by the organization. So, under denies Batswana their right. It such circumstances, what are the is not a good political practice rights of such a member? Should to cross the floor with people’s it be such that, since he has been votes. Wherever the politician is elected by the majority, he should crossing to, people did not vote just withstand the pressure that for such person at the primary he is under in the organization stage, he/she just forced himself/ and not opt to flee? Is that what herself onto them. He/she left you are saying? those who had elected him/ her without any consultation or KGOSI MOETI II: I thank agreement. You have broken a you for your question, Kgosi covenant or agreement between Machilidza. I have tried to explain yourself and the voter. Therefore, that all the processes involve I support the motion which seeks elections. Democracy on its own to abolish floor crossing. It was says, “It is a government of the a mistake. It came into being people by the people.” That is, when we were still nurturing our for you to go to Parliament as a system of governance. It is one representative, it has to be by the of the things that were supposed mandate of the people. You may to be corrected. One other thing, be having differences in the party Kgosi Kahiko mentioned that no or having a political orientation Motswana ever raised a complaint that is no longer in line with the that his/her vote has been taken party’s ideology, but you still from one party to another… need to go back to the people. You do not just decide alone KGOSI MACHILIDZA: that you want to be a Member Thank you, I wanted to say of Parliament and apply, you something briefly. I wanted to go through the election process, seek clarification while Kgosi and people decide to send you to Moeti is still on the floor. He is Parliament. In the governance of raising very good points, and any country, there are so many I understand him very well. things that are done strictly If he is saying that a Member through elections and Parliament took someone’s vote to another is one of those.

25 Monday 23rd January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading

Kgosi Potsoeng said that we are talked about a person being failing to distinguish between denied his/her rights and deciding feelings and procedure for one to do nothing about it. We should to be a Member of Parliament. not take advantage of people’s Those who are against floor ignorance. It is on such situations crossing are not saying that that you and I should advocate personal issues should not be for the electorate. We should not considered. They are saying; the just keep on crossing from one electorate should be considered party to the other because the as well. Kgosi Potsoeng went on electorate is ignorant, denying and asked what if people do not them their rights because of our have confidence in a member, personal circumstances. doubting his/her credibility? The answer is; back to elections. MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable Electorates should just say Members, when it comes to here is a man; we have lost interruptions I would like us to confidence in him, there should carefully look at the rules. I just be re-elections. In the event it wanted to caution you on that is a personal choice, talk to the one. voters and say, “I am planning to KGOSI GAREBAKWENA: do this, let us go for elections.” On a point of clarification. I Then the member will be elected was listening to Kgosi, he said again in the party of his choice. that, the main thing here is the The question is, is it about the electorate, implying that, it will party or an individual? Are these not be proper if a person can cross desires personal? The bottom the floor without first consulting line is that Batswana’s rights with the people. I would like him should not be violated. Kgosi to explain whether in the event Kahiko said that no Motswana a person does consult with the has ever complained. Honourable people, floor crossing will then Members, the Botswana Electoral be proper in his view. Committee always disseminates voters education however, we KGOSI MOETI II: I thank should be cognisant of the fact you for your questions, it will that majority of Batswana do not assist us to further understand understand why they vote, when the issue at hand. I said, rule they should vote and for whom. number one is, members go to They are not aware of their right Parliament through a vote, it is as electorates. Kgosi Kahiko nothing personal. The democratic

26 Monday 23rd January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading process and procedure is that a Bogosi will not be affected by this person should be elected by the process. We should not be taken people; if along the way they by surprise. For example, when decide otherwise, we go back to the Local Police was converted, elections. Nobody can stop those we never saw any documentation who want to cross the floor from indicating what would happen doing so. However, there should after the transition. I think if the be consultation with the people. whole thing could be explained, I think I earlier on explained it would assist us to appreciate the process. There should be a the advantages of a township, re-election in that constituency and what benefits it would give because things did not go economically and otherwise. I accordingly. Another option thank you, Mr Chairman. would be to wait for the term to elapse and then cross the floor. MR CHAIRMAN: When I Nobody is against floor crossing, look at the time, we are left with when you cross, we should go for three minutes. I will give the elections. People’s rights have opportunity to the Member who been violated because of a gap in will be able to make a deliberation the law. It is neither democratic in three minutes. nor a good practice. Floor KGOSI SEELETSO crossing is not democratic, it is (TONOTA REGION): I thank not acceptable, and it is personal. you, Mr Chairman. I have two It is taking advantage that there issues, and they will only take is no legislation debarring the three minutes. I support moving practice, and that people are Village Development Committee not aware of their rights to raise (VDC) assets to the Councils complaints. Let me move on from because VDC elections are the floor crossing issue, I have conducted in our presence, under made my point. I would like to the auspices of the Council, even quickly touch on declaration of their remunerations are sourced townships. Honourable Members from the Council. That is why raised a concern that it may I am saying, I do not foresee affect Bogosi, which is very true. any problem for such assets In the event Maun is established to be moved to the Councils. a Township, there might be some Mr Chairman, maybe this changes affecting chieftaincy. move would assist in terms of There should be an agreement accounting for VDC revenues. which will reassure us that the

27 Tuesday 24th January, 2012 Chairman’s Remarks

They generate a lot of revenue, read the other document, which which at the end of the day, is contains specific changes on the never accounted for. If you report Local Government Bill. Some to the Council that funds have sections have not changed, as been embezzled at the VDC, it such we should concentrate on seems the Councils cannot do those that have changed, and anything about it. Maybe the appreciate what those changes Council will now account for the entail. I think, by so doing, it will VDC funds. enable us to save time. Secondly, as we debate, we should also I do not support floor crossing at look at our Rules. You should all. I concur with the Honourable know when to rise on a point of Member who just sat down order or a point of clarification. that if you cross the floor, you Know what the procedure is for should consult those who elected seeking clarification. That is you. Just call them and say, found in Rule 29 of our Rules “colleagues, I wish to cross the of Procedure. I wish we could floor because of the following familiarize ourselves with that reasons. I therefore request that Rule. Lastly, we will meet here you elect another candidate tomorrow at 9.30 a.m. who can represent you.” You must vacate their chair, and give ADJOURNMENT them the opportunity to elect a representative of their choice. The House accordingly adjourned th Just leave them and see who at 4:00 p.m. until Tuesday 24 will be interested in electing January, 2012 at 9.30 a.m. you to go to either the Council Tuesday 24th January, 2012 or Parliament. I thank you Mr, Chairman. THE HOUSE met at 9:30 a.m.

MR CHAIRMAN: Thank (THE CHAIRPERSON in the you, Kgosi Seeletso. I believe Chair) we have come to the end of P R A Y E R S business this afternoon. I would like to remind the Honourable * * * * Members that when we get to CHAIRMAN’S REMARKS our respective homes, we should try to read this Bill. Read it and MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI understand it. We should also GABORONE): Good morning

28 Tuesday 24th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate)

Honourable Members, MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Honourable Ministers and Senior Yesterday when we adjourned, Government officials here present we were on the First Reading of this morning. Welcome to the the Local Government Bill, No second day of the 8th Meeting 13 of 2011 and we were looking of the Second Ntlo Ya Dikgosi. at the merits and principles of the Let me start off by highlighting Bill after the presentation by the that this is a very significant day Minister of Local Government, to Botswana. I have observed Honourable Peter Siele. I will that some of us are wearing the now open the floor to Honourable national colours. On behalf of Members, but others had Ntlo Ya Dikgosi, I would like to already deliberated. I will urge take this opportunity to wish the Honourable Members to continue Senior National Team (Zebras) with the debate bearing in mind all the best in their game against that we have to move on to the the Black Stars of Ghana this Second Reading where we will evening in Gabon. It has been a debate the Bill clause by clause great achievement for the Zebras and make necessary changes. Let to qualify for African Football us not dwell much on the First Cup of Nations (AFCON) 2012 Reading of this Bill. I see two and I believe they will continue Members raising their hands, but to excel. Even though we are not I know they deliberated on this physically in Gabon to support issue yesterday, I can only give them, they are in our prayers and them a chance to say something we still believe that they can do if it has nothing to do with the wonders this evening. I foresee Bill because as I have already a win tonight and I believe that stated, we are still to go on to after this meeting, we will go the Second Reading which will and watch the game. I urge us give us the opportunity to deal all to put on national colours to with it, clause by clause. Let me show our support for the team. encourage Honourable Members With those words we will now to note that the law permits us to continue with today’s business. debate without any time limit, so when we are given the floor LOCAL GOVERNMENT we should ensure that we cover BILL, 2011 (NO. 13 OF 2011) everything. I therefore do not First Reading deem it proper to debate on the same matter twice when you had (Resumed Debate) been given the opportunity to do

29 Tuesday 24th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate) so without limits. If there are no Thank you Mr Chairman. Members who wish to debate on the First Reading it means that we MR CHAIRMAN: I believe have concluded the First Reading that the Honourable Minister of the Bill on the general merits has noted all the concerns and and principles, we are moving on he will address them as we move to the next level of the Bill. on with the Second Reading or perhaps we could seek LOCAL GOVERNMENT clarity from our Parliamentary BILL, 2011 (NO. 13 OF 2011) Counsel. Procedurally the First Reading concerns the general Second Reading views and merits of the Bill but MR CHAIRMAN: According the Second Reading gives the to the Rules of Procedure, this is Minister a chance to explain a stage where the Chairman calls some of the aspects Members on every clause for Members do not understand. I therefore, to debate it in detail. We have believe that all the questions that addressed the general merits and Members asked yesterday will principles of the Bill and today be addressed as we move along. we will focus on the Bill clause I have noted your concern Kgosi by clause. I take it that we all have Mosadi Seboko. Let us move on copies of the Bill with us. As we with the Bill. The first page B.169 go on clause by clause, the law outlines the Memorandum and I says that the Chairman shall call believe that that there is nothing a number of each clause or any Members want to correct there. group of clauses in succession. Moving on to the second page, it deals with the arrangement KGOSI MOSADI SEBOKO: of clauses, is there anyone who On a point of clarification. Thank would like to comment on how you Mr Chairman. We had asked clauses have been arranged? questions yesterday because some of the things were not clear, KGOSI MACHILIDZA for instance, when we addressed (BOTETI REGION): Mr the issue of townships, the old Chairman, before we proceed, law provided for the declaration can I have clarification on Clause of a township when mines were 1, item 7, which talks about sought in a particular area. Can “establishment of Subordinate the Minister clarify this before we Authorities”. What does the term move on to the Second Reading? Subordinate Authority mean?

30 Tuesday 24th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate)

MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable just about arrangement of clauses, Minister, can you clarify the term that is, the preliminary and Page ‘Subordinate Authorities.’ 173 is mainly about that. Is there any Member who wishes to MINISTER OF LOCAL comment on Clause 1; Short Title GOVERNMENT (HON and Commencement? If there is SIELE): Thank you Mr Chairman. no comment then Members agree We have Councils, Sub District to the Clause. Kgosi Sekwenyane, Councils and Administrative Short Title and Commencement? Authorities. These Subordinates are the Sub-Districts, the main KGOSI SEKWENYANE: I was Councils delegate powers to the looking at the words, Kgosana Sub-Districts. They have their and Kgosi own recurrent budget. Basically they are referring to those Sub- MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi sectors of the Councils. Some Sekwenyane, sit down. Do Councils do not have Subordinate Honourable Members agree that Authorities but they may, if we pass the Clause 1; Short Title need be, create such kinds of and Commencement? Subordinate Authorities in future. Clause 2; Interpretation, Kgosi Thank you Mr Chairman. Sekwenyane? MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you KGOSI SEKWENYANE: Mr Honourable Minister. Let us Chairman, I wanted clarity on move on, not that I am against Kgosana and Kgosi; we have the the Minister’s response, but there Senior Chief Representative, Chief is Interpretation of the terms Representative and Headman of used in this Bill in the other Arbitration, so I want to know pages. Subordinate Authority is the jurisdiction of Kgosana and one of the terms explained. We Kgosi. Thank you Mr Chairman. move on to the next page; 171. Is there any comment Honourable HONOURABLE SIELE: Mr Members? Shall we move on to Chairman, this clause explains the next page? that “Kgosi” or “Kgosana” has meaning assigned to it under HONOURABLE MEMBERS: the Bogosi Act. Thank you Mr Yes sir Chairman. MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you. KGOSI LOTLAMORENG As I have already stated, this is II: Thank you Mr Chairman.

31 Tuesday 24th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate)

I want to know if it is not interpretation, does Chairperson possible for us to change the refer to both town and District meaning of Chairperson and Council heads? Some town Mayor as defined in the Bill. council heads are addressed as The Bill states that, Chairperson Chairperson instead of Mayor? is a political head of a District What is the reason behind that? Council, Mayor means a political head of a City or Town HONOURABLE SIELE: Council.’ Is there no other word Mr Chairman, during the that could be used instead of Local Government Structure “political head”? There are Commission, there was a debate those who are not politicians but on how these two could be are Specially Elected basing on classified. The words ‘Mayor’ their competency. Is that person and ‘Chairman’ as explained in denied the position of a Mayor the dictionary, mean one and or Council Chairperson or does the same thing. We decided as a it mean that by virtue of the country that, we will use Mayor in appointment into the Council townships and in the Districts we one becomes a politician? call them Council Chairpersons. We have other areas which are HONOURABLE SIELE: regarded as townships such as Thank you Mr Chairman. Even Ghanzi, we do not address the though the question is not clear; leader there as mayor because the current setup is that Members it is in the context of a District of Councils are politicians. Council. The same applies to They are elected Members of Chobe. That is the classification Councils and even a nominated Mr Chairman. I wanted to take Member of a Council goes into it in that broad context and in a political institution when they the broad explanation on how are nominated. Council has we reached the conclusion as a two parts; the administrative country to remain with Mayors in head and the political head. The urban councils and Honourable administrative head being the Chairperson in the district Council Secretary or Town Clerk, councils, Ghanzi and Kasane in if I understood Kgosi well, that is the same context. Thank you Mr the current setup. Chairman.

KGOSI KAHIKO III: Thank MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you, you Mr Chairman. Still under Honourable Minister.

32 Tuesday 24th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate)

KGOSI MACHILIDZA: KGOSI BOIDITSWE Thank you Mr Chairman and (SEROWE REGION): Thank Honourable Minister. As already you Mr Chairman. Maybe if we stated, we are a developing continue without understanding country. Is it not time for us this term, Subordinate Authority, to differentiate townships and then some of us will be confused. districts in terms of leadership It says, “Subordinate Authority so that we do not have the same means an institutional structure term referring to both a leader lower than a Council established in a city and a township? Thank by the Minister under Section you Mr Chairman. 7”. I wonder if this refers to committees or Sub Councils. We MR CHAIRMAN: If there is even deliberated about it earlier no comment we shall move on. on with other Members and failed When we debate these clauses, to understand it; maybe we could we do so with the aim of drawing delete the word Subordinate and up resolutions and I believe that find a suitable word which will as we debate, we shall note those not confuse us as we progress areas which we want to base with the Bill because I am lost our resolutions on for the third already. Thank you. and final stage of this Bill. Our Rules of Procedure state that, KGOSI MACHILIDZA at the conclusion of debate, no (BOTETI REGION): Mr question shall be put and the Chairman, since we are using question on the motion shall be legal terms, at times it might be deemed to have been agreed to. difficult to understand them. At So we are going to debate these Boteti, we have a Service Centre details accordingly and come up which means it is a Sub District. with a resolution of this House How do Service Centres and with regard to the Bill. If there Subordinate authorities differ are no further comments, let because we are not conversant us move on to the next page. I with legal words, maybe these think I have summarised Clause two might mean the same thing? 2 up to the next page, 174, but I Thank you Mr Chairman will give you the opportunity to peruse through and see if there MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable is anything you would like to Minister, there seems to be a comment on. problem in understanding the term “Subordinate Authority”,

33 Tuesday 24th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate) could you please explain the Thank you Mr Chairman. structure. Kgosi Boiditswe understands it to be a committee MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you while Kgosi Machilidza talks of Minister. Service Centres. KGOSI MOSADI SEBOKO HONOURABLE SIELE: Thank (BALETE): Thank you Mr you Mr Chairman. In Setswana Chairman, maybe Kgosi the word subordinate means Lotlamoreng II wanted to say someone in a junior position. something on this issue of When we talk about Councils, Subordinate Authority before I for instance, Kweneng District move to another one. Council, which was established KGOSI LOTLAMORENG by the Minister, it has a Sub II (BAROLONG): Thank you District Council at Letlhakeng. Mr Chairman. I request that we It is a Subordinate Authority use terms which Batswana will created by this institution being be conversant with. The term the Council. The other thing ‘Subordinate Authority’ should that was mentioned was Service be replaced with ‘Sub District’ Centres, they are within the Sub because from the Minister’s District and are established in explanation, Subordinate order to bring services closer to Authority is the same thing as the people. Let us take Letlhakeng Sub District. for example, to make things easier for people to get services such MR CHAIRMAN: I do not as water, revenue and license know if the explanation given by payments, a Service Centre can the Minister about Subordinate be established in Motokwe. So Authority and Sub District meant Service Centres fall within Sub the same thing, we need to move District and Sub District under forward. District Council. That is the structure Mr Chairman and it HONOURABLE SIELE: states that ‘Subordinate authority It is the same as Sub District means an institutional structure, but you will realise that from and in this case, Letlhakeng is an the recommendations made to institutional structure lower than the Government, in a village a Council and it is under Kweneng where there is a population of District Council, established by 25 000 or more, a Sub Council the Minister under Section 7. should be established but it

34 Tuesday 24th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate) will be called Administration we seem to have a problem with Authority. For instance, Kanye the word Subordinate. We know in Southern District Council has that Subordinate is the Sub an Administration Authority, Council but it seems like it does yet it is a Sub Council and it not sit well with Honourable has Councillors, Chairman Members, so maybe we could and committees which run that find a friendlier word. Thank you Administrative Authority. It Mr Chairman. remains a Sub Council as it has a fully fledged District Council. KGOSI TOTO II (KGALAGADI SOUTH): KGOSI MOETI II Thank you Mr Chairman. May (SPECIALLY ELECTED): the Honourable Minister clarify Thank you Mr Chairman. whether we will not have any Honourable Members have duplication if we have the main enquired about Sub and District Council and Sub District Subordinate but it is a self Council within the same village explanatory word, there is no or town? For example, we have use in substituting the word Kgalagadi District Council Subordinate with Sub while it as well as the Sub Council in is just one word and carries the Tsabong. What is the difference same meaning. Subordinate between the two, are they not Authority falls under District doing the same thing, and is it not Council. Maybe we need to better to establish a Sub District change our perspective about elsewhere than where the main this word because it seems like Council sits? A full Council we have a problem with it as will sit in one day and then the we think it is demeaning. The next day it is the Sub Council Police Office used to be called within the same village. Does Charge Office, this caused a lot this not cause confusion because of confusion as people thought in their sittings they discuss the that they will be charged even if same things? Thank you Mr they went to report matters. This Chairman. has been revised and made user friendly for the communities. HONOURABLE SIELE: Mr The Police Offices are now called Chairman the fact that Tsabong Community Service offices. I has an Administrative Authority think we could find a word which does not mean that its duties could be friendlier as well because are the same as that of Sub

35 Tuesday 24th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate)

Council. A Sub Council would definition of one word, and that have its Councillors, Council alone questions our knowledge Chairperson and committees. It of the structures. differs with the Administrative Authority where there is the KGOSI MOSADI SEBOKO: Council Chairperson and Council Thank you Mr Chairman. I Secretary. For administrative understand that you want us to convenience, let me just give you move forward but I would like to a very clear scenario. We have comment on the matter at hand. an Administrative Authority or Does the Minister believe that Sub District in Kanye. Kanye all the Councils in Botswana is the city or headquarters of must have Sub Councils? This the Southern District. There appears to be misuse of resources are offices in Kanye which are since most of the things that are occupied by Sub Council officers discussed at Sub Councils are and it could happen in any other also discussed at Councils; so do place with a similar case. Their we really need that Honourable functions are clearly defined Minister? Maybe Service Centres here, they have their duties to should be considered in place of perform, there is no duplication Sub Councils. The other issue is whatsoever and when the Sub the definition of township which Councils meet, they discuss is not quite clear. As Dikgosi, we issues under their jurisdiction guard against aspects which clash and when a fully fledged District with our culture and I feel we are Council sits, quarterly if I am deviating from our culture. Can not mistaken, only major policy the Minister explain in detail how issues concerning the entire a township is established because district are discussed. That is the we have different townships but situation. We have well defined the clause does not reflect the functions of the Sub Council establishment of such? Thank as well as of those of the fully you Mr Chairman. fledged Council. There is no KGOSI RAMOKWENA: confusion whatsoever. Thank Thank you Mr Chairman. We you Mr Chairman. have taken time in seeking MR CHAIRMAN: Let me clarification on the word request that we make progress Subordinate Authority, Mr in our debate because I can see Chairman; we cannot say that our focus now is on the ‘Sub Authority’ but rather say

36 Tuesday 24th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate)

‘Subordinate Authority’. I am of the Constitution. So for us to do the idea that these Subordinate that, we will have to think twice Authorities should be established as to whether the nation should in smaller villages, for instance, be consulted on this matter or in Maun area, it will be better not. If Bogosi is displaced, all placed in Sehithwa. These villages under the leadership Subordinate Authorities will then of Bogosi will suffer because be in a position to discuss issues they shall remain under that at their level which will then be leadership. That is why it has passed to District Council for been decided in the second Local approval. As Kgosi Mosadi has Government Commission that all already stated, we cannot afford villages that have a population of to have Sub Authorities and more than 20 000 will have an District Councils in the same area administrative authority, together because it is a waste of resources. with the Council and Bogosi. Thank you Mr Chairman. Basing on the developments that are there in an area, the Minister MR CHAIRMAN: I do not can declare that area a township think the gist of the matter is to after consulting with the relevant debate on their locations because parties. Let us take Tlokweng for that will not be for us to decide, example; it will forever remain a nevertheless I have noted that. Setswana set up kind of a village Honourable Minister there was even though Gaborone city is another question on definition of extending towards it and all the townships. developments. There is no how the Batlokwa village can be HONOURABLE SIELE: Mr established a township. It will Chairman, from yesterday’s remain as it is, a village set up, debate, I have noticed that being run by Kgosi and having Honourable Members are Dikgotla. It does not mean that concerned that somewhere along all the villages surrounding the way Bogosi will be sidelined Gaborone will be declared when the Minister establishes townships, just because they have townships in their areas. Let taxis, sewerage lines and street me make this clear that there lights. These are the facilities that is no how the Government can we need to have in villages as we displace what the Constitution have to be at par with the current of Botswana has established. developments. We need to have Bogosi has been established by well structured roads and street

37 Tuesday 24th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate) lights in major villages but it will we need developments and the not mean that we are displacing people want to be provided with Bogosi in any way, even the services. When the time comes second Local Government for an area to be established a Structure Commission does not township, then it will not be provide for the displacement of a problem since the Minister Bogosi. Furthermore, we have has noted that constitutionally, different projects which we will Bogosi will not be displaced run, let us take an example, if a in any way when establishing piece of land which was meant such. Proper consultation will be for agriculture could be turned done basing on the blue print. I into a township, this will be done understand you Minister and I in consultation with the people concur with you. Thank you. who are Members of a particular village near that township PROCEEDINGS which is to be established. Mr SUSPENDED FOR Chairman, this Bill is not aiming APPROXIMATELY 25 at displacing our villages and MINUTES establishing townships. Thank MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI you Mr Chairman. GABORONE): Let me greet KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH you once more Honourable EAST): Thank you Mr Members. Let us proceed with Chairman. Let me also greet our business and please let us take this Honourable House. Mr into consideration the workload Chairman, we have understood before us as we do that. When the Honourable Minister, but we adjourned, we were on the there is a saying which goes like Interpretation Clause. I believe this; ‘in times of peace, prepare the Minister has already clarified for war’, meaning that at times we some aspects relating to it. make laws with the intention to KGOSI MALEMA accommodate the future. In most (BOBIRWA REGION): cases things do not go according Thank you Mr Chairman, for to plan but I have confidence in the opportunity to debate on the what the Honourable Minister Bill which we started yesterday. has said and I hope that other Mr Chairman, I am not against incoming Ministers will have what this Bill is advocating the same understanding as him. for basing on the fact that we I think the bottom line is that have to preserve Bogosi as it

38 Tuesday 24th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate) is our tradition. We have to KGOSI MOSADI SEBOKO: consider developments as well Thank you Mr Chairman. Can I because Bogosi cannot deny the clarify something? Maybe what community the privilege to have I have said somehow derailed developments but at the same some Members; I had wanted time ensuring that our culture is the Minister to define the word not lost so as to avoid misleading township under Clause 8. On the coming generation. We have the other hand it is stated that spoken at length on this issue the Minister can declare an area Honourable Members but we a township when he sees fit. In should look into how Bogosi will the Minister’s explanation, he fit in these developments because included the Bogosi aspect from they come in so many ways and yesterday’s debate but my focus may have implications. Back in was not on that rather on the the days, Dikgosi had the powers definition of township. Thank to rule, but that has changed and you Mr Chairman. now they do not. KGOSI MALEMA: Thank you MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi Mr Chairman. I am of the view Malema, please address Bogosi that we should adopt the proposal in terms of the current Clause, as it is from the Minister because definition. You seem to be I see it as a development for the addressing Bogosi in general, country. That is all. which of the Clauses do you relate that to Kgosi Malema? MR CHAIRMAN: The reason why I interrupted you Kgosi KGOSI MALEMA: It relates to Malema was because I wanted the Clause we are dealing with to understand what you wanted right now. us to agree on. You seem to be more focused on Bogosi than MR CHAIRMAN: Please focus what we are debating right now. your debate on what we are doing What should we agree on Kgosi right now. Malema?

KGOSI MALEMA: I am of KGOSI MALEMA: Thank the opinion that we should you. I want us to agree on what agree to this proposal that the this Bill is proposing; that Government wants for the sake of Sub Councils be established the development of this country. in different areas more so that the Minister has stated that it

39 Tuesday 24th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate) is possible for a township to be can hinder that? I thank you Mr established in every village. I Chairman. concur with that because I do not see any problem. MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable Members, we have spent so much KGOSI MACHILIDZA time on the Interpretation Clause (BOTETI REGION): Thank yet some of the things have been you Mr Chairman. There is clarified. Let me request that as progression in what we are doing we debate, let us shelve other and as Dikgosi we can see where ideas to use at the resolution this is going and we have to stage, whatever we have; we can correct some things. Words such reserve it or put in writing. We as Subordinate are not courteous. should not dwell much on only We have a more respective way of one issue otherwise we will not saying things without undermining finish this Bill. We still have to anyone especially since we know come up with the resolution. Let that subordinates are juniors and us also recall that we considered they differ from others in terms of this Bill before, some of the ranks. We are very much aware Clauses have not changed and that the affairs of this country are some we have made a resolution run by politicians and the Minister on. We should therefore consider being a politician, has been given that fact and not dwell much on the power to declare an area a one issue. Let us move on to township, that is a good thing and the next section and leave the it should continue. We should bear Interpretation section. in mind that the law is not made overnight and can be changed any Part II time. Some of us are from villages Establishment of Councils and that are Sub Districts of main Subordinate Authorities District Councils. It is apparent that the Minister can declare Clause 3 - Establishment of places townships but I did not see Councils anything in the Constitution that allows the Minister to declare MR CHAIRMAN: If there is a Sub District a fully fledged anyone who wants to comment District. Since he has the power on Clause 3, they should show to declare a township, why is the by raising their hands. Consider same not being applied with Sub other sections, their relevance to Districts, is there anything that the Clauses and their relationship

40 Tuesday 24th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate) to the Constitution. This one to how this establishment will be explains that the Minister may, done, whether it will be through by order published in the Gazette, consultation or not. We would establish a Council in respect of like to have proper consultations such area as the Minister may when this is done so that the consider appropriate. Minister does not do it alone. Thank you Mr Chairman. KGOSI NDZONGA (TUTUME REGION): Thank KGOSI KAHIKO III you Mr Chairman. I do not know (GHANZI WEST REGION): if I have skipped clauses, Part It is stated that, ‘The Minister III sub clause ii, I am not sure may’, that means it does not if there has been an omission, bind him. Who else will have the when decisions are taken, powers to establish a Council? consultations... The appropriate word should be ‘shall’, if there is no other person MR CHAIRMAN: Part II Clause who can establish the Councils. 3. I need comments on Clause 3: Establishment of Councils. KGOSI TOTO II (KGALAGADI SOUTH): Thank HONOURABLE MEMBER: you Mr Chairman. I propose that …whenever decisions are taken, on the statement, “The Minister consultations… may establish a Council”, we should also amend by inserting MR CHAIRMAN: …Clause this phrase; “The Minister may 3… upgrade a Sub District into a HONOURABLE MEMBER: fully-fledged District.” Thank …Part II - Clause 3: I wanted you Mr Chairman. to comment on Clause 3 - MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable Establishment of Councils. Minister, is there anything you KGOSI POTSOENG (NGAMI would like to clarify? There was REGION): I had wanted to a comment on the use of ‘shall’ comment on Clause 3 but we have and ‘may’. passed it. It says “The Minister HONOURABLE SIELE: Thank may, by order published in the you Mr Chairman. The use of Gazette, establish a Council in these two words is different when respect of such area as the Minister used as legal terms. The word may consider appropriate”. The ‘shall’ is mandatory but ‘may’ other day, we were not sure as

41 Tuesday 24th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate) gives room for anything that could Clause 4 - Council for each happen. These are two different Administrative District words but the Parliamentary Counsel can explain them Clause 5 - Restructuring of better. On the the one regarding Councils. establishment of Sub District KGOSI BOIDITSWE into a fully fledged Council, it is (SEROWE REGION): Mr addressed in Clause 5 which talks Chairman, I suggest that we add about restructuring of Councils, it ‘Bogosi and the community’ includes the consultative process because it states that, “the Minister which Honourable Members shall after consultation with are advocating for. The one Council and the community”. I which deals with restructuring do not think that the community of Councils where the Minister can be consulted in the absence can use his powers to upgrade of Bogosi. This is to avoid any a Sub District to a fully fledged future problems that might arise. District, the word used there is Thank you. restructuring and the Sub District can be upgraded and be given KGOSI GAREBAKWENA more powers. So it is still to come (MOLEPOLOLE REGION): in other clauses. Thank you Mr Thank you Mr Chairman. In Chairman. Clause 5, we could add Kgosi Toto II’s suggestion so that it MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you. I reads, ‘by order published in the do not know if the Parliamentary Gazette sub-divide, merge or Counsel has something to say upgrade Sub Councils into fully with regards to the use of the fledged Council’. Thank you Sir. words ‘shall’ and ‘may.’ KGOSI POTSOENG: Clause 4 ACTING PARLIAMENTARY states that, ‘Subject to provisions of COUNSEL (MS Subsection (2), upon restructuring MUKONGWA): Thank you of the Council in accordance with Mr Chairman. Ms Morolong is the provision of Subsection (1), all assisting the Minister on the Bill, Members holding office in existing and if she has anything to clarify, Council shall cease to hold office.’ she will do so. My question is, what becomes of MR CHAIRMAN: If that has those officers who were holding been clarified, then we can move office in the existing Council upon on. restructuring of the Council?

42 Tuesday 24th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate)

MR CHAIRMAN: All law. We cannot say that Bogosi comments are noted and I believe has been left out. We know that the Minister is noting and very well that communities are will respond accordingly. led by Dikgosi and therefore they follow all the procedures KGOSI MACHILIDZA guided by Bogosi institution. (BOTETI REGION): Thank We should not be afraid of you Mr Chairman. I am not a law anything. I mentioned earlier on expert, so I do not understand that we have the Constitution. what is happening between a Sub But, do not misinterpret what Council, fully fledged Council I said because we do not know and a Sub District. This is very what tomorrow holds for us. technical; it appears like Councils Looking at the way our current have been upgraded leaving Sub Constitution has been structured, Districts behind. When you talk there is no how, except under about a fully fledged Council, extenuating circumstances, it does it also incorporate the can be restructured in such a way Sub- District of that particular that it will overlook the current Council? Maybe we always talk laws. Every law that is made in of the development of Councils a country should be in line with administratively and leave the Constitution, if not it will behind Sub Districts. Can it be be what they call ultra vires of clarified if these two are at the the Constitution. Currently Mr same level? We should be sure of Chairman, Clause 5 is straight the arrangement which is going forward and it is explained to crop up here. Thank you Mr further as we move along Chairman. with the Clauses of this Bill. Consultation is also explained MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable in detail, therefore there should Minister, there are comments be no fears. Earlier on when on Clause 5. Would you like to we talked about the policies respond? that guide townships and urban HONOURABLE SIELE: Mr areas, Members seemed to have Chairman, these words have the problems with the procedures same meaning but it seems we because there is a difference in want to break them into finer the administration of these two. little details which will make We do not have to worry about it difficult and cumbersome anything at the moment because when it comes to compiling the this is not the first time this Bill

43 Tuesday 24th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate) has been tabled for consideration KGOSI MOSADI SEBOKO and the resolution was considered (BALETE): Thank you Mr so as to address any hiccup that Chairman. For us to be assured might be there. that there is no one who is being undermined can we understand MR CHAIRMAN: There is a why ‘c” for Council is written on question Honourable Minister on capital letters while community 5 (4), Kgosi wanted clarification is started on a small letter yet on what will happen to those who the Minister claims Bogosi is hold office. included in the community, why can we not be made equal HONOURABLE SIELE: and a capital letter be used just Thank you Mr Chairman. When as it is done for others, because restructuring occurs, there ‘Minister’ is started with a capital are people who hold different letter. Maybe I do not understand positions and these positions English but we have to believe will be put according to their that everything is being done hierarchical structure. If there are in good faith. Thank you Mr positions which the department Chairman. does not need, then those people will cease to hold office and they KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH will be placed in other appropriate EAST REGION): Thank you structures where their positions Mr Chairman. Still on Clause 5 will fit. That is what happens in a (2), it states that there will be a restructuring process. Thank you transfer of assets and liabilities of Mr Chairman. the Sub divide Council to the new Council established in place of a KGOSI KGARI III Council or Councils. A Council (BAKWENA): Thank you Mr is a corporate body which I Chairman. On the last point that believe can take decisions on the Minister explained, it states anything. If all those assets and that ‘all Members holding office liabilities will be moved to a Sub in an existing Council…’, when I divide Council, do we liquidate look at the interpretation section everything first or we transfer a ‘Member’ means both elected all these liabilities to the Council and nominated Members, to me it that has been established through sounds more like politicians and merging or subdividing? Will the Councillors, I need clarification new corporate body, just accept on that. the liabilities? Thank you.

44 Tuesday 24th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate)

MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable HONOURABLE SIELE: Minister, can you respond to Members refers to Councillors those briefly please. as defined. Therefore if a Sub Council is upgraded then it means HONOURABLE SIELE: that Councillors will be operating Mr Chairman, those two under the new establishment of words are used under different a fully fledged District Council. circumstances. There is a If I could just cite an example process involved in liquidating Mr Chairman, if Bobirwa, as an organisation depending on a Sub Council or Subordinate the reasons for liquidation. It is Authority becomes a full-fledged a completely different process council, then the Councillors from restructuring. Restructuring will no longer be operating involves upgrading maybe a under Subordinate Authority Subordinate Authority to a higher but rather they will form part of level or improve its services and the new establishment. Let me upgrade its procedures. This is give a living example, Chobe why we say that the assets and District was a North West Sub liabilities will be transferred Council since independence. to the upgraded entity. If that Councillors operated from Chobe Subordinate Authority is a and Maun but after the Second fully fledged District Council, Local Government Structure with the Council Secretary and Commission the Chobe Council all structures which are found became a fully fledged District within a Council, all the assets and the Councillors took the and liabilities will be transferred Chobe District Council positions. to that new structure. Assets like These are real examples we can vehicles and computers will still benchmark from. Thank you Mr remain the same, whether they Chairman. will be used in a Subordinate Authority or in a full-fledged KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II authority. Thank you Mr (BAROLONG): Mr Chairman, I Chairman. am getting confused, are we talking about Councillors or officers? MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable Earlier on it was mentioned Minister, could you address the that officers will be posted to one regarding ‘Members’ on 5 appropriate establishments if (4) which Kgosi Kgari III sought their posts did not fit in the new clarification on. establishment, now I do not

45 Tuesday 24th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate) understand what we are talking KGOSI BOIDITSWE about, can I get clarification on (SEROWE REGION): Thank that. If there has been a mistake of you Mr Chairman. On this using the word ‘Member’ instead Clause, the word ‘sue’ or ‘sued’ of ‘officer’ please let that mistake is used. I would like to know if be rectified. This is an easy thing there was no better word to use to do rather than having to wonder other that this one. The Minister who moves with their posts as we stated that we are breaking these are aware that Councillors do not terms into unnecessary finer have posts. little details but that is how we understand them. I always hear MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable people saying that they want Minister, are we talking about to sue others for defamation of Councillors or officers on this character or something like that. Clause? The definition defines If I have committed fraud within members as Councillors. I Council and it takes me to court believe that is what Kgosi or vice versa, will I be sued or sue Kgari III wanted clarification them, is it the right term to use? on. Honourable Minister, you mentioned that upon HONOURABLE MEMBERS restructuring, Members will be : ... (Inaudible)... placed in appropriate structures; could you clarify the definition KGOSI BOIDITSWE: That of the word ‘Members’? is the problem with words; I have a different understanding HONOURABLE SIELE: Thank of the word ‘sue’. Why would you Mr Chairman. ‘Members’ Council sue me because if I had we are referring to Councillors committed any fraud they just but earlier on when I talked about have to take me to court? Thank restructuring, I took restructuring you. in the broader context but here we are specifically talking about KGOSI MACHILIDZA Councillors, ‘Members ’ being (BOTETI REGION): Can I referred to means Councillors. react to that before the Minister responds? In most instances, MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you for tenders, there are companies Honourable Minister. with which the Council signs agreements for supplies and if 6 - Councils to be bodies there is a breach of contract, corporate then the Council could sue that

46 Tuesday 24th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate) company or the Council could could be other reasons to establish be sued if the fault is within the a township, some of which I Council. I do not see that word fail to understand. What are the as a problem. Thank you Mr reasons that will render a place Chairman. like Ga Malete for example to be turned into a township, would it KGOSI MOETI II be for developmental purposes? (SPECIALLY ELECTED): Establishing a township would Thank you Mr Chairman let me mean that provision of housing request that we go back to Clause and other services. I take it that 6. Councils and Land boards have plans for their villages in terms MR CHAIRMAN: If there is of where an industrial area will nothing on Clause 6 we can move be established and other things. on. I believe Kgosi Boiditswe’s My request is that we should concern has been addressed. not rush to establish townships 7 - Establishment of but instead concentrate on Subordinate Authorities developing villages. Factories should be built in such areas and 8 - Declaration of township employment opportunities will be created. I do not dispute the KGOSI MOSADI SEBOKO fact that we have problems in (BALETE): Thank you Mr villages but they are minimal and Chairman. Pardon me if I am still manageable as compared delaying this House. I want the to those found in townships. Minister to understand that my Let us consider Clause 8 and concern was not about Bogosi but suggest to the Government that I had wanted to understand what it should establish townships in a township is. I know that in the mining areas and that in villages old Act, places which had mines it should be development and were the ones where townships employment opportunities for were established. Since the mines the betterment of the lives of the themselves cannot be moved, people in those villages. Thank people had to relocate to the you Mr Chairman. mines to seek employment and therefore accommodation and KGOSI GAREBAKWENA other services have to be provided (MOLEPOLOLE REGION): for those people. According to Thank you Mr Chairman. We the Minister’s explanation, there are concerned about reasons for

47 Tuesday 24th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate) the establishment of townships should be defined. How will these as much as Kgosi Seboko is. Let township boundaries be defined, me give an example, it can be will it be through land board or arranged for an area which has Council? What technique will be raw materials to be turned into used to declare these township an industrial area where people boundaries to avoid existing could migrate to, for employment. conflicts found within the existing Apart from mines, those industrial establishments? Thank you. areas can attract people and a township will be established KGOSI LEMPADI around them. If the Minister (OKAVANGO REGION): understands our concerns, maybe Thank you Mr Chairman. I he could explain whether he will be brief with regards to agrees with the example I have establishment of townships in just cited or he could propose village settings. I do not think other reasons which may call for it is necessary to establish the establishment of a township, townships everywhere rather the explanation should clear the than developing those villages confusion that might occur in the and providing necessary services future. Thank you. and resources. Let industrial areas be established within an KGOSI BOIDITSWE Administrative District to avoid (SEROWE REGION): Mr establishing townships within the Chairman, it is stated that same village, something which ‘the Minister shall define the will bring about unnecessary boundaries of that township’ and conflicts. I am not of the idea that I am a bit concerned about that. townships should be established We have traditional, political within villages. Thank you Mr and land board boundaries and Chairman. we always have a problem in identifying where the other KGOSI MONNAATHEBE boundary starts and where the (THAMAGA REGION): other ends. For example, if the Thank you Mr Chairman. On land board was to be asked the establishment of a township where the Kweneng boundary within any Administrative and Ngwaketse boundary part, District, Mr Chairman we have they would not know. It is stated always said that a nation without that if a place is to be declared culture is lost. Villages are the a township, then the boundaries most vital places to preserve

48 Tuesday 24th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate) culture and we have to see to it far I will go with my comments. that they are developed. If there Thank you Mr Chairman. is need for those developments, they should be done after KGOSI MOETI II consultation with both Kgosi (SPECIALLY ELECTED): and the Councillor. Our people Thank you Mr Chairman. Let me will have employment at home refer back to what the Honourable and would not have to migrate Minister said. He said that we to other places to seek jobs. should not be scared of the new Establishing townships within developments. I want to concur an Administrative District could with the Minister and if he has cause us more trouble as we understood our concerns, we already have challenges which I should not be worried because will not outline in this House. Let some Dikgosi have doubts when the Government take its initiative we talk about townships. The to develop villages, together Minister clarified that the Bogosi with Bogosi as promised and has been established through the create employment opportunities Constitution, there should not be for the residents. Honourable any fears that it may be negatively Members, Bogosi is the pillar affected by these things. Can the of this nation and for us to agree Minister explain the economical to the fact that townships should benefits of townships? He should be established then we would be further state the anticipated calling for problems in the future challenges to be expected and we will not be able to control our plans to address them. A typical communities. All we need is the township setup would be in a developments and provision of place like Maun for example. services in our villages. This is We know that with the township what we should be advocating situation, crime rate may for as the advisory body to the increase, what measures are in Government, and we should place to address the situation. We advise the Government because could rest assured if the Minister at the end of the day the whole could clarify these aspects. thing will hit back at us. We have Personally I have no problem to stand our ground and decide with any place being established on what we want. We have to a township because they bring preserve our culture. I am not developments. We should not against developments, but let it be against these developments. be done properly. That is how Thank you Mr Chairman.

49 Tuesday 24th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate)

KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II the day what is it that we want; (BAROLONG): Thank you Mr is it our status or the welfare of Chairman. There is no how we the communities we lead. In cannot be concerned though the townships, people who bring Minister advises otherwise; we these industries are foreigners should express our concerns Mr and they have their own cultures Chairman. Right now it is being and practices. Mr Chairman, and said that the whole arrangement when these investors are told will not affect Bogosi and I know that they are going to operate on that we are saying this right now communal land, they may not but we do not know what will want to invest in this country. We happen later. Mr Chairman, should look at things broadly, among all the places declared in terms of job creation and the townships we do not have proper development of the country. I Bogosi. Let us take Kasane, am not saying that we should Ghanzi, Jwaneng and Selebi displace Bogosi but we should Phikwe for example, they have look at how many people will been declared townships and they be affected at the end of the are all lead by Court Presidents. day. These developments could All these villages have tribal assist the Government in terms communities despite the fact of employment creation and tax that they have been established payments. Let us not hold on to the townships. The next thing we old ways of doing things, we are will have places like Palapye in a developing era, we have lost being made a township and then so many powers Mr Chairman; it would call for a Court President land allocation, administration as well. I wanted to demonstrate of corporal punishment on the that we cannot just sit and not air back, just to mention a few. We our concerns because we have cannot shun developments. I actual examples. Thank you. am of the view that we should let townships be established. KGOSI MACHILIDZA It does not change anything (BOTETI REGION): Thank but rather bring developments you Mr Chairman. We are all in a village, Bogosi will still aware that townships are lead be there to maintain order and by Court Presidents. Honourable safety. We should not only focus Members, let us consider some on developing cities because aspects, as Dikgosi and leaders developments are focused on of communities, at the end of those areas only. I think as talks

50 Tuesday 24th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate) with these industrial owners are can still lead in that setup rather held, they can mention some than having Court Presidents and things which could benefit us as Deputy Court Presidents like we well, we have to survive and we have in townships. Thank you have to find means of doing that. Mr Chairman We know that people migrate from villages to cities; it is now KGOSI KAHIKO III (GHANZI time for people to be anchored. WEST REGION): Thank We cannot focus only on the you Mr Chairman. Honourable aspect being that if we allow Members, we are discussing this to happen Bogosi will be a Bill which is going to be in affected; let us also look at the use for six years without being brighter side of it. Thank you Mr amended, therefore we should Chairman. consider the consequences even for the future generation. I do KGOSI TSHIPE understand and appreciate that it (MAHALAPYE REGION): is possible to establish townships Thank you Mr Chairman. I within villages but there are do have my own perspective repercussions as well. We should regarding the issue of townships be careful in everything that we unless I do not understand. The do to avoid any conflict with Honourable Minister said that the law in the long run. As it is, an Administrative Authority the Minister has the power to may be established in a place establish Serowe for example, like Kanye for example, by so as a township and the outcome doing, I believe that the village of consultation cannot bind him would develop into a town. If to take such decisions. It is up to that arrangement could be made him to establish a township and then it would ease the concern gazette it, these are the things of trying to displace Bogosi, we should pay attention to when more so that an Administrative considering this Bill. I said Authority carries all the services this yesterday and I will say it found in a township setup. If we again there is a lot of confusion could look at it that way, then we here. There was no consultation will not have doubts, we could when Ghanzi was turned into use Administrative Authority a township and Bogosi setup context in villages rather than changed altogether. Right establishing townships since it now Dikgosi in Ghanzi have a is a different system. Bogosi retirement age of 60. Therefore

51 Tuesday 24th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate) when we consider this Bill, let of townships more so that there us consider the implications are some Members who have of establishing townships. pointed out the problems they Mr Chairman, it is upon the have experienced with the said Government to ensure that every proposal. If we take Kanye for Motswana gets the services they example, and establish it as a need in their areas. A place does township, will the community not have to be a township for agree to all this Mr Chairman? developments to be availed. Let The developments can be us correct this Clause because made within villages and plots the regulations that were used to be demarcated to allow for run Councils clearly stated the developments such as sewerage principles that were followed lines and electricity, that I do not to establish a township, so we dispute but I do not agree to the should refer to it, adopt as well establishment of townships. Mr as develop it where there is need. Chairman, I am concerned about Some of these proposals bring the said boundaries. The Deputy nothing but confusion. Right Chairman has already given now, we do not understand the examples; Dikgosi do not have situation in Ghanzi as we have any powers over townships, they the Court President and Council are restricted to their villages Chairman. We have to balance only. With those boundaries, everything so that we can all be it will restrict the leadership of in the same boat. I thank you Mr Bogosi within their villages. Chairman. Dikgosi will be informed that they lead a portion of the village, MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you, not the other part, something that Kgosi Kahiko. should not be happening. Thank you Mr Chairman. KGOSI TELEKELO (MOSHUPA REGION): Thank MR CHAIRMAN: I hope you Mr Chairman. I believe whatever ideas we have, we keep that villages should be left as them for the resolution stage. I do they are and not established as not want us to debate something townships. Developments can be that will not be included in our made in those villages without resolution. Let us remember that necessarily establishing them as what we say should be reflected townships. I fail to understand the in the resolution of this House. reason behind this establishment

52 Tuesday 24th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate)

KGOSI RAMOKWENA MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you (MAUN REGION): Thank Kgosi Ramokwena. Members you. There are various reasons are asking questions about this which determine an area to be Clause, maybe the Minister established a township and we do should clarify the reasons for an not understand some of them. Let area to be declared a township. me take Maun for example, we may be occupying an area which HONOURABLE SIELE: has a lot of natural resources Mr Chairman, development is that can take our village to the dynamic; social, political and greatest heights by establishing it cultural. There are steps involved a township. So, our Government when it comes to development; should prepare in advance for we have talked about mining such situations. If a township development in Jwaneng, is established, what happens to Sowa and Selebi Phikwe Bogosi institution, which has been townships. There are some other established by the Constitution? developments in some other We know that the Bogosi setup places within the Administrative changes when a township is Districts and not within existing established, Court Presidents villages. Mr Chairman, we could take over. We have to be well have a situation where you have prepared for those situations an agricultural development or otherwise it would seem like we agro commercial development. In are playing hide and seek. We some other places, for example, can start preparing well in time there will be other developments to avoid any conflicts because where people will relocate to townships bring a lot of changes that particular area and there to the law and other procedures. will be no Bogosi in that area Like Kgosi Machilidza pointed then consultations could be made out, we want developments and regarding... we cannot stop them. We have KGOSI MOSADI SEBOKO: to accept that when minerals Thank you Mr Chairman. The are found within our villages, Minister should understand we cannot hinder developments. that in Botswana, Dikgosi are That is why I feel the Government involved everywhere; be it should come up with a way that grazing land, ploughing fields involves all stakeholders so that or the forests, it falls within no one feels left out. Thank you the tribal territory of that tribal Mr Chairman.

53 Tuesday 24th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate) community. I wanted to explain for example, every township has that the existing land boards have its own reasons for having been the powers to allocate land, either established therefore, we should industrial or residential areas and not compare them to any other that is where the developments Administrative Authority. could be. Every tribal territory has a land board, Bogosi and If we do that, we would be the community to run it. The rewriting history in a different place being declared a township way. Mr Chairman, like you have remains under Bogosi and it said earlier on, at the end of it all, should not be said that there will the House will come up with a be no Bogosi in that area. Thank resolution which the Government you Mr Chairman. will consider. This Bill is here to be considered by both Members HONOURABLE SIELE: of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi and Members Thank you Mr Chairman. I of Parliament as we are doing might have used a provocative right now. Maybe this House word. I meant that where there could come up with a resolution is no village and developments which will get rid of any doubts are brought there, then Bogosi we have regarding displacement could consult and agree that the of Bogosi. I assure this House land be established a township, that there is no intention just like it was done with the whatsoever at this present time, Jwaneng and Selebi Phikwe to displace Bogosi. All the townships, Bogosi in that area developments will be carried out was consulted. I am aware that after consultations with Bogosi. in most cases Bogosi allocate a That is why I talked about Agro piece of land for development. Commercial development in any Mr Chairman, we have to look Administrative District where at the current situation and we people live there for employment should not only look at the fact purposes. When the commercial that the Government wants to area expands in terms of displace Bogosi in any way, we population then the place can be just have to face reality, even established a township and then our culture has transformed from boundaries can be agreed upon, where it was to date. Some of just like it has happened with the reasons we have given do other Administrative Districts. not necessarily apply to different Thank you Mr Chairman. situations, Chobe and Ghanzi

54 Tuesday 24th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate)

PROCEEDINGS Bogosi were left out when other SUSPENDED FOR LUNCH services were transferred to the Central Government, clinics for MR CHAIRMAN: Let us example. This brought about continue from where we left off chaos but if proper consultation before we adjourned for lunch. had been done, this situation We were at Clause 8, part 2 of could have been avoided. Let the Local Government Bill. The that aspect regarding consultation Minister had already ironed out with the community and Kgosi some of the concerns raised by be included. Thank you Mr Members. Before we move on, Chairman. let me remind Members that we still have another Bill to consider MR CHAIRMAN: There is no before the end of the week. comment on Clause 10, let us Therefore we have to consider proceed. the time factor as we debate this Bill. Let me reiterate what I have 11 - Functions and General said this morning, that all the Powers of Council ideas we have should form part KGOSI NDZONGA (TUTUME of our resolution. I believe we REGION): This is actually what understand each other. I commented on in Clause 10. 9. Conferment of City Status I had wanted to comment on Clause 11; powers and duties. Part 3-Powers and Duties of Council MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi Ndzonga, you want to confuse 10- General Duties of Council. me, which of the Clauses would you like to comment on, 10 or 11- Functions and General 11? You commented on 10 and Powers of Council. now you are saying Clause 11.

KGOSI NDZONGA (TUTUME KGOSI NDZONGA: I would REGION): Thank you Mr like to comment on Clause 11, Chairman. I am concerned about Mr Chairman. the transfer of powers of the Council. I have realised that though MR CHAIRMAN: So what you the consultation is done, it is only said at Clause 10 was misplaced? with the Subordinate Authority We are done with Clause 10. and the Council, leaving out the Now we move on to Clause 11, community. The community and Kgosi Ndzonga.

55 Tuesday 24th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate)

KGOSI NDZONGA: Mr they are aware of what happens, Chairman, I had wanted maybe the problem is that we do to comment on Clause 11. not have enough transport for When powers and duties consultation purposes. Thank were transferred, no proper you. consultation was made and this brought about chaos. Just to cite KGOSI LEMPADI an example, the taking over of (OKAVANGO): Thank you clinics to Central Government. Mr Chairman. This is a very This brought about chaos to the important Clause Mr Chairman. point where there was shortage Transfer of powers or services of transport, medicine and even needs proper consultation, staff. Let that be rectified by even if this was brought to this consulting the community and House, it would have been more Kgosi. Thank you. appropriate if the relevant people could have been consulted, the MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you community. They should have Kgosi Ndzonga. known what will happen before the whole thing was put forward. KGOSI MACHILIDZA The people should be consulted on (BOTETI REGION): Thank such issues especially a big body you Mr Chairman. I do not like that one being transferred want to respond on behalf of to the Central Government. The the Minister. Maybe we forget community should have been so easily but I think that the properly consulted not in the way transfer of clinics from the Ntlo Ya Dikgosi was. Thank you Council to Central Government Mr Chairman. was presented to this House and we agreed to it, the Minister MR CHAIRMAN: Are there was present during those any more comments on Clause deliberations. Dr Margaret Nasha 11? even encouraged this House to consult and have feedback but KGOSI TOTO II we seem to have forgeten some (KGALAGADI SOUTH): of the things because it has been Thank you Mr Chairman. If the a long time. Therefore if we are Council does not execute or told something at Ministerial perform its duties or functions, level, we should be able to what action is taken against consult our communities so that them?

56 Tuesday 24th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate)

MR CHAIRMAN: I do not talking from experience and know if the Minister wants to it calls for us to consult both clarify some of the issues raised Bogosi and the community on by Members. I believe that issues concerning the community as Members debate, they are in future. As we move along with considering the document they this Bill, there is a part stating were given regarding specific that Dikgosi will be ex-officio changes to the Bill. There is an Members in Districts and Sub aspect which has been added Districts so that they participate from the last time we considered in all the decisions taken by the this Bill, I hope Members have Council regarding developments. noted that. They will have the right to advise the Council even though HONOURABLE SIELE: the ex- officio Members do not Thank you Mr Chairman. Some have powers to vote but there of the issues raised by Kgosi is procedure which will assist fall under the dissolution of in them having an influence in Councils Clause where it states the developmental programmes that, ‘where the Councils fail to in their regions. Thank you Mr hold three consecutive ordinary Chairman. meetings, where there is a serious financial...’ and so forth, MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you it states the action to be taken Honourable Minister. Let us pass against the Council in the event Clause 11. that it fails to perform within the framework of the functions it has Clause 12 – Entry into been constituted to perform. We contract will deal with this issue when we There is nothing. get to that Clause Mr Chairman. Honourable Members have raised Part 4 – Constitution of Councils the issue of consultation but it has and Subordinate been encompassed in this Bill so Authorities that if there is anything, then the community should be consulted. Clause 13 Concerning the issue of transfer KGOSI KGARI III of clinics, it is a point taken that (BAKWENA): Thank you indeed proper consultation was Mr Chairman. I would like to not done. Mr Chairman, once comment on Clause 13 basing bitten twice shy, Members are on the resolution we made

57 Tuesday 24th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate) on this Bill last year. At the within which the Subordinate bottom it states that, “Kgosi or Authority headquarters is situated. Moemela Kgosi from the area In our last sitting we had pointed within the Subordinate Authority out that we have scenarios where headquarter is situated”. To me, there are areas which do not have it appears like our resolution kgosikgolo. We had this concern was accepted but the problem in our last sitting that we find is that it is not exactly the way ourselves unable to fit in when we had proposed it because it the Council sits at headquarters only includes Kgosi from the like Kgalagadi and North East. area where the Sub Council This point has been corrected headquarters is situated. Mr at Subordinate Council level Chairman, I think that when it is but not at Kgalagadi and North presented like this, it is restrictive East Councils. I do not think because in cases where there are you looked into these two (2) 2 or 3 Baemela Kgosi in an area, Councils when you considered only 1 of them will have the others Honourable Minister. chance to sit with the Council. It is indeed true that a Member There are many responsibilities of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi from the which need the participation District attends but when the of Dikgosi and if this Clause Council is sitting, Kgosi who allowed, Dikgosi could sit with oversees everything in the area different bodies such as the should also be included. We had land board and Council. I am requested at our last sitting for concerned because I feel that that consideration to be made. it is restrictive, maybe it could Maybe there are reasons which be drafted in such a way that made it impossible to make that it remains flexible. However, consideration. Thank you Mr I thank the Government for Chairman. accepting our resolution and making it part of this Bill. Thank MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you, you Mr Chairman. Kgosi.

KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH KGOSI MACHILIDZA EAST): Thank you Mr Chairman. (BOTETI REGION): Thank I would like to add on to what you Mr Chairman. I would like to Kgosi Kgari III has just said. comment on Clause 13, Sub clause The Clause talks about Kgosi or 1 which states that the Council Moemela Kgosi from the area shall consist of elected and

58 Tuesday 24th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate) specially nominated Members. MR CHAIRMAN: I do not As a democratic nation, I think know if the Minister would like it is about time we considered to clarify anything on Clause 13. whether we still need the specially nominated Councillors because HONOURABLE SIELE: Thank Batswana have the power to vote you Mr Chairman. This is a very for their Councillors. I therefore complex matter especially on the do not understand why we still side of development. There are a have them, on what grounds are lot of reasons to consider when they nominated and how do they nomination takes place. People function. I believe that if it was vote during elections but there are just after independence, we would instances when certain groups in understand because most people the society are left out; we have then did not have enough skills. the disadvantaged, those who have Let us do away with the specially certain qualifications and gender nominated Councillors because considerations. These are some of it will ultimately derail us. We the things that are considered, just already had our population census like we have Specially Elected this year, so the delimitation Members of Ntlo Ya Dikgosi who commission should be able to are nominated to fill in the gaps demarcate Sub Districts despite the House might have. That is why the economic downturn. We I mentioned that this is a complex should look at the significance matter and at times people do of having specially nominated not understand what nomination Members. We should only be or special election means. For bound by the Constitution to instance, in Parliament, we would have the delimitation commission not have the number of women guide the increase in the number we have right now in the House of Councillors. Maybe the had it not been for the special Honourable Minister is in a nomination procedure. Even at position to explain the duties Councils, the female Councillors of these specially nominated come in by virtue of being Councillors and whether we specially nominated. We then really need them. I feel that the look at the youth who run the number of Councillors will be Councils and the disadvantaged. increased when the delimitation Probably we will not need it in commission calls for increment the long run but not now. Those of Sub Districts. Thank you Mr are the reasons to consider for Chairman. special nomination in Councils,

59 Tuesday 24th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate)

Parliament and Ntlo Ya Dikgosi. qualifications for Membership Thank you Mr Chairman. of the Council, that a person should be competent in writing MR CHAIRMAN: There is and reading English. It seems our a concern that there was an resolution was not considered at omission in the North East and all. Honourable Minister, does it Kgalagadi Districts in terms of mean that this was not agreed to representation in Councils. I do and we cannot propose it again for not know if it is something you consideration? We had proposed have considered or noticed. a Sub Clause that states that, ‘qualification for Membership HONOURABLE SIELE: I of the Council be Subject to the understand you Kgosi. Making condition that a person is able to laws is a challenge on its own speak and, unless incapacitated and the officers responsible are by blindness or other physical listening to how the deliberations cause, read English well enough unfold. We will look further into to take an active part in the it and see how it was phrased proceedings of the Council’. for it to cause these differences We had proposed this with the especially when it comes to North guidance of the Constitution as East and Kgalagadi. We will see it is one of the qualifications for how to put it in such a way that being a Member of Parliament. it includes the two areas and not We had thought it could be used in leave it as open as it currently is. Councils as well, to try and define Thank you Mr Chairman. a Councillor’s competency. I was MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you just wondering if the Government Honourable Minister. Let us does not agree to our proposal. move on; Thank you Mr Chairman.

Clause 14 – Holding of post in MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you public service; Kgosi Kgari. I believe that we are still in the process of making Clause 15 – qualification for resolutions for the Government to Membership of Council. consider, even if we add those from the last Bill. Is there anyone who KGOSI KGARI III wants to comment on qualification (BAKWENA): Thank you Mr for Membership of Council? Chairman. We had resolved that Honourable Minister you seem there should be a Sub Clause anxious, do you want to respond? in this Clause concerning the

60 Tuesday 24th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate)

HONOURABLE SIELE: We will consider it, Mr Chairman As the Minister who has the and look into it in terms of challenge of making a law, one implications as every other person has to look at all factors that has the right to vote and to be affect the administration of that voted. Thank you Mr Chairman. particular piece of legislation. One considers the social setup MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you. and the political landscape. What Clause 16 – Tenure of office of to do if one comes out clearly Members and says only those people who are able to read and write should Clause 17 – Vacation of seats. become Members of Councils? Mr Chairman, I know this was KGOSI LOTLAMORENG debated at length even during II (BAROLONG): Thank you the Second Local Government Mr Chairman. I would like to Structure Commission in all the comment on Clause 17, if you Districts where people questioned allow me. I have reservations on if there were some qualifications. some of the Sub Clauses in this Others recommended standard 7; Clause especially Sub Clauses others form 3 while others said (i) (j) (k) and (l) which talk about form 5. There was a point where floor crossing. It says a Member we had to put a standard in land of the Council should leave the boards but upon implementation, Council seat when moving to a there were a lot of problems. different party. Mr Chairman, You will remember that there we vote for these Councillors were some problems with certain looking at their competencies and youth in some areas and this not their political affiliation. They led to the situation we currently are also not voted by Members find ourselves in. I concur with of those parties only. We should Kgosi that there was a resolution differentiate between political but when the law is made, one parties and our Government. To has to take all these factors into cite an example Mr Chairman, consideration and balance them. if the community feels that a It does not mean that when particular individual can still resolutions are made by this represent them at the Council, the House they are not considered, fact that his party had dismissed but serious consideration on him or he decided to defect from implications they will bring both that party should not concern the socially and politically is done. community in any way. I believe

61 Tuesday 24th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate) that if we no longer need the led us to be here? Parties have services of that Councillor, then always split up and no action was we will not vote for that person. taken, Members even defected to Therefore, if we have voted for other parties and there was no a person and then the party has problem Mr Chairman. Now that problems with him and suspends there is a problem somewhere, him, do we really have to suffer the law comes in place, let us because such a person has not force other people to become conflicts with the party? what they are not. Let them be free to affiliate to any society or Mr Chairman, we have the assembly they so wish. Constitution. Section 13 on the Bill of Rights, if you allow me Mr Chairman, a lot has happened Mr Chairman, it states that, “no in terms of politics, Members of person shall be hindered in the a certain party have defected to enjoyment of his or her freedom form their own party and if this of assembly and association, was to repeat itself in future, that is to say his or her right to how many bye-elections will assemble freely and associate we have? Where will we get the with other persons or belong to funds to run these bye-elections? a trade union or other association One other thing Mr Chairman, I for the protection of his or her wonder if we are going to amend interest.’ If the Constitution gives the law for every little thing that a person freedom of assembly, let happens. Just recently, we had us leave that person to have that the public service strike and just freedom. Not so long ago, on his because of that, we amended the nationwide tour, His Excellency, law to include a certain cadre the President has told the nation in the essential services. Now that this is a democratic country. we have to amend the law yet In a democratic country, every again because something else person is free to become whatever has happened. How many laws they want to be. Do not get me are we going to amend? Right wrong but this is what has been now there are rumours on the said. If at all in a democratic formation of an umbrella party country everyone is free, let which means that the members us not deny them the freedom of some parties now become of assembly. Mr Chairman, members of the newly formed I wonder why we are even party and this would call for debating this clause, what had elections Mr Chairman. I just

62 Tuesday 24th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate) wanted to show that I have comes into power, we should reservations on this Clause Mr not question their competency Chairman. Thank you. because every leadership has its own style. Even the years we KGOSI BOIDITSWE have spent call for amendment of (SEROWE REGION): Thank some sections as it was done with you Mr Chairman. Clause 17 Section 77 of the Constitution. (e); ‘if the Member is sentenced Currently Mr Chairman, other by court or having been under parties do not have Membership suspended sentence for a term because of this floor crossing, imposed by ‘a’ is ordered by parties like Liberal, Puso, Lesedi the court to serve that sentence’, la Botswana. This has happened does that mean that the person because floor crossing does not can campaign in the next term have any discipline and everyone for elections since their sentence can just cross the floor without was suspended or they can only any implications while electorates campaign upon the completion are left in a confused state. That is of the suspended sentence? how I see this Bill Mr Chairman. We have had a lengthy debate Maybe the Minister could clarify about floor crossing and I do the one concerning suspended not want to dwell much on sentence of a Councillor. Thank it because candidates deny you Mr Chairman. electorates their rights. When a person campaigns, they use the MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you organization’s manifesto in their Kgosi Boiditswe. Let me request campaign strategies and they are that when we comment on the elected on the basis of that but Clauses, let us read the whole when a Member defects from Clause before we make any that organisation, they never comments because we might find go back to their electorates and that what we are commenting on inform them of the changes. is actually covered as the Clause unfolds. Let us not forget that. Honourable Members, everything has its own course, KGOSI TSHIPE for example the Membership of (MAHALAPYE REGION): this House has increased over Thank you Mr Chairman. I want the years and this has shown that us to carefully look at clause 17 the leadership has grown as well. (1) (i) because it is one of the Therefore, when new leadership complex Clauses when looked at

63 Tuesday 24th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate) from all angles. The reason why do not associate them with any I want to comment on this Clause party but when they join other is that it states that a Member parties, then it does not look should leave their seat when floor right, these voters had reasons crossing. Kgosi Lotlamoreng for voting for them. These are II said that people should cross some of the things that should be floors with their seats but when considered and respected in the looked at broadly, it affects the law. Everyone has a right to be rights of both the candidate and elected but when a person moves the voters. We should look at the to a different party or stands as reasons for floor crossing. For an independent candidate, there a person to have a Membership should be a re-election. If the card of a party they must have person has shown that they are joined that particular party, competent enough to represent and as members, they have to the people then they will get comply with the party policies elected again despite their and procedures. When we go for political affiliation. The voters elections, there are manifestos have their rights as well and if used to campaign. When one is they vote for the same person elected to Parliament, they would to rejoin the Council then they have been voted into that party would have used their rights and and they represent that party, not the rights of the candidate. Let themselves. These people are not us not leave this one behind Mr even voted wholly by members Chairman, we have to consider of the party but other people from all reasons and balance them,. different parties as well, who Let us consider the rights of the might have voted looking at the concerned people as provided for competency of that person. This by the Constitution of Botswana. is the competency the candidate Thank you Mr Chairman displayed during campaign rallies and how they presented KGOSI SEEMEKO the party manifesto during that (SPECIALLY ELECTED): time, so the voters vote basing Thank you Mr Chairman. I stand on that. to agree with (i). The Sub Clause is straight forward and it does not Another issue is that of hinder anyone to defect. One can independent candidates, voters defect but the seat should be left have their reasons for voting behind, it is not theirs, they are independent candidates. They representing the people with that

64 Tuesday 24th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate) seat and there is no how they can KGOSI BOIDITSWE cross with the seat. Mr Chairman, (SEROWE REGION): Point the voting system in this country of order. Mr. Chairman, Kgosi is that we vote for a party and Potsoeng did not understand me, not an individual, all the ballot I did not say that. papers carry the party logos and not any particular individual. We KGOSI POTSOENG: Mr will not be wise enough when we Chairman, the minutes of say that we look at an individual this House reflect that Kgosi when we vote; some of the Boiditswe has said that parties voters would not even know like Puso, Lesedi la Botswana the candidates they have voted and even those which never had after elections because they have representation in Parliament and voted for a party. Therefore, Councils have split, this implies let us face the facts, when one that Kgosi wants us to say, defects to another party, they Members should not cross as should leave the seat so that the well. That is what I am saying. voters can decide if they want to It is a good thing for us to be put in a replacement. That is how concerned about the rights of I understand it Mr Chairman and both the voters and candidates. we should consider both angles Anyone in Botswana has like some Members have said. freedom to associate with any Thank you Mr Chairman. organization. Furthermore, the Constitution of Botswana allows KGOSI POTSOENG (NGAMI voters to use their vote of no REGION): Thank you Mr. confidence prerogative if they are Chairman. I wanted to start off by not happy with their candidates. commenting on Kgosi Boiditswe Why don’t we use that provision? statement. He said that some I think that we are wrong to say parties have experienced some the voters feel betrayed when the breakaways because of floor candidates defect to other parties. crossing. He is implying that even Majority of people who vote are the ordinary members should not educated and they are aware that leave the party, he should correct there is a provision for vote of that statement. On the issue of no confidence. However, they rights, I do not understand why continue to show confidence it is said that the rights of some in that particular Member of people are being violated. Parliament. If at all they were not happy, they could use their right

65 Tuesday 24th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate) and call for bye elections. With will be doing justice to Botswana, the council it is not a big issue, Dikgosi, the Government, perhaps with the Parliament it Members of Parliament and might be problematic. I have Councillors. We have to preserve requested that people should our democracy so that it remains be taught about this vote of no a shining example, a democracy confidence proviso so that they which does not hinder anyone know what to do if they lose from exercising their right to confidence in their candidates. freedom of association. I do not If they constitute a number dispute the fact that this Law required to call for elections, then should be made but maybe we elections will be held without any could change our procedure and delays. I do not see any reason have a non elected Government why we should taint our shining just like we do with the Members democracy because of people of this House. I do not know how who choose to defect to other other countries manage since they parties. Parties have split over the do not have this floor crossing past years, Botswana Congress complications. The President is Party and Botswana National elected and from there he appoints Front split at Palapye. BNF was his Members of Parliament and left with only 2 Members of they will not cross the floor as Parliament after eleven Members they would have been chosen by defected to BCP. the President. With the current situation, candidates campaign This was not settled through bye using their party manifesto but elections Mr Chairman because it is different for the independent the democracy was there and candidates who campaign without there was no problem then. Now any manifesto and they are that Members of Parliament from elected based on their campaign a certain party defect to other strategy. Some people become parties, the Law is amended, independent because they are not and this is the same Law which happy in their parties or because was declined way back for the they have lost at the primary reason that democracy would be elections. How does this Clause tampered with if it was made. affect them Mr Chairman? I do It is reasonable for Laws to be not agree with the suggestion made when there is a reasonable that we should punish those who cause, Mr Chairman. Let us make will be defecting to other parties. the Law considering whether we If we say that then we would be

66 Tuesday 24th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate) agreeing with Kgosi Boiditswe the funds are spent accordingly when he said parties will take and not wasted on making Laws advantage of the candidates and which will create more expenses, will not allow them to defect until hindering provision of essential the 5 year term elapses. I would services. Let us look at these not agree to a Law like that Mr things from both angles. When Chairman. Thank you. a member is expelled from a party, where is the seat going as MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable they have been expelled. Is there Members, let me remind you that any person who has ever been we still have to go up to Section financed by a party to campaign? 94 before we conclude this Bill These people use their finances and if we take this much time on to campaign and if they are to section 17, when are we going to defect they might as well do so complete the clauses? We still with their seats because they have have the third stage-resolution spent their money to earn those of the Bill. Some of the things seats. Honourable Members, we are bringing up will make it what has prompted this? impossible to reach our resolution because we have different KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Point ideas on certain clauses. Let us of clarification Mr Chairman. consider this as we debate. I am confused by what Kgosi Lempadi is saying. It implies KGOSI LEMPADI that the candidate has bought the (OKAVANGO REGION): Mr seat, whilst we know that being Chairman, let me have my say in politics is a voluntary task. to prevent a possible depletion of Kgosi Lempadi is putting it in the country’s funds; the money such a way that it appears like the we already have is not enough to candidates have bought seats and provide for our services. We now those seats are not to be taken want to start a project which we from them as they have used will waste money on. What has their money to campaign. Can he prompted the making of this Bill clarify that because if seats are Mr Chairman? This has been in bought then there is a problem? practice from way back but we Thank you. have not wasted any money on any Law, what has prompted the KGOSI LEMPADI: Do not drafting of this Clause? What we claim that you are unaware of should be doing is to see to it that what happens on the ground

67 Tuesday 24th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate) because we know that voters KGOSI MACHILIDZA are given food and transported (BOTETI REGION): Thank in cars to sing at rallies, is that you Mr Chairman. Let me thank not buying? What else can Honourable Members who be done nowadays without have already debated. When the spending money? Nothing! Even Minister responded earlier on, he businesses have collapsed as a said that we should look at things result of campaigns. People have outside the box to avoid other long crossed the floor and has people being disadvantaged. Mr one Minister ever been called Chairman, the issue at hand does to explain why a candidate has not concern the community in any crossed the floor to another party? way, if Batswana have a problem Have those people ever been with a certain leader, they will called to explain themselves? raise that concern. This issue There is nothing like that but has to do with an organisation instead the voters remain happy being unhappy with what has and continue attending kgotla happened while others got used to meetings addressed by that the situation. It is something that person even if he has defected one can live with. Members have to a different party. Why do we pointed out that the candidate have to say that the nation is would have defected with the concerned while in actual fact electorates’ votes and that they it is a particular group that is should pay for that by going concerned? Let us look at our through a re-election. There is no financial expenditure in this one, be it a Member of Parliament poor country. Botswana is a or Councillor who uses their cards poor country Mr Chairman. Our to vote. When elections are run, the advantage is that we have a small Government and the Independent population, equivalent to that of a Electoral Commission (IEC) township in Harare. Botswana’s produce the voting cards. This is population stands at 2 million the only card which qualifies the and if we had 10 million people, candidates for elections; these how would we manage when a cards are not branded by party population of 2 million people logos and therefore who will say is not manageable? We however that it is their party card which continue to bring in laws which made them successful in the will cost the nation a lot of elections? If at all the IEC had a money in the long run. Thank Clause that prevented defections you Mr Chairman. to other parties then it would make

68 Tuesday 24th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate) sense, however there is no such and not let our frustrations draw Clause and therefore this is not us to a ditch. We should not turn a situation which people should against our shining democracy be punished for. A person who even before we have started. has been expelled from a party Parties have caucuses and may campaign as an independent whatever the caucus has resolved, candidate and win elections. If Members stick to that resolution the Law says that they are going at the National assembly or at the to be penalised when they join Council. Members might resolve other parties, this then means that whatever the House proposes that the person is barred from they will not agree to it even if ever joining any other party. A it is a reasonable proposal. This person cannot win on his/her law is tailor made to derail and own; others might have assisted scare people Mr Chairman. We him as an Independent candidate. have come a long way as a free When he wants to join a party, he country, so, we should not make will probably not rejoin the party laws which will scare people. Let which expelled him, he would us make Laws which will make rather join those who assisted us free to even sell our country him. We have our Constitution outside. Let us do away with (e) to follow. Like the Minister has and move on to provide political said, when Members of this education to the electorates. House wanted an amendment of Political education is the key to a Section on the Stock theft Act, everything and laws do not have they were told that Section 95 to be made because one has failed of the Constitution states that all to educate electorates .That is not cases will go through the High a proper procedure. Law making court. Here we have a section is an expensive procedure and which addresses freedom of it requires the engagement of assembly and association. It does consultants who take their time not single out a party, it gives a and thoroughly consider the Law person that freedom and Section and advice. However, because 13, Subsection 2 also provides for they are consultants, they do not political opinion. There are rights care about anything except to given to a person in a democratic gain money from the consultation country like Botswana, which process. This has been done in people use as an example of such a way that others will benefit a shining democracy. Let us at the expense of others. Let us preserve our country’s reputation make Laws which will strengthen

69 Tuesday 24th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate) this country. I do not see any generation know that freedom of problem with a person defecting expression and movement exist to another party. With reference to and what will remain will be on what Kgosi Potsoeng has said, 11 the hands of the voters. I do not Members defected from a certain understand whether a re-election party and the voters decided will be mandatory even if an to wait for the elections, a step independent candidate rejoins they took without compromising their original party Mr Chairman. anyone. Therefore, let Batswana Let this Law be abandoned so that make their own decisions, they we are given a chance to decide know when to get even with those what is good for us. Thank you people. Mr Chairman.

As the leadership of this country, KGOSI RAMOKWENA consider this situation and guard (MAUN REGION): Thank against democracy being a one you Mr Chairman. I will look party state. The way things are, at these words; ‘Democracy and we are heading towards a one Justice’, are we violating these party state and if it goes that aspects? Have we forgotten them far, where will the leadership when we say that people will be deliberate? These laws that we expelled from their parties and make on daily basis will even yet claiming that they are free? create doubts among investors. Mr Chairman, there is certain word I would like to use which is We bench mark on many rather unpalatable, but I will use countries who are rated highly it anyway since it has been used in democracy and their citizens in the Bible. There were people are free to support any party who were regarded as prostitutes, even when they are members they would be with God on certain of a different party, it is not circumstances and the next day wrong. For example, Colin the situation becomes different, Powel supported Barack Obama they associate with a different and his party did not question God. The situation at hand can be him despite their loss. Botswana compared to that in the Bible. We should be a model and should could call those people who cross maintain its status for being the floor political prostitutes. It is one of the best in both Southern true that others choose to move Africa and Africa in terms of between parties but for others it democracy. Let the coming is not by choice. Let us not spoil

70 Tuesday 24th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate) this freedom, when people have record for years to come and by wronged a party and are expelled, then Members would feel that they can always be accepted they did not say what has been back when they want to rejoin recorded, just saying… We that party, just like with children, have only 5 minutes left and we parents cannot disown their should consider this time factor children because they have bad as we debate. habits and are convicts. If there is honesty, people will always KGOSI MOETI II rejoin their original parties and (SPECIALLY ELECTED): they should not be denied their Thank you Mr Chairman. I will right. Mr Chairman, honesty can be brief since a lot has been said. be compared to a seed planted This is a straight forward issue on a dry land, when it rains, the and as Members debated, they seed grows. Therefore, I do not mentioned floor crossing and it see floor crossing as a threat seemed to cause confusion. Some to other parties. Let us leave Members feel that floor crossing our democracy as it is and not should be barred but the issue introduce some Laws which at hand is not floor crossing but appear to be oppressive. If people rather for the voters to be given have concerns, then they will the opportunity to exercise their raise them. Like Kgosi Potsoeng rights. We are talking about the has said, when people feel that rights of two people; the voter they have been denied their and the candidate. Defections rights, then they will use their are going to occur and we cannot vote of no confidence prerogative stop that, people have freedom and vote out that candidate. Let of association and that is the us not rush to make Laws which candidate’s right but it does not will implicate us in the long run. end there. We have to consider A lot has been said about this Bill both parties in this case, the Mr Chairman and that is why I voter and the candidate. There is think we should leave the Bill in no problem when the candidate its original state and not change exercises their right and crosses it. Thank you Mr Chairman. the floor as they have that freedom of association but, what MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you about the other partner who is Kgosi Ramokwena. I believe the voter, let them exercise their that all proceedings of this House rights as well. are recorded and will remain on

71 Tuesday 24th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate)

KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II practice is unacceptable; it is only (BAROLONG): Pardon me Mr done in our country. As I stated Chairman, we quoted Section yesterday, it is a mistake which in 13 of the Constitution, which a way has benefited all the parties. talks about the right to freedom Let us avoid being emotional of association. The point that we and focus more on International are driving home is that anyone Standards of Democracy. In who defects from a party should America, for example, you will not be deprived of their seat. If find that a Member cannot defect there is a section that talks about with the Republican seat to join the rights of a voter, let us be the Democrats. If that happens, it informed of it so that we can is something which is abnormal argue from the same perspective. and needs to be normalised. If I thank you Mr Chairman. one is a Member of Parliament because they were voted in by Mr. KGOSI MOETI II: Mr Moseki but they find themselves Chairman, I will repeat what I said representing Mr Seeletso, then again, after dealing with the rights something is wrong and as such of the candidate we should look at that cannot be ignored. This has the rights of the voter because we to be rectified; candidates should cannot overlook it. Honourable leave their seats and return to their Members have emphasised the constituencies for re-elections. issue of democracy but if we I am trying to identify countries address the right of voters then that do the same practice and we will be exercising democracy. there is none. It is disappointing If we fail to protect the right of the to advocate for floor crossing voter or candidate, then we will when we are the very people who be closing our eyes to democracy. represent the nation. This seat is for both; therefore we cannot talk about the candidate MR CHAIRMAN: I had said we and ignore the voters. Honourable are left with only four minutes Members, when we talk of and you have exceeded it and democracy, we are talking about added extra two minutes Kgosi the development of a country, as a Moeti. Do not forget the point nation we are supposed to promote you are on, and do not repeat what democracy. To defect and still you have already said tomorrow maintain that seat belonging to the for progress sake. Before we voters and the party can never be conclude Honourable Minister, democratic. In other countries, this tomorrow is Wednesday and

72 Wednesday 25th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate) usually it is set aside for Cabinet, Morning Honourable Members, is that arrangement still on? Minister and officials from Local Government. Let me welcome HONOURABLE SIELE: Mr you once again to the debate on Chairman it is indeed still that the Local Government Bill which way. We are going to have a very commenced on Monday. We will important Cabinet which will be proceed with today’s business. meeting to consider the budget; therefore we will not be available LOCAL GOVERNMENT including the Assistant Ministers. BILL, 2011(NO. 13 OF 2011)

MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you Second Reading Honourable Minister. Then we (Resumed Debate) shall meet at half past two in the afternoon. My request is that MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Honourable Members of Ntlo When we adjourned yesterday, ya Dikgosi meet in this House we were on the Second Reading tomorrow morning at half past of the Bill, which was presented nine. before this House on Monday. We were still looking at the Clauses MOTION and I had reminded Honourable ADJOURNMENT Members that we should be conscious of time when making The House accordingly adjourned contributions. Having said that, at 4:00pm until Wednesday 25th let us continue from where we January 2012 at 2:30pm. left yesterday. I will change the procedure here and there but in th Wednesday 25 January, 2012 line with our Rules of Procedure. THE HOUSE met at 2.30 p.m. We were done with Clause 17. (THE CHAIRMAN in the Clause 18 Chair) Clause 19 P R A Y E R S Clause 20-Mayor or * * * * Chairperson of the Council

CHAIRMAN’S REMARKS KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Mr MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI Chairman, when we adjourned PUSO GABORONE): Good yesterday, I think Kgosi Moeti

73 Wednesday 25th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate) was on the floor, unless he does to attract people to join them. To not want to debate anymore. strengthen their credibility, they Does the Chairman remember may head hunt certain individuals telling Kgosi to hold his whom they believe will add value thoughts because it was time for to their party, which is allowed. adjournment? Thank you. Even individuals may change their minds in terms of the party MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you they align themselves with. We Kgosi Moeti’s advocate. agreed that candidates should have the freedom to move to any KGOSI MOETI II party of their choice. However, (SPECIALLY ELECTED): if they cross the floor with the Thank you, Mr Chairman. Kgosi other party’s seat, they would Boiditswe must have enjoyed be violating the rights of the my debate. If my memory serves electorate, the constituency and me well, we were concluding the the party. That is where we differ. floor crossing topic. We were Yesterday when we adjourned, I saying, to cross the floor is not had highlighted that if I was voted an issue; it is within everyone’s by Moseki for example but I find rights to move to a party of their myself representing Seeletso, choice. However, fortunately then something would not be or unfortunately, the rights of right, we should not ignore that. the candidate are intertwined That then brings me to this point, with that of the electorate, the that if indeed something has gone constituency and the party. We wrong, then it is an emergency have covered these issues over and has to be addressed. It is the the past days. same as when a representative Let me just highlight Honourable passes away, the natural solution Members, that even though others is bye elections. I am aware that in may say their rights are being politics, floor crossing may be one trampled on, we should bear in of the tactics used to strengthen mind that there are some voters parties. However, let us not ignore who want to be represented by the fact that we would be denying the person they voted for in their the electorates their right. constituency. So, no one’s rights Others raised suspicions as to should be above others. We are why this issue is being brought up all aware that political parties now. We should note that some are like organisations. They have years ago, the then Member of mandates and manifestos they use

74 Wednesday 25th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate)

Parliament Ms Kokorwe tabled Councillors. I request that this this motion and it was embraced Oath of Allegiance or affirmation by all parties, even though it be prescribed in the schedules so was never made a law. Those that they know what to say when who were there at the time and taking an oath. were aware of the politics of the time, through research or good MR CHAIRMAN: Thank memory, will remember that this you, Kgosi Lotlamoreng II. The idea is not new. I did say yesterday suggestion is that there should be that we are growing as a country, a schedule which has an oath in Government and politics. this Bill.

MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi Moeti, KGOSI SEBOKO (BALETE): could you please not repeat what Thank you, Mr Chairman. I you said yesterday, wrap up your second the suggestion and I do debate! not think there is anyone here who is against it. Thank you. KGOSI MOETI II: Thank you. As I have already said, we MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you, have done justice to this debate. Kgosi Mosadi Seboko. In conclusion, I just wanted to Clause 20 say we know that the issue may not sit well with others in the Clause 21 political arena. However, it is not something that we can just Clause 22-Committees let go as a nation that aspires to KGOSI MACHILIDZA: Thank grow in democracy. That is my you, Mr Chairman. Earlier on contribution. Thank you. we came up with a suggestion MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you, that there should be seven (7) Kgosi Moeti and Kgosi Boiditswe. committees. However, I further Can we please move on? suggest that we create room for emergencies. Should there be Clauses18 need for another committee; the Councillors should be able to Clause 19 get a waiver from the Minister KGOSI LOTLAMORENG to allow them to form that II (BAROLONG): Thank you, committee despite the fact that Mr Chairman. I have a request we said seven. I thank you, Mr on Clause 19; swearing in of Chairman.

75 Wednesday 25th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate)

MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you, MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Kgosi Machilidza. Kgosi Seemeko. Let us move on.

Part V-Proceedings of Council Part VI - Privilege of or Surbordinate Authorities Immunity

If we do not have anything on Clauses 32, 33, 34, 35. Part V, let us go to Clauses 23 KGOSI GAREBAKWENA: Clause 24 Thank you, Mr Chairman. Let us move on. KGOSI MACHILIDZA: On Clause 24; Quorum; it says that MR CHAIRMAN:Part VII – half of Members of a Council Staff or Subordinate Authority shall constitute a quorum. I think total Clause 36 majority is the best; it is the one Clause 37- which can be used to determine how we can go about the issue of Clause 38-Staff Rules quorum. KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II: MR CHAIRMAN: Is there Mr Chairman. May I ask whether anyone who wishes to comment the Council Secretary or Town on clauses 23, 24, 25, and 26? Clerk could report to the Mayor If not, do we have any comment or Council Chairperson? Maybe on clauses 27, 28 and 29, 30 and I missed something in this Act 31? but it appears like in most cases they report to the Permanent KGOSI SEBOKO: Looking at Secretary. the clauses Mr Chairman, there is nothing that we want to amend. MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable Let us adopt them and move on. Minister, there is a question. Thank you. Is there a possibility that the Council Secretary or Town Clerk MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you, could report to the Mayor or Kgosi Mosadi Seboko. Council Chairperson? I take it KGOSI SEEMEKO: Mr. that you can make a clarification Chairman, I second Kgosi Honourable Minister? Mosadi Seboko’s proposal. HONOURABLE SIELE: That is the case, Mr Chairman. They

76 Wednesday 25th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate) report to their Chairmen of the out, it appears like our political Councils. Secretaries and Town heads at the Councils; the Mayors Clerks are accounting officers in and the Council Chairmen their own right, in their respective position do not possess any power. local authorities as administrative Even when there are issues in the heads of institutions. However, Council, you will realise that the we must note that Chairmen and administration side of the Council Mayors are political heads, they is the one with more power. The report to them. They are supposed Mayors and Council Chairmen to give them everything. The want executive powers. I think same thing happens when we are Honourable Assistant Minister, at the Ministry. I am the political Botlogile Tshireletso can confirm superintendent of the Ministry. that at the time when she left Permanent Secretary and other the Councils, some years back, officers report to me. So that is those are the issues they were already happening, staff of the complaining about. Maybe it Council shall be accountable could assist if we were to reassure to the Council through Town them that they are in charge of Clerks and Council Secretaries. everything, they are not just However, if the Council ceremonial. Let that be made Secretary or the Town Clerk is clear, Mr Chairman. not performing, the Chairman will inform us and we will take MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable appropriate action. Thank you. Minister, a clarification is sort on executive powers. KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH EAST): Thank you, Mr Chairman. HONOURABLE SIELE: The I understand what the Minister is ‘executive powers’ is something saying, but the Council Chairmen that has been discussed at and the Mayors, are always length in the Councils and the complaining about executive Local Government Structure powers. It is said that they are Commission came to address just ceremonial figures who do this issue. When talking about not have any executive powers. executive powers for the Council, Maybe this is so because we are maybe we should compare with in a unitary system which is not countries where Councils have provincial. I understand what you such powers. If you go to New are saying Honourable Minister, York, London and some other but as Kgosi Lotlamoreng pointed places where, you will find that the

77 Wednesday 25th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate)

Councils have the responsibility Government departments. That is to recruit their staff directly. why the current system calls for That was the case at the time the Minister to be accountable when we became independent to the whole nation. The same in 1966 up to 1973. Challenges thing will be done with the were experienced when Councils Councils, the staff will know the were directly recruiting their accountable person. Thank you, own staff. There were difficulties Mr Chairman. in equitable distribution of the resources by the Government MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you, became, small Councils in Honourable Minister. I believe areas where the population was the Minister has clarified the issue low also experienced some that we were asking questions on. challenges. Then in 1973, a law That being said, let us move on. was passed to have Unified Local Part VIII - Valuation and Government Service. Teachers rating of Properties. could also be recruited directly. Communities had been given the Clause 39 liberty to do so. Then in 1976, a Unified Teaching Service was KGOSI SEBOKO (BALETE): established so that they can all Thank you, Mr Chairman. fall under one management. Clause 39, Sub-section 4 says As we speak right now, we that, “subject to the provision of have further changed the law this section, rate able land within to comply with the conventions this part means land within like the International Labour the jurisdiction of the Council Organisations. The Public except land that is vested in Service Act that is operational the Government.” It goes on to today is complying with the talk about churches and others. convention. The Act guides all I want to point out that there the processes and procedures of are things the community can the Public Service. do to promote self-reliance. The law should recognise that Let me assure this House that there are some efforts from the when this Bill is adopted as law, communities. Tribal properties we are going to make things which are run by trusts proves clear. We have realised that that. We are aware that the developments are delayed, not Government has come up with only in Councils, but in all other poverty eradication programmes.

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There are some Dikgosi who have are talking about; they fall under assisted women and youth to self-reliance revival category. If come together and be registered they are included here, I do not as a group. I do not know have any problem but we will whether these groups will fall find an appropriate name for under charitable organisations them. Thank you. or not. Maybe we could include vulnerable people groups like MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you, women and youth, to empower Honourable Minister. Do we them. Would Government have any comments on clauses consider these? Thank you, Mr 39 and 40? Chairman. Clauses 41, 42 and 43 MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Part IX- Power of Council to Kgosi Seboko. Honourable Make by- Laws Minister, are the things mentioned by Kgosi Mosadi Clauses-44, 45, 46. Seboko included in Clause 39? Maybe you could further explain KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II whether the groups that she (BAROLONG): Thank you, Mr mentioned are included in the Chairman. Let us find a better charitable institutions. way of explaining what we mean by consultation with the HONOURABLE SIELE: community? Where should these Thank you, Mr Chairman. It is consultations be conducted? Is only that they are not so specific it possible for a certain group of in the Bill the way she knows people to meet under a tree and them. However, the point that then say the community has been Kgosi is raising is worth noting consulted? It would be ideal if and because those are non-profit the consultation was to be done organisations which deal with in a Kgotla. Thank you. community projects in different regions. We probably have to find KGOSI MACHILIDZA a word which can make people (BOTETI REGION): Thank recognise such efforts and even you, Mr Chairman. When Kgosi encourage communities to come Lotlamoreng mentioned the up with such kind of trusts which word, ‘Kgotla.’ Let us be clear will be assisting the community. and just say that the community That is the self-reliance that we consultation should be conducted in a Kgotla, unless there are

79 Wednesday 25th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate) compelling reasons not to do so. the procedure. I know in some In that case, a special place shall places, people do not follow be identified. Kgotla is the ideal the procedure. The consultation place. Thank you, Mr Chairman. should be in the Kgotla, I do not know whether we want to clearly MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable state in the Bill that we want it at Minister, where is this consultation the Kgotla. If that is the case, we going to be conducted? will look at it to see how we can draft it in such a way that there MINISTER OF LOCAL will be no confusion. Thank you, GOVERNMENT (HON. Kgosi. SIELE): Thank you, Mr Chairman. There is no problem KGOSI MOSADI SEBOKO really. When we talk about (BALETE): Thank you, Mr consultation with the community, Chairman. In the Malete area, we mean at the Kgotla. When for example, Councillors may Ministers or any Government utter that they consulted the official, want to conduct some community in Dikgotla, when consultations, it is either they they are referring to the wards in do it at the Councils or at the the village. My concern is, why Kgotla. In towns, we do not don’t we just specify in the Bill have Dikgotla but we use some that the Kgosi and his community Community Halls, they are will be consulted in the Kgotla? designated as Dikgotla. If I want We will have the opportunity to to address the community in make resolutions, we will include Kanye, I cannot ask for a tent to this it. The Minister should not be pitched somewhere and say be surprised when he sees it and I will consult the community should not think that maybe there there, unless the community and is a hidden agenda. We want it its leadership are the ones who to be stated clearly that Kgosi proposed that it should be like should be part of the consultation that due to certain circumstances. meetings. Where there is no The Kgotla is the main place Kgosi; Moemela Kgosi or the where Kgosi welcomes people. Chief’s representative will stand In a proper setup, before any in. Thank you. consultation is done, you have to report to Kgosi first and inform HONOURABLE SIELE: I thank him of the intention to come and you, Mr Chairman and Kgosi consult the community. That is Mosadi Seboko. It is okay to bring

80 Wednesday 25th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate) it as a resolution. Our procedure clarify whether the service centre is that Councillors and Members mentioned here is related to the of Parliament hold meetings in one he explained earlier on? the Dikgotla which have been selected in the village. The right MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable thing to do would be to start the Minister, can you make a meetings at the main Kgotla, and distinction between the service then the Councillor may hold other centre you were talking about meetings in the nominated wards. yesterday and what we are In that case, when Kgosi hears discussing now? Is this service about meetings in the village, he/ development centre committee she will know what they are for. going to be the one which runs We will look into the resolution the service centre? when you bring it. MINISTER OF LOCAL MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you, GOVERNMENT (HON. Honourable Minister. SIELE): Thank you, Mr Chairman. It is related to the Clauses 47 to 63 agreed to one I explained yesterday. I had mentioned that we will see some Part X - Revenues of Councils of the things as we go along. Accounts and Audits MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Clauses 64 to 72 agreed to Honourable Minister.

Part XI- Establishment of Local KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH Authorities Public Accounts EAST): Thank you, Mr Committee Chairman. Mine is just an advice on clause 80. I believe Clause XII - Development it has been noted that we said Committees the community property should Clauses79 and 80- Establishment be left with the community. of district or urban development It would be a contradiction to committees and Establishment say that we are developing the of village or ward development communities while on the other committees hand we are taking their property. I believe that we all concur that KGOSI GAREBAKWENA: the property for the community Thank you, Mr Chairman. should be left with them. Thank Could the Honourable Minister you, Honourable Minister.

81 Wednesday 25th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate)

KGOSI LEMPADI KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II: (OKAVANGO): Still on that No, it is okay, Mr Chairman. one, I would like to reiterate that the property for the community MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you. I should be left with them. That do not see anyone indicating that is community empowerment. they want to comment on clause If we were to take the property 79. Oh! Kgosi Ramokwena. away from them, we would be KGOSI RAMOKWENA demoralising them. In a way, (MAUN REGION): Mine is just we would be saying they cannot a short comment. As the property run them and that would be a remains with the community, drawback. Thank you. they should be trained on how to MR CHAIRMAN: I thought manage them. They should also these microphone increase the be given powers to sue and be sound of our voices but today sued. even those who normally speak MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi would in loud voices sound so low. I be part of that community. don’t know what the problem is. Or maybe they just raise their KGOSI MACHILIDZA voices when addressing certain (BOTETI REGION): I issues? Honourable Minister, on understand what Kgosi the community property? Ramokwena is saying when he says the committees should sue HONOURABLE SIELE: and be sued. At times we do Thank you, Mr Chairman. I certain things ignorantly. These take it there will be a resolution Village Development Committees from this House on this issue. (VDCs) have ex-officio members We will look at the resolution in VDCs like Kgosi. He may end so that when we amend, we do up being sued by virtue of his it in such a way that it will be membership, even though he did consistent with what is already nothing wrong. Maybe we could in place. Thank you, Mr look into ways of elevating our Chairman. VDCs to a certain level, where MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you, they will be able to manage the Honourable Minister. Kgosi property of the community rather Lotlamoreng, do you want to say than making laws which will get something? us into trouble. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

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KGOSI RAMOKWENA: Clause 79 and 80 agreed to. Clarification, Mr Chairman. When a person has been given Part 13 – Miscellaneous things to take care of, they should Clause 81 and 82 – Power of be held accountable. If they Entry and Execution of Orders cannot sue people who owe the against council property that is in their charge, then where is the accountability. KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH Ex-officio is an advisor. I take it EAST DISTRICT): Mr that there will be rules which will Chairman, I would like the guide us on who has the power Honourable Minister to enlighten to sue or be sued. If they do not us on whether in an instance have powers, they are weak. when the Council has entered That is why we currently have a into an unscrupulous contract, situation where VDC houses are would there be action taken owed huge sums of money but against those involved? If the nothing is being done. Others Council ends up paying in honour have disappeared with the VDC of that contract, would there be a funds while others die before they scenario where the Government pay. They should be given powers recovers the money from those to manage things accordingly, involved? That is what I need to not just to rely on the Council. If understand. this property remains with them while they do not have powers, MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you, it will be a challenge. There will Kgosi Masunga. be no progress. Thank you, Mr HONOURABLE SIELE: Chairman. Thank you, Mr Chairman. The MR CHAIRMAN: As we move Auditor General audits Councils on Honourable Members, there and produces a report. In cases is a distinction between VDCs where there are suspicions of being given powers or legal some foul play, they can apply for backing and the community forensic audit which will reveal property remaining with the the perpetrators. If a Government community. The community employee is involved, there are property may be managed by a provisions to be followed, we trust, Bogosi or any other body also have surcharge. As of now, that the community may decide we are talking about performance on. Let us proceed. audits, it will be established

83 Wednesday 25th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate) whether the Council funds are KGOSI TSHIPE used accordingly. Thank you, Mr (MAHALAPYE REGION): Chairman. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Is Clause 84 not going to be in MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you conflict with Sections 64 to 67, Honourable Minister. If there are which gives Councils powers to no comments, I believe we can borrow money, to sue and to be proceed. sued? If they make arrangements to get a loan, he may use his Clauses 81 and 82 powers to frustrate their efforts. Clause 83 Let us look into that Honourable Minister. Thank you. Clause 84-Powers to reject, vary or amend a resolution. MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable Minister, will this procedure not KGOSI LOTLAMORENG be in conflict with sections 64 to II: Thank you, Mr Chairman. 67 which give Councils certain On Clause 84, even though the powers? The Minister may go Minister has the powers to reject, against their efforts in accordance I suggest that we should amend with the said sections. the Clause and say he should not reject or vary without consulting HONOURABLE SIELE: the Council. I am aware that at Thank you, Mr Chairman. Let the end of the day someone has us read it and understand what it to make a decision, it would says; “The Minister may reject, be ideal for consultation to be vary or amend the resolution done, not to give the Minister of a Council considering the absolute powers. Thank you, Mr financial implications and public Chairman. or national interest.” The Minister will not just reject or vary based KGOSI GAREBAKWENA on personal feelings or malice. (MOLEPOLOLE REGION): It would be legitimate, based on To add on to what he has just whether that resolution would not said, it is important that the lead the Council into unnecessary Council understands why the over expenditure. He will also Minister has rejected or amended look at what the resolution means a matter. Otherwise they may on the Council’s overall budget. end up thinking that the Minister On the issue of loans, they have probably wants to use his powers to be lawful. When they enter into to frustrate them. Thank you.

84 Wednesday 25th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate) those contracts, legal office will be is noted. Governance in our there to ensure that everything is country is done in such a way done accordingly, to interpret the that the Minister is the head of the legalities of the transaction. All Ministry. Our country is a multi- these will be done in accordance party system, we have opposition with the Constitution. The same and ruling party members. we thing will happen on the 1st need to have an appeals body, February, when the Minister where rejected resolutions can delivers the Budget Speech to the be appealed to otherwise we will nation, he will do so in accordance have a situation where a political with the Constitution. Even the figure, being the Minister, is Supplementary Estimates are likely to sabotage other Councils done in accordance with the because they are not led by his Constitution. There is a provision party? Let us look at this clause in the Constitution that outlines carefully and from all angles so what can be done under certain that when it is adopted as a law, it circumstances. Thank you. does not prejudice others. Thank you Mr Chairman. KGOSI BOIDITSWE (SEROWE REGION): Thank KGOSI SEEMEKO you, Mr Chairman. The concern (SPECIALLY ELECTED): was mainly raised because we Thank you, Mr Chairman. We believe in consultations. The have debated this issue and Minister should not just reject it is being addressed by this without consulting the Council quote; ‘considering the financial and informing them of the implication and public or reasons behind his decision. That national interest.’ I also take it will not cause any harm, they that the Minister cannot just take should know the reasons behind a decision and not give feedback, the decision taken. Even if hopes it is straight forward. Thank you. for projects in some villages would have been high, once they KGOSI MOSADI SEBOKO are informed, they will be able (BALETE): Just to add on to to inform the community they what has already been said on this represent. Thank you. issue, consultations will enable the Minister and the Councillors KGOSI MACHILIDZA to look into the reasons given. (BOTETI REGION): I hope He will share his reasons with Kgosi Boiditswe’s concern them and at the end they will

85 Wednesday 25th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate) compromise and reach a decision. said, the Council Secretary is If the Minister is sabotaging part of the organisation and them, it will be evident. Thank they are usually involved in the you, Mr Chairman. corruption that occurs in their organisations, so, we should just MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you, have a committee. Kgosi Mosadi Seboko. KGOSI BOIDITSWE: It is true, Clause 84 Mr Chairman, it is difficult to assess oneself. It is better to have Clause 85 another person assessing you. We Clause 86-Declaration of are talking about declaration of financial interests. assets, and an individual would be the one who knows how they KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH acquired those assets. Other EAST DISTRICT): Thank you, assets may have been acquired Mr Chairman. On Clause 86, I legitimately but others may do not think it is right to declare not, and that is where we may assets to the Council Secretary or encounter challenges. That is why Town Clerk. They are part of that we propose that we should have organisation and in most cases, a strong committee that will look corruption cases are involved. into this without taking sides. I Maybe there could be a committee believe that such a committee where Councillors, Town Clerks, will take us where we want to go. Council Secretaries together with Thank you, Mr Chairman. Economic Planners and Heads of Department could declare to. MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you, The confidential register will be Kgosi Boiditswe. Honourable kept by the committee and they Minister, do you want to clarify can show it to the Minister when anything on financial interests? need arises. The committee could, HONOURABLE SIELE: Thank over the years, review the assets you, Mr Chairman. This clause is that one owns. Even some Heads addressing financial interests, not of Departments have requested assets. Honourable Members, that they be protected because please let us note that here we some of them acquire assets are talking about other people’s legitimately by working hard but lives which are confidential. there are those who progress by Would the approach you are association. As I have already suggesting not lead to a situation

86 Wednesday 25th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate) where we will find people’s be the Guardian or the Daily News. confidential information being Even before the courts, we often exposed to everyone? If we give have cases where Newspapers one person this responsibility are sued and some are ordered and the next day we hear that to apologise. At times they do the confidential information has apologise even though the apology leaked to Newspapers, then we will appear small somewhere in a can deal with that Newspaper, corner whereas the issue they are be it Guardian or the Telegraph apologising for was a headline. It and the officer concerned will be was just an example. Thank you, cited. Mr Chairman.

I do not understand why we want KGOSI LEMPADI a group of people to be given (OKAVANGO REGION): information like this. As we speak, Honourable Members, I am I have declared my interests to His against this declaration of assets, Excellency. There is supposed to whether it is for Councillors be one person who will safe guard or Members of Parliament. If the confidential information for a Councillor uses his office for the Councillors, not a group of corruption, there will be evidence people. Anyway, we will look into which will be used to take him to it but this financial declaration of court. Even if people declare their interests is covered elsewhere assets, there is nothing barring by other pieces of legislation. I them from continuing with their take it that you often hear about corrupt manners. The law is cases before the courts where clear on dealing with people who people are being accused of not acquire assets illegally, they will declaring their assets. Thank you, go to court. I am against the idea. Mr Chairman. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you, MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Honourable Minister. I take it Kgosi Lempadi. Honourable you were just citing the Guardian Members will show their and the Telegraph as examples? preference through resolution. Let us move on. HONOURABLE SIELE: Sorry, Mr Chairman. I was just citing KGOSI MACHILIDZA an example because usually (BOTETI REGION): I do Newspapers are used to leak appreciate Kgosi Lempadi’s confidential information; it could view but as we do these things,

87 Wednesday 25th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate) let us consider what is best for the give the Minister a go ahead due country. There are people who to ignorance. There should be an cannot account for their wealth. assessment of whether the people I believe they should share who give the Minister a go ideas with others so that they ahead, are reliable and whether could also progress in life and they have an understanding of pay taxes for the development these issues. Now, if we were of the country. If these things just to say we have consulted are not disclosed, people will the community in Mopipi or invade tax. Why would we fail Letlhakane for example and we to disclose our wealth if we are now going to dissolve the acquired it legitimately? This Council, will it be worth it? Let it could affect the economy of the be people who understand these country negatively. We need to things and can even question the investigate these things. Minister on what he is saying. Thank you. MR CHAIRMAN: Let us move on. KGOSI SEBOKO (BALETE): Thank you, Mr Chairman. This Clause 87 clause says, the Minister will take a decision after consulting Clause 88 the relevant community, in the Clause 89 - Dissolution of Kgotla. There will be compelling Councils reasons for that decision to be taken. The elders of the KGOSI MACHILIDZA: Clause community who will be present 89 - Dissolutions of Councils, will be aware of the evidence says, “the Minister may by Order as I believe Members of Ntlo publish in the Gazette and after ya Dikgosi, Moemela Kgosi consultation with the community, and Kgosana are members of where reasonably practicable, the Council. Our duty in the dissolve a Council ...” Council is to observe whether things are done properly. Where When we say that the Minister the Minister’s accusations to may dissolve the Council the Council are unfounded, we after consultation with the will indicate that the Minister is community, we should note that, wrong. Let us adopt this clause. the community in the Kgotla may Thank you. not necessarily be conversant with these issues, they may just

88 Wednesday 25th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate)

MR CHAIRMAN: Clauses 89 will say, “a fine not exceeding...” it would be just the maximum. Clauses 90 They pass sentences based on the Clause 91- Penalties aggravating factors and evidence. Thank you. KGOSI GAREBAKWENA (MOLEPOLOLE REGION): KGOSI TSHIPE I need clarification on clause 91. (MAHALAPYE REGION): It says if a person commits an Thank you, Mr Chairman. Still offence under this Act for which on Clause 91, we should look at there is no penalty, he will be these fines in comparison with fined, please clarify. other fines. I am saying this because it is said that this fine not MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable exceeding P5000 but they say the Minister, Clause 91. Kgosi says imprisonment should not exceed that if there is no offence then one year. I think P5000 and one there is no penalty; clarify the year do not correlate. It would penalties mentioned in Clause 91. be more appropriate if we were to say a sentence not exceeding MINISTER OF LOCAL one year or a fine not exceeding GOVERNMENT (HON. P2000; that is my suggestion. SIELE): Mr Chairman, he P5000 is too high as compared to would have been tried in court. one year, if anything, it could go Before a person goes for trial, with three years. Thank you, Mr the prosecutors look into the Chairman. facts of the case and determine whether they can charge that MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you, person with an offence. When a Kgosi Tshipe. When we say, case is brought up, they do not “not exceeding,” I take it that it just take it and charge a person. is just a guide that you can start The docket goes to the Director at zero but not go beyond P5000 of Public Prosecution’s office, depending on the fine the judge where they assess whether the wants to give. suspect has a case to answer or not. On the issue of fines, it is KGOSI TSHIPE: I understand, not good when it appears like Mr Chairman. Maybe the challenge we restrict magistrates or judges is that we do not understand each on how they judge cases. That is other. I do not have a problem why in most cases you find that it with, ‘not exceeding P5000,’ my worry is the years when compared

89 Wednesday 25th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 First Reading (Resumed Debate) to the money. One year does not Schedule 2 correlate with P5000. Service and user fees for KGOSI BOIDITSWE Councils (SEROWE REGION): This is a simple matter, we could even This is just a list of the services; include the value of the money. 1- 6. Even if it is P5000, the value may Schedule 3 be low. If the value is low, then it will correlate with that year. It is MR CHAIRMAN: If we do fine Kgosi, thank you. not have anything on Schedule 3, that is services for which MR CHAIRMAN: What do you service and user fees shall be set mean by value? Do you mean in by resolution of a Council, there terms of rates at the banks? is a list of such services in 1, 2, KGOSI BOIDITSWE: 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, Something like that. 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19. If we do not have anything here, we have MR CHAIRMAN: I take it that completed the Schedule. Kgosi will note his suggestion of comparing the money fined KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II: against the years of sentence Mr Chairman, if you are done so that he can propose it as a with Schedule 3, there was a resolution. suggestion which we made earlier on, that we should add schedule 4, Clause 91 – 94 which will be oath of allegiance. I just wanted that proposal to be on We are moving on if there are no the record, Mr Chairman. comments. The rules stipulate that any schedules to a Bill shall MR CHAIRMAN: Thank be dealt with in the same manner you, Kgosi Lotlamoreng II. I as clauses. take it that that proposal will be submitted as a resolution. With Schedule 1 that, Honourable Members, we have come to the end of the Functions of Councils Second Reading of the Local 1-20 . Government Bill, 2011 (No. 13 of 2011). Is there anything the I believe we are done with Minister would like to say before schedule 1. we proceed?

90 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Chairman’s Remarks

KGOSI MOSADI SEBOKO: will go back and review it and As the Minister responds, could craft it properly since we have he please touch on the issue of lawyers with us here. Thank you, public health? I did not get it. Mr Chairman. I had thought that the clinics have been transferred to Central MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Government. Do they still have Honourable Minister. Tomorrow anything on public health? Maybe we will be dealing with the Third he could just clarify. Thank you, Reading of this Bill being the Mr Chairman. resolution. I heard the Minister thanking us and bidding us MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable farewell as if he will not be with us Minister, we are left with three tomorrow. Anyway, Honourable minutes, please respond and Minister, I will not give you a leave some time for me to close. chance to give any explanation. Honourable Members, please wait MINISTER OF LOCAL here for a while, we have to discuss GOVERNMENT (HON. something for about five minutes. SIELE): Thank you, Mr Chairman. I would like to show MOTION my appreciation for the ideas and suggestions presented in ADJOURNMENT the House. These suggestions The House accordingly adjourned and ideas will, at some point, be at 3.58 p.m. until Thursday 26th submitted as resolution and they January, 2012 at 9.30 a.m. will be forwarded to the Ministry. We will look at the resolution Thursday 26th January, 2012 and ensure that when the Bill is passed to the Parliament, THE HOUSE met at 9.30 a.m. it is because of your input. I (THE CHAIRMAN in the appreciate the cooperation form Chair) Members. On Kgosi Mosadi P R A Y E R S Seboko’s issue, we still have the public health branch. The * * * * Councils are the ones responsible for ensuring adherence to public CHAIRMAN’S REMARKS health standards in shops. I would MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI like to thank this House for all PUSO GABORONE): Good the contributions in this Bill. We morning, Honourable Members.

91 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 Resolution

Let me also greet and welcome in order until one is accepted as a the Honourable Minister and basis for discussion, beginning those accompanying him. I with his or her own draft and believe that we can continue proceeding with the remainder with today’s programme. When in the order in which they were we adjourned yesterday, we brought up”. This means that I were still looking at the Local shall now receive the individual Government Bill, 2011 (No.13 draft resolutions regarding this of 2011). If I remember well, Bill. We shall discuss them in the we had concluded the Second order in which they have been Reading of the Bill. We shall brought. When the House has now continue from where we left reached an agreement then the off so that we conclude this Bill. Rules of Procedure continue to explain that, “when consideration LOCAL GOVERNMENT of a draft resolution, paragraph BILL, 2011 (No. 13 of 2011) by paragraph is concluded and Resolution when all motions relating to new paragraphs have been disposed MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you. of, the Chairperson shall put As I already pointed out, we have the question that the resolution concluded the Second Reading of be the resolution of the Ntlo ya our Bill, where we were dealing Dikgosi”. This means that all with it clause by clause and the that we shall agree upon will then schedules. We shall now begin be the resolution of this House. the Resolution. Rule 39 (6) in I am now ready to receive the our Rules of Procedure explains individual resolutions from the the procedure when it comes Members. to the resolution stage. It reads thus, “When consideration of a KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II: resolution of the Ntlo ya Dikgosi Thank you Mr Chairman. Allow on a Bill is taken, any Member me to present this draft resolution may bring a draft resolution on and appeal to the Members to the Bill for the consideration consider it. of the Ntlo ya Dikgosi and the MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you draft shall be entered in full on Kgosi Lotlamoreng. I have draft the minutes of proceedings of the resolution submitted by Kgosi Ntlo ya Dikgosi. When all such Lotlamoreng that he wishes the drafts have been brought up, the House to consider. We shall Chairperson shall move the drafts

92 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 Resolution now start with it. I believe that draft resolution should be added the Minister will be listening. to the existing Section 2 of the As I explained earlier on, each Townships Act, Mr Chairman. resolution shall be debated upon and where necessary an KGOSI GAREBAKWENA agreement shall be reached. (MOLEPOLOLE REGION): I The agreement shall then be the agree with Kgosi, Mr Chairman. I resolution of the House. I shall do however suggest that since the start with the first one which talks old Act states that consultations about declaration of a township. should be with the Council only, we should amend it. It should The draft resolution that I read that, “consultation with received reads thus, “that the relevant District Council and declaration of a township shall the community in the Kgotla”. not interfere with the existing I am saying this because if Bogosi in that area as per Bogosi the consultation is with the Act”. community in the Kgotla, then Kgosi will be present and the KGOSI SEBOKO (BALETE): community will protect its own Thank you Mr Chairman. I have interests. Thank you. a resolution that is different from that one. I suggest that Section KGOSI MACHILIDZA 2 of the Townships Act should (BOTETI): Thank you Mr remain as it is. I am not sure of Chairman. In support of Kgosi what the Local Government Act Seboko, I would like to point which we are referring to here out that we should take our says. However, I suggest that the regions into consideration when Township Act should be left as we discuss these issues. In our is. Thank you. areas where mines are being discovered, the fear we have MR CHAIRMAN: There is a is that townships are often far suggestion by Kgosi Seboko, from developing villages and she says that the Townships Act when those mines close down, should remain as it is in the old the townships will end up being Act and that is her resolution. deserted because they would not be serving any other purpose. KGOSI LOTLAMORENG My suggestion is that townships II: Mr Chairman, I agree with should be located nearer to the what Kgosi Seboko is saying. big villages so that in the event However, I suggest that even the

93 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 Resolution the mines close down, then the can benefit from what remains. buildings can be used for other Thank you. purposes. I think that initially when townships were established, MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you Batswana understood little about Kgosi Machilidza. I believe them, so the Afrikaners did as that the Minister is listening they wished. I can assure you that attentively and noting some after some years, Orapa is going suggestions regarding the to be a ghost town. Whenever the concerns on developments and mine closes for holidays, people certain decisions. leave for their villages and the KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH town remains empty, what will EAST DISTRICT): Thank become of it once the minerals you Mr Chairman. I support run out and the mines close? Kgosi Seboko’s suggestion Let us look into this clause, that this clause should be left through you Mr Chairman and as it is. I believe that we have the Honourable Minister, so that long had a welfare system that townships can be built nearer to brought equity in Botswana. The the big villages in the vicinity townships are declared by a Law of those mines. The money that which is different. I believe that is used for those townships are when the land tenure system was the profits from our minerals. introduced a lot of selfishness The mine houses can be sold to came into being. A lot of the Batswana rather than for the place things that we see happening in to become a ghost town. I do townships do not occur in our not dispute the fact that villages villages. experience different challenges however, I agree with what There shall come a time where Kgosi is saying. I am requesting some areas will be declared this in view of areas like Boteti townships however, I believe that which has many mines. There for now, there are things which must be a provision that if a we should focus on, like to give community wishes for such an Councils autonomy so that they arrangement then it should be can drive the local economy. granted. In Boteti we proposed Currently, there is a high level that townships should be built of centralisation. Our Councils in villages like Letlhakane and are governed by the Central Mopipi so that in future when the Government. I believe that the mines close down then people vast array of land that we have

94 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 Resolution in our districts belongs to our it to just about anyone who children who will be coming in can buy it then we are going to the future. We have noticed that face problems. This land is the in towns where the land tenure heritage of our children and a system is practised, there is a lot time will come when Batswana of greediness. Everyone is in a will be more educated and in need business of selling land. I think of more land. The businesses and the current Act is just fine. We the major part of the economy can leave it as it is. We have not generated in our towns and cities come to a point where we can add are not in the hands of Batswana. anything else because townships The land that is now left should have got their own challenges. be reserved for Batswana and There is the Sowa Township when we are now in a position which is characterised by a lot of to handle what comes with cities squatters. Jwaneng also has the and townships then we can same problem and people end declare them. Thank you. up experiencing what is called economic crime where there are MR CHAIRMAN: May I a lot of houses being demolished. remind Honourable Members I think that the facilitation of the that we have forty minutes to allocation of tribal land is still finish the resolutions and at 11 well managed and therefore I do o’clock we shall be dealing with not think Batswana in villages are something different. Please bear ready to deal with the situation that in mind as you debate. brought about by townships. KGOSI BOIDITSWE One Member once said that areas (SEROWE REGION): Thank like Palapye should be declared you Mr Chairman. We should townships because of their look into this issue carefully. We industrial basis. The suggestion should not be deterred by what was that we should look at the happened before and be afraid to potential of every area. I think try other things. I am of the view that we should explore and see that townships should be declared how Councils can be empowered where necessary. I believe that all to take developments to the things will be considered before people. We should do that instead such a declaration is made. We of giving away land haphazardly. have indicated that townships Batswana are complaining about help a lot in other things like land, so if we take the little land employment. The place becomes that we have left and we give

95 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 Resolution alive and there is a lot of we can vote on it rather than to activity. If you take a place like debate it afresh. Francistown for instance, you will discover that it is congested. MR CHAIRMAN: The draft that If there was a township nearby, I have with me reads thus, “that some people would move from declaration of the townships should Francistown to go and try their remain as defined or provided luck there. On the concern about under Section 2 of the township land, I do not think that there is Act and that the same Section anything that can be done because should be amended to include even in the rural areas people still consultation with community at misuse land for selfish interests. the Kgotla and that it should not All Land needs to be audited to interfere with the existing Bogosi ensure that it does not fall in the in that jurisdiction.” wrong hands. I think that if we That is the draft I have with me do not declare townships where and if it is appropriate then the necessary, we would be denying Rules of Procedure state that other people the right to a possible the Chairman shall move that prosperous future. Mr Chairman, the paragraph stand part of the I think that what the clause says resolution. In that case, I have read can work for us and we should the draft and so do the Members not fear change, otherwise we agree that the paragraph be the shall be stuck in a period. If there resolution of this House? are any disadvantages they will be addressed. You mentioned Question put and agreed to. that we have limited time Mr Chairman, and my stand is that MR CHAIRMAN: The next townships should be declared Draft resolution talks about the accordingly. Thank you. Constitution of Councils which is covered under Clause 13 (3) KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II where the Members expressed (BAROLONG): Mr Chairman, few qualms. I think it is the one I propose that since we have that mentions that some of the ex- debated this clause during the officio Members shall be Kgosi second stage, perhaps we should or Moemela Kgosi from the area adopt the resolution that Kgosi within which the subordinate Seboko has come up with and authority headquarters is amend what has been proposed. situated. Concerning that one the Maybe you could read it so that resolution before me states that,

96 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 Resolution

“all Members of Ntlo ya Dikgosi KGOSI MACHILIDZA be made ex-officio members of (BOTETI REGION): Thank the Council within their areas you Mr Chairman. I just want and regions. Dikgosi within the to add on to Kgosi Masunga’s jurisdiction of a Council should words, that there should be be appointed ex-officio members recognition of Dikgosi. There of the said Council and also with should be equality and fairness. particular reference to the North In the Law, you will usually East District and Kgalagadi find North East and Kgalagadi District. That Moemela Kgosi as Districts as well as Chobe and defined in Section 22 (2) of the Ghanzi being mentioned. I am Bogosi Act (41:01) in particular not sure if this system of having administrative district be also ex-officio members in Chobe and appointed an ex-officio Member Ghanzi Districts is still working. I of the Sub-District Council. do not see this four districts here. Is this resolution good for these KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH districts? Perhaps the Minister EAST DISTRICT): Mr Chairman, can clarify for us if this situation in short I agree with the resolution is appropriate. Thank you. as it is phrased. I hope that clause 13 of the Bill, which talks about MR CHAIRMAN: Perhaps the the ex-officio membership of Honourable Member for Chobe Kgosi or Moemela Kgosi covers can speak for himself and inform sub districts. If the amendment that us if at all the situation in Chobe is made concerns the sub-districts is the same as that of North East. you will appreciate that there are district headquarters, for example KGOSI MMUALEFHE Kgalagadi and Masunga, they are (CHOBE DISTRICT): Thank fully fledged districts. I believe that you Mr Chairman. It would be the time has come for Dikgosi who a great omission if Chobe and come from the district headquarters Ghanzi would be left out because to be given that respect and good constitutionally, Chobe and will that is due to them. We want North East are equal in terms to be informed about everything. of Bogosi. The Constitution This anomaly should be corrected. (Amendment) Act of 1978 If it is not corrected, then a motion depicts them in an equal manner. shall come here requesting that it I agree with Kgosi Machilidza, should be corrected. Thank you. they should be included in the resolution. Thank you.

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MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you be confusions when it comes to Kgosi Mmualefhe. This then voting. I suggest that it should means that the only addition be corrected and state that “an that is going to be made is that individual must be free to join of Chobe and Ghanzi districts in whichever party he or she desires Clause 3. Do we agree that they however, the seat must remain should be part of the Resolution vacant and be contested for.” of the House? The constituency, the party and the voter should be redeemed. Question put and agreed to. KGOSI KGARI III MR CHAIRMAN: Clause (BAKWENA): Thank you Mr 17 talks about the Vacation of Chairman. I want to advise the Seats. The Resolution here is Honourable Members to calm that, “Political floor crossing by down. They should not be too Members of the Council should concerned with what is wrong or be allowed.” what is written right. At this stage KGOSI BOIDITSWE we can vote and the majority (SEROWE REGION): I believe shall determine the status of the that the draft should not have resolution. Thank you. ended there. There was not even MR CHAIRMAN: I also want a vote on the draft to determine to add that there is nothing that whether we all agree with it or stops the Members from coming not. I take it that we could add up with something different the following to the draft “the from what we have written here. seat should remain within the If somebody has something party if a Member wishes to different they can bring it forth cross the floor.” The way it is and then a vote can be taken. currently phrased favours the group that said floor crossing KGOSI BOIDITSWE: It should be allowed. I am a bit appears like the seat is used as uncomfortable with the way it is an advantage to others in this phrased. Thank you. instance. There are two groups concerned in this clause because KGOSI MOETI II there are those who are saying (SPECIALLY ELECTED): I that a Member should be allowed agree with Kgosi Boiditswe. If to leave the party but not take his we can leave it as it is without or her seat along whilst others understanding it then there might are saying one should be free to

98 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 Resolution leave and take their seat along crossing by members of the to the new party. The way it is Council should be allowed”, it phrased here tilts the scale to should be clear to those who those who say that the Member wish for the Council Member should take the seat along to the not to cross with the seat that this new party. Thank you. resolution advocates that they should cross with the seat. This KGOSI MALOPE II will give one an opportunity to (BANGWAKETSE): Thank choose whether he or she agrees you Mr Chairman. I agree with with the proposal that a Council Kgosi Kgari’s suggestion that Member should vacate the seat we should vote on this draft when joining another party or resolution. We have deliberated leave with their seat. The way the a great deal on this issue, what draft is currently phrased means we would be doing will be just to that the Council Member shall waste time, my request therefore be leaving with his or her seat. If is that we vote. Thank you. you do not agree with that then your vote is a no. MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you Kgosi Malope. KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II (BAROLONG): Thank you KGOSI TSHIPE Mr Chairman. I understand (MAHALAPYE REGION): what Kgosi Moeti is saying. Thank you Mr Chairman. I agree My suggestion is that perhaps that we should vote on this issue we can move that clauses 1;( i), and those who agree with it shall (j), (k) and (l) should be deleted express so as well as those who from clause 17 since they are the do not. We have discussed it ones that talk about floor crossing at length and we all know the that we do not agree with. The reasons forwarded. Thank you. other clauses that talk about seats MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you. becoming vacant due to death and other factors should be left as they KGOSI MOETI II are. I think this might now settle (SPECIALLY ELECTED): I the confusion that is there. shall not be too long. I wanted to clarify something so that during MR CHAIRMAN: I have voting the Members should a draft resolution that says, not be confused. With the draft “That political floor crossing by that says, “That political floor members of the House should

99 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 Resolution be allowed”. Kgosi is suggesting that we should add this clause to the draft, “that clauses 1; (i), (j), (k) and (l) should be deleted since they contravene Section 13(1) of freedom of association of the Constitution”.

KGOSI KGARI III: Thank you Mr Chairman. I take it that what Kgosi Lotlamoreng is asking makes sense. Those who agree that they should be deleted will be choosing that the status quo remain and those who do not agree with floor crossing will choose that they should be maintained. I agree with the suggestion Mr Chairman.

MR CHAIRMAN: This then means that we can focus on the one that reads, “that sub clauses 1; ( i), ( j), (k), (l) should be deleted since it contravenes Section 13(1) of the Constitution that speaks of freedom of association. Those who agree with the resolution as it is should indicate by saying ‘aye’, and those who disagree should say ‘no’.

I cannot make out the majority and therefore a division shall be taken so that we can all understand what each Member wants. The Resolution reads thus, “that clause 17 Sub clauses 1; (i),(j),(k) and (1) should be deleted since it contravenes Section 13 of the Constitution of the Republic of Botswana on freedom of association.”

DIVISION OF THE HOUSE

The House was divided as follows:

MEMBER’S NAME AYE NO ABSTAIN ABSENT Kgosi Boiditswe x Kgosi Esterhuizen x Kgosi Gaborone x Kgosi Gaoonwe x Kgosi Garebakwena x Kgosi Kahiko x Kgosi Kgamane x Kgosi Kgari III x Kgosi Lempadi x

100 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 Resolution

Kgosi Lotlamoreng II x Kgosi Machilidza x Kgosi Malema x Kgosi Malope II x Kgosi Masunga x Kgosi Mmualefhe x Kgosi Moeti II x Kgosi Monnaathebe x Kgosi Montshiwa x Kgosi Moremi x Kgosi Moroka x Kgosi Moseki x Kgosi Ndzonga x Kgosi Ramokone x Kgosi Ramokwena x Kgosi Potsoeng x Kgosi Seboko x Kgosi Seeletso x Kgosi Seemeko x Kgosi Sekwenyane x Kgosi Sinvula x Kgosi Telekelo x Kgosi Tshipe x Kgosi Toto II x Kgosi Xao x TOTAL 14 14 4 2

MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable Members, from the numbers that I see here it is apparent that you do not know what you are voting for. I am saying this because the resolution before us is, “that political floor crossing by members of the Council should be allowed,” but there is also the issue of whether when a Council member chooses to leave his or her political party then they should leave the seat behind. 101 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 Resolution

There was a resolution that was like to indicate that I am a bit proposed that suggested that (i), uncomfortable with the end part (j),( k) and (l) should be removed of the draft resolution that says and hence the resolution that that all those sub-sections that read, ‘That clauses 1 (i), (j), (k) you want removed contravene and (l) should be deleted,’ since the Constitution. It would now it contravenes section 16 of our appear as if the Ministry of Constitution. This then implies Local Government has come up that when you agree with the with a Bill that contravenes the draft then you are saying that Constitution. My request then they should be deleted and when to the Chairman is for that last you disagree then you are saying part to be removed because it that they should be retained and has not been ascertained that the clause should remain as it is. it does indeed contravene the I shall request the assistance of Constitution. That is all I wanted the Legal Counsel to advise on to say. Thank you. this resolution. MR CHAIRMAN: If the ACTING PARLIAMENTARY Honourable Members permit COUNSEL (MS K. then we can remove that because MUKONGWA): It is exactly ultimately what is important is to as the Chairman is saying. Those delete what is unnecessary. Our who agree that (i), (j), (k) and statistics are as follows: (l) should be deleted then you are simply saying the person Abstain 4 should take their seat with them Absent 2 and if you choose ‘no’ you are saying that floor crossing should Yes 14 be allowed but the seat should No 14 remain. Total 34

MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable This means that the votes are a Minister, do you wish to clarify tie. anything? KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II ASSISTANT MINISTER OF (BAROLONG): Thank you Mr LOCAL GOVERNMENT Chairman. Since the votes tied, (HON MOTOWANE): Thank can the Chairman not use his you Mr Chairman. I greet you all discretion to decide the vote? I Honourable Members and I would

102 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 Resolution am saying this because we had understood what we were voting for and therefore that is why I am suggesting that the Chairman should decide the vote.

MR CHAIRMAN: For the purpose of progress let us repeat the voting and we have said in our draft resolution that Sub-clauses 1 (i), (j), (k) and (l) should be deleted in this clause. I take it that even the explanation that was given was understood by the Honourable Members.

The House in Division; the House was divided as follows:

H O N O U R A B L E YES NO ABSTAIN ABSENT MEMBER Kgosi Boiditswe √ Kgosi Esterhuizen √ Kgosi Gaborone √ Kgosi Gaoonwe √ Kgosi Garebakwena √ Kgosi Kahiko III √ Kgosi Kgamane √ Kgosi Kgari III √ Kgosi Lempadi √ Kgosi Lotlamoreng II √ Kgosi Machilidza √ Kgosi Malema √ Kgosi Malope II √ Kgosi Masunga √ Kgosi Mmualefhe √ Kgosi Moeti II √ Kgosi Monnaathebe √ Kgosi Montshiwa √ Kgosi Moremi √ Kgosi Moroka √

103 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 Resolution

Kgosi Moseki √ Kgosi Ndzonga √ Kgosi Ramokone √ Kgosi Ramokwena √ Kgosi Potsoeng √ Kgosi Seboko √ Kgosi Seeletso √ Kgosi Seemeko √ Kgosi Sekwenyane √ Kgosi Sinvula √ Kgosi Telekelo √ Kgosi Tshipe √ Kgosi Toto II √ Kgosi Xao √ TOTAL 15 12 3 4

This then means that the Ayes have it.

Question put and agreed to.

I suggest that we continue with our resolution. In this Bill, Clause 22 Honourable Members, makes reference to the number of committees, which is seven. The draft resolution reads thus, ‘That a Council should make representation to the Minister to increase the number of committees to more than seven (7), in accordance with the needs of the Council.’

Question put and agreed to.

MR CHAIRMAN: Clause 24 talks about the quorum and it says that the quorum is supposed to be more than half of the members. The Resolution of the Members is, ‘that the quorum for the meetings of the Council be constituted by the presence of more than two thirds of the members.

Question put and agreed to.

104 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 Resolution

MR CHAIRMAN: Clause 36 MR CHAIRMAN: Does Kgosi talks about the appointment of confirm that they fall under non- staff and functions of the Town commercial entities? Clerk or the Council Secretary. The draft resolution of the House KGOSI MACHILIDZA: reads, ‘that the Council Secretary Normally the owners of such and Town Clerk be accountable cattle posts are the beneficiaries to the Council Chairman and of FAP and the youth grants Mayor respectively.’ livestock programmes. I do not think that they can be declared Question put and agreed to. to be commercial even though the aim is to eventually go Clause 39 talks about the Valuation commercial. and Rating of Properties, ‘The Minister in regulating procedures MR CHAIRMAN: Do we for valuation, rating of properties, agree with this resolution adding the fixing and levying of rates the amendment from Kgosi within a Council, may exclude Machilidza? masimo and non-commercial residential properties, and that Question put and agreed to. tribal properties including MR CHAIRMAN: Clause 44. registered groups of women, The resolution of this House is vulnerable people and youth be that where there is a mention exempted from paying the rates. of the word ‘consultation, then The addition that has been made it should be stated that the is that tribal properties and other ‘consultation should be done with charitable institutions should be the community at the Kgotla.” Is exempted from paying the rates. there anyone who has a comment KGOSI MACHILIDZA on that one? (BOTETI REGION): Thank KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II you Mr Chairman. Yesterday (BAROLONG): Mr Chairman, I there was a certain section where think that the word ‘consultation’ there was a mention of masimo does not appear only on clause 44 (ploughing fields). There are and 49. The phrase “Community also cattle posts near masimo at the Kgotla,” should appear that are non-commercial. I think everywhere when we talk of they should be included as well consultation. because masimo and cattle posts are related entities.

105 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 Resolution

MR CHAIRMAN: In other The Resolution we have here words, Kgosi Lotlamoreng II is reads thus, “that assets of village suggesting that wherever the word development committees should ‘consultation’ appears it should remain in the custody of the state that the consultation is done community and that communities with the community at the Kgotla. should be empowered on issues of assets management.” Question put and agreed to. Question put and agreed to. PROCEEDINGS SUSPENDED FOR TEA MR CHAIRMAN: Clause 84: The Resolution here is that ‘prior MR CHAIRMAN: Clause 68. I consultation with Council be greet you once more Honourable considered before the Minister Members. I wish to remind the rejects, varies or amends a Honourable Members that the resolution of a Council.” time for us to come back from tea is 11:00 a.m. The siren that we Question put and agreed to. normally hear would be signaling that the time is up and therefore MR CHAIRMAN: Clause 86: Members should be back in The other Resolution is the one the House. I suggest that we that talks about the declaration continue with our resolutions, we of financial interests. It says had stopped at Clause 68 which ‘that the declaration of financial was part of our past resolutions interests be made to a Committee in the old Bill however, in this or Board.” new Bill, it was not captured the Question put and agreed to. way we had put it at that time. It reads thus, ‘that a brief version of MR CHAIRMAN: Clause the annual statement or abstract 91: This Resolution addresses of the Auditor General’s report penalties. The Resolution should be published in the press. suggests that the Clause should It was one of our old resolutions. be amended and read thus, ‘a Is there any comment on it? person who commits an offence under this act for which no other Question put and agreed to. penalty is provided is liable to MR CHAIRMAN: Clause 80 a fine not exceeding P2 000 or talks about the establishment of to imprisonment for a term not village development committees. exceeding one year or both.’ The amendment on that part is the

106 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 Resolution reduction of the money from P5 000 to P2 000. We shall now vote on whether the resolution should remain this way or not.

KGOSI TSHIPE (MAHALAPYE REGION): Thank you Mr Chairman. I wanted to clarify why we felt that this resolution should be brought before this House.

MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi Tshipe, I believe that you justified yesterday. What we were clarifying here with the Legal Council was whether we had captured exactly what was requested and that is reducing the fine to P2 000.

KGOSI BOIDITSWE (SEROWE REGION): Thank you Mr Chairman. I believe that the reason why it is not easy for you to make out which is the majority between those who agree with the clause and those who do not is because some of the microphones were not switched on. The Members should ensure that when they state their preferences, their microphones have been switched on.

MR CHAIRMAN: I do not understand why you do not use the technological devices that have been installed before you. I request that we continue with this resolution and I am going to use the division list since I could not clearly make out your responses. Before we start calling out the names I shall read out the resolution once more and it reads thus, “a person who commits an offence under this Act for which no other penalty is provided for is liable to a fine not exceeding P2 000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding one year or both.” If you say yes then it means that you agree with this resolution as it is and when you say no it means that you are against it and you want the clause to remain as it is.

Division of the House

MEMBER’S NAME AYE NO ABSTAIN ABSENT Kgosi Boiditswe √ Kgosi Esterhuizen √ Kgosi Gaborone √ Kgosi Gaoonwe √ Kgosi Garebakwena √

107 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 Resolution

Kgosi Kahiko III √ Kgosi Kgamane √ Kgosi Kgari III √ Kgosi Lempadi √ Kgosi Lotlamoreng II √ Kgosi Machilidza √ Kgosi Malema √ Kgosi Malope II √ Kgosi Masunga √ Kgosi Mmualefhe √ Kgosi Moeti II √ Kgosi Monnaathebe √ Kgosi Montshiwa √ Kgosi Moremi √ Kgosi Moroka √ Kgosi Moseki √ Kgosi Ndzonga √ Kgosi Ramokone √ Kgosi Ramokwena √ Kgosi Potsoeng √ Kgosi Seboko √ Kgosi Seeletso √ Kgosi Seemeko √ Kgosi Sekwenyane √ Kgosi Sinvula √ Kgosi Telekelo √ Kgosi Tshipe √ Kgosi Toto II √ Kgosi Xao √ TOTAL 20 8 1 5

108 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Local Government Bill, 2011 Resolution

MR CHAIRMAN: Those who under his or her hand and the agree with the clause are 20, and hand of the Chairperson as a true those who disagree with it are 8, copy thereof to the Clerk of the 5 Members are absent, and so National Assembly.’ I believe this basically means that the ayes that all the procedure that I have have it. just read out will be followed and I would like to thank the Minister Question agreed to. and to give him an opportunity to The other Resolution is the one conclude. that reads, ‘that a new Schedule ASSISTANT MINISTER OF on the oath of allegiance or LOCAL GOVERNMENT affirmation be provided in this (HON. MOTOWANE): Thank Law. you Mr Chairman as well as the Question put and agreed to. Honourable Members. I would like to appreciate the fact that even I believe that we have concluded though this Bill is in the House the resolution of this House for the second time, you did not regarding the Local Government complain that you had already Bill 2011 (No.13 of 2011). This dealt with it before. I am grateful resolution is what the House that Dikgosi looked into this issue has agreed upon and I do not and submitted their opinions. think that there is anything that As the Honourable Minister, has been left behind in terms Mr Siele, indicated yesterday, of the resolutions of this Bill. there are a lot of suggestions This means that the resolutions and recommendations that have are going to be compiled and been made since this Bill was presented as the resolution of this introduced. We are now going House. Procedurally, I have to to look into them and adopt what now ask the House if indeed this we can. We also agree that it is is the resolution of this House. important that there should be some amendments made which Question put and agreed to. will go hand in hand with what Dikgosi have expressed. As This is the resolution of this Dikgosi are aware, from here House regarding the Local this Bill and the resolutions of Government Bill, 2011 (No.13 of this House will be taken to the 2011). Rule 39(10) states that ‘the National Assembly so that at Secretary shall forward a copy of the end, this Bill would have every such resolution certified

109 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2011 - First Reading been discussed by both Houses. CONSTITUTION I would like to emphasise that we (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2011 have heard the advice and there (NO. 15 OF 2011) are plenty of suggestions that (Minister for Presidential Affairs Dikgosi gave that we would like and Public Administration) to adopt. Thank you. First Reading MR CHAIRMAN: I take this opportunity to thank both the MR CHAIRMAN: Let me Honourable Assistant Minister welcome the Minister for and the Honourable Minister. Presidential Affairs and Public I thank the delegates from the Administration, Honourable Ministry of Local Government Mokgweetsi Masisi. We have for being with us during these already made the presentation for four days when we were the First Reading and we have discussing this Bill. I think that been waiting for you since you it is important to acknowledge were late but anyway you are the good cooperation that we welcome to the House. As it has have had and I hope that even in already been announced, we shall future we shall continue to work now begin with the First Reading well together since there is no of the Constitution (Amendment) way our two departments could Bill. I will allow the Honourable ever stop working together. I Minister, to present the Bill. Once urge you to continue advising that has been done then the usual the Government on all the Laws procedure can be followed. that are yet to come and the expectation is that these would MINISTER FOR be Laws that will benefit the P R E S I D E N T I A L country as well as the nation. AFFAIRS AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION (MR M. I thank you, Honourable E. MASISI): Compliments of Members for your patience and I the new season Kgosi and Good am aware that we were pressed morning Sir. I must begin by for time in order to finish the Bill thanking you for this opportunity, this week. I believe that it is your and let me proceed in haste. patience that enabled us to finish the Bill. Thank you and we shall Mr Chairman, the Constitution now continue with the business (Amendment) Bill, 2011 of the House. (No.15 of 2011) was presented to Parliament and referred to 110 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2011 - First Reading

Ntlo ya Dikgosi on the 29th of iv) Causing of a vacancy in the September 2011 as provided seat of a specially elected for under Section 88(2) of the member if the member did Constitution of Botswana. not have political party affiliation when specially This Bill seeks to amend elected and subsequently Section 68 of the Constitution of joins a political party. Botswana to allow for: Mr Chairman, effect of the i) The causing of vacancy in the proviso is to ensure that coming seat of an elected member, into effect of the amendment does where such a member not immediately create a vacancy ceases to be a member of in the seat of those members the political party which who have already changed nominated him or her as a their political allegiance. Upon candidate for election to the the coming into effect of this National Assembly. amendment, such members shall be deemed to have been elected ii) Causing a vacancy in the to the assembly in the current seat of an elected member political seats. I thank you. who having been nominated and elected to the National MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you Assembly as an independent Honourable Minister. I believe candidate joins a political that the Minister was explaining party. the intentions of this Bill as well as the reasons why it was brought iii) In case of a specially elected before this House. I hope that member, causing of vacancy the Honourable Members were if he or she ceases to be a listening to the presentation. member of the political party We shall now begin the first he or she was a member of at stage which is the first reading the time he or she was specially of our Bill and I believe that the elected. Similarly, the seat of Members are well aware of what a specially elected member the procedure is. We shall be should become vacant where looking at the general merits and he or she was a member of a principles of the Bill. political party when specially elected and subsequently he or KGOSI BOIDITSWE she becomes an independent (SEROWE REGION): Thank candidate. you Mr Chairman as well as the

111 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2011 - First Reading

Honourable Minister for bringing to do. The community should be this Bill before this House. In able to exercise their democratic the previous Bill, we talked right by being given a chance to about Councillors who represent re-elect the person they wish to wards with a population of have. about 1000 people. Here we are talking about a Member of the One other suggestion that I have National Assembly representing is that the parties could consult a population of 8000 to 9000 with the community whenever people. This simply means that their Member wishes to leave the these two seats are not equal even party in order to find out whether though they both have certain the voters have any problem with political responsibilities. that or not. Then the costs of the re-election if any should be borne Mr Chairman, we have spoken by that particular party and not about this issue before and stated the Government. Mr Chairman, that there is no one who can be we have talked about this issue a forbidden to follow their heart if lot and the only difference with they want to leave one party and this issue is that we are talking join another. What we are saying about the elected Members with is that if the elected Members higher responsibilities. I conclude wish to join a different party by citing an example of one then they should vacate their constituency where the Member seats because the voters would of Parliament had left his original have voted for them whilst they party but the Councillors chose to belonged to a different party. remain with it. This has brought They will get another chance to about animosities amongst these contest in that party that they people. It is now difficult for the would have joined. We have been Member of Parliament to call explaining that parties have what meetings and he would rather is referred to as a manifesto. That choose just few people to take is what the politicians present to them for workshops and so on. us when they campaign. They The community has been left tell us what their party intends to hanging and wondering where do if they win. This is why I feel their representative is. As a that an elected Member should result of this, the developments leave their seat behind when they are stalled and therefore Mr defect to another party as that Chairman, I maintain that the would be the democratic thing Members of Parliament should

112 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2011 - First Reading leave their seats should they wish very expensive. In my area, it is to defect to another party. Thank worse because it is a vast area. It you. is not like some constituencies which are so small that one KGOSI LEMPADI can cover them within a day. (OKAVANGO REGION): We should look into this issue Thank you Mr Chairman. This carefully and consider whether is not going to be a long debate this would be a viable decision. since the issue is similar to the We have been saying that the one we debated in the previous economy has gone down and Bill. There is really no significant we have had strikes with people difference and the only issue that demanding wage increases I can raise is that whenever we which they could not be given. make Laws, we should consider How do we then come up with whether the economy can be able this law that is going to require to sustain what we are proposing. funding when the economy does Will the economy be able to not permit? Thank you. maintain these new developments that we want to introduce? The MR CHAIRMAN: Which small old or existing Laws have not constituencies do you refer to posed any substantial challenges. Kgosi? Adding on to what Kgosi Boiditswe said, I feel that what KGOSI LEMPADI: I was he suggested would be a noble referring to areas like Ramotswa gesture because a referendum Constituency, which is so small would be able to depict the that the Member of Parliament voter’s feelings with regard to can cover it within a day. their elected Member defecting KGOSI TSHIPE to another party or standing as (MAHALAPYE REGION): an independent candidate. The Thank you Mr Chairman. Thank people will be able to determine you Honourable Minister for whether they want that Member bringing this motion to this to go with the seat or leave it. House. This issue is similar to We should also consider that the one we have just debated when the Member leaves the seat, concerning Councils. I feel that then elections would have to be this one however, is a bit complex conducted in order to fill that seat as compared to the one about the and as we all know, elections are Councils. The main issue is that this particular one refers to the

113 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2011 - First Reading

Parliament and I agree with the the party at the High Court. If Bill as presented to us. My belief ever there is a mass defection is that if a Member of Parliament of the Members of Parliament has to leave the seat behind when to another party then that defecting to another party, then means the country might end up the holding of a bye-election having a change in Presidency. is a clear sign of democracy. People would end up having a We should acknowledge that President they did not prefer. I democracy is expensive and its believe that this one carries more aftermath is expensive as well. weight than the one concerning When we speak of a Member the Councillors and hence the of Parliament, we are talking reason why we should really about a person who represents pay particular attention to details the Government and we should and make the best decision. The remember such things as we rights of the voters are very discuss this issue. We should important in our voting system consider that if ever a substantial Mr Chairman. It is the one that group of Members of Parliament motivates us to insist that if one can decide to defect from a decides to leave their party then ruling party, then that might there should be new elections prompt change of Governance. held in order to fill that vacant When there is that change then, seat. If at all people would still this means that the voters get be interested in that candidate, something different from what then they would vote for him or they voted for. These are some her wherever he or she will be of the things that we should bear contesting. It is not to deny that in mind. candidate his/her rights, however it is to grant the voters the chance We should also bear in mind that to exercise their civil liberties on the President is voted in by the whether they want to re-elect that Parliament or his party which person or not. will be having a majority number of Members of Parliament, Mr Chairman, on the issue therefore we know that the concerning the independent Constitution gives the President candidates, I would like to say certain powers. We also know that the particular individual is that before an individual can nominated based on his or her stand for Presidency, they should capabilities as well as the way be endorsed as a party leader by he presented himself or herself to

114 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2011 - First Reading the people. Some do not belong 27 times for the last 217 or 219 to any particular party and so if years. It is not wrong to amend eventually that person decides the Constitution, however, we to join a particular party then should pay attention to the parts it means that those who had of the Constitution that are being voted him or her by virtue of changed and decide whether they being independent would have will be of benefit to the nation. their rights violated. Under We all know that we are here such circumstances there should to look into the proposal of the be a re–election and then the amendment of Section 68 of the candidate will be voted under Constitution. It is well within that particular party that he or our rights that the Constitution she would have joined. The can be amended but we must same applies to the Specially consult the nation. There should Elected candidates. There should be proper consultations so that also be re-elections should one the people can be aware of what wish to join a particular party. is happening. The amendment I wholeheartedly believe that if of a Section of the Constitution this Bill could be agreed upon as that talked about the changing it is then it would have done this of voting eligibility from 18 country a lot of justice such that to 21 years was discussed at some of these occurrences could length and eventually there was be curbed. Thank you. a referendum to find out what the nation thought about it. I believe KGOSI KAHIKO III (GHANZI that the same route that was WEST REGION): Thank taken then should be explored you, Mr Chairman, allow me to again. We should go back to the comment on this issue before us. nation to gather their thoughts I believe that the Constitution of on this issue. If they agree with Botswana is a good Constitution. it then we can continue with the However, there are a lot of implementation of the Law, if changes happening around and not, then we shall see how best so if there is a need to change it, we can approach it. we should. What might be good today might not necessarily be The important issue here is good tomorrow. As we are aware, the voting system. If there is most developed countries like an independent candidate in a the United States have amended certain area who gets to win their Constitutions more than the elections, it simply implies

115 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2011 - First Reading that he or she was voted for by then they should leave their seats members of those other parties. behind. The fact of the matter is Such occurrences demonstrate that the members spend so much that Batswana are now well money to be able to get that informed and they no longer seat. We should pay attention to vote for parties but rather for these issues and if at all there is individuals looking at their a problem then the nation is the capabilities in the political field. one which can be able to solve That is one point that we should this and not us as Members of acknowledge. We should bear in this House. I will not dwell much mind that even though we say that on this issue. Mr Chairman, we Members should leave their seats know that there are instances behind when they defect to other where we get Specially Elected parties, they might not have been Members of Parliament, not voted by the members of their all of them are politicians. We party only. There is no evidence therefore cannot be sure of the of that and therefore that is why I criterion used to choose them. do not agree with this Bill. Membership to political parties is an individual’s secret. How As we are well aware, the do we determine which party the Government does not sponsor nominated individual belongs to? political parties and therefore That is one issue that we should everyone is responsible for bear in mind. We do not dispute paying their own campaign. At the fact that it is only proper times by the end of the campaign for the rights of the voter to be candidates would be left with considered in this case but we nothing or even suffering from have to consider the economic stroke or high blood pressure situation as well. We are currently because of the stress that was faced with shortage of funds and involved. In other countries some developments have been parties are given funds to suspended due to that fact. Will sponsor their campaigns when we afford to have bye–elections the elections approach. It is done or there will be a special reserve in our neighbouring country budget that will be set aside Zambia. If we were funding as emergency funds for bye- the political parties, then we elections? Lastly, we know that would have a prerogative to say the Presidency is determined by that when their representatives the majority seats in Parliament choose to defect to another party, and that is why I am saying that

116 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2011 - First Reading the times have changed and as and Malawi. Other countries like such what we consider to be a the United Kingdom, Australia solution to this problem should and Canada have had a lot of be implemented. If at all the plan floor crossing and it continues to is to avoid change of Presidency be practised in the present day. due to defection of Members of I therefore, do not see any point Parliament of a ruling party to why we should change things another party, then it is only right that are not bothering the nation. to amend the Constitution so that I still reiterate that people are the President can be elected as not bothered because they know well. I personally do not agree that there are other avenues to with this amendment due to the follow in instances where they reasons that I have advanced. are dissatisfied with a certain Thank you. candidate. An example that I can cite is the one concerning KGOSI POTSOENG (NGAMI the Botswana Movement for REGION): Thank you Mr Democracy (BMD), whereby the Chairman. I do not support this Councillors moved a vote of no Bill. I do not see it necessary for confidence against one candidate us to stand here and support the because they were aware that destruction of our democratic they had that option. They did rule. I am pleased that as we not take away that Member’s are discussing we had an seat but rather they removed the opportunity to read a paper that Member from the chairmanship explained what is happening in position because they were not other countries in regards to floor happy with his administration. I crossing. Some of the countries suggest that in instances where that practise floor crossing are the there is such a situation then countries that we benchmarked people should be taught about from for our democratic. Mr this provision of the declaration Chairman, with your permission of the vote of no confidence. I would like to cite an example This Bill wants us to make a Law from this paper that discusses a that would depict our democracy case study on floor crossing. This as unstable. I think that is the paper says that there are only two reason why most developed countries that amended the Law countries have left this practice upon realising that the practice of to prevail, they did not want floor crossing was not favourable their democracy to dwindle. As to them and these are Zambia you read on in this case study,

117 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2011 - First Reading you will realise that Germany MR POTSOENG: The paper once considered abolishing floor that Kgosi Boiditswe is referring crossing but they realised that it to has been meticulously written cannot be possible... Honourable Members. It shows that between 1950 and 2004, 24% KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Thank of the Members of Parliament you Mr Chairman. I wanted to of Australia defected from their caution Kgosi to pay attention parties but they still retained to the fact that this case study their Parliamentary Membership. was conducted in countries like I do not know if he did not see Zambia and Malawi. We on the that part. Mr Chairman, I believe other hand want to devise a law that we should try to protect our that will dictate that a Member democracy. The nation is not should leave their seat behind bothered by this phenomenon. If when they defect to another party. at all people were concerned then Zambia, Malawi and Germany it would be justifiable to be doing do not say anything about the this. However, the people are of seat when defecting to another the notion that every Member of party. We can have floor crossing Parliament is here because they like them but the only difference have been voted. They know would be that in our country we that the Member of Parliament want the candidates to move represents every Motswana and without seats. This paper does after every five years they have not mention anything about what the chance to vote for whoever to do with a Member’s seat when they want. Thank you. they decide to leave the party but rather it focuses on the practice MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you of floor crossing. Thank you. Kgosi Potsoeng.

KGOSI POTSOENG (NGAMI KGOSI TELEKELO REGION): Thank you Mr (MOSHUPA REGION): Thank Chairman. I am grateful for that you Mr Chairman. I would like clarification and please allow to start off by indicating that me to read from this paper Mr the problem with the practice Chairman. of floor crossing lies with the candidates who have been voted MR CHAIRMAN: I do not by the people. If the one who permit you to read that paper would be defecting would not Kgosi Potsoeng. Please continue have been voted then it is not a with your debate.

118 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2011 - First Reading problem. I am concerned because not to vote because they are I have heard those who have unmotivated by this practice debated describing democracy in of floor crossing. I support this a way that I do not understand. Bill Mr Chairman. A Member of I believe that democracy is Parliament (MP) who chooses to considering what the majority of defect from his or her party should the people want, just as we are leave the seat behind. If at all the doing in this House. If at all an people would have voted for an individual chooses to disregard individual and not the party, then the votes of 8,000 or 10,000 they shall vote for that person people who would have voted when he or she contests from the for him or her in a particular new party. Nowadays it is not party by defecting to a different easy for political parties to grow, party, is that democracy? That they only experience growth in is an individual decision and not membership through this practice a democracy and in saying that of floor crossing. Even though I would like to point out that I political parties are currently do not agree with the practice not being sponsored, I believe that an individual can choose that eventually they will be and to defect to another party after this makes one wonder where being voted as a representative the money for sponsoring many of a particular party. All I can upcoming parties is going to be say is that if one chooses to leave obtained from. Mr Chairman, then they should leave their seat I would like to conclude by behind. Mr Chairman I believe saying that we are currently that if a person has been voted experiencing changing times and into Parliament by the people, if at all it has not been essential he or she gets paid for that and to make any changes before then if they choose to leave then they the time is now. We should not should leave all that behind. The live as if we are people who are money that could have been used not aware that there are changes to pay that person can then be in this world. Thank you. used for another re-election. MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you There are concerns of voter apathy Kgosi Telekelo. in Botswana, Mr Chairman. As we know, Batswana do not talk KGOSI MACHILIDZA much, therefore I believe that (BOTETI REGION): Thank they might have made a decision you Mr Chairman. I am grateful

119 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2011 - First Reading for the contributions by other it is not the case on the ground Members. We are talking about because the country is ruled by a the Constitution of a country that small group of people. They make has been hailed as the epitome of laws for them. These proposed democracy in Africa and beyond. changes are emanating from that What surprises me though is that small group who feel that we are there are Members here who supposed to make changes to the are always too willing to allow Constitution so that people can the Bills to go through. The real fear to follow their own choices question is, what really happened simply because they would lose to prompt an amendment of this their seats. section of the Constitution? We know that in Botswana Some political parties once people mostly venture into queried that the political level politics because they want to earn amongst parties should be brought a living and that is a fact. There up to par through sponsorship, so is no requirement that one should that they can be able to afford be of a certain economic status campaigns. This would be a form in order to qualify to stand as a of commitment, so that in future candidate. The practice that we Batswana can have authority are currently fond of is whereby over them as they would have some people hastily amend laws used their resources to sponsor without considering other parts of those parties. That request was the law. The Government should not successful. In 1988 when have put some contingencies the first split in a party occurred, in place to say that if at all we had been aware of some one has invested in their own rumours and because there was campaigns then that individual failure to reach a compromise, has got certain privileges like for we knew where this occurrence example to have a prerogative was leading to. Independent to choose a conducive party to newspapers used to write about belong to. There are instances the consequences of such in many countries where there phenomena. Other Honourable will be no clear winner after Members have indicated that the elections and parties would ours is a democratic rule that then end up coming together is governed by the voice of the to form a coalition. These are majority. It is supposed to be that some of the things that occur and way however, we all know that are even provided for in their

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Constitutions. Do you think we There are a lot of initiatives can have that in Botswana or that were implemented amidst would we hold re-elections until protests like the system of the winner emerges? Let us look proportional representation and at these issues from both angles. I think that we are slowly going In Israel it has happened that into that direction with this issue. parties, who won the majority We should rather ensure that votes but not enough to take parties are sponsored during over governance, formed an campaigns so that we can avoid alliance in order to make a a democracy built by people stronger party. Mr Chairman, who only joined politics just with your permission can I give as a means to earn a living. In Kgosi the chance to speak? I countries where people get into have noticed that he wishes to politics to represent the people speak… Anyway, we should and not for economic gain, you establish the fear that will drive will find that those politicians are us to call for some changes to be not afraid to voice their concerns. considered and we know that in In our situation, the politicians this case it is political fear. The are afraid of airing their views for powers that be are the ones who fear of being victimised whereas are concerned in this instance. I we want the kind of democratic personally do not think that floor representation where one is not crossing brings any problems afraid to speak out. What we at all. For the past 46 years of practise in Africa whereby laws independence, we have witnessed are made overnight or changed an occurrence of different events many times to suit particular however, we did not experience people’s needs is not right. Kgosi any intense instability. The only Masunga highlighted earlier on reason we are talking about this is when we were considering the because this practice has affected Local Government Bill that the certain people, hence the call problem is that those who want for a Constitutional amendment. this to happen forget that they Mr Chairman, we are here as will be affected as well. representative of the people and that is the case with the Members We do not pay attention to such of Parliament as well. An MP is things, however, it is imperative not voted by the members of his that we do because there is a party only. He even represents tendency to change certain things those who did not vote for him. in politics to accommodate a

121 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2011 - First Reading certain group of individuals will say it as it is, if it continues to who believe that such changes be done in an unorderly manner. should be made. Some of us I will stand for whatever might feel that floor crossing does not come after I have had my say harm anybody. It might harm because we cannot continue to a political organisation but not keep quiet just to please some the country. Batswana must people. At times it does occur therefore be empowered for such that one becomes unhappy in changes. We have Specially a certain organisation because Elected Members of Parliament they are not treated well by the and Councillors; they are using management. Why are people not our money, who voted for those allowed to voice their disapproval people since Batswana have whenever they are not satisfied their own representatives whom with something? And why are they have voted for? There are the leaders never taken to task in a lot of systems and policies order to address such complaints? that are questioned by Batswana Why would we come up with and not attended to. The Balopi laws which seek to punish those Commission revealed that who choose to leave for reasons of the nation proposed that the being ill-treated whilst those who specially elected members ill-treat them are not being called system should be abolished and to task? Leaders should be taken the only representatives should to task for their misdeeds as well. be the ones that have been voted It is not only the fault of those who for. The nation must be taken on choose to leave the party but there board. We should pay attention are circumstances within the party to such things because nowadays that may force one to evaluate people are well informed and whether they want to be in that they can tell the direction in party or not. I still maintain that which things are going. in countries like Namibia where there were incidents of people Mr Chairman, maybe I should like Hidipo Hamutenya leaving take advantage of this forum and the party. There are also instances voice my opinions whilst I still where individuals like Dr Simba have the chance. We should state Makoni left the Zimbabwe the truth because there are a lot of African National Union - Patriotic issues that are being ignored. I, Front (ZANU-PF) but that did not Oreagetse Machilidza, am stating result in any re-election. what I feel is unpalatable and I

122 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2011 - First Reading

Kgosi Boiditswe pointed out and the emerging of Botswana that we should come up with our Congress Party (BCP).We did not own processes but I think we see any action being taken and should not defect from a widely the situation was just contained practised system. Who will agree as the status quo prevailed. It to that? What is it that we have is in the open that the ruling- ever done in this country that party is concerned because we did not benchmark on in it has been affected by floor countries that have been there crossing practice. At times when before? The one thing that we are someone is going through a bad well familiar with is the Bogosi time and they cry, people do not system and that is what we can understand but once it happens talk about. We should be wary to them, it will be evident as to of the things we have adopted why one needs to be comforted. from other countries when we The comfort that we can offer make amendments. When we to the parties is that they should talk of some of these issues we be patient and know that the should consider how it is going next elections will soon come to be reflected in other countries and Batswana shall take action. in regard to our democracy. Batswana should be taught to Botswana used to be one of the recall their representatives if best countries when it comes to there is anything that they are political ratings and currently not happy with. Some of these it is being overtaken by other initiatives are just a waste of countries because of occurrences funds. There are a lot of things like these that are caused by the on which the country is going immense political fear. Why to lose a lot of money just should we have fear? I take it because of politics. We have the that when a party breaks up it is a Delimitation Committee that is sign of political growth. going to look into the increase of constituencies after the population Mr Chairman, I want to point census. That means the number out that I support the practice of Councillors and specially of floor crossing because we elected ones will increase and have seen it happening before that will be a challenge. The without any action being taken. previous year we were against We have witnessed massive floor an amendment where the number crossing events in 1998 between of Specially Elected Members Botswana National Front (BNF) was going to be increased. We

123 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2011 - First Reading were still maintaining that it is is not just to raise your hand or a waste of resources and the fact to switch on the microphone but is that when it comes to politics rather it is applicable when you there is no concern for proper are rising to a point of order. “(b) funds usage. What is it that the to elucidate some matter raised people who choose to leave the by that Member in the cause of party have to contribute that his or her speech if the Member would hamper the country’s speaking is willing to give way development? When one is no and resume his or her seat and longer in a place where they are the Member wishing to interrupt not allowed to talk openly they is called by the Chairperson.” will be able to talk about the Please read that section. issues that can develop the minds of Batswana. Thank you. KGOSI MONNAATHEBE (THAMAGA REGION): MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you Thank you Mr Chairman. We Kgosi Machilidza. I noticed some acknowledge the Bill that has Honourable Members switching been brought before this House, on their microphones while the it is an important Bill. It is only other Member was still on the floor. right that if there is any issue of The Rules of Procedure clearly paramount importance, it should state that, ‘During a sitting while be brought to us as the advisory a Member is speaking, all other body. The intention would Members shall be silent and shall be for the Members to look not make unseemly interruption.’ into it and advise accordingly. When we look at what the Rules We have to avoid a situation of Procedure say regarding whereby it might appear like the interruption, Rule 29 reflects that Government does not care much “Subject to the provisions of Rule about the voters. The Bill shows 31 a Member shall not interrupt that the Government is concerned another Members except- (a) by about the floor crossing practice rising to a point of order, when because it affects the nation. If the Member speaking shall an individual has invested in resume his or her seat and the his or her campaign within their Member interrupting shall direct preferred party then it should not attention to the point which he bother us at all. I feel that both or she wishes to bring to notice the candidates and the voters’ and submit it to the Chairperson rights should be protected for decision; or.....”. The practice because we cannot say for sure

124 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2011 - First Reading that the candidate would have party campaigns then it would be been voted for by everyone who understandable since it would be a belongs to that party. People can move to prevent waste of national vote for an individual basing on resources. Some people invest a his or her ability. We should also lot in their campaigns such that acknowledge that if a person does some have lost their assets in the not feel happy in the party that process and for someone to be they stood for then they should asked to leave something they be allowed to leave. The Bible worked so hard for would not be even allows that when a man is fair. That is all I wanted to say Mr not happy in his marriage then he Chairman, I will not dwell on this can ask for divorce... issue. On that note I would like to indicate that I do not support this KGOSI BOIDITSWE: On a Bill at all. Thank you. point of clarification. Thank you Mr Chairman. Did Kgosi PROCEEDINGS Monnaathebe understand that the SUSPENDED FOR LUNCH main issue is that the Member of Parliament should leave their seat MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI behind if they defect to another GABORONE): Good afternoon party? If he has understood that Honourable Members. When we point, could he now clearly state adjourned for lunch we were still whether he agrees with that or considering the Bill that has been not? Thank you. brought before this House. We were still under the first reading KGOSI MONNAATHEBE: of this Bill and I will see by way Thank you for that advice Kgosi of raised hands if Members wish Boiditswe. I understood the Bill to comment. We should also bear very well. I do believe though in mind that these comments can that the individual would have still be brought up under the invested his or her resources in second reading when we are their campaigns. If at all that going through this Bill Clause by individual no longer feels happy, Clause. then they should be allowed to leave with the seat. I believe KGOSI RAMOKWENA that the person has the right to (MAUN REGION): Thank walk away with the seat and as I you Mr Chairman. I have few pointed out earlier that if at all the points on this Bill. I believe that Government was sponsoring the everything that is introduced is for a purpose. There is a

125 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2011 - First Reading

Setswana saying that goes, I compare our democracy to a “Phomphokwe yo o maithukutho perfect glass which does not mabe o iphatha ka diphuka e le have any cracks. As soon as a tsa gagwe.” That saying simply glass gets a crack, then it loses means that it is important to take value. If we are not careful, our time when doing something. We democracy which has been so should look into all avenues and highly praised might get tainted. establish what prompted such Members of Parliament to leave Recently we saw some their parties with their seats. Then individuals quitting the Botswana discuss and try to address those Democratic Party, stating their challenges before we amend unhappiness. That alone makes it the Constitution. This should appear as if this Bill is introduced be done with patience because because people are leaving the there are a lot of stakeholders ruling party. That is the truth; it involved. They include the is possible that a person can have voters, the candidate and the such thoughts. We should ensure concerned party. Therefore it is that there is no prejudice towards necessary to take time when it anybody when doing things. comes to such issues. We should Batswana respect freedom also understand that in this case of opinion such that even if we are talking about Members of they differ with one another in Parliament and not Councillors. freedom squares or any other MPs are responsible for taking place, they eventually manage to certain decisions regarding the amicably resolve matters. That is making of laws and it is possible one thing that sets us apart from that they can also become others. Mr Chairman, I would Ministers or even Vice President. like to conclude by citing an We should benchmark with other example. There is this story of a countries to see what we can son who asked his father to give adopt and what we cannot. Their him part of his father’s estate as economic status may be able to his share because he wanted to sustain that and such decisions leave home. His father did not may have been welcomed by all deny him that, he gave him the involved. These are some of the wealth. That is an example of things that we should consider democracy and this is what is and look into. We might be trying done even in our families. The to introduce something that is father considered that the boy likely to tarnish our Democracy. will have a right to his wealth at

126 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2011 - First Reading some point anyway; he did not be on matters which are relevant tell him that it belonged to him. to that subject. My opinion is that things should be left as they are. People should KGOSI RAMOKWENA: not be humiliated by being told Thank you Mr Chairman. The to leave their seats behind when boy was given a part of his they defect from a party. The father’s wealth and he left to people who would have given enjoy and waste it. When he that person the seat will have the eventually decided to go back chance to change all that if they home empty handed, the father are not happy with the individual. welcomed him back. That is why I do not support this motion Mr I am saying that the father did not Chairman and I advocate for humiliate his son by sending him the status quo to remain. People away. I am basically saying that should be allowed to be where it is not a problem for someone they want to be. to want to leave their party and whenever they wish to come KGOSI BOIDITSWE: I back, they should be free to do have been listening to Kgosi so. The person will be welcomed Ramokwena. I want him to tell back because their input would be us the conclusion of that story, needed in the party. That is why whether the boy came back with I am saying we should not be too that wealth or he wasted it all. concerned about taking the seat I need to know so that we can away from people because voters establish the relevance of the will ensure that they take away comparison between that boy that seat after five years during and an MP who defects from a the elections by not voting that party. That is all I need to know. individual. It is normal for an Thank you. MP to want to represent a certain constituency for some time and if MR CHAIRMAN: Before that people are not pleased with him clarification is made I would then they will not vote for him. like to read from the Rules of Mr Chairman, I believe that as Procedure that, ‘A Member shall long as there is nothing that has restrict his or her observations been disturbed in our Governance to the subject under discussion, then there is no need to take such and shall not introduce matters a drastic step. If at all this needs irrelevant to that subject.’ As we to be done, then it should have seek clarifications, they should been motivated by something

127 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2011 - First Reading serious but that has not been the the voters and that is their job. case. Thank you. If a Constituent has a complaint, they go to the MP’s office to MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you lodge that complaint. I take it Kgosi Ramokwena. I would that we are aware of that Mr like to remind the Honourable Chairman. The fact that we are Members that we still have to now here talking about this issue do the Second Reading of the is because of the constituents Bill. That is where we shall be who raised it. The same applies going through the Bill Clause to the motions and questions that by Clause and the Members can we bring to this House. We get have a chance to contribute on them from the community and that part as well. therefore this issue is from the people. The nation is concerned KGOSI MOETI II about this floor crossing practice (SPECIALLY ELECTED): because they are the voters and Thank you Mr Chairman and the Members of Parliament leave I appreciate the Honourable with their votes when they join Minister’s presence. I do other parties. understand that we are still going to get to the Second Reading of Another point that was raised this Bill and that we shall have is that it would be expensive to a chance to take it clause by implement the Bill and my take clause. However, I would like on that one is that just as the to make one or two comments other Members have indicated on this issue. I would like to before, democracy is very start off by thanking Kgosi expensive. There are a lot of Boiditswe and Kgosi Tshipe for things that we want as a nation their good debates. It is evident in the name of democracy. that those who advocate for Everyone is advocating for floor crossing to be allowed are justice and proper governance. concerned that the nation does We should acknowledge that it not have problems with this comes at a cost. Some people practice. Mr Chairman, perhaps are advocating for the increase we should remind ourselves of of ex-officio Members, the direct what an MP does and whom he election of the President and represents. All the issues that the electronic voting. All those come Members of Parliament bring to at a cost. We suggest all this the Parliament are brought by because we believe that it will

128 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2011 - First Reading improve our democracy. This they are talking about four main will be a way of improving our things; the candidate, the voters, country in the international arena the constituency and the party. as there will be justice, proper and perfect governance. We It would not be fair to let an MP cannot shy away from calling for walk away with the seat or to an improved democracy and we just appear with a seat; the new should be prepared to spend. It party has to ensure that he gets was also mentioned in the debate a seat in parliament. We should that some countries do not have ensure that whenever we discuss a problem with this system but these issues, we remain objective when I read through this paper and avoid getting emotional. For it was clear those countries a person to become a Member have had opportunities to look of Parliament, they are voted into this practice and to correct into Parliament by the voters. the anomalies. It appears they When an MP wants to defect to experienced some challenges another party during the term with this practice. I really did of elections, they create an not hear the Members who are abnormal situation that would against this Bill giving reasons have to be rectified. When an as to why they are against it. All MP passes away that situation I could make out was that the should be corrected by filling in status quo should be allowed to the space that he/she has left. The prevail and my question is what same thing should happen if a is so democratic about it? Mr specially elected member wishes Chairman, this country will not to join a particular party. The be improved by complaining party should be the one to send and making accusations. When a that person to Parliament. When situation is corrected, it will not a person who won elections as be for any party but for future an individual candidate joins a Government. The democracy that party, the situation should also is being built today is done for be corrected. The voters may the development of the country have voted for him because they and not a party. Mr Chairman, do not want to associate with this issue is clear and there any party, they should be given is nothing complicated about a chance to correct that anomaly. it. Let us correct the situation It is very important that under because in all fairness when normal circumstances, when one is talking about democracy, our emotions are not influenced

129 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2011 - First Reading by our thoughts or political power because of a defection game-beat, that we want to gain of Members of Parliament, it advantage over this party because would be an abnormal situation there is a loophole... that has to be normalised and we are ready to spend on that. KGOSI RAMOKWENA: I This is democracy; we must need Kgosi to clarify something maintain and make it grow. For for me. I need him to explain those who say that the status quo if the death of one MP can be should be allowed to prevail, the likened to the defection of 10 or opposition, stand to lose more. 20 Members of Parliament? He They have been complaining should also explain if at all there that they are not being funded. will not be any cost implication You will find that the other party if ever that was to happen. may be well off financially, and Can a situation of amending a they will be able to lure other Law that costs around P10,000 members using their money. It is be compared to holding re- possible that other people might elections of 10 to 20 Members of be enticed by money to move Parliament, which could easily to other parties. In politics it is cost around P2 million? Are allowed to entice people to join these things the same? Should we your party as long as it is not with continue to make amendments Government funds. Those of you that are going to cost us? Thank who have been complaining that you Mr Chairman. you are not being funded, or that opposition is not funded, you are KGOSI MOETI II: Thank you only cheating yourselves. We are Mr Chairman. I appreciate that now trying to flatten the tables so important point raised by Kgosi that there will be no... Ramokwena. If it so happens that there is an occurrence of a KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II: massive defection of Members Point of order. Mr Chairman, of Parliament from one party to with due respect I would like another, then there is a possibility Kgosi Moeti to retract his words. of regime change. That is why we He said something about, “you are saying, if ever it happens, then are not funded.” I do not believe fresh elections should be held so that there is anybody here who that it would be a Government said that they are not being voted in by the people. If we funded and we are not politicians get a Government that gets into if at all he is a politician. Nobody

130 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2011 - First Reading ever said that we are not being issue of floor crossing is very funded but rather that other complicated and it is one of political parties are not funded. the most topical issues that are Thank you Mr Chairman. currently doing rounds in the country. Mr Chairman we should KGOSI MOETI II: Thank you consider where we come from as Mr Chairman. This issue is very Batswana and take floor crossing serious such that now one may find in a holistic manner and not to themselves having said something single out issues as we have out of order. Please pardon me been doing. The reason why I am for that Honourable Members. saying this is because for a long In short I would like to say that time we have been calling for we are trying to prevent this type Political and Electoral reforms. of situations where people would Many experts have decried now be trying to entice others that Botswana’s democracy is into moving to their parties. outdated especially considering With regards to the point that it that Botswana was one of the is going to be very expensive to countries which had the most always hold re-elections, I would thriving democracy in Africa or like to say that through such a even in the world. Over the years measure, it is going to be rare it has become apparent that as for someone to decide to cross Batswana, we are experiencing a floors. Currently it is so easy for regression in regards to the vision the Members to defect as much as and where we want to be in future. they want because the Law makes Mr Chairman, it seems we are it easy for them to. If this Bill can becoming a country that makes be implemented, we are going to laws in order to regulate people’s have politics that make so much behaviour. When you refer to the sense and it is going to show us Constitution, there is the Bill of that what we have been allowing Rights which is in Section 13; this was a mistake. I thank you is the foundation of humanity. Mr Chairman and Honourable They are not detached from other Minister. components or legal instruments. I have a problem with the KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH enactment of some laws like the EAST DISTRICT): Thank Media Practitioners’ Act, Public you Mr Chairman. We have Service Act, and the regulation been listening to the debates by of the teaching profession. I the Honourable Members. This believe that before enacting such

131 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2011 - First Reading laws, there was need for a lot of people not just one person. I urge dialogue regarding these issues. him to talk about rights when it We now seem like a country that comes to floor crossing practice. thrives on making changes to Thank you. the Constitution compulsively, that might end up leading us KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II: nowhere Mr Chairman. I believe Point of Order. Mr Chairman that there are circumstances that could you please protect those led us to be where we are today. who are debating because I do Most parties in this country not believe that there is anybody complain about lack of inner here who has been designated to party democracy. Some members tell people what to say and what of the nation have shown that as not to say in their deliberations. a nation we have compromised Everyone is allowed to speak for our principles such that we have whoever they wish to speak for. taken some individuals and given MR CHAIRMAN: I request them leadership positions but that these points of order that you when they are supposed to speak have been requesting should not for the nation, they cannot even be just for purposes of getting do that because their political people to debate in a way that parties do not allow them to say you want them to. It should be anything which may differ with used to request the Chairman the party’s stand. to correct a certain anomaly in HONOURABLE MEMBER: one’s debate or to ask someone Point of order. to retract what they have said.

MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi KGOSI MASUNGA: Thank Boiditswe I cannot allow you to you Mr Chairman. I was still call out a point of order just like saying we have become a nation that without even switching on that compromises our principles your microphone. Please switch such that we now have problems on your microphone. of leadership as a whole. We have now reached a stage where KGOSI BOIDITSWE: On a we no longer see the worth in point of order. I wish to request our leaders. You will notice that Kgosi Masunga to revert to the the trend in Africa is that there topic at hand; floor crossing. I is an imbalance between the know that he is particularly fond incumbent party and those in the of talking about the rights of the opposition and that is because

132 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2011 - First Reading the sharing of resources is not the situation is not working for the same. In Botswana there is no them that now a law has to be political funding and therefore drafted? When you consider what that immediately eliminates Kgosi Kahiko was saying, the equity amongst parties. In light American Constitution has been of these circumstances, floor amended around 27 times in 200 crossing becomes a little window years. I believe that dialogue has of opportunity for those who feel always been the most important that the inner party democracy thing to us as Batswana and has died or is dying. I believe therefore we should go back that before such people decide and consult so that we can hear to defect to another party they what they have to say regarding consult with their constituents. I this particular law. We are just do not want to believe that there rushing to change the law in this is anybody who can decide to House without consulting other do that without first consulting people. with the relevant people if they want to return to the office in Mr Chairman, I do not see why the next term. Batswana are the practice of floor crossing free to hold such discussions. should cause such a commotion There was one incident in now whilst Batswana have Shoshong where the residents long been calling for laws such came together at a Kgotla to as declaration of assets by enquire where their MP is. They Members of Parliament but it were exercising their democratic has never happened. Democracy right. I have not witnessed any is a process but we should not instance where Batswana are change things for our own against floor crossing. I want to benefit. We are supposed to see the statistics which indicate nurture the democracy of this that Batswana are against this country and we can always see practice. Some parties have alternative ways of improving long asked for this amendment our processes. The fact is that any however, the status quo was left man who is afraid of change will to remain until now when the always remain the same. Change floor crossing practice affected a is a chance for the parties or the certain party. The major question individuals to grow. There is also now would be are we making laws an issue of the Specially Elected based on selective exposure? Is it Members of Parliament. We because the powers that be feel cannot ascertain the criterion that

133 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2011 - First Reading is being used when these people independent at all. Regarding are chosen. However, we have the political reforms; we should been informed that they possess ensure that the political parties special skills, but has that been are assisted with funds. All these the case? I ask this because I feel companies that are making these that there are some people who contributions to political parties should have long been chosen should do so in a transparent under this dispensation. Mr manner. It should be gazetted for Chairman, I think that the time everybody to see. Currently the has come for a special body to private sector is forced to give be created that will be tasked the Government of the day funds with identifying certain gaps since it is the one that is in power. within the economy and then This occurs especially in an making recommendations to the economy like ours which is not President for the appropriate in the hands of the private sector. people. This is unlike what is Mr Chairman, let us remind currently happening whereby ourselves of the future that we this system is used to neutralise want to have and we should not the power dynamics within the be afraid to dialogue; let us not Councils as the Councillors have be afraid to fail today. Failure is demonstrated. a stepping stone to success. Such laws that we want to enact would Mr Chairman, with those words affiliate us to other countries I believe that this Bill should which I shall not name whose be set aside in order for certain people have lost their souls due processes like the Electoral to the amount of control that is process and the Political reforms there in their laws. We need to to be reviewed. The Independent be careful and allow Batswana to Electoral Commission (IEC) dialogue on these issues. should stand alone and not fall under the Office of the President. I would like to conclude by In other countries after the saying that it is not that we are ballots have been counted, they becoming too emotional about are handed to the Constitutional this issue. I take it that when the Court. It is the one that will voters chose a certain candidate announce the election results they would have given him a however, in our case the IEC is chance to represent them. That just a department that falls under person has the autonomy to the Government and it is not decide whether things are going

134 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2011 - Second Reading accordingly wherever he is. If at 1. Amendment of Section 68 of all things are not going well then the Constitution that person has the right to move. Mr Chairman, we are going Section 68 of Constitution is to come to a stage where, in amended by substituting for instances people are dissatisfied subsection (1), the following with something, they will keep new subsection-...... ” quiet. That is what is destroying KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II: this continent. I believe that the Thank you Mr Chairman. Please new leadership of this continent allow me to state that on clause must speak out. Thank you Mr 2, sub clause 1 there are certain Chairman. clauses that I do not agree with, MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you that is clauses (d) and (e). I do Kgosi Masunga. I do not see any not have any problem with (a), raised hands and therefore I take (b) and (c). Mr Chairman, I have it that we have completed the first a problem with the clauses I have stage that is on the general merits mentioned because I believe that and principles of this Bill that it is important to differentiate has been presented to this House between political parties and by Honourable Masisi. We shall Government. We always lament now venture into the second stage that our country’s economy has of the Bill unless the Minister gone down, therefore the major wishes to say something. question is, where are we going to get the money to fund all the CONSTITUTION re-elections that would be held (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2011 whenever an MP defects from one (No.15 of 2011) party to the other? Mr Chairman, if this law was in use now, how Second Reading many re-elections would have MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI been held in light of the spate of PUSO GABORONE): The Bill defections that occurred in the starts with a:- last few months? An example that I can give is that of the Members 1. “Short title of Parliament who left their party for another and within a few This act may be cited as the months they went back to their Constitution (Amendment) Act, original political party. In that 2011. case how many elections would

135 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2011 - Second Reading we have held? This would have Public servants went on a strike simply meant that re-elections and as soon as the strike was over would have been held repeatedly there was an amendment of the and that would not be practical. law leading to some professions to be classified as essential services. Mr Chairman, my other question Even the poor teachers were is why are we seated here classified as essential services just discussing this Bill? What has because most of them participated motivated the drafting of this in the strike. Bill? Political parties have always broken up and nothing like this There is a concern that if a has ever been done, why should Member of Parliament defects there be an amendment of the but the area councillors do not, Constitution now? The situation then it means they will not have that has occurred recently of mass cordial working relationships. I defection should be accepted by do not agree with that. There are that particular party just as the a lot of areas where the MP and other parties accepted their fate the Councillors do not belong before. As for the issue that the to the same party and they work concerned MP should go and very well together. Mr Chairman, consult with the constituents, I have concerns that by coercing we should note that MPs do not the Members of Parliament to stay know all the people who voted in a party even though they are no them. Some of us who are not longer interested in it is wrong. political party members vote We might promote a situation for candidates looking at their where Members of Parliament are abilities to perform. We do now afraid to voice their honest not consider the party that the opinions. They are going to be candidate represents and whether afraid to talk for fear of being he wants to defect from that expelled from the party. That party. Mr Chairman, Members of is going to lead them to support Parliament should be free to join everything that the party says even whichever political party they so though they might not necessarily desire. I have been wondering agree with those ideas. Those who about the way we do things in this do not wish to lose their Members country on numerous occasions. should work well with them. Mr Whenever something happens Chairman, I am still wondering that is out of the ordinary, we rush why the Members of Parliament to devise a law to address it. The should lose their seats when

136 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2011 - Second Reading they choose to join other parties. there was a computerised system I have been looking at Section which showed all the members 61 of the Constitution, it states of political parties then this the qualifications for election issue would be simple. It would to the National Assembly. I do be easy for me to agree with it. not see anywhere where it says What we currently have in this that for someone to qualify for country is that party membership election to the National Assembly is a private matter and therefore they should belong to a certain we cannot boldly say that an MP party. Why should we want to is voted for by the members of involve political parties in the his own party only. Some people Constitution? I just want to stress might hold the membership of that our Members of Parliament four parties and participate in the should be allowed to have the primary elections for all these freedom to affiliate with any parties. Therefore, as long as party that they choose. Specially the system is not computerised, elected MPs should also be free to it rejects this clause completely. affiliate with any political body. On the issue of being “nominated as an independent candidate and With those few words Mr elected to the National Assembly,” Chairman, I do not agree with I do not understand the use of clause 2, sub clauses (d) and (e). the term ‘nomination’ in this In cases whereby it is a party that context since the person would is expelling an MP why should we be standing as an independent then have to amend a law in order candidate. I therefore do not see to justify that. Conflicts between why there should be a problem an individual and a party should if that individual decides to now not be the nation’s concern. If join a particular party I therefore at all the voters no longer wish rule it out. to be represented by a particular MP, then they will have a chance Touching on the part that to choose another person in the Kgosi Lotlamoreng spoke next elections. Thank you. about regarding Section 61 of the Constitution, I would like KGOSI KAHIKO III (GHANZI to say that it would be better if WEST REGION): Thank you there was a clause which states Mr Chairman. I will go straight one of the qualifications being to clauses 2 (d) and (e). All the that one should not defect to other clauses are fine. If at all another party. That would

137 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2011 - Second Reading have been helpful since the Assembly to express interest in amendment would be supported joining a party. I want to know by that clause. For Specially if that particular Member’s seat Elected Members, I would like will be declared vacant only to say that this one lies with the when they have publicly declared person responsible for choosing that they are joining a party. that particular individual since they would have based their MR CHAIRMAN: Perhaps nominations on certain reasons. to aid a smooth transition as We are not sure if they are we continue, I should give the chosen considering their interest Honourable Minister a chance in politics or whether they would at this stage to explain what be members of a certain party. I Kgosi has been enquiring about still do not agree with it though, regarding Sub Clause 1 (e) (ii). as I feel that it is not right to ask MINISTER FOR one to denounce their seat just P R E S I D E N T I A L because they wish to join another AFFAIRS AND PUBLIC party. The real question is whom ADMINISTRATION (MR M. would this person have failed in E. MASISI): Thank you Mr this instance because those who Chairman. Should I focus on would have been voted for by the Kgosi Kgari’s question or can I voters are believed to have failed clarify other issues as well? those voters? MR CHAIRMAN: You can KGOSI KGARI III answer Kgosi Kgari’s question (BAKWENA): Thank you Mr but if there is anything else Chairman. I wanted to ask the that you feel might be helpful Minister to clarify Sub-Clause regarding this Bill then you can 1 (e) (ii) where it says “if an cover it as well. Thank you. individual was not a member of a political party when he was MR M. E. MASISI: Thank you specially elected and becomes Mr Chairman. The intention a member of a political party” of this Bill is to strengthen Does it mean when a Specially democracy because the principle Elected Member of Parliament is that the majority shall decide on chooses to join a certain party and the decisions to be implemented. is given a membership card or it If indeed we adhere to that it then means when that Member goes means that before we implement to the Speaker of the National any Law, we should have

138 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2011 - Second Reading consulted different stakeholders. to consider that the person agrees I do not dispute the fact that it with the ideals of the party in can happen that some people in power at that particular time. a gathering can oppose whatever When every party contests, is being discussed but, this issue it usually aspires to win the is similar to the church setup, elections. What we want with my apologies to the priests. One this Bill is to create a clear chooses to be a member of a programme of what happens certain church because they can in the Government irrespective identify with the procedures of of who is ruling at that time. It that church. The law does not is for those who are part of the coerce anyone to be where they Government to be coerced by the do not want to be. Secondly, law to accept those conditions I would like to address the and if they do not accept them concerns of what prompted this then it is better for them not to be Bill and say that this Bill was part of that. drafted solely for Batswana and not for any political body. To address Kgosi Kgari’s Mr Chairman, we are talking question, I would like to say that if about Governance here and not this Bill can be enacted, those who the parties that wish to rule this are chosen as Specially Elected country. It is important to govern Members would be required to meticulously so as to avoid any declare the party they belong to unnecessary complications. at the initial stage. For example, The Government is sometimes if someone can declare that they faced with a position of making do not belong to any party then certain decisions. The only way it has to remain that way for an through which the decisions are entire term and if it ever occurs made within the Government is that they join a particular party, determined by the position of the then that would warrant that they majority, be it with regards to the step down for another election to law or the administration. On the be held. Lastly, I would like to issue concerning the Specially emphasise that the qualifications Elected Members of Parliament, for one to be elected to the I would like to say that those National Assembly are clearly individuals are chosen looking stated in the law. Whether one at their capabilities. Since the is a Member of Parliament, individual will be part of the Councillor or an independent legislature, it is also imperative candidate, the procedure is clearly

139 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2011 - Second Reading stated in the Electoral Act. That is very simple Mr Chairman. The is all that I wanted to clarify. Member of Parliament should The main intention of this Bill leave the seat behind when he is to bring tranquility within the joins another party. They will Government especially when it find other opportunities where comes to democracy. Thank you. they are going. Mr Chairman, I conclude by saying that whether KGOSI BOIDITSWE the majority agrees with me or (SEROWE REGION): Thank not, I do not agree with the floor you Mr Chairman. We have crossing practice where one takes deliberated on this issue at length. the seat along. Even during the In fact I do not think there has time that Botswana National ever been an issue that we dwelt Front (BNF) broke apart resulting on the way we have with this one. in the formation of the Botswana However, the fact of the matter Congress Party (BCP); I did not is that it has to be discussed. One support what was happening Member explained earlier on that because those Members of the community in one village Parliament left with the BNF once came together at a Kgotla seats. One Member earlier on meeting to enquire about the mentioned that this practice whereabouts of their Member of causes disarray. Mr Chairman Parliament. This shows that the we are not supposed to remain in person had not consulted with unclear..... his constituents before leaving. Usually the Member of Parliament KGOSI GAREBAKWENA: who has defected informs the On a point of clarification. Mr community after leaving his own Chairman, I wanted to ask Kgosi if party and joined another. The at all Specially Elected Members other argument was that there have constituencies where there is no proof that the Member of would be constituents to consult Parliament would have been if ever the individual decided to voted by the party members only. join a party. I would like to say that the people who are supposed to be consulted KGOSI BOIDITSWE: I did not are the Constituents. During the hear him well Mr Chairman, he elections there is no one who is was not using the microphone. requested to disclose the party KGOSI GAREBAKWENA: I they voted for as it is believed that was asking if Specially Elected it is that person’s secret. The issue Members have constituencies

140 Thursday 26th January, 2012 Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2011 - Second Reading such that if they wish to defect KGOSI MACHILIDZA: On from their Specially Elected status, a point of clarification. I want they would have constituents to Kgosi Tshipe to explain whether consult. if a party expels a certain member, then that member KGOSI BOIDITSWE: should also get expelled at the Mr Chairman, Specially National Assembly. Elected Members do not have constituencies but they reside KGOSI TSHIPE: I believe within constituencies. Thank you. that the situation that we are currently debating is focused KGOSI TSHIPE on the Members of Parliament (MAHALAPYE REGION): and one cannot be a Member of Thank you Mr Chairman. I Parliament without first being a wanted to focus on clause 2, Sub member of a party. I hope that I clause 1 d (i) which states that clarified it for you. Mr Chairman, an Elected Member may lose the I mentioned that we overlooked seat if they join another party or a certain point as we were if he is expelled. debating. We tend to forget that the election procedure is catered Mr Chairman, there are certain for within the Law. The Electoral points that we have overlooked Act explains everything entailing earlier on as we were debating this the procedure for elections. issue, every party has got its own Therefore some of these issues Constitution which communicates are catered for within the the rules to every member. If one Constitution. agrees with that Constitution, then they can join the party. Within KGOSI MASUNGA: Point the parties there are also different of clarification. Mr Chairman, committees that can be consulted we were not saying that the by an individual when they feel Electoral Act is not part of the that they no longer want to be part Constitution. We were talking of that party. If at all the party feels about the autonomy of the that one is not doing certain things electoral body that is responsible the way that they are supposed to for the elections. We were simply be doing them, then it should be saying that their autonomy the one that can expel you. That and credibility should not be is the essence of this clause and questionable. I believe that even those are the reasons why I agree the election observers who with it.

141 Friday 27th January, 2012 Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumed Debate) have come here time and again The House accordingly adjourned to observe the elections have at 4.00 p.m. until Friday 27th indicated that the Independent January, 2012 at 9.30 a.m. Electoral Commission should th be an autonomous body which Friday 27 January, 2012 is not under the Office of the THE HOUSE met at 9.30 a.m. President. We are not disputing the fact that it is catered for in (THE CHAIRMAN in the the Constitution but we are just Chair) calling for its autonomy. Thank P R A Y E R S you, Mr Chairman. * * * * MINISTER FOR P R E S I D E N T I A L CHAIRMAN’S REMARKS AFFAIRS AND PUBLIC MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI ADMINISTRATION (HON PUSO GABORONE): Good M. E MASISI): I wish to morning Honourable Members. clarify something Mr Chairman. We will proceed with today’s The Independent Electoral business. Commission (IEC) is not under the Office of the President. The BILL procedure is that when the IEC requests funding, they do that CONSTITUTION through my Ministry. I am the (AMENDMENT) BILL, one who presents their budget in 2011(NO 15 OF 2011) Parliament but we do not control Second Reading that department in anyway. Thank you. (Resumed Debate)

MR CHAIRMAN: We shall stop MR CHAIRMAN: When we here in light of that explanation. adjourned yesterday, we were on I believe that Kgosi Tshipe was the Second Reading of the Bill. not done debating and therefore Members were still debating it, you shall continue from where but unfortunately, the Minister you left off tomorrow. We shall who has brought this Bill before stop here for today and meet the House is not here. In the tomorrow morning at 9.30a.m. Second Reading, we need him the most because he has to ADJOURNMENT clarify issues that are not clear to the Honourable Members of this 142 Friday 27th January, 2012 Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumed Debate)

House. It is well-known that this II. I will ask that we adjourn House starts at 0930hrs. Where the House briefly for about 10 is the Honourable Minister at minutes. We will convene at this point? He is nowhere in the 1045hrs. House. PROCEEDINGS KGOSI LOTLAMORENG SUSPENDED FOR TEN II: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I MINUTES want to appeal to you, on behalf of the Honourable Members MR CHAIRMAN: I greet you of this House to meet with the again, Honourable Members. Minister in question. I have Let us continue with the business a reason to believe that our that was supposed to have started working relationship with the 10 minutes ago. Honourable Minister for Presidential Affairs Minister, I wish to express that is not a satisfying one. This we are not happy at all. The is not the first time. The same Rules of this House are very thing happened the first time he clear. You are aware of them and had to present this Bill. We had you know the times the House to wait for him. It is happening starts and finishes its business. again, we are here waiting for Our wish and expectations are him. There is no Minister who that the Rules and Procedures of does not know our starting time. this House should be respected This is why we always say this and honoured by all the leaders, House is not taken seriously. It Ministers included. We are seems like they are undermining here to debate the Bill you have us. I want to appeal to you as brought to this House. My belief you are in charge of this House is that we hold this Bill in high to meet with the Minister. If the esteem. The intention is that Honourable Members agree with when we take a resolution on this this, let the Chairperson and the Bill, it would have been given Deputy inform the Minister of the recognition it deserves. But, our discontentment, maybe he if then we are going to carry will take heed of our concerns. ourselves the way we are doing, Thank you, Mr Chairman. it will not be appropriate. On behalf of this House, I want to MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you. show that we are not happy with I think your supplication has the way things are being done at been noted Kgosi Lotlamoreng this moment. Even yesterday, the

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Minister came late. We had to concerned about the plight of this wait for him. This morning again, House; we are also disturbed. we waited. Time is of value in We plead with the Honourable this House. We want this House Minister to work pleasantly with to run effectively and efficiently. us since we are prepared to have I do not want to disguise the a good working relationship with displeasure of this House. him. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

KGOSI LOTLAMORENG MR CHAIRMAN: Can we now II: Thank you, Mr Chairman. proceed with the business. When Let me also say my part in we adjourned yesterday, we were reiteration of what you have on the Second Reading of the just said. As Members of this Bill. There were some Members House, we are also not pleased. who had already debated. Are We want to take this opportunity there any more Members who to show our displeasure. We wish to debate? Kgosi Tshipe do not appreciate the way the was on the floor when we stopped Minister has been conducting his yesterday. business in this House. We are always complaining about the KGOSI TSHIPE: Thank you, way those in power perceive us. Mr Chairman. I said all I wanted It seems they do not recognize to say yesterday. All that is left is us. It is clear and evident now, to thank you, Mr Chairman. what we say is true. I do not want KGOSI MACHILIDZA to believe that when we have (BOTETI REGION): Thank convened here to perform this you, Mr Chairman. I want to important task, something of this say one or two words. We have nature should happen. You are debated this Bill at great length. I the one who came to us looking can see that Honourable Members for our contributions, therefore want to correct things. They want you should not be treating us the things to be perfect. Let me point way you are doing. This is not the out Mr Chairman that, we have first time. Apart from yesterday, been furnished with a research even in the past Meetings, this paper that is centered on the topic happened. The House had to under discussion. The paper shows adjourn because of the very how this exercise was stopped same Minister in question. I by other countries. The person just wanted to say that it is not who wrote this paper wanted only you, Mr Chairman, who is to show that floor crossing was

144 Friday 27th January, 2012 Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumed Debate) still practised even in most of the multiple parties to be formed, Commonwealth countries. Now, why then do we want to stop floor are you telling us that we should crossing? No one has a problem, stop floor crossing? There is no even with splinter parties. need for us to do that. There are Splinter parties are allowed in a lot of things this country should our country. There can be as be focusing on, which should be many parties as possible, nothing changed but no one is paying prohibits that. attention to our requests. We had thought that special election KGOSI KGARI II: Mr into Parliament was essential in Chairman, my request is that order to have some expertise in Kgosi should come back to the Parliament. This has become a clauses because we are on the terrible decision because now it is Second Reading. He should show political … us what he thinks should be done because, to me it seems like he is HONOURABLE MEMBER: debating the general merits and …inaudible…. principles. This is not supposed to be the case at this stage. We MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi are on the Second Reading of Machilidza. the Bill. Otherwise, we will take longer time if he continues KGOSI MACHILIDZA: with his line of debate. We have Mr Chairman, I beg for your passed the debating stage. protection. I am merely saying my opinion. I want to say what I MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi feel right now. Machilidza, come back to the clauses of the Constitution MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi (Amendment) Bill. Machilidza, continue with your debate. KGOSI MACHILIDZA: Thank you, Mr Chairman and Kgosi KGOSI MACHILIDZA: Mr Kgari III. It is not a problem, you Chairman, I am of the view that were advising me to follow the we should not take such a long procedure. Clause 3 talks about time debating this issue. I stand a specially elected member or to say, I do not support that floor an independent candidate upon crossing should be stopped. Let leaving his specially elected people be allowed to cross the or independent status to join a floor. If the Constitution allows particular party. In my view, this

145 Friday 27th January, 2012 Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumed Debate)

Bill is not good, people should MINISTER FOR have the freedom to choose where P R E S I D E N T I A L they want to go. This then means AFFAIRS AND PUBLIC that the freedom of association ADMINISTRATION (HON M. will not exist anymore. Through E. K. MASISI): Thank you, Mr this amendment, we will have Chairman. Honourable Members, a situation where people are no let me start by humbling myself longer free. It is laws like these and ask for forgiveness. I want that threaten our democracy, our to promise this House that there freedom of expression as well is no intention whatsoever; as freedom of association. Mr from me or my colleagues, of Chairman, with the reasons I disrespecting this House and its pointed out, I do not support this leadership. This morning, there clause that wants to stop floor was a problem that I wanted to crossing. discuss in confidence with the Chairman. My office’s liaison MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi with this House’s office will have Kahiko, did you not make your to improve. Sometimes we would contribution yesterday? be overwhelmed with meetings. I beg this House’s pardon, it was KGOSI KAHIKO III: No, not intentional. thank you Mr Chairman. I wanted some clarity from the Mr Chairman, let me get on with Minister on clause 2. Those the response to Kgosi Kahiko’s people who will leave their seats question. According to this when they cross the floor, what Bill, if there is any Member of about their benefits? Will they Parliament who might lose his get their benefits or not because position as a Parliamentarian we know that after five (5) when this Bill comes into effect, years, Members of Parliament if he has not finished the term, the are given benefits. What then same principle that applies when will happen to those who have a Member resigns will be applied. been chased out of the party, His benefits will be calculated to or may have crossed the floor? the last day in the office. He will That is all I wanted clarity on. be given his benefits accordingly. I think that we have exhausted Thank you. this clause, let us conclude so that we do the resolution. Thank MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you, you. Honourable Minister. Your

146 Friday 27th January, 2012 Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumed Debate) apology has been accepted and are there for the aspirations of we hope it will not happen again. the people, they take people’s views, opinions and suggestions KGOSI MOETI II to develop the area. If he moves (SPECIALLY ELECTED): to another party, it disrupts the Thank you, Mr Chairman. We workflow because such person have debated this issue for a long would have joined a party that time and I think it is clear what the did not vote for him. Sometimes outcome will be. I want to show such party may not have fielded why we are saying there should a candidate in that region and be changes. I am looking at 2(d) addressing meetings in that area (i) and (e) on Specially Elected may become difficult for the Members. Let me start with candidate. Who will that person the one on an elected member be addressing because they do and explain why there should not know the member nor have be changes especially those they voted for his new party? pertaining to elections in this Working with Councilors in that country. Firstly, by changing this area also becomes a challenge. clause, this will curb what I can call party infiltration. We want KGOSI LOTLAMORENG things to be done appropriately II: Mr Chairman, I want to ask without any complexity. We Kgosi Moeti if he is saying that a do not want a situation where member who has crossed the floor a candidate contests elections will have a challenge addressing under a certain political party people because they did not vote because the chances of winning for that Member? When Kgotla would be greater as opposed to meetings are held; is that done the other parties. Upon winning with the people who voted for the under such ticket, then the MP only? Is it not supposed to be candidate moves to his preferred a meeting for everyone in that party. This will also assist in the area? I thought Kgotla meetings workflow because crossing over are for everybody. A Member of with a seat disrupts the workflow. Parliament for that region from The MP has Councilors in that any party can address a meeting area who assisted in campaigning in his area regardless of his party for him, what then happens when affiliation. such member crosses the floor with the seat? We are all aware KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Thank that Members of Parliament you, Mr Chairman.

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MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi Member of Parliament of an area Boiditswe, I did not give you the or region. In most cases, when a floor. Member of Parliament crosses the floor with his seat, there is always KGOSI BOIDITSWE: I have friction between such Member a protest. If you do not want and his electorates. It becomes anyone who is against the debate difficult for such member to to speak, let us know so that address meetings. I think I we boycott the debate because answered Kgosi Lotlamoreng. I wanted clarity and you denied me the opportunity, but then you KGOSI LEMPADI: Thank you, give another Member who was Mr Chairman. Earlier on when seeking clarity the floor. Kgosi Kahiko wanted to speak, you asked him if he did not make MR CHAIRMAN: According to his contribution yesterday, but Clause 35, it states, “the Chairman Kgosi Moeti debated yesterday shall order a Member whose and you gave him the floor conduct is grossly disorderly to today. I do not understand why withdraw immediately from the Mr Chairman? Chamber for the remainder of that day’s sitting and may direct MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi an usher to ensure the compliance Lempadi, let me explain the with this order.” Kgosi Boiditswe, procedure to you. Kgosi Kahiko I order you to leave the Chamber. debated yesterday; it was under the First Reading of the Bill. KGOSI MOETI II: Thank He was debating just like all you, Kgosi Lotlamoreng. if one Members who were debating the is a Member of Parliament, that general merits and principles. person represents an area. People He debated again on the Second from the same party may have Reading of the Bill on clause elected that person, but the bottom by clause. That is why I said line is that such person is there for he cannot be given the floor to the aspirations of all the people debate. He has exercised his in that area, even those who may rights and has used all the chances belong to other parties. However, of debating on all the stages up to we cannot run away from the fact where we are now. that majority of those people who will be attending such meetings KGOSI MOETI II: Let me will be in favour of the Member of clarify to this House that I have Parliament. I do concur that one is not be given the opportunity to

148 Friday 27th January, 2012 Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumed Debate) debate the Second Reading of the manifesto, maybe 30% to the Bill. 40%. There is no manifesto for individuals, in most cases it is MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi Moeti, the party that is being voted for continue with your debate. and not a person. Even those Members who maintain that KGOSI MOETI II: Thank you, floor crossing should be left as Mr Chairman. Let me point out it is are aware of these tricks. that those in authority can see They are aware that people will that there is a problem and they lose their seats because usually are trying to rectify it. Common it is the party that is being voted sense will show that if we say for and not an individual. That someone should cross the floor, alone Mr Chairman, hinders he should vacate the seat so that Members to support this Bill, new elections could be held. they foresee where this will Chances would be very high for lead to, chances will be slim for such Member to lose. That is someone who has left the party why some Members do not want that won with big margins to to support fresh elections upon a win under a different party. We Member crossing the floor. This are approaching this issue with a issue is not complicated at all, it compromised conscience but we is straight forward. Let this be should not do that. We should corrected. It is obvious why some correct where it is inappropriate Members are reluctant to support for the good of the country. We this clause. It is because chances should be truthful because truth of such a Member losing elections is the way forward. after crossing over are very high. The Members are aware that in Let me conclude commenting most cases they move to parties on the one for Specially Elected. which have a small number of There is a procedure which is electorates, sometimes the party followed when one is nominated may not have had representation a Specially Elected Member. in that area. As it happens, when When such Member is to join a person campaigns, he does another party, he should vacate so with a manifesto, which has the seat. We replace that person been endorsed by a party. The and the same procedure as before electorate might have loved the will apply for re election. With manifesto and not the person. those words Mr Chairman, I The candidate comes after want to say, I support those

149 Friday 27th January, 2012 Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumed Debate)

Members who are against the of Parliament through floor floor crossing because they give crossing are not concerned that compelling reasons. Let me take they will also lose in one way or this opportunity to ask those the other. Members who are against this clause that… KGOSI MOETI: Your question is good, Kgosi Machilidza. The KGOSI SEEMEKO: On a point whole idea is justice, democracy of clarification, Mr Chairman. and fair play. That is why I am Thank you so much. Is Kgosi saying; let us build the nation. saying that those Members who Win or no win is neither here nor support this Bill are the ones there. The whole idea is doing with convincing reasons and things fairly: all stakeholders those Members who are against for this seat should be satisfied. the Bill their reasons are vague? The area will lack development Is this what Kgosi is saying? if this situation prevails. Even the party that has accepted the KGOSI MOETI II: That is my Member who crossed will not thinking Mr Chairman. It is my trust such member and will be observation. They are giving cautious around him. They may reasons that do not advance or even deny any association with help this debate. It is my belief, such Member if he says anything if I am allowed to weigh the damaging. What is apparent is reasons. When we give reasons, that Members who advocate for they should be profound. When this Bill, are not on win or lose I say a Member’s reasons are situation, they want fairness, shallow, it is not that I am justice and proper democracy. disrespecting them. I am merely Those are the reasons. In fact, saying the reasons do not carry Kgosi did a good thing by weight. asking that question because, it is the one that will confirm KGOSI MACHILIDZA: that it is all about living with a Through you Mr Chairman. We clear conscience without forcing do understand what Kgosi Moeti matters for political mileage. is saying. Kgosi is saying those The reason some do not want who cross the floor to other this corrected is for political parties are likely to lose if they mileage but this in future will contest under their new party. work against us because politics I want to ask Kgosi whether are dynamic. Anything can those who lose their Members

150 Friday 27th January, 2012 Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumed Debate) happen in future. Let us not take do is to amend the Constitution these things personally, let us put of Botswana. The second part things right for the future of our of the Bill shows where exactly country. Honourable Members, we want the amendment to be in it can so happen that an argument the Constitution. I will cite and like this on… summarize the contributions by Members. In Clause 2, it is MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi Moeti, explained that a seat for a Member I urge you to focus on the clause of Parliament will remain vacant. and avoid repetition. It states that all the way to section (c). In (d) it states that an Elected KGOSI MOETI: Mr Chairman Member if nominated by a party that is the end of my debate. as a candidate and elected into Thank you Mr Chairman and I Parliament resigns or is expelled thank the Minister as well. his seat shall remain vacant. MR CHAIRMAN: I do not see This is where I want to explain any raised hands and I believe a few things Mr Chairman. I that Members have contributed want to stress and reiterate that on the Second Reading of this when we talk of Members of Bill. With that I will give the Parliament, we are talking about Honourable Minister the floor the Government. Parliament in case there is any comment is the entity that makes the that he wishes to express, before Government. It has powers we move on to the next stage- mandated to it by the law. I want resolution. The floor is yours to show a distinction between Honourable Minister. this and the amendment of the MINISTER FOR Councils discussed a while ago. P R E S I D E N T I A L The law allows for the formation AFFAIRS AND PUBLIC of political parties, these parties ADMINSITRATION (HON will have their own constitutions M. E. MASISI): Thank you detailing how they will run their Mr Chairman, Honourable parties. The Ministry of Labour Members. I will briefly touch and Home Affairs registers the on a few aspects in response political parties. They have to the Honourable Members’ to ensure that the procedure comments and in summarizing and the way these parties are what exactly the Bill says. The run does not conflict with the first thing this Bill intends to law and there is accord in their

151 Friday 27th January, 2012 Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumed Debate) running. Therefore, there should the independent candidates were not be fear that people will be large in numbers, and they register subjected to oppression of any at the High Court the person they sort in a party. I am not saying wish to be their President, when that can never happen. If that their numbers in Parliament are situation may arise, it will be in the majority, their presidential upon individual parties to fix that candidate becomes the President. at party levels, so that when they They can then form their own join the Parliament, they should Government; the Government of not bring any complications independent candidates. This is from their parties. The focus allowed by our Constitution. I am should solely be on building the saying this, Honourable Members Government. If someone resigns because there is nowhere in the or is expelled from a party and Constitution where people are joins another, he should do so threatened. No one is prevented on his own. If a person resigns from saying out his views. If from a party, he has broken the then someone does not want to party’s agreement. Therefore be governed by rules of any party he will not be representing that and wants to be on his own, there party in any way. These are the is an option of being independent things that should be corrected as this clause says. Mr Chairman. KGOSI SEBOKO (BALETE): Sub-clause (d) ii Mr Chairman Honourable Minister, these is on an independent candidate. constitutions of political parties, If he becomes a member of a will they ever change in the political party, his seat shall long run? The constitutions are become vacant. By so doing for individual parties and not Mr Chairman, we are trying for the running of Government. to promote a democratic Disagreements may arise Government which puts the within individual parties, a aspirations of the people first, party member may feel that the rather than personal interest. prevailing situation in his party If one renounces his seat to the is too much for him to handle. electorate, other than joining Such person may opt out of the a political party with it, such party or get expelled. Amending person will have broken the party constitution, will it not trust the electorate had on him. bring about these situations? I According to the Constitution, if hope the Honourable Minister

152 Friday 27th January, 2012 Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumed Debate) understands my question. Thank constitutions of parties are you, Mr Chairman. governed by the Constitution of the country. There is no law HONOURABLE MASISI: that prohibits changes from I do understand Kgosi. Party taking place. When you vote, constitutions can be amended Honourable Members, you or changed by the parties have to ask yourselves why themselves. This changing of the vote, is it to advise the constitutions should be done Government to pass this Bill or according to the law because not. What kind of Government every political party in Botswana do the Honourable Members is registered and when they are wish to have? Do we wish for a registered, they are bound to Government that is characterized follow certain regulations. by conflicts? When we are talking about the Government, KGOSI SEBOKO: Thank we are not referring to a party. you, Mr Chairman. What I am This Bill is not changing election asking is that, if it so happens processes or anywhere else in the that a party decides to amend its Constitution except where stated. constitution, upon so doing some I overheard some Honourable members do not agree with the Members saying to vacate a seat changes or maybe they feel that is a great loss to the one vacating these changes are unfair, when it. Commenting on that, I say they voice their disagreement that one does not buy that seat, and they are expelled, how is this it does not belong to anyone. going to affect the Government. Being Kgosi, one is there for the What are the implications of an aspirations of his people. The altered party constitution to the Government that Kgosi is part of, democratic government? is the one that is in charge. It does HONOURABLE MASISI: not however mean that Kgosi Party constitution is like an is the sole proprietor. There is establishment of a matrimonial a Setswana expression to the home. Rules are laid down, effect that one is born a Kgosi, there are reprimands and that but one is installed into that seat. should be done for the marriage He will be given directions on to either prosper or fail. It how to conduct his business. is the same principle that is To change parties Honourable followed in party constitutions. Members, the Bill seeks to have In short, Honourable Members, a vacancy on the seat which that

153 Friday 27th January, 2012 Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2011 Second Reading (Resumed Debate) member occupied. It does not for all. This Bill is not designed mean that one does not have for the benefit of any party, it is the qualification or the right to meant for everyone. This will curb occupy that seat. situations where people change their party affiliation and do so MR CHAIRMAN: Can I with the people’s vote. Let us interrupt you Honourable not encourage this; let us rectify Minister. We will stop here for it. This Bill aims at bringing refreshments. I will request that serenity. There should not be this during tea break, Honourable fear that election will be frequent. Members should think about Even us Parliamentarians, we do resolutions and you should not enjoy them because we spend do the drafts so that when we on them. Worse even, there is no reconvene, we go straight to guarantee that one will be elected that stage after the Honourable again. This will therefore call for Minister completes his response. one’s best behaviour to avoid We will meet again at 1100hrs. a situation of going back to the polls, except only when it is PROCEEDINGS necessary. Contrary to the belief SUSPENDED FOR TEA that the elections will be frequent, MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI people will avoid crossing to GABORONE): Good morning other parties. The intention of this once again, Honourable Bill goes hand in hand with that Members. When we adjourned, of political parties who wish for the Minister was on the floor victory in the elections. They will with his clarification. I will give not want to lose, that is why they the Minister those few minutes to will be true to their association wrap up quickly. with the electorate. Lastly, I want to show my appreciation MINISTER FOR at how much you seem to have P R E S I D E N T I A L grasped the intention of this Bill AFFAIRS AND PUBLIC and I implore you to pass it with ADMINISTRATION (HON sincere hearts. Thank you, Mr M. E. MASISI): Thank you, Mr Chairman. Chairman. Let me wrap up by saying, Honourable Members, MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you, it is my humble request that this Honourable Minister. This was Bill is meant to bring peace and by way of summarizing the stability in Botswana, tranquility Second Reading of the Bill and

154 Friday 27th January, 2012 Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2011 - Resolution clarifying some of the comments. this House adjourn for about 10 This then means that we have minutes to allow Members to finished the Second Reading of draft something. I want to hear this Bill. We will proceed. the House, if it agrees with the motion to adjourn for 10 or 15 CONSTITUTION minute. (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2011 (NO. 15 OF 2011) Question put and agreed to

Resolution Honourable Minister, the request here is that we break for few MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you minutes. I will give the Members Honourable Members, we are at up to 1130hrs. We will reconvene the Resolution stage. I believe here at 1130hrs. the Members know the procedure when it comes to this stage. Any P R O C E E D I N G S Member who has any resolution SUSPENDED or a draft of the resolution can bring it to the Chairman. The MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI Chairman will then move the PUSO GABORONE): Let meet drafts according to their order. greet you yet again, I have no We will then discuss the drafts idea how many times I greeted of the resolution until there is you this morning. Welcome the main one that we feel should from the short break we took be the resolution of this House. to draft the resolutions. As I Now, I will receive drafts of the already explained, what is going resolutions brought before this to happen is that, I am going to House by any Member. accept our drafts of the resolution accordingly until we are left with KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II those that are fundamental. We (BAROLONG): Mr Chairman, I will do that in the order in which have a request, can we adjourn for they were brought up. I have five to ten minutes? This is to give received three drafts. As per the us time to draft the Resolution. Rules of this House, I will read Maybe the Honourable Members them out for the Honourable have already drafted I do not Members. I think the Members know but my proposal is to will eventually agree on the adjourn for five to ten minutes. resolution of this House. Is there any other draft that is yet to be MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you, submitted? If there is none, I Kgosi Lotlamoreng moves that 155 Friday 27th January, 2012 Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2011 - Resolution will consider these drafts to be These are the three drafts the only ones for deliberation. submitted to me. Amongst these, Rule 39(6) states that the motion Honourable Members should to be moved by the Chairperson state which one should be our on a draft resolution shall be; focus. It seems they all express “That the Chairperson’s (or the same thing or rather they are ………’s) draft resolution be similar. read paragraph by paragraph.” Once any such question has KGOSI SEEMEKO: Mr been agreed to, no motion shall Chairman, I wanted to say that, be moved in respect of further to me they mean the same thing. drafts but portions thereof may Thank you, Sir. be offered as amendments to MR CHAIRMAN: In other the draft under consideration words, the resolution before this if they are relevant to it.” ‘The House states that the proposed Ntlo ya Dikgosi shall then go Section 2(1)(d) and (e) should be through the draft resolutions deleted and the existing Section paragraph by paragraph and 68 of the Constitution should be when each paragraph is reached left as it is. The other one says the Chairperson shall move ‘that (d) and (e) should be cancelled, the paragraph ……stand part of whilst the other declares that the resolution.” they should be deleted. This I will now read the drafts as I then means that there is one have them here:- resolution.

1. That the below subsection “NtloYa Dikgosi shall then go 1(d) and (e) be cancelled. through draft resolution paragraph by paragraph.” In this instance, 2. That clause 2(1)(d) and (e) there is only one paragraph and and further that Section 68 when each paragraph is reached, of the Constitution remain the Chairperson shall move that the same. that paragraph should be part of the resolution. It continues 3. That the newly proposed to say, “When consideration Section 2(1)(d) and (e) of a draft resolution, paragraph should be deleted and the by paragraph, is concluded and existing Section 68 of the when all motions relating to new Constitution be left as it is.’ paragraphs have been disposed of, the Chairperson shall put

156 Friday 27th January, 2012 Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2011 - Resolution the question that the resolutions who are against should show by be the resolution of the NtloYa saying ‘no.’ Dikgosi.” Before we conclude this resolution, are there any Question put and agreed to comments from Honourable This House has taken a decision Members? that Section 2 (1) (d) and (e) KGOSI KAHIKO III: I do of the Bill brought before this not think there are comments House be deleted and the existing since we have finished with Section 68 of the Constitution the resolution. The drafts were of Botswana be left as it is. brought to the Chairman and This concludes the resolution read and all of them are the same. stage. This resolution according This means that the House assent to the Rules will have to be to the resolution. certified under the Secretary and Chairman’s hand as a true copy MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you, thereof, and forwarded to the Kgosi Kahiko. If there is no Clerk of the National Assembly comment on the resolution, let as the resolution of this House. us conclude by a way of voting to establish if this should be the This brings us to the end of resolution of the House. I have debating the Constitution been silent for a moment because (Amendment) Bill 2011 No. 15 according to the rules, that is the of 2011. Thank you, Honourable “basis of discussion” I take it Members. I will give the Minister the silence from the Honourable the opportunity to say a word. Members confirm that Members MINISTER FOR caucused and there is nothing P R E S I D E N T I A L else they want to discuss. I will AFFAIRS AND PUBLIC then put the question whether ADMINISTRATION (HON Members agree that the resolution M. E. MASISI): Mr Chairman, before this House, which will I thank the Honourable Members propose that Section 2(1)(d) and for having acted according to (e) be deleted and the existing the Constitution of a democratic Section 68 of the Constitution Government. In Setswana, every be left as it is. If Members agree opinion matters. I am grateful that that this should be the resolution the House debated, deliberated, of the House they should show and made a resolution. Thank that by saying ‘aye’ and those you.

157 Friday 27th January, 2012 Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2011 - Resolution

MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Honourable Minister. We are grateful that you came before this House to present this Bill to Dikgosi so that they can make their input and thereafter advise accordingly as it is requested by the law. This gave them the chance to debate and air their views on this Bill. We thank you Honourable Minister for your time with us on this business. I thank the Honourable Members as well for their debate on the Bill and on the resolution taken by the House. Although we may have differed in opinions, I consider that to be a sign of our open- mindedness. The intention is for everyone to express their views freely and that is democracy. Thank you for your cooperation. This therefore brings us to the end of today’s Order Paper. We will stop here with the business of the House. I will be meeting you again in a short while to discuss some issues and next week’s programme. Thank you.

ADJOURNMENT

The House accordingly adjourned at 12:00 p.m.

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