Interviewee: JANSEN, Robbie Interviewer: MILLER, Colin Amu1.07

Oral History interview with . Interviewer: Colin Miller. Date: 23 November 1998.

CM: When were you born Robbie?

RJ: 1949, 5th August. CM: Where were you bom?

RJ: Here in Elsiesriver, no, no I lie, Peninsula hospital, that's in town hey? But my mothers lived in Claremont, Harfield Village, now Harfield village, it use to be called Harfield road, then Harfield Road station, then we moved to Elsiesriver.

CM: So was your family removed from Harfield?

RJ: Well, my grandparents yes, they were removed ja because the area was declared white, ja in the Group Areas, it was a Group Alreas thing, anyway, we moved to Elsiesriver before that, with my mother and father.

CM: What did your mom do for a living?

RJ: My mom is in the dress making and designing business, she's always worked in the factory as a machinist, and my father, he was a shoe maker, he used to work in factories as well, but he had his own shop, down the road here in Halt Road. He had his own shoe shop, and I would work there afternoons.

CM: You use to work there?

RJ: I use to work there in the afternoon, help out there. My father was also a musician. He used to play trumpet also in the Salvation Army.

CM: OK, so he learnt to play in the Salvation Army.

RJ: Ja, he use to be an instructor in Claremont.

CM: How many brothers and sisters were you in the family?

RJ: We are three brothers and five sisters, six sisters and the other one was born in like later, the baby sister. Ja, they all into, not all of them, the two of them are into working in banks and stuff the other is all into dressmaking and sewing.

CM: Follow your mom, your moms routine?

RJ: My one brother is in the gospel and he also plays saxophone, trumpet, and flute.

CM: Was there a church influencing seeing that your dad was involved in the Salvation Army?

RJ: Well yes, I was also in the choir, Salvation Army choir. But my family from both sides was very religious. I was the naughty boy.

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CM: So they were religious?

RJ: Ja, my mother was all the years my mother and my brother who is now in the gospel, he has been there since 12. When my mother would go to church he would go with her, when Elsies rivier was still bush, you know, sand roles when they use to walk with a candle and a kaki (?). They would go to people's houses; they were at a house there were no church buildings then and my mother likes to sing in church.

CM: What school did you first go to? What primary school?

RJ: The Lutheran, Lutheran church.

CM: Where's that?

RJ: That's here in Elsiesriver, 40th Street. Now the principal there was Nicky Parker, he was also a bandleader. I did not know it hen but I mean my grandfather use to play in the band with him. And I later played with his son Trevor Parker, also a people's player.

CM: And Elsiestiver as a community, what did people do for like social. Were there dancers here?

RJ: JA, lots of dancers, hops, we use to call it hops. We use to go in the people's yards and house parties and stuff like that that's probably how I got into... but I was into music from early age. I use to come lay under the gram in my mother grandmother's house every afternoon after school. While studying I lay under the gram [gramophone! and listen to music.

CM: What were you listening to?

RJ: Only pop music. No, no that's a lie. My aunts also had this Johnny Mathis and Nat King Cole records and Victor Sylvester dance records and stuff like that. I would listen to that as well but I played concertina my mother gave me a concertina when I was still small and that use to be my, you know, I used to play everytime while other laaities would go and play soccer or whatever I play that thing.

CM: We were there other friends of yours also interested in music?

RJ: Well, we had like a singing group in Claremont. ... My life is divided between Elsies and Claremont. Cause living here for the one-year and the following year I ' d go to Claremont. And then I'd come back here and go back to Claremont and live with my grandma, because they were scared that I was going to become a skollie or something like that because here in this place was a roughplace at that time. But growing up in a house like my parent's there's were no way that you can become that, you know? Even though we were poor and all that. Ja. they would take me out of Claremont and I would go to Rosmead Primary. Same thing with the High school, I went to Elsies High and then I went to Livingstone. Those are English Higher here it's Afrikaans Higher, you know that's why I'm okay with both languages, and I know the two, it's like two very different communities. There its very English life style, shoes are polished and your pants sit up here by your navel and stuff like that. Here in Elsiesrivier, that time your pants would hang here at the bottom and move with takkies and royal blue trousers and balloon, that was the fashion here and Afrikaans speaking mainly, and like Claremont was the English speaking.

CM: Do you remember when your grandmother was removed? When the group areas threw them out?

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RJ: Ja.

CM: What year was it?

RJ: That's hard to say. I think I was in Angola at the time must have been in 1970 could be 1975. I 'm not so 100% sure of that.

CM: What were you doing in Angola?

RJ: I went to play there. Ja, we got a contract there. We got a contract for a year but it turned sour you know the war hit the city, Luanda, then we were like practically stranded there because of this curfew from 9 o'clock onwards, we were not allowed on the streets and that is it....

CM: Ja. I remember hearing you guys were stranded in Angola. What was the band you were playing with then?

RJ: Onswietie, that was Onswietie with Russell Herman of course.

CM: Who were to other musicians?

RJ: Kapdi, Nazeem Kapdi. Kader Khan who is managing the Galaxy now, Mervin Africa, Basil Coetzee. Who else? That was the... Lionel Beukes of course, bassplayer. Lionel Beukes, it was a nice band.

CM: Was that one of your first bands or were there bands that came before that?

RJ: No there was before that. I started in a band before the Bismarck but the Bismarck was one of solid band that was my first band. Not the very first band but I mean there were too little bands before that. I think one was called the Larks, the other was, was there another one?.. It was long ago. Anyway how I came into the band was because I could speak English you know here in Elsiesrivier. I use to move around with the bands, watch them from outside the house there. They use to rehearse in a house there in Matroosfontein. I would take a walk there to the back of the area, it was the house the Magnets use to practice there, and then not so far away was the Trim Beats and of course the Bismarcks too. I use to just pop in there and being a shoemaker's son you know. I use to have all this glue and rivets and stuff, something the amp like tear I would like paste it up, paint it or make it look nice or so. And one day the guys asked me to write down the lyrics of a song because they could not catch the lyrics it's English, they the British guys they sing funny. Ja, I wrote the words for them the song was called "Let me be", by The Turtles (Let me be. Let me be, be what I want to, I am what I am that's all I that I ever will be.) Anyway I wrote the lyrics and the bass player was suppose to sing the song the following night in a competition here in the Civic Center. I was working in the knitting factory, as a knitter and this guy Walter Brown, has been a musician for a long time he came to asked me," hey man don't you want to sing that song tonight, in the show? And I was supposed to be working nightshift. And okay I took out my little green suit, my Christmas suit, did it up for the evening and I went to sing. There I got the first price because the song was like too difficult for the bass player to sing that's why they asked me. I got a little trophy like that.

CM: That's how your music career started?

RJ: That's how I got involved really with the music, since then, since then.

CM: Where did the saxophone come in?

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RJ: I started out after singing I learnt to play the guitar, with the Rockets. I was playing guitar and doing the vocals also.

(Interruption)......

CM: You started playing guitar?

RJ: Ja, a little guitar, a bit of drums, some bass as well. I never really got onto the keyboards because you know it was not always easily available. Electronic keyboards only came in like in 1969, 1968, 69.

CM: Where were you guys playing with the Rockets?

RJ: Eureka lounge. We played the Stardust. We played all over, all over, Ceres, Worcester Wellington, Malmesbury, the whole Cape Peninsula we played flat. Grassy Park, what's that plays called? the Jolly Kaap. We had quite a large following. We even had two hit records. It was Itchy Fingers and Argie, Argie referring to Cape Argus. And '69 we won a competition, national, national of bands competition. I must give you, show you these photos at the back. Ja, we won this competition it gave us a trip to London, Paris and so on. Ja, we were still young laaties. I must show you the pictures. In fact they should have lots and lots of pictures in the archives, you know the Cape Herald and the Post and the Argus and Times. Say from 1968 onwards because from then we, I mean, were always involved with the press, you know. Those two pictures I have in the back I got from the Herald, anyway that's when we left for London.

CM: So did you play over in London too?

RJ: Ja, but now to win the competition we had to sound a little different. You asked me just now when I got onto the sax and how. All right, after a car and that, I first bought me a trumpet. And that was hard to play. I just played it a little bit, and then I bought me a flute, that was all before the saxophone, and when the competition came up, then I had to buy the saxophone. Ja, we had to sound different. You see all the bands that then were playing like Shadows and Beatles you know, free guitars and drums and vocals are one. (Another interruption as tea arrives) You also have one? (referrinig to the sugar) Ja, Ha ha ha (laughs). More than one is good.

Before we had a house, I mean it was a house, it was a wooden house like, these Wendy houses but a big, quite a large one cause they were having a big family you know, big crowds also. I lived on what they they called the bull, op die heuwel and just over the hill the location started. They use to call it "die Kaffir Lokasie." That was like, how we got to know it, and I use to move then, cause I used to move through there to go to school, and that's where I first learnt to sit around the galley, the fire, in the evenings or on Saturdays. The guys would sit with their guitars and the string bass, the tea box bass. I still remember, what is it?

CM: Stoffelbass.

RJ: JA... Wat soorte tea box was daai nou weer? Ha, ha ha (both)

CM: Three Trees.

RJ: I remember something of an anchor there, but anyway. Ja, those... I use to watch those guys. And of course the Kwela Kids use to play at the station here, the bus terminus on top. I use to follow them around. Listen to what they play and stuff like that, so that's why it wasn't very difficult

©Centre for Popular Memory, University of Cape Town 2010. 4 Reproduction prohibited without direct consent from CPM. www.popularmemory.org.za Interviewee: JANSEN, Robbie Interviewer: MILLER, Colin Amu1.07 for me while I was playing music to change over, you know what I mean? Cause I had that experience. I listened to that penny whistle. My favourite record was Little Lemmy and Spokes Matsheane, that stuff, you know. Before of course I moved to the saxophone. Right and so with the Rockets, I took up the saxophone and went to London. In London our record company that we recorded for. they gave us each a present, and it was a double album of Chicago. And I'm just starting the saxophone, about three months playing saxophone, not even three months, less, because it was a competition you know. It was mainly for that. Not really thinking I'd get serious with it, but then when I heard that record, I mean I never really listened to jazz before that and that wasn't exactly jazz, that is fusion stuff. But I then heard how a band can sound with those horns, you know. And then we got in the late Willie Nettie, the trombone player. And I taught the bass player of the Rockets, I taught him to play the sax then I took the trumpet and we had a three piece horn section. But eventually the musicians in the Rockets became a bit limited because we took young guys you know? The one guy was a great musician, George, George Carelse and. Claude Brown also a guitarist, great guitar player, but the music was limited. We did copies of all the hit parade stuff. We were very on top of the hit parade, you know that time you young and you play for the girls and for the screaming, shouts and stuff like that. Well we use to practice, day and night in Strandfontein bungalows, it use to cost us R2.00 day there and we would rent two bungalows and LM radio, and we would listen to LM radio and before a song was a hit, we would catch him, and learn it, and play it so by the weekend we would play those songs and it's a release this weekend. We use to make these songs famous. And then we started making Chicago, and Blood Sweat and Tears and groups like Ten Wheel Drive (?) and that. They also all became famous through us. Because the people, didn't know that music but we introduced it to them. And then there was this group the Pacifies. Before they were called the Pacifies Express. The Rockets had a session with them here, in the Eureka lounge early. We played the half and they played the second half. And when I heard those guys I. I decided no, I'm suppose to be with these people. That very same night I went to speak to them and asked them for a sight in the band.

CM: Who were the guys?

RJ: It was Issie Harodien, Basil Coetzee, again, and Boeta Mac who was on trumpet. Paula Ebrahim on bass. Jack Momple on the drums and of course I took Willie Nettie with me and Georgie Karelse.

CM: Willie Nettie was involved also with Chris Megregor at one point, is that correct?

RJ: Willie Nettie, I saw him on the Percy Sledge show. And I went to fetch him and I said come play with us now!

CM: Oh, so he played on the Percy Sledge show with Cliffie and Basil?

RJ: That's right, Sammy Hartman, and so on, and, Roy Petersen.

CM: 1975, Percy Sledge or sometime around there ha?

RJ: I think it was before "75, '75, I was already in Onswietie. I just walked away from Pacific Express. I joined the Pacific Express 71, 1971 I played with them and then, Ja, then Onswietie came after that.

CM: What I'm interested in, is also understanding where were you guys playing? Was it mainly coloured places? Or did you play in white places too?

RJ: No not really. At that stage., the Rockets we played what was it called? There were clubs in central Cape Town, Long Street, and, we played those clubs, but after a while it was illegal to play in white clubs. You know, so that is why we had to play now pop music there. You know we played, with

©Centre for Popular Memory, University of Cape Town 2010. 5 Reproduction prohibited without direct consent from CPM. www.popularmemory.org.za Interviewee: JANSEN, Robbie Interviewer: MILLER, Colin Amu1.07 the Rockets we played all the night spots, because we were like a popular band of the time. But I think it was about 1970, 71, 72 or so when it was almost impossible to play those white clubs, unless you played at the low sleazy places you know. So we played mainly in so called Coloured spots. We hardly got to the townships, you know I mean in the black townships.

CM: Were African guys coming over to play with you guys?

RJ: Yes. No the musicians never had a problem with the racial things you know, because the black guys and white guys were always playing together. It was just we had to play pop to earn some money. Well of course, the white musicians they enjoyed nightlife, because they could play jazz, they didn't have to play pop.

CM: They could play the hotel circuit.

RJ: Ezra Ncgcukana, Duke, his brother they played with us for a long time with groups like Ons Wietie. And we played for many years [with] Mankunku.

CM: So for how long did Ons Wietie go for?

RJ: Ons Wietie, '71,'72,'73 and then I went back to the Pacific's, then back to Ons Wietie again. You know, there was this thing of jobs, you had to work, you know? I met my wife to be then and we needed to get married, so I needed to get a job, and the factory only paid me R2.70 a week.

CM: Where were you working during this time?

RJ: I use to work in the day as well, in the knitting factory. With the Rockets, eventually, I gave up working but had to go back to working with the Pacific Express again, weren't earning enough money. So I went to work with Issie. Harodien he got me a job in the factory making satchels and stuff, so my early experience with leather goods and stuff that had helped. Then I worked with Issie for a while. Then I went to work on the building with Jack Momple, doing waterproofing on the roofs, carrying heavy buckets of of tar on those high scaffles, what's the building called? The Provincial building hey? In town. Ja, we did those roofs and Groote Schuur roofs. All the waterproofing and stuff like that. We would listen to the music and in the evening come and practice. Basil used to work in the shoe factory, Basil Coetzee. So there was a lot of work going on.

CM: And then the recording? You say you guys recorded songs with the Rockets and and then later again......

RJ: Ja with the Rockets we recorded those seven singles, 'Itchy fingers' and 'Argie' and then we also did two albums, Sounds Wild 3, and Sounds Wild 4, which were all cover versions and they were arranged by a guy called Werner Kruetski (?), and then he had a studio called UCA, sound studio in town. We recorded the songs Wild Stuff. We made a record in London but it did not get very far. But with Pacific Express we made another album, then the album is still sort of very popular people still even play it on the radio nowadays. I believe it's going to be put on CD. We played all Chris Schilder, or is now Ebrahim, all his compositions and he let me do most of the horn arranging and stuff on that album. But in that time of the Pacific Express, Basil introduced us to Abdullah Ebrahim, then known as Dollar. And he gave us a quick lesson and a cycle of fifths, here in the Eureka lounge. He'd give you a cup and he'd put it there and he drew the circle and explain to us you know this is a cycle of fifths. And that was like one of my first like sort of real lessons I had. I did not understand. I mean I could only read in sound you know just play by hearing, not knowing what note I'm playing, what's the name of that note or whatever. Ja. so Abdullah gave me my first lesson and then we made some recordings with Basil, myself, Monty Weber and Paul Michaels. We made about

©Centre for Popular Memory, University of Cape Town 2010. 6 Reproduction prohibited without direct consent from CPM. www.popularmemory.org.za Interviewee: JANSEN, Robbie Interviewer: MILLER, Colin Amu1.07 eight albums worth of material. Now and then I hear something coming out, something being released in the UK, or in the States. Stuff that we recorded then in '74,'75.

CM: Under what name was it recorded?

RJ: Abdullah, Ebrahim. The Manenberg was one of the albums that came off that thing. We worked about eight, nine days and every day we would make about album worth of material. We did a lot of recordings and I couldn't play then. You know? Not that I can play now. And I mean then it was like new to me to play like our own music you know. Dollar's music. And I never like really improvised before that.

CM: So in a way Abdullah introduced you guy, or you at least?

RJ: Ja, I was introduced to our, this like Cape Sound through Abdullah directly.

CM: And jazz, the influence of that sound too?

RJ: I would say yes, because I joined the Pacific Express to learn from Basil. You know more about the saxophone. But then we were playing like I say cover version, Chicago stuff and all that. And After the record and stuff Basil pulled out and he decided he doesn't want to play this kind a music. But me well you know I was still there and carried on but I also started developing on my own, you know writing some stuff. When I got to Angola, we made my first CD, Vastrap Island. The music of that album was mostly written in Angola.

CM: And who were the guys included on that album?

RB: On that album was is on there, shoo I need some water, ha ha. Ha

CM: It's all right under pressure. I'll go look for it don't worry, I'll go look for the album.

RJ: Ja, the Vastrap Island album, there's Errol Dyers on guitar, Paul Peterson also played on one track and Steven Erasmus on bass and Hilton Schilder on key boards.

CM: What year was that one recorded? Remember?

RJ: '90, 1990. I think it was recorded '89, it was released '91

CM: So Paul was on that one already?

RJ: Paul Petersen? Paul Petersen, guitar player?

CM: He is now in the states right or he was still here?

RJ: He played Spirit Rejoice?

CM: That's right, that's how I know the name

RJ: Last night, last night someone approached me and said Paul asked if he could record one of my songs because he is busy recording, busy recording now so that song is on one that Spirits Rejoice album, "Why all this time". I haven't written much since but anyway I probably have to start writing now again.

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CM: Small world, I, I bought his house when he left Woodstock

RJ: Is it?

CM: Paul

RJ: Issie also stayed there.

CM: 11 But I still see Emily, Emily is his wife ne? I still see her sometimes

RJ: Ja, Oh she's still in Woodstock?

CM: Ja.

RJ: Issie is also in Woodstock. I stayed up in Woodstock

CM: I remember. I use to see you walk up the Roodeblom.

RJ: That's where I stayed, Ja, Roodebloem. When I was in America they chucked my wife out of there.

CM: Where was this?

RJ: There out of Roodebloem. JA they renovated that places.

CM: I want to go back a little to your own personal life again. When you got married did you have kids?

RJ: Yes my daughter and son, Renee and Russell.

CM: How old are they now?

RJ: My daughter she is 27 and Russell is 24 and they both sing quite nice. My daughter use to sing with me in the band. In fact we had a band you can check there, their initials are also RJ so we had a band called RJ Heartthrobs.

CM: I remember the Heartthrobs.

RJ: You remember that band?

RJ: We went to Jo'burg thinking we could play pop then the people didn't want the pop. So we had to come back to our home, back to the roots again, you know. And now, but I still do the club circuit and that though. Just to stay on top of things. Many of the guys think ja, well you know, I shouldn't be doing that, but for me it's all a matter of experience. I'm learning all the time. There I'm playing with this young guy Allou April. He plays guitar but he plays a different guitar. I have to leam about it, I have to know! For me it's important because it's all to do with the growth of our, of our music. Like I read once Mao Tsetung talk to music workers. He calls them music workers, you don't call them musicians. Chinese, I mean not Chinese music, classical music, American music; you study all the music under the world. And you come back to China and you analyse it then you make it Chinese then you're play. Chinese music. And that statement had a you know very serious meaning to me. Because I just changed the China for Africa. And I saw that it is our duty, you know, to make our music, do

©Centre for Popular Memory, University of Cape Town 2010. 8 Reproduction prohibited without direct consent from CPM. www.popularmemory.org.za Interviewee: JANSEN, Robbie Interviewer: MILLER, Colin Amu1.07 something to the music. Not to just leave it the way it was. Because we had cultural boycotts and all that stuff. So that what I told you earlier about turning like this into opportunity, its exactly what happened. So that was a problem. Cultural boycotts, so we had to revert to our own thing and work at it, and make it nice and good enough to be able to be an internationally accepted music. And I think... so far, I mean I hardly hear poor musicians in this country. You know. Musicians nowadays they very much on top and our music is moving throughout the world, and it's great. That's why for me to keep growing is important. Cause if I must teach the younger musicians something, I must know what they like and what appeals to them as well. I can't just think of the past. Because the past this minute is gone already. So we just moving forward.

CM: Robbie can I ask you one more maybe it sounds stupid question. But in musical terms and I ask a lot of musicians this. What makes in musical terms? Is it the rhythmic elements or is it melodic elements?

RJ: I really can't pinpoint it. I know a lot of people say it sounds different, but to me it just African Jazz, you know. The Cape Jazz label I think that's a sales pitch. I think that's just to give it a name. But I also find that there is a Cape flavour of sound, but it just because we all born here. Capetonians are born in Cape Town. You know you find people from Durban they also adopt the city. They come here and they live here because it's nice, and then they later on, they play the same kind of music. It's in the air, I guess. I ' m always being asked this question. Whenever I'm interviewed, I'm asked this question. How is Cape music different to other music? Like I said technically I can't explain that, but it's there. In fact what maybe prompts that is the langarm, you know the ballroom was the dance band element. Now, we we grew up with that sounds. You know like during the December holidays wherever you walk you'll hear people play that music. Loud. So when I bought my first saxophone the first songs I attempted were like those langarm songs you know, I mean I even had my mouthpiece upside down. I've never even seen somebody really playing the saxophone.

CM: Vastrap and stuff like that?

RJ: Ja, ja. Like under album sleep and Vastrap Island, I, I intended Vastrap Island meaning to have been trapped on an island because we became an island of our isolation, you know? I mean to be vas getrap means to be trapped on an island but it was the word was misinterpreted 'cause it was said on the sleeve there that vastrap is a dance made by the indigenous peoples here. They use to dance that after bartering with them you know the settlers and all that stuff. I don't know about that. I mean, OK, that's like supposed to be part of history but that's wasn't intended that way.

CM: We meant it differently!

RJ: Ja, very different to that. And JA, Most of that music was music born out of the struggle. One particular title, "How I love to feel free in my land" now we did a documentary on. called that. Did you check that? That was with Matthews, Jimmy Matthews. Ja, like 'Kalahari Thirst', 'Where have been', but now its taking a different turn. Now music is changing for the music itself. The message is still very strong like, you know? Well you know the Cape music well. Ja, but langarm has had a direct effect on this thing they call Cape Jazz because

CM: Jimmy Adams claims he claims that's what it's about. He says it's the ghoemma people's music.

RJ: That's right

CM: He comes from that langarm tradition.

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RJ: He's right. He's right. It is. I mean we're only going on with what they did you know. We going again on with the same music, nothing different, It's just that it's modern days now. But I heard the record Jimmy playing with Abdullah; it's very, very nice. I just heard that last week, first time.

CM: Thank you very much.

RJ: My pleasure.

CM: Thanks.

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