Magnus Lindberg in Conversation. Moving between Extremes Author(s): Magnus Lindberg, Joshua Cody, Kirk Noreen Source: The Musical Times, Vol. 141, No. 1872 (Autumn, 2000), pp. 33-38 Published by: Musical Times Publications Ltd. Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/1004396 Accessed: 30/09/2008 01:13

Your use of the JSTOR archive indicates your acceptance of JSTOR's Terms and Conditions of Use, available at http://www.jstor.org/page/info/about/policies/terms.jsp. JSTOR's Terms and Conditions of Use provides, in part, that unless you have obtained prior permission, you may not download an entire issue of a journal or multiple copies of articles, and you may use content in the JSTOR archive only for your personal, non-commercial use.

Please contact the publisher regarding any further use of this work. Publisher contact information may be obtained at http://www.jstor.org/action/showPublisher?publisherCode=mtpl.

Each copy of any part of a JSTOR transmission must contain the same copyright notice that appears on the screen or printed page of such transmission.

JSTOR is a not-for-profit organization founded in 1995 to build trusted digital archives for scholarship. We work with the scholarly community to preserve their work and the materials they rely upon, and to build a common research platform that promotes the discovery and use of these resources. For more information about JSTOR, please contact [email protected].

Musical Times Publications Ltd. is collaborating with JSTOR to digitize, preserve and extend access to The Musical Times.

http://www.jstor.org Magnus Lindberg in conversation Moving between extremes A leading Finnish discusses some of his recent music with Joshua Cody and Kirk Noreen Joshua Cody fected by other twentieth-century compositional This dialogue is an to Ur, Related rocks is different, like the Viennese; he thinks the edited transcription Compared very developments, of an interview and is from a eclectic textbooks give to the Schoenber- composed conspicuously priority history with Magnus rocks is the for is For group of stylistic sources. As Related gian 'revolution', instance, exaggerated. Lindberg, which more recent work, does it represent a current him, the single crucial event would not be Schoen- took place before trend in your writing? berg's conversion to serialism, but the advent of an Ensemble electronics. Your influences, on the contrary,are Sospeso concert varied: here we have another given in New York Magnus Lindberg extremely perhaps on 11 November That'san interesting question, since, when I look illustration of the difference between the conti- 1999, at which back over my compositional career,I've never felt nental composer and those, to use your word, on Related rocks and that I underwent a rupture in terms of style. It'sa the periphery. Ur were performed. matter of an organic process, and my teacher, , had a fantastic understanding of ML variation form: the idea of doing very different I think it does. Tristan,of course, is a continental things in the same way. Of course we refer to Stra- composer, having been brought up in a culture vinsky as the composer who constantly changed where becoming a composer was not particularly himself, but I would say he never changed: he unheard of, where there were, in fact, schools of was Stravinskyfrom the very first piece up to the thought to follow. As far as Schoenberg- without very end. It comes down to the consistency of going into a discussion about the artistic value of method, and Stravinsky happened to have a fan- his music, which I, by the way, think is fabulous tastic one, which enabled him to feed his creativ- - still there was a man who was deeply concerned ity with the material at hand, without losing his with the future of music over the next century; own creative personality. having given us some of the most beautiful tonal works, like VerklarteNacht and Gurrelieder,built JC on the visible remnants of the tonal world, he re- Like you, Stravinskywas celebrated on the conti- alised at a certainmoment that he had to do some- nent, especially in France; and both of you come thing radically different, and it remains radical. from outside the continent. Maybe there's a cul- I'm not the one to say whether he made the right tural connection here between the relationship to decision. But I definitely think that he showed us style. what our century,which is soon over, was about, in that one cannot stay to a certain script; tradi- ML tion is constantly reinvented, and Schoenberg re- This is an interesting issue too, of course: the no- mains the strongest exemplar of this idea. tion of being outside of a cultural tradition versus And I have the deepest respect for other lines inside, and the bearing of that sense upon stylis- of development: those from Faure, for example, tic decisions. Again, I've never felt I've undergone from Berlioz, from Rameau, even, that many a particularstylistic rupture, but at the same time French identify with. Of course this is, I acknowledge a certain eclecticism - the differ- perhaps, one of the advantages, for me, of being ence between Ur and Relatedrocks, to use our ex- from the outside; when we look back into history ample, in terms of how they actually sound. But I and think about the fight between composers like wouldn't say they're so different. Brahms and Wagner, for example, we see that they weren't so far apart from each other, really, JC because we have the luxury of distance in time. You'resharing our programwith works by Tristan Perhaps I enjoy a sort of similar distance, but in Murail, with whom we spoke yesterday.We are at geography.And I think there are many links be- as late a point as possible in the twentieth centu- tween Tristan'smusic - which I admire tremen- ry, and what is somewhat surprising is Murail's dously - and that of some German composers, for sense of connection to the French musical tradi- example. We're all in the same boat. tion, through his teacher, Messiaen, back to De- Of course, Schoenbergpaid a high price for giv- bussy and even Dukas. He feels relatively unaf- ing up the tonal model, the framework.He was a

THE MUSICAL TIMES / AUTUMN 2000 33 great musician, and by dragging the balance to- Of course the , in our century, has been wards the parameterof pitch, his rhythmic sense, mainly used as a percussion instrument; I wished and even his formalsense, became very simple, al- to stress that point of view. Now, at the very time most revertingto the Baroque.I think that was a when I was involved in building up the dra- very sensitive and sincerefeeling of a genuine artist, maturgy of the work, I happened to see a geolog- doing what he felt was necessaryat that moment. ical exposition, and was struck by the immense natural variety of stones, rocks, minerals, collect- JC ed from far corners of the earth; and it was at the We spoke of this very point too yesterday: the fa- same time a completely unified assemblage. And mous contradiction between Schoenberg'sexper- this struck me as a beautiful metaphor, not just imental use of harmony and his conservative use for the work I was composing, but for how I feel of form. Tristan seems to agree with Pierre about music in general: the notion of taking very Boulez, who felt that in this sense Schoenberg's different sound objects, and exploring, from dif- music ultimately failed to live up to its promises ferent perspectives and different distances, quali- of breaking free of tradition. But Helmut Lachen- ties they share. At that moment I also realised I mann has a very different diagnosis: that this ob- would use electronics in the piece, not as a bridge vious contradiction was entirely intentional, that between the and the percussion, but to Schoenberg was making a very strong aesthetic create a space within which the different materi- statement, almost postmodern in its violence. And als can be handled. Perhapsit's also kind of a trio: you have a third opinion, that it was almost sen- maybe a BermudaTriangle. If I could borrow from timental on Schoenberg'spart to look backwards Elliott Carter,the work could easily be called Triple as well as forwards,purposeful and not ironic. duo: two percussionists,two pianos, and two elec- tronic channels. ML There are two sources of the electronic sounds. I guess I'm a bit classical, in the sense that I have Some are transformationsof the sound of the ba- faith in equilibrium as a goal; we have seen so roque . And anothersource was the sound of a much art pushed to the extremes, neglecting total- huge grand piano, which I literally destroyed; I ly the idea of balance. In trying to write music I've sampledthe physicaldestruction of the instrument. felt a very strong impulse to the notion of equilib- rium, and when I push an element to an extreme I JC feel an urge to withdraw somewhere else. I think Since we're setting your works with those of Tris- Schoenbergwas very sensitive in that respect. An- tan Murail, I should ask you what you learned other composerI'm reminded of- he happens to be from studying with GerardGrisey. Finnish, but that's not why I bring him up - is Sibelius who, of course, is often considered tradi- ML tional and conservative.He was not necessarilytra- Those were important years for me, in the early ditional; he used harmony traditionally,but what eighties. I had been workingwith electronicsounds he achieved with that was certainly as modern as from the beginning; my first contacts with elec- Varese. Incidentally,I find many interesting links tronic music go back to the early seventies, at the between Vareseand Sibelius,those wonderfulcom- .In fact, we approachedideas of posers, both often misunderstood by commenta- electronic music theoretically, because we had tors on musical modernism. very little equipment; when I went to the Electro- And anyway, what is modernism? How can nic Music Studio of Stockholm, I finally had the someone define it? I'm a bit opposed to these de- chance to put my ideas into reality. Electronics finitions. A work like Tapiolaby Sibelius is one of have long been important to me, in spite of the the breakthroughs in terms of being an entirely fact that I consider myself an instrumental com- contemporarywork of modernism, for its time. poser; it seemed a very natural way of adding ex- pression to music. Kirk Noreen This was the importance, for me, of studying Can we talk about Relatedrocks? It was commis- with Gerard,since his aesthetics are based on an sioned by the IRCAM,as was Ur. But before we empirical approach to sound; ultimately,music is speak about the use of electronics in the work, the 'output', whether acoustically or electronical- what does the title mean? ly produced. What one does in the studio is what one does with an orchestra. ML And in spite of this, sound itself is something Well, it's not a programmatictitle [sic]. As far back that is not of crucial, defining importance for my as the mid-eighties I had had the idea of writing music. Of course I like sound; but to build up an a work for two pianos and two percussionists. At entire work on concepts of sound as such is not that time, my major concern was how to build a something I try to do. Because there is a strong bridge between these very different instruments. classical impulse in my makeup, perhapsstronger

34 THE MUSICAL TIMES / AUTUMN 2000 4 5 . - 16 1i0 fr K C:=- _ _ I 4 .rr - t rL r 8 0 i Kbd. I t_

(senzaPed.)

Pno. I

5 i:

Kbd. 2

Pno. 2

- ? f-f f f f -- i 3 - Pcrc. I _ _ - I - - 8JJI l6

Perc. 2 - 4 -G f 4 c------ff

4 ~6 4 3 43 16 6 168 8 16 8

Kbd, I

" ---- [~ r, -rr_'[. ',' -,r ' I_- , ._ 1 Pno. 1

- i 16 8 16 8 t

Kbd. 2

r[ lt: i

Pno. 2 ' .- t;' _ "rlW _r :: _ :

165 4

Perc. 1

Perc. 2

Magnus Lindberg: Related rocks (excerpt) (? 1999 Chester Music Ltd and reproduced by kind permission)

THE MUSICAL TIMES / AUTUMN 2000 35 now than it was in the eighties, the goal is to reestablisha balance between musical parameters, after having brought these parametersto such ex- tremes over the past few decades. I like trying to meld together these parameters,to create an illu- sion, at least, of balance between modes of ex- pression.

JC The twentieth century is fascinated by these very extreme forms of expression. But I must say that your music is sometimes associated with this trend. In fact, the IRCAMbrochure quotes you as saying - I paraphrasefrom memory - 'It'sthe ex- tremes that interest me, nothing in between'. But perhapsyou're talking about extending techniques to extremes while balancing them, inclining them all the while towards tradition.The notion of neo- classicism you're suggesting is much broaderthan Poulenc's neoclassicism. Could you expand on this?

ML It's a very complicated matter. What is extreme today, anyway? From a certain angle, the deter- mination and standardisationof modernism is it- self contradictory, since modernism is supposed to be based on change and progress. If the mod- ern spirit is alive and continuous, then it will not necessarily continue to push parameters to their Magnus Lindberg Information extremes, for ultimately that would become ret- (Photo: MaaritKytoharju/Finnish Music Centre) rogressive. And conversely, rediscovering balance might be a force of renewal. is prototypical, primitive, primal. It's also the name of an ancient Sumerian city. JC Historically it's not uncommon for a particularly ML intense, creative period of exploring, rethinking, Well, speaking of origins, the origin of Ur is an and transforminglanguage - certainly the case in earlier piece, , for orchestra and electronics. these last few generations of musicians - to be The two works are very closely linked, aestheti- followed by a movement to synthesise. cally. In fact, I wanted to create with the five in- strumentalists of Ur the illusion of Kraft'sorches- ML tral sonority, the sonic mass of the hundred-and- That'svery true. One dilemma for my generation some musicians on stage that Kraft involved. was a certain uneasiness with an environment in which what was appropriatein terms of style was KN negatively defined, based on taboos, things one How did you decide on Ur's instrumentation - was not allowed to do. We strongly felt that this with , cello, bass, and piano? was a rather awkward creative environment, and it might just be a difference of language, but we ML wanted an environment that presented options I originally conceived of a more traditionalcham- that were allowed. ber ensemble: , clarinet, violin, piano, cello - essentially the Pierrotensemble. But in this case, JC it felt too classical. Replacing the flute with the Instead of Victorian prohibitions. double bass created an imbalance in the ensemble that perfectly matched the work's nature. Now ML I've spoken so much about classicism, but Ur is a Exactly! work that is concerned less with balance; it's a work that leans. Sometimes people call it aggres- JC sive, but I don't think of music as aggressive, not 'Ur' is a German prefix denoting something that in my vocabulary; I don't understand what that

THE MUSICAL TIMES / AUTUMN 2000 37 means. But it's definitely a sound portrait that is say, of symmetry. Sometimes symmetry itself is skewed, starting with the presence of the clarinet, beautiful, of its very nature. which is unlike the string instruments but shares their material. Again, I started with the idea of a KN small group of instruments suggesting the sound And again, harmony itself does not take prece- of a large ensemble, so it necessarily pushes the dence over other parameters. instrumental expression in that sense; it's a piece for virtuosos, and the electronics lend a kick. ML Well, hierarchyis a very complicatedissue. On this ML point, one of the very beautiful examples is Ligeti, I wanted the clarinet to be fully integrated with who is the composer who very cleverly avoided the other instruments, a kind of chameleon that harmony in a sense, with wonderful works like plays many different roles to simulate the sound Atmospheresand Apparitions.Of course it sounds a of a large ensemble. This is one of my favorite bit contradictory,but in producing those clouds challenges in writing chamber music. Steamboat of pitches, harmony was, very elegantly,avoided. Bill Junior went even further;I was trying to cre- ate the illusion of a full orchestra with just two KN instruments. They desperately try to do every- It was a byproduct. thing in their power to create this brief illusion, and are utterly restricted. ML Absolutely. Ultimately, even Ligeti had to resur- JC face, with the Horn Trio,for example. Over the last The sense I have with Ur is that the composition few years harmony has regained its importance in occupies itself with rebalancing this essential im- my music as well as becoming a crucial expres- balance. I don't want to suggest that your music sive device. For me, it is usually determined pre- is schematic, but I'm wondering if this reflects a compositionally, and working within a harmonic compositional practice for you, the notion of set- framework has enabled me to treat other aspects ting up a situation of imbalance and composing of expression very freely. out the asymmetry. Yet again, we are at the notion of imbalance, a slightly contradictory way of working with mu- ML sic: more and more, I like to fix harmony,as a sort That'sa very good point. It is something that has of identification of a certain work; in spite of its always fascinatedme. I have a similar sense in the prominent role in composition, it is mainly there recording studio, too, where I feel that a record to free me up to attend to other aspects that might should not necessarily replicate the live perfor- be even more interesting. So there you go: I'm mance, but interpret it. I like discs, again, that deeply concerned with harmony,and yet it is the lean in this sense, even literally: being left-hand- aspect of composition that is the most predeter- ed, I prefer the sound learning to the left. But yes, mined methodically I find inspiration in learning, inclining, unbal- anced starting points. KN It's less intuitive? KN Do you use symmetry? ML In some ways, yes, in the sense that it usually ML plays the role of the abstract model with which I I do use it, particularlyin building harmonies: I begin conceiving of a piece. like symmetrical pitch assemblages, sometimes combined with a purely auditory collection un- KN derneath - literally underneath, emphasising the And yet it is expressive, in that it's formal and bass as a distinctive level. One of the most im- even functional. portant lessons I learned was from Berio, who re- marked that the orchestra remains a hierarchy - ML soprano, alto, tenor,bass - which, however simple Yes. I've been thinking very much about func- an idea, was provocative for me. tional harmonies in an essentially atonal world. I'm jealous of composers like Wagner and - why JC not? - Mahler, for whom the building blocks of Joshua Cody and Another imbalance? were as well as lex- Kirk Noreen are harmony grammatical simply directors of the ical. It'sobviously quite a difficulty to create your New York-based ML own functional syntax in the post-tonal era. But Ensemble Sospeso. In a way. But I'm not as afraid as Stravinskywas, this is the subject of an entire seminar.

38 THE MUSICAL TIMES / AUTUMN 2000