Volume III Tuesday No. 14 8th August, 1961

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

DEWAN RA' AYAT (HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES)

OFFICIAL REPORT

CONTENTS

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS [Col. 1395] BILLS: The Election Offences (Amendment) Bill [Col. 1405] The Excise Bill [Col. 1423] The Advocates and Solicitors (Amendment) Bill [Col. 1442] The Financial Procedure (Amendment) Bill [Col. 1444] The Weekly Holidays (Amendment) Bill [Col. 1451] The War Risks (Goods) Insurance Fund (Winding Up) Bill [Col. 1453] The Employment (Amendment) Bill [Col. 1454] The Disposal of Funds (State of ) Bill [Col. 1462] The Kidnapping Bill (Suspension of Standing Order) (Motion) [Col. 1464] The Kidnapping Bill [Col. 1465] ADJOURNMENT SPEECH: Squatter Housing [Col. 1487]

DI-CHETAK DI-JABATAN CHETAK KERAJAAN OLEH THOR BENG CHONG, PEMANGKU PENCHETAK KERAJAAN PERSEKUTUAN TANAH MELAYU 1962 DEWAN RA'AYAT (HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES) Official Report

Third Session of the First Dewan Ra'ayat

Tuesday, 8th August, 1961 The House met at Ten o'clock a.m.

PRESENT: The Honourable Mr. Speaker, DATO' HAJI MOHAMED NOAH BIN OMAR, S.P.M.J., D.P.M.B., P.I.S., J.P. the Prime Minister and Minister of External Affairs, Y.T.M. PUTRA AL-HAJ, K.O.M. (Kuala ). the Deputy Prime Minister, Minister of Defence and Minister of Rural Development, TUN HAJI ABDUL RAZAK BIN DATO' HUSSAIN, S.M.N. (Pekan). the Minister of Internal Security and Minister of the Interior, DATO' DR. ISMAIL BIN DATO' HAJI ABDUL RAHMAN, P.M.N. (Johor Timor). the Minister of Finance, ENCHE' , J.P. (Melaka Tengah). the Minister of Works, Posts and Telecommunications, DATO' V. T. SAMBANTHAN, P.M.N. (Sungai Siput). the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives, ENCHE' ABDUL AZIZ BIN ISHAK (Kuala Langat). the Minister of Transport, DATO' SARDON BIN HAJI JUBIR, P.M.N. (Pontian Utara). the Minister of Health and Social Welfare, DATO' , P.M.N. (Ulu ). the Minister of Commerce and Industry, ENCHE' MOHAMED KHIR BIN JOHARI (Kedah Tengah). the Minister of Education, ENCHE' ABDUL RAHMAN BIN HAJI TALIB (Kuantan). the Assistant Minister of Education, ENCHE' ABDUL HAMID KHAN BIN HAJI SAKHAWAT ALI KHAN, J.M.N., J.P. (Batang Padang). the Assistant Minister of Rural Development, TUAN HAJI ABDUL KHALID BIN AWANG OSMAN (Kota Star Utara). the Assistant Minister of Labour, ENCHE' V. MANICKA- VASAGAM, J.M.N., P.J.K. (Klang). the Assistant Minister of the Interior, ENCHE' MOHAMED ISMAIL BIN MOHAMED YUSOF (Jerai). ENCHE' ABDUL RAUF BIN A. RAHMAN (Krian Laut). 1391 8 AUGUST 1961 1392 #

The Honourable TUAN HAJI ABDULLAH BIN HAJI ABDUL RAOF (Kuala Kangsar). TUAN HAJI ABDULLAH BIN HAJI MOHD. SALLEH, A.M.N., P.I.S. (Segamat Utara). TUAN HAJI AHMAD BIN ABDULLAH (Kota Bharu Hilir). ENCHE' AHMAD BIN ARSHAD, A.M.N. (Muar Utara). ENCHE' AHMAD BOESTAMAM (Setapak). ENCHE' AHMAD BIN HAJI YUSOF, PJ.K. (Krian Darat). TUAN HAJI AZAHARI BIN HAJI IBRAHIM (Kubang Pasu Barat). ENCHE' AZIZ BIN ISHAK (Muar Dalam). DR. BURHANUDDIN BIN MOHD. NOOR (Besut). ENCHE' CHAN CHONG WEN, A.M.N. (Kluang Selatan). ENCHE' CHAN SIANG SUN (Bentong). ENCHE' CHAN SWEE HO (Ulu Kinta). ENCHE' CHAN YOON ONN (Kampar). ENCHE' CHIN SEE YIN ( Timor). ENCHE' V. DAVID (Bungsar). DATIN FATIMAH BINTI HAJI HASHIM, P.M.N. (Jitra-Padang Terap). ENCHE' GEH CHONG KEAT (Penang Utara). ENCHE' HAMZAH BIN ALANG, A.M.N. (Kapar). ENCHE' HANAFI BIN MOHD. YUNUS, A.M.N. (Kulim Utara). ENCHE' HARUN BIN ABDULLAH, A.M.N. (Baling). ENCHE' HARUN BIN PILUS (Trengganu Tengah). TUAN HAJI HASSAN BIN HAJI AHMAD (Tumpat). ENCHE' HASSAN BIN MANSOR (Melaka Selatan). ENCHE' HUSSEIN BIN TO' MUDA HASSAN (Raub). ENCHE' HUSSEIN BIN MOHD. NOORDIN, A.M.N., PJ.K. (Park). TUAN HAJI HUSSAIN RAHIMI BIN HAJI SAMAN (Kota Bharu Hulu). ENCHE' IBRAHIM BIN ABDUL RAHMAN (Seberang Tengah). ENCHE' ISMAIL BIN IDRIS (Penang Selatan). ENCHE' KANG KOCK SENG (Batu Pahat). ENCHE' K. KARAM SINGH (Damansara). CHE' KHADIJAH BINTI MOHD. SIDEK (Dungun). ENCHE' KHONG KOK YAT (Batu Gajah). ENCHE' (Kluang Utara). ENCHE' LEE SECK FUN (Tanjong Malim). ENCHE' LEE SIOK YEW, A.M.N. (Sepang). ENCHE' LIM JOO KONG (Alor Star). DR. LIM SWEE AUN, J.P. (Larut Selatan). ENCHE' LIU YOONG PENG (Rawang). ENCHE' T. MAHIMA SINGH, J.P. (Port Dickson). ENCHE' MOHAMED BIN UJANG (Jelebu-Jempol). ENCHE' MOHAMED ABBAS BIN AHMAD (Hilir ).

# 1393 8 AUGUST 1961 1394

The Honourable ENCHE' MOHAMED ASRI BIN HAJI MUDA (Pasir Puteh). ENCHE' MOHAMED DAHARI BIN HAJI MOHD. ALI (Kuala Selangor). ENCHE' MOHAMED NOR BIN MOHD. DAHAN (Ulu Perak). DATO' MOHAMED HANIFAH BIN HAJI ABDUL GHANI, PJ.K. (Pasir Mas Hulu). ENCHE' MOHAMED SULONG BIN MOHD. ALI, J.M.N. (Lipis). ENCHE' MOHAMED YUSOF BIN MAHMUD, A.M.N. (Temerloh). TUAN HAJI MOKHTAR BIN HAJI ISMAIL (Perlis Selatan). NIK MAN BIN NIK MOHAMED (Pasir Mas Hilir). ENCHE' NG ANN TECK (Batu). ENCHE' OTHMAN BIN ABDULLAH (Tanah Merah). ENCHE' OTHMAN BIN ABDULLAH, A.M.N. (Perlis Utara). TUAN HAJI REDZA BIN HAJI MOHD. SAID (Rembau-Tampin). ENCHE' SEAH TENG NGIAB (Muar Pantai). ENCHE' D. R. SEENIVASAGAM (Ipoh). ENCHE' S. P. SEENIVASAGAM (Menglembu). TUAN SYED ESA BIN ALWEE, J.M.N., S.M.J., P.I.S. (Batu Pahat Dalam). TUAN SYED HASHIM BIN SYED AJAM, A.M.N., P.J.K. (Sabak Bernam). ENCHE' TAN CHENG BEE, J.P. (Bagan). ENCHE' TAN PHOCK KIN (Tanjong). ENCHE' TAN TYE CHEK (Kulim-Bandar Bharu). TENGKU BESAR INDERA RAJA IBNI AL-MARHUM SULTAN IBRAHIM, D.K., P.M.N. (Ulu Kelantan). DATO' TEOH CHZE CHONG, D.P.M.J., J.P. (Segamat Selatan). ENCHE' TOO JOON HING (Telok Anson). ENCHE' V. VEERAPPEN (Seberang Selatan). WAN SULAIMAN BIN WAN TAM, PJ.K. (Kota Star Selatan). ,, WAN YAHYA BIN HAJI WAN MOHAMED (Kemaman). ,, ENCHE' YAHYA BIN HAJI AHMAD (Bagan Datoh). „ ENCHE' YEOH TAT BENG (Bruas). ,, ENCHE' YONG WOO MING (Sitiawan). „ PUAN HJJAH ZAIN BINTI SULAIMAN, J.M.N., P.I.S. (Pontian Selatan). ENCHE' ZULKIFLEE BIN MUHAMMAD (Bachok).

ABSENT: The Honpurable DATO' SULEIMAN BIN DATO' HAJI ABDUL RAHMAN, P.M.N. (Minister without Portfolio) (Muar Selatan) (on leave). ,, the Minister of Labour, ENCHE' BAHAMAN BIN SAMSUDIN (Kuala Pilah). the Assistant Minister of Information and Broadcasting, TUAN SYED JA'AFAR ALBAR BIN HASAN ALBAR, J.M.N. (Johor Tenggara). 1395 8 AUGUST 1961 1396

The Honourable the Assistant Minister of Commerce and Industry, ENCHE' CHEAH THEAM SWEE (Bukit Bintang). ENCHE' ABDUL GHANI BIN ISHAK, A.M.N. (Melaka Utara). ENCHE' ABDUL SAMAD BIN OSMAN (Sungei Patani). ENCHE' AHMAD BIN MOHAMED SHAH, S.M.J. (Johor Bahru Barat). TUAN HAJI AHMAD BIN SAAID (Seberang Utara). TUAN HAJI HASAN ADLI BIN HAJI ARSHAD (Kuala Treng- ganu Utara). ENCHE' LIM KEAN SIEW (Dato Kramat). DATO' ONN BIN JA'AFAR, D.K., D.P.MJ. (Kuala Trengganu Selatan). ENCHE' QUEK KAI DONG, J.P. (Seremban Barat). ENCHE' TAJUDIN BIN ALI, PJ.K. (Larut Utara). ENCHE' TAN KEE GAK (Bandar Melaka). WAN MUSTAPHA BIN HAJI ALI (Kelantan Hilir). TUAN HAJI ZAKARIA BIN HAJI MOHD. TAIB (Langat).

IN ATTENDANCE: The Honourable the Minister of Justice, TUN , S.M.N. PRAYERS the hospital is concerned, there is definitely no breeding place for flies. (Mr. Speaker in the Chair) Some of the causes of the fly nuisance can be attributed to cattle ORAL ANSWERS TO straying into the hospital grounds, QUESTIONS rearing of cattle and poultry and vege­ General Hospital, table gardening in the vicinity of the hospital. During the first four months 1. Enche' V. David asks the Minister of this year, 13 heads of cattle straying of Health and Social Welfare if he is into the hospital compound have been aware that Ward 16 of the General impounded by the police. More Hospital, Kuala Lumpur, is full of flies stringent measures are being taken and that a sticker is being hung over jointly by the hospital and municipal every bed to trap the flies, and if so, authorities to abate the fly nuisance. why no positive steps are taken to prevent the breeding of flies in the Enche' V. David: The Minister has grounds of the hospital. misled the House. Well, I want him to admit that there were stickers hung The Minister of Health and Social to detract flies, and that those measures Welfare (Dato' Ong Yoke Lin): Mr. have been taken only after my question Speaker, Sir, I am sure the House was submitted. appreciates that the Honourable Mem­ ber is again guilty of gross exaggeration. Dato' Ong Yoke Lin: I think I Occasionally there have been some have already answered the question. flies, and a few strips of fly paste paper has been placed in strategic points in the ward in question. Positive measures Bungsar Hospital, Kuala Lumpur have been taken to rid the hospital of 2. Enche' V. David asks the Minister fly nuisance. For example, for the past of Health and Social Welfare whether two years a team consisting of a Public the P.W.D. Technical Officers con­ Health Overseer and three labourers demned the Bungsar Hospital Building have been employed full time on anti- or it is the sole decision of the Minister fly measures in the hospital. As far as himself. 1397 8 AUGUST 1961 1398 Dato' Ong Yoke Lin: Mr. Speaker, this year. The number of persons Sir, the decision to evacuate the displaced is also given in the Report Bungsar Hospital was taken by me in which says that only 250 were unable February, 1961, after consultation with to find alternative employment within the Technical Officers of the Public a reasonable period of time. Works Department and Senior Officers From 1st January, 1960 to 31st of the Ministry of Health and the March, 1961, 47,204! acres more were Ministry of Works. fragmented. During this 15-month Enche' V. David: What was the period only 125 of the workers con· report of the Technical Officers? cerned could not find employment within a reasonable length of time. Dato' Ong Yoke Lin: I said I con· These 125 did not register themselves suited the Technical Officers. at our Exchanges and since there is always a shortage of skilled workers in Enche' V. David: I want to know this field it can be assumed that they what was the report? Did they con­ have found employment after a time. demn the building? Sir, I just want a reply-Yes or No. Sir, however, in accordance with the recommendation made by the Sub­ Dato' Ong Yoke Lin: I said that division of Estates Committee in its I had consulted the Technical Officers Interim Report, a detailed survey of and they agreed that my decision was the extent and effects of sub-division in order. is being done by the Economics Enche' v. David: That means the Department of the University of decision was made by the Minister Malaya. The Government expects the and not by the Technical Officers. report of the results of the survey to be submitted some time in November this Dato' Ong Yoke Lin: Yes, Sir. year. Fragmentation of Rubber Estates-Statistics Enche' V. Veerappen: The Assistant Minister said that it is not obligatory 3. Enche' V. David asks the Minister on the part of the owners who fragment of Labour to state the acreage of to give the figures. Would the rubber estates which have been frag­ Assistant Minister say whether his mented up till 31st March, 1961, Ministry would see to it that it is giving the number of persons who lost obligatory for the owners to give the their employment thereby. figures? The Assistant Minister of Labour Enche' V. Manickavasagam: I have (Enche' V. Manickavasagam): Mr. just said that we are waiting for the Speaker, Sir, since it is not obligatory Report and we will consider that. on the part of the owner or anyone to report on the fragmentation of any Enche' V. Veerappen: Would you estate, it is not possible to give an agree that certain of the figures that accurate figure concerning acreage or are quoted in the Interim Report sub­ the number of persons displaced mitted by the Committee are them· following fragmentation. The Labour selves not very accurate. Department, however, enforces various legislations on estates of 25 acres and Enche' V. Manickavasagam: It is a over and a rough estimate of the Report made by a Committee and I problems caused by fragmentation is can't comment on that. .Iav.>wn. The extent of fragmentation of Teachers--Medical Attention estates of 25 acres and over for the 4. Enche' v. Veerappen asks the period 1957-1959, can be found in Minister of Education to state why ,;L paragraph. ~ .of the Interim Report of medical attention which is available to the Sub-d1vts1on of Estates Committee other Government employees is not which was tabled as Command Paper given to teachers under the Unified No. 15 of 1961 in this House in April Service Scheme. 1399 8 AUGUST 1961 1400 The Assistant Minister of Educa­ operating on their own in buildings tion (Enche' Abdul Hamid Khan bin separate from other schools. Baji Sakhawat Ali Khan): Sir, this is because they are not Government Enche' V. Veerappen: Mr. Speaker, employees. Sir, what I mean by "model" is that a secondary school teaching entirely in Secondary Education in Malay the Malay medium. Would there be such a school and when would such a 5. Enche' v. Veerappen asks the school be established? Minister of Education to state: Enche' Abdul Hamid Khan: Sir, I (a) the steps being taken to train have mentioned that it is expected by Malay School Teachers to the end of 1962 or early 1963, when teach in Malay Secondary there will be several Malay medium Schools, schools. (b) the progress with regard to the use of Malay Text Books in Enche' V. Veerappen: How many Malay Secondary Schools, and Malay school teachers have acquired extra qualifications to enable them to (c) when does he expect to have at teach in secondary schools with Malay least one model Malay Secon­ dary School teaching entirely medium? in Malay. Enche' Abdul Hamid Khan: Sir, I Enche' Abdul Hamid Khan: Mr. need notice of that question. Speaker, Sir, the reply to (a) is as follows: Detentions under the Internal Security Act Malay School Teachers are acade­ 6. Enche' Too Joon Hing asks the mically suited and professionally trained Minister of Internal Security to state : for teaching in primary schools. Every (a) the number of persons who have encouragement, however, is given to been detained by Government these teachers to improve their qualifi­ under the Internal Security cations and those subsequently found Act, and suitable academically and professionally are given the opportunity to teach in (b) the number of such detainees Malay secondary schools. who have been released by Government. In reply to (b), I am glad to be able to state that the production of Malay The Minister of Internal Security text books for use in the Malay secon­ (Dato' Dr. Ismail bin Dato' Haji Abdul dary schools has been substantial. Rahman): Sir, the total number of persons including surrendered enemy For the Lower Secondary Classes, personnel who have been detained except for History, text books for all under the Internal Security Act, 1960, subjects have been made available. is 108, of which 67 have previously For the Upper Secondary Classes been detained under the Emergency text books for the following subjects, Regulations. Science, Mathematics, Geography and The answer to ( b): the number of History, to complete the existing series such detainees who have been released will be ready for use by the pupils in is 42. time for the Malay medium F.M.C.E. examination in 1962. Merger In regard to (c), it is not fully under­ 7. Enche' V. Veerappen (under Statid- stood as to what is meant by the word ing Order 24 (2)) asks the Prime "model". However, if by "model" is Minister to state whether he has meant schools accommodated in received details concerning the merger separate buildings. then it is thought of and the Federation from that by the end of 1962 or early in 1963 either the Singapore Government or the ~, there will be several Malay medium British Government; if so, what are secondary schools in the Federation these details, and if not, whether he will 1401 8 AUGUST 1961 1402 explain what is meant by "merger with House: it is still more difficult to Singapore". consider the details of talks that might be held later, tentative or otherwise. The Prime Minister: Mr. Speaker, Sir, in fact, no details of the merger Enche' Ahmad Boestamam: Mana- have been worked out at the moment. kah yang lebeh dahulu Perdana Menteri The only thing that has emerged from berunding dengan wakil Kerajaan this is only an informal proposal, but British atau mengumumkan fasal if this proposal is agreed to by the kapada wartawan2. Singapore Government, or this Govern­ ment, then we could sit together and The Prime Minister: Tuan Yang di- work out the details. I can't at this Pertua, yang sa-benar-nya apa yang stage give any more information than saya sebutkan kapada wartawan2 lebeh that. daripada itu-lah yang pehak Kerajaan British telah pun setuju hendak chakap 8. Enche' V. Veerappen (under Stand­ perkara ta' resmi di-atas hal itu. ing Order 24 (2)) asks the Prime Minister to state whether he has any 10. Enche' S. P. Seenivasagam asks arrangements with the Brunei Govern­ the Prime Minister to state whether ment or the Sultan of Brunei regarding Government intends to enter into the "Malaysian Merger" and, if so, negotiations with the Government of what are the details of the merger Singapore or the British Government proposals, tentative or otherwise. for the merger of the State of Singapore with the Federation of Malaya, if so, The Prime Minister: Mr. Speaker, when; if not, to state the reasons. Sir, there are no arrangements with the Brunei Government. I only sounded The Prime Minister: Mr. Speaker, His Highness the Sultan whether he Sir, I have already expressed the would agree to form a merger with the Federation's willingness to a form of Federation Government, and I can say closer co-operation with Singapore, and at this moment that the idea appears to if this is acceptable to them, the only be acceptable to His Highness. possible thing tq do is to arrange for a meeting between the Government of Enche' Ahmad Boestamam: Ada- Singapore and the British Government. kah Kerajaan Persekutuan bermaksud The British Government has not given hendak mengadakan perundingan ber- any formal indication of their willing­ kenaan dengan ini dengan Kerajaan ness to talk at this moment. I am sure, Brunei. on the other hand, that the Singapore The Prime Minister: Tuan Yang di- Government is ready to hold a talk at Pertua, tetap. any time with the Federation Govern­ ment. When I have a clearer indication 9. Enche' V. Veerappen (under Stan­ on what is going to happen, I will be ding Order 24 (2)) asks the Prime very glad to report back to this House. Minister to state whether he has had talks with the British Government 11. Enche' S. P. Seenivasagam asks regarding the "Malaysian Merger" the Prime Minister to state whether it is proposals, and if so, what is the out­ the intention of Government to come of the talks and the details, negotiate with the British Government tentative or otherwise. for the merger of the , Brunei and Borneo territories with the Fede­ The Prime Minister: Mr. Speaker, ration of Malaya before these territories Sir, as I said just now with regard to attain independence and are in a all this question of merger, I only had position to exercise their right of self- an exploratory talk with representatives determination. of Her Majesty's Government of the United Kingdom. Consequently, the The Prime Minister: Mr. Speaker, outcome of the conversation, which is Sir, the same applies to the question of purely of an informal and exploratory merger with Sarawak and Borneo and nature, cannot yet be revealed to this if it is necessary, of course—where all 1403 8 AUGUST 1961 1404 » parties have expressed their will­ Wang Pembangunan Luar Bandar untok ingness—to hold a talk, we will be Ranchangan Dalam Negeri2 only too glad to have such a talk. I 12. Enche' Zulkiflee bin Muhammad cannot at this moment see how these bertanya kapada Timbalan Perdana territories of Sarawak, Borneo and Menteri: Brunei can be given independence, before the merger because these (a) bagaimana-kah chara pemberian wang bagi Kemajuan Luar territories are not yet ready. It is hoped 2 that independence will come with the Bandar kapada ranchangan merger. They will be given the same sa-sabuah negeri? Ada-kah status in the Federation as the other dengan chara terus kapada States. Jawatan-Kuasa Daerah Ke­ majuan Luar Bandar atau Enche' S. P. Seenivasagam: Sir, pun menerusi Jawatan-Kuasa does that mean that the Government Kemajuan Luar Bandar of the Federation intends to decide Negeri; whether Borneo and Sarawak and the (b) berapa banyak-kah permintaan other territories should form part of yang telah di-beri kapada this country before the inhabitants tiap2 negeri bagi tahun ini there are able to express their views at dan berapa banyak-kah yang the polls? telah di-berikan; The Prime Minister: Mr. Speaker, (c) menurut dasar apa-kah Menteri Sir, there is no intention on the part of Kemajuan Luar Bandar this Government to colonise those memberi peruntokan Kema­ territories at all. We can only accept juan Luar Bandar dalam them from the desire and of their own menyusun keutamaan di- freewill to join us. antara ranchangan2 itu? Enche' S. P. Seenivasagam: Sir, would that mean then that this Govern­ The Deputy Prime Minister (Tun ment will not take over those terri­ Hj. Abdul Razak bin Dato' Hussain): tories as a result any deal with the Tuan Yang di-Pertua, wang Pem­ British Government? bangunan Luar Bandar biasa-nya di- untokan kapada Kerajaan Negeri bagi The Prime Minister: Well, Mr. ranchangan2 yang di-persetujukan oleh Speaker, Sir, we will only be happy to Kerajaan Persekutuan. Wang itu di- take over these territories with whoever dahulukan oleh Kerajaan Negeri we deal. At the moment the U.K. kemudian di-bayar balek oleh Kera­ Government is in control of these jaan Persekutuan. Bagi sa-tengah2 territories and if by an Order-in- ranchangan bantuan ada-lah di-bagi Council, I presume, it decides to do so, terus kapada Jajahan2, biasa-nya di- and if the people of these territories are perbuat pada masa lawatan saya sendiri willing to join us, we will only be too bila di-dapati ranchangan itu mustahak happy to welcome them. dan patut di-jalankan dengan segera dan wang-nya akan di-sediakan. Enche' S. P. Seenivasagam: How does the Federation Government intend Berkenaan dengan soal bahagian to find out whether the people of those kedua, tidak dapat hendak di-beri territories, as distinct from the British keterangan pada masa ini kerana mem­ Government, would like to join the belanjakan wang di-atas ranchangan2 Federation? ini, Kerajaan negeri ada-lah di-minta membelanjakan dahulu dan lepas dari- The Prime Minister: Yes, Mr. pada itu boleh-lah di-minta bayar Speaker, Sir, it is for them to say. If balek daripada Kerajaan Persekutuan. the Honourable Member would like to Terutama sa-kali ranchangan2 saperti tour the territories to find out that for Group Settlement dan juga jalan2 raya, himself, I will be glad to make the tanaman, hutan dan haiwan atau necessary arrangement for him to go veterinary semua-nya Kerajaan Negeri (Laughter). membelanjakan dahulu. Apabila telah

0 1405 8 AUGUST 1961 1406 selesai baharu-lah di-minta bayar balek dered as a drafting error and it is kapada Kerajaan Persekutuan. Dasar intended to put it right. bahagian wang itu ada-lah menurut Sir, I beg to move. ranchangan2 yang di-kehendaki dan bagaimana mustahak-nya ranchangan Tun Haji Abdul Razak: Sir, I beg itu dan kebolehan negeri melaksanakan to second the motion. ranchangan itu, umpama-nya per­ untokan wang tidak-lah di-beri kapada Enche' Zulkiflee bin Muhammad Kerajaan Negeri Kelantan dan Treng­ (Bachok): Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya ganu bagi ranchangan tanah. Kerajaan bangun membangkang Undang2 ini. dua buah negeri itu tidak menerima Sebab Undang2 ini bertujuan hendak Ranchangan2 Tanah Kebangsaan Kera­ menaikkan perbelanjaan yang boleh jaan Persekutuan. di-belanjakan bagi sa-saorang chalon di­ dalam pilehan raya hingga tidak lebeh daripada $10,000 bagi pilehan raya BILLS Dewan Ra'ayat dan $7,500 bagi pilehan THE ELECTION OFFENCES raya Dewan Negeri dan $5,000 bagi (AMENDMENT) BILL pilehan raya tempatan dan sa-terus-nya $1,500 bagi pilehan raya Majlis Tem­ Second Reading patan. Tuan Yang di-Pertua, di-dalam The Prime Minister: Mr. Speaker, satu pilehan raya tujuan yang besar Sir, I beg to move that a Bill intituled daripada mengadakan-nya ada-lah "an Act to amend the Election Offences untok mengetahui fikiran dan pendapat Ordinance, 1954" be read a second ra'ayat tentang siapa-kah yang di­ time. fikirkan-nya patut di-pileh-nya di-dalam mewakili ra'ayat di-tempat itu. The Bill seeks to bring about two changes. The first is to raise the Tuan Yang di-Pertua, kita hendak maximum expenses which can be mengamalkan demokrasi, hendak me­ incurred by candidates as election ngamalkan supaya ra'ayat itu bebas expenses. This increase is recommended, berfikir dan juga fikiran-nya itu-lah in the light of experience, by the menentukan chorak sa-suatu pentad­ Election Commission. It has been biran sama ada di-peringkat negara atau found that the present maximum peringkat negeri atau pun di-peringkat expenses are too small and that a more tempatan. Tetapi, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, realistic figure should be reached. dengan mengizinkan perbelanjaan ber­ Therefore, it is proposed to increase tambah bany~k bagi di-belanja oleh sa­ the maxima in respect of elections to saorang chalon di-dalam peringkat the Dewan Ra'ayat and Legislative yang tertentu maka wang-lah akan Assemblies, and also to Local Autho­ menjadi faktor yang besar bagi menen­ rities and Local Councils. tukan fikiran dan pendapat ra'ayat itu sendiri. Dan kita tahu di-dalam politik The other change which the Bill bukan-lah wang yang menjadi soal seeks to bring about is to abolish the tetapi pendapat ra'ayat. Tuan Yang alternative maximum expenses based di-Pertua, kita telah melalui dua kali on per capita amount in respect of pilehan raya bagi Dewan ini yang each elector. It has been found that the dahulu sa-bagai Majlis Undangan .\ total arrived at by this alternative Persekutuan Tanah Melayu. Di­ method never amount to even half of dalam dua kali itu, kali yang per· the maximum sum permitted in respect tama kawasan pilehan raya sa-banyak of various kinds of elections. It is, 50 buah kawasan Persekutuan Tanah therefore, considered that this alterna­ Melayu ini telah di-dapati chalon2 itu tive maximum expenses should be menjalankan kempin, menjalankan abolished. rayuan undi dan menjalankan usaha Further, there is another small bagi membolehkan dia memasoki Maj­ <::: amendment to the definition of the lis Undangan Persekutuan Tanah word "constituency" in section 2 of the Melayu dahulu dan perbelanjaan-nya Ordinance. The original one is consi- hanya di-bawah $5,000 sahaja. 1407 8 AUGUST 1961 1408 • Tuan Yang di-Pertua, apabila Dewan dengan wang dan wang yang menentu- Ra'ayat ini dan kawasan yang dahulu kan kapada semua hal, maka saya 52 buah telah di-besarkan menjadi 104 membantah Rang Undang2 yang kawasan dan bererti telah kechil ka­ di-kemukakan ini. wasan itu dengan sendiri-nya. Di-dalam mengechilkan-nya yang lebeh penting- Encfae' D. R. Seenivasagam (Ipoh): nya kita tidak pun menukarkan dari- Mr. Speaker, Sir, the present Bill pada $5,000 dan alham dullillah before us is for the purpose of increas­ nampak-nya perjalanan pilehan raya ing the sum of money which a itu siapa pehak yang menang, menang- candidate or his agent will be allowed lah dan siapa yang kalah, kalah-lah dia. to spend at elections in this country, Dengan asas ini nampak-lah kapada right from this House to the lowest kita bahawa tiada-lah satu yang mesti administrative levels of Local Councils. dan memustahakkan bahawa Undang2 Sir, I would agree that the former ini hendak di-pinda dan hendak di- maxima allowed were insufficient. tinggikan perbelanjaan-nya. Boleh jadi, But we must bear in mind that during Tuan Yang di-Pertua, Kerajaan men- the days of the former maxima, dapati bahawa dengan menambahkan canvassing was allowed wholesale— wang sa-banyak $10,000 bagi per- canvassing was allowed throughout the belanjaan pilehan raya untok Dewan period from nomination to polling and Ra'ayat ini Kerajaan memandang akan on polling day itself. Mr. Speaker, Sir, melebehkan kuat-kuasa atau melebeh- has the Government considered the kan usaha bagi sa-orang chalon bagi effect of the no-canvassing ban which mendapatkan undi. Ini dapat kita was recently enforced by the Elections tengok dengan $5,000 pun nesbah Commission at the Local Council polls? pengundi yang mengundi dalam pilehan All of us have participated in raya ini tidak-lah kurang dan saya one way or another at these polls, tidak fikir dengan menambahkan and I do not think it can be disputed ia-itu bertambah $10,000 sebab yang that the new regulations passed by mengurangkan dalam pilehan raya ini the Elections Commission reduce tidak sama sa-kali kekurangan wang, the expenses by a candidate or his tetapi ia tidak memuaskan atau agent by a very large sum of money, sa-bagai-nya. because canvassing was not allowed on the polling day. If you follow Jadi, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, tinggal these regulations, then it is obvious satu hujah yang hendak di-pakai oleh that you dc not have to spend Kerajaan ia-itu oleh kerana pada so much money as in the past, and it is hakikat-nya bahawa perbelanjaan yang fact also that a considerable sum of di-belanjakan dalam pilehan raya ini money is saved in respect of information lebeh daripada 10,000 ringgit sebab itu centres which political organisations apa-lah guna-nya kita gunakan $5,000. have to put up for the assistance of Tuan Yang di-Pertua, pilehan raya electors who come to vote; and again sama-lah saperti manusia, kalau makan you are restricted to a limited number sadikit pun kenyang, makan banyak pun of information centres with a limited kenyang. Apabila di-ajar makan number of helpers sitting in those areas; banyak, perut-nya itu expend. Dan again your expenses are cut down by kalau hari ini kita bebaskan pilehan the fact that these same regulations will raya membolehkan sa-saorang itu dalam enlarge the distance from polling sta­ pilehan raya kapada $10,000 maka tions within which supporters can, if besok ia hendak $20,000 tetapi, Tuan I may use the word, hang around. Yang di-Pertua, ini akan menukarkan . Mr. Speaker, Sir, these regulations, democracy kapada pentadbiran dan of course, have been applied only at pertimbangan kapada satu chara ia-itu Local Council level. But is the Govern­ kewangan menjadikan factor bagi me- ment aware that the Elections Commis­ nentukan kedudokkan pilehan raya sion is considering, I say is considering dalam sa-sabuah negeri itu. Ber- whether these regulations should or dasarkan ini supaya jangan meng- should not be extended to meet Par­ hanyutkan negeri ini kapada democracy liamentary, State and all elections in 1409 8 AUGUST 1961 1410 this country, and that towards that end pilehan raya ini bererti bahawa sa- the Elections Commission has sent out orang chalon yang datang daripada circular letters to all political organisa- satu2 parti itu akan mengira ia-itu tions and other bodies asking for kalau sa-kira-nya chalon yang ada 100 comments to be sent in, so that it may orang pada masa akan datang dan tiap2 make appropriate recommendations sa-orang itu boleh berbelanja $10,000 after consultation with the Government maka jumlah-nya akan berpuloh2 ratus of the land? ribu ringgit. Kalau parti itu parti yang hidup-nya sa-mata2 daripada yuran Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would confess saperti mana parti yang di-dukong oleh here that when the ban came out, I ra'ayat, maka saya rasa tidak-lah ada myself was bit apprehensive, and I satu parti yang boleh bertanding dalam thought the poll might be low, I thought pilehan raya kalau sa-mata2 parti itu it would not work; I did express my di-biyai daripada yuran atau pun dari- fears, but having seen it work and pada derma yang tertentu, maka having seen that there was a polling oleh kerana ia hendak menang average of 70 per cent, I think it will dalam pilehan raya dan oleh kerana ia work very satisfactorily and it will hendak mendapat sokongan dalam save a lot of hard feelings between party pilehan raya maka parti ini supporters of whom naturally there will boleh jadi pada masa akan datang be large numbers hanging around. I, di-kehendaki juga bertanding dalam for myself, would support that these pilehan raya dan akan jadi-lah parti regulations be extended to all elections itu bernama "Sayap Kelima" dari- in this country, and if that is done, I pada kuasa luar—kuasa dunia. Saya am sure the Honourable mover of this maksudkan ini "Sayap Kelima" ia-itu motion will agree that, perhaps, this parti itu akan menjadi alat kapada Bill should be referred to a Select kaum capitalist luar negeri. Kalau Committee and for consideration at the America hendak menguasai negeri ini, proper stage with the Elections Com- maka akan ada-lah kaum capitalist dari mission. However, if those regulations Amerika Sharikat untok membelanjai are not extended to meet Parliamentary parti itu, kalau parti itu sanggup mem- and State Elections, then of course, I beri jaminan kalau ia menang dalam will support this Bill; but if they are pilehan raya nanti, maka Kerajaan luar extended, I say, it will be too con- tidak segan2 memberi bantuan kapada flicting. Subject to that I do not oppose parti itu sendiri. Bagitu juga boleh jadi or support the Bill at the moment. parti itu berfaham Communist. Ya, sekarang kita tidak tahu mana-kah Enche' Ofhman bin Abdullah parti yang berfaham Communist, tetapi (Tanah Merah): Tuan Yang di-Pertua, telah ada tudohan2 kalau ia hendak tadi sahabat saya Yang Berhormat dari menang ia akan chuba menchan jalan Bachok telah membangkang usul yang dari luar supaya negara Communist di-kemukakan oleh Yang Berhormat memberi bantuan ikut pintu belakang Perdana Menteri dengan beberapa parti itu. alasan yang telah pun di-kemukakan- nya. Di-sini saya bangun turut juga Sebab itu-lah keadaan dunia di- membangkang Rang Undang2 Pindaan zaman demokrasi ini orang berperang ini, oleh kerana saya memandang bukan hanya dengan atomic bomb bahawa democracy yang akan kita lak- tetapi juga orang berperang dengan sanakan pada masa akan datang akan modal yang ada pada negara itu sendin. dapat di-jual dan akan dapat di-beli. Jadi dengan naik-nya belanja pilehan Sa-barang democracy yang boleh di- raya dengan bagini tinggi, saya mmta jual dan boleh di-beli akibat-nya bukan yang Teramat Mulia Perdana Menteri sahaja mengenai pada ra'ayat negeri supaya memikirkan perkara mi dua ini, tetapi juga akibat-nya akan meren- kali—memikirkan perkara ini dua kali dah dan menjatohkan keadaan dasar bukan-lah oleh kerana kami daripada negeri ini sendiri daripada mata dunia, PAS tidak ada berduit—takut masok dan menaikkan perbelanjaan yang di- pilehan raya—tidak, Tuan Yang di- bolehkan pada sa-orang chalon dalam Pertua—kami pernah masok pilehan 1411 8 AUGUST 1961 1412 # raya hanya dengan belanja tidak lebeh lebeh besar lagi bahaya-nya kapada' daripada $2,000 sa-orang, dan ada di- demokrasi kita dan kapada pilehan antara-nya menang dan ada yang kalah, raya kita yang akan datang. Alham- itu terserah kapada kebijaksanaan dulillah, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, pada chalun daripada parti itu sendiri. Tetapi masa2 yang telah sudah tidak-lah kalau masa yang akan datang—kalau pernah terjadi kekachauan yang me- masa yang akan datang ini duit-lah nimbulkan kematian daripada kempen2 yang menjadi faktor yang besar untok pilehan raya, sebab hanya berapi2 menarek pengundi2, saya rasa akan ber- mulut-nya sahaja, berapi2 penumbok laga-lah di-antara kuasa barat dengan di-tangan-nya sahaja. Tetapi kalau sa- kuasa timor menurut perbalahan dunia kira-nya parti politik itu sudah boleh sekarang ini, di-mana mereka sedang membelanjakan wang yang di-benar- berebut kuasa, berebut pengaroh di- kan oleh Undang2 ini sa-kian2 banyak sa-belah timor ini. ia-itu $10,000 mereka boleh menyuap kapada pasokan yang sekarang ini kita Tuan Yang di-Pertua, Parti Perikatan katakan gangster—yang banyak dalam tidak akan takut menghadapi pilehan negeri ini—gangster dalam negeri ini raya dengan menaikkan perbelanjaan tidak ada duit. Dan oleh kerana parti yang bagini besar kerana boleh jadi politik itu hendak menang, di-berikan- di-belakang-nya ada "taukeh2 besar", nya-lah kapada gangster itu duit tetapi Parti Perikatan hendak-lah ingat beberapa ribu ringgit supaya mereka bahawa bukan ia sa-orang sahaja yang melakukan kejahatan kapada chalun boleh berbuat bagitu, parti2 politik yang melawan parti politik-nya itu. yang lain akan berbuat saperti itu juga Jadi dengan wang yang saperti itu berlumba2 menchari modal daripada boleh menimbulkan huru-hara. Saya kapitalis2, di-mana parti2 politik itu khuatir, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, dengan nanti akan menjual hak ra'ayat negeri chara yang saperti ini akan melibatkan ini serta negeri ini sendiri kapada kaum negeri ini dalam keadaan yang tidak kapitalis yang telah menanamkan sihat pada masa yang akan datang. «r modal-nya sa-kian2 banyak kapada parti2 politik itu sendiri. Jadi yang kita Oleh itu, saya minta Yang Teramat sayangkan sekarang ia-lah supaya per- Mulia Perdana Menteri, kalau boleh, jalanan politik dan demokrasi dalam ia berfikir dua kali dalam soal ini. negeri ini sihat—sihat dengan erti kata Oleh kerana kalau kita sudah ter- pemikiran ra'ayat—ini-lah yang penting lanjor dalam perkara ini—saya sendiri supaya ra'ayat tahu dan memileh mana- telah mendengar keterangan yang di- kah yang patut dan mana yang tidak beri oleh Ahli Yang Berhormat dari patut, mana-kah yang elok dan mana- Ipoh tadi yang mengatakan ia tidak kah yang tidak elok. Maka dengan menyokong dan tidak pula mem- chara pemikiran ra'ayat dalam pilehan bantah, sebab ia ada banyak modal, ia boleh "challenge" Kerajaan Per­ raya itu akan lahir satu dasar negara 2 yang berchorak demokrasi yang tulin ikatan bila masa dengan wang dan dan berfaedah kapada ra'ayat. Tetapi dengan apa juga. Tetapi, Tuan Yang kalau sa-kira-nya dengan wang—kita di-Pertua, ra'ayat negeri ini akan telah pernah melalu'i pengalaman— menderita dengan chara yang saperti ia-itu ada orang yang datang mengada- itu. Itu sebab-nya mereka akan kan bisek2 dalam pilehan raya ini melawan—kalau mulut dengan mulut bukan sahaja mereka membawa duit dan kalau duit dengan duit. Tetapi apa tetapi membawa kain, membawa beras, akan jadi kapada ra'ayat yang tidak membawa gula2 dan membawa ber- tahu demokrasi—yang sekarang kita macham2 ka-rumah pengundi2 itu. Dan baharu hendak mengajar mereka itu sa-telah orang itu menerima pemberian belajar "Alif Ba Ta—A B C. daripada parti politik itu ia berkata: Maka dengan chara yang demikian Kalau awak tidak mengundi 'kami ini patut-lah Yang Teramat Mulia maka awak akan di-bawa ka- Perdana Menteri memikirkan dua kali Mahkamah. Tuan Yang . di-Pertua, dalam perkara ini supaya jangan ter­ penipuan dalam pilehan raya dengan jadi sa-suatu yang mengechiwakan kita sebab wang yang banyak ini akan pada masa yang akan datang. 1413 8 AUGUST 1961 1414

Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya rasa Jadi atas dasar pengalaman saya ini-lah sahaja bangkangan saya. yang telah sudah, saya menyokong Mudah2han Yang Teramat Mulia Per- usul ini ia-itu perbelanjaan patut-lah dana Menteri kita dapat memikirkan di-lipat gandakan sa-bagaimana yang dua kali, terima kaseh. telah di-benarkan di-masa yang lampau. Kerana dalam memberi penerangan di- Enche' Mohamed Yusof bin Mah- kawasan2 yang mempunyai jalan yang mud (Temerloh): Tuan Yang di- susah saperti kawasan negeri Pahang Pertua, saya menyokong usul ini yang jalan-nya sangat susah melalui dengan alasan ia-itu pada masa pilehan jeram dan terpaksa jalan kaki dan raya yang sudah bagi kawasan saya sa-bagai-nya, maka ini berkehendakkan perbelanjaan wang yang di-untokkan wang yang banyak untok menemm ia-lah sa-banyak $5,000. Peruntokan segala pengundi2 untok memberi ini sangat sadikit, sebab kawasan saya penerangan yang penoh. Sa-telah itu itu besar, dan di-satu2 tempat itu terpulang-lah kapada ra'ayat itu untok saya terpaksa berbelanja $170.00 tiap2 memileh mana satu Kerajaan yang sa-kali datang. Di-dalam pilehan raya di-sukai-nya atau mana pati yang ra'ayat hendak-lah di-beri penerangan mereka hendak pileh. Dengan sebab yang penoh tentang dasar tiap2 parti itu sa-wajib-nya-lah perbelanjaan itu yang bertanding itu. Oleh itu bagai- di-lipat gandakan. mana-kah ra'ayat hendak memileh mana-kah satu parti yang di-fikirkan Enche' Mohamed bin Ujang (Jelebu- baik dan tidak baik jika tidak di-beri Jempol): Tuan Yang di-Pertua, di- penerangan? Kawasan saya pada masa hadapan kita ini ia-lah satu chadangan yang akan datang akan dua kali lipat hendak menghadkan wang bagi di- gunakan dalam pilehan raya. Sa-benar- ganda besar-nya daripada yang ada 2 pada masa ini. Oleh itu pada fikiran nya Rang Undang itu tidak-lah boleh saya perbelanjaan yang di-chadangkan memaksa sa-saorang itu berbelanja oleh Kerajaan ini patut-lah di-timbang- lebeh kalau sa-kira-nya pati-nya telah kan, kerana pada masa yang lalu menyediakan dan pati-nya memikirkan perbelanjaan-nya tidak chukup, dan boleh dapat kejayaan dengan tidak pada masa ini kawasan itu telah dua perlu menggunakan wang yang banyak kali lipat ganda besar-nya. ia-itu chuma memada'i dengan wang yang sadikit sahaja. Ini semua-nya Yang kedua, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, boleh di-buat oleh pati itu, akan faktor untok sa-sabuah parti itu tetapi ada satu2 tempat saperti di- menentukan dasar-nya tidak-lah ter- kawasan2 yang besar maka berke­ pulang kapada Kerajaan, ia terpulang hendakkan wang yang banyak dari­ kapada ra'ayat, tetapi ra'ayat hendak- pada yang telah di-tentukan kerana lah mendapat penerangan yang penoh hendak menerangkan kapada ra'ayat daripada segala faktor, daripada segala dasar2 pati-nya. Jadi soal hendak chara yang boleh di-beri oleh parti itu menghadkan wang itu saya fikir, kapada mereka. tidak payah-lah di-heboh2kan di-sini dan terpulang-lah kapada kebijak- Berkenaan dengan tudohan Ahli sanaan pati itu sendiri mengendalikan Yang Berhormat yang baharu ber- kerja2-nya. chakap tadi yang mengatakan Undang2 ini membolehkan parti politik meng- Sa-lain daripada itu, Tuan Yang di- gunakan gangster dan sa-bagai-nya. Pertua, ada sa-tengah pehak mengata­ Tetapi, jika parti politik itu hendak kan kalau pati itu hendak berkuasa menggunakan gangster pun boleh bahawa pati itu boleh dapat sokongan dengan tidak payah menggunakan daripada luar negeri kerana negeri luar wang ini ia-itu dengan tidak payah itu akan membelanjakan kapada pati menunjokkan perbelanjaan-nya, mereka itu. Saya fikir, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, perkara itu tidak akan terjadi boleh mendapat wang untok meng­ 2 gunakan gangster. Oleh itu alasan2 dalam negeri kita ini kerana orang yang parti politik boleh menggunakan di-Malaya ini sunggoh pun baharu berdemokrasi, tetapi mereka sudah gangster dengan wang ini tidak-lah 2 menasabah. tahu benar erti demokrasi. Chuma 1415 8 AUGUST 1961 1416 yang kita mesti amati2 sekarang ia-lah mengatorkan tenaga2 daripada pehak supaya kejayaan itu jangan dapat di- pati kita. Kalau sa-kira-nya pada masa pengarohi oleh orang luar negeri ini. yang akan datang ini perbelanjaan Dan lagi kalau hendak menggunakan untok Pilehan Raya itu di-tambah wang untok gangster atau sa-bagai-nya sedangkan maksud kita hendak memi- perkara ini boleh di-jalankan kita leh satu pemimpin ra'ayat. Ada chalun2 tidak akan dapat tahu, sedangkan itu tidak ada wang yang chukup, akan pulis pun tidak dapat tahu. Pati tetapi ia mempunyai kebolehan untok PPR mengatakan dengan ada-nya menjadi sa-orang chalun, oleh itu undang2 yang baharu kelak maka per­ boleh mengendalakan untok menjadi belanjaan Pilehan Raya tidak akan chalun itu kerana tidak chukup wang. berlebeh ia-itu tidak berkehendakkan Dan ada pula chalun yang tidak mem­ wang yang banyak. Akan tetapi saya punyai kebolehan, akan tetapi ia suka menyatakan bahawa kalau ke- mempunyai wang yang banyak, dan adaan ra'ayat sekarang ini sudah tentu-lah chalun yang tidak ber- tahu betul2 dasar pati itu tentu-lah kebolehan ini terpileh. Perkara ini akan tidak susah. Sekarang pati2 itu hendak- terjadi di-mana2 pati, walau pun lah memberi penerangan2 kapada dalam pati Perikatan juga, Tuan Yang ra'ayat dasar pati-nya dan dengan ini di-Pertua. terpaksa-lah menggunakan perbelan- Di-sini, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, kerana jaan yang lebeh sa-belum hari mereka itu ada wang maka dapat di- penghabisan manakala kita tidak boleh masokkan menjadi chalun, dan kalau lagi berkempen atau pun memberi mereka itu tidak berwang maka di- penerangan. Walau pun kita tidak kebelakangkan, walau pun mereka itu boleh membelanjakan wang pada masa mempunyai kebolehan menjadi sa-orang itu, tetapi sa-belum itu, kita ber­ pemimpin. Ini terjadi dalam pati UMNO kehendakkan wang yang lebeh banyak sendiri, saya mengetahui'-nya. Jadi daripada telah kita tentukan. supaya perkara ini tidak berlaku, Tuan Sakian-lah, Tuan Yang di-Pertua. Yang di-Pertua, saya minta-lah kapada Yang Amat Berhormat Perdana Men- Che' Khadijah binti Md. Sidek teri supaya memikirkan perkara ini (Dungim): Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya supaya chalun2 itu walau pun mereka bangun membangkang sa-bagaimana itu tidak mempunyai wang, tetapi ada yang di-terangkan oleh sa-orang wakil kebolehan untok menjadi chalun maka dari Temerloh ia-itu dahulu peng- hendak-lah di-ambil mereka dan ja- alaman beliau dalam kawasan-nya ia-itu 2 ngan-lah di-ketepikan dan ini-lah sebab- ada melalui jeram dan lain . Akan nya boleh menjadi huruhara dalam tetapi mengikut pengalaman saya pula pati yang menjadikan pati itu kerisis di-dalam kawasan saya, Tuan Yang di- di-antara satu sama lain. {Di-sampok) Pertua, saya rasa kawasan saya juga Diam! (Ketawa). Saya selalu di- besar yang mana kawasan saya itu ada ganggu, Tuan Yang di-Pertua. dua district officer, sedangkan di-kawa- san2 yang lain hanya satu sahaja district Mr. Speaker: Dengar dahulu, saya officer-nya. Kalau sa-kira-nya $5,000 kata, kalau hendak berchakap hendak- perbelanjaan yang telah di-tetapkan itu lah di-alamatkan kapada saya, saya hendak di-tambah lagi, bagi saya pada sudah banyak kali memberi amaran masa yang silam saya belanja tidak ini. lebeh daripada $1,000, Tuan Yang di- Che' Khadijah binti Md. Sidek: Pertua, kerana saya tidak chukup wang Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya berkata dan kalau sa-kira-nya pada hari me- yang betul, tetapi mereka ini selalu ngundi dari pehak pati Perikatan ada mengachau saya. 80 buah kereta, maka saya ada be- berapa buah kereta sahaja, Tuan Yang Mr. Speaker: Itu boleh, tetapi di-Pertua, untok mengangkat pe- hendak-lah alamatkan kapada saya, ngundi2. Bagitu juga kalau tempat2 yang saya boleh buat kerana saya ada kuasa. jauh itu ada juga menggunakan Che' Khadijah binti Md. Sidek: motorbot, itu bergantong kapada keak- Kadang2 kesabaran itu tidak dapat di- tipan kita memberikan penerangan atau tahan lagi. 1417 8 AUGUST 1961 1418 Mr. Speaker: Teruskan-lah. Mr. Speaker: Jangan di-ulang2kan hujah2 itu. Che' Khadijah binti Md. Sidek: Jadi untok mengatasi terjadi-nya 2 2 Enche' Mohamed Asri bin Haji kerisis dalam satu pati, kerana ini Muda: Tidak, Tuan Yang di-Pertua. bukan-nya berlaku pada pehak pati Saya berdiri membangkang chadangan pembangkang sahaja bahkan ada juga yang di-kemukakan oleh Yang Amat dalam pehak pati Kerajaan. Jadi dapat- 2 Berhormat Perdana Menteri ini. Sebab lah kita memileh betul dengan suara saya tidak nampak apa-kah satu ra'ayat dengan chara demokrasi ia-itu 2 tujuan asasi yang menyebabkan pehak chalun yang ada kebolehan walau pemerentah—pehak Kerajaan, dapat pun ia tidak berwang; dapat di-ambil mengemukakan satu chadangan yang mereka. saperti ini. Kalau kita dengar hujah2 Sa-takat ini-lah sahaja, sa-moga yang di-keluarkan oleh sahabat saya Yang Amat Berhormat Perdana Men- Yang Berhormat dari Temerloh dan teri dapat memikirkan perkara ini kawan2-nya yang lain nampak-nya, untok keselamatan kita bersama. hanya meletakkan hujah-nya itu kapada Enche' Liu Yoong Peng (Rawang): soal kawasan-nya bertambah luas Mr. Speaker, Sir, I do not intend to sa-hingga Ahli Yang Berhormat wakil oppose or agree to this Bill, because I dari Temerloh mengatakan dua kali think this Bill is a farce. We know that lipat-ganda kawasan-nya bertambah many candidates from the Alliance . . . pada masa yang akan datang ini yang menyebabkan tentu-lah perbelanjaan- Enche' Zulkiflee bin Muhammad: nya bertambah besar. Tetapi, Tuan Mr. Speaker, Sir, on a point of 'order, Yang di-Pertua, kalau ini-lah yang is the word "farce" parliamentary? merupakan alasan yang kuat bagi Enche' Liu Yoong Peng: I think pehak parti pemerentah ini saya rasa, "farce" is parliamentary. alasan ini tidak dapat di-kemukakan dan tidak dapat di-pegang dengan Mr. Speaker: You must be careful bagitu kemas, Sebab bila satu2 kawasan in choosing your words. itu menjadi luas, oleh kerana sa-suatu Enche' Liu Yoong Peng: As I was hal yang menyebabkan Surohanjaya saying, Sir, many of the Alliance Pilehan Raya itu mengubahkan candidates do spend much more than kawasan-nya, .neschaya terlibat-lah this amount, and in the past it has been pula kawasan lain menjadi sempit. difficult for the Election Commission, Saperti mithal-nya, Tuan Yang di- even after they have the accounts, to Pertua, dalam kawasan pilehan raya ascertain whether the candidates have Hulu Kelantan di-negeri Kelantan, spent more than that amount. Now, dalam pilehan raya tahun 1959 even if we increase the sum from kawasan Ulu Kelantan Timor dan $5,000 to $10,000 and so forth for the Hulu Kelantan Barat; kawasan pilehan raya negeri, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, other candidates, it would still be very 2 difficult for the Election Commission hampir sama luas-nya. Tetapi di- to trace the real amounts spent during dalam kawasan baharu yang di- elections. Therefore, to have a Bill like kemukakan oleh Surohanjaya Pilehan this, in practice it will not serve any Raya yang akan di-lakukan dalam purpose whatsoever—this is because tahun 1964 nanti, kawasan pilehan whatever the amount that is allowed raya Hulu Kelantan Barat bertambah by law, if the candidates want to sa-kali ganda luas-nya dan kawasan spend more, they will do so knowing pilehan raya Hulu Kelantan Timor full well that it is very difficult for the akan menjadi sempit sa-sempit2-nya. Election Commission to find out the Dan saya rasa, kawasan pilehan raya truth. It is no use having a Bill which negeri Hulu Kelantan Barat pada masa cannot be observed properly. yang akan datang ini hams lebeh luas daripada kawasan pilehan raya Parli- Enche' Mohamed Asri bin Haji men Temerloh sendiri. Jadi, Tuan Muda (Pasir Puteh): Tuan Yang di- Yang di-Pertua, kalau di-asaskan Pertua keluasan kawasan itu yang menjadi 1419 8 AUGUST 1961 1420 ukoran untok di-tambah perbelanjaan Tetapi, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, chara wang pilehan raya, bagaimana pula yang saperti ini tentu-lah chara yang kawasan yang telah menjadi bagitu tidak sehat; kalau benar bagitu dan sempit sa-sempit2-nya sampai sa-kali saya berharap tidak benar bagitu. ganda sempit daripada mula2 dahulu, Jadi, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya boleh-kah itu kita sipatkan sa-bagai memandang dengan di-naikkan atau satu kawasan yang tidak memerlukan di-besarkan kebenaran bagi sa-orang penambahan wang atau pun memer­ chalun menggunakan wang dalam lukan kapada pemotongan lagi dari­ pilehan raya saperti yang di-nyatakan pada peruntokan wang yang di-benar- dalam Bill ini, saya rasa, boleh jadi kan sa-banyak $5,000 di-masa yang menarek negeri ini kapada satu kemlot lalu. Jadi, saya rasa, kalau hendak demokrasi. Demokrasi dalam negeri di-asaskan kapada penambahan mem- ini akan jadi sa-suatu yang tidak benarkan sa-saorang chalun itu mem- di-pandang tinggi lagi di-masa yang belanjakan wang saperti yang di- akan datang. Sebab kalau soal wang- maksudkan dalam Bill ini di-asaskan lah yang menjadi asas dalam soal kapada luas-nya kawasan itu, saya pilehan raya ini sudah tentu-lah nilai rasa terpaksa-lah Bill ini di-pinda demokrasi akan jatoh, sebab demokrasi supaya di-perbeza2kan-lah kawasan dalam negeri ini akan bergantong atas yang sempit yang ukoran sekian, kebolehan wang ringgit sa-saorang. sekian pula kewangan-nya. Itu-lah Tuan Yang di-Pertua, bagi pehak saya saya rasa alasan ini tidak dapat di- dan parti saya, soal perbelanjaan terima, dengan kerana luas dan sempit bagaimana banyak sa-kali pun orang kawasan sa-saorang itu tidak berbang- itu berbelanja pehak kami tidak takut kit, umpama-nya saya sendiri tidak menghadapi pilehan raya ini walau pun berubah sadikit pun tentu-lah tidak kami tahu bahawa parti kami ini terikat dengan hujah Ahli Yang tidak-lah kuat dalam soal kewangan- Berhormat dari Temerloh tadi. nya. Bahkan dalam pilehan2 raya tahun lalu pun kami boleh menang, 2 Boleh jadi, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, melawan parti yang menggunakan pehak pemerentah yang menchadang- wang yang berlipat kali ganda dari­ kan ini memandangkan kerana selama pada kami dalam pilehan raya itu. ini chalun2 tidak chukup belanja. Apa yang kami bimbangkan bukan-lah Dalam masa pilehan raya tahun yang soal itu, akan tetapi yang kami lalu wang yang sa-banyak di-tentukan bimbangkan itu ia-lah nilai demokrasi peruntokan membenarkan sa-saorang negeri ini akan merosot di-masa yang itu di-belanjakan kerana pilehan raya akan datang. itu tidak chukup. Tetapi saya, saperti kata sahabat saya mula2 tadi selama The Prime Minister: Tuan Yang di- ini tidak terhalang dalam soal ke- Pertua, barangkali saya telah tidak wangan. Dan saya sendiri pernah menerangkan dengan sa-chukup2 akan menjadi chalun untok dudok dalam sebab2-nya mengapa Kerajaan menge- Dewan ini, perbelanjaan-nya ta' luarkan chadangan hendak menambah sampai sa-paroh daripada yang di- perbelanjaan di-dalam pilehan raya. tentukan oleh Undang2 Pilehan Raya Kerana itu berbagai2 fikiran dan ber- pada masa yang lalu. Atau pun, Tuan bagai2 tudohan oleh parti saya sendiri. Yang di-Pertua, ini boleh jadi, pehak Apa yang sa-benar-nya ia-lah chada­ pemerentah ini merasa dan memikirkan ngan ini bukan-lah di-keluarkan dari­ bahawa parti-nya sekarang ini sudah pada saya sendiri tetapi nasib saya bagitu utoh, sudah bagitu kuat dalam yang tidak baik jadi Perdana Menteri, soal kewangan. Dengan yang demikian saya kena-lah ikut nasihat yang di- dia berfikir barangkali dengan menaik- berikan oleh Election Commission. kan wang erti-nya memberi kesempat- Jadi, Election Commission-lah yang an kapada parti-nya yang kuat memereksa hal perbelanjaan dan mem- kewangan dapat berbelanja sa-mahu2- buat chadangan ini. Sa-lepas pilehan nya sa-hingga sampai kapada had raya di-dapati perbelanjaan di-sa- $10,000 itu dan dapat menekan kapada tengah2 tempat patut lebeh dari yang parti yang lemah dalam soal kewangan. telah di-tentukan dan kena-lah di-

* 1421 8 AUGUST 1961 1422

tambah. Dan kebanyakan chalun2 sa- sebutkan hal2 democracy, kerana tuan2 lepas pilehan raya menghantarkan apa2 pun tahu. Sekarang ini bukan-lah dapat perbelanjaan itu maka dapati oleh kita hendak beli dengan duit, kerana Jawatan-Kuasa Pilehan Raya tidak sa-saorang itu jikalau ia hendak vote menasabah dengan perbelanjaan yang kita beli undi dia, tetapi apabila ia telah di-hantarkan itu. Jadi, sa-lepas pergi mengundi antara dia dengan daripada pilehan raya, Election Com­ Tuhan sahaja-lah kapada siapa yang ia mission telah bekerja dan memereksa hendak mengundi, kerana dalam dan dengan timbangan yang teliti-nya pilehan2 raya sahaja kita sudah tengok di-dapati jika kita hadkan sa-bagaimana berapa banyak orang2 tompang naik dahulu jadi sa-olah2-nya kita ini tolong kereta itu, tompang naik kereta atau kita membenarkan dengan sengaja ini, parti itu, parti ini tetapi bagi chalun2 kita dalam Parlimen ini apabila ia pergi mengundi ia pileh buat kerja yang tidak baik—membuat siapa yang ia suka. Jadi ini ia-lah kerja yang burok. Jadi, oleh kerana secret ballot yang di-katakan ini satu itu-lah saperti yang di-katakan oleh perkara yang kita timbangkan dengan Ahli Yang Berhormat tadi, jadi di- chukup hormati, dan kata orang siapa tambah sadikit. Dengan tambahan ini yang mengundi dia sahaja-lah yang pun boleh di-belanjakan kurang dari­ tahu. Dengan kerana itu bukan-lah pada wang sa-banyak itu. boleh kita beli vote dia. Kalau boleh beli, maka ta' payah-lah kita adakan Bagi pehak parti saya pula, ini boleh kempen, ta' payah susah hendak pergi di-katakan satu parti yang besar yang ka-kampong2 berhujan, berpanas, men- mengambil bahagian dalam tiap2 jeret2 di-padang2 (Ketawa) kena maki pilehan raya, baik di-luar bandar, dan macham2 lagi (Ketawa). Undi ia- dalam bandar, City Council mahu pun lah satu benda yang ta' boleh beli itu dalam Federal Council. Jadi memang- 2 yang saya katakan ini terpaksa-lah kita lah parti yang besar itu tentu-lah lebeh ini mengenalkan diri kita kapada lagi tidak berkehendakkan di-belanja­ 2 2 ra'ayat atau pun kapada pengundi kan wang kalau sa-boleh -nya, kerana sakalian. Kalau ia hendak timbang, wang bukan senang di-dapati—bukan hendak ambil, kita uchapkan terima kita ini buat duit. Jadi kita kena-lah kaseh banyak2. Kalau ia ta' mahu apa sadikit menchari ikhtiar dalam perkara 2 boleh buat, ta' upaya-lah kita saperti ini. Itu pun tuan tahu sendiri apabila apa yang terjadi di-pantai timor itu, dekat pilehan raya dahulu, saya minta kita rioh, kita menjeret—kita kalah pertolongan dengan sa-chara resmi (Ketawa). daripada siapa2 yang menaroh kasehan Jadi itu-lah yang saya katakan minta- kapada parti yang ikhlas dan parti 2 yang mereka perchaya itu supaya boleh lah tuan terima apa yang saya katakan kita dapat wang untok perbelanjaan tadi. Chadangan ini di-keluarkan dalam pilehan raya ini. Dengan kerana bukan-lah dengan kerana kita ini ada itu ta' saya nampak baik keluar tudoh- duit—ta' ada. Saya sendiri dalam menudoh terhadap Kerajaan—terhadap kawasan saya dan banyak kawan2 yang parti kita ini. Apa yang sa-benar-nya berbelanja kurang banyak daripada apa ia-lah chadangan2 ini di-terbitkan dari­ yang di-tetapkan. Bukan berma'ana pada Jawatan-Kuasa Pilehan Raya apabila di-naikkan perbelanjaan itu yang kita sendiri lantek sa-bagai satu kita kena-lah belanja banyak—itu tidak, Jawatan-Kuasa yang bebas yang pehak kalau boleh di-kurangkan lebeh baik. Kerajaan tidak ada champor pada Sir, in reply to the Honourable masa mengator, menyusun atau pun Member for Ipoh, I am happy to say menasihatkan kapada mereka itu. Apa that the Honourable Member appre­ yang di-chadangkan itu semua-nya ciates the fact that the canvassing ban pehak Kerajaan sa-bagaimana yang only applies to the Local Council but saya katakan kemukakan kapada it does not apply to Parliamentary or Majlis ini sa-lepas di-pereksa dan di- State elections. The Elections Commis­ timbangkan serta di-tilek dan di-dapati sion cannot itself make any regulations apa yang di-chadangkan ia-lah yang to apply to any elections to the State sa-benar-nya. Jadi saya ta' hendak or Parliament. That can only be done 1423 8 AUGUST 1961 1424 by this House. At the moment I do not at this particular juncture, especially think there is any intention of applying when the Federal Government is this ban to either State or Parliamentary embarking on a policy of encouraging elections. I think that is about all I the growth of industries through private have to reply in regard to the remarks investment. Honourable Members will made by the Honourable Members in probably agree with me that laws with this House. such diverse provisions will only tend Question put, and agreed to. to be discriminatory and would, in the end, deter private capital from partici­ Bill accordingly read a second time pating in industrial investment. and committed to a Committee of the whole House. Before I go into the provisions of the Bill, I would like to make the point House immediately resolved itself that the pattern of the Bill follows, as into a Committee on the Bill. far as practicable, the Customs Ordi­ Bill considered in Committee. nance, 1952, particularly as regards the manner of granting exemption from the (Mr. Speaker in the Chair) payment of excise duty and as regards Clauses 1 to 3 inclusive ordered to the provisions relating to trials, procee­ stand part of the Bill. dings, offences and penalties. The major amendments to the existing laws are Bill reported without amendment: proposed in Parts VII and VIII of the read the third time and passed. Bill, and I shall deal with the relevant Clauses as I proceed to deal with the THE EXCISE BILL provisions Part by Part. The Bill, Sir, is a straightforward one, and in explain­ Second Reading ing the provisions, I do not propose to take too much of Honourable Members' The Minister of Finance (Enche' time. Tan Siew Sin): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that a Bill intituled "An Part I deals with the required defini­ Act to amend and consolidate the law tions and for the interest of Honourable relating to Excise" be read a second Members, I might perhaps draw their time. attention to the definition of words such as "alcohol", "dutiable", "Excise This Bill which is now before the Officer", "owner", "tobacco", "toddy", House is essentially a piece of consoli­ "uncured tobacco" which have been dating legislation which, together with incorporated in Clause 2 of this Part. the regulations, will in future constitute These definitions are necessary with a an Excise Code which will have effect view to avoiding doubt and ambiguity throughout the Federation. The provi­ when disagreement occurs. sions of this Bill will replace those of the various Excise Enactments now in Part II provides for the appointment force in several States. The Bill will of officers to be charged with the duty also repeal the Tobacco (Licensing and of collecting, accounting for and mana­ Excise Duty) Ordinance, 1954, which ging the revenues from excise. There provides only for the licensing and are no amendments to the existing laws collection of excise on manufactured in this Part of the Bill. tobacco although it has the force of law Part III deals with the question of throughout the Federation. levying of excise duty. As provided in Sir, such consolidation is now long the Customs Ordinance, 1952, the overdue because not only has expe­ Minister is empowered to fix the excise rience shown that the various Excise duty from time to time by order in the Enactments are difficult to administer Gazette. Clause 10 provides that the but their provisions have proved Minister may, by order, exempt, subject ineffective owing to their very lack of to any conditions that he may deem uniformity. It is also desirable, indeed fit to impose, any class of goods or essential, that the provisions of the persons from the payment of the whole various Enactments should be unified or any part of excise duty which may

m 1425 8 AUGUST 1961 1426 be payable. This provision is similar cating liquors. It is intended, however, to Clause 13 of the Customs Ordinance, that State Governments should be 1952. consulted every time before members of the Licensing Boards are actually Part IV of the Bill sets out the appointed. Special provision is included provisions for the manufacture! of duti­ under Clause 86 of the Bill for the able goods and in this Part I wish to Minister to delegate the power to elaborate first on Clause 16 (2). This appoint such members should this be Clause empowers the Minister to desirable for practical reasons. Clause exempt any class of persons from the 32 (2) of Part VII of the Bill provides requirements of licensing, under sub­ that public servants, who, in their clause 1 of the Clause. It is proposed, official capacity, have any dealings or in exercise of this power, to provide are in any way concerned with the exemption from duty for those who sale or purchase of intoxicating liquors manufacture tobacco by manual means or with premises in which such sale or for their own consumption. Under the purchase is carried on shall be present statutory concession, those excluded from membership of the manufacturing tobacco for sale and Licensing Boards in order to avoid employing not more than 3 persons allegations that such officers may try may be liable to duty, and consequently to exert undue influence on the other should be dealt with by an order of members of the Board. This is an the Minister. Clause 18 would enable important amendment and Honourable registered medical practitioners, phar­ Members will agree with me that such macists and qualified chemists to carry officers should not be placed in a out their normal business by exempting position where this can be said of them from the provision of Clause them. However, such officers will be 16 (1) which requires them to obtain allowed to attend meetings of and licences for distilling dutiable goods. address the Licensing Boards. Clause 19 (2) has been incorporated to prevent loss of revenue through Clause 34 in this Part of the Bill carelessness or a possible attempt to provides that a person to whom a evade payment of duty. licence has been issued under Clause 16 for the manufacture of intoxicating Part V makes provision for the liquor may sell such liquor by whole­ storage of dutiable goods and as they sale at his licensed place of manufac­ are straightforward, I do not propose ture but if the liquor is removed to to say anything more on these provi­ another place, a separate licence must sions. Similarly, with Part VI of the be obtained. This provision has been Bill, which controls movement and included because it is necessary to storage of tobacco which do not depart exempt the distiller from having to from the provisions of the Tobacco obtain a wholesale licence if the sale (Licensing and Excise Duty) Ordi­ of liquor is made at the place of nance, 1954. manufacture. This provision thus avoids the ambiguity in the existing Sir, I now come to Part VII of the Excise Enactment Cap. 133. Bill which contains the more impor­ tant amendments which, as I mentioned Part VIII also contains an important earlier, I would deal with under the amendment and makes special provi­ appropriate Part. It will be observed sion for the extraction and sale of toddy. that Clause 32 (1) empowers the Government toddy shops are not at Minister, instead of the Ruler in present licensed, and provision is made Council of a State, to establish for the issue by the Minister of permits Licensing Boards. This amendment is to tap palm trees for toddy to persons a departure from the normal tradition, to whom contracts have been awarded but it has been introduced in order to for the supply of toddy to Govern­ increase Federal control and to save ment shops. It is not, however, embarrassment to certain State Govern­ proposed to bring the provisions ments arising from the exercise of of this Part together with those of executive functions in relation to intoxi­ Clause 36 (1) (e) 76 and 77 into 1427 8 AUGUST 1961 1428

operation at the present time until powers or the performance of the future policy in relation to toddy has duties conferred or imposed on him by been decided and the State Govern­ this Act to any person described by ments fully consulted on this matter. name or office. This is an important provision and, in my reference to Part IX sets out miscellaneous pro­ Clause 32 earlier on, I have mentioned visions to regulate the manner of that for practical reasons, it is intended giving information and evidence and to use this Clause generously. I might the manner regarding service of notice. also mention that Clauses 44 and 87 Clause 51 in this Part allows an appeal provide for existing subsidiary legisla­ to be made to the Minister when any tion, insofar as it is not inconsistent person is aggrieved by the decision with the provisions of the Bill, to of the Comptroller of Customs on any remain in force until other provision is provision under this Part of the Bill. made therefor. Parte X and XI are important Parts While, Sir, I do not propose to take and the provisions follow very closely the House through the Bill in detail, those of the Customs Ordinance, 1952. there are three points which I under­ The following Clauses of the Bill stand have given rise to some anxiety relating to trials and proceedings, on the part of Honourable Members similar to existing provisions in the and I will try to dispose of them. Customs Ordinance, 1952, have been introduced, for example, Firstly, does the man who grows tobacco require a licence under the Clause 60 of the Bill is similar to Bill to do so? The answer is "No". section 115 of the Customs Ordi­ The person who grows tobacco is nance. lawfully in possession of that tobacco Clause 61 of the Bill is similar to and therefore may sell it without a section 116 of the Customs Ordi­ licence to a licensed tobacco dealer by nance. virtue of Clause 26 of the Bill. A Clause 63 of the Bill is similar to grower's right to possess such tobacco section 121 of the Customs Ordi­ without licence is safeguarded by nance. Clause 30 of the Bill. Clause 64 of the Bill is similar to The second question is: "Does a section 122 of the Customs Ordi­ person engaged in distributing beer, nance. that is to say taking it to a shop to be This observation applies to several sold or delivering from a shop to a other Clauses, too. If Honourable customer require a licence?" The Members will refer to the comparative answer, so far as delivery by sale on table on page 42 of the Bill, they will retail is concerned, is again "No". see that Clauses 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, Clause 35 (1) expressly provides for 71 and 72 are comparable to various this. On the other hand, sale by sections in the Customs Ordinance, wholesale of intoxicating liquor is 1952. restricted to holders of wholesale dealers' licences. The position with Part XII provides for the manner in respect to this under the Bill is, which the offences are to be dealt with therefore, exactly the same as it is and the penalties to be imposed. This, under existing legislation. together with the provisions of Part XIII, follow strictly existing provisions The third question is: "Does a in the various Excise Enactments, and person who sells beer by retail, for there is, therefore, no necessity for me instance a coffee shop proprietor, to draw the attention of Honourable require a licence?" Once again the Members to any of the Clauses in these position under the Bill is exactly the Parts, except to refer to Clause 86 same as it is under existing legislation. where the Minister may, by notification It is no offence to sell beer by retail in the Gazette and subject to such for consumption on or off the premises conditions and restrictions as may be of the vendor in unopened bottles. necessary, delegate the exercise of the A s to sale by retail of beer, no licence 1429 8 AUGUST 1961 1430

is required if the beer is sold in was being brought into this House. Mr. unopened, bottles. On the other hand, Speaker, Sir, I am sure the Prime provision has been made for the issue Minister would exclude responsibility of beer house licences which will of M.I.C. on the ground of collective enable the holder to sell beer in opened responsibility of the Cabinet, so on that bottles for consumption on his pre­ ground we can be sure that M.I.C. mises. In the present Ordinance that Ministers are equally responsible for sort of licence is restricted to draught, this work on toddy. not bottled beer—a needless restriction. Beer by definition includes stout. Sir, Mr. Speaker, Sir, we have been told these are the main provisions of the constantly in the papers that some Bill which I now commend to this M.I.C. leaders have been condemning House. toddy even to the extent of saying that it is that evil spirit that makes some Sir, I beg to move. workers misbehave. Now, Mr. Speaker, Dato' Dr. Ismail: Sir, I beg to Sir, there is this contradiction that, second the motion. outside this House, there is vociferous condemnation of toddy, and in this Enche' D. R. Seenivasagam: Mr. House there is tacit blessing of this Speaker, Sir, I am much obliged to the provision. What we would like to know Honourable Minister who moved this is, are these evangelists in the M.I.C. Bill for clarifying those three points— going to carry on their campaign inside in fact they were in my mind. It is this House or not? Mr. Speaker, Sir, always nice to have a Bill which unifies one very strange provision on this the law because it makes it easier all question of toddy and although, Mr. round. Speaker, Sir, it applies to all liquor shops, strangely it has been put under But I rise today just to make a toddy, and it reads: curious enquiry, that is whether this "No person under 16 years of age shall Bill comes with the unanimous support be permitted to enter a toddy shop or a of the Alliance Party or whether it shop licensed under paragraph E of sub­ comes here with the dissenting voice of section 1 of section 36." the Minister of Works and Telecom­ Mr. Speaker, Sir, all these refer to munications, because, as I see it, his various liquor shops, but the age that party and he himself are very strong is mentioned—no person under 16 champions of "no toddy" and this years of age shall be permitted to enter particular act, as I see it, makes a toddy or other licensed liquor shop— provision not only for toddy to be sold as we know in Malaya to-day there are but also for the Government and the many school children who are above Minister in charge of this Department the age of 16—between 16 and 20. Mr. to establish toddy shops in this country. Speaker, Sir, is it not advisable to have This is an interesting point—perhaps some sort of a provision to discourage we may hear it at a later stage. our school children who are above 16 Enche' K. Karam Singh: Mr. Speaker, from going to toddy shops and other Sir, I do not know whether the Honour­ kindred shops? Mr. Speaker, Sir, even able Member from Ipoh read my mind if a person above 16 is not a school or I read his mind, but when I was boy, he may be an unemployed, and going through this Bill, witness my should he not also be discouraged from shock when I came to Part VIII and I going into these liquor shops; and even found the heading "toddy". Mr. Spea­ if after the age of 16 he is a worker, ker, Sir, I was wondering whether the he is getting a wage, is it not advisable M.I.C. had left the Alliance, but after in the interest of our nation to dis­ having checked up the papers and not courage drinking at the early age of 17? finding anything about it, I knew that Mr. Speaker, Sir, I bring this to the nothing of the sort had happened and notice of the Government not through I had to reconcile myself with the fact any over-zealous attitude on toddy but that M.I.C. Ministers were still in the as regards the sober interest of our Cabinet and this provision on toddy people. 1431 8 AUGUST 1961 1432 * Mr. Speaker, Sir, another thing that I hope they will not still be wool gather­ might point out to the Government is ing. I quote: the question of illicit liquor shops, and "It is not however, proposed to bring the there may be a query as to what is provisions of this Part together with wrong with illicit liquor shops apart those . ."—the part relating to toddy— from the fact that they do not have a "of Clauses 36 (1) (

Enche' V. Manickavasagam: Sir, on Mr. Speaker: I think we have had a point of information, the Commis- enough on the policy of M.I.C. on the sioner for Labour has closed down a question of toddy. number of toddy shops. Enche' Tan Siew Sin: Mr. Speaker, Enche' S. P. Seenivasagam: If I am Sir, to begin with, I shall take your given details as to which estate toddy advice and not say anything more on shops the Commissioner for Labour the question of toddy vis-a-vis the has directed to be closed down, I M.I.C. I think my Honourable friends would be much obliged. the Minister of Works, Posts and Tele­ communications and the Assistant Enche' V. Manickavasagam: I will Minister of Labour have said enough send you a list! (Laughter). hi subject. Enche' S. P. Seenivasagam: Thank The Honourable Member for Daman- you very much! Now, in attempting sara has asked the Government to to pull wool over others' eyes, reference enact legislation, if I understood him was made to the Explanatory Note correctly, to prevent youngsters from No. 5. But the Explanatory Note being admitted into toddy shops. If he No. 5 does not say that the policy on had taken the trouble to read this Bill toddy shops will be considered at a later carefully, he would have noted the stage . . . What it says is this: following words in Clause 40 (6): "It is not, however, proposed to bring the "No person under sixteen years of age provisions of this Part, together with those of shall be permitted to enter a Government Clauses 36 (1) (e), 16 and 77, into operation Toddy Shop or a shop licensed under until action has been taken under Article 110 paragraph (e) of sub-section (1) of section of the Constitution to replace revenue from 36." toddy shops as a source of State revenue." This provision is, in fact, identical to a That means that the toddy will con­ similar provision in the Excise Enact­ tinue to be licensed even at a later ment. stage but the revenue will go to the Federal Government and not to the The Honourable Member also felt State Government and, until State that the Government should go further revenue is replaced, these special and try to prevent unemployed adults— provisions will not be implemented. It I think that was what he was referring has nothing to do with toddy policy to—from consuming liquor in licensed in general. premises. That, I think, is a rather difficult thing to do. It can be a delicate Mr. Speaker, Sir, as regards the operation sometimes if, for example, policy of our Party on toddy, we take the Government officer concerned were a practical view of things. We appre­ to prevent the Honourable Member ciate, we understand, human weakness. himself from buying a drink in case he If you do not allow a man to drink toddy, he will drink beer. If you do not allow should desire one. After all, who is to a labourer to spend 50 cents on toddy decide who is fit and who is not fit to he will spend $2 on beer. So, under­ consume a particular drink at a parti­ standing human weakness and being cular time at a particular place? human, we say that if a man wants to He also stated that there were a drink liquor let him drink the cheapest number of illicit liquor shops in town. liquor, do not force him to enrich the If that is the case, I think it is his capitalists' bank account by forcing duty as a law giver of this country to him to drink beer. What the M.I.C. supply this information to the relevant could have done, if they genuinely authorities, i.e., either a senior Customs believe that toddy should be banned, officer or the Police, and I hope he will and that it can be banned, would have have no hesitation in complying with been to take a firm stand in this House my advice at the soonest practicable as men of honour instead of trying to time. cover their shame by putting up false excuses here. Question put, and agreed to. 1437 8 AUGUST 1961 1438 Bill accordingly read a second time Enche' Tan Phock Kin: That is and committed to a Committee of the exactly the fear I had when I looked whole House. at this particular clause. In every Bill, House immediately resolved itself as far as this House is concerned we into a Committee on the Bill. must be clear as to what power the Minister is seeking. I personally feel Bill considered in Committee. that it is wrong for the Minister to give (Mr. Speaker in the Chair) an impression to this House that this particular clause is going to be utilised Clauses 1 to 15 inclusive ordered to for purposes of assisting this particular stand part of the Bill. class of manufacturers of tobacco by manual means, whereas his intention Clauses 16 to 19— was to apply this power, if given to him, to other classes. What constitute Enche' Tan Phock Kin (Tanjong): the other classes, we in this House are Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to seek a in no position to know now, and even clarification from the Honourable the the Minister is in no position to tell us Minister of Finance on Clause 16 (2). what his intention is. So, as far as this In the course of his speech, the Honour­ exemption is concerned, it is my con­ able the Minister has explained to this tention that this House should not give House that in regard to Clause 16 (2) far reaching powers to Ministers, it is a general provision giving the because if the Minister is going to ask Minister the power to exempt, subject us to grant him powers to grant exemp­ to such conditions as he may deem fit tion without even telling us to what to impose, any class of persons from class or purpose such powers will be the provisions of sub-section (1). In the used, then I am afraid the provisions course of his explanation he mentioned of this Bill will be a bit far-fetched that the intention of this particular clause because in asking us to approve this is to grant exemption to manufacturers Bill we are not being told how such of tobacco by manual means who powers are going to be utilised. So, in employ not more than three persons. If the light of the explanation, and unless we compare this particular Clause with the Minister can give me clarification Clause 18 which makes similar exemp­ as to his intention, I personally oppose tion to registered medical practitioner, this, and I propose to move an amend­ registered pharmacist and qualified ment to this particular sub-clause by chemist, we find that Clause 18 is deleting the words "any class of specific: it mentions these three classes persons" and substituting therefor the of people specifically, whereas Clause following words, 16 (2) gives the Minister general powers. I shall therefore be grateful if the "manufacturers of tobacco by manual means Minister can clarify as to the reasons who employ not more than three persons" why Clause 16 (2) is set out in general So, the amended sub-clause will read terms as compared with Clause 18 as follows— which is set out in particular terms. "The Minister may by order exempt, subject to such conditions as he may deem Enche' Tan Siew Sin: Mr. Speaker, fit to impose, manufacturers of tobacco by Sir, it is true that I stated in my speech manual means who employ not more than that it is the intention of the Govern­ three persons from the provisions of sub­ ment to exempt this particular class of section (1)." tobacco manufacturers, but the Honour­ If the Minister is of the view that he able Member would probably appre­ would like to include other classes, ciate that it is necessary in this sort of then it is for him to suggest to this legislation to give the Minister a general House and I am quite prepared to power of exemption. The class to which incorporate whatever specific sugges­ I referred to in my speech is only one tions he may have into my amendment. of the classes which I may have to exempt in due course, but it does not Mr. Speaker: I must draw the atten­ necessarily follow that it is meant for tion of the Honourable Member to that class and that class only. Standing Order 57 which has been 1439 8 AUGUST 1961 1440 * amended at the last meeting. The nance, for example, contains a similar amendment to S.O. 57 (2) says— section, Section 13, which reads as "At least one day's notice of any proposed follows: amendments shall wherever practicable be "The Minister of Finance may by order given." exempt, subject to such conditions as he Although the words "wherever practic­ may deem fit to impose, any class of goods able" leaves it to my discretion, I or persons from the payment of the whole or any part of any customs duty which would like every Honourable Member may be payable." to remember this amendment and give one day's notice of any proposed Honourable Members will note that amendment in order to enable the this section is so widely worded that in Minister to study the proposed amend­ theory I could tomorrow, for example, ment. That is the idea, and not because say that there will be no more import I won't accept it or not—I can always duty payable on tobacco, which yields give my ruling then and there. In about $100 million a year, without future it will, therefore, be better to reference even to the Cabinet. But, of comply with the provisions of Standing course, in practice it does not work out Order 57. that way.This sort of power is necessary, because from time to time you get I can allow you this time, but I hope cases where it is necessary, in order to next time you will remember the avoid hardship, for this power to be amendment to this Standing Order. used, and so it is with this particular Enche' Tan Phock Kin: Mr. Spea­ clause. If this clause is amended in the ker, Sir, may I rise on a point of manner suggested by the Honourable clarification on this particular point. Member, it will mean that in future it Adherence to this particular Standing will not be possible for the Government Order is impossible because of the to exempt any other class of persons fact that the Bill was only circularised even though there is hardship without yesterday. So it is well-nigh impossible coming to this House again, and there­ for me to give notice in accordance with fore the amendment suggested will in the Standing Order. fact restrict the power of the Govern­ ment to ease hardship where it is Mr. Speaker: Well, in future I hope necessary to do so. In the circumstances, Bills will be circularised more than one I am afraid the Government is unable day earlier and I hope Honourable to accept the amendment. Members will comply with this Standing Order, that at least one day's notice Dr. Lim Swee Aum (Larut Selatan): should be given of any proposed Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Honourable amendments. Minister has explained why, from his Now I have accepted this amend­ point of view, it is necessary to have ment, and the amendment is to delete this power of exemption, but the the words "any class of persons" in Honourable Member from Tanjong has sub-clause (2) of Clause 16 and to sub­ objected to these wide powers and has stitute therefor the words "manufac­ now made an amendment to limit this turers of tobacco by manual means exemption to the manufacturer of who employ not more than three tobacco for consumption. persons". And then the other words in Sir, I would refer the House to the sub-clause are the same. I would Clause 16 (1) which says, "Subject to put this amendment to debate now. the provision of this section, no person Enche' Tan Siew Sin: Mr. Speaker, shall distill, ferment or otherwise manu­ Sir, I think the Honourable Member facture dutiable goods. Now distillation refuses to understand. There is nothing is one of the important parts in the unusual about this sort of general training of students of Science and dis­ power of exemption, because cases tillation of alcohol is being taught in will occur in the future when it will be Form Six Science and also in the necessary for the Minister to exempt University, so all these students would, certain classes of persons in order to if the Minister of Finance does not have avoid hardship. The Customs Ordi­ the powers of exemption, each have to 1441 8 AUGUST 1961 1442 get a licence to distill alcohol otherwise unqualified powers, so much so that we, they would not learn Chemistry, or I particularly, are fearful of the because Clause 18 only says that fact that it may not be utilised towards "nothing in this Act shall apply to any assisting people who are suffering from distillation of dutiable goods by a regis­ hardship etc., but it may be utilised to tered medical practitioner, by a regis­ assist people who do not deserve tered pharmacist, or, made with the exemption and that is a very important approval of the Comptroller, by a matter if we give the Minister such qualified chemist". So students are not powers. The question of hardship is qualified chemists. This is an example quite arbitrary, and we, on this side, where it is necessary for the Minister may think that cases of such nature do to have such wide powers, and I am not deserve exemption, whereas the sure there are other instances in re­ Minister may have an entirely different search, take for example the Institute yardstick. So I personally feel that in of Medical Research may want to cases like this, it should be brought distill or ferment something and so if before this House if something to that happens there is no qualified chemist effect is to be done on the question of there at that time, surely the work hardship. The Minister will then be would be held up, in which case then restricted somewhat in making his the Minister would have the power to decision to exempt and if he is to be exempt. I am sure the Minister will guided, in that case, by general opinion not abuse the power as the Honourable or, perhaps, a court of law, as to deter­ Member from Tanjong is so frightened mine what constitutes hardship and to that he will. what extent. In the light of my explanation, I Enche' Tan Phock Kin: Sir, I am personally feel that the whole onus of afraid both the Honourable Minister this particular amendment lies in the and the Honourable Member for Larut Minister. I am merely putting forward Selatan have deliberately evaded the my proposals as a basis, and if he feels whole issue. I merely put forward that he requires a wider field, it is up my amendment solely in the light of to him to put forward his suggestions. explanation given by the Honourable Minister of Finance, and I have gone to Mr, Speaker: I shall now put the the extent of telling him that I am amendment to the House. quite prepared to accept any amend­ The amendment reads: ment or any further proposals to widen Delete the words "any class of persons" the class of persons concerned and not in sub-clause (2) of Clause 16 and to merely manufacturers of tobacco as substitute therefor the words "manufacturers the Honourable Minister of Finance of tobacco by manual means who employ says so; and if it is the intention of the not more than three persons" Honourable Member for Larut Selatan Question put, amendment negatived. to include other people, we can even Clauses 16 to 19 ordered to stand include the words "for scientific part of the Bill. purposes", that will embrace all the students who are experimenting. If the Clauses 20 to 87 inclusive ordered to Minister of Finance feels that it should stand part of the Bill. be extended further, I can even agree, Schedule ordered to stand part of the if he will only take the trouble to Bill. move an amendment to such suggestion, Bill reported without amendment: with "any cases of hardship"; but, as read the third time and passed. it stands, no mention whatsoever is made that this particular clause is going THE ADVOCATES AND SOLICI­ to be utilised to assist people who are TORS (AMENDMENT) BILL in hardship, who are suffering hardship as a result of the fact that exemption is Second Reading not granted. So I am afraid the Honour­ Dato' Dr. Ismail: Mr. Speaker, Sir, able Minister of Finance is merely I beg to move that a Bill intituled "an evading the issue. He merely wants Act to amend the Advocates and 1443 8 AUGUST 1961 1444

Solicitors Ordinance, 1947," be read a Enche' K. Karam Singh: Mr. Spea­ second time. ker, Sir, there is not much for me to say on this Bill. But being a practising Enche' Tan Siew Sin: Sir, I beg to advocate and solicitor myself, I would second the motion. like to say that it is very good indeed for our country that locally trained The Minister of Justice (Tun Leong people will now be entering the legal Yew Koh): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I do not profession. The time when we had to propose to detain the House for long go far away, to England, to get our over this small but very important qualifications with a view to admission amendment. to the Malayan Bar is now left behind, Sir, the Government is studying a and it is indeed a glorious day for our report prepared by a Committee under aspiring lawyers when our own Univer­ the chairmanship of a Judge regarding sity will produce them and enable them the structure of and qualifications of to pratcise in our courts. entry to the legal profession in Malaya. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I hope that, when A number of long term arrangements our University turn out enough will be necessary, including the setting graduates, adequate provision will be up of a Council of Legal Education. made by the Government to utilise In this, we must obviously run pari their legal abilities to the best welfare passu with the Government of Singa­ of our Nation. pore, and we shall shortly be entering into consultation with that Govern­ Question put, and agreed to. ment. Bill accordingly read a second time In the meantime, the first batch of and committed to a Committee of the law graduates from the University of whole House. Malaya have received their degrees, and have been reading in Chambers for House immediately resolved itself the last eight months. They have all into a Committee on the Bill. successfully undergone a post-graduate course in practical law procedure at the Bill considered in Committee. University of Malaya, and are just (Mr. Speaker in the Chair) about ready to enter the profession as fully-fledged advocates and solicitors. Clauses 1 to 3 inclusive ordered to stand part of the Bill. The purpose of this Bill, therefore, is to extend full recognition to the Bill reported without amendment: University Ll.B. The Government of read the third time and passed. Singapore has already done that. I am sure this will commend itself to all THE FINANCIAL PROCEDURE sides of this House as proof that we (AMENDMENT) BILL do not intend indefinitely to rely on foreign degrees, excellent though these Second Reading latter are. Enche' Tan Siew Sin: Mr. Speaker, At a later meeting during this session, Sir, I beg to move that a Bill intituled the Government will introduce another "an Act to amend the Financial Pro­ amending Bill to incorporate and cedure Ordinance, 1957" be read a establish a Council of Legal Education. second time. We shall also take the opportunity to make other changes, mostly at the As Honourable Members are aware, behest of the Bar Council. This Bill the financial provisions of the Consti­ is, therefore, an interim one so that the tution introduced radical changes in the young men from the University will be financial structure of the Federation able to embark without delay on their and these were brought into force lucrative careers, and I am sure that together with the provisions of the members of the learned profession will Financial Procedure Ordinance, 1957, welcome them in their midst. with effect from 1st January, 1958. 1445 8 AUGUST 1961 1446 The new financial system has now falls. It is, of course, the responsibility been in operation for just over three of the Minister, within the approved and a half years, and it is natural that, policy of the Government, to say what as a result of experience of its working, shall be done by the department it should appear desirable to introduce concerned. a number of changes and improve­ ments. The Bill which is before the It is, on the other hand, the House has been prepared after very responsibility of the Controlling Officer careful consideration and discussion to ensure that all necessary financial with the State Governments and with steps have been taken to enable that the Auditor-General as well as with the policy to be carried out as economically various authorities of the Federal and efficiently as possible and, in the Government. In accordance with event such steps not having already paragraph (f) of Clause (4) of Article being taken, to advise the Minister as 108 of the Constitution, consultation to what is necessary to be done before has been carried out with the National the policy can be carried out. Every Finance Council, which consists of Controlling Officer is directly answear- representatives of all the State Govern­ able to the Treasury and to the Public ments as well as those of the Federal Accounts Committee of this House for Government, and the agreement of the proper carrying out of these duties. that Council to the terms of the draft He may, of course, delegate some of Bill was obtained on 9th June last. his duties to the officers under his The Bill contains a number of minor control, but the Bill provides that the changes which are sufficiently explained extent of any such delegation shall be in the explanatory statement attached properly prescribed so that the chain to it, and I will deal now only with and sphere of responsibility are clear. the more substantial amendments I would add that these new Clauses do which are being introduced. not introduce any new financial prin­ ciple into the administration of the In my Budget speech last Decem­ Government nor do they affect in any ber, I explained the system of Control­ way the responsibility of Ministers to ling Officers which was being Parliament, but merely clarify the introduced in connection with the 1961 existing principles of administration. Estimates. It is now proposed to give I feel that they will be of value in this system statutory backing and for inculcating a deeper sense of finan­ this purpose new Sections numbered cial responsibility throughout the 15A in respect of the Federal provi­ Public Service. sions and 29A in respect of the State provisions are included in Clauses 6 Clause 10 of the Bill introduces an and 15 of the Bill. These Sections set amendment to Section 24 of the out the responsibilities of the officers Ordinance which seeks to ensure that, who are designated Controlling Officers as far as possible, any surplus monies in respect of each Head of the held by the State Government should Estimates and make it clear that these be invested locally. It requires that the responsibilities extend not only to authority of the Treasury be obtained controlling the expenditure under that before such monies are invested other­ Head but also to all aspect of the finan­ wise than on deposit in licensed banks cial supervision relating to the depart­ in the Federation or in securities issued ment or service for which the Head by the Government of the Federation. provides. The purpose of the provision is to enable the Minister of Finance to I wish to stress that within the ensure that the Federation has the Government machine, this respon­ first opportunity of putting to good sibility for financial management is use any surplus funds which may be exercisable by the Controlling Officer available to the States. This provision separately from the policy respon­ has been accepted by the State Govern­ sibility which resides in the Minister ments and I am sure Honourable under whom the department or service Members will agree that in view of the 1447 8 AUGUST 1961 1448

large sums of money which the Five- Sir, I beg to move. Year Development Plan requires the Federal Government to spend in the The Minister of Transport (Dato' States, such a provision is eminently Sardon bin Haji Jubir): Sir, I beg to justifiable. I should perhaps make second the motion. brief mention of the amended defini­ Question put, and agreed to. tions which will result from the pro­ Bill accordingly read a second time posals in Clause 2 of the Bill. Of these, and committed to a Committee of the items (a) and (c) are sufficiently explained in the Explanatory State­ whole House. ment. Item (b) alters the definition of House immediately resolved itself term "State financial authority", which into a Committee on the Bill. at present reads "the principle officer Bill considered in Committee. or person in charge of the financial affairs of a State". There is a State (Mr. Speaker in the Chair) Financial Officer in every State who exercises the functions of the State Clauses 1 to 5 inclusive ordered to financial authority under the Ordi­ stand part of the Bill. nance, and the purpose of the deletion of the words "or person" as now Clauses 6 to 10— proposed in the Bill is to put it Enche' Tan Phock Kin: Mr. Spea­ beyond doubt that this officer is the ker, Sir, I rise to seek an explanation authority referred to. from the Honourable the Minister of Finance with reference to Clause 9. In conclusion, I would say that the Clause 9 seeks an amendment to fact that so few amendments of any Section 22, and it is on the question substance need to be introduced in the of the definition of the word "bank" Financial Procedure Ordinance after that I would like an explanation. The more than three years' experience is a word "bank" according to this Amend- tribute to the skill and foresight of ment Bill means "any office or branch those who drafted the original Ordi­ in the Federation of a bank licensed nance. In general our financial adminis­ under the provisions of the Banking tration is, I feel, one of which we can Ordinance, 1958". The explanation be proud. It is natural that from time which I require in this connection is to time matters should be brought to with regard to the position of Bank the notice of the Public Accounts Negara Tanah Melayu. If one looks up Committee by the Auditor-General at the Constitution of the Bank Negara which indicate that improvements are Tanah Melayu, one will realise that one necessary, and in such cases action is of the objects of the Bank Negara is speedily taken to put matters right. to be a banker to the Government. There is no lack of financial awareness Under the circumstances, one would amongst the Public Service as a whole, expect that all Government funds and, I am happy to say, a steady should be banked in Bank Negara improvement is taking place in the Tanah Melayu. However, I regret to quality of the Government's financial note here that there is no specific control. provision in this Bill to make Bank Negara a banker not only for the As the development of the country Malayan Government but also for the progresses, which under our present State Governments, and I would think development plans it is doing by leaps that a more logical provision in this and bounds, it is natural that more particular section would be to define revenue is collected and more money "bank" as "Bank Negara Tanah spent. The problems of financial Melayu or any of its branches where administration grow more and more such branches exist in the various complex. It is therefore essential that States". The Minister may argue that in we have a sound and workable finan­ respect of Bank Negara there may be cial procedure, and that our financial no branches in some States like Perlis laws are regularly kept up to date. and, perhaps, in some small States. So 1449 8 AUGUST 1961 1450 in that case provision should be made which I think he himself agrees—I am to the effect that any office or branch not quarrelling over the money in the of the Federation bank licensed under States that cannot be banked in Bank the provisions of the Banking Ordi­ Negara—is that as far as this Bill nance, 1958, shall apply. So my con­ stands at the moment they are at tention is—and I am surprised too— liberty either to bank with Bank that the Minister of Finance did not Negara or any other bank. I am asking see to it that as far as Government him as to why he has acted so incon­ funds are concerned—not only Govern­ sistently: the Objectives of Bank ment funds but also, I should say, funds Negara state very clearly that it is going of all Local Authorities or statutory to be the banker for the Government, bodies—the funds should be banked and why is it that no provision is made with Bank Negara Tanah Melayu, and to compel State authorities to bank it is only under circumstances of with Bank Negara, if it is possible? If inconvenience or impossibility and it is not possible, then they can bank when branches of Bank Negara do not with other banks. exist in small towns and villages, that provision should be made for it to be I am also surprised that the Honour­ banked in other banks licensed under able Minister is so ignorant even of the Banking Ordinance. However, I Bank Negara itself, of which he should regret to note that nothing of this sort be well aware of. He told this House is being provided here, and I shall be that Bank Negara has only one office very grateful if the Honourable the in Kuala Lumpur when anybody, any Minister of Finance can enlighten this layman, if we ask him, will be able to House on this matter. tell that Bank Negara has established a Branch in Penang—and even the Enche' Tan Siew Sin: Mr. Speaker, Minister of Finance is not aware of it. Sir, I am afraid, that the Honourable This is most deplorable, and, coming as Member as usual has not bothered to it does from a man who professes to be study this Bill properly. If he will look so knowledgeable, it is even more at Section 22 of the Financial Proce­ surprising. So, I am afraid, Sir, that the dure Ordinance, he will find that in Honourable Minister of Finance, in his Part IV of that Ordinance which relates attempt to try to explain, has not to State financial and accounting proce­ succeeded in explaining anything at all. dures. This Bill does not prevent the In fact, he has demonstrated his utter State Governments, who will be affected confusion over the whole issue. I may by this clause, from banking with Bank point out, and I think every Member Negara, but it does enable them to in this House will agree with me, that deposit their surplus in commercial if we are going to make Bank Negara banks licensed in the Federation. It a real success as bankers for the must be appreciated that Bank Negara Government, then it is our primary has got only one office and that is duty to persuade, and if possible to do in Kuala Lumpur and it is rather it by legislation, every State authority— difficult for the other States to bank I venture to go further and suggest that with Bank Negara. Under the present even statutory bodies and local govern­ law they in fact can bank with any ment authorities should be asked to bank in the world, but this Bill will bank with Bank Negara. It is only by now restrict their power to bank only so doing that we can make Bank in banks which are licensed in the Negara a real success as bankers for Federation, and I think it has been the Government. extremely reasonable on their part to have agreed with this restriction of The Minister of Finance went on to their powers, which is in fact a vast talk about utilisation of the funds. He improvement on the existing law. should have realised that if all the money is banked in Bank Negara, there Enche' Tan Phock Kin: I am rather is a greater possibility of the funds surprised at the statement of the being utilised more fruitfully by the Honourable Minister of Finance. The Government. So, in the light of my point which I stressed—and a point on explanation, I hope the Minister will 1451 8 AUGUST 1961 1452 not be obstinate and I hope he will anomaly of paying wages where none himself agree to amend this particular was earned according to trade practices. section so as to make provisions in the The Weekly Holidays Ordinance light of my suggestions. provides for compulsory weekly holi­ days to employees in shops and has Mr. Speaker: (To Enche' Tan Slew adequate safeguards to see that, as a Sin) Do you wish to say anything? result of this provision, the wages of Enche' Tan Slew Sin: No. labourers and shop assistants are not reduced. However, before these provi­ Clauses 5 to 10 ordered to stand part sions came into force there were of the Bill. certain classes of daily-rated employees Clauses 11 to 18 inclusive ordered to who had been given weekly holidays- stand part of the Bill. without pay. This was accepted as the normal trade practice. The Ordinance, Bill reported without amendment: as it stands, appears to require pay­ read the third time and passed. ment for these employees which is not the intention. The amendment would THE WEEKLY HOLIDAYS remove this ambiguity. The amendment (AMENDMENT) BILL in Clause 4 (2) ensures that employees Second Reading receive their full day's wages if and Enche' V. Manickavasagam: Mr. when an additional half holiday is declared by the Minister to be com­ Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that a Bill intituled "an Act to amend the Weekly pulsory for any particular class of Holidays Ordinance, 1950" be read a shops. second time. Clause 5 seeks to amend section 9 of The purpose of this Bill is to the Ordinance so as to bring the clarify certain provisions of the Weekly designations of officers in line with the Holidays Ordinance, to widen its titles used in the Employment Ordi­ application and to regularise the desig­ nance. nations used in the Ordinance with the I might add, Sir, that these amend­ Employment Ordinance, 1955. ments have been thoroughly studied and are supported by the National The present definition of the term Joint Labour Advisory Council, which "unassisted shop" includes a shop run consists of employers' and workers' by two or more proprietors, which is representatives. not the intention of the Ordinance as originally conceived. The amendment Sir, I beg to move. in Clause 2 restricts the term "un­ Enche' Abdul Hamid Khan: Sir, I assisted shop" to a shop run by its beg to second the motion. . sole proprietor with the assistance of either the spouse or one of the children, Question put, and agreed to. and so excludes any shop that is owned Bill accordingly read a second time and operated by more than one pro­ and committed to a Committee of the prietor. whole House. Clause 3 seeks to rectify an omission House immediately resolved itself in the Weekly Holidays (Amendment) into a Committee on the Bill. Ordinance, 1957, when the benefit of Bill considered in Committee. the five holidays a year over and above the weekly holidays was extended to (Mr. Speaker in the Chair) employees in the premises listed in the Clauses 1 to 5 inclusive ordered to Schedule to the Ordinance. The present stand part of the Bill. amendment will extend this benefit to Bill reported without amendment: employees in restaurants and theatres. read the third time and passed. The amendment in Clause 4 (1) has the effect of safeguarding wages from Mr. Speaker: I think this is a being reduced when weekly holidays suitable time to suspend the sitting. are given and also removes the Sitting suspended at 12.55 p.m. 1453 8 AUGUST 1961 1454

Sitting resumed at 2.30 p.m. The Bill is a straightforward one, and I do not propose, therefore, to (Mr. Speaker in the Chair) elaborate on this Bill except to point out that the purpose of this Bill, as THE WAR RISKS (GOODS) I have already indicated, will not be INSURANCE FUND (WINDING achieved until Clauses 8, 9 and 10 UP) BILL come into force. These Clauses, how­ ever, will come into force only when Second Reading all outstanding claims, if any, have been met and the report and audited Enche' Tan Siew Sin: Mr. Speaker, statement of accounts have been duly Sir, I beg to move that a Bill intituled published in the Gazette. As soon as "an Act to provide for the winding-up these Clauses are brought into force, of the War Risks (Goods) Insurance the Principal Ordinance will be Fund," be read a second time. repealed in accordance with Clause 11, As Honourable Members are aware, and the winding of the Fund will then a Joint Fund for the then Federated be complete. I may also explain that Malay States and this Bill takes account of the fact that for the purpose of insuring goods the office of the Fund is in Singapore, against war risks was established by and the liquidation of the Fund can section 9 of the War Risks (Goods) most conveniently be performed there. Enactment, 1941 (F.M.S. No. 6 of Sir, I beg to move. 1941), which came into force on 3rd March, 1941. Section 10 of this Enact­ Enche' V. Manickavasagam: Sir, I ment provides for a Board of Manage­ beg to second the motion. ment of the Fund. The application of Question put, and agreed to. the Enactment was extended through­ Bill accordingly read a second time out the Federation by the War Risks and committed to a Committee of the (Goods) Insurance Ordinance, 1948 whole House. F.M.S. No. 24 of 1948). House immediately resolved itself The work of the Board has been into a Committee on the Bill. completed and the only remaining function of the Board is to publish Bill considered in Committee. the weekly statements of sums received (Mr. Speaker in the Chair) into and paid out of the Insurance Fund until the Fund is wound up. Clauses 1 to 12 inclusive ordered to There is no balance in the Insurance stand part of the Bill. Fund, and there has been no receipt Bill reported without amendment: or payment since 5th April, 1957; and read the third time and passed. no further receipts or payments are expected. The Fund has no assets. The THE EMPLOYMENT (AMEND­ office and accounts of the Fund are, MENT) BILL however, in Singapore; and since the purpose of the Fund has been accom­ Second Reading plished, the Government of Singapore Enche' V. Manickavasagam: Mr. has proposed that action should be Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the Bill taken to wind up the Fund. intituled "An Act to amend the The Federation Government has Employment Ordinance, 1955" be read agreed to this proposal, and the a second time. purpose of this Bill is to bring to an The aims of the proposed amend­ end the work of the Board in accord­ ments to the Employment Ordinance ance with Clause 8 and to repeal the are briefly to stipulate the minimum War Risks (Goods) Insurance Enact­ rate of overtime to be paid to workers; ment, 1951, and the War Risks (Goods) to add penalty clauses under which Insurance Ordinance, 1948. Parallel offenders of the present law, or the law legislation will be enacted by the State as amended, regarding hours of work of Singapore. and minimum rates of overtime can be 1455 8 AUGUST 1961 1456 prosecuted; and to require that pro­ it would seem, give the protection to ceedings instituted before the Commis­ the worker that was originally intended. sioner for Labour in a Labour Court Over 900 known contraventions within are withdrawn before a civil suit is a period of six months show an alarm­ commenced in Court, if the employer ing disregard of the law and warrant or worker wishes to bring such a suit the adoption of some measures. in Court before the proceedings in the Clauses 3 and 4, therefore, prescribe Labour Court have been proceeded with a minimum rate of 1 1/2 times the normal to judgment and satisfaction. rate of pay for work on the 7th day, and a minimum rate of 1 1/4 times the When the Bill for the Employment normal rate of pay for work in excess Ordinance was discussed in 1953, the of 48 hours or 56 hours as the case may Legislative Council appointed a Select be. A minimum instead of an absolute Committee to examine and report on rate has been prescribed, as an abso­ the Bill. This Committee, while re­ lute rate will place an unfair burden commending the adoption of the Bill on some industries while in others with certain amendments, was divided in its views on whether or not overtime higher rates could be paid. The amend­ rates should be prescribed in the Bill ments merely stipulate the minimum itself. It was the majority view that rate, and workers can still negotiate and overtime rates should be settled through obtain higher rates in industries which collective bargaining, or arbitration have a better capacity to pay. under the Industrial Courts Ordinance, Clause 5 seeks to correct what is or, where the workers are not effectively apparently a printing error. organised, by statute under the Wages Councils Ordinance. They considered Now, Sir, Clause 6 in the proposed that it was neither necessary nor desir­ amendment. Section 86 of the Employ­ able that uniform overtime rates should ment Ordinance, as it stands, gives be stipulated for all industries. How­ the impression that an employer or, ever, the Minority Report considered worker, having instituted proceedings that the Bill should provide a minimum for any breach of a contract of service rate for overtime work, especially in in a Labour Office under section 69 view of the fact that workers in the may not commence civil proceedings Federation were not fully organised to in any Court. The intention, however, effectively discuss and reach agreement is that the employer or worker should with their employers. The majority have the alternative to bring a civil opinion prevailed and the Bill did not suit in any Court even though his come to provide minimum rates of case might be pending in the Labour overtime. Court. To save unnecessary duplication of work for both the officers of the However, it appears that the mere Ministry and the Courts, Clause 7 stipulation of the days and hours of contains the proviso that the plaintiff work in the Employment Ordinance withdraw the proceedings instituted by has not placed the worker in a strong him before the Commissioner for bargaining position as was envisaged Labour before he actually commences in the Majority Report, nor have trade proceedings in any Court. It is clear unions been completely successful in that the remedy of a civil suit should negotiating and reaching agreement with be alternative and not concurrent. employers on overtime rates. For example, my Ministry carried out a The Employment Ordinance, as it survey of the effectiveness of sub­ stands, does not prescribe the penalties section (1) of section 59 of the Ordi­ for violations of the law regarding nance, which limits the hours of work hours of work. The Select Committee of a worker other than a shift-worker appointed to study the original Bill had to 48 hours per week, over the period felt that there was no necessity to 1st October, 1959, to 31st March, 1960. prescribe these penalties as overtime This survey brought to light over 900 rates are to be settled purely through cases of contravention of the law. This negotiations between the parties con­ section of the law does not therefore, cerned. However, as I had stated 1457 8 AUGUST 1961 1458 earlier the lack of penalties had led resting day. This is recognised in the to flagrant violations of this law and Jewish society by the saying that no we are unable to take such employers one shall work on the Sabbath Day. to task for these violations. It is now We find that today our daily-paid felt that the laws regarding hours of workers are penalised by the very fact work and minimum rates of overtime that they are daily-paid. If they do not stipulated in the present amendments work on a certain day, they are should be given "teeth", and penalties penalised economically by not being provided. Clause 7 therefore prescribes paid for that day. Mr. Speaker, Sir, penalties for employers who require we do realise that every worker in workers to work more than six days Malaya should have a weekly holiday, a week or more than 48 hours, or 56 yet, as this Bill is before us in this hours in the case of shift workers, House today, at the Committee stage without paying the minimum rates of we shall move to increase the provi­ overtime. sions of new section 58 (2) from one- The National Joint Labour Advi­ and-a-half times to two times, and new sory Council under my Ministry, section 59 from one-and-a-quarter to consisting of employers' and workers' two times. These are the amendments representatives fully supports these which will be proposed by us at amendments. The policy of the Govern­ Committee stage. ment regarding wages and conditions Mr. Speaker, Sir, there is one of work is to let these to be settled important factor that has been over­ by voluntary negotiation between the looked by the Government when parties concerned, but I am sure, Sir, bringing this Bill, and that is, although that this House will appreciate that the the normal wage is referred to both in present circumstances justify the the case of non-shift and shift workers, stipulation of minimum rates of over­ yet up to now we find that the time in the law itself. Government has not stipulated a Sir, I beg to move. minimum living wage for the Malayan workers. So, if the wages are very low Dato' Sardon: Dato' Yang di-Pertua, even if you increase them by one-and- saya menyokong. a-half or two times, they would still in times of financial stringency not be Enche' K. Karam Singh: Mr. Spea­ enough to maintain the worker. Here ker, Sir, we find that in other parts again we feel that it is in the national of the world, there is an attempt to interest and for the protection of our shorten the working day and the work­ working people that the Government ing week in order to allow the workers take upon itself the task of stipulating more time for leisure. But in Malaya a minimum wage. The Honourable the today the answer to the shortening of Assistant Minister has said that he is the working week is to increase the laying down one-and-a-half times and work for the last or the seventh day of one-and-a-quarter times as the mini­ the week by one-and-a-half times in mum rates of overtime and that he the case of a non-shift worker and leaves any increase to these in lucrative one-and-a-quarter times in the case of industries to negotiations between a shift worker—the rate of pay, Sir, employer/employee. But I would is one-and-a-half times the ordinary suggest that the Government stipulate pay in the case of a non-shift worker a minimum wage and then leave it to and one-and-a-quarter times the ordi­ the industries to negotiate a rise. This nary pay in the case of shift worker. is all the more pressing as we have Sir, we feel very strongly that our often heard from Ministers that we working class must be given a weekly have a very high standard of living in holiday so that they can have rest and our country. We ask the Government leisure at least once a week. We know that if there is such a high standard that down from the ancient times all of living in our country, why does it human societies had agreed that at not fix a definite minimum wage for least one day in a week should be a our workers? 1459 8 AUGUST 1961 1460 m

Regarding section 7, the Honourable 7th day and two times—double—for the Assistant Minister said that former­ those working for 48 or 56 hours. The ly there was no penal provision Honourable Member for Rawang is regarding employers who did not more liberal with the employers, and comply with this Ordinance. This he suggested two times and one-and- amendment proposes a fine of up to a-half times. So we can understand $500 for any employer who does not very well, Sir, the Honourable Mem­ follow the law as laid down in this bers of the Socialist Front not only do amendment. But there is another very not understand what is said in this Bill vital penalty that is required in the law, but they have tried to confuse them­ and that is this: we find that when selves. the workers have got some genuine Sir, this Bill has been thoroughly grievance and report the matter to the considered by the National Joint Labour Office their employment is Labour Advisory Council where there immediately terminated, i.e., they are are experts on trade unionism in this victimised just for exercising their country representing employers and right under the law. So, we desire workers, and they have given their some sort of protection for employees blessing to this Bill. The Honourable who are complainants under the Member from Damansara said that Employment Ordinance and who are workers in other countries work only victimised by employers as a con­ for a number of days in a week, and sequence of any complaints they have we are forcing people to work seven made. That is sorely needed. days in a week. If he reads more Enche' Liu Yoong Peng: Mr. Spea­ carefully, this clause 58 (1) states "no ker, Sir, we do not agree to the labourer shall not be required to work provision in this Bill that not less than on more than six days in any one one-and-a-half times of the normal week". We do not force him to work. rates be paid as overtime pay to When a worker agrees and wishes to workers who work more than six days earn extra money for his family, he a week. We think that it should be at works; and he gets one-and-a-half least not less than two times the times if he does the work. normal rate of pay, instead of one- The Honourable Member also and-a-half times. In the other case, suggested that there should be minimum where labourers are on a forty-eight wages set in this country. Sir, as we hour week, or in the case of shift have repeatedly stated in this House, workers on a fifty-six hour week, we it is the policy of Government to propose that it should be not less than encourage both sides to negotiate and one-and-a-half times of their normal come to agreement. Where we find that pay. wages are not paid properly, we set up a Wages Council and there is a council Unless overtime is paid in the case under the Wages Council Ordinance of ordinary workers two times more for shop assistants. I do not see any than their ordinary wages and in the sense, Sir, why we should bring in case of shift workers one-and-a-half minimum wages legislation, and in times their ordinary wages, we consider certain industries which are capable of it very unfair to the workers. It is paying more may try to reduce some­ really not enough to compensate them what, and those which cannot afford with the rates proposed in the Bill for to pay the minimum standard wages the extra time and extra effort they may close their industries and thereby have to put in. creating more unemployment. Enche' V. Manickavasagam: Mr. Question put, and agreed to. Speaker, Sir, I am surprised that the Bill accordingly read a second time Members of the Socialist Front are and committed to a Committee of the divided even in asking for overtime whole House. rates. The Honourable Member for Damansara said that he would want House immediately resolved itself two times for those working on the into a Committee on the Bill. 1461 8 AUGUST 1961 1462 Bill considered in Committee. Enche' K. Karam Singh: The argu­ ment of the Honourable Assistant (Mr. Speaker in the Chair) Minister really does not stand to very much reason, because he said he is Clauses 1 to 4— only fixing the minimum. Now, we are not questioning the fixing of the Enche' K. Karam Singh: Mr. Spea­ minimum. We are only questioning as ker, Sir, I propose to amend the new to where to fix that minimum, so we clause 58 (2) by deleting "one-and-a- say fix it at twice and actually the half times" and substituting therefor dispute between us is not as to fixing by "twice". it at a certain place, but at a higher Further, new Section 59 on page 2, place than what is fixed by the seventh line, by deleting "one-and-a- Government. quarter times" and substituting "twice" Mr. Speaker: I shall now put the therefor. first amendment. The proposed amend­ Mr. Speaker, Sir, as I had explained ment is to Clause 3, new Section 58 (2), whilst speaking before the Bill went by deleting the words in the fourth line into Committee, I had explained that "one-and-a-half times" and substituting one-and-a-half times and one-and-a- therefor "twice". quarter times are not sufficient as, Question put, amendment negatived. Mr. Speaker, Sir, if an employee worked on a seventh day, he would Mr. Speaker: Now, I come to the have got wages for one extra day— second amendment. The proposed that is the logic behind what we say amendment is to Clause 4 in regard and so that by getting twice the pay to the Amendment of Section 59 new on that day, even if later on he does sub-section (5) (b) by deleting the not work for another, that would not words "one-and-a-quarter times" and be a loss. substituting therefor "twice". Enche' V. Manickavasagam: Sir, as Question put, amendment negatived. I have said earlier, we cannot agree to Clauses 1 to 4 ordered to stand part the amendments. If he had carefully of the Bill. read the Bill itself, he would have Clauses 5 to 7 ordered to stand part noted that the clause he wants to be of the Bill. amended reads: "any labourer who with the consent of his employer works Bill reported without amendment: for more than six days in any one read the third time and passed. week shall be paid for such work on the seventh day at a rate of not less THE DISPOSAL OF FUNDS than " We have stipulated a (STATE OF PENANG) BILL minimum requirement, though a pro­ gressive employer could pay two times, Second Reading or one-and-a-quarter times, as the Enche' Tan Siew Sin: Mr. Speaker, Honourable Member for Rawang Sir, I beg to move that a Bill intituled wants—they are divided in what they "An Act to provide for the winding-up say. We have no objection, but what administration and disposal of certain we want is a minimum, in the first public funds known as the Sir Henry case, of one-and-a-half times and, in Gurney Memorial Fund, the Queen's the second case, a minimum of one- Hall Fund and the Merdeka Celebra­ and-a-quarter times. tions Fund, established in the State of Penang and for matters incidental Enche' Liu Yoong Peng: Mr. Spea­ thereto" be read a second time. ker, Sir, I did not say one-and-a- quarter times. The purpose of this Bill is to wind up the Funds known as the Sir Henry Mr. Speaker: I am not concerned Gurney Memorial Fund, the Queen's with that. I am concerned with the Hall Fund and the Merdeka Celebra­ amendment. tions Fund which were established in 1463 8 AUGUST 1961 1464 m the State of Penang during the period Sir, I beg to move. March, 1952 to May, 1957, as a result of contributions from the public at Tun Haji Abdul Razak: Sir, I beg various times. These Funds were vested to second the motion. in Committees known as the Henry Enche' Ismail bin Idris (Penang Gurney Memorial Fund Committee, the Selatan): Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya Queen's Hall Committee and the Mer- bangun menyokong Bill ini dan juga deka Day Celebrations Finance and saya mengalu2kan kerana wang dari- Supplies (Including Appeals) Sub-Com­ pada Fund ini akan di-untokkan bagi mittee respectively. mendirikan sa-buah Dewan yang di- The Sir Henry Gurney Memorial namakan Seri Pinang. Tuan Yang di- Fund was set up for the purpose of Pertua, sunggoh pun Dewan ini akan establishing a circulating library with di-namakan Seri Pinang maka saya branches to serve the whole of the suka-lah hendak mengeshorkan kapada Federation and also of providing youth Majlis dan kapada yang berkenaan training camps, centres and playing supaya bentok bangunan itu biar-lah fields. The purpose of the Queen's Hall berbentok Malaya supaya bentok itu Fund was to erect a concert and lecture sesuai kehendak dan berupa ke- budayaan Malaya dengan pendudok2 hall while the Merdeka Celebrations 2 Fund had as its objective the erection Malaya ini. Saya dapati ada bangunan of a permanent memorial to commemo­ Kerajaan, saya rasa satu bangunan rate the achievement of Merdeka. Pejabat besar di-Pulau Pinang hari ini yang berbentok bukan-lah sa-chara The sums raised by the respective Malaya bahkan bangunan yang 10 ting- Funds were found to be insufficient to kat atau 11 tingkat tinggi-nya itu tidak carry out adequately the purpose for ada langsong berbentok Malaya. Oleh which they were established and a com­ yang demikian saya mengharapkan mittee was set up by the Government supaya bentok Dewan yang di-namakan of Penang in May, 1958, to look into Seri Pinang ini biar-lah di-bentok sa- the possibility of pooling their re­ chara kebudayaan Malaya. sources and utilising the total sum obtained thereby for the erection of a Question put, and agreed to. building, Malayan in character, in Bill accordingly read a second time George Town to be used for purposes and committed to a Committee of the which will not constitute a departure whole House. in any major degree from the objects of these existing separate Funds. The House immediately resolved itself Committee recommended, and the res­ into a Committee on the Bill. pective Committees have accepted, that Bill considered in Committee. the combined Funds be used for the (Mr. Speaker in the Chair) construction of a civics centre to be known as "Dewan Sri Pinang". Clauses 1 to 7 inclusive ordered to In accordance with the wishes of stand part of the Bill. the Penang Government, it is now Bill reported without amendment: desired to take action to wind up the read the third time and passed. existing three Funds amounting to $211,231 in all and to utilise the money THE KIDNAPPING BILL available to build the Dewan Sri Pinang. Legal advice has been sought Suspension of Standing Order and it is considered that the most (Motion) satisfactory method of carrying out the Penang Government's intentions would Dato' Dr. Ismail: Mr. Speaker, Sir, be by legislation. Although the admi­ I rise to seek your consent under nistration of the Funds is not in Federal Standing Order 90 to move a motion hands, it is considered that Federal to suspend Standing Order 72 (2) for legislation is appropriate in view of the purpose of enabling the House to the fact that the item "Trusts" is in the take the second reading of the Kidnap­ Federal list of the Constitution. ping Bill today. 1465 8 AUGUST 1961 1466

Mr. Speaker: Permission granted. pay up ransom money with up to seven years imprisonment, with liability Dato' Dr. Ismail: Mr. Speaker, Sir, to a fine as well. We seek to give the I beg to move— Public Prosecutor power to freeze That Standing Order 72 (2) be suspended banking accounts, to intercept mail and for the purpose of enabling this House to proceed with the second reading of the telecommunications; to require a Kidnapping Bill forthwith notwithstanding Magistrate to remand an accused person that not less than five days notice has not into police custody. Finally, we propose been given. that the trial of kidnappers should be Dato' Sardon: Dato' Yang di-Pertua, brought before a Judge with two saya menyokong. assessors, and not before a Jury. I think it is only right that I should be brutally Question put, and agreed to. frank with this House and conceal Resolved, nothing. We are dealing with a situa­ That Standing Order 72 (2) be suspended tion which, if it deteriorates further, will for the purpose of enabling this House to strike at the very sinews of our form of proceed with the second reading of the democratic government. Honourable Kidnapping Bill forthwith notwithstanding Members will also be aware that the that not less than five days notice has not been given. Government of Singapore has intro­ duced parallel legislation, and for the same reason. THE KIDNAPPING BILL Firstly, may I say that this severe Second Reading measure has not been adopted by the executive without very serious heart- Dato' Dr. Ismail: Mr. Speaker, Sir, searchings. We considered all aspects of I beg to move that a Bill intituled "An kidnapping and its increasing preva­ Act to provide for the detection and lence in Malaya. The Cabinet has punishment of the offences of abduction, accepted the probability that we shall wrongful restraint and wrongful con­ be questioned on various counts, and finement for ransom and other related we accept that. We also believe that offences and for matters incidental those who query the proposal will have thereto" be read a second time. a battery of excellent, fair and valid Dato' Sardon bin Haji Jubir: Dato' arguments in their favour. We welcome Yang di-Pertua, saya menyokong. their views, and we shall probably agree with a lot that they will say. The Tun Leong Yew Koh: Mr. Speaker, point is that we are facing an extra­ Sir, I think all Honourable Members ordinary situation, and this extraordi­ will have read the press reports of the nary situation demands extraordinary proceedings relating to this Bill in measures. Half measures will not work. another place. I do not therefore propose to go into any very great As I have already said elsewhere, detail. I shall confine myself to a kidnapping in Malaya appears to be the general statement of the Government's monopoly of a small but vicious clique intentions which have already been in the Malayan Chinese Community. accepted elsewhere. As I said in another I hate having to say this, being a place, the Government has no hesitation Malayan Chinese myself; but I have to in admitting that this Bill is a highly say it, because it is true and a matter controversial one, and one which is of fact. One of the worst rots which likely to raise considerable comment. erodes Malayan Chinese society is the We seek to make kidnapping for existence of secret societies, many of ransom—I stress the words for which depend on extortion for their ransom—an offence punishable at worst income. I know that the extortion is with death, or at best with mandatory generally in the form of some sort of imprisonment for life with liability for protection money, but quite often it whipping. We seek to punish the agents takes the form of kidnapping, and this of kidnappers with ten years imprison­ we must stop. ment, likewise with liability to I think it is almost a truism that whipping. We seek to punish those who kidnappers are bullies. Bullies are 1467 8 AUGUST 1961 1468 generally cowards. By applying the for which our Bench is deservedly extreme penalty against these cowards, famous. If we had wanted to avoid we hope to intimidate them into NOT modifying the jury system, we could committing the crime of kidnapping. easily have limited the punishment to We have to shew them that the Govern­ life imprisonment, in which case there ment can be tough—very tough indeed. would not even have been assessors. We must shew them that we are in fact We have however felt it desirable that much tougher than they are, but that there should have been that safeguard— our toughness will be tempered by the the presence of assessors—and we have rule of law. They will be tried in the not hesitated to provide it. ordinary way, with one major modifica­ tion which I shall now describe. As I have said in another place, what we are doing is in no way We have thought it necessary to take revolutionary or without precedent. In the unusual step of abandoning the jury the United States—a very liberal nation system in kidnapping cases. We have indeed—kidnapping was made a capital done this with the utmost reluctance, offence a generation or so ago to cope but we have done it for purely practical with a spate of kidnappings. The States reasons. Our juries consist of seven were faced with a roughly similar persons; generally they are married and situation to the one which faces us in have children—say an average of four Malaya today. The Americans had the children. They also have close courage to pass stern laws, and these relatives—uncles and aunts, grand­ have paid off. In many of the States, parents and the like. There would thus kidnapping is no longer capital, for be at least some three-score persons law and order have triumphed. Let us connected with the juryman who would pray that this measure we are putting be subject to intimidation by the to this House today will succeed in like kidnapping gangs. If, on the other hand, manner, and that it will be possible for we have only two assessors, the number us to repeal this Act when it has been of people to be protected is very much shewn to have become unnecessary. I less—probably not more than about appeal to the Chinese Community, as fifteen or so. This protection is within the community most affected by kidnap­ the power of the police. Honourable ping, to refuse to pay ransom money Members must appreciate that kidnap­ in any shape or form. When the ransom ping gangs are well organised and are is not forthcoming, then will kidnap­ well financed. Kidnapping is big money, ping cease to become big money, and and if some extortion or intimidation so disappear. is necessary, the kidnappers will most assuredly turn on the heat as ruthlessly May I make one last point? Honour­ or unscrupulously as they wish. able Members will see that the Public Prosecutor retains full control over the I do not want it to be thought for investigations, and his fiat will be one moment that the Alliance Govern­ necessary at all times. I know in theory ment is disabused with the Jury system. that this sounds unsatisfactory, but in On the contrary, we think it is by and practice it has worked well under other large the best of all systems: but it laws. I doubt whether any Honourable cannot work if there is intimidation, Member could cite a case in which the and this we are determined to avoid. Public Prosecutor had been motivated I sometimes think we dwell a little too by wholly unprofessional considera­ much on the rights of the accused and tions. The Attorney-General is the tend to forget the public interest which titular leader of the legal profession, is involved. In this, I have the support and I am sure he has the confidence of Lord Goddard. If every kidnapper of his professional colleagues to see gets away with his crime, the public that justice is done. interest will suffer. But we are not in any way depriving an accused person I now ask this House to adopt the of his right of a fair trial—after all, Bill. My Honourable friend the Minister the trial will be conducted by one of of Internal Security will move a num­ His Majesty's Judges with all that care ber of drafting amendments at the 1469 8 AUGUST 1961 1470 Committee stage, but these are all by bringing in assessors there is any comparatively minor and will not affect lack of danger to the assessors; if there the main principles of the Bill. is danger to the jury, there will also be danger to the assessors and if the Enche' Zulkiflee bin Muhammad: Honourable Minister has said that Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya hendak jurymen have relations, children and berchakap sadikit sahaja. Yang sa- friends, so also would assessors. So, on benar-nya, saya bersetuju dengan Rang 2 this question of personal danger, Undang ini. Dan ada-lah menjadi although we admit that a jury, being harapan bagi kita supaya negeri ini seven, would have a larger circle com­ menjadi sa-buah negeri yang dapat prising relations, we would still ask the menchegah amalan2 melari dan me- Minister whether this reason is sufficient nyembunyikan orang yang di-sebut to warrant the doing away of trial by "kidnap". Tuan Yang di-Pertua, hanya jury and bringing in the aid of dalam penterjemahan "kidnap" ini ada assessors. sadikit tidak sedap kita membacha-nya, ia-itu "Rang Undang2 Tangkap Lari". I would now refer to Section 15 on Saya chuba menchari di-dalam page 6—Admission of Statements in Kamus—terjemahan dalam bahasa evidence. We find that Section 15 (1) Melayu-nya saya rasa "pencholekkan" is a very anomalous one and we can ada-lah satu perk^ra yang tepat bagi also say that it is a hotch-potch of so Rang Undang2 ini, sebab kalau "Rang many provisions. I will read the para­ Undang2 Tangkap Lari" pun tidak graph, Sir. It reads— chukup—ia sa-harus-nya "Rang Un­ "Where any person is charged with an dang2 Tangkap-Lari-Sembunyi" baharu- offence under this Act any statement, lah di-namakan "kidnap". Tuan Yang whether such statement amounts to a confession or not or is oral or in writing, di-Pertua, hal ini boleh-lah di-betulkan made at any time, whether before or after apabila di-terjemahkan. such person is charged and whether in the course of a police investigation or not and Yang menjadi soal kapada kita ia-lah whether or not wholly or partly in answer bahawa negeri ini sa-bagaimana yang to questions, by such person to or in the di-sebutkan oleh Yang Berhormat hearing of any police officer not below the rank of Inspector, whether or not interpreted Menteri Kehakiman tadi telah menjadi to him by any police officer or any other sa-buah negeri "pencholekkan"—telah person concerned or not in the arrest, shall menjadi2—dan hal ini kalau tidak di- be admissible at his trial in evidence and, ambil tindakan yang keras saperti yang if such person tenders himself as a witness, any such statement may be used in cross- di-buat oleh Kerajaan boleh jadi akan examination and for the purpose of mengugut kehidupan orang lain. impeaching his credit;" Tuan Yang di-Pertua, kita tentu-lah 2 Mr. Speaker, Sir, there are so many juga kasehan kapada orang yang things involved in this paragraph 15: mempunyai kerja "kidnap" ini kalau (i) any statement made by an accused hendak di-bunoh. Akan tetapi, pada whether such statement amounts to a fikiran saya ini sudah sa-patut-nya-lah. confession or not, (ii) whether the Kalau ia mengechilkan nyawa manusia, statement is oral or in writing, maka nyawa dia pun di-perkechilkan. (iii) made at any time, (iv) whether Saya menyokong usul ini dan ber- before or after such person is charged, harap supaya pengawasan dalam (v) whether in the course of a police pelaksanaan Undang2 ini dapat di- investigation or not, (vi) whether or perketatkan. not wholly or partly in answer to questions, by such person to or in the Enche' K. Karam Singh: Mr. Speaker, hearing of any police officer not below Sir, I offer comments upon the Bill, the rank of Inspector, and (vii) whether and I would point to certain sections or not interpreted to him by any police in the Bill which may prejudice an officer or any other person concerned accused person. The Honourable or not in the arrest shall be admissible Minister has touched on the question at his trial. Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is a of trial by jury and with the aid of very remarkable paragraph and it sessors. We do not know whether contravenes certain basic rules of 1471 8 AUGUST 1961 1472 criminal procedure and the law of of law. Although Mr. Speaker, Sir, I evidence. The first question "whether would say that the paragraph at the such statement amounts to a confession end of it says "such statement may be or not" is quite clear. But what is used in cross-examination and for the dangerous is this: "whether the state­ purpose of impeaching this credit", but ment is oral or in writing." This provi­ Mr. Speaker, Sir, are we going to deny sion is very dangerous and it will an accused person the benefit of his prejudice an accused person, because innocence? Are we going to use state­ what will be there to prevent any ments made by an accused person police officer from coming into court under very doubtful conditions against and saying that the accused made the him when he stands on trial for his statement to him? There is nothing to life? However heinous an offence a prevent a police officer from coming man has committed, when he stands on into court and saying that without trial for his life, we must not prejudice anything in writing at all. And in that his case and bring in statements to case what will happen is, we would hang him more easily. Mr. Speaker, be relying on the words of a police Sir, further on, any statement which is officer, and upon that police officer's made wholly or not, wholly or partly statement the life of this man may in answer to questions—even if a depend, because whatever the offence statement is prompted from an accused with which the man is charged his life person, even that is liable to be used is in the scales and we must provide against him in a court; but Mr. the greatest safeguards that any Speaker, Sir, I would say that that accused is not prejudiced, or that would be highly improper. But what justice is not done, or that injustice is escapes all reasons is this provision done, to this person. which says that "where any person is charged under this Act, any statement Then we come to the provision whether or not interpreted to him by a "such statement is admissible whether Police Officer", it is most odd, Sir, before or after such person is charged". even if a man gives a statement and When a person comes to court and even if that statement is not interpreted pleads not guilty, then this man is to him, even if we do not ascertain kept in police custody, and as a result what this man has said—and you of pressure being brought on him, he allow that statement to be brought in gives a statement. What reliance are court against him. He may not even ,we going to place on a statement given have said that, he may have said by an accused person after he has something entirely contrary to what is pleaded not guilty in court. That would contained in that statement, but still amount to an injustice and an abuse that statement is brought against him of the law because, up to now, after in court. an accused has given his plea, nothing that he says after that is admissible; Mr. Speaker, Sir, further in the para­ in fact, whatever he says after police graph, it says "that no statement shall investigation has begun is inadmissible be admissible or used as aforesaid if in our courts. But this section breaks the making of the statement appears down this rule to the extent of to the court to have been caused by admitting statements made long after any inducement, threat or promise the person is charged in court. having reference to the charge". This Mr. Speaker, Sir, whether in the course is a provision taken from our Evidence of a police investigation or not, the Ordinance, but, Mr. Speaker, Sir, we present rule, as contained in the may ask what is the value of this safe­ Criminal Procedure Code, is that any guard contained in 15 (a) if so many statement, even if it be in writing, is fundamental provisions of law have not admissible except for impeachment been contravened by section 15 (1)? of credit in any trial. After police What is the value of section 15 (1) (a)? investigations have begun, no statement And further we find in (b) which is admissible, but we find that this reads: "in the case of a statement made paragraph contravenes this provision by such person after his arrest unles 1473 8 AUGUST 1961 1474

the court is satisfied that caution is ment—I do not say entirely, I say in a administered to him in the following way—because we find that the Govern­ words or words to the like effect: ment has not made any attempt to "Do you wish to say anything? You are study the causes of kidnapping. In a not obliged to say anything unless you country where there are people wish to do so but whatever you say will be suffering where people are unemployed, taken down in writing and may be given in where people have a lot of dependants evidence" for whom they cannot provide adequate "Provided that a statement made by any person before there is time to caution him support, we find that these people will shall not be rendered inadmissible in turn to crime. I say that it is the res­ evidence merely by reason of no such ponsibility of the Government to caution having been given if it has been provide for all these people, to look given as soon as possible." after them when they are in need. And Mr. Speaker, Sir, the very reading before you can take upon yourself to of this part will show that there is no punish a man with death, you must see logic behind this provision, "provided to it that you have given that man that a statement made by any person every chance; that you have provided before there is time to caution him him with every opportunity to live a shall not be rendered inadmissible in proper social life; and that it is not the evidence merely by reason of no such Government's neglect which has turned caution having been given if it has him into an anti-social element. That, been given as soon as possible". An Sir, is the duty of Government. If the accused person gives a statement, the Government continues to turn a deaf Police say there was no time to give ear to the people who are suffering, a caution and then it is given as soon if it continues to close its eyes to the as possible, that is as soon as the striking contrast in the living conditions accused person has already given his and economic inequalities of the people statement, that means even if the of Malaya, then I think the Government caution comes after the statement by a has not done its part before it seeks person accused of kidnapping, that to impose this grave penalty on this statement is liable to be used against type of crime. I would ask this House, him. Mr. Speaker, Sir, having pointed I would ask the Government, to look out all these anomalies in this Bill, into the causes of crime before punish­ I would ask this House to re-consider ing the criminals, because the criminal this Bill so that the fundamental provi­ is only the effect of criminal conditions, sion of law that a man is innocent and of evil social conditions. It is our until he is proved guilty is not pre­ opinion that if you modify these con­ judiced in the case of offences of ditions, then the reason for crime is kidnapping. Mr. Speaker, Sir, my abolished. That is all I have to say. appeal is strengthened by the fact that the maximum penalty, that is the death Enche' Too Joon Hing (Telok penalty, is provided for the offence of Anson): Mr. Speaker, Sir, the intention kidnapping. of this Bill to provide deterrent sen­ Mr. Speaker, Sir, now I will touch tences, including capital punishment, on the Bill. Sir, although we realise that on conviction in respect of kidnappers kidnapping is a grave crime, we have or gangsters, who try to kidnap people to consider whether it is purely kid­ for ransom, is indeed worthy of support napping or kidnapping which results in by this House—and it is only with death. This distinction should be borne severe punishment that kidnapping may in mind. If death takes place in the be discouraged or suppressed in this course of kidnapping, it is murder. I country. If you refer to all the kidnap­ think we should be more lenient in the ping cases in the past, you would find case where death does not take place in that quite a few victims lost their lives the course of kidnapping. in trying to resist the kidnappers; some were severely tortured or killed when Mr. Speaker, Sir, the very fact that ransoms were not paid, and quite a this Bill has come to the House is, in a number managed to save their skins way, an indictment against the Govern­ by paying large sums of money as 1475 8 AUGUST 1961 1476 ransom to the kidnappers in order to the intention of this Bill, I support the obtain release after the police had purpose for which approval is sought .. ~ failed to apprehend . the kidnappers. from this House, and I support the Therefore, I for one do feel sure that contention of the Government that many of the Honourable Members of kidnapping is taking a very serious this House will agree with me that the tum in this country today. provision in this Bill of punishment However, as in all Governments and with imprisonment, as set out in Clauses in all lands, there are three bodies 4 and 5 of the Bill, for members of the necessary to successfully operate the victims' family who negotiate payments law-that is the legislature to pass it, of ransom, in order to obtain the re­ the executive to operate it, and the lease of the victims, is rather severe judiciary to enforce it. Mr. Speaker, and unjust. Sir, we can pass law, the Police can Mr. Speaker, Sir, no one in this try to execute it within that law and world wishes to part away with large the judges can pass sentence_s according sums of hard-earned money, unless.one's to that law. In Singapore a similar life is threatened with death and un­ Bill was approved and it has been law thinkable tortures while in the hands for some time, but one has only to of unscrupulous kidnappers. What look at the newspapers from time to can the poor members of the victim's time and one will see that the incidence family do when the police had failed to of kidnapping in Singapore is not etf ect any arrest of the kidnappers or reducing in ferocity, but, perhaps, obtained the release of the victims. increasing to a certain extent. There­ fore, I say that when we pass this law, Sir, in Clause 6 of the Bill, power is we should also seek from the people provided for the Public Prosecutor to of the Federation of Malaya their freeze the bank accounts of victims which may tum out to be the death fullest co-operation to combat this warrant of the unfortunate victims; for crime. It is very easy for us to say, unless the police is able to make arrests "We seek your co-operation." But and rescue the victims, they may be in what can we give them in return for danger of being tortured or killed by the co-operation they are going to give those merciless kidnappers, if ransoms us? What protection do we hand out to the people of the Federation and are not paid in time. It is very well to say that money should not be paid to the the victims of kidnappers? We have just been told by the Honourable the kidnappers, but imagine, Sir, the poor Minister of Justice that if a jury victim who finds himself confronted by system of trial was recommended for a kidnapper pointing a pistol at him this kidnapping offence, it will be and which might go off at any time. difficult to protect the relatives of the What guarantee can the Government jurymen, and yet I heard the astonish­ provide for the safe return of the ing statement that if there were victims, if ransoms are not raised and assessors, then it would be within the paid, due to the freezing of bank powers of the Police to protect about accounts? Therefore, Sir, I feel that fifteen people, the relatives of the these clauses are rather severe and I assessors. I think the nation would be think the Honourable Minister should shocked if it is really intended to mean look into them. I, for one, am against that the Police can only protect fifteen these clauses. people. I would have thought we have Enche' D. R. Seenivasagam: Mr. a much better Police force in this Speaker, Sir, any law to combat crime country. will, of course, receive the support of Mr. Speaker, Sir, what is necessary the People's Progressive Party of if, and I think there is no doubt, the Malaya. But any law when drafted situation is grave? Then what we must must be such that at all times the try to do is to try to organise volunteer rule of law itself will not be violated. organisations amongst the people of Therefore. at the commencement, may this country to protect themselves I make this quite clear : that I support against terrible crimes like kidnapping; 1477 8 AUGUST 1961 1478

and I think if the Government of this Mr. Speaker, Sir, in this country we country makes an appeal to set about have a Police force that just does not organising peace preservation corps, react fast enough. We have a case they will get the support of the people, where a millionnaire was shot dead at because the united action of the people lpoh. For twenty-five minutes the· can put down this crime much quicker special alarm fixed in his house was than passing legislation here. ringing from his house to the Police Station which is just a stone's thro.w Now, the Bill says, "Well, if you away. Nobody went there except a are a relative of a man who has been normal police patrol van which you kidnapped, you don't pay the money can get by dialling 999. What is the to the kidnapper: if you do so you purpose of a Police alarm specially will go to jail for a long term of fitted to a man's house-I suppose imprisonment." Now, what is the he pays special money for that-if you Police record in discovering kidnappers are going to get the same service by and releasing victims? On how many dialling' 999? And who goes there? One occasions has the Police been able to police constable in a police patrol van release persons who have been kid­ who does not bother to ask anybody napped? I cannot recall any, except, what has happened. He sees somebody perhaps, one or two times when the running, he chases after that man, and Police happened to be on the scene and minutes later the Police come in force, a chase was given: perhaps, the but the man is already dead lying on kidnappers and the Police exchanged the ground of his house. Is that the shots and the victims had escaped. protection we offer to the relatives and But after they had been kidnapped, I in the same breath we say, "If you pay. cannot recall any case in recent years you are going to jail for many years."? when the Police had been able to Therefore, I say. before we pass this .l discover kidnappers and free the Bill, let us take steps to enlarge our victims. Now, we say, "Don't pay Police force. and if necessary to tum anything, we have the power to freeze it into a special section of the Police your bank accounts." And if any force-Anti-kidnapping Squad or call relative pays any money, we say, "You it anything you like; but we must do are going to jail yourself." That is the something to instil confidence in the record of the Police. I support the public. Honourable Member for Telok Anson. What protection can the Police give to Mr. Speaker. Sir, today we .are living these victims? What guarantee can the under the Alliance Government. I Police give that the victims will not won't go so far as my learned friend, be murdered by the kidnappers? What the Honourable Member from Daman­ is the record of the Police in the past sara, to say that the Government is to in rescuing victims of kidnappers? I blame to a large extent for the pre­ say that the record is disgraceful, and valence of kidnapping in this country­ not a record on which a provision of ! do not suggest that. Criminals have that nature can seriously be said to be always been in this country. and I do reasonable and fair. People do not not think anybody can seriously say want their husbands, or their fathers, the blame lies on the Government's or their sons, to be murdered. Money shoulders. But times have changed. In may mean a lot of things, but life, 1953 and 1954, the Alliance Govern­ especially to the people of Malaya, ment was not in power in this country­ means much more. And I do urge the it was a colonial power-and signifi­ Government, if necessary, to expand cantly in 1953 and 1954 the question their Police force to such an extent of jury trial was raisecl in the very that protection can truly be given to Legislative Council of this country. The these relatives-and hence a reasonable strongest critics of the assessor system probability of the release of the were none other than the now Honour­ victims-then that law may be fair; able Minister of Justice and the now otherwise it will be unfair on the Honourable Prime Minister of this relatives. country, and it was they who said, 1479 8 AUGUST 1961 1480 "We want jury trial in this country"­ strongest words without mercy in 1953- and here I would like to refer to the 1954; and may I refer to what the - proceedings of the Legislative Council. Honourable Minister of Justice said in On page 1167 of Legislative Council 1953 and 1954? Says Mr. Leong Yew Debates Proceedings, March, 1953 to Koh: January, 1954, Sixth Session, the Prime "Mr. Speaker, Sir, a great deal has been Minister was speaking on the Bill, said recently both in the press and on the which was introduced by the then platform on the pros and cons of the Jury Attorney-General to amend the Cri­ System. It is not my purpose to repeat those arguments here. For good or ill, we minal Procedure Code; after agitation have been born and bred in this country was carried out by the people of this under a system of law which has its origin country condemning the assessor in the Anglo-Saxon Law. The Jury has been system at the Lee Meng trial, the considered to be its greatest product and its Attorney-General introduced on the finest flower. England has given to the world here report of the Select Committee a Bill heritage of political and religious liberty. to amend the Criminal Procedure Code. She has bequeathed to all the English At that time the Honourable the Minis­ speaking peoples not only her strong love ter of Justice and the Honourable the of freedom but also the safeguards for its preservation. It has been said that among Prime Minister were not sitting on the the priceless legacies that England has given Government Benches but were sitting to the world, the right of trial by jury is in the Assembly, and the leaders in the most valuable, and of all things in that Assembly meeting, who condemned England, the most English." the assessor system without hesitation, Mr. Speaker, Sir, an outright con­ were none other than the Honourable demnation of a Bill which was passed Prime Minister and the Honourable by the Legislative Council and which Minister of Justice. Here, I would like is today law in this country. Today to refer to a passage of a speech by the we are asked by those same .-, Honourable the Prime Minister when Honourable Gentlemen to say that he spoke on that debate. On page 1167 that law is good. Mr. Speaker, he says this : Sir, if that is not inconsistency, then I "The original Bill, section 10, at least do not know what is. But in fairness gives the assessors the right to state their to the Honourable Prime Minister, he opinion on the case and to say whether the said: "In the case of Emergency cases, accused is guilty or not. The Select Commit­ I am prepared to concede that trial tee, in section 11 which proposed amending sections 197, 198 and 199 of the State Code, by assessor may be all right." But the reduces the assessors purely to an instrument Honourable Minister of Justice never for giving an opinion, an opinion with which said that. But today we are not being if the judge does not agree, all he has to do asked to consider trial under the is to record that fact, in effect, it puts the judge in the position of the all-important Emergency Regulations. If we were, person, a sole arbiter; it puts in his hand then I would say, "yes, have your the power to sentence a man to death with­ trial by assessor," because there is out the concurrence of the assessors. One a marked difference. Today we are may well ask, if the judge possess such a power, what use will it be to have the being asked to give approval to assessor system at all . . ." trial by assessor system which was condemned in 1954 by these Mr. Speaker, Sir, again, ending up, same people who today form the the Honourable Prime Minister then Government-not in an Emergency trial, said this: but in a normal, ordinary criminal "I very strongly oppose this Bill on the trial in this land. Anybody charged ground that it is inconsistent with the trends under this Kidnapping Act, when it of thoughts today and principle of demo- becomes law, will have to go through cracy.'' a preliminary inquiry, just as in a Mr. Speaker, Sir, today we are asked murder trial today. The inquiry records to approve a Bill which contains a will go to the if he is provision that persons charged with committed for trial and then the trial capital offences shall be tried under the will commence in the High Court-a same system which the Honourable criminal trial under the Criminal Pro­ Prime Minister condemned in the cedure Code. If it was an Emergency 1481 8 AUGUST 1961 1482 trial, the procedure would be entirely because he could give reasons and his rasons are generally very convincing. The usual different. In an Emergency trial there thing for the Court of Appeal to do, after is no preliminary inquiry. The police having read the grounds of judgment and statements recorded by the Police are the records of the case is to say the Trial sent up to the High Court, and therein Judge who after having considered the lies the distinction which the Prime opinion of the assessors, he disagreed with them, and delivered the judgment. The Court Minister made in 1954—in an Emer­ of Appeal would not interfere with his gency trial he was prepared to concede decision. We do not deny that judges are an assessor system. And quite rightly upright men and that they are learned in so, because in an Emergency trial you law, but if they are to be judges of fact as do not have an inquiry by a Magis­ well—then I pity the accused person." trate's Court, and we know the number "Then I pity the accused person"— of Emergency trials that took place in and we are asked to pass a law on those days. Therefore, you could not which the Prime Minister said in 1954 possibly have preliminary inquiries. that he would pity the accused person. You had the records, they went up to Mr. Speaker, Sir, could there be any the High Court, and a trial took place. greater hypocrisy?—I ask in all sin­ Therefore, I ask the Honourable cerity. In 1954 the Prime Minister Mover, has the Alliance changed its said: "If you try a man under this law, policy on the jury system of which they then I pity that man", and today we were the greatest champions in 1954? are asked to give aproval to this very Have they changed their minds? Do same thing under the very same law. they now agree that those who said in Well, these records will live for ever. 1954 during that debate that they were Mr. Speaker, Sir, comment has been sitting on one side of the pool and made by the Honourable Member for shaking the ripples by their legs, of not Damansara with regard to police knowing what they were talking about, statement. I am sure we are aware that were right? Does the Alliance admit today there is provision in the Criminal that? Does the Prime Minister, does Procedure Code for an accused person the Minister of Justice agree that they to see a Magistrate and make a state­ did not know what they were talking ment or confession to him. But the law about in 1954? in its wisdom is very careful. The We are not in a state of Emergency. Criminal Procedure Code says that if If we were in a state of Emergency, an accused person sees a Magistrate and then laws of this nature may be justi­ he wants to make a statement or a fied. If we are in a state of Emergency, confession to him, the Magistrate shall the Constitution requires certain Acts record it and the accused person shall to be passed. Mr. Speaker, Sir, it may sign it, because his signature is an be said—"Well, what is the difference? indication that he knew what he said There is protection. From the judge­ and had signed the document. There­ ment of the court of trial you can fore, the law as it is today in the appeal to the High Court." Here Criminal Procedure Code thoughtj it fit again—may I refer to the Honourable to get the signature of the man who Prime Minister, or if I am challenged makes a statement to a Magistrate. I will refer to it at the Committee This provision in the Kidnapping Act stage—that protection was also given is not new. It was introduced into when that Bill was brought in 1954. I this country for the first time in the think I better refer to what the Hon­ Emergency Regulations, then in the ourable Prime Minister said when Prevention of Corruption Ordinance of commenting on the Attorney-General's 1950 and then into a few subsequent speech: "Don't worry, there is pro­ pieces of legislation and now into this. tection. The accused can appeal to the It is nothing new. But you will note Court of Three Judges". The Honour­ that although so many conditions are able Prime Minister said— required, the man who is alleged to make the statement is not required to "Now, automatic appeal, as I have said, sign it before a police officer. In other is actually no safeguard. It provides, if any­ words, we are prepared to trust the thing, a safeguard to the Judge from having his decision set aside by the Appeal Court, police officers more than we are 1483 8 AUGUST 1961 1484 prepared to trust our Magistrates in this at least once a week so that if country. Magistrates require the man he is assaulted in the police station, to sign it, but the Police Inspectors do or ill-treated, or if he is sick and not even require him to sign it. You nobody gives him attention, he will can trust the Police Inspector so much, have somebody to whom he can com­ you don't bother about it. Is that the plain, and that is the learned Magis­ state of affairs in this country, that we trate before whom he is produced. trust our policemen more than we trust our Magistrates? If not, some­ May I ask for an explanation or body explain to me at a later stage enlightenment at a later stage as to why why the law thought it necessary that it is necessary to give this extreme it should be signed before a Magis­ power to the Police to keep the man trate. But this law says it is not after one production of 15 days? Why necessary to sign such a statement can't he be taken, as in the ordinary before a Police Inspector. And whether law of the country, every seven days you like! it or not, there are bad Police to the Magistrate? What is the diffi­ Inspectors and good Police Inspectors. culty? I cannot see any—perhaps there There are Police Inspectors who would are—but we would like enlightenment place bullets in bicycles of innocent if it is so difficult or so dangerous to people from villages—proved to have take them once in seven days to the been done in the courts of Malaya. Are Magistrate. Some may say, well he can we still going to say, "Well, we trust communicate with a lawyer, but I tell them so much that there is no need for you he cannot communicate with a the accused man to sign it"? I say it is lawyer. I tell you that even today, in wrong, and I say it should not be this country, people charged with theft there. If you want to hang a man, of one fruit are sometimes not allowed hang him on a statement which he to communicate with lawyers or with signed, so that we can be at least fairly mothers, fathers or children. sure that he knew what he said and Therefore, let us not hoodwink that he wanted to say it. Time and ourselves by saying, oh, they can again in our courts of law this question communicate with other people. They has come up. Time and again state­ cannot—the only man the law gives ments of this nature have been rejected him a right, by virtue of law, to com­ by Judges, by jurors and by assessors municate is the Magistrate, once in on the ground that they are not satisfied seven days and you are now going to that they are voluntary or properly take away that right in this Bill. I made. But in many cases these oppose that part of this Bill because statements are accepted, because offi­ there is no justification for it. It should cial acts are presumed to have been be amended to meet the established properly done. Therefore, I support practice of this country, i.e., remand the statement made by the Honourable once a week so that if he has any Member from Damansara that this is complaint, he can make it through the a clause which should be reconsidered, proper authority. if only to amend it by saying that the accused person should have signed Mr. Speaker, Sir, then we come to that statement. the question of certain statements which are made by the Honourable Again there is a provision in this Minister of Justice when he spoke just Bill which would make it possible for now. He said that the situation strikes the Police to arrest a man, take him at the very root of democracy, that is before the Magistrate only once and the situation of kidnapping, as an then he can be locked up for 15 days offence or crime in this country. With on a remand order of a Magistrate. that statement, I agree; but I would The present law in this country says like to go further and say that if he that every 7 days a man shall be taken wants to uphold democracy, he must before a Magistrate. The reason is uphold it by legislation of which we simple, the reason is clear. A man can be proud, and not legislation of should be taken before a Magistrate which we will have to bow our heads 1485 8 AUGUST 1961 1486 in shame, because we deny the funda­ that the ordinary clerk must be sus­ mental rights of human beings to a pected? Just because he is a Public fair trial. I say, as the Bill stands, a Prosecutor, he is not to be suspected person accused under the Kidnapping if he attends dinners—not Bar dinners, Bill will not have a chance of a fair not dinners by his fellow professional trial, and, as the Honourable Minister men, but dinners with private people, said in 1954, he will not have a fair Why don't you suspect him? He is a chance of a fair trial and he will be a Public Prosecutor and he is above person to be pitied rather than to be corruption; but an ordinary clerk in a hanged by the neck, but if we have a Government Department, you suspect law which gives him protection, then he him because he has a glass of beer. We will have a fair trial and, if found cannot take things for granted, anybody guilty, properly hanged by the neck. can be good, anybody can be bad, and I hope that reasons and examples will Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Honourable not be asked of me in this House Minister of Justice said that, for prac­ because if they are asked, I will give tical reasons, it is not possible to have them, I have them and I will give them. a jury of seven; then he went on to May I end this by saying, I support speak of protection of relatives, that is this Bill on the intention of the Govern­ not and there can be no reason for a ment because it is the intention denial of a jury trial to these persons. expressed by the people of this country. One statement which the Honourable We must stop kidnapping. We must Minister made, I regret very much, and destroy kidnappers. We must hang that is the statement that if anybody them by the neck. I agree—but we in this House could say that any Public must do it fairly, we must do it in Prosecutor had been motivated by accordance with the established prin­ wrong conduct they could say so. I say ciples of justice known to us and in so—that some prosecutors in this which we have been born, in which we country have been motivated by wrong have been brought up, in which we motives. If I am asked to give the have been educated, and as somebody reasons, I can give them right now and said, like the flower of British justice. I prefer not to, but I say this—that We have been asked to destroy that where power so strong is given in the flower and replace it with what I do not hands of one individual, it is dangerous. know. We are being asked to pass a Power always corrupts. Where power law which the Prime Minister said "if can be distributed, that power should a man is to be tried under this law, be distributed. Where power is given I pity him". to one person, the tendency is to corrupt—I do not use the word corrupt Dato' Sard on: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I in a bad sense, I use it in a broad sense. was surprised at the learned Member Mr. Speaker, Sir, a person may be any­ for Ipoh mentioning about the moti­ body, may be a Judge, may be a Chief vated intentions of the Public Prose­ Police Officer, may be a Public Prose­ cutors, and some of the Legal Officers, cutor or he may be an Attorney- who had taken the chance of abusing General. Those are names, those their powers. But, I think, he, as a are officers of positions and respect, legal practitioner himself, knows that and in the normal course of events he is duty bound to report to the we do not say anything against Attorney-General anything of that those men. But time and again nature which had happened, and I am examples will arise, examples can be surprised that he should have uttered got in this country. A Government those words here to challenge the servant working as a clerk in an office Minister's motion. I would like to goes for a dinner in a contractor's commend to him that, if he has infor­ house. He is under suspicion. They mation of that sort, to please communi­ suspect him for having dinner with his cate it to the Attorney-General, or the contractor, but the Public Prosecutor Minister of Justice, or whoever is in goes for dinners every other night, charge of that Department, so that nobody suspects him. Why? Why is it something can be remedied, and not 1487 8 AUGUST 1961 1488

just to utter words in this Parliament, First of all, Sir, this problem is the where he is privileged. direct concern of this House because Kuala Lumpur, as the capital of the Enche' D. R. Seenivasagam: I will Federation of Malaya, is now the res­ utter it outside {Laughter). ponsibility of the Honourable the Dato' Sardon: I was surprised when Minister of the Interior. However, the he quoted all these allegations as a Ministry does not seem to be keen member of the Bar. I would like to to carry this baby—I mean, of course, emphasise to him that we are dealing the equitable and reasonable solution with a case which is of a special nature. of the squatter problem of Kuala He agrees that kidnapping is bad and Lumpur. I have known the Ministry it is spreading, and to find ways and to say that the matter of construction means to eliminate that offence that the of low-cost housing is a State matter. Government is trying its level best to Sir, we know that the previous Kuala have these cases tried quickly—and one Lumpur Municipality did not consider of the means of trying a man quickly the building of Municipal Flats in is to have assessors instead of jury and Kuala Lumpur a State matter. If the other means of trial. In regard to what­ Ministry now thinks so, why was it ever the Prime Minister said in 1958 so keen to take the responsibility for or 1954 or 1953,1 would say that times Kuala Lumpur? We, therefore, strongly have changed {Laughter), and surely we urge the Ministry not to shirk its res­ have to keep pace with the type of cases ponsibility over this baby. The Ministry we are dealing with and special must try its best to solve the squatter arrangements have to be made to meet problem in an equitable and reasonable the present circumstances. If the manner. In this respect there are three Honourable Member for Ipoh, who is main issues at stake: firstly, the a learned Member of the Bar, were to Ministry should enunciate categorically say that we should march with the its acceptance of the principle of "no times and let us see peace and order demolition without alternative accom­ reign in Malaya, there is no alternative modation"; secondly, the Ministry but to support the Government—and must initiate and implement a big the Alliance Government stand for scheme to increase low-cost housing, peace, order and prosperity. at least to the extent to meet the requirements of all squatters in Kuala Lumpur; and, thirdly, the Ministry should work actively in conjunction ADJOURNMENT with the State Government to imple­ Tun Haji Abdul Razak: Mr. Spea­ ment the housing scheme. ker, Sir, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn. Now, coming to the first issue in detail, we know that there are squatter Dato' Dr. Ismail: Sir, I beg to houses in Kuala Lumpur being demo­ second the motion. lished from time to time without ensuring that alternative accommoda­ tion is made available or provided; ADJOURNMENT SPEECH many of the squatter houses were built SQUATTER HOUSING years back, some before Merdeka Day and some even during the Japanese Enche' Liu Yoong Peng: Mr. Spea­ Occupation period. I consider town ker, Sir, I want to talk on a subject, planning a very important and essen­ which is of great concern to Kuala tial aspect in the utilisation of land in Lumpur. That is the problem of Kuala Lumpur; I also consider the squatter housing in Kuala Lumpur. I provision of sufficient and suitable am bringing this matter to the notice houses for the ordinary citizens, espe­ of the House, because the squatter cially the workers in Kuala Lumpur, problem of Kuala Lumpur is a long a very important and essential aspect standing one, and its solution has long in good town planning. To leave the been overdue. squatters whose houses have been 1489 8 AUGUST 1961 1490 demolished unprovided with alternative we urge is that the administration of accommodation is an indication of bad this law should be relaxed at present, or no town planning at all. This is a due to circumstances I have just men­ humiliating situation. It is an insult to tioned—that Government is not able the ordinary citizens of Kuala Lumpur. at the moment to provide low-cost Therefore, in view of the shortage of housing for the demolished squatter low-cost housing that the Municipality houses. Further, the Ministry need not is able to provide at the moment, there say that the Federal Government has should be no demolition of squatter not enough money, since it has been houses, except where the land is agreed that it is feasible to build a required for building needed and use­ house at a cost of less than $1,000 or ful public projects, in which case the thereabouts. Therefore, if such houses low-cost housing should be available are built in stages at the rate that is before squatter houses are demolished. not outrated by the unnecessary demo­ Sir, the Ministry may ask where lition of squatter houses, it should be would it lead to if more and more within the financial means of the squatters build houses. My answer is Federal Government to provide low- that as soon as the Ministry announces cost housing, bearing in mind, of categorically its acceptance of the course, the importance of this matter principle of "no demolition without to our capital and its citizens. alternative accommodation", then no The last comment I wish to say is new squatter houses should be allowed that some of the squatters may not be to be built. workers working in the town, they may be those who want to be farmers. So, Coming to the second issue, the in these cases, if they are given land Ministry should initiate and implement elsewhere instead of low-cost houses, low-cost housing. There are three out­ that should solve the problem of standing aspects of the matter. The squatter housing in Kuala Lumpur. first is that houses should be built Thank you. within the Kuala Lumpur Municipa­ lity, and as far as possible within the Dato' Dr. Ismail: Mr. Speaker, Sir, present Municipal boundary. Secondly, I should at the outset like to say that the rent of low-cost houses should be the Government fully realises the mag­ less than $20.00 per month for one nitude of the squatter problems in family unit; and the third principle Kuala Lumpur, and much considera­ is that the Ministry should see to it tion has been given to the method of that there are always sufficient low-cost dealing with it. houses built to meet the requirements of squatter houses pending demolition. Now, the Honourable Member has suggested a very important principle of Coming to the third issue, that the "no demolition without alternative Ministry should work actively in con­ accommodation", which he says should junction with the State Government, be accepted. But he should consider I understand that the State Government that we must be quite clear in our has already six sites in view but that minds as to the implications of his the money from the Federal Govern­ proposal. ment is not yet forthcoming. Therefore, the Ministry should first see whether Now, the squatters are, in fact, these sites are suitable; secondly, trespassers on State land—that we whether the proposed houses are low- must admit; and if the principle of cost enough in the sense which I have "no demolition without alternative commented on above; and last but accommodation" was accepted, it not the least that the money required would obviously encourage further for building these low-cost houses are widespread activities by the squatters, liberally provided. because clearly any person who wishes to obtain a municipal low-cost flat or Sir, I hope the Minister in reply will dwelling could enter on State land, not merely point out the illegality of construct a squatter hut overnight and the squatter houses, because what thus become eligible for low-cost 1491 8 AUGUST 1961 1492 accommodation. At this juncture I of $30 per month. From these figures, would like to tell the Honourable therefore, it will be seen that the Member—I don't know where he got Government fully appreciates the his information from—that I have housing problem of Kuala Lumpur and never said that the building of low-cost is taking practical steps to deal with it. flats is not my responsibility. It is my responsibility, and I am not going to Finally, I would like to say a word shirk my responsibility—please under­ or two regarding liaison with the State stand that! Government in this matter since he has mentioned the problem of State Now, Sir, if we do as he suggested, Government. In this connection, I am it will surely lead to chaos. So, glad to be able to state that the Federal accordingly, there is a working arrange­ and the State Government are ment between the Commissioner of the actively co-operating in implementing Federal Capital and the District Officer, the low-cost schemes to which I have Kuala Lumpur, that when squatters referred. The State Government has are removed, they cannot expect any been most understanding of the con­ right to alternative accommodation. ditions which prevail in Kuala Lumpur That is the principle we must adopt. and has been most helpful in providing Now, this may appear hard, but on the land on suitable terms for low-cost other hand to adopt the principle housing. Furthermore, discussions have which has been suggested would not been going on between the two Govern­ only place a premium on squatting but ments regarding the development of it would also be impossible of fulfil­ squatter areas and the re-settlement ment, because alternative accommoda­ of squatters in alternative sites pro­ tion is probably not available. For perly developed with such essential these reasons, therefore, the Govern­ services as roads, water and light. So ment is unable to accept the principle you see that while we stick to the so eloquently put forward by him. principle, we do not neglect the squat­ Nevertheless the housing problems of ters as suggested. the Federal Capital are fully realised, as I said at the beginning of my To sum up, therefore, I would like speech, and the Commissioner is at to say that while the Federal Govern­ present undertaking large schemes of ment cannot accept the principle of construction of low-cost flats at Loke "no demolition without alternative Yew Road and at Sungei Besi Road, accommodation", we are fully alive to and for this purpose funds to the the present housing problem of the extent of $8 million have been provided Federal Capital; and, as I have in the Five Year Development Plan. indicated, I am taking appropriate Now, the Sungei Besi Road Low-cost measures to ease the situation; and in Scheme will provide 1,756 single-room this respect I am happy to record the flats at a rental which is estimated willing co-operation and assistance will be approximately $18 per month. which we are receiving from the State It is further hoped that the Loke Yew Government. (Applause). Road Scheme will provide some 450 two-room flats at an estimated rental Adjourned at 4.45 p.m.