House of Commons Public Administration Select Committee Good Government Eighth Report of Session 2008–09 Volume II Oral and written evidence Ordered by the House of Commons to be printed 9 June 2009 HC 97-II Published on 18 June 2009 [Incorporating HC 983-i-iv, Session 2007-08] by authority of the House of Commons London: The Stationery Office Limited £0.00 The Public Administration Select Committee The Public Administration Select Committee is appointed by the House of Commons to examine the reports of the Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration and the Health Service Commissioner for England, which are laid before this House, and matters in connection therewith, and to consider matters relating to the quality and standards of administration provided by civil service departments, and other matters relating to the civil service. Current membership Dr Tony Wright MP (Labour, Cannock Chase) (Chairman) Mr David Burrowes MP (Conservative, Enfield Southgate) Paul Flynn MP (Labour, Newport West) David Heyes MP (Labour, Ashton under Lyne) Kelvin Hopkins MP (Labour, Luton North) Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger MP (Conservative, Bridgwater) Julie Morgan MP (Labour, Cardiff North) Mr Gordon Prentice MP (Labour, Pendle) Paul Rowen MP (Liberal Democrats, Rochdale) Mr Charles Walker MP (Conservative, Broxbourne) Jenny Willott MP (Liberal Democrats, Cardiff Central) Powers The powers of the Committee are set out in House of Commons Standing Orders, principally in SO No 146. These are available on the Internet via www.parliament.uk Publications The Reports and evidence of the Committee are published by The Stationery Office by Order of the House. All publications of the Committee (including press notices) are on the Internet at http://www.parliament.uk/pasc Committee staff The current staff of the Committee are Steven Mark (Clerk), David Slater (Second Clerk), Pauline Ngan (Committee Specialist), Louise Glen (Senior Committee Assistant), Lori Verwaerde (Committee Assistant) and Shane Pathmanathan (Committee Support Assistant) Contacts All correspondence should be addressed to the Clerk of the Public Administration Select Committee, Committee Office, First Floor, 7 Millbank, House of Commons, London SW1P 3JA. The telephone number for general enquiries is 020 7219 5730; the Committee’s email address is [email protected] Witnesses Thursday 17 July 2008 Sir John Bourn KCB, former Comptroller and Auditor General, Sir Richard Mottram GCB, former Permanent Secretary and Kate Jenkins, former Senior Civil Servant Ev 1 Thursday 16 October 2008 Zenna Atkins, Chair of Ofsted and Royal Navy Audit Committee, Geoff Mulgan, Director of Young Foundation, Sir Steve Robson CB, former Second Permanent Ev 18 Secretary to HM Treasury and Matthew Taylor, Chief Executive, RSA Thursday 23 October 2008 Rt Hon David Blunkett MP, Rt Hon Kenneth Clarke MP, Rt Hon Peter Lilley Ev 37 MP and Rt Hon Nick Raynsford MP, former Ministers of the Crown Wednesday 26 November 2008 Ann Abraham, Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman, Steve Bundred, Chief Executive, Audit Commission and Tim Burr, Comptroller and Auditor Ev 55 General Tuesday 16 December 2008 Natalie Ceeney, Chief Executive, National Archives, Professor Christopher Hood, Oxford University, Professor Colin Talbot, Manchester University and Ev 69 Professor Tony Travers, London School of Economics and Political Science Thursday 15 January 2009 Sir Michael Bichard KCB, Director, Institute for Government, Lord Birt, former Ev 84 BBC Director-General and Lord Digby Jones, former Minister of State for Trade Thursday 26 February 2009 Rt Hon Liam Byrne MP, Minister for the Cabinet Office Ev 103 List of written evidence 1 Rt Hon Liam Byrne MP Ev 118 2 Audit Commission Ev 118 3 Dr Paul Benneworth Ev 123 4 Better Government Initiative Ev 127; Ev 142 5 Committee on Standards in Public Life Ev 143 6 Rt Hon Frank Dobson MP Ev 145 7 Hansard Society Ev 147 8 Professor Christopher Hood Ev 151 9 Institute for Government Ev 152 10 Intellect Ev 155 11 Local Government Association Ev 158 12 Sue Lownds Ev 162 13 Adam D G Macleod Ev 162 14 National Audit Office Ev 163 15 Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman Ev 216 16 Professional Contactors Group Ev 217 17 Prospect Ev 221 18 TaxPayers’ Alliance Ev 224 19 Peter Tomlinson Ev 249 Processed: 10-06-2009 21:19:52 Page Layout: COENEW [SO] PPSysB Job: 411706 Unit: PAG1 Public Administration Committee: Evidence Ev 1 Oral evidence Taken before the Public Administration Committee on Thursday 17 July 2008 Members present Dr Tony Wright, in the Chair Paul Flynn Julie Morgan David Heyes Mr Gordon Prentice Kelvin Hopkins Paul Rowen Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger Mr Charles Walker Witnesses: Sir John Bourn KCB, former Comptroller and Auditor General, Sir Richard Mottram GCB, former Permanent Secretary, and Ms Kate Jenkins, former senior civil servant, gave evidence. Q1 Chairman: Let me welcome our witnesses this Sir John Bourn: Well, the 20 years’ experience of morning. We are delighted to have you in front of us, being the Comptroller and Auditor General, when I Sir Richard Mottram, Sir John Bourn and Kate was an OYcer of the House of Commons, rather Jenkins. As you will know, the Committee has than a servant of the Executive, Chairman, and the launched a rather ambitious-sounding inquiry called 30 years’ experience as a civil servant “helping the “Good Government”. The point of this is to try and Minister to get through the week in politics”. What get behind some of the daily arguments to try and I tell in that article is the consolidation of the distil some of the underlying issues about what we do experience that I have had in 50 years of continuous well in British government, what we do not do well service and the consolidation of the reports that we and what we could do better, so we are asking a made and the improvements that we proposed whole raft of people, who have got experience of through the work of the Audit OYce. You quote, as V these matters from di erent perspectives, to come it were, the headline point that I make in the article and, as it were, distil their wisdom to us, and, I am and I also bring out that the Civil Service recognises afraid, all of you came into that category at once for this to a degree. If you look at Sir Peter Gershon’s obvious reasons. We have been reading what you work on gateway reviews and you look at Sir Gus have been saying and we want to draw from you in O’Donnell’s capability reviews, they are saying, in a terms of this inquiry, so could I thank you all very much for coming along. Because you are all now free sense and in perhaps more measured language, what people, and, Kate, you have been free for a long I am saying in that article you have just been good time, you do not have to speak in the way that you enough to quote. So Whitehall could move forward might have spoken when you came in front of us and you could get, as it were, a new view of what it when you were holding various oYces and you can takes to get to the top. Other things which I mention, now tell us the truth! Now, I do not know if you and perhaps I would just draw that out as you have would like us just to kick oV or do you want to say invited me, Chairman, to refer to my experience, first anything by way of preliminary. We shall just kick of all, I think there is too much change in oV. Now, you are all incriminated by texts that you government. The administrative machinery is in have produced, and I am going to use these to get us constant turmoil: new departments are created, old going. Now, Sir John, you, having run the National ones are dissolved, amalgamations take place. This Audit OYce for many, many years, therefore, have often confuses the people who work in them and looked at government closely over this period, since confuses the citizens who have to deal with them and you have left, you have been saying some pretty often does not seem very relevant to the projects and robust things about its infirmities. I quote back to programmes with which the administrative you this article from The Financial Times back in machinery is concerned. Regional structures, I May where you say, “My experience has taught me think, often add complexity rather than clarity and that fundamental improvements are urgently often constitute fifth wheels on the coach of systems needed’, and then you go on to say, ‘The whole of administration. Risks are very badly assessed and culture of the senior Civil Service needs to be managed. It is often said that civil servants are risk- changed. The top jobs should go to those who have successfully managed programmes and projects—in averse. They are risk-averse about risks within the health, social welfare and taxation, as well as bureaucracy, but they are risk-ignorant about the construction and defence. At the moment they are risks of the impact of their programmes on the given to those best at helping their ministers get citizens of this country where the most colossal risks through the political week. Changing this would are taken, absolutely walking oV the edge of a cliV, produce a new breed of civil servants, who would as we have seen, for example, in the scheme for the concentrate on securing successful public services. It Child Support Agency. We all agree, fathers should would alter ambition and behaviour right down the bear the responsibility for their children, but, before line”.