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CBS News

FACE THE NATION

Sunday, October 24, 2004

GUESTS: Senior Adviser, Bush-Cheney Campaign

JOE LOCKHART Senior Adviser, Kerry-Edwards Campaign

DOYLE McMANUS The Times

MODERATOR: - CBS News

This is a rush transcript provided for the information and convenience of the press. Accuracy is not guaranteed. In case of doubt, please check with

FACE THE NATION - CBS NEWS 202-457-4481

BURRELLE'S INFORMATION SERVICES / 202-419-1859 / 800-456-2877 Face the Nation (CBS News) - Sunday, October 24, 2004 2

BURRELLE'S INFORMATION SERVICES / (202)419-1859 / (800)456-2877 Face the Nation (CBS News) - Sunday, October 24, 2004 1 BOB SCHIEFFER, host:

Today on FACE THE NATION, nine days until the election and the race is still anybody's to win. With the candidates out campaigning for the undecided votes and that important bloc, women, the race remains virtually even. Will the huge numbers of new voters make the difference and how are the swing states leaning? We'll ask a top representative for each campaign. Liz Cheney, a senior adviser on the Bush team, and Joe Lockhart, who advises Senator Kerry.

Doyle McManus, of The , joins in the questioning.

Then we'll have a FACE THE NATION 50th anniversary Flashback about Pete Rose.

Finally, I'll have a thought on the Red Sox.

But first, the last days of the presidential campaign on FACE THE NATION.

Announcer: FACE THE NATION with CBS News chief Washington correspondent Bob Schieffer. And now from CBS News in Washington, Bob Schieffer.

SCHIEFFER: And good morning again. Both our guests are in the studio today. Liz Cheney, who is a working mom, a mother of four...

Ms. LIZ CHENEY (Bush-Cheney Senior Adviser): That's right.

SCHIEFFER: ...I believe, and a senior adviser on the Bush-Cheney campaign. She's also, of course, Vice President and Mrs. Cheney's daughter. Also, here is a working dad, Joe Lockhart, from the Kerry campaign. Joining in the questioning, another working dad or are you a working grandfather yet?

Mr. DOYLE McMANUS (Los Angeles Times): No. No, sir.

SCHIEFFER: Well, I'm a working grandfather here. Doyle McManus of the Los Angeles Times.

Let's begin with you, Ms. Cheney. And thank you very much for coming. And I want to start with this question. During the debate, when mentioned your sister by name after I asked him if he and President Bush believed that homosexuality was a choice--brought up your sister Mary's name. You're parents, to say the least, sort of went through the roof. A lot of other people took offense. But I can't find where anybody asked Mary Cheney what she thought about it. Was she offended?

Ms. CHENEY: She was, Bob. Thanks for having me first of all. I think we've all been pretty clear that we thought it was out of bounds. Mary was angry herself about it. And I think, you know, many people watching that night--if you look at the polls afterwards--thought it was out of bounds as well for a candidate to use a child of one of his opponents to score political points. Made folks wonder what kind of a person would do that. And I think it's become part of a pattern, unfortunately, where it looks like Senators Kerry and Edwards will say and do just about anything in these closing days of the campaign to get elected. We've seen it with--you know, the claim that if Senator Kerry were president, Christopher Reeve would walk again. We've seen it with the scare tactics on Social Security and the draft. It's really--it's unfortunate, but I think, unfortunately, it's part of a larger pattern we've seen.

BURRELLE'S INFORMATION SERVICES / (202)419-1859 / (800)456-2877 Face the Nation (CBS News) - Sunday, October 24, 2004 2

SCHIEFFER: May I just ask you, why was she offended? She is openly . To what did she take offense?

Ms. CHENEY: Well, the same thing that we all did, that it was really exploitative, that it was bringing her name into it to try to score some political points. And it's really unprecedented. I think it's, frankly, the first time that's ever happened.

SCHIEFFER: Mr. Lockhart, I must say that it did seem to put a rather harsh edge on what I thought was a fairly eloquent answer by Senator Kerry, his answer to the question. Why did he find it necessary to bring up her name and in retrospect, do you think it was a mistake?

Mr. JOE LOCKHART (Senior Adviser, Kerry-Edwards Campaign): Well, I don't think it was a mistake, and I think it's unfortunate, and we'll take the family at their word that they were offended by it. It's unfortunate. But what he was trying to do was make a broader point about tolerance. But the specific point, I think, was in praise of the parenting of Dick and , and that's where John Kerry is. I've talked to him about this. That's the point he was trying to make. It picked up on an exchange in the debate just two or three days earlier in , where said something very similar, and the vice president thanked him. Maybe it was the fact that wasn't there that it sort of got them...

SCHIEFFER: Well, does he feel badly about it?

Mr. LOCKHART: Well, I think if he says something that is meant as a compliment and two parents, whether they be the vice president or whether they be two parents who live in Peoria, Illinois, and they take it the wrong way, then, of course. It was not received as intended. I'll tell you what, though, I think is wrong. There was--one of your colleagues on the campaign told or that John Kerry had launched a vicious, personal attack. It wasn't. I mean--and that, to me, represents intolerance when people think that somehow, when you talk openly about these things, that it is something wrong and it's an attack. It was not an attack. And, again, if it was not received in the way it was intended, then that is unfortunate. But the broader point, I think, still exists, and the idea that both John Edwards and John Kerry think that they're good parents is the bottom line.

Ms. CHENEY: Can I just add one thing, though? I think the reason it was perceived as an attack was in part furthered by Mary Beth Cahill's comments, you know, calling Mary `fair game,' which doesn't fit into the whole notion...

Mr. LOCKHART: Well, that was...

Ms. CHENEY: ...that it was something meant kindly.

Mr. LOCKHART: Listen, a lot of things get twisted and taken out of context as time goes on. I watched that interview, and it--the interview was something along the line of, `You know, since Vice President Cheney first brought this to the public's attention in the first place, was it fair game to talk about it?' And her answer was `Yes.' I mean--so I don't think she's talking about, you know, it's--go back and look at the interview. That's what it says. And I think it says something about, you know, a campaign that generally doesn't want to focus on what's going on here domestically, what's going on in the world, that we constantly have these little things that get blown up and out of proportion and out of context, and the public is looking at it, saying, `You know what? I don't have a job. Why are they talking about this?'

BURRELLE'S INFORMATION SERVICES / (202)419-1859 / (800)456-2877 Face the Nation (CBS News) - Sunday, October 24, 2004 3

SCHIEFFER: Well, let's go to Doyle.

Mr. McMANUS: Ms. Cheney, let me go to a related issue, and it's one of the few issues on which your dad disagrees with President Bush. President Bush favors an amendment to the federal Constitution against same-sex marriage. Your father has said he thinks that the states ought to handle that matter. Oddly enough, Senator Kerry seems to agree with your father on that. What's your position?

Ms. CHENEY: Well, I think what my dad has said has been that, you know, he does believe it's a matter that should be left to the states. It's what the president has said, too. But you've got a situation now where you've got activist judges in several states who are taking that decision away from the people in those states and making it a situation where they're deciding from the bench rather than letting the people decide. I do agree with Joe in terms of the fact that people in this country are concerned about other issues. And we really are focused on the fact that, you know, people want to know who's going to keep them safe, who's going to keep this economy growing, looking at what this president's track record is and, frankly, looking at Senator Kerry's track record and comparing the two.

So, you know, I think we've said that we thought it was an inappropriate comment, an inappropriate remark, but, you know, at the end of the day, when people go into the ballot box, they're going to be voting based on this president's track record in keeping them safe and continuing to go grow this economy and continuing to create jobs.

Mr. McMANUS: But on the question of an amendment, do you agree with President Bush rather than your dad, or your...

Ms. CHENEY: I agree with my father.

SCHIEFFER: Let's talk about the campaign right now. I guess as close as it is, we're discovering through these polls that most of the undecided voters are women. Senator Kerry has obviously made a big play for them here in the closing days of the campaign. He campaigned this week with Christopher Reeve's widow, Dana, with Caroline Kennedy Schlossberg. Are women going to make a difference?

Mr. LOCKHART: Well, women make a difference in every race. I think about when you represent about 52 percent of the people who vote, they're an important bloc. I think we're doing quite well with women. There are some polls out there that signal some trouble. We don't believe that. We don't see that. I think there's a fundamental difference as we go into this last week you look at the campaign. The most vivid way you can decide what a campaign is about, that the campaign has control over, is the advertising. We have--we released yesterday two advertisements that are John Kerry talking to the camera in an optimistic way about what he wants to do in the future.

The Republicans and the president have introduced an ad that has a bunch of menacing wolves about--and with a very specific purpose, which is to scare the heck out of you. And they were very openly talking about how they did focus groups and they went to people and said, `What scares you more?' I have to imagine they had a tiger ad and a lion ad and maybe some snakes in the grass, and the wolves scared them the most. I think that says something about this president, that John Kerry's looking right into the camera and saying, `I'm optimistic.' The president's using animals, menacing animals, to say, `You ought to be

BURRELLE'S INFORMATION SERVICES / (202)419-1859 / (800)456-2877 Face the Nation (CBS News) - Sunday, October 24, 2004 4 scared.' There's a big difference. I think women in particular are going to react negatively to that.

Ms. CHENEY: Well, I obviously disagree. I think that Senator Kerry has a real problem with women. If you look at 2000, Al Gore beat George Bush in 2000 by 11 points among women. And we're seeing now among many polls that we are even, and even, in some cases in Colorado, for example, where Senator Kerry was yesterday were ahead among women. And I think this is because women understand this time around that national security is a critical issue. As I travel the country and talk to women, talk to mothers, in particular, they tell me they know George Bush will do whatever it takes to keep them safe. And they're frankly confused and concerned about where Senator Kerry is on this issue.

They also know that George Bush's tax cuts have left more money in their pocket. They know that President Bush's commitment to reforming our schools has made our schools better. So they see a track record on issues that matter to women as well as confidence that the proposals the president has laid out are 21st century proposals. You know, when you look at the next four years, whether it's reforming our health-care system to meet the needs of working families, whether it's continuing to improve our school system or whether it's continuing...

SCHIEFFER: Well...

Ms. CHENEY: ...to fight and win the war on terror...

SCHIEFFER: ...let me just pick up on one thing he said.

Mr. LOCKHART: Sure.

Ms. CHENEY: ...is George Bush.

SCHIEFFER: Is the Bush campaign trying to scare people?

Ms. CHENEY: Absolutely not. We are laying out what's true which is that this is a nation at war and we have a very important decision to make on November 2nd about how we wage that war. Senator Kerry has said on numerous occasions he's not even sure we're at war. He said he thinks it's a law enforcement and intelligence matter, and we think that's just wrong. We think there are scare tactics in this campaign, but frankly, it's when Senator Kerry, you know, says things that are fundamentally untrue about this president...

SCHIEFFER: Well...

Ms. CHENEY: ...and Social Security or this president in Iraq.

SCHIEFFER: ...speaking of scaring people and your guy trying to scare people...

Mr. LOCKHART: Well, I have to...

SCHIEFFER: ...into thinking there may be a draft.

Mr. LOCKHART: Well, listen, it's fundamentally untrue that John Kerry doesn't have a comprehensive view on fighting terror. John Kerry has been very clear that he will stop at nothing to capture and kill the terrorists...

BURRELLE'S INFORMATION SERVICES / (202)419-1859 / (800)456-2877 Face the Nation (CBS News) - Sunday, October 24, 2004 5

Ms. CHENEY: As long as the world agrees.

Mr. LOCKHART: ...and that--no, he hasn't said that. And you know what? The global test thing, you know, failed. The flip-flop thing failed. And now we're into just absolute visceral fear. And you know what? I think the public's going to reject that because they want to know what you're going to do in the future. They want to know that we can have a president that can defend this country and fight for the middle class. And this president has said, `I can only do one of those things. I'm just going to concentrate on defending the country. The middle class will just have to wait until we solve this problem.' That's not good enough.

Mr. McMANUS: I want to see if we can step back for a moment from these specific close-in tactical issues and ask a slightly broader question. Four years ago when President Bush ran against Vice President Gore, the outcome was 50/50. Now you can argue about one poll or another, but, boy, the country sure looks pretty close to 50/50 now. President Bush has had four years to make his case. Senator Kerry has had a full year to make his case. I want to start with you, Ms. Cheney. How come the electorate is still so close to 50/50?

Ms. CHENEY: You know, I think we're dealing with very, very important issues, and we're dealing with high-stakes issues. And, you know, there are issues of war and peace and issues of how are you going to have a job and how are you going to put food on the table and I think people feel very strongly about them. So I don't think it's a surprise that we are a nation divided, but I do think that it's important to remember that folks, as we get down to the final days here, are not just going to be listening to what the candidates are saying but they're looking very closely at the track record.

And although Senator Kerry has been out there talking tough on the war on terror and acting like he's a fiscal conservative, people are beginning to look at the record and say, `For 20 years, he's been on the wrong side of every national security issue facing this country. He's voted 98 times to raise taxes on American families, on seniors, on gasoline.' George Bush means what he says and says what he means. He came into office promising that he would do several things, including reform our school system, keep us safe as a nation, cut our taxes and he's done all that.

SCHIEFFER: Joe.

Mr. LOCKHART: Well, listen, I'm glad that we're finally at the track record. We are just looking at the wrong one. He promised to create jobs. We've lost 1.6 million--the first president since Herbert Hoover. He promised to get the health-care crisis under control. The biggest rise in the Medicare program's premium's; 56 percent rise in health-care costs. He promised to become energy independent. The price of a gallon--excuse me--of a barrel of oil hit $55 last week, about 70 percent higher than when he got into office. So their track record's important and we hope we can focus on this.

John Kerry's going to go into this last week talking about what he's going to do for the future, what he's going to do, and how optimistic he is about how this great country will deal with our challenges. The president will spend the last week trying to scare you, trying to say, `There are wolves out there. Only I have the secret formula to solve this.' It's just not going to work, and that's why if you look at the battleground states where this is going to get decided why we're running so strong in every single one of them.

BURRELLE'S INFORMATION SERVICES / (202)419-1859 / (800)456-2877 Face the Nation (CBS News) - Sunday, October 24, 2004 6 SCHIEFFER: Let me ask both of you this question. Do you think we're going to know at the end of the night who won this election, or do you think it's going to go into overtime?

Ms. CHENEY: We certainly hope that you will know. And we firmly believe that everybody who is eligible to vote ought to vote and their vote ought to be counted. We are really troubled, frankly, by what we're seeing, though, which seems to be an attempt by the Kerry and Edwards' folks to throw this nation into chaos on Election Day. And when you look at the brochures that they're handing out that instruct their operatives to claim that there's been voter fraud when there hasn't, when you look at what's happening on their behalf, in terms of registering, you know, people named Mickey Mouse and Mary Poppins, it's very, very troubling. And we think that it's wrong. So we think that this ought to be decided on an up or down vote. We're beginning to think that perhaps Senators Kerry and Edwards don't think they can prevail that way and so they're trying to throw us into chaos.

SCHIEFFER: Quickly, what do you think the battleground states are going to be?

Ms. CHENEY: I think that right now you're seeing that we are up in all of the battleground states that we won in 2000. And we are also up in a number of blue states. I think, obviously, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Florida will be important to watch.

SCHIEFFER: OK, Mr. Lockhart, quickly, do you think it'll be over Election Night?

Mr. LOCKHART: I think it will be over Election Night. It will be a pretty decisive victory for John Kerry. I think you'll see people moving this week. I think the Republicans, for as long as I've been in politics, have been committed to trying to keep the votes as low as they can. Democrats are about expanding the vote. The voters should...

SCHIEFFER: Quickly give me three battleground states.

Mr. LOCKHART: I think we're ahead in Ohio, we're ahead in Florida, and we're ahead in Pennsylvania. And that will be an electoral victory.

SCHIEFFER: OK. I got to end it there. Back in a minute.

(Announcements)

SCHIEFFER: We saved a little time here because I wanted to get some thoughts from Doyle McManus who knows about as much about this campaign as anybody I know. What did you make of this, Doyle?

Mr. McMANUS: Well, Bob, we didn't hear a lot new on the issues because the time for new stuff--talk on the issues in this campaign is over. This is about passion now. And that's why we saw so much passion there. I talked to a couple of pollsters this week who said that the level of this interest in the electorate, in this election, the level of passion already is higher than any in a generation. It may be higher since John F. Kennedy beat Richard Nixon in 1960.

SCHIEFFER: I've never seen anything quite like it. And if I look at these polls, it seems to me there's a slight trend toward George Bush but I'm not sure I believe these polls because I don't think we have an accurate gauge of what all these new voters who are signing up are going to do. These people all have cell phones. These people put their phones on--you know, put--

BURRELLE'S INFORMATION SERVICES / (202)419-1859 / (800)456-2877 Face the Nation (CBS News) - Sunday, October 24, 2004 7 they screen their calls. So I'm not sure these polls take into account what these younger people are going to do. What's your sense of that?

Mr. McMANUS: Well, the polls try to do but it's very hard to get a precise fix on it. The polls are pretty good at figuring out what attitudes are across the board but when they switch to what they call likely voters, and there they're trying to guess who's actually going to turn out, that's where these polls end up all over the map. And to me that is the game right now. It's turnout, turnout, turnout, and both parties have set up enormous machinery to try and do that. We're actually seeing a return of old-style politics that we haven't seen in a long time.

SCHIEFFER: When people sign up at the last minute to vote, last-minute voters, it's generally because they want to, quote, "throw the bums out." That's why they go to the polls. You very seldom see a last-minute voter sign up to vote because he says, `I just want to go and give the guy that's in there a vote of support.' Do you think we're seeing some of that now?

Mr. McMANUS: There is some of that. You know, one of the oldest rules in politics when an incumbent is running is that people who are undecided are people who aren't in love with the guy who's still in office. So if the undecided turnout, most of whom are probably going to go for Kerry--the big question is how many are going to turn out? How many are registered? How many of those registrations got challenged? Your question I thought was very good: Is this going to be decided on election night. I'm increasingly believing it won't be.

SCHIEFFER: That's what worries me. Frankly, I just hope that whoever wins wins decisively this time. I think it's going to be very difficult for the country if we go back to the Supreme Court once more. I think one of the reasons that the country is so divided right now is because it was finally decided in the Supreme Court. I just hope against hope that we don't wind up with one of these things that's a deadlock and nobody knows what's going to happen, but like you, I'm increasingly worried that something like that may happen.

What should we look for now between now and Election Day?

Mr. McMANUS: Well, we should look for what constituencies the candidates appeal to as they try and increase turnout. We should look for the Clinton factor. President Clinton is going to get back on the road. I think you're going see him in African-American churches. The African-American turnout is very important for Senator Kerry. And then finally, we're going to have to be watching all of those legal challenges, challenges to new registered voters, all of the stuff going on on the ground to get turnout up or keep it down.

SCHIEFFER: I thought it was interesting what Joe Lockhart was talking about, bringing all these animals out to campaign. I suppose Senator Kerry has conceded the duck vote to somebody else.

Mr. McMANUS: I was kind of wondering. They had him out goose-hunting. They might have wished he had gone out and bagged a wolf.

SCHIEFFER: OK. Thank you very much, Doyle.

Well, with the World Series on, we're going to take a look back today at 1985 and the strike that threatened Cincinnati Reds' All-Star Pete Rose's bid to break one of baseball's longest- standing records. That is this week's 50th anniversary FACE THE NATION Flashback.

BURRELLE'S INFORMATION SERVICES / (202)419-1859 / (800)456-2877 Face the Nation (CBS News) - Sunday, October 24, 2004 8 Mr. PETE ROSE: (From August 4, 1985) This is where I tell people about how my dad exposed me to sports.

SCHIEFFER: Pete Rose was trying to break the record for the most hits in a lifetime when he came on FACE THE NATION in 1985.

(Excerpt from FACE THE NATION, 1985)

LESLEY STAHL (CBS News): If there is a strike, you won't be able to break that record this year. Is this bothering you?

Mr. ROSE: I hope there isn't a strike. But if there is a strike, I hope it's the type of thing that makes baseball a better game because I worry about baseball. See, baseball's been very, very good to me for 23 years.

STAHL: Don't you want to break Ty Cobb's record? I thought you very much did want to.

Mr. ROSE: I will. I'm going to. It's just a matter of when, what year maybe, what date, off of what pitcher, what city. You know, I'm not really worried about that because I'm 25 hits away, and I think I'm going to do that. I don't know when. I think I'm going to do it in August, to be honest with you, because I think we're going to be playing baseball.

(End of excerpt)

SCHIEFFER: The strike lasted only two days, and in September Rose broke Cobb's record. But because he was later accused of gambling on baseball games, he was barred from baseball's Hall of Fame.

Another FACE THE NATION 50th anniversary Flashback.

I'll be back with a final word.

(Announcements)

SCHIEFFER: Finally today, do you know what no one talks about at World Series time? My baseball career, which is understandable, I suppose. The closest I came to being part of a long history of the game was when the nephew of the great Dizzy Dean hit me in the eye when he was a curveball ace of the SMU freshman team and I was a sore-armed catcher for the TCU club. That ended my hopeless quest to be a major-league ball player, but couldn't cool a love of the game that taught me more about life than any book I ever read.

But then these Red Sox showed up and made me wonder about one lesson the coaches always harped on: `Show up in a clean uniform and look sharp. It shows respect for the game, and besides, if you look like a ball player, the other team might think you're better than you really are.'

Tell that to this lovable group of Red Sox whack jobs with their mountain-man hair, white guys with corn rows and the mangiest collections of beards since the last parting of the Red Sea by Cecil B. DeMille. These guys wear the uniform like they're heading out to trick-or- treat. Are they trying to scare the other team?

BURRELLE'S INFORMATION SERVICES / (202)419-1859 / (800)456-2877 Face the Nation (CBS News) - Sunday, October 24, 2004 9 I keep thinking of the Red Sox, this wildly different group of individuals who've become a real team, when I look at our politicians who've been reduced to pablum-spouting look-alikes by media coaches, who've taught them to stay on message and at all costs avoid any spontaneity. I still like candidates who go to the barbershop, of course. It's good for the local economy. But wouldn't it be great if, just once in a while, candidates let it all hang out and had a little fun like the Red Sox do? It might be good politics; might even scare the other side. It's sure working for the Red Sox.

That's it for us. We'll see you next week, right here on FACE THE NATION.

BURRELLE'S INFORMATION SERVICES / (202)419-1859 / (800)456-2877