PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE NO. 4 - INDUSTRY Monday 1 March 2021 Examination of proposed expenditure for the portfolio areas WATER, PROPERTY AND HOUSING CORRECTED The Committee met at 9:30. MEMBERS The Hon. Mark Banasiak (Chair) The Hon. Lou Amato The Hon. Catherine Cusack The Hon. Sam Farraway Ms Cate Faehrmann Mr Justin Field The Hon. John Graham The Hon. Emma Hurst (Deputy Chair) The Hon. Tara Moriarty The Hon. Penny Sharpe Mr David Shoebridge The Hon. Mick Veitch PRESENT The Hon. Melinda Pavey, Minister for Water, Property and Housing CORRECTIONS TO TRANSCRIPT OF COMMITTEE PROCEEDINGS Corrections should be marked on a photocopy of the proof and forwarded to: Budget Estimates secretariat Room 812 Parliament House Macquarie Street SYDNEY NSW 2000 Monday, 1 March 2021 Legislative Council Page 1 The CHAIR: Welcome to the public inquiry for inquiry into budget estimates 2020-21 initial hearings. Before I commence I would like to acknowledge the Gadigal people, who are the traditional custodians of this land. I would also like to pay respect to the Elders past, present and emerging of the Eora Nation and extend that respect. I welcome Minister Pavey and accompanying officials to this hearing. Today the Committee will examine the proposed expenditure for the portfolios of Water, Property and Housing. Today's hearing is open to the public and is being broadcast live via the Parliament's website. In accordance with the broadcasting guidelines, while members of the media may film or record committee members and witnesses, people in the public gallery should not be the primary focus of any filming or photography. I would also remind media representatives that you must take responsibility for what you publish about the Committee's proceedings. The guidelines for the broadcast of proceedings are available from the secretariat. All witnesses in budget estimates have a right to procedural fairness according to the procedural fairness resolution adopted by the House in 2018. There may be some questions that a witness could only answer if they had more time or with certain documents to hand. In these circumstances, witnesses are advised that they can take a question on notice and provide an answer within 21 days. Minister Pavey, I remind you and the officers accompanying you that you are free to pass notes and refer directly to your advisers seated at the table behind you. Any messages from advisers or members' staff seated in the public gallery should be delivered through the committee secretariat. We expect that transcripts of this hearing will be available on the web from tomorrow morning. Finally, could everyone please turn their mobile phones to silent for the duration of the hearing? PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE NO. 4 – INDUSTRY CORRECTED Monday, 1 March 2021 Legislative Council Page 2 JIM BETTS, Secretary, Department of Planning, Industry and Environment, affirmed and examined JIM BENTLEY Deputy Secretary, Water, Department of Planning, Industry and Environment, sworn and examined MELANIE HAWYES, Deputy Secretary, Crown Lands, Department of Planning, Industry and Environment, affirmed and examined ANDREW GEORGE, Acting Chief Executive Officer, WaterNSW, affirmed and examined ROCH CHEROUX, Managing Director, Sydney Water, affirmed and examined DARREN CLEARY, Managing Director, Hunter Water, affirmed and examined GRANT BARNES, Chief Regulatory Officer, Natural Resources Access Regulator, affirmed and examined MICHAEL WRIGHT, Group Deputy Secretary, Housing and Property, Department of Planning, Industry and Environment, affirmed and examined AMANDA JONES, Chief Strategy Officer, Department of Planning, Industry and Environment—Water, affirmed and examined MICHAEL CASSEL, Chief Executive Officer, Land and Housing Corporation, Department of Planning, Industry and Environment, sworn and examined LEON WALKER, Deputy Secretary, Property & Development NSW, Department of Planning, Industry and Environment, affirmed and examined RICHARD BUSH, Crown Lands Commissioner, Department of Planning, Industry and Environment, sworn and examined ANISSA LEVY, Chief Executive Officer, Water Infrastructure NSW, Department of Planning, Industry and Environment, affirmed and examined The CHAIR: Given that there are no provisions for opening statements, we shall go straight to questions. The Hon. PENNY SHARPE: Good morning, Minister. There was an article in the paper yesterday regarding an incident with a ministerial driver. Were you that Minister that was involved in that incident? Mrs MELINDA PAVEY: That article referred to travel to Surry Hills. I have not been to Surry Hills in four months with my ministerial driver or relief driver. The Hon. PENNY SHARPE: So you are denying that that article is about you. Mrs MELINDA PAVEY: I have not travelled to Surry Hills and I have not been picked up or dropped off at Hosking Place, which is also referred to in the article. Last Tuesday I went home early and was having dinner where I stay in Sydney, so it was not referring to me from last Tuesday. The Hon. PENNY SHARPE: So it is not you. Mrs MELINDA PAVEY: Not that I can tell. The Hon. PENNY SHARPE: Thank you. Minister, your former media adviser is a man named David Eccleston—is that correct? Mrs MELINDA PAVEY: That is right. The Hon. PENNY SHARPE: Is Mr Eccleston currently doing any work for any of your agencies? Mrs MELINDA PAVEY: Mr Eccleston was a media adviser to me when I was roads Minister and he was very good at his job. I understand that agencies here have engaged and contracted his services. And I might point out that some of the very best people I have working in my agencies—even people behind me today—have been former advisers to people like Premier Morris Iemma. I think it is a difficult process when we try to make people inappropriate or try to suggest that they are not capable for a job because they have worked for one side of politics or another— The Hon. PENNY SHARPE: Minister, I simply asked you whether he was your— Mrs MELINDA PAVEY: I understand that— PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE NO. 4 – INDUSTRY CORRECTED Monday, 1 March 2021 Legislative Council Page 3 The Hon. PENNY SHARPE: —former media adviser. Mrs MELINDA PAVEY: I understand that. The Hon. PENNY SHARPE: I have other questions but, honestly, that is— Mrs MELINDA PAVEY: I understand that, but in terms of the— The Hon. PENNY SHARPE: You are trying to allege that I am trying to cast aspersions on him. I am not. I am simply asking you: Has he done any work for your agencies? Mrs MELINDA PAVEY: Yes, and I think he is doing some work at the moment in the Crown Lands space. So I might ask Melanie Hawyes if she has any information to add to that. The Hon. PENNY SHARPE: I am just interested in how many agencies of yours he has done work for. If you do not know, you can provide it on notice. Mrs MELINDA PAVEY: I will provide it on notice. The Hon. PENNY SHARPE: But he is currently doing work in Crown Lands—is that correct? Ms HAWYES: Not to my understanding at the present time but I will take that on notice. The Hon. PENNY SHARPE: Where is he working then? Mr BETTS: We will take that on notice. The Hon. PENNY SHARPE: Minister, have you directed your department to hire your former staffer as a consultant? Mrs MELINDA PAVEY: No. The Hon. PENNY SHARPE: At any time? Mrs MELINDA PAVEY: No. The Hon. PENNY SHARPE: What was the process to engage Mr Eccleston? Mrs MELINDA PAVEY: I will take that on notice. The Hon. PENNY SHARPE: For each agency, please. Mrs MELINDA PAVEY: I will take that on notice. The Hon. PENNY SHARPE: Can you also confirm whether Mr Eccleston was on a pre-qualification panel prior to any of his appointments? Mrs MELINDA PAVEY: I will take that on notice. The Hon. PENNY SHARPE: Can you also provide information to the Committee in relation to how much each of his contracts have been and over what period of time? Mrs MELINDA PAVEY: Certainly. The Hon. MICK VEITCH: Good morning, Minister. Mrs MELINDA PAVEY: Good morning, Mick. The Hon. MICK VEITCH: And to all your staff. Minister, in an article in the Weekend Australian on Saturday 6 February this year the Deputy Premier, John Barilaro, was quoted as saying that WaterNSW "can't cost a dam, a water project or manage our water supplies." Do you agree with his comments? Mrs MELINDA PAVEY: I believe that the Deputy Premier was referring to some of the challenges in relation to the costings for the dams that we are going through in terms of final business cases. We are challenged, as the Deputy Premier highlighted on Friday at budget estimates. We are looking at upwards of $500 million in biodiversity offset costs for the dam construction. Yes, it is a tough job building infrastructure but we will go through those processes. That is why— The Hon. MICK VEITCH: You are saying he is correct? Mrs MELINDA PAVEY: —we do have an oversight process now. We have started our own water infrastructure group with Department of Primary Industries—Water being led— PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE NO. 4 – INDUSTRY CORRECTED Monday, 1 March 2021 Legislative Council Page 4 The Hon. MICK VEITCH: You are saying he is correct, though? Is that what you are saying? Mrs MELINDA PAVEY: —by Anissa Levy. I am answering the question the way that I want to answer the question. The Hon. MICK VEITCH: That is okay. Is he correct? Mrs MELINDA PAVEY: I will continue to do that. We have Anissa Levy heading up our critical infrastructure water group. But it is important that we use all expertise—whether it is in the private sector, WaterNSW, or Department of Primary Industries—Water—to ensure that our final business case on Wyangala, due by end of year, and Dungowan Dam, by first quarter of next year, has the best possible information, contingencies and appropriate information.