Oral History Interview - In Memory of Talaat Harb Pacha Interviewer: Farida Ahmed El Deeb Interviewee: Mahmoud Nabil Ibrahim, the great-grandson of Talaat Harb Pacha

Farida Ahmed El Deeb 0:00 In memory of Talaat Harb Pacha, The founder of , air and many more Egyptian companies, Mahmoud Nabila Ibrahim, the great grandson of Talaat Harb talks to us about Talaat Harb's achievement, struggles and personal life on Monday, April 13 2020. Hello, Good afternoon. How are you?

Mahmound Nabil Ibrahim 0:20 I'm fine. Thank you very much. Thank you for inviting me to your audio interview.

Farida Ahmed El Deeb 0:25 Thank you so much. Okay. I will start this interview by asking you some questions about your education and well-being. How has your education revealed what makes life worth living for you?

Mahmoud Nabil Ibrahim 0:35 Well, first of all, I got my school education at a Jesuit school then this gave me a very interesting perspective into the French culture and it's very deep. So I was lucky enough to have excellent professors and so I was introduced to Didereto, Rousseau, Voltaire and all the major French intellectuals and philosophers. So it really helped me shape my life and gave me a kind of appreciation for every moment we are living on planet Earth. And then I went to The American University in , which gave me another perspective, which is really epitomized in the American dream and the American way of life. So it was about creativity, entrepreneurship, freedom, ethics and values and corporate governance. So, this gave me a real edge in terms of my professional career, which was thereafter in banking, in international banking.

Mahmoud 1:59 I used to work for major American institutions like Citibank, Merrill Lynch, and I followed the path of my great grandfather Talaat Harb Pacha.And my father later on became the chairman of Banque Misr as well. So what we know is, a banker, female, international female period and now I'm a board member of company, [that] doesn't [do] banking company here in Egypt.

Farida Ahmed El Deeb 2:31 Okay, well, would you say that your education equiped you with the tools you needed to help you navigate through the life's challenges?

Mahmoud Nabil Ibrahim 2:39 Well, I never take no for an answer. I mean, I don't go the extra mile, I go over the extra mile with the gas. And you'll be surprised if I tell you that I do not think out of the box. Because simply I burned my box and I did enjoy watching the fires. So for me, everything is possible and I'm very curious about acquiring new knowledge and applying it to a constant 24/7 working progress. I don't believe in moles and [be] another banker person. Just keep the drive and traction on like my great grandfather, it's in my genes.

Farida Ahmed El Deeb 3:25 Yes. Okay, moving on to your great grandfather. What is Talaat Harb Pacha's full name?

Mahmoud Nabil Ibrahim 3:33 His full name is Muhammad Talaat Hassan Harb Pacha.

Farida Ahmed El Deeb 3:39 Perfect. And just to make this sure, he is your great grandfather, right?

Mahmoud Nabil Ibrahim 3:45 Yes, [he] Is my mother's grandfather from my mother's side. Absolutely.

Farida Ahmed El Deeb 3:50 And did you ever meet him?

Mahmoud Nabil Ibrahim 3:52 No. Fortunately, I didn't meet him because he passed away on August 13, 1940. You won. And I was born in 1959. So

Farida Ahmed El Deeb 4:03 Oh,

Mahmoud Nabil Ibrahim 4:04 It was impossible to reach him, unfortunately.

Farida Ahmed El Deeb 4:07 Oh, well, what were the stories that you heard of him like? What was his personal life like?

Mahmoud Nabil Ibrahim 4:13 Well his personal life was very ... it was very diffucult. And so he used to wake up at five in the morning around five, pray his fajr and read the Quran. And he would read all the newspapers and have his breakfast and he was to be in his office sharply at 8:45 on a daily basis. And so it was a very kind of disciplined lifestyle.That's all I could say.

Farida Ahmed El Deeb 4:55 Okay, well, did you see any pictures of him?

Mahmoud Nabil Ibrahim 4:59 Well, I got plenty of pictures and I urge you to go to Banque Misr head office which is in Mohamed Farid Street. The building in itself is a rare gem, though the bank was established in 1920. And today it is a tea is the centennial of the bank because today is April 13 as well. So, it's it's a real gem. It's a piece of art and it was inaugurated seven years later, in 1927. The architect behind this masterpiece was the Italian architect, Antonio Lashat. And it's a beautiful planned for Mamluk style ala style decor.

Mahmoud Nabil Ibrahim 5:53 And inside the bank, the head office is the Talaat Harb Pacha museum, which is unique. It's full of pictures documentary, some of his belongings, the highest mileage distinction that Sadat gave him Qaladet El Nile (The Necklace of the Nile) is there. And case with a camera which came the Abdelaziz to use all the services here and to the Kingdom of . Mid finance the road between Jeddah and Mecca and metric transportation which is maritime transportation. Which is one of the banks companies secure the link between Egypt and Saudi Arabia for the pilgrims.

Farida Ahmed El Deeb 6:47 Okay, perfect. Now, digging more deeply into his personal life. Can you tell us more like how did he dress?

Mahmoud Nabil Ibrahim 6:55 He was ... he dressed in a European. And he dressed in a very, he was very smart and in the way he dressed, normally three-piece suits and he used to have like a pearl pin in his tie. He always as a simple love. It was very fashionable at the time he had his own cane and he has his own Manasha as well to carry them both a lot. And of course, we cannot forget the traditional tarboush.

Farida Ahmed El Deeb 7:41 Yes!

Mahmoud Nabil Ibrahim 7:41 This was his personality mixing, blending the Orient with the occident.

Farida Ahmed El Deeb 7:51 Okay, perfect. And now, linking Talaat Harb Pacha with you. How did he affect your life directly, and indirectly?

Mahmoud Nabil Ibrahim 8:02 Well, he, I mean definitely had tremendous effect because he, o ne of his quotes is "Man Hassaba Kasba". So, which means that the quintessential quality of winners is planning. So, I always, and this is what he did, whatever I undertake, I always study inside out very parallel. And once I decide to go ahead I go full blast and Hell or High waters, I have to achieve the objective. I said to myself and I was put in higher and higher standards. So that's one of the main traits and I got from him.

Farida Ahmed El Deeb 9:02 That's really nice. Well, what challenges or problems do you think Talaat Harb Pacha faced?

Mahmoud Nabil Ibrahim 9:11 Well he... the major, I mean, I would recall initially if you studied the 100 year history of Banque Misr. Definitely, Annus horribilis would be 1939. Because first of all, Talat Pasha established Banque Misr in 1926. And unfortunately the bank has to close its doors in 1939 with the eruption of World War Two. So Banque Misr Paris closed in 1939. And Second thing, which was even more critical, there were lots of jealousy and animosity within the Egyptian establishment, especially from part of the British. Because most, a lot of the companies established and mainly made for cotton was competing with the company, the British companies in Manchester, the cotton companies. And so they did not like that very much and was representing the nationalistic view for the freedom of the Egyptian economy.

Mahmoud Nabil Ibrahim 10:45 And this you can read it, There's an American scholar by the name of Eric Davis, who wrote the book on him called 'Challenging colonialism'. So it although challenging colonialism to give Egypt its economic independence, And this, the British didn't like much. So what happened in 1939 when Rommel arrived to Alamein? The British got scared and some people say they started burning the documents at the British Embassy in Cairo. And were also scared as because of the German incursion into Egypt and they went on taking all the money from the banks withdrawing the money. So it was a big problem for all the banking sector and normally in such conditions, the central banks would support the banking system because it's something extraordinary.

Mahmoud Nabil Ibrahim 11:50 And the central bank at the time was called the National Bank of Egypt, and the governor was British. So not only did the British support other banks, they refused to help Banque Misr. And not only that they made the government, which was undervalued at the time, withdraw from the bank the main deposits, which was the post authority deposits. And which was huge at the time, I don't recall the figure. So instead of helping the bank, they made sure that the government would and even the palace withdraw the deposits from the bank to make the bank really face a terrible liquidity problem. So when Talat Harb went to meet them to ask for a credit facility to help the bank overcome this upheaval, they were reluctant.

Mahmoud Nabil Ibrahim 12:58 And even he proposed in the secure, giving him a secured loan against all the assets of Banque Misr companies, ie the plains of Egypt, the land and buildings of Misr for cotton and among other fixed assets, they refused. They told him the only condition for us to save the bank is to leave. So he resigned and he said his famous quote, "I leave the bank, but the bank stays." And he left the bank in 1939 and the bank still remains till today. And it was honestly ... it was very tough on him. So he passed away a few years, just three years later, in 1941. And he was 74 at the time,August 13, 1941.

Farida Ahmed El Deeb 14:02 Okay, well that was his challenges slash problems and his career life. Do you know any problems he faced in his personal life?

Mahmoud Nabil Ibrahim 14:11 Well in his personal life, he faced some losses. His wife passed away at a relatively young age, before the establishment of the bank before 1920. And he has to he had to. And also his son, who was called Hassan like his father passed away before he reached 20. And he had to take care of the education of his four daughters. One of them is my grandmother, actually.

Farida Ahmed El Deeb 14:52 Well, I've heard that Talaat Harb Pacha has published work such as 'Raising Women in the veil' and 'The last word on the woman and the veil,' which was opposing to the ideas of Qassem Amin, do you have anything to say about that?

Mahmoud Nabil Ibrahim 15:11 Oh, I have many things to think about it because unfortunately most of the people and scholars interpret in the wrong way. The reason he countered the ideas of Qassem Amin and that was long before the establishment of Banque Misr, because Talaat Pacha wanted a symbol to say we are Egyptian, a nationalistic symbol. And when Qassem Amin just you know, said "we have to follow the European example so as women are concerned." he was very keen on fighting that not because of women wearing veil or not wearing veil but because he needed a symbol to hang on to to preserve the Egyptian identity at the time. And obviously, when he established the bank, the bank was the symbol or was the answer to preserve the Egyptian identity.

Mahmoud Nabil Ibrahim 16:12 So, so this idea, that's why he only counter attacked the ideas of Qasim. I mean, but in his life when you read about his life, he was definitely very, he believed in gender equality and was definitely very much to help them, support women. And I'll give you few examples. First of all, he opened the door for women to work in his bank and factories and they were unveiled. His four daughters and at the time, you know, daughters would listen to their father they could not say no, he's four daughters were not veiled at all. And he supported Um Kulthum. He was the main supporter and sponsor of Un Kulthum and he is the one who produced her first movie with that. Also, he was very close to Hoda Shaarawy.

Mahmoud Nabil Ibrahim 17:10 He resoluted when she went to him and her magazine was broke, he saved her from bankruptcy. So and he celebrated the first Egyptian woman pilot. So when you go through his history, he was always supportive of the role women played in the Egyptian society. So that's my answer to this one.

Farida Ahmed El Deeb 17:36 Okay. In your own opinion, what or which achievement of Talaat Harb Pacha do you think has impacted the economy the most?

Mahmoud Nabil Ibrahim 17:46 The nucleus of all this Egyptian nationalistic creation the the nucleus of it the essence of it is definitely the bank Banque Misr. And Banque Misr now under its very sharp leadership, Mr. Muhammad Eletreby, the chairman and his Vice Chairman, Mr. Akef ElMaghraby is one of the top banks, if not the top bank in the country. And I would say not only in Egypt, but in the entire Middle East. So definitely Banque Misr is the major is the nucleus and the base for all the other achievements so Banque Misr, that's one.

Mahmoud Nabil Ibrahim 18:35 And number two, Egypt air. We all fly Egypt air and this is his creation. It's the Egyptian national airlines. So that's, Egypt could not have lived without its own airline. So he's the one who created this. And also, I would say on the culture standpoint, unfortunately now it's not existant, but Misr Studio all the beautiful black and white movies at the time it was produced by Misr Studio. Then you have Misr Insurance which of course one of the major insurance companies in the country. Misr for Cotton which is old, which was the base of the production for all the cotton industry, which is also struggling unfortunately. So, I mean, that's a few I can recall for now that has and still have 100 years from the day of Banque Misr has a major impact on the Egyptian not only to Egyptian but the Middle Eastern economy as well.

Farida Ahmed El Deeb 19:48 Okay, to conclude this interview, can you please tell us your full name?

Mahmoud Nabil Ibrahim 19:54 My name is Mahmoud Nabil Ibrahim.

Farida Ahmed El Deeb 19:58 Perfect, thank you so much for your time!

Mahmoud Nabil Ibrahim 20:01 You're most welcome Farida! And thank you very much for this interview which is coincidentally happened on April 30 2020 and 100 years from the establishment of Banque Misr.