Page 1 1 MULTNOMAH COUNTY GRAND JURY 2 DEATH INVESTIGATION 3 4 Deceased: ) MICHAEL GREGORY JOHNSON ) DA No. 2331064-1, 2 5 Date of Incident: ) November 6, 2015 ) PPB No. 15-385104 6 Location: NW 22nd Ave. ) Between NW Kearney and NW ) 7 Lovejoy Streets, ) Portland, Oregon ) 8 ) 9 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS 10 11 BE IT REMEMBERED that the above-entitled 12 transcript of GRAND JURY proceedings was heard, 13 commencing at the hour of 8:30 a.m., on Thursday, 14 December 3rd, 2015, and Friday, December 4th, 2015, at 15 the Multnomah County Courthouse, Portland, Oregon. 16 17 APPEARANCES 18 Mr. Donald Rees Deputy District Attorney 19 On Behalf of the State of Oregon 20 21 22 DEBORAH L. COOK, RPR, CSR Certified Shorthand Reporter 23 Portland, Oregon 24 * * * 25
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 2 1 PROCEEDINGS 2 Thursday, December 3, 2015, at 8:52 a.m. 3 ERIC KAMMERER, 4 produced as a witness, having been first duly sworn, 5 was examined and testified as follows: 6 7 DIRECT EXAMINATION 8 BY MR. REES: 9 Q Now that we're really ready to begin, why 10 don't you begin with your educational background. 11 A I have been a police officer for 21 years, 12 all of it with Portland. When I was hired, back in 13 1994, I attended the basic academy, which at that time 14 was in Monmouth, Oregon, and became certified as a 15 police officer. 16 And then once I was done with that, I 17 attended an Advanced Academy, here in the city of 18 Portland, that was put on by the Portland Police. And 19 then in 2003, I was promoted to detective. And at that 20 time I attended a two-week detective's academy that is 21 put on by the Portland Police. And I have been assigned 22 to homicide detail since 2007. 23 Q During -- or since that time, do you know 24 how many homicide cases you have worked on? 25 A At last count I have been the primary
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 3 1 investigator, or assisted with investigating slightly 2 over 200 homicide cases. 3 Q And were you assigned lead detective 4 investigating the circumstances around the shooting 5 death of Michael Gregory Johnson on Friday, November 6, 6 2015? 7 A Yes. I am the primary investigator for 8 that case. 9 Q Where did that shooting take place? 10 A Right at -- on 22nd Avenue, between Kearney 11 and Lovejoy, right next to Good Samaritan Hospital. 12 There's a parking structure on the west side of 13 Kearney -- or west side of 22nd with office buildings 14 above, and then an open lot on the east side. And it's 15 across that street is where the shooting took place. 16 Q This is in Northwest Portland? 17 A Correct. 18 Q And for those who aren't familiar with that 19 neighborhood, how would you describe it in terms of 20 being residential, or commercial, or densely populated, 21 sparsely populated? 22 A It's a mixture of both residential and 23 commercial, and it is very densely populated, especially 24 this area of Northwest Portland. You have a lot of 25 people living in a pretty small area. You have got a
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 4 1 lot of residential apartments, houses, and then you do 2 have some businesses, too. There's the hospital and all 3 the support buildings right around there. 4 Q And you mentioned Good Sam Hospital. 5 During the investigation was there any indication that 6 Mr. Johnson was a patient at the hospital, or had tried 7 to check himself into the hospital? 8 A No. And when this incident was unfolding, 9 they actually had police officers go to the hospital and 10 try to determine if he was a patient there, or if he had 11 a loved one there, or something, something that would 12 link him to that area. And they were not able to locate 13 any kind of records regarding that. He was not a 14 patient there, nor did he have a loved one there. 15 Q And in terms of where Mr. Johnson lived, 16 did he have any connection to Portland? 17 A He really didn't have any connection to 18 Portland, especially the Northwest Portland area. He 19 was living out in Forest Grove -- he was actually living 20 out at the beach, but in the Tillamook area. His wife 21 was living in Forest Grove. He would kind of go back 22 and forth between there. 23 He had family members down in Lake Oswego, 24 and then he was a handyman, so he did some handyman work 25 out in Southeast Portland. But he didn't have any
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 5 1 connection, that we could find, especially that area 2 next to the hospital. 3 Q What time did the Portland Police first 4 become aware of the situation involving Mr. Johnson on 5 that day? 6 A 911 call was placed at 5:38 a.m. 7 Q And what was the nature of that call? 8 A What had happened, a person named Raquel 9 Miller -- she's the lead security officer for Good 10 Samaritan Hospital. A person came in, said there's a 11 man with a gun in the parking lot outside. You need to 12 call the police. 13 There's another security officer there at 14 the front desk named Chelsea Catchpole, and she went 15 outside -- after this man came in, there's a person 16 outside with a gun, you need to call the police, he 17 left. He went back outside. 18 She went outside to see who this person 19 was, and she saw the same person that she had seen come 20 in and say, there's a man outside with the gun, standing 21 outside in the parking lot with a gun in his hand. She 22 notified her supervisor, Raquel Miller, and then the 911 23 call was placed. 24 Q The call was made at 5:38 a.m.? 25 A That is correct.
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 6 1 Q What time did the first police officers 2 arrive in that area of Northwest Portland? 3 A The first officers arrived on scene at 4 5:44 a.m. 5 Q When the officers first arrived at the 6 scene, what were the first steps that they took, given 7 the particular situation that presented itself? 8 A Given the fact that this is a call of a man 9 armed with a gun, they are not just going to walk up to 10 him and say, what's going on. So they formed a team, 11 and then they moved up using a vehicle, and eventually a 12 shield as cover, so they could get close enough to 13 safely talk to this person without placing anybody in 14 grave danger. 15 So they moved up. They tried to establish 16 some contact with this person, who was not engaging the 17 officers really at all. He did make statements 18 eventually that his name was Mike Johnson, and that 19 today was going to be a black day, and that he was armed 20 with -- there's some discussion about whether or not the 21 gun is real on his end. He's like, if you don't believe 22 me, this is a real gun, it's a Rossi .38-caliber 23 revolver. 24 That was the only real engagement he made 25 with the officers. The attempts were made, what can we
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 7 1 do to help you? How can we help you? Can we get you 2 some help? We're right by a hospital. And he didn't 3 respond to any of that. 4 Eventually, the sergeant on scene, 5 Acting-Sergeant Dunbar made some consultation phone 6 calls with our Crisis Negotiation Team, and they were 7 activated. Their job is to come out, and they are 8 highly trained in dealing with people in mental 9 distress. They have special training on how to talk to 10 people. They have all gone to the FBI negotiation 11 school, so they are well equipped to deal with 12 situations like this. 13 So they responded, and a short time later 14 the Portland Police Bureau Special Emergency Reaction 15 Team, which is our SWAT team, was activated as well in 16 order to provide security, basically, for the Crisis 17 Negotiation Team. So that they were able to effectively 18 get close enough to try and establish some kind of 19 dialogue with this person. 20 And the SERT Team also brings a lot of 21 other tools that can be used to safely approach this 22 guy, get close enough, effectively communicate with him. 23 And then, if need be, work towards getting the gun put 24 down and getting him safely to where he needs to be. 25 So all of that was Enacted by about 6:30.
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 8 1 And I am also a member of the SERT Team, in an intel 2 position. So I stay in the rear and coordinate 3 resources and information that gets passed along to the 4 actual members of the SERT Team and the critical 5 incident commander who runs the operation whenever these 6 kinds of things are activated. 7 Q While all of these things were taking 8 place, as you described, were members of the police 9 bureau also taking steps to close the area to 10 pedestrians and nurses and patients and doctors, and 11 other people to try to keep those people safe? 12 A Yes. One of the security officers for Good 13 Samaritan Hospital actually positioned his vehicle in 14 the driveway to the parking lot so that nobody could 15 pull in. And then officers began shutting down the 16 area, restricting pedestrian access. 17 What we didn't want to have happen is you 18 have got a man with a gun out there holding himself 19 hostage right now. What we don't want is somebody 20 walking by, and have their life in danger, and possibly 21 be taken hostage, as well. 22 And as far as the hospital, we're not going 23 to evacuate the hospital. This is a major hospital, if 24 you've ever seen it from the freeway. So the hospital 25 gets locked down, and you just prohibit access, people
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 9 1 from going in. It's called sheltering in place. Those 2 were all steps that were taken as this event is 3 unfolding. 4 Q And were you aware that hospital security 5 declared what they call Code Silver to lock down the 6 facility? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And at some point that morning, did you 9 become aware that Michael Gregory Johnson had actually 10 fired this weapon? 11 A Yes. When we were out there initially, 12 when I responded as a member of SERT, I was -- I 13 heard -- I was listening to the radio, so I heard on the 14 radio that he had just fired one round at the ground. 15 He hadn't pointed his gun at anybody. The officers out 16 there made it clear he was the one who fired, none of 17 them had fired, and nobody -- he wasn't shooting at 18 anybody. He was shooting at the ground. 19 Q And then what did you learn after that in 20 terms of what was happening with Mr. Johnson? 21 A While all of this is going on, Sergeant 22 Burley, who is a member of the Crisis Negotiation 23 Team -- he's also the supervisor for our Behavioral 24 Health Unit -- was out there at the scene. 25 And they had relocated from where they had
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 10 1 been up by this car, the shield, into a parking 2 structure that you approach from the west side on 3 Kearney. It's ground level, so you walk right in. But 4 as it gets to 22nd Avenue, because the street slopes and 5 the building is straight, it drops down slightly, so you 6 are overlooking the street now. 7 The location they were at, they were about 8 seven feet above the street, looking down. And that's 9 where Sergeant Burley had established the negotiation 10 position, if you will. And it was at that location, he 11 was attempting to communicate with Mr. Johnson. 12 And again, Sergeant Burley was not having a 13 lot of luck in communicating with Mr. Johnson. He 14 didn't seem to want to engage with the officers. He 15 spent the bulk of his time, as described, with his 16 fingers up by his ears, and the gun up by the side of 17 his head, as he's blocking out external noise and 18 focusing on whatever is going on inside of his head at 19 the time. 20 Q What information did you receive following 21 that? 22 A So a short time after that first round of 23 fire, I want to say somewhere within ten minutes, he 24 fires his second round. Again, into the ground. This 25 is put out over the radio. He fired a second round at
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 11 1 the ground, and they made sure it was him and not the 2 police. And the police didn't take any action with him 3 shooting at the ground. 4 And within a relatively short time frame, 5 within four or five minutes, I could hear multiple 6 gunshots. And this was at 7:15 a.m. And then it was 7 put out over the air that members of SERT had shot at 8 Mr. Johnson. He was struck, and then they quickly 9 formed a plan to get medical services up to Mr. Johnson. 10 One of the components that SERT brings out 11 with them are two highly trained paramedics with the 12 Portland Fire Bureau. They are really well trained in 13 emergency trauma intervention. And so they were quickly 14 brought up -- they were on scene, they were quickly 15 brought up to attempt life saving measures for 16 Mr. Johnson, but unfortunately, his wounds were fatal 17 and he was not able to be saved. 18 Q And at that point a full homicide 19 investigation, or an investigation into the use of 20 deadly force by these officers was initiated by the 21 police bureau? 22 A Yes, that is correct. 23 Q I am sorry. How is it that your role then 24 transformed to that of homicide detective? 25 A As a member of the Homicide Detail, and I
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 12 1 was currently on-call for the next homicide, so I knew 2 this was going to be mine, I went to the critical 3 incident commander and I told him, I am now taking this 4 over. This is my scene now. I coordinated with acting 5 Sergeant Dunbar for establishing scene security, 6 establishing a crime scene, locking the scene down, 7 locking evidence. 8 I notified my supervisor of what had 9 occurred, and when we have an officer-involved shooting, 10 any kind of homicide investigation, it's not a one-man 11 show. I am the lead investigator, but I have a lot of 12 good people helping me out. 13 My partner, Detective Sponhauer, responded. 14 We have two criminal -- two detectives that are assigned 15 just for crime scene management. They responded. We 16 have two more detectives that are dedicated to support 17 roles. They responded. We also had two detectives from 18 the East County Major Crimes Team respond to the scene. 19 Several members of the -- they are criminalists from our 20 Forensic Evidence Division came out to document the 21 scene, do photographs, video. And in this case, used 22 what is known as a LEICA scanner to document the scene. 23 We had multiple detectives from other 24 details, including the robbery detail and assault detail 25 come out, dedicated just to do interviews of witness
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 13 1 officers, and witnesses we can locate at the scene. 2 Q Just to step back for a moment, in terms of 3 the time frame for these events, you testified that the 4 call to 911 was made from the hospital to the police 5 bureau at 5:38 in the morning. What time did the fatal 6 shooting take place? 7 A At 7:15 a.m. 8 Q 7:15? 9 A Yes. 10 Q You also mentioned in terms of the 11 response, two members of the East County Major Crimes 12 Team, so these are detectives from outside police 13 agencies? 14 A Yeah. It's comprised of -- the East County 15 Major Crimes Team is comprised of detectives from 16 Gresham Police, Multnomah County Sheriff's Office, 17 Oregon State Police, Fairview Police. Used to be 18 Troutdale, I think they are now Multnomah County again. 19 So all the East Precinct county agencies, 20 as well as the Oregon State Police, and they have a pool 21 of detectives. And of that pool, two were sent out to 22 assist with this investigation. 23 Q And in this case, one was from the 24 Multnomah County Sheriff's Office, and one from the 25 Gresham Police Department?
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 14 1 A That is correct. Yes. 2 Q And then in addition to all of those 3 investigators, a number of people from your command 4 staff responded to the scene, I believe? 5 A Oh, yeah, my lieutenant was there. 6 Actually, my lieutenant was at work. He stayed behind 7 at the Detective Division to coordinate interviews, but 8 the commander came out. Assistant Chief Day had already 9 been out there, so several members of the command staff 10 were out there as well. 11 Q And as well as other individuals, myself, 12 from the District Attorney's office, someone from 13 Independent Police Review, City Attorney's office -- 14 A Yes. 15 Q And in sum, the response to a shooting like 16 this, actually exceeds what you have on a typical 17 homicide investigation? 18 A Absolutely, yeah. On a normal homicide 19 investigation, we will get our six detectives, and then 20 the criminalists from the Forensic Evidence Division. 21 In this case, we get a lot more personnel. 22 Q What do you do with all of those witnesses 23 in a situation like this? 24 A All the witnesses -- all the officer 25 witnesses are separated, and monitored. They are told
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 15 1 not to discuss the incident. The civilian witnesses are 2 located, and then all witnesses, civilian witnesses and 3 officer witnesses are interviewed, and those interviews 4 are recorded. 5 Q And who were the two officers involved in 6 the fatal shooting? 7 A Officer Chad Daul and Officer Russ Corno. 8 Q Did both of those officers agree to a 9 voluntary police interview? 10 A Yes, they did. 11 Q Were those interviews recorded? 12 A Yes, they were. 13 Q And when did that take place, and where? 14 A Those were both at the Detective Division 15 on November 10th. 16 Q Were the statements from those two officers 17 consistent with the physical evidence found at the 18 scene, and other information that was obtained by 19 investigators in this case? 20 A Yes. They were consistent with the 21 evidence at the scene, as well as all of the witness -- 22 officer witness and civilian witness interviews that we 23 did. 24 Q You mentioned as part of the investigation, 25 the scene was documented with a device called a LEICA
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 16 1 3-D Digital Imaging Scanner? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Did you bring some of the images that were 4 created as part of the investigation to the Grand Jury? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Why don't we take a look at those now, and 7 if you would, please give us an overview of the scene, 8 visually. 9 A So this is 22nd Avenue here. This is that 10 parking structure I talked about over looking 22nd 11 Avenue, and I will slowly pan over here. 12 So you can see behind here is a parking 13 garage. Up above, these are medical offices. So this 14 parking here, and there's actually one level underneath 15 this that you can't see, is parking for those medical 16 offices. Here is Kearney Street here. 17 So when I talked about entering on the 18 ground level, they were walking in here from the west at 19 ground level, and then by the time they got here, they 20 are now over looking the street. 21 Q So Kearney to the west, which would be 22 towards downtown Portland, and then the street we're 23 looking at here is 22nd? 24 A Yeah. So Kearney is to the south. Lovejoy 25 is to the north. You are looking at 22nd right now, and
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 17 1 you are facing East Precinct. And then just for 2 reference, this is Good Samaritan Hospital back over 3 here, across Lovejoy. And then these are more medical 4 offices here. 5 MR. REES: So for members of the Grand 6 Jury, is everyone clear, generally, what we're looking 7 at here? 8 A And if you have any questions, please feel 9 free. And then these are residences down here, as well 10 as residential down here, so these brick pillars here, 11 parking spots, and then this is like a little three-foot 12 high concrete wall. 13 And Officer Corno was somewhere in here, 14 and then there's three shell casings over here 15 associated with the firing of his weapon. And then 16 Officer Daul was down in here, kneeling down, and he was 17 looking through this opening in the concrete wall. And 18 these are just spaced openings. There's another one 19 right there in the concrete wall. It's just part of the 20 design. This is a -- right here was a bullet fragment 21 that we located, just a very tiny piece of a bullet. 22 Q And can we see that photo of the spent 23 bullet? 24 A I think so. (Complies.) So right there. 25 It almost looks like a crumpled up gum wrapper, but it's
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 18 1 hard metal. 2 Q Was it your belief that that misshapen 3 bullet was the bullet fired by Michael Johnson, the 4 third time he fired the gun? 5 A Yeah. It was our thought that this is a 6 piece of that bullet. And then further back in the 7 parking structure here, we located another -- a much 8 larger flattened bullet that was collected, as well. 9 Q And were both of those items, placard 17 10 and placard 18, delivered to the Oregon State Police 11 crime lab so they could take a look at that? 12 A They were, yes. And then in conducting 13 interviews with witnesses, this is the location where 14 Mr. Johnson had been standing. Just prior to Officers 15 Corno and Daul shooting, he had been there, and he had 16 raised the gun in his right hand and pointed it directly 17 at this area right here, basically, where the 18 negotiators were, where Officer Daul was, and fired one 19 round. And it was after that round that was fired that 20 Officers Corno and Daul returned fire. 21 Q When you say Mr. Johnson was standing 22 there, you are indicating or referring to the two trees? 23 A There's a tree here, and this is actually a 24 telephone pole here. 25 Q Okay. That are directly across the street
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 19 1 from the parking structure? 2 A Yeah. We can zoom in on this area here a 3 little bit. So this area here, there's an impact mark 4 on the ground from where he had fired his gun one of the 5 times, as well as some metal fragments from a bullet. 6 So likely what happened is the bullet hit, and it 7 splintered so there's this pattern of fragments around 8 it. 9 Hopefully, it's going to pull up the 10 picture here. Right in this area -- there we go. You 11 can see that strike mark right there, and then these 12 fragments of bullets were around it in this area, and 13 then this is a fired bullet that we believe to be from 14 either Officer Daul or Officer Corno that was recovered, 15 just sitting on the sidewalk right there. 16 MR. REES: If anyone needs to move closer 17 to see, feel free to do that. We have plenty of time. 18 And also, Detective, if you want -- you can 19 also go to the screen if you want to point out 20 something, so we make sure we're all looking at the same 21 thing. 22 Does anybody have any questions about this? 23 (No response.) 24 Q BY MR. REES: And what you are doing when 25 you click on those locations, you are then showing us
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 20 1 the photos that relate to the placard? 2 A Yeah, these are photos that have been 3 embedded into the scan system for presentation. These 4 were not -- the scanning system didn't do this 5 automatically. A CT criminalist that did the scan put 6 these in there. 7 Q And for clarity, can you walk us through by 8 placard number what we're seeing? 9 A You bet. Placard 10 is the tourniquet that 10 was laying here. Placard 11 is a 40 millimeter foam 11 round. When he was shot and he collapsed to the ground, 12 the gun was still in his hand, and they could still see 13 movement. He was given commands, you know, raise your 14 hands, move away from the gun, rollover. And he was not 15 responding to those commands. 16 So members of the SERT Team were attempting 17 to get up to him to render medical aid, asked for and 18 received permission to fire one 40-millimeter foam 19 round. It's an impact munition to strike them to see if 20 that would elicit any kind of response. 21 It struck him in the left hip over here, 22 and there was no response. So he was not an active 23 danger at that time, so they were able to move forward 24 and get him that medical treatment. This is the handgun 25 that he had.
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 21 1 Q You mentioned, Detective, that during the 2 failed negotiation Mr. Johnson had told the police that 3 he had a real gun, and it was a .38-caliber Rossi 4 revolver. And, in fact, was that the sort of gun he 5 had? 6 A Yes, it is. 7 Q And how many rounds does that gun hold in 8 the cylinder? 9 A This is a five-shot revolver, and that was 10 also something he had announced that it was a five-shot 11 revolver. 12 Q And you personally looked into the cylinder 13 after the fact, correct? 14 A I did, yes. 15 Q What did you observe? 16 A So inside the cylinder there's five 17 cartridges. Three of them had strike marks from the 18 firing pin, indicating that those had been fired. And 19 then the two remaining cartridges did not have strike 20 marks on them. 21 Q So was that consistent with two shots fired 22 into the ground by Mr. Johnson, and one shot fired into 23 the parking structure? 24 A Yes. So of the five rounds in the 25 cylinder, three had been fired.
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 22 1 Q And I don't know whether the Grand Jury is 2 clear on this or not, but just to mention, if you would, 3 the difference between this sort of firearm and a 4 semi-automatic gun which would eject those casings? 5 A Sure. If you are not familiar with how a 6 semi-automatic firearm works, in this case we will use a 7 pistol as an example. So the cartridges, the bullets 8 are kept in what is called a magazine. And that 9 magazine is inserted into the pistol, usually from 10 underneath. 11 So then you pull the slide back, and as the 12 slide goes forward, it strips one the round in the 13 magazine out of there, loads it into the barrel. And 14 then the slide goes forward, seals the breach, and it's 15 ready to fire. 16 So you pull the trigger, and the firing pin 17 comes forward. It strikes the back of the cartridge, 18 the casing, right in the primer. Ignites the gun powder 19 that is inside the casing. And then that basically 20 explodes, if you will, the bullet out of the barrel, 21 firing the gun. 22 When that occurs, there's pressure from 23 that expelled gun powder, which forces the slide to the 24 rear. And as the slide travels to the rear, that casing 25 that is left in there is pulled back out, and it's
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 23 1 kicked out the side of the gun. Then the slide travels 2 forward, grabs the next round, pushes it forward, and 3 over and over until the gun is empty. 4 In a revolver, all the rounds are loaded 5 inside the cylinder, and that cylinder just turns, 6 lining the bullet inside the cylinder up with the 7 barrel, so when the firing pin hits, it launches the 8 bullet down. And then there's no recoil, because 9 everything is fixed. So you pull the trigger again, or 10 you pull the hammer back and it rotates the barrel, 11 lining the next shot up -- or rotates the cylinder, not 12 the barrel, and so all the casings are maintained inside 13 the firearm. 14 Q So that's why you were able to see the 15 casings when you looked inside the cylinder, even though 16 they had been fired? 17 A That is correct. Yes. 18 Q So just for reference, we previously viewed 19 11 and 12, placard 11 and 12, so the foam rounds, the 20 handgun. And then there was a bullet strike in the tree 21 right here, which we believed to be from either Officer 22 Corno or Officer Daul's firearms. And again, that's 23 another overall photo showing the items in place. 24 And when -- obviously, this is not the 25 position that Mr. Johnson was in when all of this was
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 24 1 going on, when the medics approached with the two 2 members of our SERT Team. They were advised by the 3 medics to grab his wrists and drag him away from the 4 gun, so that they could safely work on him. So that's 5 why he's in the position that you see there. 6 Q If we look back at the parking structure 7 where Officer Corno and Officer Daul fired their 8 weapons, did you find any physical evidence there that 9 helped you determine how many shots they fired? 10 A Yeah. We found three shell casings where 11 Officer Corno had been positioned, and four shell 12 casings where Officer Daul had been positioned. 13 Q And so do you believe, based on that, and 14 based on other aspects of your investigation, did that 15 connect to the number of shots each officer fired in 16 this case? 17 A That is correct. Yes. 18 Q What else, besides the casings themselves, 19 did you do to determine how many shots were fired? 20 A So we actually took possession of Officer 21 Daul's and Officer Corno's firearms, and all their 22 magazines, and we did what is called a count down. So 23 we remove all the bullets from the magazines, anything 24 that is left in the weapon. In this case, they each had 25 one round in their rifles.
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 25 1 All of those were removed, count them up, 2 because we know how many should go in the magazine. We 3 know what the policy is for how many should go in there, 4 and just do the math. And we were able to determine 5 Officer Corno was missing three cartridges, and Officer 6 Daul was missing four. 7 So what you see here at placards 3, 4, 5, 8 and 6 are just those expended cartridges from the rifle. 9 And then items 1 and 2 here, that's just a bag that 10 holds a gas mask. And this is what is known as a pick 11 for using to gain entry into buildings, locked doors, 12 and things like that. 13 And those were of significance because they 14 belonged to Officer Daul, and he set them down. So we 15 know, because he set them down right there, that's where 16 Officer Daul was. 17 A JUROR: Can you do me a favor? Repeat to 18 me how many each of the officers -- so I can write it 19 down? I didn't remember by the time -- 20 THE WITNESS: Officer Daul fired four 21 times, and Officer Corno fired three times. 22 A JUROR: Thank you. 23 Q BY MR. REES: Before we leave the visual 24 image of the scene, is there anything that I neglected 25 to ask about that you think is important for the Grand
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 26 1 Jury to know? 2 A No, I think I will just point out that what 3 you see here, this vehicle, is the vehicle that the 4 security officer parked in there to prohibit anybody 5 from further driving into this lot. And then he had 6 moved to this tree back here, where he then stayed for 7 the duration. 8 Q "He" meaning the security officer? 9 A Yeah. 10 MR. REES: And before we move from there, 11 ladies and gentlemen, do you have any questions, or did 12 you want to see something again. 13 (No response.) 14 MR. REES: And of course, this will be 15 available throughout the hearing, but this is your 16 opportunity with this type of camera. 17 Q BY MR. REES: Well, moving away from the 18 visual scene, you had an opportunity to look at the 19 deceased at the scene, correct? 20 A That is correct, yes. 21 Q Did you observe what has been described as 22 blue ink notes on his hands? 23 A Yeah. We noticed that fairly quickly, that 24 he had what appeared to be handwritten notes on the 25 palms of both of his hands, and then extending into the
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 27 1 wrist areas, as well. 2 Q And were you able to read any of those 3 notes? 4 A I am -- they are written on his hands. I 5 don't know how long they have been on there, but some of 6 it had started to wear off so I was not able to read it 7 word-for-word, but I could make out phrases. He talked 8 about being bipolar, and wanting to end it all, so they 9 were some sort of suicide note that he had written on 10 his hands. 11 Q And then did you observe the deputy medical 12 examiner making their initial contact with the deceased? 13 A Yes. Yeah, I was there when deputy medical 14 examiner, in this case, Lindsay Fitzsimmons, came out to 15 the scene. 16 Q Did she find anything of interest? 17 A So in his back pocket he had a clear Ziploc 18 bag that had several notes in it, as well. And we were 19 able to read through those notes. And they are notes to 20 his wife, to his kids, to his brother, to his mom, just 21 basically explaining his bipolar was too much for him. 22 He had gone to a dark place, he couldn't get out of. He 23 didn't want anybody in the family to blame themselves, 24 he said, basically, this is all on me, I just can't 25 handle it anymore.
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 28 1 Q Based on your training and experience, did 2 those notes appear clearly to be suicide notes? 3 A Yeah. Absolutely. And having them in that 4 Ziploc bag, I think he went to extra effort to make sure 5 that they were protected from what he foresaw was going 6 to happen to him. 7 Q Meaning protected from blood? 8 A Protected from being diluted by blood, 9 getting ruined by blood. And it seems he took the extra 10 step of also writing it down on his hands, just to be 11 sure. 12 Q In terms of background on Mr. Johnson, how 13 old was he? 14 A 51 years. 15 Q And I think you mentioned that at the time 16 of this event, his wife lived in Forest Grove? 17 A Forest Grove. Yes. 18 Q And he had been living, however, on the 19 Oregon Coast? 20 A Yes, he had maintained an address in 21 Tillamook, I believe. And we went -- Detective 22 Sponhauer and I, we went and spoke with his wife, Anya 23 Doll. And she said things had been tough between them 24 recently, which is why he -- because of his bipolar, and 25 he wasn't taking his medication the way he should have
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 29 1 been. 2 So he had moved to Tillamook to -- they 3 were kind of on the verge of a break. They were heading 4 down the road towards divorce. And she mentioned that 5 he had, for at least ten years, struggled with bipolar, 6 struggled with suicide. She was not surprised, really, 7 that this is how it would turn out for him. 8 Q In reviewing some of the mental health 9 records that were obtained through the course of the 10 investigation, did you see whether he had expressed 11 suicidal thoughts or tendencies in the past? 12 A Yeah. And one of the most recent ones was 13 in June. He was in Fargo, North Dakota, and he had 14 checked himself into a clinic claiming suicidal 15 thoughts. He was there for three days before he was 16 released, and then headed back to Portland shortly after 17 that. 18 Q Do you know what the discharge date was 19 from the hospital in North Dakota? 20 A I believe it was the 17th of June. Let me 21 check on that. The 19th of June. 22 Q So on June 19th of 2015, he was discharged 23 after his voluntary commitment to the mental hospital in 24 Fargo, North Dakota? 25 A Yes. Yes, that is correct.
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 30 1 Q And then were you able to learn through 2 records when Mr. Johnson obtained the .38-caliber Rossi 3 revolver? 4 A Yeah. He purchased that on June 29th at 5 the Fred Meyer in Hillsboro. 6 Q Is this the record that you were provided 7 by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms National 8 Tracing Center that shows the purchase of that firearm? 9 A Yes, this is it. 10 Q On November 7th, the Saturday following 11 this Friday incident, did you attend the autopsy 12 performed by Dr. Clifford Nelson? 13 A Yes, I did. 14 Q And how many gunshot wounds did you 15 observe, and did Dr. Nelson report to you during the 16 examination? 17 A He had a total of five gunshot wounds. 18 Four were in his torso and abdomen area, and then he had 19 one in his lower left leg. 20 Q What did Dr. Nelson determine the cause of 21 death to be? 22 A The cause of death was the multiple gunshot 23 wounds in the chest and abdomen area. 24 Q And did Dr. Nelson discuss with you his 25 opinion and conclusion regarding the manner of death in
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 31 1 this case? 2 A He did. He, based on everything we had 3 learned up to that point, the multiple suicide notes, 4 the notes on his hands, the actions that Mr. Johnson had 5 taken out at the scene by initially firing two rounds at 6 the ground, and then actually pointing his firearm at 7 the officers and firing at them, based on all of that he 8 ruled that this was a case of suicide, but suicide by 9 the police, through their intervention. 10 MR. REES: Thank you, Detective. Are there 11 any questions from the Grand Jury? 12 (No response.) 13 MR. REES: Hearing no questions, Detective, 14 we will release you. Thank you for coming in. 15 16 CHELSEA CATCHPOLE, 17 produced as a witness, having been first duly sworn, 18 was examined and testified as follows: 19 20 DIRECT EXAMINATION 21 BY MR. REES: 22 Q When you are ready, if you could state your 23 first and last name, and for the record, spell your 24 name? 25 A My name is Chelsea Catchpole,
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 32 1 C-H-E-L-S-E-A. Last name, C-A-T-C-H-P-O-L-E. 2 Q What do you do for a living? 3 A I do patient registration in the emergency 4 room at Good Samaritan Hospital. 5 Q So are you the first person that people see 6 when they come into the ER? 7 A I am, yes. 8 Q And you were telling me earlier that right 9 now your work station is in a different place than it 10 has been in the past, because of some construction? 11 A Yes. 12 Q What area of the Northwest Portland, or 13 street does your office look out at? 14 A Our current emergency room triage check-in 15 area faces 22nd -- 22nd Street or Avenue, whatever that 16 is. It's just right next to the main entrance of the 17 hospital. 18 Q And were you working on November 6, 2015, 19 which is a Friday, when this incident occurred? 20 A Yes, I was. 21 Q And what shift do you work? 22 A I work graveyard shift, 6:00 p.m. to 23 6:30 a.m., Thursday, Friday, Saturday. So I was at the 24 end of my Thursday shift that Friday morning. 25 Q And what happened during that shift that
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 33 1 ultimately brought the police to the hospital? 2 A It was probably around 5:40, 5:45-ish. I 3 was just sitting at my desk. We didn't have any 4 patients in the waiting room. And a guy walks in. And 5 he didn't fully come into the room. He just came to the 6 doorway, and said there was someone outside with a gun, 7 and asked us to call the police. 8 And then back out -- before we could even 9 process what had just happened he was gone and outside 10 the hospital again. And I wasn't entirely sure what was 11 going on, because everything happened so quickly. And I 12 wasn't sure if it was actually someone with a gun, or we 13 deal with a lot of mental health patients at this 14 hospital. So it could have been someone seeing 15 something. 16 So I called security for the hospital, 17 because I thought that would be the first -- our 18 security assess, since he said it was in a parking lot 19 across the street from us, so it was still our property. 20 So I called security. 21 And our head security officer for the 22 night, Rocky Miller, came down and she grabbed my 23 coworker, Sue and I, because we were the only people who 24 saw this gentlemen come in. And we walked outside to 25 the corner of 22nd, and I think it's Lovejoy that is
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 34 1 right there, to see the parking lot that the gentleman 2 said that there was someone in. 3 And we didn't see anyone, but the gentleman 4 who had come into the emergency room. And he was kind 5 of like standing off in some bushes that are along the 6 side of the parking lot, and there was people coming in 7 and out of the parking lot, because it's a physicians -- 8 it's one of our employee parking lots. 9 And we thought that was kind of strange 10 that that was the only person that was out of the 11 ordinary that was in that parking lot. And that's when 12 Rocky called police, and she told Sue and I to go back 13 inside, and we waited inside. And we saw the other 14 security guards go out there, but we weren't really sure 15 what was happening at that point, because I was just 16 inside hanging out at my front desk. 17 And around 6:00 a.m. my other coworkers got 18 there, and I flexed out early, because my full shift is 19 to 6:30, but as soon as we get coverage there, we are 20 allowed to go. And this was right at the time that 21 security was in the process of putting the whole 22 hospital on a lockdown. And they let my coworker and I 23 leave, before they did the final lockdown, and that's 24 when I left for the day. I didn't find out anything 25 else that had happened until I woke up later that day.
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 35 1 Q Okay. Just to step back for a moment, it 2 sounds as if your encounter with this person was very 3 brief? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Brief though it was, did you have any 6 impression of this person's demeanor or presentation 7 when they made the statement? 8 A He just seemed frazzled, would be the best 9 word. I mean, he didn't -- yeah, he just seemed kind of 10 frazzled and panicked. So it was just very bizarre. He 11 didn't look like he was homeless or anything. He just 12 looked like a random person off the street. 13 Q When you went outside with security, was it 14 clear to you that the person you saw in the parking area 15 was, in fact, the very same person who had come into 16 your area? 17 A Yeah. Because he was wearing like an 18 orange vest, with like a long sleeved shirt under it. 19 And the person we saw in the parking lot was the same -- 20 same orange vest. There was no gun visible at this 21 time, but just his actions of kind of like standing off 22 to the side was just kind of bizarre to us. And the 23 fact that we didn't see anyone else in the parking lot 24 that shouldn't have been there at the time. 25 MR. REES: Any questions from the Grand
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 36 1 Jury? 2 (No response.) 3 Q BY MR. REES: Anything I didn't ask you 4 that you think might be important to mention? 5 A Not that I can think of. 6 MR. REES: Thank you very much for coming 7 in this morning. 8 9 RAQUEL MILLER, 10 produced as a witness, having been first duly sworn, 11 was examined and testified as follows: 12 THE WITNESS: Absolutely. 13 14 DIRECT EXAMINATION 15 BY MR. REES: 16 Q Good morning. And if you would please 17 state and spell your first and last names? 18 A Raquel Miller, R-A-Q-U-E-L. Last name, 19 MILLER. Also go by Rocky, R-O-C-K-Y. 20 Q What is your occupation? 21 A The lead security officer at Good Samaritan 22 Hospital. 23 Q How many security officers do you supervise 24 on a shift? 25 A Three.
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 37 1 Q And do you, in that position, interact 2 frequently with the Portland Police Bureau? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Given where Good Samaritan Hospital is 5 located in Northwest Portland, do you have frequent 6 interactions both with patients and staff, as well as 7 people who live in that residential area that interface 8 with the hospital? 9 A I would say patients and staff, yeah. 10 Q So -- 11 A Residents, I wouldn't know who they were if 12 they weren't a patient. 13 Q So what I am getting at, really, is your 14 focus would be on the campus of the hospital, and then 15 what goes on beyond the boundaries of the hospital with 16 regard to the police? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Let me ask you about the incident that 19 occurred on a Friday morning November 6, 2015. 20 Were you on duty at that time? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And when did you first become aware of some 23 kind of report of a man with a gun at the hospital? 24 A I think it was about 5:20 a.m. My shift 25 ended at 6:00, but about 5:20 I got a call over the
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 38 1 radio that a patient accessed -- Chelsea, the lady you 2 just spoke with, had called in and said she wanted to 3 see me in the triage area. 4 And when I got there, Chelsea and then Sue 5 Williams both told me that they had a weird thing 6 happen. They weren't sure they should tell me, they 7 just wanted me to know. But a gentleman had come to the 8 triage area, which is our -- we're in the middle of a 9 remodel, so it's kind of a conference room weird little 10 area in the front. 11 But he came in and said, there's a man 12 outside with a gun, and then left, just as quickly. And 13 she thought that was odd, and wanted me to know. And I 14 asked them which way did he go, so we all went 15 outside -- do you want me to keep going? 16 Q Sure, as long as you are answering the 17 question. 18 A Okay. And tell me if I wander off. 19 Q I will. 20 A But he -- we got out there, and I asked 21 them if that was the guy, because I saw someone -- they 22 said he was wearing a vest, some kind of tan invest. 23 And it was pretty dark, but you could see a vest like 24 clothing on this person in the dark. And they said, 25 Yeah, that's him.
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 39 1 I said okay. Well, I saw something in his 2 hand, so I told them to go back. And I can keep going? 3 Q When you say you saw something in his 4 hands, could you tell what it was? 5 A No. It was a shiny object. 6 Q So you told Chelsea to go back into the 7 triage area? 8 A Yes. 9 Q What did you do? 10 A I went across the street, on 22nd, to get a 11 better look. 12 Q From that location, could you see any more? 13 A No, not really. The fact that he said 14 there was someone out there with a gun, and it was him 15 made me think he probably had a gun, but I couldn't 16 tell. And that was a call for Portland Police, not for 17 me, to make that judgment. So kept eyes on him while I 18 called dispatch. 19 Q Do you and your security officers carry 20 firearms? 21 A No. 22 Q So I assume the hospital has a policy that 23 relates to a situation where you believe someone may be 24 armed with a firearm? 25 A Yes.
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 40 1 Q And would that policy be to turn to the 2 police for help? 3 A Right. 4 Q You are not going to contact that person 5 yourself? 6 A Yes. Right. I didn't engage him at all. 7 He saw me. I was probably, looking at it now, I was 8 probably 30 feet away, maybe 20 feet away. But it was 9 really dark, and trying to get a visual of what it was 10 in his hand, but he kept trying to show me what it was 11 with various different gestures. 12 Q This individual was trying to show you what 13 he had in his hand? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And -- 16 A But he went like this (indicating) with it, 17 and he did that a couple times and he put it down. And 18 then he would bring it up again, and put it down. And I 19 kept staring at it, because I couldn't really see the 20 outline of a gun. 21 At that point, I felt -- I had already 22 talked to dispatch, and they said police were enroute, 23 so I had -- while I was still on the phone with 24 dispatch, one of my guys went up to block the parking 25 lot, because people were driving right by him. They
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 41 1 couldn't see him out there. 2 So I had him go do it, and another one make 3 a couple phone calls. And then when he got over there 4 he said it maybe even looked like a pop can. He 5 couldn't tell, either. It wasn't until he held it 6 straight up in the air like this, that I went, oh, crap, 7 it really is a gun. So I called dispatch back. 8 Q And just for the record, you were extending 9 your right hand all the way above your head? 10 A Yes. 11 Q To demonstrate how he was holding his 12 object, and it was at that time that you recognized that 13 it was, in fact, a gun? 14 A Yeah. 15 Q At that point you had already called 911 16 correct? 17 A Yes. Yes. 18 Q But then you sent additional information to 19 dispatch to confirm that you are now seeing a firearm? 20 A Yes. And to tell them I didn't see police 21 yet. And I said, there's people driving by, and there's 22 people walking by. And they said, well, they are there. 23 They have eyes on him, so they told me where to look to 24 see them. 25 Q When you made the second call when you
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 42 1 realized he had a gun, what is going through your mind 2 as the lead security officer for the hospital? 3 A Well, even before that, I was thinking if 4 it is a gun and he bolts for the hospital, what am I 5 going to do before police get here? But the police were 6 there. They were just hiding around the corner in the 7 dark, trying to get eyes on him as well. 8 Q Knowing then that the police were in the 9 area, what did you do? Meaning, did you remain in the 10 area, or did you go somewhere else? 11 A Well, before that, I stayed -- I gave the 12 officers an option. I said, I need somebody to block 13 the parking lot, and I need somebody else to get on the 14 other phone. So one chose to move the car, one chose to 15 make the calls. And then he stayed with the car, and I 16 told him to go to a safe place and wait. 17 Q Meaning one of your security officers? 18 A Yeah. The one who chose to take the car. 19 And it wasn't until after I saw the police around the 20 corner, he waved at me in the dark, that another guy 21 came up behind me on 22nd and called me over to get 22 behind him. 23 Q Did you remain in the area, then, 24 throughout the police contact with the subject? 25 A Within a block.
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 43 1 Q Were you able to hear any of the things 2 that happened? 3 A Yes. 4 Q During the next, about, two hours? 5 A Yes. 6 Q What did you hear? 7 A Well, at first I heard them trying to talk 8 to him. They were dialoguing with him. And I think he 9 might have said something back, but it wasn't 10 intelligible to me. 11 Q When you say them, do you mean the police? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Could you hear what they were saying? 14 A No, it sounded to me like standard, hey, 15 what's going on today? What is going on, Bud? Why are 16 you here? Why are you in this situation? 17 And at that point there were more officers, 18 as well. And then at that point he had me go back, and 19 then I was -- I got busy trying to keep people from 20 coming in the hospital. We had already locked down so 21 nobody could come in, so we were trying to get people 22 out of any possible line of fire. 23 Q Were you ever able to hear any words that 24 were specifically said from the subject back to the 25 police?
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 44 1 A I didn't hear the subject say -- I only 2 heard him say one thing in the beginning that didn't 3 make sense to me, but I might have been too far away or 4 focused on moving myself, or watching all the other 5 people coming in the hospital, and possibly get in the 6 line of fire. I didn't want anyone to get injured. So 7 I did not hear him say anything. 8 Q And you could hear the police, you said, 9 from your location, could you see anything that was 10 going on? 11 A Yes. 12 Q What could you see? 13 A I just saw them positioning themselves, and 14 I assumed they were still talking to him, because it 15 didn't seem like two hours at the time. But I knew they 16 were trying to work with him. And at that point I was 17 on Marshall, so I had moved down a street, trying to 18 keep people from walking in the line of fire. It was 19 right at the busy time. Everybody was coming in. 20 And I looked up the street, and at that 21 point I saw the gentleman standing broadside to me, and 22 that was the best view I'd had of him all morning, 23 because it was now all of a sudden daylight. 24 I am like, wow, he's on the sidewalk now, 25 where he was in the parking lot. Now he's on the
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 45 1 sidewalk, closer to the police. I told the people, I 2 said, Now, this is real so you just need to be patient 3 and wait with me. 4 And a few minutes after that is when I 5 heard the first bang, and then a few minutes later, 6 several -- several gunshots. And it seemed like, to me, 7 I had heard one more by itself, but -- but I don't know. 8 And then that was it. And then a female officer -- I am 9 sorry, after the first shot, one of my officers said, he 10 shot at the ground. He shot at the ground. And I said 11 okay, and then the barrage, and the extra one. 12 And then a female officer went to her 13 trunk, and I looked at her. I said, Are we okay? Is it 14 clear, and she said, Yeah, they took him. 15 Q Backing up a little bit, at the beginning 16 of this incident, were you the one who initiated the 17 lockdown at the hospital? 18 A Yes -- well, it was me, along with the 19 nursing supervisor, and my manager, as well. 20 Q And it's my understanding that was a 21 two-step process, or at least two different codes were 22 called out. Can you explain that? 23 A Right. Well, I guess there's been some 24 discussion about it. Initially, we knew we needed to 25 lock it down in case he decided to run. And at this
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 46 1 point he was seeming like he was suicidal, but if he 2 decided to be homicidal at any point, he had plenty of 3 targets that were close enough. 4 And so we knew we needed to lock it down. 5 So that was a Code Silver, Level 2. So that means 6 nobody can come in. And then we started letting 7 employees, and then a little bit later on, people who 8 had imminent surgeries and whatnot, could come through a 9 back door. But only people with ID were allowed in. 10 And then -- well, initially we said we were 11 going to do a Code Black, which is an active shooter. 12 And then we decided since the nursing supervisor didn't 13 feel that -- she wanted the police to say it was a gun 14 before we did a Code Black. So we downgraded from Code 15 Black to the Silver. And then when the police did say, 16 it is a gun, then we went back to Code Black. 17 Q Sounds as if the hospital has discussed and 18 planned for different scenarios where you might have a 19 shooter in the hospital, unfortunately? 20 A Yes. Right. 21 Q And you actually have these different 22 contingencies? 23 A Right. 24 Q Was there ever a point during this 25 situation where you felt you might be in danger?
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 47 1 A I felt I was -- I don't know. I think I 2 was more concerned about other people than myself. I 3 felt that he had already established visual of me from 4 the very beginning, and had had opportunity, should he 5 choose to. He just kept wanting to show me that this 6 was a gun, and it took me a little bit of light to see 7 that it was a gun. 8 Q I asked it, because in your interview with 9 detectives at one point you said that you ducked? 10 A Oh, no, I didn't duck. I don't believe 11 that was me. Maybe it's when the officer pulled up on 12 22nd, and had me go behind him. 13 Q Well, okay. It's when you heard a shot, 14 and you said, I ducked back real quick. 15 A Oh, I ducked back, because I had peaked out 16 and saw him, and I was getting ready to peak again, and 17 yeah, that startled me. I went, okay -- ducked back in. 18 Didn't duck this way, just ducked back in around a 19 building. 20 Q As to other people in the area -- 21 A Nobody was getting past me at that point. 22 Q You said you were concerned that there were 23 pedestrians -- 24 A Yes. 25 Q -- who would be in the line of fire?
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 48 1 A Yes. 2 Q Did you have a hard time getting people's 3 attention? 4 A Yes. 5 Q What was -- tell us about that, because 6 when this started, it was dark. 7 A Right. 8 Q But soon the sun was coming up, and this 9 was a beautiful fall morning. 10 A Uh-huh. 11 Q It was becoming daylight. Did a lot of 12 people start coming out into the streets? 13 A Yeah. Yeah. Actually, in the very 14 beginning, like I said, people were driving right up to 15 him. And that's when I said we have to block that, 16 because that's our parking lot. And there was a 17 construction worker walking right in front of him, 18 people there, police presence was there. And then there 19 were bicyclists. And you can imagine, this very busy 20 street, and so many different ways in, and everybody is 21 coming through. 22 So we're trying to holler, the police are 23 trying to holler, hey, get back. Get back. I was 24 trying to tell people, No, seriously, you are right in 25 the line of fire. There's something going on here.
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 49 1 There's police here for a reason. You need to stay 2 back. But everybody -- they have an appointment, they 3 want to make it, and they don't want to be late. 4 So that part was definitely hard to keep 5 everybody -- to have everybody understand, because then 6 as you are talking to someone in a vehicle, you have 7 five people trying to walk down the street. Someone 8 coming up this way, How about if I go this way? No, you 9 can't go that way, either. You cannot go any farther. 10 Q Thank you very much. 11 MR. REES: Are there any questions from the 12 Grand Jury? 13 (No response.) 14 MR. REES: Ms. Miller, thanks again for 15 coming in. 16 THE WITNESS: You bet. 17 18 SCOTT EMAN, 19 produced as a witness, having been first duly sworn, 20 was examined and testified as follows: 21 THE WITNESS: I do. 22 23 DIRECT EXAMINATION 24 BY MR. REES: 25 Q All right, sir, when you are ready, if you
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 50 1 could please state your first and last name, and spell 2 those names? 3 A Scott Eman, S-C-O-T-T. Last name, E-M-A-N. 4 Q And Mr. Eman, are you a security officer at 5 Good Samaritan Hospital? 6 A Yes, for Legacy, in general. 7 Q Do you work at the other Legacy properties, 8 as well? 9 A Yes. Yes, I do. 10 Q Were you working at Good Sam Hospital in 11 Northwest Portland when these events happened on the 12 morning of November 6, 2015? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And were you working under the supervision 15 of Raquel Miller? 16 A Yes. 17 Q When did you first become aware that 18 morning that something unusual was happening outside of 19 the hospital property? 20 A It was around 5:40 when we got dispatched 21 to a potential individual in our physician lot, which is 22 the open lot that you see behind you, that the 23 individual was pacing back and forth with a handgun. 24 Q I am just going to rotate this view around. 25 A That's our Parking Structure 1.
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 51 1 Q And I am going to change views, which will 2 show where you eventually end up, at least. 3 A Okay. 4 Q Because now from this perspective, which is 5 a little bit to the south, I believe, of the original 6 view, we see this white SUV, which I believe was your 7 vehicle? 8 A Correct. 9 Q Well, before you get to that point, just to 10 back up, what information did you first receive, and 11 what did you do when you received it? 12 A I was -- I was dispatched to the corner of 13 PS 2 on 22nd to meet up with Rocky to get more 14 information, and get further instruction from her of 15 what is actually happening at our physicians lot. 16 Q PS 2? 17 A PS 2 is across from physicians lot -- 18 across from Lovejoy Street. 19 Q PS 2, is that Parking Structure 2? 20 A Parking Structure 2. 21 Q And what information did Rocky, or Raquel 22 Miller, give you? 23 A She called both me and Officer Walleed 24 over, and she instructed one of us to move the vehicle 25 to the entrance of the physician's lot, and one of us
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 52 1 called our manager to notify of the situation, and I 2 moved the vehicle. 3 Q So in the image here, that white vehicle, 4 that's where you parked it? 5 A That is correct. 6 Q What was the purpose of that? 7 A So no other employees could actually enter 8 that lot, and get close to the individual pacing back 9 and forth in that lot. 10 Q Well, tell the Grand Jury about that now, 11 because you haven't really mentioned that. But were you 12 able to see this individual who was pacing around? 13 A Yes. Yes. 14 Q Where was he when you first saw him? 15 A He was on the northern side of the lot near 16 Lovejoy, pacing back and forth near that brick wall -- 17 that's on the far side. That's going north of that -- 18 of this point of view. 19 And he was getting -- once I pulled up, he 20 was actually getting closer to me, walking towards me. 21 But then he stopped to look into other cars that were 22 already parked in that lot. And that's when I decided 23 to turn off the vehicle and get out. It would be on the 24 other side of that vehicle on the far end of that lot. 25 Q To this direction, or the other direction?
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 53 1 A In at that lot, in the physician's lot 2 where I parked, it would be toward the end of the lot, 3 going north, which is -- like right where that maroon 4 car is, going back and forth on that line. 5 MR. REES: In case anyone is wondering, 6 this post right here is the calibrations device for the 7 scanning instrument. That's all that is, just to make 8 sure that everything is measuring up. They use that as 9 a point of reference. 10 Q BY MR. REES: When you saw this person 11 pacing, were you able to see whether he had a gun? 12 A It looked like a beer can at first, but I 13 didn't want to second-guess myself, so I turned the 14 vehicle off, locked the doors, and then moved around to 15 the back of the vehicle, the corner of the vehicle, and 16 then made my way across the street, across 22nd to PS 1, 17 Parking Structure 1, to near Kearney Street. 18 Q Were you having interactions with any of 19 the pedestrians or other people who were in the area? 20 A No, it was pretty -- there was pretty much 21 no one in the area at that point in time. It was very 22 early in the day. The only time I had interaction was 23 when I was across the street from Kearney, on 22nd, 24 redirecting foot traffic coming into the scene. That 25 was when the police already made contact with the
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 54 1 individual. 2 Q And we're looking down in that direction, 3 so on 22nd and Kearney, does that show the area where 4 you were? 5 A Yeah. I was behind that tree near the 6 gated parking on the right side. 7 Q This tree right here? 8 A Correct. 9 Q Does everyone see the perspective then, 10 from that tree, through the intersection, down towards 11 that area, right? 12 So tell the Grand Jury, if you would, what 13 you saw and heard from your position and down the 14 street, here. 15 A I saw the lights come on when they 16 initially -- when the police made contact with the -- I 17 believe his name is Michael Johnson. And they asked -- 18 I could barely make out what they were saying, but I 19 could get the gist of it when he was responding, because 20 he was yelling. And he was very agitated, it looked 21 like. Or it seemed. 22 When they made contact, they asked, Why are 23 you -- Why are you doing this? Who are you? And 24 they -- he goes, My name is Michael Johnson. He was 25 yelling at them. And then he goes -- he spouts off a
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 55 1 couple of sequences of numbers. I don't know if it was 2 his Social Security, or his date of birth, or maybe 3 both. And he goes, And I am a dead man. And that's 4 when it all started, pretty much. 5 Q You heard him say that? Could you hear 6 whether the police seemed to be continuing to try to 7 talk to him or not? 8 A Yeah. Yeah, continuing to talk to him. I 9 couldn't really make out what was going on. I think at 10 one point he mentioned that he doesn't have a cell 11 phone, so I am assuming they gave him a cell phone. 12 After they gave him a cell phone, everything kind of 13 calmed down, and quieted down. I didn't hear any 14 yelling. I didn't see him pace back and forth for a 15 little bit. 16 Then he came out of nowhere, and was still 17 pacing the lot. And that was over a course of time, 18 like probably 10, 15 minutes. 19 Q And I think you said you were behind the 20 tree? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Literally behind the tree? 23 A I was literally behind the tree. 24 Q Why were you behind the tree? 25 A Well, initially I was over at PS 1, behind
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 56 1 a -- there was a green electrical box, because I made my 2 way over to PS 1. And then there were police officers 3 that were behind that truck that you saw over 4 kitty-corner from PS 1 telling me to come over across 5 the street to get out of the way. So I made my way over 6 behind the tree. 7 And then they made their way over across to 8 Kearney, behind the vehicle that was parked on the 9 corner right there by the gated parking. And I just -- 10 there was no other officer around to direct foot 11 traffic, so I took it upon myself to do so. 12 Q So as the morning wore on and it started to 13 become daylight -- because you mentioned in the 14 beginning there was little or no foot traffic, but did 15 that change as the morning went on? 16 A Yeah. People want to walk their dogs, go 17 to work. I had to pretty much tell them, this is a 18 closed off area. 19 Q What eventually did you see or hear? 20 A Eventually, I ended up looking back and saw 21 he was still on the phone. He had the gun to his 22 temple, walked pacing back and forth throughout the 23 whole lot. He had his other hand up to his ear. I 24 believe that's where the cell phone was, where he was 25 talking with the police. He got agitated, walking away
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 57 1 from negotiators. 2 Because he would always make his way toward 3 PS 1, and I am assuming that's where the voices for the 4 negotiators were at. And that was behind the van, the 5 white van that you saw, across from PS 1. 6 And when he turned away from that area and 7 walked into the lot again, because he actually made his 8 way out of the lot, onto the sidewalk, a little bit onto 9 the street, and back onto the lot. He got agitated, and 10 then took the gun from his head and whipped it down in a 11 downward motion real quick, and cracked off a shot into 12 the pavement. And I saw the ricochet, and the spark. 13 Q I saw you told the detectives you saw the 14 ricochet, and I was curious what you meant by that. 15 What did you actually see? 16 A Well, I saw the spark into the ground that 17 that would have caused. 18 Q So you thought it was a bullet strike on 19 concrete or something? 20 A Yes. Obviously, it was the sound of a gun 21 going off. 22 Q And did you hear or see anything else after 23 that? 24 A They continued to talk to him, that was 25 about it. No movement, no -- yeah. They just kind of
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 58 1 let that one slide, I guess, police side. 2 Q Well, after that, did you hear or see any 3 additional shots? 4 A Yeah. -- I didn't see the additional shot 5 after that. I did hear it. He -- I was too busy -- on 6 the second shot, I was too busy telling people to 7 redirect themselves, either to 21st or 23rd Street, and 8 to stay out of this road. That's when the second shot 9 went off. And that was probably like, I would say ten 10 minutes after that first shot. But I could be wrong. 11 Q So you heard, but didn't see a second shot. 12 After the second shot, could you see or hear anything 13 that was going on, at that point? 14 A I know he was still on the phone. He was 15 still pacing back and forth. 16 Q Let me ask you about that. You were 17 talking about the cell phone. Did you actually see a 18 cell phone, or are you assuming that he had a cell phone 19 from the way he was positioning his -- 20 A The way he was positioning his hand, and 21 his body, I assumed it. Yes. 22 Q Because it looked like, from his gestures, 23 that he was on a cell phone? 24 A Yeah. And he wasn't yelling anymore, and 25 he wasn't --
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 59 1 Q But in point of fact, you don't know -- 2 A I don't know for a fact. No, I do not. 3 Q So sorry to interrupt. After the second 4 shot, you said he still has his hands up by his head, it 5 looked like? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And then what happened then? 8 A A good time went on again. And again, this 9 is between me looking back and making sure there's no 10 one coming down 22nd. And I am taking all of this in. 11 And he made, probably a good, like, 15 minutes later 12 after the second shot, he made -- now, I couldn't see an 13 aggressive move, but he made a movement towards what I 14 believe were police in that area. 15 And he made an aggressive move, like a 16 swinging motion. And he got out of my line of sight. 17 And then all of a sudden, I hear crack, crack, crack, 18 crack -- I can't remember if it was seven to eight 19 shots. And then I see him stumbling back, hits the 20 tree, and slides down the tree. And that was that. 21 And then the armored car rolls in front of 22 me from Kearney, going down 22nd. And then pulled up in 23 front of him and gave him instruction to drop the gun, 24 turnover, you know. 25 Q From the distance that you were at when he
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 60 1 fired the gun, could you see what kind of gun it was? 2 A All I know, it was a pistol. That's about 3 it. I know it wasn't an assault rifle. 4 Q It was a pistol, and could you tell whether 5 it was blue or black or chrome? 6 A It was chrome. 7 MR. REES: Any questions about that from 8 the Grand Jury? 9 (No response.) 10 MR. REES: Thank you for coming in. 11 THE WITNESS: You are welcome. 12 MR. REES: For the record, I will have you 13 state your name. 14 15 ERIK KAMMERER, 16 produced as a witness, having been previously duly 17 sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 18 THE WITNESS: Erik Kammerer, E-R-I-K, 19 K-A-M-M-E-R-E-R. 20 21 CONTINUING DIRECT EXAMINATION 22 BY MR. REES: 23 Q Detective, we have called you back in at 24 the request the Grand Jury, because they had a question 25 that arose.
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 61 1 MR. REES: And I will let you go ahead and 2 ask. 3 A JUROR: The question we had, there was 4 another witness in here testifying to the assumption 5 that Mr. Johnson had a cell phone in one hand, and a gun 6 in the other. And we're trying to clarify if he indeed 7 had a cell phone he was talking to negotiators on. 8 THE WITNESS: No, he did not. And the 9 negotiators also noticed that he had his hands up, like 10 I described earlier. He had the gun and hand up, and 11 was talking. And they are theorizing that maybe he was 12 on a cell phone. 13 But then they were able to see better, that 14 he was not, and then realized he was just having some 15 sort of internal dialogue where he was talking to 16 himself. I could see how -- because even our trained 17 guys, it looked like maybe he was talking on the phone, 18 and then they figured out that he wasn't. And then 19 there was no cell phone found on his person. 20 Q BY MR. REES: To follow up on the Grand 21 Juror's question, were any efforts made to see whether 22 he might have a cell phone that the police could have 23 reached him on? 24 A Yeah. Absolutely. The guys with the 25 Crisis Negotiation Team were working frantically, trying
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 62 1 to figure out who this guy is. He said his name was 2 Mike Johnson, that's a pretty common name. 3 So he had been walking near this green 4 Honda that was in the parking lot back there, and so 5 they were trying to get the license plate on the car to 6 see who is it registered to, maybe we can get more 7 information about who Mike Johnson really is, dig into 8 him, get a phone number. Maybe call him, call people he 9 knows. Ultimately, it turned out that vehicle wasn't 10 related to him. 11 Q I assume no next-of-kin or relatives were 12 able to be contacted regarding his cell phone 13 communication during that time frame? 14 A No. No, it wasn't until we saw the notes 15 with the wife's name on there that we even knew, and 16 then obviously his ID was in his wallet, so we knew who 17 he was and everything. 18 Q And I think you mentioned he was not 19 associated with the green Honda in the parking lot that 20 he seemed to be going towards. But as it turned out, 21 did he have a vehicle anywhere near this area? 22 A No. We later learned that he had two 23 vehicles, and neither of them were there. So we don't 24 even know how he got to that area. 25 MR. REES: Does that answer the question?
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 63 1 A JUROR: Yes, thank you. 2 MR. REES: While Detective Kammerer is 3 here, are there any other questions that had come up? 4 (No response.). 5 MR. REES: Okay. Thank you. 6 7 ROBIN DUNBAR, 8 produced as a witness, having been first duly sworn, 9 was examined and testified as follows: 10 11 DIRECT EXAMINATION 12 BY MR. REES: 13 Q Thank you, Sergeant. When you are ready, 14 if you could please state and spell your names for us. 15 A It's Robin Dunbar, R-O-B-I-N, D-U-N-B-A-R. 16 Q And what is your current occupation? 17 A I am an acting sergeant with the Portland 18 Police Bureau. 19 Q What is your educational background? 20 A I have an associate's degree in criminal 21 justice, and I also have a certificate of science degree 22 in marketing and middle management. Before I was a -- 23 do you want to know my prior experience? 24 Q Your work experience, sure. 25 A I was hired with the Portland Police Bureau
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 64 1 in March of 2007. Before that, I worked at Bank of 2 America. And when I resigned from there, I was 3 assistant vice president of commercial real estate. 4 Q How many years did you work in the banking 5 industry? 6 A 14 and a half years, 16 total with all the 7 companies that I have been with. 8 Q And then since 2007, with Portland Police 9 Bureau? 10 A Correct. Since March of 2007, I worked 11 as -- prior to being a sergeant, I was a patrol officer 12 on the street, and mostly in downtown Portland. 13 Q Now, if you could, just so we have an 14 understanding, on November 6th, that Friday morning, 15 what shift were you working and out of what precinct? 16 A On that morning I was just coming off night 17 shift, so my shift started on November 5th at 10:00 18 p.m., 2200 hours. My shift was to end at 0800 on the 19 6th, and I work out of the Central Precinct, downtown. 20 Q 0800, so 8:00 Friday morning? 21 A 8:00, Friday morning. Yes. Sorry. 22 Q And then are you assigned as a sergeant to 23 a particular district or districts within Central 24 Precinct, or are you responsible for the entire region? 25 A I am in charge of the -- I am one of two
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 65 1 sergeants that day that was assigned to the entire 2 Central Precinct. Each precinct, if you are a sergeant, 3 you are assigned to the entire precinct area. So that's 4 part of Southeast out to 39th Street. It's also 5 Southwest, kind of hitting Tigard and Lake Oswego 6 border, and it's also hitting 205 and out towards the 7 St. John's Bridge. So that's kind of an idea of what 8 Central Precinct size is in general. 9 Q And, of course, including -- those are the 10 outer -- 11 A Those are the outer boundaries -- 12 Q -- including downtown Portland, and all 13 through that sweep through Northwest Portland? 14 A Correct. Correct. 15 Q And then how many officers, about, would 16 you be supervising during that particular shift? 17 A It depends on the day of the week. It 18 could be up -- usually about 11 officers on a night 19 shift, depending on which day of the week it is. Could 20 be a little more, could be a little bit less. 21 Q And on this particular Thursday night, 22 Friday morning, that shift that you were working up 23 until this call, had anything unusual occurred that had 24 occupied you? 25 A No. Just standard calls throughout the
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 66 1 night, nothing big had happened at that point. Just 2 general calls of service. 3 Q And then we understand that the first call 4 regarding a man with a gun in Northwest Portland near 5 Good Sam hospital was, I believe, 5:38 in the morning. 6 Did you become aware of the initial call, or how did you 7 become involved? 8 A I was on the way to another call out in 9 Southwest Portland, an officer was going to a call of a 10 death call. And so I was going to go out and assist to 11 see if they needed anything from me. And I was heading 12 that way when I heard dispatch come over the radio and 13 say the call with a possible person with a gun was 14 coming out over the radio. 15 Q So what did you do when you heard that? 16 A I got on the radio, and told the dispatch I 17 was preempting from the call I was going to, and that I 18 would be heading that way to the call at 21 and Lovejoy 19 with the person with the possible gun. 20 Q And what did you do when you first arrived 21 at the scene? 22 A At that location, or prior? 23 Q Well, prior, if there's something 24 significant you want to mention. 25 A Just that, prior to there, we had some
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 67 1 officers try to get eyes on the situation to see if they 2 could see anybody in the parking lot. Myself, and 3 another sergeant, and a few other officers met a few 4 blocks away to stage, and make sure there was enough of 5 us in order to be what we call a contact team, enough 6 officers to approach safely and possibly talk to whoever 7 might have a gun, if they did. 8 Q And -- I am sorry, I am looking at the -- 9 in the reports there's mention of a staging area at 10 Northwest 21st and Hoyt? 11 A Correct. And that's what that would have 12 been. 13 Q That's where you had that contact? 14 A Correct. And that's -- usually in a 15 situation where we have somebody with possible firearms, 16 something we would like to stage, and get officers 17 there, get some officers that can get on site and see if 18 they can see what is going on, eyes on. And then the 19 rest of us try to meet at a staging point in order to 20 move together as a team, if we can, to that area. 21 Q And, of course, this is very early on. You 22 are just starting to get information, but as the 23 supervisory sergeant, what are some of the 24 considerations that are going through your mind in terms 25 of what is happening, and what an appropriate response
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 68 1 might be? 2 A Well, right now, the officer is still in 3 charge of the call. We're still trying to find out, 4 one, if there is a person at that location with a gun. 5 We're getting understanding that it was possibly 6 secondhand information. They were near where some 7 transients or homeless people live, so we don't know if 8 it's related to them, related to the parking lot. So 9 we're still gathering intel at that time, from either 10 dispatch or the person that called in, and trying to 11 make sure we have as much correct information as we need 12 in order to address what we might be going into. 13 Q When did you personally become aware that, 14 in fact, this was an individual who is armed with a gun? 15 A Another officer had eyes on, which means 16 that they could see the individual. And they were able 17 to, after a few moments of being on scene, realize that 18 the person did -- appeared that the person did have a 19 gun. 20 Q So now having that information, what did 21 you do? 22 A With that information, we had already, I 23 believe, at that time, started to move up towards the 24 location, because we had enough officers with us. And 25 other officers were, of course, coming into the area to
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 69 1 help kind of set up a perimeter, get eyes on. A 2 perimeter is just an area around where this may be 3 happening. 4 We moved up as a team to 22 and Kearney to 5 try to see if we could locate the person ourselves, and 6 see if we could see what they were doing, and see where 7 they were at. 8 Q And this is a TrueView image on the screen. 9 Does this show -- do you recognize this area? 10 A Yes. 11 Q As -- 12 A So where the yellow triangle is, if you see 13 the vehicle right beside the yellow triangle on the 14 right, we were right behind that area at first. 15 So you can see the police vehicles coming 16 down the street. So you see the SUV there, but if you 17 look to the left, between the people and the vehicle, 18 right there, behind that vehicle is where we were 19 staging to try to get eyes on the gentleman in the 20 parking lot. 21 So when we first drove up 21 and Hoyt, you 22 could see our police vehicles farther down the street 23 there, and that's where we were trying to get more eyes 24 on, into the lot itself. 25 Q And this will show -- we will do a whole
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 70 1 swing through here. If you could indicate, then, where 2 this subject was, generally, when you first saw him. I 3 will pull that out a little bit. 4 A So if you go farther to the left -- stop, 5 or sorry, farther to the right. My right, not your 6 right. Right in the parking lot, if you go over behind 7 the tree, there's that little -- if you stop there, he 8 was kind of up by the yellow, just a little bit to the 9 left. 10 Q In fact, let me go to that station and 11 we'll look back? 12 A So it was in that general area of that end 13 of the parking lot. 14 Q Okay. While we're waiting for that to load 15 up, it will give us the view back towards the parking 16 structure. Why don't you just describe, generally, what 17 you were able to see in terms of what this person was 18 doing. 19 A When we got to that location that I showed 20 you, that first yellow area was, we had a pair of 21 binoculars. I took those and we tried to see who was in 22 the parking lot, trying to get a better look through the 23 binoculars, because one, it's still a bit dark out. 24 There's a lot of trees and vehicles. I could see the 25 head of the person walking back and forth from east to
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 71 1 west, kind of like pacing back and forth on the north 2 side of the parking lot, the northwest area. 3 And really you could only see the shoulders 4 up, because of all the vehicles and the trees and 5 everything like that. So we could see that there was a 6 person in the parking lot. 7 Q And I assume you have one consideration of 8 safety for neighbors in the area and the hospital? 9 A The things we're thinking about here, and 10 that I am thinking about is one, it's 5:30 in the 11 morning. It's a Friday morning, people are out. We 12 have other officers that we are assigning to try and 13 stop pedestrians and traffic. 14 So we're trying to set up the perimeter, 15 which is trying to get officers down on different 16 streets, such as 23 and Lovejoy, 22 and Lovejoy, 21 and 17 Lovejoy, 21 and Kearney, kind of trying to stop the 18 traffic flow of pedestrians and cars coming in the area, 19 because we still have a lot trying to drive through. We 20 had people on bicycles cutting through the area, people 21 walking down streets. Obviously, the hospital, Good Sam 22 is kitty-corner there. There's a couple of parking lots 23 that people can pull into and walk across the street. 24 So at that time in the morning, it's not 25 like a Sunday morning when things can be a little
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 72 1 quieter. We have to consider all the pedestrian traffic 2 that is now coming in the area at 5:30 in the morning, 3 and how do we stop them from entering an area where 4 somebody possibly has a gun, and keep them safe. 5 Q And based on your training and experience, 6 with a person like this, where you don't really have an 7 understanding of what is happening, but you can see they 8 are armed with a gun, do you view that as being a 9 dangerous situation, or not a dangerous situation? 10 A It's a dangerous -- it is a dangerous 11 situation, because one, we don't know if the individual 12 is looking to harm somebody else, themselves, us. 13 Anytime somebody has a weapon and they are out in the 14 middle of a parking lot, you don't know what their true 15 intention is. And you have to kind of multi-task on 16 what all the issues are. 17 Like I said, pedestrian traffic, you don't 18 want anybody walking. You don't know what their 19 intention is with the weapon. You don't know if they 20 are trying to harm somebody else, so you are trying to 21 keep everybody clear from that area. 22 And you are trying to get more resources to 23 the scene. More resources is your getting other 24 officers from other precincts, North and East to come 25 over and help shutdown that area to any civilians or
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 73 1 citizens to keep everybody safe. 2 Q For people who may not be familiar with 3 firearms, would a handgun pose a deadly threat from the 4 distance we're looking at, across the parking lot or 5 down the block? 6 A Absolutely. Any time, you know, a bullet 7 leaves a gun, you never know where it's going to go. 8 Maybe the person has experience, maybe they don't. 9 Stray bullets can go through -- and go through windows, 10 walls. You know, there's residential area on the south 11 side of the hospital, as well. So you never know where 12 things could go wrong with someone shooting off a 13 weapon, especially in a public place like that. 14 Q What did you do in terms of trying to 15 either take this person into custody, or have some sort 16 of negotiations with him to get him to make this a safe 17 situation? 18 A When we were at 22 and Kearney we were 19 getting more information that, yes, the officer that was 20 working for me, it looked like there was a gun in his 21 right hand. We decided to make this contact team or 22 custody team, if you will, to talk to him. And I was 23 part of that team. 24 And so what we did was another sergeant, 25 Sergeant Quick, myself, and some other officers decided
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 74 1 to use one of our SUVs and a shield -- a shield is just 2 a black shield that helps us use more cover, bulletproof 3 to use for protection. And we moved our vehicle up, and 4 you could see it in the photo, 22 and Kearney, to help 5 give us more coverage. And offer us to get closer in 6 order to hopefully try to communicate with him. It's 7 over by the white van on the corner. 8 A So if you see the white van, you see an SUV 9 to the left of it. And that is the vehicle we pulled up 10 from our standing position that I pointed out earlier, 11 and we had -- I believe it was Sergeant Quick drove that 12 up, and we stayed behind that, and placed it on that 13 corner for more coverage, and trying to get us closer so 14 we could hopefully have verbal communication with the 15 gentleman that was in the parking lot. 16 And right then we're trying to think of, we 17 want to try to get him to place the gun on the ground 18 and let us help him. But first of all, we have got to 19 get into a place that we can do that safely. Once we 20 pulled up there, we were told on the radio that -- by an 21 officer that he saw us, which we were thinking that he 22 would, based on the location in the parking lot that he 23 was. 24 And he became fixated on our vehicle. When 25 you hear that, you never want to be a person that --
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 75 1 with someone with a gun who is fixated on you. So for 2 tactical reasons, and our safety, we moved behind the 3 white van and a couple moved behind the other car. So 4 he was fixated on the SUV, and we knew he had a gun. So 5 we decided to move safely to another location that had 6 more coverage, and wasn't behind the vehicle that he was 7 staring at. 8 Q By fixated, do you mean he was staring at 9 you, or your location? 10 A Yes. We were told -- I think they actually 11 used the word fixated on dispatch, but yes, he was 12 staring at our SUV. And if he was going to decide to 13 fire at us, we didn't want to be behind that vehicle, 14 and be a target for him. And that's why we moved. 15 Q At some point, then, did an officer try to 16 have a verbal conversation with this person? 17 A Yes. We had a female and a male, Officer 18 Perry, I believe, and Betsy Hornstein. Betsy Hornstein 19 is the ECIT, which is the Crisis Intervention Team 20 member. We're all trained in crisis intervention, but 21 she has a little bit more training in that. Some of our 22 officers do. 23 And we had them start trying to talk to 24 him, yell out to him, hey, we just want to help you. 25 Please put down the gun, trying to communicate with him
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 76 1 and let him know that we are there to help him, and we 2 just want everybody to be safe. 3 So they were yelling, because you had to 4 yell back and forth across the parking lot in order to 5 communicate with him. 6 Q And Officer Betsy Hornstein, you mentioned 7 is with -- to get the acronym in the transcript correct, 8 but I think you said ECIT? 9 A ECIT. 10 Q And do you know what that stands for? CIT 11 is Crisis Intervention Team -- 12 A Enhanced. So they have had additional 13 training. So some officers go through additional 14 training. It's more hours of dealing with training for 15 people in crisis. And a lot of times we do ask for them 16 on crisis calls, such as this. 17 Q And I am assuming Officer Betsy Hornstein 18 is a female police officer? 19 A Correct. And I think she's out of North 20 Precinct. So she's not out of Central. She came out to 21 help us out. 22 Q Could you hear her calling out to this 23 person? 24 A Yes. I could hear her and Officer Perry 25 calling out to him, saying, Hey, please put down the
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 77 1 gun. We just want to help you. And he would yell back 2 to us, that he was not going to put down the weapon, it 3 was not going to happen. 4 And there was some pauses in the 5 conversation, but we would tell -- I told them to keep 6 talking to him, keep him verbally engaged so we could 7 hopefully talk him into putting down the weapon that was 8 in his hand. 9 Q Given the responses that he gave, did that 10 indicate he was hearing the police officers? 11 A He could hear us, because when we told him, 12 We want you to put down the gun so we can help you, he 13 was refusing to do so. I am not going to put down the 14 gun. 15 So that was an indication that he knew what 16 we were talking about. I could hear him yelling back 17 and forth that -- something about it was going to -- 18 this was going to be it. I can't quite quote you what 19 he said, because it's been a while. But he was 20 definitely not wanting to, at that point, follow 21 anything -- instructions as far as putting down the gun, 22 or wanting us to help him, at that point. 23 Q And were you able to see, from your vantage 24 point, what he was doing with the gun? 25 A Yes. At that point, behind the van and the
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 78 1 car we could see the weapon in his hand. He was 2 pointing it to his temple, and he was pointing it into 3 the air, and to the ground. A few times he sat down and 4 then he would stand back up, but he continued to pace 5 back and forth. 6 There was a vehicle. He was yelling at us 7 about he wanted some lady out of the parking lot. 8 Turned out there was a lady in the car, and he was 9 yelling at her and yelling at us that he wanted her 10 gone. 11 She finally drove up into the area on the 12 this side of -- the north side of the hospital vehicle, 13 and the gate came up and she drove out, and headed 14 north. So she left the parking lot. 15 Q Based on your training and experience, 16 could a suicidal person also be, at the same time, 17 homicidal, meaning then they want to kill themselves, 18 but they also want to harm or kill other people? 19 A Yes. 20 Q When you heard the responses to officer 21 Betsy Hornstein that he wasn't going to put down the 22 gun, did that change anything for you in terms of your 23 thought process, and what you think is happening? 24 A It does. Because right now you realize 25 that he is unwilling to want to put down a weapon that
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 79 1 may or may not be loaded. He is refusing to follow 2 directions, which is us trying to help him and keep 3 everybody safe. 4 Obviously, having somebody with a loaded 5 weapon in a parking lot that is refusing to put it down, 6 it kind of raises things a bit, because you don't know 7 what their next intention is. Is it to harm themselves, 8 harm others, harm you? So now we're trying to figure 9 out -- we're calling for more resources to continue to 10 block streets, we're looking for better eyes onto him to 11 try to get him -- make sure that he can't leave the 12 parking lot, because we don't want other citizens 13 exposed to his firearm. 14 So there's a lot of elements that you are 15 thinking of. You are trying to make sure that you are 16 letting other officers know which way your guns are 17 pointed so they are safe. Because if you are behind the 18 van and you have guns out, and you are pointing at -- or 19 even at the low, ready, wait, at the scene, you want to 20 make sure that your other officers know which way those 21 are pointing, so they can be behind hard cover so they 22 don't get injured if something happens. So there's a 23 lot of things that you are thinking about and trying to 24 keep everybody safe. 25 Q And you mentioned additional resources that
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 80 1 were called upon. Can you share with the Grand Jury who 2 was called to the scene in terms of different 3 specialized units within the police bureau? 4 A During the entire scene? 5 Q Yes, as time moved ahead, if you would, and 6 tell us -- I realize this was a dynamic situation, but 7 over time, what were the resources that were called 8 upon? 9 A First of all, at the beginning officers are 10 called, both sergeants go to the scene. We ask for the 11 ECIT, which is the Crisis Intervention, Enhanced, and we 12 are getting resources there. We're getting more 13 officers, because people are still going by on bicycles. 14 People are still trying to walk down the street, pull 15 in. So you are trying to get as many officers there 16 from other precincts. And, of course, this is 5:30, 17 6:00 in the morning, so they have to come from North 18 Precinct, East Precinct. 19 As soon as we tried to have communications 20 with the gentleman in the parking lot, and you can tell 21 you are hitting a stalemate, he's not wanting to do 22 anything you are asking him to do to help himself, or 23 help you, or help others, that kind of raises the bar. 24 He's not working with us, so let's look at -- now we're 25 going to add even more resources.
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 81 1 So I went ahead and I paged the HNT, which 2 is our Hostage Negotiation Team, one of their members to 3 hopefully come out, and talk to him to hopefully -- 4 working with them, we can hopefully talk to him to even 5 maybe get through to him more. And they usually have a 6 lot more resources in hopefully getting him to surrender 7 his weapon without anybody getting hurt. 8 Q And these would be officers who are 9 especially trained in negotiating and dangerous 10 situations like this volatile situation? 11 A Correct. Correct. And even though they 12 are known at hostage negotiators, they have a few other 13 names, but their main purpose is to -- they go through 14 hours and hours of talking with people, and talking in 15 crisis situations. It's not just necessarily gun calls, 16 but they go on knife calls, and other volatile calls. 17 So they are a great resource, if he's not 18 wanting to communicate with us, maybe there's something 19 they can say or do to hopefully communicate with him and 20 get through to him that we want this to be resolved in a 21 peaceful manner. 22 Q And I interrupted your train of thought, 23 but in addition, then, to the Hostage Negotiation Team, 24 did you call anyone else to the scene? 25 A At that point, Sergeant Quick, I believe --
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 82 1 and I am not 100 percent sure, but he said he was going 2 to make some calls. To me, that meant he was probably 3 calling our SERT contact for coming out and seeing if 4 they wanted -- telling them what is going on. 5 We do a lot of consults, to say, here, this 6 is what we have. We have contained the scene, but we 7 might need you here, as well. 8 And so once we moved locations, we decided 9 that we wanted a better situation than we were in. I 10 mean, obviously we're having to yell back and forth 11 across the parking lot. I remember at one point he 12 yelled his name and date of birth, I believe. I know 13 his Oregon driver's license number, but it wasn't 14 correct. We moved locations to have a better hard 15 cover, and better visual on him. 16 After we did that, that's when we were 17 upstairs in the parking lot, I activated our SERT Team. 18 Q That's the Special Emergency Response Team 19 called the SWAT team in some cities. And you called 20 them because why? 21 A Because one, he's refusing to relinquish 22 his weapon; two, he's not really wanting to do what 23 we're saying. We have more people getting on scene. 24 You have an open parking lot that has potential for this 25 gentleman with the gun to go for residents, to grab
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 83 1 somebody in the parking lot, to go to the hospital. 2 Even though you are trying to contain the 3 situation, you have three exits for him to actually 4 leave, and maybe find somebody. You don't know if his 5 intention is to harm himself or others, or harm himself 6 and others. So you are in downtown, 5:30 in the 7 morning, next to a hospital in Northwest Portland. 8 And I don't know if most of you have been 9 down in that area. But it gets kind of busy with 23rd 10 just a block away, and a lot of people coming to work. 11 So we needed more resources. We needed more specialized 12 resources, because we are crossing things off as we go. 13 He's not wanting to talk to us. He's not wanting to 14 drop the gun. 15 We have intervention teams to come in to 16 continue to try to talk to him, but we need a 17 specialized team there to help with better containment 18 than we can provide. Obviously, we're doing what we 19 can, but they have expertise that I felt was necessary 20 for the call. 21 Q And going up your chain of command, at some 22 point you were in contact with one of the assistant 23 police chiefs, Robert Day? 24 A Correct. Yes. 25 Q When we were standing in the parking lot,
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 84 1 AC Day walked up as Sergeant Quick was on the phone, and 2 I was getting a call from our HNT, doing a consult, 3 letting me know they were on the way. And they were 4 asking questions about what was going on, which I just 5 described to you. Of course, I did it in just a couple 6 of sentences. And at that point, AC Day was walking up, 7 and as soon as he got there, HNT asked if I had 8 activated SERT yet. 9 I knew Sergeant Quick was on the phone, and 10 I wanted to make sure we weren't doing double duty 11 there. And I asked him if we were ready to activate 12 SERT, and AC Day said yes. So we were all on the same 13 page. It was just making sure we're ready to do that. 14 Q And eventually, did you see the SERT 15 officers arrive on the scene? 16 A I did. I saw them when I was down on 22nd 17 and Johnson at the command precinct. We moved our 18 command post down to there, so it was a safe area for 19 other officers and for SERT, and for command staff 20 coming into the location to help the situation. 21 Q And on towards about 7:00 in the morning, 22 it's my understanding that you heard a gunshot? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And when you heard that, were you now in a 25 position where you could not see --
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 85 1 A Correct. 2 Q -- the subject with the gun? 3 A Correct. So this was happening at 22 and 4 Kearney to Lovejoy. And I was now at 23 and Johnson. 5 Q And just to conclude this, you heard a 6 shot. Did you have an indication of who was doing the 7 shooting at that time? 8 A Somebody came over the radio and said he 9 had fired a round into the ground, not at us. There was 10 another shot, same thing told. And then later on, there 11 was multiple -- but it also sounded like it was echoing 12 off the buildings, so I can't tell you exactly how many 13 shots. But then they said that he was down. 14 Q And at that point of the shooting, then, is 15 it correct, that the command of the situation moved to 16 those individuals charged with the investigation of the 17 officer-involved shooting? 18 A Yes. So the situation is going on in this 19 parking lot. I am working with AC Day to move to the 20 command post at 22 and Johnson where we have members 21 from SERT, we have captains, commanders, lieutenants, 22 obviously Assistant Chief Day is there, and we're trying 23 to shut down that area for people coming in. 24 And then once the event happened and the 25 gentleman was down, we go ahead and set up the area for
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 86 1 our mobile precinct coming in, which is where the 2 detectives come in and deal with now what has happened. 3 So they need a place to talk to people, witnesses, 4 officers, those involved. So we went ahead and put them 5 on 22nd between 22nd and 23rd on Kearney, and we pulled 6 in, it looks like a big SUV, for them to start the post 7 shooting. 8 MR. REES: Thank you very much. Are there 9 any questions from the Grand Jury for the sergeant? 10 A JUROR: I have two questions. No. 1 is, 11 so if I am hearing everything correctly, he didn't 12 identify that he was intending to kill himself at any 13 time during what you heard? It was an unknown 14 situation, you weren't sure if there was a homicidal 15 intent or suicidal intent? 16 THE WITNESS: At that time his 17 communication to us was limited. Basically he's not 18 going to put down the gun, he's pointing it to his head, 19 to the ground, to the sky. Obviously, even if someone 20 shoots a bullet into the sky, it has to land somewhere. 21 So at that point we don't really know what 22 his intent is. We're just trying to diffuse the 23 situation, and have him give up the weapon so we can 24 help him. 25 A JUROR: So the second question is,
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 87 1 fundamentally, is there any different police response to 2 either situation, if it was identified as homicidal or 3 suicidal, or is it still the same kind of response? 4 THE WITNESS: It's still the same kind of 5 response. It's containment, making sure everybody is 6 safe, him, ourselves, citizens. We're going to try to 7 lock down that area, and do the same communication as we 8 were doing with him. 9 A JUROR: As well as the positioning of 10 these two officers who were the ones who fired the 11 shots? 12 THE WITNESS: Their position, I am not sure 13 where they were at, because I couldn't see. But that, 14 you would have to ask them. 15 Q BY MR. REES: And if I could follow up on 16 that last question, because I am not sure -- well, just 17 to clarify, the question was, would the response be the 18 same. I assume if it was an active shooter type 19 situation, there wouldn't be an effort to negotiate with 20 the person? 21 A Correct. Is that what you are asking? If 22 it was an active shooter situation, we're just going to 23 go right in. And we're going to stop the person from 24 shooting people. We don't wait, we don't do -- an 25 active shooter, we do not do post up and just set up a
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 88 1 perimeter. 2 We're going to grab as many officers, if 3 there's two, three, one, whoever is there, we're going 4 to get a couple of us and we're going to go in. And 5 we're going to look for the person that is shooting, and 6 make sure that person doesn't shoot anybody else and 7 harm anybody else. 8 So active shooter is definitely different 9 than somebody with a gun that hasn't started doing 10 anything yet. We definitely don't want that person to 11 exit that parking lot, and become an active shooter with 12 people walking down the street or at the hospital. 13 A JUROR: Can I ask one more question? Did 14 his two shots to the ground change him to an active 15 shooter at that point? 16 THE WITNESS: No. Because he's not -- the 17 two shots to the ground were what he -- what he was 18 doing. But an active shooter is someone that is like -- 19 that you have seen on the news, is hunting other people. 20 So an active shooter is hunting down individuals to 21 shoot as many as they can, or to harm as many people as 22 they can. 23 At this point, we still have him in the 24 parking lot, contained, trying to figure out if we can 25 get him to surrender his weapon.
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 89 1 MR. REES: Did that answer your question? 2 A JUROR: It's gotten me over the hump that 3 I had prior to the question. 4 MR. REES: Feel free to -- 5 THE WITNESS: It doesn't change the fact 6 it's loaded. As soon as you fire a gun into the ground, 7 you realize it's loaded. It's not just a plastic gun. 8 It's not just him, or this whoever it is, pretending 9 that they are not going to do anything with the gun. 10 He's now fired an actual weapon into -- 11 whether it's the ground, the air or wherever. He's 12 shown that he can use that weapon, and it's unknown how 13 he's going to use it, or she is going to use it. 14 But now that elevates your heartbeat. You 15 realize that, okay, it is escalating. Anybody who 16 starts to fire off a weapon, or start in another -- it's 17 not just as peaceful as it could have been. It's now, 18 he's shown that the gun is actually loaded and he can 19 use it to harm somebody or himself. 20 And that changes things mentally, because 21 now you don't know what they are going to do with that 22 weapon. Does that help? 23 A JUROR: I guess my fundamental question 24 is, had he identified himself with suicidal intent, 25 would there have been a different response?
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 90 1 THE WITNESS: No. We still did the same 2 response, because we don't know. Obviously, our attempt 3 is that if you are suicidal, we want to help you and 4 make you put down the gun. We were trying to do that 5 verbally, consistently, trying to let him know that we 6 are there, who we were, that we want him to put down the 7 weapon, because we want to get him help. He was 8 refusing all of that. 9 So you are still responding, you are hoping 10 that nothing goes bad. You want everything to be 11 peaceful and resolved. Unfortunately, that didn't 12 happen in this case. He didn't want our help. He kept 13 refusing it, even though we were trying to get him to 14 put down that gun so we could help him. Does that help 15 answer the question better? 16 A JUROR: It does. Yeah. 17 A JUROR: At what point did the two 18 officers that were involved work their way into the 19 parking structure and behind that retaining wall? Any 20 idea? 21 THE WITNESS: No, I can't tell you a time 22 frame. I was at 22 and Johnson when I saw Officer Daul 23 show up. And I told him where the parking structure 24 there was, and where other officers were, and where our 25 HNT was.
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 91 1 If you go down to Kearney, look to the 2 north, stay on the north side of the street and see 3 them. Once they were out of my sight, I couldn't see 4 where they were, what they were doing, or anything like 5 that. I remember seeing him and directing him in, but 6 that was it. 7 A JUROR: So to clarify, when you are at 8 that corner there, that's 22nd and Kearney? 9 THE WITNESS: Correct. 10 A JUROR: And then you move to 22nd and 11 Johnson. I am not sure where that is at. Could you 12 still see them from there? 13 THE WITNESS: No, I couldn't see them. So 14 my -- I was 23rd and Johnson. I am sorry. So I moved 15 from 22nd and turned Kearney to set up the command 16 center. So now Sergeant Quick is now with the other 17 officers on the parking structure, with the situation, 18 and I am leaving with AC Day to set up everything with 19 everybody else coming in. 20 I need to make sure there's a safe place 21 for the SERT Team to bring in their vehicles. I need to 22 make sure there's a safe team and we already have 23 medical standing by. I need to make sure that there's a 24 place our command post can all meet and discuss what is 25 going on, and all the intel coming in.
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 92 1 So I shut down 23rd and Johnson to 23rd and 2 Lovejoy. And I shut down 23rd down to 22nd on Johnson. 3 So I am taking that whole street, because I need the 4 space for everybody coming in to try to resolve what is 5 going on. 6 So that was my position at that point, and 7 now I am in charge -- I am in charge of the call. I am 8 the sergeant in charge of the scene, and my job is -- I 9 have Sergeant Quick. He's looking after the subject and 10 he's -- you know, the gentleman in the parking lot, and 11 he's dealing with the officers now. 12 Now, I need to deal with the big picture of 13 making sure everybody can get in, and get the resources, 14 and be safe getting in, safe ways in, and go from there. 15 So my location did change one block to the west and one 16 block to the south. So it's a safe area for those 17 people to come in. 18 MR. REES: Any other questions for this 19 witness? 20 (No response.) 21 MR. REES: Hearing no questions, we will 22 excuse the witness. Thank you for coming in. 23 (Lunch recess taken from 11:45 a.m. 24 to a 1:37 p.m.) 25
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 93 1 CLIFFORD NELSON, M.D., 2 produced as a witness, having been first duly sworn, 3 was examined and testified as follows: 4 5 DIRECT EXAMINATION 6 BY MR. REES: 7 Q When you are ready, Dr. Nelson, I will have 8 you state your full name and spell it for the record. 9 A Clifford Nelson, last name is N-E-L-S-O-N. 10 Q Doctor, what is your professional title? 11 A I am a deputy state medical examiner for 12 the State of Oregon, working out of the Clackamas 13 office. 14 Q And what is your educational background? 15 A Went to school at the University of 16 Portland. I graduated with a BS in biochemistry in 17 1984. Went to Oregon Health Sciences School -- 18 University School of Medicine, where I did a student 19 subfellowship in pathology during medical school, and 20 finished in 1989. 21 And then did a combined anatomic and 22 clinical pathology residency program, which I completed 23 in 1993. And then went to Atlanta, Georgia, and was an 24 associate medical examiner, and fellow in forensic 25 pathology with Fulton County Medical Examiners Office.
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 94 1 Finished there in 1994. Took my boards for 2 anatomic clinical and forensic pathology. Passed those. 3 Stayed on staff in Atlanta for about seven months, and 4 then I came to Clark County, Washington, where I was the 5 first medical examiner for Clark County, Washington. 6 I stayed there for about 18 months, until 7 they made a new job for me here in Oregon, and then I 8 came over here and I have been here since. 9 Q What is the procedure to become board 10 certified? 11 A You have to first go through a training 12 program, either in your residency, or your fellowship in 13 that specialty at a place that's approved by the 14 American -- American College of Medical Specialty 15 Boards. So for me it's the American Board of Pathology. 16 And then after you have everybody sign off 17 on that, you know, you did what you were supposed to do 18 and you learned what you were supposed to do, you sit 19 for a bunch of tests, and they charge you a whole bunch 20 of money. And if you pass that -- or pass those tests, 21 then you become board certified. 22 Q And, in general, what is it that you do as 23 a forensic pathologist on a daily or weekly basis? 24 A Our main job is to determine cause and 25 manner of death in people who die outside of a hospital
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 95 1 situation, or medical situation where they are being 2 regularly cared for by a physician. 3 Q And do you have an estimate of how many 4 death cases that you have been personally involved in 5 during the course of your work? 6 A I have done about 4,200 autopsies and 7 another 1,500 external exams. 8 Q Did you personally perform the post mortem 9 examination on the deceased Michael Gregory Johnson? 10 A I did. 11 Q And do you know what date you did that? 12 A It was on the 7th of November. 13 Q And who else was present during that 14 examination? 15 A Let's see, two criminalists, Shauna 16 McMurray and Wade Graves, Detectives Sponhaur and 17 Kammerer, and Officer Gabby Hertzler. 18 Q And we can see you are looking at your 19 chart, so did you prepare a report of your findings? 20 A I did. 21 Q In terms of the external examination of the 22 body, did you note anything unusual when looking at 23 Mr. Johnson's body? 24 A Well -- besides his gunshot wounds? 25 Q Right. One thing that I noted in your
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 96 1 report was you described blue ink on his hands and 2 wrists. What was that? 3 A It essentially was a suicide note that he 4 had written up and down his hands and arms. He's also 5 got some hesitation cut marks on his wrists, and then 6 like I mentioned, the gunshot wounds. 7 Q And just for those who don't know, when you 8 say hesitation marks, what is that? 9 A They tend to be -- a lot of times they are 10 overlapping horizontal superficial incisions on the 11 wrist. Probably because people don't realize two things 12 when they try to cut their wrists if they are trying to 13 commit suicide. One, that the skin is pretty darn tough 14 and you have to have a really sharp knife and press and 15 get pretty deep to get major vessels and, No. 2, it 16 hurts. 17 Q So when you see these marks, you are 18 thinking this is a person who made some tentative 19 efforts to slit their wrist? 20 A Correct. 21 Q In your report you also mentioned that the 22 condition of the socks that -- I think you said filthy, 23 and the feet appeared to be filthy; is that correct? 24 A Yeah. Plus he's got a lot of scratches and 25 scrapes that have got a lot of bright red bleeding
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 97 1 around them, which tends to be like if somebody is 2 trimming, or just sticks their hands into like a juniper 3 bush or -- because there's an anti-coagulant in things 4 like juniper and cedar that if you get scratched with 5 it, you will get these -- besides just the scratch, you 6 will get this surrounding bright red area, and a lot of 7 times it will swell up a little bit and have a little 8 bit of hemorrhage under the skin around it. 9 Q Did that have any meaning for you? 10 A Probably that he's running around or 11 through stuff without shoes or pants on. 12 Q In terms, then, of the autopsy on the body, 13 you already mentioned the gunshot wounds. So what did 14 you observe regarding that? 15 A 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, gunshot wounds, involving 16 his left chest, a second one to the left chest, one just 17 under his left costal margin, which is basically the 18 bottom rib cage, one of the pelvis, and one of his left 19 leg. 20 Q Did you deem more than one of those wounds 21 as being a fatal type injury? 22 A Well, the first one to the left chest, 23 since it went through his lungs, potentially, probably 24 not extremely rapidly fatal. The other one to his left 25 chest went right through his heart, so that would have
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 98 1 been rapidly fatal. 2 One below his left costal margin went 3 through his stomach duodenum, his pancreas, and through 4 the first lumbar vertebrae. So there's a good chance 5 that that would have knocked him to the ground 6 instantaneously. It would have cut his feet out from 7 under him. The pelvic wound, I mean, unless treated, 8 would have been fatal. 9 The gunshot wound to his left leg, again, 10 just because of the type of wound it is, would have been 11 fatal if untreated, but not rapidly. 12 Q And although you obviously have listed 13 these in order for your report, is it correct that you 14 can't tell in what order these wounds were sustained by 15 the deceased? 16 A That is correct. 17 Q What is meant by the terms you mentioned 18 earlier, cause of death and manner of death? 19 A Sure. Cause of death is that thing that 20 happens to somebody, either natural disease, injury, 21 poisoning, whatever, that ultimately leads to them 22 dying. The mechanism, which we didn't talk about, is 23 how that cause of death results in the person dying. 24 So say somebody is shot in the chest, goes 25 through the lung, goes through a major vessel, they
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 99 1 bleed a lot into their chest and they die. The cause of 2 death would be a gunshot wound to the chest. The 3 mechanism of death would be exsanguination or bleeding 4 to death. 5 Say another person gets shot in the chest, 6 goes through the lung, doesn't hit a major vessel but it 7 hits them in the spine and they become paralyzed. And 8 they go to the hospital, they go to rehab, and they are 9 paralyzed. And five years later they get a bed sore and 10 the bed sore becomes infected, and they become septic, 11 which is bacteria in your blood, and they die from that. 12 Mechanism of death would be sepsis. Cause of death 13 still remains a gunshot wound to the chest. 14 And in both cases, if they didn't shoot 15 themselves, which would be a suicide, it would be a -- 16 if they were shot by somebody else, it would be a 17 homicide, with the exception of something that happened 18 in this case, which is pretty unique, and those are the 19 manners. 20 Manners are either going to be natural 21 disease, accident, suicide, homicide, or there's not 22 enough information for us to figure out which category 23 it should go into, so we call it undetermined. 24 Q And then in this case, what was your 25 opinion regarding both cause and manner of death?
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 100 1 A Cause of death was pretty easy. It was 2 multiple gunshot wounds. Manner of death is a little 3 bit more difficult. I have had a -- I have dealt with a 4 lot of cases where people have been shot by law 5 enforcement. And in all but two cases I have always 6 listed these as homicides, because our definition of 7 homicide is one person dying at the hands of another 8 person. 9 There's an exception that was written to -- 10 that that was written up by two people, Peter Batten, 11 who is actually a psychiatrist down here in Salem, and 12 Dr. Joseph Davis, who is the chief medical examiner for 13 Miami Dade County. 14 And they did a long and exhaustive study on 15 this, and came to the conclusion that there are some 16 people that, for whatever reason, their intention fully 17 is to die, but they can't do it to themselves. And they 18 need to get somebody else to do it for them. And 19 probably the most common thing that we see people do 20 under those circumstances is get -- basically force the 21 police's hand to kill them. 22 Different people use different criteria 23 where they make that jump from it being a homicide to a 24 suicide. Some people will just do it based on 25 circumstances, you know, if somebody gets into a
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 101 1 situation, they are depressed, and they go out and they 2 start causing an altercation where the police are 3 involved. And the police show up, and they start 4 confronting the police, and they get shot, they will 5 call it a suicide. 6 I use a very strict criteria. I want to 7 see a letter, a note, I want a statement made to a 8 reliable witness, or I want to see something left on 9 their computer that indicates clearly that they were 10 going with the thought-out intention of getting the 11 police to kill them. 12 And like I said, I have only seen that 13 where I could meet that criteria twice, and this was one 14 of them. Because Mr. Johnson had in his possession 15 suicide notes, as well as notes written all over his 16 hands and forearms basically, you know, saying goodbye, 17 I love you. I can't do this to myself, but I am going 18 to get the police to kill me. 19 A JUROR: Did he write that? He wrote on 20 there, I am going to get the police to kill me? 21 THE WITNESS: I couldn't make out exactly 22 what was written on his arms. On his -- on the notes, 23 there's something to that effect. 24 Q BY MR. REES: And in terms of the facts 25 that were presented to you, what led you to that
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 102 1 conclusion, in addition to the notes, that this was a 2 precipitating event designed to ultimately make the 3 police kill him? 4 A Well, No. 1, I knew Mr. Johnson had been 5 depressed and suffered from bipolar depression. I knew 6 that he had recently changed his medications, which is a 7 precipitator for a lot of people to have a suicidal 8 break. I knew that on the day in question he had come 9 in, displayed a weapon, and told people at the hospital 10 to call the police. I know that when he got there, he 11 confronted them with a weapon. He then discharged the 12 weapon into the sidewalk or street, or below him. 13 And it wasn't until he shot the weapon 14 immediately over the heads of the responding officers 15 that they opened fire and had to return fire. Those 16 actions seem pretty intentional. 17 MR. REES: Any questions about that for 18 Dr. Nelson, or any other questions? 19 A JUROR: I have a question. You said that 20 he had recently changed his medication. Did you, like, 21 find any medication in his system, or -- 22 THE WITNESS: I don't have his toxicology 23 back yet. It takes us about eight weeks to get our 24 toxicology back. But what I know -- but what I do know 25 is he was on several medications, I don't know what they
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 103 1 were, when he was here in Portland. And he was being 2 treated by -- I think the mother told me a 3 Dr. Rosenbaum. 4 He then went, for some reason, back to 5 North Dakota, saw a different physician in North Dakota 6 who took him off most of his medications, but he 7 remained on lithium and Seroquel. There's also the -- I 8 think one other medication that was loose and without 9 bottles, and we're waiting to find out what that was. 10 But the toxicology will tell us what is in 11 his system. And if it was -- and then we have two 12 questions: Number one, was there anything in his system 13 that wasn't supposed to be -- three questions: Was 14 there anything in his system that wasn't supposed to be; 15 whatever he had in his system, was it at a toxic level 16 or at a level that might cause him to have problems; or 17 as far as his medications that he's been prescribed, was 18 he taking them, and did he have enough of what he needed 19 in his system. And those -- like I said, those 20 questions will all be answered by the toxicology. 21 MR. REES: Anything else? 22 (No response.) 23 MR. REES: Seeing no further questions, we 24 will excuse Dr. Nelson. Thank you. 25
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 104 1 CHRISTOPHER BURLEY, 2 produced as a witness, having been first duly sworn, 3 was examined and testified as follows: 4 THE WITNESS: I do. 5 6 DIRECT EXAMINATION 7 BY MR. REES: 8 Q Sergeant, the chair is pushed up a little 9 bit so the court reporter can hear you. 10 A All right. I will move it back. I am like 11 right in the middle. 12 Q And when you are ready, Sergeant, if you 13 could please state and spell your name. 14 A Christopher Burley, C-H-R-I-S-T-O-P-H-E-R, 15 and Burley is B-U-R-L-E-Y. 16 Q And what is your occupation? 17 A I am currently assigned to the Portland 18 Police Bureau's Behavioral Health Unit as a supervisor. 19 Q What is the Behavioral Health Unit? 20 A The Behavioral Health Unit is tasked with 21 contacting persons in the community that are having 22 contact with the police, either high frequency contact 23 with the police, contact that is believed may turn 24 violent with the police, or they -- a person may be 25 violent towards others in the community.
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 105 1 And the reason for this violence or the 2 high frequency contact is because the person is 3 perceived to have mental illness. 4 Q What is your educational background? 5 A I went to the University of Portland and 6 graduated with a bachelor's of arts in teaching, and 7 with an emphasis in mathematics. After graduating from 8 the University of Portland, I moved to Chicago, 9 Illinois, and taught at a high school in the suburbs of 10 Chicago for three years, and was a physics and math 11 teacher. 12 Q And after that, did you go into law 13 enforcement? 14 A Yeah. I decided to move back to the 15 Pacific Northwest to be closer to family, and applied to 16 the police bureau, and was hired in August of 2005. 17 Q In regards to your current assignment as a 18 sergeant in the Behavioral Health Unit, what kind of 19 special training did you receive, specifically in 20 dealing with persons who are in crisis, who are maybe 21 suffering from mental illness, and who specifically may 22 be suicidal? 23 A Yeah. So after being hired in 2005, I went 24 through the normal course of training with the basic 25 academy for the state level, and then the advanced --
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 106 1 Advanced Academy is what Portland calls it, the Portland 2 Metro Advanced Academy. Attended that. 3 And then, also, three years ago, became a 4 member of the Crisis Negotiation Team, which is a team 5 that goes out on calls when the Special Emergency 6 Reaction Team is activated. Or oftentimes people think 7 of -- that's what Portland calls our SWAT team, the SERT 8 Team, and Special Emergency Reaction Team. 9 And the Crisis Negotiation Team, in a lot 10 of other places, is called a Hostage Negotiation Team. 11 But here in Portland we're called the Crisis Negotiation 12 Team. 13 As part of that training and then some of 14 the training also that I have been able to attend as a 15 member of the Behavioral Health Unit, I have attended 16 the FBI's basic academy, or basic class on hostage 17 negotiation techniques. And then the Midwestern 18 States -- I can't remember the full title. But 19 intermediary hostage negotiation classes, as well. 20 In addition to that, I just completed, two 21 weeks ago, the police bureau's Enhanced Crisis 22 Intervention Team training, and have for the last -- for 23 my period of time at the Crisis Negotiation Team have 24 also attended the local conferences for the Western 25 States Hostage Negotiation Team, which has taken place
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 107 1 in -- a conglomeration of states in the Northwest, and 2 it includes Alaska as well. 3 So I have attended trainings there. And 4 then several other trainings that other organizations 5 put on. Some -- also received training on occasion -- 6 not only do I work with officers at the Behavioral 7 Health Unit, but we also have officers that are teamed 8 with mental health clinicians that work for Cascadia 9 Behavioral Healthcare, and on occasion the clinicians' 10 supervisors have come in and given us training. 11 Several months ago we received training on 12 trauma as it relates to people's life experiences and 13 how they may interact with people around them, to 14 include the police. 15 Q And in addition to the training you just 16 mentioned, have you had the opportunity in the field to 17 actually be involved in those kinds of contacts with 18 people who are in crisis? 19 A Yeah. From November of 2010 to, I believe 20 it was April of 2011, I was a member of -- well, at the 21 time, prior to becoming the Behavioral Health Unit it 22 was called the Mobile Crisis Unit. 23 And during that time I was teamed up with a 24 mental health clinician, and we went out into the 25 community and attempted to work with persons that had
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 108 1 mental illness, that were having frequent contact with 2 the police, or it was perceived that they were going to 3 have a violent encounter with the police, or a violent 4 encounter with a community member, and link those 5 persons with services. 6 So for that six-month period, that was my 7 focus. That's what I did every day when I came in to 8 work was working with persons, hopefully most of the 9 time before they got into the crisis. But some of the 10 time, yes, when they were in crisis and in need of -- 11 needing to be placed on a police officer's hold, or a 12 director's hold, and be taken to the hospital so that 13 they could receive the appropriate healthcare for their 14 mental illness. 15 MR. REES: Before we move into the incident 16 on November 6th of this year, are there any questions 17 from the Grand Jury about Sergeant Burley's training or 18 any of those aspects? 19 THE WITNESS: I guess I should also note, 20 for the Crisis Negotiation Team as well, we do a monthly 21 training as a team. And then every year we also do a 22 training that is three days long in September, October, 23 where we do scenario-based skills training where we work 24 with SERT, and spend three to four days training 25 together, and putting into scenario practice what we
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 109 1 trained throughout the year for. 2 Q BY MR. REES: Okay. Well, on November 6th, 3 then, the Friday that this occurred, were you on duty 4 when this situation began, or was this something where 5 you received a special page to come in to work? 6 A I had received a page. I was on my way 7 into work. It was early in the morning. I was coming 8 into work a little early, as I was planning on going up 9 to OHSU to participate in a presentation between -- it's 10 my understanding new psychiatric doctors, it was going 11 to be a seminar that the hospital was putting on for 12 them, that they were interested in what the Portland 13 Police Bureau's Behavioral Health Unit was doing. So we 14 were going to go up and give a presentation. 15 So I was coming into work early, and I 16 received a page. And on the way in I had heard the 17 radio traffic. So I was in a police car, or a city car 18 that had a police radio in it and could hear that there 19 was an event that was occurring near Good Samaritan 20 Hospital. 21 Q So what did you do when you received the 22 page? 23 A I proceeded towards Good Samaritan 24 Hospital. I believe that they had us arrive at 23 and 25 Kearney.
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 110 1 Q What did you do when you arrived there? 2 A When I arrived at 23 and Kearney, I got out 3 of the car, put my ballistics vest on, contacted one of 4 the supervisors that was on scene, asked her what she 5 needed me to do, and she asked me to go be with the 6 officers and supervisor that were trying to communicate 7 with the gentleman that was identified as Michael 8 Johnson. 9 Q And behind you on the screen is the LEICA 10 TrueView image that was made at the scene following the 11 shooting. And let me just try to move through this for 12 a moment, and stop me if we can see the area where 13 eventually you went to. 14 A So I think we were to the right of the 15 triangle, over right around in there, I believe. Right 16 over in that area. 17 Q In this second sort of opening in the 18 parking structure? 19 A Yeah, I believe so. I am not -- on the day 20 that I was there, all of my perspective was from inside 21 the garage to the outside. 22 Q So I have switched views, so this is the 23 perspective from the -- I guess it's really the second 24 story of the building, in a sense, and it's above the 25 street level?
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 111 1 A Yeah, but I think right in that second 2 archway area, right next to that pillar, but up against 3 the wall. 4 Q And so when you arrived, I believe some 5 patrol officers -- that Betsy Hornstein was an officer 6 mentioned, were already trying to engage Mr. Johnson in 7 some sort of conversation; is that right? 8 A Yeah. Yeah. So my out -- our training is 9 when we come in, even though we're on the Crisis 10 Negotiation Team, if somebody has got a good rapport and 11 started to build up some type of trust with the person 12 that they are trying to communicate with that we're 13 trying to get help to, then we're going to continue to 14 have that officer dialogue with the person. And we will 15 be alongside that person, try and give them kind of 16 ideas of other things to say. 17 So that's what initially I started to do 18 with Officer Perry was knelt down alongside him and kind 19 of listened to what he was going to say. And then give 20 him encouragement or ideas of other things to say. 21 Q And so I mentioned Betsy Hornstein, who was 22 the female officer. The other officer was Officer 23 Perry. And so were you able to observe interaction 24 between Officer Perry and Mr. Johnson? 25 A Yeah. So when I got there I encouraged --
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 112 1 as I recall, when I got there, after talking with 2 Sergeant Quick, I went up. There wasn't any talking 3 going on. I think that the officers had been there for 4 a little bit. They tried to talk with Mr. Johnson. 5 And it's a difficult position to be in to 6 try and talk with someone, especially somebody that you 7 are trying to dialogue with, and they are not responding 8 back to you. You are not sure, you know, if what you 9 are saying, is it clicking with them, or am I saying the 10 right things. Am I not saying the right things? 11 And this is the third time I have said the 12 same thing, is I am -- I know I am being redundant, so 13 it can be difficult. Especially when you have not had 14 practice in doing that. And so I got there and the 15 officers were watching Mr. Johnson. They provided me 16 some information that he initially had been 17 communicating with them, but the communication didn't 18 sound like it was great. 19 At one point they had gotten what they 20 thought was his name and his driver's license number, 21 and they had attempted to put that driver's license 22 number into the -- had the dispatcher put that into the 23 computer system, but the driver's license number didn't 24 come back to anything. 25 So I encouraged Officer Perry to continue
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 113 1 to try and talk with Mr. Johnson, and Officer Perry was 2 talking with him, or -- saying things to him, trying to 3 encourage him to put the gun down, to communicate with 4 us. And there was no -- we weren't getting any response 5 from Mr. Johnson. 6 Mr. Johnson was walking around the parking 7 lot, because at this time it was dawn. It was kind of 8 that point of the morning where it's still difficult to 9 see outside. There was some street lamps, but it was 10 a -- fairly dark. You could make out Mr. Johnson. You 11 could make out that he had a gun, but it wasn't -- 12 things weren't as sharp as they would be during the 13 daylight hours. 14 And I kept on talking with Officer Perry, 15 and trying to give him additional ideas of things to 16 say. It was apparent to me that Officer Perry was 17 trying really hard to engage Mr. Johnson. But 18 Mr. Johnson was not engaging in him, and so I felt that 19 since I had additional training, that I would try and 20 dialogue with Mr. Johnson. 21 I began to -- I introduced myself to 22 Mr. Johnson, told him who I was. And the main thing 23 that we want to do as negotiators, or as a person that 24 is there to try and help someone is try and build a 25 rapport so that a person understands that we are there,
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 114 1 because we see -- we perceive that they need help. 2 And that's what I wanted to get across to 3 Mr. Johnson is that we were concerned for his safety, 4 and for the community's safety, and for the officers' 5 safety. 6 But for the purposes of talking with 7 Mr. Johnson, a lot of it has to be that we're concerned 8 about him, and that is why we're there. We are there 9 for him today. And one of the things we talk about as a 10 negotiator is that we try and stay in the muck. And by 11 the muck, we mean what is it that has got us to the 12 hospital today, why -- what is going on in your life 13 that you have come to the hospital with a gun? 14 Obviously, you are feeling that stuff is 15 not going right. Can we talk about that, or can we help 16 facilitate getting you somewhere so that somebody -- so 17 you can share with somebody the difficult times you are 18 going through right now. 19 And so initially, what I did was I 20 introduced myself. I tried to get a response from 21 Mr. Johnson as far as making sure that he could hear me, 22 and acknowledge me. I couldn't get an acknowledgment 23 from him. One of the difficulties is that we're in the 24 city, we're by a big hospital, we have the front of that 25 big building, so some noise is bouncing off of it.
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 115 1 You have motors from different things that 2 are running at the hospital, so there's a little bit of 3 a hum that you have in any city setting. And you have 4 some car noises that are coming around. So it can be 5 difficult to hear, but it was my -- it's always our 6 intention that we need to be able to project our voice, 7 but we don't want to do it so that it's so loud that 8 it's uncomfortable for the person that we're trying to 9 communicate with. 10 So I made sure I was projecting my voice, 11 but I also try and do it in a tone and inflection that 12 let's him know that, yeah, I might be here with the 13 police, but I am not -- I don't want to come across as 14 though I am the -- maybe the traditionally perceived 15 police officer. I am there. I honestly want to help 16 you. I want to get you into the hospital. 17 Which is something we talked about later on 18 and mentioned to Mr. Johnson, that if -- one point we 19 said, you haven't committed any crimes. We want to get 20 you into the hospital. We are right here at the 21 hospital, we can get you in here if that's what you 22 would like. 23 Shortly after talking to Mr. Johnson -- and 24 when I first got up to Officer Perry and Officer 25 Hornstein, I noticed that while it was not bright
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 116 1 outside and it was difficult to see certain things, that 2 he did have a gun in his hand. It looked like a chrome 3 revolver with a black handle. 4 And the officers told me that he had either 5 said it was a .38 or a .380. And I am not extremely 6 knowledgeable of guns, but I don't -- I know that a .38 7 comes in a revolver, but I am not aware of any revolvers 8 that are .380s. So I thought it was likely a .38 9 caliber revolver. They had said they had gotten that 10 information from Mr. Johnson, and that he had told them 11 there was five rounds in the gun. 12 Q He had it in his hand. I continued to try 13 and talk to him. And at one point he went and put his 14 hands over his ears, and while still holding onto the 15 gun, not pointing the gun at his head but bringing his 16 hands up so that he was plugging his ears. 17 And during this time, I am waiting for more 18 Crisis Negotiation Team members and officers from the 19 special emergency -- Special Emergency Reaction Team to 20 arrive. But I am broadcasting updates, I am letting 21 them know what I am observing so that they know when 22 they come into the location what they can expect. What 23 is Mr. Johnson doing? Is he -- as I am trying to talk 24 with him. 25 And so as I continue to talk with him, I
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 117 1 broadcast that he's covering his ears. So our -- that 2 goes on for a little while, and our CNT sergeant, 3 Sergeant Troy King, asks if we should go back to having 4 patrol talking with him. Is he covering his ears 5 because he doesn't like the sound of my voice. 6 I think it's always important that we're 7 flexible. When I initially got there the officer had 8 been communicating with him, it had worked. As time had 9 gone on it appeared as though Mr. Johnson was no longer 10 communicating with us. So we transitioned, and I tried 11 to talk with him. I talked to him for a little while, 12 and after talking with him for a little while, he covers 13 up his ears. 14 So we try and ask Officer Hornstein, 15 because one of the things I had done after Officer Perry 16 had stopped talking with him was I wanted -- part of the 17 rapport building was we believed his name was 18 Mr. Johnson, but we weren't 100 percent sure of that. 19 And we knew that he kept on going back to a 20 green Honda that was in the parking lot. And one of the 21 things we want to do is see if we can get some 22 information about the person we're talking to. Are we 23 actually talking to Mr. Johnson, or did we mishear and 24 it's somebody else's name. 25 So what I asked Officer Perry to do was to
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 118 1 return to the car I had arrived in, because I had 2 binoculars in the trunk. And I wanted to get those 3 binoculars, so we could get the license plate off of the 4 green Honda, thinking maybe that's his car. 5 And if we can get the registration 6 information, maybe that will tell us who this man is. 7 Maybe there's somebody else on the registration with 8 Mr. Johnson, maybe his wife, maybe a kid or something, 9 and we can get ahold of them and try and get some 10 information about what is going on, because we're not 11 getting any information from Mr. Johnson. 12 So I asked Officer Perry to go back and get 13 the binoculars so we could start on that process. 14 Officer Hornstein tries to communicate with Mr. Johnson, 15 and has pretty much the same effect I have. He's not 16 talking with us, wanders around the parking lot, staying 17 between Lovejoy and Kearney, between 22nd and then mid 18 block, or halfway through there's kind of a fence in the 19 middle of that parking lot. And that's where the green 20 Honda was kind of parked. 21 Q And you are referring to this parking lot 22 that we're looking at right here, right? 23 A Yeah. 24 Q So just to move ahead a bit to this point, 25 you tried communicating, Officer Betsy Hornstein,
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 119 1 Officer Perry, you are not getting, it sounds like, a 2 lot of response from Mr. Johnson? 3 A No, we're not. 4 Q And let me ask you this, just -- in a 5 situation like this, would a psychologist or clinician 6 ever approach a person like this who is armed with a 7 handgun, and just walk up to them and have a 8 conversation? 9 A So as a supervisor for the Behavioral 10 Health Unit and knowing how the clinicians that work for 11 the Behavioral Health Unit operate, and the 12 clinicians that work for the Behavioral Health Unit are 13 part of Cascadia Behavioral Healthcare Project Respond 14 Program, which is a group of clinicians that respond 15 throughout the city to contact persons who are in mental 16 crisis, assess where they are at, and decide what is the 17 next best step. 18 The next best step is to come back and talk 19 with the person later, and do a check-in. Or is the 20 person in crisis, and they fit the eminent danger to 21 self or others, so they need to go to the hospital right 22 away? 23 And whenever clinicians from Project 24 Respond are responding to someone that is in a mental 25 health crisis, whether it be they are requested to come
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 120 1 to the scene by a police officer, or the Multnomah 2 County Crisis Line has contacted them, or Lines For Life 3 has contacted them, if the person is reporting suicidal 4 thoughts and has a weapon, the Project Respond 5 clinicians will bring an officer with them. 6 When they get to the scene, they will not 7 approach the person. They rely on the police to ensure 8 that the scene is safe before they go up and approach 9 someone. So I guess the short answer, no, a clinician 10 would not approach this person being armed with a 11 weapon. 12 Q And during this contact, and I mean 13 throughout the contact to its termination, did you have 14 an apprehension or fear for your personal safety? 15 A Most definitely. Yeah, definitely at the 16 end. But even as I am trying to talk with Mr. Johnson, 17 as we go through and he does start to move his mouth, 18 and he's got his ears covered up, what started to go 19 through my mind is, is Mr. Johnson responding to 20 internal stimulus? Is there maybe some voices that are 21 going on inside his head that is making it difficult for 22 him to understand what I'm saying? Is my voice, and the 23 potential voices that are going on, or just the thought 24 that he's going through -- stressful for him right now? 25 So we tried several different techniques
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 121 1 where I, for a period of time, I just stopped talking 2 with him. Just saw, okay, what do we do if we just let 3 him be, and just give him some time to decompress. 4 And then we also -- and that didn't seem 5 to -- he brought his hands down from his ears, but still 6 just kept on walking around. I could see his mouth 7 moving, but couldn't make out what he was saying. 8 So one of the other things we learn in 9 training to try and talk with someone who is in mental 10 health crisis, is to have very short -- short and direct 11 questions. So asking Mr. Johnson, can you hear me, so 12 yes and no. And then changed it to, if you can hear me, 13 shake your head up and down. And I wouldn't get a 14 response from him. 15 And as I am doing this, and we're trying to 16 figure out what is the best way to talk with 17 Mr. Johnson, I am hearing around me -- I am hearing 18 officers. I know that there are officers who have tried 19 to stop traffic. I know that we're near a hospital, and 20 we're starting to get close to when everybody is going 21 to wake up. And I can hear officers telling people, 22 stop, don't go down there, don't go down there. 23 And when I first arrived, I noticed, for 24 example, up to the north at 22 and Lovejoy there was a 25 police car that was parked up there. And I saw two
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 122 1 police officers that were behind the police car. So 2 they were at a safe location, they were behind a police 3 car. Mr. Johnson, if he were to shoot that direction, 4 they had the police car that would protect them from 5 fire. 6 But what I was noticing was that the 7 officers were having to stop people from going down 22nd 8 Avenue. And actually, I think at one point, a car did 9 end up traveling down 22nd Avenue. They tried to block 10 it off, but a car came down. 11 So one of the things I was frightened of, 12 not only for myself and the officers that were on that 13 parking garage was, I am trying to communicate with 14 someone that is not telling me what is happening. I 15 still don't know for sure -- I have not really been able 16 to engage him. Obviously, he's hearing me because at 17 times when I start talking, he will cover his ears up. 18 But what happens if the officers trying to 19 stop -- they are either unable to stop somebody from 20 going down the street, or periodically they have to go 21 out from their cover because they are telling people, 22 no, you can't go down there, because we have a dangerous 23 situation. And actively having to convince people, no, 24 it's closed off. You can't go down there. And 25 realizing that the officers are having to risk and
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 123 1 expose themselves. They are having to leave cover to do 2 that. 3 It was frightening, for me, to know that 4 the systems of -- the situation is evolving. And that 5 community members, not knowingly, but inadvertently are 6 putting themselves at risk, and putting officers at 7 risk, and putting Mr. Johnson's life at risk by adding 8 additional stimulus which is potentially making this 9 even more difficult. 10 Q And so at some point we understand that 11 Mr. Johnson fired his handgun once, and then a second. 12 Is that something that you saw? 13 A Yes. So as I was talking with him, I seen 14 his mouth move, and I thought that he may be saying 15 something. I couldn't hear anything he was saying. 16 Sergeant Warren had arrived on scene, and he's part of 17 the Crisis Negotiation Team. 18 We talked about getting -- we have a device 19 that -- I guess it would be similar to what you would 20 see like on the sidelines of a football game. But it's 21 kind of a cone that can pick up noise a little better. 22 So we could be farther away from him and maybe pick up 23 what it was he had to say, just trying to get some more 24 information. Trying -- we talked about getting a cell 25 phone to him, because the officers that arrived, they
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 124 1 talked about using a cell phone. But he wouldn't tell 2 them that he had a cell phone. They couldn't get any 3 information that he had a cell phone. 4 So we start talking about this stuff. He, 5 at one point, starts screaming out something to the 6 effect of, I am sorry. I am sorry. I love you. I am 7 sorry, as he's looking up into the hospital. 8 So then I think to myself, we need to find 9 out, if we haven't done so already, does he have a loved 10 one in the hospital, or has he been in the hospital. 11 And for a period of time he sits down, after yelling 12 that out. And he's sitting on a curb, and then he 13 stands up. And as he stands up, he kind of clumsily 14 stands up, but he brings the gun up. And it kind of 15 sweeps like right across me and other officers, and then 16 he starts to walk away from us. And as he's walking 17 away, he fires one round into the ground. 18 And I can't remember if the gun was in his 19 right or left hand. But I saw the muzzle flash, heard 20 the gun go off, saw that it went into the dirt. Went 21 ahead and got down below the concrete wall, and then 22 broadcast on the radio, because I wanted everybody to 23 know that, yes, indeed, a shot had been fired. But this 24 is who fired the gun, and this is the direction the gun 25 had gone. So I broadcast that over the air.
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 125 1 And then we, again, attempted to talk with 2 Mr. Johnson some more. He continued to hold the gun in 3 his hand. He turned around back towards us, some time 4 elapsed, and then he shot the gun into the ground again. 5 Q And were you aware, during this time -- 6 because I assume you were -- that there were other 7 officers to your left and to your right that were 8 essentially protecting you with their weapons? 9 A Yeah. Officer Chad Daul had come over, and 10 he's part of the SERT Team. He had come over right next 11 to me. And he was in his SERT uniform. And then 12 Officer Sharp, who is on the Crisis Negotiation Team, 13 which he was coaching -- he was helping me with ideas, 14 like I had initially done with Officer Perry, was over 15 to my left. And then there was additional officers that 16 were in the garage with me, but my focus was -- I am 17 trying to talk with Mr. Johnson. So that's where most 18 of my attention was going to, was to Mr. Johnson. 19 Q And that's your role is to attempt this 20 conversation or negotiation with Mr. Johnson, but you 21 had an awareness that there were other officers present 22 that had the capability of using deadly force in the 23 situation; is that correct? 24 A Yeah, that is. 25 Q And in your mind, was that something that
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 126 1 seemed like a reasonable application under the 2 circumstances? 3 A Yeah, most definitely. I had the concern 4 of the officers that I knew that were to our north. 5 What happens if Mr. Johnson decides to go to the north, 6 up where those officers are? They don't have the 7 equipment and the skill set that the SERT officers have. 8 I also knew that we had a hospital that we had been told 9 had gone into lockdown, but I also know that Good 10 Samaritan Hospital, it's a large facility. 11 So is there a possibility that if he 12 decided -- he was the one, really, that was deciding 13 that he was going to stay in that parking lot. It's 14 difficult for us to be able to stop somebody that has a 15 gun, if he would have decided to, okay, I am going to go 16 over and get into the hospital. That creates a really 17 scary situation, because we have a lot of nurses, 18 doctors, sick people that are in the hospital. What are 19 his intentions now for going into the hospital, and how 20 are we going to stop him. 21 Q So what happened then after the second time 22 Mr. Johnson fired a shot at the ground? 23 A So he fired the second shot. Some more 24 time elapsed. During that time, we again tried, well, 25 let's try and not -- let's try and do the -- give him a
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 127 1 little bit of time, see if we can give him some time to 2 quiet down. 3 I asked Officer Daul, the SERT officer that 4 was next to me, can you see his mouth moving? And 5 Officer Daul is like, -- he couldn't really tell. And 6 then Officer Daul said he might be saying something, so 7 at that point I tried to engage Mr. Johnson again. 8 And he had the gun in his hand, and I can't 9 remember if he raised the gun up or he brought the gun 10 down. But he brought the gun at the same level as the 11 garage that we were at, and held it out. And it looked 12 as though it was pointed just to the south of where I 13 was at, but at an angle that would go into the parking 14 level we were at. Fired the gun. 15 At that point I felt that I was in extreme 16 danger, because I was in the parking garage, my head was 17 exposed, if he wanted to continue to come around and 18 move his gun pointed further to the north, then it would 19 be pointed potentially directly at me, Officer Daul or 20 Detective Sharp. 21 I went down underneath the concrete wall 22 that was showing up there earlier, and I don't know if 23 there was another shot from Mr. Johnson or not. But I 24 heard several shots from Officer Daul -- what I 25 perceived as Officer Daul's firearm. I stayed behind
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 128 1 the wall until -- down below the wall until I was 2 informed that it was safe for us to move back. 3 Q You said you didn't believe Mr. Johnson was 4 pointing the gun at you, but it was slightly away from 5 you. 6 Did you believe that other people would 7 have been in the line of fire of Mr. Johnson? 8 A Yes. If there was anybody -- and like I 9 said, I was just focused on the three of us right there, 10 Officer Daul, myself, and Detective Sharp. I knew that 11 Detective Warren and Sergeant Quick were behind the 12 pillar there. 13 But any officers that are toward the bottom 14 of the screen there, it appeared if there were officers 15 there, he would have been pointing it right at them. 16 And my perception was that he had the revolver aimed 17 right at anybody that would be on that floor of the 18 garage. Does that make sense? 19 Q Given your training and experience, were 20 you surprised that at that time, under the 21 circumstances, that other officers did use deadly force? 22 A I was not surprised. I also know that from 23 training -- the training and some of the seminars that I 24 have gone to, that there's an idea that a suicidal 25 person doesn't necessarily mean that they are a
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 129 1 homicidal person. But there is a -- some of the 2 training that I have gone to recently has talked about 3 how sometimes somebody that is suicidal may become 4 homicidal in order to cause others to harm them. 5 And that's what I felt had happened. And I 6 felt that Officer Daul's -- hearing Officer Daul's gun 7 go off was definitely in protection of my life and 8 Officer Sharp's life. Because like I said, if he would 9 have brought the gun farther to the north, it would have 10 theoretically -- he would have eventually come right 11 across where the three of us were at. 12 MR. REES: Any questions for Sergeant 13 Burley? 14 A JUROR: How long do you estimate this 15 whole process took place? How long were you trying to 16 contact him, trying to get him to respond, any idea? 17 THE WITNESS: You know what, it would be on 18 the computer printouts. Do we have that? 19 Q BY MR. REES: We do. 20 A May I see? 21 A JUROR: Just give us an estimate. 22 THE WITNESS: What's difficult, in a 23 stressful situation like this, time goes fast or super 24 slow. And obviously, then at the end, after Mr. Johnson 25 has fired several rounds, the time -- I want to say
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 130 1 about an hour, but I would like to, I guess, since we 2 have the ability to be accurate, I would like to -- 3 Q BY MR. REES: So -- 4 A JUROR: So while he's looking that up, 5 you are up against the wall, squatted down, with just 6 your head poking up; is that right. 7 THE WITNESS: Yes -- 8 Q BY MR. REES: And, Sergeant, if you want to 9 go up to the screen and use the mouse to move the image 10 to point that out, feel free. 11 A So we were like right around in here, I 12 believe, right around in there. And, yeah, I was 13 kneeling, so I was on my knees with my chest up against 14 that concrete wall. That supplied a good level -- that 15 concrete supplied a good level of cover that -- I felt 16 the bullet wouldn't be able to penetrate the concrete 17 wall, but my head was still exposed. And there was no 18 way around not having my head exposed, because if I were 19 to try and talk behind the wall, it's going to bounce 20 back into the garage. 21 And for a portion of that, too, I am trying 22 to update arriving officers as to what is happening, and 23 what is the behavior of Mr. Johnson. So I guess I say 24 that, because I need to be able to see what his 25 movements are. And then part of the communication
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 131 1 component, too, it's beneficial to be able to see the 2 person. 3 Q So I handed you all the printouts. This is 4 probably more than you need, but take the time you need 5 to, if you want to identify when you arrived, and the 6 time frame? 7 A JUROR: Just an estimate. I was just 8 curious. 9 THE WITNESS: So looks like the call came 10 out at 6:18. 11 Q BY MR. REES: When you say the call, 12 because we understand the 911 call was originally made 13 at 5:38 -- 14 A So I think the initial -- let me go through 15 this. (Reading document.) So this has got stuff all 16 over the place. 17 A JUROR: He said about an hour. That's 18 pretty close. 19 THE WITNESS: I -- so see, I am not even -- 20 my unit number should be showing up in here, and I am 21 not seeing it. But I am noticing one of the things that 22 happened was that when I initially was sent, when the 23 page came out, the staging location was going to be 22 24 and Kearney. 25 And I got there, and I said, I think we
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 132 1 should move the staging location to 22 and Johnson, and 2 so they did that. And I see at 6:45 the command post is 3 at 23 and Johnson, but I don't know if that means the 4 staging location was changed there or not. 5 MR. REES: If you are satisfied with the 6 general answer? 7 A JUROR: I am satisfied within a general 8 estimate. 9 Q BY MR. REES: And your general answer is 10 you think you were on scene for about an hour? 11 A I think so. But like I said, it's a 12 situation that nobody -- no officer wants to be in, so 13 time kind of has a tendency, like you said, to speed up 14 or to slow down. So I definitely would be happy to 15 review that and come back and answer, I guess. 16 A JUROR: No, that's fine. 17 MR. REES: Any other questions for Sergeant 18 Burley? 19 Thank you very much, Officer. We 20 appreciate it. 21 22 RUSSELL CORNO, 23 produced as a witness, having been first duly sworn, 24 was examined and testified as follows: 25 THE WITNESS: I do.
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 133 1 DIRECT EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. REES: 3 Q Thank you, Officer. When you are ready, if 4 you could please for the record state your name and 5 spell your first and last name. 6 A Russell James Corno, R-U-S-S-E-L-L, James, 7 J-A-M-E-S, and then Corno, C-O-R-N-O. 8 Q What is your occupation? 9 A Police officer with the city of Portland. 10 Q How long have you been a police officer? 11 A 22-plus years. 12 Q And do you have a particular assignment at 13 present? 14 A Yes. I am currently assigned to the 15 Tactical Operations Division, and I am assigned to both 16 the Gang Enforcement Team and the Special Emergency 17 Reaction Team. 18 Q And it looks as if you have, or currently 19 do also act in various training capacities, if I 20 understood that correct, or not? I mean, do you train 21 other officers? 22 A Yes. I am certified for the bureau in a 23 bunch of different disciplines; handgun, rifle, patrol 24 tactics, less lethal impact munitions. I have been 25 involved with training my entire career with the police
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 134 1 bureau, and developing different programs for patrol 2 officers. 3 Q And over the years that you have been a 4 police officer, have some of those tactics and training 5 methods evolved over time in response to what law 6 enforcement learns over time about the appropriate way 7 to respond to certain types of situations? 8 A Yeah. We constantly review everything that 9 we do, and debrief, and reevaluate how we do things to 10 see if there's ways we can improve, and be more 11 efficient, and better at what we do. 12 Q Let me direct your attention, then, to this 13 incident that the Grand Jury is reviewing, which 14 occurred on November 6, 2015. 15 Was that a regular workday for you? 16 A Yes. I currently work day shift for me, 17 which is 7:00 a.m. to 5:00, and I work Tuesday through 18 Friday. We work four 10-hour shifts, so I have 19 Saturday, Sunday, Monday off. 20 Q And when did you first become aware of this 21 situation in Northwest Portland? 22 A I was up, ready to go to work about a 23 quarter to 6:00, and we have a notification system that 24 is kind of two-stage. There are two sergeants that run 25 our team, and then there are assistant leaders, of which
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 135 1 I am one. 2 And we are on a notification page if a 3 patrol officer, patrol sergeant has a question about a 4 specific incident and needs advice, they will page us, 5 and one of us will answer and call them, and give them 6 advice, and see what we can do to assist them. 7 I saw that page come out, probably around 8 6:10 a.m., so I knew something was going on. And it 9 lists what precinct it's occurring at. But I wasn't 10 going to respond to that text message, because I knew 11 the supervisors were in town, and that they would go 12 ahead and do that. 13 But then when I got -- I have a take-home 14 police vehicle with my equipment in it, and when I got 15 into that vehicle, I turned my radio on, and started to 16 monitor the events that were occurring at Central 17 Precinct on my way to work. 18 Q And at that time, did you respond to that 19 area in Northwest Portland near Good Sam Hospital? 20 A Yeah, it was pretty evident, listening to 21 the dialogue that was going on, that officers were 22 confronting a pretty serious situation. And so I have 23 the freedom to direct myself. I don't have to go 24 straight to my office. 25 So I started driving with normal traffic,
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 136 1 not lights and sirens, monitoring the call and heading 2 downtown, which is the way I go to work anyways. I work 3 over in Northeast Portland in the North Precinct. 4 Q And I am going to ask you in a minute about 5 some of the information you had when this was happening. 6 But let me first, so we're all looking at 7 the same thing, does this image show the area where you 8 eventually ended up -- 9 A Yes, it does. 10 Q -- in the parking structure. And let me 11 just try to rotate this a little bit here. 12 And so we have an understanding that the 13 other involved officer was Chad Daul, and it was your 14 understanding that he was standing in this location, or 15 was that your location? 16 A That's my location. 17 Q So this is actually looking to the, I 18 believe it would be the south, towards downtown 19 Portland, essentially? 20 A Uh-huh. That would be the intersection, I 21 believe, of 22nd and Kearney. 22 Q So that's where you eventually took a 23 position? 24 A Yeah. 25 Q So prior to getting into that position,
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 137 1 maybe you can just give us a summary of what your 2 understanding of the situation was, and how you ended up 3 in that location. 4 A Okay. Like I said, I was driving my 5 vehicle. I live down south of the city, so it takes me 6 about 20 minutes to get into work. And I was listening 7 to the call, and I was aware that they were in the area 8 of Good Samaritan Hospital. I had heard officers say 9 that the subject was armed with a gun. And actually, at 10 some point in time, the update was that he was armed 11 with, they said, a .380 or .38 caliber handgun, and that 12 they had seen him with it, that he was walking around in 13 a parking lot, is the way they were describing it. 14 So I am trying to start putting together a 15 mental picture where this is at, and what we can do to 16 assist when we get there. While I was en route, like I 17 said, I probably left shortly after the initial text 18 message. Within like ten minutes after that, a 19 notification for everybody to respond to that scene came 20 out, which we call a full team activation. 21 So then I did activate my emergency lights 22 and sirens, and drove to the scene, and continued to the 23 scene, and continued listening to the Central Precinct 24 net. And then we also have our own radio net that we 25 will monitor as well, so we can coordinate additional
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 138 1 responding equipment, and additional information can be 2 shared among officers, and not interrupt what is 3 occurring on the precinct net. 4 So while I was en route, I heard it was a 5 male subject. I heard talk of possible suicide, suicide 6 by cop, were the terms that were being used. And I 7 can't remember exact words, because I was listening to 8 two different nets. 9 But you are trying to paint a word picture 10 where this is occurring, and how you can make things 11 better when you get there. And the first thing I notice 12 is I know that area. My kids were born at Good Sam, and 13 I know it's highly populated, and it's a mixture of 14 commercial and residential. And at Friday at 7:00 15 people are going to be showing up for work, and it would 16 be a very difficult environment for something like this 17 to be occurring in. 18 So I continued to monitor and drive there. 19 I arrived shortly before 7:00. We had a meet location 20 up at 23rd and Kearney. As I was arriving, I could hear 21 on our net that there were crisis negotiators on scene, 22 one who I knew very well, Chris Burley. I have worked 23 with Chris, both as a member of the team where he 24 provides the information for the crisis negotiations 25 side, and I have also worked with him as an officer in
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 139 1 gang enforcement. I have a lot of respect for him, and 2 his ability, and his knowledge. 3 And Chris was putting out information about 4 what he was seeing, as well, about the subject being in 5 the parking lot, and being with a handgun. So that 6 added a whole level of credibility for me on the 7 incident as I was arriving, that it was coming from 8 Chris. 9 Like I said, I parked my vehicle at 23rd 10 and Kearney, which is about a block and a half away, one 11 block to the west, and one block south. And we had some 12 command structure that was starting to arrive there. 13 When we get sent to one of these events, we 14 have an overall incident commander. And that day it was 15 Mike Marshman, Captain Mike Marshman. And Mike Marshman 16 was on scene, and he was standing with my team 17 lieutenant, who was Charlie Fender. He was on scene. 18 And then the only other team member that was there prior 19 to my arrival was Chad Daul. And Chad was geared up and 20 was walking over to meet command. 21 Q And by team member, you mean member of the 22 SERT Team or tactical team? 23 A Yeah. Chad and I worked together for over 24 20 years, and so he also works day shift. So he was on 25 his way in, as well. And he was walking over to meet
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 140 1 with command. 2 I notified my direct supervisor, Sergeant 3 Forsythe, over the air that I was going to go meet with 4 the command, and that I wanted to go down and get a look 5 at the situation. My role typically is I will -- our 6 sergeants manage the overall incident, and I will go 7 down and try to come up with some kind of a plan, and to 8 put in place how we're going to put out resources, and 9 work through the chain of command to get that done. 10 So I went over and I met with the 11 lieutenant, and met with the captain, and said, Hey, 12 Chad and I would like to go down and meet with Chris, 13 and see where this is at, so we can start figuring out 14 how we can get caught up with it, and try to gain some 15 control. 16 It's not with the intention to go down and 17 take it over immediately from the uniform officers. 18 They are doing a great job, but we're afforded a lot of 19 extra training, and we're afforded a lot of extra 20 equipment, so we want to go down there and make sure we 21 can get those things implemented so it would potentially 22 slow it down, and try to mitigate any potential use of 23 force. 24 And that's what happened. I met with Chad, 25 I got authorization to walk down there and look at it
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 141 1 from the captain. And my sergeant, over the radio, 2 approved, and I walked down with Chad. Chad had already 3 been looking at his phone, and knew where this was at so 4 he walked me down. And as we were walking down, we 5 actually made eye contact and saw Sergeant Burley, who 6 was standing in the parking structure already. And we 7 walked towards him to make contact with him. 8 Q And we're looking at the scene, and we see 9 this parking structure, and then the sidewalk across the 10 street to the -- I guess, it would be the east of the 11 parking structure where the subject, Michael Johnson, 12 was. 13 And when you look at the scene in this open 14 area, and this residential area in Northwest Portland, 15 and having the information that you have now gathered in 16 terms of the man with the gun and the other factors, 17 what are you thinking in terms of safety for the 18 community and for yourself? 19 A Well, these are really dynamic events, and 20 they are difficult. They are difficult, because we know 21 that we're dealing with somebody that is in emotional 22 crisis or mental health crisis. They are not criminals. 23 So really, you know, my job, and what we're 24 thinking about from our aspect when you come to these 25 things, is how can we get them services, and how can we
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 142 1 minimize the risk to the public. 2 So we have to prioritize things. He is 3 armed. We have seen the gun. He's in an environment 4 that we don't have control of. He could walk over to 5 Good Sam Hospital. There's people in these houses. 6 There's people in these high-rise buildings, and I know, 7 human nature, people are up against the glass wanting to 8 watch, and see what the police are doing and video us. 9 So there's a lot of concern about that. 10 And it's difficult for us, too, because 11 it's not a criminal. That changes your demeanor. You 12 know, you are there because -- you know, at the end of 13 the day, if we didn't have to use force on that guy, 14 we're taking him to a hospital. Our goal is to get 15 there, and gain some control so we can have some 16 flexibility and what he can do, be a little bit more 17 lenient. 18 But things gotta occur in a certain 19 timeline. We have to get the scene safe first, so 20 that's what we're trying to do. 21 Q So from the position you were in about, if 22 you could estimate, how far were you away from Sergeant 23 Burley, who was also with another negotiator, Sergeant 24 Kevin Warren? 25 A Usually what we will do is walk up, and I
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 143 1 will meet the patrol supervisor, who was Sergeant Quick. 2 So I saw him standing there. And I don't have a lot to 3 do with them. I want to make sure to see where their 4 officers are at, and make sure they have the right tools 5 there, and that nobody is in a bad position. 6 And one of the things that we talk about is 7 we don't want to add energy into the event -- 8 Q What does that mean? 9 A We don't want our presence, the way we do 10 things, to squeeze on him, or put energy on him. So 11 we're trying to be out of sight. We're trying to get 12 the officers to come and talk to us. 13 And I look over and I see him in the 14 parking lot. I was shocked initially at how close they 15 were to him. He was just on the other side, and they 16 were up against the concrete wall trying to engage him 17 in conversation. 18 And I know from my experience, you know, a 19 lot of these thing do get resolved through negotiations. 20 So there is some value in allowing that face-to-face 21 communication to occur, because a lot of these things do 22 get negotiated. 23 But that comes with a lot of inherent risk, 24 too, because they are within 60 feet of a guy armed with 25 a handgun. And that guy could, at any given time, point
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 144 1 that gun at them and discharge it in their direction. 2 But to pull them back and give up talking to him, and 3 maybe let him start to wander off is what you are trying 4 to weigh. 5 So I was shocked how close we were, but not 6 to the point where I thought we needed to back people 7 away. I thought it was important to engage him in 8 dialogue, and offer him some form of communication. I 9 saw a patrol officer there with a rifle. I didn't know 10 who he was. I saw a custody team of officers to the 11 south on 22 and Kearney. And I saw Chris was taking 12 negotiations. 13 So for me, that whole dialogue piece, 14 talking to him piece, there's nobody else better to do 15 that than the guys that are there ready to do it, so 16 that takes the pressure off of me for just trying to 17 evaluate the scene. 18 I thought the first thing I wanted to do 19 was put Chad in place of the uniform officer that was 20 there. The -- my reasoning for that is I know Chad is 21 very disciplined. I know that he is very thorough, and 22 he gets what we're trying to accomplish. And patrol 23 officers do a great job, but they work by themselves all 24 the time. Sometimes they don't recognize the entire 25 picture of what the entire team is trying to do, and the
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 145 1 tools that are there. 2 So I wanted Chad to be the person, if 3 somebody had to use lethal force on the subject, it 4 would be Chad because he would be as restrained as 5 possible. He's a good decision-maker. 6 So Chad took that role, and I met with 7 Sergeant Quick. And then I started looking at the 8 scene, and communicating via radio back to command about 9 what resources were arriving, and what we need to do 10 first. And the first priority is contain it so he can't 11 walk off and go into Good Sam, and then start getting 12 people out of harm's way. Getting people out of 13 windows, getting them out of houses, because if we 14 accomplish that, we have a lot more tools available for 15 us and a lot more leniency toward his behavior. 16 So that's where I was at that point in 17 time. Chad took a position that would have been off to 18 my left, which was more to the north in that parking 19 structure. And I moved down probably 25 feet away from 20 him, behind the pillar, out of sight so I could 21 communicate via radio, and yet still see the overall 22 scene. 23 Q From your perspective, could you tell 24 whether Sergeant Burley, or anyone else, seemed to be 25 having effective communication with Mr. Johnson?
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 146 1 A No. My assessment on the communication 2 piece was they got some communication, the uniform did, 3 I think before we got there. There was some dialogue 4 exchanged. But my perception from what was occurring 5 with Chris is they were just talking at him. There was 6 no feedback coming back from him that I specifically 7 recall. 8 Definitely not to the point where I heard 9 audible exchanges between them. I heard Chris and his 10 team trying to engage him, but I wasn't seeing anything 11 that I was perceiving as, this is going in a good 12 direction. As a matter of fact, it actually was 13 concerning to me that I wasn't hearing that, because he 14 was looking around, looking where we were at, looking 15 where other officers were, and seemed not to want to 16 focus and engage with Chris and his team that was 17 talking to him. 18 Q We understand that eventually Mr. Johnson 19 fired a round, a shot into the ground. Did you see that 20 happen? 21 A I did -- well, let me back up. 22 I was actually talking, and again, trying 23 to work through the coordination piece. I heard the 24 shot, turned around and saw him standing on the other 25 side of the curb, kind of by the flower bed area, with a
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 147 1 gun blatantly displayed in his right hand and pointed 2 down at the ground. I recognized the report of a 3 handgun. And I knew for sure, and the way I turned my 4 direction to it, he fired, and it was in his right hand, 5 pointed down at the ground. 6 And that was the first time I pointed my 7 rifle at him. I was watching his action. I have had 8 enough experience to know that somebody in his state 9 that is trying to maybe precipitate a suicide by cop, 10 they get there. They present the gun, and a lot of 11 people think that as soon as they present the gun to the 12 police officer, they are going to get shot. 13 That didn't occur. The officers that got 14 there showed great restraint. That didn't happen. He 15 walks around. But somebody that really wants that 16 event, it's like they try to one-up it the next time. 17 So the fact that he shot, I am sure he was expecting a 18 response from us. 19 So now I am thinking, he just shot into the 20 ground. He didn't get the response that he probably 21 expected. We're still trying to continue to engage him 22 in conversation, and maybe now he's going to turn and 23 point that gun directly at us, or directly at us and 24 fire, or at somebody else. So I was watching that 25 rather intently to make sure that didn't occur.
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 148 1 And ultimately, he ended up walking around 2 and sitting back down again by the tree. And then I 3 took my focus back off him. We started to have some 4 equipment arrive. We started to have an armored vehicle 5 show up. It's not a real intimidating looking vehicle, 6 but it allows us the ability to bring tools closer to 7 where he's at, and it allows us to get officers behind 8 it so we can talk to him. And it gives us an added 9 level of protection. And I wanted that down close in 10 case we could negotiate from that, if it turned into a 11 deal where we were going to be there for awhile. So I 12 was trying it get that down Kearney from 23rd. 13 I had an officer on the team, Jim Townley, 14 show up, and he had a less lethal munition, something 15 that might afford us the opportunity to use a different 16 type of level of force. But the tool wasn't really 17 appropriate at that distance, but the dynamics of the 18 event could change and I wanted it close by so we could 19 have it if we needed it. 20 Q And to clarify what you are saying, then, 21 this was something that was not a firearm that would 22 shoot a small rubber ball? 23 A It shoots a foam baton round. It's 24 similar -- a lot of people are familiar with the 25 shotguns that shoot the bean bag socks. The
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 149 1 manufacturers will say it's effective at a greater range 2 than it truly is. It has about a 25-foot range. The 3 problem is it's pain compliance. And somebody who is 4 suffering from mental illness or who is in crisis, their 5 response to pain compliance can be really unpredictable. 6 So again, it comes into putting energy into 7 the event. I am good with where it was. He sat back 8 down. I don't want to use that tool. And it's really 9 not effective or proper for that specific time. 10 But he was there and I was talking to him 11 about what his role could be, if we needed him to be 12 involved. And while that was occurring, I, out of the 13 corner of my eye, see him get back up. And when he 14 stood back up, again, I put my rifle on him. 15 And I am actually against that pillar that 16 you see. And it's actually -- the little red marker 17 where the yellow placards are, those are my spent shell 18 casings. So I am actually to the pillar, towards this 19 way, not on the picture right now. 20 Q The pillar that is closer to us? 21 A Yes. And I am to the right of it, and 22 those shell casings were coming out to the right. So I 23 am -- actually, that pillar right there. 24 That looks distorted to me. Can you go 25 down to the farther pillar, the farthest one down.
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 150 1 Q Meaning on the opposite side? 2 A Down to the south, so up on the screen. 3 That's the last one. Yeah, that's the one I was at. It 4 just looks distorted for some reason. 5 So I was at the one you were currently 6 looking at, not that one, not that far away. 7 I was standing to the right of it, and I 8 was back so he really couldn't see me. I knew Chad was 9 up closer to the concrete wall, looking through -- you 10 can see how it has the slats from the top to the 11 bottom -- using the concrete wall as cover. Keep coming 12 back. So it's the one right there. I was off to the 13 right of that one, behind it. 14 And the picture really distorts that. It's 15 farther back than it looks. And so -- because that's 16 one parking stall, and you can see how stretched out it 17 is. 18 Q Meaning between those two lines is the 19 width of a car, and it does appear kind of stretched 20 out? 21 A Sure. So I am next to that pillar, and 22 really those pillars are probably two-foot square, 23 two-foot by two-foot. And so I am to the right. I am 24 watching him. I see him get back up. I put my rifle on 25 him, because now I am concerned that again, he didn't
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 151 1 get the response he wanted. We don't have containment 2 on him. He can walk off, and go to the hospital. 3 Obviously, there's occupants in the houses. 4 That's an open medical office building up above me, it's 5 multi-levels. I can look to the north, and I see Good 6 Sam Hospital is multi-stories, windows. All over to the 7 north and west of where he's at, and where he's looking. 8 He gets up. He's got the gun in his right 9 hand. He walks back into the same position and fires 10 the gun again, and the whole time he's doing this he has 11 his left hand up to his ear, as well, and I couldn't 12 tell if he was on the phone, or what. But his left 13 hand, he kept up by his head, as well. 14 And time frame on this is literally, I am 15 there a little before 7:00. It's 7:00-ish, he's firing 16 off his first round. And five minutes later he's up and 17 doing it again. 18 And I watch him, and he sits down. And 19 when he sits down this time, he brings the gun up to his 20 head in his right hand with his back against the tree, 21 and the gun is to his head, and the left hand is up on 22 his ear, and the gun is pointed out behind him. 23 And he's sitting down, and you can see his 24 demeanor change. To me, it looked like he was breathing 25 a little harder, and he was a little more pumped up or
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 152 1 not -- not overly agitated, but he just looked a little 2 more excited, and he's sitting up against the tree. 3 And you know, I am already thinking, it's 4 going in a really bad place. I talked to you guys 5 earlier about how for us, you know, you envision dealing 6 with criminals. We realize this guy is not a criminal. 7 You don't want to have to use force on him, and you are 8 looking at him sitting against that tree, and you could 9 tell he's getting pumped. 10 So we hadn't done anything. We hadn't been 11 able to do anything in that short amount of time to make 12 the situation better. We have already been, in my 13 opinion, incredibly lenient with him moving around, and 14 discharging the firearm. 15 And I made the decision at that point in 16 time that I wasn't going to let him point that firearm 17 back at the negotiations team. I wasn't going to let 18 him point it at myself, or point it at the hospital and 19 discharge that gun. 20 If it was a revolver, he had at least three 21 to four rounds left. I know from my training if he 22 decides to shoot, he's going to do it before I can stop 23 him. The best I can do is stop him from shooting more 24 than once. Unless you totally take a preemptive action, 25 but if he brings that gun down and goes to level it, by
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 153 1 the time I perceive that action and respond to the 2 action, it's already occurred. 3 So I kind of convinced myself that if I see 4 that gun come down again from his head, and he points it 5 towards the negotiations team or the building, I am 6 probably going to be in a position where I have to take 7 action. 8 Q Why did you make that decision? 9 A It's twofold. It's -- one is, I know he 10 still has three to four rounds left. We still have the 11 obligation to protect the citizens that are there, 12 probably peaking outside from windows in the occupied 13 buildings. And I have an obligation to myself, I have 14 an obligation to the team that is trying to talk to him. 15 You know, Chris and those guys are standing 16 there without guns. I mean, they have guns on them, but 17 they are trying to be disarming, and they are trying to 18 present themselves in a fashion to make him feel 19 comfortable and talking to him, and they are relying on 20 us not to let them get hurt. So you have an obligation 21 to make sure that doesn't occur. 22 And I felt there was great risk of somebody 23 seriously getting injured, or even killed if we were to 24 allow him to point that gun at us, or shoot it off into 25 the building. So that's -- as much as I don't want to
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 154 1 be in that position, if time could be stretched out and 2 we could evacuate people, then we have other options. 3 But everything was so condensed in like a 15-minute time 4 frame, we just didn't have time to get all of that stuff 5 in place. 6 Q So what was the next thing that happened? 7 A I noticed he -- again, I wasn't covering 8 him with a rifle. Chad -- that was Chad's job. He was 9 off to my left. I am just there kind of supporting, and 10 trying to do some other things. But I see the movement 11 out of the corner of my eye, either getting up again or 12 something has changed. 13 And as I'm starting to turn around, and 14 bring my rifle up, I can see he is lowering the gun from 15 his head, and he's not making the attempt to get up. 16 He's lowering the gun from his head, and it's being 17 leveled to the position of Chad, and what I perceived to 18 be where I last knew the negotiation team to be. 19 And at that point in time, I decided -- 20 mentally, I had decided I was already going to shoot. 21 Before I even did it, I heard his gun go off. And I 22 fired my gun three times. I had a pretty limited, 23 actual, what we would call -- hate getting all 24 technical, but area to aim at, because he was down 25 lower.
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 155 1 I was back behind that retaining wall. And 2 where I was at, I could see his head and his upper body, 3 but if I was to shoot in that direction, I would 4 probably impact that concrete wall that is in front of 5 me because of the offsets and angles. So I had to shoot 6 through the gap that is in the concrete wall, which just 7 afforded a look at the lower body of him. 8 And so that's what I aimed at, and part of 9 the reason is you have to be cognizant of what is behind 10 him, if you were to miss or bullets were to not be 11 contained, where would they go. 12 Q Could you tell whether you had any effect 13 on him when you fired your weapon? 14 A I could see his demeanor change. He went 15 from rigid to relaxed, and I could also hear that Chad 16 was shooting, as well, you know. Two different weapon 17 systems were being used, Chad and I were using the same, 18 he's shooting a handgun. Our rifles sound way different 19 than his handgun. So I knew without a doubt that his 20 round occurred, and then Chad and I both relatively at 21 the same time started to shoot, as well. 22 And I saw the gun -- or his upper body go 23 from stiff and pointed to his hands falling down and 24 relaxed. And when we saw that change in his demeanor is 25 when we stopped shooting.
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 156 1 Q What is your training in terms of the 2 number of the times that you would fire when you make 3 the decision to fire your weapon? 4 A You shoot to stop the threat. And that's 5 the easy answer. You know, you are looking for his 6 actions to change, and they did. And when I perceived 7 his actions change, I knew we had impacted him and we 8 have changed that, and we stopped. 9 Q So you made an intentional decision to 10 shoot. And are you saying you also made an intentional 11 decision to stop firing? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Of course, in the movies, we have all seen 14 actors shoot a gun out of someone's hand, or things like 15 that, trick shots. Is that realistic? Is that 16 something that police officers are trained to do? 17 A No, it's not realistic. Literally, for me, 18 and I can't speak to what Officer Daul saw, in the 19 position I was, it was so fast that I would be just 20 hoping to be able to stop his actions by impacting him 21 anywhere that I was aiming at. 22 It wasn't like I was sitting there waiting 23 to take the shot. The shot came off, and I turned, I 24 see the behavior, and I am engaging him at that point in 25 time. To think I could have shot the gun out -- I
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 157 1 couldn't even take the shot before he shot at us. 2 Q I am assuming that although you have been 3 instructed by your command staff not to discuss this 4 matter with others, you have thought about it since 5 November 6th. Is that fair to say? 6 A Uh-huh. 7 Q Do you think you would have made a 8 different decision in hindsight, or do you believe that 9 under the circumstances you made the correct decision? 10 A I think under the circumstances, I 11 definitely made a correct decision. I sometimes wonder 12 if I waited too long, and put the negotiations team at 13 too much risk. 14 But I also recognize and the bureau, and 15 specifically the tactical team, I know a lot of people 16 have the perception that we run around in armored 17 vehicles with all this gear and everything. But I have 18 always told people what we bring is an escalation in 19 safety. 20 We have a lot more options, a lot better 21 training, and a lot more ability to try and understand 22 what the bureau is trying to accomplish, as well. And 23 we recognize the difficulties in dealing with people 24 that are in mental health crisis, or emotional crisis, 25 and we don't want to be shooting those guys. And so
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 158 1 we're doing everything we can to afford them every 2 opportunity to surrender. 3 And we were doing that with this guy, 4 actually to the point where I sit there and I wonder if 5 we waited too long. It could have been very tragic that 6 day, as well, for the officers that were standing there 7 talking to him. 8 Q Because he was firing the weapon? 9 A Sure. 10 Q In that space? 11 A Yeah. 12 MR. REES: Any questions for Officer Corno? 13 A JUROR: So it looks like when I look at 14 the wall, you can see where light comes through. So you 15 were standing behind there. So you said, so tactically, 16 to be able to get your shot right, so you were right 17 between there. It looks really narrow. Is it wider 18 than it appears to be? 19 THE WITNESS: It was about that wide 20 (indicating). I estimate, without looking at this 21 picture, where I was standing at that brick wall to the 22 brick wall was probably closer to eight feet, is what I 23 remember. 24 And if you look at the width of those 25 parking stalls, they are stretched out. And the
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 159 1 columns, I know, were like that wide, square, 2 (indicating). 3 And I was standing to the right of it, and 4 like I said, just his lower elevation, standing up, if I 5 was to go over the wall, anything that probably would 6 have come out of the end of my gun would have probably 7 impacted the top of the wall. So I was looking through 8 that gap. 9 MR. REES: Anything else? 10 (No response.) 11 MR. REES: Seeing no questions, we will end 12 our afternoon session, and let this witness go. 13 (Proceedings concluded at 3:59 p.m.) 14 ********** 15 PROCEEDINGS 16 Friday, December 4, 2015, at 9:09 a.m. 17 18 LELAND SAMUELSON, 19 produced as a witness, having been first duly sworn, 20 was examined and testified as follows: 21 THE WITNESS: I do. 22 23 DIRECT EXAMINATION 24 BY MR. REES: 25 Q Please be seated, and we're keeping the
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 160 1 chair a little bit close so the court reporter can hear 2 what you are saying. 3 When you are ready, I will have you state 4 your first and last name, and spell it for the record. 5 A Leland Samuelson, L-E-L-A-N-D, 6 S-A-M-U-E-L-S-O-N. 7 Q All right, Mr. Samuelson, for the record, 8 would you please state your occupation? 9 A I'm a forensic scientist with the Oregon 10 State Police. I work in the Portland Metro Laboratory, 11 and within the laboratory I am a firearms and tool marks 12 examiner. 13 Q What is your education? 14 A I have a bachelor's of science degree in 15 chemistry from the University of Portland, with a minor 16 in physics. That's kind of like the criteria to get in 17 to be hired as a forensic scientist. And then within 18 our laboratory we are -- we all have specialized 19 disciplines -- DNA, latent prints or chemistry, and 20 firearms training program. 21 It's about a two-year program to become 22 qualified to do that kind of case work with training 23 by -- within our own department. And then training by 24 the FBI, the Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms, different 25 firearms manufacturers, ammunition manufacturers, as
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 161 1 well as professional training seminars in that field. 2 Q And then after that training, you actually 3 worked in the field of firearms examination, and how 4 many years have you done that? 5 A For just a little over 16 years. 6 Q And so in this case, were you asked by the 7 Portland Police Bureau to examine some articles of 8 evidence that were checked, related to a shooting that 9 occurred on November 6, 2015? 10 A Yes, I was. 11 Q And one of the items, I believe, that was 12 sent to the lab for examination is seen in this photo, 13 which was placard No. 18. And it looks like a metal 14 misshapen bullet. 15 Is that, in fact, one of the items you 16 looked at? 17 A Yes, I did. 18 Q And what, if anything, were you able to 19 conclude about that? 20 A Yeah. So we -- I was given, with this 21 bullet, some different firearms to see if I could 22 identify that bullet to some of the firearms that came 23 into this case to our laboratory. 24 One of the things I noticed about this 25 bullet is when bullets are manufactured, they are kind
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 162 1 of made out of two common metals; one being lead and one 2 being copper. The lead would be kind of like the core 3 of the bullet. The copper is what we call the jacket, 4 so that's the outer surface. So they are bonded 5 together, either mechanically or chemically. 6 So this particular bullet has lost its 7 outer jacket. And the jacket material is what comes in 8 contact with the fire's rifling to give it the spin as 9 it comes out. Without that jacket, that rifling, we 10 can't identify that to a specific firearm. 11 But in general, I would say it weighs about 12 130 grains. That's a weight that we use in the firearms 13 field, and that's the typical weight of larger bullets, 14 such as .38 caliber, 9 millimeter would be the metric 15 equivalent to that. So I feel that's probably from a 16 larger caliber handgun. 17 Q And did you also examine a handgun, a .38 18 caliber Rossi brand revolver, chrome plated, that was 19 seized from the deceased in this case, Michael Johnson? 20 A Yes, I did. 21 Q Do you have a photograph of that gun? 22 A Yes. It's actually -- it's -- this would 23 be a photograph of it, and I will let you guys look at 24 it, and pass it around. It is actually stainless steel 25 construction.
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 163 1 Q And in what -- when you examined it, did 2 you perform a functionality test, meaning checking to 3 see whether this was a fully operational, normally 4 operating firearm? 5 A Yeah. So it's basically -- it's a 6 five-shot revolver, holds five cartridges. Revolver 7 meaning you load them all in the cylinder, and then the 8 cylinder rotates around clockwise, in this case to 9 rotate to the next cartridge. It's what we call a 10 double-action revolver. 11 So there's two ways you can pull it out and 12 brandish it, and use it. You can either cock the hammer 13 back and then fire it, or you can pull it out and start 14 pulling the trigger. So you have two ways to fire it. 15 It has some internal safety mechanisms in 16 the gun to keep it from accidentally going off. I test 17 fired it and found it to be functional, operated as 18 designed with no particular issues. 19 Q And for those who aren't familiar with 20 different types of handguns, from your perspective 21 active as a firearms examiner, would this be considered 22 a small type of handgun, or a larger type of handgun? 23 A It's -- relatively speaking, you can look 24 at it either way. It's a short barrel. It's designed 25 to be -- it could be concealed in a small holster, or in
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 164 1 a waistband or pocket. But it's a large caliber 2 firearm. A .38 packs a pretty good punch. 3 So it's not something that would be like a 4 small -- like a plinking-type gun that you would go out 5 target shooting, or shooting, such as a .22 caliber. So 6 I don't know if that clears that up or not. 7 Q But just because people may not be familiar 8 with a .38 caliber, .38 caliber is a larger caliber 9 round, is it not? 10 A Yeah. So a .38 caliber is basically -- 11 it's a kind of a rough measurement of the diameter of 12 the barrel, and it would be the diameter of the bullets 13 that the gun can actually shoot. So firearms typically 14 range from the small end, which would be a .22 caliber 15 or about .22 inches, to the extreme would be atypical -- 16 would be a .45 caliber, .450 inches. So at .38, 17 approximately, it's kind of up in that middle to upper 18 range. 19 Q And when you examined this particular gun, 20 the Rossi .38, was it fully functional and operational? 21 A Yes, it was. 22 Q Did you check things like the trigger pull 23 on the weapon? 24 A Yes, I did. 25 Q And was that normal or unusual?
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 165 1 A Normal range when you cock the gun. So a 2 trigger pull gives us an indication of how much force 3 you pull on your finger to set the trigger. So again, 4 there's two ways to fire the gun. You can see this is 5 the trigger, and this would be the hammer up here in the 6 back. It's in the down position, as I photographed it. 7 This is as I received it with the -- out of the box with 8 the grips off of it. 9 So if I was to pull this hammer back with 10 my thumb to get the gun ready to shoot, it has a lighter 11 pull. So about two-and-three-quarters of a pound. If 12 it was in the down position, as I photographed it here, 13 if I pull the trigger, the hammer is going to come back, 14 all the way back, and at some point it's going to come 15 back forward on its own. 16 So that takes significantly more force. In 17 this case, 10-and-three-quarters pounds, but those are 18 both typical weights which I would expect on a gun like 19 this. 20 Q And is this type of weapon designed for a 21 particular purpose? 22 A I would say it's probably marketed 23 primarily for personal protection. 24 Q And when you say personal protection, so 25 that wouldn't be hunting or target shooting?
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 166 1 A No, I wouldn't expect to commonly use a gun 2 like this for those purposes. 3 Q So by personal protection, do you mean for 4 shooting other people? 5 A Yeah, that would be a use for it. 6 Q And were you able to determine how many 7 times that gun had been fired? 8 A Just based kind of empirically on the 9 evidence that I got, I was given three cartridge cases 10 that were empty, and then two cartridges that had not 11 been fired yet. And they are reported as being taken 12 out of the revolver. So I didn't do any further exam, 13 but the assumption being that it's been fired at least 14 three times, and two cartridges were left in the gun. 15 Q And again, just going back, then, to that 16 particular gun and placard No. 18, although you are not 17 able to do a rifling match, as you said, does it appear 18 that that spent bullet is consistent with the type of 19 round fired from the gun? 20 A Yes, it does. 21 Q And is it consistent with the types of 22 rounds that the police were using in this case? 23 A No. No. 24 Q In what fashion? 25 A Well, this is a -- so these are what we
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 167 1 call a full-metal jacketed bullet. So going back to 2 that copper, so it would have had the nose, the rounding 3 surface of it would have all been copper. And this 4 would have been inserted in that copper cup. 5 Portland Police rifles that their teams are 6 using are a .22 caliber bullet, so they are much smaller 7 and they are what we call a soft point. So it's a 8 completely different bullet design. 9 Q Now, on the screen is placard No. 18, an 10 item that was mentioned earlier in this case that was 11 also found in the parking lot. 12 Did you take a look at that? 13 A JUROR: Do you mean 17? 14 MR. REES: Yeah, what did I say? 15 A JUROR: You said 18. 16 MR. REES: Thank you. 17 Q BY MR. REES: Did you look at that? 18 A Yes, I did. 19 Q What did you determine that to be? 20 A I don't believe that's a bullet fragment. 21 Think it's just a piece of metal that was picked up on 22 the parking lot surface there. 23 Q Okay. And then as to other 24 examinations you conducted, did you look at the firearms 25 used or being identified as being used by the two
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 168 1 officers in this case that used deadly force? 2 A Yes, I did. 3 Q What did you note about those weapons? 4 A Those are both Colt -- Colt manufactured 5 rifles, the M4 Commando. It's what we call a select 6 fire. It can be fired semi-automatically or fully 7 automatically. Typical firearm used by police officers 8 and SWAT teams. 9 In this case I was asked to determine if 10 the guns were functional, document the safeties, the 11 trigger pulls, so I did an examination of both of those 12 rifles. 13 Q Did you see anything that was somewhat 14 abnormal or dysfunctional about those weapons? 15 A No, I did not. 16 Q Were you able to determine how many rounds 17 were fired by the weapons? 18 A Yeah. There were seven fired cartridge 19 cases that were picked up at the scene. And I was able 20 to determine -- and I can be more specific if needed, 21 but it was -- three of the cartridge cases were fired by 22 one of the officer's rifles, and then four or five from 23 another -- from the other officer's rifle. 24 MR. REES: Thank you, Mr. Samuelson. Let 25 me check if there are any additional questions about any
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 169 1 of that testimony. 2 (No response.) 3 MR. REES: All right. Seeing no questions, 4 we will excuse you, and thank you for coming up. 5 6 JAMES TOWNLEY, 7 produced as a witness, having been first duly sworn, 8 was examined and testified as follows: 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. 10 11 DIRECT EXAMINATION 12 BY MR. REES: 13 Q Thank you, Officer. If you would please 14 state your first and last name, and spell your name. 15 A James Townley, J-A-M-E-S, T-O-W-N-L-E-Y. 16 Q What is your occupation? 17 A I am a police officer with the Portland 18 Police. 19 Q How long have you been a police officer? 20 A About seven-and-a-half years. 21 Q Directing your attention to the morning of 22 November 6, 2015, a Friday morning, did you become aware 23 of a situation involving a man with a gun in Northwest 24 Portland near Good Sam Hospital? 25 A I did, yes. I got a page.
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 170 1 Q About what time was that? 2 A It was about 6:30, roughly. 3 Q And was that a regular workday for you? 4 A Yes, it was, but I was not at work. I 5 wasn't scheduled to work until 3:00 in the afternoon. 6 Q What did you do when you received the page? 7 A I got up, because I was sleeping, read the 8 page. It said that there was an armed suicidal person 9 in the area of 22nd and Kearney, and basically it was a 10 SERT call-out, so respond immediately. 11 Q So you are a member of the Special 12 Emergency Response Team? 13 A Correct, yes. 14 Q What location did you go to? 15 A I went to 23rd, a couple blocks south of 16 Lovejoy. 17 Q You ended up that morning, I believe, in 18 the parking structure that is in this image here? 19 A Correct. 20 Q And let me just move the image to this end. 21 Do you see the area, generally, where you ended up? 22 A Generally, I was somewhere up there. I am 23 thinking I was to the left. I was in that parking 24 garage, but it's hard to see from that angle, I suppose. 25 Q The image is a little distorted, obviously.
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 171 1 Who else was up there, that you were aware of? 2 A Russ Corno was up there. Chad Daul was up 3 there. Chris Burley was up there, and there were a few 4 other uniform officers, two, three, maybe, but I don't 5 know who they were. 6 Q And what was your role? 7 A So my role, by the time I got up there, 8 Russ Corno and Chad Daul were right up there. And when 9 I got there, one of our armored trucks, the Bear Cat, 10 pulled up. 11 So I went to the Bear Cat to get it ready, 12 because I knew we were going to need an armored car 13 somewhere. So I went into the Bear Cat, and I loaded up 14 one of our -- it's a 40-millimeter less-lethal launcher, 15 basically. And I loaded it up with blue-tip sponge 16 rounds that are basically used as a pain compliance tool 17 to try to change somebody's mind, or change their course 18 of action. 19 Q So this is not a firearm with a bullet, 20 this is a device that shoots out a hard rubber ball, you 21 might say? 22 A Essentially, right. It's actually a 23 sponge, like a blue sponge, as opposed to like rubber. 24 But, yeah, it's basically a projectile that strikes 25 somebody and causes pain in order to attempt to try to
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 172 1 change their course of action. 2 Q And we understand that Officer Corno and 3 Officer Daul had their police firearms, and that Officer 4 Burley was attempting to have some kind of conversation 5 with the individual with the handgun? 6 A That's correct. 7 Q Did you witness that occurring? 8 A I did, yes. 9 Q And so what was your assignment in the 10 parking garage? 11 A So once I got to the Bear Cat and got this 12 less-lethal launcher ready, I heard Russ Corno ask over 13 the radio what the commander's intention was regarding 14 what the commander would like to have happen if this 15 subject tries to leave this loose area where he was 16 loosely contained. 17 And the commander came back on the radio 18 and said that he was authorizing any sort of less-lethal 19 option to try to keep him in that area. So my role, 20 since I picked up the 40-millimeter less-lethal 21 launcher, was to do that. My role was to go forward and 22 attempt to, if he tried to leave that area, keep him in 23 that area. 24 Q What was the thought behind that, that you 25 would use that if the man with the gun started to walk
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 173 1 or run away from the sidewalk area? 2 A Correct. So -- 3 Q What was the reason for that? 4 A As I am sure everybody in here knows, 22nd 5 and Kearney, Northwest, on a Friday morning at about 6 7:00 a.m., there's a hospital right there, it's very 7 dense housing and business area. At 7:00 in the morning 8 on Friday morning, the city is coming to life. There 9 are people everywhere. 10 This subject was posing a huge risk to, you 11 know, everybody in the neighborhood. Somebody could 12 just walk out their door going to work, and here's this 13 guy with a gun. And so if we allow him to leave this 14 area, that risk is escalated hugely to everybody in the 15 area. 16 And so the purpose was to try to keep him 17 there to where we could at least, you know, reduce that 18 risk as much as possible. 19 Q Would you use that less-lethal projectile 20 as a preemptive strike, so to speak? In other words, 21 just use it when he's standing there on the sidewalk? 22 A In this situation, I don't think so. I 23 think that he was staying in one place. I think that if 24 I were to, as he's standing in one place, try to -- say 25 Chris Burley is trying to talk to the guy and he's not
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 174 1 responding, if I were to try to shoot him with that -- 2 again, it's just a pain compliance tool. It's going to 3 hit him, and it's going to hurt. You run a high-risk of 4 escalating the incident, and potentially precipitating 5 something. 6 So I don't think so. I don't think that 7 would have been a good option. It's not going to take 8 the gun out of his hand, and it's probably just going to 9 make him angry. 10 Q What effect does that have when someone is 11 hit with one of those sponge projectiles? 12 A It will leave a mark, and it's going to 13 hurt, but it's not going to immobilize you. It's not 14 going to -- if you are set on doing something, it's not 15 going to prevent you from doing it. It just hurts. 16 A JUROR: Would it be like similar to a 17 paint ball gun? 18 THE WITNESS: It's a similar concept. It's 19 bigger and it will hurt more, but similar concept. It's 20 not going to stop somebody who is set on doing 21 something. It's an option to try to change their mind. 22 Q BY MR. REES: So what happened then? You 23 are there, Officers Corno and Daul are there, Chad 24 Burley -- 25 A Chris Burley?
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 175 1 Q I am sorry, Chris Burley. What happened? 2 A So I am standing there behind the pillar 3 with Russ. Russ is off to my right, I am off to his 4 left. And I just get there, and I am kind of taking it 5 in, I am trying to -- like I said, my purpose is to try 6 to keep him there. 7 So I am kind of looking around at the 8 surrounding area, trying to take everything in and 9 figure out, you know, how far is it safe for this person 10 to move, if he wants to move. I don't want to hit him 11 with it too early and potentially precipitate an 12 incident. But at the same time, I don't want him to 13 move out of my range to where now I can't do anything to 14 help anybody else. 15 So I am standing there, kind of watching, 16 taking this all in. And as I am standing there 17 watching, I just see his gun come and point straight at 18 us. And in my mind I am thinking, okay, this is 19 happening right now. He's pointing a gun at me right 20 now. He's going to shoot at me, my life is immediately 21 in danger. I ducked back behind the pillar, and I am 22 waiting for a round to strike the pillar. And the next 23 thing I know, I hear gunshots. 24 Q Were you surprised that the officers 25 returned fire?
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 176 1 A No. No. If I had had a lethal option in 2 my hands, I would have done the same thing. He was 3 pointing a gun at me, there was no doubt in my mind he 4 was shooting, he was getting ready to shoot at me 5 immediately. I didn't have to think about it, just my 6 instincts, I jumped back behind the pillar. 7 Q And this may be obvious, but why didn't you 8 use your less-lethal projectiles at that point? 9 A So several reasons. One, it wouldn't have 10 been fast enough. I needed to get out of the way. And 11 the reason it wouldn't have been fast enough is because 12 I was not holding it up on target, looking through the 13 sights. 14 And the reason I was not up on target, 15 looking through the sights was because -- couple 16 reasons: One, I was still looking around the area 17 trying to get a lay of the land, figure out where other 18 officers were, trying to figure out how far I could 19 potentially let him move. 20 And second, more basic reason is I was on 21 the left side of the pillar, and I am a right-handed 22 person. And so in order for me to -- I knew if I was 23 going to end up shooting this guy with this projectile, 24 he was probably going to be moving. And I don't want to 25 try to shoot in this type of situation where it's
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 177 1 imperative that if he tries to move, it's imperative to 2 try to hit him to stop him from moving. 3 I didn't want to be shooting a moving 4 target left-handed, because I am a right-handed person. 5 So rather than moving it to my left shoulder and leaning 6 out over the pillar so I would be minimally exposed, I 7 kept it in my right hand. Because like I said, I knew 8 he would be moving. So in order for me to be up on 9 target, out of my right hand, I would have been 10 basically completely exposed from the pillar, and I 11 would not have had any protection. So that's why I did 12 it -- or that's why I didn't, I suppose. 13 Q When you saw him fire the gun into the 14 parking structure, were you aware at that point that he 15 had already fired the gun twice? 16 A Yes, I was. Yes. So when I first got 17 there, and I got to the Bear Cat, and I was loading up 18 the 40-millimeter launcher, I heard a gunshot go off. 19 And then I heard somebody get on the radio and say that 20 he had fired the gun into the ground, and then a short 21 time later, we started moving the Bear Cat towards them 22 a little bit. I heard a second round go off, and then I 23 believe somebody came on the radio again and said that 24 another round was fired. 25 Q On the incident you just described when he
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 178 1 fires the gun, could you see the muzzle flash of the 2 weapon? 3 A I could not, no. I ducked behind cover. I 4 saw the barrel pointing at me, and my instincts, I dove 5 back. I was not up on a gun. I dove back behind cover. 6 Q Anything else I didn't ask you that you 7 think the Grand Jury should be aware of? 8 A No, I don't think so. 9 MR. REES: Any questions from the Grand 10 Jury. 11 (No response.) 12 MR. REES: All right, Officer Townley, 13 thank you very much for coming in. 14 15 CHAD DAUL, 16 produced as a witness, having been first duly sworn, 17 was examined and testified as follows: 18 THE WITNESS: I do. 19 20 DIRECT EXAMINATION 21 BY MR. REES: 22 Q Officer, good morning. If you would state 23 your first and last name, and spell your name? 24 A Chad Daul, D-A-U-L. 25 Q And what is your occupation?
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 179 1 A Police officer. 2 Q And with the City of Portland? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And how long have you been a police 5 officer? 6 A 22 years. 7 Q During that time, what are some of the 8 assignments you have had with the Portland Police 9 Bureau? 10 A I worked on the Gang Enforcement Team for 11 14 years, I think. Prior to that, I worked the street 12 on my rotational basis. After that, I went back to the 13 street, worked downtown in the Old Town area for two, 14 two-and-a-half years, right around there. 15 And for the last year-and-a-half, I have 16 been assigned to the Transit Division. And along with 17 those duties, I am also assigned to the Special 18 Emergency Reaction Team, SERT, or another acronym for 19 SWAT. And I have been on that since 2000. 20 Q And you have received special training, in 21 addition to your basic training, in the use of firearms, 22 and you are a firearms instructor? 23 A Correct. 24 Q And do you go through training periodically 25 to update your thinking on defensive tactics and
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 180 1 responses to emergency type situations? 2 A Yeah. Twofold with that. One is we recert 3 yearly in-service that the whole bureau gets. It's one 4 week out of the year, and they put you through scenarios 5 and update you on legal terms, and justifications, and 6 how we can resolve issues. 7 And along with that on the SERT Team, we 8 train two days every other week. One of those days is 9 known as firearms day, and the other day is a 10 scenario-based day. So that happens every other week. 11 And for a week out of the year, the SERT 12 Team goes over to Camp Rilea over at the Oregon Coast, 13 and does a full week of training. And that's 14 scenario-based and firearms, also. 15 Q So directing your attention to 16 November 6th, 2015, it was a Friday, and the incident 17 you responded to in Northwest Portland. 18 Was that going to be a workday for you as a 19 Tri-Met police officer? 20 A It was going to be an overtime shift for 21 me. The Orange Transit Line had just opened, and we 22 were doing shifts on there to make people feel more 23 comfortable on the MAX lines. So I was going to start 24 that shift, I believe, at 8:00 -- or 7:00 or 8:00 in the 25 morning, and work day shift there doing that.
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 181 1 Q When did you first become aware of a 2 situation involving a man with a gun in Northwest 3 Portland? 4 A Actually, I was coming into work. I was 5 down on Naito Avenue. And I listen to the AM radio on 6 my way into work, to find out the news overnight. And 7 they said that the Portland SERT team was going to be 8 activated for a person up in Northwest Portland. 9 Within 15 seconds of that, my pager went 10 off, and alerted me that I was supposed to respond to 11 the area of 22nd -- or 23rd and Johnson for an armed 12 suicidal subject, and report there, and listen to SHE 1 13 and respond Code 2 for us. 14 Q What does that mean, Code 2? 15 A Code 2 for us are -- normally when we 16 respond to something, it will be Code 3, that's lights 17 and sirens the whole way there. Code 1 is drive with 18 the normal flow of traffic. Code 2 means you can use 19 your lights and sirens at a distance from the location, 20 and you are normally doing that because something is 21 happening at the situation where they would like you to 22 come in quieter, to not aggravate the situation that is 23 going on at that time. 24 Q And as you are going to the scene, are you 25 getting any additional information, other than what you
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 182 1 mentioned? 2 A They put out -- we listen to SHE 1 which is 3 our radio net, which is separate from the Central 4 Downtown net that the incident is taking place on. On 5 there is our Crisis Negotiating Team and us. It allows 6 us to talk without interrupting everybody else. 7 On that net the dispatcher came out and 8 said that they received information from there that they 9 didn't have a good perimeter on the location at that 10 point; it was a male white, armed with a .380 handgun. 11 And what else, he mentioned that it was going to be a 12 black day. 13 And that was the information I was getting 14 on my way there. I was fairly close, so from the time I 15 got the call-out until I got there, it was less than 16 three or four minutes, I would guess. 17 Q And when you arrived at that location in 18 Northwest Portland, did you meet with anyone else to get 19 any additional information on the situation, and what 20 the plan was? 21 A Initially, I pulled up there, and the first 22 person I came in contact with was Assistant Chief Day. 23 Assistant Chief Day told me that he had been monitoring 24 the radio on this for a while. He had heard the 25 on-scene supervisors request a CNT, consult for this.
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 183 1 He felt that it probably rises to the level of needing 2 the SERT Team activated in conjunction to this. 3 Q CNT? 4 A Crisis Negotiation Team. We work in 5 conjunction with them to try and resolve situations 6 safely and peacefully. They bring negotiators to the 7 table, and we bring resources to help them communicate 8 with people, and handle the situation tactically should 9 the situation arise to that. 10 Q And so having that information, what did 11 you do? 12 A At that point I go and I gear up. I put on 13 my gear to deploy. After I finish that, I can see that 14 our critical incident commander, who is in charge of the 15 overall tactics for this, has shown up, Captain 16 Marshman, and Lieutenant Fender -- I see that they 17 are -- have arrived on scene. I walk over to them, and 18 they are standing there with Sergeant Dunbar, who is 19 Central Precinct acting sergeant that day. 20 She proceeds to tell us that there is a 21 gentleman in the flat parking lot, open-air parking lot 22 at Northwest 22nd, Kearney to Lovejoy. She said he's 23 refused to put down the gun. They are trying to 24 communicate with him, with no response. 25 At this point, she brings up a Google map
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 184 1 of the area, shows us where we are, where the gentleman 2 is, and points out where some officers are located. 3 They are currently trying to negotiate with him. And 4 when she does that, she points to a parking structure 5 that sits on the west side of 22nd, between Kearney and 6 Lovejoy. She also points to some officers that are on 7 the corner of 22 and Kearney. 8 Q And on this screen is the image that was 9 made after the fact, using the 3-D digital imager. This 10 item here, I think, was previously identified by 11 Detective Kammerer as being some of your equipment? 12 A That is my gas bag. 13 Q Did you leave that at the scene after the 14 incident? 15 A Yes. 16 Q So let me move out a little bit here, but 17 does this look familiar to you as the parking structure 18 where you responded with Officer Corno? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And so as we move the image, as look out to 21 the east across what would be, I believe, Northwest 22 22nd -- 23 A Correct. 24 Q -- is this the view that you are looking 25 out at and the man with the handgun?
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 185 1 A Correct. I would be positioned to the left 2 of the gas bag that you saw. 3 Q In your position? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And we're going to swing around for a 360 6 view. 7 What was happening, if you could tell the 8 Grand Jury, when you arrived at the parking structure in 9 terms of what you saw? 10 A I arrived at the parking structure. As 11 this picture flips around here, you will see a concrete 12 pillar that is behind my gas bag. Officer Corno and I 13 were the first two there. We got permission to deploy. 14 We walked into this area. There was an officer standing 15 behind that pillar right there. We walked up there, I 16 don't remember who that was. He gave us kind of a 17 rundown. 18 Q Were you referencing this pillar here? 19 A Yes. He said -- I couldn't see. We were 20 just far enough back that I couldn't see the subject at 21 that point, over that wall you are looking at there. He 22 says that the gentleman is out in the parking lot, he's 23 armed with a handgun; however, the handgun is currently 24 in his back pocket at that point. 25 Q What did you think when you found out that
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 186 1 the gun was in his back pocket? 2 A I am thinking that's good. I would rather 3 nobody be armed. But the fact that it's in his back 4 pocket means we have a chance to talk to him. The gun 5 doesn't go off in a back pocket unless it's a total 6 accident. So that's a good thing, in my opinion. I am 7 very happy to hear that at that point. 8 I see that -- the perspective is a little 9 off there, but directly out in front of that pole there, 10 there was an officer with an AR rifle up over the top of 11 that concrete wall there, looking in the direction of 12 where I perceived that the gentleman was at that point. 13 And Officers Burley and Sharp were to the 14 left of my gas bag. You can kind of see the crack in 15 the wall there, to the left of my gas back. They were 16 to the left of that. And they are trying to negotiate 17 with the person over the wall. I can hear them just 18 trying to engage him in some kind of meaningful 19 conversation. It doesn't appear they are getting any 20 response from him at that point. 21 So at that point, Officer Corno, who is our 22 assistant team leader, he recommends that I go up and 23 relieve the uniform officer that is on the top of that 24 wall. So I do that at that point. 25 Q And why is that done?
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 187 1 A Basically the City puts thousands of hours 2 of training into us for these kinds of situations. And 3 I would expect that they would want us there in these 4 highly volatile situations, because we have a ton of 5 experience and training with that. 6 And also, I am on the net with all the 7 other SERT Team members that are arriving, and I know 8 more of the resources that they have available to them. 9 So we're on a different net. I communicate with Officer 10 Forsythe and the other officers that are coming, and 11 tell them what I am seeing so they can make a 12 determination as to what kind of equipment they need to 13 bring up. 14 Some of those items might include our Bear 15 Cat, or Bear truck. And that's an armored vehicle, big 16 heavy truck. It can stop up to .50 caliber bullets, or 17 hand-held shields that we can carry around with us to 18 try and protect people if they are exposed. Any less 19 lethal options that they can have. I can communicate 20 that if I keep eyes on, I can see what is going on out 21 in that area. 22 Q So when you take over, then, and replace 23 the patrol officer who is there, what do you see 24 happening then? 25 A At that point, I kind of duck -- rather
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 188 1 than being up over the top of that wall, I duck down to 2 the left of that crack in the wall there to limit my 3 exposure to the gentleman out there. 4 And what I am seeing when I look out 5 between that crack, I can see, off to the right, I can 6 see three or four houses, on what would be Kearney. I 7 can see what appears to be an active job site that would 8 be on the corner of 21st and Kearney. 9 Straight behind my line of sight with the 10 gentleman that is out in the parking lot at that point, 11 I can see the back of a building, some kind of business 12 to the left or northeast corner. I can see a fence. I 13 know from working the area that there's a gas station 14 there on the other side of that fence. And when I look 15 to my left, or north. I can see a brick building with a 16 bunch of windows in it that I know is the hospital. 17 All of these things have me very concerned. 18 It's 7:00 a.m. I am reporting to work. I know other 19 people are coming to work in the morning. It's a 20 hospital. I expect there's going to be doctors and 21 patients coming in, people for surgeries, nurses. 22 There's going to be people leaving for work. 23 And from earlier in this, they didn't have 24 a real good perimeter on it, so I didn't know what 25 the -- what the chances are if this gentleman starts to
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 189 1 go in any direction, if we were going to be able to stop 2 him from doing that. 3 Q So do you see him, at that point, with the 4 gun, or not? 5 A At this point, he's out in the lot. I am 6 guessing he's 20 yards away from us. He's on the east 7 side of the sidewalk, out in the parking lot. No gun. 8 He's standing out in the parking lot. He's facing our 9 direction, so he's facing west. 10 Within a minute or less of that he starts 11 walking back to the west, towards our location. He 12 reaches in his back pocket, and he pulls out what I 13 perceive and think is a silver revolver handgun. 14 Burley is next to me. He's still trying to 15 engage this person in conversation, and the only way he 16 can do that is put his head up over the wall at this 17 point and that concerns me greatly at that point, 18 because now the gentleman is armed. It's in his hand. 19 I mean he was armed before in his pocket, but now it's 20 actually in his hand. I don't know what his intentions 21 are. He's obviously in some state of mental crisis. I 22 don't know what his thinking is at that point. 23 Q From your perspective, could you tell 24 whether the man with the gun seemed to be responding to 25 Sergeant Burley's efforts to communicate with him?
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 190 1 A He didn't at all. As he walks back towards 2 us he puts -- from my perspective, he puts the gun up to 3 his head. And not in the traditional sense that you 4 would think, you are putting the muzzle up to your head 5 like you are going to commit suicide or something. But 6 he puts it up flat against his head, so the muzzle is 7 pointing parallel to his head up in the air at that 8 point, or slightly back. 9 And when Burley would try and talk to him, 10 he would cover his other ear. And actually, at first I 11 thought maybe he had a cell phone in his other hand, 12 because of the way he was covering it looked like he was 13 just covering up ambient noise. 14 Shortly thereafter, as he walks back, he 15 puts the gun hand back down toward his side. And I can 16 see clearly there's no phone in the other hand. And 17 Burley was trying to engage this gentleman in 18 conversation over the top of the wall. And not every 19 time, but most times when he would do it, the gentleman 20 would put his hands up over his ears, like he didn't 21 want to hear what he had to say. 22 I remember at one point Burley asked him, 23 does it look like he's talking? At first I said no, but 24 when I really looked close, it appeared to me that his 25 lips were moving but nothing audible was coming out,
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 191 1 more like you are talking to yourself or mumbling to 2 yourself, very slight movement in the lips. 3 Q At some point, did the man with the gun 4 fire a round? 5 A Yes. So -- 6 Q Go ahead and describe that. 7 A So he walked back out to the street. He 8 sat there for a minute or two. He turned around, away 9 from us, walked back out in the parking lot about the 10 area where I first saw him. Gun up to the side of his 11 head, flat against his head, like I talked about 12 earlier, and he puts the gun down to his side, takes the 13 other hand down, and shoots a round down into the 14 ground, somewhere within two or three feet of him, more 15 in a downward trajectory into the ground, from my 16 perspective. 17 Q And did you think at that point, based on 18 your training and experience, that it would be 19 appropriate to use deadly force against him? 20 A At that point, I didn't feel it was. He's 21 shooting the gun down into the ground, not in the 22 direction of anybody else. I just -- I didn't feel at 23 that point that that was time to use deadly force. 24 Q Did it change anything for you in terms of 25 your apprehension of danger in the situation from where
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 192 1 it had been, when you were told the gun was in his 2 pocket? 3 A In my mind, everything is changed now. I 4 don't know what he's thinking. Is he shooting the round 5 in the ground? Is he doing that to get up courage to 6 shoot at himself, at that point? Is he doing it to get 7 up courage to shoot at us? Is he doing that to get up 8 courage to shoot at somebody else in the area? 9 And prior to the first round going off, and 10 it was in that position looking at him and talking about 11 it, I had actually seen a citizen walking down the west 12 sidewalk of Johnson, out of the area. And I don't know 13 where she came from. 14 So in my mind, I am thinking, there's this 15 perimeter, we still don't have it secure. People can 16 still get into this or out of this for work. So in my 17 mind, very concerned about everybody that was out there. 18 Q Obviously, I don't know if this was a 19 thought you had or not, if there had been any question 20 that it was a replica firearm, or that it wasn't loaded, 21 obviously, that became clear at that point, that it was 22 a fully functional handgun, and not a pellet gun or 23 something else? 24 A Correct. 25 Q So after that first round went off, what do
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 193 1 you see happen next, because we understand that he fires 2 a second round? 3 A So he turns around after he fires the first 4 one, walks back in our direction. Burley is still up 5 over the top of the wall, trying to get this guy -- we 6 can get you help. We can help you out. Just trying to 7 elicit some response from this gentleman. 8 He walks back out to the road where there's 9 a telephone pole and a tree there, and he stands there 10 for a minute. And I remember at one point somewhere he 11 looks up at the sky, and I thought maybe he heard a 12 helicopter. He didn't, because I talked to Burley about 13 that, and neither of us heard anything. 14 And then he sits down on the curb. And he 15 sits there for a couple minutes. Burley is still trying 16 to engage him in conversation. He eventually -- and the 17 best way to say it, very slowly gets up from that 18 position, turns and walks back out towards the parking 19 lot where he was when I initially saw him, and then when 20 the shot was fired, and he shoots off another round into 21 the ground, probably the same diameter round in front of 22 him, couple feet out in front of him, down at the 23 ground. 24 And then turns, and walks back towards us 25 at that point. He comes back out towards the street.
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 194 1 Burley is still trying to talk to him. And he's got the 2 gun -- again, when Burley is trying to talk to him, he's 3 got the gun up flat against his head. And he walks in 4 like a slight circle when he's out in the road at this 5 point. And I am guessing he's 15, 18 yards from us. 6 And I remember as he turned, he stopped for 7 a second, and the barrel of the gun was pointed right 8 back at Burley and I. And it wasn't that he was aiming 9 the gun at us. It was just by the nature of how it was 10 lying against his head, and as he turns. 11 And at that point I am thinking -- I 12 remember I am in a parking structure, but I can't 13 remember what is above me. So I got on the air, and I 14 asked if it was an office building above us, or more 15 parking structure. And somebody got on the air and said 16 that it was an office building. I thought they said it 17 was part of the hospital, that there were people in 18 there, and they were trying to get them evacuated but it 19 wasn't done yet. 20 I know from active shooter trainings, I 21 know that a common thing that people do when there's a 22 shooting close to a building is that they tell people to 23 shelter in place, which would put them in the office, 24 and all these windows that are up there. 25 And I am also thinking in my mind, it's
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 195 1 human nature, you have a lot of police activity, you 2 have possibly heard these shots, so you are going to go 3 up and look out these windows. Maybe not the smartest 4 thing to do, but it's part of human nature. So I am 5 very concerned. 6 So I am just very concerned about all the 7 officers that are here, Officer Corno, the officers down 8 to my -- that are behind me to my right. Officer Burley 9 is trying to engage him in conversation, and all of 10 these potential people or citizens that are in the 11 building above me, or around me. 12 He turns around, and he faces us. He sits 13 down on the curb again, and the way he was sitting his 14 feet were apart and his knees were above his -- he's 15 sitting on the curb, so his knees are above his 16 buttocks. And the gun is up. Burley is still trying to 17 talk to him, and the gun is up, flat against his head 18 again, and the other hand is up. 19 He takes the gun and the hand down, and he 20 rests them on his knees, and he kind of puts his head 21 down. He's looking down at the ground, between his 22 legs, and he sits there for, seems like 15 seconds or 23 so. And then fast, the gun just -- the gun just comes 24 up, and I see flash from the muzzle. I see the smoke 25 from the muzzle, and I hear the pop from the gun.
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 196 1 And I immediately, as he does that, I can't 2 tell if he's getting up, but his whole body elongates. 3 He gets real tall. I don't know if he's trying to stand 4 up or not. 5 But at that point I am in fear for myself, 6 and the people that I have described to you earlier in 7 this building, the officers that are around me. I don't 8 know who is still behind me, and I fire three rapid 9 succession shots, pop, pop, pop. 10 And I shoot for his chest and stomach area. 11 It's the biggest amount of body mass that I can shoot at 12 to try and end this as quickly as possible. I don't 13 want my rounds to potentially miss, and go and injure 14 somebody else in the city. I want to get this over as 15 quickly as I can, and as safely as I can. 16 Q And is that where you are trained to shoot 17 in a situation like this? 18 A Correct. 19 Q All right. When you made the decision to 20 fire, where did you perceive that he was pointing the 21 barrel of his gun when he fired? 22 A The barrel came back in the direction of 23 where Officers Corno, Burley, and myself all were 24 along -- my perception was it was on our parking 25 structure on that level. It wasn't above us. It could
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 197 1 have been, but my perception was it was up in our 2 direction. 3 Q And did you believe that Officer Burley was 4 safe and protected at that time? 5 A He had been -- I wasn't looking at him for 6 every second, so I don't know when his head is up and 7 down. I know he's constantly trying to get over the top 8 of that and have some kind of communication with him. 9 Burley, as far as I remember, never had a 10 handgun or anything to address the situation himself. 11 He's there as a voice to try and talk to this person, 12 get them the help that they need, at this point. 13 Q After you made the decision to fire your 14 weapon, why did you stop shooting? 15 A The gentleman slouched back on to the curb, 16 or area where the tree and the telephone pole were. He 17 wasn't firing anymore. I didn't perceive him to be an 18 immediate threat to me at that point. 19 Q And are you trained to shoot a particular 20 number of times, or a specific number of times in a 21 situation like this? 22 A No. You are going to shoot long enough to 23 make the threat go away. And for myself at that point, 24 the perceived threat that I had, had gone away. He was 25 no longer firing at us, and he had slouched back. He
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 198 1 didn't appear to be looking in my direction, or anybody 2 else's direction at that point. 3 Q Since this event in November the 6th, have 4 you thought that any different option would have been 5 available in this situation? 6 A No. And I have ran over it numerous times. 7 We just needed him to communicate with us so we could 8 get him the help he needed. The hospital was there, 9 there was help a couple hundred feet away. We just 10 needed him to put down the gun so we could get him into 11 the hospital at that point and get him help. 12 MR. REES: Any questions from the Grand 13 Jury? 14 (No response.) 15 MR. REES: Seeing no questions, we will 16 excuse you, Officer Daul. And thank you very much. 17 (Proceedings concluded at 11:05 a.m.) 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Cook Court Reporting, Inc. - (503) 537-0339 www.cookcourtreporting.com Page 199 1 STATE OF OREGON ) 2 )ss 3 COUNTY OF YAMHILL) 4 5 I, Deborah L. Cook, RPR, Certified Shorthand 6 Reporter in and for the State of Oregon, hereby 7 certify that at said time and place I reported in 8 stenotype all testimony adduced and other oral 9 proceedings had in the foregoing hearing; that 10 thereafter my notes were transcribed by computer-aided 11 transcription by me personally; and that the foregoing 12 transcript contains a full, true and correct record of 13 such testimony adduced and other oral proceedings had, 14 and of the whole thereof. 15 Witness my hand and seal at Dundee, Oregon, 16 this 21st day of December, 2015. 17 18 19 20 DEBORAH L. COOK, RPR Certified Shorthand Reporter 21 OREGON CSR #04-0389 CALIFORNIA CSR #12886 22 WASHINGTON CSR #2992 23 24 25
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brick 17:10 52:16 24:23 73:9 155:10 162:18 164:1,5,8 42:18 53:4 59:21 104:9 112:4 115:2 158:21,22 188:15 161:25 162:13 164:8,8,10,14,16 62:5 75:3 78:1,8 118:24 127:1 Bridge 65:7 164:12 187:16 167:6 187:16 109:17,17 110:3 136:11 142:16 brief 35:3,5 bunch 94:19,19 calibrations 53:6 115:4 118:1,4 160:1 177:22 bright 96:25 97:6 133:23 188:16 CALIFORNIA 121:25 122:1,3,4 184:16 115:25 bureau 7:14 8:9 199:21 122:8,10 150:19 bizarre 35:10,22 bring 16:3 40:18 11:12,21 13:5 call 5:6,7,12,16,23 171:12 black 6:19 46:11,14 91:21 120:5 148:6 30:7 37:2 63:18 5:24 6:8 9:5 13:4 cared 95:2 46:15,16 60:5 154:14 157:18 63:25 64:9 80:3 33:7 37:25 39:16 career 133:25 74:2 116:3 182:12 183:6,7 187:13 105:16 133:22 41:25 62:8,8 carry 39:19 187:17 blame 27:23 bringing 116:15 134:1 157:14,22 65:23 66:3,6,8,9 cars 52:21 71:18 blatantly 147:1 brings 7:20 11:10 161:7 179:9 180:3 66:10,13,17,18 cartridge 22:17 bleed 99:1 124:14 151:19 bureau's 104:18 67:5 68:3 81:24 163:9 166:9 bleeding 96:25 99:3 152:25 183:25 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13:23 14:21 15:19 Chad 15:7 125:9 Chicago 105:8,10 clicking 112:9 66:12 72:24 80:17 22:6 24:16,24 136:13 139:19,19 chief 14:8 85:22 Clifford 30:12 93:1 81:3 83:15 86:2 27:14 31:1,8 139:23 140:12,24 100:12 182:22,23 93:9 92:17 102:8 45:25 53:5 90:12 141:2,2 144:19,20 chiefs 83:23 clinic 29:14 107:10 109:5 99:18,24 148:10 145:2,4,6,17 choose 47:5 clinical 93:22 94:2 111:9 112:24 160:22 161:6,23 150:8 154:8,17 chose 42:14,14,18 clinician 107:24 114:13 115:13 162:19 163:8 155:15,17,20 Chris 138:22,23 119:5 120:9 116:22 119:18,25 165:17 166:22 171:2,8 174:23 139:3,8 140:12 clinicians 107:8 125:9,10 127:17 167:10 168:1,9 178:15,24 144:11 146:5,9,16 119:10,12,14,23 129:10 132:15 cases 2:24 3:2 95:4 Chad's 154:8 153:15 171:3 120:5 135:7 140:7 99:14 100:4,5 chain 83:21 140:9 173:25 174:25 clinicians' 107:9 141:24 143:12 166:9 168:19,21 chair 104:8 160:1 175:1 clockwise 163:8 153:4 159:6 casing 22:18,19,24 chance 98:4 186:4 Christopher 104:1 close 6:12 7:18,22 165:13,14 175:17 casings 17:14 22:4 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177:6,10 185:12 point 9:8 11:18 184:4,6 portion 130:21 potential 50:21 185:15,18 19:19 26:2 31:3 poisoning 98:21 Portland 1:7,15,23 82:24 120:23 pillars 17:10 34:15 40:21 41:15 poking 130:6 2:12,18,18,21 140:22 195:10 150:22 43:17,18 44:16,21 pole 18:24 186:9 3:16,24 4:16,18 potentially 97:23 pin 21:18 22:16 46:1,2,24 47:9,21 193:9 197:16 4:18,25 5:3 6:2 123:8 127:19 23:7 51:9 52:18 53:9 police 2:11,15,18 7:14 11:12 16:22 140:21 174:4 pistol 22:7,9 60:2,4 53:21 55:10 58:13 2:21 4:9 5:3,12,16 29:16 32:12 37:2 175:11 176:19 placard 18:9,10 59:1 66:1 67:19 6:1 7:14 8:8 11:2 37:5 39:16 50:11 196:13 20:1,8,9,10 23:19 75:15 77:20,22,24 11:2,21 13:4,12 63:17,25 64:8,12 pound 165:11 161:13 166:16 77:25 81:25 82:11 13:16,17,17,20,25 65:12,13 66:4,9 pounds 165:17 167:9 83:22 84:6 85:14 14:13 15:9 18:10 83:7 93:16 103:1 powder 22:18,23 placards 25:7 86:21 88:15,23 21:2 31:9 33:1,7 104:17 105:5,8 PPB 1:5 149:17 90:17 92:6 112:19 34:12 37:2,16 106:1,1,7,11 practice 108:25 place 3:9,15 8:8 9:1 113:8 115:18 39:16 40:2,22 109:12 133:9 112:14 13:6 15:13 23:23 116:13 118:24 41:20 42:5,5,8,19 134:21 135:19 precinct 13:19 17:1 27:22 32:9 42:16 122:8 123:10 42:24 43:11,25 136:3,19 141:14 64:15,19,24 65:2 73:13 74:17,19 124:5 127:7,15 44:8 45:1 46:13 160:10,15 161:7 65:2,3,8 76:20 86:3 91:20,24 130:10 137:10 46:15 48:18,22 167:5 169:17,24 80:18,18 84:17 94:13 106:25 143:25 144:6 49:1 53:25 54:16 179:2,8 180:17 86:1 135:9,17 129:15 131:16 145:16 146:8 55:6 56:2,25 58:1 181:3,7,8 182:18 136:3 137:23 140:8 144:19 147:23 152:15,16 59:14 61:22 63:18 pose 73:3 138:3 183:19 152:4 154:5 152:18,18 153:24 63:25 64:8 69:15 posing 173:10 precincts 72:24 173:23,24 182:4 154:19 156:24 69:22 76:18 77:10 position 8:2 10:10 80:16 194:23 199:7 158:4 165:14 80:3 83:23 87:1 23:25 24:5 37:1 precipitate 147:9 placed 5:6,23 74:12 167:7 175:17 101:2,3,4,11,18 54:13 74:10 84:25 175:11 108:11 176:8 177:14 101:20 102:3,10 87:12 92:6 112:5 precipitating 102:2 places 106:10 182:10 183:12,25 104:18,22,23,24 136:23,25 142:21 174:4 placing 6:13 185:21,24 186:7 105:16 106:21 143:5 145:17 precipitator 102:7 plan 11:9 140:7 186:12,20,21,24 107:14 108:2,3,11 151:9 153:6 154:1 preempting 66:17 182:20 187:25 188:10 109:13,17,18 154:17 156:19 preemptive 152:24 planned 46:18 189:3,5,17,17,22 115:13,15 120:1,7 165:6,12 185:3 173:20 planning 109:8 190:8,22 191:3,17 121:25 122:1,1,2 192:10 193:18 prepare 95:19 plastic 89:7 191:20,23 192:6 122:4 133:9,10,25 positioned 8:13 prescribed 103:17 plate 62:5 118:3 192:21 193:10,25 134:4 135:14 24:11,12 185:1 presence 48:18 plated 162:18 194:5,11 196:5 142:8 147:12 positioning 44:13 143:9 please 16:7 17:8 197:12,18,23 156:16 160:10 58:19,20 87:9 present 95:13 36:16 50:1 63:14 198:2,11 161:7 166:22 possession 24:20 125:21 133:13 75:25 76:25 pointed 9:15 18:16 167:5 168:7 101:14 147:10,11 153:18 104:13 133:4 74:10 79:17 169:17,18,19 possibility 126:11 presentation 20:3 159:25 160:8 127:12,18,19 172:3 179:1,4,8 possible 43:22 35:6 109:9,14 169:13 147:1,5,6 151:22 180:19 195:1 66:13,19 67:15 presented 6:7 plenty 19:17 46:2 155:23 194:7 police's 100:21 138:5 145:5 101:25 plinking-type pointing 31:6 78:2 policy 25:3 39:22 173:18 196:12 president 64:3 164:4 78:2 79:18,21 40:1 possibly 8:20 44:5 press 96:14 plugging 116:16 86:18 116:15 pool 13:20,21 67:6 68:5 72:4 pressure 22:22 Plus 96:24 128:4,15 175:19 pop 41:4 195:25 195:2 144:16 pocket 27:17 164:1 176:3 178:4 190:7 196:9,9,9 post 53:6 84:18 pretending 89:8 185:24 186:1,4,5 196:20 populated 3:20,21 85:20 86:6 87:25 pretty 3:25 38:23 189:12,19 192:2 points 153:4 184:2 3:23 138:13 91:24 95:8 132:2 53:20,20 55:4 Page 219
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