Vol. 813 Monday No. 33 12 July 2021

PARLIAMENTARYDEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDEROFBUSINESS

Questions Colombia: Human Rights ...... 1535 E-scooters ...... 1538 Steel Sector ...... 1541 United Kingdom–European Union Parliamentary Partnership Assembly ...... 1544 Hereditary Peers By-election Announcement...... 1547 Business of the House Motion to Agree...... 1548 Health Security (EU Exit) Regulations 2021 Coronavirus Act 2020 (Early Expiry) Regulations 2021 Motions to Approve...... 1548 Occupational Pension Schemes (Climate Change Governance and Reporting) Regulations 2021 Motion to Approve ...... 1548 Afghanistan Statement...... 1548 Environment Bill Committee (7th Day) ...... 1562

Grand Committee Medical Devices (Northern Ireland Protocol) Regulations 2021 Considered in Grand Committee ...... GC 415 Medical Devices (Coronavirus Test Device Approvals) (Amendment) Regulations 2021 Considered in Grand Committee ...... GC 427 Railway (Licensing of Railway Undertakings) (Amendment) Regulations 2021 Considered in Grand Committee ...... GC 440 Motor Fuel (Composition and Content) and the Biofuel (Labelling) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2021 Considered in Grand Committee ...... GC 448 Lords wishing to be supplied with these Daily Reports should give notice to this effect to the Printed Paper Office. No proofs of Daily Reports are provided. Corrections for the bound volume which Lords wish to suggest to the report of their speeches should be clearly indicated in a copy of the Daily Report, which, with the column numbers concerned shown on the front cover, should be sent to the Editor of Debates, House of Lords, within 14 days of the date of the Daily Report. This issue of the Official Report is also available on the Internet at https://hansard.parliament.uk/lords/2021-07-12

In Hybrid sittings, [V] after a Member’s name indicates that they contributed by video call.

The following abbreviations are used to show a Member’s party affiliation: Abbreviation Party/Group CB Cross Bench Con Conservative DUP Democratic Unionist Party GP Green Party Ind Lab Independent Labour Ind SD Independent Social Democrat Ind UU Independent Ulster Unionist Lab Labour Lab Co-op Labour and Co-operative Party LD Liberal Democrat LD Ind Liberal Democrat Independent Non-afl Non-affiliated PC Plaid Cymru UKIP UK Independence Party UUP Ulster Unionist Party

No party affiliation is given for Members serving the House in a formal capacity, the Lords spiritual, Members on leave of absence or Members who are otherwise disqualified from sitting in the House. © Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2021, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 1535 Arrangement of Business [12 JULY 2021] Colombia: Human Rights 1536

House of Lords What, if anything, will the Government do to hold the Colombian Government to their trade agreement Monday 12 July 2021 commitments, if their investigations show what is obvious to everyone? The House met in a hybrid proceeding. Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con) [V]: My Lords, I 1 pm agree with the noble Lord that it is important that we Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Chichester. hold countries to their human rights commitments. The actual trade agreement is, of course, yet to be ratified by Colombia. Nevertheless, through the direct Arrangement of Business engagement of both our embassy and my colleague, Announcement Minister Morton, who is responsible for our relations with Colombia, we have spoken directly with the 1.07 pm Colombian authorities, which are now pursuing a full The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith): My range of investigations into alleged misconduct by the Lords, the Hybrid Sitting of the House will now police. We welcome those steps that are being taken to begin. Some Members are here in the Chamber, others strengthen justice and accountability. are participating remotely, but all Members will be treated equally. I ask all Members to respect social Baroness Sanderson of Welton (Con): My Lords, it distancing and wear face coverings while in the Chamber is not just the reported killings that are cause for such except when speaking. If the capacity of the Chamber concern but the return of another familiar tactic from is exceeded, I will immediately adjourn the House. Colombia’s long civil conflict: disappearances. Human Oral Questions will now commence. Please can rights groups say that they have recorded up to 700 cases those asking supplementary questions keep them no in recent months. What representations have the UK longer than 30 seconds and confined to two points. I Government made to the Colombian authorities about ask that Ministers’ answers are also brief. this aspect of the protests? Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con) [V]: My Lords, I Colombia: Human Rights agree with the noble Baroness that it is important to Question focus specifically on the concerns that she has highlighted. We have made representations through ministerial 1.08 pm engagement and regularly do so through our embassy Asked by Lord Browne of Ladyton on the ground. We continue to support transitional justice within Colombia as a key part of our work. Toask Her Majesty’sGovernment what assessment they have made as to whether the reported killings Baroness Coussins (CB) [V]: My Lords, does the of civilian protestors in Colombia has put the Minister agree that the FTA was breached when the government of that country in breach of its Colombian police targeted clearly identified journalists commitments to respect human rights and democratic and human rights defenders in the recent protests, principles, as set out in the UK–Andean Countries seriously injuring many of them in an attempt to Trade Agreement of 15 May 2019. prevent them from reporting? What, if any, specific representations has the UK made to the Colombian The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Government about this,especially as we recently co-hosted Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con) the Global Conference for Media Freedom? [V]: My Lords, the United Kingdom remains concerned about reports of human rights violations in Colombia Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con) [V]: My Lords, and we have raised our concerns with the relevant the noble Baroness is correct. We have prioritised state actors since the protests began. We welcome the media freedom in our work globally and I can assure Colombian Government’s commitment to transparent her that we have raised a broad range of human rights investigations into allegations of excessive force and to abuses and concerns arising particularly from the recent take appropriate action against those responsible. The protests. In this regard, we welcome the concerted British Government attach real importance to the attempt to look into investigations and hold to account principles underpinning the UK-Andean Countries those who have committed these crimes. Trade Agreement and expect our partners to do the same. Baroness Goudie (Lab) [V]: My Lords, it is concerning to learn that 83 people recently suffered gender-based Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab) [V]: I thank the violence during a social protest in Colombia. One Minister for his reply. The UK’s 2019 continuity trade young woman who was arbitrarily detained was only agreement with Colombia commits the UK Government 17 and was allegedly raped by the police. She committed to respect human rights and democratic principles. suicide as a result. As the UK has taken the global The violence towards and killings of civilian protesters lead on prevention of conflict related to sexual violence, committed by the Colombian security forces were not what representation is it making to the Colombian only totally unacceptable but in violation of that trade Government on the alleged sexual assault? agreement. On 17 January, the Foreign Secretary told “The Andrew Marr Show” that Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con) [V]: My Lords, I “we shouldn’t be engaged in free-trade negotiations with countries will certainly follow up on the noble Baroness’s specific abusing human rights”. case and ensure that an appropriate representation is 1537 Colombia: Human Rights [LORDS] E-scooters 1538

[LORD AHMAD OF WIMBLEDON] since 2015 have given over £63 million of support made in my capacity as the Prime Minister’s special directly to Colombia through the Conflict, Stability representative on preventing sexual violence, particularly and Security Fund. in conflict—that means building post conflict, as well. This is a key priority for our Government. Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Con) [V]: Can the Minister comment on whether the Government joined Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab): My Lords, on a in the condemnation by the United Nations of the number of occasions, most recently in May, I have violent repression by the police of protests in Colombia raised with the Minister the question of Britain’s in May, which left at least 18 people dead and 87 training programme with the Colombian police. We missing? What other steps are being considered? have heard from the reports of the demonstrations Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con) [V]: My Lords, I about violence committed by the police, involving confirm to my noble friend that we have made between 26 and 44 deaths and, as my noble friend said, representations through discussions at the United Nations. sexual assault. Can the noble Lord explain exactly As I said, we continue to make representations through what measures we are taking to ensure that the Colombian my colleague, Minister Morton, and our ambassador security forces are held to account for their human to Colombia. rights abuses? Lord Bhatia (Non-Afl) [V]: My Lords, if reports of Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con) [V]: My Lords, the killings are correct, should we not cancel the trade the noble Lord is correct that he has raised this issue. agreement? We continue to ensure that our training of overseas law enforcement officers is fully supported by reviewing Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con) [V]: My Lords, as all training initiatives and ensuring that human rights the noble Lord may recollect, the trade agreement has are at the forefront of direct engagement. The specific articles contained within it, Articles 1 and 8, 220 investigations that I have alluded to are specifically which ensure that human rights are upheld. We will into misconduct by the police. These cases are now continue, because Colombia is yet to ratify the trade open and we are monitoring and following their progress. agreement, to uphold that aspect of it. Equally, as we lend support to Colombia, it is important that we ensure improved trade and prosperity for all Colombians. Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB) [V]: My Lords, anyone who has travelled in Colombia knows that it is The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith): My both one of the most beautiful and one of the most Lords, all supplementary questions have been asked violent places on earth. Agencies such as Human and we now move to the next Question. Rights Watch have identified the lack of separation between the police and the military as contributing to the use of force and live ammunition to control protesters. E-scooters Does the Minister agree that one way we might attempt Question to use any influence that we have would be to push for 1.19 pm greater separation between these agencies? Asked by Baroness Ludford Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con) [V]: My Lords, I To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps agree with the noble Lord and will take that forward. I they are taking to tackle the illegal riding of e-scooters. agree with the premise that we need to see a clear demarcation in the responsibilities of the police. The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con) [V]: My Lords, enforcement of road traffic law and how available resources are deployed to Baroness Blower (Lab): My Lords, I refer to my tackle illegal riding of e-scooters is an operational interests as recorded in the register. A recent ruling matter for chief officers, according to local police from the transitional justice court named 10 Colombian plans. The Government will continue to support the army officers as responsible for murdering 120 civilians police by ensuring that they have the tools needed to and disappearing 24 in 2007-08. These cases relate to enforce road traffic legislation, including those related the so-called “false positives”: the Colombian state to electric scooters. stands accused of killing close to 6,500 civilians, dressing them as guerrillas, during the Uribe presidency. Given Baroness Ludford (LD): My Lords, this Government the hostility to the transitional justice court from claim to represent the party of law and order, and certain quarters in Colombia, can the Minister repeat certainly they often talk about crackdowns, but, when Britain’s support for this institution and welcome the it comes to e-scooters,they have allowed, even encouraged, positive engagement of former FARC commanders, de facto legalisation without the necessary legislation who have recognised their role in crimes during the to protect riders and the public. This has caused armed conflict? problems to escalate out of control in a wild west of lawlessness, where riders are terrorising pedestrians, Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con) [V]: My Lords, I especially those with disabilities and visual impairment. am happy to confirm the Colombian Government’s The Government have also failed to regulate the sale long-standing commitment to assist former guerrilla and use of private ones, which probably number in the fighters in their transition to civilian life following the hundreds of thousands. Why are this Government peace agreement. We remain committed to this and refusing to act on e-scooters and keep people safe? 1539 E-scooters [12 JULY 2021] E-scooters 1540

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con) [V]: My Lords, Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con) [V]: I can in terms of the concerns that the noble Baroness confirm to the noble and learned Lord that I was on expresses, I completely agree with her, which is why the streets of London on my bicycle on both Thursday trials have been rolled out over the country, which will and Friday and I have actually witnessed police seizing end in March of next year. In terms of what those these e-scooters, as referenced by the figures that I trials have yielded, the Metropolitan Police service has gave earlier. And, just to come back to my noble friend seized over 1,000 e-scooters in the last month. I also Lord Vaizey, I can tell him that 5 million kilometres of concur with the noble Baroness in her view about journeys have taken place since the trials began. vulnerable people, which is why rented scooters, which are legal, have horns that let people know that they are Baroness Randerson (LD): The Government have coming. let the problems associated with e-scooters escalate out of control. Retailers are not being held to their The Lord Bishop of Chichester: My Lords, e-scooters legal obligations and pilot schemes are so numerous represent one of the dangers to cyclists in ever-increasing that it is effectively back-door legalisation without any number using the cycle lanes. Will the Minister of the rules.Does the Minister accept that the Government consequently ensure that consideration of a ban of instead should have legislated a couple of years ago e-scooters might include consideration of a cycle lane with some basic, simple rules on minimum age, maximum code, like the Highway Code, for greater safety of users? speeds, licences and helmets? Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con) [V]: My Lords, Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con) [V]: My Lords, that is one of the things being suggested. As a cyclist it is probably worth saying that it is not out of control. myself, as I said when I answered the last Oral Question The statutory instrument for the trials was laid in June on this subject, it is quite terrifying for these things to 2020, and you can own a private e-scooter but you come up behind you. You cannot hear them, you cannot legally use one on the road. So the rules are cannot see them until they are upon you, and they go clear and I have gone through the figures for how really quite fast. So, at the end of the trial, I am sure many e-scooters have been seized. But I do not think that all those things will be taken into consideration. that there should be an outright ban on them. We should evaluate the trials as and when they finish Lord Vaizey of Didcot (Con) [V]: My Lords, I am a next year. big fan of e-scooters and am delighted that the Government are carrying out these trials. Does the Lord Shinkwin (Con): My Lords, the Minister referred Minister know how many miles have so far been to the end of the trials, but, as we have already heard, travelled on legal e-scooters hired under the Government’s for disabled people the unchallenged use of e-scooters pilot schemes, and is there any estimation of what on pavements is a nightmare that is happening now contribution they have made to reducing both congestion and needs to be addressed now.When will the Government and pollution in our cities? take responsibility for ensuring that the law is enforced and pedestrians protected? Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con) [V]: My Lords, somewhere I have the figures for how many miles have Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con) [V]: I thank been driven on them, but what is certain is that they my noble friend for his question, which he asked me a have reduced congestion. But the trials will be the few weeks ago when we had the previous Question. I perfect way to see that they can be used in a safe way. can inform him that DfT Ministers have held four round tables with groups representing vulnerable people. Lord St John of Bletso (CB): My Lords, the He is absolutely right that e-scooters can be extremely proliferation of privately owned e-scooters appears hazardous to people who are hard of sight or not swift out of control, with traffic police turning a blind eye on their feet. The last round table we had on this to measures of enforcement. What measures can be matter was last month. Clearly those groups have taken to avoid e-scooters being driven on pavements raised concerns about the trials and, when the trials or retrofitted to increase their speed, and to prohibit finish, we will be able to evaluate the framework for e-scooter drivers from carrying a passenger? the use of these scooters. Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con) [V]: My Lords, Lord Rosser (Lab): Police numbers are still considerably several measures can be taken. You can get a penalty lower today than they were in 2010, and on top of this, fine of £300 and six points on your licence, or ghost the population is higher than it was just over a decade licence, for uninsured use of these scooters, a £100 fine ago. Do the Government agree that, if police numbers and three to six points for no driving licence, and a were still at 2010 levels, the police would have more £50 fine for driving on a pavement. resources to stop people using e-scooters illegally, which would also be a greater deterrent to the illegal Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab): My Lords, the use of e-scooters? reality is that our streets are becoming a nightmare for the young, the old, the blind and the disabled. Will the Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con) [V]: The noble Home Secretary tell the Mayor of London that, although Lord will know that the Government remain on track—in it is an operational matter,some confiscation of e-scooters fact, ahead of track—to deliver the number of is not enough and zero tolerance should be imposed 20,000 more police, because we have recognised that on our pavements for e-scooters and bicycles? When the demands on the police are changing and therefore did the Minister last see a police presence on the that more police to tackle various types of crime are streets of London outside the precincts of Westminster? needed on our streets. 1541 E-scooters [LORDS] Steel Sector 1542

BaronessNeville-Rolfe(Con):MyLords,thecombination as a reducing agent requires considerable investment. of e-scooters and the new electronic bikes, both often It also requires protection from foreign competition ridden dangerously fast along our pavements, is a real by a stringent carbon tax. Are the Government prepared threat to the safety of pedestrians. They are also very to overcome their usual reluctance by providing funds nippy for criminal activity. What are the Government for this investment? Are they prepared to impose such proposing to do to regularise the position now, not a carbon tax on imported steel? next March? We really want action, not round tables. Lord Callanan (Con): We have supported the steel Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con) [V]: My noble sector extensively over the years and I outlined some friend has a point about the here and now. I said of the money that we have spent. The noble Viscount earlier that the police had in the last month seized will know that decisions on taxes are of course a matter 1,000 e-scooters that should not have been on the for the Chancellor. I am sure that if there are any streets—or indeed, as noble Lords have said, on actions, he will hear of them directly from the Chancellor. the pavement. They are in a different category from the e-bikes. You have to put some effort into propelling Baroness Redfern (Con) [V]:My Lords, among the e-bikes forward, whereas scooters are entirely self- Government’s aims to level up and on the net-zero propelling. agenda for the British economy, there is a true agenda for steel. The Government have also expressed a desire The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith): My to improve public procurement of steel. Will there be Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed. further proposals so that the tendering process for We now come to the third Oral Question. steelworks contractors includes requirements to provide supply chain plans, advertise steel supply opportunities, Steel Sector report on the origin of steel ultimately used and, Question finally, justify why they have not used UK-made steel? 1.29 pm Lord Callanan (Con): We are working hard to make Asked by Lord Allen of Kensington sure that UK producers of steel have the best possible chances of competing for and winning contracts across To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their all government procurement efforts. The joint industry- industrial strategy for the steel sector. BEIS Steel Procurement Taskforce,launched on 12 March, shows our willingness to support the sector and aims TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department to work with it to promote the unique selling points of forBusiness,EnergyandIndustrialStrategy(LordCallanan) UK steel. (Con): My Lords, the noble Lord will know that we recognise the importance of the steel sector to the UK Lord Grantchester (Lab) [V]:The Government’s recent economy and in supporting other domestic industries U-turn to bring forward emergency legislation to extend and local communities. Our broad action, led by the steel safeguard tariffs is good news, but this goes back steel council, to create a competitive, sustainable and to 2017, when the House first debated the Trade Bill. low-carbon future for the sector supports our plan for It is a mess of the Government’s own making. Can the growth, which succeeded the industrial strategy published Minister explain how the Trade Remedies Authority more than four years ago. will be urgently reformed to prevent more anguish and uncertainty for the steel sector as well as for other Lord Allen of Kensington (Lab) [V]: I thank the businesses and industries? Minister for that reply. I welcome the Government overturning the decision of the Trade Remedies Authority Lord Callanan (Con): I am pleased that the noble on the removal of safeguard tariffs. I fear that, if they Lord welcomed the decision that was taken with regard had not done this, the consequences for the industry to the recommendations of the Trade Remedies Authority. would have been severe. Another severe problem for Of course, we keep all these matters under constant our steel sector is that the energy costs applied to steel review but, as I said, we will continue to work with the production in the UK are far higher than those of our sector to see what new opportunities there are and foreign competitors. Will the Government look urgently how we can help it in future. at what we can do to reduce this competitive imbalance? Lord Oates (LD): Can the Minister tell the House Lord Callanan (Con): The noble Lord makes a very what plans the Government have to exploit the UK’s good point about the high energy costs. We have lead in the manufacture of the electrolysers used for provided more than £550 million in relief to the steel green hydrogen production—manufacturing which is sector since 2013 to make electricity costs more based in the great steel city of Sheffield—in order to competitive. Of course, we continue to keep the matter make the UK the global hub for green steel production? under review and to have discussions with the sector. Lord Callanan (Con): The noble Lord is quite right Viscount Hanworth (Lab): If Britain is to have an that hydrogen-based steel making is one of the many industrial future, it needs a domestic steel industry. It technological approaches we are looking at for the needs a low-carbon industry to replace one that is a sector’s future. We announced the £250 million clean large emitter of carbon dioxide—as are the foreign steel fund to support the UK steel sector to transition industries from which we have been importing increasing to low-carbon production, and we plan to establish quantities of steel. To create a low-carbon industry the net-zero hydrogen fund with £240 million of capital which employs electric arc furnaces and uses hydrogen co-investment to 2024. 1543 Steel Sector [12 JULY 2021] UK-EU Parliamentary Partnership 1544

Lord Udny-Lister (Con): My Lords, the steel industry UK industry is a core part of the Government’s plan is badly undercapitalised and needs investment, both for a green industrial revolution, which I am sure she in labour and capital, so that it can modernise. This will support. The industrial decarbonisation strategy has already been asked but, first, will my noble friend commits the Government to work with the steel council agree to look again at energy costs? Even with the on the implications of the Climate Change Committee’s government subsidy, they are still way above those of recommendation for UK-based steel makers to be our European—and certainly Far Eastern—competitors. carbon neutral by 2035. Secondly, will he look seriously at putting a tax on scrap metal, which would ensure that it stayed in this Lord Razzall (LD): My Lords, the Minister will country and was used in the newer electric arc furnaces, obviously be aware of the significant role of GFG in thereby making them viable? our steel industry. Have the Government permanently ruled out the provision of finance to GFG and its Lord Callanan (Con): My noble friend is right to plants? If this is only temporary, are the Government point to the problems for the sector. I mentioned in an investigating GFG and, if so, which departments are earlier answer that we have provided more than doing so and is the Minister confident that a conclusion £550 million in relief to the steel sector for its electricity will be reached shortly? costs but, of course, we keep these matters under constant review. We are aware of the problems that Lord Callanan (Con): Ultimately, it is of course for high electricity prices cause for the sector. On his the company to manage its commercial decisions for question on scrap, we want to ensure that the metals the future and to find a successful buyer, but we hope recycling market continues to work effectively for all this company succeeds with its plans to refinance. stakeholders, whether that is for metals recycled by With regard to investigations, the noble Lord will steel producers or the cast metal sector. know that I cannot comment. Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale (Lab): My Lords, Baroness Wheatcroft (CB): My Lords, the UK steel I declare my membership of the Community trade industry has shrunk drastically over the last quarter of union, which represents steel-workers, and my former a century. In 2019, we produced just 7 million tonnes, role as Member of the Scottish Parliament for Motherwell which put us eighth in the league of EU producers. and Wishaw—a proud steel-making constituency, where Does the Minister have in mind a figure for what the the number of jobs today is a fraction of what it was in UK steel industry should be able to produce in order the past but where real quality steel is still made at the to fulfil the plan for growth? Will he also say whether Dalzell works. Therefore, I ask the Minister to confirm in providing subsidies for automobile manufacturers today, on behalf of the Government, that they will in the UK, there is a stipulation that they should buy work closely with the Scottish Government, who have their steel in the UK? a role in both procurement and decarbonisation. We need all levels of government in the UK to work Lord Callanan (Con): I understand the points that the together to ensure a strong future for the UK steel noble Baroness makes. My noble friend Lord Grimstone industry, in Scotland as well as the rest of the UK. is looking forward to considering the outputs of the procurement task force. However, we should recognise Lord Callanan (Con): I can certainly give the noble the importance of continuing to treat suppliers equally Lord the assurances that he is looking for: we will and fairly through open competition. Keeping our work with all partners, domestic and international, in procurement market open to international competition order to ensure that the UK steel sector has a viable ensures better value for taxpayers and for UK industry. future. Of course, we all know the challenges that it faces, but we are committed to doing what we can to Lord Bradshaw (LD) [V]: Can the Minister tell the help it. I mentioned the steel council, which was House what proportion of the steel being used now in reformed, with government, the industry and the trade HS2 construction is British steel, and whether any unions working together to produce a viable future for effort is being made to ensure that more British steel is the industry. It has met twice already and will meet used there? again further this month, chaired by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State. Lord Callanan (Con): For HS2, our 2021 steel procurement pipeline estimates that 1.95 million metric The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith): My tonnes of steel are required in phases 1 and 2. So far, Lords, all supplementary questions have now been all reported structural steel used has been UK-produced. asked, and we now come to the fourth Oral Question. Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP): In view of United Kingdom–European Union the climate emergency that we are all facing, the Swedish Government have pushed forward on their Parliamentary Partnership Assembly aims to be fossil fuel-free by 2024, using the hydrogen Question technology that somebody has just mentioned. How 1.41 pm many years behind are the British Government? Asked by Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town Lord Callanan (Con): I know that the noble Baroness To ask the Leader of the House when she expects feels passionately about these matters, and we share a motion to be brought before the House of Lords her enthusiasm for decarbonising the industrial sectors to establish and constitute the United Kingdom– as quickly as possible. She will know that decarbonising European Union Parliamentary Partnership Assembly. 1545 UK-EU Parliamentary Partnership[LORDS] UK-EU Parliamentary Partnership 1546

Earl Howe (Con): My Lords, it is a matter for as somehow undemocratic, when it would have much Parliament to consider the potential shape of the greater democratic powers and aspirations than our parliamentary partnership assembly,within the framework own? set out in the UK-EU trade and co-operation agreement. I understand that informal discussions involving Members Earl Howe (Con): My Lords, I do not accept what of both Houses are ongoing. the noble Baroness has said about the transparency that we seek to bring about. We are enthusiastic about Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab): The the setting up of the parliamentary partnership assembly, partnership assembly is an important organisation: it as I have said. We hope that the plans progress quickly. will be able to get information from and make In this House, we have my noble friend Lord Frost, recommendations to the Partnership Council, which is who regularly answers questions about the discussions where the EU and our Government will take decisions—so and negotiations that are currently proceeding. It is it is clearly of importance to this House. Could the not in any way our desire to have a process that lacks Minister assure us that he will do everything possible transparency. to make sure that it is set up before the Recess so that we can choose our representatives to it and it can get Baroness Hooper (Con) [V]: My Lords, until the going? Will he also do everything that he can to parliamentary partnership assembly is established, what facilitate a report back to this Chamber from the other channel of communication exists to inform our parliamentary assembly, once it is set up? Parliaments, in the UK and the European Parliament, of the decisions and recommendations of the Partnership Earl Howe (Con): My Lords, the Government are Council? Are there any means by which recommendations wholeheartedly in favour of dialogue between Parliament can be made to the Partnership Council—because we and the European Parliament, but, as the noble Baroness all know how long transitional periods can last? knows, the primary impetus from the UK side for establishing a parliamentary partnership assembly needs Earl Howe (Con): My Lords, it is open to my noble to come from both Houses of Parliament, which is friend and indeed any Member of this House to table why Members of both Houses are working on a a Parliamentary Question or a debate on a related proposal. Reporting back to the House by the PPA, subject, so I hope that my noble friend will feel able to once it is established, is something that the PPA itself elicit information that she needs from Ministers in that will need to decide upon in due course. way.

Lord Whitty (Lab) [V]: My Lords, the treaty itself The Earl of Kinnoull (CB) [V]: I know first-hand of specifies that these arrangements should be set up—this the warmth that the European Parliament feels towards is a responsibility for Government and not to be the parliamentary partnership assembly. In his capacity offloaded on to Parliament. Are the Government not both as Deputy Leader of the House and deputy encouraging the Leader of this House and the Leader leader of his party, could the Minister return that of the House of Commons, for example, to immediately warmth? Does he agree that there should be a strong engage with the European Parliament so that we have interparliamentary dimension as part of a successful a proper operation up and running by the time we mix in our new relationship with the European Union? return in the autumn? The Government cannot entirely dodge responsibility and shove it on to parliamentary Earl Howe (Con): My Lords, I thank the noble Earl procedures; it is in a treaty signed by the Prime Minister. for his work on behalf of the House in his capacity as chair of your Lordships’ European Affairs Select Earl Howe (Con): My Lords, as the noble Lord has Committee. He makes a very good point, and one said, the UK-EU trade and co-operation agreement—the thinks of other parliamentary assemblies that are perhaps TCA—makes explicit provision for a parliamentary analogous in some respects, such as the Parliamentary partnership assembly, but on a permissive basis. It is Assembly of the Council of Europe, the NATO implicit in the wording that this must be for the two Parliamentary Assembly and that of the OSCE, although Parliaments to establish. However, I can tell the noble their respective functions are of course different and Lord that, at the very first Partnership Council meeting, distinct. both the UK Government and the EU encouraged the establishment of the parliamentary partnership assembly. Lord Dubs (Lab) [V]: My Lords, I hope that I am At a government level, we look forward to seeing the mistaken in detecting a lack of enthusiasm on the final proposals from both Parliaments and to providing Minister’s part, uncharacteristic of him as that is. support to the process where we can. Does he agree that, in addition to the bodies that he mentioned, the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly Baroness Ludford (LD): My Lords, in its April might represent a good working model for the proposal resolution on the trade and co-operation agreement, of an EU parliamentary partnership assembly? Does the European Parliament said that it wanted the he agree that it has the following characteristics: it has parliamentary partnership assembly not only to monitor both Houses, it has all nations and regions and it is the full implementation of the agreement but also to resourced by the UK Parliament? Could we make make recommendations for improved co-operation. some progress on this, please? This Parliament currently has a serious scrutiny deficit with regard to the Government’s Brexit activities under Earl Howe (Con): My Lords, the noble Lord may be the TCA and the withdrawal agreement. Why is the aware that, in the intercameral discussions, the interests European Parliament often condemned in some quarters of your Lordships’ House are being represented by the 1547 UK-EU Parliamentary Partnership [12 JULY 2021] Afghanistan 1548 noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull. I feel sure that he will have Business of the House heard the recommendations of the noble Lord, Lord Motion to Agree Dubs, in this debate. 1.52 pm Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD): My Lords, when I Tabled by Baroness Evans of Bowes Park was an extremely junior Lords Minister in the Foreign That Standing Order 44 (No two stages of a Bill and Commonwealth Office during the coalition, I was to be taken on one day) be dispensed with on Thursday struck by the number of my Conservative colleagues 15 July to allow the Supply and Appropriation who had no personal contacts, even with conservative (Main Estimates) Bill to be taken through its remaining Members of other Parliaments across the European stages that day. Union. On a number of occasions, I was also struck by requests from Conservative Ministers asking me to Lord Ashton of Hyde (Con): My Lords, on behalf make informal contact with Ministers in other of my noble friend the Leader of the House, I beg to Governments because I knew them through the European move the Motion standing in her name on the Order liberal network. Do the Government recognise that Paper. informal cross-Parliament and cross-party contact in the very intricate relationship that we will have with Motion agreed. the European Union as an outside country would be extremely useful for us as a Parliament and for his Health Security (EU Exit) Government as a Government? Regulations 2021 Earl Howe (Con): My Lords, yes, indeed, and that is Coronavirus Act 2020 (Early Expiry) whythere is explicit provision in the trade and co-operation Regulations 2021 agreement for the setting up of a PPA. We were and remain enthusiastic for the kind of dialogue that the Motions to Approve noble Lord is so keen on. 1.52 pm Tabled by Lord Bethell Baroness Altmann (Con): My Lords, I am delighted to hear that my noble friend is keen to set up this body, That the draft Regulations laid before the House and I understand that the EU Parliament itself is on 21 April and 7 June be approved. ready. Surely, it is very important that this Parliament Relevant documents: 1st and 6th Reports from the get on with building mutually beneficial relationships Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. Considered in order to discuss important programmes such as in Grand Committee on 5 July. Horizon, Euratom and others, and issues that are relevant to both EU and UK citizens. Does he agree Lord Ashton of Hyde (Con): My Lords, on behalf that important ideas can be killed off by inaction? of my noble friend the Minister, I beg to move the Motions standing in his name on the Order Paper. Earl Howe (Con): I agree with my noble friend’s last Motions agreed. remark, but I can assure her that there is no inaction in this instance. I understand that a letter addressed Occupational Pension Schemes (Climate jointly to the Speaker of the House of Commons and the Lord Speaker was received last month from the Change Governance and Reporting) President of the European Parliament, David Maria Regulations 2021 Sassoli, confirming the recent decision of the Conference Motion to Approve of Presidents to establish the standing inter-parliamentary delegation of the European Parliament, so the process 1.52 pm is moving forwards at the European end as well. Tabled by Baroness Stedman-Scott That the draft Regulations laid before the House The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith): My on 8 June be approved. Considered in Grand Committee Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed. on 5 July. Lord Ashton of Hyde (Con): My Lords, on behalf Hereditary Peers By-election of my noble friend the Minister, I beg to move the Announcement Motion standing in her name on the Order Paper. 1.51 pm Motion agreed. The Clerk of the Parliaments announced the result of Afghanistan the by-election to elect a Labour hereditary Peer, in Statement place of Lord Rea, in accordance with Standing Order 9. The following Statement was made in the House of Only one candidate submitted a candidacy form, so Commons on Thursday 8 July. there was no requirement for a ballot to take place. “Twenty years ago, Osama bin Laden and the al-Qaeda Accordingly, Viscount Stansgate was certified as the leadership had turned Afghanistan into the epicentre successful candidate. A notice detailing the result is in of global terrorism, where, in the words of the author the Printed Paper Office and online. Ahmed Rashid, 1549 Afghanistan [LORDS] Afghanistan 1550

‘everything was available—training, funding, communications and seizing their chance to escape from illiteracy and poverty. inspiration.’ The Girls’ Education Challenge fund, established by It was in the mountain ranges of this sanctuary that the British Government, has helped more than a quarter al-Qaeda operated a formidable network of terrorist of a million Afghan girls into the classroom. training camps, drilling and indoctrinating thousands Our priority now must be to work alongside our of recruits. The terrorists who acquired their murderous Afghan and other partners to preserve those vital skills in Afghanistan or who were organised from its gains and the legacy of what has been achieved. Under soil dispersed across the world, inflicting bloodshed the Taliban, women were excluded from governance. and tragedy on three continents. They detonated truck Today, women hold more than a quarter of the seats in bombs in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam in 1998, killing Afghanistan’sParliament. Since 2002, more than 5 million 224 people. They attacked the USS ‘Cole’ in Aden in refugees have returned to Afghanistan under the UN’s 2000, killing 17 people, and then they perpetrated voluntary repatriation programme, aided by the fact their most heinous atrocity, claiming almost 3,000 lives that Britain, the UN and our Afghan and international in New York, Pennsylvania and Washington on partners have together cleared more than 8.4 million 11 September 2001. landmines or other unexploded munitions, restoring Today, thankfully, the situation is very different. 340,000 acres of land for productive use. In 2018, The training camps have been destroyed. What remains Herat province was declared clear of mines after 10 years of al-Qaeda’sleadership no longer resides in Afghanistan of painstaking work by the HALO Trust, based in and no terrorist attacks against western targets have Dumfriesshire, in a UK-funded programme. been mounted from Afghan soil since 2001. We should No one should doubt the gains of the past 20 years, never lose sight of those essential facts. but nor can we shrink from the hard reality of the On the morning after 11 September, few would situation today. The international military presence in have predicted that no more terrorist attacks on that Afghanistan was never intended to be permanent. We scale would be launched from Afghanistan in the next and our NATO allies were always going to withdraw 20 years. Those gains were achieved by an American-led our forces. The only question was when, and there military intervention mounted with overwhelming could never be a perfect moment. As long ago as 2014, international support, including troops from dozens the UK ceased all combat operations and brought the of countries, and the first and only invoking of NATO’s great majority of our troops home, reorienting our Article 5 security guarantee. We can take pride that role and our involvement. About 750 service personnel Britain was part of that effort from the beginning. stayed in Afghanistan under NATO’s mission to train and assist the country’s security forces. Last year, the Over the past two decades, 150,000 members of our US decided to withdraw its troops from Afghanistan, Armed Forces have served in Afghanistan, mainly in while the Taliban undertook to prevent Helmand province, which was, from 2006 onwards, a ‘any group or individual, including al-Qaeda, from using the soil focus of our operation. In the unforgiving desert of of Afghanistan to threaten the security of the United States and some of the world’s harshest terrain, and shoulder to its allies’. shoulder with the Afghan security forces, our service men and women sought to bring development and President Biden announced in April that all American stability. The House will join me in commending their forces would leave by September at the latest, and the achievements and paying heartfelt tribute to the 457 British NATO summit declared last month that the alliance’s service personnel who laid down their lives in Afghanistan military operations in Afghanistan were ‘coming to an to keep us safe. end’. As a result, all British troops assigned to NATO’s mission in Afghanistan are now returning home. For We always acted in the closest partnership with the obvious reasons, I will not disclose the timetable of Government and the people of Afghanistan, and we our departure, but I can tell the House that most of owe an immense debt to the translators and other our personnel have already left. locally employed staff who risked their lives alongside I hope that no one will leap to the false conclusion British forces. We have already helped more than that the withdrawal of our forces somehow means the 1,500 former Afghan staff and their families to begin end of Britain’s commitment to Afghanistan. We are new lives here in the UK. This year, we adopted a new not about to turn away, nor are we under any illusions policy offering priority relocation to the UK to any about the perils of today’s situation and what may lie current or former locally employed staff assessed to be ahead. We always knew that supporting Afghanistan under serious threat to their lives, together with their would be a generational undertaking, and we were close families. equally clear that the instruments in our hands would British diplomats and development experts worked change over time. Now we shall use every diplomatic alongside our allies to rebuild the country, opening and humanitarian lever to support Afghanistan’s schools and clinics where there had been none and development and stability. We will back the Afghan bringing safe water and electricity to millions of state with more than £100 million of development people for the first time. No one who lives in comfort, assistance this year and £58 million for the Afghan as we do, should underestimate the importance of national security and defence forces. their advances. We will of course continue to work alongside our InTaliban-ruledAfghanistan,virtuallynogirlsattended Afghan partners against the terrorist threat. Our diplomats school. They were, as a matter of declared policy, are doing everything they can to support a lasting driven from the classroom and forbidden from returning. peace settlement within Afghanistan, and they are Today,3.6 million girls are going to school in Afghanistan, working for regional stability, particularly by promoting 1551 Afghanistan [12 JULY 2021] Afghanistan 1552 better relations between Afghanistan and Pakistan. something about the Government’s assessment of the Here I commend General Carter, the Chief of the possible return of al-Qaeda. There is evidence that the Defence Staff, for his steadfast efforts. Taliban is making gains on the ground, and hostile I spoke to President Ghani on 17 June to assure states are now exploring options to fill any military him of the UK’s commitment, and I was moved once and diplomatic vacuum. Serious questions therefore again to hear his tribute to the British soldiers who remain about the future stability of the country. The strove so hard to give the Afghan people better lives. Prime Minister said in his Statement, which we have We must be realistic about our ability alone to influence not heard: the course of events. It will take combined efforts of “We are not about to turn away, nor are we under any illusions many nations, including Afghanistan’s neighbours, to about the perils of today’s situation and what may lie ahead.” help the Afghan people to build their future, but the Therefore, when the Prime Minister says that he will threat that brought us to Afghanistan in the first place use has been greatly diminished by the valour and by the “every diplomatic and humanitarian lever to support Afghanistan’s sacrifice of the Armed Forces of Britain and many development and stability”, other countries. We are safer because of everything what does that actually mean in practice on the ground? they did. Now, we must persevere alongside our friends Nobody wants to see British troops permanently for the same goal of a stable Afghanistan, but with stationed in Afghanistan, but we cannot simply just different tools in our hands. I commend this Statement walk away without seeking to ensure that it will not to the House.” lead to bloodier conflict and wider Taliban control. I do not know if the Minister heard the same BBC 1.53 pm interview as I did, in which General Sir Nick Carter Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab): My Lords, first, I outlined three possible, credible outcomes from am sure that the whole House would like to pay tribute withdrawal. The first is that the Afghan Government to the more than 150,000 UK personnel who have remain in power,supported by what is now a well-trained served in Afghanistan during the past 20 years. Their army. The second, and the most worrying, is that the bravery and professionalism have denied terrorists a country fractures and the Government collapse, which safe haven and helped Afghanistan build its institutions; would lead to the Taliban and others making advances. they have trained and advised Afghan forces and The third outcome, which he described as the most supported the advancement of the rights of women hopeful, is a political compromise, with talks, which and education for girls. chimes with the Government’s statement that there Those crucial advances were made with huge sacrifices: must be a peaceful and negotiated political settlement. 457 UK service men and women lost their lives, and How are our diplomats supporting that process? many thousands more and their families continue to Also, how are we supporting the Afghan Government? endure physical and mental injuries. More than Actions have to follow words, and, as we withdraw 70,000 Afghan civilians lost their lives, and while troops, we are also withdrawing financial support—unlike progress has been made, there remain huge challenges. the US, which is determined to boost development We owe a debt of gratitude to our Armed Forces and and military aid. We have to ask why. Afghanistan they should be proud of their work and achievements. remains one of the poorest countries in the world, but In his Statement—which I unfortunately did not our aid fund to the country is being cut by more than get to hear under our current arrangements—although £100 million. Why are we out of step with our allies on the Prime Minister confirmed that our presence in this? Have the Government assessed the security impact, Afghanistan as part of the international military effort as well as the social impact, of those cuts? was never intended to be permanent, he rightly conceded I am sure that many in this House were relieved to that we cannot hear the Prime Minister say that we owe an immense “shrink from the hard reality of the situation today.” debt to the translators and other locally employed Progress made is not necessarily the same as those staff who risked their lives alongside British forces. gains being secured and irreversible. Given the sacrifices The Minister will have heard that issue raised in your made, the Government need to be clear about their Lordships’ House many times over the past few years. ongoing commitment to Afghanistan. The risk to those staff and translators does not disappear Most of the UK personnel have already left, following when we leave: the likelihood is that it increases. Some the decision of the US Government in April that all staff have already been forced to flee to neighbouring US forces would leave in September, when, according countries, and some have ended up in refugee camps. to the NATO summit decision, operations were coming Last week, an FT editorial commented: “It is a to an end. Can the Leader of the House explain the matter of days, not months, that are critical for the engagement the UK Government had with the US interpreters and their families. The UK has opened up prior to that decision being taken? Did the Prime relocation schemes, but it is not enough.” Since the Minister suggest a different course of action? Did he Government launched the new Afghan relocation offer a different timescale, or did he discuss how we assistance policy in April, how many applications have could contribute to a lasting settlement? they received and how many have now been processed? Many in your Lordships’House with direct experience Will she give a commitment that that will be kept of military action engagement have concerns about under review and updated if the situation on the what happens next. We share those concerns, both for ground changes? the stability of Afghanistan and for the remaining The recent NATO summit communique said: potential security threat to the wider world, including “Withdrawing our troops does not mean ending our relationship the UK. It would be helpful if the Minister could say with Afghanistan. We will now open a new chapter.” 1553 Afghanistan [LORDS] Afghanistan 1554

[BARONESS SMITH OF BASILDON] and are there any circumstances in which they would I have commented previously from this Dispatch consider renewed military intervention to prevent it? Box that we want the UK to be a moral force for good The Taliban has claimed that it has changed and in the world. What we do next in relation to Afghanistan become less harsh, not least in its attitude towards will be a test of the Government’s commitment to that. women and girls,but such statements are widely mistrusted and not borne out by recent evidence. What diplomatic Lord Newby (LD): My Lords, when the UK first pressure is the UK seeking to bring to bear in association committed troops to Afghanistan in the immediate with its international allies and through the UN to aftermath of the September 11 attacks, the mission ensure that the Taliban keeps to its commitments? was clear. It was to destroy al-Qaeda’s ability to mount Today’s Statement reflects the fact that liberal any further international terrorist attacks from the interventionism, as expressed after the twin tower country. As the Statement makes clear, in this crucial bombings, cannot succeed unless there is a broad respect the mission has been a success. However, while consensus in the country where the intervention takes this is undoubtedly correct, it does not begin to give a place to follow the norms set by western liberal balanced picture of the state of Afghanistan as the democracies, but in countries where there is no history final British troops leave. of democracy and where there remain deep tribal and While the original mission was limited to destroying regional fissures, and where no such consensus emerges, al-Qaeda, it rapidly became something more ambitious: it is bound ultimately to fall short or fail. to replace the Taliban regime with one which more The challenge now is to support those in Afghanistan closely fitted western norms of behaviour, not least in who seek to promote democracy and tolerance and to respect of the treatment of women and girls. At one put as much pressure as possible short of military level, this too has been a success: there has been a intervention on the Taliban to moderate its policies. series of democratically elected Governments; there This will not be easy, but we owe it to the 457 British has been the education of millions of girls, and there military personnel who have died in Afghanistan, to has been a degree of economic development, particularly the thousands who still carry physical and mental in and around Kabul, but there has not been stability. scars and to those thousands of young Afghans, men The Taliban never went away, and it is now rapidly and women, who are desperate for a brighter, tolerant filling the vacuum left by the departed NATO forces. future for their country to do whatever we can to However depressing this situation is, the Statement is prevent a return to the horrors of the past. undoubtedly correct that the UK on its own is not in a position to fill the void created as American troops The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes return home. For the United Kingdom, the Statement Park) (Con): I thank the noble Lord and the noble reflects harsh reality. Baroness for their comments, and I wholeheartedly Anyone who has heard recent testament of young endorse their tributes to our brave personnel who professional women in Afghanistan who now fear for served in Afghanistan, to our NATO allies and, of not only their livelihoods but their lives or who sees course, to the people of Afghanistan. I also align the pathetic attempts of thousands in Afghanistan to myself with the comments made by both about the sell what little they have to leave the country before the need to make sure that we do not lose the gains. I Taliban returns cannot avoid the conclusion that completely accept that there are many challenges ahead, the broader aims of the international intervention in but progress, particularly in relation to civil society the country are under real threat. The Statement says and helping the development of the Afghan Government, that the UK will not turn away from Afghanistan and cannot be lost. I hope to cover some of those issues as that we will use I go through my remarks. “every diplomatic and humanitarian lever” The noble Baroness asked about discussions around to support the country. If true, this would be very the decision. My right honourable friend the Foreign welcome, but what is the commitment likely to mean Secretary spoke to US Secretary Blinken before the in practice? NATO announcement, and he has had numerous meetings Let us start with aid. The Government are dramatically since, as has the Defence Secretary, who met his cutting the amount of development aid they are giving counterparts from the US, France and Germany, and, the country, including a 70% reduction in programmes of course, the Prime Minister discussed Afghanistan for women and girls. This is harsh and perverse. Will directly with President Biden on 10 June and at the they now reverse these cuts, or are they in reality breaking NATO summit. There was also a lot of discussion their promise to maximise their humanitarian response? about it at the summit. After much dither and delay, the Government have The noble Baroness asked about the threat of al-Qaeda. recently allowed Afghan interpreters who have worked Weassess that al-Qaeda is now less active in Afghanistan with British forces to relocate directly to the UK. As than before 2001, but the group has not ceased to exist the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, pointed out, and as and remains a threat to both Afghanistan and the we heard in Questions in your Lordships’ House last international community, so Afghanistan remains a week, they are not automatically doing so for such counterterrorism priority. That is why we are working interpreters currently in third countries. Will they now closely with the US and NATO allies to ensure that we agree to do so not just as a matter of course but as a are able to protect our shared interest in tackling matter of conscience? terrorism, and we will continue to do that. American intelligence currently believes that, as The noble Lord and the noble Baroness asked things stand, Kabul could fall to the Taliban within six about the political process. We have provided crucial months. Do the Government share this assessment, capacity-building and technical advice to the Afghan 1555 Afghanistan [12 JULY 2021] Afghanistan 1556

Ministry for Peace and training for the Afghan negotiating new lives in the UK. The noble Lord is right that the team. Wehave enhanced the inclusivity of the negotiations ARAP process requires applicants to be in Afghanistan, through capacity-building support to the Afghan as they are likely to face the greatest risks, but those in negotiation team, women’s networks and civil society a third country seeking help to relocate can also organisations to help build women’s meaningful contact the Afghan Threat and Risk Evaluation Unit participation and representation, an issue touched on for advice, which they will be given, so they can also by both the noble Lord and the noble Baroness. We access support through that. We are significantly are working closely with international and regional accelerating the pace of relocations, in parallel with partners to further support peace efforts. The noble the military withdrawal, because we understand and Baroness and noble Lord are absolutely right, and we accept that the situation for some in the country has have been very clear about it, as have all our international changed. We will do all we can to continue to support allies, that any political settlement must protect the those people who wish to relocate to the United Kingdom. progress made in the country, particularly around protection for women and minority groups. The Deputy Speaker (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) The Prime Minister also spoke to President Ghani (Lab): My Lords, we come now to the 20 minutes on 17 June and underlined our commitment to supporting allocated for Back-Bench questions. I ask that questions Afghanistan to achieve a stable and democratic future and answers be brief so that we can hear from the following the withdrawal of troops. He gave his personal maximum number of speakers. support, and they resolved together to continue working 2.11 pm to counter the terrorist threat in Afghanistan. Those discussions will continue through international fora Baroness Sugg (Con): The Statement highlights some and directly with colleagues in the Afghanistan of the progress made on women’s participation and Government. girls’ education, but in recent weeks we have seen thousands of brave women protesting in the streets for I reassure the noble Baroness that we remain committed the freedoms that they know the Taliban will deny to working with the US, NATO allies and international them. I fear for their futures. What programmes focused partners to support the ongoing training and mentoring on women and girls will the UK Government support of the Afghan defence force, and we will continue to in the months and years ahead? provide financial and sustainment support until at least 2024. That is a commitment that we have already Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con): I thank my made. Obviously, we are extremely proud of the role noble friend for her continued passion on this issue we played during our 20 years in Afghanistan in and for continually holding our feet to the fire. I helping to build that defence force and the resilience it reassure her that we remain absolutely committed to has shown. It has been leading the security in Afghanistan supporting women and girls in Afghanistan. She will for the past six years, and it has been a privilege for us be pleased to know that there are now 3.6 million girls to work with it. enrolled in school, which is 27% of children enrolled. The noble Lord and the noble Baroness asked Since 2013, UK funding has enabled over one-quarter about our international support. We will continue to of a million girls in Afghanistan to receive an education. support Afghanistan with more than £100 million of We will continue to support programmes such as the development assistance this year; it will remain one of Girls’ Education Challenge fund, the second phase of the largest bilateral recipients of UK aid. We will which was launched in 2020 and supports more than continue to be a significant contributor to the Afghanistan 70,000 marginalised girls to access education. It is one Reconstruction Trust Fund, through which we will of the many programmes we will continue to support. support rural development, building resilience to climatic shocks and infrastructure development. We will also Lord Craig of Radley (CB) [V]: My Lords, the continue to work to consolidate the substantial Prime Minister referred more than once last Thursday development gains that have been delivered since 2001. to working with our friends on an “outside-in approach” Through our Afghanistan multiyear humanitarian to counterterrorism. Does that mean that we will have response programme, we will continue to provide urgent contingency plans with NATO allies, including offensive life-saving assistance and respond to immediate air operations, whether or not that is in direct support humanitarian need. of Afghan government forces? If not, what does outside-in The noble Lord rightly talked about the significant mean? progress that has been made in Afghanistan since Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con): I can tell the 2001, not only on women’s rights but on the rights of noble and gallant Lord that we will continue to support minority groups, media freedoms, freedom of expression and train Afghan institutions, including the national and access to education. It is imperative that we continue police and the national army, and strengthen their to work to protect this, and we will do so with our ability and the ability of the defence and security international allies and the Afghan Government to forces to counter security threats. That and other ensure this. capacity-building work is aimed at increasing the self- Both the noble Lord and the noble Baroness asked reliance of Afghan forces in the fight against terrorism. about the ARAP relocation programme. The noble Wewill continue to work shoulder to shoulder with them. Baroness is absolutely right; we owe a huge debt of gratitude to interpreters and other locally employed Lord Liddle (Lab): My Lords, I am someone who staff who risk their lives working alongside UK forces thought it absolutely right to go in to remove al-Qaeda in Afghanistan. We have already supported more than in 2001 and who has always been a passionate supporter 1,500 former Afghan staff and their families to create of the potential for humanitarian military intervention, 1557 Afghanistan [LORDS] Afghanistan 1558

[LORD LIDDLE] down to the effectiveness of the Afghan national but we have to acknowledge that this has not gone as security forces in countering the Taliban. I worry well as we hoped. Why are the Government so reluctant sometimes when we seem to suggest that the answer to to set up an objective inquiry into lessons learned all these problems is simply to shovel more cash into from the Afghan experience of the last 20 years? It has Afghanistan. To pick up on my noble friend’s previous been a tremendous cost, in human blood, disablement answer, I seek her reassurance that we will continue to and treasure. We owe it to the people who have suffered offer practical training support in the Afghan National to examine this question very deeply. Army Officer Academy by having people there, as that is why it has been successful over the past few years. Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con): I thank the noble Lord, and I hope I can reassure him by saying Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con): My noble that there have been reviews. After the conclusion of friend is absolutely right. We are extremely proud of Operation Herrick in 2014, there was a thorough our achievements with the officer academy. Of course, internal review. As he will know, some of the further we will continue to work with it and listen to the kinds lessons that have been learned have played a key role of support that the Afghan people and Afghan national in helping to shape our integrated review, so I do not security forces would like to ensure that they can do think it is fair to say that no lessons have been learned. their extremely challenging job. However, he is right that we are not at this point minded to consider a Chilcot-style public inquiry. We Baroness Falkner of Margravine (CB): My Lords, in are not convinced that the benefits would outweigh it, the Statement the Government seem to rely on the and we are concerned that such an inquiry could take Taliban undertaking that it will prevent any group or far longer and be far more expensive than Chilcot, individual, including al-Qaeda, from using Afghanistan which itself took seven years and cost more than to threaten the security of the US and its allies. In £13 million. The relevant time period in Afghanistan their reliance on this undertaking, what support are was twice as long. However, I reassure the noble Lord they providing to Pakistan, Nigeria, Mali and that we have learned lessons and continue to do so. We Mozambique—the list goes on—in terms of their will continue to use the integrated review to follow safety, freedom or security, or do the Government them through. believe that those countries are dispensable or unimportant in relying on the Taliban to stick to its pledges? Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD): My Lords, I Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con): We certainly declare my interest as an ambassador for HALO, a do not consider our international allies in the way the charity that is active in both mine and ordnance noble Baroness seems to suggest. We all need to work clearance in Afghanistan. I accept that the Government’s together internationally to support the Afghan intentions are good, but we must take account of the Government. As NATO partners have said, we have reality of what is happening. Units of the Afghan been very clear that this military withdrawal comes in army are taking their uniforms off and handing their the context of a renewed regional and domestic push arms and equipment to the Taliban. In those areas for peace in Afghanistan. As she rightly says, the that the Taliban now controls, it is already barring terms of the US-Taliban agreement involve commitments girls from school and undermining the rights of women. it made on preventing international terrorism in its How in those circumstances, when that is happening territory, including its relationship with al-Qaeda, which locally, can we trust what may be agreed nationally? it must deliver on. However, we will work with all international partners to provide the support we can Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con): I thank the to the Afghan Government. noble Lord. As the Statement set out, while we have had some achievements in Afghanistan, particularly Lord Grocott (Lab): The Leader of the House will in security, he is absolutely right and we accept that be aware that the Prime Minister informed the Commons significant challenges remain. We are very proud that, on Thursday that he had pledged to President Ghani alongside our allied forces, we have helped to train, that the UK would continue to support the Afghan advise and assist the Afghan national security forces national security forces with at least £58 million annually. to build them into an increasingly capable force, Given that any settlement between the Afghan notwithstanding what the noble Lord said, in providing Government and the Taliban is bound to mean the security. In particular, we helped set up the Afghan Taliban’s involvement in government, what would be National Army Officer Academy, which delivers 70% of the policy of the UK towards maintaining these current the army’s combat leaders annually, equating to 5,500 levels of support in those circumstances? What safeguards highly trained officers to date, of which around 330 would there be to ensure that the money is used for the are women. I do not dispute that there are challenges purposes intended? ahead, but we have made real gains and will continue to support those important institutions to help bring Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con): Of course we peace to their country. will work to ensure that any funding goes to where it should, and I am sure we will keep things under review Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton (Con): My Lords, as the situation goes on. The Prime Minister has been seeing young girls in school and everything that means very clear to President Ghani about our commitment for the future of Afghanistan reassures me and, I am to support him and his Government and our resolve sure, many others who served there that our efforts to counter terrorist threats going forward. Of course were not in vain. The question is whether they will still all these things will be under review as we work be in school in three years’ time. That is probably together, but we have a close dialogue with the Afghan 1559 Afghanistan [12 JULY 2021] Afghanistan 1560

Government, and that will continue, to make sure that 2010, these units have seized 18 tonnes of heroin, we can support them in the best and most effective 70 tonnes of opium, almost 1,700 weapons as well as way that we can. $3 million and $100 million of assets. So, we have been working with the Afghan counter-narcotics police to Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD): My Lords,the Statement tackle this trade and we will continue to do so. emphasises the defeat of transnational terrorism in Afghanistan using Afghanistan as a base, but we all Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab) [V]: Would the know that transnational terrorism has moved: first to noble Baroness agree that, given the rapid advances Iraq and Syria and now to the ungoverned Sahel. We currently being made by the Taliban, there is little understand that Britain now has a significant commitment incentive for them to enter into peace talks, and so the of forces to the Sahel, in co-operation with the French turbulence is likely to persist for some time? Given and as part of a UN agency, but this is not reported to that, what will be the effects on food aid to the needy? the UK Parliament very frequently. Would the Minister What advice are we giving to the aid agencies? What is give some commitment that the role of UK forces the effect on the functioning of our embassy? Are we committed either to the UN operation or to co-operation withdrawing personnel at the moment? with the French, across the Sahel, will be reported more fully to Parliament so that we can understand Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con): The UK the rationale and the nature of the threat they are facing? embassy in Kabul will remain open after the end of the Resolute Support Mission. We take the protection Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con): I am very of our staff extremely seriously and will keep security happy to speak to my noble friend Lady Goldie and under constant review. In the immediate term, there have her contact the noble Lord for such a discussion. will be a small number of troops, consistent with a diplomatic presence, that will remain to offer assurance Lord King of Bridgwater (Con) [V]: My Lords, we to the international community in Kabul as we transfer went into Afghanistan to stop it being a global terrorist to the end of the mission. base. We did it successfully for 20 years and, obviously, we could not stay permanently. Surely now it is up to Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl) [V]: My the Afghan people to decide their own future, but we Lords, the British Armed Forces are to be applauded must ensure that the Taliban are left in no doubt that for their commitment and tenacity on behalf of us all they must honour the undertaking referred to in the over the last 20 years to keep us safe. Would the Statement or, yet again, face the consequences. In that Leader of the House say if there will be a residual connection, I hope that the Pakistan Government will garrison remaining in Afghanistan to protect British reinforce that message. interests, such as consul buildings, and does she believe the Taliban when they say they have changed their Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con): I thank my views on the emancipation and education of girls and noble friend. He is absolutely right. As I have said, we women? are under no illusion about the significant challenges that remain within Afghanistan, but there have been Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con): All UK troops achievements. As he rightly said, our primary objective, assigned to NATO’s Resolute Support Mission will when we deployed to Afghanistan 20 years ago, was to draw down with allies and partners, but as I said in my ensure it was not used by al-Qaeda as a successful base answer to the previous question, in the immediate for further international attacks. In that mission, we term a small number of troops consistent with a have been successful; there has not been a single diplomatic presence will remain to offer assurance to successful terrorist attack launched on the West since the international community in Kabul. then, obviously notwithstanding what the noble Lord said about terrorist threats in other areas. That has Lord Robathan (Con): My Lords, the departure of been the achievement of our very brave Armed Forces the allied forces from Afghanistan under the current and the people of Afghanistan, and we must not circumstance is, frankly, heartbreaking, especially for forget it. the families of the 457 Armed Forces personnel who were killed and indeed for the many who came back Viscount Waverley (CB): My Lords, Afghanistan without legs and other limbs.It is absolutely heartbreaking. and beyond, including the Sahel corridor, must become Should the Taliban take over in Kabul, as seems and continue to remain a priority. Aspects of the depressingly possible, it will be a failure of policy over Statement’s cautiously optimistic messaging disguise the last 20 years. It will be a disaster not unlike that of ominous signals on the ground, all underlining these the first Afghan war, the history of which should perilous times. Does the Leader of the House remember perhaps have been studied more closely by those who that it was the lawlessness in Afghanistan that resulted committed troops in numbers to Afghanistan in 2005. in the original acceptance of the Taliban entering If the Taliban should become the Government in Afghanistan from the Pakistan borderlands, and one Kabul, what would be Her Majesty’s Government’s of the contributory factors to the lawlessness was intention—would we then recognise the Taliban as the heroin production? What was accomplished to stem Government of Afghanistan? the industry during our time in Afghanistan, or is the industry carrying on as before? Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con): I am afraid that I am not going to speculate on issues like that. We Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con): We have strongly support efforts to energise the Afghan peace provided mentoring and support to dedicated units in process. The Taliban have no military route to realising the counter-narcotics police of Afghanistan. Since their political goals, so if they wish to play a political 1561 Afghanistan [LORDS] Environment Bill 1562

[BARONESS EVANS OF BOWES PARK] these arrangements? The women are at great risk and role in Afghanistan’s future, they must share the goals some, as noble Lords will know, have already been of stability and security for its population and engage murdered. meaningfully in the peace negotiations. Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con): As I said in Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB): My Lords, many earlier answers, the Afghan relocations and assistance faiths—including a thriving Sikh population of many policy was launched on 1 April. We are speeding up thousands—have had to flee Afghanistan because of that process to ensure that anyone whose life is in the hardening of extremism, resulting from repeated danger in Afghanistan can access this programme and invasions from Britain, then Russia and, more recently, build a new life in the UK. America and the West. Bombs and missiles cannot change mindsets. Would the Minister agree with the The Deputy Speaker (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) statement by former Prime Minister Theresa May that (Lab): My Lords, all listed speakers have asked their Britain should stop being the self-appointed policeman questions. There will now be a short pause before we of the world? It is a policy copied by others that commence the next business. creates ever more refugees in a suffering world. Environment Bill Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con): There has Committee (7th Day) been significant progress in human rights in Afghanistan 2.33 pm since 2001, as I said, in connection to women’s rights, the rights of minority groups, freedom of expression Relevant documents: 3rd Report from the Delegated and access to education. We will continue to work Powers Committee, 4th Report from the Constitution with the Afghan Government and international allies Committee to protect this. TheDeputyChairmanof Committees(BaronessMcIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab): I will call Members to speak in the Baroness Blackstone (Ind Lab): My Lords, what order listed. During the debate on each group, I invite recent discussions have the Government had with the Members, including Members in the Chamber, to email relevant authorities in Pakistan? It is acknowledged the clerk if they wish to speak after the Minister. I will that Pakistan can play a crucial role in influencing the call Members to speak in order of request. The groupings Taliban and securing the peace process, that could are binding. A participant who might wish to press an avoid another decent into civil war in Afghanistan. If amendment other than the lead amendment in a group there have been no such discussions with Pakistan, to a Division must give notice in debate or by emailing would the Leader of the House say why? theclerk.Leaveshouldbegiventowithdrawamendments. When putting the Question, I will collect voices in the Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con): I am afraid Chamber only. If a Member taking part remotely that I do not have a running list of every negotiation wants their voice accounted for if the Question is put, happening, but I am very happy to go back to colleagues they must make this clear when speaking on the group. and write to the noble Baroness with recent contacts. Clause 97: Local nature recovery strategies for Baroness Stuart of Edgbaston (Non-Afl): My Lords, England as it happens, today is Malala Yousafzai’s 24th birthday—an exceptionally forceful reminder that the Amendment 226 right to education and the relationship between Moved by Lord Teverson Afghanistan and Pakistan simply cannot be ignored. I accept the unwillingness to give a running commentary 226: Clause 97, page 99, line 3, after “England” insert “and its territorial waters” of who we have or have not talked to. However, we Member’s explanatory statement know that things are not going to get any easier. Will This amendment ensures that an area’s adjacent territorial the Minister undertake to give more precise details of waters are included in a Nature Recovery strategy how the Government intend to, first, deal with Pakistan in that relationship and, secondly, ensure that the right Lord Teverson (LD): My Lords, as some of my to education for girls will continue to progress in even amendments are associated with nature recovery network a slightly comparable way to the progress we have strategies, I once again declare my interest as chair of made so far? the Cornwall and Isles of Scilly Local Nature Partnership. I know the Minister has assured us that the marine Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con): As I said, I environment is included in the Bill. It hardly has a have already made a commitment to write on Pakistan, high profile, yet our national waters, including the so I shall do that. EEZ, have an area of 885,000 square kilometres, whereas the terrestrial landmass of the United Kingdom is a Baroness Goudie (Lab) [V]: My Lords, the Americans, mere 242,000 square kilometres, so that marine in their discussions with Britain, discussed giving freedom environment is three and a half times larger. My and assistance not only to Afghanistan and other contention is that it is just as important and should countries but to the women peacebuilders and those receive at least the same amount of interest. Last year women at the peace table. How many women are we we had the Fisheries Act, and the Government made it going to assist and bring to Britain or a safe country, very clear that that was not a piece of environmental and how long will it be before the Government make legislation. It dealt with fisheries management plans, 1563 Environment Bill [12 JULY 2021] Environment Bill 1564 but those were not environmental management plans. keen to hear from the Minister the progress on that Indeed, we gave credit that the Fisheries Act had a and how he sees the timescale in terms of rolling out number of objectives relating to the environment and beyond pilots. climate change, but that was not the mission of that At the moment, we have some 372 marine protected piece of legislation—yet nature recovery in our marine areas around our shores. They cover some 38% of our area is just as important as in our terrestrial environment. total waters. That sounds impressive, but the regimes I was interested to see that one of the Government’s for those marine protected areas are extremely weak in targets is to have good environmental status for our many cases and certainly do not protect the seabed marine environment. In 2019—two years ago—they and all the habitats. These highly protected marine published an appraisal of progress made on having areas absolutely have to be done in consultation with good environmental status for our marine environment, the fishing industry and other commercial interests, looking out beyond our territorial waters to our economic but it is so important they are rolled out quickly, zone as well. I am afraid to say that of the 15 areas the effectively and as soon as possible. That is why these government report focuses on, in six we managed not amendments are important. to meet targets at all; in five we made partial progress In Cornwall, as I have said before, we were lucky on those targets; and in four we actually achieved enough to have one of the pilots for the nature recovery them. networks. When we started work on that, Defra may I will take the Committee through some of the not have been “against” it—that is perhaps too strong areas where good environmental status targets were a word—but it did not see marine as being included in not achieved: commercial fish, non-commercial fish, that pilot strategy. We went ahead and included it benthic habitats, invasive species, marine litter and anyway, because you cannot talk about the environment breeding birds. None of those was achieved. There of the far south-west peninsula without including was some improvement in pelagic habitats, the food marine; it is just impossible. The Minister could hopefully web, underwater noise, cetaceans—primarily dolphins, make my amendments redundant—not the EEZ ones, as we know them—and seals. As far as I can see, but these amendments—by confirming that it is now things such as seagrass, which is hugely important not government policy that nature recovery networks, when just for the marine habitat but for carbon capture, it is appropriate and there is an adjacent ocean or were not covered at all in that report. territorial waters, should be included within those We have a real crisis and challenge out there in the nature recovery network strategies. That is my clear oceans that surround our island and islands, so that is message and question. I beg to move. why I have tabled these amendments. The first one is to ensure that local nature recovery networks include Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP): My Lords, it not just the land area but the adjacent territorial is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, waters—that is, out to 12 nautical miles—of those with all his expertise. The Government bring legislation areas. They have to be included in those plans. As the to this House so that we can help them improve it—so noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, said on another the expertise in your Lordships’ House can be of marine amendment some days ago, it is not just the benefit to the Government and of course the nation. fact that they are two different environments; they are So I really think that, if the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, connected—literally—so it is important for that reason were not a Lord already, he would deserve some future too that nature recovery networks include marine, honour for all his hard work in contributing to our littoral and territorial areas. work here and to the Government. He has highlighted But it would clearly be unreasonable to ask, say, another example of how this Bill has passed a suite of Sussex or maybe even more so Cornwall to look at its legislative measures without reference to water—to whole EEZ stretching way out into the Atlantic, yet territorial waters, to the sea. EEZs also require important help in terms of nature We looked at agriculture and fisheries: they do not recovery out to the 200 nautical mile limit. So, to be tie together in any coherent way,and I do not understand practical, I have tabled separate amendments to propose how we can keep on passing legislation that does not that the Secretary of State should be responsible for tie up. Without these amendments, we are at risk of creating, producing and revising nature recovery networks seeing our seas and fisheries as being separate from for those offshore EEZ areas. Indeed, it would make a the rest of our environment and all our ecological lot of sense if they tied up with marine management activities. This sort of silo thinking would undermine organisations and marine planning areas, but, again, the realities of the inseparable ecosystems and natural those plans are not primarily environmental ones. systems. I would be particularly concerned and upset They are mapping and usage ones. They are not if an upland authority had a nature recovery strategy primarily environmental plans, but they should come that failed to take into account what was happening to together to do that. its downstream neighbours and, ultimately, to the seas In the other amendment I put down—Amendment where the watercourses will end up. An Environment 246—I tackle highly protected marine areas. I have to Bill that allows for that eventuality is fundamentally give good credit to the Minister and the Government inadequate and incoherent, with no basic understanding in this area, because, since I laid down that amendment, of the environment. at the early stages after Second Reading, the Government I am sure the Minister will take time over the have opened a programme and asked for bids for Summer Recess to ensure that this Bill fits with the pilots for highly protected marine areas. So there is Agriculture Act and the Fisheries Act. I am sure that progress on this already, and, to some degree, this is going to be a priority, so these two important amendment is now redundant—but I would be very ecosystems can be integrated into the mechanics of 1565 Environment Bill [LORDS] Environment Bill 1566

[BARONESS JONES OF MOULSECOOMB] opportunity to harness the power of nature in our this Environment Bill. The alternative is that, inevitably, coastal waters to sequestrate carbon through the growth in a few years’ time, the Government of the day will of seagrasses and seaweed, such as at the innovative have to bring in new legislation to try to patch up these kelp farm being developed in Shoreham. But a strategy incoherencies, with perhaps a decade of lost opportunity is needed to provide a framework for the change, to heal the environment in that time. It is much better which is why preparing and publishing a nature recovery that we work together now to get it right. strategy for the UK exclusive economic zone seems such a good idea. It is also why linking our coastal 2.45 pm waters into local nature recovery strategies will ensure Baroness Boycott (CB): My Lords, I just want to that those initiatives do not end at the shoreline. make a couple of quick points in support of the noble The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, rightly referred Lord, Lord Teverson. It is always a pleasure to follow back to our consideration of the then Fisheries Bill the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, and I completely and our frustration that sustainable fishing was not agree with her. allowed to be at the heart of the Bill, despite all our According to Greenpeace, supertrawlers spent efforts. As a result, it seems that fishing quotas are 5,590 hours fishing in UK protected waters. I had a very much business as usual, and overfishing—above meeting, by chance, with Minister Prentis from the the recommended scientific limits—remains rife. I agree other place about four weeks ago. She was on her way with the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, that this continues to Brixham, and she said that about 80% of our to be unacceptable and needs to be addressed by the fishing fleet’s catches were as a result of bottom trawling. Government. A nature recovery strategy would allow Bottom trawling is effectively like bulldozing your the opportunity to revisit that strategy, taking different house every time you have lost your car keys. It is an criteria into account. absolute travesty for the seabed, and I do not see any I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of reference at the moment to curbing and taming this Moulsecoomb, that we need a joined-up strategy between industry. As the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, said, the Agriculture and Fisheries Acts and the Environment these are simultaneous ecosystems that come together, Bill. We have said that all along; every time a Bill and what happens with fish farming, especially in the comes along, we ask, “How come these pieces of north of England, is putting incredible quantities of legislation do not speak to each other?” She is right to pollutants into our waters for the sake of cheap fish. It raise again today our need for a joined-up approach. is sold to the consumer on the grounds of being Finally, I am pleased that the noble Lord has given healthy, but the salmon that are reared in this way are us the opportunity to implement the recommendations unhealthy, unhappy and covered in sea lice. of the Benyon Review into Highly Protected Marine Finally, in terms of policies not adding up, will the Areas. The limits of the current standard marine Government agree to stop giving out new oil and gas protected areas are all too obvious, as damaging human leases with the North Sea in mind? How is that going activities are still allowed to destroy the marine habitat. to fit with our marine protection commitments at Therefore, we very much welcome the definition of COP? I hope the Minister will answer those three highly protected marine areas as those that allow the questions. recovery of marine ecosystems while prohibiting “extractive,destructive and depositional”human activities. Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab): My Lords, I We welcome the amendment that sets out that the thank the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, for, as ever, proposals for the initial locations should be published giving us an excellent explanation of why he has tabled within six months of the Bill passing. The noble Lord these amendments and for raising these very important said that he felt that the Government had caught up issues. I also thank the Minister for confirming in the with his amendment; he might be on to something, but earlier debate that net gain will be extended to major I feel that there are great advantages to having this projects in the marine environment in the future, once spelled out in the Bill just to make sure that that a suitable approach has been developed. This is certainly progress is followed through. These are indeed key a step forward. amendments, which could help to transform the quality of our marine environment. I hope that the Minister The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, rightly made the agrees and will feel able to turn these into government point that our coastal territorial waters are in urgent amendments, which I am sure would receive widespread need of protection and recovery, and, if we do not use support. this Bill to make that happen, what other opportunities will we have? The latest Committee on Climate Change adaptation report has highlighted concerns about the Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con): My quality of our terrestrial waters. It says: Lords,I begin by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, “There is clear evidence that warming seas, reduced oxygen, for his powerful advocacy for the marine environment ocean acidification and sea-level rise are already affecting UK throughout these proceedings and, indeed, last year coasts and seas … with effects seen in seabed-dwelling species, as throughout the proceedings on the Fisheries Act, in well as plankton, fish, birds and mammals.” which he knows I had some involvement. It also reports that there has been a decline in the I will focus first on Amendments 226, 227 and 229. overall condition of protected coastal sites. I sympathise with the intention behind this group of So, on the one hand, we need to tackle the hazardous amendments, but the Government do not agree that pollution, including plastic waste, that has led to the this is the right approach. Local nature recovery strategies failure to meet the environmental targets to which the build on the important role that local authorities play noble Lord referred. On the other hand, there is an as local leaders and decision-makers within their areas, 1567 Environment Bill [12 JULY 2021] Environment Bill 1568 as the noble Lord will know from his time spent on the Amendments 246, 247 and 251 aim to create highly Cornwall pilot. Clearly, actions taken on land can protected marine areas.The Government have committed affect the marine environment and vice versa, and we to designate HPMAs by the end of 2022, using the should not create false barriers to nature’s recovery. definition of the noble Lord, Lord Benyon, as set out in his review, which was carried out before he joined As such, our intention is that local nature recovery the Government Front Bench. The Government will strategies should integrate with existing spatial plans work with their arm’s-length bodies and stakeholders of marine areas. This is in order to understand the to identify a list of potential pilot sites for highly area’s current uses and its potential in adjacent marine protected marine areas. On 5 July, we published the areas. It is something that we have explored through ecological criteria that we will use to identify highly recent pilots, which, as I said, the noble Lord has protected marine areas and we will create a list of kindly supported. However, local authorities are not potential sites this year. We plan to designate pilot best placed to produce marine strategies, as these sites in 2022 as marine conservation zones, with higher areas are largely beyond their remit and authority. I levels of protection than existing zones, using powers believe that requiring this would lead to significant under the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009. complications and potentially unhelpful duplication with existing processes. It would include duplication I note that the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, had a with the Marine Management Organisation, which is number of concerns about controlling harmful marine England’s main marine regulator and manages the activities. Introduced under the Marine and Coastal licensing of marine activities, recreation and fisheries Access Act, marine licensing is a process by which beyond six nautical miles. The inshore fisheries and those seeking to undertake certain activities are required conservation authorities also manage fishing out to to apply for a licence. The requirement for a licence six nautical miles and any marine nature restoration extends across much of our territorial seas, including strategies should include their input. the foreshore, and covers a diverse range of activities, from depositing a marker on the seabed through to Amendment 233 would require the Defra Secretary large-scale developments. Authorisation or enforcement of State to create a nature recovery strategy for the decisions must be taken in accordance with the appropriate United Kingdom exclusive economic zone for England. marine plans. The Government already have a strong framework in In answer to the noble Baroness’s other question place to ensure ocean recovery through the UK marine about drilling for oil and gas and refusal of future strategy. Its goal is to ensure that all UK seas are of licences, I refer her to the Ten Point Plan and to the good environmental status, exactly as the noble Lord’s energy White Paper, which address her questions on amendment would require. oil and gas exploration. The Government have had to In March this year, we published the updated UK tread a careful dividing line and balance between Marine Strategy Part Two, setting out the monitoring keeping energy costs as low as we can while fulfilling programmes that we will use to assess progress towards our commitments to the net-zero target. our updated good environmental status targets. This I assure the noble Lord that the requirements of the will be followed by the update to our programme of amendments are already covered, as the Government measures, which will set out a comprehensive list of have committed to identifying potential sites this year measures to help to achieve good environmental status. and pilot sites designated as marine conservation zones As the UK already has a strategy for ocean recovery, in England will be covered by the protected site strategy this well-intentioned amendment is not needed. clause. I thank the noble Lord for raising this important issue, which I know is close to his heart, and I hope The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, generously welcomed that he is reassured by the Government’s commitments the Benyon Review into Highly Protected Marine Areas. in this area. I ask him to withdraw his amendment. The Government published their response to the review on World Oceans Day 2021 and accept the majority of The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness its recommendations. In answer to the question from McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab): My Lords, I understand the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, about when we will that the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, would like to ask designate HPMAs, that will be done in 2022. We do a question of the Minister before he decides how to not agree that HPMAs should be only within existing dispose of his amendment. marine protected areas, which was recommendation 13 of the report, and we will consider designating Lord Teverson (LD): My Lords, I will sum up in just HPMAs outside the current MPA network to ensure a moment but I have a question for the Minister. I am that we can maximise nature recovery.Existing governance very disappointed by her reply. It seems to fly in the structures of ALBs were beyond the scope of the face of what nature recovery networks are all about. Government’s response to this review. However, I will come on to that later. I note that the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, also The Minister said that local authorities are not asked about joined-up thinking, which I know has competent to deal with these issues—for example, the concerned a number of noble Lords throughout the six-mile limit. However, she mentioned in particular passage of this Bill, the Agriculture Act and the Fisheries IFCAs, which are the inshore fisheries and conservation Act. A number of measures in all three Acts will have authorities. They are nominated partly by the Marine benefits for the marine environment. The Fisheries Management Organisation—I agree with that—but Act will benefit the environment, as will the Agriculture appointments to them are also hugely influenced by Act. They have all been put together at a policy level local authorities. Local authorities are already hugely and have been thought about comprehensively. engaged in the first six-mile limits; they already have 1569 Environment Bill [LORDS] Environment Bill 1570

[LORD TEVERSON] Jones of Whitchurch, for their support on this amendment. duties in that area. When it comes to the Marine I am seriously disappointed because, if nature recovery Management Organisation and its licensing, which is networks are right for the land, they are also right for within that same area as well, it has to talk to a our oceans.For land areas,all sorts of different authorities, number of statutory organisations before it can make whether it is Natural England, the Environment Agency, decisions—for example, Natural England and the local authorities, national parks, or even the police, Environment Agency—and it has a concordat with deal with all these areas of environmental enforcement local authorities to discuss those developments with and environmental policy. The nature recovery them as well. Local authorities are already hugely networks—and this is the reason I support them so involved in that area. Why not make it so that there is strongly—bring those together within a context with a some structure to that within at least the six-mile limit, plan and structure, meaning that natural growth in so that those decisions become coherent and make biodiversity and the quantum of nature can start to more sense—they are also probably more quickly made happen. by the Marine Management Organisation and IFCAs— Yet it is just all too complicated, apparently, for our and so that the whole system becomes better and more marine environment. I do not get that, and I think it is efficient, and works for the environment as well? That unfortunate. I welcome the Minister’s progress on is my question to the Minister. highly protected marine areas; I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, that one can Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con): I never be certain until something is in the Bill, but I take the noble Lord’s point, but the three coastal pilot suspect that this particular thing may not get into the areas that we considered—Cornwall, Cumbria and Bill, so I welcome the Minister’s comments in that Northumberland—all took very different approaches area. to voluntarily including adjacent marine areas in their I am hugely disappointed about the marine pilots. There will be a sense of duplication in what the environment. I know all the MMO inshore and offshore noble Lord is suggesting, because the spatial assessments marine plans, but they are not primarily focused on of a marine area, capturing current uses and signalling environment; that is not their purpose. They include future potential, are led by marine management elements of it, but it is not why they are about. I was organisations. To go further than that, I would like to on the board of the MMO when they were written and take this back, consider it and perhaps write to the created—they still have not all been approved yet—and noble Lord if I can add any more flesh on those bones. I highly welcome them. They are important, but they Lord Teverson (LD): My Lords— are not what this is about. In the meantime, however, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Amendment 226 withdrawn. Finlay of Llandaff) (CB): I beg the noble Lord’s pardon; forgive me, I had not spotted the notice—I also have a Amendments 227 and 227A not moved. request from the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, to ask a question of the Minister. Clause 97 agreed. 3 pm Clause 98: Preparation of local nature recovery Lord Krebs (CB): My Lords, I wanted to return to strategies the question of sustainable fishing, which was mentioned Amendments 228 to 229A not moved. by, among others, the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch. On 22 February, I asked a Question for Clause 98 agreed. Written Answer on what the Government’s strategy is for reducing quotas is fish stocks fall below their Clause 99: Content of local nature recovery strategies maximum sustainable yield. The Answer, which was rather long-winded, ended up saying: Amendments 230 and 231 not moved. “Where appropriate, they will set out actions to improve data Clause 99 agreed. collection and ways to establish sustainable harvest rates.” My question for the Minister today is: is now the Amendment 231A not moved. appropriate time and, if so, what action will the Government be taking to ensure that fish stocks are Clause 100: Information to be provided by the harvested at or below MSY? Secretary of State Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con): I am Amendment 232 not moved. sorry, my briefing does not include that sort of detail. Clause 100 agreed. May I write to the noble Lord with an update on the maximum sustainable yields and how we are faring? Amendment 233 not moved. The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Clause 101 agreed. Finlay of Llandaff) (CB): I call the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, and apologise again to him. The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Finlay of Llandaff) (CB): My Lords, we now come to Lord Teverson (LD): No, I apologise for speaking at the group beginning with Amendment 234. Anyone the wrong time. I thank the noble Baronesses, wishing to press this or anything else in this group to a Lady Boycott, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb and Lady Division must make that clear in debate. 1571 Environment Bill [12 JULY 2021] Environment Bill 1572

Clause 102: Species conservation strategies Currently, few chalk streams have protected site status. We have drivers, such as priority habitats status Amendment 234 and the water framework directive but, thus far, these have failed to deliver enough improvements for chalk Moved by Lord Chidgey streams, principally because they lack statutory drivers 234: Clause 102, page 101, line 34, leave out “may” and insert for investment. Stakeholders are united in the view “must” that there is a clear need for a status mechanism via Member’s explanatory statement designation, which can add impetus and drive investment This amendment requires Natural England to prepare and publish species conservation strategies. across multiple policy levers.These include water company price review processes; ELMS local nature recovery and landscape recovery; local nature recovery strategies; Lord Chidgey (LD): My Lords, I speak in particular biodiversity net gain; and protection through the planning to Amendments 234 and 241 in my name. The process. A new designation should deliver an integrated Government have shown a commitment to tackling approach to the protection of the chalk stream channel, the issue of the poor quality of our rivers and freshwater its floodplain, surrounding catchment and aquifer, environment. Issues around pollution and declining leading to nature and biodiversity recovery at the freshwater biodiversity have been a constant refrain in landscape level. the media for some time. Freshwater species have This amendment would require Natural England, declined by 88% since 1970—a greater decline than along with Defra and the EA, to explore the appropriate seen for species in forests or oceans—and one-third of mechanism for introducing a new category of protections, freshwater fish species faces extinction. England is the which may include the adaptation of application of an home of 85% of the world’s chalk streams; we have a existing mechanism to protect chalk streams. In doing global responsibility to protect these ecosystems. so it would consider including a statutory biodiversity Species conservation strategies can potentially play target for chalk stream catchments in the Bill that an important role in conservation, although there is a would elevate the status of all chalk streams and call to avoid them becoming a default setting for provide long-term certainty about government ambition managing the impact of development on nature. The and commitment to protection and restoration. It purpose of “must”instead of “may”in this amendment would also consider a new form of designation or is to strengthen the clause and to underpin the requirement statutory protection for all chalk streams through a for a conservation strategy for improving the conservation Green Paper on habitats regulation, and a stronger of species. This is not intended to mean all species, but policy steer for chalk streams, for example through the those whose conservation is probably most at risk; for ministerial guidance on river basin management plans example, salmon and sea trout, where it is thought and the strategic priorities statement to Ofwat. that there is not as yet a clear conservation plan in place. There is a range of plans, such as the Environment Such a status for chalk streams would drive the Agency’s salmon five-point plan, but these have not investment and resources that have been severely led to any meaningful action in terms of the broad lacking—not only for chalk streams, but, as the first threats in our rivers and coastal waters. report of 2020-21 from the Environment Audit Committee Amendment 241 aims to create a new designation in the other place, Biodiversity in the UK: Boom or of protection for chalk streams. This analysis has been Bust, made clear, for the protection and advancement prepared with the assistance of experts from the Angling of biodiversity more broadly. Trust and the Catchment Based Approach—CaBA—a These are not exclusively chalk stream measures. restoration group under the chairmanship of Charles Many other types of river and stream are also in great Rangeley-Wilson. It is preparing a report to government need of investment. An integrated approach to restoring on the need for restoration and greater protection of all types of habitat and associated species through chalk streams in England: the chalk stream restoration restoration of natural ecosystem function—particularly strategy. This group, made up of representatives from natural catchment function—will help to deliver multiple water companies, conservation NGOs and statutory biodiversity benefits, alongside a wealth of natural agencies,including Natural England and the Environment capital associated with restored aquifer recharge, tackling Agency,will publish the chalk stream restoration strategy pollution at source and natural flood management, to in September. The report will make a series of quote Natural England in 2018. recommendations, looking at the three elements that Nevertheless, the draft report argues that the global make up action to restore our chalk streams to a rarity of English chalk streams provides a potent near-natural state: action to reduce and mitigate the justification for singling out this river type, among impact of overabstraction, to reduce pollution and others. There are other justifications. One is the fact improve water quality, and to restore the habitats and that chalk streams are under particular stress because ecological functioning of chalk streams. The report is they flow through a highly developed landscape. They currently out for public consultation. have been particularly stressed by historic management The first recommendation of the report is supported and have distinct biodiversity, cultural and heritage by all the companies and agencies involved in the value. For hydrological reasons, they are less capable report’s production and from stakeholders’ responses. of self-repair than higher-energy rivers. This recommendation is for “an overarching protection and priority status for chalk streams There is also a common misconception that chalk and their catchments to give them a distinct identity and to drive streams exist only in the wealthier home counties of investment in water-resources infrastructure, water treatment and Hampshire and Berkshire. In fact, chalk streams are catchment-scale restoration”. distributed from west Dorset to north-east Yorkshire, 1573 Environment Bill [LORDS] Environment Bill 1574

[LORD CHIDGEY] simply move down the road to a new roost in a and many flow through less affluent parts of our habitat-compensation arrangement. I would therefore landscape, and through numerous towns and cities, as be interested to hear from the Minister which species well as the rural idylls most frequently depicted. he thinks would benefit most from a species conservation For example, the Eastleigh Angling Society has strategy, and why. It is possible for a good strategic more than 850 members. Eastleigh, a constituency approach to play an important role in conservation, that I had the privilege to represent, owes its origins to but, for that to happen, the priorities need to change. railway development and manufacture, together with The strategies must be led by the interests of nature, other heavy industry outlets. Yet the River Itchen not commercial interests. flows through it. There are also several urban chalk Amendment 235 seeks to strengthen the protection streams, including the Wandle and Cray in Greater of nature and to ensure that the strategies are used London. So I ask the Government to support these primarily to benefit species in need of help, not developers proposals for the designation of chalk streams. I beg in need of land. First, it includes reference to the to move. mitigation hierarchy proposed in Amendment 168A by the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone. Lord Krebs (CB): My Lords, it is a great pleasure to Secondly, it narrows and clarifies the objective of a follow the noble Lord, Lord Chidgey, and his eloquent species conservation strategy to ensure that it is about advocacy for chalk streams. I will speak primarily to protecting nature and not about achieving an ill-defined Amendment 235, in my name and those of the noble balance between conservation and planning approval. Lord, Lord Randall of Uxbridge, and the noble Thirdly, it ensures that, unlike district licensing, species Baronesses, Lady Parminter and Lady Jones of conservation strategies are about more than the crunch Whitchurch. The aim of our amendment is to ensure point between species and houses. It requires a strategy that the primary purpose of species conservation strategies to define favourable conservation status for the relevant is to support the recovery of nature rather than to species, and the barriers and opportunities for ensuring facilitate development. that that species can thrive. At first sight, Clause 102 looks very good. It requires As with other parts of this Bill, there is a balance to Natural England to publish a strategy for improving be struck between the protection of nature and the the conservation status of any species. It must do this commercial interests of developers. Amendment 235 for a “strategy area”, which could be as large as the aims to ensure that the balance is not weighted against whole of England. The strategy has to spell out which nature. As Sir Partha Dasgupta said on Radio 4 this habitat features are important for the species in question morning, in a slightly different context: and how they may be improved. Natural England “In this small, densely populated island, we need to make a must also give an opinion on any consents or approvals special effort to ensure that the interests of commerce don’t that could adversely affect the conservation status of a continue, as they have in the past, to override the interests of species, as well as measures that could be taken to nature.” compensate for any adverse effects. Planning authorities I look forward to the Minister’s response on this must co-operate with Natural England in preparing amendment. and implementing any conservation strategy, and “have However, while I am standing up, I will refer briefly regard to” the strategy. to Amendment 293A in this group, in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, the noble 3.15 pm Baronesses, Lady Parminter and Lady Jones of That looks good, but when you kick the tyres you Whitchurch, and the noble Earl, Lord Shrewsbury. I find that the protections for nature are not quite as am not quite sure why this amendment is in this group, strong as they might have appeared at first sight. The but, according to my list, it is, and it is all about the clause would enable an approach that allows individual prohibition of lead ammunition in the killing of wild specimens and populations of a protected species to birds and other wild beasts. be harmed, in return for a contribution to their I first became aware of this issue about eight years conservation on a wider scale, for example by creating ago, when I was asked to chair a research conference new habitat. at Oxford University on the scientific evidence pertaining The great crested newt has become a cautionary to the harms of lead shot, not just to wildlife but to tale for this approach. District-level licensing schemes humans. It is literally a no-brainer, in the sense that we for the great crested newt are not comprehensive now know with strong scientific evidence that the conservation strategies that address all the conservation brains of our children can be damaged by consumption needs of this species: they are mechanisms designed of lead shot through shot game. The scientific estimate solely to address the interface between newts and is that somewhere between 4,000 and 48,000 children development in areas to which the schemes are applied. in this country are suffering a lower IQ as a result of Experience of district licensing has been mixed, with consuming lead shot. varying degrees of success in the different programmes I support the intention behind the amendment because, around the country. Overall, the jury is still out on despite clear advice from their expert advisory group, whether it is an effective conservation approach. the Government adopted a voluntary approach, and It is also far from clear that this kind of policy we know from a paper published by Rhys Green and would work for many other species. For example, his colleagues at the University of Cambridge in February many species of bat are long-lived, have low reproductive this year that no progress whatever has been made rates and rely on a complex mixture of habitat features. since nine hunting and shooting organisations said Many are faithful to site-specific roosts and would not that they would aim to reduce the use of lead shot. 1575 Environment Bill [12 JULY 2021] Environment Bill 1576

Equally, retailers—I have spoken to two of our major My amendment would include more than just the food retailers about this over the past few years—are development impacts and merely requiring Natural still selling game killed with lead shot. A very small England’s opinion on a matter. warning says, “May contain lead shot”, rather than, “May reduce the IQ of your children”. I shall not Amendment 244 is similar to my Amendment 236, speak any further on this, because I am sure others which is an amendment to the amendment of the will speak at greater length, but I support that amendment. noble Lord, Lord Krebs. As I said, I support his amendment, but I believe the Secretary of State should publish The Earl of Caithness (Con): My Lord, I am delighted “and make available for consultation” to follow my friend, the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, because the 10 amendments I have in this group very his guidance. It is all very well the Secretary of State much follow the line of thinking that he just enunciated. publishing guidance, but unless it is properly consulted Before I speak to my amendments, I will comment on on, it might not be as effective as it should. Both my Amendment 293A in the name of the noble Lord, amendments require consultation on the guidance. I Lord Browne of Ladyton. I support what he is trying do not mind whether it is reflected in the amendment to do; it is time that the shooting interests got rid of of the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, he supports me, or we lead shot in shotguns and we moved to a different support each other, as long as we get this clause form of ammunition. I know that my noble friend changed. Lord Shrewsbury will wax more lyrical on that than I can, but I support what the noble Lord is trying to Amendments 248 and 249 are to Clause 103. The achieve. point of Amendment 248 is that the conservation and management of protected sites need to be based on I can break down my 10 amendments into different science rather than opinion. I hope that the Minister groups, but their purpose is to try to make this part of will agree with me on that. His fellow Minister, my the Bill work better, in the same way as the noble noble friend Lord Benyon, certainly agrees on that, Lord, Lord Krebs, is trying to do with his amendment. because, when he answered a Question on pesticides—I It is right that the Government are adopting strategies do not have the quote with me—he said that scientific to protect nature.The noble Lord, Lord Krebs, mentioned evidence was essential to get it right. If scientific district-level licensing of the great crested newt. evidence is right for pesticides, it is also right in this My Amendments 237 to 240 are designed to make instance. Amendment 249 seeks to include “landowners”. certain that the measures are integrated into local It is right that everybody with any legal interest is nature reserve strategies and are fit for purpose. By properly covered in this clause, and the omission of that, I mean that we need to look to wider considerations landlords does not help. than just surveying, zoning and compensating or mitigating measures against impacts from activities Amendment 252 to Clause 104 refers to new subsection such as development. My amendments suggest that (3B), which applies to all species licences issued under species conservation strategies need to encompass all Section 16(3) of the previous Act. I feel that the factors, as identified by scientific evidence, not just existing wording of “no other satisfactory solution” is habitat, and that management measures need to reflect weak and without meaning. I suggest a different form that. I have gone on before about management being of words, taken from the general licence, so I hope it the forgotten part of the way to improve nature and will be acceptable to my noble friend. I also feel that biodiversity, but it will be hugely important in areas “detrimental to the survival of any population” such as this. There ought also to be a defined basis for favourable needs legal definition, so I propose the use of “status” conservation status, so that progress can be judged instead of “survival”. “Population” can mean anything against it and a timescale for the strategies’ application from an individual site colony to the total number of established. That seems logical. Without that, species that species in the UK. Therefore, scale should come cannot continue to receive special protection, despite into any definition of “detrimental to the survival”, as success in improving their conservation status. As we reducing a population at local level may not have a all know, managing nature is difficult to get absolutely bearing on the overall population due, for example, to right. In some cases, a species may be a factor in the infill from the current year’s young of that species. decline of another at-risk species, so if the conservation I have not put down an amendment on my next status target has been achieved, that could make its point, but I raise a question for my noble friend, for management in support of the conservation of a more clarity. Could he tell me—as it is not clear in the threatened species more acceptable. There is undoubtedly Explanatory Memorandum or when I read this part of a role for us humans in all this. the Bill—what are the Secretary of State’s powers? I turn to Amendment 242. The Explanatory Notes Does the Secretary of State retain the power that he to Clause 102(4)(e) suggest how Natural England needs? This has not happened in Wales, and there has applies the mitigation hierarchy in relation to activities been a major problem, because the Secretary of State such as development. I am concerned by the clause’s has not been able to retake control, as has been seen wording of here in England in 2019, for general licensing relating “adverse impact … that may arise from a plan, project or other to Sections 16(1)(c) and 16(3)(c). I support the Secretary activity”, of State being able to take control and I hope that my because I think it could limit the use of management noble friend will be able to confirm that this is in fact tools that, based on scientific evidence, are needed. the case. 1577 Environment Bill [LORDS] Environment Bill 1578

3.30 pm the sale of poisoned game from other outlets is no longer justifiable. Yet up and down the country, the Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab) [V]: My Lords, I health of children is being put at risk wherever lead-shot shall speak to Amendment 293A, in my name and that game meat is consumed by them. In recognition of of my noble friend Lady Jones of Whitchurch, the this and the hundreds of thousands of wildlife lead noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, and the noble Earl, poisoning deaths each year, health professionals, Lord Shrewsbury, for whose support I am extremely conservation and shooting organisations and wild game grateful. It is a pleasure to follow the noble Earl, retailers are calling for change. Lord Caithness, and I thank him and the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, for their support for the interloper Non-toxic ammunition is widely available. It is amendment in this group, which I hope does not effective and comparably priced. In the 1990s, both divert too much attention from their respective meritorious Denmark and the Netherlands banned the use of all amendments. lead shot, with no impact on the number of hunters, Lead ammunition use creates multiple problems for proving that a change to using sustainable non-lead which a straightforward solution exists, and that is to ammunition is possible without impact on the sport. ban its use, and by so doing further catalyse the The UK Government have been dealing with the issue manufacture and sale of available non-toxic alternatives. and legislation around the problem of lead poisoning In accepting that there are other ways to achieve the from lead shot since 1991. The detail of the multiple same objective, what is proposed by Amendment 293A costly stakeholder groups, compliance studies, risk is—by an amendment to Section 5 of the Wildlife and assessments and reviews set up by Defra and the Food Countryside Act 1981—to ban the use of toxic lead Standards Agency are well known to the Minister. In shot 1999, partial regulation focused on protecting wetland birds. However, studies have found the current law to “for the purposes of killing or taking any wild animal” be ineffective at reducing lead poisoning in water birds and requiring this regulation to come into force on 1 due to a high level of noncompliance. January 2023. In the circumstances, this is sufficient time for such a change. Now is the time for policy change. It is now 30 years There are no safe levels of lead, which is why since the first UK working group on lead shot in regulation has ensured removal of lead from petrol, wetlands, and one year after the nine main UK shooting paint and drinking water. The last largely unregulated organisations—recognising the risks from lead release of lead into the environment is from lead ammunition, the imminent impacts of regulation on ammunition. Some 6,000 tonnes of lead shot and lead lead ammunition in the EU, and the likely impacts on bullets are released annually into the UK environment, UK markets for game meat—called for change on putting at risk the health of people, wildlife, and lead shot. livestock, and causing persistent and cumulative An identical amendment was debated in Committee environmental contamination. The body of evidence in the other place on 26 November 2020. Rebecca of risks from the toxic effects of lead ammunition is Pow, in responding to my honourable friend Fleur overwhelming and growing, as referred to by the noble Anderson, who moved the amendment, supported the Lord, Lord Krebs. Perhaps 10,000 children from the intent of the amendment, and appeared to agree with UK hunting community alone are estimated to be at all the arguments for the ban. Indeed, I expect that the risk of impacts on their IQ and other deficits due to Minister knows and agrees with all the arguments too. frequent household consumption of lead-shot game He is a well-known advocate of this policy, and probably meat. Lead poisoning from ammunition ingestion kills has deployed all of them himself at one stage. In the an estimated 75,000 water birds per year, plus hundreds debate in the other place, Rebecca Pow, while conceding of thousands of gamebirds and numerous birds of all the arguments, did not accept the amendment prey. Domestic livestock is put at risk when feeding on because it did not extend to single-use plastics, of all ground which has been shot over through direct ingestion things. She said that all aspects of the sport needed to of shot or when feeding on harvested silage from such be considered and that, as it did not “cover clay pigeon ground. shooting”, it was therefore deficient. She alleged difficulties Regulation of this sort would benefit the health of of detection or enforcement action and, as its extent people, the intellectual development of children, the concerned devolved matters, required legislative consent health of wild and domestic animals and food safety motions from devolved Administrations—all reasons in restaurants and retail outlets. UK policy is lagging not to accept the amendment. significantly behind the practices and organisational policies of many ammunition users. The vast majority These are all alleged impediments that can be overcome, of the shooting community is now behind this change if the Government are willing to engage with the too. I am sure that the noble Earl, Lord Shrewsbury, amendment. Set against the continuing known risk to who has a lifetime of expertise in this regard, will pick children’s health, none of them can be allowed to be up on this point. The National Game Dealers Association fatal to this amendment, particularly since banning has committed to sourcing all game, including gamebirds, toxic lead gunshot is now the Government’s stated duck, venison, and wild boar, from lead-free supply position too. On 23 March, the Government agreed to chains from 1 July 2022. Supermarkets and game move further towards a ban, and, in Rebecca Pow’s dealers are suspending sales of lead-shot game meat name, Defra published a press release. In it, she is and our own food outlets here in the Palace of Westminster reported as having said: will not sell you food containing this poison. Tocontinue “Evidence shows lead ammunition harms the environment, to allow the circumstances which potentially may occasion wildlife and people”. 1579 Environment Bill [12 JULY 2021] Environment Bill 1580

But then she went on inexplicably to announce the badgers became a protected species. But these things commissioning over a two-year period of yet a further should always be kept under review. Grey squirrels are review of the evidence and a consultation. During that now running out of control in many parts of the time, lead ammunition will continue to harm wildlife, country and it is almost too late to go back and the environment, and people. protect the red squirrel in its natural habitat. So I am The effectiveness of an amendment of this nature, very taken by Amendment 236, with its simple request as a similar ban has proved in Denmark and the that the proposals be made available for consultation. Netherlands, is that it will, at a certain date, remove I would argue that this should be informed consultation the demand for lead shot. Only regulation will provide for a substantial period of time—at least 12 weeks—so a guaranteed market for ammunition manufacturers; that all parties can be reached. ensure the provision of game, free of lead ammunition, I hope that we can reach a balance not just between for the retail market; enable cost-effective enforcement; nature and human use but between rural life and and, importantly, protect wildlife and human health. urban dwellers. I am not an expert like the noble Lord, Action on this issue was recommended in 1983 in the Lord Krebs, but one could probably argue that bats report of the Royal Commission on Environmental now are fairly commonplace in many parts of the Pollution on lead in the environment. As Fleur Anderson country, where they have extensive natural habitats in the other place said, action is clearly and do not have to occupy dwellings such as churches “long overdue. Now, at last, is the time to act.” —[Official or, in many cases, farmhouses. Giving them have a Report, Commons, Environment Bill Committee, 26/11/20; col. 704.] higher order of protection than humans who are My simple question to the Minister is, if not now, when? trying to ply their trade or, in the case of Ellerburn church, to worship, is frankly beyond the realms of logic and common sense. Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con): My Lords, I So I endorse the amendments put forward by the am delighted to follow the noble Lord as a fellow advocate. noble Lord, Lord Krebs, and, in particular, my noble I endorse the comments of the noble Lord, Lord friend Lord Caithness, and I hope that, by reviewing Chidgey, in moving his Amendment 234, on the need the level of protection and the health of an individual to ensure balance in chalk streams, and their protection. species, common sense and logic will prevail. We should recognise how popular the sport of angling is and what a wide ecosystem the chalk streams serve. 3.45 pm I particularly support Amendments 235, 236, 242 Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP) [V]: My and 244 and congratulate my noble friend Lord Caithness Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, on his work in this regard; I lend my support to him Lady McIntosh of Pickering. There is a huge amount and my noble friend Lord Shrewsbury in this regard. I of good in this group and I will be somewhat selective entirely agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, in what I cover. I begin with Amendment 241, in the said about Clause 102. I will concentrate on subsection (5), name of the noble Lord, Lord Chidgey, and thank which says: him—on behalf of many people in the UK, I am “Natural England may, from time to time, amend a species sure—for his championing of chalk streams. The noble conservation strategy.” Baroness, Lady McIntosh, referred to how these are I enjoyed the noble Lord’s cautionary tale on newts held in great regard by anglers, but we should not and I will share with him a cautionary tale that caused forget the great regard in which they are held right a lot of grief in north Yorkshire at the time. This was a across the country. case of bats in the belfry of St Hilda’s church in I note that, just last month, the River Cam became Ellerburn, in the constituency of Thirsk, Malton and the first UK river to have its rights declared, in a Filey, which I had the honour to represent for the last special ceremony organised by the local group Friends five years that I served in the other place. of the Cam. At that ceremony,a version of the Universal I entirely endorse what the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, Declaration of River Rights, drawn from indigenous said about achieving balance; part of that balance has principles and river victories around the world, was to be the rights of humans—in this case, to worship in read out. A lawyer at that event noted that, while of a place of worship in the normal way. The level of course legally this had no effect, it showed the strength protection that was afforded for years by Natural of feeling and the desire to protect the River Cam and England defied all logic. I know that this caused a lot its tributaries. I note also that the River Frome in of grief within the Church of England and I pay Somerset recently had a by-law drawn up to offer it tribute to the work done not just by local parishioners some protection. It is now for your Lordships’ House but the Church of England nationally. I do not think to encourage the Government to show a similar level that St Hilda’s church at Ellerburn was alone in this of concern to that we are seeing in affected communities. regard. The parishioners and worshippers had to evacuate Amendment 234, also in the name of the noble the church, which was effectively closed for human Lord, Lord Chidgey, is a classic “must” replacing use. There was a huge cost to clean up the church—noble “may” amendment. We are talking here of course Lords can imagine the damage that was caused by bats about species conservation strategies. As other speakers flying around in the numbers that there were. As far as have done, I will focus briefly and in particular on I understand it, eventually an accommodation was Amendment 235, which has cross-party and non-party reached with Natural England. support; had there been space, the Green Party would My greatest concern is that these species should be certainly also have attached our name to it. We have kept under review. Badger baiting, for example, was already heard in considerable detail how important finally outlawed in 1968—I forget the actual date—when this is, but it really is worth reflecting that the experience 1581 Environment Bill [LORDS] Environment Bill 1582

[BARONESS BENNETT OF MANOR CASTLE] The noble Lord, Lord Krebs, referred to a study of species conservation strategies thus far has been conducted last year in lockdown that showed that the that there is a real risk of focusing on facilitating voluntary phase-out, which was supposed to begin in development rather than protecting species and, crucially, February 2020, was not working. It is worth noting a the ecosystems that are fundamental to the continued detail from that study on pheasants bought from game existence and importance of those species. The great dealers, butchers and supermarkets around the UK. crested newt has already been referred to, but that is Of 180 birds examined by the scientists, 179—all but just one case where we have failed to see alternative, one—had been shot with lead. A year into this voluntary less damaging solutions considered, including on-site five-year phase-out, it clearly is not happening. This avoidance or mitigation of impacts. What these amendment is simple, clear,extremely deliverable and—to amendments, particularly Amendment 235, would do come back to the word “evidence”— extraordinarily is ensure that the mitigation hierarchy is always followed well-evidenced. I very much hope that we see the in species conservation strategies. This is absolutely Government taking action. crucial. I also particularly note my support for Amendment 248, in the name of the noble Earl, The Earl of Devon (CB): My Lords, I rise to offer a Lord Caithness; the stress on evidence is pretty hard few words regarding the amendments of the noble Earl, to argue with. Lord Caithness, particularly Amendments 236 and 248, Finally, I will take a little bit of time on which seek more specificity around the objectives and Amendment 293A, in the names of the noble Lord, methods of consultation for species conservation and Lord Browne of Ladyton, the noble Baronesses, protected site strategies. As I have repeatedly noted— Lady Parminter and Lady Jones of Whitchurch, and maybe I sound a bit like a stuck record—the well- the noble Earl, Lord Shrewsbury. The noble Lord, intentioned setting of environmental strategies and Lord Browne, referred to this as an “interloper goals is in danger of belabouring beleaguered farmers amendment”, but I think rather that it is a simple, and land managers with yet more confusing, conflicting clear, effective, deliverable amendment to the Bill, and and expensive mandates that will limit their ability to it is hard to see why the Government should not operate productively, if at all. accept it. We have already heard a little about how As the NFU has long stated, it is not possible to go damaging lead ammunition is, and it is worth going green if you are in the red. However worthy the back to the history. Nearly six years ago, Defra got the objectives of species and site protection laid out, they completed report of the Lead Ammunition Group, will never be met if we drive farmers and rural which recommended that lead ammunition be phased businesses out of business. I trust Defra will keep this out. That group was set up at the suggestion of the in mind as it develops policy under these provisions, RSPB and the WWT. The evidence is that, when lead and I hope the Minister provides substantial assurance shot goes out into the environment, birds—particularly that a balance will be met between nature and rural those who feed on grain over fields—collect and eat it, business. then predator and scavenger species such as crows and Separately, I will address Amendment 293A in the raptors can eat those carcasses, accumulate the lead name of the noble Lord, Lord Browne, and others and die. We know how much pressure many of our regarding the necessary prohibition of toxic lead shot. raptors continue to be under from illegal persecution, It comes as no surprise to your Lordships that Earls of and it is crucial that we protect them from this unnecessary Devon have hosted and supported shoots for many threat. centuries, including of both wildfowl and reared game In putting a sense of scale on this, I am indebted to birds, in which both lead shot and, more recently, Tom Cameron, a lecturer in aquatic community ecology non-lead alternatives were used. Contrary to the noble at the University of Essex. He has calculated that, if a Lord, Lord Krebs, I understand that the industry is commercial shooting estate offered a single day of taking positive voluntary steps to move away from hunting pheasants with an expected bag of 200 birds, lead shot, as well as single-use plastics, and on a a 1:3 kill ratio might be expected. Using a standard five-year timeline that allows for the development of game load of 32 grams of No. 5 lead shot, with each suitable alternatives that can equal the effectiveness of cartridge containing around 248 pellets, that would be lead. I do not, therefore, see that it is necessary to 25 kilograms of lead shot from just one day of fairly legislate for such a change, particularly in such a short typical shooting. As the academic says, you could timescale. argue for doing a full calculation across the country, The principal danger of setting an unduly short but timescale is that the industry is left with inadequate “it’s clear that it’s a lot” alternative loads, which will only increase the likelihood of injury and suffering to quarry. The essential of lead being put out into the environment—and development of alternatives will take time, and the wholly unnecessarily. industry, on which many thousands of rural jobs I also note a new study published in the British depend, particularly in deprived areas of north Devon, Ecological Society journal People and Nature, which should be permitted to take the time necessary to showed, as referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Browne, make these essential changes. that significant numbers of shooters are comfortable Finally,I note the considerable concern about children with moving away from lead shot. I also compliment eating lead. If we can get children and families eating the noble Lord on discovering that noble Lords in this game—pheasants and partridges—it will be a blessed House are protected from the risk of ingesting that lead; thing. If we can remove lead from the game before however, many children in our society still are not. they do so, it will be even better. 1583 Environment Bill [12 JULY 2021] Environment Bill 1584

The Duke of Montrose (Con) [V]: My Lords, it is a Earl, Lord Caithness, I single out Amendment 242, pleasure to follow the noble Earl, Lord Devon, and to which seeks to give an express power to Natural hear his expertise. I offer my support for Amendment England to amend, update or withdraw a species 235, so ably addressed by the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, conservation strategy. and others. I have sat with the noble Lord for a The point to which my noble friend Lord Krebs’s number of years, recently in our environment and amendment is directed is that a species conservation energy committees, and his grasp of environmental strategy—the “recovery of nature”, as he put it—needs issues and experience influenced many of our conclusions, careful planning if it is to achieve its objective. Natural so it is a pleasure to follow up by supporting this England, which will be responsible for producing these amendment. strategies, is well equipped to do this. It already has The Bill would be improved if the objectives on expertise in dealing with protected species and sites for which the conservation strategy should focus were in their conservation and protection, but the strategies the second paragraph of this clause. I, like many noble will have to be shared with and explained to local Lords, would like to see the Government bring forward planning authorities. Their full co-operation is essential their own list of objectives at the next stage of the Bill, to the success of this strategy. as most of us would not like to see the Secretary of State hand Natural England a completely blank sheet, 4 pm as if it were the inheritors of the desired Henry VIII There can be no doubt that this process will be powers. assisted by a clear understanding of the objective, and The Bill goes on to list the activities that Natural the careful, step-by-step approach that the amendment England will be required to fulfil in setting out its describes. Of particular interest is the reference to species conservation strategy. These would be clearer informing the definition of the favourable conservation and more focused if the objectives were listed. Of status of relevant species of fauna or flora. This is not course, any list may turn out not to be perfect and just about mitigation of loss. It is about planning for again, this spills over into what power there will be to the future, which every conservation strategy should make amendments and who will exercise it. This question seek to achieve. That requires a clear understanding of is similar to that in a later group of amendments we the level that conservation must achieve so that each will deal with, in which we will consider the powers a species within the habitat may be secure against loss of Secretary of State should have to amend regulations in that species in the future. That means that it needs the light of experience. protection against its possible competitors or predators The amendment moved by the noble Lord, and, indeed, against possible harm by commercial Lord Chidgey, is an example of the expertise he holds interests.Establishing this understanding and the research in this area. The House benefited from hearing from that will underpin it as one of the objectives will add him. real value to the success of this new strategy. That is My noble friend Lord Caithness has manyamendments why I am very much in support of this amendment. in this group, and I support him in his efforts to bring As for the amendment in the name of the noble greater clarity to these clauses. His Amendment 252 Earl, Lord Caithness, about the power to amend, relates to the clause dealing with wildlife conservation update or withdraw being given to Natural England, licences. When we were dealing with environmental its value really speaks for itself. It may be said by the targets, the Minister introduced an amendment that Minister that it is unnecessary, but there is no mention allows him to make regulations to manage species of any power to amend, update or withdraw in the abundance. As I am sure he is well aware—other noble recently published factsheet. An assurance by the Minister Lords have spoken of this—he may set the targets but, that Natural England will have this power anyway, as is increasingly accepted, much of this can be achieved and an explanation of where it is to be found, would only by other species management. Making sure that be very welcome. Unless the Minister can do that, I the legislation is fully appropriate is increasingly important. hope that he will accept this very sensible amendment, In this area, management becomes a question of having to add clarity to the Bill. feet on the ground. Only a few days ago on the “Farming Today” Lord Randall of Uxbridge (Con) [V]: My Lords, I programme, there was a report on an RSPB reserve—in am delighted to be speaking in this short debate. I Wiltshire, I think—which made sure that all its habitat added my name to Amendment 235, so well introduced was suitable for encouraging many endangered small by the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, but I have very little to birds. However, this did not happen until it began to add to what has been said. deal with what were termed “generous predators”—I The poor old great crested newt, which keeps getting find this a rather descriptive phrase—such as foxes, all mentioned, has had a bit of a bad press. I think it is kinds of corvids and stoats. My noble friend Lord because of its name, people saying that some of our Caithness’s amendment makes sure that the issue of laws and regulations make it difficult for developers licences is approached in a practical way. Experience and that “you only have to find a great crested newt in this field will be what counts, so I will listen with and that will stop it”, but even if it is not a flagship interest to the Minister’s response. iconic species, it is just as valuable. I mentioned the great crested newts of Uxbridge in my maiden speech Lord Hope of Craighead (CB) [V]: My Lords, I will in the other place in 1997. We have them in several add a few words in support of Amendment 235 in the very small pond reserves belonging to either the name of my noble friend Lord Krebs and others. Of London Wildlife Trust or the Herts and Middlesex the various amendments in the name of the noble Wildlife Trust. 1585 Environment Bill [LORDS] Environment Bill 1586

[LORD RANDALL OF UXBRIDGE] As we have heard, lead is acknowledged as a poison. I say to my noble friend Lady McIntosh of Pickering, It is banned in paints, petrol, fishing weights, water speaking as a member of the Bat Conservation Trust, and a raft of other products. Recently, nine major that bats have a highly protected status. They are quarry shooting associations—as I said, I am a member easily interfered with. There is an active “bats in of BASC—came together in a statement, saying that churches”study group, because bats can cause disruption their intention is for the shooting sports to cease the within churches, causing dismay to congregations, but use of lead shot, or toxic shot, within five years. they are far from common and increasing. Only the Waitrose, the supermarket chain, has told me that it other night I was delighted to use my bat detector to will sell only game shot with non-toxic shot from next discover some pipistrelles, the commonest species, flying year. The National Game Dealers Association, which around the garden. We must be careful. sells the vast majority of game-bird meat and game However, I support the idea that we want to be meat in general intends to do the same by July 2022. flexible in some of these areas. There are species that The vast majority of my game-shooting friends and may start off needing complete protection but do very acquaintances, and the majority of those to whom I well, and their position then endangers other species. speak in the game-shooting world, are already planning My noble friend Lord Caithness put it very well when to move to non-toxic shot in the coming season, he talked about managing these things. It is a mistake including myself. to think that we can just let nature take care of itself. The technology of steel shot, biodegradable wads The majority of our landscapes and habitats are manmade. and recyclable cartridge cases is being rapidly moved We interfere and if we are not careful, what we do can forward by cartridge manufacturers such as Eley Hawk. cause even more problems. Indeed, I am personally actively making the switch as I had forgotten about Amendment 293A. As the quickly as I can. The move away from lead shot is noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, said when gaining momentum all the way through America, introducing it, it is perhaps not in context with some Europe and other countries. of the others. I do not agree with the noble Earl, Lord Devon, that we need more time. We have had as much As the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor time as possible. The toxicity and the need to stop it Castle, said, the Lead Ammunition Group recently has been raised for years. I have been active on this for conducted a major inquiry into lead in shooting. I many years and my impression is that the game shooting have to say that it was not done just by the bird-watching organisations know that this is coming and will be enthusiasts, as she said; it was actually done by the prepared for it. I have spoken to cartridge makers and shooting world as well. It was led by a gentleman so on. They have alternatives. A lot of the ideas about called John Swift, who happened to be the chairman the alternatives not being as good have been proved of BASC at the time, so I think that it ought to have a incorrect. To score some points back with my noble little credit for that. friend Lady McIntosh of Pickering, the Danes have We have been around this lead racetrack, so to got it right. It does not interfere with the sport. It is a speak, ad infinitum. I repeat that lead is a poison—we toxic thing that should be removed. all know that. It should not be permitted to enter the If my noble friend the Minister wants some help on food chain, full stop.I agree with noble Lord, Lord Krebs, this, perhaps he can speak to the Treasury. If it could entirely: Her Majesty’s Government need to place all put an incredible surcharge on lead shot, perhaps we in the game-shooting industry in a position where they could force it out of the market, but the best way is to know with what timescale they must comply. This start by saying that it should not be used for killing would give assurance to them and mean that they can wild animals and birds. The toxicity of clay shoots is make the changes necessary. Many of them will have terrible because it is in the same area. In various places to retool equipment—as I say, lead shot is on its way they have had to close while they detoxify the area. It out—and manufacturers such as Eley Hawk are having is appalling and incredible that in the 21st century we to change their ways, and are doing so very successfully. still allow this toxic chemical to enter the food chain of not only wildlife but humans. However, this does not happen overnight. Many I say to the noble Earl, Lord Devon, that I welcome guns—London Best guns, for instance—that were built the use of game in diet. It is a great thing, but we a long time ago to shoot lead shot cannot shoot steel should not be doing it while there is lead in there. shot, so that has to be looked into as well. This is quite a complicated subject—not an easy “We’ll do it today” job. If the Government were to make up their mind The Earl of Shrewsbury (Con): My Lords, I will and push the shooting industry into this a little harder, speak to Amendment 293A tabled by the noble Lord, with a date that we know we comply with, that would Lord Browne of Ladyton, whom I congratulate on be a very good thing, and I would strongly support it. bringing this matter forward. I have added my name to the amendment. I declare an interest as a former The market for game and game meat is of course chairman of the Firearms Consultative Committee at substantial. The game dealers and the supermarkets the Home Office. I am a liveryman of the Worshipful are changing their ways. Waitrose tells me that, by the Company of Gunmakers, a former chairman and time it goes toxic-shot-free next year, it may well be former president of the British Shooting Sports Council, able to sell more than a million more game birds— a former president of the Gun Trade Association and that is just one supermarket chain. That is good for a member of BASC and the GWCT. I hope your the shooting industry. We need to be able to find Lordships will deduce that I know a little about shooting decent new markets where we can sell this excellent and lead shot. low-calorie meat. 1587 Environment Bill [12 JULY 2021] Environment Bill 1588

I am very aware that this amendment probably We cannot say that the industry has not had time to requires further work, so I ask my noble friend the act. I have been in this House for 10 years and remember Minister—we had a brief conversation outside the asking my first question when the Oxford symposium Chamber before this debate started—if he would very report of noble Lord, Lord Krebs, was published, kindly meet with the noble Lord, Lord Browne, and and the Government were at that time being rather me as soon as possible to discuss this further before laggardly in putting a response together. The industry Report. has known that this is coming—there are alternatives and it is time for it to act. I say to the industry—I am The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness sure that that it will not want to hear this from Pitkeathley) (Lab): The noble Baroness, Lady Neville- someone like me—that if it wants the support of rural Rolfe, has withdrawn, so I call the noble Baroness, communities for rural sports, it needs to be responsible. Lady Parminter. Alternatives that work are out there.There are alternatives that will save the health and mental ability of our Baroness Parminter (LD): My Lords, the discussion children. on this grouping has been quite lengthy. I echo the In a week when Henry Dimbleby will produce his comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of food strategy, to which the Government will have to Manor Castle, and the noble Duke, the Duke of respond, which is all about producing healthy,sustainable Montrose, in thanking my noble friend Lord Chidgey and affordable food, it would be absolute madness for for his excellent championing of chalk streams in this the Government not to act now. As the noble Lord, and earlier groupings. I very much hope that the Lord Krebs, so rightly put it, this is a no-brainer. We Government will respond positively to the suggestion need to do it to protect the health of our children of this new designation for chalk streams. I will not speak and ensure the health and well-being of domestic for long because most points have already been covered. animals and those in the environment. I implore the I added my name to Amendment 235 of the noble Government to listen to what has been said by Lord, Lord Krebs, on species conservation strategies, the majority of people around this Committee and the and I very much support his comments. We need to consensus on both sides of the debate—and to accept ensure that they support nature recovery and not this amendment. faster development. It is right that, as the comments that have been made by noble Lords around the Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab): We have had a Committee showed, there is unanimous support for really interesting debate—it has covered quite a lot of this amendment. That is indicative of the level of areas. I offer our strong support for Amendment 241 concern that we have about what the Government in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Chidgey. might be proposing in terms of future planning reforms I am enjoying our Committee debates, particularly coming down the track. If we can get this clear in the last week’s. Many concerns have been raised about the Environment Bill, that could give us some level of condition of our chalk streams. We know that they assurance. For those reasons, we on this Bench also have particularly pure, clear and constant water from support the 10 amendments of the noble Earl, Lord the underground chalk aquifers, and they flow across Caithness, who is looking to make these species gravel beds, which makes them absolutely perfect sources conservation strategies work better. They are a good of clean water and ideal for lots of wild creatures to tool, but they need to work better, so we support all breed and thrive in. However, we also know that too those amendments. many have been overused and undervalued, drained almost dry in places and polluted in others. Research 4.15 pm shows that a third of the water that we take from our Amendment 293A in the name of the noble Lord, rivers is wasted. The Angling Trust has said: Lord Browne of Ladyton, on lead shot has drawn the “The fate of England’s chalk streams is the litmus test in terms support of the majority of the Committee, although of how this country treats its environment.” not that of the noble Earl, Lord Devon, I note. Those So we thank the noble Lord, Lord Chidgey, for tabling noble Lords who know my background are aware that this amendment for better protections for our chalk I hold absolutely no brief for supporting the game streams, which are so badly needed. Again, I offer our industry, but it is a sign when people on both sides of strong support. the Committee—those who support the industry and Wealso strongly support Amendment 235, in the name those who have had concerns about a number of of the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, which would ensure country sports in the past—can come together to that the primary purpose of species conservation strategies support this amendment, which I do wholeheartedly. is to support the recovery of nature, rather than to I take issue with the noble Earl, Lord Devon: there facilitate faster development. As the noble Baroness, are plenty of alternatives, which the noble Earl, Lord Lady Parminter, said, the debate today has shown Shrewsbury, and the noble Lord, Lord Randall of huge support for his amendment. A strategic approach Uxbridge, mentioned. I commend the evidence not to species conservation is essential to preserving only from Denmark but also from the Netherlands, biodiversity and enabling nature’s recovery.This should which banned lead shot over 30 years ago. To my include protecting, restoring and creating habitat over certain knowledge, this has not reduced the number of a wider area to meet the needs of individual species. hunters in the Netherlands. The European Union is Strategic approaches to species conservation are clearly now looking to ban lead shot, and the industry is in essential. The noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of step with that. It is to the credit of the responsible end Pickering, talked about her experience of bats,for example. of the shooting fraternity that it supports this amendment. It is vital that we enable this recovery of nature. 1589 Environment Bill [LORDS] Environment Bill 1590

[BARONESS HAYMAN OF ULLOCK] also asked for assurances from the Minister about Between 2013 and 2018, 46% of conservation priority support for farmers and rural businesses. Again, this is species in England declined. We know that many of an important area that must not be forgotten. these species would benefit from a strategic plan resulting Turning to Amendment 293A, in the name of my in all relevant public bodies taking appropriate actions noble friend Lord Browne of Ladyton, I thank him for to save and restore them. The noble Duke, the Duke of his very detailed introduction. I also thank the noble Montrose, asked for clear objectives to be set out, and Earl,LordShrewsbury,forsharinghisextensiveknowledge this is clearly important. and experience of this matter.As the EU proceeds towards The proposal for species conservation strategies a ban on all lead ammunition, UK policy is lagging must also be understood in the context of the net-gain significantly behind the practices and organisational offsetting that we already discussed in Committee last policies of many ammunition users. As my noble week. Our fear is that there could be unintended friend Lord Browne said so eloquently, there are no consequences. The noble Lord, Lord Krebs, outlined safe levels of lead—it affects all major body systems of his concerns that, sadly, the overall result could be to animals, including humans. As the noble Earl, Lord allow the destruction of habitats and protected species Shrewsbury, said, regulation has ensured removal of in return for new habitat creation elsewhere. A developer lead from petrol, paint and drinking water. The last could be licensed to proceed with activities that destroy largely unregulated release of lead into our environment habitats and species in return for contributing to habitats is from lead ammunition. We have heard that non-toxic that support the wider population of that species. We ammunition is widely available, and guidance on its share the noble Lord’s concern that this could allow a use is provided on the website of the British Association developer to proceed without protecting every specimen for Shooting and Conservation—BASC. of a protected species and without always undertaking We have also heard in this debate that the UK the appropriate site-specific survey work. We do not shooting community is preparing for change, which is want to speed up development and reduce costs, which coming, but voluntary efforts to move away from lead would ultimately do the opposite of what the Bill is shot have always failed. We need leadership from trying to achieve. government, with legislation, if this change is going to The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, happen. As the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor mentioned the importance of planning authorities Castle, said, this amendment is deliverable. Finally, I having a clear understanding of what is required, and ask the Minister: what progress is his department this will be needed if these proposals are to be implemented making in bringing this legislation forward and ending well. We need to contribute to the conservation of this practice? certain species but, if that is managed badly or applied inappropriately, we could end up with it being nothing The Minister of State, Department for the Environment, more than a shortcut to getting around some of the Food and Rural Affairs and Foreign, Commonwealth protected species obligations. Can the Minister confirm and Development Office (Lord Goldsmith of Richmond that, where species conservation strategies are used in Park) (Con): I will start with Amendment 234, tabled cases of development planning, species’needs will dictate by the noble Lord, Chidgey, and Amendment 235, the outcome, with the overriding presumption and tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, but first I will priority being for on-site or local, rather than off-site, offer some words on the overall objectives of species mitigations? Will he also confirm that biodiversity net conservation strategies. The strategies will be developed gains will be additional to meeting the legal and policy by Natural England for species that are under threat requirements within the species conservation strategies? and would benefit from a more strategic and focused We are looking for some serious reassurance from approach to improve their conservation status. They the Minister that the species conservation strategies will identify priorities for the species and bring together will not lead to perverse outcomes. We need to ensure relevant public authorities, ENGOs and any other that they are delivering gains for nature rather than interested parties to identify the bespoke solutions gains for developers.Can he also confirm that site-specific needed to tackle the threat each species faces. impact assessments at the time of planning or of other I understand the intention of the noble Lord, consent applications will still be carried out to ensure Lord Krebs, to ensure that the strategies contribute to that all impacts are identified and addressed? We need nature’s recovery, but Clause 102 already guarantees assurance that each strategy will be framed around the this. In line with the intention behind the measure, conservation objectives of the sites concerned, as well subsection (1) specifically defines the purpose of a as any other conservation considerations. strategy as: I will now move on to the amendments tabled by “for improving the conservation status of any species of fauna or the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, who made some very flora.” important points in his introduction. I am sure that Subsection (4) elaborates on the elements that the noble Lords will support his important aim; all we strategy may contain, including creating and enhancing want to do is to make this part of the Bill work better, habitats with the explicit purpose and his amendments ably try to do that. We need to “of improving the conservation status of the species”. look to wider concerns that encompass all factors, not The mitigation hierarchyis also set out in subsection (4), just habitats. The noble Earl made an important point as we are clear that each species will require a bespoke when he talked about management being a forgotten approach to avoidance or mitigation of harm or the activity that will help deliver success to our conservation creation of compensatory habitat. It is important that strategies, and the noble Lord, Lord Randall of Uxbridge, Natural England is given a power in the Bill to create supported him in that. The noble Earl, Lord Devon, strategies where they are likely to have the biggest 1591 Environment Bill [12 JULY 2021] Environment Bill 1592 possible impact. Changing “may”to “must”, as suggested look at the recommendations when the final strategy is by Amendment 234, would therefore change that power published, including any recommendations on providing into a duty to create strategies, and this would place an further protection for chalk streams. unreasonable obligation on Natural England to create I welcome the interest from my noble friend a very large number of strategies, including for species Lord Caithness in the operation of the strategies. On which would see little or no benefit. We think that it his Amendment 236, we are keen to avoid adding rigid makes more sense for Natural England to focus its requirements for formal consultation that might delay resources where strategies can provide the most benefit putting the strategies into effect. We recognise that we for key species in decline. will not be able to deliver the best strategies without Natural England is already working with relevant consulting the experts, a point that he made. Natural conservation groups to develop the first strategies; England is already working closely with NGO partners others are in the pipeline, including—to answer the such as Wildlife and Countryside Link to draft the noble Lord, Lord Krebs’s question—for the principles for the design and operation of the strategies, dormouse and water vole. I think he said that it is also which will be published in due course. However, adding the case that the district-level licensing approach is not requirements for formal consultation would delay putting considered to be something that would work for bats. those strategies into effect and add unnecessary hurdles That is our view as well, so we will not be using that to getting them into operation, which is clearly our approach. priority. On Amendment 241, I share the determination of I say in response to the noble and learned Lord, the noble Lord, Lord Chidgey, to protect our chalk Lord Hope of Craighead, that Section 14 of the streams, as many noble Lords do. Restoring our Interpretation Act states that the power to make internationally recognised and important chalk streams regulations implies the power to revoke, amend or is already a government priority. Species conservation re-enact them. In our view, that is analogous with the strategies, however, are bespoke, targeted measures to power for Natural England to prepare statutory strategies help protect specific species at risk. Although they will such as the species conservation strategies. by their nature and design help restore the habitats and ecosystems without which those species cannot On my noble friend Lord Caithness’s other flourish, they are not the best mechanism for achieving amendments, which I shall not list, the clause as that specific aim. While activities to help a particular drafted is intended to be flexible to allow strategies to species may involve necessary actions to improve habitats be prepared for any species where it will help deliver such as chalk streams, the focus needs to remain on better conservation outcomes. These proposals risk the species itself. constraining that flexibility. Specifying elements which “must”be included in a strategy would be unnecessarily rigid, as some elements may not be appropriate; for 4.30 pm example, not all species require “consents or approvals” For example, I mentioned that Natural England is related to granting planning permission, which is one working with NGO partners to develop a strategy for of the elements set out in the clause. The power to water voles. Given that water voles are often found amend a strategy includes the power to withdraw it, if living along chalk streams, any plan for their conservation needed. Requiring a formal review,including consultation, will invariably include measures to protect chalk stream which could add weeks or months, could delay that habitat, but it would need to go further and wider to process, hindering Natural England’s discretion to ensure that all other vole habitat was included in the make improvements and its ability to make changes strategy.I know that the noble Lord is a strong advocate rapidly if needed. for chalk streams. I assure him that the Government are already working with stakeholders to develop an My noble friend asked me whether the Secretary of action plan to restore and protect our valuable chalk State’s powers in relation to the general licence remain streams. intact. The current system is being looked at; the commitment is that it will be updated if necessary. If It was said powerfully by the noble Lord as well as there is an update beyond what I have just said, I will by others, including the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, write to him with details after this debate. that chalk streams in their natural condition are home to an extraordinary profusion of natural life. Botanically, The noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, asked whether they are the most biodiverse of all English rivers. They net gain is additional to the species conservation strategies offer a colossal range of habitat niches for invertebrates, or the protected site strategies. The answer is yes. fish, birds and mammals. Brown trout and Atlantic I thank the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, salmon are indigenous to all English chalk streams for his Amendment 293A. The Government fully support and they provide fantastic habitat for the otter, water the principle of addressing the impacts of lead in vole, water shrew and more besides. As we know, the ammunition. He is also right that I want action in this water vole has suffered extreme decline, mostly as a area and have spoken on this issue numerous times in consequence of the release of the American mink. the past. As he knows, the Government have asked the Chalk streams where the mink is absent or where Health and Safety Executive to produce a UK REACH trapping regularly happens provide extraordinary habitat restriction dossier on the risks posed by lead in where the vole can reach high densities. ammunition. We made that request in March this One of the draft recommendations of the chalk year. The noble Lord’s amendment would prohibit use stream restoration group is that chalk streams be of lead shot in shotguns for the purposes of killing or given an overarching protection and priority status. taking any wild bird or wild animal, but it does not The strategy is being consulted on right now. We will address the use of lead ammunition in other situations, 1593 Environment Bill [LORDS] Environment Bill 1594

[LORD GOLDSMITH OF RICHMOND PARK] of the chalk stream restoration strategy report, which such as clay pigeon or target shooting, where lead I understand will be submitted to government in poisoning will also occur. We want and need to tackle September. That being the case, I look forward to that too. going with colleagues and friends into discussions The Government have asked the Health and Safety with government beyond then to see whether we can Executive to consider a wider and more ambitious address these issues, which are so important to our restriction than the amendment currently seeks. I native land. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. appreciate the noble Lord’s intention in proposing the amendment. It is a key issue, and I warmly welcome Amendment 234 withdrawn. this debate. As the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, said, it really is a no-brainer. As a number of noble Lords Amendments 235 to 245 not moved. have commented, the voluntary methods that have been in play so far have not worked. Reductions in the Clause 102 agreed. use of lead have been unimpressive, and, as my noble friend Lord Randall said, alternatives exist. I say with Clause 103: Protected site strategies no disrespect to him that my noble friend Lord Shrewsbury made the same argument, and his CV is surely second Amendments 246 to 251 not moved. to none on this issue. I am extremely happy to agree to meet him at a time that suits him and will be in touch Clause 103 agreed. after the debate. Throughout our debates this afternoon, we have The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness heard passionate speeches from noble Lords about the Pitkeathley) (Lab): We now come to Amendment 251A. importance of conservation. I hope I have assured Anyone wishing to press this amendment to a Division them of the role of species conservation strategies as must make that clear in debate. just another, very important tool at our disposal to address the issues affecting our most sensitive habitats Amendment 251A and species in a way that is tailored to local needs and Moved by Baroness Jones of Whitchurch encourages innovative approaches. I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment. 251A: After Clause 103, insert the following new Clause— “Protection of National Parks The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness (1) In exercising their functions under— Pitkeathley) (Lab): My Lords, I have received one (a) this Act, request to speak after the Minister, from the noble (b) any subordinate legislation made under this Act, or Lord, Lord Randall of Uxbridge. (c) any legislation amended by this Act, Lord Randall of Uxbridge (Con) [V]: My Lords, I a public authority must determine whether and how the heard what my noble friend the Minister said regarding carrying out of such functions would impact on the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, National Parks. Lord Browne of Ladyton. Does he not agree that even (2) If a public authority determines that their actions would if we banned the use of lead ammunition in killing have a material impact on National Parks, that authority wild birds and animals, although it would not address must— target and clay pigeon shooting, surely that would set (a) have regard to the purposes of National Parks specified in section 5(1) of the National Parks and the whole thing off? Would it not be a great first move Access to the Countryside Act 1949, and to make? (b) so far as practicable, act in a manner that is Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con): I am very consistent with supporting those purposes. keen for us to make progress as quickly as we can. I (3) Section 11A of the National Parks and Access to the understand frustrations with the REACH process. My Countryside Act 1949 (duty of certain bodies and persons understanding is that that process is best placed to to have regard to the purposes for which National Parks are designated) is amended as follows— deliver the change we need despite the time that it takes. If it is possible to move more quickly, given that (a) in subsection (2), after “land” insert “or the special qualities found”; we know that the science is pretty clear and that alternatives exist, I would certainly be open to pursuing (b) after subsection (2) insert— those opportunities. If my noble friend would like to “(2A) All relevant authorities have a duty to co-operate join me in my meeting with my noble friend in the production and implementation of any relevant National Park Management Plans.”; Lord Shrewsbury, he would be very welcome. (c) after subsection (3) insert— Lord Chidgey (LD): I thank all noble Lords and “(3A) In subsection (2A) of this section “National noble Baronesses who have spoken in support of my Park Management Plans” means any relevant plan amendment. The vigour of the debate was very or plans published under section 66 of the Environment encouraging for me and my fellow Hampshire men Act 1995 (National Park Management Plans).”” and women who are trying to do something to protect Member’s explanatory statement our environment and the habitats that we have lived This new Clause would ensure that where the decisions of with and cherished throughout our lives. public authorities impact on national parks, relevant authorities must have regard to the purposes laid out in section 5(1) of the I also thank the Minister for his remarks. It is 1949 Act. In addition, the Clause amends inserted section 11A of encouraging that the Government are taking this issue that Act to strengthen provisions around protecting the special seriously and are already debating with the proprietors characteristics of national parks. 1595 Environment Bill [12 JULY 2021] Environment Bill 1596

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab): My Lords, I noble Lord, Lord Cameron, was a member of that declare an interest as a member of the South Downs committee. Last month the Government published National Parks Authority. The 10 national parks in their response to the report, to which the Minister England are crucial for delivering our strategy for referred when we debated earlier amendments. One of nature recovery and enhanced landscapes. They cover the report’s recommendations is: 10% of our land, while hosting a third of the nation’s “The existing duty of regard is too weak. We believe public international wildlife sites. They have a mission to bodies should be required to help further their purposes and the create more habitats where wildlife can flourish and be aims and objectives of individual national landscapes Management enjoyed, while developing strong local partnerships Plans.” with communities, farmers and businesses to make the Since then, much of the emphasis of the report, the parks a living and creative space. debate around it and the Government’s response has They are all too aware of the significant responsibility been concerned with the structure and governance of they carry to boost diversity and deliver the commitment national parks. For example, there was a proposal to to protect 30% of our land by 2030. Indeed, my own increase the number of national parks and for them to authority has plans to go further than that. Meeting be bought under the oversight of a national landscape this challenge is currently hampered by the limitation service—an issue we can debate another time. of the powers authorities currently have under the National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act 4.45 pm 1949. In a phrase that will be familiar to noble Lords We are concerned that some of the wider in other contexts, this section requires all relevant recommendations of the Glover review will be authorities to “have regard to” national park purposes overshadowed, when there is a clear case to strengthen while carrying out functions that might affect a national the role of individual national parks in working in park. Sadly, “have regard to” is open to many partnership with local communities to create the beautiful interpretations and as a result there have been many and diverse landscapes, based on local nature recovery examples of public authorities effectively ignoring this strategies, that we all desire. To do this effectively, the duty and putting their own interests first. powers need to be strengthened. In the forthcoming There are many examples from around the 10 parks, consultation on the Glover proposals, will we get a but let me give you a couple from the South Downs chance to comment on these broader issues? Will the national park to illustrate the point. Highways England Minister agree to meet to discuss how these objectives came up with a proposed new route for the A27 could best be captured in any legislation that follows around Arundel, which went through the middle of that review? In the meantime, I beg to move the the national park. It was hugely unpopular. It had amendment. failed to have regard to the national park’s status or to co-operate with it in drawing up the proposals. In the Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con): My Lords, I end, it pulled out of a judicial review just before the am delighted to contribute to this brief debate on hearing, and the South Downs national park was Amendment 251A and I welcome the opportunity to awarded costs, but a lot of time and money could have talk about the purposes of national parks. As in an been saved if it had had a stronger duty to support and earlier debate, it is important to read across to what co-operate with the park in the first place. other users of national parks are being asked to do in relation to the Agriculture Act. In considering protections On a slightly different level, the Forestry Commission for national parks, it is entirely appropriate to look has built car parks in our national park that have no those who have wider interests than just maintaining a connection to the park’s attempts to manage visitor high level of biodiversity and promoting the enjoyment numbers and traffic flows to ensure an overall good of the ecosystem, very important though that is. visitor experience. Here, I would like to mention in particular the The national parks are proud of the work they are interests of farmers, landowners, land managers and doing to develop partnerships with local public bodies, tourism providers. Regarding the Agriculture Act and including the production of national park management the read-across to the Environment Bill and public plans, but this intent has to be reciprocated and this is money for public goods, how do we expect national not always currently the case. parks, farmers, land managers and those plying the In the meantime, the Government rightly have high trade of tourism to actually be allowed to do the work expectations of the national parks and the role they we are asking them to do? It is extremely important to will play in nature recovery and transforming farming better integrate farming, land management and, indeed, in protected landscapes, but the parks need the powers rural development objectives and advice in this regard. necessary to deliver this ambition. This is why I have Could my noble friend elaborate on how the public tabled my amendment, which would strengthen the goods and productivity strands of the Agriculture need for public bodies not only to “have regard to” the Act, the Bill and future policy will operate to ensure purposes of national parks under the 1949 Act but to that that happens harmoniously? act in a manner consistent with these purposes. It I pay tribute to all those involved in national parks— would build in the co-operation and consultation which tourism and farming in particular have had a very already happens successfully with many public authorities difficult time. Obviously, I am most familiar with the and make it the norm for all. North York Moors National Park, but I had some Noble Lords will know that two years ago, the experience of the Lake District National Park when I committee overseeing the Glover report on the national was a candidate there a number of years ago. It is parks published its review; I was pleased to see that the important that we celebrate all that farmers, land 1597 Environment Bill [LORDS] Environment Bill 1598

[BARONESS MCINTOSH OF PICKERING] to the three in Wales, I know they may be a devolved managers and those supporting tourism in the national matter, but the facts about them still indicate the huge parks do. I hope my noble friend will confirm that significance of national parks generally. The Brecon “having regard to” does relate to these other interests, Beacons, the Pembrokeshire coast and Snowdonia and that they will not be compromised in any shape or cover 20% of the land surface of Wales. They have a form. Perhaps she can put a little more meat on the resident population of 80,000 people and account for bones of what we are going to ask them to do in terms over £0.5 billion of Wales’ gross added value—some of public money for public goods, through ELMS, in 1.2% of the Welsh economy. They are internationally the context of the Environment Bill and the Agriculture important examples of how working landscapes can Act. be protected. The noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, has set out one Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP) [V]: My of the two purposes of national parks as set out in Lords, it is a great pleasure to again follow the noble Section 5(1) of the 1949 national parks Act. These two Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, and to speak purposes clearly chime in beautifully with the Environment in support of Amendment 251A in the names of the Bill now before us, and it is therefore very important noble Baronesses, Lady Jones of Whitchurch and that they should have a specific clause within the Bill. Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville. Indeed, I Although there are legal protections for them under would have attached my name to it, had I not missed it. the 1949 Act, we live at a time when there is a desperate The case has already been very clearly made that we need, for example, for more affordable housing. The need strengthened protections for national parks—“have Government have made this a priority, and some of regard to”is simply not strong enough in this legislation. the checks and balances that used to be in place, in the I think it is worth going back to the purposes of form of the ability to prevent a particular scheme national parks in the 1949 Act, which include going forward, are being eroded. We saw one public “conserving and enhancing the natural beauty, wildlife and cultural reaction to this recently in the Chesham and Amersham heritage of the areas specified”. by-election. This goes back to a debate that we had some weeks The amendment before us would ensure that any ago about how cultural and natural heritage are linked, local authority seeking planning permission in a national but the main point to make on Amendment 251A is park would have to take fully into account the legal about “conserving and enhancing” wildlife. purpose of the park. The Minister may argue that Just last week we saw a campaign launched to raise there are enough protections already in the 1949 Act £100 million to renature 13,000 hectares of land on but, given that the national parks are such a crucial the South Downs. There was much pride about the feature of our environment and that the pressure for fact that this would mean that 33% of the national new housing is now so intense, it is appropriate that park is managed for nature, which reports suggested there is a special clause in the Bill which keeps these exceeds a UN-backed target of 30% by 2030. Of protections firmly in the mind of all those drawing up course, that is a target for all of the countryside; one applications in those areas.Of course, the noble Baroness, might reasonably expect that to be much higher in our Lady Jones of Whitchurch, has mentioned some of national parks. Indeed, you would like to see that the pressures—for example, from motorways—but figure going somewhere towards 100%. Of course, possible housing developments may perhaps be on the that does not mean that you cannot have agricultural edge of a national park. No doubt it would be unthinkable production associated with that; we are back to a very for a local authority to try to put up a new housing long-running debate about sparing versus sharing. estate in the middle of a national park, but there could But we must note that what we are doing now is not be building, industrial or waste developments on the strong enough. We have to do much more, and we edge of a national park, which would have serious need the Environment Bill to do it. implications for its protected environment. Totake just one example, the Yorkshire Dales National At a time of increasing pressure, the proposed new Park is a notorious black hole for raptors. When the clause before us comes under the heading of “You national park did a consultation with the public about can’t be too careful”, and I support it. its management, the illegal persecution of raptors was one of the issues most raised. Just a few months The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness ago, we saw a hideous video released by the RSPB Pitkeathley) (Lab): The noble Baroness, Lady Neville- investigations team of two buzzards being lured to Rolfe, is not speaking on this group, so I call the noble their deaths in the area. Earl, Lord Lytton. We also really need to think about whether there are not—and I am sure there are—more areas of the The Earl of Lytton (CB) [V]: My Lords, I declare an country that need to be protected, whether it is as a interest as a property owner with tourism interests national park or in some other way, as the Glover within the Exmoor National Park, going back very review highlights. The South Pennines has been identified many years, and I have professionally had an involvement as a prime candidate for a different approach as the with several other UK national parks. only upland region in England that does not currently I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, have not a legal designation. for giving me advance warning when she tabled this amendment and for giving us an opportunity to have Lord Harries of Pentregarth (CB) [V]: My Lords, this debate. At an earlier point in our Committee, I the 15 national parks in the UK are indeed a natural had, through my own fault, a rather awkwardly grouped treasure and one of the glories of our country, some of pair of amendments—Amendments 290 and 291—on them have a worldwide reputation. To confine myself an enlargement of national park purposes, which were 1599 Environment Bill [12 JULY 2021] Environment Bill 1600 not actually moved in that group. Although they have “Protection for interests in countryside”. got a bit lost in the system, I am glad that I have some Section 37 was further amended by the Wildlife and opportunity to make a few of the points here. In any Countryside Act 1981, the Natural Environment and event, I would rather raise them in the context of Rural Communities Act 2006 and the Natural Resources Amendment 251A. Body for Wales (Functions) Order 2013. As I interpret I have enormous sympathy with this amendment. the audit trail, it remains in force. It is therefore For many people, the immediate reaction might be to perhaps appropriate that I read out what I believe ask why any adjacent authority would not have regard Section 37 now states: to national park purposes. But, recalling my own “In the exercise of their functions under this Act, the Act of experiences, I can appreciate that this might not be so. 1949 and the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 it shall be the The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, referred to the A27 at duty of every Minister, and of Natural England, the NRBW … Arundel. Of course, as a Sussex resident, I am quite and local authorities to have due regard to the needs of agriculture familiar with the long-running saga of how to deal and forestry and to the economic and social interests of rural areas.” with the discontinuity on parts of the A27. But, as the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, mentioned, However, I can confirm that this bit about having this is a two-way affair. National park authorities do “due regard” is sometimes not regarded at all, duly or not, after all, have full jurisdiction over all areas of otherwise. It may be that highway safety and convenience local government authority and other aspects. It follows is not regarded as an “economic and social interest”, that they must at the very least, for their part, be able but unless the Minister or any other noble Lord can to co-operate with those bodies that exercise jurisdiction tell me that Section 37 does not apply at all, I suggest in the areas they do not control, including highways, that there are already provisions in place governing police, infrastructure, building control, fire and rescue, the degree of economic reciprocities that local authorities, services and communications, and those sorts of things. and national parks with them, all too often overlook. I In the past, I have attended meetings on site within noted what the noble Earl, Lord Devon, said in the national parks to discuss, in one case, the improvement previous group on the question of economic reality. I of an admittedly dangerous farm track exiting on to get that. an unrestricted A-class road. The meeting had been It is worth bearing in mind that, within national triggered by an incident at that location which could parks, a great deal of the landscape that is cherished easily have been fatal for a motorcycle rider. But, as it and valued, and the ecological richness often associated turned out, this matter seemed to be of little concern with it, is fashioned by hundreds of years of land in national park policy terms. The improvement required management, not least farming and animal husbandry. would have involved the removal of some length of Does the Minister agree that reciprocity in the recognition hedgerow to improve sight lines. Of course, that could of various local authority and other statutory functions, have been replicated on the back of the visibility as between national park authorities and others having splays, as opposed to immediately adjacent to the various statutory functions, continues to pertain? More current road, but that was not acceptable to the national particularly, where there are differences, how best might park authority, despite the obvious problems for farm these be mediated and settled? Secondly, on the question movements and the safety of highway users. As far as of economic and social interest, does she agree that I know, the dangerous exit remains some 20 years later. Section 37 of the Countryside Act 1968, as amended, But I find it very difficult to understand that conservation still applies and should be respected? Following this issues should be unable to take account of public last, what does she feel will be the long-term consequences safety or the orderly exercise of farming activities. In of inadequately taking these factors into account? another instance, a national park authority apparently permitted substantial works for the installation of a bulk LPG tank for commercial purposes but did not Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD): realise that, without an adequate lay-by in addition, the My Lords, it is a pleasure to speak in support of necessary tanker delivering fuel would totally block a Amendment 251A in the name of the noble Baroness, narrow unclassified road serving a lot of properties and Lady Jones of Whitchurch, to support the protection would do so for periods of up to half an hour at a time. of our national parks. The issue of breadth of policy and analysis is not National parks are havens for birds, animals, fish helped when narrow thinking occurs, and local and humans seeking respite from the cares of daily government in all its forms, including national park life. They exist all over the world, from Chile up authorities, is not proof against this. I could quote through North America and across Europe. We are many other examples of the sort of thing I have already exceptionally lucky to have a wide variety of national mentioned. I think that the potential flashpoints—if I parks sprinkled across the whole country,from Cornwall can call them that—are likely to expand, as our most to Wales and up to the Cairngorms in Scotland. Each recent cohort of national parks have incorporated has its own individuality and beauty, sometimes gentle more urban areas within their boundaries. but often rugged and wild. The noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, mentioned their role in 5 pm tourism. The National Parks and Access to the Countryside These national parks are currently protected by the Act 1949, which created the national parks in the first National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act 1949, place, was subsequently amended by Section 37 of the but this should not allow us to take them for granted. Countryside Act 1968. Annotated in a margin of that Amendment 251A inserts a new clause into the Bill to latter Act are the words: provide some protection for the parks when public 1601 Environment Bill [LORDS] Environment Bill 1602

[BARONESS BAKEWELL OF HARDINGTON MANDEVILLE] That is why the Government commissioned the authorities are making decisions which could affect independent Landscapes Review, which set out a neighbouring national parks. The duties under the compelling vision for more beautiful, more biodiverse 1949 Act are supported by guidance from Defra, but and more accessible national parks and areas of this guidance is out of date and was last updated in outstanding natural beauty. The panel’s report 2005—it is not available on the Natural England website recommended strengthening the duty on public bodies and refers to the now extinct regional development to have regard to the purposes of the national parks agencies and government regional offices. The current and to support implementation of management plans. duty provides a backstop when conflict arises between This would have a very similar effect to the proposed competing interests. However, national parks see this amendment from the noble Baroness. as a last resort. In a Written Ministerial Statement of 24 June, the The noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, Government committed to address the review’s laid out the reasons why the duty should be strengthened recommendations in full and consult on draft proposals and gave excellent examples of lack of forethought on later this year. Those draft proposals will address this the part of public bodies. National parks have recommendation. This has been an unprecedented management plans; these should be promoted with year for the country, so work since the review was public bodies, which should have due regard to them. published has indeed been delayed, but the Government The protected characteristics of national parks should are working very closely with partners on their response be preserved and public bodies should have regard to to it. Wehave committed to address its recommendations both the characteristics and management plans, but in full and to consult on draft proposals later this year. this is very weak in terms of compliance and protection. I am of course very happy to meet the noble Baroness, I fear I will go off on a tangent for a moment. Lady Jones of Whitchurch, as part of the consultation, During the passage of the ill-fated Housing and Planning or we can discuss it earlier if that would be helpful. Bill, there was discussion about affordable housing for The Government support the intention of the noble those working in the parks and young people. This Baroness to ensure that our public bodies work together was in reference to Exmoor National Park, which the more effectively in our national parks. We all agree noble Earl, Lord Lytton, referred to. There were there has been a problem here. We are currently working agricultural workers, farmhands, firefighters and other closely with partners, including the national park essential workers who worked in the park but could authorities, to consider how best to achieve that aim not afford to live there. The noble and right reverend through our response to the review. However, we cannot Lord, Lord Harries of Pentregarth, referred to the accept this amendment, as it is important to work with pressure for housing but suggested that it should be on our partners and consult on any such changes before the edge of the parks. While protecting national parks, changing the law, particularly to understand potential I urge them all to have provision for affordable homes implications for those public bodies likely to be affected. included in their management plans to enable those The Landscapes Review found strong evidence that working in them—those who would like to—to be able public bodies are failing to have adequate regard to to live nearer to their place of work. Unnecessary the statutory purposes of the national parks. It also travel adds to climate change and pollution. Living found that the effectiveness of the management plans close to your place of work on a national park means is limited by poor implementation by local partners, you may be able to cycle or walk to work. including public bodies. The Government take this The noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, finding seriously and are working with partners to supported the argument that the current protection consider carefully how to address it. measures are not strong enough, and I agree with her. This amendment gives reassurance and provides the A number of noble Lords raised the question of mechanism for local authorities and other public bodies— infrastructure plans in the national parks. The 2010 such as the MoD, which operates on Dartmoor and National Parks Circular and the National Planning on the borders of other national parks—to take account Policy Framework are very clear that national parks, of how their actions may affect the park, access to it the Broads and areas of outstanding natural beauty and those living or working in or visiting the park in are not appropriate locations for major development. future. It should be remembered that people live in the I will look into the specific cases that they raised and parks. National parks should not be wrapped in cotton provide more detail on those if appropriate. wool as anachronistic relics. They should be assisted I also assure the Committee that, since the Glover to be fit for purpose today but protected from harmful review was published, the Government have been developments. I fully support this important amendment. supporting important work in our protected landscapes through our nature for climate fund and green recovery Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con): My challenge fund to restore nature, tackle climate change Lords, I welcome Amendment 251A from the noble and connect communities with the natural environment. Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, and the The Government have also recently announced their contributions of all those who spoke about the importance new farming in protected landscapes programme, which of our national parks, on which I think we are all will provide additional investment to allow farmers agreed. From the meres and hills of the Lake District and other land managers to work in partnership with to the chalk of the South Downs—and a lot of Wales, our national park authorities to deliver bigger and I must add—they are some of our most valuable better outcomes for the environment, communities landscapes. and places. 1603 Environment Bill [12 JULY 2021] Environment Bill 1604

My noble friend Lady McIntosh asked a number of 5.15 pm questions, particularly on ELMS. This funding will The noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries of help to drive forward delivery of the Landscapes Review Pentregarth, reminded us of the two duties of conservation on people, access, nature and job creation, responding and recreation in the parks. He rightly raised the issue to the public appetite from Covid-19 for better access of housing: again, this has this been touched on by to nature. Specifically, the fund should help to support several noble Lords. I can assure him that it is not a delivery of the Landscapes Review recommendations dead zone. There is sympathetic housing construction on connecting more people to protected landscapes, taking place in the national parks, but I agree absolutely delivering the new environmental land management with the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, that we need schemes, increasing the diversity of visitors through to deliver more affordable homes in that area and that tourism, creating landscapes which cater for health really needs to be the challenge. The noble and right and well-being, expanding volunteers and rangers and reverend Lord, Lord Harries, was absolutely right that providing better information and signs. Specifically, what we do not want are huge estates in the national this funding will help farmers to shift towards delivering parks, or even on the edge of the parks. That is environmental benefits which, in the future, could be because—as we know, because we have debated this supported by environmental land management, several times—one of the issues is the challenge to the particularly the components that support local nature Knepp estate: it is not actually in a national park but it and landscape recovery. is very close to it and it is threatened with a huge I thank the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, for his housing estate on its borders, which would not be contribution. Sadly, I have not been able to receive beneficial to anyone. divine intervention quite in time to respond to his The noble Earl, Lord Lytton, had his own list of specific questions, particularly about earlier legislation, concerns about the national parks. In my experience, but I will write to him and put a copy in the Library. the national parks have not always worked in consultation I hope that I have now provided assurance to the with all of the public bodies around, and in particular noble Baroness that we share her aims for national with the farming communities. I would hate him to parks: we just need a bit more time to work with think that they just ride roughshod over the farming public bodies, including national parks themselves, to community: that has not been my experience. Of course, get this right. I therefore hope she will agree to withdraw there are economic activities in the national parks. her amendment. They are very much at the heart of everything that we do. Again, they are not dead zones just for nature: we Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab): My Lords, I want them to be living and thriving communities. The thank all noble Lords for their contributions to this local businesses and people who live there are very short debate. I agree with the noble Baroness, much part of that, so we need to have thriving economic Lady Bakewell, that we are blessed with very special activity to keep those places alive and provide jobs for national parks, each one unique in its own way. As we people. We have to be careful, however, about loading have heard from the contributions, everybody has too much on to the national parks. There are other their favourite and the particular one that they are a bodies that have a primary responsibility for economic cheerleader for. We sometimes take the national parks activities, and we should not necessarily place a major for granted, but the experience over the last 18 months new layer of responsibility on the shoulders of the has ensured that they are back in the front line and are national parks. rightly seen as the national treasures that they really Finally, I welcome the Minister’s response and the are. They have played an important part in people’s news that those draft proposals will be later this year—I sanity, and mental health, over the last period. think she was explicit about that. We obviously look I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, forward to seeing the detail of that. I would welcome that the national parks have to be integrated into the the opportunity to talk to the Minister to understand work of the Agriculture Act—an issue that we addressed a little bit more about what is intended with the earlier when we talked about joined-up policies—and consultation, so I will take her up on that offer. In the it is important that they play a rightful role in the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. rollout of ELMS. We welcome the Government’s proposals for farming in protected landscapes and the Amendment 251A withdrawn. additional investment that will come from that, because the farming community in the national parks has to work in a way that is properly sympathetic to the Clause 104: Wildlife conservation: licences landscape that we are hoping to develop there. There are special challenges, but also great benefits if we get Amendment 252 not moved. this right. The noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, mentioned the Clause 104 agreed. South Downs ambition of 33% to protect our landscapes. I agree that we should be ambitious: every national Amendments 253 and 254 not moved. park is unique and will have different constraints. South Downs has an awful lot of people living there The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord McNicol and a lot of businesses already operating there. Obviously, of West Kilbride) (Lab): We now come to the group we need to push to the limits of our capacity in order beginning with Amendment 255. Anyone wishing to to make sure that nature recovery takes place in the press this or anything else in the group to a Division widest possible area. We will obviously do that. must make that clear in the debate. 1605 Environment Bill [LORDS] Environment Bill 1606

Clause 105: Habitats Regulations: power to amend He may point to the fact that Clause 105 has safeguards general duties built in, such as the requirement in subsection (7) that the Secretary of State must be “satisfied that the regulations do not reduce the level of environmental Amendment 255 protection provided by the Habitats Regulations.” Moved by Lord Krebs He may also say that Clause 105(9) requires the Secretary of State to 255: Clause 105, page 106, line 7, leave out “instead of” and “consult such persons as the Secretary of State considers appropriate”, insert “in addition to” although we should note that this is a rather vague Member’s explanatory statement commitment; we do not know who the “persons” are. This amendment would allow the Conservation of Habitats and Species Regulations 2017 to be amended to further new The Minister may also argue that the habitats objectives in addition to existing objectives, rather than in place regulations are overly bureaucratic and that Natural of existing objectives. England, given the swingeing cuts to its budget to which I referred in an earlier debate, will not have the capacity to deal with both the habitats regulations and Lord Krebs (CB): My Lords, I will speak to the new requirements introduced by the Bill. However— Amendments 255 and 256 in my name, together with and this is the central point—there is a key distinction those of the noble Lord, Lord Randall of Uxbridge, between the requirements of the Bill and those of the and the noble Baronesses, Lady Parminter and Lady habitats regulations. Jones of Whitchurch; Amendment 257AA in my name The targets in the Bill are all about improving our and that of the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of natural environment as a whole. In contrast, the habitats Manor Castle; and the proposition that Clause 106 do regulations and related regulations are all about protecting not stand part the Bill, in my name and those of the individualsites,populationsandsometimesevenindividual noble Lord, Lord Randall of Uxbridge, and the noble specimens; in other words, the two forms of protection Baronesses, Lady Parminter and Lady Jones of are complementary and are not alternatives. Whitchurch. Amendments 255 and 256 would speak to this Clauses 105 and 106 were added to the Bill by the complementarity by ensuring that the current protections Government two months ago without any consultation. for particular sites and species remain in place by These two clauses have important potential adverse replacing “instead of” with “in addition to”. The effects that these amendments seek to rectify. First, amendments restrict the power of the Secretary of they threaten to weaken the protection of our most State to sweep away existing protections while still valuable conservation habitats and species. Secondly, allowing the law to continue to evolve and cater for they confer considerable discretionary powers on the domestic conservation priorities. Secretary of State to change the rules governing Amendment 257AA would add an additional layer environmental protection. of protection by requiring the Secretary of State to In order to fix ideas, I will first explain what these make changes only if they were compatible with five special sites and species are. They include more than international conventions. It would also replace the 200 special areas of conservation protected under the vague commitment to consult persons who are considered habitats regulations, such as the north Northumberland appropriate by the Secretary of State with a specific coast, the North Yorkshire Moors and Ashdown Forest. commitment to consult experts, including the statutory They include wetland sites, such as the Humber Estuary, bodies: Natural England, the Joint Nature Conservation portions of the Essex Marshes, the Isles of Scilly and Committee and the office for environmental protection. the Exe Estuary, that have been designated under the It would also ensure that there is parliamentary scrutiny Ramsar Convention. Last but not least, they include of any changes. the more than 80 English special protection areas If the Secretary of State really means to follow classified under the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 Clause 105(7), these proposed amendments should and subsequent legislation, primarily for the protection simply underpin the intended outcome. If, however, of bird species. Between them, these three categories the Government object to the amendments, one has a protect our greatest natural assets. They protect many right to ask why. As a start, I ask the Minister a simple rare species, such as the lady’s slipper orchid, the question: can he confirm that the statutory bodies I marsh fritillary, the bottlenose dolphin and the lesser have mentioned would be consulted by the Secretary horseshoe bat. of State before any regulations were changed? Currently, the regulations require public authorities, Finally, Clause 106 gives the Secretary of State including the Secretary of State, to comply with the power to amend Part 6 of the habitats regulations in birds and habitats directives, which were the legal almost any way. This part of the regulations deals with source of the habitats regulations. But Clause 105 development projects. It includes rules to prevent harm gives the Secretary of State powers to swap this duty to protected sites except for reasons of overriding to comply with the birds and habitats directives with a public interest. requirement to comply with the new objectives set out The habitats regulations do not stop development, in the Environment Bill; in other words, it changes the but they do ensure that projects are properly assessed obligation to protect our most precious conservation and that effective mitigation and compensation are in sites and our most endangered species. place. Projects such as the Thames Basin Heaths The Minister will no doubt say there is nothing to Partnership have shown how the habitats regulations worry about and that the Government have no intention ensure that development takes place in a way that is of weakening the protection of these sites and species. compatible with nature, helping to protect the remains 1607 Environment Bill [12 JULY 2021] Environment Bill 1608 of the UK’s vanishing heathlands while still allowing but still lacks many of the mechanisms they hope to be the building of many new homes. Successive reviews able to use to achieve this, so it remains quite difficult have found the regulations to be proportionate and to predict the outcomes. effective, giving certainty to developers and environmental The purpose of my Amendment 257C is to remedy groups alike. the fact that in neither the 25-year plan nor this piece Time and again in the debates on the Bill we have of legislation is there a direction to the Government to referred to the conflict between conserving nature and consider social and economic impacts and give them allowing development. Time and again, we have heard due regard. that the Bill, in many ways, appears to tip the balance in favour of development and against nature. Some 5.30 pm might even be driven to argue that the Bill is designed The Government envisage a rural area where a to protect nature provided that this does not interfere sizeable amount of their planned carbon sequestration with other priorities, housebuilding in particular. and renewable energy will be sourced. I thank the The Minister may argue, as with Clause 105, that NFU in London for drafting these amendments, but safeguards are built in. Under Clause 106, the Secretary the extent of the whole rural economy is not exclusively of State must be satisfied that protections provided by involved with farming. Our concern is that agriculture’s the habitats regulations are not reduced and must progress on a number of fronts, including meeting net explain the reasoning to Parliament. But this is an zero by 2040, or legislative requirements such as those entirely subjective test, left to the opinion of the under the NVS rules, could be thwarted. As part of Minister, rather than an effective legal safeguard. these commitments, investment in more modern buildings Clause 106 requires the Secretary of State only to have and infrastructure to reduce our environmental footprint regard to the importance of conservation and biodiversity. will have a huge role to play. It does not require the Secretary of State to consult I have been informed that in practical terms, however, with relevant experts, only with such persons as are planning permission for slurry stores, slurry store considered appropriate. covers and buildings are being put on hold or stopped, At this stage, we have had no indication at all about adding cost and significant business uncertainty, unless how the powers would actually be used or what problems these developments or activities are shown not to with the habitats regulations the Government may be cause adverse effects on protected sites. In addition, seeking to address. Could the Minister give us some the mitigation expected to be put in place to allow examples of these problems? these developments to go ahead is also undermining In my view, Clause 106 could be used to allow the the investment viability of some projects. Too frequently, Government to sacrifice our natural environment on the countryside appears to be a zone to be protected the altar of development, sidestepping protections from growth and opportunity.But, by working together provided by the habitats regulations. If the Minister to make the most of the opportunities we have, by says, “Don’t worry, we will look after nature”, the best creating jobs, boosting green economic growth, increasing way to convince us of this would be to delete this exports, and improving the well-being of the population, clause from the Bill. I beg to move. we can build a better Britain and level up the entire country, so that no one is disadvantaged by where they live or where their business is based. Farming and rural The Duke of Montrose (Con) [V]: My Lords, I will Britain can provide solutions to many of the challenges. speak to my Amendments 257A, 257B and 257C. I Simply passing legislation is not going to achieve the thank the noble Earl, Lord Devon, for adding his environmental benefits that the Government seek. name to them. It is a pleasure to follow the noble Further, it is held that, as a result of the Dutch N Lord, Lord Krebs, so that we can debate whether the case, Natural England believes that it cannot advise Government can be trusted to guard environmental giving permission for a building or infrastructure that policy and how much. In seeking to move that Clause 106 will contribute to emissions reductions in areas where not stand part, in spite of its emphasis on conservation background levels are already above or very close to and biodiversity, it appears the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, the critical levels for a protected site, even when this is would not like the Secretary of State to have any room to replace existing infrastructure with a more modern to manoeuvre on the proposals presently part of Part 6. building. This is a particular problem for the question I declare my interests as in the register but also particularly of betterment that is in the second amendment. Despite as a livestock farmer in a national park and a member the fact that emissions for the new build may be of NFU Scotland. reduced, it is often difficult for businesses to gain the The Government have already passed one amendment required permissions. Enabling every individual or to the wording of the habitats regulations that we were business to make investments that are achievable within operating while we were in the EU, but it was all done their control has the potential to deliver significant so rapidly that it is not altogether surprising that they environmental benefits, while ensuring that the business have a clause in the Bill that would allow them to remains viable. modify things once the rural environment has settled They will still have to adapt to fulfil many new down. This group of amendments is all about how far purposes. I have heard one analysis of the farming they should be able to do so as the proposal unfolds. sector that listed some of these as seeking other income, Noble Lords will be well versed in the Government’s the management of carbon, of renewable energy and 25-year environment plan, which is intended to promote of the environment, becoming more efficient, creative a fairer society and social justice, among other things. co-operation, bringing livestock back on to farms with It was published in May 2019 and outlines their proposals depleted soils, eliminating the escape of nutrients both 1609 Environment Bill [LORDS] Environment Bill 1610

[THE DUKE OF MONTROSE] that the Secretary of State, in light of our international to the air and from the runoffs from yards, and at the commitments, would exercise this power in a manner same time managing the whole carbon footprint of that is compatible with our international agreements, the exercise. They will be faced with how to implement including the updated Convention on Biological Diversity. sustainable development, as their current infrastructure But we have seen again and again that we currently simply would not allow many of these enterprises, and have a Government who do not necessarily see themselves new layers will be needed. Can the Minister confirm bound by international obligations. Of course, any that a farmer’s existing permitted development rights Government can bind only themselves; they cannot will not be affected any more than at present by the speak to what Governments might do in the future. measures in this Bill? That is why we need all of these kinds of protections The 25-year environment plan may be the channel on the face of the Bill. where many of these details must be managed, but Wealso have to look at all of these amendments—but the position would be immensely strengthened if perhaps Amendment 257AA in particular—in the light Amendment 257A was on the face of the Bill. The noble of the promises that we heard over the past few years Lord, Lord Krebs, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett that we would have non-regression after Brexit, meaning of Manor Castle,have their names on Amendment 257AA that we will not go backwards. We heard from the in this group. At first sight, it appears to flag up a Government again and again that we are seeking only reminder to the Government of what the present rules more and stronger protections. All these amendments— are. They are largely composed of a number of but particularly Amendment 257AA—would set on international treaties in this field that we have been the face of the Bill a promise to stick to what we are signed up to for many years. A great many of these are indeed committed to now. specifically sighted on defined sites, and that might Of course, we probably expect to hear from the offset the criticism of the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, Minister that this is unnecessary, but I think we all about not having policies which define sites. Those know very well that it is necessary. If it is just some mentioned by name are all international agreements, extra protection or insulation, it is hard to see why the and our reputation would suffer badly if we were to Government should have objections to that basic break them. Would the Minister go along with our protection, to ensure that we live up to all those abrogating some of these treaties? I have no doubt that international agreements that we have signed, which the Minister will tell the Committee whether he considers we expect to be updating through international that repeating our commitments here is necessary. negotiations in future. Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP) [V]: My Lords, I speak in favour of all the amendments in this The Earl of Devon (CB): My Lords, I sought to add group—except for 257A, which appears to me to be a my name to the amendments of the noble Duke, the weakening of a Bill that is already far too weak, away Duke of Montrose, but I did so a little late so it does from its purpose of protecting the environment. The not appear in the current Marshalled List. However, I noble Lord, Lord Krebs, has already powerfully and echo wholeheartedly the sentiments he so expertly comprehensively introduced Amendments 255, 256 expressed and the vital importance when setting these and the proposition that Clause 106 should not stand habitat regulations—and indeed all the various worthy part of the Bill. All of these have full cross-party and strategies we have been debating in the Bill—of supporting non-party support. Indeed, I would have attached my sustainable rural development. name had there been space. I mentioned previously in Committee the danger of I will focus in particular on Amendment 257AA, to the Bill unwittingly inflicting environmental tyranny which I have attached my name, because, when I saw upon our landscape. If we are not very careful, we that the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, had tabled this, I will forget that the rural environment that we all thought that this was a very neat, comprehensive and know and love and seek to preserve is a place of work protective amendment. We have to be conducting this for many and was created and sustained by that very particular section of the debate in the light of the same rural enterprise that we are in danger of sweeping release in the past couple of hours of the latest draft away. The only way that our rural landscape will negotiations of the Convention on Biological Diversity, survive and meet the environmental challenges of this together with news that the conference is now set to be era is if it remains a viable and sustainable delayed again, until next year. That provides for, in the workplace, supporting farming and a host of diverse current draft—alongside the 2030 protection of land rural enterprises. and seas and providing a third of climate mitigations I know that there is a great enthusiasm among your through nature by 2030—new goals for the middle Lordships for rewilding and large-scale—landscape- of the century, including reducing the current rates of scale—interventions in the countryside. However, the extinction tenfold, enhancing the integrity of all Knepp estate is simply not easily replicable, in the ecosystems, valuing nature’s contribution to humanity, same way that not every abandoned mine can become and providing the financial resources to achieve the an Eden Project. If we do not conserve small local vision. This is not, as the noble Duke, the Duke of rural enterprise and local business and employment, Montrose, was just suggesting, something which applies our countryside will become a suburban plaything of only to specific sites. This very much applies across the super-rich environmentalists, supported by a second- whole of the country. home-owning elite able to remote access their white-collar I note that the very useful Greener UK and Wildlife jobs from the comfort of their converted barn while and Countryside Link briefing on all of these amendments enjoying the view. Local land management will be noted that, as the noble Duke said, one would assume supported by well-meaning charitable handouts, but 1611 Environment Bill [12 JULY 2021] Environment Bill 1612 we will create a rural life in which there are no local application and restart the pre-application process jobs and no affordable homes necessary for a vibrant after the site was protected. Natural England, which and diverse local community. named the area an SSSI, said that 40% of the nationally I will also address Amendments 255, 256 and 257AA important wildlife would be directly lost to this theme in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Krebs. I had not park, with additional impacts likely from construction intended to, but given that he gave a shout-out to the and the operation. It also questioned the plans to Exe estuary Ramsar site and that that sits within the compensate for the lack of habitat, the home to breeding Powderham estate, I thought that I ought to offer a birds, endangered plants and apparently more than comment, particularly with respect to Amendment 257AA 1,700 species of insects, by creating some sort of and the need for consultation. I would hate for the protected wildlife somewhere else. protections on the River Exe estuary to be in any way The company is London Resort Company Holdings, weakened. It is a remarkable landscape and it has been or LRCH, and the boss of this project, Pierre-Yves created and established that way over many centuries. Gerbeau, said that it was fundamental to be a leader It is currently managed by the Exe Estuary Management in sustainability, and as a result he has provided eight Partnership, which is a remarkable amalgam of vested miles of footpaths—I am not sure whether they are interests, from the RSPB to local parish councils, and concrete or not. It seems the ultimate irony that we are from Exeter City Council to boat clubs, rowing clubs, planning to create an ancient civilisation, which has sailing clubs and shellfishers. It works incredibly well. been lost due to the activities of man, in a place which Can the Minister in his reply say whether the consultation is deemed to be an SSSI and which is just down the requirements that are proposed would include consultation road from where we sit now. All the points that noble with local enterprises such as the Exe Estuary Lords are making about why we need protections Management Partnership, which is so important to written into the face of the Bill, and indeed the point the proper management of these very sensitive ecosystems? made by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, about the delay again to the meeting in Kunming, mean that the Baroness Boycott (CB): My Lords, I support Bill has to be firmed up. I am sorry, but there are Amendment 257AA in the name of the noble Lord, inconsistencies that happen with planning such as for Lord Krebs, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of this project; as your Lordships will know, I have gone Manor Castle. As the noble Baroness said, this is a on about the houses on the edge of the Knepp estate. very neat amendment which wraps up an awful lot of You need people to come with you, and we need to be things that the Government need to pay attention to. able to trust the Government. I urge the Minister to Further on the thought expressed by the noble look at this project and I very much look forward to Duke, the Duke of Montrose, that we could trust the his answers. Government, I draw the attention of the House and Minister to a project which seems to fly in the face of Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con): My Lords, it is a all the aims of noble Lords in this House and indeed pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, of all these amendments. That is the £3.5 billion theme and I thank her for getting down to brass tacks with park called the London Resort, which is on the an example. However, I am concerned about this Swanscombe peninsula on the Thames estuary. The group of amendments, which seeks yet further to concept for this site, which is spread across 535 acres strengthen adherence to the legacy of the EU habitats in Kent, is of a union jack-designed dome, a Disneyesque directive and to regulations made under it. When I castle lit up by fireworks, and a Paramount Pictures was lucky enough to be a Minister much involved in entryway. It will be the first European development of negotiating on EU legislation, I used to attend Cabinet its kind. It is inspired by Hollywood blockbusters and committees where, without revealing any secrets, the will have swords, sorcery, dragons and legends. There iniquities and inflexibilities of the habitats directive will even be a jungle where the ancient ruins of a was a regular theme. The red tape and requirements, long-extinct Mesoamerican civilisation will sprout out for example, to comply with protections in every relevant of the ground—which seems ironic. This is in partnership catchment even where a species or flora or fauna were with EDF Energy—always a good one for a bit of abundant elsewhere, helped to fuel Brexit sentiment greenwash—plus the BBC, ITV, Hollywood and all and the feeling that we should be able to do things our the rest of it. That is all online. It is aiming to be an own way. attraction claiming to have net-zero emissions—which I personally do not believe. However, it will be built on This Bill is an example in spades of not taking back a recently named SSSI. real control and indeed doing far more than the EU has done on the environment. That troubles me, because 5.45 pm we do not know how it will work out in practice, and Despite letters from all the leading conservation of course the regulation powers in Clause 105—and charities and despite agreements from the developers indeed elsewhere in the Bill—are very wide. However, I to change some things, the ultimate goal has remained agree with the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, on the need the same and was indeed signed off by Robert Jenrick for proper consultation, and like him, I would appreciate in February this year. They will be digging up an area some examples to enlighten us all before Report. I of great importance to biodiversity, wetlands, and, of note that there is no impact assessment on these course, given that this is in the estuary, migratory clauses; why is that? birds. This joint letter from wildlife charities, which I I am highly doubtful about Clauses 105 and 106, have in my hands, includes the Kent Wildlife Trust, the since they leave us so close to the EU on habitats and, RSPB, Buglife and the CPRE in Kent. They said that I fear, open to judicial review if we do things in a the company ought to have sought to withdraw its different way. Simpler, innovative ways of protecting 1613 Environment Bill [LORDS] Environment Bill 1614

[BARONESS NEVILLE-ROLFE] came from somebody who worshipped regularly at the our environmental jewels and changing things that the church of Abbey Dore, one of the glories of the EU has decreed but do not work, has to be open to us. golden valley of Herefordshire—one of the loveliest We want to get out of the straitjacket of Roman law parts of our country. This particular correspondent and have a common-law, common-sense approach to was kneeling to receive holy communion on a Sunday protecting our exceptional habitats and indeed keeping morning when a bat defecated into his and the vicar’s countryside businesses vibrant, as the noble Earl, hands. The vicar, who was a lady, was understandably Lord Devon, has said. distressed and so was he. I fear that these clauses limit our freedom too We have to wonder what we can do about this much. Moreover, nearly all the amendments in this because, apart from anything else, there is a health group would make things worse and will therefore, I hazard. Weknow—it is proven—that bats carry diseases. hope, be resisted by my noble friend the Minister. It is even suggested, with fairly good evidence to Whether you are a Brexiteer like him or not, we must support it, that the pandemic under which we are still all acknowledge that we have left the EU and must suffering at the moment originated in bats in the wet move forward independently. markets of China. So this is not scaremongering; this is making a serious point in, I hope, a serious way. Lord Cormack (Con): My Lords, we are all very Many of our monuments are brasses, but many are much in the debt of the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, for marble, which is particularly badly affected by bat introducing this series of amendments and he is, of defecations and bat urinations. It is not a pleasant course, right to be concerned about habitats, the survival subject, but it has to be addressed. I am very worried, of species and all those things on which he touched. because so many of our churches have been closed for I want, however, to focus the House’s attention on so long during the pandemic—just what extra damage one specific matter. We debated some amendments the has been done during this period? week before last, I think, on heritage and, underlying Again, I do not speak as a scaremonger; I am a the debates that we have had day after day, has been a long-standing member of the Church Monuments recognition that our landscape is manmade or man- Society, vice-president of the Ecclesiological Society moulded in its entirety. The villages, towns and cities and have been warden of three churches for a total of in which we live are, of course, entirely manmade. I 36 years. Like my noble friend Earl Shrewsbury when supported the heritage amendments, introduced very it came to shooting, I know a little bit about the ably by the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, because of subject of which I am talking. It is something that, in my concern about buildings in general that have historic an Environment Bill, should be brought to your Lordships’ interest, and churches in particular. Nowhere else in attention. I ask my noble friend the Minister one our country is the story of our country more graphically particular favour: perhaps the greatest expert on this told than in our country and town churches and, in subject is Professor Jean Wilson, former president of particular, in the monuments and other artefacts that the Church Monuments Society, and I would be very they contain. grateful if my noble friend would allow me to bring We must get the balance right—balance has occurred her to meet him so that she can give him graphic time and again in these debates—because there is a examples and discuss this. real danger from one particular and specific source to the monuments in our churches. I refer to the danger There are ways and means of diverting bats from of bats. Somebody may chuckle, and “bats in belfries” churches, such as building special bat roosts or emitting always raises a laugh, but this is a serious subject. I certain sounds that will drive them out. There are a have brought it to the House’s attention before; I even whole range of things that can be done. Some are introduced a Private Member’s Bill three or four years being done at the moment, but this is an urgent ago. But if noble Lords came with me to the wonderful problem. An Environment Bill passing into law which church of Tattershall in Lincolnshire—one of the did not recognise heritage or recognise some of the finest perpendicular churches in the country—they glories of built heritage would be an inferior Bill. I do would be amazed, or would have been a few years ago, not question for a moment my noble friend’s interest by the glory and beauty of the brasses. They have had in these things and his concerns about them, but none to be covered, and in some cases hidden, because of of us can be experts on everything, and a meeting with the corrosive effect of bat droppings and urine. This is Professor Wilson might be extremely helpful to him. a story that can be told in many parts of the country, Government must have the opportunity to balance indeed in some thousands of our 16,000 listed grade 1 things. or grade 2-style churches. Nobody who cares about I have great sympathy with many of the points our country and the beauty of those buildings should made by the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, who spoke, as he dismiss this. We have to get the balance right. always does, with calm and quiet authority. However, I am not being so stupid or frivolous as to suggest from a very brief conversation that I had with him, that we try to exterminate bats as we exterminate rats. when I told him that I would introduce this subject I am not doing that at all, but I am saying that there this afternoon, I got the impression that it was something must be a real attempt to address this problem—and that he had not necessarily given a great deal of there is a partnership at the moment, experimental thought to. I do not criticise him for that at all. He is and very slow, between Natural England and English one of the greatest experts that we have in your Heritage. When I raised it last time in your Lordships’ Lordships’ House, and we are exceptionally fortunate House, I had dozens of letters from all over the to have him—but this is something that I am glad to country. One in particular sticks in my mind, which draw to his attention, and I hope that he will appreciate 1615 Environment Bill [12 JULY 2021] Environment Bill 1616 the fact that I am doing so. We ought to have a support and applaud the idea, set out in his amendments, post-Covid survey of our churches, we ought to see of achieving sustainable development and a balance how much this damage has increased, and we ought to between different uses. In particular, I support the make it a real object of Natural England and English words of the noble Earl, Lord Devon, in support of Heritage to try to come together to address this, farming and the rural economy, and I hope that this because much is at stake. group of amendments will place on record our desire that a balance be achieved. 6 pm In addition to my question about bats in the belfry Lord Randall of Uxbridge (Con) [V]: My Lords, it is in the context of St Hilda’s Church at Ellerburn, I always a pleasure to follow my noble friend press my noble friend the Minister to confirm the Lord Cormack. I can immediately make him an offer: reason for the urgency for Clause 106. I understand once full service is resumed, as I hope it will be soon, I from the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, that it was added at will entertain him and Professor Wilson, and I could quite short notice and without any consultation, which bring along someone from the Bat Conservation Trust is always slightly worrying. Can the Minister confirm—my to show that there is a middle way here. I do not know noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe hit the nail on the whether he was in his place during that last debate, head—that this is, to a certain extent, a consequence when I explained my interest as a trustee of the Bat of the EU directive on habitats being retained in UK Conservation Trust. I recognise his genuine concerns, law? Paragraph 955 on page 118 of the Explanatory but at some stage we could probably have a good Notes, which my noble friend the Minister is always discussion over a cup of coffee and a sticky bun. keen that we read—I am one step ahead of him in this I added my name to Amendment 256 in the name regard—says: of the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, who said everything I “The national site network of European sites provides protection need to say, really—I support his sentiments entirely. I for habitats designated for a particular purpose and supports also express my concerns about Clause 106 standing delivery of international and domestic biodiversity objectives.” part. I do not see it, as my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe I imagine that one of the main thrusts of Clause 106 is does, being in any way a Brexit-related matter, just one to ensure that that list is kept under review—by granting of making sure that we in this country can have the the Government the power to keep it under review—now best conservation and protection for our natural that we have left the European Union. I urge my noble environment and species. Whether that was afforded friend the Minister to continue to obtain a balance in the EU, I do not know. I have not always been the between the uses and the different interests that will be greatest fan of some of its regulations, not so much exercised in this regard. because of the regulations themselves but because of How will the habitats regulations be applied when it the way in which they were implemented. The Bill is a comes to the planning Bill, which is coming before the fantastic chance for us to get ahead of our European House in short order? neighbours on this. I also completely endorse the views and sentiments Baroness Parminter (LD): My Lords, we on these of the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, on the Swanscombe Benches support the amendments in the name of the proposals. I brought up this matter in your Lordships’ noble Lord, Lord Krebs, to which I added my name. House a while ago and we need to take it very seriously, He is right to raise the concerns that a number of us because it is a prime example of something that maybe have about the intentions of the Government in removing does not immediately look like the most appealing of the protections on our most valuable ecological sites natural environments but actually has the most marvellous and habitats. He mentioned some species that are very biodiversity. Once it is gone, it is gone—and what for? important to him; for me it is about the bitterns and A theme park. Is that really how we want to look after nightingales. The Government are proposing, as the our nature? noble Lord rightly said, to change the present situation, where there has to be overriding public interest to Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con): My Lords, I remove protections for particular sites, to one in which, am delighted to follow my noble friend, and I pay basically, local authorities have to satisfy the needs of tribute to his work as a trustee of the Bat Conservation the Bill and meet overall targets for improving nature. Trust. I press my noble friend the Minister to respond They are asking them to do all that on trust, and as to the concerns I raised in the debate on the the noble Lord, Lord Krebs,rightly said, the Government’s Amendment 234 group and ask for his confirmation amendment says that the Secretary of State will decide that a greater balance will be achieved between the whether there has been a reduction of those protections. interests of bats and humans in the context of the There is no guarantee of consultation with independent closure of St Hilda’s Church at Ellerburn. It is extremely experts. I hope the Minister will answer the direct important that the parishioners of that and other question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, on that churches know that their interests will not be subordinated point: will the Government guarantee to consult the to those of bats. independent experts? Without that, we must query I associate myself with the amendments in the their intentions. name of my noble friend the Duke of Montrose and There is a slightly broader point about consultation, the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, one which the noble Earl, Lord Devon, raised. The and his co-signees, which proposes that Clause 106 do current system works very well when there is proper not stand part. I associate myself with all the comments consultation among all interested stakeholders in a made by my noble friend the Duke of Montrose on his given area, including the businesses, environmentalists amendment. I need say nothing more than that I and local action groups. It might work well in the Exe 1617 Environment Bill [LORDS] Environment Bill 1618

[BARONESS PARMINTER] Government amendments to the Bill were,disappointingly, estuary; it certainly works well with us in the Thames as the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, said in his introduction, basin, with the heath development framework. My brought in without consultation. They introduced new local authority is working on that with 11 other local Clauses 105 and 106, providing powers for the Secretary authorities, and we have managed to operate within of State to amend the habitats regulations. We agree the existing framework of the habitats directive.Meanwhile with the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, that taking in Surrey—a heavily developed area—we are building things on trust is simply not good enough in legislation. the homes that are needed while protecting our most This Government may say, “Yes, you can trust us”, but special ecological sites. The current consultation system who knows what the future holds? is working, so there is no way we should give that up We have heard that Clause 105 allows Ministers, as, for a system in which there is no guarantee of consultation as the noble, Lord Krebs, said, to swap the duty on in future. public authorities to satisfy the requirements of the Secondly, on the point that the Government are nature directives with a duty to satisfy the requirements asking us to take all this on trust, the noble Baroness, of the Bill’s targets and environmental improvement Lady Neville-Rolfe,said that there is no impact assessment. plans. However, the new objectives are simply not a Surprise,surprise: that is because there was no consultation substitute for those of the nature directives. They serve and it was introduced at Report in the Commons. an entirely different purpose. as noble Lords have said. There is no impact assessment, but there have been The Bill’s targets aim to ensure overall national multiple reviews of the legislation on the habitats improvement across the natural environment. directive and all of them said it should be improved, Tosatisfy the expected Environment Bill requirements, not revoked. That consultation has involved businesses habitats and species in general need to be increasing. as well as environmental NGOs and other stakeholders. By contrast, the nature directive is all about protecting It is a shame that the Government have not introduced particular habitats and species and specific sites and the improvements asked for by those interested parties populations. They form the first line of defence for some over the years, rather than going for the nuclear option of our most precious habitats and species, and any of suddenly throwing the baby out with the bathwater. powers to amend them must be designed and considered Thirdly, I come to what worries me most about the very carefully to avoid unintended consequences. Any Government asking us to take this on trust. We have protections must be maintained and built on, not had debates about why they will not include in the Bill undermined. the state of nature targets for species abundance, and they said it was because at the moment, they cannot 6.15 pm work out the metrics: they do not have the metrics in The Government have said they need this power place and must work out what those targets are. If because they want the legislation to adequately support they must work them out, why do they think it is okay their ambitions for nature and free up technical expertise to get rid of the existing system, when we do not have in Natural England from the distraction of what they those robust metrics in place? Weshould not be removing regard as highly prescriptive legal processes. But these something that is delivering protection for our most processes include crucial safeguards in decisions valuable ecological sites and allowing developments in concerning the protection of species and habitats. hotspots such as Surrey, if we do not have the metrics They are not the bureaucratic burden being painted by to prove that we can move from a system that is some, and they must not be stripped away in the name working to another which may be what the Government of simplification. want, but for which we do not have the metrics. If the powers in the Bill are not appropriately The Government are asking us to take too much on prescribed, they could be used to deconstruct the trust at this stage. It makes me think that this is really regime of strict protection for the UK’s finest wildlife more cover for future changes in the proposed planning sites and could weaken the strong and vital safeguards Bill, through which they will sweep away protections for European protected species. The Government must for particular sites to allow more development in these therefore ensure that the powers provide for additional new zoned areas. I accept that we have left Europe and protections, in line with the overarching ambition of we need to move ahead. The noble Baroness, the Bill to improve the environment, without diluting Lady Neville-Rolfe, said that we need to move ahead the important technical protections for individual sites independently. I do not care whether it is independently and species provided by the habitats regulations. Exactly or not; I want us to move ahead so that we better how does the Minister envisage that happening? We protect our environment and, at the same time, build know that this will be achieved only if the clauses are the affordable houses we need. The existing system is amended as proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Krebs. working and the Government need to provide some The noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, very good answers if they are to persuade the House talked about the Government’s promises on non- that it should be swept away and replaced by something regression. Again, I ask the Minister: how is non-regression unproven and not clearly argued. met by the clause? We know that the habitats regulations ensure that Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab): My Lords, we development projects that cause significant damage to support Amendments 255, 256 and 257AA in the wildlife sites go ahead only for reasons of overriding names of the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, and others, public interest. As drafted, the new power could be which allow the Conservation of Habitats and Species used to change any aspect of the habitats regulations Regulations 2017 to be amended to further new objectives assessment rules which currently protect our rarest in addition to, rather than in place of, existing ones. designated conservation sites from being harmed by 1619 Environment Bill [12 JULY 2021] Environment Bill 1620 new activities, both onshore and in marine environments. that whatever changes are brought in do not reduce As we heard earlier,there has not been enough discussion existing protections for our most vulnerable sites and of the protections needed for our precious marine species. environments. Unfortunately, all of this could easily Earlier in Committee, I brought forward a new undermine the most important protections. The noble clause to require the Government to set a further Baroness, Lady Parminter, laid out her concerns clearly legally binding target aiming to halt the decline of in this regard. nature. Ensuring that our protected sites can be restored The Government have said that the power is needed to good condition to provide a safe haven for our most to accommodate future changes to consenting regimes, vulnerable habitats and species is a key part of this. which are likely to include the change to a zonal That is why we are introducing a power to amend planning system, as proposed in the planning White Part 6 of the habitats regulations. The twin climate Paper. This is really concerning, as it could allow large and biodiversity crises present long-term challenges areas to be zoned for development, including protected that threaten our future if left unchecked, so we need sites, without the site-specific searches and safeguards to ensure that we have the means to act, if we need to, currently in place. to adapt some of our principal nature conservation During debates on the Bill, we have heard many rules to address these pressures. concerns about inappropriate development. The noble The Government want to see a more nature-rich Baroness, Lady Boycott, gave us a particularly vivid Britain, with a fit-for-purpose regulatory framework example of how this could all go wrong if we are not that drives the delivery of our ambition and reverses careful. The wide scope of the new power and the the decline of nature. A Green Paper in autumn this weak procedural safeguards in the Bill make Clause 106 year will seek views on any proposed changes within a significant threat to maintaining critical environmental the context of the Government’s approach to nature protections. The power would give future Ministers recovery. The paper will be informed by the habitats the ability to sidestep the vital safeguards for sites regulations assessment working group,led by my colleague, currently provided by the habitats regulations and on my noble friend Lord Benyon. Stakeholders will have which the Government rely to meet their international the opportunity to influence how we can improve our obligations. The noble Lord, Lord Krebs, eloquently wildlife laws to deliver on these ambitions. Noble explained why Clause 106 is so very problematic. We Lords will know that the clause includes a number of agree, and we agree with him that it should be deleted safeguards that are designed to retain our existing from the Bill. protections. I will set them out here, as it is important I will now speak briefly to the amendments in the to demonstrate that the Government do not treat this name of the noble Duke, the Duke of Montrose. I casually. thank him for his introduction, during which he explained The power to amend Regulation 9 cannot be used some of the challenges faced by farmers and the rural before 1 February 2023, after the Government have set economy in delivering the expected environmental our biodiversity targets and reviewed the environmental benefits.The noble Earl, Lord Devon, spoke passionately, improvement plan. In addition, Ministers will have to as he always does, about the importance of sustainability be satisfied and explain to Parliament that any change in our rural environments, but in a way that supports would not reduce our existing environmental protections, farming and local businesses. Those of us who live in and Parliament will have a vote on any use of the in rural farming communities understand the importance powers. In addition, Ministers must consult before the of balance, and our rural communities must be supported powers are used. We have committed to consulting as they go through so much change, as they are at the with the OEP, in particular, before these powers are moment. used. Moreover,we will of course ensure that consultation It has been a very interesting debate. The Minister on any proposals is comprehensive and appropriate to really needs to listen to people’s concerns, particularly deliver our environmental ambitions. regarding Clause 106, and I look forward to his response. In response to Amendment 257AA in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, I stress that the test that Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con): I thank the Secretary of State must “be satisfied”that protections all Peers for their contributions to this debate, and I are not reduced is a high bar. It requires certainty on share the strong feeling in this House that we need to his part that there have been no reductions in protections protect our precious species and habitats, and ensure from the existing habitats regulations. The Secretary that our laws and regulations enable us to do that. of State will also have to demonstrate this by making a This Bill creates a new ambitious domestic framework statement to this House and subjecting that statement for nature. We have brought forward a suite of legally to scrutiny. If the judgment of the Secretary of State is binding targets, including two for biodiversity, put proven, or even thought, to be wrong, it can subsequently environmental improvement plans on a statutory footing be challenged in court. and created a range of powerful new policy levers, Looking slightly more widely, I will also address the including biodiversity net gain. The Government’s noble Lord’s Amendments 255 and 256. I hope I have intention is to capitalise on this new framework and, demonstrated that we want to enhance the regulatory to enable us to do so, we must be able to update our framework to improve outcomes for nature in this conservation laws. So it is right that those laws should country. I understand the concern that this power be updated to meet our new heightened ambition for might substitute the protections offered by the directives nature restoration in this country, even while we must with more general requirements. However, it is designed be clear—as the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, emphasised— to allow requirements to specify particular protections 1621 Environment Bill [LORDS] Environment Bill 1622

[LORD GOLDSMITH OF RICHMOND PARK] say they are without value; they have been an for habitats and species. For example, we could require extraordinarily important framework that, I suspect, specific species to be strictly protected to ensure delivery has prevented even more damage being done to our of our new species abundance target. It will also nature and biodiversity, but it would be wrong if the provide greater clarity for public authorities on the extent of our ambition were to end with the status precise requirements they are required to meet. These quo, which is not delivered. I reiterate to noble Lords amendments would not allow us to reconsider existing my assurance that the Government will not do anything requirements in the directives. This would deprive us to undermine existing protections and will take a of the scope potentially to clarify or improve the measured, inclusive and consultative approach to reform. requirements and would therefore remove the opportunity In light of this, I beg that Clause 106 stands part of to tailor and improve the existing legislative framework the Bill. to support our domestic ambitions and international I recognise the importance of the proposal of my noble obligations. friend the Duke of Montrose, in his Amendments 257A To address some of the points raised by my noble and 257B, to encourage sustainable development and friend Lady McIntosh, the UK, probably more than betterment. Our farmers play an enormously important any other country, is playing a central role in reversing role as custodians of our natural environment—a biodiversity loss—for example, in negotiating the Leaders’ point made well by the noble Earl, Lord Devon. They Pledge for Nature, which commits world leaders to play an enormously important role and their contribution urgent action by 2030, and goes far beyond that. I will be critical to delivering nature recovery. Nature encourage anyone who has not read it to do so; it is a recovery and our ambitions will not be possible without very ambitious document, to which 86 countries have them. It is not a choice of farmers versus nature, signed up so far. farmers versus biodiversity or farming versus beauty. As is already happening all over the country, we have At home, we are committed to protecting 30% of to find a way to reconcile these ambitions. We are our land for nature and have come forward with a already working on guidance to support our ambition duty to set a legally binding target on species abundance, of modernising on-farm infrastructure, a vital part of which we have already discussed in Committee. We are the agricultural transition to improve productivity and also publishing a Green Paper later this year, which efficiency, and to protect the environment. will provide the first opportunity in a generation to draw together the evidence for change to update and Clause 105 offers the opportunity to ensure legacy modernise our current patchwork of wildlife legislation, EU legislation can protect and enhance our natural which has been developed in a somewhat piecemeal environment as effectively as possible. The Green Paper, manner over many decades. We can then build a which will be published later this year, will provide an coherent system of protection to ensure that our most opportunity to explore these issues further. I welcome precious habitats and species thrive across England. discussion with noble Lords and stakeholders as part But time is critical. Where the evidence is clear that of this. amending the regulations could improve the natural I hope I understood the question from my noble environment and make the processes clearer and more friend the Duke of Montrose. He asked me to reconfirm legally certain to help improve the condition of our that the UK will adhere to those international agreements sites, we will have the means of doing so. to which we have signed up. If that is what he asked, I would be happy to do so, as any of my colleagues In response to a question raised by the noble Baroness, would. Lady Parminter,we will provide a full impact assessment of any regulations made under the powers, when bringing 6.30 pm them forward, in line with the approach taken to delegated powers across the Bill. My understanding is The noble Earl, Lord Devon, asked about consultations that we cannot use those powers until the metrics are generally. The Secretary of State must consult people in place and the targets have been set. before making any change to the habitats regulations. The power is general and therefore can include the In response to a number of noble Lords and as I organisations the noble Earl cited, and many more. I mentioned earlier, the Secretary of State has asked my would be very happy to meet my noble friend noble friend Lord Benyon to form a small informal Lord Cormack, with Professor Wilson, at a time that group to oversee consideration of how the habitats suits him. He is right to raise this issue. Reconciling directive amendments proposed in the Bill, in relation the needs of historic buildings with those of important to these regulations, might be progressed. This thinking species, such as the 18 species of bat that we have in will feed into the Green Paper planned for autumn this England, can be difficult and raises all kinds of issues year.If the evidence suggests that amending the regulations such as those in his speech. I applaud the “bats in can help improve the condition of our sites and contribute churches”project, a partnership between Natural England, to our 2030 ambition, we will have the means to do so the Church of England and other heritage and swiftly. conservation partners. It is a really good example of I add one further point to the noble Baroness, these different interests working together to deliver Lady Parminter. Her compelling speech described the solutions. Long may that continue and long may we habitats directive as having worked, but the reality is learn from that. that it has not. We have experienced a dramatic collapse Regarding Amendment 257C, we do not want to in our biodiversity over recent years and decades, limit the scope of the clause to development alone, as despite the rules that are in place. It is wrong to hold enhancing biodiversity can have a multitude of benefits, them up as some kind of gold standard. That is not to including sustainable development. Social and economic 1623 Environment Bill [12 JULY 2021] Environment Bill 1624 considerations may already be considered in Part 6 of consult and bring proposals to Parliament, he will to the Conservation of Habitats and Species Regulations, some extent mark his own homework—so noble Lords where there are imperative reasons for overriding public can see why I am suspicious. Speeches like that of the interest. noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, stir up that suspicion I thank all noble Lords for their impassioned and even further. The government proposals could quite informed contributions to this hugely important debate. easily be set alongside and be complementary to the As I have set out, the Government believe that without habitats regulations’ requirements. The requirement to the ability to update our conservation laws where the meet the Environment Bill targets and the environmental evidence suggests that it is necessary to meet our improvement plan targets could be additional and not ambitions and our new legally binding targets, our instead of the habitats regulations’ requirements. The ambitions for nature may end up being constrained. noble Lord, Lord Krebs, very clearly pointed out that Clause 106, in conjunction with Clause 105, will ensure they are not the same requirements. that our conservation regulations can contribute to In fact, of the targets that we discussed earlier in meeting the tough challenges that we set for ourselves Committee, the one that the Government are prepared as we seek to restore nature in this country. I listened to move on is on species abundance, which is about carefully to the debate and legitimate and understandable species numbers, rather than habitats or sites. So the concerns have been raised, but I hope that I have gone habitats regulations’protection for these most important some way towards reassuring noble Lords about the habitats and sites is still required. Whydo the Government Government’s intentions for these powers, because want to junk one of the decent pieces of EU legislation? that is what this comes down to: our intention to Is it simply because it is a European law? Is the improve the conservation status of protected habitats Minister being forced into sweeping the ground for a and species across the country and to improve our set of planning proposals that have not been seen ability to deliver on those wider ambitions. I ask the across government yet, let alone by your Lordships or noble Lord to withdraw his amendment. the public? In these circumstances, Clause 106 ought to be The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Russell deleted from the Bill—it is a pig in a poke, and we do of Liverpool) (CB): I have received two requests to not know enough about what is going to come in its speak after the Minister, from the noble Baroness, wake. Above all, I would like to hear from the Minister Lady Young of Old Scone, and the noble Duke, the why the Government are stepping into this maelstrom— Duke of Montrose. because it will be one—and how the changes that they plan to make could be made more transparent so that Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab) [V]: My Lords, your Lordships could be enabled to decide whether or I was not intending to speak to this group of amendments, not to be suspicious. I would also like to hear why we especially as I was keen to keep the Minister sweet for cannot have what the Minister is proposing as an my tree amendments in the next group, but I have addition to the existing habitats regulations’requirements, become increasingly worried and suspicious. I support rather than instead of them. the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, and want to ask the Minister about the Government’s Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con): I am intentions. sorry that I have raised the noble Baroness’s suspicions. Why the Government would want to put their head I have described the safeguards that are in place, and I into this particular lions’ den mystifies me. Why were will not repeat them because she will have heard what I the clauses to weaken the habitat regulations introduced said. It is wrong to imply, as I think she did, that we without consultation, late in the day in May? The are scrapping the habitats directive or that it is deemed habitat regulations, with protections for SACs and to have no value by government—that is not the case, SPAs, are one of the jewels in the crown of EU and I hope that I made that clear in my speech. environmental legislation. Even for Brexiteers there However, it is equally wrong to pretend that it is are such things,one of them being the habitats regulations. unimprovable; clearly, it is improvable and clearly we They give protection for the very small number of the need a better or improved set of rules to deliver on the most important priority sites and species, and there ambition that we have set ourselves. The facts make are only about 900 across the whole four nations of that unarguable. the UK. Quite a lot of them are in Scotland and out to However, I will go further and say that describing sea, so it is not as if you would be falling over SPAs what the Government are doing as a “declaration of and SACs on every street corner and being prevented war” against nature is very hard to reconcile with an from doing anything as a result. We know that their Environment Bill that has unprecedented targets. I protections are much valued by the public. They are challenge the noble Baroness to find any other country also a bit of a coup for the UK. The UK led on with ambitions that come even close to those that we negotiating these protections into EU law originally. It are setting out here in relation to peat, water, waste, was the Prime Minister’s dad who played a substantial species, tree planting, et cetera. I challenge her to find role in that, so threatening the habitats regulations is any other country that has as ambitious an approach tantamount to a declaration of war. Why would the in relation to land-use subsidies. Indeed, I can tell her Government invite this sort of conflict? That is what is that we are the only country to have attempted, let worrying me. alone achieved, the transition from the kinds of subsidies Clause 105 says that there will be no diminution of that dominate worldwide to the subsidy system that the habitats regulations’ requirements, but the judgment we are replacing them with, based on the condition of on this is left to the Minister, and, although he will the delivery of public goods. Through the Bill, we are 1625 Environment Bill [LORDS] Environment Bill 1626

[LORD GOLDSMITH OF RICHMOND PARK] the most nature-depleted countries in the world? Whatever the only country to legislate to clean up our international balance we seek, it must be a balance where the needle footprint. I believe that we are introducing a world shifts from the past towards a position on the dial first in net gain. I could go on with many other where nature is given higher priority. That is what I examples. The idea that the Bill represents a declaration and many other Peers who have spoken in this debate of war on nature is frankly absurd. and previous debates in Committee firmly believe. I think the Minister shares that belief. The Duke of Montrose (Con) [V]: I am grateful to The second point is about the combination of trust, my noble friend the Minister for expressing concern consultation and non-regression. My noble friend for the rural economy and farming, but the only Lady Boycott gave a compelling example of why we question is whether, without this amendment, it is a should not take things on trust—why we have to look continuing commitment. It was interesting to hear at what is happening on the ground rather than honeyed him thread together his arguments about the habitats words that we might hear. The noble Baroness, Lady directive and how it is safeguarded under the Bill. Bennett of Manor Castle, also referred to the I asked about the position on permitted development Government’s commitment to non-regression, which rights for farmers—perhaps he would like to write the Minister did not actually repeat but I think he to me. implied. It is not that we do not trust the Minister, but trust is something that has to be borne by future Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con): I apologise generations of Governments and many of us would to the noble Duke if I did not answer all his questions. like to see some tweaking of the Bill to underpin that I will scan Hansard and write to him to fill in any gaps trust. that I left. The final point that came up in the debate, which Lord Krebs (CB): I thank all Peers for their the noble Baroness,Lady Young of Old Scone,mentioned, contributions to this very interesting and well-informed was the question of whether this is really all about debate, and I thank the Minister for his reply. I listened cutting red tape. The noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, very carefully to what he said, and he certainly made gave us the impression that, in her view, there is a need some encouraging noises. He reiterated that the to cut excessive bureaucracy that we have inherited Government wish to ensure that we do not reduce from the European Union. existing protections and that we want to create a more I will take away and reflect on what the Minister nature-rich Britain. I understood, I hope correctly, has said, but I end with one final comment, picking up that there will be some Green Paper consultation on on something that the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, changes to the habitats regulations and that, in making said, about the biodiversity metric. Yesterday, I read a any changes, the Secretary of State will consult the very powerful criticism of the biodiversity metric by office for environmental protection. The Minister did Professor Katherine Willis, a member of the Natural not mention the other bodies that I listed—Natural Capital Committee until it was disbanded. She argues England and the Joint Nature Conservation that the metric, as currently developed by Defra and Committee—but I hope that the Secretary of State Natural England, is absolutely not fit for purpose. will also consult them. In response to the noble Baroness, Among the many other meetings that he is now Lady Parminter, he also confirmed that there would committing himself to, is the Minister prepared to be some form of impact assessment related to any meet me, Professor Willis and perhaps some other proposed changes. interested Members of this House to review these In spite of that, having listened to what the noble criticisms of the biodiversity metric and, perhaps at Baroness, Lady of Young of Old Scone, just said, I the same time, to discuss any changes in wording to think that a number of us are not totally convinced Clauses 105 and 106? In the meantime, I beg leave to and wonder why, if the Government’s intentions are so withdraw. genuinely for nature, they are not prepared to make some relatively modest changes to Clause 105 and, Amendment 255 withdrawn. possibly, if not remove Clause 106, certainly change its wording to give us in the Bill the reassurance that the 6.45 pm Minister is prepared to give us at the Dispatch Box. Amendment 256 not moved. I will also comment on a few points that were made by various contributors to the debate. Many Peers, including the noble Duke, the Duke of Montrose, my Amendment 257 noble friend Lord Devon, the noble Baronesses, Moved by Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park Lady McIntosh of Pickering and Lady Hayman of 257: Clause 105, page 106, line 15, at end insert “or (Environmental Ullock, and the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, spoke targets: species abundance)” about the balance between the needs of nature and the Member’s explanatory statement needs of people. None of us doubts that there is a See the explanatory statement for new Clause (Environmental balance to be struck, and we do not know exactly what targets: species abundance). that balance is. But what we do know, without any question—I do not think anybody in this Chamber or Amendment 257 agreed. elsewhere could deny it—is that, in the past, the balance has been in favour of human exploitation, wealth and Amendments 257A to 257B not moved. economy, and against nature. Otherwise, if we have not got it wrong in the past, why are we living in one of Clause 105, as amended, agreed. 1627 Environment Bill [12 JULY 2021] Environment Bill 1628

Clause 106: Habitats Regulations: power Tree preservation orders provide an established route to amend Part 6 for protecting trees as part of the local environment. Trees in conservation areas also benefit from protection Amendment 257C not moved. in law. However, decisions on the felling of trees should ultimately remain a matter of local determination. Clause 106 agreed. There is a risk that the new duty will be bureaucratic, Amendment 257D not moved. and a lot of care must be taken that it does not clash with the existing duties—for example, the statutory Clause 107 agreed. duty to consult if street trees are to be removed as part of a housing development. Schedule 15 agreed. As a whole, this Bill relies significantly on secondary legislation. We have seen quite a bit of detail on The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Russell proposals to be enacted by regulation in other areas of Liverpool) (CB): Wenow come to the group beginning such as waste, but less in this case. My amendment with Amendment 257E. Anyone wishing to press this would require the Government to consult fully with or anything else in this group to a Division must make local government and others on the impact of the that clear in debate. guidance before it is taken forward. It may be that the Minister can provide greater assurance today on this Clause 108: Local highway authorities in England to issue,which would make such an amendment unnecessary. consult before felling street trees I do not of course intend to push my amendment to a Division. However, it is an important issue: when we Amendment 257E put forward legislation, we should have a clear Moved by Lord Kerslake understanding of how it will impact on individual areas up and down the country. 257E: Clause 108, page 107, line 33, at end insert— My second amendment, Amendment 257F, would “(2A) Before giving any guidance, the Secretary of allow local authorities to set exemptions locally, in State must undertake detailed consultation on the impact of the guidance with local authorities.” addition to the reasons for exemptions set out in the Bill. Councils must have a workable set of exemptions, Lord Kerslake (CB) [V]: My Lords, I first declare so that they can protect the public from harm and act my interest as the recently stood-down president of quickly to prevent the spread of pests and diseases. I the Local Government Association. My other interests am concerned that the areas for exemption on the face are as listed in the register. I take this opportunity to of the Bill may be too narrowly defined and again apologise that a technical problem prevented me from have unintended consequences in their implementation. speaking to my Amendment 201D last week. I plan to These are two practical amendments about the return to this on Report. delivery of policy that do not challenge the intent. I I shall speak today to two amendments in my name. beg to move. Amendments 257E and 257F seek to require the Secretary of State to understand the impact of the new duty of Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab) [V]: My Lords, consult residents on the felling of street trees on this is the tree group of amendments: we seem to have councils before the duty is set out in guidance and to quite a large number of them clustered together. I allow a local highways authority to create a local declare my interest as chairman of the Woodland Trust. exemption to the duty to consult. I am very conscious My Amendment 258 would give protection to ancient that I am tabling these amendments remotely from the woodland equivalent to that already provided for sites city of Sheffield where the origins of Clause 108 of special scientific interest. Ancient woodlands are at probably lie. Although not directly involved, my family least 400 years old. By their very age, they are one of home is some 15 minutes’ walk from where some of our most rich and complex communities of biodiversity, the most contentious issues arose. Suffice it to say that both above the ground and below in the soils and the tree-felling debacle in Sheffield has been a particularly mycorrhizal communities. Many of them are also unhappy episode in the life of the city. I hope that the historically and socially important. They have the new Labour and Green Party administration can finally added value, these days, of continuing to sequester lay this issue to rest. carbon every year that they continue in place. They are I can therefore well understand the desire to bring known as the cathedrals of the natural world. They in greater requirements on councils to consult before are irreplaceable—if you plant a new wood, it will not trees are felled. However, I am concerned that, in be an ancient woodland for 400 years at least—yet addressing an issue particularly related to the actions over 1,200 ancient woodlands across the UK are currently of one council, we do not inadvertently create a whole under threat from development: mostly housing, roads set of other problems for other councils. Local authorities and railways. Over the last 20 years, nearly 1,000 ancient are responsible for the management of many thousands woodlands have been permanently lost or damaged. of trees, so this will not be a small issue. Councils Many of the remaining fragments are small and incredibly generally work hard to protect and maintain the natural vulnerable to pressures from surrounding land or the environment, including urban trees. That is why a lot built environment. They are often much loved, and of councils have set out their long-term vision for trees trampled excessively out of love by dog walkers. They and are seeking ways to increase tree-planting, for are damaged by fly-tippers and subject to drift from example by working with local volunteer groups to agricultural operations. They currently have inadequate promote trees and woodlands. protection, hence the 1,200 currently on the threat list. 1629 Environment Bill [LORDS] Environment Bill 1630

[BARONESS YOUNG OF OLD SCONE] Amendment 259 would require the Government to Planners and developers are warned away from draw up and implement a biosecurity standard which developing on ancient woodland in the National Planning would apply to all planting of trees and shrubs by Policy Framework, except in “wholly exceptional” Governments,theiragenciesandcontractors.Thestandard circumstances. But the NPPF is not always observed would include a provision that all native tree stock and does not apply to major infrastructure projects—and would be “sourced from UK growers” and be certified who knows what will happen to the NPPF under as having been grown within the UK for its entire life. planning reform? Developers and planners are supposed At the moment, stock moves backwards and forwards to consult the ancient woodland inventory in order to between the UK and Europe for stages of its rearing, avoid trashing ancient woodland through their with all the risks of tree disease importation. The development. They can see where there is ancient amendment would be good for woods, trees, nature woodland and try to avoid it. However, the inventory and landscapes, and would represent a major opportunity is pretty out of date, it was always geographically for job creation in an expanded UK tree nursery industry. patchy, and it does not list a large number of small The Woodland Trust’s UK and Ireland sourced and sites. Very late in the day, it is now slowly being grown assurance standards will have produced 27 million updated. home-grown trees between 2014 and 2024. More and My amendment seeks to use a well-known, long- more nurseries are taking part. We applaud the standing and comparatively easy and effective model, Government’s commitment to an exponential uplift in the system used for protecting sites of special scientific the number of trees planted, in the interests of climate interest, to protect ancient woodland. Planners and change and biodiversity, and major taxpayer money is developers have been working with SSSI rules for going to be invested. So there is no time to lose. We 70 years. SSSI status was part of the post-war settlement need more than a voluntary scheme; we need a statutory introduced in 1949. It is a well-known process, so we basis for the standard. We need a clear future estimate would not be inventing new bureaucracy, simply adding of the number of trees required, so that nursery businesses gently to existing regulations. I am not saying by my can grow in the UK and get on with confidence to proposal that ancient woodlands should meet the develop a UK-based capacity to meet the demand for biodiversity standards outlined in SSSI regulations, safe trees. but that all ancient woodlands entered on the ancient My Amendment 260 places a duty on the Government woodland inventory would be protected from to prepare, maintain and report on a tree strategy for development, would be monitored in respect of their England and to produce targets for the protection, condition and would be required to be managed to restoration an expansion of trees in woodlands in reach and maintain ecological status, under the same England. I welcomed the Government’s recent England processes that are in place for SSSIs. trees action plan, which is, to all intents and purposes, I hope the Minister will seek to assure me that the a tree strategy. But it is non-statutory and, as we all England trees action plan has lots in it to help protect know, Governments come and go and Ministers come ancient woodland by bringing in measures to support and go. I hope that the Government are going to be long-established woods—woods established before 1840— consulting on tree targets of the sort I have touched for example by bringing in schemes to increase buffering on. So, if there is to be a tree action plan and tree around the smaller fragments, and by the removal of targets, why not just make them statutory? Can the inappropriate conifer overplanting on ancient woodland Minister tell us why he is not keen on a statutory basis sites. We may see targets for ancient woodlands, but for these two issues? there is nothing quite like statutory protection on I support Amendment 260A in the name of the existing highly threatened sites, and it could be so noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, to which I have put my simply achieved by my amendment to stop the rot. name. We will be planting 30,000 hectares of trees a Otherwise, our children and their children will judge year to meet our carbon and biodiversity targets. This us harshly for our record of destruction of these very will be severely compromised if damage, not just by English cathedrals of the natural world. SSSIs were an disease, but by deer in particular, is not reduced to iconic part of the post-war settlement. Let us have below its current level. The standard proposed would ancient woodland protection as an iconic part of the need to be based on clear evidence on tree losses post-Covid settlement. following proper assessment and to be set in a framework of landscape-scale deer management plans across multiple I turn to my Amendment 259 on a biosecurity owners. As the noble Earl will no doubt say, part of standard when planting trees using public money. Tree the current problem is landowners who do not undertake disease resulting from importing seeds, young plants, control and who could wreck the efforts of others and more mature stock from abroad has been disastrous around them to control damaging pests such as deer. I for the health and existence of our woodlands, their therefore hope that he receives support for his amendment. biodiversity and our landscapes. There is now a pest or disease for virtually every species of native tree. Many noble Lords will remember Dutch elm disease and 7 pm how dramatically it changed the nature of our landscapes. The Earl of Kinnoull (CB) [V]: My Lords, it is a We now have oak diseases, oak processionary moth, great pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Young and, of course, with ash dieback we will lose millions of Old Scone, who spoke with her typical authority of ash trees and change the face of the countryside and strong logic. I declare my interests as set out in the and its wildlife dramatically. The incidence of new register, particularly those in respect of agriculture pathogens entering the UK mirrors exactly the rise in and as chair of UK Squirrel Accord, of which more plant imports. later. 1631 Environment Bill [12 JULY 2021] Environment Bill 1632

I shall speak to Amendment 260A, which stands in those who are interested enough to participate in the my name, and Amendment 259 in the name of the UK Squirrel Accord, I think people will obey that, but noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone. One plank I feel that some motorway and railway agencies in of this Bill is afforestation. We have heard much particular are doing nothing at the moment and therefore throughout the many days of debate on the Bill about have a lot of safe harbours for the squirrel. the benefits of carbon capture and the biodiversity I will say a brief word on the cost of compliance. I dividend of afforestation. It is worth recalling that the congratulate the National Forest Company, which has level of afforestation in the United Kingdom in 1919, employed volunteers to help with some of its control just after the First World War, was just 5%. Today, it is issues, greatly reducing any costs that may be involved. 13%, but the 2021 EU factsheet on afforestation for I believe there is a significant number of volunteers—the the EU shows that it is 37% afforested. In his very UK Squirrel Accord is very much in touch with them— good speech at Second Reading, my noble friend who would assist with that and therefore help with the Lord Cameron of Dillington pointed out that it is cost element. important to balance food production with forestry I turn briefly to Amendment 259. I feel that the on our limited land area, but I still feel that 13% is the science will get there for Amendment 260A in the end, wrong number and needs to go up significantly. I agree and we will have sufficient scientific weapons to be with many others who have said that over the course able to reduce the level of grey squirrels in the country of our many days. so that it will be commercially possible to plant broadleaf The problem is that simply planting trees is not trees in the south of England again. We will hear enough. Amendment 260A is about the management about that from later speakers. The difficulty is that of the main animal damage threats,while Amendment 259 the disease problems associated with importing trees, is its biosecurity analogue. The squirrel problem is particularly pest problems such as the oak processionary very simple in that grey squirrels ring-bark trees between moth, fill me with an appalling dread. Here I very the ages of about 10 and 40 and suck out the sap. This much agree with what the noble Baroness, Lady Young, damages the trees and kills many of them. UK Squirrel said just a moment ago. It is important to be a bit like Accord was formed five or six years ago to try to a Chinese doctor and act before some of these problems combat this at a UK level. It comprises the four arise,and act very strongly indeed. Both these amendments Governments, their nature agencies, the main voluntary are enabling provisions for afforestation. We will not bodies and the main commercial sector bodies. There get there without them. are 40 signatories overall. It seeks to co-ordinate not only communication among those bodies so that Lord Lucas (Con) [V]: My Lords, I am very pleased everybody knows what is going on but the use of to be able to follow the noble Earl. I declare an interest science in controlling squirrels, and that science will of as an owner of a plantation on an ancient woodland course be able to be used for the control of deer. site, mostly replanted in 1986. I reckon that my cumulative The key thing at the moment is the fertility control loss to squirrels is about 60%. There are areas of the project, which is getting to the end of its third year at wood where nothing has survived except the coppice the Animal and Plant Health Agency’s main laboratories regrowth, and a lot of that is damaged. I have been just outside York. The project will do exactly what it trying to control squirrels throughout that time. This says on the tin, which is to control the fertility of grey is a really serious problem if we want to take trees squirrels and therefore shrink their numbers dramatically. seriously, particularly if we want them to be commercial. This year saw a very interesting piece of academic I therefore very much support Amendment 260A. It research by the Royal Forestry Society on the level of would be a really useful way to go, getting us all the problem that the grey squirrel poses to afforestation. working together in the same direction. It is called An Analysis of the Cost of Grey Squirrel Deer are important too. Those who know the border Damage to Woodland. It is quite a lengthy report, and between Wiltshire and Dorset will know the troubles I shall not give your Lordships all the details, but the RSPB has had in Garston Wood with the herd of 777 land managers were surveyed. They said clearly fallow deer it had there. It got zero regeneration at the that the greatest threat to them in trying to grow end of the day because there were just too many deer. woodland was the grey squirrel, and 56% of them said It has now excluded them, which is not fun for the that they were experiencing damage quotients of between local farmers, but at least it solves the RSPB’s problem. 35% and 100%, with only 14% feeling that the damage However, generally we have to recognise our position quotient was less than 5%. I should say in addition in this ecosystem. We are very important as the top that the oak tree, which is one of the most iconic predators—the controller of what happens with species for our country, is the greatest supporter of herbivorous activity—and if we want particular species biodiversity, with some 2,000 species supported by and kinds of things to grow, we must act on that oak trees. responsibility. The UK Squirrel Accord and its associated voluntary We need to start to understand how regeneration is bodies are extremely worried about there being safe working around us. Oak regeneration does not seem zones for squirrels because some people do nothing. to be happening at all, something that is echoed by The biggest problems we see in those safe zones are other people in the south of England. I do not know patrolled by Amendment 260A. First, if you have been what circumstances need to change to make the ecology in receipt of a grant or if you are a public body—this right for that. These are things that, with a big ambition is a very big problem—you must comply with the for forestry, we need to understand. We do not want to animal damage protection standard. If you are somebody have to be for ever planting trees; we ought to be able else, you will be encouraged to comply with it. Given to rely on a pattern of regeneration. 1633 Environment Bill [LORDS] Environment Bill 1634

[LORD LUCAS] 7.15 pm I am very much in favour of the direction of In terms of biosecurity, too, I am very aware that Amendment 259. We need to be quite strict about the the noble Lord, Lord Gardiner—who used to be Minister diseases that we let into this country. We have a very for Defra in this House and was replaced by the noble limited degree of biodiversity when it comes to trees Lord, Lord Benyon—was a great advocate of biosecurity. and shrubs; we have about 30 different ones, around I always looked forward to him coming to the Dispatch one-tenth of what an ideal temperate woodland would Box to reassure us that one of his key missions was to have by way of variety—courtesy of the Ice Ages, ensure that this country’s biosecurity was improved. mostly, and the opening of the Channel but also, As noble Lords have already said, this is a huge subsequent to that, the effect that man has on restricting challenge, not just in terms of trees but in other areas the natural movement of plant species. We need, as the as well. However, trees certainly focus this because Forestry Commission is setting out to do, to improve they make such a big difference to the landscape. our genomic diversity within species as well as the Where I live in Cornwall, I have some splendid ash number of species that we have. trees along the frontage by the road. It would be a While I do not at all resent the activities of the huge change for me and for the landscape if those Romans and others in bringing across chestnuts, for disappeared. At the moment they are in good condition, instance, or the buddleia in my garden—a cousin to but I expect that that will change at some season in the many that are spread over the south downs—I do not future. Again, I am sure that my colleagues are entirely think additional biodiversity hurts us. We are a very behind finding a way of pushing forward this amendment. impoverished ecosystem and should be able to stand On the amendments I have put my name to, I turn some introductions—but not, please, diseases. We have to Amendment 260 from the noble Baroness, Lady Young seen the devastation caused by ash dieback around of Old Scone, on a tree strategy. What she says makes here in Eastbourne. With a limited ecosystem, each a lot of sense. We all remember that there was almost disease is a big hit, and we do not want to risk more of an outbidding by political parties on tree planting in that because it will take a very long time before we the last two general elections. I sometimes wondered have a more diverse forest population. where these trees were going to come from. What was However, I am not convinced by Amendment 258. the highest bid? I think we got into the billions, but I As I said, I own a plantation on an ancient woodland cannot remember. While one welcomes that competitive site, and an SSSI designation would be a disaster. edge, the real issue is about delivery, followed by tree There is so much needed to do to make it better. The management, where they are planted, the types of point of an SSSI is that you pick on a bit of landscape species that are planted, and the balance between that is as you wish it to be, and the focus is then on climate change, biodiversity and even the commercial keeping it as it is and making it difficult for people to sector, so that we know where we are going. change it. A plantation on an ancient woodland site When it comes to moving those action plans into a means a lot of restoration to do, and you do not need proper strategy, strategies can often be made, forgotten the level of bureaucracy that goes with being an SSSI. and put on the shelf. However, I believe that that I would be happy to have something to give it greater investment, which is for a hundred years, is a strategy protection against invasion by planners but not something that we understand; it is generally accepted and is that stops the woodland owner from making it a better based on the science and the nature recovery networks. wood. This is something that I would welcome, and I hope the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, will Lord Teverson (LD): My Lords, I welcome this pursue it. group on the subject of trees. As we know from the No one so far has talked about peatlands, which are work of the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old dealt with in Amendment 283. I am very pleased to Scone, and the Woodland Trust, which I think she put my name to that amendment in the name of the chairs, only some 7% of our woodland is in good noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch. This is a condition. We have a very small percentage of cover— very contemporary and high-profile issue. As I have 13%—as has been noted by the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, said before, I had the privilege last month of going on and ancient woodland covers roughly 2.5% of our to Bodmin Moor and seeing the peatland restoration area. there. It is a massive task that is gradually moving I have put my name to Amendments 260 and 283, through our countryside, particularly in uplands, but I shall start with some comments on Amendments moorlands and such areas. We are working to protect 258 and 259 about ancient woodlands and SSSIs. I biodiversity or, in many cases, using natural solutions very much take the comments of the noble Lord, to stop run-off and flooding downstream, as well as Lord Lucas, in that SSSIs can be complicated areas carbon sequestration, and these areas are jewels in our involving many rules. One issue that we have not countryside and landscape. This is one of the habitats tackled in the Bill, and which appals me, is that—if I and ecosystems that is particularly important to the have this right—the target by which to get 75% of United Kingdom, and we hold a large proportion of SSSIs in good condition is 2045. I am sure the Minister global blanket peatlands. will put me right if I am wrong, but it is an atrocious We should protect these areas better. I find it very statement of where we are and where we intend to be if difficult to understand why we still permit peat burning that is the case. Having said that, I can say on behalf in those areas. I understand why, commercially, that is of my colleagues that we would very much welcome often the case for grouse shooting in other areas, but this sort of amendment, even if it were not drafted this is clearly something that we need to change. We exactly as at present. also need to change altogether peat extraction for 1635 Environment Bill [12 JULY 2021] Environment Bill 1636 horticultural purposes, where we have had a complete ancient woodland—which, as the amendment is drafted, failure of voluntary schemes. I will be interested to does not even need to be of special scientific interest to hear from the Minister where we are on that as well. qualify for Natural England’s protection. I support this amendment very strongly, but may I I am not sure that I can support Amendment 259, ask Hansard just to stop reporting for a minute? I have also in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Young. I an environmental confession to make. I used to be in understand that they think that a policy of diversity the freight industry and I operated a transport depot and freedom of movement, as far as flora and fauna very near to where my noble friend Lady Bakewell are concerned, could introduce unwanted tree diseases, lives at the moment, on the Somerset Levels in a place but could it not equally prevent the importing of other called Bridgwater—that is Bridgwater in Somerset, tree species with genetic resistance to diseases? What where you do not have an “E” in the middle of the would Capability Brown and Humphry Repton have word; if you put one in, it is very bad. One thing that I achieved without the exotic cedar of Lebanon or the used to transport was cut peat for horticultural purposes magnificent Wellingtonia? I confess that I am sceptical out of the Somerset Levels. I apologise to my colleague about whether the Secretary of State’s adoption of a that I ever did that; it was before such things were even “biosecurity standard” would actually have a positive realised. But now we have no excuse for that sort of impact on the natural environment. commercial activity. On that basis, I give complete personal backing to Amendment 283 from the noble I have some sympathy with the noble Baroness, Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch. Lady Young, in her Amendment 260, because the tree strategy is perhaps too modest in its aim to raise TheDeputyChairmanof Committees(BaronessWatkins England’s woodland cover from 10% to just 12% by of Tavistock) (CB): The noble Baroness, Lady Bennett 2050. The Conservative Party’s manifesto commitment of ManorCastle,haswithdrawnfromthissetof amendments, was to plant 30,000 hectares of trees a year across the so I call the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard. UK by 2025. It is therefore impossible to measure the extent to which the tree strategy meets the manifesto Viscount Trenchard (Con) [V]: My Lords, I agree commitment, which sadly shows yet another instance with the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, that decisions on where the devolved authorities will not, but should, the felling of roadside trees should remain a matter for co-operate together to agree on a single national tree local determination, and I support Amendment 257E. strategy. It is right that the Secretary of State should have to Sir William Worsley, chairman of the Forestry consult extensively with local authorities before he Commission, has said that it will work with the devolved issues guidance on a public consultation, as provided Administrations to deliver a UK-wide step change in for in Clause 108, which adds a new section to the tree planting and establishment. I am not sure whether Highways Act 1980. There is a risk that the new duty the England trees action plan is exactly the same as the will be too bureaucratic, and care should be taken to proposed “Tree Strategy for England” from the noble ensure that any guidance issued does not encourage Baroness, but given the number of statutory targets that. proposed in the Bill, the absence of one for trees seems I also support the noble Lord in his Amendment 257F, to stand out. I look forward to hearing my noble which allows local authorities to decide which exemptions friend the Minister’s views on this. there should be to the new duty to consult before felling any roadside trees. Councils should be free to I also sympathise with Amendment 260A, in the take quick action to protect the public from harm, names of the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, my noble including against the spread of pests and diseases. friends Lord Colgrain and Lord Caithness, and the Councils do not always get these things right, however, noble Baroness, Lady Young. However, I am not quite and the Committee may remember the outcry when sure how the standard would actually work. As the South Tyneside Council cut down six horse chestnut Committee is aware, deer and grey squirrels, among trees to prevent children gathering conkers in 2004. At other species, can cause great damage to young trees. I the time, my noble friend Lord Callanan was MEP for worry that the Animal Welfare (Sentience) Bill, now the north-east, and he described the pruning as before your Lordships’ House, may become a medium “the nanny state gone mad.” for increasing restrictions on the control and culling of animals that cause damage to young trees. Does my He said that: noble friend the Minister recognise that the entire “In years gone by people didn’t try to rule lives in quite the countryside and farming community would applaud same way as this. I wonder if the council will follow this to its natural conclusion and cut down all the trees in South Tyneside him if he and my noble friend Lord Benyon were to so that children won’t hurt themselves climbing up them.” make the sensible decision to withdraw that Bill and I hope that any guidance issued by the Secretary of use the available parliamentary time to better effect? State with regard to the felling of trees would aim to Lastly, I will comment on Amendment 283, in the discourage councils from taking such disproportionate names of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, action to prevent the citizen from each and every risk and others. First, its heading refers to the burning of he undertakes when he passes his garden gate. peat, but the text of subsection (1) refers to the burning As for Amendment 258 in the name of the noble of vegetation on peatland. As has been pointed out, Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, I think it may be the two are very different. The prohibition of the unnecessary, because ancient woodland sites worthy rotational burning of heather is likely to increase the of protection are already included within the category burning of peat because old, dry heather is very susceptible of sites of special scientific interest. I cannot see any to uncontrolled wildfires in the summer months, which sufficient reason to create a separate category of land— are much more likely to lead to the burning of peat. 1637 Environment Bill [LORDS] Environment Bill 1638

[VISCOUNT TRENCHARD] purchased and planted as part of a carbon offsetting My experience of assisting my father in managing scheme by global corporates. A lot of the planting has moorland in Angus, in the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s, been indiscriminate, without due regard to soil type or showed that the rotational burning of heather is hugely carbon sequestration potential and without assessing beneficial to biodiversity.Moorland where this is practised the risk of disease. We must not make these mistakes. sustains much greater numbers of butterflies, caterpillars, Identification of land quality in areas suitable for hen harriers, golden plover, black game and short-eared growing a specific mix of tree species to optimise owls, besides the obvious higher numbers of red grouse. long-term carbon sequestration is essential. To plant Could the Minister confirm his remark on 18 March, vast areas of land with tree cover—30,000 hectares a that the Government will year,for example—to ease our climate change conscience “continue to listen to the science and keep our policy and our and potentially become part of the carbon market minds open”?—[Official Report, 18/3/21; col. 529.] without clear guidance on tree species and topography In any event, I cannot support this amendment, which would be hugely irresponsible. I think would have an effect that is the reverse of its This strategy would help to reduce this risk and mover’s intent. hopefully maximise the benefits: economic benefits; environmental benefits in terms of both carbon and 7.30 pm biodiversity; and, importantly, public access benefits. Sitting suspended. The adequate protection of trees from a variety of predators is of course also essential, as suggested in 8 pm Amendment 260A, and could be part of a tree strategy. Lord Curry of Kirkharle (CB) [V]: My Lords, it is a I encourage the Minister to think about this very pleasure to follow the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard. seriously indeed. I wish to speak to Amendments 259 and 260 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Lord Blencathra (Con): My Lords, I declare my Scone, and to comment on Amendment 260A in the interests as in the register. I rise to commend the name of my noble friend Lord Kinnoull. I once again statements by the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old state my interests, as far as this debate is concerned, as Scone, and her excellent moving of the amendments. a trustee of Clinton Devon Estates and chair of the She set out the case admirably. I also agree with what Cawood group. was said by the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, and just Much comment has already been made in this now by the noble Lord, Lord Curry of Kirkharle. debate about tree health, including the deep concern I strongly believe that ancient woodlands must be about biosecurity and tree diseases and the need for a protected where possible since they cannot be created tree strategy. Given the Government’s ambition to except through a process that takes 400 to 500 years. plant 30,000 hectares of trees each year to improve This means that all developments that would remove tree cover and for climate change mitigation, and with them or parts of them or damage them must be the perilous state of tree health in Britain, the need for avoided, and only in very exceptional circumstances a tree strategy is undeniable. As has been said already, should an ancient woodland be harmed. There should it was a tragedy when we lost our elm trees to Dutch be a presumption against all developments affecting elm disease; what a lovely tree the elm is. Our ash trees them. are now at risk from ash dieback, not to mention our The suggestion by the noble Baroness, Lady Young larch. We have in our garden an ash tree that will have of Old Scone, in Amendment 258 is ingenious and I to be felled soon because it is infected. A recent have some sympathy with it. However, I am not certain forecast predicted that more than 90% of ash trees will that classifying every ancient woodland site—I think be taken out by ash dieback. Most of our fence she mentioned 1,200 of them—that has been wooded lines—our field divisions—in Northumberland are since 1600 AD as an SSSI automatically is the right populated by ash trees; it is the most dominant species. answer. As I understand it—I think the noble Viscount, Many are mapped as part of stewardship audits and Lord Trenchard, made this point—there is nothing to are the homes of little owls, for example, and many prevent any woodland being classified as an SSSI right other species, so their disappearance will be a disaster now if it meets the current criteria. I would prefer to both visually and environmentally, as the noble Lord, see ancient woodlands assessed individually and, if Lord Teverson, mentioned. suitable, declared—each one on its merits—an SSSI. I Biosecurity is so important. We must reduce our must also say to the noble Baroness that I do not think dependence on imported tree stock. As the noble that it is legally possible to mass nominate dozens or Viscount, Lord Trenchard, said, this does not mean even hundreds of pieces of land and to do it en masse, that we need to ban imported trees completely, but a whatever features are on them. biosecurity plan would be able to identify the tree As someone on the board of Natural England who species that we could safely import. Outside the European has to decide on new SSSIs or extensions to them, I Union, we can grow our own and in doing so support can tell the House that it is an incredibly detailed and the rural economy. The Government should see this as exacting procedure. Officials must produce reams and yet another important opportunity. reams of scientific justification and strict legal protocols The tree strategy should not only include our ambition must be followed, with all affected landowners entitled to plant trees but incorporate the appropriate biosecurity to make representations and appeals. If over that two measures and guidance on a species mix to minimise or three-year process we put one foot wrong, we are disease spread. I spent some time early last year in straight into judicial review territory, which I should New Zealand, where large numbers of farms are being say has never happened yet. There might be an argument 1639 Environment Bill [12 JULY 2021] Environment Bill 1640 for simplifying the procedure—we certainly need to do When I spoke to officials on rabbit control, they that in the case of declaring new national parks or informed me that there had been a marvellous AONBs—but, for the moment, we have to follow the breakthrough in that contraceptive pills were now current law.Thus, while the noble Baroness’samendment 100% effective if eaten by the rabbits—but they could is ingenious, it will not stand up. not find any way to make the rabbits eat them. I said On Amendment 259, I am 100% behind her. This is that we did not need to spend another £250,000 not a “little Englander”new clause. For tens of thousands researching the effects of ferrets and shotguns on of years, our native fauna have survived and developed rabbit populations, which had been proven to work in in a habitat of native British flora. Putting it simply, the past. But the problem was—and I think still is—that we cannot have red squirrels unless we have the native the department, understandably, was looking for huggy, woods producing the nuts, fruits and seeds they normally squeezy, nice ways to control rabbits, and we have the eat. The Back from the Brink project to recover 20 species same attitudes today dealing with grey squirrels, from near extinction depends on native habitats. As the destructive American tree rats. I recommend that colleagues will know, we face an increasing threat the Minister have a word with the noble Lord, from diseases unwittingly imported along with plants Lord Redesdale, who ran a highly successful programme sourced from abroad. Even if we step up biosecurity to deal with grey squirrels in Northumberland. With now that we have left the EU, there will still be an proper funding, that should be replicated throughout enormous risk of bringing in destructive bugs and the country. diseases. Nearly every single disease or bug that has We also need to eliminate the Chinese muntjac deer. destroyed our UK trees has been imported. If Xylella They are not a native species, either, and the damage fastidiosa—the most dangerous and lethal plant disease they do to our native flora is immense. I quoted that in the world—gets here, God help us. It can kill story about rabbits, but rabbits are not the main 595 different plant species in 85 different botanical problem now: squirrels and deer are. The point is that families. Our countryside and all our gardens would for over 40 or 50 years we have been researching how become wastelands. to deal with rabbits and have not got the solution. I No matter how good port control might be, even if wonder how many years we have been researching it is beefed up from the current inadequate levels, we dealing with grey squirrels. We cannot wait another cannot stop bugs and diseases coming in. Contractors 40 years until we find a solution. This proposed new will want to source the millions of trees and bushes clause cleverly does not state what the solution should needed for HS2 or Highways England road schemes be, but that there has to be an animal damage protection from the cheapest suppliers. At the moment, they are standard. That is a clever way to tackle the problem the huge Dutch growers; that is where diseases will and I commend it. come in. This is why a requirement on acquiring Toconclude the anecdote of the never-ending Ministry plants from UK sources is so important. As the noble of Agriculture rabbit research programme, I told that Baroness, Lady Young, said, it will also be good story in 1998 to the new Minister, who is now the business for UK nurseries, which can easily supply all noble Lord, Lord Rooker, who chuckled and said, that would be required in due course. “Don’t worry, David, we’re not so daft as to do that.” We have a huge range of UK native trees, and there Two weeks later, he came steaming up to me and said, is no excuse not to use them: noble Lords need only “You’ll not believe this, we’re still spending £700,000 look at the Woodland Trust website to see the range of on rabbit research”. Policies and Ministers change, but native species and all the animal, bird, butterfly and academic research goes on for ever. I am told that other species that depend on our native flora for there has been an amazing scientific breakthrough in survival. dealing with squirrels. The current research shows that contraceptive pills for grey squirrels, I can tell the Finally, I want to support Amendment 260A. We noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, are apparently will never achieve a fraction of the new woodlands 100% effective—but they still cannot get the squirrels that we wish to create unless we deal with rabbits, to eat them. It will take 10 more years of research, the which are no longer much of a problem, and grey experts will no doubt advise the Minister to pay for. squirrels and deer, which are. One day in 1990, the Omnia mutantur nihil interit: Everything changes but then Minister of Agriculture, John Gummer MP, asked nothing is lost. me, as junior Minister, to go through the MAFF research budget and root any unnecessary or wasteful research. Among others, I found a £250,000 programme The Earl of Devon (CB): My Lords, it is always a researching the effect of rabbits on new woodlands pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra. schemes, which the department was funding. There Much of what I was going to say has already been said was also one on controlling rabbits, which had been on by more eminent voices than mine, and, given that I the go since the 1940s, and another that was also have the lead amendment in the final group this evening, I running at £250,000 per annum and was on something will cut my comments quite short. I support the that I cannot recall. I called in officials and said, efforts of the noble Baroness, Lady Young, to introduce “Have you found that rabbits are eating the bark of a national tree strategy for England. If she does not new saplings and killing them?” They looked surprised achieve her national land-use strategy, this might very and asked if I had seen the report’s preliminary findings. well be the next best thing. We need a consensus that Remaining remarkably calm for me in the circumstances, is locally informed but nationally co-ordinated, so I pointed out that I was a countryman and did not that all areas of England can grow the trees that their need to spend £250,000 to discover that rabbits eat the local topography, climate and land-use heritage bark of young trees. recommend. 1641 Environment Bill [LORDS] Environment Bill 1642

[THE EARL OF DEVON] become controversial, but it has been used for generations I am also fully supportive of the thoughtful for moorland management and often in areas where Amendment 260A, which was well introduced by the there are no grouse. noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, regarding animal damage. I commend to noble Lords two papers that I have There is simply no point in planting broad-leaf trees in read recently. One is entitled “Experimental evidence the south-west of England on a commercial basis for sustained carbon sequestration in fire-managed, these days, as squirrels and deer execute them long peat moorlands”, published in Nature Geoscience in before they become viable. December 2018, and I quote from it: “we quantify the effects of prescribed burning … and show that 8.15 pm the impacts … are not as bad as is widely thought.” Biosecurity is also vitally important, but we cannot The second paper I commend is the report of the prohibit or unduly limit the importation of trees from Molland Moor project on Exmoor, where also there is abroad for two principal reasons. First, we simply do no grouse interest. This study was co-ordinated by the not have the nursery infrastructure to grow sufficient Exmoor National Park Authority and brought together stock on these shores to satisfy the demand, if the landowners, conservationists, farmers, ecologists and Government’s ambitious planting strategies are to be academics. The lessons learned from the project include: fulfilled. Secondly, our national forest is strengthened “We can regenerate heather by burning on as large a scale as by the introduction of foreign species: it improves possible … We can control the Molinia and reduce the stands of resilience and, with global warming an inevitability, bracken”. we need to be planting tree species in the south of The report comments that it is necessary to micromanage England that can withstand warmer weather during each small area, as there are so many variables. It the 250-plus years that some of the broad-leafs should continues: stand. “National policy makers must understand this. Molland Moor Finally, as for the controlled burning of peat and is hugely different” Amendment 283, given that this is not a common from the moor next door. land-management practice in Devon, which has no In March, we debated the Heather and Grass native grouse, I should probably keep out of the etc. Burning (England) Regulations 2021, which ban debate. However,on Dartmoor and Woodbury Common the burning without licence of heather on peat over we see increasing wildfire each summer, burning vital 40 centimetres in depth, on sites of special scientific peat habitats, often many metres deep, with terrible interest, in special areas of conservation and in special environmental consequences and the release of vast protection areas. In that debate, the noble Baroness, quantities of carbon. If controlled surface burning of Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville, talked with excessive vegetation would decrease the likelihood of local knowledge about terrible wildfires on Dartmoor this happening, while also encouraging young growth, and Bodmin Moor. The noble Earl, Lord Caithness, I do not see that it should be precluded. described a horrendous fire in Caithness and Sutherland in 2019. It burned for six days and emitted 700,000 tonnes of CO2 equivalent. I mention these fires as there is The Duke of Wellington (CB) [V]: My Lords, I plenty of evidence that controlled burning in relatively support Amendment 259, tabled by the noble Baroness, small strips at the right time of year and in the right Lady Young of Old Scone. It is tragic how many of place creates, among other outcomes, firebreaks against our native trees have died and are dying from imported wildfires. The risk of wildfires is greater on unmanaged diseases. I hope that the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, moorland, as old heather becomes woody and tinder-dry. will not mind me gently correcting him on one point. Wildfires do much more damage to peat and to the The giant sequoia tree—known in this country as the environment generally than controlled, limited burns, Wellingtonia—was imported from California many sometimes described as “cool burns”. years after Capability Brown and Humphry Repton. I also support Amendment 260A, tabled by the noble All I am saying, and I repeat that I have no direct Earl, Lord Kinnoull, and particularly the need, as has interest, is that this is a complicated matter on which been mentioned by a number of noble Lords, to try to the science is still evolving. Therefore, to include a ban find a way to control grey squirrels, who are certainly in the Bill would be inappropriate. I suggest to Ministers destructive of so many tree species in this country. that they consider and gather more evidence. Clearly, there should be rules, and perhaps they should be in a I now turn to Amendment 283 and wish to pose future regulation, but such rules must recognise that some questions. The amendment has been tabled by no two areas of land are ever exactly the same. Of the much-respected noble Baronesses, Lady Jones course, this general point may be one of the difficulties of Whitchurch, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb and of the new environmental land management schemes. Lady Bennett, and the noble Lord, Lord Teverson. I In conclusion, I could not support Amendment 283, often agree with them on their amendments, but on but I look forward to hearing the Minister’s view. this one I fear it is far too complex a matter to be solved simply by a ban on burning heather, bracken and other vegetation. I must make it clear that I have Baroness Boycott (CB): My Lords, it is a great no interest to declare, other than that one of my pleasure to follow the noble Duke,the Duke of Wellington. children is trying in Scotland—which I think is outside I absolutely agree with him that no two pieces of land the scope of this Bill—to regenerate heather in an area are exactly the same. where there are no grouse and have not been for many I support Amendment 260 in the names of the decades. So far there, they have not burnt heather but noble Baronesses, Lady Young and Lady Jones, the are experimenting with cutting. Heather burning has noble Earl, Lord Caithness, and the noble Lord, Lord 1643 Environment Bill [12 JULY 2021] Environment Bill 1644

Teverson, in particular proposed subsection (3) about Lord Colgrain (Con): My Lords, I draw attention to the percentage of native woodland and the new native my interests in the register. I have pleasure in supporting woodland that is achieved by natural regeneration. my noble friend Lord Kinnoull on his Amendment 260A. I draw the Committee’s attention to the work of The Government are setting ambitious tree-planting Professor Simard at the University of British Columbia. targets in their various plans, which is to be lauded, When she was 20, she was put to work on commercial but those targets in England are not only not being forestry—the process of clear-cutting large areas of met but, frankly, are being missed by a mile. Partly, old-growth forest and planting individual seedlings, this is to do with the delay in providing the much pine or birch, in neat and regimented rows. The thinking sought-after grant details associated with ELMS. was that, without any competitors, trees would grow More importantly, in my view, it is to do with the two faster, taller and stronger. Instead, they were more uncontrolled destroyers of trees: deer and grey squirrels. frequently found to be vulnerable to disease and climatic I know there is a body of opinion that views these two stress than the older trees, which shared their patch of mistily as Bambi or Landseer’s “The Monarch of the soil with other plants, mosses, firs and associated Glen”, or Beatrix Potter’s Squirrel Nutkin. But the lifeforms. In particular, she studied the newly planted reality, I am sorry to say, is that these pests have Douglas firs—great giants which provided valuable assumed the characteristics of vermin and, between wood to the logging companies. Ten per cent of those them, have made the planting of trees in many parts of plants invariably got sick and died whenever nearby England a completely uneconomic proposition. aspen, paper birch and cottonwood were removed. There are now more deer in the wild in England Initially, when she was 20—she is now 60—she did not than in the Middle Ages, and climate change will only know why, because the trees had plenty of light and help expand their number. By way of example, in west water, more than the old trees in the crowded forest. Kent, Knole Park had a very nice deer herd. The deer She worked through her life and in the end revealed fences were completely obliterated in the hurricane of and became the inventor of what is known as the 1987, and those 600 deer became the foundation of “wood wide web”. The forest, she wrote, is like the the indigenous population of fallow deer in our part internet, but instead of computers linked by radio of Kent. I am sure the same has been true of many waves, the trees are connected by fungi. There are other deer parks. In answer to the comment from the centres and satellites, with the oldest trees as the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, about SSSIs: a piece of biggest communication hubs. When the piece with her council land that was adjacent, that was an SSSI, was theory was published in Nature in 1997, it had that also completely obliterated in that hurricane. The title of “Wood Wide Web”, and the name has stuck. council has no money to replant that, and therefore it is never going to come back as the SSSI it once was. Once the underground pattern is understood, it is Looking forward to 2045, I do not think it is reasonable easy to see how seedlings can emerge in clear ground, to assume it will, to be honest. because they have been nurtured underground by other The grey squirrel population, not indigenous but trees, waiting for their moment to start growing. They an import gone feral, has exploded in number, to are being fed by the mother trees—the central hub the detriment of the red squirrel, all bird life—eggs that the saplings and seedlings spring from—with and chicks—and, most importantly, trees. Until the threads of different fungal species, of different colours Government contribute to taking responsibility for its and weights, linking them layer upon layer in the control, woodland owners, whether in the public or strong and complex web. When the forest is cleared private sector, are being asked to put good money and the mother trees are cut down, the forests lose after bad. This amendment is intended to address this. their way. The animal protection standard, as proposed, would Professor Simard’s discoveries have kept coming, ensure some accountability for public funds. It would and she now finds that trees support each other in ensure that land owned by the Government, local times of stress, drought or disease, and they can authorities, the Forestry Commission and agencies communicate needs and send supplies. Since Darwin, owning or operating public roads and railways would biologists have always maintained that survival is all be obliged to undertake control against deer and grey about the selfish gene, doing anything to get ahead squirrels. Given the parlous state of the public finances in the evolutionary race. But her work tosses that on and, in particular, the demands being placed on the its head. funds of local authorities, this amendment would necessitate proper commercial audit funds being invested We now understand that monocultures, whether of in woodland, rather than have tree planting be a crops, trees or any plant species, are not healthy. My palliative feel-good factor. plea would be that in the tree strategy we understand that all new planted forests and woods must be of multiple trees. I absolutely agree with the noble Earl, 8.30 pm Lord Devon, when he says we should start experimenting Some will see this amendment as of little consequence, with trees, especially in the south of England, that will but the outcome is that the money invested in the thrive in our newly warmed environment. But please planting of trees without these protections will result do not let us spend all our tree-planting money on in silviculture that lacks its commercial production monocultures which end up leaving dead soil beneath potential. It would also lack aesthetic appeal, with that is not home to myriad mosses and animals and, in dead and dying trees providing the possibility of injury fact, ends up sequestering much less carbon than a to the passing public, and increasing numbers of deer mixed forest growth. causing more and more road accidents. The private 1645 Environment Bill [LORDS] Environment Bill 1646

[LORD COLGRAIN] tot them up in that way, but I think that the costs will sector is doing what it can to control numbers by be significant. Can we really justify this, or should we shooting and, in the case of grey squirrels, trapping be finding a simpler way to deal with the problem of and poisoning, and the work being done with Defra the cutting down of trees alongside housing? funding to find a sterilisation or fertility vaccine, following Still on the subject of trees, I should add that I successful trials in the US, is to be welcomed. I assure could not find an impact assessment on the forestry my noble friend Lord Blencathra that if they are provisions in Clause 109 and Schedule 16, which are successful in that, I will get the squirrels in west Kent not being discussed. These appear to introduce very to eat what they are being asked to eat. wide-ranging powers to regulate and perhaps ban Private landowners need to know that if they are imports of products such as beef, rubber or soya that successful in controlling or even reducing deer and might be associated with wide-scale conversion of squirrel numbers, their efforts are being complemented forest. One obviously understands and supports the by the measures proposed in this amendment to reduce rationale for this—saving the rainforests—but it could public land providing sanctuary to these pests. Why have a huge impact on business and trade if done in would my noble friend the Minister not wish to support the wrong way. The Bill’s impact assessment is of this amendment? course out of date because it was prepared on 3 December 2019, and the Bill has not made as rapid progress as we would all have hoped. Is there a late addition on Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con): My Lords, it is a the forestry risk commodity proposals that could be pleasure to follow my noble friend Lord Colgrain, and shared with us before Report? I add that deer are a problem in my part of Wiltshire. In closing, I recognise the significance of the Bill Unfortunately, they also eat my roses. and my noble friend’s understandable wish to progress I am very glad to speak on the subject of trees, it, but there are many uncertainties for us to swallow which make Britain so special, captured for eternity because of the use of delegated powers. Even affirmative by John Constable and indeed by David Hockney. In resolutions, favoured by my noble friend Lord Blencathra, my career at Defra, I legislated for and launched the do not allow amendment to a set of regulations in the farm woodland scheme, which encouraged the planting light of parliamentary scrutiny, and it is very unusual especially of native oak and beech trees on agricultural for draft regulations to be withdrawn. That applies to land, working with Natural England’s very professional the trees regulations as well as to several other sets. predecessors. We also had a 33,000-hectare planting That is why, on Wednesday, I shall be moving an target for the Forestry Commission, which was quite amendment to sunset individual regulations after a forward looking, if one thinks about it. five-year period to allow a review of such provisions in Turning to the proposals before us, my impression the light of a cost-benefit analysis. An amendment of is that local authorities and highways authorities are this type might help to make some of us happier with paying more and more attention to the need to conserve the wide-ranging powers being taken here and the lack trees, so is there really a case for the heavy-handed and of clear plans showing how many of them will be detailed regulation in Clause 109? There is a cost, not deployed to deal with the sort of issues being raised in least to local authorities, and I agree with the noble this group of amendments and elsewhere in the Bill. Lord, Lord Kerslake, that there should be consultation on any guidance. Assuming that there is a harm and Lord Harries of Pentregarth (CB) [V]: I support that the case is made for new powers, I would be Amendments 258 to 260 in the name of the noble grateful for some idea from my noble friend the Minister Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone. Amendment 258 of the caseload expected. How will the consultation would place ancient woodlands, which are clearly defined take place? For example, will there be a paper notice in the amendment, on an equal footing with sites of on the tree or nearby lamp-post? Will there be any special scientific interest. The reason why it is so statutory consultees and how long will it take for important to preserve ancient woodlands from the approvals to be given? I would also welcome confirmation point of view of biodiversity, climate change, heritage that the pruning of trees will not be affected and will and health of both nature and human beings has indeed be encouraged. In my experience, councils do already been well spelt out, and I shall not repeat it. I not keep up to date with this at all well. Indeed, I have shall add only that their significance is perhaps even personal experience of an overhanging tree that was greater than that of sites of special scientific interest; missed two or three years ago, and which is causing a and the reasons put forward for why such sites need to lot of trouble to adjoining houses, notably mine. be protected are perhaps even stronger in the case of We also need to be aware that nature is not the only ancient woodlands. objective in road maintenance. The safety of pedestrians, Amendment 259 requires the Government to cyclists and drivers is important too. The latest fashion implement a tree-planting standard that makes biosecurity for leaving roadsides uncut can be dangerous, certainly an essential consideration—in particular, protecting in the lanes around my home in Wiltshire. The lusty our native trees from diseases coming from outside the green growth on banks and hedges makes it tight for UK. This welcome amendment relates to Amendment 31, passing cars and can hide cyclists, causing accidents. on tree health, standing in my name and debated earlier in Committee. Amendment 31 stated: Turning to the important issue of cost-benefit, “The Secretary of State must by regulations set targets in apparently the costs for the felling proposals total respect of trees, including targets on the overall health of tree £81 million over 10 years if you top up the figures in populations, particularly in respect of native species, research annexe 41, on page 260 of the statement of impacts. I into disease-resistant varieties,and progress in planting disease-resistant await a reply from officials as to whether it is right to varieties.” 1647 Environment Bill [12 JULY 2021] Environment Bill 1648

Sadly, as has been said many times this evening, the biodiversityof ourcountryside.However,thatintroduction trees in this country are in a terrible state. A few years made a very real impression on me, as the evidence ago, as we know, the magnificent English elm, such a drew my attention to what was being lost as ancient feature of our landscape when some of us were young, woodlands—fortunately in very small sections in my was completely wiped out by Dutch elm disease. Most case—were being given up to make way for the railway: recently, ash dieback has swept the whole country, from a matter that I know is of great concern to the noble the east coast to the west coast, in just a few years, Lord, Lord Blencathra. I have taken a close interest in leaving a trail of thin, leafless branches. Our oaks are them ever since, whenever I can get out into the suffering from a blight, and so are our chestnuts. countryside. The health of our trees must be a fundamental As I have said on several previous occasions, ancient consideration in assessing the overall health of our woodlands are not just about trees; they are, in short, environment. Ash dieback originated in Asia, where it havens of biodiversity of a kind that has been built up has little impact on the local species, and has moved over centuries. It is all too easy to overlook what is steadily west where, sadly, it has a deadly impact on going on at ground level. As the years go by, leaves native ash. Coming, I believe, from trees imported fall, the ground lies undisturbed and a carpet is built from Holland to East Anglia as recently as 2012, it has up which gathers together a huge variety of wildlife left a terrible trail, which breaks one’s heart to see, as I within the soil and on its surface. There is much else see it in west Wales. above ground level, too, in the trees themselves, in that In a highly globalised world, our native trees, like they provide food and shelter for other creatures. The the human population, are increasingly vulnerable older they are, the richer the habitat becomes. You and susceptible to diseases, which may do little harm cannot create, or indeed recreate, such an environment elsewhere but which are killers here. The need for tight overnight, or even in a few decades. That is why we biosecurity regulations and a clear standard of what is must redouble our efforts to preserve what remains of required is obvious. This requires an overall strategy, this part of our heritage as much as we can. involving not just government but other public authorities, Of course, many sites of special scientific interest and the amendment sets that out clearly. I very strongly contain ancient woodlands. Indeed, in their case it is support it. the woodlands themselves and the biodiversity that I also strongly support Amendment 260, which goes with them that justifies their listing in such sites. requires the Government to have a tree-planting strategy However, size matters when it comes to the listing of that contains targets for the protection, restoration SSSIs and, indeed, the other elements of diversity. and expansion of trees and woodland in England. Many areas of ancient woodland are too small to This chimes in well, but in much more valuable detail, justify that kind of listing. However, I wonder whether with an earlier amendment in my name, Amendment 12, that is a reason for discarding the idea that they are on the planting of new trees. There I set out the entitled to special protection. It may be that to protect reasons why we need to plant new trees—reasons every single one of them in the kind of scheme that is mainly to do with climate change, which I shall not referred to in this amendment goes a little too far, as repeat here. The amendment before us requires the the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, suggested. However, Government to have targets. Where I believe my earlier I would be very reluctant to rely simply on SSSIs as a amendment has something to add to the present one is means of protecting ancient woodlands. More needs that that Amendment 12 said to be done, which is why I support the thinking behind “The Secretary of State must lay before Parliament, and this amendment. publish, a statement containing information about progress towards meeting any targets set under subsection (3)(e) on an annual basis after any initial target is set (in addition to the requirements under section 5).” 8.45 pm Climate change is a threat of such urgency now that it Amendment 260 would require the Government to is not adequate just to have targets. We need an annual prepare a tree strategy for England. This is another report to Parliament on the progress being made to much-needed addition to what we can provide to meet those targets, and this my earlier amendments preserve and enrich this resource. Steps, however, also sought to ensure. However, this present amendment is need to be taken to greatly improve the protection we very welcome indeed because it sets out in detail what afford to trees, especially new trees, against animal such a target should include, and I strongly support it. damage. That is subject of Amendment 260A. I pay tribute to how the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, introduced Lord Hope of Craighead (CB) [V]: It is a pleasure to his amendment, and to the work he is doing to draw follow the noble and right reverend Lord. I support attention to what is needed for their care and management. the general message conveyed by most of the amendments His particular concern is damage by grey squirrels. in this group, but I single out for special mention Where I am, which is not all that far away from he is Amendments 258 and 260 in the name of the noble just now, is too high for squirrels; our problem is Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, and Amendment damage by brown hares, though I would certainly not 260A in the name of my noble friend Lord Kinnoull. wish to eliminate brown hares. Whatever the cause, Amendment 258 seeks to place ancient woodlands more needs to be done to bring this problem to the on an equal footing with sites of special scientific attention of those who ignore it, with the results that interest. I have to confess that it was not until I was the noble Earl has mentioned. introduced to them when I was sitting on the HS2 The creation of new native woodland by tree planting committee that I became truly aware of what ancient and natural regeneration is, of course, desirable. It is woodlands are and how much they contribute to the not, however, without some deficits to the wider 1649 Environment Bill [LORDS] Environment Bill 1650

[LORD HOPE OF CRAIGHEAD] than the ostensible purpose of the strategy itself. In environment that would need to be addressed in any many ways, this is more difficult to get right than tree strategy. I draw attention to two of them, to working out the specific target to achieve. In the case emphasise the need for a carefully planned, properly of forestry, we are looking for a considerable increase resourced and worked-out strategy. in the area of the country’s land surface growing trees. The first problem that concerns me is the protection Trees, however—this point was very well made by the against animal damage that is given to new trees. Until noble Lord, Lord Curry of Kirkharle—come in different now, we have almost always relied on plastic tubes to types and configurations. They can be planted in large protect them; these are unsightly and not biodegradable. blocks, known as forests, in smaller parcels, normally Too often, if the trees do not take, we are left with row known as woods, or individually. The issues they pose, upon row of tubes that disfigure the scenery. Even if as a number of speakers have said, are slightly different the trees do take, it is years before these cones split and in urban and rural locations. These nuances need are eventually covered up. Other means, surely, must careful thought and to be built into the policy. be found, that provide a more environmentally friendly On top of this, increased tree planting impinges on way of doing the same job. other land uses and livelihoods either based directly The second problem that concerns me relates to the on it or derived at arm’s length from it. For example, extent of natural regeneration. This will almost always in the Lake District, which I know well, the visitor require the culling of deer and other animals, or at economy is dependent on the open fells. If such land is least fencing to keep them out. That, however, comes planted up, regardless of any other consideration, it at a cost. A balance needs to be struck between the mayhave a serious impact on other apparently superficially priority that is given to trees and the losses that flow separate sectors of the economy. Similarly, obviously, from the exclusion of grazing animals. Grass cover most tree planting, which costs money, is likely to take that is out of control makes it impossible for low-growing place on land currently in agriculture. How is this flowers to flourish. I know several areas where what migration going to be effected? Is it by making tree was once rich meadow land has become a kind of planting more attractive or farming less so? We know desert for the botanist, as trees and grasses spread out that traditional farming is facing a gloomy outlook, of control. Areas once rich with thyme, field gentian, which is frightening many farming families. Perhaps centaury and harebell, for example, are at risk of we may see some development of the EU system of being lost to that kind of resource for ever. We should cross-compliance. not allow that to happen. Perhaps more can be done In this country, certainly since the town and country by using sheep in small numbers to control the grasses planning system came into place, rural Britain has in these areas, because the loss of flower diversity is as been seen as what I might describe as the natural much a matter of concern as that of trees. These are location for agricultural forestry. Now public policy just two reasons why a strategy for trees is so important. appears to be concluding that we need less farming Weneed more trees--but we need to pay careful attention and more forestry in rural Britain; they are no longer to how this resource is to be provided. as evenly balanced as they used to be. In the 18th and 19th centuries in England, the enclosure movement was precipitated by a change in farming practice Lord Inglewood (Non-Afl) [V]: My Lords, it is always responding to the increased demand for food brought a pleasure to follow the noble and learned Lord, Lord about by the Industrial Revolution. These changes, Hope of Craighead. He invariably has something which introduced a new economic and social dynamic interesting to say and, normally, when I find it is not into rural Britain, seem somewhat similar to those we interesting, it is about legal matters, but that is because are considering in this particular push for forestry I cannot understand what he is saying. That is my and, probably more widely, in the approach to the fault. I refer to my interests in the register, particularly environment. in forestry. I begin by underlining my support for trees, tree planting and ancient woodlands for all the obvious, The changes I have referred to caused, in turn, a well-understood and generally accepted reasons. real revolution in rural livelihoods, rural land use, I particularly underscore my support for the rural communities and rural land ownership. That is amendments of the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, about widely recognised and understood. Are these things pests and squirrels because, if they are not kept under that the Government are happy to bring about, either control, tree planting is very difficult. I equally support as a result of these policies or as a necessary precondition his remarks and those of the noble Baroness, Lady of their policies achieving what they are setting out to Young of Old Scone, about stock and phytosanitary do? In north-east Cumbria, small farmers who now protection. It is important to point out that this is not see no future for their current activities are selling out simply a matter of having legislation in place—you to large forestry companies. Do the Government support need an Administration that can act when appropriate. this, do they think it is a bad development or are they While we were members of the EU, the phytosanitary more or less indifferent to it, considering it a matter rules would have enabled us to put stipulations in solely for the invisible hand of the market? place about importing foreign stock if we were concerned It seems to me that the lesson of the enclosure about health. It did not happen because the relevant movements, and then the system of town and country part of Defra did not do anything about it. planning, is that changes in land use can have very My focus this evening is on trees and forestry far-reaching changes in rural Britain. These go far strategy, in particular the mechanics of delivering beyond the specific change itself. In this context, the whatever detailed strategy may be put in place, rather question I pose to the Government is: in their policy 1651 Environment Bill [12 JULY 2021] Environment Bill 1652 for increased tree planting and forestry, do they consider policies is pretty simple, but that cannot be said of the inherent and inevitable collateral consequences for assembling the underlying information to see what the wider rural economy to be an integral part of tree targets are achieved. No doubt it is fine in the case of and forestry strategy, meriting at least as much woodland and forestry owned by the Forestry Commission consideration as the planting of the trees themselves? and other institutional owners such as the Woodland Trust, but think of the burden that this imposes on private owners without access to the generous taxpayer Lord Carrington (CB): My Lords, it is a challenge or charitable or institutional funding. Some of the to follow a contribution as knowledgeable as that information required may also be of dubious value. I which we have just heard from the noble Lord, hate to disagree with the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, Lord Inglewood. I declare my interests as set out in but there is a problem in proposed new subsection 3(c) the register, in particular as an owner of both on woodland creation achieved from natural regeneration. ancient and not-so-ancient woodland. I will speak to Where I live, the natural regeneration at present is Amendments 258, 259 and 260, tabled by the noble almost exclusively ash, which is unlikely to survive Baroness,Lady Young of Old Scone.While understanding Chalara. their worthy intention, I oppose them, but I give my full support to Amendment 260A of the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, as will become clear. 9 pm My reasons for opposing Amendments 258, 259 The concentration on maintenance is vital, but it is and 260 are as follows. With regard to Amendment 258, an impossible task without serious action being taken I agree with almost every word that was said by the to control pests, which is why I support Amendment noble Lord, Lord Lucas.There is much misunderstanding 260A. In my part of the Chilterns, a large forestry of the words “ancient woodland”. A great many woods management business is refusing to grow beech again listed as “ancient woodland” are not ancient at all, until the grey squirrel is controlled. At present, beech although they may occupy the site of a wood that once is just squirrel food. This involves tough decisions that met that description. are unlikely to be taken if the public have the same In England, during the first half of the last century, negative attitude to killing deer and squirrels as they many of these woods were clear-felled, principally due do to controlling the badger. Also, where is the money to the exigencies of war. After the Second World War, coming from? The England woodland creation offer many farmers and landowners who were, like others, provides support for 10 years, at which point the desperately short of cash, sold or leased their woods woodland financed risks joining the huge list of to the Forestry Commission, which then planted them undermaintained woodland not currently eligible for according to the norms of the time, which often meant grants. Corsican pine, spruce and similar species, without I am also surprised that Amendment 260 says so sufficient regard for their suitability or the location. little about the importance of newly created commercial Much of that woodland has been felled in its turn, and forestry. I recommend to all those interested the study new trees, often native species, have been planted. by the University of Bangor which has just been All I am saying is that we should be careful about published in Nature. It says, first, that how we envisage ancient woodlands. They are often “research contradicts existing opinion that decarbonisation is anything but ancient and often distinctly commercial, best served by planting native broadleaves or re-wilding”. so placing them on the same level as an SSSI is not Secondly, it says: always appropriate and could be distinctly counter- “Climate change mitigation from harvested stands surpasses productive if they are to be managed commercially. unharvested stands 100 years after planting.” Amendment 259 is much more worthy of support, Thirdly, it says: with its objective of preventing the importation of “Newly planted commercial forest can achieve 269% greater diseases, but I cannot accept a situation where native climate change mitigation than semi-natural alternatives.” broad-leaved trees and shrubs are sourced only from In summary, this report says that productive new UK growers and grown within the UK for their entire planting can deliver significantly more net carbon life. I will give two reasons. First, with our huge benefits than more natural broadleaved systems in the tree-planting ambitions—in particular in urban planting, same period—up to two and half times more in some where more mature trees are required—domestically cases.Certainly,we need both commercial and broadleaved sourced trees are unlikely to be able to fulfil this woods to achieve carbon sequestration, timber yield requirement for many years, as has already been said and, at the same time, biodiversity. by the noble Earl, Lord Devon. Finally, we need to recognise that if we want to Secondly, surely science and gene editing will steadily achieve these massive tree-planting targets, commercial improve the safety of imports? With the effects of woodland, not amenity woodland, is the key. No climate change, we need to look at importing trees doubt there are philanthropic owners who, together grown in more southerly climates, as mentioned by the with farmers and others, will plant trees either in noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard. Obviously, we need existing woodland or in field corners supported by to stringently inspect and test such imports, but please ELMS. But in order to attract serious long-term do not forget that ash dieback was spread by wind, investment, we need a more open approach which not soil. recognises that the profit motive is essential. There will I was hoping to hear from the proposers of be huge demand for timber for the building trade and Amendment 260 who would do all the work, and with the like as we try to limit steel and cement due to their what resources. Setting out the vision, objectives and carbon footprint. An owner of commercial woodland 1653 Environment Bill [LORDS] Environment Bill 1654

[LORD CARRINGTON] a lot of bad things that are brought in—not just can see that, ultimately, the value of his timber will rise viruses or plant diseases but parasites as well. I am substantially. He may not receive a current yield on his sure that many noble Lords know about the Obama investment, but the appreciation will be reflected in worm, Obama nungara, which is a South American the capital value of his woodland or forestry. The species that is very bad for invertebrates that are very same is not the case for amenity woodland. Surely this helpful to horticulture. They came over, there are large is the way forward, in that it ticks all the boxes of numbers in France and we have now found them here. carbon benefits, biodiversity, supply of a product in They have been coming in the soil; they are not great demand and a decent investment. Of course, necessarily visible. I do not know what the answer balance is everything. That is something that is is—perhaps quarantine or something else—but it is underplayed in Amendments 258 to 260, which is why too simplistic, I fear, to say that we must restrict I oppose them. ourselves to British-grown trees, however inviting that might seem. Lord Randall of Uxbridge (Con) [V]: My Lords, it is Finally, I would like to say a few things about very difficult to follow the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, Amendment 260A. I agree entirely about the problem with his expertise and knowledge—much as previous of grey squirrels. My noble friend Lord Blencathra speakers. I share his love of the Chilterns, not only mentioned muntjac, which not only have been a terrible because of the hanging beech woods, where I have curse for my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe’s roses—we often wandered around looking at the orchids, butterflies suffer from that in our own suburban garden here in and other biodiversity,but because,about four generations Uxbridge—but have been devastating the habitat of ago, my family sold furniture that had been made many birds. I think they are attributed to the decline from the beech in those Chiltern woods. of the nightingale, certainly in Norfolk and elsewhere, I speak, first, to Amendment 258. I was initially because they are eating that habitat. attracted to this because, as we have heard, the importance I have a solution, possibly for the grey squirrels and of ancient woodland is well understood. I was fascinated the muntjac—and that other invasive species we are not to hear the epiphany of the noble and learned Lord, talking about because it has nothing to do with trees, Lord Hope of Craighead, following his excellent which is the signal crayfish—and that is that they are chairmanship of the HS2 committee—I am glad that all excellent to eat. If we could just get the muntjac and something good has come out of HS2 for once—which grey squirrel shot, but not with lead, we could probably was almost matched by the Damascene conversion of do a good service. Muntjac is particularly tasty. the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, in his previous incarnation I think it was the noble and learned Lord, Lord as a purveyor of peat. However, to me, this is about Hope of Craighead, who talked about plastic tree protection; whether it is a SSSI or ancient woodland, guards. There are now surveys looking at jute and this is about whether we can protect them adequately. wool tree guards, which may be the answer to that. As they say on news programmes, “While we’ve Certainly, there is a problem. Some people will say been on air,” though I think it was probably earlier that too many deer is a reason to introduce lynx—I am today, I have discovered that 553 acres of privately not sure whether that would be very popular in Sussex, owned woodland—I do not know if it is ancient or elsewhere, but I have a great deal of sympathy with woodland—is going to be taken, it is reported, by Amendment 260A. I am very interested to hear what Center Parcs to open a new site. This area is, I think, a the Minister has to say, and I will not detain the SSSI; it has Schedule 1 breeding birds such as honey Committee any longer. buzzard, goshawk, firecrest, hobby and crossbill nesting there, as well as threatened species such as redstart, The Earl of Caithness (Con): My Lords, I have added nightjar and lesser spotted woodpecker. I do not know my name to three amendments: Amendments 259 how protected this will be—we heard in the previous and 260 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady debate from the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, about Young of Old Scone, and Amendment 260A, in the Swanscombe peninsula and the threats there. If the name of the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull. I have listened designation means protection, that is obviously a good carefully to this very interesting debate. thing, but if it is just another designation that does not The noble Lord, Lord Carrington, put his finger on help, is it necessary? I have listened to the other it when he talked about the need for commercial arguments and I am not sure whether this is necessary. forestry in this country. I have spoken a lot in the past Normally, when it comes to woodland issues, the about forestry. We are not good foresters in this noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, has a lot country—we have the ideal climate for growing trees, going for her, so I am tempted by her amendment. and we do grow trees, but we are not good foresters, I move on to Amendment 259. Again, we have and that is why our timber is in the bad condition that talked a lot about biosecurity. The idea that this it is. In Amendment 260, the noble Baroness, Lady should be British trees initially appeals. However, the Young of Old Scone, proposes that the Government arguments about climate change and the amount of introduce a tree strategy. That will be hugely important capacity that we have with British growers—as the because whenever we have mentioned trees recently noble Earl, Lord Devon, and others mentioned—are my noble friend Lord Goldsmith has said, “Well, there also compelling. The problem is not so much that they is plenty of room beside riverbanks and stream-banks are being imported and grown elsewhere but in the and unfarmed bits of land.” Yes, there is, but those are actual word “biosecurity”; it is about what they may amenity trees and nothing to do with commercial bring with them. One thing that is a problem is whether woodland. We are the number two world importer of we have enough inspections for such things. There are timber, which is a very bad statistic for the UK to have. 1655 Environment Bill [12 JULY 2021] Environment Bill 1656

The problem with the idea of the noble Lord, Lord The answer is that, if timber is uncommercial to Carrington, for commercial woodland was rightly exposed grow, you cannot put up fences, which are too expensive, by the noble Earl, Lord Devon, who said that commercial so you have to rely on plastic tubes. I foresee that, in woodland is unprofitable: nobody is growing hardwood 10 years’ time, we will have a pretty good desert of timber commercially any more. You cannot, because empty plastic tubes,because they will not work. Hopefully, of pests and diseases. That is why Amendment 260A is we will get to a less polluting material than plastic, but so important, as is Amendment 259, which deals with I fear I am very negative about the future of forestry in biodiversity. this country under the present arrangements the The noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, Government have in hand. said that there are pests and diseases for every native The noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, is hardwood. If that is the case, and the Government’s absolutely right in her Amendment 260 that there strategy is what it is, commercial hardwoods have seen needs to be a plan for the maintenance of trees and their day in this country. That is a terrible thing to woodlands. It is no good having a target just for have to say but, sadly, it is the truth. Not only do we planting trees—you can tick that box very easily; it is, need a tree strategy; for that we need a land strategy, as I have said before, maintaining trees and bringing because 20% of agricultural land will come out of them to maturity that will benefit our country.However, production to go into forestry and biodiversity. Where as we know, the ages of 15 to 40 are the time when the is it going to happen? We do not know; this is all a bit abundance of grey squirrels will attack and destroy pie in the sky from the Government. most of our native hardwoods. The Government really 9.15 pm need to get their act together if they are going to fulfil The amendment of the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, their hopes for forestry in this country. adds a duty to set animal damage protection. That is hugely important, and there have been a number of I turn finally to Amendment 283. Here, after six important comments on it. My noble friend Lord Lucas days of agreement, I part company with a lot of my told us of the case in Dorset where the RSPB fenced noble friends, and noble friends opposite, including off a bit of woodland to keep the fallow deer out. That the noble Lord, Lord Teverson. This is a hugely complex is a hugely irresponsible act of management, because and emotional subject. We can all agree that nobody all it does is push elsewhere the problem of excess deer wants to burn peat and everybody wants to keep it as in this country. It does not deal with it. My noble wet as possible; the science is incomplete and in many friend Lord Colgrain talked about the increasing numbers cases contradictory. There is a lot more work needed of car accidents due to deer and the noble and learned to get the science right. Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, talked about how If the point of this amendment is to stop flooding, I trees and long grasses change biodiversity. All those simply say that a saturated peat bog does nothing to are very relevant points. stop it at all. I could take your Lordships up to I will talk a bit more about damage to trees. I am Caithness and Sutherland, to the Flow Country, and very glad that Defra has not lost its sense of humour; I when that bog is wet, the water just runs off it. It does was extremely grateful to receive the other day from not stop flooding in any way. The peat bog will have to my noble friend the “Environment Bill nature and be managed to keep the bog just below the water table, biodiversity factsheets”, on the front of which is a so that when there is extra rain, it is the sponge that picture of three doe-eyed deer. They are eating the can absorb it. But if it already fully saturated, it is of woodland in which they have been photographed. My no great benefit to anybody. compliments to Defra on its sense of humour. If the purpose of the amendment is to tackle I was recently in Dorset looking at some land on greenhouse gases, it is possibly true that there is some which I noticed a lot of self-sown trees last year. Every carbon emitted in a controlled burn, but nothing to single leader of those trees has been eaten by deer this that which is emitted in wildfires. One has only to look spring. Not one single tree that was self-generated will at the fire in the Flow Country that I mentioned at our be able to grow into anything like a normal tree. Not debate in March on the burning regulations, which only is the eating of leaders detrimental; there is also doubled Scotland’s CO output. At Saddleworth Moor, the rubbing and marking of trees by deer, particularly 2 they lost 200 years of stored carbon, according to the when cleaning their antlers and marking their territory. University of Liverpool, because that was unmanaged. I think my noble friends Lord Blencathra and The owners of Saddleworth Moor had turned their Lord Randall of Uxbridge mentioned the muntjac. back on sensible management of heather and peatland, Let us not forget that the muntjac can produce three let it grow too long, and the inevitable happened. fawns in two years. It is estimated that, if we want to control the present muntjac population as it is, the cull Why do those who tabled this amendment want to must be at 30% a year. Is that remotely likely? Does go completely the opposite way when the science in that have any support from the Government? Australia and America, and all the rest of the world, is As our development presses out more and more telling us that controlled burning helps biodiversity into the countryside, it is getting harder and harder for and helps stop wildfires? Is the point of the amendment people to control deer. Those who do will only find to make us have more biodiversity? If only we could that their next-door neighbour is producing an oasis communicate with the golden plover, the curlew and or refuge for deer, and more and more will come on to the hen harrier, they would all tell us: no, it does not. their land and undo any good being done. We also Weneed a managed moorland to thrive. All the evidence have the question of rabbits and, as the noble and shows that curlews are greater in numbers on a managed learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, said, hares. grouse moor than they are on unmanaged heather. 1657 Environment Bill [LORDS] Environment Bill 1658

[THE EARL OF CAITHNESS] colleagues, and we look forward to a continued dialogue Heather is one of our great resources but it is declining, regarding both our domestic and international forestry and we need to keep it going. One of the best ways of activities. doing so is to burn it on a rotational basis. This country needs a tree strategy; trees are not a We must define peatland, as there are something problem to be solved, but a core part of our heritage like 25 different categories of peat. It depends on the and our future. Our aspiration is that a tree strategy amount of organic mixture in the soil; some use 35% will help us to plant the right species of trees in the organic, some use 30%—the Americans—and I think right places. As the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, has it is Cranfield which uses 20%. So we do not know reminded us, it is not simply a matter of increasing out what we are talking about—a lot more work needs to total forest cover. Planting trees on high-quality arable be done. land, or where a large number of visitors come to I am very much against this amendment. We are all enjoy open vistas, simply to meet a target would be heading in the same direction; the debate is about how retrograde. However, as well as adding to the total we get there. I believe that we must leave every option number of trees, planting them where they can assist open, and allow controlled burning which, if done with managing water levels, prevent flooding or help properly, should not touch the mosses or the peat. It is maintain soil richness, will have a huge positive impact. only the nitrogenous foliage above the peat which gets To save your Lordships’ time, I have not requested burned, and you are left with what is known as biochar to speak at this stage in support of the later group of on the stalks. Although biochar has been totally ignored amendments that focus on indigenous communities in all previous research, it has increasingly been shown and forestry products imported from overseas. However, that it is a hugely important source for not only I endorse them strongly, and I can assure noble Lords retaining but absorbing carbon. that these are matters that the Church Commissioners take into full account with regard to our own overseas The scientists disagree. They were all pretty well in assets. Indeed, we are already proactively engaging agreement until fairly recently, but recent evidence with Governments around the world to look at the shows that, in the past, scientists were wrong. I hope good stewardship of our global natural assets and my noble friend on the Front Bench will turn down protect the rights of indigenous communities. this amendment and say that first, we need to do far more research and secondly, we must not do this until we get the definitions right in the first place. The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Fookes) (Con): The noble Earl, Lord Shrewsbury, has withdrawn, so the next speaker is the noble Lord, The Lord Bishop of Manchester [V]: My Lords, it is Lord Framlingham. a particular pleasure to speak in the same debate as the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries of Lord Framlingham (Con) [V]: My Lords, I would Pentregarth, from whose wisdom, when I was a very like to speak to Amendments 258, 259 and 260, and I young bishop some 20 years ago, I learned a great declare my non-pecuniary interests. I was, many years deal. I also an honour to follow the noble Earl, Lord ago, president of the Arboricultural Association, and Caithness, who has reminded us, powerfully, of the I am currently an honorary fellow. What a terrific crucial role that commercial forestry and good moorland debate this has been so far,with thoughtful, knowledgeable management should be enabled to play. Hence, I draw and concerned contributions. There have been 23 Back your Lordships’ attention to my interests as set out in Bench speakers, and I am number 23, so I am sure you the register, specifically my deputy chairmanship of will appreciate that I do not have a huge canvas the Church Commissioners, which the noble and right unworked to paint. reverend Lord famously once took to court. We are On Amendment 258, ancient woodlands are so one of the foremost owners of sustainable commercial precious. Their value and what they contribute to our forestry in the UK and beyond. environment and enjoyment have been so well explained I speak, tonight, in support of Amendment 260. I that I need not dwell on it again. I simply remind us all also believe that Amendments 258, 259 and 283 are of two things. First, they can be seen as a touchstone—a worthy of further consideration, but note the arguments bellwether for how much we really value them and, by of noble Lords who believe more work needs to be association, our environment. Secondly, we should be done to get the balance right. On Amendment 260, we judged by how seriously we take steps to protect them will not achieve the recovery in levels of forestation from damage and destruction by developments of all that our country needs unless we have clear national kinds. The biggest culprit by far at the moment is HS2, targets, broken down into detail, as set out here. which I have spoken about before. There are 108 sites Moreover, a tree strategy will set those targets in the endangered by this project, 32 of them in phase 1. The context of a wider narrative and allow major landowners, photographs of the destruction already done are heart- such as the Church Commissioners for England, to breaking. We must surely do better. best play our part in its delivery. As a glance at the Hansard from another place will confirm to noble 9.30 pm Lords, my colleague the Second Church Estates I will speak briefly to Amendment 259. Post Brexit, Commissioner, Andrew Selous MP, regularly responds we are in the enviable position of being able to determine there to Members’ questions about the work of the our own plant import regulations. We must ensure commissioners on forestry, tree and land management that they are as tight as possible to keep out the many best practice among our many tenants. Commissioners diseases present in Europe and other parts of the world, have also met regularly with the Minister and his which would have a devastating effect on our trees 1659 Environment Bill [12 JULY 2021] Environment Bill 1660 were they to get in. A fungal disease of planes, known an issue of any kind, from what trees to plant where, as plane wilt, that is present in France and the bacterial from crown reduction to felling, from cabling to cavity disease of olives, Xylella, which started in Italy, are treatment, from diagnosing honey fungus to deciding just two of the many diseases that would wreak havoc whether your tree is responsible for the subsidence to were they to establish themselves here. your home, the person you will call will be an Noble Lords have already dealt with many of the arboriculturist. Local government tree officers know other diseases. It is important to remember that the their areas. They know what to plant and how to oak processionary moth, so damaging to our oak trees ensure they thrive. All this expertise is needed in and now present in all parts of the country, was not planning our tree strategy. long ago conveniently distributed there by a consignment In his response to this debate, will the Minister of oak trees from Holland, saving the pests the trouble—a confirm that he and his department are aware of woeful breach of security. We must do all we can to the importance of arboriculturists, particularly the protect our trees and raise public awareness of the Arboricultural Association and the experience it can danger from any kind of plant material. bring to the table? Will he include it in the consultation and the implementation of the tree strategy? I completely agree with Amendment 260 on the tree strategy. As we embark on the greatest tree-planting programme of our time, it is essential that we get it Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD): right so that a golden opportunity is not squandered, My Lords, this varied group had attracted some either in money or the time it takes to establish trees. 25 speakers, but some have withdrawn due to the We must be aware of how the scheme is to be delivered timing. The main debate has been about trees, not and how it will be overseen. It is important to know some of the other amendments. which professional disciplines will play a role in advising The noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, set out extremely government and monitoring progress. well the reasons for Amendments 257E and 257F and the dramatic effect that the guidance that the Secretary The Government should have the best possible of State provides could have on the local authorities. It advice available. If you are planning a housebuilding is therefore not only advisable but imperative that project, you consult builders, architects and planners. local authorities are consulted on the likely impact on For a medical programme, you would talk to doctors their activities and service delivery. We have all heard and nurses, while any educational change would involve of the outrage in Sheffield over the felling of trees schoolteachers and universities. Who do we consult on without consultation. Local authorities need the power a tree strategy? For forestry—growing trees for timber to act to prevent the spread of disease in trees, but or silviculture—and planting trees out in the countryside, local people should be consulted and understand the it is the Forestry Commission, with its wealth of reasons for local authority actions. experience over many years. For urban trees in our cities, towns and villages, it must be those dedicated to The noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, and responsible for looking after trees for their amenity introduced Amendment 258 on the protection of ancient value: arboriculturists. Urban trees are every bit as woodland, Amendment 259 on introducing biodiversity important as trees in the countryside, not only for the standards when planting trees, and Amendment 260 good they do in improving air quality and absorbing on the duty to prepare a tree strategy for England. She is extremely knowledgeable on the subject of woodlands CO2, but for the pleasure and peace they bring every day to millions of people by their very presence in our and trees, and we support her amendments. Other increasingly stark urban landscape. Patients get better Peers also spoke in favour of these three amendments faster in wards with a view of trees than those without. to protect and expand the planting of trees. We support placing ancient woodland on the same basis as SSSIs, Whenever you look out of the window in this but on an individual basis.Some 1,200 ancient woodlands country, you can almost always see a tree. Who do are on the at-risk register and in need of protection, so your Lordships suppose looks after them, from the something has to be done. wonderful planes on Victoria Embankment to the Importing trees runs the risk of introducing pests trees in your garden? The answer is tree consultants, and diseases into our already depleted woodlands. tree surgeons and local government tree officers, all of Growing our own trees has been discussed previously them arboriculturists. Their parent body is the during the round of statutory instruments introduced Arboricultural Association, a large, well-organised and to assist our passage from the EU. Growing our own is very successful organisation. It runs training schemes one way to limit the damage from pests. The noble in all aspects of arboriculture, confers qualifications, Lord, Lord Blencathra, has supported this. produces a directory of qualified people—from tree The noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, introduced surgeons to consultants—and monitors standards in Amendment 260A on the risks that deer and grey the industry. It holds regular training and educational squirrels present to newly planted and already established seminars, and a hugely successful annual conference trees.The majority of speakers supported the amendment. with international speakers. It regularly produces a Grey squirrels in particular are typical of a non-native journal which contains the latest scientific developments invasive species that has been imported from abroad, in tree planting, diseases and tree management, again and they have decimated our own red squirrel population with contributions from leading specialists around the almost to the point of extinction. Red squirrels are world. beginning to make a comeback in selected protected In short, if you have a problem with your trees of environments—the Isle of Wight and Brownsea Island any kind, including this big planting programme, are two such—but there is a long way to go for them to arboriculturists are the people to consult. If you have reach the numbers seen in previous decades. 1661 Environment Bill [LORDS] Environment Bill 1662

[BARONESS BAKEWELL OF HARDINGTON MANDEVILLE] Peatland restoration is taking place in a variety of Deforestation has decreased overall tree cover over types of peatland. Restoration on the levels referred to the decades to an appallingly low level of 13%. The by my noble friend Lord Teverson is very impressive: damage caused by grey squirrels is enormous. The UK it has created new habitats and restored the water Squirrel Accord is working to tackle the problem, but levels. On the next moor, however, peat is still being the motorway and railway agencies are not complying. extracted. I look forward to the Minister’s response to Could the Minister encourage them to comply? Unless the many and varied arguments put forward in this a robust standard is set for the protection of newly very long debate. planted trees from animal damage, I fear the Government are not likely to see many of the trees they plants Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab): My Lords, I reach maturity. am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, for The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, has lost 60% of his moving his amendments, which now seems quite a replanted ancient woodland to grey squirrel damage, long time ago. But I am sure he has listened with and my noble friend Lord Teverson has championed interest to the rest of the debate. biodiversity, the protection of trees and increased I am speaking in support of the amendments in the planting. Only 7% of our landscape is covered with name of my noble friend Lady Youngof Old Scone, to trees, and only 2% is ancient woodland. A tree strategy which I have added my name, and to my Amendment 283 and action plan to protect and invest in trees, based on on the prohibition on burning peat. I am grateful to science, is essential. the noble Baronesses, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb Amendment 283, in the names of the noble Baronesses, and Lady Bennett, and the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, for adding their names. and Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, and my noble My noble friend Lady Young has made an excellent friend Lord Teverson would ban the rotational burning case for the need for a tree strategy to be included in of vegetation on upland peat moors. I have listened to the Bill. It is interesting that the only mention of trees the arguments that this will protect the peat, but I am in the Bill is about felling rather than planting trees. not convinced. In March, we debated the effect of Obviously, the Government’s announcement of the wildfires on peat moors, as the noble Duke, the Duke England tree action plan is welcome, as is the commitment of Wellington, reminded us. There are frequent wildfires to treble woodland creation rates to meet a target of on Bodmin, Dartmoor and Exmoor peat moors. Some planting 30,000 hectares per year by the end of this are accidental; some are set deliberately. Wildfires are Parliament. But I echo my noble friend’s concern that not confined to the West Country; the upland moors the plan lacks the clarity and targets needed to ensure also suffer from them. an effective implementation. As noble Lords will be all too aware, government targets for tree planting have The managed burning of a heather moor is carried come and gone before and, at last count, we were still out under controlled conditions and by a patch at a way behind the Government’s earlier target to plant time. It is a cool burn, and the underlying peat does 11 million trees. not ignite. This is not the case with wildfires, which can rage out of control for days, with the underlying 9.45 pm peat catching fire and spreading underground over significant distances, causing considerable damage. In his letter to us of 10 June, the Minister said that, following Managed burning is better than out-of-control “the policy paper … published in August 2020, the Government is wildfires—a view supported by the noble Earl, Lord exploring whether a statutory target for trees … would be appropriate.” Devon. The Government have trailed their peat strategy, That was a year ago, so can the Minister clarify the which is due to be published this year. However, it is a result of that consideration? Does he now agree with long time coming. I would rather see amendments to my noble friend that the time has now come to enact the way we produce and use our peat, both commercially such a target in this Bill? and on uplands, dealt with under this strategy and not piecemeal, as with this amendment. The Minister’s letter also says: “The Government plans to consult on a long-term tree target Peat takes hundreds of years to form but can be … in early 2022”. depleted very quickly. My husband recently went to But as we discussed in earlier sections of the Bill, our the local garden centre to buy compost. He asked the experience so far has been that these consultations owner which were the peat-free bags—there was only tend to have an organisational drift: targets come and one variety. He stood next to a woman who was go, and other work priorities take precedence. We instructing her husband to buy several bags of compost think there is urgency for this work, and I hope that with the words, “Make sure it has a very high peat the Minister will be able to update us on the work that content”. is planned and the timetables involved. The message about the finite quantity of peat is not Meanwhile, there is increasing urgency to increase getting through. Can the Minister say when the peat planting levels, as the Committee on Climate Change strategy for the country will be published? It will affect has made it clear that across the UK, tree planting has not only the upland peat bogs but the lowland peat consistently fallen below what is needed to achieve net moors, which are currently being exploited under licence zero by 2050. This is why we agree with the Woodland for the benefit of the English country garden. I urge Trust and others that we need to put the production of the Minister to consider Amendment 283, along with a tree strategy, with targets and interim targets, on the the peat strategy, when that eventually appears. face of the Bill. 1663 Environment Bill [12 JULY 2021] Environment Bill 1664

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, that It is impossible to overstate the importance of the we need both commercial forestry and conservation restoration of our peat bogs to reaching our climate woodlands to be included. As he says, balance is change targets. Through well-managed peat bogs we everything, but we would expect all those issues to be have the capacity to store 3.2 billion tonnes of carbon, covered by a tree strategy. I agree with the right but this natural resource has been eroded by habitat reverend Prelate the Bishop of Manchester that it is encroachment, by the excavation of peat for horticulture important that planting is done sensitively to ensure and, most damagingly,by the burning of peat vegetation. that the right tree is planted in the right place. I agree The Climate Change Committee said last year that with the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, that we need more information about what the best conditions are to “the practice should be banned across the UK with immediate effect.” create natural tree regeneration, because our experience has been mixed in this. I also agree with the noble I assure the noble Duke, the Duke of Wellington, that Baroness, Lady Boycott, that we still have a lot to the committee’s recommendation is based on the best learn about how trees communicate with and nurture and most up-to-date scientific evidence. Indeed, if you each other. read its report, it is constantly referenced with these It is also important that smaller woodlands are citations. We agree that this is a complex issue but encouraged and ancient woodlands are protected, as ultimately that does not alter its recommendations. well as schemes to ensure that trees are properly The Adaptation Committee of the Climate Change conserved for the longer term. This is why we welcome Committee in its report last month also picked up on the proposal that ancient woodlands should be dealt this issue and stressed again that the Government with on the same basis as SSSIs, although I understand must rewet 100% of upland peat moors urgently. In the concerns that noble Lords have raised that it could answer to the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, that is be a lengthy and complex process. What we are looking what our amendment seeks to achieve: not just the for is a simplified model of that protection. banning of burning but to ensure that all the upland I agree with the point from the noble and learned peat land is rewetted to deep bog status. This is what Lord, Lord Hope, that some woodlands are too small our amendment seeks to do. I hope the Minister now to be designated as SSSIs, so we need an approach that accepts that it is necessary to take more radical action can encompass all that. I also agree with the noble on this issue than he has been prepared to take in the Lord, Lord Randall, that SSSIs only have any use to past, and I hope he will therefore feel able to support us if they provide real protection for the trees and the our amendment. Perhaps he can also update us on the diversity that they are meant to be protecting. banning of the sale of horticultural peat, which a number of noble Lords raised. The Government’s recent announcement emphasises the need for diverse woodlands with a focus on native I will comment briefly on the other amendments in broad-leaf trees and the need to improve our domestic this group. The new clause to protect street trees from tree production with high levels of biosecurity. We unnecessary felling is welcome, as is the emphasis on welcome this approach. My noble friend Lady Young consulting communities. The sad fact is that local of Old Scone made a case for urgent action to ensure highways authorities have not always taken their that domestic nurseries provide saplings grown to a environmental obligations on this sufficiently seriously. disease-free standard. Many noble Lords have spoken, I have some sympathy with Amendment 257E in the quite rightly, about their concerns about the progress name of the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, on the need of new diseases and new pests and the heartbreak to consult local authorities before issuing guidance, caused when woodlands had to be felled as a result. and I hope that that would be standard practice. I am slightly more sceptical about the noble Lord’s second Like the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, I fondly remember amendment allowing local highways authorities to set the sterling work of the noble Lord, Lord Gardiner, to further local exemptions.The Bill already gives exemptions battle on this front. He did an enormous amount of if a tree is, for example, dead, dangerous or diseased, working in this area, but it did feel that at times that he so giving further exemption powers would seem to was on the losing side, despite all his efforts. These negate the wider obligation to consult. issues are spelled out in my noble friend’s amendments, so I hope that the Minister will feel able to support Finally, I agree with the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, these amendments. that newly planted trees need to be protected from damage by animals by the application of a standard. My Amendment 283 would prohibit the burning He made the important point that we need to use of peat in all upland areas. This follows on from the the best science to tackle issues such as reducing inadequate actions of the Government earlier this year grey squirrel numbers, working collectively through to ban peat burning only in sites of special scientific organisations such as the UK Squirrel Accord. Based interest—which Wildlife and Countryside Link calculated on the wise words of the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, equates only to a maximum of 30% of the total we await the result of the squirrel fertility control upland peat. The Government’s SI also included a experiment with some interest. number of exemptions which mean that large swathes of upland bog burning will take place much as before. I agree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, The England Peat Action Plan, published in May, says that saplings should not be protected from animal simply that these regulations will be kept “under review”. damage by the widely used plastic guards—which This is just not good enough. As the noble Lord Teverson, eventually fall off and litter the environment—when said, our peatlands are the jewels of the countryside. alternative, nature-friendly guards are available. 1665 Environment Bill [LORDS] Environment Bill 1666

[BARONESS JONES OF WHITCHURCH] will consult on the protections that these critical woodlands We have had a wide-ranging debate, and it is a late are afforded in the planning system. I also confirm hour.I hope the Minister is persuaded by these arguments that our upcoming planning reforms will not weaken and will be prepared to take some of them forward. I our strong protections for trees but rather enhance therefore look forward to hearing his response. them, with many more trees planted as well. As such, I reassure the noble Baroness that we are taking significant Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con): My Lords, steps to protect and restore ancient woodlands. That I thank all noble Lords for their contributions on this said, I will look closely at her proposal. As she said, important topic. The best time to plant a tree was, of ancient woodlands are irreplaceable and need our course, years ago; the second-best time is now, so I am maximum protection. glad that we have committed to doing so at scale. The Turning to the noble Baroness’s Amendment 259, Government committed in May through our new England I also assure her of our commitment to increasing Trees Action Plan to action in this Parliament to UK biosecurity. I know that I do not need to lecture support unprecedented levels of tree planting to deliver your Lordships’ House about the devastating impact the many benefits that trees can provide. The action of ash dieback or Dutch elm disease, or the importance plan was widely and warmly welcomed by NGOs, of vigilance against other threatening diseases. conservation groups and stakeholders. This Bill includes The Government already support the plant health measures which will update our tree protection laws, management standard and certification scheme, which including by increasing fines and attaching restocking is an independent, industry-backed biosecurity standard orders to land rather than landowners, who could sell available to all market sectors and it covers international their land without restocking trees. supply chains. I want to start by addressing Amendment 260. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Young, for championing 10 pm trees through her support for the Woodland Trust. I The existing plant health regime already implements have enjoyed talking to her on many occasions about a range of measures that address and minimise biosecurity this issue in recent months. I share her ambition to see risks. I am advised that this amendment would be in more trees planted and our existing woodlands protected. breach of WTO rules governing international trade. It has been positive to see such support from charities However, I have asked for more information on this. and the public for our plans and ambitions, as these As a number of noble Lords have said, the risk is real ambitions can be delivered only with the support of and terrible, and we must use every available lever to the country. protect our trees. Bureaucracy certainly should not That is why the Government committed to at least become an obstacle to doing that. We are taking steps trebling tree-planting rates in England over this Parliament to support our own nurseries with a view to reducing and to consulting on a new long-term tree target our dependence on imported saplings, and again I under the Environment Bill. We have committed in hope that we will be able to go further, in the interests this Bill to producing regular statutory environmental of guarding against future tree diseases. improvement plans, beginning with our 25-year I thank the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, for his environment plan. This will regularly update our natural Amendment 260A. Woodlands created using public environment policies, including for trees. Therefore, funding must conform to the UK forestry standard for we do not need another separate, individual strategy woodland creation and management plans. Such plans for trees; we have a strategy for trees. include steps to reduce grazing from browsing mammals, Amendment 258 proposes an amendment to the including through active management, barrier protection Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981, introducing an and the development and monitoring of deer management additional differentiation between sites of special scientific plans. We recently announced in the England Trees interest and ancient woodland. Ancient woodlands Action Plan a number of actions to go further to established before 1600 are some of our most precious protect our woodlands from browsing animals such as habitats and many are already designated under the deer and grey squirrels. SSSI series. The definition of ancient woodland is also We are also working with the UK Squirrel Accord already clearly established in the Forestry Commission to support the ongoing research into grey squirrel and Natural England standing advice. However, we management; for example—and I am nervous saying need to update the ancient woodlands inventory to this given the comments of my noble friend Lord map where they are and we are doing so, as the noble Blencathra—looking into fertility control for grey squirrels. Baroness knows, alongside the Woodland Trust. The aim is to produce an immuno-contraceptive that Our England Trees Action Plan includes new steps can be taken orally by grey squirrels through a species- to protect and restore ancient woodlands through specific delivery mechanism. I understand that a number management and restoration. Our new England woodland of noble Lords have contributed financially to that creation offer will fund landowners to buffer and work. It matters that we exhaust that option, not expandancientwoodlandsitesbyplantingnativebroadleaf because it is the only option but because the main woodland. We will update the keepers of time policy alternative—a cull of some sort—is not something on management of ancient woodland, veteran trees that everyone will buy into. It only takes a few areas to and other semi-natural woodlands, and we are also not take part for the population to continue growing, expanding the ancient woodland inventory to better so we will need to use every string in every bow. map those ancient woodlands.The action plan announced We will also open a new competitive grant scheme our intention to establish a new category of long- to help land managers improve the ecological condition established woodland, in situ since 1840. The Government of their woodlands, including sites of special scientific 1667 Environment Bill [12 JULY 2021] Environment Bill 1668 interest and ancient and long-established woodlands, but they also specify limited purposes for which a a new category.Therefore, although welcome in intention, licence to burn may be granted, where landowners proposed new Clause 108 is unnecessary. We do not need to manage the risk of wildfire. For example, need new legislation to ensure that newly planted trees those exemptions would no longer be possible under are protected from browsing animals. the noble Baroness’s amendment, and we are therefore I turn to Amendments 257E and 257F in the name unable to support it. of the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake. Local authorities However, I reassure the noble Baroness that I share and their tree officers play a critical role in managing her intention to protect these vital ecosystems. The and protecting valuable street trees. We have launched new regulations will protect approximately 140,000 a local authority treescapes fund to help them plant hectares of England’s upland deep peat from further more trees and to regenerate more publicly owned damage from managed burning—this represents 90% areas in local communities, as well as other changes to of our SSSI-designated blanket bog habitat and 40% regulations and guidance to see more trees planted of our upland deep peat. and protected. The duty to consult was developed Finally, on the issue of the use of peat in horticulture, following a consultation and discussions with stakeholders which has also been raised by a number of noble on how we can better protect trees in England. The Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, we duty as proposed was considered the most proportionate have always been clear about the need to end the use of approach. Guidance on delivery of the duty is being peat in horticultural products. We want the transition drafted with input from local authority tree officers, to be as seamless as possible for the sector, but, in the experts who will carry out this duty on our behalf. truth, our voluntary approach has not succeeded. In We will consult further before publishing guidance, the England Peat Action Plan, we have committed to but we do not need legislation to make that happen. publishing this year the full consultation on banning the sale of peat and peat-containing products in the Regarding the noble Lord’s Amendment 257F, the amateur sector by the end of this Parliament. exemptions to the duty have been carefully selected to allow local highways authorities to deal with trees The Government share the commitment of all those which cause immediate issues,such as by posing immediate who spoke on the need to protect our trees and valuable danger. Providing highways authorities with powers to peatlands. I hope that I have been able to reassure create further exemptions would undermine the purpose noble Lords on their points and that they feel able not and existence of the duty, as they could then create to press their amendments. exemptions that were not in the spirit of the legislation. The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness This amendment could therefore undermine protection Barker) (LD): I have received requests to speak after for trees and lead to further unpopular and unnecessary the Minister from two noble Lords. First, I call the felling of valuable street trees. noble Lord, Lord Marlesford. I agree with those noble Lords who spoke about the importance of trees as carbon sinks. However, just as Lord Marlesford (Con) [V]: My Lords, we have important for carbon storage are our peatlands, and I rightly heard much about the importance of protecting thank the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, ancient woodland in Britain for global reasons. Is it for raising this via Amendment 283. The Government not as important, and perhaps more urgent, to halt have invested over £8 million in peatland restoration and prevent the loss of tropical rainforests, such as the this year. We recently launched our four-year nature Amazon? Has my noble friend considered the proposals for climate peatland grant scheme, a new competitive that I made at Second Reading for the relief of national capital grant scheme for peat restoration, and we debt, both interest and capital repayment, equal to a intend to invest over £50 million in peatland restoration multiple—possibly a high multiple—of the commercial by 2025. We have also committed to exploring the value of the rainforest that we want to protect? Only if environmental and economic case for extending peat the rainforest were interfered with would the debt be protections further still, in the England Peat Action reinstated. Plan that was published in May. The Government are working to comprehensively map England’s peatlands Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con): I thank by 2024, to inform this position. the noble Lord for his intervention. We will talk a bit about similar issues in the next debate on due diligence, I heard the argument put forward by my noble but it is certainly the case that, if we want forested friend Lord Caithness about the flood-prevention qualities countries to protect what they have, implement the of peatlands. He declared with great confidence that laws that are in place and help us to turn the tide on the value is not there, but I respectfully say to him that deforestation, there will need to be an incentive. In the science is absolutely clear that healthy peatlands some part, that means financial transfer from other prevent the flow of surface water and increase the countries.The UK is leading efforts, with the development land’s ability to absorb and hold water. The impact in of a new programme called LEAF, which has already terms of reduced flood risk is measurable and significant. raised in excess of a £1 billion, in theory at least. We Wehave also committed to exploring the environmental hope to continue to attract partners from the private and economic case for extending those peat protections sector and Governments, with a view to working with further. The Government are committed to protecting the main forested nations to protect the forest that deep peat habitats through the Heather and Grass etc. they have. This is just one of many initiatives; we are Burning (England) Regulations 2021, which a number working on a number of initiatives between now and of noble Lords mentioned. These regulations prohibit COP, with a view to making a meaningful intervention, burning on blanket bog in our most protected sites, we hope, at that event. 1669 Environment Bill [LORDS] Environment Bill 1670

Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab) [V]: My Lords, The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness I am conscious of the hour. I thank the Minister for Barker) (LD): We now come to the group beginning the initiatives that he spoke of on ancient woodland with Amendment 260B. Anyone who wishes to press but ask that, when he continues to look at ancient this or anything else in this group to a Division must woodland protection, he also raises the effectiveness make that clear in the debate. of the implementation of the current planning guidance with the MHCLG, because it is clear that, if we have 1,200 cases of ancient woodlands at risk, the Clause 109: Use of forest risk commodities in implementation simply cannot be working. I would be commercial activity grateful if he would agree to raise that with the MHCLG and, while he is there, he could ask them about the Amendment 260B planning reforms and get some guarantee that they will not reduce the level of protection for ancient Moved by Lord Randall of Uxbridge woodland below the current NPPF and, preferably, 260B: Clause 109, page 108, line 37, at end insert— improve it. “(ba) paragraph 3;” Member’s explanatory statement Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con): My Lords, This amendment would change the parliamentary procedure I have had commitments from the MHCLG that our for making regulations to specify requirements for the due diligence protections for trees will be improved and enhanced, system to the affirmative procedure. and will not move backwards, but I will continue to press home that case. I am seeing the Secretary of State in a matter of days to talk about this and a Lord Randall of Uxbridge (Con) [V]: My Lords, I number of other issues, and I will raise the points that speak principally to my Amendments 260B, 260C, the noble Baroness raised in her speech today. 265B and 265C. Bearing in mind the hour, I will try to make this brief, but they are on important issues. The Earl of Kinnoull (CB) [V]: I am also sorry to In the 25-year environment plan, the UK Government delay matters. I thank the Minister for his response, articulated an ambitious set of goals and actions for but I am afraid he did not address my point about the UK, including the commitment that refuges and safe areas caused by governmental bodies “our consumption and impact on natural capital are sustainable, not controlling the problems of squirrels and deer. at home and overseas.” They were listed in subsection (3) of my proposed new I believe that the Environment Bill should reflect this clause. To save time, I wonder whether he might add to commitment but, sadly, I do not think it adequately his lengthy list of things a meeting to discuss that, does. The goals and actions must be strengthened to because it is a very serious area. If we do not address tackle the growing problems caused by deforestation that problem successfully, as I and many others pointed and drive action to significantly reduce our global out, we will not be allowed to do the forestation footprint. we need. Due diligence legislation is only part of the comprehensive approach that will be needed to deliver Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con): I am very deforestation-free supply chains and significantly reduce happy to meet and will be in touch. global footprint impacts more broadly. A mandatory due diligence framework should formalise and obligate Lord Kerslake (CB) [V]: My Lords, I first thank the responsible practices throughout UK market-related noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, and the noble supply chains and finance to ensure comprehensive Baronesses, Lady Neville-Rolfe, Lady Bakewell and accountability and help prevent deforestation and other Lady Jones of Whitchurch, for their comments. I also global environmental damage. welcome the Minister’s response on the consultation. I am concerned about the need to get the practicalities 10.15 pm right and, in particular, to have a workable model. That will require the extensive involvement of local The proposed forest risk commodities framework is government before it is finalised. a welcome first step. It should, however, also commit the Government to introducing a legally binding target On exemptions, I still feel that the Bill is too narrowly to significantly reduce the UK’s global footprint by drawn to cover eventualities when local authorities 2030; address all deforestation linked to UK forest will need to move quickly. I wonder if that can be risk commodity supply chains, whether regarded entirely covered by the Bill, in any event. I recognise as legal or illegal under local laws; include a the risks that local authorities will abuse such a power mechanism to progressively improve the framework, but, nevertheless, we have not quite got it right yet. its implementation and enforcement; establish equivalent Recognising the hour, though, I beg leave to withdraw obligations for financial institutions; ensure that the my amendment. right to free, prior and informed consent of affected Amendment 257E withdrawn. indigenous peoples and local communities is respected; and establish clear and effective due diligence requirements, Amendment 257F not moved. including clarity on the acceptable level of risk, public reporting and adequate parliamentary oversight. Clause 108 agreed. My Amendments 260B and 260C would upgrade the parliamentary procedure to affirmative resolution Amendments 258 to 260A not moved. for regulations relating to this due diligence system. 1671 Environment Bill [12 JULY 2021] Environment Bill 1672

Given that the due diligence system required under global environmental footprint, we will miss a very paragraph 3 of Schedule 16 will be central to the significant opportunity. I suggest that my Amendment effectiveness of the schedule, any regulations made to 293B, which requires the Government to set a global specify requirements for this system should be subject—in footprint target, would provide them with the flexibility my opinion—to the affirmative procedure. This is to develop that target following Royal Assent. essential, given the public interest in this important I welcome the steps that the Government are taking new provision and the need for adequate parliamentary regarding illegal deforestation; however, Governments oversight. could make legal deforestation that is currently illegal My amendments 265B, 265C and 265D seek to in order to circumvent new measures—then we would introduce a requirement that the Secretary of State have a problem. We should also be taking into must take the steps identified through a review to consideration the many other issues surrounding this improve the effectiveness of Schedule 16. I welcome general subject; I think particularly of the cutting paragraph 17 of the schedule, which includes a down of primary forest for biomass both in Europe requirement for the Secretary of State to review the and indeed in the US and Canada. These are difficult effectiveness of the forest risk commodities framework issues, perhaps too complex for us to include in this every two years and to table before Parliament and Bill, but we must address them. What we can do is publish a report of the conclusions, but there are no ensure that we have full parliamentary accountability. requirements regarding the quality, transparency or independence of this review. Nor is there a requirement to address any deficiencies or weaknesses identified by Lord Lucas (Con) [V]: My Lords, I have two a review or to make any needed improvements to the amendments in this group: Amendments 263 and 265. content, implementation or enforcement of the forest I thoroughly welcome the Government’s approach in risk commodities framework. Given the novelty of the this area. We have a responsibility as the consumers of due diligence framework and the fact that much of it forest products to make sure that they are sourced in a will be set by secondary legislation, it is important that way we are comfortable with. Tokeep blindly consuming, the review procedure ensures that, where deficiencies say, palm oil without regard to the consequences is to are identified, there are clear procedures that result in take less than our responsibility for what is happening. improvements to the framework. This would help to It is our demand that is driving the production, and it ensure that the measure is progressively improved over is therefore our responsibility. We need to find ways in time and keeps pace with other legislation being developed, which we can exercise that responsibility without including in the EU. It would also enable the due encroaching on the national rights of the people doing diligence framework to be adjusted to address any the producing. For instance, in the case of palm oil, I deregulation or undermining of protections for forests think it is entirely reasonable to ask that it is produced in producer countries. The Secretary of State should without further encroachment on virgin forest. My be required to seek and consider independent expert Amendment 263 suggests that we should also include advice and consult with stakeholders when proposing peatlands and wetlands within that definition of “forest”. changes to the framework. Both of these are environments that palm oil plantations My amendment 293B asks for a requirement to set can encroach on. They are both environments of great a global footprint target, as the Bill is silent on how ecological significance, and we should therefore have the UK Government intend to address our global as much interest in them as we do in a forest. footprint. The Bill therefore does not deliver on the In order to know what is going on in response to commitment in the 25-year environment plan, as I our demand for palm oil, we need some information. mentioned earlier. In its Biodiversity in the UK: Bloom The obvious information we have access to is satellite or Bust? report, published on 30 June, the Environmental records, but they are not much use unless you can tie Audit Committee recommended that the Government them to what is happening on the ground. We will should set a target to reduce the UK’s global need some form of baseline—I hope very much that environmental footprint. New evidence from the World COP 26 may provide that—or a map of where things Wildlife Fund found that, as a nation, we need to are so that change can be measured from that. We reduce our global footprint by three-quarters if we are need to be conscious of the fact that it is not necessarily to live within our planetary means. The report highlights the big boys doing the encroaching. It can be small that human impacts on the natural world are driven by farmers, subsistence farmers or people working out a overconsumption, unsustainable extraction rates and small living who make the first cut, and then the big the methods we use to produce material goods. The boys come in behind them, reward them and move UK is a particularly large consumer of products with them on to the next patch of virgin forest. What we a major environmental impact. The report found that need to watch is not some small detail but the overall the UK needs to reduce its ecological footprint by effect, so that we know that palm oil sourced from a 60%, its material footprint by 38%, its biomass footprint particular area or country has been done so ethically. by 48%, its nitrogen footprint by 89%, its phosphorus Amendment 265 deals with how we might make footprint by 85% and its carbon footprint by 85%. that work. I am suggesting that we should be able to Significant reductions in the UK’s footprint should give our approval to an organisation such as the not be interpreted as meaning that the UK’s economy Roundtable on Sustainable Palm Oil so that we can must shrink, or that the well-being of UK citizens use it as an internationally recognised collaborative must be reduced. With very few exceptions, the targets method of telling us which sources of palm oil are proposed are about doing things differently. If the Bill ethical. Then we should build some reward into that continues to exclude measures to address the UK’s system. I am sure we would come up against the WTO 1673 Environment Bill [LORDS] Environment Bill 1674

[LORD LUCAS] the determination of legality very difficult, time- again, but, as we have discussed before this evening, consuming, expensive or virtually impossible. Schedule 16 we need the WTO to become responsive to environmental as it stands risks bogging down UK courts with difficult imperatives. If a country is producing ethically farmed questions about the interpretation and application of palm oil, we should be able to reward it with a premium, foreign laws. which should then go back into the process of making I know the Government have absolutely no wish sure that palm oil is ethical and supporting the people to impose these problems on our industries. If they producing it on those terms, so that we get a virtuous accept this amendment, they will surely provide clarity, circle. consistency and certainty for UK businesses and for Those are my two suggestions for how we might the countries of origin where deforestation is currently make things more effective than they appear to be in taking place. Leading UK companies have appealed the Bill. It is important that we look for a system that to the Government to support a more rigorous standard does not just deal with the import of the primary than that set out in Schedule 16. product but enables us to get at imports that contain I thank the head of the Bill team and four other substantial amounts of the product; otherwise, we just officials for the very helpful meeting we had on Thursday. disadvantage our own producers. Working through They argued that 70% of deforestation for agriculture something like a round table or an import tariff scheme is illegal. Yes, but 30% is legal. Also, this is changing as would allow us to do that. we speak. The Brazilian Government are in the process of legalising forest lands. Paulo from Brazil, at a Baroness Meacher (CB): My Lords, I will speak to highly informative Global Witness meeting—I thank my Amendment 264A. The noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, Global Witness for its incredible help on this—referred was very keen to speak on this amendment, to which to a recent forest code which has legalised 12 million he added his name, but for technical reasons was hectares of forest and a legislative package that will unable to do so. retrospectively legalise deforestation. The Bill encourages I congratulate the Government on their attempt to further legalisation to circumvent laws based on legality. tackle the alarming rate of deforestation. They plan to This is dangerous. I understand that, despite all these do this by prohibiting the use of certain commodities issues, the Government want to work with producer associated with illegal—I emphasise the word— countries to improve governance. This approach assumes deforestation and by requiring large companies to that we are dealing with Governments who share our undertake due diligence and report on their activities values—sadly, we are not. in the relevant areas. I emphasise the word illegal Paulo from Brazil was appealing to the UK—appealing because here lies the risk; the Bill as it stands risks to me to appeal to the Minister, I should say—to incentivising Governments to change their laws to introduce a strong law to prevent commercial activity make sure that far greater deforestation—perhaps all based on deforested land, whether legal or illegal. He of it—becomes legal. This Environment Bill will then is deeply concerned about his Government’sdetermination have little or no benefit in preventing deforestation. I to undermine our legality-based legislation. know this is not the intention of the Government, but I ask the Minister to consider most carefully the risk of leaving Schedule 16 as it stands. 10.30 pm As other noble Lords know, deforestation is a huge I understand that we must take seriously the fact global problem and solving it has to be a top priority that WTO rules are against import bans. We need to for COP 26. Just a couple of statistics will make the argue for an exception to this rule on the basis that our point. In 2020 alone, primary humid tropical forest law is the least restrictive to achieve our objective. In loss covered some 4.2 million hectares—an area the view of the regimes responsible for the world’s greatest size of the Netherlands. Paragraphs 2(1) and 2(2) of forests, we can legitimately use the least restrictive Schedule 16 make it clear that, as long as local laws are argument in this case. I understand that the Government’s complied with, commodities grown on land where position is that we should not be creating a wall forest has been cleared can be traded commercially by around the UK in the year of COP 26, but we would UK companies. However, deforestation behind UK not be alone. The Minister will be aware that the EU is imports of commodities accounts for an area of tree planning legislation to adopt a full deforestation approach. loss almost the size of the entire UK. This year has That is an approach in line with this amendment. I seen the highest deforestation rates in the Brazilian would be very grateful if the Minister could explain Amazon in over a decade. This will only get worse the Government’sattitude to this. I hope the Government without this amendment. want us to be a world leader on deforestation, not a Apart from the Bill as it stands incentivising weak state lagging behind the EU. I hope that the Governments to legalise deforestation in their own Government will bring forward their own amendment countries, even now a third of tropical deforestation is on Report based on a deforestation-free standard drawing defined as legal and will not be tackled by Schedule on international standards and which would apply to 16, unless it is amended. Scientists in Brazil tell us: all UK sourcing. Dozens of organisations from Brazil, “Currently in Brazil, approximately 88 million hectares … 4 Indonesia and Cameroon working on the front lines times the size of the UK, could be cleared legally on private of deforestation called on the Government to take this properties under Brazilian forest law.” approach, as did over 20 of the UK’s largest agri-food Another major issue is that laws relating to land supply chain companies. I ask the Minister to follow use, forests and commodity production are often that advice and I look forward to his response. I uncertain, inconsistent or poorly implemented, making apologise for the length of this contribution. 1675 Environment Bill [12 JULY 2021] Environment Bill 1676

Baroness Sheehan (LD): My Lords, I will speak to that the British public do not want these tainted the five amendments in the group which either appear goods? I cite the remarkable outcome of the Government’s in my name or to which I have added my name. I will public consultation on due diligence on forest risk confine my remarks to them in the interests of time, commodities: over 99% of respondents supported the but I register my strong support for all the amendments introduction of legislation to reduce all deforestation. in the group, with perhaps a question mark over When can we expect a response to the consultation? Amendment 265 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord I tabled Amendment 264B to paragraph 3 of Lucas. It has not been explained in the amendment Schedule 16 on the due diligence system as a probing how relative product advantage would be measured. amendment to see what estimation the Government I am fortunate to have been preceded by the noble have made of the acceptable level of mitigation of risk Lords, Lord Randall and Lord Lucas, and by the by businesses operating forest risk commodities. If the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, who spoke about why objective of Schedule 16 to avoid products consumed these amendments needed to have been tabled, so I in the UK contributing to deforestation abroad is to can say a lot less. I am sorry to have to speak before be met, UK businesses must be confident that there is my noble friend Lady Parminter, in whose name no more than a negligible risk that their products are Amendment 265A appears. This is an important linked to deforestation. Does the Minister agree that a amendment, which—given the UK’s position as a requirement to mitigate risk without specifying the leader in financial services—in many ways goes to the extent to which risks must be mitigated is rather vague heart of our leadership on both climate change and and subjective? What consideration have the Government human rights issues. It has my strong support. given to the question, as an unqualified requirement I will address Amendment 264ZA in the names of to mitigate risks leaves businesses open to legitimately the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, and take the least action required to achieve the most my noble friend Lord Oates, and to which I have minimal reduction in their assessment of risk rather added my name also. The amendment has been tabled than the action required to genuinely minimise the to draw attention to the current situation in which level of risk? What would stop this happening? In the human rights abuses of indigenous peoples abound, way that Schedule 16 is currently drafted, it is not clear sometimes leading to death, and to offer a remedy of to me; maybe the Minister can enlighten me. I would sorts. In order to make local laws fit for purpose, it is appreciate a thorough response from him on this critical to ensure that the UK requires businesses to amendment, maybe in writing. have evidence that the free, prior and informed consent— Amendment 265ZA in my name would require the FPIC—of indigenous peoples in forest communities Secretary of State to consult stakeholders when making has been obtained in the production of forest risk regulations on the content and form of annual reports commodities on their land and local area. on the due diligence system, and on how such reports There is a strong body of evidence which shows are to be made publicly available. The amendment is, I that FPIC reduces deforestation, reduces attacks on suppose,inspired by lessons learned in the implementation forest custodians and develops strong, commercially of Section 54 of the Modern Slavery Act 2015, which productive relationships. This is particularly important introduced a requirement on businesses above a certain for the 80% of indigenous and community lands that size to publish a slavery and human trafficking statement do not yet have secure legal rights. FPIC is defined every year. It has become apparent that changes are under international law, and commitments to full or needed. The Commons Foreign Affairs Committee partial FPIC are included in a diverse array of industry recently published a report which concludes that the standards, OECD guidance and company commitments. MSA is too weak and the criteria for producing the It should be specifically included in Schedule 16 to statements are in need of reform. The implication for underscore our global leadership on both climate change this part of the Environment Bill is that it is important and human rights. I also point out that the Global to ensure that the form and arrangements for publishing Resource Initiative task force—commissioned by BEIS, reports by a regulated person should be informed by Defra, and the FCDO, so this is the Government’s public consultation so that lessons such as those from own body—in its report of March 2020 specifically the Modern Slavery Act can be properly factored in. I recommended that the UK Government urgently look forward to the Minister’s reply. introduce a mandatory combined human rights and Thefinalamendmentinmyname,Amendment265AA, environmental due diligence approach to forest risk aimstostrengthentheenforcementof Part1requirements commodities. and Part 2 regulations through a civil sanctions regime. Schedule 16 is the UK’s first due diligence process As drafted, Schedule 16 states the potential for civil with respect to forest risk commodities, yet it makes sanctions to be issued for failures to comply with the no mention whatever of mitigating human rights abuses Schedule’srequirements, except where a regulated person through free, prior and informed consent. This is a “took all reasonable steps to implement a due diligence system”. moral and practical oversight and I look forward to However, “reasonable steps” is not defined; it could the Minister’s response about how this omission can mean any number of things. The exception to liability be justified. is too broad and potentially undermines the effectiveness Amendment 264A, in the name of the noble Baroness, of the due diligence obligations. Would it not be far Lady Meacher, and the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, clearer to instead mandate a regulated person to take which I support, seeks to address the potential gaping the steps necessary to implement an effective due loophole that would be set up by differentiating between diligence system, as my amendments suggest? My legal and illegal deforestation. Does the Minister accept final question to the Minister is: why do the Government 1677 Environment Bill [LORDS] Environment Bill 1678

[BARONESS SHEEHAN] for reporting on climate-related financial information not do that? It would be far more effective to state that they intend to introduce will tackle the problem—but what they actually want rather than a woolly form of in reality they cannot. These reports will focus only on words that is an open invitation to those with, shall we annual carbon emissions and are not suited to identifying say, creative minds. the links between the provision of finance for agricultural I will end with this reflection: deforestation is the crops growing on land cleared of forest several years second largest contributor to global warming, second before; they will also not require any assessment of the only to fossil fuels. What happens to rainforests matters legality of the forest clearance. to us all. The Government should seize with both The reports the importers of these commodities hands the opportunity presented by this Bill to play will be required to issue on the actions they have taken their part in stopping the wanton destruction of all to establish their due diligence systems will provide rainforests, especially in this seminal year, when they helpful information but, again, they will relate to the hold the presidency of COP 26. final stages in the supply chain—the trade of the commodities. Far better, surely, to require banks to Baroness Parminter (LD): My Lords, I rise to introduce conduct due diligence on their lending and interventions Amendment 265A in my name, for the support of at the start of the process when the initial finance is which I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Randall provided. of Uxbridge, the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, and the The financial sector is one of the British economy’s noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch. greatest strengths, but it will fail to remain so if it Like other Peers,I welcome the inclusion of Schedule 16 continues to fund activities which contribute to the and its introduction into law of an essential means climate and nature emergencies. I recognise and applaud of combating the deforestation associated with the the many steps that individual banks and financial consumption of forest risk commodities in the UK. institutions are already taking to green their activities. Yet the trade in these commodities is only the final Requiring all of them to conduct due diligence to stage of the supply chain; their production must also avoid their lending contributing to illegal deforestation be financed and, because the UK is such an important is hardly a radical move. Indeed, it is the minimum we global source of capital, British banks and financial should expect. institutions currently supply a considerable proportion of this investment. 10.45 pm As Global Witness reported, in 2020, UK banks Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab) [V]: My Lords, channelled over £900 million into over 300 major I very much welcome the Government’s commitment companies involved in forest risk commodities such as to requiring businesses to ensure that the forest risk palm oil, soya and beef. Between 2013 and 2019, commodities they use to have been produced in UK-based financial institutions were the single biggest compliance with local laws, but it is only a start, as source of international finance for six major agribusiness other noble Lords have pointed out. I particularly companies involved in deforestation in the climate-critical support Amendment 293B in the name of the noble forests of Brazil, the Congo basin and Papua New Lord, Lord Randall of Uxbridge. What we have in the Guinea, providing £5 billion over this period. I am not Bill does not deliver on the commitment in the 25-year claiming that all this investment financed illegal activities, environment plan to ensure that but, almost certainly, some of it did. As Forest Trends “our consumption and impact on natural capital are sustainable, reported earlier this year, over the period of 2000-2012, at home and overseas.” 49% of tropical deforestation for agricultural commodities was thought to be illegal; between 2013 and 2019, the The Environmental Audit Committee’srecent biodiversity proportion rose to at least 69%. Illegal conversion of report called for forests for agriculture is destroying an area of forest “a target to reduce the UK’s global environmental footprint”, the size of Norway each year. as does the amendment, and I support that idea. The point is that these banks do not have adequate Commitment to a target would set an ambition to systems in place to ensure they are not funding illegal do more over the next few years and allow the Government deforestation. Extending the same requirements for to develop further measures covering issues such as the exercise of due diligence to banks as this Bill illegal deforestation, as raised by the amendment of would impose on importers is a sensible move. This is the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, and financial issues, not merely my view. That was the conclusion of the as raised by the amendment in the name of the noble Global Resource Initiative Taskforce of sustainability Baroness, Lady Parminter. I know that the Minister leaders from finance, business and civil society, which has a personal commitment to this issue, and I hope he was established by this Government in 2019. It was can respond positively. chaired by Sir Ian Cheshire, who was at that time On a particular case which the noble Lord, chairman of Barclays UK. In its report last year, it Lord Randall, raised just now and previously, every concluded: year, an area of forest and biodiversity bigger than the “Financial institutions provide enabling financial services across New Forest is sacrificed to feed biomass-based electricity the commodity supply chain and so should be obligated to generation in the UK. The replacement forests take exercise due diligence with regard to their lending and investments.” decades to mature and cannot be regarded as equivalent No other mechanism currently requires banks to in either carbon or biodiversity terms. The people of carry out due diligence for illegal deforestation. The Britain pay through the nose for this: they pay more Government have argued, in their response to the than £2 million per day to subsidise those large biomass Global Resource Initiative report, that the requirements power plants. In view of the damage to forests and 1679 Environment Bill [12 JULY 2021] Environment Bill 1680 biodiversity caused by the wood pellet industry in the very difficult to determine legality, and companies can USA and Estonia, can the Minister use the Bill to be trapped in a regulatory, paperwork minefield review the dubious sustainability claims made by Drax, from which the amendment of the noble Baroness, end public subsidy and ensure that the performance of Lady Meacher, could free them. Of course, 2.1 million a large biomass power plant is not compared with hectares of natural vegetation within the 133 Brazilian hugely polluting coal but with other green technologies municipalities that currently supply the UK with soya such as wind and solar? could be legally deforested. I come now to Amendment 264ZA in the name of Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP) [V]: My the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, which Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, calls for the recognition of customary land ownership Lady Young of Old Scone, and to express my support and membership systems. Some 80% of indigenous for nearly all the amendments in this group, except and community lands are held without legally recognised Amendments 263 and 265. tenure rights. We know that in indigenous and tribal We should start by acknowledging that this is yet territories, deforestation rates are significantly lower. one more sign that campaigning works. Schedule 16 Ensuring respect for customary tenure rights is an represents amendments brought by the Government efficient, just and cost-effective way to reduce carbon in the other place which reflect the campaigning of a emissions.Noble Lords who have been reading The House great many NGOs and other groups and, as other magazine might know that I have some recommendations noble Lords have said, the conclusions of the independent for summer reading in there. I would like to add Global Resource Initiative Taskforce.However,as multiple an extra one: Imbolo Mbue’ssecond novel, How Beautiful briefings that we have all received show, it still needs We Were, which is set in a fictional African village and improvement to deliver on the recommendations of shows how it was depleted by centuries of the activities the GRIT and the expectations of UK consumers and of fossil fuel companies, forest exploitation and rubber businesses. plantations, going back to slavery.Wereally cannot allow I shall not go through each amendment, but I shall this kind of relationship with the world to continue. start with Amendment 293B in the name of the noble I come now to Amendment 265A in the name of Lord, Lord Randall of Uxbridge, because it is in many the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter. What we are doing ways the most far-reaching and crucial. This is the one here is the reverse of what your Lordships’ House that calls for a global footprint target. I shall start with achieved in the Financial Services Bill. After a lot of the benefit for the UK, before looking more broadly. wrestling, we finally got a reference to climate—although, It would reduce the risk of future pandemics; I do not unfortunately, not biodiversity—into the Finance Bill. really need to say more than that. It would help What we also need to do is to get recognition of the safeguard against the economic costs of biodiversity damage the financial sector does to the rest of the world, decline and climate change. The WWF Global Futures and we need to see finance addressed in all the other report calculated that that will cost the world at least Bills. The UK is the single biggest source of international £368 billion a year, with the UK suffering annual finance for six of the most harmful agribusiness companies damage to its economy of £16 billion a year by 2050. involved in deforestation in Brazil, the Congo basin It would also support the resilience of UK and global and Papua New Guinea, lending £5 billion between businesses. It would help businesses to manage risk 2013 and 2019. These UK banks included HSBC, proactively. Coming back to the Government’s desire, Barclays, and Standard Chartered. We simply cannot of which we so often hear, to be world-leading, it allow this to continue. would mean that the UK was the first country to Noble Lords may not think so, but I am really embed the latest pledge for nature into its legislation. trying to be brief, so I will turn to some very short It is crucial. concluding thoughts. If deforestation was a country, it It is worth noting that this amendment is another would be the third largest emitter of carbon, behind way of addressing the issue I addressed in the amendment China and the US. Some 80% of deforestation is I moved to Clause 1, many days ago, on reducing associated with agricultural production, yet figures resource use rather than making it more efficient. We published this afternoon from five major UN agencies need to reduce our ecological footprint by around show that the number of people without access to 75% to fit within ecological limits. The WWF global healthy diets has grown by 320 million in the last year. footprint report looked at some of the key issues: our They now number 2.37 billion in total. A fifth of all material footprint needs to come down by 38%, biomass children under five are stunted because of lack of by 48%, nitrogen—for which I tabled a specific amendment access to the most basic resource of all: food. earlier—by 89%, and phosphorous by 85%. We have to stop wrecking other people’s countries. The most basic amendment that I would surely We have to ensure that our lives are lived within the suggest the Minister has to adopt in some form is limits of this fragile planet, and that everyone else has Amendment 264A, in the name of the noble Baroness, access to that same basic level of resources that is their Lady Meacher. She has already made many powerful human right. arguments, in particular that if we do not introduce this amendment there will a perverse incentive to Lord Blencathra (Con): My Lords, I declare my encourage the legalisation of deforestation. UK businesses interests as in the register. While I warmly welcome all could also benefit from this amendment. Currently, in the provisions that the Government have put into this many parts of the world laws relating to land use, Bill on this matter of due diligence, I also support the forests and commodity production are numerous, amendments in the name of my noble friend Lord Randall uncertain, inconsistent and poorly implemented. It is of Uxbridge, who moved them so powerfully, eloquently 1681 Environment Bill [LORDS] Environment Bill 1682

[LORD BLENCATHRA] Estimates of the total number of species in the world and rapidly. I pay tribute, too, to the passionate and vary from 2 million to 100 million, the best estimate excellent speech by the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, being that there are about 10 million species of living which was a pleasure to listen to. things, ranging from nematode worms, slugs, molluscs, I will comment first on Amendment 265A, in the plant life and fungi to trees, birds and the cuddly name of the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, my noble animals that we worry about. friend Lord Randall of Uxbridge, the noble Earl, Biodiversity, however, is not just about saving the Lord Sandwich, and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones red squirrels, polar bears, orangutans, lemurs and of Whitchurch. It is a rather ingenious and clever tigers—as vital and close to my heart as some of those approach, and I was appalled to hear that British are. Of far greater importance to the planet are the institutions—if I heard the noble Baroness correctly—have plants and bugs that we never see and are not cuddly. raised about £5 billion of funding for the illegal destruction of rainforest. If British banks and financial institutions 11 pm are involved, we have to find ways of putting a stop to As John Sawhill of the Nature Conservancy said: them doing that sort of thing. “In the end, our society will be defined not by what we create, The current provisions in the Bill quite rightly but what we refuse to destroy.” impose obligations on regulated persons who are trading Like the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, I have pointed products from endangered rainforests. As in every out that that is why the rainforests are so important. other business, however, the normal rule is “Follow They are being destroyed at an alarming, escalating the money”: if you want to catch illegal or improper rate and the types of alternative uses to which the land behaviour,look at the money flows. Putting an obligation is being put are changing constantly: soybeans, palm on all financial institutions to exercise the same due oil, bananas, pineapples, tea, coffee, rubber and cattle diligence as the companies that import and export ranching. As the destroyers of the lungs of the earth timber would plug a potentially big gap. How do we keep changing their modus operandi, so we must be crack down on money laundering and terrorist financing? nimble and flexible and change our response. That is We do it by putting an obligation on all financial why I like my noble friend Lord Randall’s amendments, institutions to report transactions above £10,000. It because they suggest to the Government that we build works for illegal money transactions, and it can work in a review procedure and if things change, we change for destructive timber transactions or the financing of our approach. palm oil, soya bean or ranching projects. I say in conclusion to the Minister that I do not I rather like my noble friend’s Amendments 265B think the amendments impose an unreasonable burden and 265D. Why should we try to save the rainforest? on the Government, and I commend them to him. The rationale for saving the rainforest is infinitely greater than just reducing carbon emissions—important Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd (CB) [V]: It is a great though that is—or saving indigenous people or preventing pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra. In mahogany and other tree species from being extinguished. the light of what he has said, it is unnecessary for me The rationale is that the rainforest is the “medicine to say anything other than to warmly endorse his cabinet” of the world, to steal another phrase from the words in respect of Amendment 265A in respect of Prince’s Rainforests Project. the financial services industry and the amendments in As rainforest species disappear, so too do many the name of the noble Lord, Lord Randall of Uxbridge, possible cures for life-threatening diseases. Currently, on the longer-term plans. 121 prescription drugs that are sold worldwide are I shall concentrate on one aspect only, in view of derived from plant sources, and 25% of western the lateness of the hour: the methods on which control pharmaceuticals are derived from rainforest ingredients. over the use of forest risk commodities can most However, fewer than 1% of tropical trees and plants effectively be framed for enforcement in the United have been tested by scientists. So we have tested 1% and Kingdom. Three methods are under consideration. are burning the other 99%, yet we are getting 25% of They can be cumulative and probably should be, and our drugs from that small 1%. That is a very dangerous should operate together. What is essential is to examine pyramid. each and see whether one can stand on its own or A single pond in Brazil can sustain a greater variety whether all three would work better together. of fish than is found in all the rivers of Europe put I take the first, which is the proposal in the Bill to allow together. A 25-acre area of rainforest in Borneo may the use of forest risk commodities only if local laws contain more than 700 species of trees—a figure equal have been complied with. This is unlikely to be effective to the total tree diversity of North America. A single and indeed, as the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, rainforest in Peru is home to more species of birds explained, it could be counterproductive. The reason than are found in the entire United States, and the why it is likely to be ineffective is that most of the number of species of fish in the Amazon exceeds the localities with which we are concerned have legal and number found in the entire Atlantic Ocean. legislative systems that do not protect from deforestation So I repeat my question: how can we in the West be because of political and economic pressure. Even if so stupid as to permanently destroy, or fund the protection is initially given, there are numerous instances destruction of, a habitat when we have not looked at of retrospective validation of deforestation in 99% of the species in it? Some scientists estimate that contravention of local law.Such retrospective validation we are losing more than 130 species of plants and would make the use legal under the local law and would animals every single day through rainforest destruction. therefore render this method of halting deforestation We just do not know, yet we are carrying on regardless. nugatory. Furthermore, proof that the commodity 1683 Environment Bill [12 JULY 2021] Environment Bill 1684 was produced in contravention of local law is likely to Amendment 264A, in the name of the noble Baroness, cause significant difficulty and uncertainty and Lady Meacher, has a similar purpose: to do what we considerable expense if the matter comes for enforcement can in this country to prevent exploitive deforestation. in the UK. Thus, in my view, the first method is It would ensure a total prohibition, except in relation unlikely to be effective. to indigenous people, on importing forest risk products The second method, as set out in the amendment in from agricultural land which should never have been the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of cleared in the first place, as trees should still be standing. Whitchurch, is to add a further requirement in respect The noble Baroness put forward powerful arguments of the locality: the informed consent of indigenous in favour of her amendment, strongly supported just people and local communities. I would welcome this now by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas of as a vital addition and safeguard, if the first method is Cwmgiedd, with his important phrase about retrospective to be chosen. However, although I have no doubt that validation. A forest which should never have been NGOs and other organisations would give every assistance felled in the first place might get some kind of legal in establishing whether informed consent was given, I retrospective validation, but we need to ensure that would anticipate that establishing the factual position that wood should still not be imported. For those in a UK court would be far from easy—the difficulties reasons, I strongly support both those amendments. are obvious. However, if the first method is to be used as set out in the Bill, this would be an essential part of Lord Oates (LD): My Lords, I declare my interest having effective enforcement. as chair of the advisory board of Weber Shandwick The third method is that set out in the amendment UK. As we have heard in this debate, deforestation in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, poses a catastrophic threat to biodiversity and to the which is to prohibit use if land has been deforested climate of our planet, but in addressing these issues we after the commencement of the schedule as further should show some humility and acknowledge up front delineated in regulations made by the Secretary of that we have almost completely deforested our landscape State. In my view, this amendment would be wholly in the UK and in much of Europe, and we need to be effective on its own and certainly buttress the other conscious of that in all our debates. two methods. It would leave no room for dispute as to However, the fact remains that life on our planet the status of the areas from which the commodity will not be sustainable if the current rate of deforestation comes, as it is an objective standard not dependent on continues. We have heard a range of analogies and proof or either local law or the consent of the indigenous figures in this respect. The World Wide Fund for people or local communities. Nature estimates that the equivalent of 30 football If the third method were adopted, it would give pitches of forestry were lost every second in the tropics great clarity, which is essential if this law is to operate in 2019. That is a staggering rate of destruction and as a deterrent to industries in the UK using forest risk there are many worrying signs that it is accelerating. commodities in breach of what everyone agrees ought I welcome the Government’s attempts to address to be prevented. I therefore warmly support the third the issue in the schedule, but they would be immeasurably of the methods—that is, the amendment in the name strengthened by the majority of the amendments in this of the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher—but if that group. There seem to be a few main themes in the cannot be done, we must have the amendment in the amendments. The first is around strengthening name of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch. parliamentary procedures to ensure proper scrutiny of the delegated powers under this section of the Bill. Amendments 260B and 260C in the name of the noble Lord Harries of Pentregarth (CB) [V]: My Lords, I Lord, Lord Randall, to which he spoke so clearly, seek wish to support Amendment 264ZA, in the name of to tackle that. From these Benches, we certainly support the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, and him. Amendment 264A, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher. As we know, the rate of deforestation The second theme seeks to tackle the issue of legal on our planet is a scandal and an increasing threat to deforestation and the rights of indigenous people. The both our climate and the extent of our biodiversity. In amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, is some parts of the world, it is also a threat to the critical if the Bill is to have real effect. As we have indigenous population who live in the forests, a denial heard, it is supported by the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, of their fundamental human rights. Their habitat, who, for technical reasons, was not able to be here but their lives and their livelihood are often endangered by was very keen that his support was underlined. deforestation. As the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, said, and as Amendment 264ZA, in the name of the noble Baroness, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, Lady Jones, rightly seeks to ensure that if forest risk wood underlined, if we continue simply with the definition is imported, it has been felled only with the permission in the Bill as the Government have drafted it, the Bill of the indigenous population. It is not enough just for could end up being counterproductive, either having local laws to be observed, which may be too permissive little effect or incentivising countries to legalise further or open to manipulation by local interests; there must deforestation, as the noble Baroness said. be safeguards for those most directly affected. Our We know that there is a particular issue in certain laws cannot reach into those areas, but we can at least jurisdictions, and we have heard about the situation in ensure that we do what is open to us to do in this Brazil, where, sadly, the President seems to have little country, which is to have appropriate checks in place regard either for the need to protect forests or for the for importers of forest risk material. rights of indigenous people. Although I understand 1685 Environment Bill [LORDS] Environment Bill 1686

[LORD OATES] 11.15 pm that there are a lot of complexities around WTO rules, As currently worded, Schedule 16, while a welcome their main focus is around non-discrimination; as long step forward by the Government, is full of loopholes as one tackles that and provides a mechanism that is and, as we have heard, could be counterproductive. non-discriminatory but focused on actions, that should Those loopholes would undoubtedly be exploited by be possible. unscrupulous political and commercial interests that Amendment 264ZA, in the name of the noble do not care about either our planet or its people. The Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, which I have majority of the amendments in this group seek to plug also signed, aims to ensure that forestry commodities many of these loopholes and therefore strengthen the cannot be used unless the consent of indigenous Bill’sability to deliver on what I believe is the Government’s communities has been obtained prior to their production. good intent. I hope, therefore, that the Minister will There are those who claim that measures to prevent respond positively and undertake either to accept deforestation are somehow a case of westerners seeking amendments on Report or to come back with government to impose their values on other countries, having amendments. hypocritically destroyed their own forests. However, the reality is that local indigenous people suffer most Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab): My Lords, this from deforestation, and it is very often unscrupulous is a really important group of amendments and I am multinational, often western, firms that are responsible pleased that, despite the late hour, we have managed to for destroying forests and the livelihoods of indigenous have a good debate around them. I will speak to people. My noble friend Lady Sheehan and the noble Amendment 264ZA, in the name of my noble friend and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, also set out the Lady Jones of Whitchurch and the noble Lord, importance of the human rights angle in relation to Lord Oates, but we also support other amendments in deforestation. The amendment of the noble Baroness, this group and thank noble Lords for tabling them. Lady Jones, seeks to address this gap, and we on these There are some very important points that need to be Benches strongly support it. addressed. The third theme in this group of amendments relates In his introduction to his amendment, the noble to the financing of forest destruction, which is a Lord, Lord Randall of Uxbridge, talked about the critical area. Amendment 265A, in the name of my Government’s 25-year environment plan and their noble friend Lady Parminter, which has support from commitment to ensuring that across the Committee, seeks to address the financing “our consumption and impact on natural capital are sustainable, of deforestation, and is highly significant. My noble at home and overseas.” friend explained the critical role of capital, including It is therefore a bit disappointing that the Environment UK capital, in funding tropical deforestation, and the Bill does not currently reflect this commitment adequately. fact that banks do not have the mechanisms in place to The Global Resource Initiative task force recommended ensure that they are operating proper due diligence back in March 2020 that the Government and not funding illegal forest clearance. As the noble “urgently introduces a mandatory due diligence obligation on Lord, Lord Blencathra, said, the watchword here is companies that place commodities and derived products that “follow the money”—that is critical. My noble friend contribute to deforestation”, also highlighted the need to protect the reputation of whether legal or illegal under local laws, on the UK the City if we are to establish ourselves as a centre of market. It also recommended that, since not all businesses green finance in the world. This amendment would have begun to commit to and implement sustainable help in all these regards. supply chains, a legally binding target to end deforestation The theme of global impact is enshrined in —as we have heard from other noble Lords—would Amendment 293B of the noble Lord, Lord Randall, provide the “necessary signal” for a shift in industry which would require the Government to set a target to behaviour. As the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of reduce the UK’s global footprint. Again, this is a key Manor Castle, did, we welcome the Government’s amendment in tackling deforestation. As the noble amendment that was tabled in the other place following Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, said, it is campaigning, and the fact that Schedule 16 now includes perhaps the most crucial because it gets to the heart of a new prohibition on the use of certain commodities the issue by targeting resource use, and we support associated with illegal deforestation and requirements this approach. for large companies to undertake due diligence and Finally, there were a number of other important reporting. However, as we heard in the debate, the amendments in the name of my noble friend provisions simply do not go far enough in progressing Lady Sheehan, including: Amendment 264B, on either the GRI recommendations or the level of action introducing an assessment of the level of risk; that is demanded. Amendment 265ZA, which, as my noble friend explained, The noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, mentioned the would require the Secretary of State to consult with lack of attention to human rights in Schedule 16. relevant persons before making regulations under the NGOs such as Global Witness and Forest Peoples schedule; and Amendment 265AA, which would require Programme have highlighted that there is currently no a regulated person to take all steps necessary to implement mention of human rights or of indigenous peoples and an effective due diligence system, rather than the lower others who live in forests and rely on them for their bar of “reasonable”steps. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, livelihoods and survival. The Bill must be strengthened also had a number of amendments which are interesting, to tackle the growing problems caused by deforestation but we would want to understand a little more about and to drive action to significantly reduce our global their operation before supporting them. footprint. The noble Lord, Lord Oates, talked about 1687 Environment Bill [12 JULY 2021] Environment Bill 1688 the appalling impact of this country’srole in deforestation. are really not suited to the specific issues around This really does need to be better recognised. Due deforestation and are unlikely to curb financing. The diligence legislation is only part of the comprehensive Bill needs to specify that UK finance institutions must approach that will be needed to deliver deforestation-free not provide financial services to commercial enterprises supply chains and to significantly reduce global footprint linked to deforestation and human rights abuses, so we impacts more broadly. strongly support the noble Baroness’s amendment. We also support Amendments 265B to 265D in the Land conversion for agricultural purposes is often name of the noble Lord, Lord Randall of Uxbridge, associated with negative human rights impacts. Beyond which seek to introduce a requirement that the Secretary local laws, it is therefore critical to ensure that the UK of State must take the steps identified through a requires businesses to have evidence that the free, prior review to improve the effectiveness of Schedule 16. and informed consent of indigenous peoples and forest Amendment 293B in the name of the noble Lord, communities was obtained in relation to the production Lord Randall of Uxbridge, would require the Secretary of forest risk commodities on their land and in the of State to set a target to significantly reduce the local area. Our amendment does this, although I am global footprint, and we support this amendment as aware that some indigenous communities see this as well. In his introduction to this amendment, the noble just the starting point. We thank the noble Earl, Lord referred to the Biodiversity in the UK: Bloom or Lord Sandwich—as others have done—for his support; Bust? report that was published in June by the he was unable to speak in the debate today. Environmental Audit Committee, which recommended Weoffer our support to Amendments 260B and 260C that the Government should set such a target. in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Randall of Wealso welcome Amendment 263, tabled by the noble Uxbridge. Schedule 16 introduces an important Lord, Lord Lucas. The noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, requirement that regulated businesses must not use talked passionately about global biodiversity, but it is certain forest risk commodities in their UK commercial important that we are all very aware of our own impacts activities unless relevant local laws are complied with on this. The production of forest risk commodities is in relation to that commodity. This is an important linked to the conversion and degradation of natural first step, but it does not go far enough since 30% of ecosystems other than forests; noble Lords have mentioned tropical forest destruction is defined as legal under savannahs,wetlands,peatlands,grasslands,andmangroves. local country laws. The noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, talked specifically about expressed her concerns that this could create a loophole, the production of palm oil, and other noble Lords and the noble Lord, Lord Oates, also mentioned this. have mentioned soya as well. There is no policy justification This loophole could risk limiting the effectiveness of for limiting provisions to forests when other natural the legislation and, as the noble Baroness said, could ecosystems are under the same pressures from commodity even incentivise Governments in countries such as production and provide the same or even greater Brazil to roll back forest protections in order to access biodiversity and climate benefits. UK markets. As deforestation is more prevalent where A large number of amendments have been discussed local laws are not enforced or upheld, this also poses in this group, and it has been an important debate on challenges as to how the UK will interpret exactly an important issue. I hope that the Minister has listened what is meant by “legal”. So, we support the very carefully to the many amendments that have been important Amendment 264A in the name of the noble debated. It is clear that noble Lords have some very Baroness, Lady Meacher, which addresses this. This serious concerns and believe that it would not take a amendment also provides for an exception for forest lot to improve the Bill quite significantly on this risk commodities produced by indigenous peoples, as aspect. I await the Minister’s response with interest. the noble Baroness spelled out so clearly. We also support Amendment 265A in the name of Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con): I have a the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter,on finance. Schedule number of amendments to address, but before I do, I 16 does not address the financing behind deforestation. will take a step back and emphasise what these measures The noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, talked about the are designed to achieve.Worldwide agricultural expansion huge amount of financing that comes from the UK drives almost 80% of deforestation. A significant and the lack of due diligence. I have to say, I learned proportion of deforestation is illegal—in some of the an enormous amount from her introduction to the world’s most important places, it is closer to 90%. amendment, and I thank her for it. In March 2020, the Decades of voluntary action have failed to end our Global Resource Initiative task force recommended contribution to deforestation through the products that the UK should require companies to undertake that we buy. Our measures will change that. Businesses checks on deforestation risk in their supply chains and will be required to ensure that the forest risk commodities that similar measures should apply to finance. But the that they use are not produced on illegally deforested Government chose to cover supply chains only,responding land. We will consult on the commodities to be included that UK finance institutions can use the new information soon, but these could include beef, cocoa, leather, gained from companies undertaking due diligence reports palm oil, rubber, soya and so on. to inform their decisions. However, experience has It has been said in a number of contributions today shown that this is likely to fail and that they are likely that we are lagging behind and need to catch up, but it not to do so unless required to by law. This is very is worth reiterating that we are not only the first important as broad-based measures on finance, such country in the world to introduce anything like this as the Task Force on Climate-Related Financial legislation but the only country to do so. Of course, Disclosures, or similar efforts on nature or biodiversity, we must do much more, but we are doing much more. 1689 Environment Bill [LORDS] Environment Bill 1690

[LORD GOLDSMITH OF RICHMOND PARK] 11.30 pm No one would pretend that this is our sole, single answer Changing our approach would grind that progress to deforestation, but it is an extraordinarily important to a standstill, and while the UK would subsequently part of our answer to tackling global deforestation. be sending a strong signal—I have no doubt about Toaddress one further point before I go into the details that—a signal is all it would be; and we need radical of the amendment, the noble Baronesses, Lady Bennett change. This is the biggest problem in the world, and if and Lady Hayman, suggested that we reluctantly accepted we are going to break the link between commodity this amendment on the back of campaigning. It was production and illegal deforestation, which accounts the Government who initiated and commissioned the for such a huge proportion of deforestation, signals GRI report which made this recommendation, and we are not going to be enough. We need action, and the have been working for many months to get this right. process and method that we have chosen is one that we It is not something that just popped in as a last-minute believe, based on intense outreach, will lead to the concession in Committee in the other place. action we need, not just the sending of some great I shall start by speaking to Amendments 264, 264A virtue signal. and 264ZA, tabled by my noble friend Lord Lucas, the The UK also recognises the vital role that indigenous noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, and the noble Baroness, people and local communities play in protecting forests. Lady Jones of Whitchurch. Given the fundamental Weare one of many countries supporting work to secure role of producer countries in protecting their forests the rights of indigenous peoples and local communities and ecosystems, and the huge proportion of illegal to forest lands—for example, through our forest deforestation, our due diligence requirements are based governance, markets and climate programme. I would on legality, and I want to explain why. Our experience like to reassure the noble Baronesses, Lady Meacher has shown that we get the best results for both people and Lady Jones of Whitchurch, that producer country and the environment when we work as closely as we laws protecting the land rights of indigenous peoples can with producer country Governments and communities and local communities are in scope of our legislation —something which is crucial in this year of COP 26 already, including laws that require obtaining free, and COP 15 on biodiversity. Working in partnership prior and informed consent. with timber-producing countries on implementing the timber regulation and the Forest Law Enforcement, Additionally,the new FCDO land facility programme Governance and Trade action plan has contributed to will work with central Government, land agencies and increased natural resource governance in those countries. local communities and businesses to promote reform We want to replicate this approach for forest risk of land governance and administration. This will include commodities. tackling barriers to the recognition and protection of communities’ land rights. We are working also with In response to comments made by the noble Baronesses, non-governmental organisations through the FCDO’s Lady Meacher and Lady Sheehan, adopting these global “Land: Enhancing Governance for Economic amendments would be a departure from the Government’s Development” programme to build a global network approach and would come at a cost. The UK is a big of paralegals helping indigenous communities and market in global terms, but on our own we are not big local communities defend and protect their land rights. enough to cause the shift globally that we need in the way that commodities are grown. We can have an As part of the forest governance, markets and impact but not a huge impact. To have that kind of climate programme, a grant of £2 million to the Asia shift, we need other countries to join us, and we know Foundation in Indonesia is supporting action to improve from the extensive diplomatic outreach that we have sustainable forest and land governance effectively by already done, and which I have been involved in, that helping communities assert their ancestral rights over we can only build that coalition using the approach the land they inhabit. I am keen, as colleagues are, to that we have adopted, based on legality. That has been extend this work dramatically. To that end, I recently very clear in the discussions that we have had. held a round table with the NGOs working in this We are working hard right now to build a global space and indigenous groups to understand how we movement of consumer and producer countries can most effectively intervene to enable indigenous committed to working with us to tackle this problem, people not just to protect themselves but to assert and we are making enormous headway. If other their land rights in such a way that they can live in countries are beginning to consider doing something perpetuity in the forest that they have protected for similar, that is because of UK leadership. Incidentally, generations. It is not a coincidence that 80% of the the EU has not yet decided what it is going to do; it world’s forests that are intact are lived in by indigenous has announced an intention to tackle due diligence people. So, we have a lot more work to do there. but has not committed to any particular form. But if On Amendment 265A, tabled by the noble Baroness, Japan, New Zealand and even the USA—we heard— Lady Parminter,we are actively supporting and developing are looking favourably at doing something on due tools to drive sustainability in the finance sector,including diligence, that is because of the work that the United as part of our response to the Dasgupta review. This Kingdom has done. I do not believe it would be includes, for example, the recently launched Taskforce happening without the leadership that the UK has on Nature-related Financial Disclosures, which was shown. There is a tendency to self-flagellate and endorsed by G7 Finance Ministers. If, as we hope, the always see the worst in our country, but there are Taskforce on Nature-related Financial Disclosures grows certain areas—and this is one of them—where I think in the way that its carbon equivalent has—which a we can be proud of the leadership that we have number of noble Lords mentioned in previous debates shown. —we will see real results. We believe that using these 1691 Environment Bill [12 JULY 2021] Environment Bill 1692 bespoke tools offers the best way of influencing the In response to Amendments 260B and 260C from financial sector in the way we know we must. Adding my noble friend Lord Randall of Uxbridge, I reassure financial services to the requirement in the Bill could him that the regulations that would be subject to his create a lot of additional work for little gain. We have amendment are detailed and technical in nature, so the already committed to targeting influential larger businesses negative procedure is most appropriate. These regulation- through this legislation which have a greater sway over making powers are clearly delimited by the framework supply chains.Extending these measures to cover financial set out in primary legislation, and I note that the services could duplicate the requirements that the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee regulation will already place on larger businesses operating did not make any recommendations on altering the in the UK. powers in our schedule. I turn to the remaining amendments tabled by my My noble friend Lord Randall of Uxbridge also noble friend Lord Lucas,beginning with Amendment 263. raised, in his Amendments 265B, 265C and 265D, the I would like to assure him that the definition of importance of regular reviews and transparency. He is “forest” as set out in paragraph 1, is based on that of right, and a number of noble Lords have made the the Food and Agriculture Organization, which is: same point. Schedule 16 contains a provision that will “land of more than 0.5 hectares with a tree canopy cover of at require the Secretary of State to conduct a review of least 10%”. the law’s effectiveness every two years once it comes This includes forested wetlands and peatlands and into force and to set out steps he intends to take as a sparsely forested savannah. As well as this, once a result. That will include a particular focus on the impact forest risk commodity is brought into scope, the legislation of our legislation on deforestation. We can, and will, will apply wherever that commodity is produced. take action if we are not seeing the results we hope for On Amendment 265, it is important to emphasise and expect. For example—and it is a point made by that these measures are not designed to give an advantage the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher—if a country were to products that have been subject to due diligence—that to start legalising activities that are currently illegal to is not their purpose. Their purpose is to ensure that all get around the new laws we are bringing in, that would regulated businesses will be legally required to undertake clearly be a problem. It would also become apparent due diligence. If businesses in scope do not meet the in our review process, and we would act. We are requirements set out in legislation, not only will they committed to doing so. not get the advantage, they will be subject to fines and other civil sanctions. This includes, under the prohibition, I also thank my noble friend Lord Randall for the import of specified products that have not been tabling Amendment 293B. As I have said many times produced on land that was legally occupied and used. in this debate, the Bill gives us the power to set long-term legally binding targets on any matter relating I assure the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, on her to the natural environment, including contributing Amendment 264B that the Government recognise that towards objectives on reducing our global footprint. risk mitigation is an important part of an effective due The UK Government are committed to leaving a diligence system. Setting the risk mitigation level in lighter footprint on the global environment, as set out this Bill would limit the scope of the legislation to in the 25-year plan. We have commissioned the Joint commodities where risk mitigation to a negligible level Nature Conservation Committee to develop a global is possible. Instead, we have chosen to give ourselves environmental footprint indicator to help us understand the ability to set the risk mitigation level in secondary the UK’s global footprint. The first phase of this work legislation, so that we are able to change it whenever was published in May this year,with further development we need to, over time—for example, in response to to follow later in the summer. The outcomes of this technological innovation that allows risk to be reduced work will help inform our future thinking on the most to a lower level. appropriate approach to drive change in this area. The noble Baroness also raised the question of consultation through Amendment 265ZA. I assure I know I have not been able to answer all the points her that the Government will engage extensively with raised on the legislative framework in detail today so, a wide range of stakeholders when developing the in the interests of time, I commit to write to Peers. We annual reporting requirements. This will help ensure are undoubtedly pioneers in these measures, and I that our measures can be as effective as possible in the appreciate the interest in getting them right. We know first instance. The Government will consult publicly to we need to continue consulting to get them right, so I gather views on further details of the due diligence welcome further discussions as we develop the detail requirements, including on reporting. on the secondary legislation. Turning to the noble Baroness’s Amendment 265AA, These due diligence measures show, as I said earlier, I assure her that the Government are committed to that the UK is a world leader and is serious about ensuring our regulations are as effective as possible in tackling illegal deforestation in our supply chains. But order to have the greatest impact on illegal deforestation. I reiterate that deforestation is a global issue that There may be cases where a business may take all requires global collaboration. We need a shift in the reasonable steps as part of its due diligence exercise entire global market, if we are to protect the world’s but, for reasons beyond its control, may breach the precious forests. As COP 26 co-president, the UK has prohibition. This amendment would mean that there launched the forest, agriculture and commodity trade would be no defence available for businesses in such a dialogue, which I mentioned earlier; we will work with case, which we do not think is proportionate or right. other Governments to discuss and agree an inclusive After all, businesses would have to have undertaken vision and road map to take actions globally on forests, due diligence to discover the breach in the first place. agriculture and the commodity trade. In the last few 1693 Environment Bill [LORDS] Environment Bill 1694

[LORD GOLDSMITH OF RICHMOND PARK] (c) publish a timetable for the phased introduction of weeks alone, that process has already yielded results the provisions under paragraphs (a) and (b), the beyond what we expected. I thank noble Lords for final phase of which must be implemented within their amendments on this matter and ask my noble three years from the day on which this Act is passed; friend Lord Randall to withdraw his. (d) publish plans, within two years from the day on which this Act is passed, following a consultation, Lord Randall of Uxbridge (Con) [V]: My Lords, to extend remote electronic monitoring systems with cameras to all motorised vessels of whatever nationality before I start I should make two apologies. One is for fishing within territorial waters and the UK Exclusive the rapid introduction of my amendments at the beginning Economic Zone. of this group; I wanted to ensure that everybody in (2) Regulations under this section are subject to the this debate got a fair chance and that we were able to affirmative procedure. finish at a reasonable time—if you can call this a (3) In this section, “fish activities” has the meaning given by reasonable time. I am grateful to all those who supported section 52 of the Fisheries Act 2020.” them; I am also grateful to those who tabled their own Member’s explanatory statement amendments. We have had a very important debate. The amendment mandates the use of remote electronic monitoring My second apology is to my noble friend the Minister. (REM) on all fishing vessels above 10 metres in length that fish in I am trying to squeeze a little more out of the Government, UK waters in order to accurately monitor marine environmental but he personally and the Government deserve a huge data and requires plans to be published to extend REM to all amount of praise for these pioneering measures. We vessels. should be incredibly proud of them and, as he said, we cannot do it on our own. To be at the forefront of this Lord Teverson (LD): My Lords, I owe the Committee is tremendously exciting. Of course, we always want a an apology, as I tried to change this amendment from bit more, but I could recognise, even though I am not one group to another—the first group we did today—but there in person, the passion my noble friend has for then I managed to de-group it totally, so it is my fault this issue—as do other noble Lords in the Chamber that noble Lords are all still here. I apologise for that. and elsewhere. I hope we will see further things perhaps This is a serious issue. It is often said that we know happen over the summer, but I beg leave to withdraw less about our oceans than we do about the surface of my amendment for now. Mars. I do not know whether that is completely true, but there is certainly a strong element of truth about Amendment 260B withdrawn. it. We lack information about the ecology, biodiversity, Amendment 260C not moved. quantity and types of species there are in our waters. Yet, unlike Mars, which I think has at least three Clause 109 agreed. rovers trundling slowly over its surface at the moment, we have thousands of fishing vessels sampling the Amendments 261 and 262 not moved. ecology of our oceans every day. The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Finlay I was very interested to receive communications of Llandaff) (CB): We now come to Amendment 262A. from the Shetland Fishermen’s Association a few days Anyone wishing to press this amendment to a Division ago. I know that Shetland is clearly in Scotland, must make that clear in debate. although it sometimes sees itself as independent of it, and that this is an English Bill, but I will take this as an example because one of the things it is complaining Amendment 262A about is the data on fish coming from ICES—the Moved by Lord Teverson International Council for the Exploration of the Sea. 262A: After Clause 109, insert the following new Clause— We all know ICES; it is the key data provider for us “Collection of marine data and the European Union in setting quotas, TACs and (1) The Secretary of State must— that whole area. To quote Simon Collins, executive (a) by regulations provide that all vessels over 10 metres officer of the Shetland Fishermen’s Association, on in length, and of whatever nationality, fishing within the ICES recommendations about changes of TACs in territorial waters and the UK Exclusive Economic the North Sea and off the west coast: Zone must be fitted with remote electronic monitoring “These numbers bear no relation to what our members are systems and cameras for the purposes of— seeing out on the fishing grounds every day … With such wild (i) full and accurate documentation and data collection swings in both directions a regular occurrence in recent years, it is of fish activities, and bycatch, so far as these affect clear that ICES needs to take a good hard look at the process and biodiversity and sustainability; and consider whether its modelling is still relevant.” (ii) monitoring compliance with fish activities, bycatch I have really good news for the Shetland fishermen: and other marine management regulations so far as using remote electronic monitoring with the help of it affects biodiversity and sustainability; artificial intelligence and machine learning, and very (b) by regulations provide that all British vessels fishing cheap technology, we can have live data of what is in outside the UK Exclusive Economic Zone must be fitted with remote electronic monitoring systems the ocean, what is being caught and what is discarded. and cameras for the purposes of— We can really firm up on the data on our marine (i) full and accurate documentation and data collection environment. It has probably escaped the Minister’s of fish activities and bycatch, so far as these affect notice that I put down a similar amendment with the biodiversity and sustainability; and noble Lord, Lord Krebs, to the Fisheries Bill—or he (ii) monitoring compliance with fish activities, bycatch has perhaps forgotten. One of the things which we and other marine management regulations so far as emphasised there was not the control aspect of fisheries it affects biodiversity and sustainability; regulation, but the fact that this provided plentiful 1695 Environment Bill [12 JULY 2021] Environment Bill 1696 hard data about fisheries, the marine environment and We discussed remote electronic monitoring when everything that happens to be caught. That is why I considering the Fisheries Bill, and your Lordships brought this amendment back into this Bill, because it were able to get the Minister to put a firm commitment is equally—if not more—an environmental issue as in support of it on the record. The noble Lord, much as a fisheries management one. That is why this Lord Gardiner of Kimble, stated: amendment is important. “The Government are clear that we will be consulting on Following Royal Assent to the Fisheries Act, I increasing the use of REM in the first half of 2021, with was delighted that Defra went out and undertook implementation following that. I am not in a position to give a precise date today for when this will be implemented, but I can two consultations around remote electronic monitoring. absolutely say—and I want to put this on the record—that the I would be very interested to hear from the Minister Government are absolutely seized of the importance of REM.”— what the responses were, and when the Government [Official Report, 12/11/20; col. 1174.] are going to move those forward. I congratulate them That is great, isn’t it? We could all be confident that on moving this process further forward. It is the way this would go in the Bill. to sustain fisheries stocks, and it is the way, more importantly, to be clear and have hard data rather Unfortunately, things do not seem to be progressing than the opaque and fuzzy data which we have on our particularly quickly. The latest update I could find on fisheries at the moment, and our marine biodiversity the GOV.UK website, from 7 May, says: and ecology more broadly. Again, here we can actually “We’ve considered all the submissions and will continue to use lead, and in such a way that all those nations that want the evidence provided to inform further thinking on the use of remote electronic monitoring in England. We’ll engage more with to enter with their fishing vessels into our EEZ and stakeholders in the near future around the topics that were our waters can be told, “You must do the same thing”. highlighted in this call for evidence.” For those foreign vessels, most of them from the This language does not reflect the previous enthusiasm European Union, but also Norway and other Nordic of the noble Lord, Lord Gardiner of Kimble, so can islands, we can actually start the process, and have the Minister here today please confirm that the others start it as well. Government remain This is a truly important way of moving forward. I “absolutely seized of the importance of REM”? welcome the fact that the Government took on these Can he please give details of the Government’s thinking consultations. It would be a huge shame if they got no that has been informed by the consultation? It would further. I would be very interested to hear from the be wonderful to know how long it will be before this Minister what the Government’s plans are for remote thinking turns into action. Given the long lead-in electronic monitoring. With this technology, we can times for retrofitting all the existing fishing vessels, the really understand what is going on in our oceans. I beg sooner the Government can move forward on this and to move. articulate a specific monitoring scheme, the better. We need to embrace this technology as a matter of urgency. Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP): I begin by If the Government continue to drag their feet, it thanking the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, for tabling would seem that the noble Lord, Lord Gardiner of this amendment, which I have signed. It is the latest Kimble, has been left hanging out to dry. move in his long and valuable campaign for the adoption of remote electronic monitoring of fishing vessels. I Debate on Amendment 262A adjourned. do not blame him at all for our being here late at night; I blame the Government. If they had written a better Bill, it would not have attracted 300 amendments and House resumed. we would not still be here after seven days, with an eighth day in prospect. House adjourned at 11.52 pm.

GC 415 Arrangement of Business[12 JULY 2021] Medical Devices Regulations 2021 GC 416

Grand Committee Northern Ireland, and will operate alongside the EU medical devices regulation and this instrument on the Monday 12 July 2021 regulation of medical devices and active implantable medical devices. 2.30 pm I shall give some background. This instrument achieves The Grand Committee met in a hybrid proceeding. the Government’scommitment to align Northern Ireland with Great Britain, where permitted, in four areas. Arrangement of Business First, it implements national adjustments for Northern Announcement Ireland in areas where the EU medical devices regulation grants member states the ability to make national 2.30 pm policy decisions. This has been done in a way that will align with policies in place in Great Britain. Secondly, The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Healy it sets out the fee structures that keep fees aligned with of Primrose Hill) (Lab): My Lords, the hybrid Grand those applied in Great Britain. Thirdly, it sets out the Committee will now begin. Some Members are here in enforcement regime for activity and violations under person,othersareparticipatingremotely,butallMembers the EU medical devices regulation in Northern Ireland. will be treated equally. I ask Members in the Room to Lastly, it makes amendments to existing regulations, respect social distancing. If the capacity of the Committee to take account of the application of the EU medical Room is exceeded or other safety requirements are devices regulation in Northern Ireland. breached, I will immediately adjourn the Committee. If there is a Division in the House, the Committee will I will first describe areas of national flexibility adjourn for five minutes. where this instrument makes provision to change default positions under the EU medical devices regulation to maintain Northern Ireland policy with that of Medical Devices (Northern Ireland Great Britain. The Government currently permit the Protocol) Regulations 2021 remanufacturing of single-use devices, which the EU Considered in Grand Committee refers to as reprocessing, so long as the remanufacturer adheres to strict requirements. The default position of 2.30 pm the EU medical devices regulation is not to permit Moved by Lord Bethell remanufacturing unless there is national legislation in place to support it. This instrument does just that. That the Grand Committee do consider the Medical This means that the remanufacturing of single-use Devices (Northern Ireland Protocol) Regulations devices can continue to take place in Northern Ireland, 2021. as well as in Great Britain, so long as requirements under the relevant legislation are followed. TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Bethell) (Con): My The instrument also introduces provisions so that Lords, the statutory instrument that we are discussing the MHRA can continue requiring custom-made devices, today relates to the regulations for medical devices ranging from dental appliances to orthopaedic moulds, within Northern Ireland. It reflects the application of to be registered before being placed on the Northern EU regulation 2017/745 on medical devices, which I Ireland market. Provisions are also contained in this willhereafterrefertoastheEUmedicaldevicesregulation, instrument that uphold our national requirements for under the terms of the Northern Ireland protocol. As clinical investigations, which are crucial for ensuring noble Lords will be aware, the protocol agrees to that the safety of participants is protected. They do so continue applying certain EU rules in Northern Ireland by maintaining the MHRA’s ability to authorise clinical to recognise the unique status of Northern Ireland investigations for all risk classes of medical devices within the UK and to uphold the Belfast/Good Friday before they can commence. Furthermore, it upholds agreement.Itisimportanttorememberthatthisinstrument the requirement for all clinical investigations for custom- does not apply the EU medical devices regulation made devices to be subject to MHRA assessment. The within Northern Ireland. That legislation took automatic Government remain committed to delivering effect in Northern Ireland from 26 May this year, improvements to patient safety, and this instrument under the terms of the Northern Ireland protocol. means that we can respond proactively to any concerns. The EU medical devices regulation contains some By amending the Consumer Rights Act 2015 and flexibility areas, where states have the discretion to the Medicines and Medical Devices Act 2021, this make policy decisions and adjustments. This instrument instrument provides the MHRA and district councils therefore makes provisions to apply in Northern Ireland in Northern Ireland with inspection powers and powers where it serves to align Northern Ireland policy with to serve enforcement notices for breaches of the EU Great Britain. This is to deliver the Government’s medical devices regulation within Northern Ireland. commitment to the pragmatic implementation of the This will ensure that the MHRA has the enforcement Northern Ireland protocol. In creating the provisions powers it needs to ensure patient safety is prioritised in this instrument, we are minimising the impact on and high standards are maintained for the people of economic operators and the public in Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland. as the Northern Ireland protocol pledges. The MHRA charges fees to cover the costs associated The Medical Devices Regulations 2002, hereafter with certain aspects of the regulation of medical devices. referred to as the 2002 regulations, will continue to be This instrument details fees which may be charged for the relevant regulations for in vitro diagnostics in activity under the EU medical devices regulation in GC 417 Medical Devices Regulations 2021[LORDS] Medical Devices Regulations 2021 GC 418

[LORD BETHELL] 2.39 pm Northern Ireland, keeping them identical to those Lord Empey (UUP) [V]: My Lords, in his introduction, charged in Great Britain under the 2002 regulations my noble friend the Minister talked about upholding for similar services. This upholds the Government’s the protocol and upholding the Belfast agreement. I commitment to ensure that there are no disadvantages say to my noble friend that the protocol, and what is to economic operators in Northern Ireland as a result flowing from it, including what we have before us of the Northern Ireland protocol. This instrument today, drives a stake through the heart of the agreement does not introduce any fees for new requirements because it breaches one of the fundamental principles— under the EU medical devices regulation. but that is an argument for another day. Finally, this instrument makes technical amendments to other legislation, including the 2002 regulations, to The Minister also referred to enforcement regulations. reflect the application of the EU medical devices What we are trying to do here is to circumvent the regulation within Northern Ireland. This will ensure imposition of rules and regulations on these devices the regulatory landscape operates effectively in Northern that will be made by the European Union and ratified Ireland. Officials in the Northern Ireland Executive by the European Parliament as we move forward. We have been kept informed of the progress of this instrument will have no say or role in any of that—neither will the and I am hugely grateful for their continued collaborative Minister—so we are trying to pretend that we are not approach. As the nature of the changes in this instrument simply rule-takers here. We are trying to indicate that are technical in many instances, the impacts of the we are doing something that will have an impact and instrument do not meet the threshold for impact minimise the damage. That is basically what this is about. assessments, hence these are not provided. I would like to know from the Minister what the In conclusion, this instrument upholds the Prime future will hold. The United Kingdom and the European Minister’scommitment to the Northern Ireland protocol Union basically start off on the same page, because we and to minimise the impact on the activities of economic spent 43 years as part of that union and were involved operators and the public in Northern Ireland. The in all the standards that were set up until this point, significance of our public healthcare system has never but those will diverge over time. I want to know from been clearer than during the Covid-19 outbreak, and the Minister what his and the Government’s approach this instrument will ensure that the UK’s exceptional will be if, over time, these regulations start to diverge. standards of safety are maintained within Northern We saw on the vaccine issue that the European Ireland. This is something we must support. I commend regulatory regime operated at a much slower pace the regulations to the Committee. than our own, here in the United Kingdom. What would be the implications in future if devices were The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness conceived and made available in Great Britain, under Healy of Primrose Hill) (Lab): The noble Lord, Lord Hunt whatever rules might apply, but had not been accepted of Kings Heath, has withdrawn, so I call the next in the European Union? Would people living in Northern speaker, the noble Lord, Lord McColl of Dulwich. Ireland not get access to such devices in future? That is at the core of our concerns over this and a whole range 2.37 pm of other items that will arise from the protocol. Lord McColl of Dulwich (Con) [V]: My Lords, as there are more than half a million of these devices on 2.43 pm the market, it is understandable that effective regulation Lord Lansley (Con): My Lords, I am grateful to my should be in place and workable. It is also clear that noble friend the Minister for his clear introduction to most of us will need one of these devices at some time these regulations. I want to take the opportunity to in our life. It is to be hoped that these regulations will comment on just one aspect of these arrangements: give patients more information and choice, and that the processes for a conformity assessment on medical they will benefit from more up-to-date therapies. I ask devices placed on the market in Northern Ireland. the Minister this: what will be the effective way of A European conformity assessment, a CE mark, is seeking expert opinions on the wisdom of a proposed to continue to be recognised in the Great Britain new operation that does not necessarily involve a market until 30 June 2023. Likewise, the certificates medical device? It would be helpful to have a second issued by EU notified bodies will continue to be opinion on whether it is likely to be feasible and safe. recognised until that date. It seems to me that, if one is As there are often notoriously long delays in obtaining a Northern Ireland-based manufacturer of a medical answers from official bodies, and we are talking about device—the Explanatory Memorandum estimates that regulations now, has any thought been given to placing there are some 300 such businesses—for the next two a regulation to require answers within a certain time? years the CE mark should be a sufficient basis for There has been discussion about a robust financial placing a product on the market, whether in the EU, compensation mechanism to ensure that patients are Northern Ireland or Great Britain. I would be grateful dealt with fairly and justly for the damage caused by if my noble friend were in a position to confirm what I defective devices and by their inappropriate use in say or correct me. certain parts of the body. For instance, the mesh which If a Great Britain manufacturer is meeting EU caused so much damage in operations for incontinence requirements then, from 2023, it will require a UK is used widely and safely in hernia operations. Could conformity assessment, but this in itself will not enable the Minister tell the Committee who will operate these its product to be placed on the market in Northern compensation mechanisms? Who will decide whether Ireland—hence the references in these regulations to compensation is justified and how much to award? the “UK(NI) indication”, which appears to become of GC 419 Medical Devices Regulations 2021[12 JULY 2021] Medical Devices Regulations 2021 GC 420 greater significance after 1 July 2023. From that time system for medical devices and not the UK one. This onwards, British manufacturers will be required to statutory instrument is necessary to try to meet the adopt dual marking and conformity assessment through challenges and practical applications of the EU directive two systems, with the attendant cost and complexity. applying directly to Northern Ireland. Whatever the Obviously, the same is true for non-EU third-country mitigations, it would be better in every sense if Northern suppliers. Ireland were simply in the same regime as the rest of the United Kingdom. Most medical devices, and At the heart of this problem is the failure of the £600 million-worth of medicines, are brought into trade and co-operation agreement to provide for mutual Northern Ireland every year, 98% of which are from recognition of conformity assessments, given the simple Great Britain. As has been mentioned, there are 300 fact that, as my noble friend Lord Empey adverted to, operators of medical devices in Northern Ireland affected our MHRA undertook 40% of the most significant by this SI. assessments in the EU. We do not have divergent technical standards; what we have, unfortunately, are Following up on what the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, divergent political priorities. I personally do not blame referred to, can the Minister confirm that the CE Theresa May’s negotiators for our failure to secure marking will be required indefinitely for devices placed that mutual recognition. on the Northern Ireland market by manufacturers, unlike in the rest of the United Kingdom? Can he One option now would be to roll forward our confirm that the somewhat bizarre UK(NI) marking recognition of European conformity assessments—the will be needed if a UK-notified body undertakes third- CE marking—beyond 2023. Frankly, I do not expect party conformity assessment? Can he also confirm that to happen, because it would undermine the role of that, to place a device on the Northern Ireland market, the MHRA and British notified bodies, but can my Great Britain manufacturers will need to appoint an noble friend explain what the position will be for EU or Northern Ireland-based authorised representative? Northern Ireland manufacturers post 1 July 2023? The complexity and extra bureaucracy of all of this, Given the principle of unfettered access to the UK and the cost to the taxpayer, need to be called out and market, will they be able to sell in Britain on the basis quantified. of their CE mark or will they require dual marking? The applicability of the EU regime in this area adds This regulation makes provision for the UK(NI) not one jot to the safety or security of the people of indication, which is useful for UK manufacturers using Northern Ireland. Having Northern Ireland under the a previous EU approval and for British devices to UK regime for medical devices would not harm or access the Northern Ireland market, but it seems to me endanger the EU single market in any way. The whole no more than a face-saving approach to cover the basis of this SI is unnecessary and undemocratic. harsh reality that we are going to put our highly Finally, the noble Lord, Lord Frost, has indicated successful medical devices sector through significant that the EU is yet to respond to 12 papers tabled by additional cost, disruption and bureaucracy. the UK Government. Can the Minister indicate in his response whether any of them relate to medicines or 2.46 pm medical devices? Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP) [V]: My Lords, I 2.50 pm begin by thanking the Minister for his clear explanation of the purposes of this secondary legislation. The Lord Bhatia (Non-Afl) [V]: My Lords, the changes statutory instrument is necessary,of course, only because that the EU MDR introduces will affect medical device of the Northern Ireland protocol, as the Minister economic operators in Northern Ireland, estimated to made clear. That protocol means that EU law is applied be about 300, and any prospective UK notified bodies. to Northern Ireland across a wide range of matters This instrument does not implement the EU MDR without any elected Member of the Stormont Assembly itself, but updates the statute book to allow us to or this Parliament having any vote on the matter. implement the EU MDR effectively and addresses On Friday, in evidence to the Northern Ireland areas of national decision to align with policy that Assembly, the noble Lord, Lord Frost, said that applies in the rest of the UK. Specifically, these areas of national decision allow for the continued practice “you need to have broad consensus” of allowing the reprocessing of single-use devices, if to make the protocol work between now and four reprocessors adhere to the requirements of an original years’ time, manufacturer. The instrument will also give the MHRA “and the fact we don’t have it is what worries us so much.” powers to serve enforcement notices for breaches of He has also said previously, in speaking to the Northern the EU MDR. Ireland Affairs Select Committee on 16 June, that The instrument will correct current legislation where “the protocol depends on consent. It is very difficult to operate it required, introduce relevant enforcement provisions if there is not consent and willingness from one segment of and outline the fees structure for Northern Ireland. It Northern Ireland opinion”. will introduce provisions in areas of flexibility allowed I am sure the Minister will confirm his agreement with for under the EU MDR, to allow Northern Ireland to his ministerial colleague on this vital issue. continue to align with Great Britain policy,where possible. So we have before us this afternoon a situation In addition to the 2002 regulations, the instrument where the EU regulation on medical devices entered also makes amendments to the following retained into force in Northern Ireland directly on 26 May, and EU law: namely the Blood Safety and Quality Northern Ireland is now subject to the EU regulatory Regulations 2005, to include a reference to the EU GC 421 Medical Devices Regulations 2021[LORDS] Medical Devices Regulations 2021 GC 422

[LORD BHATIA] want to see streamlined processes with no impediments MDR alongside the reference to the 2002 regulations; to the supply of medical devices into Northern Ireland and the human tissue regulations 2007, to include a or to those that are currently under construction. reference to the EU MDR in order to maintain the There are about 500,000 medical devices, ranging from scope of the regulations. sticking plasters to dental implants to hip replacements, I believe that this instrument will protect the safety so they have many forms and functions. We are trying of medical devices that will be used in the UK and to achieve pragmatic solutions under the protocol to Northern Ireland. ensure that there are no impediments to their supply. I have several questions for the Minister. Does the 2.52 pm existing legislation on medicines and medical devices, Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl) [V]: My Lords, I thank which was approved in Parliament last year, have the Minister for his explanation. In moving this SI, he corresponding legislation in Northern Ireland to ensure made a very brave attempt almost to make it seem as if that people with particular mesh problems will have a it is terribly normal and wonderful and no one should resolution and see an improvement to their health? be worried about anything in it. In fact, he has made Furthermore, on the protocol, what discussions are the best of a bad job because, as the noble Lords, taking place in the joint committee and the specialised Lord Empey and Lord Dodds, said, the reality is that committee with the EU on the exportation issues this SI is not something we should even be thinking of relating to the transfer of medical devices and medicines, discussing, let alone supporting. to ensure that they will all continue to be supplied post I accept that some of the moves in it are to make December 2021? For example, the Royal College of things a little better for the 300 or so device manufacturers Podiatry and the Ethical Medicines Industry Group in Northern Ireland, and to make it seem—as the are seeking mutual recognition agreements for the noble Lord, Lord Empey,said, it is almost a pretence—as supply of those medicines and medical devices post though there is nothing wrong with what is happening. 2021 as part of the protocol. What progress has been It is particularly sad to say today—and I hope that made in this regard? What evidence is there of working everyone has had a good Twelfth of July, at the together to arrive at a long-term solution that avoids commemoration and celebrations going on in Northern unnecessary regulatory complexity and duplication? Ireland—that we are in a situation where the protocol Given that the risk of medicines leaking into the is now dividing Northern Ireland from the rest of the EU single market from Northern Ireland in an unregulated United Kingdom, more and more. What we have seen manner is very slim, an agreement that permits medicines today will be the first of many inevitable divergences, licensed for use in GB to be supplied to Northern not just in this area of medical apparatus and medical Ireland only without additional checks would deliver issues but throughout, because we are left in the on both sides’ needs. What steps are being made in this situation where the European Union is going to make regard by UK and EU negotiators? those laws. Do the common frameworks on blood safety and As has been said by many of us, over and again, quality, on organs, tissues and cells, and on public and as has been said today by the noble Lords, health intersect with the protocol? What pressure can Lord Dodds and Lord Empey, this is completely be brought to bear on the Northern Ireland Executive undemocratic. No one has been asked about this. to sign off on these common frameworks, which deal From 21 May, we have simply had to take what the with technical and policy divergence between Whitehall European Union has said on this issue. Whether it is and the devolved Administrations? I look forward to right, wrong, good or bad is not the issue; the issue is the Minister’s responses to these issues on this important one of basic democracy and consent. It is even in the matter for the people of Northern Ireland. Explanatory Memorandum, which talks about allowing “Northern Ireland to continue to align with Great Britain policy 2.59 pm where possible.” Baroness Brinton (LD) [V]: My Lords, I thank the Who decides “where possible”? It certainly will not be Minister for a non-urgent statutory instrument that the people of Northern Ireland; it will be when and was tabled on 16 June and is being debated at an where it is permitted under the EU. appropriate time, after MPs and Peers have had the We are now a little colony of the European Union opportunity to look at it in detail. I am sure I am not for certain regulations within the single market. The alone in looking forward to more of these in future. I reality of this has to be accepted by the Government. also thank him for his helpful explanation at the start This will be one of many SIs; I am not prepared to of this debate. simply nod them through in future. The Government These regulations set out the mechanism to adjust will have to face up to the fact that, if they try to nod legislation to ensure that the use of medical devices them through, many of us will vote against them. We complies with both the EU’s and Great Britain’s will not win, but the reality is that we have to show the regulations. As the noble Lord, Lord McColl, said, Government that what they are doing is undemocratic most people in Northern Ireland are likely to need to and not in the interests of the United Kingdom. use one of these devices during their lives, so it is important that we get it right. He also referred to the 2.56 pm problems with certain devices covered in the Cumberlege Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Non-Afl) [V]: My review. Can I further refine his question to the Minister? Lords, I thank the Minister for his explanation of Which Minister will be responsible for the delivery of these regulations. I accept what the statutory instrument the Cumberlege review in Northern Ireland? Will it be is intended to do. However, I have some questions, as I the Minister in Stormont or the Minister in Westminster? GC 423 Medical Devices Regulations 2021[12 JULY 2021] Medical Devices Regulations 2021 GC 424

Even though it has been made necessary by the 3.04 pm Northern Ireland protocol, this SI appears to have Baroness Thornton (Lab): I thank the Minister for been come to sensibly, solving the problem without introducing these regulations and for the opportunity the noble Lord, Lord Frost, or the Prime Minister to debate them. This debate takes place in the context immediately blaming the EU. That has to be encouraging of the Northern Ireland protocol, a protocol signed by because an enormous amount of detail has to be this Government and now readily disowned by the sorted out. The noble Lords, Lord Empey and Lord very people who agreed to it. When the noble Lord, Dodds, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Hoey and Lord Frost, says that it is not right to view the protocol Lady Ritchie, set out their frustrations with these as a definitive text, that does not reflect well on our regulations as an inevitable necessity resulting from country, its Government and the people who signed it the Northern Ireland protocol. From these Benches—over at the time, said that it was excellent and denied that the past three years, at least—we have warned about the it would create a border in the Irish Sea. It is a bit rich problems of what became the Northern Ireland protocol of the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, to protest, given and the position that it would leave Northern Ireland her role in getting us to where we are. in, which we deplore.However,given that this Government pushed through the Northern Ireland protocol with However, I agree with the noble Baroness, the withdrawal Act, we believe that the issues with the Lady Brinton, that this is an attempt to find a way implementation of the protocol will be solved only by through on the important matter of medical devices. the EU and the UK working together to find a solution. The SI addresses the fact that, although under the Northern Ireland protocol medical devices regulations It appears that this SI might be one of the first to are fully applied in Northern Ireland, the MHRA take that route. This is at least better than the noble remains the Province’s regulator; there therefore needs Lord, Lord Frost, and the Secretary of State for to be provisions for enforcement, fees et cetera so that Northern Ireland, Brandon Lewis, going to the Irish those elements of MDR that allow for national press just after 21 June to accuse the EU of adopting a decision—such as on the reprocessing of single-use theological approach to the protocol that is frozen in devices, custom-made devices and so on—are consistent time, only a few days after the European Commission across the UK. had announced its proposals for, among other things, What does this mean for people in Northern Ireland? medicines entering NI to be exceptionally regulated by What impact will there be if the EMA and MHRA the UK. That is a step forward, despite the concerns depart markedly from each other’s regulatory regimes, raised by the Northern Ireland Peers. and what would that mean for businesses? At the moment, you need a CE mark to go to market, as least This SI lays the pathway for current legislation to as long as the Northern Ireland protocol holds. That is be amended, including the creation of a criminal potentially advantageous for NI patients versus GB offence. Can the Minister say what scrutiny there will ones, as the vast majority of products will be CE be by Parliament of this specific offence nearer the marked and will continue to be so. However, as the time? The Explanatory Memorandum makes it plain ABPI has said, there are 600,000 medical devices that this is not approved in the EU and, at the moment, they are all “to address a deficiency in retained EU law” available in Great Britain. Surely the test of the new UK regulations will be how many of them are still but because of the withdrawal Act, as has been mentioned. available in three, five or 10 years’ time. I hope that the It is good to have that confirmed, although some Minister will be able to address those issues. detail is about the UK elements of its parallel regulation. I seems to me that the final decision concerning the We are just going to have to become used to this, but I availability of a product would ultimately be a matter have some questions about the fees for applications for the EU. Is it the case that, for those products and inspections. authorised under the decentralised procedure by one Paragraph 12.4 of the Explanatory Memorandum member state acting as a reference for another member says that “fees for services” will be state, the MHRA would be able to suspend the use of a product only if one of the 27 member states had “kept on par with those charged in Great Britain, despite there triggered a review of that product? being additional resource requirements to carry out the work I have a couple of other points. I could see no … under the EU MDR. The fees will therefore be below the cost mention of in vitro diagnostic medical devices. Will recovery level.” they come as another statutory instrument? I would Which Government will bear the cost of that extra be grateful if the Minister could clarify that. Can he work if it cannot be recovered from the manufacturers? tell the Committee what plans he has to update the Will it be the UK Government or the Northern Ireland House on a regular basis on the supply and regulation Assembly? I hope the answer is the UK Government of medicines and medical devices in Northern Ireland because the Northern Ireland Assembly should not to ensure that regulatory alignment and mitigation have its budget penalised because of the Prime Minister’s against adverse consequences are undertaken? decision to support the Northern Ireland protocol. In Finally, on enforcement, the instrument will also Regulation 12(1)(a) of the SI, in relation to “Prior give the MHRA powers to serve enforcement notices authorisation of clinical investigations by the Secretary for breaches of the EU MDR. How many people of State”, will the Secretary of State have these are these enforcement measures expected to affect? powers elsewhere in the UK or does this relate only to Manufacturers will need to take a number of steps Northern Ireland? to ensure that their goods can still be sold after the GC 425 Medical Devices Regulations 2021[LORDS] Medical Devices Regulations 2021 GC 426

[BARONESS THORNTON] Act 2021 provides the powers for future regulations 2023 deadline, as noble Lords mentioned. What that have patient safety at their heart, and we are discussions have the Government had with the sector? reflecting on the lessons from the Cumberlege review Can the Minister confirm that the threshold to obtain for future regulations. We will consider questions on the UKCA certification mark will largely be the same the responses. as that for the CE mark? The points made by the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, 3.08 pm on the 300 manufacturers are extremely well made. I reassure him that we are committed to implementing Lord Bethell (Con): My Lords, as a responsible the protocol, but we must do so in a way that is Government, it is absolutely imperative that we deliver sensible,balanced and attuned to the unique circumstances on the Northern Ireland protocol and do so pragmatically of Northern Ireland. As the noble Lord has already to minimise the impact on the activities of economic noted, my noble friend Lord Frost and the Secretary operators and the public in Northern Ireland. As was of State for Northern Ireland have recently made intimated by the noble Baronesses, Lady Thornton public statements on the Northern Ireland protocol. and Lady Brinton, we are trying to find a way through. The Government are carefully considering next steps I believe that this instrument achieves that and, in and will set out their approach to Parliament before doing so, ensures that high standards for patient safety the Summer Recess. are maintained throughout the United Kingdom. I assure the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, and other I reassure the noble Lords, Lord Dodds and noble Lords who asked similar questions that the Lord Empey, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Hoey Government are fully committed to a system of medical and Lady Ritchie, that the Government are committed device regulation that prioritises safety and safeguards to adopting a pragmatic approach to regulatory public health. As such, the department has sought to divergence, seeking to minimise the impacts wherever minimise any disruption to patients and industry by it is possible to do so. I cannot emphasise enough that providing consistency in policies where that is possible the changes contained in this instrument are essential and ensuring a functioning statute book for the regulation to delivering on that commitment. The instrument of medical devices in Northern Ireland. does so by providing consistency between regulations My noble friend Lord McColl asked about an in Northern Ireland and Great Britain where we are advisory body. No formal advisory body is currently not constrained by the EU medical devices regulation. planned, but we will take his suggestion on board. The instrument also ensures that when a medical NHS Digital is working with industry on a surgical device complies with the EU medical devices regulation devices register and, as such, is extremely engaged and is a qualifying Northern Ireland good, it can be with industry in the manner to which he alludes. On placed on the market in Great Britain without needing the matter of deadlines, I agree with him about the to meet any further regulatory requirements. importance of high service levels, but that is best left The noble Lord, Lord Empey, asked about future for management, not for secondary legislation. regulation. I reassure him that for a two and a half Compensation is covered in a large number of fora, year period after the end of the transition period, including the courts, and is best left there. devices compliant with EU medical devices regulation I reassure my noble friend Lord Lansley about the and EU in vitro diagnostics regulation can be placed Government’s commitment to unfettered access. As on the Great Britain market as part of the UK’s set out in the Government’s Command Paper of 20 May acceptance of EU-regulated CE goods. 2020, the UK’s approach to the Northern Ireland protocol ensures unfettered access to Great Britain for In answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, Northern Ireland businesses. It protects the territorial the UK will be consulting shortly on the future of integrity of the UK by safeguarding Northern Ireland’s Great Britain’s medical device regulations which will place in the UK’s customs territory and keeps goods include a review of the elements of EU medical devices flowing between Great Britain and Northern Ireland, regulation and EU in vitro diagnostic devices regulation applying measures that help to maintain food supplies which benefit patient safety and patient access. Work and, of course, the flow of medicines. This includes on the future Great Britain regulatory regime will access for medical devices from Northern Ireland explore any risks around regulatory divergence between businesses that are CE or CE-and-UKNI marked. The Great Britain and Northern Ireland. CE or CE-and-UKNI marking applies to Northern To the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, as I said in Ireland now and after June 2023. my opening remarks, by keeping the fees in Northern My noble friend Lord McColl asked about mesh. Ireland the same as those charged for equivalent activities We wholeheartedly commit to demonstrating to the in Great Britain under the 2002 regulations,this instrument patients and families who have shared their experiences ensures that there are no financial deterrents which during the Cumberlege review, and to anyone else who may cause any disadvantage for Northern Ireland has suffered, that we have learned from them and are manufacturers or those carrying out clinical investigations. changing and improving because of what they have told us. The SI focuses on implementing the EU By way of summing up, I thank noble Lords for medical devices regulation in Northern Ireland under their valuable contributions to this debate. I reassure the specific powers of the European Union (Withdrawal) all noble Lords that as a Government we are fully Act 2018, which would not extend to making changes committed to ensuring that patient safety in all parts to the regulations to respond to my noble friend Lady of the UK is prioritised and that high standards are Cumberlege’sreview.The Medicines and Medical Devices maintained within Northern Ireland. I am enormously GC 427 Medical Devices Regulations 2021[12 JULY 2021] Medical Devices Regulations 2021 GC 428 grateful for the support shown by many noble Lords from use in film and sports to huge potential markets for these measures, and I commend these draft regulations in events and workplaces. We estimate that around to the Committee. 97 million LFD kits are reaching our market each week, and this is increasing. Motion agreed. It is therefore clear that the quality of the tests available is critical, yet I know at first hand, through The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness our stringent procurement of tests, that more than Healy of Primrose Hill) (Lab): The Grand Committee 75% of tests that we considered failed. Some tests were stands adjourned until 3.35 pm. I remind Members to up to 17% less effective than they claimed. That means sanitise their desks and chairs before leaving the Room. that, in the real world, a highly infectious person 3.15 pm would be significantly more likely to get a false negative. These tests do not work in the real world and can in Sitting suspended. fact harm public health, causing people to spread the disease in the false belief that they are uninfected. Bad Arrangement of Business tests will increase mortality; I will not stand by and let that happen. Even meeting the low bar of CE marking Announcement has proved too much for some. The MHRA has taken 3.35 pm action against 80 companies, including seizing approximately 48,000 non-compliant tests. The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness There is clear evidence of the risk that businesses Healy of Primrose Hill) (Lab): My Lords, the hybrid and individuals can buy tests that are, frankly, not Grand Committee will now resume. Some Members good enough. I will not settle for low-quality CE-marked are here in person and others participating remotely, tests that manipulate their instructions for use or but all Members will be treated equally. I ask Members construct their own rigged validation. I will not have in the Room to respect social distancing. If the capacity them for the NHS and I do not want them mis-sold to of the Committee Room is exceeded or other safety my fellow citizens. We must act now. I have already requirements are breached, I will immediately adjourn regulated the more mature services side of the market the Committee. If there is a Division in the House, the through accreditation, but we must close any loopholes Committee will adjourn for five minutes. The time on the goods side by regulating the quality of the tests limit for the next debate is one hour. themselves. I know it is frustrating for the producer of any Medical Devices (Coronavirus Test Device high-quality test to see its product lost in a sea of Approvals) (Amendment) Regulations 2021 lower-performing tests, often at lower prices, as some Considered in Grand Committee rivals have not put in the work to assure their tests and ensure the sensitivity and specificity to be useful in the 3.35 pm real world. We want to support businesses developing Moved by Lord Bethell quality tests through a rigorous validation process. This will set those quality tests apart. That the Grand Committee do consider the Medical When we conducted a public consultation earlier Devices (Coronavirus Test Device Approvals) this year, more than 75% of respondents agreed with (Amendment) Regulations 2021. Special attention the need to implement a minimum performance standard drawn to the instrument by the Secondary Legislation for Covid-19 tests on the UK market. Indeed, one of Scrutiny Committee, 8th Report. the consultation responses highlighted: “Current performance claims are unreliable and can easily TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department make use of cherry-picked data. There are no set standards for of Health and Social Care (Lord Bethell) (Con): My sensitivity and specificity to be evaluated against, and therefore Lords, one in three people with coronavirus show no no objective way of comparing 2 tests.” symptoms and are potentially spreading it without This was also reflected in what manufacturers have knowing. Testing will remain vital to controlling and told me on numerous occasions. Manufacturers welcome containing the spread. To do this we will need a reliable this legislation. Many see this as an opportunity to supply of high-quality tests available to everyone, giving make the market more equitable and fairer to those people and businesses the confidence to be recalled to who strive to deliver a good product. life. A cornerstone of these regulations is the register of We should be proud of how we have risen to the quality tests that they will make available to anyone in challenge of this pandemic. We have grown our national the world. It will separate the wheat from the chaff in diagnostics capability dramatically, with laboratory terms of tests.Empowered by this information, individual capacity now at around 614,000 PCR tests a day. The consumers and companies will be able to make informed, Government have to date administered 218 million prudent choices when buying kits for themselves, their tests in total, delivering around 1.1 million a day. The families or their workforce. This will provide consumers UK has one of the largest testing diagnostic capabilities with clear and comparable information, not the miasma in the world. of confusion that some companies exploit. Either We have a growing market. More than 1,000 their test meets the Government’s standards and can organisations are undertaking accreditation through be sold or it does not. Any manufacturer that tries to UKAS to deliver testing services. Tests are already avoid these standards will face the force of the UK’s available on the market and their presence is growing, regulatory enforcement agencies. I am not interested GC 429 Medical Devices Regulations 2021[LORDS] Medical Devices Regulations 2021 GC 430

[LORD BETHELL] Paragraph 4 says that these regulations are in burdening businesses with bureaucracy but, in return, “for a time when privately bought tests play a more significant I expect businesses to engage with the scientific process role”. openly and honestly and, when they fail, to be candid Well, they certainly will be when the Government start about it. charging for NHS tests. It is a £3 billion market, after Although some may see this as a radical intervention all—at least I think so, from the figures I have seen. in the market, I am reminded of Dr John Snow, the In April, when the tests were first brought out, we father of epidemiology. When the evidence is clear and were told that handing them out—and, indeed, you need change to happen quickly, radical action is encouraging people to take them—was vital to getting no vice; it is a virtue. The change can be as simple as the country back to normal. The Secondary Legislation removing a pump handle, as Dr Snow did to prove Scrutiny Committee has been very critical of the failure that the source of cholera was in London’s water to supply documentation when the regulations were supply, or acting to ensure consistent standards that laid. In at least two paragraphs of its report, the bring the best of business creativity to bear for the committee makes it clear that free NHS tests must public good. continue. I want people to know that the tests they buy will be It is clear that the Government want to charge for as good as those they would receive under the NHS, the tests. I understand that the promise—and I have and therefore trust the results. This will empower made checks—was made to supply them free only people to take charge and make their own decisions until the end of next month, August. There has been about managing their personal health. Our experience no commitment to go beyond that, hence the rush to of the pandemic shows why we urgently need to level get these regulations through. Quite clearly, that is up the whole pathology infrastructure in our country. what it is all about. It is being pushed through at this This legislation will not only remedy the immediate last minute, a few days before the Recess, so that the market failure but be an example of effective regulation Government can abandon free tests at the end of that we can build on in future. August. I realise that the Minister has come briefed on Freedom requires vigilance. If we are to be free of the regulations and I am asking about something this pandemic, we need a wholesale culture shift in extra, but let us face it: it was predictable that this how we manage disease. We are reliant on one another, would be raised. He has not taken any opportunity to as fellow citizens in the shop, pub or workplace, to say anything about the maintenance of free tests. I safeguard each other’s health. Each of us needs to think that is sad because he is going to be asked that take responsibility as an individual. If we feel sick, repeatedly until the Government are clear about their take a test. If we might have been exposed to someone intentions. who was sick, take a test. If we have been somewhere My final point is a question: why do we need to where there is now an outbreak, take a test. This buy the NHS Test and Trace kits for the lateral flow legislation is about empowering people to take personal test, the one being given out by local chemists, responsibility for their health and giving them quality from one of the Chinese Communist Party-approved tools that they can rely on to do so. companies? How do we know they are not made with slave labour? What kickbacks go to that corrupt political This regulatory regime will not achieve that legacy party? What efforts are being made to get them in isolation but it will be part of the paradigm shift in made in the UK—dare I say Europe—or, indeed, how we manage disease going forward to a more Commonwealth countries? We now have the capacity proactive testing culture. It will ensure a market that to check the tests in laboratories. Why have we not provides choice to consumers through high standards done something about manufacturing capacity? Why and clear information; certainty to producers through are we reliant—we appear to be reliant—on the fix of clear and consistent regulation; and lessons for government the Chinese industrial structure, which is controlled by to apply to future regulations. I beg to move. the Communist Party or it cannot operate? In winding up, the Minister has the chance to be clear. I do not 3.42 pm expect him to answer everything, but it would be Lord Rooker (Lab) [V]: My Lords, I do not wish to useful if he would say that the Government intend to be at all critical of the figures that the Minister gave in pursue free NHS tests for a period beyond the end of his first few sentences regarding our capacity and what August. After all, that is in Recess. We will not have we have been able to do in our laboratories. I suspect, time to query that, as we are not back until 6 September, by the way, that he has a new speechwriter, as his so that decision would be taken outwith Parliament speech was slightly different from what I have heard sitting, and I do not think that would be right. from him before. The reality is that I put my name down for this debate for one simple reason: last week’s 3.46 pm reports that the Government intend to charge for Lord Moynihan (Con): My Lords, following on devices that are currently free on the NHS. These from the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, and regulations are about tests for sale. particularly referring to the Secondary Legislation The eighth report from our Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, I shall cover a number of additional Scrutiny Committee is a masterclass in drafting. It points that the committee raised and seek the Minister’s clearly states that the market is “overwhelmingly advice on them. dominated” by free NHS tests. Paragraph 3 states that These are welcome regulations providing rigorous “the Government want to support a ‘thriving private sector quality approval processes for all Covid-19 tests sold market for COVID-19 detection tests’”. in the United Kingdom. It is essential that tests currently GC 431 Medical Devices Regulations 2021[12 JULY 2021] Medical Devices Regulations 2021 GC 432 sold outside the NHS do not lead to an unregulated intention to ensure that any additional resources for black market developing. As we emerge from the these purposes will be made immediately available to lockdown phase and work towards a more open market trading standards? If so, what do they estimate these based on personal responsibility and extensive, easily to be? available testing, confidence, clarity and a strong legal framework need to be the guidelines for all such products. The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness I have a number of questions for my noble friend Healy of Primrose Hill) (Lab): The noble Lord, Lord the Minister in this context. Are the proposed minimum Hunt of Kings Heath, has withdrawn, so I call the standards to be employed exactly the same as the noble Lord, Lord Lansley. standards already in place for tests used by the NHS? If not, will he set out the differences? Will the proposed 3.51 pm mandatory processes be clear and well publicised for manufacturers of molecular and antigen tests? In Lord Lansley (Con): My Lords, I am grateful to my particular, I am interested in the process envisaged for noble friend the Minister for his introduction to these PCR tests since it focuses on genetic material—RNA— regulations. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Rooker: and is new in the mainstream pharmaceutical market. my noble friend has acquired a rhetorical flourish or In this context, is it envisaged to widen all testing on two today. RNA-based vaccines and medications? This area of We can see the powers that we debated on the medicine impinges on major ethical issues in an area Medicines and Medical Devices Act coming into use of science that is gathering pace and that many see to already. The powers in Section 15 are being used for have advanced 10 years or more as a result of the this purpose, but my noble friend will of course recall substantial investment made in RNA-based vaccines that Section 16 related to the criteria, including the and medicines during the Covid period. effect that any regulations made would have on the life sciences industry in the UK. The Explanatory I invite my noble friend to follow up on the intervention Memorandum argues persuasively that this validation by the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, regarding addressing process will increase the resilience of the supply chain the problems with the accuracy of lateral flow tests. and may even encourage domestic suppliers. It also They are disturbing and have rocked public confidence, refers to the discount available to SMEs, which is with 75% not meeting the performance and quality welcome. But paragraph 12.8 of the Explanatory standards of the NHS tests. If we want public support Memorandum says that an impact assessment would for test and trace, the whole edifice of confidence be published in time for the parliamentary debate. I collapses if there is no confidence in the accuracy of could not find one yesterday or today. Will my noble the market-based tests whose failure in turn blurs, and friend say where it is and whether it confirms that it is indeed damages, confidence in NHS tests. the Government’s clear view that the life sciences Like other noble Lords, I think timing is important. industry and SME interests are fully protected? It is difficult to read these regulations and believe There is a clear case for validation of these tests, them to be, as described, “rapid”. As I understand the given the reported failure rates of tests submitted for position, existing tests will continue to be available in public procurement, to which my noble friend referred. the UK market and will be required to submit their We need to use lateral flow tests to support the return application only by 1 September. The validation process to school in the autumn, to enable employers to bring will then have to be completed by 31 October for them their staff back to their workplaces, and to counter to remain on the market on 1 November. That means outbreaks—in particular with large-scale surge testing— that potentially substandard products can continue to when we have achieved a lower prevalence again, be supplied to the market for another three months or which I hope will be in the late summer. more before these regulations take effect. It is regrettable that this approach was not considered a year ago, or Studies including the Cochrane review, published in very early this year at least. April, suggest that lateral flow tests will reliably confirm that someone without Covid is negative; in that sense, Can the Minister provide an update on the recruitment they have very high specificity. Where their sensitivity process required to put the DHSC validation team on is concerned, they will confirm infection in someone a more suitable long-term footing? When do we anticipate with symptoms in an average of 72% of cases, but will that it will be completed? Is £6,200 sufficient to cover on average identify the infection in asymptomatic the proposed costs? How many applications do the cases only 58% of the time. Those results will vary Government expect as a result of these regulations? according to the location and experience of the tester— In closing, I note that local authority trading standards where it is done and by whom. We need these tests to are being asked to ensure that unapproved tests are work at home and not just in the hands of healthcare removed from sale. From my experience of the Consumer professionals. Protection Act and the many hours of debate on I support the regulations but I have three issues to subsequent consumer protection legislation—as applicable raise. First, the tests procured by the Government will to, in my case, the secondary ticket market, which not be subject to validation because that would essentially trading standards are being asked to oversee—I know be duplicatory, as the test approval is based on that that one of the consistent calls from all sides of the same procurement process.But that procurement process House is to increase resources to trading standards. has been used by the Government principally for the Trading standards are constantly subject to a regular procurement of the Innova tests, which, as the noble flow of additional responsibilities generated by legislative Lord,LordRooker,madeclear,areessentiallymanufactured action taken in Parliament. Is it the Government’s byXiamenBiotimeBiotechnologyinChina.TheGovernment, GC 433 Medical Devices Regulations 2021[LORDS] Medical Devices Regulations 2021 GC 434

[LORD LANSLEY] across the UK. However, we also raise the same issue of course, had an intermediary company—Disruptive as a number of noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Nanotechnology, in Northampton—which, as far as I Lord Moynihan, about their timing, and ask why this can see, was effectively a non-trading company at the is emergency legislation. I am afraid it is becoming a end of December 2019. It is Innova Medical Group bit of a trend that the Government bring things through that is essentially the intermediary. in emergency legislation. If the instrument had come Innova is a Californian company. It is reported that through a different route in which we had a lot of it has sold 380 million tests to the Government. But on time, we could have asked many of the questions that 10 June, the Food and Drug Administration issued a we are now asking, and improved and amended the safety communication that the Innova rapid antigen legislation to deal with some of the issues. This is so tests should be withdrawn. Indeed, its communication important, because this is about testing and trying to suggested that the people who had them should simply give the country a sense of what the new normal throw them away. The question I come to is this: if we will be. are confident in the Innova tests, what has been the The underlying basis of this is a significant change nature of the discussions we have had with the Food of public health policy. I am not aware of any other and Drug Administration? My understanding is that, infectious disease where public health policy on testing essentially, the Food and Drug Administration took is left purely to the market—unless the Minister can the view that Innova was advertising the tests for use advise otherwise. There is a real issue of this being with asymptomatic people, but that they were authorised about not just market failure but the role that public for use with those who have symptoms and that their health, public health professions and the public sector sensitivity is greater for those with symptoms. Is that will play to ensure that this works. why the FDA issued its class I recall on these tests? I say that because, without being linked to the test That being the case, why did my noble friend say when and trace system, there is a sense that testing in itself he introduced the regulations that it is really important will become not as effective as it could be. This SI that we have tests that work for those who are assumes that public policy will be for most testing to asymptomatic? These tests are not sufficiently specific be done outside the NHS, and possibly for a charge. for those who are asymptomatic. So once these tests are approved and there is a standard, I know that it is a legal case, so my noble friend how do mandatory tests then get into the tracing part might hide behind his inability to speak about it, but of test and trace? There is no legislation at present to why has Mologic, a Bedford company that has a track suggest that has to happen. Employers, or particularly record, found it necessary to sue the Government in an individual at home, could take a test and it turn out relation to their validation processes for the public to be positive. Coming back to what has been said procurement? What does that tell us about the validation many times before in the House and in Grand Committee, they propose to use for this purpose? if people feel that they cannot afford to self-isolate, I have two very quick other points. To put at rest they are not going to give details about them being positive. the mind of the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, could my The question is: if this becomes predominantly a noble friend update us on the plans announced last market-driven approach, done by employers and month for Innova and Sharp packaging to build a businesses bringing in customers, as the Explanatory factory in Caerphilly to produce up to a million tests a Memorandum suggests, or by individuals at home, day, starting in July—this month? It is absolutely right how does that then trigger tracing? How will it trigger that we should have leading medical technology companies a person having to inform somebody, either locally or in this country and manufacturing supply alongside nationally, through test and trace, that they are positive? them. Significantly, how will tracing then kick in to help Thirdly, to further endorse what the noble Lord, ensure that the chains of transmission are dealt with Lord Rooker, said, could my noble friend explain what as speedily as possible, particularly since evidence the Government’s intention is on charging for tests, suggests that 48 hours is the maximum time before the particularly for employers, who will want to institute chain continues to spread? testing regimes to bring their staff back into their Regulation 39A says that the Secretary of State can premises and to protect the public and their customers make an exemption for tests coming on to the market while doing so? They have had 18 months, in many which are not tested. In what circumstances does the cases, during which they have lost revenues. Should we Minister feel that the Secretary of State would be really expect them to meet this further cost at this able to use the power under Regulation 39A? How stage? Their taxes will sustain us in the future, but will it be reported to Parliament or to the public, so should we not now support them to get back to work? that they know whether the test they are getting—or I would be grateful for my noble friend’s response. potentially buying—has not been through the statutory testing regime? The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness I want to further explore something mentioned by Healy of Primrose Hill) (Lab): The noble Baroness, the noble Lords, Lord Lansley and Lord Rooker. It is Lady Brinton, has withdrawn, so I call the noble Lord, to do with the Innova test and the recommendation in Lord Scriven, in her place. the email from the Food and Drug Administration, which said that this test should be thrown “in the 3.58 pm trash”—that was the exact quote. Since it was a class I Lord Scriven (LD): My Lords, of course these Benches recall, I need to know what extra testing or analysis welcome the general thrust of the regulations—that has been done by the UK Government based on what tests should be safe and that there should be a standard they have seen from the FDA and that recall. When GC 435 Medical Devices Regulations 2021[12 JULY 2021] Medical Devices Regulations 2021 GC 436 was that done and what is the outcome of that testing Given the importance of reliable high-quality testing or analysis, based on the extra evidence that has come devices for the effective management of Covid-19 in from the FDA? the long term, can the Minister explain why the new Finally, I would like to ask whether free testing will validation process was not introduced earlier? Given still be available on the NHS. If it is to be available, a that the DHSC says that as part of managing Covid in number of questions arise. If I could have free testing the long term the Government will want to support on the NHS and it is not means-tested, why would I “a thriving private sector market for COVID-19 detection tests to buy a test, unless certain categories of organisations supplement and support testing led by NHS Test and Trace” will not be allowed to use the NHS test? At the and to moment, people going abroad are not allowed to use “encourage the private sector to bring a number of testing products the free NHS test. Is it anticipated to be the same for and services to market to meet the differing needs of businesses organisations such as businesses—for their staff and and individuals” for customers coming in, et cetera? What thought has and provide consumer choice, how will we ensure that been put into that? all the tests available will meet the minimum performance These issues, and the others which noble Lords standards? According to the department, the new have raised, are important because this is a matter of quality requirements introduced by this instrument public health and of how we contain the virus in the “will make the UK private testing market more competitive, as most effective way possible, while keeping people safe. manufacturers will need to improve the accuracy and speed of I come back to my opening remark: this is not emergency their tests in order to outcompete competitors”. legislation. It should have been laid normally before Can the Minister confirm the timeframe for shifting Parliament, so that we could have dealt with it and to a private testing model? How much will these tests tabled amendments. I would have hoped to make this cost and who will bear the brunt, employers or employees? better, to keep people safe and to deal with proper Will there be waivers or business support for vulnerable testing across the UK. workplaces, including hospitals, care homes and schools, as well as other key workers where frequent testing is 4.04 pm key to protecting the vulnerable and often to things Baroness Thornton (Lab): My Lords, the importance such as keeping a school open? Does he agree that it is of this SI is underlined by the decision of the Secondary essential that free NHS tests continue to be available, Legislation Scrutiny Committee to draw the regulations given the rise in case numbers and the Government’s to insistence on going ahead with opening, as I have already said? “the special attention of the House on the grounds that they are politically or legally important and give rise to issues of public I would like to have some more information about policy likely to be of interest to the House.” the August cut-off point. During the procurement of The noble Lord, Lord Scriven is quite right: this is lateral flow device tests for the NHS, only 25% passed not emergency legislation. Here we are, more than a through all stages of validation including the assessment year in. It is not an emergency. However, this is a very for performance and quality standards under the current important statutory instrument. My noble friend regime. The 75% of the LFD tests assessed as not Lord Rooker and the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, have meeting performance or quality standards of the NHS outlined many of the questions that need to be addressed, still qualify as fit for market. The DHSC says that but I need to put the Minister on notice that, depending rapid intervention is therefore required to address this. on his answer to this debate, I may oppose it here in Does rapid mean now or a year ago? the Grand Committee and take it to the Floor of Department of Health and Social Care data showed the House. that six out of 10 positive rapid test results at schools I am very concerned listening to this debate. I was between 4 March and 17 March turned out to be concerned when I made my own notes, and I am even wrong. It is therefore legitimate to ask whether the real more concerned now listening to other noble Lords. reason that we are backing away from them is because This is not just about the quality of testing; it is about they do not work for self-testing and do not represent the market of testing, and that is quite different. That value for money. What is going to happen next? The is why the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee Minister needs to set out the timescale. Can he confirm was concerned about a major change in public policy. that if the third-party approach is to be considered, Putting a major change in public policy through in these contracts will go out for public tender? Grand Committee under these circumstances is probably Does the Minister share my concern that the not a good idea and does not make for good legislation. department’s explanation appears to suggest that less We absolutely support a quality approval process accurate tests can be of diagnostic value for the NHS for all Covid-19 tests in the UK. It is important that if such tests are used by clinicians who are able to the new process is rigorous to ensure that all tests, consider other factors and information and therefore including those for sale, meet the relevant quality put any tests into a wider clinical context? Finally, standards, especially if such tests are to play a greater what extra resources will be available to local authority role in the long-term management of Covid-19. In the trading standards teams for testing enforcement activities? meantime, it is essential that free NHS tests continue to be available. This is all the more important given the 4.10 pm rising case numbers and the Government’s insistence on going ahead with the removal of all restrictions, Lord Bethell (Con): My Lords, I start by assuring including the legal requirement to wear face coverings the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, the noble Baroness, on public transport, in a week’s time. Lady Thornton, and others that when we look at this GC 437 Medical Devices Regulations 2021[LORDS] Medical Devices Regulations 2021 GC 438

[LORD BETHELL] So we are looking to evolve the way we do testing in validation SI, our overarching objective is safeguarding this country and I will be glad to update the House public health. That is the primary impact of this when those plans are fully formed. regulatory regime for the validation of Covid-19 tests. In response to the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, the I think noble Lords agree that high-quality tests are role of asymptomatic testing will undoubtedly evolve essential to avoid public health risks in future. when a large proportion of the country is vaccinated I will just clarify one key point. When I said that and when vaccination greatly reduces the link between 75% of tests did not meet those standards and that infection and hospitalisation, whereas the role of PCR only 50 of the 280 we had looked at passed, I meant testing will become more important as we move to a that we rejected and never bought the 75% and were situation where there may be new infection. We hope limited to only a smaller number of suppliers. That that R will be below one, and these changing dynamics created a bottleneck in the supply of tests, which noble will have a profound effect on the provision of diagnostics. Lords will remember as a terrible feature of the pandemic In answer to my noble friend Lord Lansley’squestions, last year which severely inhibited the progress of our we are enormously engaged with UK manufacturers. campaign against this awful virus. We have a Make programme, with a substantial team The importance of tests was bitterly showcased last that is fully engaged with the UK diagnostics industry. year because of the dangers of one person potentially I pay testimony to SureScreen, one of the key suppliers causing an outbreak in the whole community.Therefore, to test and trace, for the incredibly valuable contribution the primary purpose of the regulatory regime we are that it makes to our procurement. I am grateful to all debating today is to safeguard public health. those partners that supply test and trace and the NHS The UK Government are clear that we want to be a with tests, but we are doing everything that we can to world leader in agile regulation; this will encourage support the UK industry. businesses from the UK and elsewhere to research and In reply to my noble friend Lord Moynihan, the manufacture tests in the UK. We need that because standards are the same for the NHS as the validation when the pandemic began at the beginning of last for test and trace. We are trying to bring about a year, we had neither a domestic diagnostic industry situation where the test you take in a test and trace or nor institutional experience of how to assess and NHS capacity will be exactly the same one that you validate tests. Those were functions that we had to take in a private capacity. build from the ground up. This SI puts in place mechanisms for encouraging a domestic industry and On timing, we are moving as quickly as we can and the standards to assess that industry. we have heavily resourced this area. In fact, our major constraint has been our desire to take these measures British manufacturers and pharmaceutical research through Parliament in the usual fashion. On costs, the and engineering firms have led the way as part of a programme currently washes its own face, but we are global effort to combat the virus, keeping the NHS conscious of the pressure of costs on manufacturers supplied with kit, tests and medicines. We engaged and we very much hope to bring the costs down. with them thoroughly.A consultation has been published, and I would be glad to distribute it to noble Lords. I completely share the sentiments of noble Lords They resoundingly support these measures. who mentioned trading standards. It has already performed an important task in holding test distributors If companies do not want to improve the quality of and service firms to account, and I am enormously their tests to meet our standards, they simply will not grateful for its interventions in the market. sell their tests here. I see the loss of poor-quality tests from the market as positive, as it will leave more We have completed an impact statement but we are market share for high-quality tests. That is a message I waiting for final comments from the RPC. As soon as give to all those manufacturing tests that cannot make it is available we will make the statement available to the standards. parliamentarians. We have assessed that the direct costs to business of this policy are made up of £6 million I say to the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, who asked a annual equivalent for the validation programme and number of perceptive questions about the role of free £165 million in forgone profits for manufacturers either testing and the policy in this area, that reports in the not applying for validation or for products that do not press are not to be given the credibility he suggests and pass validation. As the Covid-19 diagnostic market that we have not moved on as far as he suggests. inevitably shrinks, forgone profits fall year on year However, it is true that we have always established the from £647 million in year 1 to £35 million in year 6. principle that the Government cannot provide every single test for every single purpose. That is for two On my noble friend Lord Lansley’s question about reasons. For instance, travel is essentially a voluntary whether NHS tests will need to undergo validation, all matter, and it is not right for the taxpayer to pay for tests used by NHS Test and Trace have already undergone tests that people take in order to conduct a voluntary rigorous clinical evaluation, providing confidence in matter. their performance. The Government’s proposals aim The other reason is pragmatic. We will not be able to ensure that all tests available in the UK meet the to sustain or have a resilient diagnostic system in this same high standards. country if the state is the only player and we have no My noble friend Lord Lansley asked about the private capacity to lean on. That was our experience sensitivity and specificity of the LFD tests, and his last year and it damaged us greatly. Countries that had points were very well made. The LFD test is for private diagnostic capacity, such as Germany, survived infectiousness. An extremely mild infection that is not much better and had much more capacity to lean on. in itself infectious will not necessarily be picked up by GC 439 Medical Devices Regulations 2021[12 JULY 2021] Railways Regulations 2021 GC 440 an LFD in the same way that it will by a PCR, but that in person, others are participating remotely, but all does not invalidate the effectiveness of LFDs in breaking Members will be treated equally. I ask Members in the the chains of transmission. Room to respect social distancing. If the capacity of On the taking of tests, our experience has been that, the Committee Room is exceeded or other safety after one or two goes, tests taken at home are just as requirements are breached, I will immediately adjourn good as those being taken by clinicians in the laboratory. the Committee. If there is a Division in the House, the In fact, it is a testament to the British public that they Committee will adjourn for five minutes. The time have been as diligent and thorough as they have been limit for the following debate is one hour. in using their swabs. I completely understand noble Lords’concerns about Railway (Licensing of Railway the FDA press release and its concerns about the Undertakings) (Amendment) Innova tests. I assure them that MHRA colleagues Regulations 2021 were entirely involved in the intense conversations with the FDA and have satisfied themselves that the Considered in Grand Committee FDA’s concerns were not applicable to the UK market. 4.35 pm We continue to maintain the purchasing of Innova tests based on validations that we in the UK have done Moved by Baroness Vere of Norbiton for ourselves. That the Grand Committee do consider the Railway My noble friend Lord Lansley mentioned inward (Licensing of Railway Undertakings) (Amendment) investment. We really hope that many firms, both Regulations 2021. British and from overseas, will invest further in the Relevant document: 8th Report from the Secondary UK. We are working hard to build up a UK diagnostics Legislation Scrutiny Committee industry from relatively humble beginnings into something that is muscular, innovative and makes the very best The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, use of UK science. I hope that I will be able to make Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) announcements on that in the near future. (Con) [V]: My Lords, these draft regulations will be The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, asked how made under the powers conferred by the Channel the costs of tests will be regulated. The cost to the Tunnel Act 1987. They will make the necessary public will be governed by the marketplace. I am amendments to domestic rail operator licensing legislation pleased to say that the costs have come down dramatically to enable the implementation of a bilateral agreement in the past year; it is my hope that they will continue to between the UK and France on the recognition of rail come down. operator licences for the Channel Tunnel and cross-border As we move beyond the pandemic, we must consider area. This will support the continued smooth operation its legacy. After World War II, our grandparents left of Channel Tunnel traffic when the temporary us the NHS as its legacy. As they turned their tools arrangements expire on 30 September 2021. and talent against fascism, so too they turned them The regulations will also provide long-term certainty, against disease, and they moved from the business of clarity and confidence to cross-border operators, both taking lives to saving them. In the same way, we must current and prospective, regarding the future operator ensure that this greatest test of our nation since World licensing framework for the Channel Tunnel. They War II leaves an equal legacy for our grandchildren. I will apply to England, Scotland and Wales, although hope that a revolution to our approach to diagnostics the main operative provisions will, in practice, apply will be that legacy,with proactive, not reactive, healthcare only to the Channel Tunnel and cross-border area. and disease management. I say to the noble Baroness, The regulations are subject to the affirmative procedure, Lady Thornton, that our intention is for good-quality, as set out under the Channel Tunnel Act, and Schedule well-regulated Covid-19 diagnostic tests to be a small 8 to the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. but integral part of that legacy and for us to learn The regulations amend the 2005 railway operator lessons to support the NHS in saving lives for generations licensing regulations, which updated the rules for the to come. licensing of passenger and freight train operators in Motion agreed. Great Britain established under the Railways Act 1993 by introducing a new EU form of licence. This was The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Faulkner done to reflect changes to EU operator licensing laws. of Worcester) (Lab): The Grand Committee stands The 2005 regulations introduced the requirement for adjourned until 4.35 pm. I remind Members to sanitise operators running services on the basis of the new EU their desks and chairs before leaving the Room. form of licence in Great Britain to hold a statement of national regulatory provisions, or SNRP. SNRPs 4.22 pm supplement licensing requirements, covering, for example, Sitting suspended. the provision of information to passengers, membership of industry bodies and third-party insurance conditions. Arrangement of Business The regulations also amend the Railway (Licensing Announcement of Railway Undertakings) (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019, which were introduced to correct 4.35 pm deficiencies in the 2005 regulations arising from the The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Faulkner UK’s exit from the EU, to ensure that they continued of Worcester) (Lab): My Lords, the hybrid Grand to operate effectively post exit. As well as converting Committee will now resume. Some Members are here the EU form of licences issued by the Office of Rail GC 441 Railways Regulations 2021 [LORDS] Railways Regulations 2021 GC 442

[BARONESS VERE OF NORBITON] continued smooth operation of cross-border services and Road, the ORR, to “railway undertaking licences”, through the Channel Tunnel. I commend these regulations the 2019 regulations provided for the continued recognition to the Committee. in Great Britain of European licences for a period of two years from exit day—in other words, until 4.42 pm 31 January 2022. Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate (Con) [V]: My Lords, I Following the end of the transition period, there is find myself in a uniquely privileged position today no longer automatic mutual recognition of licences because, when looking at the Order Paper this morning, between the UK and the EU. The recognition of UK I was rather amazed to see that my role here has been licences for the Channel Tunnel is currently provided defined as “all other speakers”and I have been afforded for by an EU contingency regulation that expires on no less than 10 minutes to make a speech. This is 30 September 2021. These operator licensing regulations, almost unique in the last 15 months, but I want to and the proposed bilateral agreement that they implement, placate my colleagues, or at least reassure them, by will ensure the continued recognition of operator licences saying that I do not intend to use all of that time. Still, for the Channel Tunnel when the current temporary it was a marvellous bit of news this morning, and I arrangements expire. This will have a significant positive hope it will be replicated in future debates. impact on cross-border operators, by providing long-term Since the Channel Tunnel opened in 1994, I, like certainty on the licensing requirements for the Channel many millions of other UK and European citizens, Tunnel. It will also reduce the administrative burdens have been able to travel on dry land between our states on them, by enabling them to operate in the Channel in comfort and at speed. I have occasionally used the Tunnel and cross-border area without the need to hold shuttle when I have required my own car to be with me two separate licences—that is, one issued in Great on the continent, but I must, and want to, declare an Britain and one issued in the EEA. interest: I hold the record of being one of the most- Under the regulations, EU licences will be recognised travelled Eurostar train service passengers, thanks to up to the first border crossing station in the UK only, the weekly journeys that I undertook during the 17 years which is Dollands Moor for freight and Ashford that I served as a Member of the European Parliament, International for passenger services. This mirrors the commuting to Brussels and Paris. I commend Eurostar extent of the recognition of UK licences in French on its trains and service, which got better and better territory under the proposed bilateral agreement, and during those years, with the provision of new facilities so ensures equivalence. at the terminals, as well as its rolling stock. The regulations, and by extension the agreement The Covid crisis has of course presented it, and that they will implement, are fully compatible with the other cross-channel transport operators, with serious Government’s fundamental red lines in the Channel financial challenges. Although that situation is not Tunnel negotiations with France, which are to support directly addressed in the legislation that we are considering the continuation of cross-border services while conferring today, I hope my noble friend will understand that no role for the EU courts or the European rail agency merely expressing positive and good wishes may not in UK territory and avoiding dynamic alignment with be sufficient. I hope it will not be long before Eurostar EU law. and others can enjoy renewed growth and prosperity, but the company may need more help, as others have Information-sharing provisions are included in the received from Governments on both sides of the Channel. regulations to give effect to requirements of the proposed bilateral agreement. Under these requirements, the Having said that, I wish to spend a moment on the ORR will be able to share information with the equivalent treaty of Canterbury,signed by the late Baroness Thatcher, French authorities in relation to, for example, any as our Prime Minister, and President Mitterrand of doubts as to the validity of a licence or compliance France in Canterbury Cathedral in 1986. It is not with licensing requirements on the part of either a perhaps the most exciting thing in history to have European licence holder operating a Channel Tunnel happened in Canterbury Cathedral but it is probably service in Great Britain or an ORR-licensed operator close to it. As noble Lords will recollect, this was the operating a Channel Tunnel service in France. treaty that allowed the Channel Tunnel to be constructed, in which the legal and territorial structure for its operation The regulations will also ensure a level playing field was laid down. A new border between France and the regarding the licensing requirements for operators on UK was created below the seabed, halfway across. the French and UK sides of the Channel Tunnel and This was followed up by a protocol signed in November cross-border area by disapplying the current UK 1991, which effectively juxtaposed national control requirement to hold an SNRP for EU-licensed operators bureaus at Fréthun near Calais and Folkestone in the of Channel Tunnel services, up to Dollands Moor or UK. This was in itself a unique territorial exchange, Ashford International only, and ensuring that no allowing security and frontier arrangements to be equivalent additional licensing requirements will be in operated in full co-operation and harmony. Over the place for UK-licensed operators on the French side—it years, it has worked very well in protecting both will be the same either side. Again, this will support France and the UK, as well as preserving respective the recognition of those licences on a fully reciprocal immigration rules and policies. It will no doubt please basis under the bilateral agreement. some to know that all this was, and is, based largely on Toconclude, the regulations will reduce administrative bilateral agreements between France and the UK. The burdens on cross-border operators and enable them to international interest in the Canterbury treaty at that plan their businesses into the future with confidence. time was from the United Nations. Any modification of Most importantly, they will support the long-term the protocol should be by exchange of diplomatic notes. GC 443 Railways Regulations 2021 [12 JULY 2021] Railways Regulations 2021 GC 444

Of course, although the basis of the tunnel relationship manner. This SI has a limited application but is is bilateral, as my noble friend the Minister said, there nevertheless fundamentally important in keeping people are consequences for rail operators of our leaving the and trade flowing between the UK and the EU and EU, which is why these provisions are now required. mainland Europe. The original pre-Brexit regulations were approved in When there are so many stories of additional post- 2005, as she said, and gave cover for EEA-issued Brexit hurdles for those wanting to do business with operator licences. In the aftermath of our withdrawal, the EU, it is important that this SI is presented in new regulations were put in place in 2019 to cover the anticipation of the UK and the EU reaching an agreement two-year period until September this year. at the end of September. I join the request to ask the As my noble friend the Minister said, we now need Minister to update us with the latest information on to renew the regulations to protect the rail operators the discussions with the EU. Is this agreement firmly of Eurostar and freight services until a new agreement on track? Can we be confident about it? I have a sense with France is, hopefully, concluded and ratified. I of Groundhog Day about these regulations, as I recall understand that the shuttle and Eurotunnel are protected a similar measure in preparation for Brexit in 2019. under alternative provisions. Perhaps my noble friend The SI is to be welcomed, especially because of the can advise on how the ongoing discussions on the increasing awareness of the environmental importance bilateral arrangements are proceeding. I understand of encouraging international rail transport, both passenger that the technical details are agreed. I assume that and freight. EU countries have recognised this and there are no political or other impediments to the there is strong growth in the number of long-distance satisfactory conclusion of this. rail services being launched to replace air travel. I As a former Leeds MP and Yorkshire MEP, may I thoroughly recommend the journey using the press my noble friend a little further? I know it is a Channel Tunnel through to Lille then taking the TGV long time ago but, in 1987, when the then Channel further south. It is a brilliant and luxurious way to Tunnel Bill referred to earlier by my noble friend travel, even in standard class. The need to replace air passed through our Houses, a number of MPs from travel applies to both passenger and freight travel. outside the south-east of the UK supported it and France has even legislated to prevent short domestic allowed the scheme to proceed on the basis of clear air journeys. I hope that the UK Government will promises that there would be direct services from similarly work to encourage long-distance rail in our northern cities such as Leeds, Newcastle and York to country and use HS2 in the way in which it should be European cities such as Paris, Brussels and Amsterdam. used to encourage that. These have essentially not materialised; no doubt plans I want to take this opportunity to ask the Minister remain on the table. Perhaps my noble friend can about the level of freight services through the tunnel elaborate on how this might be taken forward and any in the last 18 months during the pandemic. I am possible linkage there might be to the HS2 network in especially keen to look at the levels of freight using the due course. It would be very positive if we tried to tunnel pre and post Brexit. We know that passenger bring this about because we all know that, with COP travel has been heavily hit but freight should be flourishing, 26 being hosted in this country later this year, the especially because of the shortage of HGV drivers. environmental benefits of electric trains cannot be The two specialist freight operators using the tunnel underestimated. We have the opportunity to give fresh are sure to be well placed to take some of the heat out endorsement to this form of travel. Can my noble of this situation. I look forward to the Minister’s friend also confirm that, in view of the separate EU comments in the hope that she can reassure me that legislation covering Eurotunnel, there are no risks to freight is flourishing. the continued smooth running of the shuttle? Obviously, I fully support these protective measures 4.53 pm to cover us for the time being. Not only should we welcome them; we must also look for the enhancement Lord Rosser (Lab) [V]: I thank the Minister for her of services using this vital piece of infrastructure, explanation of the purpose and content of the regulations. ensuring its use to rebuild positive relationships with It was very helpful and almost led me to rewrite parts our European neighbours after an undoubtedly fraught of what I am going to say. period. Before I go any further, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate, on noticing that he had been given 10 minutes to speak, compared with 4.48 pm me, who has six minutes, and the noble Baroness, Baroness Randerson (LD): My Lords, like the noble Lady Randerson, who also has six minutes. I hope that Lord, Lord Kirkhope, I am a firm fan of both Eurostar the Government Chief Whip will at some stage explain and the shuttle service through the tunnel. I mainly why this state of affairs happened. The noble Lord, take the Eurostar to Brussels for family reasons but I Lord Kirkhope, wondered whether it would ever happen have gone on to a number of other locations on that again; I assure him that precisely the same thing does excellent service. One of the things I have really missed happen again in the next SI we have to deal with. in the last 15 months is those regular trips through the I also noted the noble Lord’s comments about the Channel Tunnel. possibility of through trains between the north and Given the months of political wrangling about Europe. I suspect that I am in the same boat as him in whose responsibility it was to prop up Eurostar, it is a wondering why it is not possible to link up HS2 and relief to see that at least this aspect of Channel Tunnel HS1; the situation at the moment appears to be that services seems to be progressing in a straightforward there will not necessarily be a link. GC 445 Railways Regulations 2021 [LORDS] Railways Regulations 2021 GC 446

[LORD ROSSER] Finally, the Explanatory Memorandum states that I come back to the regulations, which, as the “the transitory provisions … which provide for the continued Explanatory Memorandum states, recognition of European licences in Great Britain” “provide for the continued recognition of EEA issued rail operator will continue in force licences … for the Channel Tunnel and the cross-border area” “until they expire at 11pm on 31 January 2022.” and It also says that the “current EU contingency legislation”, “make the necessary amendments to domestic rail legislation to which provides for the continued recognition of GB support the implementation of a UK-France bilateral agreement operator licences in the French half of the tunnel and on the mutual recognition of rail operator licences”, immediately beyond, which, subject to final checks, is to be implemented “expires on 30 September 2021”. and ratified. I, too, look forward to the Minister’s Paragraph 7.8 of the draft Explanatory Memorandum response on what progress is being made in those states: bilateral discussions. “If … the bilateral agreement is only ratified by both sides The Explanatory Memorandum refers to after the expiry period of the transitory provisions, the Regulations provide for the amendments to the transitory provisions not to “cross-border operators, both current and prospective” take effect, as the transitory provisions will themselves be spent for whom these regulations are intended by that point.” “to provide long-term certainty … regarding the future operator What happens at midnight on 30 September 2021, licensing framework for the Channel Tunnel”. when the EU contingency legislation expires,if the bilateral Can the Minister say who the current operators referred agreement has not been ratified by then by both sides, to are and whether there are currently any further and what happens at 11 pm on 31 January 2022, when credible prospective operators on the horizon? the transitory provisions on the continued recognition In paragraph 3.3 of the Explanatory Memorandum, in Great Britain of European licences cease to have there is a reference to effect, if the bilateral agreement has not been ratified “information sharing by the Office of Rail and Road … in respect by then by both sides? of holders of railway undertaking licences issued by the ORR”. Like the noble Lord, Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate, The Minister made reference to this matter in her and the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, I await the opening comments. Is this sharing of information a Government’s response to the points that have been regular occurrence? Did she cover all the issues involved made in this debate with interest. in information sharing in her helpful comments, or are 4.59 pm there other issues involving information sharing in Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con) [V]: My Lords, I addition to the ones she mentioned? thank all noble Lords for their contributions to this As the Minister said, and as the EM explains, the short debate. There were lots of warm wishes for 2005 regulations, which are amended by these regulations, continental train travel; I add mine to them. We all “introduced the requirement for operators … to hold a Statement enjoy going on the train, whether it be in a vehicle or of National Regulatory Provisions … SNRPs supplement licensing on Eurostar. We obviously closely monitor the impact requirements, for example setting out specific third-party insurance of Covid on Eurostar—I know that my noble friend requirements over and above the general licensing requirement for adequate insurance to be maintained.” Lord Kirkhope was interested in this—and all transport services. All being well, I hope to see their passengers The EM states: and other customers return soon. “The requirement introduced by the 2005 Regulations … to hold a SNRP will be disapplied by the Regulations for operators Turning to the regulations under consideration today, relying on such licences to operate services through the Channel I start by providing a bit more colour about the status Tunnel and up to … Dollands Moor or Ashford International of the discussions with France; I think all noble Lords station.” were interested to hear how we were getting on. My It says that this change officials have been in active and regular discussion “is deemed necessary to support the mutual recognition of licences with their French counterparts since the beginning of on a fully reciprocal basis.” the year to secure this bilateral agreement on the Yet it also says this: recognition of the rail operator licences for the Channel Tunnel and the tiny cross-border area either side of it. “The impact of disapplying this requirement, if any, is expected to be very limited in practice given the very limited geographical I assure the Committee that the talks have been highly scope of the exemption and given that all cross-border operators constructive. Agreement has been reached in principle currently running services through the Channel Tunnel do so on at the technical level and it is now subject to final legal the basis of a UK licence.” checks. It is expected that the agreement will be signed Can the Minister confirm that this change in respect before the end of September, then provisionally applied of an SNRP has no impact on the situation as it is at by both sides for a limited period to support the present or on any current operators of services through continuation of services in the immediate term once the tunnel? If I am wrong in thinking that, can she say the current EU contingency measure expires. what current arrangements and current operators are The agreement will still need to be ratified through affected and in what way? Can she also say what the the UK Parliament; this will of course be done as soon change in respect of disapplying the requirement to as possible thereafter.It will be done via the Constitutional hold an SNRP will represent from the current position Reform and Governance Act 2010 process, rightly for any future EEA operator of rail services operating giving Parliament the opportunity to scrutinise the services text in full before it is ratified. I am not sure whether “through the Channel Tunnel and up to (but not beyond) Dollands this will reassure the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, but it Moor or Ashford International station”? will certainly inform him: we have been clear with our GC 447 Railways Regulations 2021[12 JULY 2021] Motor Fuel Regulations 2021 GC 448

French counterparts that the regulations will not receive area, so to speak. We continue our discussions with ministerial signature and become law unless and until the these stakeholders and keep them informed as to how related bilateral agreement is signed by France or, failing the bilateral negotiations with France are going. that, a EU contingency measure is extended pending To give noble Lords a quick heads-up, it is also the final conclusion of the agreement. Something will worth mentioning that this is just one element of what thus have happened by 30 September to maintain the we are discussing with the French at the moment. We smooth running of services. It does not strike me that are also discussing train driver licences, safety certificates it would be in anyone’s interest for that not to occur. and the overarching safety rules applicable to the In the extraordinarily unlikely event that France Channel Tunnel. Again, these discussions are going does not ratify the signed agreement, for whatever well. We will bring more regulations to your Lordships’ reason, we could also revoke these regulations in future. House in the autumn and we will have the opportunity There is no risk that the UK will continue to recognise to scrutinise them in full. In any event, there are robust EU licences indefinitely without that being fully and effective contingency agreements and arrangements reciprocated by France. We do not think that we will in place for those matters at the moment. end up in that situation. We absolutely believe that the My noble friend Lord Kirkhope asked a question agreement will be signed and that we will be able to about services from Europe to the north. I will write a put in place in the immediate term while it is being letter to him, if I may, because then I can explain more ratified by the UK Parliament. generally our plans for rail in the north and how they On the disapplication of SNRPs, the disapplication might link into European services. of the requirement to hold a SNRP in the UK half of The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, asked about the channel and the immediate cross-border area will pre-Brexit and post-Brexit freight volumes. I do not ensure equivalence with the licensing requirements have that information to hand, unfortunately; again, I applicable to UK operators on the French side, so it will happily write to her. will be the same. Given the extremely limited scope of If I have missed anything else, I will ask officials to the regulations, disapplication of the SNRP requirement look through Hansard very carefully and make sure is expected to have almost no impact in practice. It is that they pick up everything I have forgotten. therefore considered acceptable in the interests of reciprocity. In practice, there are no current operators Motion agreed. to which this disapplication will apply; I know this was The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Faulkner of interest to the noble Lord, Lord Rosser. All the of Worcester) (Lab): The Grand Committee stands cross-border operators—the two freight operators, GB adjourned until 5.10 pm, which is really quite soon. I Railfreight and DB Cargo UK, and the passenger remind Members to sanitise their desks and chairs operator, Eurostar—do so on the basis of a GB licence. before leaving the Room. They are scooped up in the SNRP requirement anyway by having a GB licence. 5.08 pm The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, also asked whether Sitting suspended. there are any credible prospective operators. I am not aware that there are any at this moment in time but, Arrangement of Business should one wish to come forward, we would obviously Announcement welcome its involvement in the market. Any future operator of rail services, if it was an EEA operator 5.10 pm that went beyond either Dollands Moor or Ashford The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Faulkner International, would in any event have to have an ORR- of Worcester) (Lab): My Lords, the hybrid Grand issued railway undertaking licence, so they too would Committee will now resume. Some Members are here then be subject to the SNRP requirement. We believe in person and others participating remotely, but all that the situation we have works very well. It is time to Members will be treated equally. I ask Members in the be pragmatic and, in practice, it makes no difference. Room to respect social distancing. If the capacity of On stakeholder views and the impact on operators, the Committee Room is exceeded or other safety the amendments in these regulations will in reality have requirements are breached, I will immediately adjourn a very limited impact on cross-border operators. Indeed, the Committee. If there is a Division in the House, the the measures being introduced will have a significant Committee will adjourn for five minutes. positive impact in that they will be able to continue the smooth running of cross-border operations. We did a Motor Fuel (Composition and Content) survey on the draft regulations and sent it to Channel and the Biofuel (Labelling) (Amendment) Tunnel stakeholders. DB Cargo, Eurostar International Ltd, Eurotunnel, the Rail Delivery Group, the Rail (No. 2) Regulations 2021 Freight Group and High Speed 1 Ltd responded; all Considered in Grand Committee were highly supportive of the regulations and recognised 5.10 pm the importance of securing this continued smooth running. A couple of concerns were raised but they Moved by Baroness Vere of Norbiton were outside the scope of the regulations or related to That the Grand Committee do consider the Motor the geographic scope of recognition in the UK. Obviously, Fuel (Composition and Content) and the Biofuel we have chosen to mirror that closely to what they do (Labelling) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2021. on the French side, where you go up to the first station Special attention drawn to the instrument by the for either passengers or freight; that is the cross-border Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, 8th Report. GC 449 Motor Fuel Regulations 2021[LORDS] Motor Fuel Regulations 2021 GC 450

TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department full greenhouse gas benefits of E10 introduction, we for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con) [V]: have consulted separately on increases to the RTFO My Lords,the purpose of these regulations is to introduce from January 2022, allowing for a short transition E10 as standard petrol across Great Britain while period. We will announce the next steps on the target ensuring that the current E5 grade remains available to increases soon. thosewhoneedit.E10petrolcontainsupto10%renewable While 95% of all petrol vehicles can use E10, some ethanol, double the amount that can be blended into older vehicles cannot. That is why this instrument today’s E5 grade. Increasing the renewable ethanol includes provisions to keep the current E5 petrol available content can reduce annual carbon dioxide emissions in the higher octane super grade. The super grade is by 750,000 tonnes, helping us to meet our ambitious available nationwide but in areas with less coverage, climate targets. such as in parts of Scotland, exemptions are available The regulations also update labelling requirements to ensure that everyone can access the fuel they need. that must accompany the sale of E10 to ensure that Wehave also launched a comprehensive communications fuel consumers have the right information. Finally, the campaign involving local radio, roadside posters, social SI makes some necessary amendments to the Motor media and information on the forecourts. This informs Fuel (Composition and Content) Regulations 1999 to motorists of the changes to petrol that will happen correct for deficiencies and replace references to EU this summer and directs vehicle owners to the online directives following the UK’s exit from the European compatibility checker, ensuring everyone can be clear Union. on the right fuel for their vehicle or equipment. Introducing E10 allows us to cut carbon emissions The SI also makes amendments that are required from cars, motorbikes and other petrol-powered following our departure from the European Union. equipment in use today.This is done by simply increasing We have replaced references to EU legislation with the limit to which renewable fuel can be blended into references to domestic legislation to ensure the ongoing standard petrol. It is one of the very few measures operability of the fuel standards. It is also important available to us today with an immediate impact. to note that, as a result of this amendment, all petrol E10 is a proven fuel that is already in use across the supplied in the UK will still meet the same standards world, including in France, Belgium, the Netherlands as apply across Europe. and the US, to name but a few. We also have a valuable In proposing this statutory instrument, the Government bioethanol industry in the UK that will benefit from have carefully considered a balance of interests. It increased demand; indeed, following our policy recognises the need to maximise our efforts to decarbonise announcement, one large facility operator has already vehicles on the road today and support our domestic announced that it is recommencing production. These renewable fuel industry, while maintaining access to a facilities play important roles in their local economy, suitable petrol grade for all. I believe introducing E10 employing hundreds of skilled workers directly and petrol this September strikes that balance. I beg to move. supporting thousands of jobs in the wider community. That community includes the agricultural sector, 5.17 pm with locally grown feed wheat used to produce ethanol. Lord Lucas (Con) [V]: My Lords, I am grateful to By-products, such as high-protein animal feed, are my noble friend for that exposition of the regulations. used by livestock farmers in place of soya products. It I hope that her colleagues in the Department for is vital to support these industries as we endeavour to Transport will take the opportunity, over the next few build back greener, with low-carbon industrial hubs months, to listen to their colleagues in Defra because crucial to our path towards net zero by 2050. at the same time as considering this measure we are Introducing E10 is part of a wider set of measures taking the Environment Bill through the House, which to encourage renewable fuels. Overall renewable fuel faces in a very different direction from that which blending is incentivised through the renewable transport underlies this measure. fuel obligation, or RTFO, obligating larger fuel suppliers Biofuels, as in taking human food and burning it in to supply renewable fuels. However, because the RTFO vehicles,are a scam. They cause much more environmental allows for different ways to meet targets, it has proven damage than alternatives and are absolutely not the insufficient to remove market barriers for the introduction way we should be going. Biodiesel, for instance, seems of specific fuel blends such as E10. to contain quite high proportions of palm oil, sourced As RTFO targets have increased over the past three from the expansion of palm oil plantations at the years, fuel suppliers are now blending very close to the expense of forests—putting “a tiger in your tank” in a 7% biodiesel limit for standard diesel and 5% bioethanol way that Esso never intended. Bioethanol involves limit for standard petrol. If we want to increase renewable taking food that could perfectly well be used by humans blending further, we need to take additional measures and burning it. It puts pressure on landscapes which now. While most diesel vehicles are approved to use could well be used for rewilding and to bring nature only a maximum of 7% biodiesel, known as B7, the back into this country, in a way that the Environment vast majority of petrol vehicles—over 95%—are cleared Bill majors on. I would welcome an integrated approach to use E10 petrol. Our immediate focus is therefore to where we get our transport fuel from. on E10. The basic direction in favour of electric must be Fuel suppliers and retailers have made it clear to us right; getting electricity from sources other than the that, for technical reasons related to vapour pressure, destruction of the environment must also be right. I the best time to introduce E10 is at the same time as very much hope that this is the high-water mark of the change from summer to winter fuel specification. a failed European policy and that we will see no This happens every September. To ensure we reap the more of it. GC 451 Motor Fuel Regulations 2021[12 JULY 2021] Motor Fuel Regulations 2021 GC 452

5.19 pm The impact assessment warns that ethanol could at least temporarily replace other biofuels such as biodiesel, Baroness Randerson (LD): My Lords, these regulations which has a higher greenhouse gas saving. Even if this involve the transition from E5 to E10 for premium does not happen, it will enable the Government to petrol. I thank the Minister and her officials for their achieve only 7% of their additional transport savings previous assistance and help in explaining the purpose required under their fifth carbon budget. That leaves of these regulations. However, I share the concerns 93% to be tackled by other means. just expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas. My question to the Minister is: why are the The Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee has Government not being bolder? We no longer have to some harsh things to say about the way the regulations wait and work at the pace of the EU. EU targets are have been presented. It says that more than a decade old and have certainly led to … “issues are raised in the Impact Assessment that are glossed significant improvements, but we now face real urgency over in the Explanatory Memorandum”. to do something in this country. There is still another Specifically, the committee cites 14 years of sales of petrol and diesel vehicles before “the role of E10 in propping up the UK’s struggling ethanol the Government’s 2035 target comes into view. The production sector”. Government must devise new ways to counter the The impact assessment mentions the reason for this increase in average emissions from new cars as drivers problem being lower than expected demand for ethanol opt for larger vehicles. Despite the technology being across Europe. What are regarded as the reasons for there, the emissions are going up on average—not this lower than expected demand? It may be that there down, as they should be. is a sound reason for that, which could be increasing Far-distant targets are not effective. We now need awareness of the disadvantages of ethanol as a solution annual targets so that there is a constant process of to the problem of how to make our petrol less polluting improvement. We need a system of tax rewards and by reducing emissions from it, or it could involve other penalties to encourage faster take-up of the less polluting European countries finding an alternative solution. models, with the greatest rewards for those buying The second thing the committee cites is ZEVs. “comparative CO2 savings from ethanol and other biofuels.” It believes that there needs to be more clarity here. 5.26 pm Thirdly, the committee talks about Lord Rosser (Lab) [V]: I once again thank the “the long term costs to motorists as E10 delivers lower miles per Minister for her explanation of the purpose and content gallon.” of these regulations. As she said, to reduce greenhouse Taking this last point, although a gallon of E10 petrol gas emissions, premium petrol in the UK is currently might emit less CO2 than E5 petrol, if it burns faster blended with up to 5% ethanol, known as E5 grade. and allows you to do fewer miles per gallon, surely the These regulations require the ethanol content to be CO2 savings are all but, if not entirely, cancelled out? increased to up to 10%, E10 grade, with effect from The picture is further complicated by the fact that E10 1 September this year, to meet future emissions targets. can actually be anything between E5.5 and E10, so E10 petrol has been approved for sale in the UK since changes or improvements are likely to be gradual. Is 2011 but no supplier has chosen to move above 5%. the Minister convinced that this is really the right way The E10 petrol requirement will apply only to filling to go to reduce CO2 emissions? Are the Government stations with an annual fuel throughput of over 1 million convinced and confident that this is not their version litres per annum. What percentage of petrol sales by of Gordon Brown’s ill-conceived push to encourage us litres is through filling stations with an annual fuel all to buy diesel cars? throughput of 1 million litres or less per annum? The Minister says that the industry supports this The E10 requirement is that premium 95 grade measure. It would, would it not? The ethanol industry petrol contains at least 5.5% ethanol all year round, is said to be struggling, so it would be bound to but how does that help us reach blending of up to support this measure. The Government also say that 10% in a meaningful way? What is the Government’s the industry will not introduce E10 unless mandated objective with these regulations as far as the E10 level by the Government. I am concerned that the Government of blending with ethanol is concerned, because are being led by the industry rather than by the 5.5% seems an inadequate increase from the current environmental needs of the country and the needs of requirement? drivers. As the Minister said, biofuel blending levels are Clearly, I support efforts to reduce greenhouse gas generally driven by a separate government scheme, the emissions from transport, which are now the largest renewable transport fuel obligation, with the next single source of those emissions in the UK, but the RTFO increases planned for 1 January next year. The nobleLord,LordLucas,rightlycriticisedthefundamentals Explanatory Memorandum indicates that during the of this.Ethanol production is mainly from crop feedstocks: period between these regulations taking effect on wheat, sugar beet or corn. This is controversial as it 1 September 2021 and the RTFO amendments in takes up farmland that could be used for growing January 2022, the policy will cost the motorist around food. We are increasingly aware of the importance of £87 million per year and decrease CO2 savings. The growing more of our own food in the UK and relying Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee queried less on imports because their environmental footprint why the start of these regulations could not be aligned is larger. Biodiesel is made from waste cooking oil, but with the complementary increase in the RTFO targets the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, pointed to problems with from 1 January next year, or alternatively why the date that too. of the RTFO target increase could not be changed. GC 453 Motor Fuel Regulations 2021[LORDS] Motor Fuel Regulations 2021 GC 454

[LORD ROSSER] assessment concludes that fuel costs for petrol cars are The committee accepted that the Department for estimated to increase by 2.3% as a result of moving Transport’s response on these two points was persuasive from 5% to 10% ethanol content, meaning additional but said it would have been even more convincing fuel-supply costs to consumers of E10 petrol of if the relative costs of the extra disruption to the £701 million over 10 years because of the reduced industry miles per gallon. Further costs of £169 million over “were estimated for comparison with the impact on the consumer 10 years are estimated for consumers whose vehicles and on CO2 savings.” will accept only E5 petrol. Could the Government Can the Government now provide that estimate of the clarify what the position is? Are the additional costs to relative costs of the extra disruption to the industry if motorists transitional until RTFO targets can be increased, the existing schemes were synchronised for this as per the Explanatory Memorandum, or are they changeover? long-term, as per the impact assessment? The SLSC commented that while the Explanatory Lastly, the SLSC concludes that the Explanatory Memorandum indicates a negative impact on consumers Memorandum presents a rather sketchy view of the during the changeover period, the impact assessment rationale for, and the consequences of, the proposed indicates that, due to lead times, the effects of change to E10 petrol, and recommends that whenever implementing the two regulations separately may not the policy requires an impact assessment it should be be as great as they first appear. The committee said made available alongside the published draft, which that the reply on this point from the Department for did not happen in respect of these regulations. What Transport made the consequences of transition to E10 consideration have the Government given to this less clear, and suggested that this House might wish recommendation from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny to ask the Minister for a clearer view of the effects Committee? of introducing the two sets of regulations three months apart. I am now asking the Minister for that 5.33 pm clearer view. Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con) [V]: I thank all The SLSC said that issues raised in the impact noble Lords for their contributions to today’s debate. I assessment, as the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, also thank the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee has said, had been glossed over in the Explanatory for raising various matters, a number of which have Memorandum on the instrument—issues such as been echoed by noble Lords today. Most recently the the role of E10 in propping up the UK’s struggling noble Lord, Lord Rosser, mentioned that the impact assessment was not published alongside the draft SI. ethanol production sector, the comparative CO2 savings from ethanol and other biofuels, and the long-term That impact assessment was already a public document, costs to motorists as E10 delivers lower miles per but we will certainly take that away and I hope that gallon. will not happen again. Perhaps we should make sure that we signpost noble Lords to previously published On the UK’s ethanol production sector, capacity documents where we possibly can. has regularly been seriously underutilised. Significant A number of issues have been raised, and I will of amounts of bioethanol supplied under the RTFO course write with further details if I am unable to come from outside the UK. UK producers have said cover them in my remarks. This is very much a question that if the UK does not introduce E10, it is likely that of balance; there is an awful lot of balance to be had the domestic industry may not remain viable. Could here. Anybody working in the field of transport knows the Government spell out in their response, with some that there is no silver bullet to solve carbon emissions specific facts and figures, the impact of E10 on the in transport. The solution will be in a large number of UK’s ethanol production sector? interventions, some of which will have to happen over The SLSC commented that the Explanatory a large period of time. We will be publishing the Memorandumwasbasedontheassumptionthatincreased transport decarbonisation plan fairly soon, and that ethanol content by changing to E10 was the only way will set out the firm foundation on which our thinking forward. However, the impact assessment indicates is based. that the greenhouse gas savings from the additional I shall start by addressing the wider focus on E10, ethanol are lower than the savings from other biofuels which is the last low-hanging-fruit option for renewable such as waste-derived biodiesel, but concludes that, fuel blending. Again, it is about balance: it works provided that the RTFO target is suitably adjusted, alongside the RTFO. There are literally no other short- E10 will result in longer-term reductions in greenhouse term options for reducing emissions from road transport gas emissions. Could the Government explain why immediately, so we have to consider not only the blending petrol with ethanol is perceived as the most balance of what the intervention is but how quickly it effective way to reduce greenhouse gases, taking account can achieve the goals that we need to achieve. We of all the environmental considerations to which reference know that using waste biodiesel blended from fossil has been made? diesel saves more carbon dioxide per litre than bioethanol. The Explanatory Memorandum appears to suggest That is true but we are up to the limit on biodiesel—up that the additional costs to motorists of the switch to 7%. Our only option now is therefore to increase from E5 to E10 will be transitional, since those costs petrol to E10. We also know that the vast majority of and the decrease in CO2 savings will be only until the cars can use E10 successfully. RTFO targets can be increased, yet the impact assessment The interaction with the RTFO is really important. indicates there will be significant long-term costs to I noted that there are many reasons why the gap has consumers because E10 fuel is less efficient. The impact arisen between the E10 implementation and the changes GC 455 Motor Fuel Regulations 2021[12 JULY 2021] Motor Fuel Regulations 2021 GC 456 to the RTFO, including the technical reasons relating reduced. That is why this has to happen along with the to the vapour pressure and the switchover of the type changes to RTFO targets from the start of next year; of petrol that is sold on the forecourt. However, we again, it is all about balance. also know that the RTFO target can be changed only Turning to the costs and the impact on the motorist, at the start of each calendar year because it is a although we believe blending the petrol at E10 is market-based scheme; participants will of course plan unlikely to alter the pump price of standard 95 octane their compliance through the whole of the year, so if petrol, as the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, pointed we changed it mid-year it would be the same as a out, drivers might experience a small reduction in retrospective change and therefore deeply unwelcome. miles per gallon. This will vary quite significantly by So the introduction of E10 in September, followed by vehicle and the specific fuel blend used by that supplier, increasing the targets in January, allows for a transition as well as the driving style. The overall reduction in phase. We expect that during this phase blending will miles per gallon is similar to driving with the aircon be ramped up, and that existing fuel stocks will be on, or with underinflated tyres. used up. Based on simplified assumptions and a potential It is worth noting, as did the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, worst-case scenario, the impact assessment estimated and the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, that the fuel that each litre of E10 could contain around 1.7% less for E10 can be from ethanol of 5.5% upwards. This energy, which could result in increased fuel costs of flexibility is intentional to ensure that the overall around £70 million per annum. However, the industry RTFO targets can be delivered cost-effectively, based has also suggested that there could be a change to the on market prices for different biofuel options, and to energy content, because different blends have different allow for seasonal and geographic variations. There energy content according to the constituent parts of would be no point in mandating immediately a much the petrol. This assumption could therefore be very higher percentage for blended petrol. much the worst-case scenario. On incompatible vehicles, we again feel that there Furthermore, the changes were made under two will be a very limited impact. Of the 5% of vehicles different pieces of legislation and different powers, that are currently incompatible, the vast majority are so that has had an impact on how we can introduce classic or cherished vehicles, so fewer than 1% of the this measure.There is of course a need for a comprehensive cars that are everyday run-arounds cannot use E10. As communications campaign, so there was always a I have mentioned, we will make sure that E5 petrol will need too for a date, at some stage in future, in order be available to owners of incompatible vehicles. It that consumers are well aware of what they will be should also be remembered that those who own classic buying when they go to the pumps in September. or cherished cars often use the higher super grade I turn to the carbon savings in the four-month anyway, so they will see no difference in price. Again, transition period between the introduction of E10 and the estimate of £70 million that might be added to fuel the increase of the RTFO targets at the beginning of costs is very much a worst-case scenario. It assumes next year. The impact assessment did not specifically that all incompatible vehicles currently do not use the model the impact of the four-month period between super grade, and we know that is not the case. these two interventions. A snapshot of the annual I turn to the bioethanol sector. The noble Baroness, modelling suggests costs of around £29 million, with Lady Randerson, suggested we were being led by the an emissions-saving reduction of around 0.07 megatonnes nose by industry. There are two different industries of carbon dioxide, but that shortfall in emissions savings here and they both want it, while being on slightly —if it happens, because again these are assumptions— different sides of the coin. We have the bioethanol would be recouped by the end of January next year industry and the traditional fossil fuel suppliers, and following the RTFO target rise. As I say, there will be a those suppliers want us to give them a kick because in net overall carbon dioxide benefit of around 0.73 Germany they did not give the industry a kick and megatonnes by the end of 2022. have not had a very successful rollout of E10. I have already mentioned that the bioethanol sector Exactly how the suppliers meet their RTFO obligations is a valued sector in this country and that, for the time at the end of 2021, and the speed with which they being, it is essential that we look at all different ways ramp up the ethanol blending, is unknown due to of reducing our carbon emissions. Bioethanol is one commercial sensitivities. However, we can say with of those and will provide highly skilled jobs and certainty that by introducing E10 we are maximising support the agricultural community, but I accept my the available capacity for biofuel blending in the coming noble friend Lord Lucas’s point that environmental years and providing the space to increase the RTFO concerns are also critical. Biofuels, supported under targets as a step change in 2022. the RTFO, comply with strict sustainability and minimum Noble Lords have noted that biofuels produce different greenhouse gas savings criteria. There are protections emissions reductions from their fossil fuel comparator. for biodiversity and land use change,such as deforestation. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, mentioned the impact of I will probably write more in a letter because I am blending biodiesel. It is often made from used, or aware that I am running out of time. waste, cooking oil and saves more carbon dioxide per These regulations are about balance. We need to unit of energy delivered than for ethanol, although the balance the need to maximise our efforts to decarbonise difference is relatively small. As a result, where ethanol vehicles on the road today and support our domestic displaces waste biodiesel in the fuel mix delivered renewable fuel industry, while maintaining access to a under the RTFO, the actual emission saved can be suitable petrol grade for all. I believe that we have GC 457 Motor Fuel Regulations 2021[LORDS] Motor Fuel Regulations 2021 GC 458

[BARONESS VERE OF NORBITON] The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Faulkner achieved that balance and that by introducing them of Worcester) (Lab): That completes the business before now, with changes to the RTFO in January, we will the Grand Committee this afternoon. I remind Members achieve our ambitions. to sanitise their desks and chairs before leaving the Room. Motion agreed. Committee adjourned at 5.44 pm.