Acknowledgement or Avoidance? German-Canadian Immigrant
Women's Memories of National Socialism
By
Crystal Leochko -
A thesis submitted to the Faculty of Graduate Studies of
The University of Manitoba
In partial fulfillment of the requirements of the degree of
MASTER OF ARTS
Department of History Joint Master's Programme University of Manitoba/University of Winnipeg Winnipeg
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Acknowledgement or Avoidance? German-Canadian Immigrant Women's Memories of National Socialism
BY
Crystal Leochko
A Thesis/Practicum submitted to the Faculty of Graduate Studies of The University of
Manitoba in partial fulfillment of the requirement of the degree
Of
MASTER OF ARTS
Department of History Joint Master's Program University of Manitoba/University of Winnipeg Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Crystal Leochko©2009
Permission has been granted to the University of Manitoba Libraries to lend a copy of this thesis/practicum, to Library and Archives Canada (LAC) to lend a copy of this thesis/practicum, and to LAC's agent (UMI/ProQuest) to microfilm, sell copies and to publish an abstract of this thesis/practicum.
This reproduction or copy of this thesis has been made available by authority of the copyright owner solely for the purpose of private study and research, and may only be reproduced and copied as permitted by copyright laws or with express written authorization from the copyright owner. Acknowledgements
Without the stories of the women themselves, this thesis could not have been possible. I would
like to thank the ten women interviewed for this study. Some of the interviews took place over the phone, but I also was lucky enough to meet the women who lived in Manitoba, and was
invited into their homes. On most visits I was also provided with German baking to sample. I
am happy to be able to share their stories in this study.
I would like to thank my advisor, Dr. Alexander Freund, for his advice and guidance during this
process. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction, and continually answering my many
emails.
I would also like to thank my parents for their continued love and support. Also, thanks to the
rest of my family (both Leochko & Johnston) for their support and motivation.
Finally, I would like to thank Kevin for his unfailing love and encouragement. Thanks for
always giving me that "push" that I needed.
i Abstract
This study examines oral histories from ten women who immigrated to Canada from
Germany between 1947 and 1960.
The main topics of this thesis are: The League of German Girls (BDM); anti-Semitism in
Germany, encounters with Jews in Canada and multiculturalism; and how the women in this study remembered feeling about World War II while they lived in Nazi Germany and after living in Canada.
After living in Canada for the past 40 to 60 years the women did not fully deal with their pasts. Although the women were able to discuss the topics in this study and have discussed their experiences in Germany with family and friends, in many of these situations the women presented themselves as victims. They also concentrated on the more positive aspects of the
Nazi regime, including the camaraderie in the BDM, and made it a point to emphasize that they did not know about the Holocaust while they were girls. It is important to remember that myths in life stories, the effect of the interviewer, and the repression of painful events including bombing and rape impacted the women's responses during their interviews. When discussing anti-Semitism and multiculturalism the women often responded with what they thought I wanted to hear. Despite this, by participating in the study and by discussing their memories and experiences, and in some cases their changing views of the past, the women demonstrated that they are making progress in the process of dealing with their pasts as Germans.
u Table of Contents
Acknowledgements i Abstract ii Chapter One: Introduction 1 Chapter Two: The BDM and the Women's Recollection of Both the BDM and Their Involvement 26 Experiences in the BDM 26 Women's Memories of Their Involvement in the BDM 32 Conclusion 45 Chapter Three: Women's Views of "The Other" 48 Anti-Semitism in Germany 48 Encounters with Jews in Canada 73 Women's Views of Multiculturalism 84 Conclusion 95 Chapter Four: Memories of the War 99 The Outbreak of the Second World War and German Morale 101 War Losses 103 The Women's Views of the War as Girls 118 The Women's Views of the War after Living in Canada 127 Remembrance Day Ceremonies in Canada 134 Conclusion 138 Chapter Five: Conclusion 142 Appendix 148 Biographies of the Women Interviewed 148 List of Interview Questions 151 Release Form for Scholarly Research 152 Bibliography 154
Hi Chapter One
Introduction
This thesis explores the memories often women who experienced National Socialism in
Germany during the Second World War and later immigrated to Canada. The main question of this thesis is whether living in Canadian society affected how they dealt with their German pasts.
How did life in Canada affect the women's understanding of their lives in Nazi Germany? Did
life in Canada allow the women to deal with their pasts as Germans, or did living in Canada provide the women with a way to avoid facing their German pasts? This question has been neglected in German-Canadian history and needs to be addressed before the generation who experienced and can still recall the Nazi period disappears.
This thesis fills a gap in German-Canadian historiography, as there is a lack of studies regarding German women and their adaptation to Canadian society. According to Ruth Gumpp,
for many years there was a lack of interest in Germany regarding emigration, as well as German minorities abroad.1 This slowly changed as more scholars became interested in the topic of
German-Canadian immigrants. While this field has begun to be explored, few studies have been
conducted using the oral histories of German immigrant women in Canada.
One study that focuses on German immigrants in Canada is historian Alexander Freund's recent study on 80 Germans who immigrated to Canada and the United States during the late
1940s and 1950s and their ways of dealing with the Nazi past and their relationships with Jewish
North Americans.2 He discovered that in North America "the national narrative did not allow
German immigrants to integrate their experiences into the nation and that no interpretive
1 Ruth Gumpp, "Ethnicity and Assimilation: German Postwar Immigrants in Vancouver, 1945-1970" (M.A. Thesis, University of British Columbia, 1989): 4.
1 template emerged that would have enabled them to reinterpret their memories to make them fit the national story." According to Freund, it was "in personal, everyday encounters with other
Canadians that Germans were more directly confronted with the Nazi past."4 However, through my research I found that in many ways it was daily living in Canada which allowed the German immigrants to avoid their past, especially those women who had little or no contact with Jewish people once in Canada. While some of the women in Freund's study immigrated to Canada as domestics and worked in Jewish households, none of the women in this study did. For many of them, their daily life did not require them to associate with Jews. As the women were busy trying to learn a new language, new customs, and focusing on daily survival, they were able to avoid confronting the Nazi past in Canada.
Freund found that most of the German immigrants accepted Canada's demand for assimilation.5 Hans Werner also found that Germans rapidly adopted a neutral Canadian identity, while Gisela Forchner states that "one of the most obvious differences in the evolution of the German immigrant families can be found in the speed with which they undergo the process of cultural transition."6 Gerhard Bassler also concluded that there was a rapid linguistic assimilation of German Canadians.7
There are many reasons why Germans tried to assimilate into Canadian society immediately after immigration. Gisela Forchner found that Germans in Canada tried to become
See Alexander Freund, "Troubling Memories in Nation-building: World War II Memories and Germans' Inter- ethnic Encounters in Canada after 1945," Histoire sociale/Social History 39.77 (May 2006): 129-155. 3 Ibid., 154. 4 Ibid., 145. 5 Alexander Freund, "Immigrants' Identities: The Narratives of a German-Canadian Migration," xnA Chorus of Different Voices: German-Canadian Identities, eds. Angelika E. Sauer and Matthias Zimmer (New York: Peter Lang, 1998), 202. 6 Gisela Forchner, "Growing up Canadian: Twelve Case Studies of German Immigrant Families in Alberta" (Ph. D. diss., University of Alberta, 1983): 208. Gerhard Bassler, "German Canadian Studies Tomorrow: A Historian's Perspective," in Annalen 8: German Canadian Studies in the Nineties (Toronto: German Canadian Historical Association, 1992), 123.
2 exemplary Canadians due to the discrimination they suffered as a reaction to the cruelties committed during the Third Reich.8 Even today, German-Canadians are still affected by what they experienced in Canada after immigration. Historian Angelika Sauer argues that "at the center of German-Canadian identity today lies the perception of victimization, stigmatization, and discrimination."9 Matthias Zimmer believes that the identity of Germans was tainted by the historical experience of the Holocaust and National Socialism, which also impacted German communities living outside of Germany. In fact, according to Zimmer, the idea of German-
Canadian identity seems to rest on an essential notion of Germanness, a sense of identity all
Germans share.10 When confronted with Canadian society, some German immigrants desired stability and recreation. According to Hans Werner, church, language, and associations became arenas for forging new identities.n Werner also believes that new views of being German and
Canadian developed in Canada. I believe that women who immigrated to Canada from
Germany created a special "German-Canadian" identity. As the women immigrated to Canada when they were fairly young, at the time of their interview the majority felt more Canadian than
German. As well, after arriving in Canada and learning new information about National
Socialism, many of them sought to distance themselves from their Germanness. Despite this, the women retained some aspects of their German culture, including their food and language, at least to some extent.
"Forchner, 13. 9 Angelika E. Sauer, "The 'Ideal German Canadian': Politics, Academics, and the Historiographies Construction of German-Canadian Identity," in A Chorus of Different Voices, eds. Sauer and Zimmer, 236. 10 Matthias Zimmer, "Deconstructing German-Canadian Identity," in ,4 Chorus of Different Voices, eds. Sauer and Zimmer, 25. 11 Hans P. Werner, "'Kinder, Kiiche, Kirche': Recreating Identity in Postwar Canada," in A Chorus of Different Voices, eds. Sauer and Zimmer, 219.
3 Gisela Bock, writing in 1991, stated that women were finally rendered visible in the previous two decades. Women are being studied in greater numbers. Feminist historians have sought accounts of women's experience in women's own voices.12 Similarly, feminist sociologists believe that we must begin with real people and their lives.B According to historian
Judith M. Bennett, women's history is simply about women, rather than being concerned in a feminist way with "the problem of women's oppression."14 When studying women, different aspects of their lives are examined as they had different experiences than men. Women's
"experiences and realities have been systematically different from men's in crucial ways."15
Women tend to focus on different topics than men do. Women usually focus on the home and family, while men usually focus on stories of their own heroism. The women in this study discussed events such as bombing, flight, and rape.
By examining the German women who immigrated to Canada, this thesis also fills a gap in Canadian women's history. While some studies focus on the adaptation of female immigrants to Canadian society, few focus on German female immigrants. One study that focuses on
German women who immigrated to Canada is Marlene Epp's study of Mennonite refugees who immigrated from the Soviet Union to Paraguay and Canada after the Second World War. The families that immigrated were mainly female-headed. Epp found that the refugees who settled in
Paraguay continued as a separate community, while those who immigrated to Canada did not.16
12 Ruth Roach Pierson, "Experience, Difference, Dominance and Voice in the Writing of Canadian Women's History," in Writing Women's History: International Perspectives, eds. Karen Offen, Ruth Roach Pierson and Jane Rendall (Bloomington and Indianapolis: Indiana University, 1991), 85. "Anderson et ai, "Beginning Where We Are,"107. 14 Judith M. Bennett, "Comment on Tilly: Who Asks the Questions for Women's History?" Social Science History, Vol. 13, No. 4 (Winter, 1989): 472. 15 Kathryn Anderson, et al., "Beginning Where We Are: Feminist Methodology in Oral History," Oral History Review 15 (Spring 1987): 106. 16 Marlene Epp, Women Without Men: Mennonite Refugees of the Second World War (Toronto: Toronto University Press, 2000), 192.
4 There have been some studies on female immigrants in Canada of other nationalities.
Historian Frances Swyripa examined Ukrainian female immigrants that came to Canada and their process of adaptation to Canadian society. She found that "baba" became a symbol of Ukrainian ethnicity in Canada.17 Historian Franca Iacovetta found that southern Italian women played a large role in their family's immigration to post-World War n Toronto and that, to a remarkable degree the families "preserved traditional cultural forms and familial arrangements and thereby resisted disintegration."18 In addition, sociologist Pamela Sugiman studied Japanese Canadian women and their silences regarding the internment of themselves and their families during the
Second World War in Canada. Sugiman found that these Japanese women created a Japanese
Canadianness in their new country.19 By introducing studies of German Canadian immigrant women into this context, it will be possible to analyze how German Canadians adapted to
Canadian society.
The women who immigrated to Canada were affected by their childhood in Germany under the Nazi regime. The Nazi state taught German girls that their role was to grow up to become women and mothers who "know about the necessities of life in the German nation and act accordingly."20 This thesis examines how their lives in Canada affected their memories of their lives in Germany, as well as how it affected their view of Jews and other immigrants.
In the 1980s a debate took place amongst women historians regarding "Aryan" women and whether or not they were responsible for what happened in the Third Reich. One theory in
17 Frances Swyripa, "Outside the Bloc Settlement: Ukrainian Women in Ontario during the Formative Years of Community Consciousness," in Looking into My Sister's Eyes: An Exploration in Women's History, ed. Jean Burnet (Toronto: The Multicultural History Society of Ontario, 1986), 155. 18 Franca Iacovetta, "From Contadina to Worker: Southern Italian Immigrant Working Women in Toronto, 1947- \962," m Looking into My Sister's Eyes, ed. Burnet, 215. 19 Pamela Sugiman, "Memories of Internment: Narrating Japanese Canadian Women's Life Stories," Canadian Journal of Sociology/Cahiers canadiens de sociologie, Vol. 29, No. 3. (Summer 2004): 379. 20 Kimberly A. Redding, Growing up in Hitler's Shadow: Remembering Youth in Postwar Berlin (Westport: Praeger, 2004), 53.
5 the debate was that women were just as responsible for the rise of Hitler before 1933 and for what happened in the Third Reich. Claudia Koonz "claimed a role of perpetratorship or at least complicity for non-persecuted German women, while Gisela Bock classified even racially privileged women as victims."21 Koonz argues that these women were able to make important decisions on their own.22 According to Jill Stephenson, women in Nazi Germany's women's organization, the NS-Frauenschaft, operated independently of the male leadership, which proved that they were considered important.23 Some of the women interviewed in this study saw themselves as victims. Not all of the women interviewed in this study saw the women's and girls' groups as important in the Third Reich as Stephenson does. While many women and girls did join the groups, they made few decisions regarding the activities that they participated in.
The League of German Girls, (Bund Deutscher Model or BDM) was the National
Socialist organization for girls aged ten to 21. This organization, along with the boys' section, formed the Hitler Youth (Hitler-Jugend). While the girls took part in a number of activities such as camping, sports, and song-singing, the primary aim of the BDM was geared towards teaching the girls how to be good Nazi women. Historian Michael H. Kater views the Hitler Youth and
BDM as a way in which Hitler was able to take children away fromth e influence of parents and teachers by moving them to rural areas to learn, therefore alienating children fromthei r parents.24
Few women in my study became alienated from their parents because of the BDM, although in some cases women who were not allowed to participate felt resentful towards their parents during their youth.
21 Elizabeth Heineman, "Gender, Sexuality, and Coming to Terms with the Nazi Past," Central European History Review, Vol. 38, Issue 1 (2005): 56. Claudia Koonz, Mothers in the Fatherland: Women, the Family, and Nazi Politics (New York: St. Martin's, 1986), 5. Jill Stephenson, The Nazi Organization of Women (London: Croom Helm, 1981), 83. 24 Michael H. Kater, Hitler Youth (Cambridge: Harvard University, 2004), 46.
6 Historian Dagmar Reese examined the link between social conditions and the subjective experiences of the generation of girls and female youth who participated in the National Socialist youth organizations. Reese also examined the roles of girls and boys in Nazi Germany.
According to Reese, "girls were deployed as laborers in agriculture, for labor and war relief service, for travelers' aid at train stations, in collections, as assistants in kindergartens, and even as conductors on streetcars."25 Although later in the Nazi period girls were given greater duties, the women in this study mainly remembered the BDM as a type of "Girl Scout" group in which they performed good deeds such as recycling and helping seniors26 rather than a group that played a large role in either the war or the extermination of the Jews.
In Germany the process of "coming to terms" with the Nazi past is also known as
Vergangenheitsbewaltigung.21 This study will add to the literature on whether or not Germans that immigrated to Canada after the Second World War dealt with their German pasts, specifically German responsibility for the crimes committed under National Socialism. Historian
Robert Moeller questions what coming to terms with the past meant for Germany. He states that although there are still Germans who resist anyone who reminds them of the crimes in their national history, by the 1990s there was a movement towards understanding daily life under
National Socialism. According to Moeller, "to be meaningful, the politics of memory must continually craft strong connections among individuals, the contemporary context, and historical events that fewer and fewer Germans directly experienced."28 According to Dan Bar-On and
Fatma Kassen, working through enables people who suffered traumatic experiences to learn to
25 Dagmar Reese, Growing up Female in Nazi Germany, trans. William Templer (Ann Arbor: The University of Michigan, 2006), 6. 26 See Marianne Clemens, interview by author, 3 November 2007, Oakbank, Manitoba, tape recording. 27 Jeffrey K. Olick, "What Does it Mean to Normalize the Past? Official Memory in German Politics Since 1989," Social Science History, Vol. 22, No. 4, Special Issue: Memory and the Nation (Winter 1998): 549.
7 live with those painful events while they developed an ability to listen to the pain of the
"other".29 Jeffrey Olick questions "what it means to normalize the past". He discusses the preference in Germany for "working through the past" (Aufarbeitung der Vergangenheit) over
"mastering the past" (Vergangenheitsbewaltigung).30 Olick sees mastering the past as silencing it.
It is also important to remember that the 12 years of Nazi rule "do not exhaust the extent of the German past."31 The women who immigrated to Canada in this study arrived between
1947 and 1960. While most remembered few details of their lives in Germany before the Nazis assumed power, they had many experiences in Germany before they left for Canada. According to historian Jonathan Wagner, it is important to analyze the women's European background in order to analyze the German in Canada.32 It is necessary to examine the women's experiences in
Germany in order to examine how living in Canada affected their memories of the Nazi period.
In this study the often controversial term "coming to terms" is not used. Instead, the term "dealing with the past" is used in determining whether or not the women understood the wrongs committed under National Socialism and acknowledged German responsibility for the
Holocaust. Women who dealt with the past understood and acknowledged the role they played in Nazi Germany, be it as a member of the BDM or a girl who noticed Jews disappearing. I believe that in order to deal with the past you must have the courage to confront it. Immigrants
8 Robert G. Moeller. "Review Article: What Has 'Coming to Terms With the Past' Meant in Post-World War II Germany? From History to Memory to the 'History of Memory'," Central European History, Vol. 35, No. 2 (2002): 254. 29 Dan Bar-On and Fatma Kassem, "Storytelling as a Way to Work Through Intractable Conflicts: The German- Jewish Experience and Its Relevance to the Palestinian-Israeli Context," Journal of Social Issues, Vol. 60, No. 2 (2004): 289. io Olick, 548-9. 31 Ibid, 553. 32 Jonathan Wagner, "Research Spin-Offs in German-Canadian History," in German-Canadian Studies in the 1980s: Symposium 1983, eds. Michael S. Batts, Walter Riedel and Rodney Symington (Vancouver: CAUTG, 1983), 33.
8 who dealt with their pasts as Germans do not see themselves as the only victims in Nazi
Germany, but are aware of the extent that others, including Jews, suffered under Hitler's regime.
Dealing with the past also involves the question of responsibility. Do these German immigrant women see themselves as victims or perpetrators of the Nazi regime? Or do they see themselves as neither? After the war Germans put the majority of guilt on Hitler. Historian
Jeffrey Herf believes that even the toleration of the crimes which Hitler committed means that
Germans have some responsibility for what occurred. The role they believe they played in
Nazi Germany will affect how they dealt with the past. As historian Elizabeth Heineman states, women's narratives often emphasize their sufferings and losses and downplay their contributions to and rewards from the Nazi regime.34 Even six decades after the end of World War II, some of the women did not want to delve too deeply into that period, or either forgot or incorrectly remembered some details.
In Germany the process of "coming to terms with the past" has been a lengthy process.
In Germany after World War JJ a total war effort was followed by a total defeat.35 After the war
Germans tried to make a new start. According to historian Bodo von Borries, "in the first decade after 1945, it seemed impossible for people to perceive themselves as perpetrators or as guilty of anything."36 From 1949 to 1959 many Germans put the Nazi past out of their minds. Studies have found that immediately after the war most Germans who lived through the Second World
Jeffrey Herf, Divided Memory: The Nazi Past in the Two Germanys (Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University, 1997), 52. 34 Elizabeth Heineman, "The Hour of the Woman: Memories of Germany's 'Crisis Years' and West German National Identity," The American Historical Review, Vol. 101, No. 2. (April 1996): 359. 35 O. Jean Brandes, "The Effect of War on the German Family," Social Forces, Vol. 29, No. 2 (December 1950): 164. 36 Bodo von Borries, "The Third Reich in German History Textbooks Since 1945," Journal of Contemporary History, Vol. 38, No. 1, Redesigning the Past (January 2003): 52.
9 War dwelled on their suffering during the war without examining its causes too deeply. Instead many of the survivors of Hitler's Germany perceived themselves as victims, while their former
enemies saw them as perpetrators.38
The 1960s saw a new phase of coming to terms with the past in West Germany. During this period the previous silence gave way to a public commemorative culture. Also new war crimes trials took place during this period, including the trial of Adolf Eichmann in Jerusalem in
1961. Due to these developments the young generation in Germany asked questions about their parent's involvement in the Nazi crimes.39 The silence was somewhat broken, allowing the new
generation to ask questions. Despite the changing atmosphere in Germany, it was not until the
1960s and 1970s that Germans understood National Socialism. Memories of the Germans as victims were challenged by accounts of Nazi crimes and the victimization of others by the
Germans. ^
The women in this study immigrated to Canada between 1947 and 1960 and did not experience the "coming to terms with the past" in Germany. Although few Germans immigrated to Canada immediately following the Second World War, by September 1950, "the entry of
German nationals was not only allowed, but expressly desired by the Canadian government, although Canada's state of war with Germany was not officially terminated until 9 July 1951."41
Numerous women decided to leave Germany to build a future for themselves in Canada. As the immigrants moved to Canada in the hopes of a better future, they also left their experiences in
37 Konrad H. Jarausch, "Removing the Nazi Stain? The Quarrel of the German Historians," German Studies Review, Vol. 11, No. 2 (May 1988): 286. 38 Omer Bartov, "Defining Enemies, Making Victims: Germans, Jews, and the Holocaust," The American Historical Review, Vol. 103, No. 3 (June 1998): 815. 39 Freund, "Troubling Memories in Nation-building," 138. 40 Robert G. Moeller, "War Stories: The Search for a Usable Past in the Federal Republic of Germany," The American Historical Review, Vol. 101, No. 4. (October 1996): 1013. 41 Gerhard Bassler, "Canadian Postwar Immigration Policy and the Admission of German Enemy Aliens," Yearbook of German-American Studies, Vol. 22 (1987): 194.
10 Nazi Germany behind them. After leaving Germany, did they deal with their pasts as Germans, or did the move allow the women to avoid it all together? Just taking part in this study is an indication that the women at least began to deal with their pasts. Despite this, from their
interviews and some silences or vague responses on certain subjects, it appears they did not fully complete the process.
Canada adopted the policy of multiculturalism officially in 1971. The term
"multicultural" is often used as a synonym for "ethnic" or "immigrant".42 Although Canada's policy of multiculturalism has been praised by some, it has also been criticized. According to
Patricia E. Roy, sociologist Reginald Bibby claims that by encouraging hyphenation and diversity, multiculturalism created "mosaic madness".43 This idea questions whether or not there
is enough to tie Canadians together as a group. Iacovetta states that multiculturalism's claim that people can be both different and equal is erroneous and is a fundamental flaw of the policy.44 At the time of the women's immigration the policy of multiculturalism was not in effect. The policy of multiculturalism as well as how the women viewed "others" in Canadian society will be
analyzed. At the time of the women's arrival to Canada, being of German descent was a stigma
in society. In that period "to be of German descent meant that one was under suspicion and
somehow co-responsible for the German crimes during both the First World War and the Nazi period."45 While some of the women interviewed saw multiculturalism as a good thing, others thought that new immigrants to Canada should adopt a "Canadian" way of life.
Patricia E. Roy, "The Fifth Force: Multiculturalism and the English Canadian Identity," Annals of the American Academy of Political and Social Science, Vol. 538, Being and Becoming Canada (March 1995): 200. 43 Ibid., 201. 44 Franca Iacovetta, Gatekeepers: Reshaping Immigrant Lives in Cold War Canada (Toronto: Between the Lines, 2006), 294. 45 Dieter Haselbach, "The Social Construction of Identity," in A Chorus of Different Voices, eds. Sauer and Zimmer, 6.
11 The women's memories were recorded using oral history interviews. Through oral history it is impossible to uncover past perceptions of the past, but instead it uncovers the women's reflections of the past at the time of their interview.46 By examining the women's memories of the past, including what they chose to recall and their reaction to those topics at the time of the interview, we can find out if they dealt with their pasts as Germans. As oral history is dependent upon fieldwork, we can go back time and again to our sources to ask them to tell us more.47 Oral history allows the women interviewed to leave a trace of themselves. This is important, as few German women that lived through the Nazi period and later immigrated to
Canada wrote autobiographies or memoirs. In this study the articles written by one of the women and the unpublished autobiography of another are used as additional sources of information. While these are relied on to some extent, especially when discussing the women's experiences in the Second World War, the information gained from these sources is minimal. As with oral histories, it is important to be conscious of the potential for myths in these sources.
According to Epp, written memoirs are more likely to produce myths than oral narratives because of their potential to be more public than oral histories.48
My research includes oral histories from women who were born between 1924 and 1941.
I interviewed women born in this time frame because studies have shown that "the earliest age at which children's eyewitness memory can be considered to be similar to that of adults is six years of age, when children's mental representational abilities are similar to those of adults."49 As
Alexander Freund, "Identity in Immigration: Self-Conceptualization and Myth in the Narratives of German Immigrant Women in Vancouver, B.C., 1950-1960" (M.A. thesis, Simon Fraser University, 1994): 105. 47 Ronald J. Grele, "Movement Without Aim: Methodological and Theoretical Problems in Oral History," in Envelopes of Sound: The Art of Oral History, ed. Ronald J. Grele (New York: Praeger, 1991), 141. 48 Epp, 14. 49 Leslie M. Templeton and Sharon A. Wilcox, "A Tale of Two Representations: The Misinformation Effect and Children's Developing Theory of Mind," Child Development, Vol. 71, No. 2 (March-April 2000): 402.
12 well, as this generation is getting older finding women who were older when the Nazis came to power is difficult.
Although ten women that lived in Nazi Germany and immigrated to Canada after the
Second World War were eventually found and took part in this study, the search for narrators was difficult at times. Two women originally were interested in the study, but after being sent a list of the interview questions decided not to take part. I also conducted one telephone interview that went well and in which I received some candid responses. However, after the woman read the transcript of the interview I received a letter asking for the interview to be destroyed, because the woman did not think it would be useful for my study. She could have believed that, or was too uncomfortable reading her responses to continue to take part.
Despite some minor setbacks such as this one, the majority of the women who took part in the study appeared to be excited by the project. For many of them, this was their opportunity for their voices to be heard and for their stories to be put down in writing. Although some interviews took place over the phone, as some of the narrators lived in Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Ontario, I was able to visit the remainder of the women interviewed in Manitoba. They invited me into their homes, offered me their baking, and in some cases provided me with their written stories and articles. Although the women appeared to accept me into their homes, it is important to note that many of the women became slightly guarded as soon as I turned on my tape recorder.
Edith Koch50 was born in 1935 in Eastern Germany. Koch could not remember her father's occupation, however she recalled that he was a prisoner after the war. She had two sisters and a brother. Her brother fought in the war. Koch's sister was a member of the BDM, but she herself was too young. Koch immigrated to Canada in 1953. During her interview Koch
13 stated that Hitler was good for the poor people of Germany. I received Koch's name from
someone at the Church of God in Winnipeg who responded to the email I sent requesting narrators for my study.
Agnes Weber51 was born in 192552 in Eastern Germany. Her family lived on a farm.
Weber was a member of the BDM and stated that she enjoyed her time in the group and remembered singing and marching. She had eight siblings. One of her brothers fought in the war and was wounded twice. During the war her family was forced to flee, and they went to
Hamburg. Weber immigrated to Canada in 1954. By that time she already had two children.
She decided to emigrate because finding work in Germany was difficult. Weber was Koch's sister-in-law. When I went to interview Koch, Weber was with her and was willing to take part in the interview.
Anne Boiler was born in 1924 in Bockenheim, Germany. She lived in Worms, located on the Rhine River, while growing up. Her mother was a Protestant and her father was a Catholic.
Boiler was one of seven children. Although she belonged to the BDM as a girl she rarely attended meetings or events as she was required to help her mother who was ill. Her father was a postal worker and Boiler also worked in the postal service in Germany. In 1953 Boiler immigrated to Red Cliff, Alberta. After immigration she worked in a greenhouse, where she met her husband, an immigrant from Switzerland. Boiler learned about my study fromth e pastor of her church and contacted me.
Pseudonym. 51 Pseudonym. 52 During her interview, Weber originally stated she was bom in 1935. When she was contacted later, it appeared that Weber had suffered memory loss and was unable to confirm my dates. I contacted her daughter, and was told that her date of birth was April 7, 1925, and that she was the third oldest child in her family. Two of her sisters were older than Weber.
14 Christa Janz was born on February 17,1936 in Wuppertal, Germany. Wuppertal is in the
Ruhr area. When the city was bombed in 1943 her family moved to Stuttgart. Her father was a mechanic and her mother was a housewife. Janz had two younger brothers. Her family attended a Lutheran Church in Germany. During the war Janz was too young to be a member of the BDM. Janz's father fought in the war, and was a prisoner of war after the war ended. Janz immigrated to Canada in 1959 to work as a secretary for Janz Team Ministries. She lived in
Calgary after immigration. She returned to Germany for a year, then went back to Canada and married her husband. After marriage the couple lived in the Peace River area of Alberta. Five years later the couple moved to Germany to do work for the mission. Janz also learned about my study fromon e of my emails requesting narrators, and contacted me.
Elfie Blankenagel was born on June 1,1928 in Berlin. Blankenagel was the oldest of nine children. Her father owned his own business, a blacksmith shop and iron work. During the war his shop was bombed out. Her father was a member of the Nazi Party until 1935.
Blankenagel was brought up by her wealthy aunt who married a Jew. As a child Blankenagel attended a Lutheran Church. She was not a member of the BDM. In 1954 she immigrated to
Canada. She originally lived in Ottawa, where she met her husband. Her husband was also from
Germany, and wanted to return there after marriage, but Blankenagel convinced him to stay in
Canada. A few years after they married the couple moved to Saskatoon, Saskatchewan. They had two children. The family spoke mainly English at home, as her husband was a university professor and they also wanted their children to learn English as their mother tongue. I received
Blankenagel's name and phone number from an individual who received my name and email address from the webmaster at Lutheranwomen.ca. Of the four names I received from this contact, Blankenagel was the only one who was eager to participate in the study.
15 Elizabeth Redekopp was born on February 16,1927 in Osterwick. The Russian name of this village was Pavlovka. In 1941 the Germans took over the village. Redekopp's family was
Mennonite. Her father was a farmer and her mother was a housewife. Redekopp was one of 13 children. Redekopp recalled taking part in the Second World War as a BDM maiden. This
group worked as maids, and also assisted with the military effort on the home front. After the war her family was placed in the English zone in Germany. Russia wanted Mennonites back, but the family worked on a farm until they immigrated to Canada in December of 1947. After
immigration she lived near Gretna and Rosenort before moving to Winnipeg to find a job.
Redekopp met her husband in Winnipeg. The couple had seven children. Even at the time of her
interview Redekopp was amazed that there were so many different people in Canada. I received
Redekopp's name from one of her daughters, who I work at the same office with.
Irma Meyer53 was born on August 13, 1936 in Romania. Her father was a farmer and her mother was a housewife. Her family attended Lutheran church. Meyer had two older brothers
and one younger sister. When Meyer was four years old her family lived in the Province of
Bessarabia. They were sent to Germany for a few months, then Lodz, and eventually resettled
on a farm in Poland. Before the family could leave Romania for Germany they had to prove that
they were "totally German". Meyer recalled being beat up on her way to and fromschoo l by the
Polish children, because her family took over a Polish farm. She recalled that the day her father joined the army was a very sad day. As she was born in 1936, Meyer was too young to be a
member of the BDM. In 1947 she relocated to Germany. In 1960 Meyer immigrated to
Medicine Hat, Alberta. She worked at a bank before going back to school to get her degree.
After teaching for a few years she went back to school to get her Masters, and eventually her
PhD. Meyer met her husband at church in Canada. Her husband was also from Romania. He
16 was a member of the German army, and was a prisoner of war in Russia for five years after the war. As he knew Russian he was used as a translator. Meyer contacted me by email after learning about my study from her niece.
Karin Manion was bora in Berlin in 1941. Her family was from East Prussia. Her father was a tool and die maker and her mother was a store manager. Manion's mother was born in
1918 and was a member of the BDM as a girl. During the Second World War Manion and her family were evacuated from Berlin to East Prussia. Manion had one younger brother, who was born in 1945. After the war her family stayed in a refugee camp in Denmark for two and a half years before being sent to Germany. In 1953 her father decided to move to Canada, and the rest of the family joined him in 1954 in Trenton, Ontario. Life in Canada was difficult for Manion.
According to her, high school in Canada was "total culture shock".54 Manion completed high school in Canada and then became a bookkeeper at a law firm. In Canada she married a man who was of German descent, but also was a third or fourth generation Canadian. Manion saw my advertisement requesting narrators in the Hofbrauhaus News and contacted me. Although she was youngest woman who took part in my study and was very young during the war she was selected for this study as her mother was a member of the BDM and she remembered stories from her mother. One of the largest points that stood out in her memory was how her mother called that period the nicest time in her life. As well, Manion wrote stories of her life for her children and grandchildren and she provided those stories to me. She also experienced many aspects of the Second World War, including bombing and evacuation, and participated in this study wholeheartedly.
Pseudonym. Karin Manion, interview by author, 5 March 2007, over the phone, tape recording.
17
*• Marianne Clemens was born on February 12,1927 in a small village in Eastern Germany.
Her father was a farmer, but then became employed by the Niesky city government and the family relocated to Niesky. Her mother was a housewife. Clemens had two sisters and a brother. Her family later relocated to Herrnhut in Saxony. There the family joined a church, the
Herrnhuter Brudergemeine. The school Clemens attended was run by the church. Clemens was a member of the BDM, and eventually became a group leader. She recalled helping seniors and recycling as a member of the group. After the war Clemens worked as a secretary at a company in Holland. Clemens immigrated to Canada in 1957. She first lived in Toronto, but did not like it. She then moved to Regina, then Winnipeg, and eventually to Oakbank, Manitoba where she and a friend opened a country coffee shop. At first she did not feel comfortable as a newcomer to the community. Clemens wrote articles describing her life in Germany during the Second
World War that were published in a local newspaper, The Clipper. Clemens did not marry and had no children. I received her name and phone number from a woman who read my email requesting narrators and suggested Clemens because of her articles. Clemens was selected due to her age while in Germany during the war, as well as her experiences in Germany.
Gertrude Knoll was born on February 6,1931 in Widerstreit, Poland. Her father was a farmer and her mother was a housewife. Her father was a member of the Nazi Party. Her father's job was to help Germans become better farmers. Knoll was the oldest of four siblings.
She and her sister were members of the BDM. She recalled taking part in sporting events and marching as a member. Knoll believed that the Germans followed Hitler because of the horrible way they were treated after the First World War. Knoll stated that she had wonderful childhood memories. Her grandparents lived just around the corner, and her mother and father always had workers to help on the farm and with the house. Knoll's family attended a Lutheran church.
18 Knoll immigrated to Canada in 1948 and lived in Churchbridge, Saskatchewan. Shortly after she arrived in Canada she worked on a farm. She later got a job at a hospital in Yorkton,
Saskatchewan. While she lived in Yorkton she met her husband. I received Knoll's name from
her daughter, who works at the Gordon King United Church in Winnipeg and read my email
asking for participants in my study.
This thesis uses oral histories fromth e women described above to recover the memories
of German women who immigrated to Canada after the Second World War. Oral history can be
informative about actual events in a way that published documents can not. The use of oral history opens up new areas of inquiry.55 We are our memories, and through oral history we can
find out about the lives of many individuals whose lives would previously have gone unstudied.
As different personal histories influence the recollection of the same event, even though each of the women in this study faced similar experiences in Nazi Germany and in Canada, their
memories of those similar situations were different. The women in this study interpreted and
reacted to those situations in a variety of manners. By examining the women's memories of their
lives in both Germany and Canada, we can analyze how the women interpreted the situations they were presented with and how they chose to deal with those situations during their adaptation to Canadian society.
Various aspects of oral history are examined in each chapter of this thesis, including
myths in life stories, the effect of the interviewer on oral histories, as well as the repression of
painful events during the interview. Each of these three factors impacted each of the women's
oral histories to some extent and it is important to be conscious of them when evaluating what the women did say, as well as what they did not say.
55 Paul Thompson, "The Voice of the Past: Oral History," in The Oral History Reader: Second Edition, eds. Robert Parks and Alistair Thomson (London and New York: Routledge, 2006), 26.
19 During oral histories the interviewer may affect the narrator's testimony. From the late
1980s "oral historians were increasingly alert to the ways that they were affected by their interviews and how the interviewer, in turn, affected the interview relationship, the data it generated and the interpretative process and product."56 During an interview the interviewer is in a position of power and may affect what the narrator will disclose. The women I interviewed in this study appeared to be comfortable during their interviews. This may be due to the fact that they were being interviewed by a woman. Despite this, it is important to keep in mind that each interviewer will get different truths from the narrator. What the women divulged to me was different than what they may have said in the presence of a different interviewer. This does not make the information I received any less valuable or truthful.
During an oral history interview, painful memories may be repressed. Valerie Yow states that narrators may repress or minimize the painful events they experienced.57 Either ignoring these events altogether or minimizing them may make the memory of the event easier to deal with. Sigmund Freud believed that "memory is inherently revisionist, an exercise in selective amnesia."58 What is forgotten may be as important as what is remembered as these women possibly blocked out some of their memories and left some feelings unsaid. The lack of information I received from the women on certain topics could be because the women did not wish to discuss their painful memories.
Yow, "'Do I Like Them Too Much?': Effects of the Oral History Interview on the Interviewer and Vice Versa," in The Oral History Reader, eds. Parks and Thomson, 54. 57 Valerie Yow, Recording Oral History, 2nd Edition (Walnut Creek: Altamira, 2005), 45. 58 Raphael Samuel and Paul Thompson, "Introduction," in The Myths We Live By. History Workshop Series, eds. Raphael Samuel and Paul Thompson (London and New York: Routledge, 1990), 7.
20 According to sociologist Jean Peneff, the mythical element in life stories is a pre- established framework in which individuals explain their personal history.59 Social anthropologist Elizabeth Tonkin defines a myth as "a purely fictitious narrative usually involving supernatural persons, actions or events and embodying some popular idea concerning natural or historical phenomena... but often used vaguely to include any narrative having fictitious elements."60 In this study the definition of myth is expanded to include not only the fictitious elements found in the women's stories, but it also includes the fantasies the women have created.
While the use of myths in their histories may be a way for the women to avoid the past, according to Portelli "errors, inventions, and myths lead us through and beyond facts to their meaning."61 In some cases when individuals make a statement that is factually wrong it is for a particular purpose. The women may be using myths to describe their lives in a way that is acceptable to them. While the oral history interviews did not yield purely fictitiousnarratives , the women did add some fictitiouselement s to their stories. During their time in Germany, the women interviewed in this study were young girls. The stories that the women recalled during their interviews were likely much different than they would have been approximately 50 years ago. After the passage of so much time the women might have created myths about their experiences in Germany, either due to memory loss or by adding in facts that they heard elsewhere into their own stories. The women possibly consciously or unconsciously included fictitious elements in their stories. They could have consciously used them by embellishing or adding details to their stories. They could have unconsciously created myths due to their own memory loss. A story that they previously heard might have been relayed to the interviewer as
59 Jean Peneff, "Myths in Life Stories," in The Myths We Live By, eds. Samuel and Thompson, 36. 60 Elizabeth Tonkin, "History & the Myth of Realism," in The Myths We Live By, eds. Samuel and Thompson, 27. 61 Alessandro Portelli, The Death o/Luigi Trastulli, and Other Stories: Form and Meaning in Oral History. (Albany, N.Y.: State University of New York, 1991), 2.
21 their own experience. According to oral historian Luisa Passerini, a myth is collective and shared by many.62 The women all shared similar myths about their lives in Germany after their arrival in Canada. Some of these myths included seeing Germans as victims and viewing the
BDM as a Girl Scout type of organization. As a group Germans created myths about the Nazi period. In turn, the women each used different aspects of those myths in their own life stories.
Despite the possibility of myths, according to oral historian Alessandro Portelli, the importance of oral testimony lies in its departure from fact "as imagination, symbolism, and desire emerge."63 When examining the women's oral histories it is important to be aware of how their memories of their experiences in Germany changed after immigration to Canada and to question why the women may have created certain fantasies or omitted certain facts about their pasts.
To avoid dealing with certain aspects of their German pasts, the women might have forgotten the events related to them. Theodor Heuss, in his inaugural address on September 12,
1949 as president of the Federal Republic of Germany noted that "there were times when individuals had to be able to forget past suffering and disappointments and get on with their lives."64 After they arrived in Canada some of the women created myths and purposely left some memories behind them. According to Moeller how, why, and what Germans remembered and what they chose to forget are important.65 Rather than dealing with the negative aspects of their past, such as the treatment of Jews or their activities in the BDM, the women possibly wanted to leave some memories behind them. Perhaps the women replaced the negative aspects with stories of how fun the BDM was, by comparing it to a Girl Scout type of organization, or by
62 Luisa Passerini, "Mythbiography in Oral History," in The Myths We Live By, eds. Samuel and Thompson, 50. 63 Alessandro Portelli, "What Makes Oral History Different?" in The Oral History Reader, eds. Perks and Thomson, 37. 64 Herf, Divided Memory, 239.
22 recalling during their interviews that they did not have any negative feelings towards Jews while they were growing up in Germany. The inclusion of myths into their life stories may not have all been conscious. Living in Canada and relaying their life stories to friends, family, or even complete strangers allowed women to avoid negative stories or to add some mythical elements in their stories, as the people hearing the recounts most likely did not experience Germany firsthand during the Second World War. By recreating new stories in Canada, the women could avoid dealing with their pasts in Germany.
Without oral history this project would have been impossible. If I had not interviewed the women I would not have learned about their lives in Germany and Canada. Oral history will never be the same twice. For example, if I had interviewed these women even two years ago, many of the responses could have been quite different. From their answers I will still be able to get a sense of their opinions and how they changed throughout the years. From their responses I will determine how they have, or have not, dealt with their pasts in Nazi Germany.
While this thesis will determine the women's memories of their time in Germany under
Hitler's Nazi Party, the main objective is to examine how living in Canada affected how they dealt with their pasts as Germans. The women might have recalled their lives in Germany differently after living in Canada for the past five decades. This could be due to the amount of time that passed since immigration, but also because of the effect living in Canada had on them.
How did the women see "others" in Canada, including Jews and other immigrants? Did they agree with the policy of multiculturalism or did they show a preference for the "Canadianization" of new immigrants? What was their relationship with their Canadian neighbours after immigration? How did they cope with being a minority? I will also examine if the women were
^oeller, "What Has 'Coming to Terms With the Past' Meant," 226.
23 able to integrate themselves into Canadian society or if they formed their own community within the 'imagined nation' of Canada.66 Most importantly, did living in Canada allow the women to leave their "past", and that of National Socialism behind them, or did it allow them to deal with the atrocities that the Nazis committed, and their role in them?
Although comparable work has not been done on German Canadian men, I chose to focus only on women as undertaking an examination of both men and women would be too large a field for this thesis. Women often had less of a voice in history, and it is important to rectify that with present studies. As Paul Thompson states, women's history was previously ignored by historians due to the fact that "their lives have so often passed undocumented, tied to the home or to unorganized temporary work."67 This thesis gives the women an opportunity to be heard.
According to historian Susan Geiger, each woman's life history is important and the act of recording it is one of 'writing against the wind'.68
Chapter Two of this thesis focuses on the League of German Girls (BDM). I examine when and how the women interviewed in this study joined the BDM. I also examine the women's memories of the BDM. This chapter also examines if the women discussed their time in the BDM with family and friends, if the women clearly understood the BDM, and if the women avoided discussing this topic during their interview.
Chapter Three of this thesis examines how the women viewed Jews both in Germany and after immigration to Canada. This chapter also examines how the women viewed other ethnic groups in Canada by finding out their feelings regarding multiculturalism. Did the women deal
66 See Benedict Anderson, Imagined Communities: Reflections on the Origin and Spread of Nationalism (London and New York: Verso, 1991), 6. Anderson defines an imagined community as "an imagined political community - and imagined as both inherently limited and sovereign." 67 Paul Thompson. The Voice of the Past: Oral History, 2nd ed. (Oxford, New York: Oxford University, 1988), 96- 7. 68 Susan Geiger, "Review Essay: Women's Life Histories: Method and Content," Signs, Vol. 11, No. 2 (Winter, 1986): 351.
24 with the anti-Semitism and racism that they were taught in Germany, and how did their time in
Germany affect their views of Jews and other ethnic groups after living in Canada for the past five decades?
Chapter Four examines how the women in this study saw the Second World War while they lived in Nazi Germany, as well as how they remembered the war after living in Canada.
The women's experiences during the war and how they saw their experiences after immigration to Canada are analyzed to determine if they dealt with their German pasts. What did the women remember and what did they avoid discussing during their interviews?
The last chapter of the thesis will analyze the women's memories. How did they change and what factor did living in Canada play? Were German immigrant women able to deal with the Nazi past in Canada or did immigration allow them to avoid this process?
25 Chapter Two The BDM and the Women's Recollection of Both the BDM and Their Involvement
The League of German Girls (BDM) was the National Socialist organization for girls aged ten to 21. While some women remembered their time in the BDM in a positive light, others remembered it much more negatively. For example, Gertrude Knoll, born in 1931, saw her time in the BDM as "really only fun"69 while Anne Boiler, bom in 1924, did not enjoy attending
Hitler Youth meetings but "I went because I knew I had to go. And it was serious."70 While some of the women had similar experiences as members of the BDM, they recalled those experiences differently during their interviews. This chapter begins with a brief overview of the
BDM. Next I examine both when and how the women interviewed in this study joined the
BDM. I then examine the women's memories of the BDM after immigration to Canada. Did living in Canada affect the women's memories of the BDM? I will also look at whether or not the women discussed their time in the BDM with their friends and family in Canada, if the women clearly understood the function of the BDM, and if the women tried to avoid discussing either the BDM itself or their time in it during our interview. Finally, whether or not the women understood the events of the past will be assessed.
Experiences in the BDM
As members of the BDM the girls were indoctrinated with Nazi teachings from a young age. The totalitarian Nazi state demanded the organization of both old and young. Baldur von
Schirach was appointed by Hitler as chief of all youth activities for the Nazi Party in October
Gertrude Knoll, interview by author, 23 October 2007, Winnipeg, Manitoba, tape recording. Anne Boiler, interview by author, 2 October 2007, over the phone, tape recording.
26 1931.71 On January 30,1933, when Hitler became Chancellor of the German Reich, Schirach attempted the "consolidation" of all German Youth.72 Of course, this group did not include
Jewish youth. Instead, the National Socialists called on every "racially pure", or "Aryan" girl to join the League of German Girls.73 Sociologist Clifford Kirkpatrick wrote in 1938 in the United
States that "the primary aim of the movement is to rear a new generation of good National
Socialists."74 By the mid-1930s the Hitler Youth, which included the BDM and the boys' organization the Hitler Jugend, was the largest section of the National Socialists.
Girls and young women in Germany were told by the Nazi regime that they were valuable as the biological complement to men. According to historian Michael H. Kater, the role of women in Germany was to be the men's helpmate in the home and the mothers of their children.75 The leaders of the BDM were concerned with creating a new image for women.
Feminist historian Leila J. Rupp states that the images of the schoolgirl, the flapper, the dutiful daughter, and the career woman were rejected in Nazi Germany in favor of that of wife and mother.76 The BDM also called for an elimination of superficial values including makeup and fashion and focused instead on the mythic German heritage of "blood and soil."77 In correlation with these values, there was the establishment of BDM schools for home economics and the introduction of required training in domestic service in 1936.78 Such training is just one
71 Kater, 16. Michelle Mouton, "Sports, Song, and Socialization: Women's Memories of Youthful Activity and Political Indoctrination in the BDM," Journal of Women's History Vol. 17, No. 2 (2005): 62. 73 Ibid, 62. 74 Clifford Kirkpatrick, Nazi Germany: Its Women and Its Family Life (Indianapolis and New York: The Bobbs- Merrill Company, 1938), 90. 75 Kater, 231. 76 Leila J. Rupp, "Mother of the 'Volk': The Image of Women in Nazi Ideology," Signs Vol. 3, No. 2. (Winter 1977): 378. 77 Mouton, 66. 78 Reese, 4.
27 indicator that the position girls were to occupy in Nazi Germany was to assist the Nazi males in
their quest for achieving a superior society and race.
The Nazi regime promoted different roles for girls and boys. While boys in the Hitler
Youth were told: "Live Faithfully, Fight Bravely, and Die Laughing" girls were told: "Be
Faithful, Be Pure, Be German!"79 At a Nuremberg Party Rally in September 1935 Hitler spoke
to members of the Hitler Youth and stated that "What we look for from our German youth is
different from what people wanted in the past. In our eyes the German youth of the future must
be slim and slender, swift as the greyhound, tough as leather, and hard as Krupp steel."80 Girls
were supposed to be active, public, and political but when they became women their roles were
to be mothers, educators of children, and cultural guardians.
The National Socialist state began to educate its youth at the age often. According to
historian Dagmar Reese, Baldur von Schirach believed that the age often marked the end of
childhood.81 The Hitler Youth sought to wield total control over education in Nazi Germany.
Schirach wanted the organization's educational and semi-military activities to provide the basis
for training future generations.82
In the BDM girls from the ages often to 14 were organized in the Jungmddel (JM) while
girls from the ages of 14 to 18 were organized in the Madel. Established in 1938, the Faith and
Beauty section included young women between the ages of 17 and 21. The obligatory year of
labour service {Pflichtjahr) for girls aged 17 was created in 1937.83 At the age of 18 when the
obligatory youth service ended, girls could then decide if they wanted to join the Faith and
" Koonz, 196. 80 Adolf Hitler, "German Youth," speech given at Nuremberg Party Rally in September 1935, in Documents on Nazism 1919-1945, eds. Jeremy Noakes Geoffrey Pridham (London: Trinity, 1974): 354. 81 Reese, 22. 82 Jeremy Noakes and Geoffrey Pridham "Youth," in Documents on Nazism, eds. Noakes and Pridham, 353. 83 Reese, 4. Beauty section. If girls decided to join this section they remained there until they turned 21 years old. Girls were also able to join the National Socialist Women's Association (NS-
Frauenschaft) at the age of 18. Although joining the NS-Frauenschaft was optional at the age of
18, at the age of 21 joining the women's group was expected for girls who were in the BDM's
Faith and Beauty section.
Every year on April 20, Hitler's birthday, a special ceremony was held where new members of the Hitler Youth and BDM were initiated.85 All members of the Hitler Youth and
BDM were required to remember Hitler's birthday. Members of the Hitler Youth swore a personal oath to Hitler, pledging absolute obedience.86
Although the younger generation was more easily drawn into the Nazi groups than adults, studies have shown that fewer girls than boys were members of the youth organizations. For example, in 1935 there were 829,261 boys in the Hitler Youth and 569,717 girls in the BDM.87
This discrepancy could also be due to the fact that the Nazis took more of an interest in the boy's organization. While 100,000 boys attended the Nuremberg rally in 1936, only 900 girls were invited.88
In the earlier Nazi period there were fewer measures in place to ensure conformity among youth. According to historian David Welch, two groups who rejected the Hitler Youth were the
Swing Youth and the Edelweiss Pirates.89 The Swing Youth listened to jazz and swing music and were indifferent to National Socialism. The Edelweiss Pirates were more of a threat to the
84 Ibid., 24. 85 Ibid., 22. Randall L. Bytwerk, Bending Spines: The Propagandas of Nazi Germany and the German Democratic Republic (East Lansing: Michigan State University, 2004), 15. 87 Reese, 35. 88 Koonz, Mothers in the Fatherland, 196. 89 David Welch, "Nazi Propaganda and the Volksgemeinschaft: Constructing a People's Community," Journal of Contemporary History, Vol. 39, No. 2, Understanding Nazi Germany (Apr., 2004): 232.
29 National Socialists as they were opposed to the obligations of the Hitler Youth. None of the women in this study were involved in either of these groups.
The League of German girls went through a number of changes during its existence.
Prior to 1933 girls in the BDM wore a brown dress and were committed to the goal of the
"German Revolution."90 In 1933 the brown dress was declared illegal and was replaced with navy blue skirts, trim white blouses, and brown jackets.91 The league also went through changes in membership numbers. The BDM had remained small but began to grow by mid-1931.
One reason for the growth of the BDM was a law put into place on December 1,1936, that theoretically made the Hitler Youth compulsory.92 It was not until the Hitler Youth Law of
March 25,1939 that the Hitler Youth was actually made compulsory.93 Article 1 of the Hitler
Youth Law (HJ-Law) stated: "All young people must report to their local Hitler Youth leader by the 15th of March at the latest in the calendar year in which they reach the age of 10."94
From its inception, the League of German Girls tried to recruit the majority of German,
"Aryan" girls. In 1938 the Faith and Beauty section was created in order to get women back into a more feminine role.95 Rhythmic gymnastics was one important sporting event, especially in the "Faith and Beauty" section, which aimed at the development of spiritual and physical graces of the older girls.96 Other physical activities, including swimming, were also important.
Feminist historian Claudia Koonz compiled a list of what the girls had to complete in order to join the Faith and Beauty section: memorize all verses of popular Nazi songs, pass an
*" Reese, 4. 91 Kirkpatrick, 90. 92 "Law on the Hitler Youth, 1 December 1936" in Documents on Nazism 1919-1945, eds. Jeremy Noakes Geoffrey Pridham (London: Trinity, 1974): 356. 93 Welch, 231. 94 Reese, 22. 95 See Mouton. 96 Reese, 23. exam on Party history and ideology, run 60 metres in 12 seconds, and swim 100 metres.97 In order to be accepted girls were required to learn about National Socialism and the Nazis. In turn, they felt like they were joining a fun social group which provided them with the opportunity to take part in a number of physical and social activities.
In small towns that previously had not had group sports for girls, "the novelty, combined with the sense that the Nazis truly wanted everyone to participate, increased enthusiasm."98 The
Hitler Youth presented young people with an exciting opportunity to be respected and
responsible. Membership opened the door to exclusive categories of sports such as rowing and
also offered its members the potential to advance socially.
The activities in which the girls participated changed with the approach and arrival of war. After 1938 girls were engaged more with war-related work as the purpose of the Hitler
Youth and BDM changed.99 As the war progressed, girls in Nazi Germany were required to take
on more roles at the home front. Girls not used to martial regiments were more shaken than boys
as the quick change from folk dancing and hikes to political tasks and military postures was more
difficult for girls. 10° By 1940 young females were called up to serve in auxiliary military
situations as clerical personnel were needed in occupied countries.101 As well, older girls were at
first voluntarily called and later seconded or conscripted to do tours of duty as "helpers" for the
various branches of the armed forces.102 During the latter part of the war a "death squad" of young girls was commanded by the Waffen-SS. These girls had "red-painted lips and fought with
abandon."103 Some young girls were commanded by men and became fighting soldiers. This
97 Koonz, Mothers in the Fatherland, 195. 98 Mouton, 67. "Kater,231. 100 Ibid.,73. 101 Ibid., 232. 102 Ibid., 232-233. 103 Ibid., 238.
31 new chaos and danger of wartime brought greater freedom for youth and challenged the traditional role that the BDM first espoused.
Women's Memories of Their Involvement in the BDM
The women's changing lives after the war gave the women little time to reflect on their time in the Hitler Youth girls' organization. Immediately after immigration to Canada the women were occupied adapting to their new lives, but decades later the women had more time to think about their time in the BDM. As well, with the time that passed the women's memories may have changed. As historian Alf Ludtke states, "distinct experiences intricately shape memory and, in turn, are shaped by ever-changing hindsight."104 Thus, the women's experiences after the war both in Germany and in Canada influenced how they remembered their time in the
BDM.
Out of the ten women interviewed in this study, five were involved in the BDM. One of the most common reasons for not being involved was the age of the girls during the Nazi period.
Only one woman interviewed stated that she was a BDM group leader in Germany.
Marianne Clemens was born in a small village in Eastern Germany in 1927. She spent the war years in Niesky and Herrnhut, in Saxony. Clemens was older than a number of the other women in this study during the Nazi period. She joined the BDM when she was ten years old, and rose through the ranks until she became a group leader. Clemens spent a lot of her youth taking part in BDM activities, including helping seniors, collecting items for recycling, and camping.
Elizabeth Redekopp was also born in 1927, but became a member of the BDM later than
Clemens. She was born in Osterwick, by the Dnieper. Osterwick was part of Russia when
104 Alf Ludtke, "Review Article: '"Coming to Terms with the Past': Illusions of Remembering, Ways of Forgetting Nazism in West Germany," The Journal of Modern History. Vol. 65, No. 3 (Sep., 1993): 542.
32 Redekopp was born but was overtaken by the German army in 1941. Redekopp and her family
immigrated to Germany in 1943, and it was during the war that Redekopp took part in the BDM.
Redekopp worked as a maid out of a group home, and also took part in the war effort.
Anne Boiler was the oldest woman interviewed, born in 1924 in Bockenheim, Germany.
Bockenheim was located in the Pfalz region in southwestern Germany. Boiler was a member of
the BDM, but was not very active in the group as her mother was sick and needed her help.
Boiler attended some meetings, but "never did go on any outings with them."105 Gertrude Knoll, born in 1931 in Widerstreit, Poland, was also a member of the BDM. Knoll took part in sports
and camping. While she did not become a leader herself, Knoll recalled that she had "a great youth leader."106
Agnes Weber, born in 1925 in Eastern Germany, recalled being a member of the BDM.
Weber did not recall exactly when she joined, but remembered singing songs and watching
soldiers exercise while in the BDM. During her interview she recalled that she enjoyed her time
in the BDM.
While Karin Manion did not take part in the BDM due to her age, her mother was a member. Manion was born in Berlin in 1941. Her mother, Eva Wohlgemuth, was born in East
Prussia in 1918. Manion stated during her interview that her mother was involved in the BDM
when she was a teenager. Manion remembered her mother telling her about the camaraderie she
felt in the BDM.107
Many of the women interviewed recalled their time in the BDM fondly. Good times that the women remembered included their involvement in sports and other social activities.
Contrary to contributing towards a negative regime, some of the women remembered the BDM
105 Anne Boiler, interview by author. 106 Gertrude Knoll, interview by author.
33 as a positive organization. One of the women who recalled the BDM as a positive organization during her interview was Marianne Clemens, who was born in 1927. From her interview it is clear that she enjoyed her time in the group. When interviewed Clemens recalled: "we did not much different things than what the girls {inaudible) do now here."108 Clemens saw the BDM as a helpful group that wore a uniform, helped seniors, and recycled. During her interview she stated:
I liked the uniform we had. And we had, we helped seniors. Every Saturday we had little (inaudible) where we went and we collected - we were already, there was a book and I still couldn't get a hold of it, it's called How Green Nazi Germany Was. We were recycling. Long before somebody here in America started thinking about it. And we collected some, there was even a funny song about it, we collected all paper, bones - what else did we collect? Anything that's now what we're recycling now. 109
While Clemens remembered these as positive actions, in many cases what the girls collected was used to assist the war effort. After immigration to Canada Clemens tried to find a book entitled
How Green Nazi Germany Was to read, but was unable to do so.110 While living in Canada
Clemens made some attempts to find out information about Germany during the Third Reich.
Clemens also remembered the BDM as an organization comparable to the Girls Scouts of
Canada. The BDM has also been compared to the Girl Scout organizations in the United States.
Writing in 1938, Kirkpatrick stated that standards of achievement in the BDM were set fairly low
"so that the average girl can happily record success in her achievement book and acquire symbols and badges similar to those provided by the Girl Scouts and the Camp Fire girls."111
Providing fun activities was one way that the Nazi leadership disguised the political content of
While she was growing up, Eva's father belonged to the Worker's Party. 1 Marianne Clemens, interview by author. 109 Ibid 110 From Clemens' remarks it appears this book was a glowing report of how the Nazis helped the environment. Clemens did not mention reading other books on this topic. 111 Kirkpatrick, 91.
34 the youth groups. A number of the women interviewed compared the BDM to a Girl Scout type of organization. Although the women did not grow up in Canada and were not members of the Girl Scouts, while living in Canada they learned about the organization, and their daughters or granddaughters could have been members. The women interviewed might have used this comparison to make the BDM appear innocent, and a potential reason for their involvement. By comparing the BDM to a well-respected group for young girls such as the Girls Scouts, the made the BDM appear as a positive youth group. To many of the women interviewed, the group was just a normal youth organization. The fact that the Nazis ran this group did not appear to concern the women.
Gertrude Knoll recalled joining the BDM at the age often. Knoll was born in 1931 in
Widerstreit, Poland, and remembered how much fun the BDM was. She stated:
I did belong to the Hitler Youth and it was great fun. It - contrary to what people think, I can't remember anything bad. The only thing that maybe people might think is bad, we had to learn about Adolf Hitler, we knew exactly when he was born and what he had done for all of us. But otherwise I can't remember, there was a lot of sports.'13
From Knoll's comments it is clear that she understood that some people were not able to believe that the group was a positive organization. Despite this she associated it with fun and camaraderie. The only thing she thought was a negative aspect of the group was that the members were forced to learn about Hitler, an activity which most likely took up little time.
Irma Meyer, born in 1936 in Romania, was not old enough to join the BDM. Despite this she remembered that her brother's involvement in the Hitler Youth consisted of numerous enjoyable outings: "I saw him put on his uniform and then they had, usually sports events. And I
Mouton, 64. Gertrude Knoll, interview by author.
35 remember one time they were swimming and then one even drowned, of his friends."114 The
outings and group activities was a focus of many of the women's memories of the BDM and
Hitler Youth.
Agnes Weber, born in 1925, also remembered the BDM as a positive experience. Weber remembered going for marches, and that "when Hitler came on, till late in the war, we had a
good time."115 During her interview Weber could not recall what year she joined. She thought that she was about six years old, but that was not possible because the earliest age that girls could join at was ten. It is important to note that Weber remembered the marches being fun. Marches
were one of the many "hardening" exercises youth were required to endure. Some of these
marches were even barefoot marches and bareheaded marches in the rain.U6 It is possible that
Weber recalled the events differently after many years spent in Canada, hearing stories about the
activities of the Girl Scouts and other youth groups.
According to sociologist Jean Peneff, there is often a mythical element in life stories.
Individuals explain their personal history using certain facts, and arrange them into biographical
events.117 The women potentially took popular ideas regarding the Nazi period in Germany and placed themselves within that narrative. Oral historian Luisa Passerini believes that we can use
the present in order to reinterpret the myths we encounter during oral histories.118 By
recognizing the myths that the women use, we can determine the popular history of the period.
The stories that she recalled during her interview could have been fantasies she created as a
young girl rather than her actual life experiences. The creation of these fantasies could be a way
for Weber to avoid dealing with difficult aspects of her past in Germany.
114 Irma Meyer, interview by author, 24 October 2007, over the phone, tape recording. 115 Agnes Weber, interview by author, 3 December 2006, Winnipeg, Manitoba, tape recording. 116 Geoffrey Cocks, "Modern Pain and Nazi Panic," in Pain and Prosperity: Reconsidering Twentieth-Century Germany History, eds. Paul Betts and Greg Echigian (Stanford: Stanford University, 2003): 98.
36 Weber also believed that Hitler created more opportunities for the poorer children in
Germany. She believed that because of Hitler she was treated on a more equal footing with the
"rich" kids. According to Weber:
We were so much better off then. You had more help - see before, the big ranchers they could do what they want. But when he came on we had more rights. And in school the teachers were not allowed to make a difference between the rich kids and the poor kids.119
What Weber was taught as a young girl in Germany affected her feelings even at the time of her interview. Despite what happened to Nazi Germany, Weber continued to recall this period as a very enjoyable time in her life. This could be due to the fact that Weber was born earlier than many of the other women, and most likely spent a longer period of time in the BDM than the others.
A common memory amongst the women interviewed was that membership in the BDM was compulsory. According to Marianne Clemens, born in 1927, "you start when you were ten.
You're automatic. That was, I mean it was automatic, you went into the Hitler Youth, and then when you were from ten till 14 and from 14 till 18 you were in BDM."120 Anne Boiler, born in
1924, also remembered that membership was compulsory. Boiler recalled that "as soon as you were ten years old you had to enroll there. And belong to the Hitler Youth. For girls it was the
BDM, and for boys it was the Hitler Jugend."121
Although membership in the BDM was supposed to be compulsory, a number of women recalled either not participating at all or not attending specific BDM events. In 1935 60 percent of German youth belonged to the Hitler Youth, but membership in the group was not made
mPeneff,36. 118 Passerini, "Mythbiography in Oral History," 60. 119 Agnes Weber, interview by author. 120 Marianne Clemens, interview by author. 121 Anne Boiler, interview by author.
37 compulsory until the Hitler Youth Law of March 25,1939. As previously stated, a law brought in on December 1,1936 theoretically brought all German young people other than Jews
into the youth organizations, but many were able to avoid joining until the Hitler Youth Law of
1939.
Anne Boiler, born in 1924 in Bockenheim, remembered that she was a member of the
BDM, but rarely took part in BDM activities. During our interview Boiler stated that "I never
did go on any outings with them. I very seldom actually did attend their meetings, even though it was all compulsory."123 The reason that Boiler gave for not attending was her mother's illness.
Boiler stated:
My mom would usually claim us. A mother with so many children - and she was sick, my mother was not well at all. And she needed help from us kids, you know, to help with the other kids. So she would say, as a mother with so many children, "I claim first right on my daughter to help me." And they allowed her that. I had to go once in a while to show up. And for once in a while she would let me go, but most of the time she would just make us - or what would you call it, yeah? Took advantage of this law that she could claim first the help of her children for herself because she was sick.124
Rather than attending BDM activities, Boiler helped her mother with household work. She recalled that her mother rarely "let" her go to the BDM activities. From the interview it appears that Boiler preferred taking part in the BDM activities over helping her mother, whom she stated
"took advantage" of the law. Studies on the BDM, including Kater's Hitler Youth, Mouton's
"Sports, Song, and Socialization" and Reese's Growing up Female in Nazi Germany do not mention the law that Boiler referred to.
Welch, 231. Anne Boiler, interview by author.
38 Elfie Blankenagel, born in 1928 in Berlin, did not join the BDM because her father would not let her: "No, I wasn't in there. That was my problem too. My father wouldn't let me."125
Blankenagel did not appear to think the BDM was compulsory when she was a girl. Out of all of the women interviewed who were old enough to join, Blankenagel is the only one who was not
involved. One reason for this could be the fact that the Hitler Youth law did not take effect until
1939, when Blankenagel was 11 years old. Another reason could have been due to
Blankenagel's family, as she remembered that her father did not "let" her join.
For some of the women the BDM was a way to get out of unpleasant situations, or to be accepted by other members of German society. Boiler took advantage of the Labour Service
(Arbeitsdiensf) to avoid work in a tannery. Boiler recalled that the Arbeitsdienst was a compulsory year of service which German girls were required to perform for the National
Socialist state. Welch states that rather than a year of service, the girls served for a six month period.126 The reason Welch gives for the Labour Service's existence was to reduce overcrowding in the universities and to provide Germany with cheap labour.127 According to historian Nancy R. Reagin, at the age of 17 girls were encouraged to serve their obligatory year
(Pflichtjahr).128 Reese states that this obligatory year of service was introduced in 1937.129 At the age of 18 the obligatory period of youth service ended.
During her interview Boiler recalled that she was either 17 or 18 when she served her obligatory year. Boiler explained during her interview that
when I was drafted for the industry, for going to that tannery, that's when my mother said let's pray about this, God had a way out. So we have to do what we can and God may give you strength that you can do what you're supposed to do.
125 Elfie Blankenagel, interview by author, 19 September 2007, over the phone, tape recording. 126 Welch, 234. 127 Ibid. 128 Nancy R. Reagin, Sweeping the German Nation: Domesticity and National Identity in Germany, 1870-1945 (New York: Cambridge University, 2007), 121. 129 Reese, 4.
39 And she said you know what I remember, they put you back one year, you know that year is over. She said why don't you go to their office and tell them that you would like to serve your year now in the Arbeitsdienst because you always wanted to go, you were (inaudible) you know, the girls as well as the boys that were drafted that way they wore uniforms, and so she said go and tell them that you wanted to go and they let them see what they do with you and we keep praying. And we did, and would you believe that was the week I prepared for starting at the tannery. And I had - you had to go to the, to a special doctor that checked you out, not even your personal family doctor could do it, you had to go to a special doctor that checked you over and checked you out, and I had all this done*0
Rather than start work at the tannery Boiler worked at the post office and after her year of service
she remained there as an employee. This was extremely beneficial to Boiler, as work in the tannery was much more difficult and "the stinkiest job you could get."131 Instead Boiler was
able to obtain a position that she felt was better through her unpaid work in the Arbeitsdienst.
According to historian Michelle Mouton, some girls that were old enough to join the
BDM prior to 1939 recalled that they did not join despite the benefits associated to joining because they had other interests or were repelled by the degree of conformity that the BDM
demanded.132 Effie Engel, a subject in the study of historian Eric A. Johnson and sociologist
Karl-Heinz Reuband, was born in 1921 in Dresden. When she discussed membership in the
BDM Engel recalled:
In the end, almost half the class refused to join. So, my class succeeded in this. But that hardly was possible for the classes after us, as they were put under a lot of pressure to join. Still, my sister also did not join the BDM even though she was three years younger than me.133
None of the women interviewed in this study stated during their interviews that they refused to join the BDM.
130Anne Boiler, interview by author. 131 Ibid. 132 Mouton, 69. 133 Eric A. Johnson and Karl-Heinz Reuband, What we Knew: Terror, Mass Murder, and Everyday Life in Nazi Germany: An Oral History (Cambridge: Basic, 2005), 215.
40 For other girls in Nazi Germany, not belonging to the youth groups was not their choice
and was associated with exclusion and rejection. Some girls were not allowed to join because of the beliefs of their parents or because their help was needed at home. According to Mouton, the fact that many working-class and rural girls had to work either for incomes or on their family farms increased the scarcity of working-class leaders and members.134
Some of the girls who were not allowed to join remembered how they "suffered" when their parents kept them out of the BDM. Elfie Blankenagel was born in 1928 in Berlin. She recalled that she did not join because her father did not let her and that was a problem for her.135
From this statement it appears that Blankenagel was not particularly opposed to joining, and saw her father's actions as contributing to her social problems. Blankenagel recalled not having much of a social life as an adolescent. She stated during her interview that "I didn't have much
social. I liked to read and go horseback riding and things like this, but I never went public,
dancing or anything. My parents wouldn't allow that."136 Because of her parents Blankenagel missed out on many social events, including those related to the BDM. Despite appearing to blame her parents for her lack of a social life, Blankenagel's comments later in her interview demonstrated that she herself did not enjoy participating in social events. During her trip on the
ship from Germany to Canada, Blankenagel recalled;
And in the evenings they had parties. They had bands and they played, you know how young people are. They drink and smoke and everything and I was in the corner watching. I say "you're not drinking and you're not smoking, and you're not doing anything." And the young man came and got me, he says, "oh you're so cute, you have to dance." I said "sir, I don't like to dance." "Well why not?" I say "because I don't feel like it." And he grabbed me and I say "don't do that." Oh he says, "what will you do?" And before he knew what was happening I punched him in the nose, {laughter) So I tried to go to our room.
134 Mouton, 73. 135 Elfie Blankenagel, interview by author. 136 Ibid. 137 Ibid.
41 Decades after immigration to Canada, Blankenagel still blamed her lack of a social life on the fact that her parents did not let her join the BDM, even though it appears that she herself did not enjoy social events.
Helga Schmidt, also a participant in Johnson and Reuband's study, was born in 1921 and raised in Dresden. Schmidt was also not a member in the BDM. According to Schmidt "it was not pleasant for an older child to have to stand on the sidelines, because that is not one's inclination."138 This statement reinforces the fact that to be a member of the girls' organization was a way for many of the girls to belong. To not belong while other girls their age did was particularly difficult. The BDM was a "popular" adolescent group, and those who did not belong missed out on many exciting social events.
Elizabeth Redekopp, born in 1927 in Osterwick, was involved in the BDM during the war. She was involved with mainly war-related work. She recalled being stationed in a field and having to "shoot the airplanes down."139 Redekopp explained that her involvement in this area occurred when "the war was already going down, you know, and that's why they took girls."140
It appeared as though Redekopp believed that the only reason girls and women were allowed to assist on the battlefield was due to the fact that the war was nearing an end and Germany was close to defeat. Redekopp did not remember her time in the BDM as fondly as some of the other women interviewed did. This could be due to the fact that she did not experience fun outings such as camping and sports activities that the other women interviewed took part in prior to the outbreak of war. Even though the tasks she performed were physically, and perhaps even emotionally difficult, it appeared that Redekopp felt that she provided a useful service during the
138 Johnson, 177. 139 Elizabeth Redekopp, interview by author, 20 March 2007, Winnipeg, Manitoba, tape recording.
42 Second World War. Redekopp assisted the war effort at a time when it was becoming more and more apparent that Germany was not going to emerge victorious. Redekopp recalled knowing at the time that "it was bad already, you know, that they (Germany) knew they would lose."141
Despite this statement it is unlikely that Redekopp knew at that time that Germany would lose, but it is possible that some Germans had a sense near the end of the war that Germany would not emerge victorious. Redekopp also possibly gained this knowledge after the war ended.
When asked about their involvement in the Hitler Youth, some of the women felt the need to defend their participation. Gertrude Knoll, born in 1931 recalled that: "For women, for girls, it was really only fun. They wanted to make us good mothers (laughter)."142 It appeared important to Knoll to state that she did not remember anything "bad" about the BDM. Marianne
Clemens, born in 1927, also defended her participation. Clemens stated that she did not know about the Holocaust when asked about her time in the BDM, even though the Holocaust was not mentioned during this section of the interview. Clemens stated that
in the Hitler Youth, we didn't know about the concentration camps and so -1 mean, if parents knew about it, most parents didn't know the real thing either. And if they knew they would never discuss anything with children because it was very dangerous if you would talk about it and kids would block some out you know. So they wouldn't take any risks.143
When discussing her BDM involvement Clemens also stated that "we had outside stuff doing you know, (inaudible) and camping. The same what the scouts now do. And nobody talked about or knew what was happening, those gruesome things."144 It is interesting that Clemens chose to emphasize that she did not know about the Holocaust while discussing her membership in the BDM. By repeating this fact Clemens attempted to deny responsibility for the German
Gertrude Knoll, interview by author. 143 Marianne Clemens, interview by author. 144 Ibid
43 past. She described the BDM as a normal childhood group. Clemens may have created that image in her mind to describe her time in this group. By discussing the positive aspects of the
BDM, such as recycling and other activities and downplaying the negative aspects of the Nazi regime, Clemens attempted to make the BDM appear more acceptable, perhaps in her own mind as well as to members of the Canadian society.
One of the women interviewed stated that her time spent in Canada allowed her to learn about the BDM and Hitler Youth. When Gertrude Knoll was a girl her family was removed from their home and placed on a Polish farm. Born in 1931, Knoll remembered that the BDM was fun. After immigration to Canada, she learned an alternative side as well. Knoll stated:
I have read since, I don't know who brought me that book, that for the boys it was a different story. And they were trained like from the beginning to be a soldier and stuff like that but, I don't know if that was the case in women. And of course maybe older girls, it might have been different. I was only 14,1 was 14 when the war was over, so for us it was good {laughter). We learned to march too {laughter) us
While Knoll still recalled her time in the BDM as fun, by the time of her interview she learned that not everyone experienced the BDM the way she did. Knoll is the only woman interviewed who acknowledged that Hitler Youth groups were not enjoyable for everyone. Despite this new knowledge, Knoll's opinion of the BDM did not change. Rather, she believed the negative aspects belonged only to the boys' section rather than to the BDM.
None of the women in this study recalled feelings of victimization due to their involvement in the BDM. From his studies Michael H. Kater determined that numerous members of the Hitler Youth later claimed to have been victims who were seduced by the Nazi regime and were cheated out of their youth.146 Many of the women remembered their involvement in the BDM positively decades after their immigration to Canada. Even after
145 Gertrude Knoll, interview by author.
44 learning about Hitler and the Holocaust, some women maintained that they did not know about
Hitler's extermination policies while in the BDM. By bringing up the Holocaust when discussing the BDM, it is possible that the women attempted to deny that they knew what was happening in Germany while they were girls. As they were children and young women it is possible that the women did not know the extent of what happened in Germany. They may have denied any knowledge about the Holocaust when discussing the BDM in order to protect their parents, BDM leaders, and other adults. It is possible that none of the women felt victimized due to membership in the BDM because they did not spend time reflecting on their roles in the BDM after immigration to Canada. The women argued that postwar conditions in Canada did not allow them to deal with the Holocaust. During their interviews the women continued to compare the BDM to organizations that were socially acceptable in Canada, such as the Girl Scouts.
Conclusion
During their interviews, none of the women avoided the topic of the BDM when asked about it. But many of the women interviewed focused on the positive experiences of the BDM.
Mouton also found in her study of the memories of former BDM members that many recalled the
BDM with pleasure. According to Reese, it is difficult for the generation of women that were involved to associate their frequently positive experiences in the BDM with the National
Socialist brutalities.147 As many of the women in this study still remembered mainly positive experiences in the BDM, even at the time of their interviews the women did not associate the
BDM with the negative aspects of National Socialism.
It is difficult to determine if the women in this study gained a clear understanding of the function of the BDM after immigration to Canada. Few of the women did much further reading
Kater, 249. Reese, 7.
45 on the subject or compared their experiences with that of their friends. Some of the women did recall their siblings' experiences in both the BDM and the Hitler Youth, but most of that
information was learned during the Nazi period rather than after the war. Many of the women held varying beliefs about the BDM's purpose. Some viewed it as a Girl Scout type of organization that also taught women to be good wives and mothers, while others, such as
Elizabeth Redekopp, saw the BDM as a group that aided the war effort.
At the time of their interviews the women had not fully dealt with their roles in the BDM.
Even though the women were able to discuss the BDM and did not hide their involvement, the women only recounted the positive aspects of their time in the BDM. In some cases the women created myths when discussing their roles in the BDM, as some of their recollections did not fit
in with either the time period that the women discussed, or their age at the time. One example of this was Agnes Weber's recollection of being a member at the age of six. Living in Canada potentially enabled the women to create these myths about the BDM. This topic was not discussed in Canadian society, which allowed the women to retain their previous memories
rather than revising them. If the women did relay their stories, most likely it would be to people
who did not know the full details of the BDM. According to Mouton, Luisa Passerini has argued that people try to justify themselves while establishing continuity in their life stories.148 For this reason the women may have added or embellished certain facts. They also possibly tried to justify their involvement in the BDM by only discussing the positive aspects, and by denying that they knew about the Holocaust while they were members of the BDM.
Although the women understood the BDM's functions, they did not understand that the youth organizations played a vital role in Hitler's plans for the future of Germany. They also did not believe that their roles in the group contributed towards the Nazi regime and their policies.
46 The women were not ashamed about this period in their pasts, and associated their time in the group with a period of enjoyment. Even after the war when the women learned more about the
Nazi regime, they did not change their opinions about the BDM. Mouton found that only the women who truly embraced the BDM were left with a sullied childhood after the fall of the Nazi regime.149 Most of the women interviewed in this study may not have truly embraced the BDM.
For Anne Boiler, the BDM provided an opportunity to get out of unpleasant situations. For others, such as Gertrude Knoll, the BDM was simply "fun". The women therefore associated their activities in the BDM, such as marching, recycling, and singing with other countries' youth organizations rather than with the Nazi regime itself.
Mouton, 63.
47 Chapter Three
Women's Views of "The Other"
This chapter examines how the women who immigrated to Canada from Germany viewed Jews while they lived in Germany as well as how they viewed Jews after their immigration to Canada. In addition, how the women viewed other ethnic groups who immigrated to Canada after they did will be examined by analyzing the women's feelings about multiculturalism. As young girls in Nazi Germany the women in this study were taught to support anti-Semitism and racism under Adolf Hitler and the Nazis. Did they agree with what they were taught in Germany or did they form their own beliefs? In addition, how did their beliefs change after living in Canada, both immediately after immigration when assimilation was often promoted, and after the 1970s when Canada became a country that promoted multiculturalism and tolerance for others? This chapter examines anti-Semitism in Germany, the women's encounters with Jews in Canada, and the women's views of multiculturalism.
Anti-Semitism in Germany
Jews were assimilated in Germany over the centuries and prior to Hitler's ascension to power lived a relatively peaceful life. According to historian Frank Stern, prior to 1945 anti-
Semitism was not restricted to Nazi ideology as it was a component of prevailing social consciousness in Germany.150 The Jews were seen as successful individuals who owned and operated a majority of the businesses in the towns and cities in Germany and were viewed with contempt by many members of German society.151
Frank Stern, The Whitewashing of the Yellow Badge: Antisemitism and Philosemitism in Postwar Germany, trans. William Templer (Oxford: Pergamon, 1992), xv. 1 1 Richard Bessel, "The Nazi Capture of Power," Journal of Contemporary History, Vol. 39, No. 2, Understanding Nazi Germany (Apr., 2004): 176.
48 According to historian Richard Bessel, while hatred and prejudice against Jews and racist attitudes was one reason for activists to join the Nazi movement during the 1920s and early
1930s, the same cannot be said of the majority of the millions of Germans who cast their votes for the National Socialists between 1930 and 1933.152 Germany was a society still suffering from national humiliation and weakened by inflation, economic depression, and mass unemployment. According to historian David Welch, it is not surprising that such a society was attracted to National Socialism, for many other reasons than hatred of Jews.153
Although anti-Semitism was an important policy in Nazi Germany, it was not the main reason that Germans supported the Party. According to propaganda and rhetoric expert Randall
Bytwerk, few people initially supported Hitler in the hopes that he would start a world war or kill millions of Jews.154 As historian Bill Niven states, before and after 1933 there were both negative and positive aspects of German-Jewish relations.155
When Hitler took office as Chancellor, Jews constituted only approximately one per cent of the German population.156 With the expansion of the German frontiers due to the annexation of the Rhineland and by 1938 the annexation of Austria and Czechoslovakia, the number of Jews under German rule rose.157 According to historian Jeffrey Herf, during Hitler's early years as
Chancellor he denounced Jews as alien to the German nation, stating that they were the cause of
Germany's economic problems from the defeat after the First World War to the Depression of
152 Ibid, 170. 153 Welch, 217. 154 Bytwerk, 157. 153 Bill Niven, Facing the Nazi Past: United Germany and the Legacy of the Third Reich (London and New York: Routledge, 2002), 142. 156 Irving Abella and Harold Troper, None is too Many: Canada and the Jews of Europe 1933-1948 (Toronto: Key Porter, 2000), 3. 157 Ibid, 4.
49 the 1930s.158 Anti-Semitic feelings were not hidden by the Nazis. According to Bessel, Nazi
activists made no secret of their hatred for Jews. Instead, Nazi speakers discussed the Jews'
alleged crimes, malicious influence, depravity, and inferiority.159 For the Jews in Germany daily
survival became a difficult task as they lived amongst a population which aimed at eliminating
them. Some Jews turned to accelerated assimilation while increasing numbers made efforts to
160 emigrate.
From May of 1935 actions against Jews in Germany accelerated.161 In September of
1935 the Nuremberg laws were implemented. These laws outlawed marriages between Jews and
non-Jews, forbid extramarital sexual relations between Jews and non-Jews, and made it illegal
for Jews to employ non-Jewish women under 45 years old as servants. In addition, it was illegal
for Jews to raise the German flag.162 In 1938 the Nazis stepped up their campaign against the
Jews.163 In April of 1938 a decree made it mandatory for all Jews and non-Jewish spouses of a
Jew to register their wealth.164 On November 9 and 10,1938 the night of broken glass, also
known as Kristallnacht took place. Jewish property was destroyed and Jews were subjected to
terror.
Propaganda was an important tool that the Nazis used to convince Germans to follow
their policies in relation to the Jews. According to Welch, the four major themes that recurred in
Nazi propaganda included: appeal to national unity based on the principles 'The community
before the individual'; the need for racial purity; a hatred of enemies which centred on Jews and
158 Jeffrey Herf, "Narratives of Totalitarianism: Nazism's Anti-Semitic Propaganda During World War II and the Holocaust," Telos, Issue 135 (Summer 2006), 37. 159 Bessel, 176. 160 Bartov, "Defining Enemies," 778. 161 Robert Gellately, Backing Hitler: Consent and Coercion in Nazi Germany (Oxford: University Press, 2001), 121. 162 Ibid, 122. 163 Niven, Facing the Nazi Past, 11. 164 Gellately, 124.
50 Bolsheviks; and charismatic leadership. The Nazis used propaganda not only to teach
Germans their policies, but also to reinforce existing ideas amongst the population regarding
Jews. According to historian Robert Gellately, at the end of the 1930s many Germans were
convinced that there was a 'Jewish question' and believed it might be best if Jews left
Germany.166
Propaganda played an important role in mobilizing support for the National Socialists and
for maintaining the party once in power.167 Posters, speeches, radio broadcasts, and pamphlets were some of the ways in which the Nazis sent their messages through Germany. In 1939
propaganda was intensified in Germany to prepare the country 'spiritually' for war.168 Hitler
realized that his dreams could not be realized effortlessly and would require the assistance and
support of the German population. Propaganda did assist the Nazis, but according to Welch it
alone could not have sustained the Nazi Party over a period of 12 years.169 One reason for this is that propaganda was actually more effective when reinforcing existing values and prejudices than when trying to manufacture a new value system or when it was encountering resistance.170
In order to be effective propaganda had to appeal to people who already shared some of the same beliefs of the Nazis, such as feelings of contempt for Jews.
There are numerous theories explaining how the Holocaust emerged. The
'intentionalists', including historians Klaus Hildebrand and Andreas Hillgruber, believed that the
extermination of the Jews arose out of the uniqueness of Nazism's racist policies as well as
Hitler's personal ideological outlook. According to historian Geoff Eley, in the view of the
165 Welch, 217. 166 Gellately, 125-6. 167 Welch, 213. 168 Richard Overy with Andrew Wheatcroft, The Road to War, Revised and updated edition (London: Penguin, 1999), 59. 169 Welch, 213. 170 Ibid., 216.
51 intentionalists, the events of 1941-42 became the culmination of the policies of a murderous Nazi leadership. m On the other hand the 'structuralists', also called 'functionalists', including historians Hans Mommsen and Martin Broszat, believed anti-Semitism in Germany evolved
more complexly from the opportunities and disorder created by the Third Reich's military victories in 1940-41.172 The highly controversial political scientist Daniel Goldhagen asserted that it was normal for Germans to follow Hitler's policies and exterminate Jews because this was the cultural norm in Germany at the time.173 Conversely, historian Christopher Browning believed that peer pressure was the reason so many Germans followed the Nazis.174 A wide variety of factors in Nazi Germany led to the Holocaust. I agree with historian Tobias Jersak, who stated that the mass murder of Jews by the Nazis was decided for different reasons at a
different time, and that the Final Solution carried out during the Second World War was one very different from what had been planned before the war. 175 It appears that the policies of the Nazis, the war progress, as well as the beliefs of the Germans themselves all played a role in the extermination of the Jews.
Hitler used Nazi propaganda to skillfully divert public frustrations into attacks on the
Jews. Hitler believed that it had been a mistake for former rulers to believe that Germans could take land with "alien peoples upon it" and Germanize them.177 Rather, it was Hitler's goal to expel the Jewish people and populate the land with true 'Aryan' Germans. Through
171 GeoffEley, "Ordinary Germans, Nazism, and Judeocide," in The "Goldhagen Effect": History, Memory, Nazism - Facing the German Past, ed. GeoffEley (Ann Arbor: The University of Michigan, 2000): 13. 172 Ibid. 173 Jane Caplan, "Reflections on the Reception of Goldhagen in the United States," in The "Goldhagen Effect", ed. Eley, 159-160. 174 Omer Bartov, "Reception and Perception: Goldhagen's Holocaust and the World," in The "Goldhagen Effect", ed. Eley, 42. 175 Tobias Jersak, "Blitzkrieg Revisited: A New Look at Nazi War and Extermination Planning," The Historical Journal, Vol. 43, No. 2. (Jun., 2000): 582. 176 Welch 236-7.
52 propaganda Hitler blamed the Jews for Germany's difficulties. He blamed Germany's economic
crisis on the Jews and also blamed the Jews for the outbreak of the war. According to Gellately,
anti-Semitic propaganda increased after the outbreak of the war, and the Jews were repeatedly
blamed.178
Some Germans agreed with various aspects of anti-Semitism while finding some policies unacceptable. Gellately states that some Germans continued to shop at Jewish-owned stores in
September 1935 after the boycott was introduced in order to show their opposition to anti-
Semitism.179 Historian David Bankier found that the bourgeoisie in particular did not believe in the boycott and were disgusted that Germany should resort to such methods.180 In addition, according to Gellately, Catholics and the middle class felt pity that Jews were forced to wear the yellow star.181 Businessmen were worried that anti-Semitic activities damaged Germany's economic interests by hampering their ties with traders abroad, and those involved in the tourist
industry were also worried.182 In addition, many peasants believed that Jews were gifted capital- owners and continued to trade with them because Jewish dealers paid higher prices than German dealers did.183
However, according to Bankier, on the whole the German population consented to attacks on the Jews, as long as non-Jews were not harmed, and Germany's reputation abroad remained intact.184 For example, as long as Germany's relations with traders were not hindered,
177 Hans Werner, "Volksdeutsche, DFs, Germans: The 'Official' Identity of Post War Ethnic German Immigrants," in 1945 in Canada and Germany: Viewing the Past through the Present, eds. Hans Braun and Wolfgang Klooss (Germany: L&F Verlag Kiel, 1996): 25. 178 Gellately, 129. 179 Ibid, 121. 180 David Bankier, The Germans and the Final Solution: Public Opinion under Nazism (Oxford: Blackwell, 1992), 69. 181 Gellately, 131. 182 Bankier, 73. 183 Ibid., 96. 184 Ibid, 74.
53 businessmen approved anti-Semitic legislation because they believed it restrained terror and stabilized the status of Jews in Nazi Germany.185 After the Nuremberg Laws were introduced and the violence in Germany decreased, the majority of educated Germans reacted with indifference to the fate of the Jews. The coming of the Second World War gave Germans other things to worry about than the Jews. According to historian Ian Kershaw, Germans' everyday concerns sapped their energy, leaving them indifferent towards the Jews.186 While not necessarily agreeing with the policies implemented against the Jews, many Germans were busy with other concerns and did not fight to protect the Jews.
During the war and immediately following the war there was a general silence regarding anti-Semitism. Shortly after this period the silence regarding anti-Semitism shifted. According to historian Mary Fulbrook, the definition of the Nazi past became the baseline for what post-war
Germany was not.187 A cloak of silence was draped over anti-Semitism and a new attitude regarding the Jews emerged called philosemitism. Stern states that Adenauer, the first post-war
Chancellor of West Germany, believed "German people wish to make good for the injustice perpetrated in its name by a criminal regime against the Jewish people."188 According to Stern, the philosemitism that was promoted in Germany was not genuine. Philosemitism declined in the 1960s, and was replaced by a combination of anti-Semitism and philosemitism.
In 1946 attitudes on 'collective guilt' were studied, and according to historian Frank
Stern, intensely anti-Semitic people were more likely to deny collective responsibility for
Germany's past.189 Writing in 1975, psychoanalysts Alexander and Margarete Mitscherlich found that events of which the Germans were guilty of were either denied or reinterpreted
185 Ibid., 98. 186 Ibid., 145. 187 Mary Fulbrook, German National Identity after the Holocaust (Cambridge: Polity, 1999), 28. 188 Stern, 344.
54 following the war. 19° Most of the women interviewed did not believe that they were anti-Semitic while growing up in Germany. As they were young girls in Germany the women most likely did not play a large role in Germany's anti-Semitism as they were not involved in direct attacks on the Jews. Many of them possibly did not understand the term anti-Semitism while growing up.
Despite this, the women's memories regarding anti-Semitism and the Holocaust during their interviews show how the women dealt with their pasts as members of families and communities that were, at least to some extent, implicated in the Holocaust.
One reason that Hitler's anti-Semitic policies were successful in Germany was because of
feelings that already existed regarding the Jews.m Many Germans saw Jews as successful businessmen. Some Germans felt that almost everything was in Jewish hands. According to
Ruth Hildebrand who was born in 1909 and was the daughter of a civil servant in Berlin: "The
Jews were disliked because, how should I say it, everything was in Jewish hands."192 A number
of the women interviewed also had preconceived notions about Jews while they were girls in
Germany. Gertrude Knoll was born in 1931 in Widerstreit, Poland. Knoll was a member of the
BDM and attended the Lutheran Church. Her father was a farmer and also a member of the Nazi
Party. When asked what her perception of Jewish people was while she lived in Germany, Knoll responded with "I wish I could say it was good, I really do."193 She continued:
But if you want me to be honest I have to say that - there were three Jewish families in our little village. And of course they got along fine, they were just like us. But if you went to the city, everything was Jewish. Everything, because the businesses were all Jewish. And I know how upset my dad was when an acquaintance of his started, was going to start a business of his own. I can't
189 Ibid, 125. 190 Alexander Mitscherlich and Margarete Mitscherlich, The Inability to Mourn: Principles of Collective Behaviour, trans. Beverley R. Placzek (New York: Grove, 1975), 16. 191Bankier, 121. 192 Johnson, 193. 193 Gertrude Knoll, interview by author.
55 remember what it was because I was a child, but they (Jews) went together and sold everything cheaper until he was out of business.194
Knoll appeared to identify with the Jews in her village by stating that "they were just like us."
However, during her interview she also stated that
I have a friend, in fact I saw her today, she lived in a bigger city, and her father was a weaver. And he was, he was one of the better weavers because he did pictures and all that, and what would be, but he was, if he bought his wool for the weaving and the mice had gotten into it. That was his bad problem, he couldn't use it and nobody reimbursed him for that. There's so many of those stories at home that weaves through my life that I've heard over and over again. So that I know our Jews were wonderful but some weren't (laughter). And they are in business. They are smart people, and sometimes maybe we thought that they were doing that being mean, but maybe they were just so much smarter than the average bear. I don't know (laughter).195
Despite stating that they were wonderful, as she could not state that her perception of Jews was good it appears that she was attempting to portray a more positive feeling about Jews than she really had during her interview. Knoll saw a distinction between Jews in her village, "our Jews' and Jews elsewhere. Using the term "our" implies that Knoll felt a sense responsibility for the
Jews in her village. According to Bankier, Germans often helped "their" Jews more than others.196 Living in the same village made it more difficult for Knoll to view "her" Jews as the enemy.
Knoll also felt: "so very sad what happened to them you know I really do."197 Perhaps she felt sad because of the Nuremberg Laws, the boycotts, or because they were forced to wear the yellow star, but at least on some level Knoll realized that Jewish lives were changed for the worse because of the Nazis. Despite these feelings she did not aid the Jews in her village. This could have been due to the situation in Germany, or even her age at the time.
194 ibid. 195 Ibid 196 Bankier, 120. 197 Gertrude Knoll, interview by author. While Knoll was taught to be anti-Semitic in Germany through school, propaganda, and involvement in the BDM, she did not see Jews only in a negative light. Through propaganda
Knoll was taught that Jews took advantage of Germans through business and she also was taught by those around her that Jews were smart, which was another common stereotype of Jews.
Despite this somewhat positive view of Jews, Knoll continued to simultaneously see some Jews as exploiters of Germans due to the stories she was told as a child.
Knoll's reference to the fact that she wished she could say her view of Jews was good could also be due to the interview situation. Possibly some of the women presented their feelings in a more positive light because they were being interviewed by someone who was born and raised in Canada. According to oral historian Valerie Yow, from the late 1980s oral historians became aware of the ways in which they were affected by the interviews and how the
interviewer affected the interview relationship.198 Oral historian Sherna Berger Gluck states that
each interviewer will get different truths from the narrator, due to their positionality.199 The
women appeared comfortable and were fairly candid during their interviews, which could be due to the fact that they were interviewed by a woman. They may have felt even more comfortable
if a woman of their own ethnic origin had interviewed them. Despite the interviewer's nationality, any interviewer would have affected the situation. According to Freund, the relationship between the interviewer and narrator is one of power.200 This is true no matter who the interviewer is. Despite the effect of the interviewer, what the women recalled during their
interviews provided important information for this study.
198 Yow, "Do I Like Them Too Much," 54. 199 Susan Armitage and Sherna Berger Gluck, "Reflections on Women's Oral History: An Exchange," Frontiers: A Journal of Women Studies. Vol 19, No. 3, Problems and Perplexities in Women's Oral History (1998): 5. 200 Freund, "Identity in Immigration," 109.
57 Christa Janz was born in 1936 in Wuppertal, Germany. Her father was a member of the
Nazi Party, but chose to leave it.201 Janz's family also attended Lutheran church. She was not a member of the BDM as she was too young. Janz recalled during her interview that as a girl in
Nazi Germany her family "honoured" the Jews: "and if we could help in any way we would have. I don't think we knew any Jews at that time, at least I didn't, my folks maybe did but I didn't." Although Janz remembered that there was hatred toward the Jews in Germany, she did not remember herself or the rest of her family feeling that way.
Anne Boiler was born in 1924 in Bockenheim, Germany. She lived in Worms on the
Rhine River while growing up. Boiler's mother was Protestant while her father was Catholic.
Her father worked for the postal service. During her interview Boiler described her family as poor.203 Neither of her parents were members of the Nazi Party, but she belonged to the BDM because she recalled that "it was compulsory, you had to belong. As soon as you were ten years old you had to enroll there."204 Although Boiler believed that the BDM was compulsory, it was not in 1934 when Boiler was ten years old. Membership was not compulsory until March 25,
1939.205 It is possible that Boiler heard stories of how the BDM was compulsory after the war, and associated the reason for her involvement with that fact.
Despite being a member of the BDM, Boiler rarely attended events because her mother required her help.206 When asked her feelings about Jews while in Germany, Boiler remembered that "we felt so sorry for them, when they disappeared, and they wouldn't even tell
201 Christa Janz, interview by author, 3 December 2007, Winnipeg, Manitoba, tape recording. 202 Ibid. 203 Anne Boiler, interview by author. 204 Ibid 205 Welch, 231. 206 See Chapter 2 for further information. you where those people got to." Boiler said that she and her parents did not believe in Hitler's
propaganda in Germany. She said:
You know that we'll be the top and we'll be the top race and we will be the people that have the most - what would you call it? Abilities, to be leaders you know. And stuff like this. And my parents did not really believe that. When you are a Christian you accept everybody else of God's children.208
While Boiler drew reference to her family's Christian religion as a reason why they "accepted'
the Jews, many Christians in Nazi Germany were anti-Semitic. According to Gellately,
Protestant churchgoers did not want to attend services with converted Jews and demanded that
there be separate services.209 Even Catholic Jews were also given separate services. While some
Catholic leaders did speak out regarding some of the Nazis' policies, after the war with the
Soviet Union which they welcomed, they did not speak out against the persecution of the
Jews.210 There were also threads of anti-Semitism in Lutheranism. According to historian Doris
L. Bergen, in the Third Reich a movement that arose called the "German Christians" cited Luther
as a precursor of their hatred for Jews.211 Both Protestants and Catholics in Nazi Germany did
not go out of their way to assist the Jews, and in many cases even barred the converted Jews
from attending their church services. Boiler possibly did not know that all Christians in
Germany did not necessarily tolerate Jews. At the time of her interview Boiler recalled that her
family, as Christians, accepted the Jews, even though other Christians did not.
While Boiler stated during her interview that her family did not discuss their feelings
openly with their friends or neighbours for fear of what the Nazis would do to them, she
reiterated what many Germans claimed - that they could not do anything for the Jews.
207 Anne Boiler, interview by author. 208 Ibid. 209 Gellately, 131. 210 Ibid, 105. 211 Doris L. Bergen, "Catholics, Protestants, and Christian Antisemitism in Nazi Germany," Central European History, Vol. 27, No. 3 (1994): 333.
59 According to sociologist Morris Janowitz, a common argument from the Germans to prove their
innocence was that the Nazis kept facts from them and that the ruthlessness of their terror
prevented anyone from opposing their deeds.212 From the resistance movements that did exist,
such as the White Rose and anti-Hitler plot of 20th of July, 1944,213 as well as stories of Germans
helping Jews, it is clear that some Germans did find ways to oppose Hitler's policies. Welch
also disputed the statement that Germans could do nothing, as he found that Germans were
actually able to utilize the Nazi system to their own advantage. According to Welch, citizens
were able to support some policies of the regime while rejecting others.214 Although Boiler was
older during the Nazi period than other women in this study, as she was born in 1924, she also
did not attempt to help the Jews due to fear.
While some of the women interviewed did recall encountering Jews in Germany, few
recalled being friends with Jews in Nazi Germany. Although Jews constituted a small part of the
German population, some Jews lived in the various villages or cities that the women interviewed
resided in. These women were confronted with Jews in public spaces. Irma Meyer was born in
1936 and relocated to a farm in Poland during the war. Meyer stated that she was not friends
with any Jewish people in Germany, but remembered a Jewish family that lived across the street
from her aunt and remembered that "I saw them walk but I would never talk to them or didn't
greet them because I didn't really know them."215 Anne Boiler, born in 1924 and a member of
the BDM who rarely attended events, stated that she did not have any Jewish friends in Germany
212 Morris Janowitz, "German Reactions to Nazi Atrocities," The American Journal of Sociology, Vol. 52, No. 2 (September 1946): 144. 213 See Dorothy Von Meding, Courageous Hearts: Women and the Anti-Hitler Plot of 1944, trans. Michael Balfour and Volker R. Berghahn (Oxford: Berghahn, 1997) for a description of those who took part in the anti-Hitler plot of the 20th of July, 1944 and Christine Moll, "Acts of Resistance: The White Rose in the Light of New Archival Evidence" in Resistance Against the Third Reich 1933-1990, eds. Michael Ceyer and John W. Boyer, (Chicago and London: The University of Chicago, 1994): 173-200 for information on the White Rose resistance. 214 Welch, 237. 215 Irma Meyer, interview by author.
60 even though "there were a lot of Jewish people, a lot of them."216 Despite the large number of
Jews where she lived, in her words, Boiler did not remember having any relationships with Jews other than the fact that her mother's doctor was a Jew. Gertrude Knoll, born in 1931 and a member of the BDM, recalled that three Jewish families lived in her village of Widerstreit, but that "they didn't have children our own age so we never did befriend them."217 She could not remember if her parents had any Jewish friends, but recalled that they were "friendly" with Jews.
The women interviewed had numerous reasons for not becoming friends with Jews in Nazi
Germany. In most cases it was not convenient to have Jewish friends, as the women only encountered Jews from afar. Although there were countless Germans who did indeed aid
Jews,218 none of the women interviewed in this study did.
Of the few women who remembered having Jewish friends in Nazi Germany, the Jews were their relatives, in most cases through marriage. Elfie Blankenagel was born in 1928 in
Berlin, Germany. Her father was a member of the Nazi Party until 1935 when he quit.
BlankenageFs family attended Lutheran church. She had an uncle through marriage who was
Jewish and remembered that during her childhood she was: "brought up that every person is the same."219 Blankenagel was brought up by her aunt, who she described as: "a wealthy woman."220
Her aunt married a Jewish man who worked in the Hungarian Embassy and died before 1934.221
Blankenagel's Jewish friends consisted of her uncle, and "quite a few of my father's friends were
Jewish."222 During her interview Blankenagel did not recall having any preconceived notions
216 Anne Boiler, interview by author. 217 Gertrude Knoll, interview by author. 218 Gellately, 127. 219 Elfie Blankenagel, interview by author. 220 Ibid. 221 Ibid. 222 Ibid.
61 about Jews. Despite this, she saw them as another group, although it was a group that should be treated the same as "our people".223
Another woman who was related to a Jew through marriage in Nazi Germany was
Marianne Clemens. Clemens was born in 1927 and grew up in Niesky and Herrnhut. Growing up, Clemens attended Herrnhuter Brudergemeine, a church of Protestant denomination. Her
father joined the Nazi Party fairly early, but left the Party and wound up on the blacklist.224
Clemens recalled that her mother was a camp leader for the Hitler Youth. Clemens also had a
half-Jewish stepmother. She did not learn that her stepmother was Jewish until after the war.
During her interview she stated that her father believed that it was too dangerous to tell her. She recalled that "my dad never told me, that she was half-Jewish. And he married her. So, actually he did risk his life because of, you know, he was in the Nazi Party. And they didn't tell me because it was far too dangerous you know. In case you tell people."225 Clemens stated during her interview that her mother and father divorced in 1935. Her father remarried sometime
shortly after. The Nuremberg Laws included a law 'for the Protection of German Blood and
Honour' and the 'protection' law, prohibiting marriages and extramarital intercourse between
Jews and Germans.226 The Nuremberg Laws were announced in September 1935. As Clemens was a group leader in the BDM, if she knew that her stepmother was half-Jewish she could have told people about their marriage, thus putting the lives of her stepmother and father in grave danger. Clemens emphasized the fact that her father risked his life to marry this woman.
Perhaps Clemens remembered the marriage in this way in order for her to remember her father as
In Clemens' recollection of why her father was blacklisted was due to one incident that occurred when he was sent out to pretend there was a hunting accident with one Nazi who was gay. Her father refused to do that and was put on the Nazi's blacklist. 25 Marianne Clemens, interview by author. 226 Bankier, 42.
62 a hero. She also could have recalled his actions in this way after hearing details after the war about what happened to Jews in Germany and those who aided them.
At the time of her interview, Clemens appeared to look up to her stepmother even after learning that she was half-Jewish. Clemens stated:
After the war, when we had to evacuate and leave our homes I was with her. And she was, she said she was half-Jewish, she had in her genes, that instinct to come through alive. I don't know what you call it in English? To look after yourself. So actually she saved twice my life, both our lives. Because we were in a displaced persons camp and there she right away asked whether she could have a job, and it was an American commander of the thing. She had a job, she said, told him, you only have English personnel, if you want a person who speaks German I can be helpful for you. And he took her. And first thing that she did, she falsified our papers.227
Even though Clemens was thankful for her stepmother's assistance, she still believed that her stepmother possessed certain "Jewish" characteristics.
While all of the women interviewed recognized the terms "Jewish" and "anti-Semitism" most of them did not clearly understand what it meant to be Jewish while they were young girls growing up in Germany. In most cases the girls learned what a Jew was through caricatures in
Hitler's propaganda and through what they were taught by their parents, in school, and as members of the BDM. According to Gellately, in schools Jewish children were used as models to show the students how they should be able to recognize Jews.228 Although Blankenagel's uncle through marriage was Jewish, she stated in her interview that she did not understand as a child what it meant to be Jewish: "as a child I didn't know what it meant."229 Clemens recalled that as a child she associated Jewish people with the caricatures that were part of Hitler's propaganda. She remembered that "in my mind they always were you know, when they were in the papers, and when they made caricatures or, they always with the loopy nose and always
227 Marianne Clemens, interview by author. 228 Gellately, 30. really ugly. So for me if you were Jews you had to look like that you know." Clemens also associated her half-Jewish stepmother with Jewish characteristics, such as being cunning and having an instinct for survival. Although the women were taught that Jews were to be avoided, some of them had some contact with Jews, but in most cases it was only due to being related to them through marriage.
Many of the women recalled that they did not know anything about the Holocaust before the end of the Second World War. Although the women most likely did not learn the details of the Holocaust until after the war, and for some not until after immigration to Canada, some of the women made comments during their interviews that demonstrated that they knew that something was happening to the Jews in Germany. Some of the women also went out of their way during the interviews to bring up the fact that they did not know about the Holocaust while in Germany, as they brought this topic up during other sections of their interviews.
Anne Boiler was born in 1924 in Bockenheim and lived in Worms while growing up.
Boiler recalled during her interview that her aunt had an older Jewish lady as a next door neighbor. Boiler stated that one day: "she was gone. And nobody knew where she was. You had no idea where she was and what happened. And she wasn't there anymore and that was it."231 While she noticed the disappearance, Boiler recalled that she did not learn about the concentration camps until: "after the war. A little bit before, but I don't remember clearly anymore what to tell you dear. Because you did not get details whatsoever in Germany about the camps."232 Boiler's mother had a doctor who was a Jew and Boiler knew that her mother switched doctors because the doctor left Germany. She recalled:
Elfie Blankenagel, interview by author. Marianne Clemens, interview by author. Anne Boiler, interview by author.
64 See lots of people - people of the Jewish people, that had a chance, would just take off you know. Before the things got serious. And the ones that did not have a chance to get out, most of them ended up in concentration camps. We didn't know that. I told you how that was - you just woke up in the morning, those people weren't there anymore. And they just weren't there anymore. 33
Boiler knew that something "serious" would happen to those Jews that were taken away. She stated during her interview these people would take off so that they "had a chance". As Boiler was in her early teenage years she had access to at least some information regarding the fate of the Jews. But while she knew that something was going on in Germany, she most likely did not know details about the Holocaust. Boiler also perhaps confused her memories with what she found out after the war. When she found out what happened to Jews she possibly looked back on what she remembered and placed some newly learned facts in those memories. According to
Janowitz, in 1946 "the mass of Germany people have no interest in admitting more than a minimum knowledge."234 It is also possible that Boiler and the other women denied knowledge of the Holocaust while in Germany in order to deny feelings of guilt for not aiding the Jews that disappeared.
Karin Manion was born in 1941 in Berlin. Manion was very young during the war, and was not a member of the BDM. Her father was a tool and die maker, and Manion recalled that her mother enjoyed her time in the BDM. Manion also stated that she did not learn about the
Holocaust until after moving to Canada in 1954. She remembered that "we never knew about it until we saw the movie - that was in the mid-'50s I think it came out. Well, we were horrified.
We were absolutely horrified."235 As Manion was very young, she most likely did not learn about the Holocaust in Germany until the mid-1950s in Canada. According to Franklin
Bialystok, interest in the Holocaust was late in coming. He stated that Canadians knew little
233 Ibid 234 Janowitz, 141. about the event for the first 20 years after the war. Manion also remembered that her parents also did not learn about the Holocaust until the 1950s in Canada. While it is impossible to know
what Manion's parents did or did not know while in Germany, the German public had various
ways of finding out about the exterminations. Not only were many of the camps in plain view of
towns, but also Allied radio broadcasts such as the BBC discussed the extermination of the Jews by the end of 1942.237 Bankier agrees with historian Hans Mommsen who stated that "we should
ask not who knew but who wanted to believe."238 Mommsen and Bankier believe that Germans
could access information, but avoided learning that information, or believed that the information
they did receive was false. It is possible that Manion did not want to believe that her parents knew about the Holocaust because that made them partly responsible for not assisting the Jews in
Germany. By believing that her parents had no knowledge, Manion was able to retain a more
positive view of her family. In addition, Manion's parents possibly wanted to appear to their
family and others in Canada as though they did not know about the Holocaust while in Germany.
According to Gumpp, German-Canadians were eager to replace the negative stereotype with a
positive image of the good immigrant and fellow Canadian.239 Manion's parents may have
wanted to put their German past behind them and start their lives in Canada with a blank slate in
order to become good Canadians.
Irma Meyer was born in 1936 in Romania. Her father was a farmer. Meyer's family was
resettled on a farm that originally belonged to Poles. Her family attended the Lutheran church.
While Meyer was too young to be a member of the BDM, her brother was a member of the Hitler
Youth. Meyer recalled seeing Jews in ghettos as a young girl. She stated:
235 Karin Manion, interview by author. 236 Franklin Bialystok, Delayed Impact: The Holocaust and the Canadian Jewish Community (Montreal: McGill- Queen's University, 2000), 6. 237 Bankier, 113.
66 So we had to go to a certain for - with our pots or whatever and fetch our food, and you had to go by some barbed wire and there were, you know it looked very thin people in it. Now nowadays I know that these cabins that we were, like buildings we were in, were actually Jewish properties and they had put the Jews who were actually the owners of this, they had put them in ghettos and we had to pass these ghettos you know to get to our, whatever we had to fetch, our food. I mean I don't have a clear picture, but I remember that, that we had to pass this barbed wire area you know and that where we were at were such strange houses. What else do I know about Jewish people? Otherwise I didn't encounter anybody, because by then, when we came to Germany, you know '42, '43, most of them were already put away that you didn't see them.240
Although she passed ghettos as a young girl, Meyer recalled that she did not know what they were until later. Despite not knowing what they were, she did understand that the ghettos were
an awful place, and that the Jews inside were "thin". What Meyer learned about this period after
immigration to Canada affected her memories of that period. She also recalled that she did not
see Jews after 1942-43 because they were "put away". Again, she most likely combined
information she learned after the war with her memories of that period. As she was born in 1936
she was only six years old in 1942. At that age it is unlikely that Meyer could recognize that there were few Jews in Nazi society.
Elfie Blankenagel was born in 1928 in Berlin, Germany. She was not allowed to join the
BDM. Blankenagel recalled that
I didn't know that there was concentration camps and things like this. I had uncles and friends, they were mostly Jewish and I never thought anything about it. We found out this all later on. See I was a child and I didn't think much about it, I only hoped that the war's over soon and I could go to my aunt and live a decent life again.241
As Blakenagel was bom in 1928 she was older than many of the other women in this study.
Although she was fairly young, it is possible that she had some idea of what was going on,
Ibid, 115. Gumpp, 33. Irma Meyer, interview by author. Elfie Blankenagel, interview by author.
67 especially as she was close to a number of Jews. Blankenagel may also have not wanted to discuss this unfavorable topic as she stated in her interview that she did not like to think about this topic. Blankenagel chose to avoid this part of her German past, as dealing with it may have been too difficult.
Marianne Clemens was born in 1927 and was a member of the BDM and eventually became a group leader. Clemens also remembered that she did not know about the concentration camps as a child. She stated:
We didn't know about the concentration camps and so -1 mean, if parents knew about it, most parents didn't know the real thing either. And if they knew they would never discuss anything with children because it was very dangerous if you would talk about it and kids would block some out you know.242
While Clemens stated that she did not know anything about the camps, she also acknowledged that some children would block out information on that subject as it was very dangerous to talk about. It is impossible to know if Clemens was one of the children who blocked dangerous information out. Clemens also chose to discuss the fact that she did not know about the
Holocaust when questioned about the BDM. The fact that she wanted to get this point across could have been a method for Clemens to deny responsibility for having to face and think about the German past.
Christa Janz, who was born in 1936 in Wuppertal: "knew that there was hatred towards
Jews, but what we found out after the war we certainly didn't know during the war."243 As she was quite young during the war, Janz most likely learned the majority of information regarding the Holocaust many years later. She also possibly forgot what she learned as a child. While many of the women stated during their interview that they did not learn the full details of the
Marianne Clemens, interview by author. Christa Janz, interview by author.
68 Holocaust until after their arrival in Canada, this belief was a potential way to defend their actions with respect to Jews in Germany.
Several common themes emerged in the women's statements regarding Jews and anti-
Semitism in Germany. These included: feeling sympathy for Jews; not having anti-Semitic beliefs; not having Jewish friends; not learning about the Holocaust until after the war; and being able to recognize Jews through physical characteristics. These occurred regardless of the women's age or social status in Germany. Gertrude Knoll, born in 1931 and Irma Meyer, born in
1936 were daughters of farmers. Elfie Blankenagel was born in 1928 and her father owned a blacksmith business. Christa Janz was born in 1936 and her father was a mechanic while Anne
Boiler was born in 1924 and was the daughter of a postal worker. Karin Manion was born in
1941 and her father was a tool and die maker. Marianne Clemens was born in 1927 and her father was employed by the Niesky city government.
According to Bankier, a majority of Germans approved of the Nuremberg Laws because they believed these would end the terror and set limits to anti-Semitic activities.244 As long as distasteful events such as Kristallnacht did not occur, many Germans had no problems with legislation against the Jews. As most of the women in this study were very young during that period, some probably did not understand all of the Nuremberg Laws, but many did understand that the Jews did not have the same rights in Germany as they did. None of the women interviewed assisted the Jews. This could be because they had no opportunity to, or did not understand the extent to what was happening to the Jews when they were girls in Germany.
What the women recalled during their interviews relating to Jews may not be exactly what happened. According to sociologist Jean Peneff, when examining life stories in small
Bankier, 80.
69 homogeneous groups, it is easy to pick up constant omissions. Although it is impossible to determine if what these women remembered was what actually happened, in the women's interviews various omissions occurred. The women all stated that they did not know what happened to the Jews, and in most cases left it at that. As well, none of the women remembered forming any close friendships with Jews in Germany. The women's memories may have been re-creations of past events based on the events that took place both before and after it.
According to oral historian Alessandro Portelli, a remembered event has infinite possibilities, as it is a key to both everything that happened before and after it.246 In some cases these re creations change with the passage of time and with multiple re-telling. The women's memory of the events also could have changed after their time in Canada, and what they learned and experienced after immigration. Due to this, the answers received to the same questions will never be exactly the same twice. Time is a factor in the remembering of events and feelings. As
Portelli states, tales "go with time, grow with time, and decay with time."247 This process simply cannot be stopped. At the time of the interview the women either believed their answers, or purposely left details out because they did not want to confront other aspects from their German pasts.
It is also possible that the women were answering the interview questions regarding Jews and anti-Semitism with answers that they thought I wanted to hear, or with what they thought the politically correct answers were. When asked "What was your perception of Jewish people while you lived in Germany?" many of the women gave fairly short answers compared to their answers on other topics. In one instance, Irma Meyer responded to this question with "well I
Peneff, 40. Portelli, The Death of Luigi Trastulli, 1. Ibid., 60.
70 don't know if you want to know that (laughter)." From this response it is clear that Meyer realized that her answers may not be ones that I, a Canadian, would agree with. Her answer following this statement seemed reticent and basically avoided the original question. The topic of anti-Semitism was an emotionally charged subject for the women even decades after the Nazi period, as answers such as Meyer's shows. Instead of confronting their own feelings, the women focused on what they thought I, the interviewer, wanted to hear. According to Margaret and
Alexander Mitscherlich, Germans avoided intolerable emotions by "breaking all affective bridges linking them to the immediate past."249 As previously stated, in some cases we are able to learn more from what is not being said than what is being said. By being evasive when encountering emotionally charged subjects, it appears that some of the women were not able to confront their own feelings after immigration to Canada.
The women's answers could also have been affected by the fact that immediately following World War II in Germany anti-Semitism became taboo. The somewhat positive view of Jews that Knoll exhibited at the time of her interview could be due to the philosemitism in
Germany that she experienced after the war. The adoption of philosemitism, a pro-Jewish attitude, was rampant after the war.250 This pro-Jewish attitude in Germany was not always genuine. As Knoll did not immigrate to Canada until 1948, she experienced the philosemitism that was promoted in Germany at the time. Similarly to Knoll, Janz's memories that her family honoured the Jews could be because of the philosemitism she experienced in Germany after the war. As Janz did not immigrate to Canada until 1959, she also experienced philosemitism at its height. Even though the women may not have felt positively about the Jews during their
Irma Meyer, interview by author. Mitscherlich, ix. Stern, xvii.
71 interviews, they may have tried to appear so while answering the questions because they thought that was how they were supposed to feel.
Despite the cultivation of philosemitism, a number of Germans continued to blame the
Jews for the war and its aftermath. According to Stern, in the last days of the war Hitler accused the Jews of preventing a peaceful solution with England in 1941.251 Philosemitism did not change the beliefs that some Germans had ingrained in them during the Second World War.
Even in the 1950s in Germany, 28 percent of people thought that "a Jew whose parents and grandparents were born and grew up in Germany is not 'a real German'."252 The
"whitewashing" of anti-Semitism was not as successful as Germany tried to claim following the
Second World War. By the 1960s philosemitism declined, leaving a mixture of philosemitism and anti-Semitism behind.253
The women who immigrated to Canada from Germany were affected by the situation unfolding in Germany. Philosemitism was still promoted at the time that the majority of the women left Germany. The women who emigrated did not experience the evolution of German feelings and the numerous stages of coming to terms with the past that some people in Germany went through. According to Moeller, in the 1960s the silence about the crimes of the Nazis changed to a commemorative culture regarding the Holocaust.254 The 1970s saw a change to both commemoration and repentance, while the 1980s led to an explosion of memory, with numerous works regarding the Holocaust being created, including the TV series Holocaust.
This process went through yet another change with the fall of the Berlin wall. In the 1990s
251 Ibid., 12. 252 Ibid., 353. 253 Ibid., 435. 254 Robert G. Moeller, "The Politics of the Past in the 1950s: Rhetorics of Victimisation in East and West Germany," in Germans as Victims, ed. Bill Niven (New York: Palgrave Macmillan, 2006): 26. 255 Atina Grossmann, "The 'Goldhagen Effect': Memory, Repetition, and Responsibility in the New Germany," in The "Goldhagen Effect", ed. Eley, 101-102. interest in German perpetration and guilt as well as Jewish victimhood grew. The process of coming to terms with the past was still going through changes in Germany at the time this study was conducted. Not all Germans underwent these steps. The women interviewed in this study immigrated to Canada beginning in the late 1940s until 1960 and were not able to experience coming to terms with the Nazi past in Germany.
Encounters with Jews in Canada
Anti-Semitic feeling was not restricted to Germany during the Second World War. Jews living in Canada were also alienated from certain sectors of society. They were banned from entering certain establishments, and medical schools and universities had quotas set for the number of Jews they could accept. Although Canadians possessed at least some knowledge of what was happening to the Jews, the European Jewish crisis was never center stage in Ottawa.
Between 1933 and 1945 Canada only admitted 5,000 Jews, and the door to Canadian immigration opened only slightly by 1948 as the end of World War II led to feelings of guilt in both Canada and the United States regarding their previous policies towards victims of the
Holocaust.257 In their study of anti-Semitism in Canada, historians Irving Abella and Harold
Troper state that although Canada had been closed to the admission of Jews during the Second
World War, the barriers to the admission of Jews was selectively lifted by 1948.258 According to
English Professor Donna Hollenberg, while Displaced Persons began to be admitted to Canada after the war, until the founding of Israel in 1948, Canada admitted only 8,000 Jews.259 It was not until the 1950s that the number of Jews that entered Canada rose. At that time many Germans
256 Bill Niven, "Introduction: German Victimhood at the Turn of the Millenium," in Germans as Victims, ed. Niven, 7. 257 Abella, 285. 258 Ibid, 279. 259 Donna Krolik Hollenberg, "At the Western Development Museum: Ethnic Identity and the Memory of the Holocaust in the Jewish Community of Saskatoon, Saskatchewan," The Oral History Review, Vol. 27, No. 2 (Summer-Autumn, 2000): 100.
73 who lived in Germany during the war immigrated to Canada, leading to numerous encounters between German immigrants and Jews.
German immigrants encountered Jews in a number of different settings. Some Germans worked with Jews, while others lived in the same neighborhoods as Jews. Similarly to their feelings of sympathy for the Jews in Germany, the German women interviewed in this study recalled mainly positive encounters with Jews following their arrival in Canada.
Gertrude Knoll was born in Widerstreit, Poland in 1931. Her father was a farmer and her family attended Lutheran Church. While growing up in Germany, Knoll was a member of the
BDM. In 1948 she immigrated to Churchbridge, Saskatchewan. Knoll stated that her perception of Jews after immigration to Canada was the same as it was in Germany. Knoll recalled:
I don't think it had changed that much. Only that we knew what had happened to them. And that they, we felt {inaudible). I read so much about it and I can't believe things like that could happen. But, I don't know. I guess we grew up and knowing -1 remember some of the Jewish people. Because it was a medical hospital that I worked in, but when the grandmas came in they were always in private rooms you know, and always whenever their kids came in, it was my son's a doctor, my son's a lawyer, it was always. And we thought, we thought it was pretty great you know {laughter). And they were nice to us.260
Knoll also recalled that many of the Jews she encountered in Canada were quite well off. As a girl in Germany she believed that Jews were "smart" and good in business. After living in
Canada Knoll still believed this stereotype about Jews.
Knoll also was somewhat surprised that the Jewish patients where she worked immediately after immigration to Canada were nice to her. Knoll recalled that "I think that most of them felt sorry for us."261 The fact that a German immigrant believed Jews in Canada felt sorry for her is surprising, especially as by that time Knoll most likely learned details about the
260 Gertrude Knoll, interview by author. Holocaust. Knoll worked at the hospital shortly after immigration in 1948 and encountered these women fairly recently after the Holocaust. After learning what Germans did to the Jews in their home country, most Germans most likely thought that the Jews in Canada would treat them with contempt rather than with sympathy and kindness. Knoll realized that not all Germans had positive encounters with Jews. Prior to her interview for this study Knoll met with some friends of hers, who also immigrated to Canada from Germany. During her interview Knoll recounted one of the women's first experiences with a Jew in Canada. She stated:
Because I asked those ladies, I thought you might ask us that question, if we had problems with our neighbors. And this lady, Martha was telling me, she says that she was cleaning houses to work and help her family, and she says she was sent to a certain address and the door was opened and the lady recognized that she was German by the way she spoke, and slammed the door in her face and she told her what she thought of it. And - well, I'm not saying what all. And Martha said, I still can't believe it because I was so timid when I came to Canada.262
While Knoll did not have any experiences similar to this one, the fact that the Jewish women she encountered were nice was surprising in light of how some Germans were treated. As Knoll got together with friends to specifically discuss "problems with their neighbors" in Canada, she realized that her experiences were not the norm for Germans encountering Jews.
Christa Janz was born in 1936 in Wuppertal, Germany. As a child Janz was a Lutheran.
In 1959 she immigrated to Canada as the secretary to the founder of Janz Team Ministries, an evangelistic ministry. Immediately after arrival she lived in Calgary. She married a pastor and the couple settled in Peace River, Alberta. Janz recalled that after her arrival she saw Jews as:
"just normal people, I mean as far as I'm concerned they're, I have no hatred, no -1 believe they're God's people, and they're very special to me."263 Janz's view of Jews appeared to
Ibid. Christa Janz, interview by author.
75 change little after immigration to Canada. As Janz was very involved in religion, this played a role in her perception of Jewish people, although possibly only a minor factor.
Despite their religion, in Germany both Protestants and Catholics displayed anti-Semitic feelings, and did not aid the plight of the Jews. Anti-Semitism has also been equated with
Lutheranism. One group called the "German Christians" associated themselves with anti-
Semitism and cited Luther as the force behind their hatred for Jews.264 Janz stated that she had no hatred towards Jews after her arrival in Canada. Her feelings regarding Jewish people changed slightly for the better. Rather than "honouring" Jews as she did in Germany, in Canada she saw them as "normal people". These feelings could also be due to the fact that she encountered more Jews in Canada than she had in Germany rather than due to her involvement with religion.
Marianne Clemens was born in 1927 and grew up in Niesky and Herrnhut during the war.
Her father was employed by the city government. She was a member of the BDM, and eventually became a group leader. From her interview it appears that Clemens still believed some of the stereotypes about Jews after her arrival in Canada, although she stated that she did not care whether someone was Jewish or not. During her interview Clemens stated:
When I see somebody I don't think, are you Jewish, or are you something else? I don't care whether -1 learned to recognize more than other people, because I learned the little differences. And I often think, know a person is Jewish. But I couldn't care less, I mean, not to like somebody or to do like someone you have to know them, you can't just because you're Jewish you're that bad, or because you're German you're terrific, or because you're a Negro you're bad, you know, it's just different, you're different, it had nothing to do with being Jewish or not Jewish, or Christian or whatever.265
Clemens claimed that she "knew" whether or not someone was Jewish just by looking at them.
Following her immigration Clemens felt like an outsider. After her arrival in Canada in 1957,
264 Bergen, 333. she did not socialize with Canadians, as she did not feel welcome as a newcomer from Europe.
Clemens recalled:
Here especially in Oakbank, there were only oldtimers here, they came here as pioneers, they - that's their place, and they don't want any newcomers to come here. So, they were not very inviting. And like I said, we didn't have much time anyway to -1 only started participating later when I was a reporter, I started off being a reporter first for one paper, then for another paper, and then I was a reporter for all of Springfield, and then I went, you know, and then I met more people. But in the beginning, no, newcomers, especially when they came from Europe, were not very welcomed here, no.266
Clemens lived in Toronto immediately after immigration. She did not like it, so decided to move
to Regina, then Winnipeg, and eventually settled in Oakbank, Manitoba. After her arrival in
Canada she searched for Jewish characteristics, even though she stated that she felt no contempt
for Jews. As a child in Germany she learned Jewish stereotypes and still believed them after
living in Canada. Mark A. Wolfgram found during a series of interviews with Germans who
lived through the Nazi period that "some who worked to save Jewish lives claimed to be able to
recognize a Jew through distinctive physical traits or characteristics."267 Even though Clemens
thought she could recognize Jewish differences that did not mean she felt contempt towards
Jews.
Contrary to some studies, none of the women in this study became friends with Jews in
Canada. According to Freund, Germans in Canada became friends with Jews more than they did
in Germany.268 Gertrude Knoll immigrated to Canada in 1948. Knoll stated during her
interview that she was not friendswit h any Jews in Canada, but her daughter was good friends
with a Jew. The fact that they were German and her daughter's friend was of Jewish descent was
265 Marianne Clemens, interview by author. 266 Ibid 267 Mark A. Wolfgram, "Rediscovering Narratives of German Resistance: Opposing the Nazi 'Terror-State'," Rethinking History, Vol. 10, No. 2 (June 2006): 215. 268 Freund, "Troubling Memories in Nation-building," 152.
77 not discussed when the two met. Knoll stated that "he knew that we were immigrants and so on, and it was never touched, because it was too scary. It was too scary for me. I mean, and yet he was a very nice man."269 Knoll was not comfortable discussing the past with this man and believed that this topic was scary for her daughter's friend as well. Even though she described him as nice, the discussions that could potentially take place were something Knoll wanted to avoid.
This avoidance of discussing the Nazi past in Germany once in Canada was common for
German immigrants. Erika Sobkowich was born in 1939 in Liciszewy, Poland. She was a
Lutheran, and immigrated to Canada in 1955 through sponsorship with Lutheran World Relief.
After arrival to Canada she settled in Portage la Prairie. Sobkowich got a job as a domestic in a
Jewish household shortly after her arrival.270 She recalled that the Jewish family treated her well and their son taught her the English language. Although her parents knew whom she worked for,
Sobkowich did not discuss this situation with them.271 Knoll and other women in this study may have avoided getting close to Jews in an effort to avoid discussing the Holocaust and the Second
World War.
A number of women interviewed stated that they did not remember whether they were friends with Jewish people in Canada or not. When asked if she was friends with Jewish people in Canada, Anne Boiler answered: "not that I know."272 Boiler was born in 1924 in Bockenheim,
Germany. While growing up she was a member of the BDM, but rarely attended any meetings or functions. Boiler immigrated to Canada in 1953 to Red Cliff, Alberta. The fact that she did not remember any close relationships is an indication that either she did not know if any of her
269 Gertrude Knoll, interview by author. 270 Erika Sobkowich, interview by Angela Thiessen, Winnipeg, Manitoba, 7 September 2005. Interview in possession of Chair in German-Canadian Studies at the University of Winnipeg. 571 Ibid.
78 acquaintances were Jewish, or that she did not want to discuss this topic during her interview. It is likely that if she did not know whether the individuals were Jewish they were not very close acquaintances. Boiler recalled her family's relationships with the store owner where they bought their shoes and her mother's doctor as Jewish friends in Germany. Although they were acquaintances, these most likely were not close friendships. Similarly, when asked if she was friends with Jews in Canada Christa Janz recalled that "I've met a few, but not really close friends. Never had anybody live close by, or had a close relationship with any, no."273
There are many reasons why the women did not become friends with Jews in Canada.
The women's preconceived ideas about Jews may have prevented them from developing friendships with Jews in Canada. As well, the neighborhoods that the German women settled in may not have been home to many Jews. The Jews that the Germans did encounter also possibly avoided developing friendships with Germans. As with the case of Gertrude Knoll's friend, some Germans found themselves working as domestics for Jews. In this case the relationship between the two most likely was not one of friendship. From Knoll's example it is also apparent that some Jews viewed Germans with contempt. In addition, since many of the German women did not socialize with any Canadians immediately following immigration, they had few opportunities to become friends with Jews in Canada.
Some of the women remembered encountering Jews in Canada but not becoming friends with them. Irma Meyer was born in 1936 in Romania and was the daughter of a farmer. As a girl in Germany she was too young to join the BDM. Meyer immigrated to Canada in 1960 at the age of 23.274 Meyer lived in Canada for a number of years before moving to Medicine Hat to
272 Anne Boiler, interview by author. 273 Christa Janz, interview by author. 274 Meyer lived in Medicine Hat after her immigration to Canada. During her first year in Medicine Hat she worked at a bank while she waited for her teaching papers to come through, as she had been a teacher for two years in
79 teach at the college there until her retirement. Meyer recalled encountering storeowners in
Medicine Hat that were Jewish. While she was teaching at the college, Meyer recalled a conversation with her Jewish secretary. Meyer asked her secretary how she felt about Germans after what happened to the Jews. Meyer recalled:
I was the only German in my department, maybe in the whole college even. And so I remember I asked her once, I said, "oh how do you feel against me?" Because I mean everybody knows what the Germans have done to the Jews, right? And she said "no, I don't feel any different to you than" - and I believed her because the way she, she talked to me, treated me was not any different than anybody else.275
At the time of her interview Meyer seemed surprised that this woman did not feel contempt for her or other Germans. It is interesting that Meyer felt comfortable enough with her secretary to ask her this question outright, especially when she was expecting a much different answer. This
could be because she was in a position of power. Another reason she asked could be because she was curious why her secretary treated her in a way that was "not any different than anybody else."276 It appears that Meyer and her secretary had a fairly close relationship, even though
Meyer did not consider the secretary to be her friend. The secretary invited Meyer to her son's bar mitzvah and Meyer attended and stated that "it was very interesting to me."277 Despite the secretary's acceptance of Meyer, the two did not develop a close relationship. This could have been due to Meyer's feelings of guilt for what Germans did to Jews in Germany. It also could have been due to the working relationship that the two had, which did not provide them with an opportunity to form a close relationship.
Germany before immigrating. She taught grade 4 in the village of Schooler, which was near Medicine Hat, before returning to university to finish her Bachelor's Degree. She then taught at the school in Medicine Hat for a brief period before returning to university to earn her Master's Degree. She taught college before earning her Ph.D.. She taught at Laval University in Quebec for a year and a half before returning to Medicine Hat. 275 Irma Meyer, interview by author. 276 Ibid. 277 Ibid.
80 There are many reasons why the women interviewed did not develop close relationships
with Jews in Canada. One of the reasons that came up in many of their interviews was the fact that these women believed they had not had the opportunity to meet many Jews in Canada.
While Jews lived in the cities and towns that the women immigrated to, they may not have lived
in close proximity to each other. Many of the women also mentioned instances where they came
in contact with Jews, such as Irma Meyer with storeowners in Medicine Hat and her secretary.
As well, Gertrude Knoll's daughter had a Jewish friend.
Some of the women were not sure if they were friends with any Jews. A reason for the women not noticing Jews in their Canadian homes is the fact that, according to Bialystok, after the war Jews in Canada attempted to distance themselves from their European background.278
While some Jews attempted this distancing, others, including Meyer's secretary in Medicine Hat, did not try to hide the fact that they were Jewish. This could also be due to the time period, as by the time Meyer was working at the college in Medicine Hat it was the late 1970s. By that time
Jews in Canada acted differently as it was many years since the end of the war.
Another reason why close relationships did not develop between the German women and
Jews is that the German women may have felt too much shame to become friends with Jews.
According to Judaic Studies professor James E. Young, the feeling in Germany decades after the war shifted to shame for not knowing how to commemorate the Jews rather than for the mass murder committed in their country.279 Whatever the cause of the shame, these feelings possibly prevented the women from getting too close to Jews even in Canada. Some of the women, especially Meyer and Knoll, appeared scared to get too close to Jews. This could be because
""Bialystok, 7. 27 James E. Young, "Germany's Holocaust Memorial Problem - and Mine," The Public Historian, Vol. 24, No. 4. (Autumn, 2002): 71.
81 they did not want to confront the German past, or because they felt that Jews in Canada would reject them because of what happened in Germany.
The majority of the women interviewed did not believe that immigration to Canada affected their perception of Jewish people. Anne Boiler, who immigrated to Red Cliff, Alberta in 1953 stated that her perception of Jewish people was: "the same as it was before. They were people just as well as we are and they had a right to live, and we like them and loved them as our brothers and sisters like we do with everybody else."280 Boiler's response appeared to mirror philosemitic responses in Germany after the Second World War. This phrase was likely what
Boiler thought was the "correct" perception of Jews at the time of her interview. While Boiler most likely did not feel contempt towards Jews, she most likely did not love all Jews "as our brothers and sisters." Gertrude Knoll, who immigrated to Churchbridge, Saskatchewan in 1948 also did not think her perception of Jewish people "had changed that much (since immigration).
Only we knew what had happened to them."281 After reading about the Holocaust, Knoll was still surprised that it happened. Knoll also discussed what happened to her friend Martha, and stated that nothing bad happened to her personally. She seemed more concerned about what
Jews in Canada and other Canadians thought of her because she was a German. It is difficult to assess if the women's perception of Jews did change after living in Canada, especially due to the fact that it is difficult to determine their actual perceptions while in Germany. In some cases the women remembered their feelings incorrectly, or created a myth about their feelings.
The feeling of victimization was common in Germany following the Second World War.
Karen Manion immigrated to Trenton, Ontario in 1954. When asked about the movie The Diary of Anne Frank, Manion recalled: "that didn't excite us at all. Because we had similar
Anne Boiler, interview by author. Gertrude Knoll, interview by author.
82 circumstances." Manion saw both herself and her family as victims of the war. While she conceded that the Jews were also victims, and that she was horrified after learning about the
Holocaust, she did not appear to believe that their situation in Germany was any worse than her own.
According to historian Robert Moeller, Germans spent the years following the war assessing their own losses.283 Moeller states that the East Germans blamed the 'Hitler gang' for the start of the Second World War and the German suffering that occurred while West Germans claimed victim status due to the destruction caused by American and British bomber pilots.284
Most of the German women interviewed in this study immigrated to Canada during the period when Germans saw themselves as victims of the war. At the time of the interviews some of the women still saw themselves as victims. While they may have felt sympathy for what the Jews suffered in Nazi Germany, some of their sympathy was overshadowed by their own feeling of victimization.
After immigration to Canada the women in this study encountered Jews in Canada in numerous settings. Some of them knew storeowners that were Jewish, and others worked with
Jews. Others met Jews through friends or family members. Despite these encounters, none of the women in this study developed close relationships with Jews. The women in this study could not recall experiencing any negative encounters with Jews in Canada. While some of them were hindered in these encounters by their own feelings, none of them stated that they had negative encounters with Jews. In Canada the women learned further details about the concentration camps and what happened to the Jews in Europe, but that did not compel the women to seek out and befriend Jews. The women were sympathetic to what the Jews suffered in Germany. Some
282 Karin Manion, interview by author. 283 Moeller, "The Politics of the Past," 27.
83 of the women were surprised that the Jews they encountered in Canada did not treat them with
contempt. For example, Irma Meyer was surprised that her Jewish secretary acted friendly towards her. While some of the women still retained some of their previous beliefs, such as
believing Jews possessed certain characteristics, for many of the women their immigration to
Canada provided them with new knowledge and a greater understanding about not only what
Jews suffered, but about Jews themselves.
Women's Views of Multiculturalism
Canada officially adopted the policy of multiculturalism in 1971. All of the women in this study immigrated between 1947 and 1960 when the policy of multiculturalism was not in effect. Instead of being a society where different cultures were welcomed and encouraged, at the time the women immigrated, immigrants in Canada were made to feel like outsiders. The policy
of multiculturalism aimed to promote the continuation of the ethnic traditions and language of
immigrants to Canada.285 By examining how the women viewed multiculturalism at the time of their interviews I will explore how the women felt about new immigrants to Canada. Were they
in favor of multiculturalism, or did they see it as something that only created more problems in
Canada? Did they believe that new immigrants should assimilate into the "Canadian" way of
life? Women who dealt with their pasts in Germany would most likely be more open to multiculturalism. Niven states that "in accepting the mistakes of the past, Germans will be more
able to welcome the multi-cultural society that is becoming the norm today."286 To accept the policy of multiculturalism also meant that the women accepted Jews and Jewish culture in
Canadian society. If the women were still anti-Semitic, most likely they would not agree with
284 Ibid., 28-29. 285 Reg Whitaker, Canadian Immigration Policy Since Confederation (Ottawa: Canadian Historical Association, 1991), 23. 286 Niven, Facing the Nazi Past, 5.
84 multiculturalism. According to Hollenberg, the policy of multiculturalism also changed the political climate for Jews in Canada.287 I will also examine whether the women discussed the topics of anti-Semitism and multiculturalism with their families and friends in Canada, whether the women clearly understood these issues, as well as whether the women tried to avoid discussing these issues during our interview.
Although multiculturalism seeks to promote the continuation of the ethnic traditions and language of immigrants, historian Patricia E. Roy states that some individuals argue that multiculturalism actually encourages assimilation, denies the real socioeconomic needs of minorities, and effectively makes immigrants second-class citizens.288 Some women interviewed in this study believed that multiculturalism was a positive policy while some of the women disagreed with it. Others did not disagree with the entire policy but believed that some aspects of multiculturalism were good, as long as the new immigrants to Canada continued to follow certain codes of behavior.
As the women themselves were not born in Canada, some of them were in favor of a policy that allowed new immigrants to retain cultures from their home country. Anne Boiler, who immigrated to Red Cliff, Alberta in 1953 at the age of 19 believed that multiculturalism was a good thing for Canada "because we are all God's children."289 Boiler also added that even when she was in Germany she felt the same way, "but we had to be very careful, very careful, you could not say or sing anything like that."290 Rather than discussing multiculturalism in
Canada, Boiler switched to a discussion about Germany. Boiler wanted to demonstrate that she had always been open-minded about other cultures. It is difficult to determine exactly how she
Hollenberg, 117. Roy, 201. Anne Boiler, interview by author.
85 felt in Germany, but at the time of Boiler's interview she stated that she saw all Canadians as the same, regardless of their culture.
Gertrude Knoll immigrated to Canada shortly after the Second World War, in 1948 at the age of 17 to Churchbridge, Saskatchewan. When asked what she thought about multiculturalism,
Knoll stated: "I think it's wonderful. I don't see anything wrong with it."291 Despite this positive response, Knoll continued with the statement: "It just scares me a little bit now, you know. Sometimes I wonder what could happen because there's so many different kinds of people here. You just have to hope (laughter).'"292 Even though Knoll agreed with multiculturalism, she was scared of how it could affect the future. From her statements it appears that she was worried about potential fights arising from the "different people" in Canada.
This fear possibly arose from what Knoll experienced in Germany, or was due to arguments amongst cultures in other countries that she learned about. Despite this fear, Knoll stated that new immigrants had as much a right as she did to live in Canada. She recalled that "my family was welcomed here after a terrible war fought. I can't say that I wouldn't want anybody here in
Canada. If I was welcome, everybody's welcome."293 As Knoll immigrated to Canada in 1948 her family was most likely not welcomed by members of Canadian society. Rather, her family was allowed to live in Canada. Due to their receptions once they arrived in Canada, many
Germans who immigrated following the Second World War mostly assimilated into the
Canadian community and abandoned many of their ethnic traits and affiliations.294 Knoll either preferred to remember her situation that way, or created a myth about her reception in Canada after immigration, especially after the policy of multiculturalism came into effect.
291 Gertrude Knoll, interview by author. 292 Ibid. 293 Ibid. 294 Gumpp, 107.
86 Elizabeth Redekopp also believed that multiculturalism was a good thing. Redekopp
immigrated to Canada in 1947 to the Gretna and Rosenort area in Manitoba at the age of 20.
Redekopp stated that she was amazed that there were so many different people in Canada, but
said that this did not bother her. She stated:
I'm amazed that there's so many different people, you know. So many different people. You see, I went to Germany a few times. Because my sisters live there. Now they have all died, but anyway, they - you know, and I noticed there is a lot of culture already too. You know. You see, what Hitler wanted to do, that's what I always heard about. They wanted just Germans. Just Germans. And now when I think about it, when I came back there you know the (laughter) there's all kinds of people now, all kinds of people there now. And so, no - it has never bothered me you know that I'm - that so many different, because I came here too (laughter). I immigrated here too you know. And what can I say?
Redekopp was thankful that she immigrated to Canada and believed that others should be
allowed to do the same. As Redekopp also immigrated to Canada shortly after the Second World
War, she most likely did not receive a welcome reception in Canada. Despite this, what she
experienced in the last four decades made her appreciate her immigration to Canada and she
recalled it as a positive experience. She also compared her recent visit to Germany and the
different cultures she saw there with Canada. This comparison may have made the situation in
Canada more acceptable to Redekopp.
Some of the women interviewed did not agree with some aspects of the policy of multiculturalism. In many cases the aspect that the women did not agree with was the fact that
new immigrants to Canada were allowed to retain many of their home country's customs,
especially the celebration of religious holidays. The majority of women interviewed agreed that
Canada should allow immigrants, but were outspoken regarding which customs the immigrants
should be allowed to practice in Canada.
Elizabeth Redekopp, interview by author.
87 Elfie Blankenagel immigrated to Ottawa in 1954 at the age of 26. Blankenagel thought
that multiculturalism was "all right" in Canada, but also offered some conditions on how new
immigrants should behave. She stated:
If they behave and behave like Canadians. I don't mind, but I don't like when some East Indian people come and they like to wear their turban, like the RCMP you know - remember years ago? He wanted to put his turban on. I think if you are Canadian you should live like a Canadian. It's nice if you keep your - the way you be at home it's fine. But not, first you be a Canadian.296
While Blankenagel welcomed new immigrants, she believed that the immigrants should be thankful to the Canadian government and make every effort to behave in an acceptable
"Canadian" manner. This may be due to the fact that when she immigrated the policy of multiculturalism was not in effect, and made some changes to her own culture to assimilate into
Canadian society.
Marianne Clemens immigrated to Canada in 1957 at the age of 30. Clemens also thought that multiculturalism was good some of the time. She believed that
It's nice that we have all the cultures, but it's not nice when they start fighting with each other and being mean you know. I mean it's nice if you have all those different things. But, I mean, it's not often that it all comes together. We all keep - every nationality has their own club, you know you have the Ukrainian club and the Scottish and the German club. And there they are just German. And lots of them, I never could understand when they come here - they came voluntarily, they were not forced to come here, you come here because you wanted, most of them came because you wanted a better life. And then once you had that better life then they had the big mouths off, and wanted this and wanted that, and it isn't that, instead of too many are not - didn't change into Canadians.297
Clemens had some difficulties in the small town of Oakbank, Manitoba following her
immigration because she was a German immigrant. She believed that immigrants should change some aspects of their culture in order to fit in to Canadian society. While she thought that some aspects of culture should be retained, she also believed that if people immigrated to Canada
Elfie Blankenagel, interview by author.
88 voluntarily they should make changes to become a "Canadian". Clemens was critical of German
immigrants who sought to retain a significant amount of their German culture, especially through
German clubs. In Clemens's view, to be a Canadian meant to make some sacrifices in order to
fit in.
One reason that emerged for the women's fear of multiculturalism was the possibility of
Canada being changed by the customs of the new immigrants, such as religious holidays and
wardrobes. As well, some of the women feared fighting amongst the new immigrants. Many of
the women interviewed believed the newer immigrants to Canada retained more elements of their home country's cultures than they themselves did as new immigrants. While there were numerous German clubs in Canada, none of the women interviewed belonged to those clubs.
Although they retained their traditional foods and other elements of their cultures, the German
immigrants interviewed overall "blended in" to Canadian society.
According to historian Gerhard Bassler, it took German Canadians a long time to recover
from their status as pariahs.298 Bassler states that the recovery of German immigrants from this
status was slowed by the resurgence of public consciousness about the Nazi atrocities in the
1970s and 1980s. Trying to recover from this status was possibly another reason that these
women sought to leave certain aspects of their culture behind them. Instead of making efforts to
retain their German customs, some of the women avoided drawing unwanted attention to
themselves. The assimilation of the women gave them an opportunity to avoid their German past
in Canada by disassociating themselves from their German heritage.
Marianne Clemens, interview by author. Gerhard P. Bassler, The German Canadian Mosaic Today and Yesterday: Identities, Roots and Heritage (Ottawa: German-Canadian Congress, 1991), 5.
89 Some of the women in this study did not agree with the policy of multiculturalism.
Christa Janz immigrated to Canada in 1959 at the age of 23 and did not agree with the policy.
During her interview Janz stated: I think personally that multiculturalism is not a good thing. I have nothing against - I'm an immigrant, so I am very loyal to Canada. And I do not agree with, with anybody coming here and desiring to stay the way they have been. I think if we come to Canada and enjoy the country and the freedom then we should also be willing to be loyal to the country. I don't think anybody would have anything against it if I as a German for instance celebrate my German holidays. But I do not think that it would be right for me to demand that, for instance, if I would be working at this time, that my boss would have to give me a free day when there is a German holiday. Then I should fit into the society here, as it is, and be thankful that I can live here. I think multiculturalism has done a bad number to our 299 country.
Janz described herself as very loyal to Canada, and did not agree with the fact that immigrants were allowed to practice their country's customs in Canada. Janz's feelings regarding multiculturalism could have been different from the other women for many reasons. Unlike the others, Janz immigrated to Canada and then moved back to Germany while her children were growing up. She lived in Canada for five years before returning to Germany. She originally immigrated due to her work, as a secretary for Janz Team Ministries, and therefore had different experiences following immigration. Despite Janz's strong words denouncing other immigrants' demands pertaining to their culture, following our interview Janz provided an assortment of
"German" baking to sample. This is one aspect of her culture that she retained in her new country. Even though she expected other immigrants to "blend in", elements of her own culture such as baking were acceptable to retain. According to Iacovetta, the willingness of post-war immigrants to adapt to "Canadian ways" did not mean a willingness to eradicate their customary
Christa Janz, interview by author. ways. While the women did make many efforts to assimilate, baking was one aspect of their culture that they chose to retain.
While arriving under different circumstances and to different areas in Canada each
woman had somewhat different feelings regarding the policy of multiculturalism. While some viewed multiculturalism in a slightly better light than others, none of the women agreed entirely with this policy. Christa Janz thought multiculturalism was bad for Canada, but still felt that she as a German should be able to celebrate German holidays in Canada but not receive time off from employers. Part of the women's feelings about multiculturalism could stem from what they were taught in Nazi Germany. Hitler saw Jews and other "non-Aryan" groups as threats to
German society and sought to "Germanize" Germany through elimination. Although Hitler's policies may have affected the women's beliefs to some extent, none of them viewed other ethnic groups as dangerous to the same degree. Although none of the women in this study completely rejected the policy of multiculturalism, some of the women in this study were worried about the possibility of fighting amongst different cultures in Canada. They believed that Canadian policies should make a greater effort to "Canadianize" new arrivals through a process of assimilation as they themselves were Canadianized after immigration.
How the women dealt with their status as German immigrants also affected the way that they viewed multiculturalism. The majority of Germans who immigrated to Canada following the Second World War assimilated linguistically through their use of the English language and culturally as they sought to become an invisible ethnic group. One part of their German culture that the women could not leave behind them was their accent. In her interview Gertrude Knoll
300 Iacovetta, Gatekeepers, 294.
91 still made reference to the fact that she stood out because of her accent: "Because everybody knew that I was {inaudible) we were immigrants, people still know it because I still have an accent (laughter)"*01 Similarly, at the time of her interview Elfie Blankenagel stated that "my
English is right now, I don't think very good. I still have an accent and I don't think I will lose that (laughter)."*02 Both Knoll and Blankenagel appeared self conscious about their accents.
This indicator that they were German immigrants was the one thing that they could not hide while trying to blend in to Canadian society.
According to Bassler, a minority of immigrants sought to preserve their German heritage and devoted themselves to maintaining ethnic organizations, social clubs, educational institutions, cultural events, and churches.303 None of the women interviewed in this study developed any long-lasting relationship with the German clubs in Canada. Elfie Blankenagel was once a member of a German Club but decided to leave it. During her interview she stated:
I was a member of the German Club and I am not in there anymore because those people, they don't see eye to eye. They are gossiping and all this and I - we didn't do that at home you know. We didn't do that here too. So I didn't go anymore.304
At the time of her interview Blankenagel saw herself as a Canadian. She separated herself from the Germans involved in German clubs by referring to them as "those people". Even though she too immigrated from Germany she saw a demarcation between the Germans who fought to retain their culture and those who consciously blended into Canadian society.
While none of the women belonged to German clubs, many continued to belong to
German churches after immigration. In fact, it was through their membership in German churches in Canada that the majority of the women were recruited for this study. The women
301 Gertrude Knoll, interview by author. 302 Elfie Blankenagel, interview by author. 303 Bassler, The German Canadian Mosaic, 12.
92 viewed religion as an acceptable cultural characteristic to retain. Cooking traditional food from their home country was another acceptable practice which many of the women continued in
Canada.
Christa Janz immigrated later than many of the other women, in 1959. She saw herself as
Canadian "100 percent. We fly a flag (laughter)."*05 Gertrude Knoll immigrated earlier, in 1948 and also saw herself as a Canadian. She stated that "I think I am one of the best (laughter). I always vote (laughter). Yes I feel like a Canadian."306 Irma Meyer immigrated after all of the other women in this study, in 1960. While she recognized that part of her was nevertheless
German, Meyer felt mainly Canadian. She stated that "Oh yes I feel Canadian. Oh yes because
I've been back many times to Europe, I don't know 20 times or what. And I don't feel at home there anymore. Although all my relatives are there and everything, but it's so different. No, I think I'm a Canadian."307 As she arrived later, Meyer appeared to be slightly less sure of her
Canadian status than women who immigrated earlier.
Karin Manion immigrated at the age of 13 and also saw herself as Canadian. Manion stated that "Oh I see myself as a Canadian (laughter). Absolutely. Because I have - I've spent many more years of my life in this country."308 Contrary to Meyer, Manion immigrated to
Canada in 1954 at a much younger age. Despite feeling Canadian, Manion also believed that she retained German characteristics after immigration. Manion stated during her interview that
I think I likely still have some German values. I was always a little bit of an outsider going to high school here. I didn't like the same things that the students liked in those days - rock and roll music and stuff like that, I just didn't like that. So I stood out from the crowd.309
304 Elfie Blankenagel, interview by author. 305 Christa Janz, interview by author. 306 Gertrude Knoll, interview by author. 307 Irma Meyer, interview by author. 308 Karin Manion, interview by author. 309 Ibid
93 Even though Manion immigrated as a teenager she still felt she retained many German values that set her apart fromth e Canadians in her school.
Anne Boiler, who immigrated to Canada in 1953, described herself as "Swiss Canadian."
Boiler stated that "my husband is Swiss and as such, through marriage, I became a Swiss citizen.
So we have dual citizenship. My husband is Swiss Canadian and so am I. And our children are the same."310 This is an interesting statement because even though Boiler was originally from
Germany she did not refer to herself as a German Canadian, only Swiss Canadian. She chose to leave the German aspect of her identity out of her description of herself and her children.
Whatever her reason for leaving this aspect out of her description, Boiler certainly was not alone in leaving the "German" aspect out of her identity at the time of their interview.
As some of the women stated in their interviews, they spent a much longer period of their lives in Canada than Germany. This may be one of the main reasons that the women felt more
Canadian than German. They also could have described themselves as Canadian because that is how they wanted to be seen by other members of Canadian society. According to Dieter
Haselbach, it has been argued that to be of German descent was a stigma in Canadian society.311
Germans who immigrated to Canada underwent the process of cultural transition quickly after arrival.312 The women in this study potentially made an effort to be seen as exemplary
Canadians. All of the women in this study adopted a "Canadian" identity. Some feared multiculturalism because they were worried it would create fighting or other difficulties in
Canada. The women could have felt this way due to stories they heard about other nations.
They also could have feared change in the country they saw as their own. It could be due to the fact that they gave up aspects of their identities and believed that individuals who immigrated to
310 Anne Boiler, interview by author. 311 Haselbach, 6.
94 Canada after them should be required to do the same. By coming to the conclusion that some assimilation was required to fit into Canadian society, the women learned after immigration to
Canada that this was what was expected. After receiving criticism from their Canadian neighbors and associates they blended into Canadian society and thought that new arrivals should do the same.
Conclusion
Immigration from Germany to Canada led to encounters with Jews as well as immigrants of other cultures in Canada. As immigrants themselves, the women were faced with a much different society and way of life than they left behind. Both anti-Semitism and multiculturalism are terms that the women were familiar with and understood. During my interviews not one woman interviewed needed the term "multiculturalism" defined and clearly understood what this term entailed. The women also did not avoid these topics in their interviews, and they did not appear to be topics that the women had not discussed before. Gertrude Knoll made a point of discussing encounters with Jews with her friends prior to her interview. The women answered questions pertaining to how they viewed Jews as well as their views on multiculturalism with great clarity and confidence.
Although the women did not avoid these topics during their interviews, in some cases it appeared that these women responded with the answers that they felt were the ones I wanted to hear. This could be due to the fact that I, although a woman and someone the interviewees appeared comfortable talking to, am not German. According to anthropologist Francesca
Cappelletto, despite, or perhaps as a result of, these somewhat exaggerated or incorrect responses, we can learn both what the women wished they had done, and what they believed they
Forchner, 208.
95 had done. For the purposes of this study we could also include what the women wished they had felt. From the women's responses we are able to analyze what the women's families and communities did not do in terms of either helping or persecuting the Jews and other ethnic groups both in Germany and in Canada to determine how the women recalled that time period in their lives. It is not necessarily what the women did, but also what the women did not do, that still affected them at the time of their interview. Because they did not help Jews in Germany the women possibly felt some guilt, especially after learning further information about the Holocaust in Canada.
None of the women in this study developed any close friendships with Jews in Canada, but that does not mean that they were anti-Semitic. In some cases the lack of relationships with
Jews could be due to where the women lived, but also what type of relationship they had with
Jews. For example, Irma Meyer's secretary was a Jew and in this boss-employee dynamic few people would have found it easy to become close friends with each other. As well, some of the women, including Gertrude Knoll, did not feel comfortable talking to Jews because they were scared of what the Jews would think of them. Another possibility is that the women thought that
Jews would not want to be friendswit h a German because of what happened in Nazi Germany.
A number of contradictions existed in the German women's view of "the other". As immigrants themselves once, these women did not view either Jews or other immigrants in
Canada with contempt. Rather, they believed that everybody had a right to live in Canada, as they too were allowed into Canada at a time when it was not popular to be German. Some of the women displayed a philosemitic view of Jews and emphasized that they had not had any anti-
Semitic feelings. Instead the women stated that they honoured the Jews, or viewed them the
313 Francesca Cappelletto, "Introduction," in Memory and World War II: An Ethnographic Approach., ed. Francesca Cappelletto (Oxford and New York: Berg, 2005): 12.
96 same way they did everyone else. Along with this philosemitic view, some women still believed some of the stereotypes that they were taught as children in Germany. For example, some of the women claimed to be able to identify a Jew through their physical characteristics. Some of the women saw Jews as being well off and successful in business in Canada, which was a common stereotype in Nazi Germany.
Although the women believed immigrants of other nationalities should also be able to immigrate to Canada, the idea of multiculturalism still contained problems for many of them.
While most of the women believed that the immigrants should be allowed to retain some aspects of their culture, many saw acts such as wearing a turban or being given time off to celebrate their country's holidays in Canada as defying Canadian customs. Some women may have felt this way due to what they learned in Germany under the Nazis, while others may have felt this way because of negative experiences after immigration in Canada. While none of the women in this study spoke of personal negative experiences, Gertrude Knoll did discuss an experience of one of her friends. It is possible that some of the women in this study had some difficult encounters with Canadians, but either blocked them from their memories or did not wish to discuss those memories during their interviews. Similarly to conservative Canadians, the women in this study felt that immigrants should change certain aspects of their cultures in an effort to assimilate into
Canadian society.
Many of the women managed to avoid the issue of the Holocaust and anti-Semitism in
Canada. While not becoming close to Jews, either through simple proximity or avoidance, none of the women examined their feelings of guilt. Their pasts are one factor that prevented them from forming close relationships with Jews in Canada. During their interviews the women portrayed an open-minded attitude, about Jews both in Nazi Germany and in Canada as well as
97 multiculturalism. Despite this displayed open-mindedness, many of the women still held the belief that those living in Canada should become assimilated into a true "Canadian" and leave aspects of themselves that made them an "other" behind. The women demonstrated that they have not dealt their pasts as members of a community that was implicated in the crimes committed under National Socialism as, even after the past 40 to 60 years, they were unable to get close to Jews in Canadian society and felt that "the other" was a danger to Canadian society.
98 Chapter Four
Memories of the War
This chapter examines how the women interviewed in this study experienced the Second
World War while they lived in Nazi Germany, as well as how they remembered the war after
living in Canada for roughly 40 to 60 years. I examine how the women's feelings changed after
living in Canadian society by analyzing how the women looked back on their pasts in Nazi
Germany many years after the events took place. Although the Second World War took place
from 1939 to 1945, life in Germany was not clearly marked by these dates. The relatively prosperous period in Germany immediately following Hitler's seizure of power in 1933 until
1942 will be discussed to some extent, but this chapter focuses on the period from 1942 until
1948, when Germans experienced many hardships during both the last stages of the war and
immediately following the war. I examine the women's experiences during the war and their
memories of these experiences after their immigration to Canada to determine if they dealt with their German pasts. What did the women remember and what did they avoid discussing during their interviews?
In Germany the term used to describe how Germans came to terms with their past is
Vergangenheitsbewaltigung. Writing in 1959, philosopher and social critic Theodor Adorno
asked Germans "what does coming to terms with the past mean?" and Moeller stated that nearly five decades later, Germans were still asking the same question. 14 A number of scholars explained the concept of 'coming to terms' with the past. Ruth Wittlinger, a lecturer in politics,
TIC defines 'coming to terms' as addressing questions of responsibility and guilt. Wittlinger states
314 Robert G. Moeller, "What Has 'Coming to Terms With the Past' Meant," 224. 315 Ruth Wittlinger, "Taboo or Tradition? The 'Germans as Victims' Theme in the Federal Republic until the mid- 1990s," in Germans as Victims, ed. Niven, 75. that fromth e 1960s to the 1990s Germans were devoted to coming to terms with the past, which eclipsed the theme of Germans as victims which had existed earlier. Jeffrey Olick, a professor of sociology and history, also questioned "what it means to normalize the past?" Olick discusses
Adorno's preference for "working through the past" (Aufarbeitung der Vergangenheit) over
"mastering the past" (Vergangenheitsbewaltigung).316 According to Olick, mastering the past is a way to silence it. The past must be worked through in order to come to terms with it. German historian Alf Ludtke states that Adorno believed that 'coming to terms' was a misleading notion.
Most Germans chose to forget the past instead of confronting it.317
In this study the term "coming to terms" is not used, but rather this study tries to find how the women have dealt with their pasts as Germans. I define "dealing with the past" as whether or not the women understood the wrongs committed under National Socialism and acknowledged the role of their families and communities in those wrongs. This study also examines how the women remembered their situation in Germany during the war. For example, did they see themselves as victims? Along with examining the women's memories of the war, whether or not the women attended Remembrance Day ceremonies in Canada will also be assessed to demonstrate how the women remembered the Second World War at the time of their interview.
Did they feel the need to commemorate the German suffering the Nazis caused, or did they see the ceremonies as a celebration of the Nazis' defeat? This chapter also examines if the women discussed the Second World War with their families and friends in Canada, whether or not the women tried to avoid discussing the war during their interviews, as well as if the women clearly understood the reasons behind the war. The answers will determine if the women looked back on the Second World War at all after immigrating to Canada, and if they dealt with the role that
Olick, 548-9. Ludtke, 550.
100 Germany played in the war. Has immigration to Canada allowed the women to avoid their pasts in Germany or has immigration allowed to women to reflect on their lives in Germany during the period 1933 to 1948?
The Outbreak of the Second World War and German Morale
In 1933, German citizens did not support Hitler because they thought that he would start the next world war. Rather, many Germans supported Hitler because they believed that he could lead Germany out of its economic depression. Hitler did institute a number of reforms that managed to get Germany back on track. In 1933 over one-third of the working population was unemployed. By the summer of 1939 this figure was reduced to 74,000.318 According to historian David Welch, once the Nazis achieved power, their social welfare program and the use of propaganda ensured at least passive support for the regime.319
After 1933 the secret rearmament in Germany was expanded and by October Germany withdrew fromth e League of Nations.320 In March of 1936 German troops reoccupied the
Rhineland,321 but the country of most concern to Hitler was Poland.322 Returning the city of
Danzig to German rule united German nationalists. Taking over Danzig would also leave the
Poles without access to a waterway. Hitler believed that German dominion over Poland was necessary in order to guarantee the supply of agricultural products and coal for Germany. It was the German attack on Poland that led Europe into the Second World War.
German victories in the west between April and June 1940 improved German morale.
Although most Germans were not in favour of the Second World War, they reluctantly endured it at the beginning. According to historian Jeremy Noakes, the German population was delighted
318 Welch, 227. 319 Ibid, 214. 320 Overy, 37-40. 321 Ibid, 41.
101 with the speedy successes Hitler brought them.323 Jill Stephenson found that Germans showed
interest in Germany's successes but were surprised by new invasions and wanted the war to
end.324 Despite the early successes, Germans soon tired of the war. Historian Marlis G. Steinert
states that the first bombing raid on Berlin on August 24,1940 was a shock to Germans.325 The term Schickalsgemeinschaft means "community of fate".326 It has been argued that bombing
strengthened the community of fate on the home front. German historian Neil Gregor argues that the community of fate idea was an invention of Nazi propaganda, and does not believe that the
bombing Germans experienced during the Second World War strengthened the home front.327
Instead, the bombing brought many social and cultural tensions within German society to the
forefront. During the crisis with England in 1940 opinion in Germany fluctuated. According to
Steinert, the main hope in Germany was that the war would end before winter. This fluctuating
mood prevailed for the next few years. By 1943 German morale was extremely low.328 Steinert
found that by the time of the Allied landings on June 6,1944 the German population felt
relief.329
During the early stages of the war, Germany made many successful advances. Hitler's
changes and the start of the war kick-started the German economy. But despite the early period
of progress, life in Germany was affected by the continuing war. This difficult period of the war
and its aftermath will be focused on in the next section of this chapter to determine what the
women went through, and how they recalled those experiences at the time of their interviews.
322 Danzig was Poland's access to the Baltic and gave the Poles a corridor of territory. 323 Noakes, 656. 324 Stephenson, 199. 325 Marlis G. Steinert, Hitler's War and the Germans: Public Mood and Attitude During the Second World War, ed. and trans. Thomas E.J. De Witt (Athens, Ohio: Ohio University, 1977), 77. 326 See Neil Gregor, "A Schicksalsgemeinschaft? Allied Bombing, Civilian Morale, and Social Dissolution in Nuremberg, 1942-1945," The HistoricalJournal, Vol. 43, No. 4. (Dec., 2000). 327 Ibid, 1051. 328 Steinert, 212.
102 War Losses
From 1942 to 1948 Germany went through a period of crisis due to bombing, the Soviet invasion, and war casualties. According to historian Elizabeth Heineman, this was also a time when women dominated the physical landscape and played a role in their community's survival.330 From 1942 onwards women in Germany assumed much stronger roles.331 The
German army suffered a disaster at Stalingrad in early 1943 and from that point the war and its brutalities were brought home.332 Women took on male occupations and remained in these occupations until the currency reform in 1948 when efforts to make women return to their homes increased due to a rise in unemployment.333
According to historian D.G. Williamson, Germany remained in a state of 'repressed inflation' until the currency reforms in June of 1948.334 Following the end of the Second World
War, life in Germany went through a number of changes. The landscape in Germany changed as there was widespread population movement. The Allies divided Germany into four Zones of
Occupation which were controlled by the Soviet Union, the United States, Great Britain, and
France. According to Williamson the currency reform was a crucial step in the division of
Germany.335 The Deutschmark (DM) was introduced in the American, British, and French zones on June 20 and three days later the Russians introduced their own currency reform on June 23.336
Britain and America rejected the Soviet proposal for the circulation of the East Mark within
Berlin. A blockade of the Soviet Zone began on the night of June 23. It was not until March of
329 Ibid, 258. 330 Heineman, "The Hour of the Woman," 356. 331 Hans Werner, '"Kinder, Kiiche, Kirche': Recreating Identity in Postwar Canada" in A Chorus of Different Voices: German-Canadian Identities, eds. Sauer and Zimmer, 214. 332 Ludtke, 548. 333 Freund, "Identity in Immigration," 17. 334 D.G. Williamson, Germany from Defeat to Partition 1945-1963 (Essex: Pearson Education Limited, 2001), 18. 335 Ibid, 29. 336 Ibid, 29.
103 1949 when the German Democratic Republic was approved, which officially separated Germany into East and West.
During the war families in Nazi Germany were also torn apart as the men went off to fight and the women and children remained at home. Those left behind faced many hardships, including the loss of relatives and friends, bombing, flight from their homes, and rape. Children grew up without their fathers and were forced to take on many adult roles. There was not much time for fun and games during their childhood. As Christa Janz, born in Wuppertal, Germany in
1936 summed up her childhood in Germany: "there was really not much joy."337
The loss of their fathers and other male relatives was a common experience for many children in Germany. Not only were these men gone during the war, but many also did not return home immediately following the end of the war. Instead some spent time in prisoner-of- war camps. According to Heineman, women's narratives of the war rarely began on September
1, 1939.338 Rather, the recollections of the majority of German women usually began with the date of their husbands' or fathers' departures.
Irma Meyer was born in 1936 and was a young child when the war broke out. Despite this, at the time of her interview Meyer appeared to still be affected by the day that her father, a farmer in Germany, left for the war in 1943. During her interview Meyer stated:
The biggest memory I have, the day that my dad had to leave to join the army. Because I mean we already had some people in our family who were killed in the war and so you didn't know whether your dad would come back right? So I remember that was a very emotional day and I mean my parents behaved - how should I say? They of course were very sad, everybody cried, and I have never had that since. Before that my dad would take all of us and they would bless us, you know as if this was for good. And then, this was 1943,1 didn't see him again -1 don't think so, I can't remember that I saw him again until 1947.339
337 Christa Janz, interview by author. 338 Heineman, "The Hour of the Woman," 359. 339 Irma Meyer, interview by author. Understandably, Meyer was worried that her father would be killed in the war. At the time of her interview Meyer believed that this event stayed with her from the day her father left. As she was only seven years old at the time, it is possible that Meyer became more worried about her father later, especially after she heard of others in her family being killed.
Women also were forced to live without other male relatives who left to serve in the army. Irma Meyer lost a number of family members in the war. She stated that "three of my uncles were killed in the war, one of my cousins, he was only 16, he was killed in the war. And I remember my aunt when she heard that, that her son, she didn't hear it until two to three years later."340 The war was a difficult time for many women, as they did not know what was happening to their loved ones.
Each of the women who lost men during the war were affected in different ways. For those who lost distant relatives the impact was not as high. For those women who lost people they were close to the loss was felt much more severely, both emotionally and economically.
With the departure of men, women and girls were forced to work at back-breaking tasks and to provide food and shelter for their families.341 Janz recalled a number of chores she took on as an adolescent girl in Nazi Germany during the war. According to Janz:
Oh, I had to do a lot of things. I had two younger brothers and, as I said, my father was in the war, and so my mother had to take care of us, which made me more an adult pretty early. But during the war yet I had to - we lived with an old lady and my mother was responsible to help her get dressed if there was an alarm, and I had to be responsible for my little brothers. And I remember one time telling my mother that I just wished so much I could sleep again without my clothes on. So that was, those were hard times. And so, then I had to do a lot of cleaning, my mother taught me how to clean, and she taught me how to sew and knit, I mean we learnt that to an extent in school, but, yeah, I had to darn socks. And lots of them. Because my brothers, you know in those days the socks
Williamson, 5.
105 weren't all that good as here, as now. Yeah, I was very busy. There wasn't much time for playing either in those days.342
With the departure of so many men, women were forced to participate in the traditionally male sphere as well as to take on more tasks around the home. As Janz was born in 1936, even at the end of the war she was only nine years old. The tasks she took on were difficult for such a young child, and it is easy to see why Janz felt there was not much time for fun during the war.
Also, as she was too young to join the BDM, she did not even have the opportunity for camaraderie with other girls her age. With her stories of what she had to do as a child, Janz portrays herself as a victim of the war, as she was not able to have a "fun" childhood in
Germany, even though others were forced to endure much greater hardships.
Some of the women interviewed also experienced the loss of relatives following the war because some men were sent to prisoner-of-war camps. Christa Janz grew up without her father during the war: "And then of course growing up without my father, most of the war time and then after the war he was a prisoner for quite a few years yet afterwards."343 It was due to her father's absence that Janz believed she was forced to grow up very quickly. Edith Koch's brother also served in the war, and her father was a prisoner after the war. Koch was born in 1935 in Eastern Germany, and at the time of her interview did not remember many details about her father. When asked what her father's occupation was, Koch responded with: "He was a -1 really don't know at that time. He was a prisoner. I can't remember."344 As a child that was most of the information she learned about her father, and it appears that she did not find out further information about him following the war and her immigration to Canada.
342 Christa Janz, interview by author. 343 Ibid. 344 Edith Koch, interview by author, 3 December 2006, Winnipeg, Manitoba, tape recording. Marianne Clemens was born in 1927 and grew up in Niesky and Herrnhut near
Dresden. Clemens' father was also placed in a prisoner-of-war camp after the war.
Clemens stated that her father was an early member of the Nazi Party: "because he saw the good things that would be happening."345 She also remembered that he decided to leave the party after he was sent out to stage a hunting accident for a Nazi member who was gay. According to Clemens, even though her father was blacklisted from the Nazi
Party, after the war he was sent to France as a prisoner of war. Clemens recalled:
Then after the war he was in France and as a prisoner of war they discovered, he was not smart enough to destroy everything, they discovered that he had a very low party number. He was one of the first ones, let's say in the first 200 maybe or so, very low. So they decided they had to brainwash them backwards, you know, clean him, cleanse him. And so they kept him. So then firsth e was on the blacklist, he never got a real good job in Germany during the war, and after the war he only came home in, oh two years after the war they let him go.346
Clemens believed that even though her father was no longer a member of the Party at the end of the war, having a low number was enough for him to be sent away. Clemens possibly created this myth out of her own incorrect memories, or could have been told this story by her father or stepmother. This interpretation of the events leading up to her father's internment is incorrect as prisoner-of-war internment was not related to Party membership. Rather, her father was placed in one of these camps because he was a soldier in the German army.347 Historian S.P. Mackenzie states that during the period 1939 to 1945, approximately 35 million military personnel worldwide spent time in enemy hands.348 Her incorrect interpretation of events allowed Clemens to blame the Nazis for her father's inability to get a good job in Germany, as well as for his
Marianne Clemens, interview by author. 346 Ibid 347 See S.P. MacKenzie, "The Treatment of Prisoners of War in World War II," The Journal of Modern History, Vol. 66, No. 3 (Sep., 1994): 487-520. 348 Ibid, 487.
107 imprisonment, and his "cleansing". Because of her incorrect interpretation of events, Clemens saw her father as a victim of the Nazis rather than a perpetrator.
Bombing by the Allies was a large factor in the Germans war losses. Nuremberg became the object of ever-intensifying raids from 1941 onwards. According to Gregor, in the raid of
August 29,1942, approximately 9,000 people were made homeless and a further 20,000 were forced to leave their homes due to unexploded bombs.349 Gregor also states that in July 1943 in
Hamburg there were as many people killed by bombs in one week as were killed during the entire Blitz on Britain's cities.350 As well as these events, a major bombing in Germany took place in Dresden in February of 1945.
Many of the individuals who remained in Germany experienced these bombings.
Marianne Clemens was born in 1927. Her father was employed by the city government, and they lived in Niesky, in Southeast Germany before moving to Herrnhut. During her interview
Clemens recalled:
I had to, to leave the home and then we were evacuated, and, and the bombs you know. You never knew, even if you were living like I was living in small towns, cities during the war, you never knew because they dropped bombs, sometimes just it was a mistake of the navigator or they had a bomb left which they didn't want to take home, which should have been on someplace else, and they just dropped it.351
Clemens wrote articles in The Clipper Weekly, a local newspaper published in Beausejour,
Manitoba. The series of articles described her life in Germany both during and after the Second
World War. In her article "Life after War" Clemens described the bombing experienced by the family she worked for after the war. Clemens worked as a nanny and a maid on a farm whose buildings were several times the target of stray bombs meant for nearby cities. Clemens wrote:
349 Gregor, 1056. 350 Ibid, 1051. 351 Marianne Clemens, interview by author.
108 "Every night during the last two years of the war, the couple took their kids and moved them into
the basement, where they had installed bunk beds. Their house was indeed bombed, but
everybody was safe in the basement."352 This period was a period of uncertainty and fear for
both herself and those close to her, but years later Clemens was able to write about it, and
reinforced that everyone at that location made it through the bombing safely.
Karin Manion also experienced bombing in Germany. Manion was bom in 1941 in
Berlin. During the Second World War her family was evacuated from Berlin to East Prussia. In a
story of her life dedicated to her sons, Manion described her flightfro m the Russian army in
October of 1944. Manion's descriptions of this period were quite vivid, and she also stated
during her interview that she had: "written reports about my stay in the refugee camp, they've
been publicized in the newspapers. And I have prepared a book about my life and it touches on
my war years."353 In her book entitled This is My Life, Manion wrote: "Even now, my recollections of this flight of horror are quite vivid. Russian planes were bombing and shooting
from above, other refugees like us were sinking into the ice amid screams that I will never
forget."354 As Manion was three years old at the time it is difficult to believe that she was able to
remember this period in detail. When children are presented with misinformation it may
overwrite the original information.355 Because of the fact that children's memories are more
malleable than adults, it is possible that she replaced her memories with stories she heard after the war from her family. It is important to note that both Clemens and Manion focused on topics
of their own choosing in these accounts. Both women chose to focus on stories that made
Marianne Clemens, "Life after War," The Clipper Weekly July 30, 2007. Karin Manion, interview by author. Karin Manion, This is My Life, unpublished manuscript. Templeton, 406.
109 themselves and other Germans appear to be victims, perhaps in attempt to deny responsibility for what happened in Germany.
Christa Janz also experienced bombings. Janz grew up in Wuppertal, which was in the
Ruhr area. Janz recalled:
Until I was seven I lived in Wuppertal, and then our city was bombed and we lost everything that we had, the whole city was destroyed, practically destroyed at that time, that was in May of '43, and then we moved back to my mother's home near Stuttgart.356
During her interview, Janz also stated that she wrote a book for her children and grandchildren in which she: "told them about how it was growing up, how the nights were when the bombings took place, how our house burnt, how our whole city burnt and how many people were hurt deeply."357 Janz was born in 1936 and was older than Manion during the bombings, and possibly retained more information. Despite this, her recollections also were affected by the stories she heard after the war both in Germany and Canada. As well, Janz could have blocked some of her more painful memories associated with the bombings. For Janz the bombings appeared to affect her family economically, and was also an event which inspired a lot of fear, which is evident from her statement: "there was always that fear of the bombings and of the enemies."358
Some of the other women interviewed also experienced bombing in Germany. Edith
Koch, born in 1935 in Eastern Germany, recalled that during the war there was: "bombing very close to our house."359 Elfie Blankenagel, born in 1928 in Berlin, discussed the fact that her father's blacksmith shop in Berlin was bombed, although she appeared fairly nonchalant when discussing the raids. These two women appeared less affected emotionally by the bombings at the time of their interview.
356 Christa Janz, interview by author. 357 Ibid. 358 Ibid.
110 During the end of the war women and girls in Germany also faced the prospect of rape by soldiers in the Allied forces. According to historian Atina Grossmann, one out of every three of the one and a half million women in Berlin were raped at the end of the war.360 Many of these rapes occurred in the notorious week of mass rapes from April 24 to May 5,1945 when the
Soviets secured Berlin.361 Following the week of mass rapes where women mainly were raped in their cellars, "public spaces became sites of danger as women ventured out to look for food, fuel, or water, scrounge through ruins, try to locate relatives or recuperate belongings."362 Females in the eastern provinces also faced the prospect of rape by the forces invading their territories.
Historian Michael H. Kater states that following the Reich's capitulation on May 8,1945,
German adolescent females were victimized by the Soviet conquerors in the eastern provinces where they were raped, mutilated, killed, or deported.363 In many cases these women were raped as they and their families were fleeing from the Soviet invaders. Heineman states that estimates of the number of rapes at the hands of Soviet soldiers ranges from tens of thousands to two million.364
While none of the women interviewed personally recalled being raped, many of the women experienced either flight from their home or the invasion of their home by the enemies.
As many of the women were very young in 1945 it is possible that they were not raped. It is also possible that this was a topic they felt uncomfortable discussing during their interviews. Agnes
Weber was one woman whose family experienced the attacks by the Soviets during the flight from their home. Weber was born in 1925 and grew up in Eastern Germany. She remembered
359 Edith Koch, interview by author. 360 Atina Grossmann, "A Question of Silence: The Rape of German Women by Occupation Soldiers," October, Vol. 72 Berlin 1945: War and Rape "Liberators Take Liberties" (Spring 1995): 46. 361 Ibid., 46. 362 Ibid., 58. 363 Kater, 232. 364 Heineman, "The Hour of the Woman," 364.
Ill that her father was taken away and that the rest of her family was forced to flee their farm from the advancing Soviet forces. Weber recalled her mother, siblings and herself being overtaken by the Russians while fleeingfro m their farm. She stated that "we were all pushed together, and we had no homes anymore. Everyday they would come in and rape the mothers right in front of the kids."365 According to Weber:
The Communists - they were worse than the Nazis. Because they had, they pretended there was no bad and good stuff. Sometimes they would come in and ask who was the oldest {inaudible). They would take the girl on the bed and three or four soldiers would stay outside of the door, waiting till this guy was finished and then the others ones would take a turn. We wished we would all be dead. And once they took my own sister. They made a game of it. They kept all nine of us in the little room and then they kept the door locked and kept us out. They wanted some of us to confess (inaudible). And then they set fire in front of the door. And then someone came in and they asked my mom which was the oldest one and then they raped her right in front of the whole family.366
From her story it appears that Weber was not the oldest in any of these situations and therefore was not chosen by the Soviets.367 It is also possible that Weber blocked her personal experiences from her memory. It is interesting that Weber believed that the Communists were worse than the
Nazis. While the Russian army was attacking the Germans, Weber believed it was impossible that German soldiers were capable of attacking women and children in the manner that Germans were attacked. Weber could have that opinion due not only to her own experiences, but also because of stories she heard from friends and family following the war.
Karin Manion also experienced flight from the approaching Soviets. In her book dedicated to her sons, Manion wrote that her family's goal near the end of the war was to go west
"away from the approaching Russian army."368 As Manion was only four years old in 1945 she most likely was shielded by her family from most of the terror and was able to discuss her
Agnes Weber, interview by author. Ibid According to Weber's daughter, Weber had two older sisters.
112 experiences in her interview, and to write about them. Since Manion was so young during her flight, she also could have recalled stories she heard from her family as a child and placed these
stories into her own memories when discussing this period.
Marianne Clemens did not experience flight from the Soviet forces, but she recalled working under Einsatz Bartold (Command Bartold) during the war as a young girl. Command
Bartold was an organization with headquarters located in Poland, close to the German border.369
While working under this organization Clemens helped prepare for the onslaught of the Soviet forces. Clemens wrote:
We felt like soldiers, proud that we were able to contribute and that what we were doing would be used to fight the enemy, since our ditches were supposed to keep away, or at least slow down, advancing Russian tanks. The idea was that the tanks would roll down into the ditch but wouldn't be able to climb out, since the ditches were too deep and too narrow. We never really knew for sure if our ditches worked, but at that time, we believed we were doing an important job, helping to win the war.370
While Clemens did not experience the attacks she, along with many other girls, took part in preparing for the Soviet advance. Clemens felt proud of her actions and was free to discuss this period in her articles. If Clemens was ashamed of her participation in Command Bartold she would not have written about it.
Many of the women interviewed were able to discuss their wartime losses in Germany.
The women did not attempt to avoid these topics during our interviews, although some dwelled more on a particular loss than others. Many of the women also discussed their war experiences with family and friends. The most common topic the women discussed with family and friends after immigration was the bombing in Germany. In many cases the women did not discuss the events in great detail with their families, but did mention or write down some of the situations
368 Manion, This is My Life. 369 Marianne Clemens, "Life under Command Bartold," The Clipper Weekly, April 2, 2007.
113 they went through. Each of the women were asked in their interviews: "What do you tell your
children, grandchildren, and friends about growing up in Germany?" Many of the women
answered this question with tales of their war losses. As previously stated, Karin Manion wrote memoirs that touched on her war years. During her interview Manion stated:
Oh yes, I tell them lots about the war. I tell them - about -1 have written reports about my stay in the refugee camp, they've been publicized in the newspapers. And I have prepared a book about my life and it touches on my war years and my early years growing up here in Canada. So they're quite well informed.371
Manion focused on the losses her family faced during the war and in the period following the war. In her writing as well as in her memories Manion portrayed her family as victims.
Portraying her family in this way appeared to make it easier for Manion to discuss this period of her life. Christa Janz also told her children and grandchildren about her losses in Germany.
She too focussed on war losses such as the bombings and portrayed her family as victims.
Marianne Clemens discussed with her friends in Canada the fact that "I had to, to leave the home and then we were evacuated, and, and the bombs you know."372 She discussed the bombing with friends and also wrote articles in The Clipper that described the bombing. Writing was a positive outlet for Clemens, as she stated that "when I started writing those articles, lots of people told me that they are very happy that I did that because they were always wondering, because here they had no idea you know."373 When she first arrived in Oakbank, Manitoba in
1957 Clemens experienced some contempt from her neighbors. People called her and her friend
Displaced Persons (DPs) and wanted to know why they settled in Oakbank. Clemens stated during her interview: "Because when we came in '57,1 found it always strange, it was so long after the war, but - nobody knew anything what happened in the war, but everybody thought they
370 ibid 371 Karin Manion, interview by author. 372 Marianne Clemens, interview by author.
114 knew what DPs are, Displaced Persons." Years after the war Clemens enjoyed informing
Canadians of what happened in Germany, as well as what her own experiences were.
In addition to discussing the bombings with family and friends the majority of women
discussed the bombings during our interview. For example, Irma Meyer stated in her interview
that "when we came to Germany then in 1947, of course it was still very much bombed out."375
Meyer seemed to state this strictly as a fact, as though it was an event that did not affect her
personally. In addition, Karin Manion recalled that "Germany was bombed to smithereens."376
The women could have discussed the bombing in this way because that is how they heard others
discuss it, or because by making it into a fact it was a way to avoid how the bombing personally
affected them. During their interviews the majority of women were able to discuss the
bombings, at least from a fairly general perspective. This could be due to the fact that this was
an event in which the Germans themselves were the victims, and it was not something for which
they could be blamed or viewed negatively by others. In order to avoid discussing negative
aspects of the German past, some of the women may have focused on events in which Germans
were victims.
According to Wittlinger, Moeller pointed out that in the early post-war period West
Germans dismissed charges of collective guilt by telling stories of the enormity of their own
losses.377 Historian Omer Bartov also states that the German survivors perceived themselves as
victims.378 Similarly, millions of German expellees from East Germany constituted the largest
and most visible group of war victims. The early post-war period in Germany until the 1950s
was dominated by the remembering of German victimhood. As all of the women interviewed
373 Ibid. 374 Ibid. 375 Irma Meyer, interview by author. 376 Karin Manion, interview by author.
115 immigrated to Canada from the late 1940s until 1960 they experienced this feeling of victimhood prior to immigration. In many cases the women were not able to work through those feelings before immigration.
At the time of their interview many of the women discussed situations that showed how the Germans too were victims of the Second World War. What they did or did not learn prior to immigration could have affected how they dealt with the German past. Most of the women stated in their interviews that they did not learn about many details of the Holocaust until after arrival in Canada. It is difficult to believe that the women who remained in Germany during the
1950s did not learn of these details prior to immigration. Laws stipulating restitution payments for Jewish survivors of the Holocaust were passed in the Western occupation zones of Germany in 1946 and 1947.379 Many Germans were aware of what happened to the Jews during the
Second World War, but some of them did not want to face these facts immediately following the war. According to historian Jeffrey Herf, during the period 1949 to 1959 many Germans chose to forget about the Nazi past.
While the women recalled their feelings of fear during the bombing, they did not discuss any injuries they or their family members suffered from the bombing. They also did not mention any individuals that they lost due to the bombing. The women could have chosen not to mention these situations during their interview because they were more concerned with their own losses at the time, or because these memories were too difficult to talk about. Also, it is possible that none of the women interviewed suffered any injuries during the bombing. As most were quite
Wittlinger, 63. Bartov, "Defining Enemies," 815. Herf, Divided Memory, 87.
116 young during the bombing it is also possible that the women forgot about any injuries that they or family members suffered during the bombing.
The majority of women discussed some aspects of the rapes Germans experienced during their interview. The rape of others was discussed, but personal experiences were not. This may be due to the fact that from the interviews it appears that none of the women interviewed experienced rape in Germany. The women also could have avoided discussing personal experiences because it was too difficult for them to remember and discuss during their interviews.
The women also did not have trouble discussing the loss of their fathers or relatives during their interviews. For many of the women the loss of their fathers appeared to be another reason that their lives in Germany were so difficult. Despite their willingness to discuss this topic, some of the women's memories did not correlate to what actually happened during the war. For example, Clemens incorrectly related the reason for her father's internment in a prisoner-of-war camp. This could be due to the fact that her father told her the incorrect reason for his internment. Clemens also could have blocked out some of this information, or used that reason as a way to blame her father for leaving her during that difficult period in her life.
Another reason for some of the incorrect recollections could be that the women learned information after the war and replaced that information with their previous memories. They also could have created myths about their lives in Germany based on stories they heard or information they learned after the war.
The fact that the women were able to discuss or at least refer to some experiences while they ignored others may be because of their particular experiences, as well as the women's memories of those experiences. According to Valerie Yow, the narrators may repress or
117 minimize the events they experienced. From the interviews it appears that some of the women
blocked some of the painful events from their memory entirely or repressed some parts of them.
Many of the women chose to focus on the difficult experiences of other Germans, especially when discussing the rapes of German women, rather than their own experiences. According to sociologist Pamela Sugiman, by discussing others who had it worse, some women are able to avoid their own painful pasts.381 Focusing on the experiences of others may have allowed the
women to dissociate themselves from their own experiences. By discussing other Germans who had it worse than themselves, the women were able to feel better about their own experiences in
Nazi Germany.
The Women's Views of the War as Girls
For some the surrender of the Third Reich on May 8,1945 marked a new beginning.
According to Moeller, more and more Germans saw themselves "as victims of a system run amok" by May 1945.382 By that time many individuals who supported National Socialism changed their views. The end of the war and the changes in Germany provided some of the women with "hope that it would always get better."383 It is important to remember that, despite this hope, Irma Meyer and the other women in this study chose to emigrate from Germany in the years immediately following the Second World War. This section will discuss the women's views of the Second World War while in Germany and after immigration to Canada. This section will focus on the women's memories of the period from approximately 1942 until 1948.
Many of the women interviewed recalled that while they lived in Germany learning about the war and politics was not something that they either understood or were interested in.
380 Yow, Recording Oral History, 45. 381 Sugiman, 374. Robert G. Moeller, "Germans as Victims: Thoughts on a Post-Cold War History of World War IPs Legacies," History & Memory 2005 17(1-2): 166.
118 According to historian Richard J. Evans, during the war it was reported that women took little or no interest in the war and avoided reading the political section of the newspapers.384 This could
also be one of the reasons that the women did not understand the war. Marianne Clemens was
bora in 1927 and grew up in Niesky before spending the war years in Herrnhut. During her
interview she recalled:
I was never much interested in politics. It's totally different now, that young people already, you know, but we were in that dictatorship, you didn't even have a chance to think about things, you know. No, and I personally was not much interested. I was far more interested in animals.385
Clemens blamed the fact that she lived in a dictatorship for not learning about the situation in
Germany. But by stating that she was not interested in politics while in Germany it also appears that she did not make much of an attempt to learn about the situation either.
Not understanding the war was a common theme I encountered while interviewing the women. Christa Janz was born in 1936 in Wuppertal. She stated that
in those days I didn't have the perception of why the enemies, why the war was against us, because I really didn't know too much about the whole situation. I do know this, that, that Nazism was impressed upon us very strongly in school. And I remember one incident as a little girl, I had to go and get milk. And I came home with two cans of milk, on either side. And I met the pastor of the Lutheran Church in that little town. And of course we would have to say "Heil Hitler" but I couldn't. And he made me put down my milk pail to say "Heil Hitler". And that I thought was terrible. Because I remember I was quite angry and told my mother about it and - so you know there was not really a happy thought when I thought ofNazism.386
Although Janz knew that she was supposed to support Nazism, she did not clearly understand the causes for the war. This could be because the war and Nazism was not taught in school and also parents did not want to discuss these topics with their children. Janz was only taught that she
383 Irma Meyer, interview by author. 384 Richard J. Evans, "German Women and the Triumph of Hitler," The Journal of Modern History, Vol. 48, No. 1, On Demand Supplement (March 1976): 163. 385 Marianne Clemens, interview by author.
119 had to support Hitler. From her story about putting down the milk pail it appears that she did not agree with all aspects of what she was taught. Janz thought that it was terrible that she was forced to put down her pail of milk to say "Heil Hitler". During her interview Janz did not state if she disagreed with this because she did not support Nazism or because putting down her milk pail inconvenienced her. She did recall that she was "quite angry" when she told her mother about the incident and that "there was not really a happy thought when I thought of Nazism."387
In addition, Janz's statements regarding the milk pail incident could be a mixture of her feelings from the time of the incident to the time of her interview.
According to political scientist Mark A. Wolfgram, oral histories are memory products that were generated in a specific time and location, but like all memory products they refer to the past as well as the present.388 The women's beliefs at the time of their interviews may have affected their memories. As the women's beliefs underwent changes in Canada, so did their memories of the past. According to historian Wulf Kansteiner, past events can only be recalled if they fit into the framework of present-day interests.389 When Janz answered the question
"What did you think of World War JJ while you lived in Germany?" her recollections at the time of her interview after experiencing life in Canada since 1959 were most likely different from what her answer would have been if she had been interviewed in the period 1942 to 1948.
Despite this potential difference, her answers at the time of her interview are still valid, as they demonstrate what she learned after immigration to Canada as well as her feelings at the time of the interview.
Christa Janz, interview by author. 387 Ibid. 388 Wolfgram, 202. 389 Wulf Kansteiner, "Finding Meaning in Memory: A Methodological Critique of Collective Memory Studies,' History and Theory, Vol. 41, No. 2 (May, 2002): 188.
120 Anne Boiler, bora in 1924 in Bockenheim, also did not fully understand the reasons behind the war. During her interview Boiler stated:
We did not quite understand the whole political setting that was going on, and the news that you got was just what the Germans let you know. And they told us that the Poles were so terrible, and they mistreated the Germans, and sort of tortured them, and so they had to go to Poland to just sort of stop the - that's what they told us. We did not quite want to believe it. We were questioning it, but you could not say anything to anybody. If you questioned too much they came and got you.390
Boiler was taught that the Poles were terrible, but she did not understand the reasons behind what was happening in Germany. She also remembered not believing what the Nazis were saying and that she did not want to support them. Boiler appeared terrified at what might have happened to her in Germany if she had asked too many questions. She recalled that her parents did not support Hitler, and that they taught her that she could not talk openly. Boiler stated:
They did not believe in this whole setting that Hitler's propaganda sort of put up you know and said don't, you know that we'll be the top and we'll be the top race and we will be the people that have the most - what would you call it? Abilities, to be leaders you know. And stuff like this. And my parents did not really believe that. When you are a Christian you accept everybody else of God's children. And my mom believed in that, and my dad too. That everyone had a right to live. But you could not say this to your neighbor. I told you, you could not say it to anybody. And when they sort of somehow got a {inaudible) and sent (inaudible) would tell us we can't see anybody. So when we saw the neighbor woman come around the corner, you know when you look out the window and you saw her come (inaudible), you turned off you know. Mom put the finger to her mouth and said "shhh". The walls have ears, she would say.391
While growing up Boiler learned that she was not to talk about the war or Nazism in Germany, and did not learn many details about the political situation in Germany.
Gertrude Knoll, born in Widerstreit, Poland remembered believing in what the Nazis were saying. She stated that "maybe we believed what propaganda said, you know, and most of
Anne Boiler, interview by author.
121 us did." As she was born in 1931 Knoll appeared to understand more details of the war than some of the women who were younger during the war. Knoll's father was a member of the Nazi
Party and Knoll and her siblings were members of the various Hitler Youth sections. Knoll recalled being "heartbroken" after the war, when she saw the defeated soldiers coming back.
She also stated that "I was not happy that we lost the war. Who would be you know. And things of course went wrong again, and again Germany lost half of its country you know and maybe, maybe they fought too much (laughter), too many wars and maybe they deserved it, I don't know."393 As Knoll was quite young during the war and a member of the BDM she was indoctrinated with Nazi teachings and was most likely more susceptible to propaganda. It is also important to note that in this statement Knoll referred to the Germans as "they" rather than "we".
One reason for this could be the fact that after many years in Canada, Knoll viewed herself as primarily Canadian, regardless of what she was taught as a child.
Knoll was one of the few women who was interested in what happened during the war in
Germany. The majority of the women did not take an active interest in politics. They did not seek out information about what was happening in their country. Some of the reasons that the women did not pay attention to the political scene in Germany could be because of their age at the time, as well as the number of tasks that they were forced to take on with the departure of men. Women comprised the majority of the population left behind in Nazi Germany. Those men that did remain were often the young, old, or physically ill. According to Gregor, when
Nuremberg was liberated by the American troops on April 20,1945, the city was one of the elderly and the very young, a city predominantly of women.394 The women and girls that were
Gertrude Knoll, interview by author. Ibid Gregor, 1070. left behind were busy taking care of their homes and families and dealt with evacuations and bombings.
Not surprisingly, many of the women recalled hoping the Second World War would end soon. Elfle Blankenagel, born in 1928 in Berlin, hoped the war "would finish pretty soon so I could go to my aunt again."395 During the war her family "lost everything."396 With the end of the war, Blankenagel hoped her life would go back to normal. Irma Meyer also "lost everything because of that [the war]."397 Meyer recalled during her interview that "Our whole life was changed because of World War II and this stupid idea that Hitler had."398 Born in 1936, during the war Meyer and her family were relocated to a farm in Prussia. Despite her fairly aggressive statement that Hitler's war idea was "stupid", Meyer contradicted herself during her interview during her answer to the next question. When asked "Were you in favor of National Socialism before the war or after the war?" Meyer answered:
No, I didn't know what is going on (laughter). I can't say, because I was a child. I just went with my parents, I did what - all I remember we had to leave and then we, we were in camps and often were all, you know, in a big room and had just a little corner. So I, I don't think I thought about what, because I mean this is how things were and you just took it. As a child I didn't know why this all was and the extent of it, but I mean later on you realize what had really happened.399
As Meyer stated that she did not know what was going on in Germany, it appears that her previous statement is more likely a display of her beliefs after immigration to Canada. As Meyer recalled that as a child she did not understand what was happening in Germany, it is unlikely that she thought Hitler's ideas were "stupid". Despite this, at the end of the war Meyer was roughly nine years old, and most likely also hoped that the war would end soon so that life could return to
395 Elfie Blankenagel, interview by author. 396 Ibid 397 Irma Meyer, interview by author. 398 Ibid. 399 Ibid.
123 normal. At the time of her interview it appeared that Meyer blamed Hitler for making her life
difficult during the war.
One of the few women who remembered seeing World War II in a positive light while in
Germany was Gertrude Knoll. She was born in 1931 in Widerstreit, Poland. Knoll recalled that the war:
had to come. I said that before, if the Allies would have treated them better in the First World War and if, yesterday I just had to look that up because I was wondering if you were going to ask me that question (laughter). That they were just, they were really out to destroy them completely and they just about did. What was it, $60 billion they wanted that from Germany that had been cut down for nothing, and taken pieces of it away from them. And nobody working. There was no other way but this to come and they should have seen that coming. They should have. And that, then Hitler came along and I still don't know how this happened. How so quickly he got Germany working and everybody was happy and everybody was busy and everybody was working for something - for the war. And everybody followed him like sheeps. They did. There was nothing, I think about it often because how could we not see - not so many people about the Jews - it was really true that people didn't know that they were in concentration camps. My family didn't know. Although our farm was across the river. They called it the ghetto. And they had - and it was a sugar factory originally. And they had taken the Jews out of their homes and put them in there. And I can remember as a child seeing that and feeling so sad because sanitation was terrible. I don't know if they were dying of hunger, I don't think they were dying of hunger but I think if some kind of illness would have broken out we would have known you know because we were so close too. It was a terrible life anyway. And that was nothing compared to what happened in Italy. A terrible, terrible thing that happened. But as I said, I didn't know. I don't think most people knew what was going on. The war itself, we always hoped we would win (laughter) of course. And it was pretty tough. Then they didn't and of course now when we're thinking it, probably God knew what was best because if Hitler would have won, you never know what could have happened. So, but I remember, cause we were newer but that lady that we lived with, then because we were refugees and people in Germany had to take those refugees in. We were not in camps. None of us were in camps, we lived with families and families had to make room for us and take us in. And some people talk about bad times but we had wonderful people that were very, very nice to us. But when the war was over and then Hitler committed suicide, this lady just couldn't believe it. I think she sobbed for weeks (laughter). Because, as I said they we were so desperately poor and somebody came and helped and did something and it's - and of course I was a child so I just, I don't think I gave it much thought at the time at all. But I remember Mrs. Martin, how upset she was because - through the last minutes she thought she
124 was going, they were going to win the war. The Allies were walking on our doors and she was still going to win the war (laughter).400 Knoll cited the way the war turned around the German economy as a reason why the war started.
Just before her interview she looked up statistics on the First World War. Life in Germany was difficult for her family before the war, and Knoll believed that the Second World War helped to create employment in Germany. She also blamed the Allies for the start of the war and for putting Germany in that situation in the first place. From Knoll's comments it appears that she intertwined her views in Germany and her views after her immigration to Canada, as she also stated that in the end it was a good thing that Hitler did not win the war. Knoll also used her knowledge gained in Canada to make fun of Mrs. Martin, the woman who believed that the
Germans would win the war right up until the end. Mrs. Martin appeared to be one of the people that Knoll believed followed Hitler like sheep. After living in Canada Knoll learned more information about the war, but she did not know as a young girl in Germany that the war was almost over. In her statement Knoll also refers to Germans as "them". Even though she experienced the war in Germany, after spending many decades in Canada she felt more Canadian than German.
Marianne Clemens was born in 1927 and lived in Herrnhut during the Second World
War. She also thought as a young girl that Hitler and his war would help the Germans. Clemens stated:
In the beginning I was convinced, like all the youth were, and lots of other people too, were convinced that we would win that war. That was one thing. And we were sort of brainwashed, that Hitler had already occupied the north of Czechoslovakia, so then and Austria and all the parts, and he did it all, he liberated those people to give them the good life, what we lived in Germany.
Gertrude Knoll, interview by author.
125 Well, it sounded good to us, you know. So we thought, well, help some more people. And he was dreaming of his thousand year Reich.401
Clemens recalled that "we had that good life because he built first the autobahn, that
(inaudible) and he made weapons."402 Despite these beliefs, Clemens' feelings changed as the war progressed. She recalled:
More and more countries came into the war and always in Germany I remember I looked on the globe, and I thought well, this is Germany, and all those other people, they are all fighting us, how in the heck can we think that we can win it? And we didn't. And then it was a very strange feeling. Because nobody knew towards the end, so what's happening now? You know. We didn't know anything, nobody told us anything, and we couldn't get news from the other side, from England or France unless you had a shortwave thing and secretly you were listening, because you were not allowed to. But the German government told us till the end we were still winning. When we were already, when the Russians were already knocking at our door, they still said you know we were winning.403 As a member of the BDM, Clemens was taught to support Nazism. While in the beginning
Clemens supported Hitler and the Second World War, as time progressed she stated that she realized Germany would not win. As Clemens was born in 1927 she was older during the war than a number of other women in this study. It is possible that Clemens combined what she learned after the war with her feelings during the war, but it is also possible that even during the war she was doubtful about Germany's ability to win. Despite these doubts, Clemens appeared to originally be in support of the war. As a girl in Germany she felt that Hitler improved the
German economy, and that he helped the German people.
While living in Germany many of the women viewed the war as something that they hoped would end soon so that life could get back to normal. Some women recalled that they supported the war while they lived in Germany, while the majority remembered it as a difficult period in their lives. Although none of the women directly avoided this topic, it became clear
Marianne Clemens, interview by author. that some were not comfortable disclosing all of their views and experiences. The war brought many difficulties for the women, and therefore for many of them it was not something that they recalled positively. It appears that Heineman is correct in stating that women's recollections of the war tended to focus on events that deeply affected their own lives,404 as women in this study focused on events that directly affected themselves and their families.
The Women's Views of the War after Living in Canada
This section examines how the women remembered the Second World War after living in
Canada for the past four to six decades. Similarly to their feelings about the war while they lived in Germany, the women interviewed had varying feelings about the war even after immigration.
The majority of women interviewed believed that living in Canada did not affect their feelings about the Second World War. Although the women believed their feelings in Canada were the same, there are a number of factors that could have changed the women's memories. One factor is that as soon as something is committed to memory it becomes distorted. The women's memories also could have been affected by their experiences in Canada since immigration.
Freund found three different kinds of situations that the German women were faced with in
Canada after immigration. In Canada the women had access to North American interpretations of the Third Reich, their encounters with Canadians made them aware of their Nazi past, and they frequently encountered Jews.405 In many cases the women's memories were shaped by the new information that they were presented with in Canada without the women noticing the change in their recollections.
Anne Boiler was born in 1924 in Bockenheim, Germany. She immigrated to Canada in
1953 and resided in Red Cliff, Alberta. She worked in a greenhouse, where she met her
403 ibid. 404 Heineman, "The Hour of the Woman," 362.
127 husband. Boiler believed that her view of the war did not change after immigration: "because we
knew Hitler could not win."406 Boiler also recalled that she questioned the Nazis' policies while
she lived in Germany but was too afraid to say anything. This statement contradicts her earlier
answer regarding how she saw the war while she lived in Germany when she stated that she did
not understand the political setting and that "the news that you got was just what the Germans let you know."407 Boiler could have been affected by the new information regarding the Third
Reich that she learned in Canada. After living in Canada it is possible that Boiler realized she
should have questioned the Nazis' policies and after many years in Canada remembered herself
doing so. Boiler also possibly mixed up her memories without realizing it, especially after the
passage of so many years since the Second World War.
Christa Janz was bora in Wuppertal, Germany in 1936 and immigrated to Canada in
1959. She lived in Calgary, Alberta immediately after immigration. She and her husband moved back to Germany while their children were younger, but eventually moved to Winnipeg,
Manitoba. Janz also believed that she felt the same way about the Second World War after
immigration. Unlike the other women interviewed, Janz returned to Germany to live for a few years after she first immigrated to Canada. During her interview Janz stated that she always believed the war was evil: "I always have thought that World War II was an evil thing. And it has brought a lot of heartache for many people."408 As she was one of the last women
interviewed to immigrate, and also due to her time spent in Germany after living in Canada, Janz
was affected by the mood in Germany as well as by what she learned in Canada. Her statement that she always thought World War II was evil might be a little strong, but was either how she
Freund, "Troubling Memories in Nation-building," 138. 406 Anne Boiler, interview by author. 407 Ibid. 408 Christa Janz, interview by author.
128 remembered her feelings, or how she wanted to portray her feelings in Germany during her interview.
Edith Koch was born in 1935 in East Germany. She immigrated to Canada in 1953. At the time of her interview she resided in Winnipeg, Manitoba. When asked if her views about the
Nazi Party changed when she immigrated to Canada, Koch responded "no". When asked if she ever heard bad things about the Nazi Party, Koch also responded "no". Koch did not expand on her answers to these questions during her interview. Throughout her interview she responded with very short answers. She appeared worried about saying too much, which may be one reason why she wished to be known by a pseudonym in this study. Although Koch stated that she had never heard anything bad about the Nazi Party, she did know about the concentration camps.
When asked when she learned about the concentration camps Koch answered:
It was in Canada, I've never heard it before. I heard about people - our neighbors. They were the good ones. They told us when to go so the Russians wouldn't get us. But we never heard anything bad about him.409
Despite learning about the camps after arrival in Canada, Koch maintained that she had never heard anything bad about the Nazis or "him". It appears that she refers to Hitler when she uses
"him". This is an interesting statement, as it is likely that Koch had heard negative remarks in
Canada about both the Nazis and Hitler. Conversely from Boiler and Janz, while living in
Germany Koch believed that Hitler and the war were "good for poor people."410 At the time of her interview it was apparent that she still held those views and did not wish to acknowledge the negative side of National Socialism. As she was bom in 1935, Koch was very young during the
Second World War and was more impressionable. It appeared that at the time of her interview she still believed what she was taught in Germany, even decades after living in Canada.
409 Edith Koch, interview by author. 4,0 Ibid.
129 Marianne Clemens was born in 1927 and lived in Niesky and Herrnhut during the war.
She immigrated to Canada in 1957. After the war she worked in Holland before immigrating to
Toronto, Ontario. She stated that she disliked Toronto and moved to Regina, Saskatchewan.
After a few years she decided to move to Winnipeg, Manitoba and eventually relocated to
Oakbank, Manitoba. Clemens also believed that her view of the war had not changed after immigration. Despite this response, unlike some of the other women interviewed, Clemens thought a great deal about the war after she immigrated to Canada. During our interview she stated that she "went through all the things and I worked it out with myself."411 Clemens wrote numerous articles that were published in The Clipper Weekly, from which she was compiling a book of her experiences at the time of her interview. She received positive feedback on these articles from other people that went through some of the same situations. During her interview
Clemens stated that
when I started writing those articles, lots of people told me that they are very happy that I did that because they were always wondering, because here they had no idea you know. If they didn't have a family member fighting in the war, that's still not the same, because lots of them are here, they never talked about it, you know. They didn't tell. So they were living here their life as if nothing, nothing happened out there you know, some thousand miles away. And even here what I heard afterwards, they hated the Japanese and they put them in camps and so {inaudible) they did all sorts of things. It was a very strange time. But people tell me that they were happy, you know, because they always said, yeah, my dad, my mom, they came from there, and they told me a little bit but you know, the younger people, that they want to know more. And yeah, that was a strange time. Because everybody thought always, well like I said, we were convinced we would win the war, we didn't know that the rest of the world would come down on us. And, especially after that came out with the concentration camp and the hate was so much, that it was pretty clear actually that we would lose the war. But, in the beginning, we thought, but then towards, after the third, fourth year, how long was it, till '45, six years, yeah. In the fourth, fifth year, everybody said, well, I don't know, maybe if we lose - but then everything is over anyway. That was an expression that I heard so often... it was amazing how fast Germany came out, came out on top you know. But then after I heard all what happened, and
411 Marianne Clemens, interview by author. (inaudible) and I didn't want anything to do with it anymore.
While in Canada Clemens learned further details regarding what happened in Germany during the Nazi period. Although she believed her feelings did not change, it is clear from her response that what she learned changed her view of the war and the Nazis. While in Germany Clemens was a member of the BDM, and was also a group leader. During the war she felt that what she was doing as a BDM member, including recycling, was positive. When she found out about the concentration camps, and exactly what happened she: "didn't want anything to do with it anymore."413 Despite this statement, Clemens still wrote about her experiences to share with others in Canada. She was especially proud of the fact that her articles touched others who had similar experiences in Germany and had not been able to discuss that period earlier.
Irma Meyer was born in 1936 in Romania. Meyer immigrated to Canada in 1960 and lived in Medicine Hat, Alberta. She believed that her view of the Second World War changed after living in Canada. During her interview, Meyer recalled that "in the '60s when we were here, well a lot came out about Hitler which we didn't know."414 While in Germany she was quite young, and stated that there she did not know what was going on. Despite this, she also stated that when she was in Germany she thought that Hitler's ideas were stupid. Meyer was the last woman interviewed to immigrate to Canada. After learning new information in Canada
Meyer became more critical of the media. She was also upset with the way the media in North
America portrayed Germans after the Second World War. Meyer stated that
especially in the '60s they portrayed the Germans as being so dumb. Because I mean they had lost two wars it's true. But I don't know if that was because the Germans are so dumb. I still remember a film, Hogan 's Heroes, I don't think it exists anymore, but it was always a war film and the Germans were so terribly stupid, so no wonder they - so I think I'm much more, how should I say? Open to
412 Ibid. 413 Ibid. 414 Irma Meyer, interview by author. see the good of both sides and not trust propaganda so easily. Because even now when I compare the news that we hear here and then if I go to Europe and my relatives tell me how they - for instance the war in Iraq you know, or the war before, when this President Bush's dad was a president and the way that war was, is viewed in Europe and we see it is totally different. You don't know what to make of it. So I'm kind of, I think cautious of how the news tells us things. Because it seems we don't hear the whole truth.415
Meyer was angry that the media portrayed all Germans as stupid because they followed Hitler, and lost two world wars. She also stated that after moving to Canada she found out a lot more about Hitler and the Nazis that she did not know. One reason for Meyer's anger is because she felt disillusioned and betrayed after learning about the further details about the Nazis and the
Holocaust. According to Kater, the majority of young people claimed to have been victims after being cheated out of youth by being seduced by the Nazi regime and later thrown away.416
Although Meyer was too young to be a member of the BDM her brother was a member of the
Hitler Youth, and it appeared that Meyer envied his involvement. Meyer later may have felt embarrassed for being tricked by the Nazis after learning new information in Canada. She learned that the media did not always tell the truth and was more cautious of being tricked by propaganda.
Gertrude Knoll was bora in 1931 in Widerstreit, Poland and immigrated to Canada in
1948 to Churchbridge, Saskatchewan. After living in Canada, Knoll thought that "it was best that we lost the war. I think that especially with Hitler at the helm we never know what would have happened."417 Knoll also had issues with the way German people were portrayed in North
America after the Second World War. She stated:
German people are good people {laughter). They're not Nazis {laughter). You know I'm still very touchy with that word. You know whenever they call our soldiers Nazis. They were just fighting for their country like every soldier does.
415 ibid. 416 Kater, 249. 417 Gertrude Knoll, interview by author. And it's really - there are things in Canada that are still bothering me too because it's so many year since the war was over. There's still hard feelings and everybody does bad things during the war. It shouldn't happen but it happens. I don't know (laughter).
Although Knoll stated that she was glad the Germans lost the war, she also still defended
Germans for taking part in the war as soldiers. Knoll thought Germany would win the war while
she lived in Germany, but after living in Canada she recognized that it was a good thing that
Germany lost. She saw soldiers as victims of the Nazi regime, who fought for their country as
any soldier would.
The women interviewed had a variety of views regarding the Second World War after
immigration to Canada. While many believed that their views were not affected by their time in
Canada, the information learned both after the war and after immigration as well as their
experiences in Canada affected their views. Although this section examines the women's views
of the war after living in Canada, the views that the women described were the views they held at the time of their interviews. By the time of their interviews, most of the women's memories
underwent changes due to new information learned. Although most of the women changed their
feelings about the war and the Nazis after they learned new information some, including Edith
Koch, appeared to be unaffected. The fact that the majority of women could discuss the revision
of their feelings and the reasons why demonstrates that they thought about the war after living in
Canada. Their changing feelings show that they were able to use the new information learned
and compare it to their memories. While in Canada the war was one aspect of Nazi Germany
which they could not ignore. One reason for this was the Remembrance Day ceremonies held in
Canada, which are discussed in the next section of this chapter.
418 ibid.
133 Remembrance Day Ceremonies in Canada
Whether or not the women attended Remembrance Day ceremonies in Canada is an indication of if they were comfortable confronting the Second World War, but also an indication of how they saw the ceremonies themselves. If the women wanted to avoid their pasts in
Germany they also would have avoided attending ceremonies dedicated to remembering the war.
As well, it is important to learn how they felt about the ceremonies. Did they see them as a commemoration of the two world wars for both sides, or as commemoration of the Allied victory? If the women saw them as a commemoration for both sides they would have been more likely to attend. If the women saw the ceremonies as a commemoration for the Allies they would have felt as though they had no right to attend.
Some of the women did not remember exactly when or even if they attended the ceremonies in Canada. Anne Boiler, who immigrated to Canada in 1953 and resided in Red
Cliff, Alberta appeared to be confused as to whether or not she physically attended the ceremonies. When asked if she attended Remembrance Day Ceremonies in Canada, Boiler stated that she attended the ceremonies: "at some times but not too much, when we had the t.v., we watched it usually on t.v."419 Boiler clearly recalled that she and her husband watched them on t.v. but did not recall attending them in person. It is my opinion that watching the ceremonies and attending them in person are two completely different things. When attending the ceremonies in person the women would have been confronted with Canadians commemorating the war, but also veterans who served in the war. Some of the veterans at those ceremonies potentially played a role in the defeat of Germany in the Second World War. As well, women who attended ceremonies took a more active role rather than those that watched them on t.v.
Anne Boiler, interview by author.
134 Boiler may not have recognized the distinction between watching and attending, especially if she had never attended the ceremonies in person.
A number of the women stated that they attended the ceremonies in Canada. Elfie
Blankenagel immigrated to Canada in 1954. Blankenagel lived in Ottawa, Ontario before moving to Saskatoon, Saskatchewan with her husband. She stated that she attended
Remembrance Day ceremonies in Canada, but did not elaborate on which ones she attended or the reasons behind her attendance. Marianne Clemens immigrated to Canada in 1957. She lived in a few provinces before finally settling in Oakbank, Manitoba. Clemens attended ceremonies in Oakbank's Baptist Church. In Germany Clemens' family belonged to the Herrnhuter
Brudergemeine, a church of Protestant denomination. As Clemens immigrated to a small rural community her church selection was limited, which may be the reason behind her attending ceremonies at the Baptist Church. As well, she may have not been a member of the church but attended the ceremonies there because that was where they were held in the small town.
Clemens described the ceremony as "a very beautiful thing"420 but did not elaborate on how she felt about the ceremonies themselves.
From the interviews it is difficult to determine the motivations for the women's attendance. The women may have attended because their friends or neighbors did, or in the case of Clemens because the ceremony was an important event in her small community. None of the women appeared to believe their attendance was significant, even though confronting the events discussed in the ceremonies could have been very difficult for the women to listen to and commemorate.
Gertrude Knoll immigrated to Canada in 1948 to Churchbridge, Saskatchewan. She did not attend Remembrance Day ceremonies. During her interview Knoll stated:
135 I should - it's not - it has nothing to do, I don't know. It's just something that I don't go to, and my husband doesn't either. Maybe if he could have thought we should go, but maybe I should have thought more than he just because I went through a war and saw what can happen you know. Maybe I should have thought more of, I don't know.421 Knoll met her husband in Saskatchewan and repeated during her interview that he was a
Canadian. Knoll used his lack of attendance as an excuse for her own. It appears that
Knoll felt uncomfortable attending alone, and as her husband did not suggest they attend she did not either. At the time of her interview it appeared that she felt guilty for not attending because she was personally affected by the war in Germany while her husband was not, which excused his lack of attendance at the ceremonies.
Other women interviewed either did not attend Remembrance Day ceremonies or had a problem with the fact that the ceremonies occurred. Irma Meyer, who immigrated to Canada in
1960 to Medicine Hat, Alberta had problems with the ceremonies. Meyer stated that
I sometimes look at it on t.v. but I don't think that I've ever attended one since I'm in Canada. Because to me it's not an issue of being heroes or not heroes or remember all the wars that I had to go through was bad. And so why, why and then of course we don't remember the Germans. But I mean my dad, how should I say? Put his life on the line just like anybody, except he was on the wrong side. So I, I don't go. No. (laughter)422
When asked if she felt that Remembrance Day ceremonies in Canada were just for the Canadian soldiers, Meyer responded:
That's how I feel, yeah. Anyway the other side, they probably were British and Americans and all those. But I feel, you know, the commoner way of it, the little Joe you know who goes to war, it doesn't matter which side he's on, he has to fight, right? So why then later on have, anyway I don't know what to think of the whole thing. But I remember when we were still in Germany we did the same thing for that side. We had to, in my high school I remember we had to make wreaths and then we had to go to the cemetery where the soldiers were and put them on the graves, so it's just as bad. But I, I really don't know how to feel
Marianne Clemens, interview by author. Gertrude Knoll, interview by author. Irma Meyer, interview by author.
136 about this, but I don't want to think much about it {laughter). Sorry {laughter).
Meyer believed that Germans were not commemorated at these ceremonies because they fought on the wrong side. Although she was forced to attend ceremonies as a girl in Germany, she did not know what to make of them after living in Canada. For Meyer it appears that her attendance meant that she supported the Allied victory over Germany, and due to this belief she did not attend the ceremonies.
Christa Janz immigrated to Canada in 1959 and lived in Calgary, Alberta immediately after immigration. She and her husband then moved back to Germany for a few years while their children were younger before settling in Winnipeg, Manitoba. Janz attended Remembrance Day ceremonies in Canada but stated that "I have a hard time wearing a poppy. And I think the reason, I guess in my heart I feel a little disloyal to my dad."424 Janz believed that Remembrance
Day ceremonies in Canada were for "the Canadian soldiers."425 As her father was a German soldier, she believed celebrating Remembrance Day was disloyal to him. It certainly would have been difficult for the women who immigrated to attend ceremonies in Canada when they felt that they were the "losers" at a celebration for the "winners". Some of the women did not agree with their feeling that the losing side should not receive recognition in Canada, as the German soldiers also put their lives on the line for their country. For the women with this belief, during the
Remembrance Day ceremonies they felt like outsiders rather than like true members of Canadian society.
While most of women interviewed stated that they either attended Remembrance Day ceremonies after immigration to Canada or did not, a number of women also stated that they did
Christa Janz, interview by author.
137 not attend but felt that they should. For those who attended ceremonies in Canada, the decision appeared to not be a big deal to them. Rather, in many cases it appeared that they thought of it as just another social event. For many of the women who did not attend, the reasons for their lack of attendance was due to a reluctance to celebrate the loss of German soldiers. For many of the women, even after living in Canada for so many years and feeling mainly Canadian, many of them still related with Germany's loss and felt awkward celebrating a Canadian victory over their home country. When discussing the Remembrance Day ceremonies in Canada many of the women appeared to relate more as a German, while during other parts of their interviews they stated they felt more Canadian than German.
Conclusion
The period 1942 to 1948 was a demoralizing and difficult one for Germans. The women interviewed in this study dealt with this period in a variety of ways. The interviews demonstrate that the majority of the women were able to look back at the Second World War after immigrating to Canada. Few of the women in this study made any efforts during their interviews to avoid the topic of the Second World War. Some women focused on topics such as bombing and war loss, while some of the women did not discuss difficult memories in much detail. Some of the women were able to be more open than others. For a number of women, the events such as bombing, war loss, and rape, although mentioned, were not discussed in detail. This could be due to memory loss, but could also be because the women were not as comfortable either thinking about or discussing these topics.
While some women, including Marianne Clemens, felt free to discuss numerous events in
Germany including the bombing and evacuation, other women, including Elfie Blankenagel, chose to focus on how she hoped that the war would end soon. Karin Manion was fairly open in
138 her interview about her German past, and told her children about the war. As Manion was very young at the time of the war she may have remembered those experiences more through the stories of her family members than from her own memories. This possibly made it easier for her to discuss the past. Marianne Clemens stated that she had some memories that were not very good, but despite those memories Clemens believed it was important to share her stories, and wrote articles on the subject for her local newspaper.
One woman interviewed who did not like to recall the war was Elfie Blankenagel.
During her interview she stated that "I don't like to remember those war times."426 While she did not completely avoid the topic of the war during our interviews, Blankenagel did not discuss her experiences or feelings about the war in any great detail. Rather, she gave general statements, such as: "there were lots of things I wanted to do after the war, but you know everything was different. We lost everything and the Russians came and I don't like to talk about it, it was a bad time."427 For Blankenagel it was too difficult to discuss that period, even decades later.
Each of the women had different experiences and therefore different memories to share with their friends and families in Canada. As well, each had different memories to share with me during our interview. The events that the women experienced in Germany affected the women and also affected what they chose to disclose or not disclose many years later. For the majority of women discussing their lives in Germany was not difficult, but some avoided discussing situations that brought back painful memories.
During the interviews it became apparent that many of the women did not understand
National Socialism itself or the reasons behind the war while they were in Germany. Some of
426 Elfie Blankenagel, interview by author. 427 Ibid.
139 the women learned about the situation only after they moved to Canada. This new knowledge
changed some of the women's previous feelings about National Socialism and the Second World
War.
While many of the women attended the Remembrance Day ceremonies, some of the
women had problems with even the idea of the ceremonies. Some felt that the ceremonies were
a commemoration of the Allied victory against the Germans. Some of the women felt that the
German soldiers were only doing what any soldier would do, and were fighting for their country.
The fact that the women focused on events such as bombing and evacuation in their interviews is
an indication that they preferred to see themselves and other Germans as victims.
Overall it appears that the majority of women did not use immigration to Canada as a
way to avoid discussing the Second World War. Although many of the women found it difficult to discuss these topics immediately following immigration, as more years passed the women became more candid. What the women did choose to focus on when discussing this period, were
stories that showed how Germans were victims. As in the case of Marianne Clemens, she wrote
articles to share her experiences with fellow Germans as well as to teach Canadians about her experiences, while other women such as Karin Manion and Gertrude Knoll put together stories for their families. One indication that the women dealt with their German past in relation to the period 1942 to 1948 is the fact that some of them researched what happened in Germany during that period after their immigration to Canada. As well, the fact that the women chose to
participate in this study in the first place is an indication that they were able to face their pasts.
According to Sugiman, the women in studies such as this reject the silence simply by participating.428 Although some women were not able to face some of their painful memories, it
appears that immigration to Canada did not allow the women to leave their pasts totally behind
140 them, although immigration did not provide the women with an opportunity to discuss their experiences. Living amongst Canadians allowed the German immigrants to avoid discussing their past experiences. For many, it was something that was not discussed. Not until many years after immigration did the women feel more comfortable discussing the Second World War and their experiences in Germany, but the experiences that they felt most comfortable discussing were those that portrayed Germans as victims.
See Sugiman.
141 Chapter Five
Conclusion
German nationals had been declared enemy aliens on September 14,1939 and this prohibition was renewed in 1946. Despite this, in 1947 Canadian immigration policy began to
change as fears that the prewar depression would continue proved unfounded.429 By September
of 1950, the entry of German nationals was expressly desired by the Canadian government.430
Canada's changing immigration policies allowed the German women in this study to enter
Canada. The women in this study immigrated between 1947 and 1960, at a time when Germany was still recovering from the destruction of the Second World War, before the new phase of
coming to terms with the past "Vergangenheitsbewdltigung" began.
When many of the women immigrated to Canada Germany had not begun the process of coming to terms with the past. In the 1950s most West Germans were unwilling to accept any responsibility for National Socialism and instead identified themselves as victims of National
Socialism, bombs, and the Red Army.431 Upon arrival to Canada the women were busy adapting to Canadian life by learning the language, finding employment, and trying to fit in to Canadian
society and may have used those activities to avoid dealing with their pasts. In this study I
determined that living in Canada provided the women with a way to avoid dealing with the past
following immigration. Although living in Canada provided the women with new information about the Second World War and National Socialism, it did not largely change how the women felt about National Socialism. Some of the women's feelings regarding National Socialism
429Bassler, "Canadian Postwar Immigration Policy," 183-185. 430 Ibid, 194. 431 Moeller, "What Has 'Coming to Terms With the Past' Meant," 226. changed to some extent in Canada due to the new information they learned after the war, but
Canadian society itself did not appear to impact the women's beliefs.
Although some German immigrant women did encounter Jews in Canadian society, none
of the women interviewed for this study were employed by Jews as domestics. Rather, some of the women in this study were actually in a position of power over Jews, such as Irma Meyer whose secretary was Jewish. As well, Canada was physically untouched by the war. The
women did not face the rebuilding and memorializing that those in Germany faced and were not physically confronted with the aftermath of the war.
In Chapter Two I demonstrated that although the women in this study did not avoid discussing the BDM, even after living in Canada they were not aware of the purpose behind the
group. Many of the women interviewed focused on the positive aspects of the group. In fact, many of the women associated their time in the BDM as fun, and some even compared it to a
Girl Scout type of group. One of the reasons why the women were able to discuss this period could be due to the fact that they did not believe the BDM contributed towards Hitler's policies.
During this section of their interview many of the women brought up the fact that they did not know what happened to the Jews during this period, even though they were not asked anything about the Jews when questioned on the BDM. The fact that the women felt compelled to emphasize that they did not know about the Holocaust while discussing the BDM is an indication that they did not deal with their pasts as members of families and communities that were, at least to some extent, implicated in the Holocaust. By denying that they knew about the Holocaust was a way for them to deny that they, or their families, were responsible for what happened. Instead, by comparing the BDM to a Girl Scout type of youth organization the women were able to
discuss their childhood without associating their involvement in the group to National Socialism.
143 In Chapter Three I discussed the women's views of "the other". I showed that even after their adaptation to Canadian society, some of the women still had problems with "the other", which included Jews and immigrants of other nationalities. After immigration the German women in this study encountered Jews as well as immigrants of other cultures in Canada.
As immigrants themselves once, these women stated that they did not view either Jews or other immigrants in Canada with contempt. Rather, they believed that everybody had a right to live in
Canada. Some of the women displayed a philosemitic view of Jews and emphasized that they had not had any anti-Semitic feelings. The women stated that they honoured the Jews, or viewed them the same way they did everyone else. During the interviews when discussing anti-
Semitism it appeared that the women were telling me what they thought I wanted to hear.
Despite their portrayal of a philosemitic attitude, some of the women still believed some of the stereotypes that they were taught as children in Germany. While not becoming close to Jews, either through simple proximity or avoidance, none of the women examined their feelings of guilt. Their pasts are one factor that prevented them from forming close relationships with Jews in Canada. During their interviews the women attempted to portray an open-minded attitude, about Jews both in Nazi Germany and in Canada as well as multiculturalism. Despite this displayed open-mindedness, many of the women still held the belief that those living in Canada should become assimilated into a true "Canadian" and leave aspects of themselves that made them an "other" behind.
In Chapter Four I demonstrated that the women reflected on the Second World War even decades after immigration in Canada. Rather than avoiding their pasts after immigration, some of the women wrote stories or articles regarding their war experiences in Germany. In many of these written accounts the women made themselves appear to be victims by focusing on their
144 war losses. During my interviews I found that many of the women did not discuss these topics
immediately following immigration, but as time went on the women became more candid.
Although the women in this study lived in different areas of Germany and ranged in age from four to 21 years old at the end of the war, the women underwent a number of similar
experiences in Germany. As decades passed some of the women decided to revisit these
experiences. Marianne Clemens published articles in her local newspaper about her time in
Germany during the Second World War, while Karin Manion and Christa Janz wrote their stories
down for their families. The women in this study also did not avoid my questions during their
interviews. While some appeared to gloss over the less positive memories, none openly refused to answer my questions. Elfie Blankenagel answered some of my questions, but in some cases
she went off topic and focused on her own experiences after the war, especially on her
immigration to Canada and her life in Canada. Despite some avoidance, just by taking part in
this study shows that the women dealt with some aspects of their German pasts, or were at least
in the process of dealing with their actions in Nazi Germany at the time of their interviews.
When I interviewed the women over the phone and in person it appeared that they
accepted me. Despite this seeming acceptance, I still had an impact on what they told me. As a
Canadian woman whose ancestors immigrated to Canada from Galicia in the early 1900s, I did
not have a lot in common with the women in this study, other than my gender. An interviewer is
in a position of power, and has an effect on what the narrator reveals during their interview.432
Despite this potential to influence what the women said during their interview, as the women's
answers were based on their personal experiences and the memories of those events, the
interviewer would have only a minimal effect. The women possibly answered some questions
Freund, "Identity in Immigration," 109.
145 more reticently because of my nationality, but also may have spoken more freely about issues such as rape due to my gender.
Another issue when analyzing the women's responses is the issue of memory. As memories change with time, the women's memories of their views and experiences in Germany would have been much different at the time of their interview than they if they were interviewed immediately following the Second World War. Some of the women may have created myths regarding what happened and replaced their original memories with incorrect ones. Through the use of myths, the women can recreate their experiences in a light that is more favorable to them.433 Agnes Weber recalled taking part in the BDM, and that she marched and took part in
song singing. After immigration to Canada, Weber recalled that she had to denounce that she was a Nazi.434 Even at the time of her interview, Weber believed that she had been a Nazi, and during her interview focused on the fun that she experienced as a member of the BDM. Neither
Weber or any of the other women interviewed discussed negative experiences in the BDM, including the hardening exercises that took place. The women could have repressed some of their more painful memories, or minimized their memories of those events.435 Many of the women in this study focused on more positive events. When discussing painful events, especially regarding the rape of German women and girls, the women focused on the experiences of others. This could be because, when focusing on the pain of others, the women could avoid their own memories of painful experiences.436
Although the women in this study immigrated to different areas of Canada, after immigration the women encountered similar situations, such as their encounters with Canadians,
433Alexander Freund and Laura Quilici, "Exploring Myths in Women's Narrative: Italian and German Immigrant Women in Vancouver, 1947-1961," The Oral History Review, Vol. 23, No. 2. (Winter 1996). 32. 434 Agnes Weber, interview by author. 435 See Yow, Recording Oral History.
146 Jewish-Canadians, and those of other ethnic origin. As each of these women had different experiences in Canada, they also dealt with their experiences in Germany in different ways.
Some of the women mythicized their experiences in Germany, while others focused on the positive events. Others emphasized the suffering of others in order to downplay their own
suffering. Others wrote about their pasts, either in articles or in stories for their family.
Living in Canada affected how the women dealt with their past in Germany. If the women had remained in Germany, they would have undergone this process in a much different manner. They would not have been confronted with multiculturalism, or encounters with Jews in
Canadian society. Although in many ways living in Canada allowed the women to avoid part of their pasts in Germany, by the time of their interviews, most of the women had made at least some effort to deal with their pasts, in the sense of acknowledging that even as children they were part of families and communities that were implicated in the crimes of National Socialism.
Some still retained the information they learned in Nazi Germany and appeared to believe some of the propaganda, but others made efforts to acquire new information in Canada and this new
information changed their views. While the women made some progress in the last 60 years, they still did not fully deal with their pasts after immigration to Canada, but took some positive
steps in that direction.
Sugiman, 374.
147 Appendix
Biographies of the Women Interviewed
Elfie Blankenagel Elfie Blankenagel was born on June 1,1928 in Berlin. Blankenagel was the oldest of nine children. Her father owned his own business, a blacksmith shop and iron work. During the war his shop was bombed out. Her father was a member of the Nazi Party until 1935. Blankenagel was brought up by her wealthy aunt who married a Jew. As a child Blankenagel attended a Lutheran Church. In 1954 she immigrated to Canada. She originally lived in Ottawa, where she met her husband while taking English classes. Her husband was also from Germany, and wanted to return there after marriage, but Blankenagel convinced him to stay in Canada. A few years after they married the couple moved to Saskatoon, Saskatchewan. They had two children.
Anne Boiler Anne Boiler was bom in 1924 in Bockenheim, Germany. She lived in Worms, located on the Rhine River, while growing up. Her family was poor when she was growing up. Her mother was a Protestant and her father was a Catholic. Boiler was one of seven children. Her father was a postal worker and Boiler also worked in the postal service in Germany. In 1953 Boiler immigrated to Red Cliff, Alberta. After immigration she worked in a greenhouse, where she met her husband, an immigrant from Switzerland. The couple had four children.
Marianne Clemens Marianne Clemens was born on February 12,1927 in a small village in Eastern Germany. Her father was a farmer, but then became employed by the Niesky city government and the family relocated to Niesky. Her mother was a housewife. Clemens had two sisters and a brother. Her family later relocated to Herrnhut in Saxony. There the family joined a church, the Herrnhuter Briidergemeine. The school Clemens attended was run by the church. After the war Clemens worked as a secretary at a company in Holland. Clemens immigrated to Canada in 1957. She first lived in Toronto, but did not like it. She then moved to Regina, then Winnipeg, and eventually to Oakbank, Manitoba where she and a friend opened a country coffee shop. At first she did not feel comfortable as a newcomer to the community. Clemens wrote articles describing her life in Germany during the Second World War that were published in a local newspaper, The Clipper. Clemens did not marry and had no children.
Christa Janz Christa Janz was born on February 17,1936 in Wuppertal, Germany. In 1943 her family moved to Stuttgart. Her father was a mechanic and her mother was a housewife. Janz had two younger brothers. She attended elementary school until Grade Nine and then was an apprentice in an office while attending business school. Her family attended a Lutheran Church in Germany. Janz's father fought in the war, and was a prisoner of war after the war ended. Janz immigrated to Canada in 1959 to work as a secretary for Janz Team Ministries. She lived in Calgary after immigration. She returned to Germany for a year, then went back to Canada and married her husband. After marriage the couple lived in the Peace River area of Alberta. Five years later the couple moved to Germany to do work for the mission. The couple later settled in Winnipeg, Manitoba.
148 Gertrude Knoll Gertrude Knoll was born on February 6,1931 in Widerstreit, Poland. Her father was a farmer and her mother was a housewife. Her father was a member of the Nazi Party. Knoll was the oldest of four siblings. Knoll's family attended a Lutheran church. Her grandparents lived just around the corner while she was growing up, and her mother and father always had workers to help on the farm and with the house. Knoll went to school until Grade Eight and then had to work to support her family. Knoll immigrated to Canada in 1948 and lived in Churchbridge, Saskatchewan. Shortly after she arrived in Canada she worked on a farm. She later got a job at a hospital in Yorkton, Saskatchewan. While she lived in Yorkton she met her husband. The couple had three daughters.
Edith Koch Edith Koch (pseudonym) was born in 1935 in Eastern Germany. Koch could not remember her father's occupation, however she recalled that he was a prisoner after the war. She had two sisters and a brother. Her brother fought in the war. Koch's sister was a member of the BDM, but she herself was too young. Koch immigrated to Canada in 1953.
Karin Manion Karin Manion was born in Berlin in 1941. Her family was from East Prussia. Her father was a tool and die maker and her mother was a store manager. During the Second World War Manion and her family were evacuated from Berlin to East Prussia. Manion had one younger brother, who was born in 1945. After the war her family stayed in a refugee camp in Denmark for two and a half years before being sent to Germany. In 1953 her father decided to move to Canada, and the rest of the family joined him in 1954 in Trenton, Ontario. Manion completed high school in Canada and then became a bookkeeper at a law firm. In Canada she married a man who was of German descent, but also was a third or fourth generation Canadian
Irma Meyer Irma Meyer (pseudonym) was born on August 13,1936 in Romania. Her father was a farmer and her mother was a housewife. Her family attended Lutheran church. Meyer had two older brothers and one younger sister. When Meyer was four years old her family lived in the Province of Bessarabia. They were sent to Germany for a few months, then Lodz, and eventually resettled on a farm in Poland. Meyer recalled being beat up on her way to and from school by the Polish children, because her family took over a Polish farm. She recalled that the day her father joined the army was a very sad day. In 1947 she relocated to Germany from Denmark. In 1960 Meyer immigrated to Medicine Hat, Alberta. She worked at a bank before going back to school to get her degree. After teaching for a few years she went back to school to get her Masters, and eventually her Ph.D. Meyer met her husband at church in Canada. Her husband was also from Romania.
Elizabeth Redekopp Elizabeth Redekopp was born on February 16,1927 in Osterwick. Redekopp's family was Mennonite. Her father was a farmer and her mother was a housewife. Redekopp was one of 13 children. In 1941 the Germans took over the village, and the family was forced to emigrate. They stayed in camps for the rest of the war. After the war her family was placed in the English
149 zone in Germany. Russia wanted Mennonites back, but the family worked on a farm until they immigrated to Canada in December of 1947. After immigration she lived near Gretna and Rosenort before moving to Winnipeg to find a job. Redekopp met her husband in Winnipeg. The couple had seven children.
Agnes Weber Agnes Weber (pseudonym) was born in 1925 in Eastern Germany. Her family lived on a farm. Weber was a member of the BDM and stated that she enjoyed her time in the group and remembered singing and marching. She had eight siblings. One of her brothers fought in the war and was wounded twice. During the war her family was forced to flee, and they went to Hamburg. Weber immigrated to Canada in 1954. By that time she already had two children. She decided to emigrate because finding work in Germany was difficult.
150 List of Interview Questions 1. What is your name? 2. When were you born? 3. Where were you bora? 4. What was your father's name? 5. Where was he born? 6. What was his occupation? 7. What was your mother's name? 8. Where was she born? 9. What was her occupation? 10. Were either of your parents members of the Nazi organization? 11. Where in Germany did you live while growing up? 12. What was your parent's political involvement? 13. How many siblings do you have? 14. What education did you obtain? 15. What are some of your childhood memories: (special remembrances such as a Christmas day, a family vacation, Sundays, birthdays, favorite books, radio programs, church experience) 16. Did you attend church as a child? If so, what church? 17. What were your chores as an adolescent? 18. What were your favorite social events as an adolescent? 19. Were you involved with the Hitler Youth? 20. What was your perception of Jewish people while you lived in Germany? 21. Were you friends with any Jewish people in Germany? 22. What was it like growing up in Germany? 23. What did you think of World War JJ while you lived in Germany? 24. Are you married? 25. Where did you meet your husband? 26. Do you have any children? (names, date of birth, location of birth) 27. Did you work in Germany? 28. Did employment benefits for women differ from those offered to men? 29. What changes did the war bring for you? 30. Were you involved in the Nazi party? 31. Was your husband involved in the Nazi Party? 32. Were you in favor of National Socialism before the war? After the war? 33. Did your views on the Nazis change during the war? 34. When did you immigrate to Canada? 35. Where did you live after you arrived in Canada? 36. Did you work after you arrived in Canada? 37. How did you feel about your Canadian neighbours? Did you socialize with them? 38. What was your perception of Jewish people after your arrival in Canada? 39. Are you or have you been friends with any Jewish people in Canada? 40. What do you think about multiculturalism? 41. Do you see yourself as Canadian? 42. Do you attend Remembrance Day ceremonies? 43. Has your view of World War II changed after living in Canada? 44. What do you tell your children/grandchildren about growing up in Germany?
151 Release Form for Independent Scholarly Research
Interviewer: Crystal Leochko 302-512 Gagnon St. Winnipeg, MB R3B 2K4 (204) 990-4830 c [email protected]
Narrator:
Date:
Project Description: An examination of how women that lived in Germany during the Second World War but immigrated to Canada later viewed the Nazi Party.
Reason for the Study: This thesis explores how views regarding National Socialism changed for women who lived in Germany during the Second World War and later immigrated to Canada. How has living in Canada for the past half century affected the way in which German immigrant women have come to terms with their Nazi past, especially in their adaptation to Canadian society?
Oral History Interview:
The interview will be audio taped using a tape recorder (in person for narrators in Manitoba, over the phone for those out of province). In the interview you may be identified by name, subject to your consent. You may also be identified by name in any transcript of such interview. If you choose to remain anonymous, the interview will only be identified by a number.
The interview will take approximately 2 hours and you can withdraw at any moment. If we are not able to cover all the questions in one interview if you agree another date can be scheduled. If you have any questions about the research project or procedures you may contact the principal investigator.
This thesis will use oral histories from approximately 10 women across Canada that lived in Germany during the Second World War.
The oral history interview will enable the principal investigator to ascertain the women's views on a variety of topics from the 1930s and 1940s through to present day. While women's views of National Socialism will be investigated, the main goal of this thesis is to determine how living in Canada affected these views. The results of the oral history interviews will be used to assess each woman's view and how it changed over time. The principal investigator will also look for links in the data - how did the women as a group regard National Socialism and how did this change after living in Canada?
Each narrator will receive a copy of their interview transcript shortly after the interview and will make any changes they feel necessary. If the narrators so request I will provide them with a finished copy of the project. The interview tapes will be deposited in the Archives of Manitoba after the project has been completed if the narrator consents.
152 Interviewer: If you accept to be interviewed, I , promise to respect the sensitivity of your experience and the terms of this consent form.
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153 Bibliography
Primary Sources
Blankenagel, Elfie. Interview by author, 19 September 2007, over the phone. Tape recording.
Boiler, Anne. Interview by author, 2 October 2007, over the phone. Tape recording. Clemens, Marianne. Interview by author, 3 November 2008, Oakbank, Manitoba. Tape recording.
Clemens, Marianne. "Life after War," The Clipper Weekly July 30,2007.
Clemens, Marianne. "Life under Command Bartold," The Clipper Weekly April 2,2007.
Janz, Christa. Interview by author, 3 December 2007, Winnipeg, Manitoba. Tape recording.
Knoll, Gertrude. Interview by author, 23 October 2007, Winnipeg, Manitoba. Tape recording.
Koch, Edith (pseudonym). Interview by author, 3 December 2006, Winnipeg, Manitoba. Tape recording.
Manion, Karin. Interview by author, 5 March 2007, over the phone. Tape recording.
Manion, Karin. This is My Life, unpublished manuscript.
Meyer, Irma (pseudonym). Interview by author, 24 October 2007, over the phone. Tape recording.
Redekopp, Elizabeth. Interview by author, 20 March 2007, Winnipeg, Manitoba. Tape recording.
Sobkowich, Erika. Interview by Angela Thiessen, Winnipeg, Manitoba, 7 September 2005. Interview in possession of Chair in German-Canadian Studies at the University of Winnipeg.
Weber, Agnes (pseudonym). Interview by author, 3 December 2006, Winnipeg, Manitoba. Tape recording.
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