I EXCERPTS FROM INTERVIEW WITH CHRIS HANI, CHIEF OF STAFF, (SPEAR OF THE NATION), THE AFRICAN NATIONAL CONGRESS, AT A PRESS CONFERENCE IN SAN FRANCISCO, APRIL 28, 1991

The following interview was taped April 28, 1991, during Chris Hani's visit to the Bay Area. Before leaving for New York to appear on national public radio's McNeil Lehrer News Hour, Mr. Hani addressed a large audience gathered in his honor at the Hyatt Regency Embarcadero in San Francisco, sponsored by People's Weekly World, and a youthful crowd at San Francisco State University, among other appearances wherein he responded to questions regarding the current situation in .

(Chris Hani's responses are in bold type; questions represent reporters from various media including The S. F. Chronicle and KPOO, a local Black radio station)

"...Let me just ask you about this letter which I understand has created a bit of controversy in South Africa... there was this mainline deadline and you had called for the resignation of the two ministers and several other things. Where does that stand now...?

Well, actually, as we indicated, that letter, or rather the spirit of that letter is to save negotiations. There's a lot of violence in the country, and the ANC is convinced that the government has not demonstrated any Mill to stop the violence. And that's why there was this decision taken after a serious meeting of the National Executive Committee to write to the South African Government to once more try to create conditions where we can talk seriously about...a new constitution in our country. ...[T]hey have not yet responded...except publicly Making statements. We still expect them to respond in a proper manner because we wrote to them an open letter. They can write an open letter to us if they want to do that, because we want to sit down with them and hammer out agreements which will save the processes of negotiations. For us,if they don't respond satisfactorily, there is no other alternative but to walk out of the talks, because we cannot talk with a government that is not negotiating in good faith, that is perceived by us to be 'creating conditions of destabilizing the ANC.

Can you comment on the Conference of Patriotic Forces,and specifically, like the relationship between the ANC and the PAC (Pan African Congress)?

Actually, we are all encouraged by the developments taking place on the issue of unity of liberation movements in our country. I think both the ANC and the PAC have recognized that in this crucial moment of pushing the [inaudible] of our people, we need to work together, to sit down together and work common strategies. This does not mean that there are no differences between the ANC and the PAC. But we have concerned ourselves with those things which are common between the two organizations. The Meeting in Harare [Zimbabwe] was a remarkable achievement. And we are going, certainly, to strengthen what we gained in Harare at another meeting within South Africa, hopefully in August. But that is not the end of our objective. We need to pull in other groups like AZAPO [The Azania Peoples Organization], like homeland organizations, and leaders who have openly coBBitted themselves to a nonracial south Africa.

Dust to come back to the issue of negotiations. . . to what extent are negotiations threatened?...

Well, 1 think the South African regime once more has got a serious responsibility to be seen by the people of South African to be concerned about a peaceful negotiated settlement. Really, they are the de facto government; they've got the instruments of power; they control the police and the security. Hence, more than everybody else, they should address this question of the violence which is affecting us, and affecting our efforts to build the ANC. And we only hope that they are not taking our demands as mere bluff. We need to talk to one another so that we can reduce the bloodletting which has dominated the political situation in our country. We are the people who know the extent of the violence because we stay in the townships. So it's important for the regime to listen to our feelings, because it is the ANC which initiated negotiations; it is not the South African government. Of course, they've been trying to reciprocate in their own way. And we still hope...that de Klerk will see reason and show clear signs that he is prepared to create a climate conducive to negotiations.

One of the ways this letter has been portrayed in the South African press, also in the press in this country, is a sign that the hardliners...or the more militant wing of the ANC ...has won out. I'm sure you've seen those articles; and you, of course,... are associated... with that tendency. How do you respond to that interpretation?

Unfortunately, only outsiders — the South African press, the regime, and people even here who are victims of South African propaganda — see divisions between the so—called hardliners and moderates. Certainly, within the ANC leadership, we don't see one another as representing different trends. We see ourselves as people committed to the policies of the ANC. The ANC has got a policy. That policy which includes or embraces the strategies of the Bovenent binds all of us; it guides all of us. So all of us carry out the decisions of the ANC as best we can. Certainly, there's no struggle for power in the ANC...that is not the tradition of the ANC. But you see the press and the regime of South Africa want to influence the June conference. They want to introduce an unhealthy atmosphere, so that there should be a perception on the part of the people, the international community... that there's a battle for this position...We don't run a struggle on the basis of positions. If you are elected democratically, then you are elected and you do your best to contribute. Positions...they are a responsibility. Our lives are threatened; some elements in the right wing want to kill us. So there is nothing to gain by being a member of the National Executive Committee. For me, I would like a situation where I could rest and be with my family. But then, 1 know I have not completed the task of contributing to the struggle. So I mean that is a game they want to play...but it does not reflect the situation inside the ANC. There are no tensions inside the ANC.... there's an ongoing discussion within the ANC about relationships with the government, the role of negotiations, and so on...Well, that is an ongoing process.... There are still working groups discussing the release of political prisoners, the return of exiles. These working groups which comprise members of the ANC and representatives of the regime are taking place...we raise our fears about the pace of the release of people; we raise our fears about the conduct of some police officers in certain areas....So there is ongoing contact and discussions with the Pretoria regime. I want to ask you, how does the de Klerk government play upon various nationalities — like there are Indians over there; there are different Asians. You mentioned Gatcha Buthelezi. You see the ANC is committed to nonracialism. The world tries to portray the ANC as an organization for Africans. That's not the way the ANC is. The basic feature of the ANC is nonracial membership, and this is reflected at all levels. At the top, we have comrades of Indian origin who are playing an important part in our struggle... these are leaders of our people and they are loved by all freedom lovers, whether they are African people of mixed race or they are Asians. We go out of our way to build branches of the ANC everywhere. There .are branches of the ANC where people of Asian origin live, in places where people of mixed race live, in places where Africans live, because we are building nonracialism in our country — because South African is a country that belongs to all the people of South Africa whether they are Black or White. It's my understanding there's great respect for you among youth and youth movements in South Africa. Can you comment on the state of where the youth are at in South Africa? Well, I think that is not a correct position. I don't think that people love me as an individual. I think if they show some affection, they are showing affection and love for the ANC. They certainly love Mandela; they get wild when they see Mandela. But I think they love all the leaders of the ANC who in different ways have contributed towards some partial victories that we have scored so far. Well, probably, with me, again, they relate to me because I'm the Chief of Staff of the army. It's the youth that are fighting. The brunt of the armed struggle is carried out by young people, and they see me and other commanders of MK...as representing a spirit of Militancy, a spirit of engaging the regime. I think that's about all. ...in terms of the post- South Africa, the issue of land...how is the ANC going to deal with that? I want to begin by saying, when the government took away our land and decided to give us only 133 in the so-called native reserves, it was exactly the situation that happened with the Indian Americans in this country. Push the indigenous to the most barren areas of the country, and take all the fertile land and give it to the colonialists. Now the central issue in our country is also land. We can't say we are free if there is no distribution of that land so that as much as possible the Blacks get the same land rights as the Whites. It will mean that the state — a new South African democratic state must intervene because the land is in the hands of the Whites, 87% of the land. We must intervene and say that no individual is going to be allowed to own 3,000 hectares or 10,000 hectares when other people have no land rights. We have got to have a ceiling. That does not mean we are going to be taking all the land from the Whites. They are entitled to some land, and the land must be so divided that the criterion is not color. And we must correct that injustice where force was used to take away the land and to give it to the Minority [Whites] at a very cheap price. The state must start affirmative action; it must get resources to help people not only to possess land, but to have seed, fertilizer and equipment so that they can cultivate that land and be able to feed themselves. You know the homelands in South Africa and the American Indian reservations are one and the same. The man came from the apartheid government to the United States to look at the reservation system, so they could repeat it in South Africa....And we as American Indians, you know, our land base has been reduced just like our population. Our population has been reduced to less than one percent of all this nation, and so has our land base. And for American Indians, we too [take the] stand that we need our land returned to us. And we're not asking for all of it; we're asking for land to live like human beings to take care of our fami lies....We're not asking for millions and millions of acres; we're just asking for entitlement back to each tribe....The earth, the land, was never to be divided, or no one could own it, you know. It belonged to all of us. And only until the world can return to that kind of thinking can things be different...... about fighting among Blacks in South Africa... Well, what is the ANC doing about fights amongst Black South Africa? I think this is an exaggerated issue. There's certainly no fighting among Black South Africans. It is fighting that is encouraged by the racist regime by selecting certain groups, arming them and equipping them, and commanding and instructing then to attack Black communities. We have seen this thing in Angola and Mozambique — where some elements supported by imperialism, by Western governments, by racist South Africa, were actually used to destabilize governments and administrations. What we are seeing in South Africa is a process of destabilization started and encouraged by the ruling class in our country....what we are doing is of course to build unity amongst our people. I have already answered this question about having meetings with the PAC, with AZAPO, to build a united front of all anti-apartheid movements. We are bringing in homelands governments and organizations and individuals to strengthen this unity, and to isolate that small group which is being used by the regime. We must also accept that there are Blacks who are anti-liberation movement, a few of them, who have benefited fro* apartheid in the past because they were used as boss boys. They were given certain positions to help apartheid work. Those Blacks are those collaborators, counselors, leaders of collaboration movements, leaders of ...They benefited though they are Black, and worked together with the South African government, [like Catena Buthelezi] We shall continue having Black collaborators until we have freedom. And even after freedom, there will be those Blacks who will still be holding the skirt of the Minority. And we can't help it. We mustn't feel that every Black Ban will take a position in the trench and fight against apartheid. Some of them are interested in their own well-being, selfishly, and they are not thinking about the majority of Black people. We shall certainly have -those Blacks for quite some time. [question re returning political prisoners and exiles)

Well, safety is relative. I went back to South Africa though it is not safe. They oust come back into the country and continue with the struggle. There will be no safety until apartheid is overthrown. Anybody who thinks about safety is not serious about the struggle. The struggle is about sacrifices. Let those who are outside use the opening, the indemnity to come in, in order to continue the struggle for freedom.

Regarding sanctions and what the U.S. Government is about to do [has now already done]...

...Of course they say if de Klerk releases all political prisoners, allow exiles to return, and if some laws which they consider pillars of apartheid are repealed...then de Klerk should be rewarded by lifting some sanctions. Well, our position is quite clear. In the first place, we have never accepted that de Klerk should be [rewarded] for making some declarations, because the main problem in South Africa is apartheid. Sanctions should remain as long as apartheid is still in place. And as long as the process of constitutional discussion has not taken place, [and until] there is an interim government — because only an interim government will guarantee that the whole process is irreversible. You can't allow the destiny of millions of people to be shaped by a government which has no authority from them, no mandate from them. ...this administration must really try to listen to the victims of apartheid, those of us who are in the struggle to remove apartheid. If apartheid today is in a crisis and de Klerk is talking about change, it is because of people like Mandela and the leaders of the ANC, and those who are in exile, people like [Oliver] Tambo ...people who have played this important role, central role, really should be consulted.... But we say in the ANC, in the PAC, in the Trade Union Movement, this is not the time to lift sanctions... What kind of response did you get...that argument apparently fell on deaf ears in Europe... I'm not optimistic. I've got the feeling, and I'm subject to being corrected, that they are determined not to shift the goal posts. That is the most overused phrase at the White House and the State Department. April 30 is the deadline set by the ANC to release all political prisoners and repatriate exiles. Is there a chance that the suspension of the armed struggle may be given up if the government doesn't comply with this? . . Well, the decision to resume the armed struggle lies with the ANC leadership and the ANC membership. I think the ANC after April 30 will call some meeting...to discuss what to do if the conditions as stipulated at this conference are not met. ...In light of what has happened in Europe which has lifted some parts of the sanetions...what is the response of the non-aligned movement ? I think there's some slight confusion everywhere...a lack of a deeper understanding of what is happening in South Africa on the part of the international community and on the part of some African states. I think what is needed is for us once more as we used to do to explain ourselves rather more aggressively on this issue of sanctions. We must go to the O.A.U., the Frontline States, to the non-aligned countries...! mean we appreciate the sacrifices of Frontline States and other African countries; we appreciate their economic woes. And I can tell you South Africa is not going to solve their economic woes, because South Africa has got its own serious economic problems.... So I think this euphoria that a new South Africa would immediately generate economic prosperity in Africa...this euphoria should really be dismissed. The African countries, for instance, have sacrificed in supporting us; they sacrificed for a democratic South Africa, and they must not talk of [lifting] sanctions when that democratic South Africa is really not around the corner. I just want to ask you about your general mood now in terms of the process in South Africa, the way it's presented there's a huge crisis in the negotiating process. Are you optimistic...? I'm very optimistic. And my optimism is not based on what is happening to negotiations...! think negotiations are in trouble, and unless the regime intervenes to create proper conditions for negotiations...we are heading for a serious situation in our country. And of course we are not helpless. We shall wage a struggle as we have waged a struggle in the past. But ny optimism is based on the mood of the people...their confidence, their militancy, and their impatience with apartheid. I think our people have decided that we are going to dismantle apartheid. And I think that is what causes optimism. Optimism is based on the fighting militance of the people. I think...it's really immaterial what de Klerk does ultimately. The people will have a democratic South Africa...and no armed force whatsoever can stop this process. I think we have reached a situation in South Africa where we are no longer prepared to live under apartheid, and we are ready to make whatever sacrifices to get that democratic South Africa. And if the sanctions are lifted...and they probably will be . . . concretely, will that set back the movement?

No, not at all. It will demoralize for a short time, because it's nice when you're fighting those guys to say, yeah, !'• fighting, the world is behind me. That feeling is good. But it's not going to affect our determination to fight. And I think this question of lifting sanctions is based on miscalculations. What business person in his right mind is going to invest in a country where we are out in the street striking, where we are marching, and where we are doing everything to undermine apartheid? They won't invest. Of course, they will get their Krugerrands, their iron ore...that's what they want; they want those Minerals... they're concerned about their economies, not about us.

In light of this...you talk about demoralization, temporary, if sanctions are lifted. What about actions of the formally socialist countries, as well as the Soviet Union; they're talking about opening relations with South African, and they had some meetings in Europe. Is this having any [affect]?

Well, they are no longer socialist governments; they've been taken over by right-wing groups.

What about the Soviet Union?

Well, I'm coming to the Soviet Union as well [laughter]. I think right-wing groups in the former socialist countries — racist groups in the true sense of the word. He have seen them now, how they are behaving. You know, at the time of the Hungarian uprising in 1956, I was still a very young boy, Hungarians flocked to our country running away from the so-called oppression in Hungary. They became the worst racists in our country. That was repeated by the Poles running away from Poland, by the Czechs and the Slovaks...from 1968. So it was quite clear that in these societies there were elements, powerful elements, who have got racist tendencies. And those right-wing groups in fact who should have run [away] from South Africa then but decided to remain, are in power in this country and they are eager to set up links within the regime. We have no links with them any longer. It's a serious setback because whatever happened in those countries — the GDR [German Democratic Republic or East Germany], for instance, was a very firm ally of the ANC in the struggle for freedom and social justice. The Soviet Union did a lot for our struggle, and we hope that this process of pressures to the right...fail, because we need a powerful, strong Soviet Union to counter. I think the weakness of the Soviet Union has brought about a bad climate internationally. Some of these countries have become bully boys in the world because there's no counter balancing force like the Soviet Union...and we hope that the process that is eroding the Soviet Union won't continue to the extent where the Soviet Union becomes like Hungary or Poland. And of course the Soviet Union has agreed to accept a South African regime in Moscow. That reflects a growing tendency of accommodating the regime....We are protesting to the Soviet Union, and we shall continue to tell them that this is not the right thing to do, Soviet Comrades. Don't join in this popular bandwagon of lifting sanctions. ...de Klerk is getting international recognition which he does not have any recognition

8 in South Africa. We don't like him. Our people don't like him. The world can decide to sleep with de Klerk in one bed. But we are certainly not going to sleep together with de Klerk in South Africa because he represents apartheid.

Joe Siovc has written about soine of the mistakes made in European CoT.iTiLinis t parties and Socialist rr.c verier; t s . riov; has the South African Co IT. rn u n 1st Party [5ACP] been able to maintain ties among the people ana to be the vital Communist party in the world?

You see, we consider ourselves born-again Communists, [laughter] We recognize the serious mistakes made in the Soviet Union and other Socialist countries. And we feel that we should democratize our party as much as possible. We as a party accept pluralism and multi-partyism...if one day we are elected, it should be on the basis of an electoral victory...we shall not use force to entrench ourselves. . . . We are popular for a number of reasons: We have been a fighting communist party; we have participated in all forms of struggle — mass struggle, armed struggle....we accept the leading role of the ANC. We don't dispute or contest the leadership of the African National Congress. We don't...say how many positions should we canvass in the ANC. That is not allowed in the Party. We go to the Party and differ among ourselves; sometimes I differ with Slovo on any number of issues when we are in the ANC discussing ANC issues. No Party member is allowed to lobby. Even at our recent meeting of the internal leadership group, we said there is going to be an important conference of the ANC: let us as Communists work hard to ensure that it succeeds... because the ANC has a vital role in bringing about national democracy in our country.... Of course we are committed to socialism.... But at this moment we say socialism in South Africa is not immediately on the agenda. On the agenda is national democracy, strengthening of democracy and redistribution of the wealth of our country. And after that, we will consider what strategies now to push for a socialist [state]; we are committed to socialism ultimately.

...Apparently, there's been some discussion about people holding offices in both ANC a n o S A CP. How is that debate?

[laughs] I think we should debate everything in the Party, in COSATU [Congress of South African Trade Unions], in the ANC. People should discuss their concerns about comrades having many positions. ...It's a question of efficiency ...We have got to discuss this because the movement will stagnate if one individual will hold as many positions as possible...

I'm really interesteu in t n e youth of South Africa. '«h a t kinc of democratic structures are they bull cine, and whet Kind of organizations are they starting to ouilo? ...The young people have played a central role in the waging of struggle against the regime in Pretoria. The army, of which I'm Chief of Staff, is principally made up of young people. So the youth have made that contribution even in the armed struggle. But also in the process of the general mobilization of the people, the young people have played an equally important role. the African National Congress knows very well that its future as a movement, and the future of a democratic South Africa rests with the youth. That is why we have set up early this year the African National Congress Youth League which is a vehicle for the mobilization of our young people. Equally, we have given support and encouragement to the formation of youth student organizations like the South African National Student Congress, SAN5CO,...we are working very closely with all these youth organizations... because we believe there can never be a future if the youth is not included in our discussions and the waging of a struggle for a democratic transformation in our country.

You talked a little bit in your speech yesterday about developing a democratic constitution ...how [do] you view the current court system and how you're yoing to develop a constitution that meets the needs of the people?

The current court system, the current judiciary, is racist and undemocratic. We need to radically change the South African judiciary. It must be the watch dog and defend the democratic constitution. It should certainly be independent of the government and of the executive; and it must be given powers to intervene in situations where they see the violation of the constitution. In other words, citizens should have the right to challenge the government in the courts of the land where they feel the government is actually attacking or violating the rights of the citizens. And we think that in a future South Africa, in order to ensure that democracy does not degenerate — because we've seen instances in the world where democracies have degenerated — we must have an institution made up of people who are not accountable to the government, committed individuals who are knowledgeable in the processes of jurisprudence. And these individuals must feel free to challenge a government and even to step in and say this is unconstitutional.

I'd like to ask you about how you see George Bush's new world order as affecting the movement in South Africa and your struggle?

Well, he speaks of a new world order, and for me, this sounds like a slogan. A new world order can only exist when all of us tackle the problems facing the majority of the people everywhere in the world. And ordinary people want to have employment; they want

10 houses; they want a decent educational system; they want hospitals and medical services; and they want to see a situation where there's a visible distribution of wealth, so that we don't have people who are extremely rich and people who are extremely poor. For me, I would certainly go along with a new world order if I see ...priority number one in the world is to ensure that nobody starves, that everybody's got three mralc a day, [s]he's got shelter, [s]he can send his[her] children to school without having to pay exorbitant fees, that [s]he can have reasonable access — without having to pay fees — to medical at tent ion.... those are the basic things that a new world order should tackle. Certainly, a new world order should spend less on arms and armaments. We should have a situation, an atmosphere where every country feels free to pursue policies which are in the interest of the people.... There must be no big brother here and no small brother. It must be a world order where we can discuss as equals without anybody playing the role of a bully boy. How is it going to be possible, .[in light of] the changes in the balanct of the world -- being that the Soviet Union is [no longer] playing tne rcie of the bastion of the liberation movements as it has in the past -- [to cjet to] that new world order given the change in the world, particularly what's happened in the latest !Julf war, for example? Well, I think the peoples of the world have had a shocking experience. We have seen the immense power of the United States and its allies in using force to correct what they see as a wrong. I think nobody should have a right in this world to decide what is right and what is wrong. In my own view, the problems of the Middle East should have been left to the Arabs...The Arab people would have known how to deal with the situation. I think it was wrong for Saddam Hussein to intervene in Kuwait, to annex Kuwait. I think the Arabs should have been given every chance, supported by the United Nations, to correct that situation. It would have taken them some time. But I think it was wrong for a big power like the U.S. to use modern weapons, because in the process thousands of innocent people were killed. But going further than that, I see personally a situation where all of us have got to assert ourselves....Let us not leave decision-making only to the governments; let us not be swayed by patriotic zeal..."I'm going to be with my country whether it's right or wrong." There are certain values we should uphold... values of peace and democracy. War is devastating and war should be the last resort...we should give every chance to a process of dialogue. You know, it is regrettable... that the Soviet Union has got the current problems, and that world socialism as a system has collapsed because it played a role, definitely, of counter-

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-.•-*• -_.'•• - . - balancing. When the Soviet Union was there, it was always difficult for the United States to dictate.... everybody is saturating us with the problems and the setbacks and the disasters of social ism.... the press is no longer focusing on the problems of the ordinary people, problems of homeless people, problems of jobs. Certainly in most countries, people are not even looking at the problems of recession where retrenchment is the order of the day. We are simply rejoicing that oh, the Soviet Union has collapsed. I think we have got to put our act together, and we should organize a counter-offensive to push for the improvement of the lives of ordinary, working people; and for challenging the rights of corporations to impose their decisions on us, to decide whether we should have jobs or not. It is certainly now the time when we should wake up to the realities of where we are on the defensive as progressive and democratic forces, and say how do we ensure that capitalism does not kick us around.

You said yesterday...that socialism isn't on thu immediate agenda. Vvhe;i will it oe on the immediate a yen da?

Any revolution, especially national liberation revolution, when it triumphs, has got to consolidate itself. Consolidation in our own situation means that we must ensure that racism disappears in our country, that we build a united people in a united country, that we begin to attend to the problems of the legacies of apartheid - - housing, education, medical facilities, etc. — once we have consolidated that, the South African Communist Party which all along has been educating our people on socialism, what socialism is about....The ideal society is where there is no exploitation. Now, as a party, once we have consolidated the independence of South Africa and the freedom, we have got to map our road to socialism. And every year we have congresses. At congresses, you see, communists sit down and say this is what is happening in terms of the state of national democracy. Now having consolidated national democracy, how do we move forward to socialism. ...it is very difficult to say when, because all these processes have got to be reviewed from time to time; but certainly, gradually, we must move our society from domination by private enterprise. But we've got to take to heart seriously all the problems the socialist countries are confronted with, so that we don't repeat the mistakes. We move toward socialism, which I still see as the only hope for humanity, ensuring that the quality of life under social ism... becomes better than life under capitalism. We can't just preach good ideas when concretely... life is difficult for the people. You know, socialism is worthless when it can't deliver the goods to the people.

...aoout tnis new world order, if the U.S. does have a freer hand now to act unilaterally with .military means, what does this mean

12 for South Africa specifically and Southern Africa in general? What do you think the Bush Administration is likely to do in South Africa? Well, it's an alarming thing for any country to want to act unilaterally, and we are alarmed because we have the resources which are crucial to the economies of the Western countries. When we achieve our freedom, we shall negotiate for better prices for our raw materials. We think, for instance, we are getting a raw deal out of our resources. For instance,... you guys are not going to get our coal, magnesium, our gold, because you are not paying us properly. Would it be right for the United States to send marines to our country? Certainly not. And what I fear about this unilateral intervention is that once more the armaments race, the race to buy weapons is going to be stepped up, and this is not in the interest of humanity. I think we must go toward disarmament, because monies spent on weapons are some of the monies you need to improve the living conditions of the people. I think the American people have a very big role to play in trying to stop...this country from intervening in the affairs of other people.

...I sense a real modesty, and you seem to want to credit the people for all the gains made in South Africa, but I'm curious about your indemnity...when you and. ..other returning ANC exiles come into South Africa. ..what's going to happen to you and others? Well, what happens to me and to others, if the regime decides to arrest us, we regard this as the normal price we've got to pay for liberation. Certainly, the regime continues to detain our people, and we cannot expect to escape detention, even ourselves. We are certainly not going to be pleading with the regime to extend our indemnities. I think we are entitled, all of us, to an uncondi- tional indemnity. What we are going to be doing in South Africa is actually to campaign for an overall and unconditional indemnity. Will there be a. lot of debate within the A N C and the other liberation forces in South Africa over whether to continue the suspension of the armed struggle after April 3D?

I think at our conference in June, certainly there's going to be a debate and a review of the suspension of armed struggle. Delegates are going to be coming to that conference with their own experiences of violence in their own communities; and they're going to be asking questions — whether the suspension has been negative or positive, whether actually we have gained as a movement from the [inaudible] to have suspended the armed struggle. This issue will be discussed, and I'm sure there will be a commission at that conference on armed struggle. At the end of the day, the ANC will have to be guided by decisions of conference. 13