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WADING INTO THE WANDJINA CONTROVERSY Download audioshow transcript Broadcast:Tuesday 29 June 2010 8:30AM (view full episode) There's an unfolding controversy swirling around a two-metre, eight-tonne sculpture with the title Wandjina Watchers in the Whispering Stone. The sculpture sits in the front yard of a wellness and art centre in Katoomba, but has ignited passions all the way from the chilly Blue Mountains to the searing deserts of the Kimberley in WA. Indigenous groups are furious that the artist did not seek permission before using what they regard as sacred imagery. Both sides are now mounting a battle with a number of legal dimensions including copyright, planning approval, even freedom of religion. View comments (116) FacebookTwi tter DeliciousRedditDiggEmail what are these? Transcript Hide Damien Carrick: Hello, welcome to the Law Report. Today, a sculpture that has ignited passions all the way from the chilly Blue Mountains of New South Wales, all the way to the searing deserts of the Kimberley, in WA. It's an artwork that throws into sharp relief a number of diverse legal issues around copyright, and around planning processes. And also how we balance group cultural rights with the rights of individuals. Vesna Tenodi owns a business known as the ModroGorje Wellness and Art Centre in the main street of Katoomba, in the Blue Mountains. In March, she unveiled a sculpture in the front yard of the centre. The sculpture is titled, Wandjina Watchers in the Whispering Stone. Now wandjinas are creation spirits central to the belief systems and the cultural practices of three Indigenous groups in the Kimberley. And many Indigenous Australians are now furious with Vesna Tenodi. They say she should not have used the sacred imagery of the Wandjina without permission of the custodians of that traditional knowledge. For its part, the Blue Mountains City Council has required Vesna Tenodi to lodge a development application to obtain planning approval for the artwork. Interested parties have one month, starting from last Wednesday, to lodge their views. I asked Vesna Tenodi to tell me about the ModroGorje Wellness and Art Centre in Katoomba. Vesna Tenodi: Well it is our home, with our private art collection open to the public for public enjoyment, and with the sculpture in front of our house. And that is a part of our Dream Raisers project which has the aim to raise awareness about the decline of spirituality in the world and help people reconnect with important concepts and universal laws. Damien Carrick: So it was a new age shop or gallery or centre, is that the correct way to describe it? Vesna Tenodi: No, it wasn't called new age, because it's over-used and it has become meaningless. Let's call it an art centre and wellness centre. Damien Carrick: Well tell me about this sculpture. How big is it and what does it look like and where is it placed? Vesna Tenodi: The rock is a local sandstone, an eight and a half tonne block. It's two metres high, which I'm proud to say is the largest sculpture ever carved by a single artist in Australia. And I got Ben Osvath, a Sydney painter, and sculptor, to do the stone, and when we were talking about the design of the stone, I need to say that as an archaeologist, I was always fascinated with cave paintings and rock carvings in Europe, and my degree thesis was Spirituality of Neolithic Man. So we viewed all that together, and then he carved four, five of the stones which are a combination of sculpture and a mural. And every side has wandjina on it, representing particular idea and particular law, and it's called Wandjina Watchers in the Whispering Stone. Damien Carrick: Now I understand that some people from the Kimberley region of WA, from where the Wandjina knowledge comes from, they've been very, very critical of this sculpture. What do you make of those criticisms? Vesna Tenodi: I wouldn't know about that because they haven't approached me or told me or put it in writing, any objections that they might have. All that we experienced is violence and vandalism by a few local angry Aborigines. And so I wouldn't know what people think because once they start screaming profanities in our face and making death threats, I stop listening. Damien Carrick: So the sculpture was unveiled I think in March this year. What has happened since the unveiling of the sculpture? Vesna Tenodi: On 5th March the sculpture was vandalised, one day before official unveiling. And we went to have its unveiling nevertheless, and now it stays there as it is. It was supposed to represent reconciliation and celebration of Aboriginal spirituality, but now it has turned into a sign of some people's violence and inability to express their opinion in a civilised way. Damien Carrick: I think you would say that you've done this for Aboriginal people and for reconciliation; does it worry you though that the communities for whom the Wandjina spirits are important don't like the sculpture? Vesna Tenodi: Well it's not what we planned, let's put it that way. And I did make numerous attempts to reach them and to obtain their co-operation and I kept advising them as a matter of courtesy and hoping for their participation. So if they're unhappy, I don't know why, because in my mind this is a non-issue. There is no copyright on prehistoric imagery, and no-one can prohibit any artist to explore the design, or to express themselves or to be influenced or inspired, and this happens all the time. And I can recognise in contemporary art or sculpture, the work, I can recognise exactly the prehistoric figurine that they're inspired by, it's so obvious, and I

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would never hold it against them that they draw inspiration from Egyptian tradition, or Greek mythology, or Roman gods. I mean like cave paintings in Europe, Altamira or Lascaux, or the beautiful cave art that belongs to let's say the same time as Australian art. They are listed on UNESCO's World Heritage List, and that makes sense in my mind, because it does belong to the world, and to claim ownership, any individual or group or nation to claim ownership of those is simply ludicrous. Damien Carrick: Some people are saying that look, maybe we should change the law in terms of the way it deals with cultural knowledge and the use of images and concepts and styles which are owned collectively by individual groups, and we should have tighter rules around non-indigenous people who want to use those images and styles. What do you say to that? What issues does that raise for you? Vesna Tenodi: Well for me, that sounds like reverse racism. You're white, you have no right to, you know—my husband is Caucasian European, a Croat who teaches tai chi, and Eastern martial arts, and he's not Chinese and he has a lot of Chinese students. So what does it mean, that everybody has to stick to their own culture and is prohibited from exploring imagery that—when you say collective., they belong, collectively, to the world. So I don't understand how could anyone claim a symbol, an image, an idea, or this is my understanding that intellectual property law does not allow anyone to copyright an idea, and how can you claim ownership of God, and Wandjinas are gods. Damien Carrick: So you're saying that all people should have a right to use the symbols and imagery which they feel speak to them? Vesna Tenodi: Absolutely. And every artist has the right to explore and express the divine, and I mean expression or artistic freedom or freedom of religion, every basic human freedom would then be trampled on. So I don't think that—that's a ludicrous proposition. Damien Carrick: Vesna Tenodi, who commissioned the controversial two-metre, eight-tonne sculpture known as Wandjina Watchers in the Whispering Stone. It stands in the front yard of her property on the main street of Katoomba. Vesna says the Wandjina spirits communicate with her, and the initiative for the sculpture came from the Wandjina spirits. Donny Woolagoodja is a traditional elder from the Kimberley. In March he visited Katoomba to see the sculpture for himself. He was very upset by what he saw. Donny Woolagoodja: Well I thought it was very wrong to do something that somebody put...did not belong to her. You know, it was our Dreaming, and - very angry about. It's not her image and people that use our images,they don't really know all about it. Damien Carrick: Can you tell me why it's wrong for her to use the images? Donny Woolagoodja: Well I mean it's not belong to her, it's not her Dreaming. It belongs to us. Our ancestors had it before any western people came to Australia. Damien Carrick: Vesna Tenodi says she's not trying to be disrespectful, she just wants to promote understanding, or raise awareness of Aboriginal knowledge and wisdom. What do you say to that argument? Donny Woolagoodja: It's not hers to use. It's like I'm going using somebody's things in their propertyand you just can't do that anymore. I can't do that to somebody else's image. Damien Carrick: When you visited Katoomba, did you try to speak with Vesna? Donny Woolagoodja: No, I didn't, because I just looked at her and I could see right through her, because she's not the right woman to talk to. Damien Carrick: Right. So you felt that you just couldn't engage with her because she had done the community wrong. Donny Woolagoodja: Yes. But in my side of law when I hear somebody that has not the right to use our images,you can feel it, it's like Wandjina is like part of us. Damien Carrick: She tells me that she wanted to sit down and talk with you, but you felt that was inappropriate? Donny Woolagoodja: Yes. It's not for me to talk, you know, I mean I have to come back to the main group and I asked them what they think and they didn't want me to talk to her. Damien Carrick: Is there anything else that you want to say to people so they can understand the perspective of the people of the Kimberley on this issue? Donny Woolagoodja: Well a lot of people misuse our images; it's not right and like they come and talk to the rightful people and get a permission for using it. Damien Carrick: I think Vesna says that she tried to contact the people at Mowanjum artists, so your organisation, to talk with people, for about six months before she unveiled the sculpture, and she said she wasn't able to talk to people there. Why was that? Because you didn't feel it was appropriate? Donny Woolagoodja: They refused, they didn't want anybody to use it and she just went ahead and do it. Damien Carrick: Vesna would argue that, well, we all have freedom of religion and freedom of expression and if people feel a connection to something, then they should be able to express that. What do you say to that argument? Donny Woolagoodja: Oh, well, not really, I mean it's not free for anybody to use it. We have to control it because if one person can use it, well then the whole world would use it, so you've got to be very careful what you're doing.. Damien Carrick: Kimberley elder Donny Woolagoodja. Jenny Wright is the manager of the Mowanjum Arts and Cultural Centre in Derby, WA. She works closely with Donny and other

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members of the local Indigenous community. Jenny Wright: I think it's a really interesting issue, Damien, because what I see is a real culture clash going on, and what I see is remote Indigenous people having very little protection under Australian law for the sort of things that have happened. And I must say that it caused great offence and great pain to the people here, because the Wandjina image to them is sacred imagery, and I think I probably have a point of view that my grandmother may have understood the point of view of the people here much more than my generation, or younger generations would have. Because I think we've started to lose that idea of sacred imagery. You know, my grandma would have been absolutely horrified at a T-shirt with the Virgin Mary on it, but you can get a T-shirt with the Virgin Mary or Buddha or Krishna or whoever you like on it today, you know, down any market. So we've kind of lost that idea of imagery being sacred and imagery having power. But the people in Mowanjum and the three language groups who have Wandjina as their law, their belief system, that's how they depict the creation spirit, it's immensely important to them, it's immensely emotionally important to them for their wellbeing. They feel if it's misused in any way, you know, ill can befall people, and they have very strong beliefs in that way. So this case has been a really interesting illustration I think, of that culture clash, if you like. Damien Carrick: Vesna Tenodi would say look, this controversy raises fundamental issues around what she would say is freedom of expression, freedom of religion, the ability to express what you believe in your heart. What would be your response to that argument? Jenny Wright: It's interesting, isn't it? I think one part of me would say, Vesna we've taken everything from these people, we've taken their land, we've taken their language, we've destroyed their culture. Are we going to take their religion too? It just seems to me, and I know I'm making a very strong statement here, but I do feel this in my heart, that it just seems to me that that's so grossly unfair, and as an Australian I think you should feel ashamed of yourself, seriously. Appropriation of absolutely everything. Is there nothing left of these people that we won't take? Really, I'm sorry Vesna, if you see yourself as a spiritual person, I'm sorry I can't have that point of view of this behaviour, I really can't. It's insensitive to the extreme. Damien Carrick: It does raise interesting issues, because I think you're correct in identifying this as a moral and ethical issue, because if the law stepped in, I mean it might take us to strange places, or strange results. Jenny Wright: Our copyright law, intellectual property law is set up to protect individual rights, and this is again an example of culture clash, because traditional Indigenous culture is communal, and the rights are felt to be communal. What Donny was talking about is the communal rights of his tribal group, the three tribal groups, who have the right to work with Wandjina imagery because it's their law. Anyone from traditional Aboriginal communities would understand that totally. But we live in a really different paradigm, we don't think like that, we're very much individual-rights-driven, and I think that's also one of the enormous differences between Indigenous culture and mainstream white culture. Damien Carrick: Jenny Wright, manager of the Mowanjum Arts Centre in Derby. She recently contacted the Arts Law Centre of Australia to seek advice about possible legal responses to the Katoomba sculpture. Lawyer Robyn Ayres is the executive director of the Arts Law Centre. She says it's certainly not the first time an Indigenous community has been distressed by the use of sacred imagery or knowledge by non-Indigenous artists. Robyn Ayres: We've seen examples where rock art, which is thousands of years old, has been used or appropriated—which we see all the time in the tourism industry, all sorts of ways. We've had examples where artists' work's been reproduced in very inappropriate ways, colours changed, all those sorts of things happen. We've had examples where non-Indigenous artists, perhaps have had some sort of connection with an Indigenous community, or in a relationship with an Indigenous partner, decides to make work in the style of Aboriginal art which causes great concern. There's lots and lots of different examples that come up on a fairly frequent basis. Damien Carrick: I understand that there have been some cases where non-Indigenous people have gone into Indigenous communities, written down the stories that they've been told, and then published say a children's book based on those Dreaming stories, and tried to obtain copyright on those Dreaming stories. That sounds pretty inappropriate. Robyn Ayres: Well it is very inappropriate, but it happens all the time. There are so many examples where non-Indigenous people have gone into Indigenous communities and been given access to stories or styles of working and have just appropriated that into their own and either written a book or maybe artwork, or filmed the people without sort of thinking what are the cultural issues involved in this; is this appropriate? And that causes a lot of distress. Damien Carrick: And I understand that there have been cases in the past where Indigenous people have actually gone to the ACCC and lodged complains of misleading and deceptive conduct. What sorts of cases have there been n the past along those lines? Robyn Ayres: With misleading and deceptive conduct you have to show that the conduct has misled the public, that there's some sort of endorsement or support, or a connection with an Aboriginal community, or Aboriginal people, around a particular product or service. So for example, if you're selling an artwork and there's been cases around the tourism industry where you're selling tourism products which have been said to be Aboriginal made, and they're in fact not being made by Aboriginal people, then that would be an example of misleading and deceptive conduct. So if you're trying to show that there is some particular connection with an Aboriginal community, or that it has the support of the

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Aboriginal community, then that would maybe form the basis for a Section 52 action. Damien Carrick: And in terms of—is that something you'd consider in this case? Is that something which you'll be seeking instructions from your client about? Robyn Ayres: Look I think that's certainly something that needs to be looked at, whether there is a potential that people are being misled and deceived, that there is some endorsement or some connection with the Aboriginal community around that particular sculpture. Damien Carrick: Lawyer Robyn Ayres, executive director of the Arts Law Centre of Australia. You're listening to the Law Report on ABC Radio National. I'm Damien Carrick. Today a controversial sculpture, Wandjina Watchers in the Whispering Stone, which sits in the front garden of a private property on the main street of Katoomba in the Blue Mountains. So far we've been speaking about the intellectual property issues surrounding the sculpture and responses of the Indigenous people of the Kimberley. But for Vesna Tenodi there is a bigger legal issue, one that is much closer to home and much more immediate. The unveiling of the sculpture angered many local Indigenous people in the Blue Mountains. Shortly after the unveiling, the art work was vandalised. And Vesna Tenodi says she has received death threats from members of the local Indigenous community, the Darug people. Vesna Tenodi believes an atmosphere of intimidation has silenced her many supporters in the local community and spurred the local council to set in motion unnecessary and complex planning processes. I spoke with several Darug people. They say they understand the hurt of the Kimberley people and want them to know that the Darug do not approve of the sculpture. The people I spoke to say they don't know who vandalised the stone, but acknowledge that some people are very angry. It appears that relations between Vesna Tenodi and the local Indigenous people have deteriorated for a number of reasons. In addition to the sculpture some local Indigenous people are incensed by, a recent book, authored by Vesna Tenodi with the title Dreamtime Set in Stone. They're also incensed by a recent exhibition of Wandjina paintings at the Modrogorya Wellness and Art Centre done by non-Indigenous artist, Gina Sinozich. And they're also angry at the Wandjina Rising Dream Art Competition, which invites artists from across Europe and Australia to enter Wandjina themed artworks. For her part, Vesna Tenodi is perplexed by the hostility of Indigenous people to what she describes as an attempt to celebrate the Wandjinas and spread the word about Aboriginal spirituality. Over the next month, opponents and supporters alike will be able to make submissions in relation to her development application, which is before local council. Vesna Tenodi: The council got concerned that they have to appear super politically correct, and they reacted with speed of light to Aboriginal complaints. And I said, OK, fine, we'll comply, and we lodged a development application which is now being processed. Damien Carrick: The Darug people say they plan to participate in the local council planning process by lodging objections to both the sculpture and also the ModroGorje Wellness and Art Centre. Professor Kath Bowrey is an intellectual property expert who's based at the University of New South Wales Law School. She lives in the Katoomba area. She notes that this isn't the first time that a piece of public art has come to the attention of the local council. Kath Bowrey: I think these are really, really important issues, and I also think that generally we should be very careful about wanting to regulate forms of cultural expression and restricting people's freedom to actually produce particular works. But my view is that with this particular work it's not just a case of the actual freedom of expression of the work, but also the siting of the actual work, because whilst it's actually on private land, it's clearly a public statement, and clearly designed to be in the face of the public, if you like, and usually this is a type of activity that we do regulate, and it's interesting to compare the response to this particular artwork, which is perceived very much in terms of simply the private rights of artists, to other artworks in the mountains and how they've been treated. We've had another example here where there was a derelict block of land which had an old petrol station on it, and it had a lot of graffiti on the disused garage doors, and a local aerosol artist approached the owners, and with permission, painted a large image of Che Guevara on one of the panels, and a picture of Mike the rapper on the other. And... Damien Carrick: From the Beastie Boys, yes? Kath Bowrey: From the Beastie Boys, yes, right. And in that particular case a resident apparently complained to council about having a Che Guevara image in display in a publicly prominent place as a gateway to the mountains, and the council's response in that scenario was immediately to order the owner to paint over the image on the basis that they didn't have a development application for a mural. That was perceived by many in the community and there were letters to the local newspaper and voting on the newspaper website as to be an outrageous action and interference in the artist's freedom in that particular case. But the artwork was reluctantly painted over by the owner, who wasn't prepared to basically deal with the whole question about how to actually get planning permission for it, and also it was a building which was eventually going to be demolished for road widening, so for them it wasn't worth the effort. But what is interesting to me about that in that case, there was no discussion anywhere of the aerosol artist's freedom, it was an

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artwork which was generally quite well received but on the basis of one complaint by an unknown resident, council springs into action and requires that piece of artwork to be removed. Damien Carrick: Professor Kath Bowrey. And it remains to be seen how the planning process will unfold in this case. Indigenous lawyer Terri Janke is also an intellectual property expert. She's followed the Katoomba controversy with great interest. She reckons we need to think again about how we deal with cultural knowledge. Te rri Janke: There's limitations within the copyright system anyway, even if we do say let's have Indigenous communal moral rights in copyright; we're going to have the issue of the fact that copyright will only protect works in material form; we're also going to have the fact that copyright only lasts for 70 years after the death of the artist, where in cultural law, this is in perpetuity. So I think something like the Pacific model, or the protection of traditional knowledge and expressions of culture and the WIPO (World Intellectual Property Organisation) draft provisions on protection of traditional cultural expression, they're all looking at protection for traditional cultural expression, so there will be like visual forms, beliefs, dance, you know, traditional songs—all of those that come from a particular geographic region or a community will be protected. I think that a law that gives traditional owners a right to control traditional cultural expression, you know, even requiring the prior informed consent to create something like the sculpture, or you know, to include it in a book or a film, is something that we should have at law, particularly works that are of sacred significance and that are secret. The importance of keeping that connection to culture, the cultural expression, is important for Indigenous people to survive as a people, and you can see very clearly rights being articulated in Article 31 of the Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous People. I think that it is about survival of cultures, very strongly connected to people's rights in land and particularly when you're looking at figures, creation beings, that is at the heart of Indigenous peoples' whole existence. So you might think that you're only copying it and making an artwork, but if you really, really understood the spiritual and religious significance of those images, you would understand that they are coming from a place and a community, a living community. Damien Carrick: Can I play Devil's advocate with you? Vesna Tenodi says look, she genuinely believes that she communicates with Wandjina spirits and she would argue that this is her belief system, and we can't have other people saying you can't believe, you can't express your beliefs. It's a question of freedom of expression, even freedom of religion perhaps. Te rri Janke : Well what is the impact of that? You know, it's a balancing of rights, individual rights, with other people's rights, and how that impacts on communities. I think here you need to look at how that impacts with the cultural rights of these traditional custodians of the Wandjina to continue to practise their culture. It's about balancing that. All freedom of expression is measured. It's not just about getting permission in copyright, but you know, there's defamation laws, there's blasphemy and you can see debates there, that being a very Christian based law that protected any sort of demeaning representations to Christian religion, and I don't think that Indigenous spirituality has been recognised to the level of Christianity. Damien Carrick: It's fascinating, because I suppose with the Wandjina images, they were used in the Sydney Olympics, they became very much a public symbol of Australia, when that beautiful image arose in the opening ceremony of the Sydney Olympics. It's hard sometimes then to put that back in the can, or take that back into the domain or the reserve of the three communities in the Kimberley when it's been out there and used widely in some ways, in some contexts. Te rri Janke: And that's always the contention in this area. I mean you see Indigenous art being a $400 million per annum industry and Indigenous artists have developed their skills and are really eager to be part of that. It's a very thriving industry. But on the other hand there's this...like by making it popular, that it may be taken out of context, derogatorily treated, and your clan may no longer be named or connected with it. So that in some circumstances that I have seen makes people want to say, 'Well I won't share my culture with the wider world because this respect for culture, these cultural protocols, are not recognised at law .' Damien Carrick: Indigenous lawyer Terri Janke. That's the Law Report for this week. Guests Vesna Tenodi Owner of the ModroGorje Wellness and Art Centre in Katoomba Donny Woolagoodja Traditional elder from the Kimberley region of Western Australia Jenny Wright Manager of the Mowanjum Arts Centre in Derby, Western Australia Robyn Ayres Executive director of the Arts Law Centre of Australia Professor Kathy Bowrey Intellectual property expert at the University of NSW Law School Terri Janke Indigenous Lawyer and intellectual property expert Credits PresenterDamien Carrick

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CommentsProducerErica Vowles (116) Add your comment Solarn : 29 Jun 2010 8:47:43am I am listing to this issue, and wondering why the indigenous people think that they can stop everyone else from being part of their culture. The native Americans are bought to mind... we use lots of their imagery in our culture now, including dream catchers. This promotes the culture and the indigenous Australians should be out there promoting their culture to promote greater understanding instead of hiding it away from everyone else. I hope that people will see that this is my opinion and is not an attack at the indigenous people themselves. Reply Alert moderator Tim.Nash : 29 Jun 2010 1:06:03pm This is about keeping something sacred.

It's not about sharing, if it where then that culture would not be distinct to aboriginal people.

Now you can either attempt to preserve that, or plunder it.

Reply Alert moderator ntn001 : 29 Jun 2010 11:23:03pm Solarn, I don't think any Aboriginal person wants to lock away their culture. But, is it not their right to choose how it is shared? How it is represented and used? You want to use the imagery and cultural forms? Learn to understand them? Try and learn their meaning and the impact of sharing them beyond knowledge men and women.

When Anungu ask tourists to not climb Uluru sections of Australia are strident in their opposition and outrage that they want to lock up The Rock. When the Kamilaroi wanted the resting place of the ranbow serpant protected at Boobera Lagoon, the speedboat and skiing community were outraged. Yet, when we try to climb your cathedrals and Parliament House and Opera House, sections of the community are equally as outraged at our disrespectful behaviour. The hypocracy is palpable.

I must declare that I am a Dharug man (although I no longer live in Sydney). I recall my Grandmother being very distressed at another God being honoured in Dharug country. Nothing could be done, but it was distressing to her anyway.

Jenny Wright has stated it best when she said non-Indigenous Australians have taken everything and now you want to take our belief systems too. (Please note, it appears from this story that this is not being borrowed and used appropriately. It is being taken and appropriated for commercial reasons.) If you cannot understand Jenny's point then further explanation is a waste of valuable oxygen. Reply Alert moderator DF : 06 Jul 2010 3:33:59am I think Jenny Wright (or Wrong as the case may be) is another apologist. I assume from her comments that she is white herself. As she is paid by the organisation and doesnt work for free, does she feel that she is exploiting them in being paid ?

If as an earlier comment was made that these groups had no white contact until 70 years ago does the things she said - that we STOLE their language (they no longer speak it ??), we STOLE blah blah blah .. How did we steal it ?

Stealing implies that someone else saw some value in something and took it from them so that they could no longer use it. This is obviously a lie and Jenny the sanctamonious one should be the one who is ashamed.

It is like the picture on the website of the art organisation which shows the artists - they are wearing t-shirts and other white man's clothes - did they steal them ? Were they inspired to wear them as opposed to native clothes that they wore before having any white contact only 70 years ago ? No I don't think that they do. Suggesting that someone or a group have some sole right to tell someone else what they can believe in or be inspired by is more of the hand wringing rubbish that will never allow reconciliation.

It is like asking Aborigines to pay rent for being allowed access to a first world democracy instead of the less than third world that they had before the arrival of Cook. Reply Alert moderator recher :

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29 Jun 2010 8:56:01am Wandjina figures are not image(s) exclusive to Aboriginal spirituality.

Exactly the same are found in Amazonia.

The common link being the elixir of dream time: Dimethyltryptamine and allies. Reply Alert moderator carpedmt : 29 Jun 2010 4:10:54pm and curiously DMT is the active alkaloid in the leaves of certain acacia or "bush medicine" trees as they are known in the central desert, where painters in the utopia community depict "bush medicine dreaming" all is one... Reply Alert moderator jane : 29 Jun 2010 9:00:31am WANDJINA CONTROVERSY I'd be interested to hear Alison Page's (Inventors judge and public artist etc.) comments on this topic. Reply Alert moderator Daremo : 05 Jul 2010 5:59:53pm Why she is not Aboriginal is she? A few years ago she was claiming to be something else - how can this be?

Now she is a Tharawal woman, a Wodi Wodi woman.

Or is it because she is on the ABC? Reply Alert moderator jon elbourne : 29 Jun 2010 9:01:56am I would like to ask for all Namatjira weatern style paintings to be removed from art galleries everywhere as they offend my western traditional right to represtational art. As an atheist, do I not have the right to criticise aboriginal religion in the same way that I criticise western religions? If Tonedi is extracting money from people by exploiting aboriginal spirituality that too is deplorable. Reply Alert moderator Jenny H. : 06 Jul 2010 11:40:03am According to her website Vesna Tenodi is planning to make money form all of this as she has announced that 'products' will be available soon. Jon just because you and other non Aboriginal people have proclaimed your right to criticise Aboriginal religion does not mean that people have a right to steal from a culture that has specifically requested people leave their Wandjina image where it belongs -with them and in the Kimberly's - unless it is shared by consensus for reasons of unity and ceremony as we saw with the Olympics Reply Alert moderator Matthew : 29 Jun 2010 11:16:23am The case & the comments highlight the need for Australia to implement Article 31 of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples:

1. Indigenous peoples have the right to maintain, control, protect and develop their cultural heritage, traditional knowledge and traditional cultural expressions, as well as the manifestations of their sciences, technologies and cultures, including human and genetic resources, seeds, medicines, knowledge of the properties of fauna and flora, oral traditions, literatures, designs, sports and traditional games and visual and performing arts. They also have the right to maintain, control, protect and develop their intellectual property over such cultural heritage, traditional knowledge, and traditional cultural expressions.

2. In conjunction with indigenous peoples, States shall take effective measures to recognize and protect the exercise of these rights. Reply Alert moderator Tim.Nash : 29 Jun 2010 1:01:34pm As a graphic designer I had a good ponder about this subject.

I agree that Neolithic art and indigenous art should be accessible to artists, to draw inspiration from.

However I also agree that we should pay respects to the indigenous people and what meaning they have in the artwork.

When we take inspiration from a neolithic artwork from France, maybe we should consider how the the Koori today respond with horror when we use these images and pause for thought.

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These sacred images for aboriginal people are like images of Mohammad for Muslims, it isn’t illegal to use it…but it’s a simple case of sensitivity. Reply Alert moderator Marianne : 29 Jun 2010 8:29:14pm What a very eurocentritc, disrespectiful woman Tenodi is. No wonder the Aboriginal people of Katoomba and the owners of the Wandjina are so angry - she represents everything that is dominating and distasteful about the european invasion into Aboriginal society.

Those universal laws Tenodi talks about will not exclude her appalling behaviour, that is for sure! Reply Alert moderator Jelena : 02 Jul 2010 2:34:10am "the owners of the Wandjina"?!?! Does that mean that Vesna and "her" people are the owners of Jesus? Reply Alert moderator Mick Hedges : 06 Jul 2010 1:54:04am Fair dinkum Jelena you show complete arrogance and ignorance when it comes to understanding the complexities of the sacred imagery and song-lines that cover this Dreamtime country. You mention elsewhere that your are Croatian and I suggest to you that you get yourself educated and show respect for the traditional owners of this country you obviously don't understand or respect. Bottom line is things are done differently in this country, they were for thousands and thousands of years and it is the very attitude and behavior of people like you and Vesna that have brought such grief and misery upon the first nation people of this country. Think about it! Why else is there so much anger from Australians, Aboriginal and non Aboriginal about what Vesna Tenodi is doing in this latest round of cultural theft and misappropriation? Reply Alert moderator Katina : 30 Jun 2010 8:29:43am I am a member of the Worora language group which is one of the three groups in the Kimberley which have the Wandjina as their dreaming.

I think the comparisons with prehistoric art in Europe are ludicrous. The first contact with Europeans for our peoples happened in the last 70 years. The religious meaning and symbolism of the Wandjina is fresh and clear and current for us.

This is an extremely sacred image and we find it highly offensive when it is used by unauthorised people. It does cause us distress. This image is part of us and we are supposed to protect it. I was close to tears when I heard this on the radio. Reply Alert moderator Mick Hedges : 06 Jul 2010 2:05:53am Katina I am very sorry your mob have been treated so poorly and that you have had your law and culture disrespected his way.

I pay my respect to your Elders and I am appalled that this kind of ignorance and refusal to listen can still go on in these times. Make me ashamed to be a white fella! I recognise the Wandjina as sacred to you and that it belongs in the Kimberly region and know that there is a bigger law that than the man made ones that allow for this kind of carry on. Reply Alert moderator Nandi : 30 Jun 2010 12:56:00pm Vesna Tenodi's psuedo spirituality shows her ignorance of the country in which she lives. Why did she not consult local Aboriginal people about the dreaming symbols of the Blue Mountains area? To take the Wandjina out of the Kimberley is wrong. Its all very well to say we should all share our spiritual values but until Australian Aborigines have a fair share of the wealth, health of the country that they traditionally own, actions like Tenodi's only serve to perpetuate 200 years of theft, violence and repression.Vesna take the statue down and educate yourself rather than assuming that a little bit of this and a little bit of that makes a spiritual life. Reply Alert moderator DF : 06 Jul 2010 3:22:20am Nandi ..

Off your soapbox before you break it.

What a joke .. so any Australian that is not a catholic or Anglican is engaging in psuedo spirituality ?

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Tell all the Muslims and Budhists etc that are in Australia that you deem them to be psuedo spiritual people .. what ignorance from some of the comments on this blog.

Glad I don't bother listening to this program usually .. what a waste of time seeing the comments some clowns make. Reply Alert moderator spud : 30 Jun 2010 1:14:12pm thanks to the law report for bringing this issue to us all. This lady is exploiting the indigineous people of Australia for her own benefit. May i suggest someone in her area buys a tarp or tarps and covers this thing up. Plant a sheoak in front of it. Local government, or even the Federal or NSW should step in here and tell this person to remove what is offensive to so many people!!!!! Reply Alert moderator Peter : 30 Jun 2010 5:39:33pm These words spoken by Vesna Tenodi sums it all up:

"There is no copyright on prehistoric imagery, and no-one can prohibit any artist to explore the design, or to express themselves or to be influenced or inspired, and this happens all the time."

Contrary to what your alleged communications with the sacred beings back by white mans laws are telling you are telling you, Aboriginal Culture is a living culture it is not prehistoric and your offending behavior is relevant to today in the here and now.

To assume that because Europeans have made up these rules about stealing symbols and have an artists narcissistic right to explore what had been created by others in a deeply sacred context and to EXPLOIT that and that somehow makes the Aboriginal people unreasonable is a classic example of how European ignorance and arrogance and self appointed authority continues to cause great distress to the people who you allege you are seeking to represent. The invasion into Aboriginal culture continues on relentlessly.

What terrible conduct form someone who does not even have her roots in the country she has stolen the image from.

I am deeply sorry that such arrogant ignorance continues without apology and as a non-Aboriginal Australian would like our Black brothers and sisters to know that there are many of us who condemn this disrespectful woman's conduct. Reply Alert moderator Daremo : 05 Jul 2010 5:50:22pm I am deeply sorry for your racist comments about the gallery owner's heritage. I am not Croatian, but I have all of my Croatian brothers and sisters can see it in their hearts to forgive your racist comments.

I am also sorry that you are so naive and gullible. Reply Alert moderator DF : 06 Jul 2010 3:19:10am Peter I think your arrogant ignorance is the disrespectful conduct. Apologise for yourself .. not others who you do not represent. Reply Alert moderator michael : 30 Jun 2010 6:48:51pm Might be worth pointing out that Vesna Tenodi's claim that she "did make numerous attempts to reach them and to obtain their co-operation and I kept advising them as a matter of courtesy and hoping for their participation" isn't consistent with her explanation last March (from http://www.treatyrepublic.net/content/kimberley-sacred-wandjina-symbol-misused-warning-blatantly-ignored ) ======Asked if she had sought permission to use the image, Tenodi says she did not need to. "It was actually the other way around - the spirits asked me to do this. They asked me to revive the tradition which has turned into dead knowledge, and I agreed." ======

She also says she has "been selected to 'revive the spirituality from which the so-called Aboriginal elders have become so disconnected'."

How she thinks she can respect the culture while heaping such contempt upon the people is beyond me. Reply Alert moderator Micah : 01 Jul 2010 11:07:06am I wonder how Vesna and her husband would appreciate non-Croatians (particularly other Slavic peoples) investigating and depicting Croatian art and culture, whether modern, indigenous, or ancient? She and most other Croatians would undoubtedly take large offense!

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Reply Alert moderator Jelena : 02 Jul 2010 2:56:37am Does that mean that we, the Croats, should prohibit everyone else from using a tie because we invented the cravat in 16th century? Reply Alert moderator Mendonca : 02 Jul 2010 12:51:42pm Yes especially if they are parasitizing for greed and are ready to falsify requests. And especially about cravats of all things. You go from the spiritual to the mundane shame on you. Mendonca Reply Alert moderator Yowie : 01 Jul 2010 3:15:05pm "Piss Christ" was insensitive and offended many Christians. The depiction of Muhummad in a cartoon was insensitive and offended many Muslims. The denial of the holocaust by some is insensitive and offends many Jews. And a depiction of Wanjina is insensitive offends some Aboriginals.

Equal treatment for all.

To protect Aboriginal people from offense by dictating what others can and cannot do with symbols that originated in their culture without extending this protection to all other groups with sacred symbols just because they happen to be Aboriginal is simply racist.

The best way to protect thse symbols is to educate people to their meaning and cultural significance, not banning the use, or copyright, or death threats or fatwas. If people have a better understanding of their context, meaning and significance, then they are less likely to use them inappropriately. Reply Alert moderator Vera Green : 01 Jul 2010 4:31:37pm re ""did make numerous attempts to reach them and to obtain their co-operation"

That statement alone is saturated in assumptions. If Ms Tenodi knew anything about traditional culture and protocols she would know that it is not her place to assume the law keepers would (a) deem her significant enough to discuss sacred matters and (b) be prepared to even consider such a preposterous misappropriation from a stranger form another part of the world in a part of the country that is not connected to the Wandjina.

I am deeply ashamed that a non Aboriginal person who was born else where, is conducting herself in such a manner and regardless of her academic qualifications can see she is driven by self interest and ignorance, not lest of all because her website announces 'products' will be available soon. Shame on you Vena Tendi. Revoking your citizenship would not even begin to repair the damage you have done and the traditional laws you have broken. Reply Alert moderator Daremo : 05 Jul 2010 5:48:18pm Are you for real? Revoking citizenship for upsetting a group of people who lay claim to the image, but offer nothing more than their say so - pa lease.

If you want to be angry about something, get angry about the billions spent on the Aboriginal community, and they still live in squalor.

Will you revoke the citizenship of everyone who has commented and discussed the joys of Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Islam etc. Will you kick all of the non-Asians out of the Buddhist temples? I think not.

Slow down, take a breath, and realise you are being used! Reply Alert moderator Mick Hedges : 07 Jul 2010 1:14:02pm I reckon the ones being used are the media by Vesna Tenodi to promote her hallucinations that she is communicating with a mob called Those Who Know after stealing the image from those who REALLY know.

Mate, if you think the Aboriginal people 'lay claim to an image but offer nothing more than their say so', youre as ignorant as the woman who is under the delusion she has had some kind of mystical calling from the spirit world. Take a trip up to Wandjina country for starters, ask permission to speak with the custodians up there and get an education about the country you are living in instead of sitting on your computer talking like a drongo. You mention billions of dollars being spent but believe me, and I am One Who Knows, money will never be a substitute for what is really needed

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in this country to fix this mess. Greed was the cause and money won't be the answer . Reply Alert moderator Liam : 01 Jul 2010 10:15:20pm I'm sure this has been canvassed by someone else with a legal background, but is there no way that a community owned "entity" can be established in order for it to own the intellectual property that is being contested here?

And for stories... Given that languages all over the world are under threat, wouldn't a worthy publicly-funded project be for a similar entity to write down these stories and protect its copyright?

As for Vesna and her "I'm not a spiritual centre" housed sculpture, I hope the Blue Mountains council does to it what it did to Che & the Beastie Boys - rub it out.

Reply Alert moderator Jelena : 02 Jul 2010 3:08:45am I've read the book Dreamtime Set in Stone by Vesna Tenodi (and most of you commentators obviously haven't), and I found it delightful! I admire that lady's courage and integrity, and I was distressed to see what some people say about her, obviously those Who-Do-Not-Know. Everything I've learned by reading that book and by studying Aboriginal culture is compatible with my own experiences and personal views. I am also very aware it must be extremely difficult to pass such knowledge on to other people, and such attempts are usually met with hostility and resistance. I believe that's the reason why the Those-Who-Know often stay silent. But this lady speaks up on Their behalf and I think we should all be grateful to her for daring to go against the current trend. It's hard to understand that Vesna's projects and artists who created such amazing artwork, showing so much love, can be so viciously attacked and met with such hate. People don't understand that she is not in it for the money or fame. I can only hope that people will start thinking for themselves, understand the message, and quit the abuse. Reply Alert moderator Jeremy : 02 Jul 2010 12:32:05pm I am going to assume you are a non-Aboriginal person who found the book 'delightful" Jelena? Your name suggests you may come from the same cultural group as the author.

Vesna Tenodi has made some abhorrent statements of 'fact' in her view that Aboriginal people have lost their culture, whilst right across Australia the law men and women continue their work and sacred ceremonies. Just because people don't hear about what happens does not mean it is lost for goodness sake!!

For a European woman to come here and write about people she has no relationship with and to offend them deeply by stealing one of their sacred images that belongs in a specific part of the country is unspeakable.

Far from 'delightful' I can assure you that this fallacious group of "Those Who Know" are the psychobabble of a non Aboriginal woman who has delegated herself as an authority on things she has no knowledge of.

There is a move to have this book removed from all libraries in the country based on the lies and untruths being told in its pages. Reply Alert moderator Phoenix : 05 Jul 2010 8:28:54pm mmm Jeremy... sounds very anglo to me. Reply Alert moderator Bob : 06 Jul 2010 10:18:31am You really don't understand the concept of freedom of speech, do you. What other books do you want banned? Reply Alert moderator Charlotte : 02 Jul 2010 12:36:41pm I borrowed the book from my library Jelena , got half way through the first chapter and realised it is another Mutant Messengers Down Under type book written by a non Aboriginal person proclaiming knowledge and insights that are highly offensive.

It is a terrible book, poorly written and very offensive to members of our local Aboriginal community. Reply Alert moderator Margo : 17 Jul 2010 2:49:20pm Jelena you are saying this woman was asked to speak up on behalf of an invisible group called Those Who Know when the visible, though very low profile, custodians and creators of the image, those who DO know are ignored, stolen from, and discredited by Vesna Tenodi!! and you think she is an admirable woman???

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This is despicable. There is no other way to say it and along with her atrocious book that exploits an Aboriginal man who has had a very troubled life and was excluded from his right to have traditional law and culture is beyond belief. Now she is starting to sell stuff on her web site??? Shame on her and her supporters who continue to steal this sacred Being from where it has always belonged!!! Reply Alert moderator Margo : 17 Jul 2010 2:58:40pm PS Margo your self validating statement that you have been "studying" Aboriginal culture from an outsiders, european view point is akin to saying you know how to build a plane and fly it because you saw one go over head once.

Getting even close to understanding such a sophisticated, cosmologically advanced culture takes years for an Aboriginal child through to adult hood to learn so your proclamation of 'studying' Aboriginal culture has about as much merit as Vesna Tenodi writing a book about people she has no authority to comment on. Reply Alert moderator Rose Nooteboom : 02 Jul 2010 3:14:10am thoughts that came to mind in point form:

-Neolithic art is European, therefore whites have their own prehistoric culture to draw from ( use our own!). It has not been our belief or culture for thousands of years therefore there are no current guardians to consult or offend.

- If Vesna was so eager to show respect to Aboriginal people and tradition , why did she not pay attention to their need for respect. If she couldn't get hold of the Kimberley people themselves there are 'white' organisations who could have set her straight ( World Vision for instance)

- "They asked me to revive the tradition which has turned into dead knowledge, and I agreed.", Presumably because the tradition has never died and is in no need of revival those who have been talking to her must be imposters... perhaps she ought to review her practice.

- Picasso and other modernists were inspired by African art, and made something new: cubist art. The impressionists were inspired by Japanese Art and made something new with it: Impressionism. Influence and inspiration result in something new, not something copied or stolen. None of these artists copied an 'influence' and pawned it off as their own 'expression'.

-So what if the Wandjina were used in the Olympics. It was with permission and should be considered a blessing and a gift to the world by the Kimberly people and a privilege, not an excuse to take it and use it indiscriminately. Reply Alert moderator Rose Nooteboom : 02 Jul 2010 1:46:49pm "What terrible conduct from someone who does not even have her roots in the country she has stolen the image from." "from a stranger from another part of the world in a part of the country that is not connected to the Wandjina." ( Peter)

"I am deeply ashamed that a non Aboriginal person who was born else where, is conducting herself in such a manner" "Revoking your citizenship would not even begin to repair the damage you have done and the traditional laws you have broken."(Vera Green)

No matter how much I disagree with and depise her and the artist's choices, Vesna's choices have nothing to do with her being a new immigrant and they are in no way to be used as an excuse to indulge in the ignorance of racism and xenophobia.

What arrogance.What denial. Some Australians who are born here, and perhaps from families who have been here for a few generations have enough to answer for in their maltreatment of Aboriginal people. Reply Alert moderator Mick Hedges : 06 Jul 2010 1:39:03am Well I am with Peter and Vera! When Aboriginal Australia was invaded back in 1788 it was the European attitude of 'whats yours is mine and I'll take it as I please" that created so much of this on going mess.

Vesna Tenodi is doing exactly the same thing and as far as I am concerned her stealing of sacred imagery is not welcome in this country. Nothing to do with xenophobia, just a fact that someone born on the other side of the word has come to this country and unapologetically stolen what is not hers. i don't care where she is from! Her behaviour is shameful.

Just because Australians also act like a mob of idiots when it comes to respecting Aboriginal rights doesn't mean it is okay for someone who was born elsewhere but has arrived with the view that she has the right to speak for the ancient inhabitants and steal their art work to boot,to do the same!

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I think her attitude has a lot to do with believing in the superiority of Europeans over Aborigines and thats why she has taken what is not hers, is getting ready to make products to sell (check out her web page),has announced a Wandjina 'competition' to encourage others to make parodies of the image as she has done. It's an outrage!! and this woman has done zilch to contribute to her new country in a respectful way. Reply Alert moderator Daremo : 05 Jul 2010 5:40:30pm Well, I just love the comments and vitriol against one person.

A couple of questions:

Why is equality and equal opportunity always not? Why can't she build one of these statues/idols? Where is the empirical evidence that this 'idol' actually belongs to anyone? How do we know it is not just made up like the Welcome to Country ceremonies? Why is this not racism? Why can we not accept that this image is a homage as suggested by the gallery owner?

I know why, because she is white, a Croatian (as if this is a crime) and this politically correct anti-white society - her existence appears to be an offence. Grow up people and get over yourselves. Reply Alert moderator James : 05 Jul 2010 7:21:59pm I'm waiting for the punchline... where's the gag becuase you people couldn't possibly be serious? Scratch a 'progressive' & you'll find a fascist.

Let's be clear. No 'culture' or race has a monopoly on expression or art. The rancid & racist remarks listed here by the self appointed culture police is beyond contempt. Hypocrites Reply Alert moderator Jenny H. : 06 Jul 2010 5:53:45pm Re: " Let's be clear. No 'culture' or race has a monopoly on expression or art."

Because white men say so James? What you are putting forward as 'fact' is simply a 'rule' made up by people who invade others cultures, steal their ceremonial objects and symbols and then tell the victim of the greed that THEY are the ones with a problem.

How about we all come round to your house, take whatever we want that is yours, we'll start with all of the precious things related to your family and then we'll create an image of you,use it for what ever we want in what ever way we reckon and if you complain, we'll make sure to tell you you are being unreasonable.

Sounds like a fair idea based on your hypothesis. Reply Alert moderator Amadeo : 05 Jul 2010 9:28:16pm In January this year I've managed to read Mrs. Tenodi's book "Dreamtime - Set in Stone". By reading your posts here, it’s (unfortunately) clear to see that very few of you have bothered with reading of this ‘notorious’ book.

Contrary to most impressions stated here, I've found the book (and DreamRaisers project) very interesting, it mainly speaks about personal- intimate confession of certain authentic-indigenous Aboriginal person. His story is too sad to be told. Most of the people after such horrifying experiences shuts down, collapse into shame, resignation, anger, hate …

What's interesting/new here you might ask, is the fact that this 'dude' had managed to break out from the chains of pain, and his beautiful and powerful message has been brought/shared with the rest of us through this brave and inspiring book. It takes enormous amount of courage to make such public statement, which reflects author's internal spiritual perspective, the nobility of the soul's intentions and the true manifestation of the Dreamtime … if you like.

I understood that DreamRaisers project invites/challenges Australian indigenous people to dare to undertake such reconciliation efforts, instead of taking constant excuses founded upon white-man's violence that hit them in the past so hard. Aboriginals are not the only people that experienced Calvary – sophisticated savagery of western 'civilizations'. DreamRaisers is definitely not about moneymaking as some posts here presume; it represents noble initiative which regards Aborigines as very precious, very precious to the whole world.

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We can say how every true/genuine/noble idea or act that was brought into this world throughout history, was met with hostility, dispute, resistance etc by the connoisseurs, authorities and those which were supposed to welcome it and give thanks for it … why should it be nowadays any different??? Reply Alert moderator Jenny H. : 06 Jul 2010 12:50:07pm If you researched further you would know that the 'dude' you refer to was one of the main instigators of the protest against the mimicked Wandjina on the opening day and no longer supports Vesna Tenodis work, as he has listened to the impact it has had on his community.

All facts that can be found by reading the articles across the net that have been written since the book was released. A very eurocentric book that I found appalling by the way.

To compare this cultural theft to 'noble ideas' that have met opposition is romanticism at its best and disrespect for what the traditional creators of the image have requested. I am assuming you are not an Aboriginal person based on your bias. Reply Alert moderator Amadeo : 06 Jul 2010 6:42:11pm Dear Jenny you guess right, I'm not Aboriginal person, and I've read articles about Mr.Goomblar related events that followed. Yes exactly 'romanticism at its best' is something what is missing in this sea of hatred. I regard Dreamtime situation nowadays as somewhat similar to early Christian centuries, when young church adopted philosophy and developed scholastics … Aboriginals should accept the need to articulate/defend/manifest/communicate and spread Dreamtime message … and that’s the DreamRaisers message. Reply Alert moderator Jenny H. : 07 Jul 2010 12:53:54pm "Aboriginals should accept the need to articulate /defend /manifest/ spread the Dreamtime message"...

SHOULD? Why? Because white people say they should? I spend a great deal of my time with traditional Elders and completely understand the wariness of sharing sacred knowledge and ancient Dreamtime stories to people who have ripped and torn the land, created appalling pollution on their once pristine country and continue to steal from their culture in the way Vesna Tenodi is doing.

Like me, you are an outsider to Aboriginal customary law and culture, with no relationships or understanding of the highly complex systems that kept all things in balance for so many years.

You would do well Amadeo to step down from your assumptions regarding what "THEY should" do and ask yourself why Aboriginal people have responded as they have, rather than just assume THEY need to do things differently.

Romanticism of Indigenous cultures and their profound knowledge and cosmology serves no purpose other than to maintain the ridiculous notion that white people somehow have the god-given right to comment on who they are and what their culture means when in fact the invasion into Aboriginal culture has always been solely about greed, theft and stealing of their rights. Wandjina theft a perfect example.

Most australians have not yet had 'first contact' with Aboriginal people and it is my experience that wen they do experience a traditional environment and begin to develop relationships based on mutual respect and recognition (napartji-napartji) comments like "they should" and "they need to" disappear back to the place of euro-centric arrogance from whence they came. Reply Alert moderator Anon : 09 Jul 2010 1:48:16pm I know the "dude" you are speaking of & he was not aware his words would be published in a book when telling his story to Vesna. Reply Alert moderator phillip : 22 Jul 2010 6:06:52pm Yes I get the impression that not everyone has read the book in question.Ive read the book as well and what I remember was mostly an account via the interview process of one Aboriginal mans troublesome experience growing up in institutions and a brave rebirth from that experience. He sounded intelligent and articulate and I thought his story was insprirational.I thought that Vesna Tenodi was instrumental in sharing his positive message and that her motives were to promote Culture. Reply Alert moderator Jenny H : 23 Jul 2010 11:38:54am The book has been rejected by the Aboriginal Community of the Blue Mountains and right across Australia Phillip and by Goomblar . Vesa chose a troubled man with a troubled past to be the voice of HER beleif that Aboriginal people have lost their Dreaming. It is a huge insult to spread that view and as most my life is spent with Aboriginal people I can tell you frankly it is an utter lie and racist gereralisation based on one relationship she fostered in order to write this book and now start to sell products on her web site.

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. The poster Debbi summed it up by saying plenty of white people have lost their way but you don't see Aborigines lines up to 'save them'.

Don't worry about what a Croation woman with no authority and who is currently under under scrutiny is telling you about the Dreamtime, go out and make new friendships and relationships with the victims of this appalling eurocentric theft of culture. Then you may really learn what the Elders are saying and why they are appalled by this theft of the Wandjina...but be mindful...trusting relationships take years to build because Aboriginal Australia is an occupied nation. This is not histrionics simply facts. It was a bloody invasion and it is early days of the recovery and restoration of justice. Tenodi is only adding to the damage as a white woman who believes she needs to save Aboriginal people with no understanding of customary law or protocols.

Tell me Phillip if you had some family members living troubled lives for whatever reason would you want it to be told to the world that ALL white people have lost their way? Of course not! Why should Aboriginal people be burdened with such a racist stereotype as 'lost' and 'disconnected'. Not the ones I know!

Reply Alert moderator Imelda Almqvist : 08 Jul 2010 11:18:52pm I am a painter and shamanic practitioner based in London, UK.

Friends have brought Vesna's project to my attention and made me aware of the debate raging around it in Australia.

I would like to give my personal perspective here as a painter and urban shaman.

My observation is that all over the world indigenous leaders and shamans are starting to share sacred information that used to be secret. This is all part of our world entering a new era of greater spiritual awareness.

My feeling was is that the Wandjina controversy is part of a greater process of spirit beings being brought to a wider audience, inviting more people to connect with sacred ancient teachings of the Dreamtime and the Spirit World.

My intensive shamanic training teaches me that knowledge or indeed inspiration isn't a "static dead thing": it is living breathing evolving energy. People engaging with ancient sacred concepts breathes life into those concepts and sends them out in the world reborn... It is a very great honour really.

It is my hope that the Indigenous Peoples of Australia will see that the time has come for the rest of the world to become receptive to the wisdom and teachings of the Dreamtime. Let's face it: the mindset of industrial Western society has brought our planet to her knees. Our world is in urgent need of spiritual perspectives that have stood the test of time.

Imelda Almqvist

(Shamanic painter and shamanic practitioner)

Reply Alert moderator Mick Hedges : 13 Jul 2010 11:57:58am I have had a look at your web page Imelda and am wondering if you have heard anything that the Wandjina custodians are saying?

You have a painting of a so-called Wandjina with a mouth on it on your page. Wrong!

How can you expect Aboriginal people to share their knowledge when they are not listened to regarding their sacred imagery. Imagery that was not tainted, graffitied or stolen for thousands of years until Europeans came along with the belief that "I am entitled to create that too in whatever way I think is okay"?

I suggest you remove those paintings from your site if you are serious about respecting Aboriginal people and what they are saying. Reply Alert moderator Jenny H : 14 Jul 2010 12:49:22pm I had a look too Mick and I agree that this is another example of how even the best intended westerners who acknowledge that Aboriginal people are the ones with the ansers this sorry world need, are still not hearing what is being said.

No replicating Wandjinas. No mouths on the Wandjinas. No removing them from their country.

When people are interpreting the refusal to 'share' specific cultural knowledge and its practices or not accepting that art and cultural imagery is open slather for anyone and everyone as a flaw in Aboriginal people and non-compliance with the western mind set, they miss the very point

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that it was precisely because of these carefully balanced rites, images, ceremonial practices etc that kept things so well and in balance for thousands of years.

Imeldas words and her copying the images is a perfect example of 'we know you Aborigines have great knowledge and things we need but you are going to have to do it our way and by our rules if you share things with us becuase I have the right to copy your sacred being! And one of our rules is 'just because you created it and sang it in to existence doesn't mean you own it or that it belongs in a specific area for a specific reason.'

To quote Mick Hedges WRONG!

If you want to demonstrate your advanced insight as an urban shaman Imelda you would be wise to remove those images from your page and seek to establish a relationship with the people of the Kimberly Region as a starting point for your quest for the lawmen and women to share their highly sacred knowledge as to WHY the Wandjina must remain where it has been for thousands of years and ignore the postulations of a Croatian-Australian woman who had offended the very people she alleges she is hear to speak for.

This is the next round of invasion into Aboriginal Australia and the elders see it exactly as that. Make no mistake about that one! Reply Alert moderator Imelda Almqvist : 08 Jul 2010 11:33:51pm I am a painter and shamanic practitioner based in London, UK.

Friends have brought Vesna’s project to my attention and made me aware of the debate raging in Australia.

I would like to post my personal perspective here:

My observation as an artist and shamanic practitioner is that all over the world indigenous leaders and shamans are starting to share sacred information that used to be secret. This is all part of our world entering a new era of greater spiritual awareness. My feeling is that the Wandjina controversy is part of a greater process of The Dreamtime being brought to a wider audience, inviting more people to connect with sacred ancient teachings and the world of spirit. Knowledge and inspiration isn’t a static dead thing: it is living breathing evolving energy. People engaging with ancient sacred concepts breathes life into those concepts and sends them out in the world reborn... It is a very great honour.

I hope that the indigenous peoples of Australia will see that maybe the time has come to share the ancient teachings and wisdom of the Dreamtime. After all: the teachings and knowledge of industrialised Western society have brought our beautiful planet to her knees. Western people live in a culture that has lost its soul and its spiritual underpinnings. Maybe it is time to embrace the ancient sacred teachings of the Dreamtime, the Wanjinas and other Spirit Beings. This may just save our planet from self-destruction.

Imelda Almqvist Reply Alert moderator Mick Hedges : 13 Jul 2010 10:23:53am Whilst you might be hoping that the Indigenous people will step in and clean up this mess Imelda I can tell you that it is not going to happen when there are people like Vesna Tenodi stealing Aboriginal imagery, taking it from the part of the country where it ceremonially belongs, ignoring the requests of the elders and adding fuel to the fire she has started by making up a Wandjina competition, a song and promising products are on the way.

You have to spend time with the traditional mob to understand why they do not want their culture exploited in the way that this european woman is doing so there is buckleys chance of it being shared wider because people like her have done too much damage already.

You might have observed that all over the world indigenous people are sharing their knowledge Imelda but to assume that they SHOULD when in this country the shameful treatment of elders continues with things like the N.T Intervention is just idealism.

There are still issues of stolen wages,stolen bones of the ancestors sitting in museums across this country, stolen land being raped and pillaged and now some goose with a delusion she has been chosen by the spirits to steal the Wandjina from the Kimberly region to be resolved before the elders SHOULD do anything even remotely connected to sharing their ancient, sacred wisdom of this used and abused country.

And that other bloke on the page who said the 'dude did not know Vesna would be exploiting him like she has is spot on thats why he was one of the most vocal of the protestors at the launch of her fake Wandjina opening. Don't worry about the invisible "Those Who know " mob. There are enough of us you can see and hear who REALLY know what is going on with Vesnas plans to sell products from her store, like she has stated on her webpage and thus make money from her cultural theft. Reply Alert moderator

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Amadeo : 16 Jul 2010 12:58:20am I understood that no one is expecting from indigenous people to ‘clean up this mess’, but more likely to show the way, to set directives and reevaluate true priorities and goals. I regard this as a truly great honor and act of trust that was appointed to Aboriginals by Those-Who-Know … As Ms. Imelda put it, throughout last century many existing cultural traditions had opened their sacred gates of mystery teachings, obviously recognizing the significance of the present momentum in world history. Many of them suffered great torments and catastrophes which spanned sometimes over entire nations. But their doom and unfortunate circumstances didn’t get in the way of ‘their Dreamtime perspective’. Those-Who-Know had announced core arguments why DreamRaisers is formulated and manifested by Ms. Tenodi in such shocking and very disturbing way. There’s not much time left for ‘the elders … to do anything even remotely connected to sharing …’ The vulgar insults and constant repetition of ‘stealing/theft’ formulas, from one post to another, keep reaffirming what Those-Who-Know observed: these people have lost link to their Dreamtime. I see huge amount of hatred and resentment accumulated within these posts, which are major head blocker to reconciliation, opening and reconnecting to the Dreamtime once again. In addition spiritual: hypocrisy and vanity and pride and arrogance are more than obvious. Few days ago I’ve put some simple melody to Ms. Tenodi’s song “Wandjina’s Call” and we’ve published it for the NAIDOC week purposes. There’s no profit making marketing there at all, it is simple-sincere reconciliation call to Aboriginal people. I know Vesna & Damir Tenodi for more than 10 years now, and I’m well acquainted with their motives, actions and in particular with literary and publishing endeavors (more than 10 titles). In 1990 they’ve published brochure with seven essays, with one entitled “The Sun Eclipsed” which saluted/glorified the importance of one particular tradition which still deserved to be called Culture - the Dreamtime (the only existing true Culture of Australia). But back then the only reaction was attack and mocking, mainly coming from ‘white-people’... which nowadays after twenty years matured a bit and started to be caring & loving neighbors? Mr. Mick I’d suggest that you hold your manners or I’ll be forced to alert moderator of LawReport to expel your poison from this page … Regards Reply Alert moderator Mick Hedges : 16 Jul 2010 1:37:07pm Amadeo if you are feeling a bit miffed because I challenge a woman who says she is communicating with invisible entities who are telling her to steal images from the custodians of this country, when they have said DON"T!...a woman who is ignoring what the Elders are saying, who is wanting to make money by selling products from her webpage and who has further added to the insult of the traditional owners by creating a competition of these stolen images, I think you might have your priorities wrong mate!

Not only has Aboriginal Australia had their land, language, children, human rights and culture stolen from them as mentioned in other posts on this page, now you are insisting that some invisible mob called those who know are running the show for the changes needed.

This is, as we say in my part of the word...a load of crock!

I am embarrassed that people like you and Vesna Tenodi think it is okay to ignore the living breathing custodians, the Elders and descendants of the and their knowledge and authority and listen to the psychobabble of a woman who is being told very clearly STOP.

As for the caring and loving neighbours and how enlightened we are twenty years down the track, you would do well to educate yourself about the fabrications that were made in these times were are in now in order to take the military into remote communities and enforce the Intervention and how many respected law men and women, elders and highly regarded people, are now back living on income control and vouchers for their tucker like they were in the 1930's.

And lastly let me tell you, because it is obvious you are not in relationship with Aboriginal people in any way shape or form and have not had the privilege of sitting in the ceremonial or traditional cultural space -people have NOT lost their connection to the Dreamtime, the knowledge is carefully guarded because of the very kind of theft of imagery and disregarded for the Elders that this debacle has revealed.Since the invasion of 1788 and the shocking impact on Aboriginal people much of the healing and recovery goes on beyond what non-Aboriginal people will ever see or the media would even have a clue about.

If Vesna and her husband are so highly regarded, where are the hundreds of Aboriginal people from across Australia who support them - what a goose of an illusion people are under when they try to justify this cultural theft and invasion into sacred Wandjina territory as directives from ghosts by a woman who has no ancestral relationship to the very image she has stolen and continues to flaunt.

I am thinking of reporting you to the moderators too Amadeo for trying to pass on hallucinations and grandiose illusions that a non-Aboriginal person is authorised to tell the Aboriginal Elders what they MUST do with THEIR Wandjina.! Appalling behaviour!

From One Who Knows I'd like to suggest that rather than add a melody t Reply Alert moderator Jenny H : 16 Jul 2010 2:32:14pm "I understood that no one is expecting from indigenous people to "clean up this mess", but more likely to show the way, to set directives and

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reevaluate true priorities and goals."

The directive has been set Amadeo -remove the false Wandjina image from Katoomba.

It is very simple.

Unfortunately because the woman involved did not like the directive and people like you who support her, the directive you speak of has been ignored.

Same old story when it comes to Aboriginal people being heard and acknowledgesd as an authority.

I think what you meant to say Amadeo is something like "I understood that no one is expecting from indigenous people to "clean up this mess", but more likely to show the way, to set directives and reevaluate true priorities and goals and so long as we agree with what they are saying and exercise our entitlement to dominate their view, we might listen". Reply Alert moderator Jeremy : 17 Jul 2010 1:47:34pm "Appointed to Aboriginals" Amadeo? By "Those Who Know"? Rubbish! What a waffly load of new age bunkum that one is!

I am beginning to wonder if the Tenodis and the people are following them are not all some part of new age cult that has given itself the delusion that invisible spirits are authorising them to steal from the custodians of the Wandjina in some kind of twisted plot that leaves the Da Vinci Code looking like an Enid Blyton book.

Let me guess the title of your song Amadeo:

"We'll steal your art work and then sing you a song about how much we care for you & admired you all along " The chorus goes:

"But don't you try try try to tell us we are wrong because we will steal your Wandjina and then sing you this little song"

Reply Alert moderator lachlanr : 16 Jul 2010 12:04:24pm FYI, Marky Mark is Mark Wahlberg's rapper name from his time with Marky Mark & the Funky Bunch; he is not in the Beastie Boys.

I thought it important to correct that misconception. Reply Alert moderator Amadeo : 19 Jul 2010 5:25:04pm It seems that Goomblar is the only genuine Aborigine in all this drama. I believe he is (or was) a proud man with great courage, who wanted to help his people rise from their misery, a true rolemodel, exactly as Vesna described him in the book. That's why the Those-Who-Know chose him, as Vesna said, for his pure heart, so I'd rather read his words again than all the hateful comments by irrational people who cannot see that, throughout history, there is always an outsider sent to set things right. At first, I thought some people are just angry, and they can be reasoned with, but I was obviously wrong. Their vision is so obscured by anger and hate, that they are trying to envelop everyone in their own negative energy. I think I'll sign off now and go back to listening to that audio and Damien Carrick again, he sounds like a great voice of reason. Reply Alert moderator Mick Hedges : 21 Jul 2010 1:17:23pm Goomblar is a victim of the terrible events that began in 1788. He is not a voice for the traditional men and woman who represent hundreds of different Aboriginal nations in this country each with their own unique ceremonial practices, song lines and interconnected processes that existed long before the Tenodis stole one of the significant Spirit beings of the Kimberly region.

He has let the public know how he feels about Vesna exploiting his trust by writing that sham Dreamtime book. That is why he lead the protest that day and has disowned her completely.

Simple facts and if you look past your loyalty to a cultural vandal, a woman who is being directed by the ghosts no one can see, says they are Those Who Know and is ignoring the audible voice of those who DO know, you might start to HEAR what the OWNERS of the Wandjina are saying.

But I doubt it. You have an agenda to exploit the Wandjina, sell it to people overseas in song and with ridiculous, offensive Wanjina art competitions and then write ridiculous songs about how much you love Aboriginal people.

Jokers like you make me laugh Amadeo. You take part in yet another theft of some thing highly sacred that doesn't belong to to you, you talk

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about ridiculous romantic notions of Aboriginal people that further diminishes the credibility of the law men and women then you sit on your high horse telling people off for being angry about this theft and violation of Aboriginal law. Drongo! I think you and Yellena need to be taken out bush with the Lawmen and taught what Respect is really all about! Reply Alert moderator Jelena : 20 Jul 2010 11:53:31pm It is quite remarkable that people whose entire tradition is based on spirits and Dreamtime entities should show so little faith in the power of Wanjinas and declare Vesna nuts for answering Wanjinas' call. That's just another proof they are indeed completely disconnected from their tradition, just as Goomblar Wylo confirmed. I'd rather listen to the gentle philosophy of the Those-Who-Know than to ranting of some angry mob. Besides, I don't think anything anyone might say can change the mind of those who are so steeped in anger and hate. Once you clense your heart, perhaps there will be room for a constructive dialogue and genuine reconciliation. Until then, keep up your hollow ceremonies, and keep trying to explain their meaning which you can no longer remember. Or, alternatively, each one of you who wish to do some good in the world, can join us and become a DreamRaiser. Reply Alert moderator Mick Hedges : 21 Jul 2010 1:05:40pm Just wondering where you get your self appointed authority to comment on the Dreamtime when you have no kinships or relationship to the highly regarded Law men and women Yellena. I have taken your name and changed it to how I would like to represent it and I know you will be okay with this because you support taking the Wandjina and changing it. Make sense? No?

Don't worry about standing on your pulpit telling others to cleanse their heart, spend the time developing some humility and respect for the men and women who kept this country strong and in balance for thousands of years and were given the Wandjina for THAT part of the country as a part of that custodianship. Who are still here regardless of your belief otherwise.

Your ignorance is appalling Yellena. Hollow ceremonies? When was the last time you went to Inma or were involved with the Tjilpis? Do you even know what the words mean? No of course you don't because you have NO relationship...which has lead you to believe the ceremonies are empty. Very foolish of you!

You have no idea about customary law and ceremonial business that is going on as we speak. Shame on you Yellena for being so disrespectful to the ceremonial men and women!

This is a perfect example of why the elders are outraged over the stealing of their Wandjina and lets not forget that Goomblar has also disowned you lot after his words were twisted and his generosity exploited.

He showed how he felt when he lead the protest against Vesna Tenodi that terrible day the Wandjina theft was made public. Reply Alert moderator Jenny H : 21 Jul 2010 1:54:50pm Re: "Or, alternatively, each one of you who wish to do some good in the world, can join us and become a DreamRaiser."

Oh I know this one. "Aboriginal people, you do it MY way or not at all"

Sounds like the colonising invaders speech to me! Join you? Why? so you can move to the next region and steal THEIR sacred imagery as well, why not stop there, how about paint yourselves up and recreate an ancient creation dance there on the grass along the main street of Katoomba, that will and show how really authorised you are to steal sacred practices from those who have custodianship!

It wouldn't surprise me if that was next on your groups cultural misappropriation agenda.

This farce is a Nightmare Raiser for the Elders and to justify Vesna's refusal to respect their request as some kind of spiritual directive to someone who is not remotely related to the Wandjina on any level and has no idea of the laws in place to maintain the cultural obligations is like watching an appalling reenactment of invasion into Aboriginal land all over again.

You might give a thought to why there is such anger projected towards this self appointed authority, soon to be making Wandjina products for sale according to the website. Maybe there are no Indigenous people to exploit in Croatia? Perhaps that's why this utterly offensive behavior is going on - after all archaeologists have been robbing graves and stealing implements from their burial places for years. All part of the job for Vesna Tenodi! Reply Alert moderator Leon M. J. : 21 Jul 2010 4:49:19pm I have been following this debate on the page and at various other locations across the internet and know some of the people mentioned.

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I can confirm that Goomblar Wylo is not authorised to speak for the traditional people of any of the main language groups nor are his statements supported by other Aboriginal people who are qualified in these matters.

My Wylo's belief that everyone has lost their Dreaming is a sad reflection on his personal loss of kinship and relationships and not at all relevant to Aboriginal Australia en masse, most certainly especially irrelevant to the men and women and young people across Australia who are engaged in ceremony at this time as they are through the various seasons.

Quite frankly the postulations and assertions of late arrivals to this country by members of the Australian-Croation community in this forum, who are convinced that Aborigines need their management and advocacy is utterly laughable and reflects their belief in their own self importance and little else.

As for the woman who is convinced she is the conduit for great knowledge by invisible spirits who have told her to take an image that belongs to others and for very good reason, I have known people to be medicated for far less improbable delusions of grandeur.

Your belief in 'empty ceremonies' Jelena clearly demonstrates you have not travelled across this magnificent, established trusted relationships or had the privilege of engaging with Aboriginal people on any level of consequence.

Your ignorance is forgiveable but your rude and ridiculous statements are not. Reply Alert moderator Debbi Seen-it-all-before : 21 Jul 2010 6:33:44pm My sista put me onto this story 2day i culdnt believe what I wuz hearing. Goomblar has had a crap life n plenty of people know that n he talks about it openly but guess what? so have plenty of white fullas, sum have lost their way to but where are all the aboriginal people carving up fake carvins of their story n telling them they need to be saved by them ?

for this woman to come along n turn Goomblars story into something diffrent than wot she told him it wld be & tell the world black fellas hve all lost their way is wrong. n to use this bruthas story to prove that every other blackfulla is lost like he is shows how little this stranga knows about black fulla ways .shes pretty quik to rip off his story pinch sumones important spirt thayve been caring n then use it for wot she wants!! If jelena vesna tenodi thinks shell get away with this n mak money selling Wanjina stuff that sumone here talked about shes in for a big surprise now the law is involved. dont forget there is more than white fella law in this country. theres the law of karma 'n other laws most fullas know nuthin about. Tenodi shld go fix christianity up n stop upsetting the old people fix up the religion tht invaded evry other culutre n stole their spirit . thatd keep her busy selling crucifixes n flogging off statues n out of black fullas bizness, Reply Alert moderator Bec : 26 Jul 2010 11:48:23am I've listened to the program and I read that book she wrote Jelena the reason why the people whose tradition is the Wandjina might be thinking Tenodi is nuts is because she is. They've checked her out remember. She wrote about a man who is not even related to the country where the Wandjina was stolen from so that he would back up her racist belief that all Aboriginal people have lost their dreaming. That shows just how nuts she is and how little she knows about what goes on outside of the public eye that she will never ever be privvy too. As far as 'hollow cermonies' goes, you've got no idea what you are talking about. None at all because if you did know about ceremony you would not have said such an ignorant thing. you're probably nuts too though Jellena- Vesna. Theres a lot of nutty white people who think they are here to save the Aboriginal people when it was the white people who are the invaders and thieves into Aboriginal land and culture. Now that the kidnapping of Aboriginal children can't be done like it was before, let's steal the culture and spirit beings instead! That's more than nuts, that's immoral and illegal and you are a fool for thinking otherwise. Reply Alert moderator Reg : 22 Jul 2010 3:45:15pm This story turned up in my email today. Many people know Goomblar and his history and to use him to prop up this 'Those Who Know' business as if he can speak for all Aborigines in australia is stupid. Just like the stupid woman who has committed this crime against cultural law is stupid and the followers who have been tricked by her. The word is stupid.

This stealing an ancient ancestral being from Kimberly country and sticking it in cold mountain country is stupid. Ignoring what its protectors from the Kimberlys are saying is stupid + folly.

This woman and her followers will be affected by their stupidity in the long run. Thats the one clever thing about this stupid situation, those who DO know are in charge and they are not the ones this stupid woman thinks they are.

If it was white people stealing from white people in an art gallery, someone would go to jail. Just because aboriginal people don't have buildings to steal from doesn't mean it isn't a theft and that someone won't end up paying for that theft, whether you call it karma or by another word few non-aboriginal people would understand.

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The solution is for Tenodi to stop but I think she is too stupid to see that she has committed a crime against traditional law. history has shown how dangerous stupid people are, especially to them self. Reply Alert moderator G.F. : 23 Jul 2010 1:52:02pm Aboriginal people lost their Dreaming? Crap! Doesn't this Tenodi woman watch Message Stick or Living Black or listen to Awaye! on ABC radio. Doesn't she read the Koori Mail or the literature put out by Dr Anita Heiss or the stories being written by Aboriginal people across Australia? Hasn't she met the mob who are creating their Dreaming paintings that are selling across the world? no of course she hasn't met them - they would see straight through her like the representative from the Kimberlys who came to look at her did!

Picking up a bloke playing the didgeridoo in the main street and then tricking him into telling his story for sale then ripping off a Wanjina and using the bloke as a reason to justify a warped perception of Aborigines based on the kind of white supremacy that started this 'they need fixing ' lark is pretty shoddy behaviour in anyones books. I've met this kind of woman with the saviour complex before and she's nothing but trouble. Unqualified and full of self importance. I'm surprised her ears weren't as red as her wig after our last staff meeting when we were discussing how to deal with this business! Reply Alert moderator Vera Green : 27 Jul 2010 11:05:12am Good point G.F. re the paintings Aboriginal people are creating that are so well received on the global market. THEY decide which stories will be shared, which images will be replicated. That is called self determination. Reply Alert moderator meri : 24 Jul 2010 11:42:50am Supporting Amadeo, 19/7 I’d like to add: Congratulations on this program, Damien. Thanks to your thorough preparation you gave us the opportunity to hear different views of this highly interesting issue of “ownership”. You interviewed people who shed light from many different angles, without being over judgmental or subjective. I really enjoyed listening, and learned a lot. Pity that the discussion on this web page is not continuing in the witty way it started, rather than a few people writing their endless, one eyed monologues. Listener Reply Alert moderator Mick Hedges : 27 Jul 2010 10:52:43am Oh yes Meri, let's all be witty and playful and hold hands and sing the song Amadeo wrote for the Aborigines who have had their scared Wandjina stolen. That's just the solution we need.

Let's all just be 'nice' and ask the silly Aborigines to stop being so ridiculous over the theft of their Wandjina.

What a great idea. Witty witty witty witty witty ...ahh.... theft of stolen Sacred imagea nd Croatian womans disregards of Aboriginal law is all better now.... Reply Alert moderator Craig : 01 Aug 2010 3:05:07pm Endless one eyed monologues you reckon hey meri? I reckon they are pretty spot on the mark about this latest display of white people make a mess of Aboriginal culture that was doing just fine till the saviours came along and messed everything up! Reply Alert moderator Deft Derrick : 26 Jul 2010 3:34:26pm I heard some of my colleagues talking about what this woman is doing to the Kimberly community so after having a listen here is the problem in a nutshell:

Vesna Tenodi: I wouldn't know about that because they haven't approached me or told me or put it in writing, any objections that they might have.

When a white woman assumes that traditional people are going to "approach or acknowledge" someone who has broken their law , or that a man sent down to view the offence will talk to the woman, you can see right there where the problem is. Someone else made a comment about that and I a saying it too in case Tenodi missed it the first time. This archaeologist, a professional grave robber who pokes around in other peoples sacred business for a living, has the European assumption and belief in entitlement that Indigenous people will respond in the way she expects and when they don't to still assume she has the right to continue with her theft and robbery!

I've read through the replies, agree with the likes of Mick Hedges and Jenny H and quite frankly am surprised that the imposter statue is still

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standing. Vesnas fellow Croation mate Jellena should hang her head in shame writing vitriol like "hollow ceremonies". I think all Croatians have lost their spirit and am going to write a book about it but need to find a fiddle playing troubled Croatian person first to speak on behalf of them all.

Thanks goodness for the ceremonies that are still going on across the country that white Australia had no idea about, other wise the sickness of this land because of mining the guts out of it and pouring chemicals in the air and sea would be a whole lot worse believe me! Reply Alert moderator One Who REALLY Knows : 28 Jul 2010 11:18:36am Attention - Breaking News.

ALL Croatian people have lost their spirit and are VERY lost and need saving by a foreigner to their culture.

All Croatian people need to be saved by invisible voices who will direct an Aboriginal saviour person to plop one of the Croatian symbols of culture on a hill out from Dubbo as away of telling the world how lost the Croatians are.

All Croatian people have lost their marbles as exemplified by the woman who steals from Aboriginal people and then writes songs about how much they are loved.

ALL Croatian people need saving immediately as this woman representing them and a few of her supporters have demonstrated , it is a wide spread plague of ignorance that ALL Croatians have.

Just like how ALL Aboriginal people have lost their Dreaming, ALL Croatians will now be written about, have things stolen from them and come under the Needing to Be Saved convention of the United Nutters Foundation International.

Thankyou Deft Derrick for letting us know just how seriously ALL Croatians are affected by their fall from enlightenment - a short trip some might say - as they plummet into the abyss unless they are pulled out by the Aboriginal saviours who are writing songs about how much the Croatians are loved as we speak .

It all makes sense now, racism has nothing to do with making a sweeping statement about hundreds of thousands of people en masse, you just need to say you have been called by an invisible mob called Those Who Know and you can then say whatever you like about ALL of the people belonging to one cultural group.

**Late Breaking News:

There is a move to round up all of the lost Croatians and put them into camps to protect them from themselves. This is a very good thing as it is dangerous to have Croatians walking around who have forgotten their religion and are lost.

***A web site is being developed to sell effigys of Lost Croatians to people across the world and there will also be an art competition so that people can draw pictures of Lost Croatians and then put them in an art gallery for the rest of the world to see them.

Further products, including tea spoons for stirring Lost Croations into their senses are being created as we speak.

**** If you have heard rumours about the Wandjina products in development on a rival web site, alas this is true!

They are being created by the head of the Lost Croatians who has decided to project their dire circumstances on another group instead.

***WARNING Buying these Wandjina products could bring you misfortune as anything created by one of the Wandjina robbers carries questionable karma that is currently under review by Those Who REALLY Know...

Reply Alert moderator John N : 28 Jul 2010 3:49:19pm I think I just saw one of the Lost Croations walk down the street. I now understand that they have ALL lost their way just like ALL Aboriginal people have lost theirs.

Just need to know what we can best do to save one? Has the big statue in Dubbo been erected yet? Where is the place for Lost Croations ?

And thank you One Who REALLY Knows for alerting us to how the Croations need saving and are in dire need of external intervention by people outside of their community.

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I have written to my local member to request an Intervention into Lost Croation's Act in order to help them as much as we can.

Now if anyone reading this think a "how bloody ridiculous and OFFENSIVE"...then YES you are RIGHT it is!!

And very WRONG to make a sweeping, diminishing statement about ANY group of people as 'they all'.

So can you imagine how Aboriginal people feel given that it is REALLY happening that this woman has said they are ALL lost? And their Sacred Wandjina does not belong to them?

She has written a book about these lies, is selling their Sacred Wandjina as a marketing tool and continues to ignore their request to stop?

Who is lost I wonder? Reply Alert moderator Priscilla : 30 Jul 2010 12:06:45pm You make an excellent point John. Vesna Tenodi has written a racist book that makes sweeping statements about all Aboriginal people in Australia. I am sure she would not be happy if someone wrote a book saying "All Croatian people are in dire need of saving and are in spiritual decline because of the events of the trauma in their country".

It seems no coincidence to me that someone who has come from a cultural background with such a horrific past is most likely projecting her own trauma and displacement on every Aboriginal person in this country.

It's worth thinking about Vesna. Perhaps you need to look at your own issues before you accuse a whole nation of Aboriginal people of being lost?

Well written comment John. Thanks for highlighting the racist assumptions behind Vesna Tenodis cultural theft and subsequent accusations in her book, which I have read and was disgusted with by her the idealisation of the complexities of Aboriginal Australia adjusting to the post colonial invasion society the traditional owners and custodians of this country have been forced to live in. Reply Alert moderator Monica from the Kimberlys : 01 Aug 2010 1:50:24pm Point well made One Who Knows. Making a statement about 'all' Aboriginal people and quoting a man who by his own admission has had a very troubled past as your expert on the matter is not only irresponsible but demonstrates the insidious nature of racism thinly disguised as 'helping'. I have been very interested to read the comments from others regrading using Goomblar as a voice for all of the language groups and that he does not have permission to speak on anyones behalf.

The best 'help' Ms Tenodi, as an outsider to the Wanjina culture could do is cease her highly offensive conduct, listen to what the Aboriginal people who are ancestral to the Wandjina are telling her and respect their position rather misappropriate and exploit their sacred being.

Thankyou to the Law Report for making us all aware of the deplorable behaviour of this woman and her supporters. How she can claim to run a "Wellness"centre when her behaviour is distressing to so many people is beyond my comprehension.

I shall be distributing this information widely and would like the Aboriginal people of the Kimberlys and the community in the Blue Mountains to know that there are many non-Aboriginal people who are equally appalled by the theft of your Wandjina and the further vandalism that has occurred by placing a mouth on the stolen image.

Shame on you Vesna Tenodi , I am sure your behaviour will not bring you much joy in the long run. Pay attention to what you are being told is my advice. Reply Alert moderator G.F. : 02 Aug 2010 1:45:25pm It aint gonna happen Monica from the Kimberly's! Vesna Tenodi is planning in making a lot of money from selling Wandjina products remember. She has put people on notice on her website to watch out for them as they are coming soon! She is also planning on writing two more books but I get the feeling that it will all fall through cause karma is bigger than any court laws. Aboriginal law is very clear about who is entitled to create the Wandjina and how custodianship is passed on and where Wandjina must reside. I wouldn't want to get on the wrong side of those old law men who most people don't even realise are keeping an eye on things. Vesna Tenodi has upset many people she is not even aware of. Yet. Reply Alert moderator Ken Mc : 30 Jul 2010 5:44:13pm I've read through all of these comments and I listened to that so called Wandjina song that Amadeo (see comment further down wrote) sings and I'm left wondering where a non-Indigenous person gets off instructing Aboriginal people to 'let go of your anger" when it is people like him and

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his partner in cultural crime, Vesna Tenodi,who continue to ignore the keepers of the Wandjinas request to respect that the Wandjina has very important significance and should not be mistreated by exploiting it, stealing it from its home country or turning it into a website and commercial attraction.

Amadeos "Let go of your anger" song is akin to a bloke knocking someone down as they steal his family heirloom and as they hit the ground saying "let go of your anger mate - I am doing this for you you know. I am taking over your heirloom now, ghosts have told me too you see". It would be laughable if it wasn't so offensive and full of do gooders who are doing nothing but wrong. You want people to let go of their anger mate? Then get rid of that monstrosity with the appalling mouth put on it for a start.

It seems it is only the Croatian respondents on this comment page who think Vesna Tenodi is doing the right thing but seeing as all Croatians are lost I guess it is not a surprise. People might like to check out the site that someone has put up to educate those who are fooled by Tenodis misconduct ( modrogorje.net ) for further information about how these people are offending Indigenous Australia and saying it is in their best interests. Reply Alert moderator Clive : 02 Aug 2010 2:15:52pm I met an old Aboriginal man once when I was working on a station. He used to tell me about the stories of different places when we were out mustering cattle and he was a highly regarded law man. He said something to me one day which I have never forgotten. "White fella law change all the time, different mob in government, new laws. White fellas want to take something that doesn't belong to them, they make up new laws and take your land. Black fella law has always been the same. Law never changes. doesn't matter what white fellas law says, our law has been given to us by our ancestors".

Vesna Tenodi has broken Aboriginal law by stealing a highly sacred being from its owners, she continues to sell and exploit stories that do not belong to her and as she has no relationships with Aboriginal people, not even the one she wrote about in her book now, I am assuming she has no idea what she is messing with. Otherwise she would listen. I saw things happen with that old bloke that show how powerful Aboriginal people are . Reply Alert moderator Mick Hedges : 02 Aug 2010 10:24:59am I've been following the comments on this page for the past month and am not surprised that the majority to see the majority of people commenting are as outraged by Vesna Tenodis theft of the Wandjina and then writing a book of lies about the Aborigines as I am. The only ones who think what she has done is okay are the ones who are in cahoots with her it seems.

My making the statement that 'all Croatians are lost and needing saving ", One Who REALLY Knows", has demonstrated the same kijd of fabritcation and up the racial vilification of Tenodis statement when she has publicly stated that all Aboriginal people have lost their Dreaming.

A sweeping racially based statement that may well have ramifications under the Racial Discrimination legislation and I look forward to the lawyers challenging Vesna Tenodis racism, slander and cultural vandalism in the courts. Reply Alert moderator Nick : 02 Aug 2010 11:42:19am This debate is an interesting illustration of the differences between the 'pro' and 'con' groups. Those in support of Vesna Tenodi and her artists make their point, refraining from insults and when there are insults in return they ignore it. On the other hand, the Cons, which I can see is the same couple of people posting the same, repetitive 'thoughts' - how very fitting to call them cons - they go on and on, not knowing when to stop, until they turn everyone against them, with the sheer intensity of their hate against the white people. They are like ants, once they swarm all over you, you cannot shake them off. This is a good example of that, even in this clear cut case of a white lady and her artists exercising their basic right to do what they are fully and legally entitled to do, as clearly stated by everyone on Damien's great program, but some of the guests here obviously have no capacity to understand. I've also read the book, and listened to its DVD with Goomblar Wylo's didgeridoo. He was fantastic, while performing for Vesna and the Those- Who-Know. Thank you, Goomblar, for those great sounds of the Dreamtime. Reply Alert moderator Mick Hedges : 02 Aug 2010 5:59:38pm Nick the biggest insult has been the stealing of the Wandjina and the refusal to listen to the elders. If you can't see that then you are as blind as the rest of Tenodis supporters and misguided mob.

Goomblar has disassociated himself from Vesna Tenodi and feels deeply betrayed by her machinations and misrepresentation.Thats a fact and his way of demonstrating that on the day of the launch shows he is a very angry man indeed over her conduct.

So whilst you sit and listen to your cd keep in mind that you are now also a part of this cultural theft and misappropriation that is heading to the courts. Reply Alert moderator

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Jenny H : 02 Aug 2010 6:20:19pm It's nothing to do with hatred against 'white' people Nick. I am one after all! - but unlike Vesna Tenodi, I spend a great deal of my life with Aboriginal people, law men and women, and understand the extent of this violation of Aboriginal law.

The outrage on this page has to do with the theft of scared imagery, the exploitation of Aboriginal people as the Katoomba Community has spoken out about and the total disregarded for customary law and culture. Her book has been rejected by those she says she is representing and notification has gone to all of the libraries in the country who hold this book to let them know it is a fabrication.

What you interpret as insults are nothing in comparison to this insult against the rightful custodians of the Wandjina and the country where it belongs.

I am sure Goombla is 'fantastic' on the didgeridoo, he is a very skilled musician but as others have pointed out in this commentary, he is not authorised to speak on behalf of the hundreds of language groups who are supposed to have lost their Spirt and their Dreaming.

Rather than 'turning people against them", the Con vote as you call it, no doubt short for Con-science vote, has brought this latest round of invasion into Aboriginal culture to the attention of many people who are now fully aware that Vesna Tenodi has a web site where she has taken her stolen Wandjina and is now planning a commercial venture and other deplorable money-making exploits.

How ridiculous to quote invisible 'Those Who Know" people who she says have chosen a foreign woman to Aboriginal culture to 'save' them when there are many law men and women who are fully centred in their power and authority in spite of her assertions that all Aborigines are lost. Reply Alert moderator J.K.L : 02 Aug 2010 7:18:27pm I have been invited to read through the transcript and the comments on this page after receiving an email over the weekend. I was shocked to say the least to know that this kind of thing can still happen in this day and age and join with others on the page who apologise to the Kimberly Community for this terrible situaton as I am fully acquainted with the reason why the Wandjina does NOT have a mouth and the seriousness of its theft out of the North West country.

Nick re: "even in this clear cut case of a white lady and her artists exercising their basic right to do what they are fully and legally entitled to do". This 'law' you are referring to has been made up by white people, who invaded this country and stole it from the black people with great violence that still has its impact today. That's a fact . So to assert that white people have the right to steal sacred Wandjinas and copy it because the western laws that say it is okay", is a very weak argument indeed.

Stealing Aboriginal children was also once a "fully and entitled " law, to quote you Nick, that resulted in grief that still has its impact across Aboriginal Australia today.

Here is a brave new idea for you, how about people listen to what the ABORIGINAL people are saying rather than the voices in Vesna Tenodis head?

Re your appreciation of irony in your words - "how very fitting to call them cons", your name, nick, also means to pinch /steal /something. How about that?! Reply Alert moderator John : 03 Aug 2010 12:30:28am When Donny Woolagoodja visited Ben Osvath's Wanjina Watchers sculpture back in March, he met with the Blue Mountains Aboriginal group and gave them explicit instructions to leave Vesna and her artists alone, and to quit the abuse.

He told them they are turning into toxic people, and to stop projecting all that poison onto that lady, explaining that it just keeps coming back to them, and they have become toxic to themselves.

He was worried and warned them not to let their hate take over, not to be blinded by their personalities, but to see how that sculpture can be good for Aboriginal people.

If Donny is following this debate, he must be shocked to see how the local Aboriginal community in the Mountains disrespected him by ignoring his advice.

Donny gave them a good advice, and by disregarding his directives they show how little they think of him. No real Aboriginal person would ever dare to so blatantly ignore such a highly regarded elder's instructions. Reply Alert moderator G.F. :

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03 Aug 2010 3:48:52pm This is what Don has REALLY said as quoted in the Law Repost transcript -he has made very clear that Vesna Tenodi has broken Aboriginal Law.

You are not privvy john to conversations that occur in private. He certainly has given Vesna Tenodi "Good advice" and if she ignores it she is a very silly woman indeed. He states they are 'very angry about it' as are manyothers and demonstrated their anger accordingly. Or would you like people to meekly bow to Vsnas theft and ask her nicely to please not do it? I'm sure tha would be very effective condsidering she is planning on making products to sell and the Wadndjina is a money making business for her.

Excerpts from the Transcript:

Donny Woolagoodja is a traditional elder from the Kimberley. In March he visited Katoomba to see the sculpture for himself. He was very upset by what he saw.

Donny Woolagoodja: Well I mean it's not belong to her, it's not her Dreaming. It belongs to us. Our ancestors had it before any western people came to Australia.

Donny Woolagoodja: Well I thought it was very wrong to do something that somebody put...did not belong to her. You know, it was our Dreaming, and - very angry about. It's not her image and people that use our images,they don't really know all about it.

Donny Woolagoodja: It's not hers to use. It's like I'm going using somebody's things in their propertyand you just can't do that anymore. I can't do that to somebody else's image.

Donny Woolagoodja: Yes. But in my side of law when I hear somebody that has not the right to use our images,you can feel it, it's like Wandjina is like part of us.

Donny Woolagoodja: Yes. It's not for me to talk, you know, I mean I have to come back to the main group and I asked them what they think and they didn't want me to talk to her.

Donny Woolagoodja: Oh, well, not really, I mean it's not free for anybody to use it. We have to control it because if one person can use it, well then the whole world would use it, so you've got to be very careful what you're doing..

Donny Woolagoodja: (Regarding why he did not talk to Tenodi) No, I didn't, because I just looked at her and I could see right through her, because she's not the right woman to talk to.

The following sums up the views of the RIGHTFUL owners John and unlike your constructed quote with not a shred of evidence to support it, this is in writing and states the position of the Elders very clearly:

Damien Carrick: Vesna would argue that, well, we all have freedom of religion and freedom of expression and if people feel a connection to something, then they should be able to express that. What do you say to that argument?

Donny Woolagoodja: Oh, well, not really, I mean it's not free for anybody to use it. We have to control it because if one person can use it, well then the whole world would Reply Alert moderator Mick Hedges : 04 Aug 2010 10:06:50am John when you write

"If Donny is following this debate, he must be shocked to see how the local Aboriginal community in the Mountains disrespected him by ignoring his advice."

It leaves me thinking if you are really genuinely think or have just chosen to ignore al what Donny and his Community have said about Vesna Tenodis cultural theft or if you are just another one of my fellow white Australians who makes me ashamed of the way Europeans will twist something to suit their own agenda.

I am going to assume you have no relationships with Aboriginal people otherwise you would understand why the Katoomba community are

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angry about this, how having a sacred being from another part of the country is not on and how this woman, under ABORIGINAL law is no different than any other thief in the European context.

But no, you come up with some fallacious conversation in spite of what the transcript clearly states is Donnys position. Yet another white man who has no idea as demonstrated by coming up with the term 'real Aboriginal person'. You're not even aware of your own racism.

What are you, some fake white man? not a 'real Australian person" John because you don't toe the line and bow to the dominating beliefs of a minority around you? 'Drongo' is the scientific term for you mate.

Read the transcript, Donny is angry- he states it, not 'oh don't be angry my brother and sister, let's see what this fake Wandjina can do for us". I don't think so! Reply Alert moderator Leon : 05 Aug 2010 10:58:57am I am not surprised that supporters of Vesna Tenodi are prepared to make up a reconstructed version of the events in order to suit their agenda of using a stolen image for their financial ventures, as per the advanced notice that Wandjina products will be available soon .

However there are two key aspects to Donnys interview that debunk the ridiculous assertion that Donny has said the creation of a fake Wanjina can be 'good for Aboriginal people' and the Kimberly Community should not fight against it..

Read the following from the transcript John, take note that Donny has stated they are angry!

Listen to what the Aboriginal people want not this bogus mystic who believes she has a higher authority than the custodians of the Wandjina:

Donny Woolagoodja: Well I thought it was very wrong to do something that somebody put...did not belong to her. You know, it was our Dreaming, and - very angry about. It's not her image and people that use our images,they don't really know all about it.

Donny Woolagoodja: It's not hers to use. It's like I'm going using somebody's things in their propertyand you just can't do that anymore. I can't do that to somebody else's image.

To Mick Hedges - Keep meeting the lies and cultural disregard in this commentary section with your consistent posts , as non-Indigenous Australians you and have a moral obligation to support the wishes of the Kimberly Community and name this situation for what it is. Cultural misappropriation and exploitation at its very worst! Reply Alert moderator Monica from the Kimberlys : 05 Aug 2010 12:32:19pm If people are not yet convinced how abhorrent this debacle is and how utterly offensive and inappropriate to the Kimberly Community cut and past this link info and read what Donny Wolagoodja says about Vesna Tenodi's disrespect for his request in a separate interivew to the Law Report, where he has also made clear they are angry aobut her disregard for Aboriginal people i creating this fake replica of their sacred Wandjina.

To read the article add http// to: treatyrepublic.net/node/259#1

This segment of the interview is particularly telling:

"We feel we are being disrespected by what the lady is doing," Mr Woolagoodja told the Gazette.

"She is taking the spiritual being that belongs to the three tribes at Mowanjum — the Worrorra, the Ngarinyin and the Wunambul.

"When she rang Mowanjum Art Centre they said no to her, she did not get any agreement and put all these things up without our permission.

"Culture is very important for our community, especially for our young generation. If they see something like this happen, it’s very bad.

"The people in NSW, they’ve got totem that we don't go and copy — we respect them and any other people should respect our way of life, our images."

According to Mrs Tenodi's book "those who matter" were consulted, but when it came to being more specific she refused to answer the Gazette's questions."

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Which part of the word "No" does Vesna Tenodi not understand?

Reply Alert moderator Hal who works in Communities : 09 Aug 2010 12:14:25pm In response to Nick who said "even in this clear cut case of a white lady and her artists exercising their basic right to do what they are fully and legally entitled to do".

You may well say that under European law Vesna and her band of artists have every right to express themselves and their version of the Wandjina in any way they want Nick but in doing so you will provide a perfect example of the uncompromising narcissism and self appointed entitlement that defines the European invasion into Aboriginal land, culture, heritage and history. We are in fact dealing with Aboriginal Law at the heart of this matter. Keep that in mind even though you re centred in the mind set of the invading group.

When a dominant force enters into anothers land and progressively erodes the very things that keep its people and society strong, including its sacred beings and the stories associated with them one of the things that is done to enforce the annihilation of anothers rights is to assert that 'my law is greater than YOUR law" - even though yours was established for thousands of years before we came along and made these things up.

Others have said things in a similar vein here and have articulated the same violations and immoral conduct of Tenodi over and over again. I am adding my voice to the "con'science" voters here so that Indigenous people can be assured that there are many, many white Australians who fully respect their outrage and consider the actions of this Croatian-Australian and her community an appallingly 'un -Australian' way to conduct themselves. Though sadly post Euorpean history is saturated in this kind of blatant disregard for Indigenous rights.

I am in total agreement with the commentator who made the point that perhaps Tenodis own turbulent cultural background and all that has gone on in her country is the reason she is projecting such racially discriminatory views and why she has written about Aboriginal people with such negativity and discrimination, even though she has no relationships with the victims of her theft and has been rejected by those who have had the misfortune to come across her during the misappropriated Wandjina debacle. Perhaps the shrine to lost-Croatians in in Dubbo will help them to heal and let go of their anger and become happy again? Great suggestion! Reply Alert moderator G.F. : 11 Aug 2010 2:28:29pm Monica and Hal,

I notice you both refer to the Wandjina theft as a 'debacle'. It's more than that but I am not sure if there is a single word that means "blatant theft of sacred being that is accompanied by a bull s**t book that says all Aboriginal people are lost".

It's a debacle alright and a perfect example of the european mind set that really believes in its own self importance.

Reply Alert moderator Mick Hedges : 12 Aug 2010 10:27:12am Now why I am not surprised to read the following update on the modrogorje.net web site? The web site is there to let people know the developments in Tenodis relentless violation of Wandjina law.

The latest news is that Vesna Tenodi barges uninvited into a meeting and announces that the invisible voices she is in touch with have made her an 'honorary Aboriginal Auntie'. To use a colloquial term "Shame job Vesna!!"

Read about how it happened here and how she was removed by the police. Others less fortunate have been taken to the psychiatric ward for lesser behavior when they have insisted invisible entities are directing them to conduct themselves so anti socially.It seems the theory of the Lost Croatians as brought to our attention by One Who REALLY Knows further down this page might be spot on the mark.

How one woman can offend so many people and still refuse to listen to anyone in authority - Aboriginal authority - (the only relevant authority in this appalling drama) is beyond me. But here you have it.!

**To the members of the Aboriginal community who have been so hurt and offended by this woman conduct, I apologise along with my other non-Aboriginal Australians across this forum.

modrogorje.net

Verbatim:

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"About Vesna Tenodi and her fake Aboriginal Art

Newsflash: On Saturday 31 July Vesna barged into an invitation only meeting of local Aboriginal groups and refused to leave claiming the "spirits" had made her an honorary Aboriginal Auntie. The (understaffed) local police came after about 2 hours and removed her and charged her with trespass. By this time she had wrecked the meeting.

As well as her fake Aboriginal Art which is embarrasing the Blue Mountains (NSW, Australia) as a tourist destination, many of the local Aboriginal community are outraged that Vesna Tenodi is claiming in her statements that she has Aboriginal support for her fake gallery and books. She has published very private personal information that some Aboriginal trusted her with.

Vesna has also offended a Northern Australian Aboriginal community by publishing paintings by Gina Sinozich of their dreamtime legends as they were never intended and with no consultation or permissions. Aboriginal communities from both sides of Australia claim that Vesna and Gina have held in contempt important spiritual beliefs.

Even if you don't care about the Aboriginal spiritual beliefs, copying their artwork is just intelectual property theft - just plain stealing. Vesna has successfully managed to outrage a significant number of Aboriginal people.

Anyone who purchases any of the artwork might feel somewhat ripped off to find the art is non-authentic."

Reply Alert moderator Clive : 18 Aug 2010 4:41:32pm Well that sums it all up Mick.Thanks for the info form the modrogorje.net web site. If Vesna Tenodi is now saying she has been made an honorary Aboriginal Auntie by the invisible voices she calleds "those who know" and intruded on a community meeting announcing this, we are obviously dealing with a deeply disturbed woman.

Like I said in an earlier post, I have seen those traditional law men in action and that monstrosity of the misappropriated Wandjina should be taken down immediately.

Vesna's actions are bringing her nothing but grief and instability and she would be wise to listen to what she is been told by the Aboriginal community because she obviously had no idea what she is dealing with by this on going violation of traditional Law. Reply Alert moderator A.Martin : 21 Aug 2010 2:02:31pm Tank you to my colleague for forwarding this information to my office. Let's be clear about some things here:

1. This big slab of obliterated rock is NOT a Wandjina. It has NOTHING to do with a Wandjina. It is a mimicry with a mouth and designed in very poor taste regardless of the alleged intentions of the offending parties. The lack of insight as to why Wandjina does NOT have a mouth shows how fallacious this woman's assertions are that she is being directed by higher beings.

2. The Wandjina is a deeply sacred Being and is created by strictly adhering to a very ancient Law. Referring to it as 'dead knowledge' that needs to be revived as this woman and her supporters has done further adds to her offensive conduct and displays a high degree of ignorance.

3. The woman who is claiming to have authority beyond the traditional owners is now in and out of court and receiving a great deal of trouble as she continues to ignore the Law men. These highly regarded people are the rightful custodians and protectors and along with the Katoomba Community are outraged by her disrespect and unethical conduct.

4. The troubles this woman is now facing demonstrates how far she is operating in defiance of traditional Law and the consequences of what she is now reaping will bring her no peace of mind or joy. We can know her by the fruits of her actions.

5. Those who are supporting her defiance of traditional law, writing songs and supporting a 'Wandjina" competition are doing the very opposite to their stated intent of 'helping' Aboriginal people and are only adding to the conflict that this woman has brought into being.

Let's also be clear that the journalist Andrew Bolt is regarded as little more than a boy-man in so far as his understanding of rightful conduct and respect when dealing with matters of traditional Law and his words are irrelevant to the men and women who are very clear about what is going on here regarding the destructive actions of the woman who refuses to listen to what she is being told. Reply Alert moderator Clive : 25 Aug 2010 12:45:56pm Spot on A.Martin!

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That big carving has nothing to do with the Wandjina but unfortunately many tourists may well be duped by Tenodi into believing it is authentic and has the good will of Aboriginal people behind it. Could not be further from the truth!

Someone else made a comment here about Marlo Morgan's ridiculous book "Mutant Messengers Down Under" and Tenodi's carry on is equally as fictional and offensive to the Aboriginal community Australia wide. It took a contingent of Aboriginal people to travel to America and confront the publishers for the book to be categorised from biography to the fiction it is!

If Tenodi and any of her mislead supporters had even an inkling of the kind of advanced knowledge and its application they are dealing with when Law men become involved, you can guarantee they would not be sprouting their defiance across the internet or Tenodi calling herself a "Wanjina CEO" - It's on her web site. Shame on her!

No wonder her life has turned into court cases and conflict. And it is not going to get any better for her whilst those Law-breaking effigies are still on view or her totally misleading website is still in the public domain.

And I'm with you on how Andrew Bolt is viewed by the old men A. Martin. Boy-man pretty well sums it up when you hear the senior men discuss his kind with mouth always moving but no law knowledge coming out.

It has been heartening to see reader- reviews in the public libraries that hold the book she has written. People are letting others know the book, under Aboriginal law, is both illegal and completely wrong in its assertions. Good on the internet activists on that one! I noted that it is no longer circulating at my library and has sat on the shelf for months now. Reply Alert moderator Alison G : 28 Aug 2010 5:44:32pm I have read through these comments, listened to the program, looked over the website that Vesna has created and have come to the conclusion that she is a very mislead and extremely uneducated woman who really has no understanding of Wandjina Culture, Aboriginal people, kinship systems or sacred rituals and their application.

I am going to offer something that I don't think anyone else here has so that she can learn something of value and that is the book "Images of Power"- Aboriginal Art of the Kimberley by Judith Ryan in partnership with the National Gallery of Victoria. There is a comprehensive introduction followed by several chapters that cover Wandjina history, protocols and some of ceremonial aspects that have been permitted to be shared. I am sure there are many other ceremonies and sophisticated practices that are not for sharing outside of the custodianship of the Wandjina.

Had Vesna read this book she most certainly would not refer to Wandjina as 'dead knowledge" that needed a mouth put on it. Unfortunately she is obviously a very head strong woman who believes she is being called by invisible spirits. Thank goodness for people like the artist Chris Tobin who have taken her to task on her breech of Wandjina Law and Aboriginal customary practices. There was much discussion over the dinner table at our house last night as to how appalling it is for a Croatian woman invade Aboriginal culture so publicly and insist she has come to save them!

Extraordinarily bad manners by anyones standards!

The book "Images of Power" is readily available on Amazon and Vesna may well learn something of value from the authors introduction and her representation of Aboriginal people which is a long was from her racially discriminatory attitude of all Aboriginal people as lost and needing fixing up (by her).

As far as Andrew Bolt going into bat for her and the link she has put on her web site, that is akin to Mark Latham being the P.R. man for the Labor party. A troubled, egocentric man causing trouble wherever he goes. Reply Alert moderator Jeremy : 31 Aug 2010 3:35:51pm It is clear that indigenous Australians have been treated very poorly by our country in the past. It is clear that they are one of the most disadvantaged groups in the community and deserve the assistance of the country that has dispossessed their ancestors to counter that disadvantage and give them fair and decent opportunities to build better lives. It is clear that indigenous spirituality is very important to many indigenous people and they should have their rights to practice their private religion protected, just as everyone else's rights are protected.

That said, stopping someone else from finding spirituality in indigenous art is outrageous and will never be respected by the modern world. Nobody "owns" a religion. Nobody "owns" ancient artifacts. Tenodi is as entitled as anyone else to find meaning from, and express herself in relation to, any objects that are important to her.

Indigenous Australians should have the right to practice their religion freely. So should every other Australian.

All this talk of "theft", where no-one has been deprived of ANYTHING other than their own sense that they can deprive other people of

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something, is absurd. Reply Alert moderator Mick Hedges : 01 Sep 2010 10:03:07am You would be a white fella I am guessing Jeremy?

You might be feeling very differently if you were an Aboriginal person who has had children, land, country, language and ceremony ripped out from your life after thousands of years of balance and correct conduct.

You are a privileged Australian who has not endured the rape and pillage of your country and desecration and theft of your religious items, not to mention the bones of stolen ancestors sitting in museums across the world. Aboriginal people have endured nothing but theft and domintation and the white washing of their ancient laws and protocols by the Jeremys of the world who think it is okay because "I say so" and therefore you would show a greater level of respect if you listened to what the ELDERS are saying and stepped out of your European driven self entitlement and the made up laws that we white fellas have decided Aboriginal people have to accept. Keep in mine your world view has nothing to do with traditional Aboriginal culture and to inflict your version on a peoples who have made it very clear whatis correct condcut and whatis not places you in the same category as Tenodi and her mob of mislead troublemakers.

This is Aboriginal Law we are dealing with here. Not mine or yours with some self delegated right to espouse OUR European -invaders version of what is correct and what is not.

Maybe you'll spend time with some of those traditional people one day and get an education.

As someone else on this commentary pointed out mate, just because Aboriginal people don't put walls around their belongings and lock them up like white fellas do doesn't make it any less of a theft when someone steals from them.

How about you forward us your address and me and a mob of strangers will come over to your house and go through your stuff and decided what we want to take , it needs to be something that was created by a family member and has great significance to you and then we'll go set up a web site and tell the world how lost you are and in need of us to steal your sacred things and save you from yourself. We'll make sure to let everyone know you have not been deprived of anything and have got it all wrong because WE know what is best for YOU and you just need to put up or shut up.

Deal? Should be, That's what you are saying in your view that nothing was stolen and nobody 'owns' ancient artifacts. People like you with your self appointed view that ignored what the Elders, the senior custodians, are saying makes me ashamed to be a white fella in this country. Reply Alert moderator Clive : 01 Sep 2010 10:41:27am Re: "That said, stopping someone else from finding spirituality in indigenous art is outrageous and will never be respected by the modern world"

You mean the modern world that is full of respectful people who think they have the right to take what doesn't belong to them Jeremy? I think the threat of the modern world disapproving of Aboriginal customary law holds very little weight for Indigenous people considering the mess the modern world is making of itself and their country. Maybe it is the practices of the ancient world that the modern world needs to learn from rather than violate their Laws? You only need to ask yourself which of the two worlds, modern or ancient looked after this country we are mining the guts out of and poisoning its air and water.

Your argument is saying if you resist your abuser they won't respect you. Reply Alert moderator Jenny H : 02 Sep 2010 10:46:46am Thank you Clive, Mick and others who remain committed to challenging the European-Australian perspective even though it is the culture we all come from.

Mick the Jeremy's of the world will never 'get it' because they do not have relationships with traditional Aboriginal people. It really is that simple because until you do, you will always come from the dominating culture and its self appointed authority over Aboriginal law and its eurocentric world view. Unless you understand Aboriginal law and the role of the sacred Beings within each language group and their origins and their role and the highly sophisticated protocols around their use and representation it will seem okay for people to 'find spirituality in Indigenous art" according to Jeremy. Kind of like the micro wave version of enlightenment via cultural theft. Nothing is learnt about process and customary law but the person who believes they have the right to steal the spirituality of the Wandjina thinks they have had a spiritual experience when in fact the ego has run rampant over anothers sacred law.

Jeremy has no idea of anything other than what he has read and concluded just like Vesna Tenodis construction of Aboriginal people and her right to steal their culture and stick a parody of it in the cold mountain country.

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Clive I too have spent time with the old law keepers that you describe and thoroughly concur that 'respect' from the modern world is about as valid as stating how ill informed it is for a woman not to respect the person who has inflicted violence upon her and that the perpetrator will never respect her if she protests her right to be heard and free of the violence.

The 'modern world' has a great deal to answer for in the on going desecration of Aboriginal culture and this fake Wandjina and the theft of stories that the Katoomba community have accused Tenodi of is just another version of the story of invasion and then blaming the victims of that invasion as the ones who have the problem. Reply Alert moderator J.T. : 04 Sep 2010 8:21:22pm I came across these words spoken by Tenodi:"- "They asked me to revive the tradition which has turned into dead knowledge, and I agreed."

"They" being the invisible spirits who have told her she is here to save the Aborigines.

I'm telling you , as one who knows, that Wandjina is very very far from 'dead knowledge' and those words alone show how ignorant the woman is and how far she she has gone against Wandjina Law.

People don't need to worry about court cases and other such things regarding justice, the "dead" Wandjina is a far higher authority with much further reaching powers than this disrespectful woman will ever understand. Tenodi will certainly have a great deal to think about over the next few years and the more she turns fake Wandjinas into commercial products the higher price she will pay in what some might refer to as 'karma' but others have a very different name for. That's how the true Law of this country works and has always worked. This is Aboriginal country regardless of what has been plastered all over it since 1788.

Watch and see. Tenodi has been asked to stop. She has refused and the law of 'karma' is very exacting. She has called herself a Wandjina CEO. We think that stands for Creating Extreme Offence. Reply Alert moderator J.T. : 07 Sep 2010 1:20:33pm And then there are these words Tenodi spoke as quoted on the Sydney Morning Herald site.

''As I point out on radio, prehistoric imagery belongs to the world. Any group claiming ownership is a ludicrous proposition. We have to make this clear, otherwise we will all be held hostage by this Aboriginal nonsense.''

Prehistoric? Aboriginal nonsense?

One thing is to be sure in amongst all of this nonsense of Tenodis making, no good fortune come of her racist behavior and ignorant commentary. Stealing a LIVING image is inexcusable but demeaning its owners and custodians as 'nonsense' is folly indeed.

Reply Alert moderator Steve Solomons : 21 Oct 2010 4:10:00pm Allowing people to ban other people from exploring particular aspects of regional spirituality in their art because of their religion or race is actually illegal and known as racism and discrimination.

The Wandjina are not hidden from view. Their images are all over the internet, throughout books and, I believe, expressed in some art by aborigines.

For an artist and for anyone the images that cross the threshold of our vision belong to us as memories and expressing those memories is a part of the artistic experience.

It is not impossible that people of any nationality will experience spiritual intercourse with Wandjine if Wandjina exist.

People all over the world experience spiritual contact all the time and while different religions and beliefs desire to limit the activity to ones they control and approve of the spirits may have other ideas.

Asking that people be forbidden from connecting to aboriginal culture in a way that changes it from what it was when white man arrived is not much different from trying to protect western culture from Islamic influx that might change the mix of ideas and art. Reply Alert moderator Hal Smith :

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31 Oct 2010 1:03:18am Bottom line is that the traditional owners have told her to stop. Considering every thing else has been snatched, stolen and sold that belongs to Aboriginal people, Tenodi should practice what she preaches about caring about Aboriginal people and do what the elders are telling her.

You'd be another white man espousing this view I suppose Steve? Of course you would! It is only white fellas who think this theft and is placement of this ancient being is okay. Ty pi c al! Reply Alert moderator Richard C : 22 Oct 2010 9:03:04am Sacred image? Google Wandjina on the internet and you will find paintings of the Wandjina image offered for sale by Aboriginal and other art dealers.

If those opposing the depiction of the image of religious (mythical) images are correct, then the depiction of Jesus by persons other than Christians is wrong and the welcoming of converts to Christianity would be an outrage. Yeah right. The whole thing has the appearance of a crock of bovine excretia. Reply Alert moderator Hal Smith : 31 Oct 2010 1:06:36am Same comment to you as the one I sent below to Steve, Richard. The elders have said Stop! and this woman Tenodi says she cares deeply about Aboriginal people. So she should stop causing such distress and flagrant disregard for the people who are custodians of this image that comes from north west W.A. and does not belong any whre otherthan where THEY choose to share it. This isnt rocket science but it sure is western domination and self appointed authority at play yet again. Reply Alert moderator jenny B : 03 Nov 2010 10:48:02am "Googling" the Wandjina says it all about where your mind set and cultural knowledge is Richard. Just reading that sentence tells me you have not had significant relationships with Aboriginal people, do not know the customary Law and meaning of the Wandjina or understand that the elders, as Hal has pointed out, have said "Stop". That should be enough for it to Stop!

If you or Vesna or Steve had any understanding of how traditional Law works and what it entails, its kinship structures and obligations you would realise how ridiculously self appointed and Eurocentric your words are and how Vesna Tenodi is simply a perpetrator of cultural violation and disintegration of an ancient system that kept things in great balance and harmony for thousands of years before the "I can do what ever I like cause it is google" tribe arrived.

No wonder the elders refer to blokes like you and Steve as 'man boys' who don't respect tribal Law, have not been initiated into higher knowledge and do not know your place but feel you have the right to over ride the law men who know a great deal more about this country than you or I ever will. Reply Alert moderator Mick Hedges : 05 Nov 2010 3:59:31pm Great to hear that sense prevails!

The Katoomba Council have ordered this monstrosity to be removed and if any one is under any illusions that this Tenodi woman is the full quid, have a read about her story of spooks, ghosts and channellings and how she reckons it is white artists who need to lead the way for the fixing up of Aboriginal people!! Fair dinkum! It's on her web site which is becoming more irrational with each update:

She reckons it is the sky-gods who speak, they must have upgraded themselves from "those who know" and after reading this trollop I feel compelled to offer yet ANOTHER apology to the Wandjina Law men and women who Tenodi denies exist via what the sky gods have told her. Plenty of recognise those highly regarded law men and women and their authority of the Wandjina.

Add your www to this address and see for yourself the Ananda cult she belongs to and their belief they are the chosen ones! All you galahs who are defending her right to perpetrate this on going desecration of the sacred Wandjina should also read the "Among the Hostiles" stuff she has written. She belongs to a cult. That should tell you what this is about shouldn't it?

modrogorje.com/images/AmongTheHostiles.pdf Reply Alert moderator Evelyn Mac. : 05 Jan 2011 12:43:17pm

If anyone had any doubtsabout Vesna Tenodi's motive for stealing the Wandjina image check ut her web site.

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This is her latest attempt to exploit the scared images of the Kimberly people:

"Mini Wanjina Watchers in the Whispering Stone sculpture

A small, exclusive edition of Wanjina Watchers in the Whispering Stone – sculpture replicas:

size: 22cm high x 11cm wide, price: $880 (GST and postage within Australia included);

Each mini-sculpture is unique, with hand-made finish, and comes with User's Guide.

You can secure your mini-sculpture now, by ordering via email from: "...

She has other money spinning products in the pipeline and appears to be targeting foreigners who are ignorant of the culturally reprehensible nature of her blatant profiteering and false representations.

So to all in the posts below who defended her actions let's just say there are no surprises for the rest of us here as to what was motivating Tenodi from the start. Money and the desire to be seen as an expert in matters she has no authority or permission to be selling. Reply Alert moderator Mick Hedges : 19 Apr 2011 10:52:00am On the recently updated site, Tenodi is now writing about how badly she was treated by the Aborigines after she stole their Sacred imagery and ignored what the Elders from the Kimberly's were telling her. Here's some of her Vesna-as-the-Victim rhetoric:

"Aborigines had a chance, and they missed it. They are not interested in reconciliation, or cooperation, or negotiation. All they want is revenge."

"When, recently, one very angry local Aboriginal elder objected to our use of prehistoric imagery, I told her that I am not going to ignore my Teachers, and the Wanjinas' wishes, just to please her..."

What's the bet that this 'angry Elder" has had enough with self-appointed white folk walking hob nailed boots over their culture and sacred practices?

And what more respectful way to refer to the traditional owners and supporters of their right to remain the custodians of the Wandjina by these revealing words written in poison pen by Tenodi:

"Let the freaks come forward! Let them rant and show their faces and reveal their poisoned hearts. "

So did Tenodi "get it"? Did it click that there is an alive and very current Wandjina culture that does not need a voice-hearing European woman with her own cultural dramas to hijack it, exploit it for financial gain and self promotion.

Nooooo!

Here another line from her modrogorje website:

"In line with What Wanjinas Want, as communicated on 11/03/2011, we are developing a new range of products"

To quote Tenodi: "As was stated in earlier messages to Aborigines: the Sky-God loves you, but he is angry now." (read: Damn Aborigines they just won't obey what the white woman say! They never learn do they?!)

I think it is more likely that Tenodis disembodied voices telling her how right she is in spite of what the highly regarded Law men are saying reveals that her Sky-God is not angry but mad. Quite mad in fact.

But be warned, she tells us "I am a medium and I talk with Gods" and she has been given the job of educating Aborigines and saving them from themselves to it seems. Reply Alert moderator anon : 22 Jul 2011 4:18:43pm As a Croatian, Vesna Tenodi does not represent the views of the Croatian community . I am with the Aboriginal people on this issue.I was curious to see what the fuss was about and started to read the book and had difficulty getting past the first few pages. It clearly respresents her ill informed views , she talks about research and consultation- it was very thin on these aspects. For someone who claims to be an archeologist , the book is an appalling example of ignorance. Even with the feedback and the Aboriginal peoples attempts to explain why her approach is so offensive , she continues to beat her drum of bigotry and racism with little regard for the impact her offensive comments are having.It is very

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disturbing and the less we hear about Vesna Tenodi the better as it feeds her egocentric personality. Reply Alert moderator

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