Thursday Volume 537 8 December 2011 No. 238

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Thursday 8 December 2011

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2011 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through The National Archives website at www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/parliamentary-licence-information.htm Enquiries to The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 379 8 DECEMBER 2011 380

the ability to sell any increased production. What is the House of Commons Secretary of State doing to persuade the Chancellor that the time is right for a stimulus in the demand side Thursday 8 December 2011 of the economy as well as provisions for the supply side? The House met at half-past Ten o’clock Vince Cable: A stimulus to demand is coming from PRAYERS two sources. One is rapidly growing export markets in emerging markets, where our export growth is very [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] substantial. Manufacturers, including small and medium- sized enterprises, are taking a substantial part of that. In addition our monetary policy, which is supported by Oral Answers to Questions the Bank of England, with low short and long interest rates, quantitative easing and credit easing, is supporting demand. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS

The Secretary of State was asked— Matthew Hancock (West Suffolk) (Con): In his efforts to support manufacturing, will the Secretary of State Manufacturing agree that high executive pay that rewards not success but failure can inhibit growth, and that dealing with it is 1. Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab): an important part of supporting manufacturing, financial What recent steps his Department has taken to support services and other parts of the economy? the manufacturing sector. [85391]

The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Vince Cable: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and Skills (Vince Cable): The Government are taking action the point is very well made. There is now a remarkable to support and grow modern manufacturing in the UK consensus. We have had evidence to the inquiry that I by encouraging higher levels of innovation exports, initiated into executive pay from, among others, the business investment and technical skills. CBI, showing a high level of social responsibility and Tristram Hunt: In the last few weeks, five ceramic and an acknowledgment that much executive pay has been brick companies have gone bust in the UK, including disproportionate and unrelated to performance in the the Jesse Shirley bone china works in my constituency. past. We intend to reform that. The energy-intensive industry measures announced in the autumn statement did little for our pottery industry. Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab): Mr Speaker, Can we now have some movement from the Government on capital allowances for the ceramic sector, which is a “Germany has had an industrial strategy as well as an economic strategy. Applied with huge consistency of purpose. This has vital part of our manufacturing industry? greatly helped German industry plan for the future. Let us Vince Cable: I will look at the specific issue of the compare this with the position in the UK…In terms of industrial policy there are serious deficiencies.” ceramics industry. I know that the hon. Gentleman was involved in promoting an anti-dumping action. We Those are not my words, but those of Lord Heseltine in considered the matter carefully, and there were not a speech only a couple of weeks ago. Given yesterday’s sufficient grounds to support the rather disproportionate dire figures from the Office for National Statistics, action advocated by the European Commission. Indeed, which showed the biggest output drop in manufacturing the Chinese market share has remained pretty unchanged since April, and three times the fall forecast by analysts, over the past decade. However, we will certainly consider is it not time the Secretary of State listened to Lord what else can be done to help the industry. Heseltine and provided a comprehensive well-planned industrial strategy for the long term that supports British Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): Is the manufacturing and helps it become more competitive? Secretary of State aware of the excellent cutting-edge technology in my constituency in the aerospace industry? Is he also aware that one of the biggest problems that Vince Cable: I often wonder which Opposition Front the industry has is in attracting young people into Bencher will be courageous enough to talk about manufacturing? What can he do to encourage that? manufacturing, reminding the House that we lost 1.7 million jobs in manufacturing in 13 years of a Labour Government, Vince Cable: I was in the west country just over a and manufacturing’s share of the economy shrank from week ago looking at the aerospace industry, which is a 18% to 10%. We are addressing that, and I certainly considerable success story. My hon. Friend is quite right listen to Lord Heseltine, who has an office in my that one of the constraints is the need for skilled manpower, Department. We frequently interact, and he has some which is why in our rapidly growing apprenticeship very good suggestions. programme we are setting aside funding specifically for advanced apprenticeships in engineering skills of the We are pursuing support for innovation through the kind that firms in his constituency need. advanced technology innovation centre, pursuing support for advanced apprenticeships, on which we are doing a Mr Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Lab/Co-op): great deal, and co-financing private investment through There is an increasing body of evidence to show that the regional growth fund and the Green investment small manufacturing companies are not only having bank, which is due to start. As I announced yesterday, difficulty in accessing finance to expand but are discouraged we are also considerably increasing support for supply from applying for it because of a lack of confidence in chains using a new £125 million fund. 381 Oral Answers8 DECEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 382

Employment Law Mr Davey: As my hon. Friend knows—the Chancellor announced this in the autumn statement—we will be publishing a call for evidence on the case for and 2. Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) (Con): What against a new compensated no-fault dismissal for micros. recent progress his Department has made on its The Government have an open mind on that, but we are employment law review being undertaken as part of the especially keen to ensure that there are no unintended red tape challenge. [85392] consequences. My hon. Friend will be mindful that the 13. Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): What recent unfair dismissal law was introduced by a previous progress his Department has made on its employment Conservative Government to improve industrial relations. law review being undertaken as part of the red tape challenge. [85405] Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab): As part of the sham review of employment legislation, 17. Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): What has the Minister had any consultations with the trade recent progress his Department has made on its unions or others who believe in effective employment employment law review being undertaken as part of the legislation? If he has, what was the outcome? If he has red tape challenge. [85410] not, why not? The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey): We have Mr Davey: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of made excellent progress with our employment law review. State and I regularly meet Brendan Barber from the Our radical package includes streamlining the employment TUC. People from the trade union movement widely tribunals system, doubling the qualifying period for responded to the “Resolving Workplace Disputes” unfair dismissal, promoting early conciliation and consultation, and we have looked at those responses. mediation, and simplifying compromise agreements. We have also called for evidence on TUPE and collective Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab): The Minister redundancies as part of our wide reforms. will be aware that those who work with children and Brandon Lewis: For many years, small and medium-sized vulnerable adults can play a vital role in their protection. enterprises in particular have felt that they are caught in What is he doing to ensure that new employees, who the stranglehold of gold-plated red tape when it comes often see problems with established bad practice, are to growing and employing more people. Will the Minister protected if they decide to become whistleblowers? give grounds for optimism to companies that want the freedom to employ more people and grow, particularly Mr Davey: There is already whistleblowing legislation; with reference to TUPE, which he mentioned? I believe that it was passed by the previous Government. We would therefore advise employees in the situation Mr Davey: The Government’s strategy is to ensure that the hon. Lady describes to look at that. that we are not gold-plating. I am sure that my hon. Friend will have been pleased that on 23 November we Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): The Secretary published a call for evidence on the TUPE regulations, of State and the Minister are obviously at loggerheads which he mentioned. It is available on the Department’s with Downing street over their proposals on changes to website and I encourage all right hon. and hon. Members employment law, and have been forced to consult on to respond. no-fault dismissal. Lord Heseltine believes that such a Mr Marcus Jones: I recently met local business people measure would at a constituency event sponsored by the Federation of “make life rougher and tougher for large numbers of people”; Small Businesses, and they told me that they were Citizens Advice described it as a rogue’s charter; only apprehensive about taking on additional employees because 6% of SMEs consider employment law as a factor when of the culture of employment tribunals, to which employees employing people; and the Secretary of State himself can take even the most spurious claims without any has said that there was already a “reasonably good personal risk whatever. What can the Minister do to balance” between rights and flexibility in Britain. So address that issue, which, if tackled, would encourage why is his Department—the Department for no growth— more employers to take on extra staff? trying to make it easier to fire rather than hire people? Mr Davey: We have listened to both employer and employee concerns about the cost and complexity of Mr Davey: The truth is that the Government are going to employment tribunals, and believe that our making it easier to hire people. We understand the reforms will make a positive difference to both parties. importance of fair, efficient and flexible labour markets. We have set out our conclusions and our response to the We will protect those because that is in our country’s “Resolving Workplace Disputes” consultation. Critical interest. I should tell the hon. Gentleman that we are aspects of our new approach include a major new working very closely with colleagues across the coalition emphasis on mediation and a new pre-claim conciliation on all aspects of our employment law review. This service by ACAS, and, finally, a fundamental review of coalition is more together than the Labour party was the rules and procedures is now being undertaken by when it was in government. Lord Justice Underhill. Innovation and Research Julian Smith: Compensated no-fault dismissal could be a great fillip to very small businesses and the employment market. Will the Minister outline the timetable for the 3. Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): When he Government’s call for evidence and reassure the House plans to publish his innovation and research strategy. that he is completely open-minded on the policy? [85393] 383 Oral Answers8 DECEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 384

14. Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con): When he fine words are not matched by action. The director of plans to publish his innovation and research strategy. the CBI recently described their action on solar panels [85406] as the “third smack about the head” The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David for investors in renewables. In China, the US, India, Willetts): With permission, Mr Speaker, I propose to Germany and Finland Governments are taking action answer this question with question 13— to create large-scale technological and market opportunities in renewables, ICT, pharma and nanotechnology. What Mr Speaker: I am reluctant to argue with Two Brains, real action will the Government take as a result of the but I think the link is with question 14. report?

Mr Willetts: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Mr Willetts: The report that we are publishing today I am pleased to announce that the Government have is a list of the actions that we have already taken and the today published our innovation and research strategy further actions that we are proposing to take. That for growth. includes technology innovation centres, including specific provision for renewables. It also includes the reintroduction Dr Huppert: I thank the Minister for publishing that of the Smart awards, which were run into the sand statement. In 2004 I was awarded a DTI Smart award under the previous Government, and a research and for innovation. That excellent scheme supported small development tax credit that will be worth more than companies in developing risky innovative products, but £1 billion to companies large and small. over the years the financial support available was watered down and success rates fell. Will his strategy reverse Exports (SMEs) that and support SMEs that have not been supported by the Technology Strategy Board? 4. Gordon Henderson (Sittingbourne and Sheppey) (Con): What steps his Department is taking to help Mr Willetts: Indeed, and I believe that my hon. small and medium-sized businesses to access export Friend’s proposal was for a biotech company that collected markets. [85395] virgin female fruit flies, which I am sure was an excellent example of curiosity-driven research. I can confirm that The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation we are bringing back the Smart awards scheme on a and Skills (Mr Mark Prisk): UK Trade & Investment nationwide basis, properly financed. has set out a new export strategy of some £45 million, which will double the number of small companies helped Graham Evans: Fostering research and innovation is each year. The strategy includes five financial products, absolutely essential to growth and to rebalancing our bespoke services for middle-sized firms and a collaborative economy, and I am proud that the Government are approach to accessing new export markets. doing so much to support Daresbury science innovation campus in my constituency, including the announcement Gordon Henderson: I welcome that assurance from of a new enterprise zone. Can the Minister outline what the Minister, but an exporter in my constituency has for support will be provided for small and medium-sized years been obtaining certificates of origin from our businesses in this area? local chamber of commerce, using a formal declaration from his supplier. Recently he applied for a new certificate, Mr Willetts: I recognise the strong support that my but was told that one could not be issued without a hon. Friend gives Daresbury, which I visited with him declaration from the manufacturer of the goods. That only a couple of months ago. Indeed, we will put more is causing my constituent a big problem, because his funding into Daresbury because of its excellent role in supplier is loth to provide details about his manufacturer national computing infrastructure, and we will support for fear that my constituent might obtain his goods small businesses in particular through the infrastructure direct. What can my hon. Friend do to make it easier for and innovation plan that we have launched today. exporters to export—and when changes are made to the rules, can exporters at least be given adequate notice? Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab): Does the Minister accept that we can have no research and innovation Mr Prisk: I am concerned about the instance that my without UK postgraduates? His strategy says nothing hon. Friend mentions. The rules on certification of about the decline in taught postgraduate courses or the origin have not changed, but they are subject to local implications of fees at postgraduate level in the UK. management and interpretation. It sounds as if that might be the problem. I am keen to help all exporters, so Mr Willetts: We are committed to postgraduate education perhaps my hon. Friend will submit further details to in the UK, and of course we will continue to review the me and I will look personally into the matter. implications for it as our higher education reforms come through, but at the moment we are seeing an Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op): The increase in the number of postgraduate students in the Government have cut by 25% the funding for small and UK—a record of which we can be proud. medium-sized enterprises to attend vital overseas trade shows to help them win new business. How will that Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): help exports? Eighteen months into a Government supposedly focused on growth, we finally have a paper focused on innovation— Mr Prisk: As I said at the beginning, the new export the engine of growth. We welcome it and will consider it strategy enables us to double the number of companies carefully. However, we have seen that this Government’s that we reach and support. In addition, five new finance 385 Oral Answers8 DECEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 386 products have been put on to the market. We have enormous challenges, which is why the Prime Minister commitments of £242 million for those products, so launched an ambitious new life sciences strategy on there is a positive layer of action, and we can make real Monday. That includes a £180 million catalyst fund to progress in the years to come. aid commercialisation of new discoveries. We have also improved the regime for clinical trials in the interests of Mr Chuka Umunna (Streatham) (Lab): At a previous patients and opened up the NHS to innovation. Question Time, the Business Secretary was right to say that, historically, SMEs have not been as involved in Margot James: I very much welcome the life sciences exporting as larger companies. With that in mind, earlier strategy published by the Government earlier this week. this year he launched the export enterprise finance What plans does my right hon. Friend now have to guarantee scheme, a programme run out of his Department, support the development of geographic clusters that and we were told that that would help lots of SMEs to will foster collaboration between industry, the NHS and access export finance. Will the Secretary of State tell us academia? how many companies have been helped by the scheme since it was announced with a great fanfare 10 months Mr Willetts: My hon. Friend has absolutely described ago? what a cluster is; I congratulate her. We support them. They are important for innovation and growth. Indeed, Mr Prisk: Sadly, the hon. Gentleman will have to in the proposals published today, we are talking about make do with the Minister of State rather than the making it easier for groups of institutions to come Secretary of State. We have been able to deliver some together to bid for funding from research councils, and £242 million across the five products, and we have also also our enlightened Treasury has agreed that in future been able to ensure that with the pilot, the export there will not be VAT on cost-sharing arrangements in enterprise finance guarantee scheme, in which there which groups of institutions come together to share have been a number of changes, we have been able to services in the interests of efficiency. deliver some £2 million. It is important to bear in mind the fact that the export enterprise finance guarantee Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): The scheme is a pilot; the other four are actually full products. Minister will know that in life sciences and many other areas of innovation there are lots of small companies, Mr Umunna: The answer to my question is that just often in partnership with universities. Will he comment four companies have benefited from that export scheme. on the fact that many of those partnerships tell me that That is another example of the failure of the Minister’s with the demise of the regional development agencies Department to improve access to finance for small they have no access to a large amount of money held in businesses. Of course access to finance in general helps Europe, essentially for innovation? There are billions of SMEs to grow and expand into different export markets, pounds that they cannot access. and we were told that Project Merlin would ease credit conditions for small businesses—but net lending to Mr Willetts: The catalyst fund that I referred to in my businesses by banks has contracted in nine of the past previous answer is aimed specifically at getting financial 12 months under this Government. Merlin failed, so support to new start-ups, and will help finance them they are now giving credit easing a try, but the effectiveness through the so-called “valley of death” before they can of credit easing is dependent on whether the banks get commercial funding. At the Competitiveness Council choose to participate. What guarantees can the Minister in Brussels on Tuesday, I argued that European research give us that they will participate in the scheme and funding should be more easily accessible for small and increase net lending to businesses as a result? medium-sized enterprises. The best way to achieve that is by cutting bureaucracy and the complexity in the Mr Prisk: In the first three quarters, the numbers on current arrangements for accessing European funding. net lending stand at £66 million. [Interruption.] What I That is what I urged on the Commission. am trying to say to the hon. Gentleman is that we are committed, through Merlin, to ensure that lending this year is greater than last year. He needs to be careful in Bank of Credit and Commerce International this area, because, as he knows, such schemes are subject to demand. [Interruption.] He asked about credit easing, 6. Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): What recent steps and I will come to that point. I say to the hon. Gentleman he has taken to ensure that the liquidation of Bank of that the £20 billion that the Chancellor has put forward Credit and Commerce International is complete. is substantially important and will bring about an important [85397] increase. What the Opposition need to remember is that we are actually delivering an increase in lending this The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, year over last year. They did not deliver that. We are, Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey): My right and that is the difference. hon. Friend the Secretary of State wrote to the BCCI liquidators about the progress of the BCCI liquidation Life Science Discoveries earlier this year, following his meeting with the right hon. Gentleman. I understand that a closure plan has 5. Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): What steps his been published on the liquidators’ website at www.bcci.info. Department is taking to support the commercialisation This website is updated as and when there are any of new discoveries in life sciences. [85396] developments in the liquidation.

The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David Keith Vaz: It is now 20 years since the bank went into Willetts): The UK life sciences sector employs 170,000 liquidation, in which time the liquidators, Deloitte Touche, people with a turnover of £50 billion, but it is facing its solicitors, Lovells, and other professionals have received 387 Oral Answers8 DECEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 388

£1.2 billion in fees. Will the Minister thank the Secretary Regional Growth Fund of State for writing that letter and ask him whether he would be prepared to secure his place in history, or at 8. Esther McVey (Wirral West) (Con): What least to act as Santa Claus to the victims of BCCI, so assessment he has made of the effect of the regional that finally this bank can be closed and the liquidators growth fund on private sector investment. [85399] will cease to bleed it of the last remnants of its money? The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Mr Davey: I think that my right hon. Friend already Skills (Vince Cable): In April we announced that the has his place in history. The right hon. Member for regional growth fund would conditionally support Leicester East (Keith Vaz) knows that the BCCI creditors 50 projects, amounting to £450 million of Government have been repaid more than 85% of what they were investment and leveraging an estimated £2.7 billion of owed at the outset of liquidation, and a final dividend— private sector investment. In October we announced estimated to be about 3%—is expected to be paid in that 126 projects would receive conditional funding of April or May 2012. He will also know that control of £950 million, leveraging an estimated £6 billion of private the BCCI liquidation is a matter for the liquidation sector investment. committee, and ultimately the courts, not for the Secretary Esther McVey: I welcome the regional growth fund, of State, and that the liquidators are trying to bring this in rounds 1 and 2 of which, companies on Merseyside, long period to an end. including Stobart, Pilkington, Liverpool Vision and Trinity Mirror, have done very well. Wirral Investment Network, a business network for smaller companies, Business Start-ups wants to know by what routes it can apply to the regional growth fund. 7. Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): Vince Cable: Our estimate is that roughly a third of What steps he is taking to assist unemployed people to all regional growth fund money is going to SMEs, and start new businesses. [85398] there are several routes through which it goes. First, there are packets of SME loans, one of which was in The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation Liverpool, while another is in Plymouth. Indeed, I saw and Skills (Greg Clark): The new enterprise allowance is that one a couple of weeks ago, and it is going now available nationwide and is providing access to extraordinarily well. There are specifically tailored business mentors and financial support to help unemployed schemes—for example, the RBS-HSBC scheme linked people start their own businesses. On 14 November we to asset finance—and programme bids, as in Manchester, launched My New Business, a service on the Business all of which are targeted at SMEs. Link website, providing help for everyone looking to start a new business. Mr Geoffrey Robinson (Coventry North West) (Lab): The Secretary of State will be aware that in the last round an SME in Coventry was turned down for a Harriett Baldwin: As QinetiQ in my constituency has major investment from the regional growth fund. Despite restructured, many of the brilliant brains employed the fact that the council and, more importantly, the there have started new businesses in a range of different local enterprise partnership were in full support, the areas. May I invite the Minister to Malvern to help back company was turned down—I am not particularly my campaign for phase 4 of the Malvern Hills science grumbling about the decision, disappointed though we park as a further incubator? were, of course—on the grounds that the ownership was wrong. Will the Minister put in place better criteria Greg Clark: It would be a delight to visit Malvern. I for sifting schemes locally and regionally? The company know that my hon. Friend is trying—successfully, given wasted an awful lot of time and money in preparing its the number of high-tech businesses there—to market bid. Malvern as a cyber-valley. We know that silicon valley has prospered because of the links between existing Vince Cable: I would certainly be happy to look into high-tech firms and new ones, and I know that that is the background of that particular case. As the hon. what she wants to achieve. Gentleman knows, we have an impartial process. Applications come to Ministers and then go through Sir Ian Wrigglesworth and Lord Heseltine, who sift and Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab): assess them properly. There is a new round for the What guarantees can the Minister provide that the regional growth fund, and if the project that the hon. banks will actually lend to newly formed businesses run Gentleman mentions can be reworked, we would certainly by previously unemployed people? They are not lending be very happy to look at it. to existing businesses, so why should they lend to new ones? Graphene 9. George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con): How he Greg Clark: As the Minister of State, Department for proposes that his Department’s investment in graphene Business, Innovation and Skills, my hon. Friend the will be spent. [R] [85400] Member for Hertford and Stortford (Mr Prisk), said earlier, the intention is—and the banks are delivering The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David on this—that they increase lending to small businesses Willetts): Graphene is the thinnest, lightest, strongest year on year. That is part of the loan guarantee scheme and most conductive material known to man. Its discovery announced in the autumn statement, and we are determined in Manchester in 2001 is testament to our strong science to deliver on it. base and opens up a wide range of possibilities. That is 389 Oral Answers8 DECEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 390 why we have committed £50 million to create a new UK The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David graphene hub to focus on its commercialisation. The Willetts): Yes, we have made an assessment of the Engineering and Physical Sciences Research Council benefits to business of investing in low-cost radar satellites. and the Technology Strategy Board are now developing This is an important investment of £21 million, which a detailed business case, which will be submitted to the we hope will enable business investment to follow on, Government shortly. We expect funding to start next including possibly in my hon. Friend’s constituency. year. Mr Speaker: I was referring to the item, not to a George Freeman: I welcome that announcement. Does human being. I call Penny Mordaunt. the Minister agree that the investment of £50 million in a world-class hub is testament to the Government’s Penny Mordaunt: Thank you, Mr Speaker. serious commitment to a rebalanced economy and a Earth observation satellites are critical in helping regional growth strategy? Will he agree to place a sample developing countries manage humanitarian and of graphene—like this—in the Library for the edification environmental crises. Does my right hon. Friend see of us all? merit in giving such countries British technology or satellite time—provided it is the best for the job, and it Mr Speaker: The use of such props is on the whole usually is—rather than having ring-fenced funding to discouraged, but we will let the hon. Gentleman off on purchase such services from a third country? this occasion. Mr Willetts: That is a very interesting idea. It is Mr Willetts: I do not think that that is quite life absolutely right that British satellite technology plays a science—nor is it supposed to be life-size, because it is greater role than is recognised in ensuring that we have one atom. I have some graphene in my office, and I information about the sites of disasters. Earlier this would be very happy to show it to people who want to year we chaired the disaster monitoring committee, know what has been discovered. I absolutely agree with which ensured that satellite images were immediately my hon. Friend. As a result of the Chancellor’s available after the tsunami in Japan and after disasters announcement we are now able to invest in labs that will elsewhere in the world. There are certainly imaginative ensure that researchers can develop and research the ideas through which this role could be enhanced. applications of this important material. Adult and Community Learning Mr Speaker: May I appeal to Members not to pass that rather unglamorous specimen around the Chamber? 11. Sajid Javid (Bromsgrove) (Con): What steps he is The hon. Member for Mid Norfolk (George Freeman), taking to promote adult and community learning. to whom I have been generous, should secrete his graphene [85402] away, and behave with the tact and discretion for which he was previously renowned. The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning (Mr John Hayes): The Government are Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): I enthusiastically committed to adult and community beg to disagree, Mr Speaker. Graphene is very glamorous, learning. That is why we have protected the £210 million and it is a fantastic discovery, made in Manchester. The a year adult safeguarded budget. On 1 December we Minister will be aware from his appearances before the announced our intention to devolve its planning and Science and Technology Committee that there is a huge accountability, so that local people are at the heart of imbalance between the public investment in science in deciding the learning offer. We will pilot different community the golden triangle between Oxford, Cambridge and learning trust models in 2012-13. London, and investment in the rest of the country. Is this not a great opportunity to invest the vast bulk of Sajid Javid: The Minister has been an excellent advocate that £50 million in Manchester, where the two Nobel of adult community learning. May I ask him how his laureates discovered graphene? pilot on community learning trusts is working at the moment? In particular, how has he engaged local Mr Willetts: The hon. Gentleman makes a clear case. communities to improve adult community learning? Of course, the issue is now being investigated by the EPSRC and the TSB, but we recognise the crucial role Mr Hayes: Weknow,asWBYeatsknew,thateducation that Manchester played in the discovery, and I am sure lights a fire that burns brightly. It certainly burns brightly that its role will continue. in the hearts of Ministers. We have much to do in respect of adult community learning, which was derided Mr Speaker: Of course I readily concede that something by the last Government as mainly holiday Spanish. unglamorous can also be very important. I call Penny That was how the former Secretary of State described Mordaunt. [Laughter.] Order. I am delighted that the it. We will work with local communities. The first House is in such a good mood. meeting to discuss models and timings will take place one week from today, and we intend to publish a prospectus in spring 2012. We are delivering. Radar Satellites Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): The Minister 10. Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con): and I have jousted about Yeats before, and I should tell What assessment he has made of the benefit to UK him that he did not share the Minister’s politics, which business of the investment in low-cost radar satellites might disappoint him. There is a danger of his policy announced in the autumn statement. [85401] becoming a fig leaf around adult and community learning. 391 Oral Answers8 DECEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 392

Will he undertake to work from the centre with other Vince Cable: That is exactly the kind of project that ministerial colleagues, particularly for older people in the bank will be considering, and a team of people are care homes because of the incredible impact that adult already preparing projects for submission. and community learning can have on health outcomes Apprenticeships for those older people?

Mr Hayes: One reason why I, along with the Secretary 15. Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): What steps he is of State, have defended adult and community learning taking to ensure that apprenticeships offer a route to is due to its effect on things such as physical well-being, higher-level skills. [85407] community health, mental health and so forth. It is certainly true that we will need to take those things into The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong full account in respect of the offer. I give that answer Learning (Mr John Hayes): We are committed to expanding mindful that the hon. Gentleman, who was my predecessor, the proportion of apprenticeships that are at advanced was himself a champion of adult and community learning. and higher levels. Provisional 2010-11 data show that the number of advanced-level apprenticeships has risen Green Investment Bank by about two thirds. We have allocated some £19 million to support the development of new higher apprenticeships, which will dramatically extend the range of opportunities 12. Glenda Jackson (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab): for apprenticeships up to degree level, and will create at What recent progress he has made on the Green least an additional 19,000 apprenticeships at the higher investment bank. [85404] level. The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Robert Halfon: Will the Minister support the Skills (Vince Cable): The development of the Green parliamentary apprentice school which I founded with investment bank is making good progress. Prior to its the charity New Deal of the Mind, and will he consider establishment, the Government are planning to invest the similar idea of establishing a Government apprentice in projects from April 2012, including in renewable school using public contracts? Figures from the House energy and the non-domestic energy efficiency and waste of Commons Library show that if just one apprentice sectors. We will announce the process for deciding the were hired for every £1 million public procurement, location of the bank shortly. 280,000 apprenticeships would be created instantly and youth unemployment would be cut by a quarter. Glenda Jackson: There are reports that the Government have dramatically lowered their funding for this potentially Mr Hayes: I take the view that Government have a innovative venture, so when, if ever, will what threatens role and that procurement has a role as well. For that to become a mere piggy bank be open for business? reason I have established a ministerial champions group for apprenticeships involving 14 Departments, we have Vince Cable: Those reports are simply incorrect. The explored the development of kitemarking for good Government’s commitment was for £3 billion, and that employers who use apprenticeships and supply the public remains the case. We expect the bank will have leveraged sector, and we have provided streamlined informational in another £15 billion by the end of this Parliament. skills for companies that want to supply Government. That is our commitment, which we will stick to. I am relieved that Hampstead and Kilburn are not adding My hon. Friend has been a great champion of their names to the list of cities hoping to attract the apprenticeships, and has even taken on an apprentice Green investment bank. himself. Let me again urge all Members to take on their own apprentices. Mike Crockart (Edinburgh West) (LD): I welcome the Secretary of State’s statement of a few moments 16. Mark Lancaster (Milton Keynes North) (Con): ago. May I press him to tell me and the poised Edinburgh What plans he has to encourage small and medium- Green investment bank bid team when he will publish sized businesses to offer apprenticeships. [85408] the criteria for deciding the location for the bank and what those criteria are likely to contain? The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning (Mr John Hayes): As you can see, Mr Speaker, Vince Cable: We shall set out the process in the next I am irrepressible. few days. There are a great many bids from different We have recently announced a new financial incentive cities and, indeed, some quite small towns around the of £1,500, which will help up to 40,000 small employers country, all of which must be assessed properly and who have not previously engaged in the programme to fairly. take on a young apprentice. We are taking radical steps to speed up and simplify the process for employers, and Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ to remove unnecessary paperwork and bureaucracy. Co-op): Will the Secretary of State confirm that investment in wind turbine technology is a potential recipient of Mark Lancaster: While the Minister’s talents are Green investment bank funding? Gamesa has been obvious, some of us have hidden talents. I, for instance, considering locations in various parts of the United am a pyrotechnician, and ran the family firework company Kingdom for a major scheme with which it is proceeding, for many years. We were always keen to take on apprentices, and has identified Leith, which is in my constituency, as but it was hard to keep them in a long-term skilled job, a possible location. Will the Secretary of State work and the paperwork involved in taking them on in the with the Scottish Government to try to bring this important first place was very extensive. What can be done to help facility to Scotland and to the UK? the situation? 393 Oral Answers8 DECEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 394

Mr Hayes: As my hon. Friend will know, the number Government but across-the-board tax cuts so that they of apprenticeships has risen by 70% in his constituency. can get on with running their own business in their own That does credit to him, and, as I think he will acknowledge, way? still greater credit to me. My hon. Friend asked what more we would do. We Vince Cable: Many businesses, as I have just said, will strip out all unnecessary health and safety requirements, receive substantial tax cuts, which is absolutely right. As we will introduce those incentive payments to compensate the economy progresses, there will be more, and there is small businesses, and I am determined to streamline also an exercise in tax simplification, the results of every stage of the process. Tackling youth unemployment which will be announced at the beginning of next year. is a top priority for the Government: that is why we are focusing the apprenticeship budget on young people, Topical Questions which is where it can make the most difference. T1. [85416] Sajid Javid (Bromsgrove) (Con): If he will College Enhanced Renewal Grant make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

18. George Eustice (Camborne and Redruth) (Con): The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and What progress his Department has made in assessing Skills (Vince Cable): The Department has a key role in applications by further education colleges for phase 2 supporting the rebalancing of the economy and business, of the enhanced renewal grant. [85411] to deliver growth while increasing skills and learning.

The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Sajid Javid: May I thank the Minister for Further Learning (Mr John Hayes): In August, I was delighted Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning for visiting my to confirm that the Government would make an extra constituency of Bromsgrove and opening a £3.5 million £100 million available for a two-year college capital extension to North East Worcestershire college? Will he investment programme. The programme was launched update the House on what other investment plans he by the Skills Funding Agency in September, applications has for colleges up and down the country, and how that were invited by November, and the agency is aiming to will promote young people’s life chances? announce decisions on the enhanced renewal grant before Christmas. Speedy action, Mr Speaker: alacrity, The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong combined with perspicacity. Learning (Mr John Hayes): I said a few moments ago that we have made £100 million available. It will be George Eustice: Cornwall college in my constituency spent quickly, and that will affect colleges across the has recently used a new technique to refurbish and country. I should like to thank my hon. Friend for being reclad one of the old buildings on its estate at a fraction such a generous host when I visited NEW college in his of the cost of a rebuild, and would like to repeat the constituency. My hon. Friend the Member for Redditch process on some of the rest of its estate. Does the (Karen Lumley) was in attendance as well, because the Minister agree that procedures of that kind should be college serves both constituencies. On that occasion, I given priority? had an opportunity to ride a Harley Davidson motorbike, and like that bike, the career of my hon. Friend the Mr Hayes: My hon. Friend, who is a great champion Member for Bromsgrove (Sajid Javid) is powerful, speedy of his local college and a great local Member of Parliament, and impressive. has written to me about that very matter. I have his letter here. I am pleased to say that I have arranged to Mr Speaker: We are all intrigued by the Minister’s speak to him on Monday about the details of his exploits, I am sure. question, and I can also tell him that as soon as I became the Minister we announced new capital funding. Shabana Mahmood (Birmingham, Ladywood) (Lab): I do not say this with any joy—I say it more in sorrow It is exactly one year on from the Government’s trebling and anger—but what a contrast with the last Government, of tuition fees to £9,000, and we can clearly see the who presided over a capital funding debacle. disastrous impact of that decision. UCAS applications are down by 15%, and the Government have had to Business Taxation introduce the chaotic core and margin model to make up for the fact that they got their sums wrong. Is the 19. Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): What Minister for Universities and Science aware that he has assessment he has made of the effect on the growth of created a perfect storm for our world-class higher education small and medium-sized enterprises of planned sector, and why is he prepared to put our world-leading reductions in the level of taxation; and if he will make reputation at risk? a statement. [85413] The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Willetts): Our reforms will ensure that universities are Skills (Vince Cable): Many SMEs will benefit from well financed, and that there is more funding available lower corporation tax, reforms to research and development for access than ever before. Perhaps the hon. Lady tax credits, relief of business rates, increases in employer would explain to the House why she proposes to double national insurance contribution thresholds and tax fees and, at the same time, reduce the funding available advantages in the 22 new enterprise zones. for scholarships and access money.

Mr Leigh: We already have the longest tax code in T2. [85417] Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old the world. Does the Secretary of State accept that what Southwark) (LD): It is clear to me that the more young business wants are not more allowances from the people and adults hear about the actual facts about the 395 Oral Answers8 DECEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 396 funding for universities, the more likely they are to under any Government. What I can tell the House is apply. Given that there are five weeks left before the that the total amount of money going into access conventional cut-off date for applications, will the funding has increased significantly because of the increase Minister tell the House what the Government propose in fees. It is now running at a higher level—£200 million to do to make sure that young people and adults, higher—than ever before. whether full or part-time students, understand the benefits of applying to university. T6. [85421] Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) Mr Willetts: I thank my right hon. Friend for the (Con): I am sure that my hon. Friend the Minister for excellent work that he has done on this important Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning will subject. I can report to the House that 90% of schools agree with me not only about his own irrepressibility and colleges have been visited by graduates explaining but also about the importance for economic growth of the facts of the system. In addition, they are reaching our meeting the training needs of businesses. What out to parents evenings. Every hon. Member has received measures is he taking to reduce red tape and excessive a copy of the DVD that has gone to every school with micro-management in respect of further education colleges the information that shows that no student has to pay —a trend that so characterised the last Government—in up front to go to university. order that they can respond to our economic needs?

T4. [85419] Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): When Mr Hayes: The Foster report described the last the Secretary of State was talking about the running Government’s policy as a galaxy of bureaucracy, oversight down of British industry, he failed to mention that, and inspection. By contrast, we are cutting red tape, in the 1980s, the Thatcher Government employed streamlining funding systems, and giving colleges greater MacGregor to come over here and close large parts of discretion to respond to the demands of employers and the steel industry, and he almost destroyed the whole the needs of learners. I have recently published a document mining industry. Does the Secretary of State not realise setting this out in detail. Copies are available in the that, surrounded by all those Tories, he is a mini- Library of the House—and signed copies by application. MacGregor of his day, carrying out the dirty work of the Tories and overseeing the demise of the rest of British industry? He does it not for the money that T7. [85422] Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): MacGregor got but for a ministerial car and a red box. Northern Ireland is the only region where employment law is devolved, an anomaly that in the past has led to Vince Cable: After the hon. Gentleman’s previous the Northern Ireland position being largely ignored in contribution, I set up a visit to his constituency, which the formulation of UK policy both in the transposition will take place, I think, in the first quarter of next year. I of European Union employment directives and in can discuss these matters in depth with him then, which national agreements. Will the Minister assure us that he I think is rather more than my Labour predecessor did. will work with the Minister for Employment and The hon. Gentleman has been a Member for a long Learning in Northern Ireland to provide a framework time, but he has overlooked the fact that in the 13 years in which Northern Ireland interests can be addressed in of Labour Government there was a decline in any future developments in this area? manufacturing output averaging 0.5% a year.

T3. [85418] David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con): The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Returning to 2011, what steps is my right hon. Friend Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey): The hon. taking to create the conditions for the pharmaceutical Lady is absolutely right: our Department looks at the and life sciences sectors in the United Kingdom, majority of employment law for the rest of Great including AstraZeneca in Macclesfield, to be able to Britain but not for Northern Ireland. However, I can compete more strongly in the global marketplace? assure her that officials from my Department are in regular contact with their counterparts in the Department Mr Willetts: The life sciences strategy we produced for Employment and Learning in Northern Ireland. earlier this week aims to rise to the challenge my hon. Examples of that include frequent conversations during Friend identifies. In particular, there is an imaginative the consultation on resolving workplace disputes, and proposal under which 20 compounds that have been close working between the employment agency standards identified by AstraZeneca but are not currently being inspectorate and the equivalent team in Northern Ireland. commercialised will be open to research by others, with Indeed, we are currently working with it to understand a view to using them to create the medicines of the the impact of the agency workers directive, and we will future. continue to do so. T5. [85420] Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): Bolton university is excellent at recruiting and retaining large T9. [85424] Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con): Will the numbers of students from disadvantaged backgrounds. Minister update me on what efforts are being taken to It is worried, however, about the future of the widening attract inward investment into enterprise zones such as participation premium, which makes up 6.7% of its that in Warton in my constituency? teaching grant. Can the Minister reassure them that that premium will be fully funded in 2012, 2013 and beyond? The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Mark Prisk): We have made good progress Mr Willetts: We have to look at the Higher Education on enterprise zones. I know that locally there is a team Funding Council for England teaching grant year by working together with UK Trade & Investment on year, so no assurances can be given about the total specific live commercial projects, and I am hopeful of teaching grant at this stage. That has never been possible real progress in the next few months. 397 Oral Answers8 DECEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 398

T8. [85423] Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) a great opportunity and I hope it will be one of those (Lab): Last week we heard how Project Merlin had areas where the Labour party will set aside the posturing failed and was going to be bailed out by credit easing. and work with us positively. How many banks have signed up to credit easing, how many small businesses will be helped by that, and will it Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): be more successful than the business growth fund was? I have been raising the issue of small businesses’ failure to be paid by large contractors. The Minister of State, Vince Cable: The Merlin project certainly did not Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, the succeed in its central objective, which was to achieve hon. Member for Hertford and Stortford (Mr Prisk) growth in gross lending by banks. There has been a was good enough to write to me, but he said that more contraction in net lending for a variety of reasons, not than 50% of the problem occurred because there continued least the fact that many companies are holding more to be a problem with effective customer management on cash. Credit easing will be commenced soon. The Treasury the part of the supplier. In other words, the large will maintain a metric of performance by individual companies were to be managed by the small company. banks, and this will lower the cost of capital for many of Is it not time that we actually did what the Electrical their customers. The cost of borrowing and covenanting, Contractors Association has called for and make it as much as access, has now become the central concern. compulsory for 30 days’ payment to be in every single contract for a small supplier? John Pugh (Southport) (LD): Will the Minister explain how revising TUPE will actually create more jobs, as Mr Prisk: In fact, the Labour party tried to do that at opposed to facilitating outsourcing? the very beginning—in 1998, I believe—and failed. What we are doing is using our procurement powers to Mr Davey: My hon. Friend will know that there are make sure that government sets the standard. I think mixed views in the business community about whether that that is the best way, but I am always happy to look or not the current TUPE regulations are gold-plated, at unreasonable behaviour by large corporations and I which is why we have called for evidence. We have not would be happy to look at any further details that the published a consultation with specific proposals as we hon. Gentleman can provide. want to have evidence from all stakeholders, so that when we make our proposals in a future consultation Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): The county of Avon was they will be well evidenced. abolished in April 1996. The Somerset village of Shipham was never part of Avon and has always been in Somerset, Mr John Denham (Southampton, Itchen) (Lab): May so it is a constant irritation to my constituents that post, I draw the Secretary of State’s attention to the £150 million including that from all Government agencies and any worth of entirely private investment that Associated organisation using the Royal Mail’s database, is addressed British Ports wants to spend now to equip Southampton to Shipham in Avon. When complaints are made to the for the next generation of container ships? Instead of Royal Mail’s headquarters, they elicit the reply, “We like creating and supporting 2,000 or more jobs, this project to give users an historical perspective.” That is complete is mired in red tape in the Department for Environment, tosh. The Royal Mail does not update its database and Food and Rural Affairs and its agencies. Will he speak will not correct inaccuracies in the address details. Will to his colleagues to try to get this vital project under the Minister wade into this ancient, decades-old dispute way? on behalf of the long-suffering villagers and get this bizarre— Vince Cable: Yes, I will certainly do that—that seems a very helpful intervention. As the right hon. Gentleman Mr Speaker: Order. I think we have got the thrust knows, logistics, including ports, were a major part of of it. our work in the growth review. A lot is now happening to open up British ports and invest in them, and I will Mr Davey: I am very grateful for my hon. Friend’s certainly pursue his inquiry. question. She will be aware that her constituents in this village share their concerns about postcode issues with Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): I am very much many other residents in many other constituencies across looking forward to welcoming the Minister of State, the UK. I have raised this matter in the past with Royal Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, the Mail, and it believes that the costs of changing its hon. Member for Hertford and Stortford (Mr Prisk), systems would be disproportionate. Of course I will who is responsible for business and enterprise, to the raise her point, but I do not want to raise her expectations. festival for manufacturing in my constituency to celebrate what we have achieved in the constituency, and to Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): The responsibility promote more investment and employment. But one to promote adult and community learning in Northern area that we need to focus on is the supply chain, so Ireland is a devolved matter. Has the Minister considered what are the Government planning to do to help with linking with Northern Ireland’s Department for that? Employment and Learning to provide a strategy for the mutual benefit of both the UK mainland and Northern Mr Prisk: I am pleased to say that not only will I be Ireland? able to attend the Stroud manufacturing festival, which is an excellent example of the initiatives taken by those Mr Hayes: I do have regular discussions with my on this side of the House, but the Government have put counterparts in the devolved Administrations. The point in place a £125 million supply chain initiative. It builds that the hon. Gentleman makes is an excellent one and I on the work we have done in the automotive sector, it is shall take action on it following questions today. 399 Oral Answers8 DECEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 400

Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Moorlands) (Con): I am could not confirm that it was going ahead and he still afraid that I am going to take the Minister back to the looks as bemused as he did then even though it is his issue of postcodes, as many of my constituents contact responsibility, but the Arts Minister has told me that it me with their frustrations about the very wide range of will go ahead as long as I do not mention it to anybody postcodes in the Staffordshire Moorlands, which leads else. Will the Secretary of State please now inform us to problems with insurance, cold weather payments and exactly what is happening on the artists resale right? the emergency services failing to find people. So would he be able to meet me and local representatives to Mr Davey rose— discuss the possibility of creating and setting up a Staffordshire Moorlands postcode to deal with these Chris Bryant: The Secretary of State. problems? Vince Cable: I believe it will go ahead; I have made Mr Davey: I am always happy to meet hon. Members further inquiries since the hon. Gentleman’s original and I am sure we can arrange that. Ahead of that question. meeting, however, I want to ensure that the hon. Lady and her constituents who will be accompanying her do Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): The Secretary not have raised expectations. Royal Mail is struggling of State visited my constituency in July, closely followed with its financial position. We are turning around Royal by the Minister of State, Department for Business, Mail—it was a disastrous financial case when we had it Innovation and Skills, the right hon. Member for Tunbridge from Labour—and, as Minister, I would not want to Wells (Greg Clark), clearly recognising the need to impose extraordinary and disproportionate costs on it. boost the local economy. Since that time, we have had I shall certainly meet the hon. Lady, however. two enterprise zones, regional growth fund successes, a new road scheme and the halving of the Humber bridge tolls. My constituents are asking: what next? Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): The Labour Government introduced the artists resale right, which has made an Vince Cable: I think there is an expression that goes, enormous difference to many artists in this country. The “post hoc ergo propter hoc”. It is not just a coincidence. law requires that it is introduced for the estates of deceased artists from 1 January next year. When I last Mr Speaker: I once used that on “Any Questions”. I asked the Secretary of State about it, he said that he say to the Secretary of State that it does not work. 401 8 DECEMBER 2011 Water White Paper 402

Water White Paper We welcome the proposals to introduce greater competition for business and public sector customers 11.31 am and to establish a cross-border market between England and Scotland for water and sewerage services. We also Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab) (Urgent Question): welcome the fact that water efficiency measures will be To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food part of the green deal, as proposed by my hon. Friends and Rural Affairs if she will make a statement on the the Members for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) and water White Paper. for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger) during the passage of the Energy Act 2011. However, the White The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Paper is silent on how the water sector will reduce its Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): carbon footprint and encourage energy from waste, and Making sure that we have enough water for everyone the proposals on the removal of historical abstraction will be one of the major challenges this country will licences, which cause such damage to our environment, have to deal with in the years ahead. Today’s publication are given an end date of 2025, which is far too late. of “Water for Life” recognises that water is essential for economic growth and that we must protect the environment Last week’s autumn statement announced £40 million for future generations. a year to help 700,000 households in the south-west pay their water bills. Will the Minister tell the House when The White Paper is a blueprint for action. It outlines the £2 billion capital investment in the south-west that plans to modernise the rules that govern how we take South West Water invested be paid off and how long the water from our rivers; it explains how we will improve £40 million subsidy will continue for those customers? the condition of our rivers by encouraging local How will he ensure that those proposals for South West organisations to improve water quality and ensure we Water meet EU state aid rules? We know that bills in the are extracting water from our environment in the least south-west are, on average, £157 higher than those harmful way; it announces plans to reform the water across the rest of the country, reflecting the botched industry and deregulate water markets to drive economic Tory privatisation of 1989, which left 3% of the population growth; it enables business and public sector customers paying for 30% of the country’s coastline and the £2 billion to negotiate better services from suppliers and to cut investment in new sewerage services. Does that money their costs; it removes barriers that have discouraged set a precedent for other areas of the country to receive new entrants from competing in the water market; it help to offset capital investment costs? The cost of the asks water companies to consider where water trading Thames tideway tunnel is now estimated to be over and interconnecting pipelines could help to ensure secure £4 billion, so can Thames Water customers look forward water supplies at a price customers can afford; it enables to receiving similar help with their bills? water companies to introduce new social tariffs for people struggling to pay their bills and seeks to tackle More than 2,250,000 pensioners, single adults and bad debt that ordinary householders have to bear the families spend more than 5% of their disposable income cost of to the tune of £15 a year; and it tackles the on water bills. The Government’s proposals to help historic unfairness of water infrastructure in the south-west. people with rising bills elsewhere in England and Wales are weak and unclear. How does the Minister propose The White Paper is the Government taking leadership to force water companies to ensure that those eligible on an issue of critical importance to our economy and people receive help with their bills when that will come our environment. It is a bold vision for the management straight off the company’s bottom line? What sanctions and harnessing of an increasingly scarce but vital resource will there be for water companies that consistently fail and I welcome this opportunity to discuss it with hon. to help people with their bills? Has he decided whether Members today. to fund Water Sure through public expenditure, as mentioned in the consultation in June, and, if so, what Mary Creagh: I start by thanking the Secretary of will the cost be per annum? Has he rejected the idea of State for her note explaining why the market-sensitive match funding for company social tariffs in the south-west parts of the White Paper were briefed to the stock and modifying sewerage charges for non-household exchange this morning and expressing my disappointment sectors? that she is not giving us her views on this. Today’s water White Paper is more than six months We have just had the driest 12 months since records late, and it is a curate’s egg—good in part. We will work began 100 years ago. That has affected water quality, with the Government to ensure a fair deal for water restricted boating activity and seen wildfires destroy customers, whatever part of the country they live in. valuable habitats. Last month, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs granted Anglian Water a drought permit, a highly unusual move for the Richard Benyon: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for autumn, when reservoirs are normally filling up. Last the welcome she has given to large elements of the Thursday, the Environment Agency’s drought prospect White Paper. She is right that it builds on work that has report revealed that south-east England is at high risk been done over many years. I am grateful to Professor of drought next year with some restrictions possible on Cave, Anna Walker and to David Gray for his report on customer supply.Ensuring a safe, affordable and continuous Ofwat, which informed the White Paper, as have the supply of water while protecting the environment and contributions of many stakeholders, other organisations managing unpredictable rainfall is a major challenge. and Members of the House. The White Paper is of intense interest to the public, who The hon. Lady made a slightly predictable and lame are worried about rising bills as real incomes fall and remark about why I am dealing with the issue today, household budgets are squeezed. It builds on Labour’s rather than the Secretary of State. We have a style of Cave and Walker reviews, which we commissioned, and management in this Government that encourages people takes an evolutionary approach. to take control of the issues. It is a highly motivational 403 Water White Paper8 DECEMBER 2011 Water White Paper 404 style that I recommend to her, because it encourages running through an iconic city, and we need to ensure greater understanding of the issues. The Secretary of that it is clean. We believe that this scheme offers the State and I have spent many hours preparing the White best solution. Paper and have immersed ourselves in the detail. The hon. Lady asks me about the guidance on tariffs. The hon. Lady is wrong to suggest that there is not Water is a monopoly industry, and the monopoly industries enough in the White Paper on reform of the abstraction are highly regulated by three regulators, so Ofwat will system. The abstraction rules go back to the early 1960s continue to set prices and to be an independent regulator. and do not take into account changes to our climate We will give clear guidance on where we think it should and weather patters, and it is important that we have be going, but the relationship will remain the same and new and clear rules that take us into the future. We will its responsibility will be to keep bills affordable. consult in 2013 on our long-term approach to a transitional Several hon. Members rose— system of changing abstraction that will work and be sustainable in every sense. Mr Speaker: Order. What are required now are short There are urgent measures that we need to take questions and short answers, because we must move on. forward, because in constituencies similar to mine, much- That is the way it has to be done. loved and much-valued rivers, which are vital to our Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): Birmingham has a eco-systems and to the general health of our environment greater length of canals than Venice, and the country as and to the way in which we value it, are running dry. a whole has an extensive canal network, so what assessment The White Paper sets out clearly how the Environment has my hon. Friend made of its potential to link those Agency will work to bring forward speedily measures parts of the country with above-average rainfall with that change how we abstract water, so that we return those parts that need more water? water as quickly as possible to river systems, and our catchment approach, which we announced in March, Richard Benyon: I have looked very carefully at that will soon start to benefit water quality and pollution. I issue, and as my hon. Friend will know we are in the urge the hon. Lady to support that measure, which process of a very exciting change in how we manage our involves many local people, is effective and tackles the waterways, in transferring British Waterways to the urgent situation that we face, brought about by the charitable sector. There remains the opportunity to use current low rainfall and the impending drought, unless our canals to move water around, but the sad truth is we have a proper, wet winter. that water is an extremely heavy substance, and it is very The hon. Lady mentioned South West Water. We carbon-intensive to move it very far. The economic believe that the announcement in the Budget, on which assessments that I have seen state that to move water the Chancellor gave more detail in the autumn statement, much more than 30 miles is un-economic, but through a sets out a way of righting a long-term wrong. It is to the range of different measures we start to see that, with credit of this Government that they have tackled it, interconnectors, we can incentivise water companies to because Members from all parts of the House have use a variety of means to move water from neighbouring raised the issue for a great many years, and we are areas to theirs. Then, we can start moving a trickle of dealing with it. I am not going to pretend to her or to water from areas of high rainfall to areas of low rainfall. the House that the announcement will create the equivalence that people in the south-west might feel they deserve, Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): I welcome the fact but it is a considerable contribution and is separate that the Government are implementing the part of from what we are doing to assist those on low incomes Anna Walker’s review that will bring relief at last to throughout the country to pay their bills. consumers in the south-west, although I note, of course, that our bills will still be more than £100 more than in We are consulting on the guidelines that we will any other part of the United Kingdom. Will the Minister produce for companies’ social tariffs, and I recommend say a little more about infrastructure? The thing that to the hon. Lady the details in the White Paper on the puzzles many members of the public is that we live in a excellent work that several water companies are doing wet, temperate climate with lots of rainfall, and yet we to make it easier for people to pay their bills, and on the constantly talk about having droughts. What more can work that the companies are doing with organisations the Government do to increase the capacity of reservoirs such as Citizens Advice and others. and other infrastructure to avoid that happening? The hon. Lady asks how long the payment announced Richard Benyon: I thank the right hon. Gentleman by the Chancellor will continue. In an almost unique for his words. Of course, he is right. We want to encourage announcement, I can tell the House that it will continue water companies to continue to invest. A key element of beyond the end of the spending review and, in fact, the White Paper is to send a very clear message to the until at least the end of the next spending review. Of investor community that we value the nearly £100 billion course, it will be for Ministers then to decide what of investment in our infrastructure over the past 22 years happens after that. and want to see more of it in future. There have been The hon. Lady talks about other high-cost items and two intentions in that direction: first, not to spook their impact on people’s bills, and refers to the Thames investors by giving the wrong indications about how tideway tunnel, which, as she rightly recognises, imposes we want to proceed on competition; and secondly, to a high cost on Thames Water customers. The cost of the say to the investor community, “This is a place of safety project is of great concern to Ministers and to the and security where you can invest for the long term.” Government, and we are looking at it very closely. We We will still require greater infrastructure and elements remain supportive of the scheme, however, and page 55 of construction that will make our economy and our of the White Paper shows the Government’s clear support environment more resilient to the kinds of weather for it. The Thames is one of the most important rivers changes that are happening. 405 Water White Paper8 DECEMBER 2011 Water White Paper 406

Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): Like the right hon. Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): The Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw), I welcome the Minister will be aware that it took David Walliams’s Government’s approach with regard to South West sponsored swim down the Thames to remind our Water customers and to the social tariff proposal. However, constituents how filthy some of our rivers are. Tens of does my hon. Friend acknowledge that the ability across thousands of tonnes of sewage are still pumped into the companies to respond to the advantage that is given to Thames. Protection for the quality of our rivers comes them as regards social tariffs will vary from company from the Environment Agency, but everyone is saying area to company area, and will he keep that under that the Environment Agency is being run down and review? After all, this is a White Paper, not a Bill. that it does not have the capacity to be vigilant and ensure that our environment is safe. Richard Benyon: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. We hope to legislate in the near future on a Richard Benyon: I have the highest respect for the number of these matters, not least that of South West Environment Agency. The people who work there are Water, which does require primary legislation. The guidance true professionals and are absolutely committed. I have that we are consulting on will be made available when had no indication from them that they are unable to the results of the consultation are known in January—in deal with water quality issues, as described by the hon. the new year, to be precise. We will very much take his Gentleman. I agree with him that the main river flowing concerns into account. We want company social tariff through our capital city is in a disgraceful state. Not schemes that really work and get to those who are in only should it be our ambition to see it cleaner, but we water poverty. have to comply with international treaties. It behoves us to take the tough decision to restore its quality. However, Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): I welcome that will not happen with the exclusion of other rivers the publication of the White Paper, although I am that are also suffering quality problems. disappointed that in some respects it is not more ambitious, particularly as some of the measures that we need could Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con): be very simply achieved. To give one specific example, Lincolnshire, where my constituency sits, is one of the are there plans to include a mandatory requirement to driest counties in the country, somewhat counter-intuitively. have rainwater harvesting in all new homes, and if not, Water is therefore of great importance to my constituents why not, given that it is a very simple measure that and in particular to those who farm. Will the Minister could nevertheless have a significant impact? assure the House that there are no proposals in the White Paper that will adversely affect the farming industry? Richard Benyon: There are great incentives to be given in the construction of new homes. In terms of the wider debate on development, sustainable development Richard Benyon: One of the core principles that motivates will put the onus on developers to show that the construction us in DEFRA is food security. We are deeply indebted of these dwellings will have as minimal an impact as to the farming community for the innovation that it has possible on the environment. This will be a real driver shown and for its ability to cope with changing weather towards using water-conserving measures such as greywater patterns, while continuing to produce quality food. schemes, sustainable drainage systems and a whole host During the drought last year, we engaged with abstractors, of others that we will be bringing forward as this many of them from the farming community. We found process goes further. that the Government have many tools at hand to deal with the problems now. There was some very innovative work by the Environment Agency, the National Farmers Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): One reason Union and other organisations on that. The White for over-abstraction from rivers such as the source of Paper addresses the urgent and available methods, but the Thames and the Malmesbury, the Avon and the also considers a new, changeable abstraction scheme for Kennet in my constituency is that the law prevents the long term that encourages farmers to continue to planners from considering water and sewerage availability produce food. when agreeing unwanted out-of-town developments and large-scale developments such as those around Swindon. Will the Minister have discussions with his colleagues at Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): the Department for Communities and Local Government I think that there will be concern at the failure to to consider whether planning law could be changed to separate the retail arm of competition for non-domestic avoid over-abstraction from rivers such as mine? customers. May I press the Minister to set out the timetable for the introduction of a zero-threshold market for all non-domestic customers? Richard Benyon: That is a matter of great concern to me. The River Kennet flows through my constituency, and when I stood in it in Marlborough the other day, it Richard Benyon: That is a clear priority. We hope to was as dry as the carpet on which I am standing. It is a have a water Bill to take those methods forward. We very real problem, and the projections for population looked closely at the recommendations of the Cave growth across this country in the years to come indicate report and those from a number of other quarters that we have to address it now. We are setting out in the about retail separation. We are making substantial changes White Paper a vision that will precisely encompass the on competition, but we were not persuaded of the need concerns so accurately voiced by my hon. Friend. We for wholesale reorganisation and separation. We want need to ensure that there is an adequate water supply so to ensure that the water sector remains open to increased that our rivers and taps can continue to flow, and we are investment. We hope to make changes with a water Bill trying to link up those two very important requirements. in the next Session of Parliament. 407 Water White Paper8 DECEMBER 2011 Water White Paper 408

Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): I Richard Benyon: Deephams is vital to the infrastructure welcome the commitment in the White Paper to tackle that we need. The hon. Gentleman is right to suggest water quality on a water catchment area basis. I notice that it will have an impact on people’s bills. It is the job that the Teme, Wye and Severn catchment areas straddle of the Government, working with Thames Water and the England-Wales border. I ask the Minister to work Ofwat, to ensure that that cost is as low as possible. closely with Ministers in the Welsh Assembly and other There is a large contingency in the Thames tideway agencies to ensure that water quality is improved as project, which every experience of large-scale environmental quickly as possible. projects shows is necessary. I hope that we can work with Thames Water to ensure that these infrastructure Richard Benyon: I have visited that catchment area projects are produced at as reasonable a cost as possible and know that there are serious issues to be tackled. We and with as little impact on charge payers as we can work closely not only with ministerial colleagues in achieve. Wales, but with the Environment Agency and the new George Eustice (Camborne and Redruth) (Con): I, Countryside Council for Wales. I assure my hon. Friend too, welcome the measures outlined in the White Paper that cross-border issues will be dealt with to reflect the to deal with the affordability of water bills in the needs of catchments. We will work with all concerned to south-west. As the Minister said, this issue has been ensure that that is successful. discussed for more than a decade and nothing has been done. It is good to finally see action. In respect of the Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): If the Government concerns about whether this sets a precedent for the are abiding by their promised timetable, 8 December is Thames tideway project, does he agree that a major part of early summer. Is it not true that this White difference is that the population of the Thames Water Paper is not only late, but lame and limited? It appears area is far greater than that of the South West Water to disregard altogether the immense potential of water area, so the overall impact of the infrastructure resources to generate clean, sustainable energy. improvements on bills will be far lower?

Richard Benyon: I am saddened that the hon. Gentleman Richard Benyon: It is no comfort to my constituents is not as welcoming of the White Paper as others have or the constituents of other hon. Members in the Thames been. We originally planned to introduce it in July and I Water area to say that their bills are likely to go up. recognise that it is a few months late. However, I am However, when they do go up, our projection is that sure that he would have preferred for us to take a bit they will be at about the national average. My hon. longer and get it right rather than rush it. We produced Friend’s constituents will continue to pay bills of about a natural environment White Paper in June, which £100 over the national average. We have made a considerable informed the issues that we are taking forward in this investment to try to right the wrong that they have lived White Paper. We have consulted closely with people with for a long time. It is never easy, but I assure him across the water sector and in the wider DEFRA family. that I will continue to work with Ofwat and others. I am I think that it was better to take a few months longer grateful for his contribution and that of other hon. and get it right. Members from the south-west in this difficult process. I hope that it is appreciated that we are getting somewhere. Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con): I welcome Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): With all this talk of the White Paper. Will the Minister confirm that the dryness, I feel as though the Rhondda is living in a reason it was released to the City first was that it different world—perhaps not for the first time—because contains market-sensitive information? There is genuine the issue that affects us most is still flooding, in particular anxiety in Stratford-on-Avon and throughout the country where there is dry ground and water comes straight about over-abstraction. What can he say to my constituents down off the mountains. One thing that has helped to allay their fears? enormously is that Dwr Cymru, Welsh Water, has, with its unique structure, been able to work more co-operatively Richard Benyon: My hon. Friend is right: we released with the Welsh Assembly and others. Will the Minister only the parts of the White Paper that were market ensure that nothing compromises that unique structure? sensitive to the stock exchange, after informing Mr Speaker. I gather that there is precedent for such a move and I am Richard Benyon: I commend that company. I was grateful for the general support for it. My hon. Friend’s with its chairman just the other day discussing this constituents, like mine, are right to be concerned about issue. We have to learn how water companies cope with the impact that over-abstraction is having on their large quantities of water in high rainfall areas, but also environment. That is why we are making a reasoned how we can work with them to achieve greater connectivity change to the abstraction system in the long term and with other water companies. If we see water flowing tackling urgently the problems of over-abstraction in from area to area, it will benefit the hon. Gentleman’s certain areas where rivers are dangerously low or even constituents through the bills that they pay and encourage running dry. water to go to the stressed areas of the south-east. Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): The Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op): The Minister microclimate in Suffolk Coastal is quite similar to that has confirmed his commitment to the Thames tideway of north Africa, and farmers are used to using irrigation tunnel investment of £4 billion. Will he also confirm the in producing crops. There are also big abstractors of other major investment in the Thames Water area at both river and ground water. I welcome large parts Deephams in my constituency? How will the Government of the White Paper, but I am a little worried by continue to protect the consumer from the increased recommendations 3.39 and 3.43, which I am concerned bills that will be occasioned by that major investment? will put farmers in my constituency out of food production. 409 Water White Paper 8 DECEMBER 2011 410

Richard Benyon: I am very happy to discuss the Core Cities details of that with my hon. Friend and with farmers from her constituency, because that outcome is not our 12.1 pm intention. We want farmers’ businesses to be secure for Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab) (Urgent Question): the future. If the Government had not taken responsibility To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and for this issue by taking forward a clear vision of an Local Government if he will make a statement on the abstraction regime that is fit for the future—it has been powers and finance he intends to devolve to local authorities. a problem for a long time that there has not been such a coalescing of ideas—farmers in her constituency would The Minister of State, Department for Communities have been in a much worse condition. and Local Government (Greg Clark): I am grateful for the opportunity to answer. Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): The Minister I have laid in the Library today a copy of a document has just mentioned Welsh Water. Will he remember that that the Government are publishing entitled “Unlocking it also serves customers on the English side of the growth in cities”, and I have laid a written ministerial border, for instance in Chester? In areas where there are statement. The document outlines a new framework for disputes between DEFRA and the Welsh Assembly the relationship between our larger cities and central Government—for example, on the Consumer Council Government. for Water—will he ensure that customers on the English England’s largest cities—many of the issues in question side of the border are not forgotten? are devolved matters—are the economic powerhouses of our country. We are offering them a menu of new Richard Benyon: I will of course ensure that they are powers that we want to explore as part of a series of not forgotten. I am looking forward to going up to the bespoke “city deals”. The ability to do that comes from north-west to see the new interconnector, which will an amendment that was introduced into the Localism provide water from places such as north Wales to an Bill, which was promoted by the core cities group and area that was water-stressed last year. We have to recognise attracted all-party support. It allowed powers to be that drought is not exclusive to the south and east but is devolved to cities in future, and I believe it is important now a feature in other parts of the country, including to act on it. my hon. Friend’s constituency. Our cities have great potential to contribute more to growth, and to enable them to do that we want to free them from Whitehall control in a number of areas, with the aim of stimulating growth. The first wave of deals that we propose will be with the eight largest cities and their surrounding local enterprise partnerships. As with any deal, cities will have to offer something in return for their new powers and funding. They must guarantee that they can provide strong and accountable leadership, improve efficiency and outcomes, and be innovative in their approach. The bespoke approach of recognising the differences between cities and allowing licensed exceptions is a new idea to put cities back in charge of their own economic destiny and enable them to seize the opportunities for growth. It represents a big shift in how Whitehall works, with the presumption being that powers should be handed down wherever cities make a convincing case. It is important to say that today’s document sets out a series of indicative options for the transfers of control that could be considered as part of each deal-making process. The list is not intended to be a statement of policy or represent an automatic entitlement for cities. It is neither prescriptive nor exhaustive, but it might help the House if I give some examples of the content of the document. We want to bring an end to the current system of requiring cities to bid to different Whitehall departments for different pots of cash, whether for roads or housing. Instead, we want to explore whether they can get one consolidated capital pot, to direct as they see fit. We want them to have the ability to set lower business rates for certain types of company. We already have very successful business improvement districts, and sometimes firms in a particular sector across a wider area may benefit from the same degree of flexibility. There will be a £1 billion boost to the regional growth fund to create jobs, and we will encourage cities to bid for that money to help clusters of businesses in their 411 Core Cities8 DECEMBER 2011 Core Cities 412 area, so one bid could help several small companies. We unprecedented cuts, as confirmed in this morning’s know that many small businesses find the system of local government settlement, on top of the cuts already taking on apprentices daunting, so cities will be able to resulting from the scrapping of regional development set up city apprenticeship hubs, which will help local agencies. Those cuts are substantial, front-loaded and employers and local people to make the most of the unfair. opportunities offered by apprenticeships. Will the Minister explain why the 10% most deprived We want to improve the way in which services work local authorities, which include the core cities of Manchester together in cities, to make it easier for people to get and Liverpool, are facing reductions in their spending back into work instead of being passed from one service power nearly four times greater than the 10% least to another—from Jobcentre Plus to the town hall to a deprived authorities? There is only one way to describe careers advisor. That can be done under one roof, and that, and it is as balancing the books on the backs of we want to make that possible. We also want to offer the poor or, when it comes to job losses, on the backs of powers over infrastructure to unlock investments in women, who have lost twice as many jobs in local improving transport, housing and broadband. Currently, government as men since the coalition was formed. transport projects can be delayed because cities have to How many more public sector jobs will be lost in the go through the Whitehall machinery, but they may have core cities in view of the revised Office for Budget the capacity to make some of the decisions themselves. Responsibility forecast published last week? Cities should also be able to have more of a say on their When does the Minister expect the new powers for priorities for housing and regeneration, instead of having the core cities to be confirmed? He has assured the to go through the Homes and Communities Agency. House today that they will be available regardless of the Cities will be able to bid for a share in a £100 million outcome of the mayoral referendums, so when does he capital investment pot to spend on ambitious broadband propose to extend them to other councils? infrastructure projects. We expect bids to include a range of projects, including superfast broadband for On the devolution of local funding, we developed strategic business areas and city-wide high-speed mobile single pot funding, a good idea that is now being taken connectivity. forward. We welcome that, but will the Minister tell the House by how much the Government have slashed local As I said, we want to start with the eight core cities capital spending in the core cities? Is that not why we that proposed the amendment to the Localism Bill, but now face an “infrastructure deficit”? Those are not my I wish to be clear that our vision extends to the whole of words but those of the Prime Minister. urban Britain. I will be open to suggestions from other cities about how they can make use of the powers that How will reducing the affordable housing budget by the Bill, now the Localism Act 2011, gives them. nearly £4 billion unleash the power of local councils, including the core cities, when it means that they will The powers that we are proposing will help to allow find it much more difficult to provide the homes that our cities to be the economic, social and cultural magnets their people need? that they have the potential to be, and places where people aspire to live. Our cities have too often been Councils will welcome a role on apprenticeships, straining at Whitehall’s leash, and they now have an although many already play a role, but why are local opportunity to seize the powers that are available to authorities, including the core cities, excluded from them. I hope that the conversation and negotiations playing a part in the Work programme? Surely they that we will have in the months ahead will be fruitful, should have a role in helping people to find jobs, which and I commend this statement to the House. is an urgent task up and down the country. On the changes to local government finance announced Mr Speaker: Yes, I notice that the Minister refers to by the Deputy Prime Minister today, which will affect his “statement” to the House, and his observations did all councils, will the Minister give the House an assurance somewhat exceed the time limit allocated to Ministers that no local authority will lose out financially? Will for dealing with urgent questions—so much so that one there be effective redistribution from the most well off wonders whether he might have considered making an to the least well off? How much of the increase in oral statement in the first instance. business rate revenue do the Government plan to keep for themselves? How exactly is that localisation? Hilary Benn: I am grateful to the Minister for his On the business rate discounts, to which the Minister reply, but it should not have taken an urgent question to referred, who will decide where and to which industry bring him to the Dispatch Box this morning. Once they can be offered, and will he assure us that that will again, a major policy announcement affecting local not just result in better-off areas being the ones that can government, this time made in the Deputy Prime Minister’s attract new businesses? speech in my constituency this morning, is all over the national and regional media, who were clearly pre-briefed The Opposition support strong and innovative local yesterday, whereas the House should have been told government, which should have the powers it needs to first today. do that job, but no amount of warm words will hide The efforts of councils and communities up and two very uncomfortable facts: the Government are cutting down the country make the biggest contribution to our unfairly and their failed economic policy is undermining cities, and it is the Government’s job to help them do so. the growth of our core cities and all local communities, At least the Deputy Prime Minister acknowledged today when what they really need is a change of course. that areas once synonymous with urban decay were “dramatically revived” thanks to Labour’s investment. Greg Clark: I accept your words, Mr Speaker, that, However, when we examine the “unprecedented transfer such is the replete quantity of announcements that we of power” that he has talked of, in fact we find are making, I might have made a statement on them. 413 Core Cities8 DECEMBER 2011 Core Cities 414

[Greg Clark] Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): The Minister’s reply to this urgent question shows that this Government However, I am pleased to be able to respond to the right are serious about civic renaissance. Will my right hon. hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn). Friend make efforts to speak to his colleagues in the The intention of the proposals is to begin a series of Treasury about supporting tax increment financing and negotiations with cities—we have not made a definitive residential estate investment trusts, and about the announcement of powers that will be vested in one city development of more detailed special-purpose vehicles rather than another. I thought it reasonable to publish a to access private sector capital to drive regeneration, document to encourage cities across the country and see not just in large cities, but in smaller ones such as what others have suggested. Peterborough? The right hon. Gentleman mentioned RDAs, but he Greg Clark: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. One will know that local enterprise partnerships in each of power that we are keen to see devolved to cities is a the cities are making major contributions to our reform. greater ability to invest in infrastructure, which can It is significant that when people were invited to make a unlock growth and lead to financial prosperity. We have proposal on how they should organise themselves consulted on suggestions for tax increment financing economically, local businesses and local authorities proposed and will propose our response shortly, but it is clear that core cities as a preferable alternative. I am not aware of cities want to be in the vanguard of using such powers. any consensus on the retention of RDAs. On the local government finance settlement, to which Mr Nick Raynsford (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab): the right hon. Gentleman referred, he will know that The Minister talked about the devolution of business this is the second year of a settlement announced last rates, but he did not respond to the question that my year. I can confirm that the figures are exactly the same. right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds Central (Hilary The average reduction in spending power is 3.3%, which Benn) asked him on Government plans to retain part of is less than last year’s reduction, and there is the protection the revenue from them. If the Minister is serious about of a maximum reduction of 8.8%. localism, will he tell the House whether the Government will consider options for devolving all business rate In terms of fairness, we have again advantaged the revenue to local government and not allowing a clawback deprivation and needs component of the formula to by the Treasury? ensure that it has a greater weight compared with the system that we inherited. Greg Clark: The right hon. Gentleman will know that On jobs, the right hon. Gentleman will know that to the Government have consulted on precisely that. It is rebalance the economy it is important that we have important that there is a strong connection between an private sector job creation. That is the agenda that the authority’s business rate receipts—all authorities; not local enterprise partnerships are putting forward, and just cities—and its policy behaviour in respect of businesses. each of the core cities is clear that that is what is needed. The direction in which we are headed is very clear, but They have a great capacity to create private sector jobs. the precise technical details will be made clear in days to Our future jobs are likely to come from knowledge-intensive come. industries, of which cities are ideally placed to be the hosts. In cities, people are in close proximity with one Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): I welcome today’s another and can share knowledge and insights. Cities announcement, particularly the repatriation of business will be the cradles of growth in future, and it is right rates. Real localism means people having their own that private sector job creation should be the key to money to spend how they decide locally. How many that. He will also know that the Office for Budget savings will be made by reversing Labour’s Whitehall Responsibility independent report on the autumn statement centralisation, under which so much taxpayers’ money projected an increase in private sector jobs of 1.7 million was lost in administration costs before it ever got to in the years ahead. front-line users? We will negotiate case by case on what each city would like to be part of the single pot. It is important Greg Clark: There is recognition that whatever the that we recognise that the needs of Liverpool are perhaps intentions behind the regional agencies, whether RDAs different from those of Bristol or of Leeds. or regional arrangements more generally, they had become instruments—or, as it were, embassies—of Whitehall in The right hon. Gentleman asked who should approve the country. Our preferred approach is to devolve powers the discounts available in business rates. That is clearly a to cities so that they can revive their reputation of being matter for the local authorities representing the whole able to determine their own future and stand proudly in of the city area. When there are industry specific the world as beacons of investment. arrangements, we would expect a ballot of those industries, as with business improvement districts, which can have Mr Graham Allen (Nottingham North) (Lab): As a higher levy. Chair of the Select Committee on Political and The proposals we are making today are consonant Constitutional Reform, I strongly welcome the principle with the discussions that we have had with each of the and philosophy behind today’s announcement and the core cities during months past. I hope that the right co-operation with the core cities in moving the proposals hon. Gentleman and his colleagues, having been forward. All parties should ensure that they are on the instrumental in providing this power, will join the leaders right side of the ambition of local government for of all parties in the cities to ensure that we can give greater independence. Is the Minister aware that local them the tools they need to unlock growth in their government in this country is one of the few in any of areas. the western democracies to remain a creature of statute? 415 Core Cities8 DECEMBER 2011 Core Cities 416

Will he consider pushing localism much further towards and behaviour of the council and the rewards for that. genuine independence, as is enjoyed in other western The proposals that my right hon. Friend the Secretary democracies? The Local Government Association is of State for Communities and Local Government will currently looking at that and might well campaign on it make on the reform of business rates, combined with in the new year. the access to single capital pots, will provide—for the first time—the ability as of right for cities to invest in Greg Clark: I commend the work of the hon. Gentleman their infrastructure, attract businesses and reap the rewards and his Committee. He is right that we want to improve of doing so, and so enter that virtuous circle. the standing of local government and its ability to be recognised as having—in effect—a constitutional Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab): The Minister significance that cannot simply be brushed aside. As he has announced some very interesting measures, but I will know, our reforms in the Localism Act 2011 move am not entirely sure that they will compensate for the considerably in that direction to establish a general huge cuts our cities face. It is very disappointing that power of competence for local government, so that it no Leicester is still not considered a core city. We are the longer exists to do those things that it is told to do by pre-eminent city in the east midlands, we have a very Parliament and central Government. Instead, the default successful mayor in Sir Peter Soulsby—a former Member should be the other way around: councils should be able of Parliament—and I am sure that the city could benefit to do things unless they are explicitly prevented from from some of the proposals announced today. Will the doing them by Parliament. The Act is a huge step in Minister add Leicester to the list of core cities? that direction, but I look forward to the report from the hon. Gentleman’s Committee—it will be taken very Greg Clark: The hon. Member for Nottingham North seriously in the Government. (Mr Allen) looked somewhat askance at that, but I think that rivalry between cities is healthy. Cities should Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): This is a have an identity, and verve and competitiveness should great opportunity for northern cities such as Leeds to be encouraged. As I said to the right hon. Member for seize back control from London. Does the Minister Leeds Central (Hilary Benn), I will not rule out the agree that Leeds is doing the right thing by attracting inclusion of any cities that can make a good case for inward investment, sovereign wealth funds and other taking on some of these powers. I would certainly sources of capital, and not relying on money from expect Leicester to be pre-eminent among those cities. Whitehall? Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): I grew up Greg Clark: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. One in the city of Liverpool and I am sure that fellow of the things that was suppressed under the old regional Scousers will welcome these proposals, but I now represent arrangements was the identity of cities internationally, a seat in Suffolk, which does not have a city but is bigger and one of the proposals that we make in the document than most of the cities that my hon. Friend has mentioned. is that UK Trade & Investment should work even more What is stopping the transfer of these powers to shire closely with cities to promote the identity of cities such counties, and why are they being restricted to cities at as Liverpool, which is world renowned and should be present? given particular prominence in UKTI’s work around the world. Greg Clark: My hon. Friend knows that our agenda for decentralisation extends across the country to authorities Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): I was pleased by of all types—indeed, the Localism Act enacts those the Minister’s clear statement that these new powers powers—but it is right to recognise that our cities have would not be restricted to the biggest regional cities, but particular challenges and opportunities. Just as cities applied—as he said—to all urban areas. But how on around the world have prospered from having a policy earth is that compatible with one of the first decisions focus, it is right that we should consider the challenges that this Government made, which was to take away of urban Britain and, by transferring powers to cities Exeter’s unitary status? and encouraging them to realise their potential, we should help our cities to do what cities in other countries Greg Clark: I know that there has been an extensive do, which is to match or exceed the national average of debate, and great opposition in the area, about that prosperity. Too often, our cities are below the national issue, but it was settled. Rather than change administrative average in income, and we want them to improve their boundaries, which could bog down this process and position. waste time, our choice has been to respect existing administrative boundaries and, within that, transfer Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab): The Manchester powers. region will welcome the direction of travel that the Minister spells out, but does he recognise that the Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): Will the Minister fundamental partnership between the previous Government outline how his core cities plans will impact on business and my city—and other northern cities—which saw rates and investments to boost the economy of Newcastle such dramatic changes, was premised on the fact the and the north-east? Government ensured that resources were adequate? Will he guarantee that we will see a proper resource base for Greg Clark: The connection between business rates our core cities? and investment should of course be a virtuous circle. It should be possible to invest in major infrastructure Greg Clark: The reforms give more control and more projects knowing that they will attract business, so direct ability for authorities to have the resources that establishing a clear connection between the activities they need to invest. One of the features of the system 417 Core Cities8 DECEMBER 2011 Core Cities 418

[Greg Clark] On the point about the ability to do this through LEPs, I think that the identity and strength of cities that we inherited from several Governments is that too were submerged under the regional structure that we often our great cities, which have an international standing inherited. Having swept away the regional approach, we and reputation, have had to look up to Whitehall to are giving life to the potential of these cities, as is being plead for assistance when they have the capacity and increasingly recognised. resilience to invest and reap the rewards themselves. That is the change that we want to secure and these Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): I welcome the proposals are a step towards that. Minister’s announcement and the continuing devolution of powers to our local authorities. Like the hon. Member Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD): The Minister for Blackpool South (Mr Marsden), I represent a coastal has visited Bristol and he will know that the city of constituency, and my constituents will be concerned Bristol is not the same as Bristol city council. A pot of that investment will be sucked into our cities to their money will be welcome to help to solve the city’s transport disadvantage. Will the Minister assure me that other problems, but power over the entire urban area would measures will be introduced that will help constituencies be more welcome. Will the Minister endorse the case for such as mine? an integrated transport authority for the county that used to be Avon? Greg Clark: My hon. Friend knows that coastal cities have been a particular focal point for the Government. Greg Clark: This is one of the proposals that I expect As a considerable presence in his area, he will want to to come from Bristol. The Government recognise, in encourage his authority to make use of some of the this document, that cities include their surrounding powers that are generally available. It is right to recognise area, and indeed that is how local enterprise partnerships the importance of cities and what they can do, but one defined themselves. One of the criteria for the deals is to of the contributions that they can make is to revive the ensure that all the connections in the area in and around prosperity of areas even outside the city boundaries, the city are reflected in what is proposed, so I expect and I am sure that that will be the case in and around that to be part of the discussion that we will have with the Humber. the authorities in my hon. Friend’s area. Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): May I press the Mr Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab): What Minister on the point that local authorities should the Minister’s paper shows, in what it says about LEPs surely be included in the Work programme? They could and skills, is that Ministers are having to reinvent the play a great part in helping people to get jobs. wheel on what RDAs did. Belatedly, they are giving powers to LEPs, wasting 12 months in the process. Greg Clark: The document makes an explicit proposal Does he accept that, as Members on both sides of the that local authorities should be able to participate in the House have said, these powers and opportunities should Work programme. It is relevant for them to be able to also be available to second-level towns, coastal towns, bring local insights to bear, the better to get people from rural areas and suburban areas on the edge of cities? welfare into work. Will he also look at the need to combine a skills strategy with localism in those areas—something that his colleagues Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): I welcome these moves in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills from Fabian centralisation to local democracy, but will and across the Government have so far failed to do? my hon. Friend consider extending these devolved powers to core new towns such as Harlow, especially given that Greg Clark: That is explicitly referred to in the document. we are now an enterprise zone? We want to give the opportunity for cities to engage in skills strategies and help to equip the next generation of Greg Clark: I am delighted by Members’ requests to workers to enable businesses to prosper. I have been extend these powers beyond the cities. It is music to my clear in what I have said: while we are starting with the ears. I would be delighted to have such compelling core cities, this should by no means be seen as an propositions and requests from cities and new towns exclusive process and I want to extend these principles and indeed from other parts of Britain. We are starting beyond that. with the core cities, but we want to go further. 419 8 DECEMBER 2011 Business of the House 420

Business of the House speeches are causing the logjam in the Lords. Why is the Government’s legislative programme so out of balance 12.30 pm and why can they not manage it better? Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab): Will the Leader of Talking about incompetence, on Tuesday the the House give us the business for next week? Government lost their first vote in the House of Commons amid chaotic scenes as panic-stricken Government Whips The Leader of the House of Commons (Sir George Young): first dragged their MPs out of the Aye Lobby and then The business for the week commencing 12 December shoved them back in again. By the time the doors were will be: locked, Hansard shows fewer than a quarter of Government MONDAY 12 DECEMBER—General debate on immigration. MPs were actually in the Lobby with just three Cabinet In addition, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister Ministers for company. I have to say that neither the plans to make a statement on the EU Council. Leader of the House nor his Deputy were among them. TUESDAY 13 DECEMBER—Motion to approve the chairman Thankfully for the Leader of the House, neither was the of the Statistics Board, followed by proceedings on the Chief Whip. Charities Bill [Lords], followed by motion to approve a I understand that when this defeat was announced, statutory instrument relating to financial restrictions the cheers from the Carlton Club were even louder than (Iran), followed by Opposition day [un-allotted day] those from Opposition Benches. What an ominous sign [half-day]. There will be a debate relating to Europe. for the Prime Minister on his way to Brussels. Whether This debate will arise on a Democratic Unionist party the Leader of the House likes it or not, this place has motion. expressed a clear view by a majority of 134 that we WEDNESDAY 14 DECEMBER—Motions on standing orders require more time to debate this Government’s failing relating to ways and means and supply, followed by economic policy. Will the right hon. Gentleman now motions relating to scrutiny of draft orders under the honour the clearly expressed wishes of this House, by Public Bodies Bill [Lords], followed by Opposition day scheduling further Government time for debate on the [un-allotted day] [half-day]. There will be a debate on an economy in the very near future? Opposition motion. Subject to be announced. This week, the Deputy Prime Minister vowed to go THURSDAY 15 DECEMBER—Motion relating to the into the next election with a plan to means-test free bus recommendations of the Members’ Expenses Committee passes and TV licences for millions of pensioners. Is report on the operation of the Parliamentary Standards that what his newly appointed “brand advisers” meant Act 2009, followed by, motion relating to financial when they told him to act more like Oxfam? Some 9 education. The subjects for these debates were nominated million pensioners now want us to have a debate on by the Backbench Business Committee. whether this is Government policy? Will the Leader of the House oblige? The provisional business for the week commencing 19 December will include: On Tuesday, a former Conservative Member of this House was caught on camera boasting of his access and MONDAY 19 DECEMBER—General debate on influence at the heart of Downing street. This follows apprenticeships. the still unanswered questions on the Werritty affair. In TUESDAY 20 DECEMBER—Pre-recess adjournment debate. Opposition, the Prime Minister said that lobbying was The format will be specified by the Backbench Business the Committee. “next big scandal waiting to happen.” Colleagues will also wish to be reminded that the The Minister responsible gave a firm promise to the House will meet at 11.30 am on 20 December. House that there would be a consultation document on I should also like to inform the House that the the regulation of the lobbying industry by the end of business in Westminster Hall for 15 December 2011 will November. Given that it is now December and next be: week is the last full parliamentary week before the THURSDAY 15 DECEMBER—Debate on Remploy. recess, will the Leader of the House confirm that the promised consultation paper will be published next Ms Eagle: We have all been captivated this week by week? the images of the arrival of two giant pandas at Edinburgh Tory divisions on Europe have exploded into the zoo. Is the Leader of the House alarmed to realise that open. The Prime Minister got a Euro-mauling from his there are now more giant pandas in Scotland than there own Back Benchers yesterday and the Eurosceptics are are Conservative MPs? Before the Deputy Leader of out on manoeuvres. Meanwhile, Cabinet Members are the House gets too comfortable, let me say that, given openly at war: the Work and Pensions Secretary is his party’s poll ratings in Scotland, it looks like its MPs reportedly issuing threats over the phone; the Northern are going to be joining the endangered species list north Ireland Secretary has taken to the airwaves demanding of the border as well. a referendum and the leader in waiting at City Hall is In 20 years in this place, I have never known business madly stirring the pot. statements to contain so little legislative substance, especially We have a Tory grass-roots rebellion, a Cabinet divided so early in a Parliament. There has been little even and a Prime Minister isolated. Will the Leader of the resembling Government legislation in this place for House inform us what is different from the last Tory weeks now. Will the Leader of the House explain why Government that he served in? the Commons is twiddling its thumbs while the Lords teeters under the weight of badly drafted, highly Sir George Young: My party plans to overtake the controversial and ill-thought-out legislation? Was this population of pandas before the next election— part of the plan? Before he blames the Opposition, the [Interruption.] At the next election. In view of the snow or the royal wedding, analysis shows that thousands fertility of pandas, that may not be a very high hurdle, of Government amendments and endless Liberal Democrat but we do plan to do better than them. 421 Business of the House8 DECEMBER 2011 Business of the House 422

[Sir George Young] Sir George Young: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. Having listened to the exchange just now, I know that As for the House twiddling its thumbs, I think that the announcement and the enfranchisement of local the hon. Lady demeans the debates that I have announced government were welcomed on both sides of the House. in the forthcoming week. There is a debate on Europe. I cannot promise an early debate on the cities and I do What can be more topical than that? There is the not want to get drawn into the question of which is the Opposition-day debate. Are they going to choose something principal city in the east midlands. There will be an that is of no consequence? I am amazed that she has opportunity to discuss this matter, however, on Tuesday repeated the accusation that we heard last week. The week, during the pre-recess Adjournment debate, or she fact is we have managed the business in the House of might like to apply for a debate in Westminster Hall. Commons much better than the outgoing Government. Furthermore, there will be the normal debate on the We have managed to scrutinise the Government’s legislative revenue support grant early in the new year. programme with adequate time. That programme is now in another place and we will deal with the Lords Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab): I amendments in due course. apologise in advance for not being able to stay for the I am amazed that the hon. Lady raised the issue of whole of business questions today. the debate and vote on Tuesday. We provided a debate I would like to offer the Leader of the House the help in Government time after the autumn statement. That of the Backbench Business Committee between now is something that the previous Labour Government did and such time as the Government’s legislation comes not always do. We had the pre-Budget report, and we back from the House of Lords: we would be only too did not always get a debate in Government time. Having delighted to take responsibility for scheduling all debates provided a debate in Government time, the Labour on the Floor of the House between now and then. party then brought it to a premature conclusion by I hope that he will take us up on that generous offer. I moving that it should stop before we reached 10 o’clock. also hope that he does not mind if I take this opportunity It then complained that we did not have enough time to to make another public service announcement: hon. debate the motion. A number of Labour MPs who took Members have until 6 pm on Monday to put in for the part in the debate then solemnly went through the pre-recess Adjournment debate ballot. Division Lobbies to assert that they had done no such thing; that they had not considered the economy. At a Sir George Young: We are grateful for the public time when we are trying to reconnect the House of service announcement. On the hon. Lady’s generous Commons with the public, I wonder whether the sort of offer to replace me as Leader of the House, I gently antics that the Labour party got up to on Tuesday really point out to her that I have announced six days’ business advanced our cause. in the next two weeks, three of which are Opposition On benefits for pensioners, if the hon. Lady looks at days or Backbench Business days. I do not think that the coalition agreement, she will see clear commitments she will find a more generous offer in the history of on benefits to pensioners on bus passes and other issues Parliament. and that remains the policy of the coalition Government. I am amazed that the hon. Lady chose to raise the Mr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con): Will the Leader subject of lobbying. For 13 years, the Labour Government of the House consider having a debate on payday loans? did nothing about lobbying. They ignored the It is an area of the financial sector that has not had that recommendations of the Public Administration Select much coverage, but yesterday’s report showed that one Committee, which reported in 2009. By contrast, we are in six people cannot afford to pay off the principal that actually doing something about lobbying. We will produce they borrow. It seems that this area of the financial our consultation paper within the next few weeks, proposing sector is acting in a fashion that is little more than loan a statutory register of lobbyists, which is something that sharking, particularly given that it preys on the financially they consistently failed to do. On the question of boasting, vulnerable in our constituencies. I have to say that in the previous Parliament, there were ex-Labour Ministers who were boasting, while they Sir George Young: I am grateful to my hon. Friend were still Members of Parliament, of the influence that for reminding the House of the report published yesterday. they had on Government. The Government are concerned about the impact of these high interest rates on the day-to-day life of those Finally, on Europe, I gently remind the hon. Lady on low incomes. He might know that this issue was that when we had the vote on the referendum, her party raised during a debate on 1 December in Westminster was split as were all three parties. On the Government Hall. The Government have just commissioned research Benches, we are delighted that the person representing from Bristol university to find out what the consequences this country in Europe today and tomorrow is the would be of introducing a cap on the interest rates. I Prime Minister and not the Leader of the Opposition. hope that that will be available and published in the summer and that it will inform the debate. In the Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (Con): I do not wish to fall meantime, I urge people to think twice before taking on out with Labour Members who represent Leicester high-interest loans and to contact the free money advice constituencies but it is a long-standing fact that the service, possibly through their citizens advice bureau, or queen of the east midlands is Nottingham. to visit their local credit union, which might be able to There was good news today for the city of Nottingham, help on better terms. and that is good news for my constituency, which forms part of Greater Nottingham. Will the Leader of the Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): House be so good as to find time for us to discuss cities Has the right hon. Gentleman seen early-day motion and today’s good news for all the core cities? 2506, which stands in my name and those of other hon. 423 Business of the House8 DECEMBER 2011 Business of the House 424

Members, and deals with the antisocial property speculation Sir George Young: I understand that there will be an in my constituency of Mr R. Street of Woodhouses, opportunity to ask that question of Ministers in the Manchester, and Associated British Foods, which for Department for Culture, Media and Sport on 15 December. eight years have kept derelict a site among which large I also understand that the hon. Lady represents her numbers of my constituents live. party on the Front Bench so she is well placed to ask [That this House expresses its disgust with Mr R. Street that question. I shall convey the question to my right of Woodhouses, Manchester, landowner and Associated hon. Friend the Secretary of State and see whether we British Foods PLC, head lessee, whose avarice and lack of can get the information—I am pretty sure that it has concern mean that land at the junction of Wellington been asked for before—on the relationship between the Street and Cross Lane, Gorton, Manchester, remains a areas that buy the tickets and those that get the lottery derelict eyesore, as it has been now for eight years, when investment. I shall do what I can to secure that information. community development is urgently required on this site; notes with anger and concern that large numbers of local Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): May we have a debate residents in this heavily populated area have had to put up on penalties for swearing at police officers? The excellent with this unacceptable situation for so long; calls on these new Metropolitan Police Commissioner, Bernard Hogan- greedy property-speculators to give up the land without Howe, has said that people should be properly punished delay so that it can be developed for community use; and for swearing at police officers, whereas the rather ridiculous further calls on the Secretary of State for Communities Mr Justice Bean has recently quashed the conviction and Local Government and Manchester City Council to against somebody who swore at a police officer, saying take all possible action to get these anti-social people to that it was the kind of thing that they should expect. behave decently.] Given the widespread concern about the lack of respect in society, surely people should not be able to swear at It is a total disgrace that because of the greed and police officers without punishment. A debate in the cupidity of these property speculators my constituents House could decide the will of the House. should have to put up with this. Will he refer the matter to the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government so that these people can be told that they Sir George Young: I understand my hon. Friend’s cannot go on like this anymore? concern. Having been on the police parliamentary scheme, which I am sure that many other hon. Members have been on, I understand the frustration that policemen Sir George Young: I am grateful to the right hon. experience when they are subject to abuse. My recollection Gentleman. I have now seen early-day motion 2506, is that it is not an offence, as such, to swear at a and I understand why he and his constituents feel policeman, but that if, after someone has been warned, strongly about the site. I note that at the end of the they carry on, they are liable to be arrested. However, I motion he calls on Manchester city council, as well as am not a lawyer and I shall get an authoritative response my right hon. Friend, to take all possible action, and from the Lord Chancellor, which will be conveyed to presumably compulsory purchase order powers are available my hon. Friend. if desired. However, I shall do as he has suggested and bring the matter to the attention of my right hon. Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab): A couple of days Friend. ago, the renewables obligation banding review impact assessment was published by the Department of Energy Simon Hart (Carmarthen Westand South Pembrokeshire) and Climate Change. Unfortunately, in spite of meetings (Con): May we have a debate on the Freedom of Information with officials and at ministerial level, the impact assessment Act? In my area, public bodies have been asked a range has failed to address some of the issues relating to the of questions, including on witches, werewolves, wizards, wood and forestry industry in the United Kingdom, not ghosts, vampires, zombies and demons. Even the star least the impact on 150,000 jobs across some of the signs of local car thieves and the chief constable’s lottery most rural parts of the UK. Given that the Leader of choices have been asked for. It is a waste of time and the House has so much time to be generous with, will he money, and may we review it? allow a debate in Government time on this important industry? Sir George Young: I understand my hon. Friend’s concern. The Government announced in January that Sir George Young: I understand the right hon. Lady’s they would review the FOI legislation. We are about to concern, and I understand that the issue was raised— submit our evidence to the Justice Committee as part of although perhaps not in precisely the form in which she the post-legislative scrutiny, and that scrutiny will touch expressed it—at DECC questions recently. I will share on the issues that he has just mentioned—the costs her concern with my right hon. Friend the Energy imposed on those who have to respond to these requests. Secretary and see whether we can get a response on the I hope very much that the Committee, once it has impact assessment. received our review of the FOI Act, can take the matter forward. Of course, we will be interested in any Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): Many recommendations that it might make on changes to the Government Members are passionate about the NHS, legislation. so may we please have a general debate on it, particularly given the recent problems at the Care Quality Commission Gloria De Piero (Ashfield) (Lab): May we have a and the variability in certain orthopaedic services? debate in Government time on the national lottery provider, Camelot, with a view to securing a constituency Sir George Young: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. breakdown of where tickets are purchased, not just The Government would welcome a debate on the NHS, where lottery money is spent? during which we could explain the reforms that we are 425 Business of the House8 DECEMBER 2011 Business of the House 426

[Sir George Young] Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): The Leader of the House will have noticed that the number of questions submitted introducing to improve it and the extra resources that by MPs to the Secretary of State for Environment, we are investing. I cannot promise a debate, but at some Food and Rural Affairs and the Secretary of State for point the Health and Social Care Bill, which is in Transport has risen to about the equivalent of those another place, will return to this place, and then there submitted to the main Departments, which give an might be an opportunity for the sort of exchange to hour’s worth of responses from Ministers, rather than which he refers. three quarters of an hour. I wonder whether the Leader of the House will consider raising the time to an hour, Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): to ensure that the farmers and everyone with transport Given that the Government are in disarray over their problems in my constituency, including young people, legislative programme, do we not have an opportunity will have a chance to hear some answers. to have some pre-legislative scrutiny so that we do not end up in the position we found ourselves in with the Sir George Young: I understand the point that my Health and Social Care Bill, when it had to be paused? hon. Friend makes. I wonder whether she has been able to identify which Department might have less time, in Sir George Young: I do not know if the hon. Lady order to accommodate the extra time for the Departments remembers the previous Parliament, but in contrast to that she mentions. it the legislative programme in this Parliament is a model of order. She made a serious point about more Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): Excel, a new car legislation being introduced in draft. We will do that. I park operator in my constituency, has gridlocked my think that we plan to introduce nine draft Bills this office with complaints. Shoppers, local traders and taxi Session, which is double the number at the beginning of drivers think that they have been unfairly hit by hefty the previous Session. It is the objective of the coalition penalty charges. We should consider a licensing system Government to have more pre-legislative scrutiny and and an independent appeals service to improve car more Bills introduced in draft. We think that that leads parking management. May we have a debate on driving to a better scrutiny process in the House of Commons. up standards for car parking operators? Sir George Young: I understand the hon. Gentleman’s Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): May we have a debate concern. I think that legislation banning the clamping on the rights of children to proper and equal access to of cars on private property has gone through the House their grandparents? In a few moments, I and a number and will come into effect next year. I hope that that is a of other MPs will join the Grandparents Association—a step in the direction that he wants, but I will raise his charity based in Harlow—to take a petition to No. 10 broader concerns with my right hon. Friend the Secretary Downing street calling for children to be given that of State for Transport. right in law? Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con): A total of Sir George Young: I applaud the work of the 17 babies die every day in Great Britain, with 11 stillborn Grandparents Association to achieve positive outcomes and the others dying within four weeks of birth. SANDS, for grandchildren, and I hope that my hon. Friend will the campaigning charity in this area, is currently holding get a positive response to the petition that he is about to an exhibition at the Oxo gallery to highlight the care present. In the context of what the coalition Government available for parents who suffer this tragedy. I had a are doing to strengthen the family, we of course want to Westminster Hall debate on stillbirth about six months see what more we can do to strengthen the rights of ago, and I have been trying hard to get a debate, in grandparents, particularly where there is family breakdown. Westminster Hall or otherwise, on the certification of a stillbirth, which is a Home Office matter. May we have Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- some Government time to discuss the issue? op): I wonder whether the Leader of the House is aware of the growing concerns about the potential implications Sir George Young: The Government are anxious to of changes to tax credits for couples who work only improve the perinatal mortality rates to which my hon. 16 hours in the week. Last week’s Westminster Hall Friend has referred. I hope that the investment in midwives debate on the issue was well attended, and it was clear will help to bring that figure down. I will pursue his that many more Members wished to speak than could specific question about statistics with the Home Office, do so in the time available. Will the Leader of the House if that is the right Department, and see what can be therefore consider allocating some time during Government done on that front. As he will have heard, there will also business to consider the issue and allow the Economic be an opportunity to debate the matter further in the Secretary to the Treasury to give fuller responses than pre-recess Christmas Adjournment debate. she was able to give in that debate? Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): May we have an Sir George Young: I understand the hon. Lady’s urgent statement about why the Minister of State, concern. She will know that the Welfare Reform Bill is Department of Health, the right hon. Member for in another place. It may be appropriate to raise such Chelmsford (Mr Burns) is privately telling the Care issues when the Bill returns to this House. However, I Quality Commission to press ahead with the takeover would point out that by next April the child tax credit of the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority, will have risen by £390, so against a difficult background while publicly saying that he is still consulting and we have tried to help the sorts of families to whom she considering options? Surely that is unreasonable, in a has referred. judicial review sense, and bad government. 427 Business of the House8 DECEMBER 2011 Business of the House 428

Sir George Young: It might be unreasonable if it were Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): A total of 179 gallant true. I would like to make some inquiries, but I assume British soldiers died in Iraq as a result of a decision of that what my right hon. Friend says in public is what is this House that was based on a deception. Some 383 died the case. in Helmand as a result of a decision that was based on the hope that not a shot would be fired. When can we Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): Many local authorities debate early-day motion 2515, in order to discuss the in Wales have accepted demands from trade unions not dreadful threat of a potential war in Iran actually to dock the pay of striking workers until January or happening? February. May we have a statement to ascertain the [That this House is alarmed that the UK is stumbling Government’s position on using taxpayers’ funds to towards a war in Iran that would have dreadful, unforeseeable provide unions with a “strike now, pay later” option? consequences; recalls that in the past the momentum of preparations for war has frequently led to major wars; Sir George Young: I understand my hon. Friend’s and urges the Government to seek to reduce tension, concern. So far as the Government are concerned, we pursue conflict resolution and cease war preparations.] have had no approach from the civil service trade unions The current war of words might become a war of to do what he describes, and we are not aware of a weapons. general approach from the public sector trade unions. However, I very much agree with what he has said, and Sir George Young: I understand the hon. Gentleman’s if we were approached, we would say that it is not concern about those who lost their lives in conflict. We appropriate to pay people for work that they have not had a debate in Government time relatively recently on done at this or any other time of year. a range of countries that included Iran—I am not sure whether he was able to take part in that debate—so I Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab): cannot promise another early debate on the middle east May we have a debate on the double whammy that the and related areas. As I said earlier in response to another music industry is imposing on small and medium-sized question, he may want to put in for the pre-Christmas enterprises? Currently, both Phonographic Performance recess Adjournment debate or apply for a debate in Ltd and the Performing Right Society are demanding Westminster Hall. significant amounts of money from small and medium-sized enterprises simply for playing the radio on premises Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): May that are accessible to the public. Will the Leader of the we have a debate in Government time about the state House raise the matter with the appropriate Minister, pension? In addition to the record cash increase announced so that we can have some clarity about what powers this week, which I know pensioners have welcomed, the such organisations have to demand such amounts from Government are proposing two other alternatives in small and medium-sized enterprises? their White Paper for reform of the state pension age, as the state pension is the foundation of the retirement Sir George Young: The Government are sympathetic. income of 100% of our constituents. We want to deregulate, and the regime that the hon. Gentleman has described is the one that we inherited. Sir George Young: I would welcome such a debate. In There will be Department for Culture, Media and Sport the debate on Tuesday, a number of my hon. Friends questions in a week’s time, but if this is a Department drew the House’s attention to the generous pension for Business, Innovation and Skills issue—which it may increase next spring and reminded the House of the well be—I will raise it with my right hon. Friend the triple guarantee that we have introduced. My hon. Business Secretary. The hon. Gentleman might like to Friend also trails the next development in pension be here in a week, and I will ensure that whichever policy, which I think will be warmly welcomed by Minister answers his question is well primed. pensioners in this country. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions is taking that Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Moorlands) (Con): Leek policy forward. further education college in my constituency has been providing excellent skills-based training to young people Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab): I could for over 100 years. It is now in negotiations to become never fall out with the hon. Member for Broxtowe part of the university of Derby, so that, for the first time (Anna Soubry), even if she will not accept that Leicester ever, both further and higher education will be available is the superior city. May I ask the Leader of the House to young people in Staffordshire Moorlands. Will the about the scheduling of economic debates? He knows, Leader of the House find time for a debate on how we of course, that the Government lost a vote. When we can help all young people with educational aspiration, have a Budget, we have four or five days of debate including those in Leek? immediately afterwards, as well as on the day of the statement. May we have a similar arrangement for Sir George Young: I welcome that initiative, which is autumn statements, so that we have debate on the day to have on one campus the two institutions to which my and perhaps for the following one or two days? hon. Friend has referred. We are trying to reform vocational education to ensure that there are high-quality alternatives Sir George Young: I do not know whether the hon. to academic subjects, such as the ones that she has Gentleman has had time to read the recommendations mentioned, and to remove all the perverse incentives to of the Wright committee, but we have done exactly what push pupils into lower-level qualifications that might it recommended—namely, to provide in Government not improve their employment prospects. I am delighted time a debate after the autumn statement. I drew to the to hear of the initiative to which she has referred. attention of the shadow Leader of the House the fact 429 Business of the House8 DECEMBER 2011 Business of the House 430

[Sir George Young] Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): The Government are investing heavily in improving broadband that that was not a practice that had been adopted by a capacity, which can bring about some great innovations previous Government when we had a debate on the such as home working and flexible working that can pre-Budget report only in response to a Standing Order enhance the work-life balance. May we have a debate on request from my right hon. Friend the Member for such issues to encourage as many private sector employers Tatton (Mr Osborne), nowthe Chancellor of the Exchequer. as possible, following on from Government initiatives, to enhance the work-life balance? Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): Yesterday an important report on atrial fibrillation was published. Sir George Young: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. AF is a condition that, through lack of awareness, leads The roll-out of broadband is a priority for this Government, to a huge number of deaths and disability as a result of and I know that BT is doing a lot of work in this area. I the much increased risk of strokes. Will the Leader of will share with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of the House ensure that we have an opportunity to raise State the particular point that my hon. Friend has made awareness of atrial fibrillation by having a debate on the and ask him to write to him. Floor of the House?

Sir George Young: The Government are anxious to Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): Local and improve the diagnosis, detection and treatment of atrial regional newspapers are gutted that they cannot get fibrillation. Some work is going on at the moment to accreditation for the Olympics. May we have a debate identify those at risk so that they can be helped at an about how we open up the vast media centre at the earlier stage. We work closely with the Atrial Fibrillation Olympic site to newspapers from across our country? Association and the Stroke Association on this issue. I will draw to the attention of the Secretary of State for Sir George Young: I understand my hon. Friend’s Health my hon. Friend’s interest in this subject. concern. There will be an opportunity to raise that issue at Culture, Media and Sport questions in a week’s time, Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con): Despite and I will forewarn my right hon. Friend the Secretary improvements, many 11-year-olds in Tamworth go into of State that my hon. Friend is on the warpath on this secondary school with a reading age of eight, which issue. severely limits their learning opportunities. May we have a debate on innovations in education, particularly on vertical integration between primary and secondary Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): Just as religious schools, which is being examined in Tamworth and can fundamentalism can be damaging to social cohesion, so help to identify the problems and encourage the aspirations can anti-religious fundamentalism as exhibited by the of many young people? National Secular Society in its attempt to stop prayers before council meetings. Will the Leader of the House Sir George Young: I am interested in what my hon. find time for a Government statement to ensure that Friend says, and I assume his local education authority councils remain free to have prayers where they so wish? would be the appropriate body to approach about merging those two types of schools. I hope that my hon. Friend Sir George Young: I strongly believe in local democracy, will take comfort from what we are doing with the and I think that the decision to which my hon. Friend academies programme, driving up standards and putting refers—on how to conduct council meetings and whether parents and teachers in power, and what we are doing there should be a prayer before them—is very much one with free schools, which I hope will improve the education that should be taken by local councils. I hope that they of those children to whom he referred, who are leaving will follow the example of this House, which has a short school without the qualifications they need. moment of prayer before we re-engage in normal hostilities. 431 8 DECEMBER 2011 Public Sector Pensions 432

Hywel Williams: It has clearly escaped the right hon. Opposition Day Gentleman’s attention that the SNP are in government in Scotland, while in Wales—alas—we are not. [UN-ALLOTTED HALF DAY] David Mundell: I am afraid that I do not find that a Public Sector Pensions tenable explanation. All SNP Members of the Scottish Parliament are not in the Government, although they Mr Speaker: I inform the House that I have not may act like it. Those people crossed the picket lines selected the amendment in the name of the Leader of and spoke in a debate on this very subject. the Opposition. Hywel Williams: Honestly, I think we need to move 1.4 pm on to the subject of the debate. I am sure that the right Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): I beg to move, hon. Gentleman will have time later to make those and That this House recognises and appreciates the valuable work other fatuous points. done by public sector workers; believes that they should receive pensions which are affordable, sustainable and fair; further believes Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): I would like that the changes announced since June 2010 by the Government to take the hon. Gentleman back to what he said a few are primarily for the purposes of deficit reduction rather than a moments ago and remind him that when Plaid Cymru move to secure the long-term sustainability of public sector pensions; notes that these changes are unfair on public sector was part of the coalition in the Welsh Assembly workers who will have to work longer, pay more and receive less in Government, its members refused to cross the picket their pension when they retire; further notes the findings of the lines at that time, too. National Audit Office that the 2007-08 pensions re-negotiation changes will generate estimated savings of 14 per cent. by 2059-60 and the conclusions of the House of Commons Committee of Hywel Williams: Well, honestly, I am sure that you Public Accounts’ Thirty-eighth Report of this Session on the would not want me to be diverted down this particular Impact of the 2007-08 changes to public sector pensions (HC 833), route, Madam Deputy Speaker. that the cost of public service pensions has reduced substantially because of these changes; agrees with criticism in both reports of the failure to develop a long-term strategy for the role of pensions Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Much as in recruitment and retention to the public sector; condemns the this topic might interest some Members, I think the Government’s threat to cut devolved administrations’ budgets if hon. Gentleman should return to the subject of this they do not implement the Government’s immediate levy on afternoon’s debate. pensions contributions; and calls on the Government to reverse its unfair changes to public sector pensions. Hywel Williams: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The motion stands in the names of my right hon. and hon. Friends from the Scottish National party and To summarise our motion, we appreciate the valuable Plaid Cymru, and of Members from the Labour party work done by public sector workers and believe that and, I understand, from the Social Democratic and they should receive pensions that are affordable, sustainable Labour party. and fair. I think that we can have agreement across the House on that. We believe that the Government’s changes Last week, a day of action saw more than 2 million are primarily for the purposes of deficit reduction—I people across the UK join in protests against changes do not think we are going to have agreement on that—rather that will make those affected—mainly women—work than to secure the long-term sustainability of public longer, pay more and receive less when they retire. This sector pensions. These changes are, to our minds, unfair year alone, bankers walked away with £7 billion in on public sector workers. bonuses. As one constituent said to me last week: “This is just a way of getting extra cash from public workers. We also note that the findings of the National Audit And it is just not fair.” Office for the 2007-08 period show that pensions We are proud to hold this debate on behalf of all re-negotiated at that time will generate estimated savings those people across the UK who are directly or indirectly of 14% by 2059-60. The conclusions of the 38th report affected by the Government’s changes, and we note that of the Public Accounts Committee reveal that the cost despite having 36 Opposition day debates since the of public service pensions has reduced substantially changes were announced in June 2010, the official because of those changes. We agree with the criticism in Opposition have not seen fit to devote even one of those both reports of the failure to develop a long-term opportunities to debate the public sector pensions proposals. strategy for the role of pensions in recruitment and Whatever the evasions, the nods and the winks, and the retention in the public sector, and we condemn the ducking and diving of others, we are glad of the opportunity Government’s threat to cut the devolved Administrations’ to show clearly where we stand. budgets if they do not implement the Government’s immediate levy. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell): This is characterised as a joint debate Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): I am between Plaid Cymru and the Scottish National party, following my hon. Friend’s argument closely and I agree yet last week we saw SNP Members of the Scottish entirely with what he says. Does he agree that there is a Parliament cross the picket lines to ensure that the link between this drive to the bottom on public sector Scottish Parliament functioned, while Plaid Cymru pay and the Chancellor’s view that we should be looking Members of the Welsh Assembly refused to cross picket at regional pay? This flexibility is all about a drive to the lines and the Welsh Assembly did not function. Where bottom, and it is unacceptable out there; people will not is the coherent position in that? have it. 433 Public Sector Pensions8 DECEMBER 2011 Public Sector Pensions 434

[Mr Elfyn Llwyd] be made again by other nationalist party members. Anyone reading the popular press would imagine that Hywel Williams: My right hon. Friend makes an public sector workers were driving around in this year’s excellent point, to which I shall return later. The Prime model of car and enjoying two or three foreign holidays Minister’s numerous assurances that he is not in favour a year, but that is not, of course, the case. of driving down public sector pensions, and that it is We say “Let us have negotiations”, but is the 3.2% not a race to the bottom as far as he is concerned, are imposition itself negotiable? What the Government have strange in view of the actions of his Government. announced today will merely shift the burden from one Finally, our motion calls explicitly on the Government group of workers to another. They are trying to squeeze “to reverse its unfair changes to public sector pensions.” out some sort of deal, but we utterly reject that way of Let me make clear from the outset that no one to going about things. whom I have spoken wanted to go on strike. Everyone wants a reasonable settlement. My nationalist party David Mundell: I think it important for the hon. colleagues and I hope that the talks between the unions Gentleman to clarify whom he means by “we”. The and the Government will continue, and will reach a Scottish National party is in government in Scotland, successful conclusion in the terms that I have outlined. and a number of choices are available to it. For instance, We understand that the unions have accepted the continued there are funds that it could allocate to reduce pension need for negotiation and further change. Perhaps the contributions, but it has chosen not to do so. Minister who winds up the debate will tell us when the two sides met most recently in the last month, who was Hywel Williams: Again, I do not want to go down involved—there have been questions about who was that particular avenue—[Interruption.] I have some speaking for whom—and when they intend to meet things to say that the Minister might like to listen to. again. My hon. Friends will be responding to his point later, but let me say now that the possibilities to which he Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): As the hon. alludes constitute a broad spectrum of theoretical options Gentleman develops his argument, will he be comparing for consideration, and that the Scottish Government the positions of employees in the public sector with have expressed no preference. I am sure that others will those in the private sector, who for many years have say more about that later. been having to increase their contributions in order to receive decent pensions? Stewart Hosie: The Minister said that a number of choices were available to the Scottish Government. As Hywel Williams: Government Members have deployed he will know, the choices are rather limited by the UK such arguments time and again, which is strange given Government’s threat to withdraw £8 million a month— that in other contexts, such as that of education, they £100 million a year—from the Scottish budget if we do always deny that they are lowering standards. It is not not stick to their timetable. I am sure he agrees that that about levelling down, they say, but about levelling up—yet rather limits the choice of manoeuvre for a Government when it suits them, it is the other way around. The hon. who do not want to go down that path. Gentleman clearly was not listening when I made that point earlier. Hywel Williams: I am sure that the £100 million cut that the UK Government are dangling before them is Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP): The hon. Member proving very persuasive for the Scottish Government, for Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith) has advanced a given the difficult position that they are in. I am sure spurious argument. There are some very good private that more will be said later about that as well. sector schemes and some very good public sector schemes. Some private sector schemes have gone bust, and some Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): Because of the public sector schemes require an in-year top-up. This is council tax freeze in England, the Barnett consequentials not about “private good, public bad”, or the other way provided an extra £66 million for the Scottish Government, around. It is about having good schemes, full stop. It is and they received hundreds of millions extra as a result about fairness, and about not levelling down in either of the autumn statement. Does the hon. Gentleman not the private or the public sector. agree that the Scottish Government can choose whether or not to use that money to prevent an increase in Hywel Williams: The hon. Gentleman has made a pension contributions? good point. If Government Members are concerned about the private sector, they should be concerned Hywel Williams: The hon. Gentleman is a keen student about the large number of people who have no pensions of Scottish affairs, and possibly of Welsh affairs as well. at all. That is what concerns me, and concerns my He will know that the block grant has been falling, and colleagues. that the choices available are limited.

Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): Certain members of Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab): Does the Government are suggesting, as one of their “public the hon. Gentleman not accept that the Labour-run against private” arguments, that public sector schemes Scottish Executive also had to make choices? When are gold-plated. In fact, the average public sector pension they undertook to introduce free travel for the elderly, is about £5,000 a year, and local government pensions they had to do so on the basis of the block grant, and can be as low as £3,000 a year, or £80 a week. the SNP would have to take a similar hit if they did what the motion suggests. Hywel Williams: The hon. Gentleman has anticipated a point that I was going to make, which will doubtless Stewart Hosie: The budget was going up at that time. 435 Public Sector Pensions8 DECEMBER 2011 Public Sector Pensions 436

Hywel Williams: As my Scottish colleague says, the a hotbed of left-wing insurrection—went on strike last budget was going up then. week for the first time in 140 years. Anna Brychan, director of the NAHT in Wales, summarised the arguments Mr Weir: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that what advanced by many public service workers who felt that was said by the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute they had no choice but to go on strike. I shall paraphrase (Mr Reid) was completely wrong? The Chief Secretary what she said, because it was very lengthy. She said that to the Treasury has specifically said that if the Scottish the NAHT was not persuaded by the unsustainable and Government do not implement the UK Government’s unaffordable argument. The pension changes in 2007-08, proposals, their budget will be cut. Barnett consequentials according to the figures from the National Audit Office, emanating from elsewhere are irrelevant, and besides, showed savings of 14%, but no re-evaluation has been the Liberals in Scotland have already called for the made since the previous apparently permanent settlement. money to be spent on numerous things. May I draw the attention of the House to my early-day motion 2198, which makes that point? Hywel Williams: The hon. Gentleman has put it much better than I could have done. It is not surprising Guto Bebb: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? that the Liberals are, as usual, trying to spend other people’s money. Hywel Williams: I must press on, as I have rather a lot to say. Time is pressing on, and it is a short debate. Of Mr Reid: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? course, the hon. Gentleman can make his own speech, unless he has to leave the Chamber, but I give way. Hywel Williams: No, I must try to make some progress. No doubt the hon. Gentleman will have an opportunity Guto Bebb: Was not the individual whom the hon. to speak later. Gentleman has just mentioned—Anna Brychan—once Whatever the Government say, the 3.2% is seen by a member of Plaid Cymru who worked for the party in workers and by the general population as an additional Cardiff? and carefully targeted tax, aimed largely at those who have the least means to pay. As for the negotiations, Hywel Williams: So did the hon. Gentleman, before they must be based on proper evidence rather than on he jumped. I know him very well. He is a very nice man the cases that the Prime Minister quoted selectively and is trying hard to be a nasty curmudgeon, but he is during last week’s Question Time, which were so effectively failing entirely. debunked in Radio 4’s “’More or Less” programme and in Channel 4’s “FactCheck”. Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): Does that not prove the general point that there is more Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repenteth than (PC): I congratulate my hon. Friend on the excellent over the 99 who remain unrepentant? speech that he is making. Is he aware of a study by the Fire Brigades Union, which found that 27% of its Hywel Williams: It depends on whether they are members were likely, or very likely, to leave their pension going up or down. schemes if employee contributions were raised? What Returning to the comments made by the NAHT, I effect does he think that would have on the sustainability refer to the written question tabled by my hon. Friend of schemes if it were translated across the public sector? the Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) on 21 November. In his response, the Minister Hywel Williams: There is clearly a danger that some of State, Department for Education, the hon. Member schemes will become unviable, which would mean that for Bognor Regis and Littlehampton (Mr Gibb), said: in the longer term those who no longer had pension “The latest valuation of the teachers’ pension scheme was schemes would become even more dependent on the published in November 2006. This was the actuarial review of the state. I am sure that Government Members would not scheme as at 31 March 2004.”—[Official Report, 21 November 2011; want that to happen. Vol. 536, c. 87W.] In other words, there has been no formal published Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): I am sure I heard the valuation since the 2007 changes were introduced, so hon. Gentleman say that the 3% increase in pension how can the Government claim that the scheme is contributions would target those least able to pay. I unaffordable? believe that the average public sector wage in Wales is The NAHT also says that contribution increases are about £26,400, compared with £21,700 in the private all about plugging the deficit, not about making pensions sector. Furthermore, do not the Government’s proposals affordable. Teachers are already doing their bit: they protect those earning less than £15,000 a year? have a pay freeze, and below-inflation pay increases to look forward to. In respect of the higher pension age, Hywel Williams: That argument fails to take several they recognise the implications of the population living factors into account, such as the 710,000 people who longer, as we all do. That must be debated, but we need will lose their jobs and the 1% pay freeze that looms to be sensible. Teaching, the NAHT says, is physically before us at a time when inflation is eating into the real and emotionally demanding, and expecting people to value of wages. do it at 68 is “an ask too far”. That is also the view of Our constituents have gone on strike with the greatest other unions that I have consulted. Shane Price, my reluctance. They are not the wild-eyed extremists so local Fire Brigades Union representative, asked me: beloved of those on the Government Benches. Members “Would you want, or expect, to be carried out, coughing and of the National Association of Head Teachers—scarcely spluttering from a blazing building by a 68 year old fireman?” 437 Public Sector Pensions8 DECEMBER 2011 Public Sector Pensions 438

[Hywel Williams] good financial health, and generates a surplus for the Treasury. Indeed, over the seven years from 2009-10 to Clearly not. In any event, says the NAHT, the changes 2014-15, the NHS pension scheme is expected to provide will distort the age profile of the profession. There is a a surplus of £10.7 billion for the Treasury. need to ensure a throughput of young people, and that The BMA is engaged with the Governments in will be jeopardised. Younger teachers will be affected Westminster and in the devolved nations on the proposed most by the proposed pension scheme, and they may reforms to pensions, but it has not ruled out balloting opt out altogether, as we have discussed. members on industrial action over the matter. It is The NAHT says that this is an attack on education. It thinking of moving towards action, and its decision will wants to attract the brightest and the best—that is what be informed by a ballot at the beginning of the year. pupils deserve—and while the salaries are not great That is just a sample of the views and arguments that given the demands of the job, the professional rewards we have heard—there are plenty more. are enormous. We cannot afford for people to discount One of my constituents, a small business person—such those professional rewards because their conditions of people are often cited by the Government as those who service are dramatically reduced. These are serious, would suffer as a result of the strike—said to me on the responsible points. They are made, it is true, by people day of the strike: who are looking after their own interest, but uppermost “They”— in their mind is the future of our children, the future of the Government here in London— education and of the teaching profession in general. “think that people like me don’t support the strike. They’re wrong. A lot of my business comes from county council workers. Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab): How will I keep going if they don’t have the money to spend?” I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way—he has That shows the interaction and co-dependence of the been extremely generous in accepting interventions. Having public and private sectors in areas such as mine. read the motion, I agree with almost all of it, particularly the part in which he identifies who is responsible for the Alun Cairns: If that argument is to be sustained, is it attack on public sector pension schemes. May I therefore not logical that the way to resolve the economic problem assume that he will continue his criticism of the enemy is simply to make the public sector as big as possible, within—the coalition Government—and not be tempted and the private sector can then profit? to criticise anyone else? Hywel Williams: I am surprised to hear the hon. Hywel Williams: The bulk of my speech, as one Gentleman arguing for that. I thought he took the would expect, is about the Government’s proposals, but contrary view, but perhaps my sense of irony is the hon. Gentleman will have to wait and see. underdeveloped. Lleu Williams from University and College Union The Office for Budget Responsibility estimated in Wales told me: March 2011 that 400,000 people in the public sector “We are pleased that MPs will debate public sector pensions a would lose their jobs. In its response to the autumn week after tens of thousands of people in Wales took industrial statement, that rose by nearly 80% to a disastrous action to show how angry they are…The action last week, alongside 710,000. One further, crucial reason as to why we in the debate on public sector pensions, is testament to the strength Plaid Cymru and the Scottish National party have of feeling on these issues” called this debate is that public sector jobs are in Wales. He continued: disproportionately important to countries and regions “We hope today’s debate sends a clear message from the people outside London and the south-east. Paying an extra 3% of Wales to Westminster that we will not go quietly into the night out of their wages is bad for individuals wherever they over these proposed changes.” live, and I have particular sympathy for those in inner-city I have heard from the other side that union members areas with high costs such as public service workers in did not support the strike—they have deserted the central London. Looking across the UK, the 3% imposition cause, as it were. UCU general secretary, Sally Hunt, and the job losses will have a particularly strong impact confirms that it saw record recruitment levels both on Scotland, Wales and the north of England, especially before and after the strike. That gives the lie to that one. as the private sector is generally weaker in those areas. Finally, the National Union of Teachers welcomes today’s That will be even more the case if the Government debate and says that rather than creating an unnecessary follow Labour’s lead in 2008 and introduce regional and damaging divide between the public and private rates of pay, as my hon. Friends have said. The figures sectors, Ministers would do well to focus their attention on the size of the public sector are clear, sad and on securing fair pensions for all if future Governments revealing. Briefly, in Scotland the public sector accounts are to avoid pensioner poverty on an unaffordable scale, for 28.6% of jobs; in the east the figure is 23.7%; in the which is the point that I made earlier regarding future north-east it is 29.4%; in the south- east it is 22.8%; in dependence on state benefits. Wales, unfortunately the figure is highest at 31.2%; and I shall refer briefly to that bunch of hard, crazed in London it is 22%. There is a clear north-south divide. revolutionaries, the British Medical Association, which The people we represent will be hit particularly hard, as strongly opposes the plans set out by the Government will our local economies because of the grotesquely to reform the NHS pension scheme, including increased distorted, south-east-weighted economic development contributions from doctors; raising the standard pensionable of the UK and the obsession with the City of London. age for staff; and devaluing many pension settlements. This morning I received an e-mail from Mr Mark It queries whether the NHS pension scheme is in need Rowe, a PCS member from the Devon area. I do not of reform, given that it underwent a major overhaul know Mr Rowe; I have never met him, and I do not only three years ago. It says that the scheme is in very know what his politics are, but he said this in his e-mail: 439 Public Sector Pensions8 DECEMBER 2011 Public Sector Pensions 440

“Dear Mr Williams, Thank you for supporting hard working “believes that they should receive pensions which are affordable, public servants in their struggle over pensions. It is good to know sustainable and fair”. that someone is. We had a huge rally through Torquay on the Indeed, those sentiments form the foundations of our 30th, hardly a ‘damp squib’”— reform of public service pensions. Our objective is to as it was described by the Government. He added that put in place new schemes that are affordable, sustainable there had been “much public support” and asked why and fair both to taxpayers and public service workers. Labour are not “fighting our corner”. Public sector Let us be clear: public service pension reform is needed. pensions have not been the subject of a single full The costs have increased by a third in the last 10 years, Opposition day debate in the House for the past 18 months, to £32 billion, and the Office for Budget Responsibility despite the fact that Labour has had 36 Opposition day forecasts that, without reform, spending on pensions debates since the public sector pension changes were will rise by almost £7 billion over the next five years. first introduced in 2010. Understandably, this is a contentious issue, but fairness remains the cornerstone of our approach. We believe Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): Is that public service workers deserve a good pension in the situation not worse than that? Not only has Labour retirement, as a fair reward for a lifetime spent serving never bothered debating this subject in the House of the public. We recognise the vital contributions made Commons despite having had so many opportunities to by teachers, nurses, council employees and civil servants do so, but the Leader of the Opposition described these to the well-being of our society now and in the future. strikes as wrong. That is why in June 2010 my right hon. Friend the Chancellor commissioned Lord Hutton, a Work and Hywel Williams rose— Pensions Secretary in the previous Government, to take an unbiased and clear-headed look at public service Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. I pensions and make proposals for reform. His landmark will be grateful if the hon. Gentleman returns to the report has set the parameters of the debate, and it has topic of his motion, which is the Government’s plans on been rightly lauded for its depth and vision. pensions. Lord Hutton set out an overwhelming case for reform. He said that Hywel Williams: I will obey your injunction, Madam “the status quo is not tenable”, Deputy Speaker. that As I have said, I have had a great deal of correspondence “future costs are inherently uncertain”, with the unions, and I have given their point of view, which concurs with ours. We are happy to fight the and that at present the public workers’ corner in this dispute. We are happy to press “cannot be sure that schemes will remain sustainable in the for a proper pensions settlement, which is why we will future.” press our motion to a Division. In his interim report, he found that there was a clear justification, based on the past cost increases borne by the taxpayer, to increase contributions in the short term 1.31 pm to ensure a fairer distribution of costs between taxpayers The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland and members. We accepted that recommendation, and (David Mundell): The weather in Scotland today is very increases in member contributions will take place, starting stormy, and our thoughts are with those who are having next year. However, next year’s increase merely reflects to endure the consequences of that. I do not know the increase already planned by the previous Government. whether this debate will be equally stormy. We remain committed to securing in full the overall savings of £2.3 billion in 2013-14 and £2.8 billion in Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): I hope the 2014-15 that we announced at the 2010 spending review. Minister will not think just about the people enduring In his final report, Lord Hutton produced a blueprint travel disruptions, but will realise that the majority of for a new landscape of public service pensions. It is those who will be working hard to resolve any problems based on retaining defined-benefit schemes but moving that arise will be public sector workers. to a fairer career-average basis, and increasing the retirement age in line with the state pension age to protect the David Mundell: I do realise that—and that may be the taxpayer against future increases in life expectancy. only point on which I agree with the hon. Lady. I thank the hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab): Presumably the for opening the debate. He spoke for about 20 minutes, Minister is talking about UK public sector pension and in that time he at least said exactly the same about schemes, whereas the motion seems to be specifically Scottish National party policy on this issue as was about devolved pension schemes. Does he agree that if revealed in a two-and-a-half-hour debate in the Scottish there is a solution, it will be that the separatists in Parliament last week, which was precisely nothing. I Edinburgh just say, “We won’t apply any changes”? will return to that subject. Does he also agree that their excuse of continually saying, “The big bad boy in London did it” and then As the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila running away is wearing thin? Gilmore) has already mentioned, no Member would disagree with the following sentiments in the motion: David Mundell: On that point, I can agree with the “That this House recognises and appreciates the valuable work hon. Gentleman. The Scottish Government have done by public sector workers” considerable flexibility to make their own choices, but and they have chosen not to do so. 441 Public Sector Pensions8 DECEMBER 2011 Public Sector Pensions 442

Mr Weir: Will the Minister confirm that the Chief David Mundell: I recognise the full ambit of the First Secretary specifically said that if the Scottish Government Minister’s many responsibilities and I do not believe do not accept these changes, he will fine them £8 million that such a submission would have been made without per month, which amounts to £100 million a year and consultation with the Scottish Government. half a billion pounds over the spending period? How are the Scottish Government supposed, effectively, to Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): I think we are pay for this twice, and thereby pay £1 billion? getting to the crux of some of the issues. I would never agree with what the coalition Government are doing to David Mundell: What I can make clear to the House public sector pensions in Scotland, but the Scottish is that as a result of last week’s autumn statement the National party did put in a report to the Hutton review Scottish Government will receive approximately £69 million that was far more draconian than what the Government extra in resource departmental expenditure limit funds, are proposing. The SNP may be trying to say to the that as a result of the Budget they received an extra House that this was done by an agency, but why did £112 million, and that between the Budget and the the Scottish Government not contribute a proposal to autumn statement they received an extra £90 million, the review? which they had not budgeted for. David Mundell: The hon. Gentleman makes a valid Mr Weir: However, will the Minister please explain point. It reinforces what all of us who are aware of what difference that makes, as we are still going to lose day-to-day Scottish politics know, which is that the half a billion pounds over this spending period? There SNP Government in Scotland speak with one word but is still going to be a massive cut if the Scottish Government their deeds are quite different. do not follow what this Government are imposing upon I return to what I was discussing before the interventions. them. The Government accepted Lord Hutton’s recommendations in full and can reassure the House that the reformed David Mundell: The difference it makes is that the public— SNP will have the option to back up its words with deeds, but instead it fails to do so. Its argument is Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- entirely based on blaming the Westminster Government. op): The Minister has made much of Hutton’s report It has funds available to make these choices, yet it and fairness, but does he not agree it seems odd that the prefers to deceive public service workers in Scotland by Government jumped the gun by announcing the 3% suggesting that everything is entirely at the behest of the increase before Hutton’s final report? How does that Westminster Government. demonstrate fairness?

Mr Weir: Will the Minister therefore go to the Chief David Mundell: I know that the hon. Lady was not in Secretary and say, “Take away this threat and allow the the House at the time, but the 3% figure is broadly Scottish Government to do what they want to do for equivalent to the sum that her Government had identified Scottish public sector workers”? Is the Minister happy in the pre-Budget report in 2009. that there will be this cut of half a billion pounds over the spending period? Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab) rose— David Mundell: I know the hon. Gentleman does not want Scotland to remain in the United Kingdom—that David Mundell: I will give way in a moment, but I is his policy—but he and his Government have the want to make some progress. ability to make this choice, as the hon. Member for The Government continue to engage actively with the Dundee West (Jim McGovern) set out, yet they have trade unions to agree what the new pension schemes chosen not to do so. will look like. Discussions began in February and the Government remain fully committed to meaningful Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab): We engagement. Scheme-level discussions are continuing should look at what the SNP has actually done in this with the trade unions, with meetings yesterday, today respect. It has responsibility for the Scottish Public and tomorrow, which deals with a question asked by the Pensions Agency, whose submissions to the Hutton hon. Member for Arfon. Significant progress has been review were far worse than what the coalition Government achieved and the trade unions have welcomed many of propose. the commitments that we made at the start of this process, including the one that public sector schemes David Mundell: I will not presume that the hon. Lady will remain defined-benefit schemes, with a guaranteed was complimenting the Government, but she is correct amount provided in retirement. That, of course, was in that all four of the suggestions the Scottish Government one of the options not put forward by the Scottish made to the Hutton inquiry would certainly leave Scottish Public Pensions Agency. public sector workers no better off than under the UK Government proposals, and a number of those suggestions Several hon. Members rose— would leave them distinctly worse off. David Mundell: I am going to take an intervention Pete Wishart: As an Under-Secretary, the Minister from the hon. Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock surely recognises the difference between a Government (Sandra Osborne) once I have completed this section of agency and a Government spokesperson. my speech. 443 Public Sector Pensions8 DECEMBER 2011 Public Sector Pensions 444

The unions also welcomed the commitment that all course, if agreement cannot be reached, the Government accrued rights will be protected. Everything that public may be required to revisit our proposals and consider servants have earned until the point of change they will whether those enhancements remain appropriate. keep, and it will be paid out in the terms expected, at the retirement age expected. Final salary means just that: Hywel Williams: Some time ago, the Minister referred that someone’s accrued rights will be based on their to a meeting held yesterday, but will he clarify who was final salary, not at the point of change but whenever involved? Was a Minister involved in the discussions? their career ends or they choose to leave the scheme. No public service worker need worry about the entitlements they have already built up. David Mundell: My right hon. Friend the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General and my right Sandra Osborne: The Minister talks about public hon. Friend the Chief Secretary to the Treasury have sector reform, so why is the 3% rise going straight to the made it clear that the meetings are ongoing on a regular Treasury? That has nothing to do with the sustainability basis in respect of the specific schemes. I am sure that I of public sector pensions. will be able to give the hon. Gentleman the information he requires. David Mundell: As the hon. Lady knows, the Treasury Our objective remains to agree reforms of the main underwrites the scheme. The Treasury requires to be schemes—those for teachers, health and the NHS, the paid out whatever is required to be paid out in relation civil service and firefighters—by the end of the year, to the scheme. The scheme does not operate on a basis and my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary will of contributions and pay-outs, because the Treasury is update the House in due course. The Government’s underwriting the scheme so that everybody is paid in preferred scheme would produce better pensions for full as is their entitlement. those on low and middle incomes who have devoted a lifetime to public service. At the same time, public Mr Donohoe rose— service pensions will remain considerably better than those available in the private sector, as my hon. Friends have suggested. A primary school teacher earning £32,000 Hywel Williams rose— per year could receive a pension of £20,000 under our proposals. To earn the equivalent pension in the private David Mundell: May I just make a little progress and sector, an employee would have to pay more than one then give way again? I think I have been generous with third of their salary. my time. Our reforms are not retrospective, nor do they seek to Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): Several of my correct the past failure of the Labour party; they are constituents who work in the private sector have told driven by the need for fair, affordable and sustainable me that they totally agree that public sector workers pensions in the future. We have reached agreement with should get sustainable, affordable and fair pensions, but the unions on the importance of transparency, equality they are concerned that for them to have a similar impacts, participation rates and opt-outs, scheme pension they would have to increase their contributions governance and high-level principles to inform consultations by a factor of three or four. They do not think that that on scheme-level pensions. is fair in the current circumstances. Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab) rose— David Mundell: My hon. Friend makes a good point and I empathise with it as the MP for a constituency David Mundell: I will give way in a moment. that has some of the lowest private sector wages in the We have set out our proposals. When we make our UK. reforms, the taxpayer needs to be properly protected Only 10% of private sector workers have access to the from the future risks arising from increases in life expectancy type of scheme that I was describing, which is at a by the link between the scheme normal pension age and guaranteed level and is inflation proofed, while only the state pension age. On 2 November, after months of one third of private sector employees currently get any negotiations with the trade unions, the Government set contributions from their employers. out a revised offer that was more generous by 8%. The offer is generous. Most staff on low and middle incomes will retire on a pension that is as good as what Jonathan Edwards: I come back to the issue of the they expect today, and for many it will be better. Lord divide-and-rule strategy of playing the public sector off Hutton has said that it is difficult “to imagine” a more against the private sector. Is the Minister aware that the generous offer. The offer includes generous transitional average pension of a retiring teacher is £9,000 per arrangements for those closest to retirement; those closest annum, and that the figures for NHS workers, for civil to retirement should not have to face any change at all. servants and for members of the armed forces are This approach mirrors the steps taken in relation to £7,000 per annum, £6,000 per annum and £7,500 per increases in the state pension age, and it is fair that the annum respectively? Do those figures seem unfair to same applies here. Anyone 10 years or less from retirement him? age on 1 April 2012 can be assured that there will be no detriment to their retirement income. However, this David Mundell: It is a question not of playing the enhanced offer is conditional upon reaching agreement. public sector off against the private sector but of setting It is an offer that can inform the scheme-by-scheme out a fair scheme for public sector workers, and that is talks which will continue until the end of the year. Of what this Government are seeking to do. 445 Public Sector Pensions8 DECEMBER 2011 Public Sector Pensions 446

[David Mundell] David Mundell: The hon. Lady knows that in all aspects of employment, the full-time equivalent applies. The report mentions two reports, one by the National That is what will apply to pensions. Audit Office and the other by the Public Accounts Committee, which do not provide us with sustainable Mr Reid: Will my hon. Friend confirm that that and lasting models for the future. Pensions, as they decision in relation to a nurse in Scotland is entirely one stand, are not affordable. As Lord Hutton says, for the Scottish Government to take? “the status quo is not tenable.” The Office for Budget Responsibility’s latest forecast David Mundell: Indeed. The hon. Gentleman makes a demonstrates that long-term costs have continued to very good point and I am about to come on to some of increase since March, so reform is now essential because the issues about the Scottish Government. The point the costs of public service pensions have risen dramatically that has been underlined several times in this debate is over the past few decades. The fact is that we are all that there are many issues on which the Scottish living longer; the average 60-year-old is living 10 years Government could make a decision but have chosen not longer than was the case in the 1970s. to do so.

David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): I thank my Susan Elan Jones: Will the Minister give way? hon. Friend for the points he is making. Does he agree that unless these reforms go ahead public sector workers David Mundell: I am sure it is not about Scotland, but will not be able to rely on anything, because there might I will. not be any money to pay them anything? That is why it is so important that these reforms go ahead. Susan Elan Jones: I am sure it could be. The Minister refers to transparency and clarity but yet again refuses David Mundell: I absolutely agree. The speech from to answer the question about ministerial involvement, the hon. Member for Arfon seemed to me, particularly or lack of it, in negotiations. Why will he use those on Wales, to be very much an argument for the status words yet refuse to do that? quo. David Mundell: My understanding is that my colleague the Secretary of State for Health is meeting NHS unions Katy Clark: We already know that public sector as this debate is going on. There are significant ministerial pensions are, on average, less than £5,600 a year, so if discussions. they are going to be even lower what will people live on—state benefits? We have set out that the budgets of the devolved Administrations, who have these powers, would not be David Mundell: There is no suggestion that those on adjusted accordingly if they chose not to implement the the lowest pay will receive lower state pensions. The reforms, because they have received higher settlements Labour party has been very keen to engage in such that reflect the proposed changes. If the devolved scaremongering, but the Government’s proposals specifically Administrations do not implement our public sector protect those on the lowest earnings of below £15,000. pensions reforms, Barnett consequentials will be reduced. The Treasury wrote to tell the Scottish Government Before I finish, I want to turn to some of the specifics they had to apply the 3.2% increase in contributions or about Scotland. make up the shortfall and presented them with a choice. They could have chosen not to apply the increased Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP) rose— contributions and make up the difference to the Treasury, but they followed a now familiar pattern: they failed to David Mundell: Perhaps the hon. Lady will agree with take any sort of decision and blamed Westminster at me on them. every turn. Their manufactured outrage is a smokescreen designed to cover the fact that they have no answers for Dr Whiteford: I hope that when the Minister comes the people of Scotland on how they would fund public to explain the protection for low-paid workers he will be sector pensions, never mind the wider state pension. We able to clarify something about which many people in have asked them often enough— trade unions have been asking. Will part-time workers’ earnings and the increase in their contributions be Mr Weir rose— calculated on the basis of full-time equivalent wages? David Mundell: And perhaps the hon. Gentleman David Mundell: They will be based on full-time equivalent will answer us. wages. That point is clear. The difference on pensions between this Government and the Scottish Government Mr Weir: The Minister is talking absolute nonsense. is that we are clear on the points that people might not Will he not accept that if the Scottish Government did want to hear rather than pretending to people that they that, they would lose £1 billion from a budget that is can have everything when that is not sustainable. already being cut by making the payment then losing money through a clawback from the Treasury? Dr Whiteford: The contributions of a woman who works part-time in a professional job—for example, as a David Mundell: I have already set out all the additional nurse or a teacher—but takes home less than £15,000 money that the Scottish Government have received a year will be increased not at the lower rate but at the since the budget settlement last year from which they higher rate of a full-time equivalent. could have made these choices. Sometimes, choices are 447 Public Sector Pensions8 DECEMBER 2011 Public Sector Pensions 448 difficult, but the Scottish Government prefer to pretend David Mundell: One last time. to people that they are on their side while not being willing to take difficult decisions. David Mowat: I am listening very carefully to the Minister’s comments on the interaction between the Ian Murray: You are talking about choices that the Scottish Government and himself. Does he agree that SNP Scottish Government will make and one of the big one of the interesting features of the motion is the last choices they made was to cut capital spending far faster part, which appears to concede the point that the Barnett and far further than your own Government. consequentials should be reviewed and that certain types of expenditure should be taken out of them? If Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. that is a principle that the SNP wishes to adopt, we The hon. Gentleman is referring to the Minister and should consider the Barnett formula more generally should refer to him as the Minister or “he”. “You” and the whole settlement and block grant for Scotland. means the occupant of the Chair, and this is nothing to do with me, fortunately. David Mundell: My hon. Friend makes an interesting point, because that is one issue on which there is an David Mundell: That is a phrase often used in Scotland, absolute divide between Plaid Cymru and the SNP. Madam Deputy Speaker, by one of the— Plaid Cymru wants significant change to the Barnett formula and, as I understand it, the SNP does not. That Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I say to the Minister is part of the inherent illogicality that is at the heart of that I am absolutely aware of the use of “you”, but I their argument. think that in parliamentary debates we should stick to I am surprised that we hear nothing these days about the convention here, as I am sure he agrees. independence, which is relevant. Perhaps that is because Plaid Cymru does not promote independence. I look David Mundell: I will indeed do that, Madam Deputy forward to hearing SNP Members set out exactly how Speaker. an independent Scotland would be able to fund not only existing pensions, but provide enhanced pensions, The SNP Scottish Government have played fast and without consequences for pensioners in Scotland. I am loose with Scotland on pensions. Rather than making sure that we will hear calls for the break up of the responsible suggestions, they resort to scare tactics. In United Kingdom. this motion, the SNP and Plaid Cymru are frightening people by saying that they will receive less pension. The I also look forward to hearing from Labour Members. SNP’s submission to Lord Hutton, as we have heard, I understand that Labour MSPs chose not to take part offered at best no better and in some cases a much in the debate in the Scottish Parliament because they worse deal. The Scottish Public Pensions Agency, an were working in their constituencies that day. I know agency of the Scottish Government, headed by the that the Labour party has not been an effective Opposition Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Sustainable Growth, in Holyrood, particularly since the hon. Member for John Swinney, made a number of interesting suggestions Glasgow East (Margaret Curran) left, but not to turn when it illustrated options for further change. It suggested up at all is taking that to an extreme. I look forward to reducing current employer contribution cap levels with hearing their contributions today. members meeting all costs above that cap. Alongside that, it proposed to reduce the levels of benefits available 2.1 pm without necessarily reducing the levels of contributions. Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): I Pete Wishart: I am listening very carefully to the hon. apologise to the hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) Gentleman. I suppose it should not come as a surprise for missing the first few moments of his opening remarks. to anybody in this House that there are now more giant Let me begin by paying tribute to the contribution pandas in Scotland than there are Tory MPs; listening made by those who work in our public services, including to the Minister, we can see why. Will the Minister 595,000 in Scotland, such as those who care for the sick concede that there was no submission from the Scottish and elderly in hospitals and care homes, those who Government to the Hutton report, but there was a provide inspiration to children through the gift of teaching submission from an agency of the Scottish Government? and those who clean up our communities. They are the backbone of our society. They had no part in causing the great recession or the slump in tax revenues and David Mundell: I do not accept that analysis. The demand in 2008-09. They deserve better treatment from hon. Gentleman might have got a laugh if he had the Government, whose economic policy is based on a thought that up himself rather than stealing it from the further 310,000 of them being made redundant by the Twittersphere. end of this Parliament, and their families suffering an The Scottish Government’s proposals were a toxic uncertain future, and all because of the Chancellor’s cocktail topped up by suggestions to introduce later adherence to a deflationary economic theory that is not retirement ages, change accrual rates, apply changes to working and is sapping hope and potential from all members, not just new scheme members, and move communities across our country. to a defined contribution scheme, which places the risk of uncertainty over the value of the final pension on the Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): member. All those proposals would mean a worse deal I agree with the hon. Gentleman’s sentiments towards for public service employees than the coalition’s proposals. public sector workers and the excellent work they do, but they were a part of unsustainable Government David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): Will the spending, even in years of boom revenues. Does he Minister give way? accept that they deserve an apology for the role that he 449 Public Sector Pensions8 DECEMBER 2011 Public Sector Pensions 450

[Mr Graham Stuart] Government’s plan to take £81 billion out of the economy by 2015 through public spending cuts. However, with and his party played in giving us unsustainable public the lack of demand and growth the biggest problem funding, which has now led to hard decisions having to facing the country today, how will reducing the living be made by the Government? standards of hundreds of thousands of public sector workers on top of the two-year pay freeze increase Mr Bain: The current Chancellor agreed with every consumer confidence or strengthen the retail and service penny piece of spending from 2005 to 2008. He decided sectors, which will be harmed by this tax on public to change course on public spending only when the sector workers? recession was beginning to hit. We can see from the economic illiteracy of the previous Budget and the autumn David T. C. Davies: How much will this plan B that statement that to have adopted a deflationary policy at the hon. Gentleman is outlining add to the national that time would have seen unemployment and public debt, and what will be the increase in interest payments sector redundancies soar even higher. That is not the each year as a result of the money he wants us to approach that would have safeguarded a recovery, and borrow from the banks that he despises? it is one that we were right to reject. Mr Bain: The hon. Gentleman has once again revealed Mr Stuart: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? that the Government simply have a plan for cuts and no plan for growth or jobs. A five-point plan for growth Mr Bain: I will give way to the hon. Gentleman later. and jobs would cut VAT, reduce national insurance and Today’s concessions by the Secretary of State for create jobs, which would help pay down the debt and Health on NHS pension contributions show that the the deficit. Government’s plans are already unravelling under the weight of their own contradictions and injustices. Is it Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab): not disgraceful that the Chief Secretary to the Treasury Does my hon. Friend agree that it is all about priorities did not come to the House today to make a statement and that the Conservative party has the wrong priorities on the details of this partial climbdown, instead of the and we have the right ones? Government briefing the press? By first sight, the concessions stand up to no more Mr Bain: My hon. Friend, who has been involved in scrutiny than the Government’s previous partial climbdown, setting up and running a business, knows what is needed which would have required a near 50% increase in for job creation in these difficult times. annual contributions from affected workers, for up to eight years longer, with the claimed increased pensions Mel Stride (Central Devon) (Con): Will the hon. paid for as much as eight years fewer, losing real terms Gentleman give way? value each year due to uprating in line with the consumer prices index rather than the retail prices index. Unison Mr Bain: I want to make some progress and will give has already said in response to today’s announcements way again in a moment. that a one-year delay before low-paid workers will pay The Government are attempting to create the politics higher contributions is cold comfort. of division between low-paid workers in the private and This is the Government who refuse to impose a tax public sectors and to engage in a race to the bottom on on bank bonuses, but believe that nurses, teachers and public sector pensions instead of focusing on increasing catering staff should face additional tax rises instead. provision among employees in the private sector, but This is the Government who in the autumn statement the public will not be fooled. Cutting a dinner lady’s sought to slash £1.2 billion a year from the tax credits of pension will do nothing to increase the pension of a call these same workers, hurting women and children four centre worker or end unfairness in private pension times more heavily than the balance sheets of the banks. provision. Two in three private sector workers are not in We need a negotiated solution in which both sides give a workplace pension scheme. Two in three public sector ground. The Opposition accept many of Lord Hutton’s staff earning between £100 and £200 a week are in a points, but the Government pre-empted this with the pension scheme, but only one in seven private sector hike in contributions, which must be subject to negotiations. workers in the same wage band are in a pension. Only 11% of private sector employees are in defined benefit Let me set out the reasons why we find the Government’s pension schemes. The Government simply fail to grasp current proposals unacceptable and urge them to produce or take action on the unfairness in the pension packages plans for the future of public sector pensions that of top directors in the private sector, who have pensions genuinely do not penalise those who are least able to worth nearly £4 million on average. shoulder the burden. First, the Chancellor’s proposals are not about fairness or long-term stability. They are motivated by a reckless plan of spending reductions Mr Graham Stuart: Will the hon. Gentleman give that are made worse by his failure to grow the economy way? in the last year and the slump in growth that the Office for Budget Responsibility predicts for this year, next Mr Bain: I will give way to the hon. Gentleman a year and the year after. The Chief Secretary to the little later, because I want to make more progress with Treasury set out in the comprehensive spending review my argument. last October cuts in the public sector pension bill from The average public sector pension in local government next April of more than £1 billion, rising to £2.8 billion is £3,000 a year, and half of female public sector pensioners by 2014-15, coming from the 3.2% hike in contributions receive less than £4,000 a year, or £80 a week. As Lord paid by 750,000 public sector workers, all as part of the Hutton’s report makes clear, the notion that current 451 Public Sector Pensions8 DECEMBER 2011 Public Sector Pensions 452 public sector pensions are gold-plated is entirely wrong. have full-time equivalent earnings above that amount. The Government’s plans mean that a part-time 45-year-old Of that number, 91% are women. Only 16% of public school dinner lady with five years’ service, who is in the sector workers have full-time equivalent earnings of less local government pension scheme and on a salary of than £15,000 a year and would escape the rise in £8,000 per year, would receive £400 a year less in her contributions. The 3% hike in contributions means that pension by the age of 65, or £672 a year less if she took some women would pay almost 50% more in pension it at 68, while she would pay £5,500 more in contributions contributions. by her retirement. Secondly, the OBR’s fiscal sustainability report, published In April, the Government altered the indexation of this July, makes it clear that, even without implementing public sector pensions from the retail prices index measure the recommendations in the Hutton report but taking of inflation to the consumer prices index measure. The into account the likely rise in the elderly population, the TUC estimates that the change has reduced the average cost of providing public sector pensions as a proportion value of public sector pensions by 15%, and the OBR of GDP will fall from 2% to 1.8% by 2030, and to 1.6% has assessed the reduction to be 8.7% by 2017. by 2060. Lord Hutton has not disagreed that, even without those changes, the costs of providing public Dr Whiteford: If the hon. Gentleman is so concerned sector pensions in the long term are sustainable. about the switch from RPI to CPI, why did he not vote The previous Government signed an agreement with against it on 17 February? civil service unions, ensuring that new civil servants entered a career-average scheme with a pension age of Mr Bain: Sadly, this Government will have had another 65 years old, thereby benefiting low-paid workers whose three Budgets and, perhaps, another three autumn pay rises are generally less than inflation and who are statements by the next general election, so we will make unlikely to benefit from regular promotions. The agreement our spending plans clear at that general election—[HON. helped in particular women, black and ethnic minority MEMBERS: “Ah!”] We will, and those plans will not workers and people with disabilities. The National Audit involve the massive cuts in capital spending that have Office, in December 2010, evaluated that 2007 deal and put construction workers on the dole in Scotland—which concluded that it the Scottish National party has made over the past two “reduces costs to taxpayers by 14 per cent”, years. saving £67 billion over the lifetime of existing schemes. Mr Reid: The hon. Member for Banff and Buchan Thirdly, a 3.2% increase in contributions by public (Dr Whiteford) asked a straightforward question. If the sector workers in return for a lower pension would fail hon. Gentleman is now criticising the RPI-CPI switch, the test of fairness at a time when people on low and why did he not vote against it in February? middle incomes face the biggest squeeze in living standards since the 1920s. For a public sector worker on average Mr Bain: I accept that Liberal Democrat Members pay, the effect of this further attack on living standards might be prisoners of a coalition agreement that they is to the tune of a £3,000 cut in gross pay. A worker on a have signed up to for five years, but the hon. Gentleman salary of £18,000 per year could lose more than £1,500 has to explain to the Scottish people why the Chief over the years from next April. Secretary to the Treasury now proposes further austerity, Fourthly, average incomes are set to fall by 7.4% by with £23 billion more in cuts in the first two years of the the end of this Parliament—the largest slump on record, next Parliament, and to explain its effect on the lives of and all because of this Government’s economic failure; the Scottish people. The switch is a permanent change and disposable incomes are set to fall by 4%, according that will still hurt ordinary families even after the public to the Institute for Fiscal Studies in data published last finances have been restored to stability. The Government’s Wednesday. Imposing a higher tax on public sector proposals harm those who are within 10 years of retirement workers at such a time, with those trends in falling and would have to pay the 3.2% increase in contributions disposable income, is grossly inequitable. The hike in for a pension that would be 15% smaller due to the pension contributions, together with the current pay Government’s changes to contributions and indexation. freeze and the future 1% pay cap, will lead to an average The Government’s plans are a further attack on the 16% cut in living standards by 2014 for public sector living standards of women, as 90% of those affected are workers. women, and they add to the effect of the Chancellor’s other cuts in spending, which hurt women twice as hard Mr Graham Stuart: Will the hon. Gentleman share as men. with the House his party’s views? I know that he is putting off an awful lot until near the next general Mel Stride: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? election, but, given his level of criticism, will he explain why he did not vote against the RPI-CPI change, as he Mr Bain: I will in a second. I just want to make has singularly failed to do, and whether he thinks that further progress on this point. I will allow the hon. the system of public sector pensions which this Government Gentleman in. inherited was entirely fit for purpose and in need of no The Government’s plans measure income with reference reform whatever? not to gross pay, but to full-time equivalent earnings, treating a part-time employee on a salary of £14,000 a Mr Bain: The responsibility for the hike in pension year as if they were a full-time employee on a salary of contributions, and for the loss in pensions that public £28,000 a year. The Office for National Statistics’ own sector workers are going to suffer, is the responsibility figures from last year show that 806,000 public sector of this Government, and I will not be deflected from workers who work part-time earn less than £15,000 but ensuring that they take full account of it. 453 Public Sector Pensions8 DECEMBER 2011 Public Sector Pensions 454

[Mr Bain] workers pensions that are affordable, sustainable and fair, that fairness has to apply to those workers and to The Scottish National party should also— the taxpayer. As currently constituted, our pensions are not affordable in the long term, for the simple reason David Mowat: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? that we are all living longer. The motion suggests—the hon. Member for Arfon Mr Bain: I have been generous enough in giving way. (Hywel Williams) referred to this—that these public With respect, I encourage the hon. Gentleman to catch sector pension reforms are about deficit reduction. Given Madam Deputy Speaker’s eye if he wants to make the time frame in which the Government are implementing further points. the changes and the intention to implement them on a The Scottish National party should thoroughly disown phased basis, I am satisfied that that criticism does not the proposals submitted by the Scottish Public Pensions bear examination. These changes are about fiscal Agency, which is accountable to Scottish Ministers, as responsibility and about not saddling future generations its recommendations would be even more unfair for of taxpayers with huge tax liabilities. This is not a tens of thousands of Scottish public sector workers. short-term fix; it is about getting an appropriate balance The Scottish Government have power over the NHS, between the contributions of workers and the contribution teachers, local government, police and firefighters pension of the taxpayer. schemes, with the exception of the local government The motion notes that the changes pension scheme. They have not yet declared what they intend do in relation to local government workers, who “are unfair on public sector workers” face the possibility of paying additional contributions because they to their pensions, so they should end that uncertainty “will have to work longer, pay more and receive less in their and make their position clear now. pension when they retire”. The Government need to change course, to sustain I have to say to the House that that is the reality for all and not destroy the living standards of public sector pension holders. In my last job, I paid into a private workers and to recognise that the crushing austerity pension, and I have just had a look at how much it is that they seek to entrench for years to come will leave a worth. In the space of just two months, the value of that legacy of higher child and family poverty. This country pension pot has eroded by some 25%. I suspect that deserves better than a Government who are out of many workers are having to revise their intentions with touch, out of growth and out of ideas for the future. regard to retirement when they look at how their pension is performing, not least because of the annual raid on Several hon. Members rose— pension funds perpetrated by the previous Government.

Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. A Mr Graham Stuart: My hon. Friend’s point about large number of Members wish to take part in this support for public sector workers is absolutely correct. time-restricted debate. I am going to impose a time limit The fundamental question is about fairness. Opposition from the next speaker of seven minutes, because I have Members are saying that people on lower earnings in now been informed of how long the winding-up speeches the private sector should work longer hours and pay will take. I cannot take account of how many interventions more tax in order to guarantee the pension being provided there will be, however, so the time limit may have to be to public sector workers, while those lower-earning reviewed downwards in order to get everybody in at a private sector workers often have no provision at all. It later stage. is about fairness, and that means that this Government have to take the tough decisions, however unpopular, to 2.19 pm put the situation right. Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock) (Con): I had hoped, when I saw the text of the motion, that there would be Jackie Doyle-Price: My hon. Friend makes my point some maturity in this debate about public pensions, much more powerfully than I do. which have become unaffordable and unsustainable in the long term, but I should have known better. The Hywel Williams: On 30 November, the Prime Minister speech by the hon. Member for Glasgow North East said: (Mr Bain) was disappointingly partisan and failed to “We rejected the idea that we should level down public sector address the long-term sustainability problems that we pensions.”—[Official Report, 30 November 2011; Vol. 536, face. c. 931.] It is a truism that every Member of this House Does the hon. Lady agree with that? appreciates the valuable work done by our public sector workers, and it is not very helpful for any Opposition Member to try to paint Government Members as anti- Jackie Doyle-Price: I totally agree with that comment. public sector. I speak as someone who spent almost the I do not recognise any criticism that we are levelling entirety of my career working in the public sector, down public sector pensions. We are trying to take this having worked for the police service, in local government, forward in a consensual way. and as a regulator. Among my hon. Friends, we have I welcome the fact that in our proposed reforms we NHS doctors, ex-servicemen and ex-teachers, so we are sticking with defined benefit systems. Many private have as much interest in supporting our public sector sector schemes have had to migrate to defined contribution workers as any party in this House. However, we also schemes because of the unaffordability of their existing recognise the need for long-term fiscal responsibility schemes. We recognise that public sector workers are and acknowledge that in delivering to public sector going to have to make a much bigger contribution, but 455 Public Sector Pensions8 DECEMBER 2011 Public Sector Pensions 456 they are doing so to achieve benefits that would be The motion refers to the reports by the National much more expensive if offered to workers in the private Audit Office and the Public Accounts Committee. I am sector. a member of the Public Accounts Committee. While it is true that we were pleased that the reforms introduced Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): One of the by the previous Government were moving in the right things that might have brought more money in and direction, we were not satisfied that they were sustainable created some fairness in the pensions system would in the long term. The NAO would not be drawn on that have been to limit the tax relief on payments into specific issue, because it recognised that it was a political private pensions to the basic rate of tax. Would the hon. decision. The PAC said that the Hutton commission Lady agree with that proposal? provided the opportunity for the Government to develop a clear strategic direction for public service pensions and that we looked forward to those detailed proposals. Jackie Doyle-Price: I am trying to set out a case for The Public Accounts Committee report was therefore wider structural reform. We have a massive structural much more sympathetic to the Government’s approach challenge across the board in pensions for public sector than is indicated in the motion. workers and private sector workers. As regards tax relief That said, the Committee did express concerns about for pension contributions, I will not take any lectures pension reform. We expressed concern over its impact from Labour Members given what was done under the on staff morale. It would be helpful if employers and previous Government. trade unions worked more collaboratively to address It used to be the case that the generous pension that. Sadly, that has not been the case to date. We also provision for public sector workers was a quid pro quo expressed the opinion that many employees did not for working in the public sector, as higher salaries were understand the value of their pensions as part of their traditionally enjoyed more regularly in the private sector. reward. If the colleague I mentioned earlier, who worked That is no longer the case. I refer to the comments by in financial services, did not understand the true value my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto of her pension pot, God help any other public sector Bebb) about average salaries in Wales, which show that worker. public sector workers there often enjoy much higher We must ensure that we do not discourage people levels of reward than private sector workers. This will from saving for retirement. I therefore welcome the reduce dynamism in the labour market and make us less Government’s decision to exclude the lower-paid from competitive. Our economy benefits greatly from having any increases. Obviously, 15% of salary is a lot— people moving from the public sector into the private sector so that we all enjoy their expertise, but when Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. there are such significant levels of differential between salaries, that is not going to happen. If we then add in 2.29 pm the benefits that come from the generous pension provision, Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab): I it becomes impossible for people to move from one job thank Plaid Cymru and the Scottish National party for to another. securing this debate and for ensuring that the damaging Let me give an example. In my last job, I worked for pension plans continue to be at the top of the political the Financial Services Authority, where I had a very agenda. senior colleague who had worked for the Bank of England As the Minister said, the SNP had choices. In relation and the FSA for some 28 years. She was offered a very to the final part of the motion, the SNP gave away its highly paid job with a bank, as one would expect—we choices in refusing the opportunity that it had in the all expect bankers to be offered higher salaries than Scottish Parliament to vary taxes by 3p. If it had public sector workers. When she worked out the cost accepted the need to continue with that, it could have implications of moving from her job, with 28 years of a used it towards the contributions that are required. final salary pension, compared with what she would There has been a lot of talk and nonsense about that have to be paid by the bank to come anywhere close, she from Members who have now left the Chamber. They was somewhat crest-fallen to realise that in the longer know full well that that is the case. term she would be taking a pay cut. That illustrates the competitiveness issues raised by how much we have in Dr Whiteford: It sounds as though the hon. Gentleman our pension schemes. is proposing that we increase taxes in Scotland to pay for pension increases. Is that really what he means? Mr Graham Stuart: In areas such as Wales and the Mr Donohoe: We live, at this stage, in the United north of England, where the discrepancy is particularly Kingdom. If the SNP is suggesting that Scotland has a notable, small businesses and enterprises need people different set of circumstances for pensions than England but they are struggling to recruit because of the level of or Wales, there is something wrong with the system. We salaries in the public sector. If we are to rebalance the live in the United Kingdom and SNP Members have to economy, we need to make sure that our dynamic small accept that. I have more in common with a joiner in businesses have equal and fair access to the labour Newcastle than with the director of the Royal Bank of market. Scotland. That is the way that they should think as well. They had choices and they denied themselves the Jackie Doyle-Price: That is absolutely true. It is not opportunity to make them. very good for growth and competitiveness if we are This matter affects many of my constituents. My pricing growing businesses out of the market simply constituency has 4% more public sector workers than because they cannot afford to recruit staff at sustainable the United Kingdom average. Some 39,300 of my levels. constituents work in the public sector, about two thirds 457 Public Sector Pensions8 DECEMBER 2011 Public Sector Pensions 458

[Mr Donohoe] understand that the proposal was a political choice by the Government rather than being made out of necessity. of whom are women. The pension proposals will affect They have scrapped Labour’s tax on bankers’ bonuses, women more than men, because they are the lower-paid which was to raise more than £3 billion in revenue, and in society. replaced it with a tax on public sector workers’ incomes. Those changes are being made against a backdrop of Mel Stride: As Christmas approaches, could the hon. a two-year pay freeze for public sector workers, which Gentleman find it in his heart to congratulate the of course was announced on the eve of last week’s Government on taking more than 1 million low-paid strike. That was a very provocative statement intended, workers out of tax altogether, many of whom are I suggest, to fan the flames of dissent among public exactly the women he describes? sector workers. The changes also come at a time when inflation is running at about 5%. That in itself has Mr Donohoe: I do not accept that at all. This Government reduced the value of public sector pay by almost 10% in have put up VAT, which is affecting all the low-paid real terms, which is not sustainable in the current climate. people across the country more than it is the likes of the We all understand that we have difficult choices to hon. Gentleman. He should not delude himself that the make, and we all understand the state of the economy, situation is different. but pensions should be considered for the long term. It My mind has been taken away from this subject over is patent that that is not happening. the past week, because young Jack Samuel Donohoe, my second grandchild, was brought into this world at Mr Graham Stuart: Will the hon. Gentleman give five past 12 on Monday. Jack, his mother Pauline and way? his father Craig are all doing very well. I mention that only because when my first grandchild was born about Mr Donohoe: No, I am just about to sum up, so I will three weeks ago, I mentioned it in a debate and I felt not give way again. that it was only right to mention the second. I finally wish to touch on the effects that the changes will have on our armed forces, a section of the community Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. I for whom I have great respect. It goes without saying am sure that the hon. Gentleman will use that point to that this punitive reduction will have a damaging impact talk about how long we are all living and return to the on the morale of those who are prepared to make the motion. ultimate sacrifice for our country. We must not punish our young men and women in the forces because one Mr Donohoe: I am grateful to you, Madam Deputy man cannot see the practical implication of his economic Speaker, for that guidance. I am sure that that is what I policies. was about to say. In about 70 years, my grandchildren will collect their first pension. I want it to be a decent 2.37 pm pension, regardless of whether they are in the public sector or the private sector. Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): First, may I say that I might not be here for the wind-ups, because I have to At the age of 22, I first became involved in pensions catch a train to Brussels for Welsh Affairs Committee as a trustee of the pension scheme at the Ailsa shipyard work? I hope that I will be able to be here, but if not, I where I worked. I have always had an interest in pensions present my apologies in advance. as a result. Many people do not have a clue about pensions. I have always accepted that a pension is This is an important debate, and I am grateful for the deferred income. My pension is part of my income, and opportunity to contribute. One of the disappointments pensions are the income of every person who contributes. so far has been the fact that many Opposition Members It is income that this Government are taking from have implied that coalition Members, whether they are individuals. I know that and other hon. Members should Liberals or Conservatives, despise the public sector in know it. some way. That is simply not the case, and I refute the suggestion completely. As a coalition Member, I find such comments offensive. I depend on state schools for Guto Bebb: I find the hon. Gentleman’s arguments the education of my children, I am the son of teachers very interesting. If pension contributions are deferred and I am married to a public sector worker, so I find income, is not the disparity between pay in the public such comments completely unfair. Opposition Members sector and the private sector in Wales even more scandalous? should consider the matter carefully before making them. Mr Donohoe: The hon. Gentleman obviously does We are aware of the importance of the public sector, not understand what I have just said. It is clear that so much so that we are proposing changes that Lord most people do not understand that pension contributions Hutton, the Labour peer who produced the report on by an employer are deferred income. They are part of a the matter, said were possibly not affordable. person’s income and should be treated as such regardless of whether they are in the private or public sector. That Susan Elan Jones: Can the hon. Gentleman confirm should be known to everybody. that he is not in fact the son of Conservatives? The increase in contributions that was announced in the spending review will not be used to pay for pensions. Guto Bebb: That is an interesting question, and I am My understanding is that that £2.8 billion is specifically not sure. My father certainly ended up voting Conservative, to be used to reduce the deficit—that is in the Red but I cannot comment on my mother, because I think Book. Perhaps the Minister would like to establish in that how somebody votes at the ballot box is their his winding-up speech whether that is right. I also choice entirely. 459 Public Sector Pensions8 DECEMBER 2011 Public Sector Pensions 460

We are quite often accused of attacking the public Cymru. A headmaster from the constituency of the sector or introducing unfair policies, yet the coalition hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams), as it happens, Government are trying to deal on a long-term basis called in and stated that the change from RPI to CPI with issues that the previous Labour Government did was extremely unfair because it would cost him £200,000. not deal with. When we talk about fairness, which is The average private sector pension pot is £30,000. Hon. important in this debate, I wonder where the comments Members can imagine that the response of the general of Labour Members were on the raid on private sector public when they heard that comment was pretty strong. pensions. Where were their comments in defence of The changes that the Government are trying to make people with poor rates of pension provision who were are changes for the long-term, to try to ensure that we saving with their own money—working people saving have a system that works. for their retirement? Where was the Labour party when It is imperative that hon. Members mention some of it came to defending those people when the previous the e-mails that they have received from the trade union Labour Government raided pensions to the tune of movement. I received one this morning from the Public £5 billion a year? That was a scandal. It was not fair, but and Commercial Services Union stating that the claim we heard nothing from Labour Members. that the coalition is trying to protect the lower paid is Even worse, the raid on private pensions was made not sustainable. The PCS directs us to a comment by with the justification of helping young people back into Cathy Newman, who says that it is “fanciful” for the work. In 2010, the rate of unemployment among young coalition Government to try to claim that they are people was higher than in 1997. The raid was unjustified, protecting the lower paid. I am disappointed with that not effective and unfair. comment, but then the PCS does not bother to remind us of other comments that Cathy Newman has made. Sheila Gilmore: The hon. Gentleman’s 2010 figure is She also says: not wrong—[Interruption.] Excuse me! It is true to say, “Having said that though, public sector pensions, even after however, that the money that was put into reducing these reforms, will still be the envy of many a worker in private youth unemployment worked and that youth enterprise.” unemployment was brought down from the very high That is the key point in Wales. We are looking at how we level that was inherited in 1997—[Interruption.] No. can ensure that the people who benefit from extremely Only the recession caused youth unemployment to rise. good pensions contribute a fair amount towards them. For example, will increasing a teacher’s pension contribution Guto Bebb: I find the argument that my point was from 6% to 9% have an impact on their take-home pay? “not wrong” but that somehow the raid was justified to Yes, it will—I would be the first to acknowledge that—but be bizarre to say the least. However, I would challenge it is important to state that to end up with a pension the hon. Lady: if she thinks the raid on private sector similar to what will be available to a teacher as a result pensions was justified because the policy miraculously of the changes, somebody working in the private sector worked—even though youth unemployment went up—I would have to contribute 35% or 38% of their take-home invite her to say that we should reduce public sector pay. contributions because that would help in relation to youth unemployment. Katy Clark: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Guto Bebb: No, I will not take another intervention. Mr Graham Stuart: The Select Committee on Children, That disparity will still exist because the coalition Schools and Families held an inquiry into young people Government value public sector workers. That is not to not in education, employment or training. It showed say that we do not value people who work in the private that before the economic crisis, the number of unemployed sector, but we acknowledge the importance of the public young people was on a level plane with the number sector, we want to protect it and we want to bring in when the previous Government took office. That shows changes that are sustainable, fair to taxpayers and fair that in all those years of economic growth, young to the public sector. I ask any Opposition Member to people were left behind by the Labour Government tell me what is unfair about asking a teacher to contribute before the spike after the financial crisis. What the hon. 9% of salary for a pension that a comparable worker in Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) said was the private sector would have to contribute 35% to absolutely false. achieve. I ask any Opposition Member to stand up and tell me why that is fair. I see nothing. Guto Bebb: I thank my hon. Friend for the clarity of his point. Finally, I will turn to the Welsh context— The proposal is a reasonable one. We are aiming to Katy Clark rose— protect those on lower pay. Some in my constituency of Aberconwy will be astounded by the figure given by the Guto Bebb: I want to get a few points in about Wales hon. Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain)—he to finish. stated that only 16% of public sector workers earn less In this debate, Plaid Cymru Members have said that than £15,000. The average wage in my constituency is they are standing up for their electorate and their workers. £23,000 and the average private sector wage in Wales I applaud them for that. Of course people need to stand is £21,000, so there will be a question as to whether the up for those who elect them to this place, but it is also proposal is unfair. important to point out that the constituency of the That reminds me of the comments made on the CPI parliamentary leader of Plaid Cymru has the highest to RPI change. The change was illustrated with the rate of self-employed people in the United Kingdom. example of a nurse or dinner lady who earns £8,000 a What has Plaid said about supporting the pension year. I recently did a call-in programme on Radio provision of those individuals? 461 Public Sector Pensions8 DECEMBER 2011 Public Sector Pensions 462

[Guto Bebb] Lindsay Roy: The Government pre-empted Hutton and were precipitate in taking forward the action with I accept that Wales has a high percentage of people the 3% increase. working in the public sector, but in many constituencies Not only have public sector workers been penalised, the majority of people are striving to earn a living in the but the wealthier owners in our society, particularly the private sector. When we have a limited amount of bankers, have not been challenged in the same way. As money, the Government have a responsibility to all taxpayers, we have bailed out the bankers, so some of taxpayers to ensure that we have a system of pension the richest people in our society continue to be rewarded, provision that is fair to all. It is simply not sustainable and it was some of them who created this financial to expect the three quarters of the people in Wales who crisis. Patently, we are not all in this together. work in the private sector or are self-employed—many of whom live in the constituencies of Plaid Cymru As a cover for their actions, the Government continue Members—to pay through their taxes for the pensions to peddle a number of myths, which, if Members will of those who will retire on better pensions. pardon the pun, I will try to scotch. First, it is said that public sector pensions are gold-plated. As we have These changes will ensure that the public sector is heard, there are varying figures for this, but they vary protected, but they will share the burden in a slightly between £3,000 to £5,000. fairer way than at the moment, and I applaud the coalition for bringing forward a long-term change with Secondly, it is said that the public sector unions were courage and commitment. spoiling for confrontation. Nothing could be further from the truth. 2.47 pm Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): The Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) (Lab): I congratulate the hon. Gentleman is making a powerful point, and many SNP and Plaid Cymru on their choice of debate today. I of us have sympathy for those on small and medium take part in this debate with a heavy heart, and with incomes, but there are people on large incomes who also genuine anger and frustration at the way in which receive very large pensions. People pay taxation to public sector workers, who have done such invaluable provide those high pensions and that is a matter of work in our communities, have been treated by this concern. Government. Some of what I have to say is constructive reinforcement of points already made, rather than Lindsay Roy: I do not want to be drawn to the lowest unnecessary duplication. These raw sentiments reflect common denominator. We have already heard the issues the views of hundreds of public sector workers in my surrounding tax relief in the private sector. constituency. Industrial action is a last resort and a signal of anger One of the hallmarks of a civilised society is the way and frustration among our constituents. Most of my we treat our citizens—people who have contributed constituents had never taken industrial action in their immensely to society throughout their working lives. life and hope not to do so again. Indeed, for years there was a genuine trust and confidence in the public sector that, in return for often smaller The third myth was that the immediate 3% increase salaries—although sometimes not—compared to the was recommended by Hutton; it was not. The fourth is private sector, they would receive a fair, if generally that the intensive and serious negotiations between modest, pension on retirement, and those pensions had senior Ministers and senior trade union officials had been negotiated in good faith. That trust has well and continued right up until the 11th hour; they had not. truly evaporated. However, that erosion in trust has not Senior leaders last met on 2 November. To add insult to occurred because of the Hutton report, which recognised injury, this coalition Government decided to break the again the need to review pension contributions as people pension link with the retail prices index and the consumer live longer, but because of the cavalier way this Government prices index, thereby having a significant detrimental have proceeded, on a unilateral basis, to disguise the effect on the value of pensions, with a drop of between real purpose of the precipitate 3% increase for public 11% and 14%. sector workers. To put it bluntly, public sector workers All mainstream political parties fully recognise that feel that they are sacrificial lambs. there needs to be a comprehensive review of public The immediate increase has nothing directly to do sector pensions to ensure fairness, sustainability and with the present affordability, fairness and sustainability affordability. At no time did we pretend that challenging of public sector pensions, but everything to do with a decisions would not have to be made about contributions, cynical attack on ordinary working people at a time of entitlement and retirement age. Reform was to be strategic pay freezes, increased VAT, higher fuel costs and a and phased and it would inevitably involve difficult dramatic increase in living costs. The real reason for this decisions as people are living longer. It is now incumbent smash and grab raid on the public sector was blatantly on the Government to engage as a matter of urgency in to contribute to the deficit reduction plan, as highlighted serious and meaningful negotiations at the most senior by the hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams). level and as immediately as possible with trade unions to agree an acceptable settlement. David Mowat: I have listened carefully to the hon. Fundamentally, we need to draw up a long-term plan Gentleman’s argument and he seems to be saying that for decent pensions in the public sector, to continue to he supports the proposals in the Hutton report, but engage high-quality recruits, to retain the many committed does not support what the Government have done. public servants who do a tremendous job on our behalf Which aspects of what the Government are doing are and to award fairly those who reach their pension age. I not in the Hutton report? therefore urge the Government to go home and think 463 Public Sector Pensions8 DECEMBER 2011 Public Sector Pensions 464 again, rescind these unfair short-term changes and to Most public sector pension schemes—with the exception, bring to the table a fair, affordable and sustainable plan I think, of the local government one—are pay-as-you-go for long-term pension reform. schemes. There is not a separate fund, a pot of money or assets that are invested and then pay out. The current 2.53 pm pensions are paid for from current receipts and underwritten more widely by the Government, with the expectation Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): Although that tomorrow’s pensions will be paid for largely by it is always a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for tomorrow’s contributions. With fiscal autonomy or full Glenrothes (Lindsay Roy), I must confess some separation, however, how would all that be disaggregated? disappointment that I have not yet heard from a member It would lead to an enormous muddle over who was of the Scottish National party. In my short contribution liable to pay for what and over who would be liable for to this debate, I should like to focus on what I think is the shortfall in future pension payments accrued under the Scottish nationalists’ real motive behind the motion the current system? Were we to move down that road, I and the debate on public sector pension reform—their would wish to train as an actuary, because a lot of them ambition for the Scottish Parliament to have full control would make a lot of money from disentangling everything. over public sector pensions as part of its drive towards [Interruption.] Indeed, they earn a good amount of fiscal autonomy and full separation. Let me draw the money as it is. But they would earn even more. House’s attention to the words last week of the First Minister, Alex Salmond: Stewart Hosie: The hon. Gentleman cannot argue “The way to stop this Parliament and Government being that these are in-year contributions and then make the hamstrung by the policies of the UK Government is to give us the case that there is a pension pot requiring actuarial rules. financial independence that we require in order to do that.” There is either a pot of money that is paid for and needs That is clearly his aim. [Interruption.] And from a to be disaggregated, or there is not, but he has just said sedentary position, Scottish nationalist Members endorse that there is not one because it is paid for in-year. Which it. That aim is at the heart of the motion. is it? Notwithstanding the local variation within the devolved Iain Stewart: That is not my point at all. Administrations over the administration of pension funds, to which my right hon. Friend the Minister David Mundell: It is just a smoke screen. referred, it would be a hugely retrograde step to move away from a unified United Kingdom public sector Iain Stewart: Absolutely. It is just a smoke screen. pension scheme. It would create an enormous muddle if we had to pull apart the pension contributions, and we have heard Stewart Hosie: There is no unified public sector pension absolutely nothing from the Scottish nationalists about scheme, but there is a police pension scheme, a firefighter how they would do that. pension scheme, a Scottish teachers’ scheme, a local Gordon Banks: Although there might not be a pension government scheme and an NHS superannuation scheme. pot, there is a pot of responsibility. They are all different; there is no unified scheme. The hon. Gentleman is simply wrong. Iain Stewart: I am sorry but I did not catch the hon. Gentleman’s point. Iain Stewart: If the hon. Gentleman forgives me, I was using shorthand. I am well aware that there are Gordon Banks: There is a pot of responsibility. There different schemes for different professions within the might not be a pension pot, but there is a pot of public sector, but in a UK context they are broadly responsibility, and it is that responsibility for future similar between Scotland and England. pensions that the SNP would have to bear. Paragraph 5.26 of the Hutton report reads: Iain Stewart: The hon. Gentleman makes a good “There has been scope for some variations in terms to meet point. local circumstances, but the resulting pension schemes have essentially As well as the nightmare of disaggregating the fund, been the same as those established by the UK Government. That a range of dynamics would be set in train that would be has, for example, helped to prevent pension terms becoming an obstacle to transfers of staff and skills within a sector of the difficult to forecast. I remember when the Scottish public service. It seems reasonable to continue with this approach.” Executive set a pay increase for teachers that was more Paragraph 5.27 reads: generous than that given to teachers in England—I think it was back in 2001. That resulted in a significant “The key design features should be part of a UK-wide policy transfer of teachers wanting to work in Scottish schools framework that extends to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, with limited adaptations of other features to meet local circumstances.” because of the more beneficial terms. If we move from a unified pension scheme, we will set in train in those I agree with that but it would be hugely disruptive to try difficulties in accounting for who is responsible for to break apart what has been a unified system up until paying what. now. Sheila Gilmore: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Mr Weir: How does the hon. Gentleman square that with the Minister’s accusation about the Scottish Iain Stewart: If the hon. Lady will forgive me, I will Government not making changes to the pension scheme? not give way. I have been quite generous, and I want to bring my remarks to a conclusion shortly to allow as Iain Stewart: As I said, in quoting from the Hutton many other Members as possible to take part. report, local variations can be provided for, and that is The other thing about which we have heard nothing exactly what my right hon. Friend the Minister said. from the Scottish nationalists is how they would pay for There is no inconsistency at all. a more generous pension scheme in Scotland—if, as I 465 Public Sector Pensions8 DECEMBER 2011 Public Sector Pensions 466

[Iain Stewart] Like, I am sure, those of numerous other Members, many of my constituents have contacted me to condemn assume, that is their intention. In the confines of a short the Government’s actions on public sector pensions. speech, I shall not go into the whys and wherefores of They have already had forced on them a change in the the cost of separation from the United Kingdom; my pension calculation from RPI to CPI, which Hutton point is that we should consider pension reforms in the says represents a 15% cut in pensions benefits. context of the United Kingdom. There are passionate Dr Whiteford: Why did the hon. Gentleman not vote views on both sides about what that future should be, against the move from RPI to CPI when he had the and I completely respect the views that many hold in chance? arguing for a sustainable pension for the future, which is what we all want. Graeme Morrice: What I am not supporting is this The hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr Donohoe) coalition Government’s position on public sector pensions, is not in his place now, but earlier he referred to his new and I am certainly not supporting the SNP and Scottish grandson. I recall following him in a debate a few weeks Government input into the issue. When they had the ago in which he announced to the House the safe arrival opportunity, they went to the Scottish Public Pensions of, I think, Rosie, his new granddaughter. It is those Agency and argued for a position that was even more children—those being born now—for whom we should draconian than that of the Tories and Lib Dems. be looking to ensure we can afford a decent pension, Many people face plans to increase contributions by whether in the private or public sector, when they reach an average of 3.2%, but, as we heard from several hon. retirement. I hope that we can come to a decent consensus Members, not a penny of the money raised will go into and conclusion on pensions, but it is not helped when pension schemes. The constituents who contacted me the Scottish nationalists raise a smokescreen and attempt are hard-working, public sector employees carrying out to turn this into a constitutional point, in order to vital jobs. They have kept our public services going and achieve their aim of separating Scotland from the rest have already made a major contribution to tackling the of the United Kingdom. Breaking up that system would deficit. They have endured a pay freeze for two years be a nightmare. and face an increase of only 1% when the freeze ends—in effect, another pay cut. They are not only angry about Several hon. Members rose— the Government’s proposals to make them pay more and work longer for less pension but are incensed at the Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. insensitive and misleading way in which Ministers have Before we proceed with the debate, I need to change the dealt with this issue. Above all, they are fed up with time limit again, because there are still more speakers hearing about “gold-plated public service pensions” left than time will allow for. I am reducing the limit to and other misinformation about this complex issue. five minutes per contribution. Again, I cannot calculate The Hutton report clearly rejected the idea that public the consequences of interventions. The time limit has pensions are “gold-plated”. Figures from the National gone from seven to five minutes because things are Association of Pension Funds show that the median taking longer; therefore, it may be necessary to change salary-linked public sector pension currently paid out is it again, although I hope not. Members can either take worth £5,600 a year, compared with £5,860 in the less than five minutes or choose not to take any private sector. Of course, there are many medium and interventions. It is up to them. low-paid workers in the private sector who have little or no pension provision, which is a serious problem, but 3.2 pm that is not a reason for public service pensions to be attacked by this Government. The artificial divide that Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab): Thank you, Madam the Government have sought to foster, pitting public Deputy Speaker. I shall try to take less than five minutes, against private, is failing those at the heart of the which is predicated on my taking no interventions. debate—the millions of people who need a good pension I welcome this afternoon’s debate, although I am on which to retire. somewhat surprised that the Scottish National party, To conclude, it is time for the Government to come whose Members have not given a speech yet, has chosen clean on this issue and drop the myths and misinformation the topic of public pensions, given the very thin ice on about public service pensions that they have been peddling which they find themselves with this issue. While 300,000 for months. Public service pensions were reformed by public sector workers and over 70% of the people of the previous Government and are both affordable and Scotland backed last week’s day of action, the SNP sustainable. The Pensions Policy Institute has estimated sided with the Tories and Lib Dems, and refused fully to that existing pensions reforms have reduced the immediate support pensions justice. Not for the first time, the cost of benefits by 12.5% and should result in savings of SNP’s warm words do not match up to its actions. around £13 billion on the NHS, teachers’ and civil Many are now asking: what is the difference between service schemes, spread over a 50-year period. The the SNP Administration in Holyrood and the coalition question now is whether the Government choose to Government here? The SNP implements Tory cuts in negotiate a fair and reasonable deal or continue with public sector pensions, pay, jobs and public projects. their ideological drive to undermine public services, Indeed, last week’s revelations about the submission to demoralise public service workers and destroy their the Hutton inquiry from the Scottish Government’s pensions. Scottish Public Pensions Agency showed that the SNP is prepared to suggest even deeper cuts to pensions than 3.7 pm those proposed by the Tory-led coalition. Perhaps the Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): I congratulate the SNP Members here today can explain why their party hon. Member for Livingston (Graeme Morrice), as it in Scotland is doing the Tories’ dirty work for them. takes a special kind of brass neck to attack the SNP 467 Public Sector Pensions8 DECEMBER 2011 Public Sector Pensions 468 attitude to strikes when his own party leader condemned about pensions, they should think about how they can the strikes and the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues encourage people in private occupations to save for were quite happy to sit here and debate it on the day. their pensions. We in the SNP are committed to public sector pensions For many years, we have been debating the future of that are affordable, sustainable and fair, but we believe pensions and how to encourage people to save more, the coalition Government are wrong in their policy. It is but increasing contributions by such a large amount at blatantly unfair to increase public sector workers’ a time when family budgets are under so much strain contributions to their pensions schemes at this time and may well reduce the number of people who save for the in this way. Frankly, it is nothing more than a naked future. There is a real chance that many will feel unable cash grab to reduce the deficit and it does nothing to to make the larger contributions and will fall out of address the sustainability of pensions over the longer pension schemes, which could be a disaster for both the term. It is especially wrong to impose an additional 3p future of the schemes and the public purse. My hon. tax on already hard-pressed households that are facing Friend the Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr pay freezes—it will get worse over the next two years, as (Jonathan Edwards) cited the results of an FBU survey, the 1% increase announced by the Chancellor last week which suggested that 27% of people could fall out of is highly unlikely to keep pace with the rate of inflation— their schemes. In his autumn statement, the Chancellor significant increases in national insurance contributions, threw petrol on the flames of public sector discontent higher VAT , rising inflation and rocketing costs for fuel by casually introducing the idea of regional pay, which, and energy. if implemented, would have a serious impact on Scotland, Indeed, it has been calculated that the impact of pay Wales, Northern Ireland and the north of England. freezes and pay restraint over three years is costing public sector workers 15% of the value of their income, Ian Murray: I have a tremendous amount of respect while the change from RPI to CPI, which I am glad my for the hon. Gentleman, but will he tell us what were the hon. Friends voted against, could worsen benefits by a SNP’s proposals to the Hutton review, so that we can similar amount. That is a dramatic reduction in living make an objective assessment of its position in relation standards both for those working in the public sector to that of the coalition Government? and for pensioners. Throughout this pensions debate, many Government Mr Weir: I was about to deal with the position of the supporters have consistently referred to gold-plated pensions Scottish Government. They have taken positive action in the public sector and, frankly, given the impression to help to protect household budgets by, for example, that anyone retiring from the public sector receives a freezing council tax for the rest of the parliamentary substantial pension. That is utter rubbish: many public term, increasing the Scottish living wage to £7.20 an sector workers are in low-paid jobs and their pension hour for all staff for whom they are responsible, and entitlement is in line with what they earn and pay into committing themselves to imposing no compulsory the schemes, so the amount they get paid as pensions is redundancies. In contrast to the Westminster Government, correspondingly modest. Most public sector pension the Scottish Government have sought to focus on protecting payments amount to less than £5,600 a year, and in Scottish household budgets. local government the figure falls to £3,000, while 50% of The amendment tabled by the Labour party referred women pensioners receive less than £4,000 a year, or to the devolved Administration. In Scotland— £80 a week. That is hardly a fortune, especially in comparison with the grotesque amounts paid to the Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. disgraced ex-bankers who caused the economic mess in The amendment was not selected. As the hon. Gentleman the first place. knows, he cannot refer to an amendment that has not been selected, and I am sure that he is not going to do Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) (Con): Does the so. hon. Gentleman not think that there is at least some fairness in a system that puts several thousand pounds Mr Weir: Much of the debate has concerned public more into the pension pot of the lower-paid workers pensions in Scotland, Madam Deputy Speaker. I mentioned whom he mentioned, who will no longer pay for the the amendment merely in passing, but I apologise for largest pensions in the public sector under the new doing so. scheme? There are five public sector schemes in Scotland—for NHS workers, teachers, the police, firefighters and local Mr Weir: But the lower paid are being hit in every government—all of which are subject to constraints. other way. They are being hit by higher VAT, the higher Formal approval is required from the Treasury for fuel price and everything else. Their living standards are legislative changes to the NHS and teachers’ schemes. It falling. controls the purse strings. Scottish Ministers can determine Lord Hutton’s report also firmly rejected the claim the design of the police and firefighters’ schemes, although that public sector pensions were gold-plated. It seems to to date they have been negotiated on a UK-wide basis, a me that the answer is not to attack public sector pensions, position supported by the Labour party.Scottish Ministers but to take action to try to help private sector pensioners. can decide on the funded local government scheme as Unfortunately, however, previous attempts by Government long as the scheme regulations comply with primary to persuade people to opt out of state pensions, and the legislation. state second pension, into private pensions, and the The Scottish Government sought to protect public mis-selling that went on, have undermined confidence sector workers in Scotland from the measures proposed in private pensions, especially among those on lower by the UK Government, but the Chief Secretary to the incomes. If the Government really want to do something Treasury made it absolutely clear that he would reduce 469 Public Sector Pensions8 DECEMBER 2011 Public Sector Pensions 470

[Mr Weir] Williams) said in his opening speech that some parties’ Members did not raise this topic; I suggest he looks at the Scottish budget if they did so. In a letter to the his own house first. Finance Secretary, John Swinney, on 5 September, he stated: Jonathan Edwards: The hon. Gentleman’s party has “If you decide not to take forward these changes, the Treasury had 36 opportunities to raise the issue since the Government will need to make corresponding adjustments to your budget. I made their public pension proposals, so why has it not would have to reduce the Scottish Government’s budget by £8.4million raised it for debate in the House? for every month’s delay.” The Scottish Public Pensions Agency issued a document John Robertson: I thank the hon. Gentleman for putting forward options. Its contents were not Scottish giving me a further minute, and I will now carry on with Government policy, nor were they SNP policy, and at my speech. no time have the SNP and the Scottish Government The hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) has made such suggestions. The document simply set out referred to my right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy options and factual information. It is ludicrous for the and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) removing, when he was two main parties to have a duopoly of despair and to Chancellor, the £5 billion tax break to the insurance attack the public sector based on the document—the industry, which was worth more than £100 million at SNP has done much more for public sector workers in the time. However, the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues Scotland than either of them has done in this Chamber. always let slip from their minds the actions of their Iron Lady. I have not seen the recent film on Margaret 3.14 pm Thatcher, but I am reliably informed by someone who John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab):It is an has that, sadly, it misses out how in 1980 she broke the honour to follow that rant by the hon. Member for link with final salaries, thereby hurting 10 million pensioners Angus (Mr Weir). I have great respect for him, and I at the time and millions more since, and that that cost a never thought I would see the day when he would lose minimum of £15 billion a year. That puts the £5 billion it, but there we go. into perspective. I notice that the hon. Gentleman is no longer in his place; I think he left the Chamber about I had prepared a longer speech than I am able to five seconds after finishing his speech. His train must make under the current time constraint, but I do want have been leaving early. to make a few points. Thinking of the two Government parties reminds me that this is Christmas time, and as Let me return to the question of why this is an Scrooge is one of my favourite characters I am waiting important issue to me and my constituents. I have for one of them to come up with a few statements such 13,500 pensioner households in my constituency. We as that we should “reduce the surplus population” or, have one of the highest concentrations of pensioners in “Are there no workhouses?” That seems to be their Europe and the highest amount of single women pensioners policy on pensions and pensioners. in the entire country. About 6,500 claim pension credit in my constituency alone, which is consistently ranked Mike Crockart (Edinburgh West) (LD): Does the seventh out of all parliamentary constituencies, so hon. hon. Gentleman welcome the fact that 1 million pensioners Members can see why this subject is so important to me. in Scotland are now £5.30 a week better off because of My home town of Glasgow is a fairly youthful city this Government? compared with others in Scotland, however it has a considerable and growing elderly population. We face John Robertson: I thank the hon. Gentleman for the large and severe pockets of pensioner poverty—my extra minute his intervention gives me. constituency is, sadly, not immune to that. In addition I found it surprising that the nationalist parties wished to the 8% of Scottish pensioners who live in absolute to hold a debate on this issue as I could not remember poverty, one in 10 over-65s are classed as “materially their raising it in the past. In fact, so bad was my deprived”. When I was elected for my constituency in memory that I contacted the Commons Library to find 2000, four out of five single pensioner households in out when a nationalist Member had last raised the issue. Scotland lived on an annual income of £15,000 or less. This was the response: So hon. Members can understand why I feel that we “Thank you for your enquiry which was passed to me by the should not be heading for a race to the bottom on Library’s Business and Transport Section. You asked for statements pensions. I want good pensions for those in both the in the House by Scottish National Party and Plaid Cymru MPs private and public sectors. on public sector pensions. Unfortunately, there were barely any I recall a debate in 2002 when the Minister for Universities mentions of public sector pensions so I have included references and Science, the right hon. Member for Havant to pensions in general in case they are useful.” (Mr Willetts) complained about the then Labour The House of Commons Library staff could find only Government using misleading tactics. He must share four examples of the SNP raising this subject, and those my anger at the current Government’s misleading statistics examples were far from “useful”. I felt relieved that I on public sector pensions, for example, the constant use did not give the Library staff too much work to do. of enormous figures for overall pensions liability. There The Library searched back to 2006 and found that is a frequent tactic to cite figures as a proportion of a the hon. Members for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) single year of GDP, ignoring the fact that payments on and for Moray (Angus Robertson) have not made any pensions are spread. To listen to the Government, we references to pensions in the Chamber during that time. would think that these pension schemes are all in a When the Library staff asked if I wanted them to search ruinous state, but as of 31 March 2010, local government back even further, I was worried they would have to call pensions in Scotland had a total of 226,554 active in an archaeologist. The hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel members making contributions, and 158,511 pensioners 471 Public Sector Pensions8 DECEMBER 2011 Public Sector Pensions 472 and dependants in receipt of payments. The local that people will have to pay more with the 3.2% increase, government scheme in Scotland has funds worth more will have to work longer and will get a worse pension at than £20 billion, which is equivalent to a fifth of Scottish the end of it. GDP. It could pay out all its pensions for the next We have heard a lot about teachers from both the 20 years without a single penny more in contributions— Minister and from the hon. Member for Aberconwy there is currently a £300 million surplus. (Guto Bebb) and teachers are a good example. We hear The reason I am standing up to speak today is that so much about the deficit but this debate is not about we have to stand up for the pensioners of the future. I that; it is about the long-term arrangements that must believe, as I said in my speech in 2002, that all parties be put in place. The Government’s proposals are not should put aside political points of view and stop their about the sustainability of the schemes. We must ensure point scoring on pensions to make sure that they represent that both employers in the public sector and individuals the people who really count. That offer was refused by are putting enough in. The proposals for teachers mean those now on the Government Benches. I still make that that compared with the current scheme, which costs offer, because I still think that we should all sit down to 20.5% of pay with the employer paying 14.1% and the solve the pension problem as a group, not just as individual 6.2%, the employer’s contribution would be individuals. reduced to 10.5%. We are seeing that throughout the proposals put on the table by the Government. Several hon. Members rose— The Government are using the economic situation to cut their contribution, as an employer, to public sector Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. I pensions while at the same time increasing the contributions am going to have to change the time limit again if we of the worker. Many people will opt out of pension are to get all the speakers in. I am going to reduce it to schemes if the proposals go ahead. Let us ensure that four minutes from the next speaker. I make the same over the coming weeks we put pressure on the Government point as I have made every time I have reduced the time so that they seriously consider public sector pensions limit, which is that interventions are not included in and make proposals that will lead to pensions that that calculation. If extra time is added for interventions, people can live on. some Members will now not be called in this debate. I hope that is clear. 3.27 pm 3.23 pm Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): I want to pay tribute to Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab): I all those public sector workers who work hard, often in strongly welcome the chance to debate this topic. I will gruelling and unglamorous tasks, day in, day out. Some focus very much on the Government, rather than on are very highly qualified and have chosen to work in the what the SNP Administration in Edinburgh are going public sector, passing up opportunities to work more to do, because the focus has to be on making sure that lucratively in the private sector. Traditionally, the pay-off we have national schemes that ensure that everybody in has been job security and pensions. Those who have this country has a decent pension. The negotiations are perhaps not been so lucky as to get many qualifications happening down here, but the historical reality has been are often in thankless tasks for which they get very that the Scottish schemes have simply led to a mirroring modest pay—cleaners, refuse collectors and so on. They of whatever has been decided in the national discussions. receive low wages and meagre pensions. The average So people in Scotland are looking closely at what the public sector pension of £5,600 and the average for coalition Government are doing. It is very unfortunate local authority workers of £3,000 are far from the if we try to do anything other than maximise the gold-plated myth peddled by the Conservative party pressure on this Government at the moment. and its friends in the media. When we have debates on this issue, Government Back in 2007-08, there were tough negotiations on Members all too often raise the appalling situation of public workers’ pension schemes, and I am sure that I private sector pensions in this country. We do need to was not the only Member who received correspondence, treat that as a priority, because the loss of manufacturing, particularly from teachers. The then Labour Government the rise of low-paid and insecure jobs in the private entered into dialogue and negotiation, however, and sector, and the decision by firms to take payment holidays unions played their part responsibly, accepting the need and by employers to fail to invest in private pensions to make public sector pensions sustainable. Changes schemes when times are good have led to so many were agreed. The deal negotiated with the previous private schemes coming to an end. As we have already Government in 2007 made costs stable, and the National heard, however, on average public sector pensions in Audit Office described it in the following way: this country give people only up to about £5,600 a year. “The 2007-08 changes are likely to reduce costs to taxpayers of The reality is that those people will not be able to live on the pension schemes by £67bn over 50 years, with costs stabilising that kind of income in retirement. at around 1% of…GDP or 2% of public expenditure. This” I believe the debate we need to have is about how to is “a significant achievement”. Before the Government set up schemes in both the private and public sector that made any changes at all, public sector pensions had ensure we are saving sufficiently both individually and both been reformed and made affordable. collectively to ensure a decent income in retirement. I I turn now to the division between the private and am therefore concerned that the Government are moving public sectors, which is a disgraceful way to approach away from the decision on auto-enrolment, which will this topic. Frankly, we are all involved in both, whether happen in May 2015 rather than April 2014. The through family members or people in our communities. Government’s proposals for public sector pensions mean John Hannett, the general secretary of the Union of 473 Public Sector Pensions8 DECEMBER 2011 Public Sector Pensions 474

[Nia Griffith] the lead taken on pensions by the private sector, but I believe that that would be a race to the bottom on Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers—a union that pension provision. operates entirely in the private sector—says that it supports The private sector visited it pensions long before the the strikes: world-wide finical crisis hit. It took contribution holidays “We support our colleagues in the public sector in their fight and savagely stripped employees of decent pensions for fair and decent pensions and to protect the services which our while excluding new employees from joining final salary members rely on.” schemes. Indeed, I recall my predecessor, the late David We all know that the real scandal is in private sector Cairns, some time ago naming and shaming a major pensions. Sometimes we are told that the costs or the private sector employer in my constituency over its recession have meant that nine tenths of final salary unacceptable cuts to its pension scheme. pension schemes in the private sector, once the most Pete Wishart: We have just discovered that Labour popular arrangement, are now closed. The fact is, however, Members are down to a one-line Whip, which means that the employers have realised that they can get out of they will not vote on the motion. Surely they could put their obligations to society and their employees, leaving aside what they describe as their historic hostility to the the taxpayer to pick up the costs of supporting people SNP and do the right thing by public sector workers by in retirement. supporting the motion. Why are they not backing it? One of the biggest dangers is that more people will opt out of pension arrangements. There are three main Mr McKenzie: I thank the hon. Gentleman and will risks associated with that. First, if people earning less now carry on. than the average are asked to contribute about £80 a We want to see not an equality of misery in pensions, month, they will face a terrible choice of either feeding but fairness. Public sector pensions are not gold-plated, and clothing their children now or paying towards a but I accept that they require collaborative review. Instead, pension for their retirement. That will leave many short public sector workers are being told that they must of a pension when they retire. work longer, pay more and expect less. Trade union Secondly, that leaves a huge problem for the state, leaders who called the strike action on 30 November because of what it will have to pick up. We will be sitting were branded as militants by Government Ministers, on a ticking time bomb. With private sector pensions and the Prime Minister described the day of action as a going and public sector workers opting out, a huge “damp squib”—hardly diplomacy, if they are indeed number of people will be totally reliant on the state in engaged in negotiations. their old age. We again see the Government promote policies that are hurting but not working, and their plan to guide us Thirdly—a problem for the present day—if people out of these difficult times is clearly failing. For Scotland, are not contributing now, there will soon be a cash crisis this is a double whammy, with the SNP Government in in those pension pots, which is something I do not think Scotland in many ways excelling this Government in the has been fully addressed. There will be a present-day failure league. We need to accept, as the Hutton report shortfall in the money available for paying out to the did, that public sector pensions are not gold-plated and people who have paid in to their pension schemes. that many public sector workers, especially women, will Those are very real problems. Imposing a 3% increase retire on an annual salary pension of around £5,600 a on people in this undemocratic and devastating way is year. completely unacceptable. It needs a total rethink, and the sooner the better. Mr David Hamilton (Midlothian) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend agree that many Labour Members are aghast at the SNP’s duplicity? On one hand the SNP is 3.30 pm attacking the Opposition, and on the other hand it is putting forward proposals that are draconian, compared Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab): I think that we with what the Opposition have done. Indeed, it could all agree that there is an economic crisis in the UK, but do otherwise if it wanted. it was caused neither by excessive public spending nor by the “gold-plated” pensions and pay of public sector Mr McKenzie: I agree. Public sector pensions are not workers. It was caused by a recession triggered by the gold-plated, and many, especially women, who work in banking collapse of 2007. Employees in the public the public sector will retire on an annual pension of sector have been subject to pay freezes and continuous some £5,600—a paltry £100 per week. They ask for efficiency savings, and time and again they have risen to fairness in their pensions now if they are not to ask for the challenge and accepted that they need to play their benefits in their retirement. part in these difficult times. They now find the future quality of their retirement at stake and their much-prized 3.35 pm pensions, which are possibly one of the main attractions John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): I just of a public sector career, will be greatly reduced. want to make a couple of brief statements, and I The Government tell us that the average public sector apologise for not being present during the opening worker will be better off following the change to their speeches, but I was actually speaking at a conference on pension, but what they quote as average earnings is not vulnerable workers. what Opposition Members regard as average earnings. I just ask the Government to let the negotiators Many public sector workers in my constituency of negotiate. When the civil service unions attended the Inverclyde earn nowhere near the average the Government scheme’s talks this week, they were told what they can quote and will not be better off with this change in their and cannot discuss. They cannot discuss pension age, pension. The Government tell us that we must follow despite the previous assurances that Ministers have 475 Public Sector Pensions8 DECEMBER 2011 Public Sector Pensions 476 given them. All schemes have to relate to the state public service, who are willing to settle and who do not pension age, so, even though some schemes may be able want to seek further industrial action. I warn the to afford a pension age of 65 years old, the Government Government that if they do not negotiate properly there are refusing to allow them even to negotiate it. The will inevitably be more disruption and more industrial unions are also told that indexation is off the agenda, action—and that the Government will be to blame and that the index has to be CPI, not earnings, as for it. Hutton recommended, or RPI, as currently. The schemes have to be career-average. The civil 3.39 pm service unions are not allowed to discuss contributions, Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): I do not which have to increase by 3.2% so that the average intend to repeat the statements about the importance of contribution is 5.6%. Costs always have to be within the public sector pensions that have been made so eloquently scheme’s limit, but in addition the only transitional by many of my colleagues. protection that they can discuss is 10 years for those I am surprised that SNP Members, who among others aged 50, plus the three to four years of tapering for have called this debate, have apparently not wanted to those just below that age. Even if the unions find speak in it, because only one has done so. However, savings, they cannot use them in another way for further some of the comments they have made by way of protection. They cannot discuss Treasury assumptions interventions need to be addressed. It is not true to say about the discount rate, actuarial reductions for early that Labour Members have not raised the subject of retirement or any normal pension scheme issues. They public sector pensions in this House. Perhaps SNP are told also that they cannot discuss the abatement Members were not here on 30 November to hear what rules, which enable staff to take their accrued pension the Leader of the Opposition said at Prime Minister’s and work on. They can discuss the accrual rate, but that questions and were not here during the Opposition day is all pre-determined by the other elements not being debate that followed, when several Members from my open for negotiation. party made very strong speeches in support of public So, what the civil service unions are allowed to discuss sector workers and on the pensions issue. in the negotiations is nothing of substance, and in Moreover, in this week’s Opposition day debate on reality we face further industrial action because the the economy, only one SNP Member was present, for a Government will not allow negotiations to take place. short time—the hon. Member for the Western Isles The Government take an intimidatory attitude by putting (Mr MacNeil). I will not attempt to pronounce the things on the agenda and, if they do not get their way, Gaelic name for his constituency because, as a lowland then taking them off. Scot, Gaelic is not native to me, and I am not going to I echo what other Members have said about the pretend that it is. That was the extent of their interest in contempt with which negotiators have been treated. I debating the economy and the issues that are so important watched the discussion between the Minister for the in underpinning this debate on pensions, because unless Cabinet Office and Paymaster General, the right hon. we get the economy right, we will be in some difficulty. Member for Horsham (Mr Maude) and Mark Serwotka, Today, several SNP Members left the Chamber early, the general secretary of the Public and Commercial presumably to put out their press releases to say how Services Union, when the Minister accused him of not they had raised this important issue, but in reality they being at meetings. I now discover that Mark Serwotka have not. was at every meeting that the Minister was at—matched In the motion, SNP Members condemn the coalition on every occasion. If the Government are not deliberately Government for not being prepared to give them the provoking this dispute, they are walking into further money directly so as to be able to relieve some, but by industrial action because of their refusal to allow no means all, public sector workers in Scotland of the negotiations to take place. contribution increase. They cannot have their cake and I have toured around, talking to individual unions, eat it within the system. They cannot have the Barnett and I have spoken to several union executives this week, consequentials when they like them and decide that but the depth of anger does not come from general they do not want them when they do not like them. Yes, secretaries or from executives; it comes from rank-and-file it would be different if they achieved independence, trade unionists, most of whom have never taken industrial although at that point we would have to ask, “How are action in their lives but all of whom are dedicated to the you going to afford all the things that you say you are public service that they seek to provide. going to afford?” So I just appeal to the Government: start negotiating David Mundell: Is the hon. Lady as surprised as I am properly; allow proper discussions to take place; seek to that we have not heard a single mention of independence avoid industrial action; stop the abuse—the “damp from the SNP Benches? As I understood it, that was squib” provocations that the Prime Minister has made; their solution to all the pension issues in Scotland. and start telling the truth about what people are going to get, because they are going to work longer, get less Sheila Gilmore: I suspect that in the fantasy world of and pay more. If we look at the calculations that have the debate on independence, as it tends to be, SNP been made using the Government’s own calculator, we Members would indeed say that that is the answer, but find that no one will get more unless they work for they have to know how they would fund that and about many more years, and teachers and others do not want issues to do with tax and making people as well off as to work until they are 68 years old just to get some form possible. of pension income that they can live off. During the SNP Member’s brief appearance in Tuesday’s I urge the Government to get back to the negotiating debate on the economy, he kept talking about the table and to take their restrictions off the negotiations. Scandinavian economies. Of course, in the Scandinavian They are dealing with people who are dedicated to economies there is a very different view of taxation. It is 477 Public Sector Pensions8 DECEMBER 2011 Public Sector Pensions 478

[Sheila Gilmore] They matter to the rest of us who depend on public services and who realise that our public service work disingenuous of the SNP to want to pose as a low-tax force are critical to the delivery of high-quality services. party and tell people that they can have wonderful Above all, they matter to all of us who care about the public services and, at the same time, council tax freezes— welfare of older people in retirement. All of us want to which, by the way, are very regressive because they most enjoy a decent level of income. For parts of the country benefit the people who are best off. The SNP has to that have a high dependency on the public sector work decide where it wants to be. It deliberately put such a force, the issue is even more acute. sentiment in the motion because it wants to be able to say that Labour Members will not support it. David Mundell: What I do not understand about the We are in support of public sector workers. We do hon. Lady’s logic is that the Scottish National party has not think that what the Government are doing is right. said that it wants to have a referendum on independence We feel, very strongly, that we have to stop what this for Scotland in the next four years. The area on which Government are doing, which is constantly to pit one that would most significantly impact is pensions and group of workers against others. They are setting public pensioners, yet in her contribution and in the contributions against private, setting people in work against people of her fellow SNP Members, we have heard nothing who are out of work, and stirring up what I heard about independence or about how pensions would be described on two occasions on Radio 4 at the weekend provided, guaranteed or sustained in an independent as an atmosphere of anger and bitterness. In the discussions Scotland. on phone-in programmes about what is happening, all the clips were of people shouting at each other, saying, “Why should I, as a private sector worker, pay for your Dr Whiteford: I refer the right hon. Gentleman to the pension?” No commentator said, “Where is that anger Order Paper and the motion that we are debating. It will being generated from?”, but it is being deliberately come as no surprise to anybody in the House that I stirred up by this Government— believe in independence—I am an SNP Member. However, we are talking about public sector pensions and the Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. I am Government’s proposals. It might be a nice distraction sorry, but we have to start the wind-ups now. for the Government to talk about other issues which are equally relevant to Scotland’s future. 3.44 pm One of the most disappointing things about this Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): This debate has been that the Government have tried to has been a wide-ranging debate and I think that there is defend their proposals by constantly highlighting the agreement across the House that pension provision in disparity between public and private sector pensions. the long term needs to be affordable, sustainable and We owe a debt to the hon. Member for North Ayrshire fair, not just for public sector workers but for all old-age and Arran (Katy Clark) for pointing out the detrimental pensioners. state of private sector pensions. When the Government Although we agree on those long-term objectives, the responded to the interim Hutton report, my understanding central contention of the debate has been that the was that they accepted its conclusion that pensions short-term measures to reduce the deficit will hit public should not become a race to the bottom. However, sector workers but be of no benefit to them. The issue at speaker after speaker on the Government Benches has the heart of the debate is that the proposed 3.2% increase resorted to the argument that because private sector to public sector pension contributions is a straightforward pensions are really poor, public sector pensions should cash grab by the Treasury on public sector workers. It be levelled down. That will not in any way address our has nothing to do with building long-term sustainability pensions challenge. It is not sustainable and it is not fair into our pensions system, but is unequivocally a short-term to anyone in the private or public sector. measure to cut the deficit. We have some of the highest levels of pensioner Several hon. Members have pointed out that this is poverty in Europe. Currently, 30% of pensioner households not fair and not affordable for a public sector work and a massive 43% of single pensioners, most of whom force who are already feeling the full effects of austerity are women, are in receipt of income-related benefits, measures that have gone too far, too fast. Most public whether that is pension credit, housing benefit or council sector workers are facing a two-year pay freeze, a 1% pay tax benefit. Having large numbers of older people on rise in 2013, increases in VAT and national insurance, means-tested benefits is not the way to do things. It is and inflation of more than 5%. The cost of their the price that we pay for poor pension provision. It is essentials, such as heating, food and fuel, is going not an efficient way to support people in retirement. through the roof. The pressure on household budgets is The other big myth that has been well and truly intense and is getting worse. blown out of the water today is that public sector In that context, increasing pension contributions for pensions are gold-plated. Quite simply, they are not. short-term gain is just the wrong thing to do. It is being Member after Member has pointed out that most public done at the wrong time, for the wrong reasons and in servants retire on modest incomes. The PCS points out the wrong way. It carries the risk that large numbers of that its average member’s pension is only £4,200 year. people, especially part-time workers, will drop out of That is £80 a week, which is only £4 above the Government’s schemes altogether because of the immediate financial pensioner poverty figure. If such people’s pensions are pressures that they face. reduced or they opt out because of the new conditions I think, and most Members on both sides of the and contribution increases, it will simply put the burden House agree, that public sector pensions matter. They back on means-tested benefits to keep people out of matter to the one in five people who are directly affected. abject poverty in their old age. 479 Public Sector Pensions8 DECEMBER 2011 Public Sector Pensions 480

In local government, in which 67% of the work force The unions recognise that the Scottish Government are women, the average woman’s pension is only £2,800 have very limited room for manoeuvre. Their choice is a year. Almost half of local government workers are on very simple: they impose the increases or take the pensions of less than £3,000, and even in the NHS, in money out of another part of the budget, in other which salaries are much higher because of the professional words pay twice. It is clear that even if the Scottish qualifications involved, three quarters of members are Government were to ignore the requirement and try to still on pensions of less than £9,000 a year. find the money from somewhere else, the Government The Government have tried to sell us their proposals would cut that money from the budget. on the basis that low and middle-income earners will be Mr Hamilton: Will the hon. Lady give way? protected from contribution increases, and may even be better off as a result. That is one of their key claims. Dr Whiteford: Not on that point. However, because of the switch in indexing from RPI to I am grateful to the hon. Member for Hayes and CPI, all public sector workers will lose out in the longer Harlington (John McDonnell) for pointing out the approach term, and they will all be working longer. That indexing that the Government have taken in the negotiations switch has been mentioned in the debate, and I am sorry with the trade unions. It seems to me that they have that more Members did not vote against it when they used a similar approach with the Scottish Government, had the chance back in February. They have a chance to whose choice has been limited. They have been dictated rectify that now, and I hope that they will support us in to, and there has not been a basis for a sensible, grown-up the Lobby today. negotiation. Perhaps the most misleading aspect of the Government’s Another point made in the debate has been about the approach to the contributions increases is that they Scottish Public Pensions Agency. The key point is that it have said there will be protection for low-paid workers. was not recommendations that were put forward but a As the Minister admitted earlier, the contributions of series of theoretical options. That was part of the part-time workers will be calculated on the basis of process of the Hutton consultation, and it was quite full-time equivalent salaries, which will have massive proper for the Scottish Government to set out a range implications for women, who make up the vast majority of theoretical positions. I am sorry that that has dominated of part-time workers. About 32% of the women in our the debate so much. work force work part-time so that they can combine We all recognise the challenges of pension reform, employment with unpaid work in the home or looking but we want it to be done in a truly equitable way that after others. does not encourage a race to the bottom. We have to The Government have said that workers on incomes acknowledge the progress that has already been made under £15,000 will not pay increased contributions, and to put public sector pensions on a more sustainable that other low earners on up to £21,000 will pay reduced footing and the mechanisms that already exist, but contributions, but when we look at the small print, we punishing public sector workers through a short-term see that those thresholds, calculated on the basis of tax grab will do absolutely nothing to tackle the inadequate full-time equivalent salaries rather than their actual pension provision in the private sector. It is nothing but take-home pay, will mean that even professional people a tax grab, and it is disappointing that the Government such as nurses and teachers who work part-time will have relied so heavily on the arguments that we have have their pension contributions increased. heard today. In tough times, all people realise that they have to take a share of the pain, but public sector Mr Reid: But in Scotland, the Scottish Government workers do not want to carry the can. decide the pension contributions of teachers, health service workers, local government workers, the police 3.54 pm and firemen. If the hon. Lady believes in her argument, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales does that mean that when the SNP implements the (Mr David Jones): This has been a lively and at times contribution increases in Scotland, it will make an impassioned debate—quite understandably, because the exemption for low-paid part-time workers? issue that we have been discussing is of the most extreme importance. Dr Whiteford: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for allowing me to point out two things. The first is the I should like to put a number of matters squarely on Scottish Government’s living wage, which has been record at the very start of my remarks. First, I wish to raised to £7.20. That will significantly protect the household make it absolutely clear that Government Members income of low-paid workers. The second and more greatly value the services that the public sector performs, substantial is the role of the Scottish Government in the both in contributing to the economy of this country matter. There has been a lot of chat around the Chamber and in providing the services that each and every one of about the room for manoeuvre that the Scottish us needs. To suggest that we do not is grossly to misrepresent Government do or do not have. Let me make it clear the case. that the Chief Secretary to the Treasury wrote to the Secondly, I wish to object most strongly to the expression Cabinet Secretary in Scotland, John Swinney, pointing “gold-plated pensions”, which has been bandied about out that the Treasury would cut the budget by £8.4 million on the Opposition Benches. No one on the Government a month—that is half a billion pounds over the spending side of the Chamber is in any way suggesting that public review period—if the Scottish Government did not sector workers enjoy gold-plated pensions—I have not impose the pension increases. heard that expression voiced by Government Members. Nevertheless, it was clearly a deliberate tactic on the Mr David Hamilton: Will the hon. Lady give way? part of Opposition Members to misrepresent the position by suggesting that Government Members regard the Dr Whiteford: Not at the moment. public sector as feather-bedded—we do not. 481 Public Sector Pensions8 DECEMBER 2011 Public Sector Pensions 482

[Mr David Jones] The hon. Member for Arfon and others asked what negotiations were taking place. It is important to put it The fact of the matter, as one hon. Member mentioned on the record that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of some time ago, is that this time bomb has been ticking State for Health has met the NHS unions today, and my for a very long time indeed. The previous Government right hon. Friend the Minister for the Cabinet Office is sought to address it but did so only partially. This also meeting the civil service unions later today.Negotiations Government are taking the difficult decisions that will are indeed proceeding apace, and to suggest that they be needed to put public sector pensions on a sustainable are not—as the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington footing for the years to come. (John McDonnell) did—is wrong. The hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams), who The hon. Member for Angus (Mr Weir) claimed that opened the debate, suggested that it was positively 27% of workers will leave public sector pension schemes Government policy for public sector workers to work as a result of increased contributions. The Government longer, pay more and get less in return. The fact is that have set out that those earning less than £15,000 will the Government’s proposals are aimed at ensuring that see no contribution increase whatever, and those earning this generation and future generations of public sector less than £21,000 will see a maximum increase of workers receive pensions that properly reward their 1.5 percentage points by 2014-15. efforts after a lifetime’s work. I echo the congratulations offered on the arrival of Nia Griffith: Does the Minister understand that that Jack and Rosie, the grandchildren of the hon. Member £15,000 limit is the full-time equivalent salary? If a for Central Ayrshire (Mr Donohoe), but I should point person works fewer hours and earns only £8,000, but on out that they will benefit from the Government’s proposals. a salary that full-time would come out as £16,000, they As the hon. Gentleman says, at the age of 70 they will will pay increased contributions? require sustainable pensions, and they will thank this Government for taking the necessary decisions to put Mr Jones: Of course, that is indeed the case, as it was pensions on a sustainable footing. under the proposals that the Labour Government put Lord Hutton’s analysis—many hon. Members said forward. The fact of the matter is that it will not be the that they agreed with the general thrust of his report—shows case that 27% will leave pension schemes. In fact, the that there are three drivers for reform, the first and most independent Office— important of which is longevity. The average 60-year-old in this country will live 10 years longer than the average Mr Weir: That is not what I said. I quoted a survey of 60-year-old in the 1970s lived. Over the same period, FBU members which said that 27% may leave that the annual cost of public service pensions has increased scheme. by a third—it reached £32 billion last year. That simply must be addressed. Mr Jones: I can do no better than refer the hon. Gentleman to the Office for Budget Responsibility, The second driver is flexibility, because public sector which indicated that 1% would opt out. pension provision no longer reflects how the modern labour force works and lives. The third driver is fairness, There is no doubt that this debate has raised passions, which is also important. The current schemes, which are and that is understandable, but the Government’s aim is predominantly final salary schemes, mean that lower-paid clear. We will do our best to ensure that public sector public sector workers effectively subsidise the pensions workers will continue to have access to pension schemes of the higher paid. that are guaranteed, index-linked and inflation-proofed. In the current economic climate, there are many other The reforms implemented by the previous Labour workers who would be only too grateful to have a Government have not been sufficient to reverse the similar benefit. Most public sector workers will see no huge increase in the costs of public sector pension reduction in the pension that they receive, and some schemes as a consequence of increased longevity. The indeed will receive larger pension income on retirement position is straightforward: either public service pensions than they would otherwise— are reformed, or our children and grandchildren—Jack and Rosie—will bear the cost of a virtually unsustainable Stewart Hosie claimed to move the closure (Standing financial benefit. Order No 36). Question put forthwith, Mr Bain: The OBR fiscal sustainability report, which That the Question be now was published in July, makes it quite clear that public put. sector pensions are affordable. I refer the Minister to Question agreed to. the chart that illustrates that the public sector pension Main Question accordingly put. share of gross domestic product will fall to 1.6% by 2060. Surely that does not tie up with his last remark. The House divided: Ayes 11, Noes 242. Division No. 410] [4.03 pm Mr Jones: I refer the hon. Gentleman to the comments of Lord Hutton, who pointed out that his commission AYES felt that there was a rationale for short-term cost savings Corbyn, Jeremy Robertson, Angus in recognition of a substantial, unanticipated increase Hopkins, Kelvin Weir, Mr Mike in longevity. In practice, these savings can be realised Hosie, Stewart Whiteford, Dr Eilidh only by increasing member contributions. To suggest Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Williams, Hywel that it is impossible to address this problem in any way Lucas, Caroline Tellers for the Ayes: other than by increasing contributions is frankly fallacious MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Pete Wishart and and deceitful, and the Opposition know that. McDonnell, John Jonathan Edwards 483 Public Sector Pensions8 DECEMBER 2011 Public Sector Pensions 484

NOES Kwarteng, Kwasi Rosindell, Andrew Lancaster, Mark Ruffley, Mr David Adams, Nigel Ellison, Jane Laws, rh Mr David Russell, Bob Afriyie, Adam Ellwood, Mr Tobias Leadsom, Andrea Rutley, David Amess, Mr David Elphicke, Charlie Lee, Jessica Sanders, Mr Adrian Andrew, Stuart Eustice, George Leigh, Mr Edward Sandys, Laura Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Evans, Jonathan Leslie, Charlotte Scott, Mr Lee Bacon, Mr Richard Fallon, Michael Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Sharma, Alok Baker, Norman Featherstone, Lynne Lewis, Brandon Shelbrooke, Alec Baker, Steve Foster, rh Mr Don Lidington, rh Mr David Skidmore, Chris Baldry, Tony Fox,rhDrLiam Lilley, rh Mr Peter Smith, Miss Chloe Baldwin, Harriett Francois, rh Mr Mark Lopresti, Jack Smith, Henry Barclay, Stephen Freeman, George Lord, Jonathan Smith, Julian Baron, Mr John Freer, Mike Lumley, Karen Soames, rh Nicholas Beith, rh Sir Alan Fullbrook, Lorraine Macleod, Mary Soubry, Anna Benyon, Richard Fuller, Richard Main, Mrs Anne Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Beresford, Sir Paul Gale, Mr Roger Maude, rh Mr Francis Spencer, Mr Mark Berry, Jake Garnier, Mr Edward May, rh Mrs Theresa Stanley, rh Sir John Bingham, Andrew Gauke, Mr David Maynard, Paul Stewart, Bob Blunt, Mr Crispin Gibb, Mr Nick McCartney, Jason Stewart, Iain Boles, Nick Gilbert, Stephen McCartney, Karl Stewart, Rory Bottomley, Sir Peter Glen, John McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Streeter, Mr Gary Bradley, Karen Goldsmith, Zac McPartland, Stephen Stride, Mel Brake, rh Tom Graham, Richard McVey, Esther Stuart, Mr Graham Brazier, Mr Julian Gray, Mr James Menzies, Mark Sturdy, Julian Brine, Steve Grayling, rh Chris Mercer, Patrick Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Brokenshire, James Green, Damian Metcalfe, Stephen Brooke, Annette Greening, rh Justine Swinson, Jo Miller, Maria Bruce, Fiona Gyimah, Mr Sam Syms, Mr Robert Mills, Nigel Buckland, Mr Robert Halfon, Robert Timpson, Mr Edward Morgan, Nicky Burley, Mr Aidan Hames, Duncan Tomlinson, Justin Morris, David Burns, Conor Hancock, Matthew Truss, Elizabeth Morris, James Burns, rh Mr Simon Hands, Greg Turner, Mr Andrew Mowat, David Burstow, Paul Harper, Mr Mark Tyrie, Mr Andrew Mundell, rh David Burt, Lorely Harris, Rebecca Vaizey, Mr Edward Murrison, Dr Andrew Byles, Dan Hart, Simon Vara, Mr Shailesh Neill, Robert Cable, rh Vince Harvey, Nick Vickers, Martin Newmark, Mr Brooks Cairns, Alun Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Walker, Mr Charles Norman, Jesse Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Heald, Oliver Walker, Mr Robin Offord, Mr Matthew Carmichael, Neil Heaton-Harris, Chris Ollerenshaw, Eric Watkinson, Angela Cash, Mr William Hemming, John Opperman, Guy Weatherley, Mike Chishti, Rehman Henderson, Gordon Ottaway, Richard Webb, Steve Chope, Mr Christopher Herbert, rh Nick Patel, Priti Wharton, James Clappison, Mr James Hinds, Damian Pawsey, Mark Wheeler, Heather Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hoban, Mr Mark Penning, Mike Wiggin, Bill Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hollingbery, George Penrose, John Willetts, rh Mr David Collins, Damian Hollobone, Mr Philip Percy, Andrew Williams, Mr Mark Colvile, Oliver Holloway, Mr Adam Phillips, Stephen Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hopkins, Kris Williams, Roger Pincher, Christopher Crabb, Stephen Horwood, Martin Williams, Stephen Poulter, Dr Daniel Crockart, Mike Howell, John Williamson, Gavin Prisk, Mr Mark Crouch, Tracey Hughes, rh Simon Willott, Jenny Raab, Mr Dominic Davey, Mr Edward Huppert, Dr Julian Wilson, Mr Rob Randall, rh Mr John Davies, David T. C. Hurd, Mr Nick Wollaston, Dr Sarah Reckless, Mark (Monmouth) Jackson, Mr Stewart Wright, Jeremy Rees-Mogg, Jacob Davies, Glyn James, Margot Yeo, Mr Tim Reevell, Simon Davies, Philip Javid, Sajid Young, rh Sir George Reid, Mr Alan de Bois, Nick Jenkin, Mr Bernard Zahawi, Nadhim Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Johnson, Joseph Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Jones, Andrew Tellers for the Noes: Robertson, Mr Laurence Doyle-Price, Jackie Jones, Mr David Norman Lamb and Rogerson, Dan Duddridge, James Jones, Mr Marcus Mr Robert Goodwill Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Kawczynski, Daniel Dunne, Mr Philip Kirby, Simon Question accordingly negatived. Ellis, Michael Knight, rh Mr Greg 485 8 DECEMBER 2011 Local Government Ombudsman 486 (Amendment) Bill (Money) Local Government Ombudsman additional burdens and costs on local authorities. It (Amendment) Bill (Money) seems odd, to say the least, to find that the Government support a Bill that will definitely place additional Queen’s recommendation signified. responsibilities and costs on local authorities. I also believe that, in this age of localism, the Government are 4.16 pm displaying some extraordinarily centralising tendencies, on which the Minister may or may not wish to comment. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Robert Neill): I Robert Neill: At risk of prolonging proceedings, may beg to move, I say that the hon. Lady will understand that the That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Local Government can support the Bill because of the Government Ombudsman (Amendment) Bill, it is expedient to amendments, which effectively mean that a local authority authorise the payment out of money provided by Parliament of will be obliged in stating its reasons to put in writing the any increase attributable to the Act in the sums payable under any other Act out of money so provided. product of a process that it must have gone through in any event? We are simply asking authorities to record Going back to yesterday’s debate, I appear to be the and set out what they will already be doing as a matter “accredited person” to move today’s motion. I see that of good governance, so the costs and burdens are rather my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset negligible. (Jacob Rees-Mogg) is not in his place today, but this is a private Member’s Bill moved by my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope), so this is a Roberta Blackman-Woods: Well, that remains to be unique debate. seen. I do not think it is a good idea to legislate on the basis of chance and hope. We are debating the motion because the Government are keen that the Bill in its amended state should move It is important, however, that the Bill proceeds to be forward. The passing of a money resolution is an important debated properly in Committee. There are an enormous step in that process. The costs to local authorities of number of health and safety issues, and Opposition implementing the new duties in the Bill—to give written Members are concerned to ensure that citizens are notification of decisions and to review the decisions—are adequately protected. We are also concerned to ensure seen as a new head of expenditure to be met out of the that extra burdens are not placed on local authorities, grants that local authorities already receive from central especially at a time when they are the subject of such Government. Similarly, any increase in the administrative stringent cuts from central Government. We think that costs of the local ombudsman service associated with is a most unfair approach. the Bill will be seen as a new head of expenditure to be We will not oppose the motion. We want the Bill to met from the grant that the ombudsman receives from go into Committee for thorough discussion, but I must central Government to fund the organisation. The motion make it clear that that does not mean that we support refers to payments under other Acts being increased as its provisions in any way. a result of the Bill, because, technically, a new head of expenditure is a notional increase for the purposes 4.22 pm of Commons financial procedure, even though it might not, in fact, give rise to an increase in expenditure. Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): I am Against that background, I pay tribute to my hon. sorry that this debate is limited to 45 minutes, but I am Friend the Member for Christchurch for his work on delighted that the Government have moved this motion the Bill. I thank him for working so constructively on and that they support the Bill. The Minister might have the proposed amendments, which mean that I can confirm confused someone following our proceedings when he the Government’s intention to support it in its amended said that the amendments made the Bill acceptable to state. The Bill was last debated on 18 March. At that the Government. My hon. Friend is jumping the gun, stage, the Government were unable to support it. However, because the Bill before us is as printed; it has not yet it received its Second Reading and the amendments been the subject of any amendments. It will be for the made since make it acceptable to the Government. Committee to decide whether the Bill should be amended. In due course, if it goes through Committee and comes We think that the Bill will perform a valuable function. back here on Report, it will be for the House to decide It is right that if a local authority decides to stop or whether the Bill is in a form it can accept. impose restrictions of the kind referred to, the reasons should be set out in writing. There should also be an It is unfortunate that there has been such a significant appeals mechanism if the decision is a negative one. The delay between Second Reading on 18 March—consideration fast-tracking procedure is helpful. We think that the was not completed on that date, but the Bill received a costs associated with the Bill are, in fact, negligible. Second Reading in June—and the subsequent period, during which we have been waiting for the money resolution. Without a money resolution, a Standing 4.19 pm Committee cannot consider a private Member’s Bill Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab): I that requires such a resolution or even to get the issue do not want to detain the House unduly. We do not before the Committee of Selection. A Committee to wish to vote against the motion, although I should say look at the Bill cannot be set up unless the Government that the Bill is being proposed at rather an interesting deign to introduce a money resolution. time. Both Houses of Parliament spent an enormous It used to be the custom and practice that a money amount of time debating the Localism Bill, to which resolution for a private Member’s Bill that had been many amendments were tabled but were rejected by the given a Second Reading would, as night follows day, be Government on the grounds that they would impose introduced by the Government within a short period 487 Local Government Ombudsman 8 DECEMBER 2011 Local Government Ombudsman 488 (Amendment) Bill (Money) (Amendment) Bill (Money) thereafter, enabling the House to proceed with the Bill ombudsman had been halted because the Government by setting up a Committee for its detailed consideration. were reconsidering the nature and focus of the post in What is happening now, however, and has been happening the light of last July’s public services White Paper. throughout this long first Session of the current Parliament, We have all experienced appointment procedures in is that the Government are using their power in relation which the candidate was not deemed suitable, there was to money resolutions effectively to curtail the private disagreement about the candidate, or we reviewed what Member’s Bill process. There have been times when not the candidate should be doing in the light of the a single private Member’s Bill has been in Committee, appointment process itself. That appears to be the case because the Government have been using the money in this instance, but the difficulty is that the interviews resolution procedure as, in effect, a veto. for the post were held in February. The Select Committee As you know, Mr Deputy Speaker, I am inherently on Communities and Local Government was due to supportive of my hon. Friend the Minister, and I do not hold hearings to ratify the appointment, but it was only want anything I am saying to be interpreted as being in November that the Government decided to terminate particularly critical of the Government. If they are the process. That is nine months of dealing completely indeed enthusiastic about the Bill, however, it is a pity inadequately with an appointment to an extremely that it will go into Committee, at best, shortly before the important position. very last private Member’s day. It seems as though the Government are able to have the best of both worlds. Mr Chope: The hon. Gentleman’s criticism of the They are able to say that they support the Bill, but by Government rather mirrors mine of the delay in tabling delaying the money resolution—although I accept that the money resolution. In the light of his concern and we are discussing it now—they are delaying its progress interest, would he be willing to serve on the Public Bill and implementation. Committee to look at the measure in more detail? Today is something of a red letter day. This is my first private Member’s Bill that has secured a Second Reading, Mr Betts: I will come on to my concerns about the it is the first that will be given a money resolution—I am Bill in a second. anticipating the House’s decision—and it will, I hope, be able to go into Committee. I am grateful to all my Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. We are colleagues who have supported it. I am also encouraged not here to discuss the Bill. We are just discussing the by the fact that the Minister does not think that it will money resolution, which is rather narrow. cost anything. He said in his speech that the motion was technical, and would not result in significant additional Mr Betts: Yes. I made my point about the ombudsman, public expenditure. The whole purpose of the Bill is to because there are concerns about the delay to the service reduce the burden of public expenditure and regulation itself. Candidates have been waiting for nine months, on ordinary members of the public, and I should have and that is not an acceptable way of proceeding—I been concerned if the resolution had been required in wanted to put that on the record. order to increase it significantly. I take the point made I understand your strictures, Mr Deputy Speaker, by the hon. Member for City of Durham (Roberta about the money resolution and not discussing the Bill. Blackman-Woods) in that regard. However, I return to what the Minister said about not I am delighted that we have at last been given the envisaging the measure costing anything to local authorities. chance to adopt a money resolution, and I hope that There is potential for costs and the spending of extra the motion will be carried without the need for a money precisely because of the way in which the Bill is Division. I look forward to working with Members in drafted and how it deals with the extension of powers all parts of the House in due course to establish whether relating to health and safety. It creates a relationship the Bill can be improved in Committee in a way that will between the ombudsman and the local authority that is satisfy my hon. Friend the Minister, but he must not different from the relationship in any other matter that anticipate matters and assume that it has already been an ombudsman considers. On any other matter, the amended, because it certainly has not been. ombudsman can produce a report that an authority is bound to consider and tell the ombudsman what action 4.28 pm it will take, but in this instance there is no requirement for the authority to act in line with the ombudsman’s Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab): It is recommendations. rather an unusual experience to hear the hon. Member As drafted, the Bill includes a clear right of redress for Christchurch (Mr Chope) support a private Member’s for the ombudsman against local authorities, including Bill in the Chamber. He generally has another function the ability to compel them to pay compensation to in life: to prevent new rules and regulation contained in event organisers for events that are unreasonably banned private Members’ Bills from being inflicted on people. or restricted. That is where money comes in. The power I want to raise two issues. First, discussing a money that is granted in respect of that issue is different from resolution relating to a Bill giving new powers to a the power in other issues with which the ombudsman person who does not currently exist is a slightly strange deals. The power to spend the money does not rest with experience. I understand that there is no local government the local authority—it effectively rests with the ombudsman at present, which is a matter of concern to ombudsman—so we are almost giving a blank cheque me. The other day I received a letter from the permanent or an undetermined ability for the ombudsman to decide secretary at the Department for Communities and Local in any case how much the local authority should pay in Government, Sir Bob Kerslake—in response to a letter compensation, with the cost to local council tax payers I sent to the Secretary of State—which provided the determined by an unelected official, rather than elected helpful explanation that the process for appointing an councillors. 489 Local Government Ombudsman 8 DECEMBER 2011 490 (Amendment) Bill (Money) [Mr Betts] Low Dose Naltrexone That is a fundamental issue of public expenditure Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House that the Bill, as drafted, opens up. The Minister may do now adjourn.—(Angela Watkinson.) discuss amendments, but the promoter has said that the Bill has not been amended yet. As drafted, that is precisely what it would do, and I have serious concerns 4.38 pm about it. The Minister cannot say that under the Bill as Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): First, I want to make it drafted there are no spending commitments, but he can clear that this debate is not about fighting for a very say that there are potential spending commitments, new and expensive drug. Campaigns about drugs are which will be determined by unelected people. The often brought to the attention of Parliament because a counter-argument might be that, as the measure applies patient is fighting to be allowed to have a new and only to events that have been unreasonably banned expensive treatment on the NHS. Some of these new there is a right for judicial review—in which case, why drugs are not just expensive because they are new; do we need the Bill? However, there is the potential for because of the complex processes required to make money to be spent. them, they will, in fact, often continue to be expensive to produce. Such situations raise dilemmas for decision Mr Chope: The hon. Gentleman will be reassured to makers as to how access to such drugs can be funded. learn that the amendments I have in mind will address his concerns about costs, and I hope that that is a This debate is about a very different problem: making consolation for him. an existing drug that is modestly priced available for the treatment of a wider range of conditions. Clinical trials Mr Betts: I am more than happy to accept the hon. are needed to get full approval for the drug under Gentleman’s assurance—perhaps that is what the Minister discussion, but I ask the Minister to consider whether was alluding to. However, it is rather difficult to debate there is any possible way in which it could be made the Bill as drafted when there are amendments of which more widely available. we are not aware that would alter its capacity to incur Sometimes patients are faced with unacceptable options public expenditure. That is what we are addressing and, for treatment and find themselves researching possible on that point, I shall conclude. new treatments. That is usually a road that leads to disappointment, but occasionally something useful is 4.34 pm stumbled upon, such as low dose naltrexone, or LDN. Robert Neill: I thank the Members who have contributed The problem is that it is what is called an “orphan to the debate, and I wish to set their minds at rest. drug”, which means its patent has expired, so if someone does research on it, a generic manufacturer can subsequently I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for steal the business. Christchurch (Mr Chope) for his comments. I am sure he agrees that he and officials from my Department I understand that naltrexone is proved safe in its have had a chance to hold constructive discussions in normal mode of use, and now has a clinical history of the time that has elapsed since the Bill was last before 11 years of use in the UK with no problems reported the House, and that he will therefore be able to propose and only minor side effects. LDN is also very low cost, amendments to which the Government will be happy to and can be used to treat many conditions that are both lend their support. chronic and often very expensive to treat with more conventional remedies. Sometimes those more conventional I also think the concerns of the hon. Member for remedies have severe side effects, which then have to be Sheffield South East (Mr Betts) about costs will be treated with more expensive drugs. allayed. Although I am always loth to correct the hon. Gentleman, who is Chair of the Communities and The purpose of this debate is to ask how a drug such Local Government Committee, he will appreciate that as LDN could be made available to patients who ask for the functions of the local government ombudsman, as it. The most desirable route would be via clinical trials we call that post, are legally carried out by the Commission leading to marketing authorisation and then official for Local Administration in England, and while the acceptance from the National Institute for Health and post of chair of that commission is vacant, two Clinical Excellence and the NHS. A much cheaper and commissioners are still in place, Dr Jane Martin and more immediately practical route is to recognise that Ms Anne Seex, and Dr Martin is the acting chair of the LDN is a safe choice for patients without many of the commission so there is, effectively, a local government risks of drugs currently in use. Doctors could therefore ombudsman in place and able to fulfil those functions. be given official advice not to deny it to patients who Question put and agreed to. want it or wish to acquire it from pharmacists who make it as a “special” at a fair price. There could also be a mechanism for protecting doctors and allowing patients choice. At present, doctors are in a difficult position. If they prescribe anything that is not on an official list, they leave themselves open to criticism, as well as to being sued and possibly losing their right to practise. The third route is to get it listed as an over-the-counter drug, such as aspirin or paracetamol. I understand that it is considered safer than paracetamol which is sold over the counter, so this might be a reasonable option that would make prescription very easy. 491 Low Dose Naltrexone8 DECEMBER 2011 Low Dose Naltrexone 492

Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD): We live in an age where information, including real I congratulate the hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) scientific papers and trials reports, is easily available. on securing this debate. I am sure that, like me, she has a Patients who are really determined to make the most of number of constituents who are benefiting from this their lives, despite terrible illnesses, and who have the drug—I refer particularly to members of the Purbeck wherewithal to look into the research do seek out and Wareham multiple sclerosis group. It is so frustrating information and solutions. We have been using LDN in that they cannot get hold of something, through the the UK for some 11 years. Naltrexone has been trialled NHS or in some form that is easily accessible, given that at high doses to treat heroin addiction and is known to it is definitely making a difference to their lives. I am be safe, so the only real thing missing is the marketing sure that she would agree that there is a fear that authorisation from the Medicines and Healthcare products perhaps they will not be able to get it one day. What do Regulatory Agency—MHRA—for a formulation of low- they do then? dose naltrexone, perhaps in liquid or capsule form. A trial would add proof—or not—of its efficacy. Nia Griffith: The hon. Lady is quite right. These The cost of a trial is probably considerably lower people fear that if they change from one GP to another, than the cost of a high-tech drug, because the drug or if people are less sympathetic towards this drug— itself is so cheap. Estimates suggest that a single trial obviously this is something that people have to be can be done with some £7 million, but that is just an convinced about—they may well not be able to get hold estimate based on £1,000 per patient a year for the of it. Unless there is some form of authorisation and monitoring specialists, plus up to £3,000 a year per some form of making it an official drug that is more patient for LDN. There would be the costs of recruiting widely available, they do run the risk that she describes. 500 to 800 patients and then something to cover the The problem is that many patients feel let down analysis of the results. because what they see as perfectly good therapies, which There are no systems available, however, for patients are cheap but out of patent, are being withheld when to translate their choice of therapy into a legitimate patients want them. When doctors cannot refute a request, even when they vote with their feet in large patient’s choice, they can still deny it to them, because numbers. Doctors do not see any danger in the choice clearly the issue of their professional conduct is involved. except that they worry they might be denying people a If the NHS recommends another treatment, quite possibly more effective option, but, as patients have pointed out, one that costs thousands and has drug company support, if they need what is perceived to be a more effective it is often difficult to get the research done to prove the option, they can take it alongside LDN anyhow. validity of a drug such as LDN. My constituent Andrew Barnett, who is highly intelligent, Some 5,000 people in the UK with multiple sclerosis scientifically minded and analytical, has made the use LDN, and a few thousand more use it for other assessment that LDN seems to have stopped his disease conditions, such as Crohn’s disease, cancers, fibromyalgia, developing further. The constituents of the hon. Member autism and so on. Their GPs usually prefer not to sign for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette Brooke) have NHS prescriptions for LDN—indeed, they may refuse confirmed the same belief. My constituent regrets very to do so—but there are instances of GPs then charging much that he did not start using it earlier. If he had patients for private prescriptions, explaining that they done so, perhaps some five years ago, he feels that he are worried that NHS prescribing guidelines would would still be working and contributing actively to the prohibit them from prescribing LDN and so they would economy. end up in serious trouble if they did so. One GP in Doctors do have to say no to treatment choices for Glasgow who prescribes a lot of LDN was reported to the sake of the patient, but when they have no reasons the General Medical Council for doing so recently. My to deny an option, as is the case with LDN, that should constituent Andrew Barnett has told me that his GP not happen. We should try to ensure that we enable has said that his lawyers advised against it, so he writes them to prescribe LDN. Doctors all tell us that without my constituent a private prescription and charges him the trial, they do not have the confidence to prescribe, £8.50 a quarter for doing so. My constituent then also so patients face the potential loss of supply of prescriptions has to pay for the LDN itself, at a cost of £17.50 a if they change doctor, quite apart from the cost of month. private prescriptions, which is hurtful for many patients Some 100,000 people in the UK have MS, only 12% of who have been reduced to living on income support by whom use drugs offered by the NHS. Some of the drugs sickness or disability. available are risky and very expensive, and there are So, the substance of the debate is about patient questions about how effective they are. Yet some 5% of access to therapies that cannot get the trials they need MS sufferers choose to use LDN, because they feel that for reasons such as not being patentable or the lack of it helps them and does not have the risks of some other profit in the therapy, especially when the therapy is treatments. LDN has proved to be safe in trials at very known to be safe. LDN seems to be the most prominent, high doses, but it is unpromoted and hard to get. in that there are no sensible arguments to deny it to Because there are now people making this choice, there patients who want it and those patients report great must be a way to get this treatment legitimised on the satisfaction with it in most cases. It is frankly a disgrace NHS for patients who ask for it. However, we are told that such options are denied to informed patients who that without substantial trials that is not possible. It is ask for them on the NHS. It would save the NHS so very difficult to find a way to fund any such trials much money to allow this. LDN can be supplied for as because the drug itself is already licensed and therefore little as £17.50 a month, compared with some other drug companies would not be able to recoup the cost of expensive drugs, such as £60,000 for Copaxone, £15,000 funding the research by marketing the drug; there would for Avonex or £90,000 a year for another drug that was be no money in it for them. recently in the news. 493 Low Dose Naltrexone8 DECEMBER 2011 Low Dose Naltrexone 494

[Nia Griffith] well aware of the interest in the subject from those who feel that LDN is a suitable treatment for a number of The question is how we can get the trials and get conditions, including multiple sclerosis, HIV and various people interested. Academics often rely on backing cancers. I am grateful to her for the opportunity to from pharmaceutical companies to put together their clarify the Government’s position. plans and proposals for a research project. It is very I will begin by talking about the process for licensing difficult to find academics who want to spend that time drugs in general. An unlicensed medicine is not necessarily and energy if they do not know that they will get the illegal in the way an unlicensed driver is; it just means backing. They could put in a lot of work without that the regulator has not yet been given the evidence it getting any funding for any proposal. requires to support a routine place in the market. The We must face up to the problem of what systems we Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency have in place to provide licensing for drugs such as is responsible for the regulation of medicines used in the LDN. One doctor I have talked to, Dr Lawrence from UK, which includes authorising applications for clinical Swansea, tells me that LDN not only seems to have trials and granting licences for medicines. MHRA gives acceptable uses for people with multiple sclerosis but, licences for medicines only after evidence has been he feels, has enormous potential for the treatment of submitted to demonstrate the quality, safety and efficacy cancer. That would be a very worthwhile investigation, of the product for the conditions it is intended to treat. considering that we spend so much on looking for That system, whereby licences follow evidence, protects answers and on treating the various cancer diseases. patients and means that there is always a robust, systematic Sanctioning the use of LDN would also allow doctors and independent assessment of the safety and suitability to collect clinical data that could be used to monitor of licensed medicines. and help prove the effectiveness of the drug. In the UK, naltrexone is currently only fully licensed Naltrexone is already an approved drug at higher in 50 mg tablet form. That dosage is used to help doses and research and clinical trials have already shown patients remain free from dependence on heroin, methadone its effectiveness at low doses to treat auto-immune and similar opiates and to help those who are dependent diseases. Patients have difficulty in getting their GPs to on alcohol, but the drug is not currently licensed at any write prescriptions and have to get the treatment privately, dose for the treatment of the other conditions that the but it would be preferable for patients to work with hon. Lady rightly mentioned, because the evidence their GPs so that their GPs can monitor them. GPs have necessary for a licence does not currently exist. However, had to seek legal advice to find out whether they should naltrexone is being prescribed by some doctors in doses be prescribing it and lawyers have advised against it, of up to 7 mg on an individual patient basis. This is putting them in a very difficult position. referred to as low-dose naltrexone. Among the supporters of LDN are GPs, neurologists The reason MHRA has not looked into licensing and oncologists who have seen patients’ diseases not get LDN is that it has not received any application or worse and there are cases where such specialists have evidence to support it, which means LDN is currently supported its use for the patient and stated that in a unlicensed. That does not mean that it is necessarily written letter to the GP. Even then, the GP has felt unsafe; it is just that a licence for its use in this country unable to prescribe the drug for fear of being unprofessional. does not exist. The current position is that when a patient needs a medicine an appropriate licensed product Campaigners have worked with local health boards should be used. If it is not available, doctors can prescribe and PCTs to try to determine what knowledge there is a different licensed medicine if they think that it will do about LDN and whether GP practices have heard of it the job. If neither of those options is available, an or are using it. The responses came back negative. What unlicensed medicine may be considered. LDN currently can we do so that LDN is offered in addition to other falls into that last bracket. As it involves a significantly drugs currently prescribed on the NHS? This is about lower dose than the licensed form of naltrexone, and as patient choice. It would be nice to be able to make LDN it is untested, it is regarded as an unlicensed medicine. available to patients on a much wider basis, but it is important that patients are monitored by their GPs Legislation supports clinicians when they want to when using any medication, so we do not simply want a prescribe an unlicensed medicine that they think is free-for-all. We want the proper medical trials, proof necessary to meet a patient’s particular needs. The and backing that is needed to show whether it is an MHRA checks that the medicine is being manufactured effective drug, which will enable it to be made more to the right standards, in a safe environment and with widely available, but there is a real difficulty, despite the suitable materials. Any unlicensed product manufactured fact that the orphan drug could be a cheap option for in the UK must be manufactured to the specification of the NHS, in funding the sort of research needed to trial the doctor, nurse, dentist or whichever professional it. I return to my initial request and ask the Minister prescribed it in the first place. The important point is whether there is any way he can make LDN more that the use of an unlicensed medicine is the direct widely and easily available to patients. personal responsibility of the professional who prescribed it. They are aware that it is unlicensed, and they prescribe it with that knowledge. The position is reflected in 4.50 pm professional guidance, including that of the General The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon Medical Council. Burns): I begin by congratulating the hon. Member for Given that a licensed LDN product is not available in Llanelli (Nia Griffith) on securing the debate and hope the UK, it can be supplied only as an unlicensed product that by the end of my comments, particularly the last either manufactured in the UK or imported from section, she will feel that there is a mechanism and a somewhere else. Most of the LDN used in this country way forward that she will find helpful. Like her, I am is manufactured in the UK, but anyone who wants to 495 Low Dose Naltrexone8 DECEMBER 2011 Low Dose Naltrexone 496 import it must be authorised by the MHRA. In the UK, The regulations apply to any person and are not specific manufacturers produce a number of formulations, including to the pharmaceutical industry. This prohibition does LDN capsules, at strengths ranging from 1 mg to 6.5 mg, not prevent independent patient charities from providing and these are produced under a “specials” licence. balanced and factual information about treatment options, The importation of any medicinal product not licensed including any that are not licensed. The MHRA has in the UK must be in compliance with the Medicines for published guidance on its website. The MHRA would Human Use (Manufacturing, Wholesale Dealing and investigate any complaint about a breach of the legislation, Miscellaneous Amendments) Regulations 2005, which but has not received any complaint about the advertising provides for the import of products when a special of low-dose naltrexone. Whether a charity or another clinical need exists for individual patients and when the third party was promoting a medicine or providing regulatory authority has not objected to the import. non-promotional information would be decided on the Objections may be made on grounds of known safety facts of any specific case. or quality issues, or if an equivalent UK licensed product The hon. Lady will no doubt appreciate that it is in is available. In the case of LDN, there is no ban on the everyone’s interest to see a booming medical research import of products of acceptable quality and safety, industry in the UK that is successful, is meeting its and I hope that those comments go some way to reassuring requirements, and is pushing forward our development the hon. Lady on her point about the fears of some GPs and use of advanced medicines to help to bring relief to who had been or were not prescribing the drug. those suffering acute illnesses or long-term conditions When medicines are unlicensed, such as LDN, the and to help them to manage those conditions better. National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence does not generally assess them, so it has not issued any Annette Brooke: The Minister is being very clear in guidance on the use of LDN in the NHS. When NICE his exposition. The question that my constituents continually guidance on a particular drug for a particular condition ask is why the NHS is not in the least bit interested in a does not exist, it is for local primary care trusts in treatment that is so cheap, costing about 50p a day, and England to make funding decisions based on their own appears to defer care costs into the bargain. A constituent assessment of the available evidence. On behalf of their of mine has been with their consultant to see the patients, doctors can, through an individual funding prescribing committee of the local PCT, but we still do request, request treatments that are not usually funded, not have this drug on NHS prescription. if they feel that there are exceptional clinical circumstances. In this situation, a special panel that includes clinicians Mr Burns: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for raising would carefully consider individual cases. They would that point on behalf of her constituents. The short use the latest available evidence and make a decision on answer is that it is simply because there have been no the basis of a patient’s individual circumstances, but we clinical trials to assess the drug in its low-dosage levels, recognise that there is demand from the NHS and from and so the conditions of the NHS, under the ways in patients for better access to information about drug which we operate in the provision of drugs for patients, treatments, particularly when no licensed product is have not been fulfilled at this stage. If she will wait for a available, so we are keen to explore whether more can be minute or two, I will get to the nub of the point made by done to support clinicians, NHS commissioners and the hon. Member for Llanelli about how we could move patients in their own decision-making by giving them forward to seek to address that situation. I hope that the easier access to the best available information. That is hon. Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette why the Department of Health asked NICE to provide Brooke) will find the way forward helpful and positive. a service to support the NHS in deciding whether an The hon. Member for Llanelli will no doubt appreciate unlicensed drug can be used to address an unmet need. that it is in everyone’s interest to see a booming medical Under our plans, NICE will commission expert assessments research industry in the UK, because that leads to real of the evidence that supports—or does not support—the improvements in the lives of patients, their families and use of unlicensed medicines, including in rarer conditions. carers, and we are determined to support it. We That will help clinicians make decisions about effective demonstrated our commitment to health research by treatments and address one of the access problems that increasing spending in real terms up until 2015. In patients face. As I said earlier, it is important that we August, my right hon. Friends the Prime Minister and preserve the integrity of the medicines licensing scheme, the Secretary of State for Health announced a record which is so vital to protecting patients. Any information £800 million, five-year investment in a series of biomedical provided will be designed to inform doctors’ decision research centres and units, which will translate fundamental making and patients’ choices, not to provide a simple biomedical research into clinical research that benefits yes or no recommendation. patients and the NHS. The Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory The coalition Government are committed to the Agency is responsible for the enforcement of the advertising promotion and conduct of research as a core function regulations—another important area with regard to of the health service. The Health and Social Care Bill, this subject. There are also self-regulatory controls operated which is now passing through another place, will turn by the industry body—the Prescription Medicines Code this into reality by placing appropriate powers and of Practice Authority—and general controls on advertising duties on my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State operated by the Advertising Standards Authority. for Health, NHS organisations, Monitor, and local Regulations state that authorities. We will make sure that the systems and “no person shall issue an advertisement relating to a relevant processes for commissioning by the NHS Commissioning medicinal product which is a medicinal product in respect of Board and by clinical commissioning groups promote, which no marketing authorisation or traditional herbal registration support and fund clinical research. The Government is in force”. will consult on amending the NHS constitution in order 497 Low Dose Naltrexone8 DECEMBER 2011 Low Dose Naltrexone 498

[Mr Simon Burns] through inspection, that the highest possible standards are maintained. However, the MHRA does not initiate to support patients to have access to novel treatments clinical trials. A clinical trial needs a sponsor. Sponsors and to be part of the development of wider patient have usually come from industry, the NHS or academia. benefits, so that there is a default assumption, with an The hon. Lady is seeking Government funding for a ability to opt out; that data collected as part of NHS clinical trial to prove the efficacy and safety of LDN. I care can be used for approved research, with appropriate can tell her that funding is available and that university- protection for patient confidentiality; and that patients based researchers can apply for it. are content to be approached about research studies for The efficacy and mechanism evaluation programme which they may be eligible to enable them to decide is funded by the Medical Research Council and managed whether they want a discussion about consenting to be by the NIHR. It funds evaluation of the clinical efficacy involved in a research study. of treatments. If evidence from such evaluations is The clinical practice research datalink will be introduced promising, larger scale trials can follow. That is one of by the MHRA in partnership with the National Institute the purposes for which the NIHR funds the health for Health Research, building on the NIHR’s research technology assessment programme. That programme capability programme. This £60 million investment will produces evidence on the effectiveness, cost and broader offer data services, including providing access to data impact of treatments and other types of health care for researchers, data matching and linkage services, intervention. In the case of LDN, as with all other novel and data validation, to support the clinical trial and treatments, I cannot prejudge how successful that pathway observational study work of the life sciences research of research might be, but I can tell the hon. Lady that a community. pathway does exist, as I have described. The NIHR will launch an updated UK clinical trials In addition, the hon. Lady expressed concern about gateway in spring 2012. That website will enable patients whether the systems in place make provision for patients and the public to access information about clinical trials to say what research they would like to happen. I can and will be a development of the test site launched in assure her that patients can make a suggestion for the March 2011. To increase the number of patients who efficacy and mechanism evaluation programme to consider. can benefit from being involved in trials via the gateway, Topics prioritised for funding may be advertised, inviting the NIHR has also developed a free smartphone app, researchers to submit proposals for clinical trials in which is available for iPhone users and will shortly be those topical areas. available for Android users. It provides a practical and I am grateful to the hon. Lady for raising this subject innovative way for patients to access information about and giving me the opportunity to explain the background clinical trials. to a matter of considerable interest to many people, not I will now turn to the question of clinical trials that least some of her constituents and those of the hon. the hon. Member for Llanelli raised and that the hon. Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole. I hope the Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole raised, by last part of my speech in particular, in which I have default, in her intervention. I think that this explanation explained an existing avenue that they and others interested may provide the hon. Member for Llanelli with the in LDN may wish to pursue, will be helpful to them. basis for making progress in her quest. Clinical trials are a fundamental part of the drug development process, Nia Griffith: May I take this opportunity to thank as she accepts. Trials and health research more generally the Minister for his very full and helpful reply? are funded by a range of groups in the UK, in particular by the NIHR, the Medical Research Council, medical Mr Burns: And may I, in the spirit of Christmas, research charities and industry. The NIHR welcomes thank the hon. Lady very much for the way in which she high-quality funding applications for research into any presented her case? It was quite clear from listening to aspect of human health, including the use of LDN. her speech that she rightly felt very strongly about the Such applications are subject to peer review and are issue on behalf of not only her constituents but people judged in open competition, with awards being made up and down the country who need LDN and who, at on the basis of the scientific quality of the proposals. As the moment, are having to go through the procedures she has suggested, a new clinical trial will be required to that she described. support a licence for the use of LDN. Question put and agreed to. The MHRA regulates clinical trials on medicines when they are carried out in the UK. That includes 5.10 pm granting approval to conduct a clinical trial and ensuring, House adjourned. 151WH 8 DECEMBER 2011 European Council 152WH

the Prime Minister now says that there should have Westminster Hall been a referendum on the Maastricht treaty, but he has yet to criticise its substance. From today’s perspective, Thursday 8 December 2011 does anyone seriously doubt that John Major should have vetoed monetary union? Maastricht also established the principle of the two-speed EU, with its dangerously [MR ANDREW TURNER in the Chair] comforting opt-outs. Subsequent treaties, not least the Lisbon one, have proved that two-speed, multi-speed, or whatever you want to call it, means only one federalist BACKBENCH BUSINESS direction for the EU, with the UK having less and less influence, since opportunities for veto have been given European Council away more and more. As a result, at this summit the Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting UK is presented with the unenviable dilemmas of the be now adjourned.—(Mr Dunne.) forthcoming decisions. Once again, the UK is reacting to an agenda set by other member states, and Ministers 2.30 pm are left managing what can be described only as a retreat. To cite another of the Prime Minister’s phrases, Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): It is an unexpected pleasure to be opening this “we cannot go on like this.” debate, and also that it is taking place at all. We should, The Prime Minister has made it clear that of course, have a full-day’s debate in the main Chamber “the bottom line for us is always what is in the interest of the in advance of a summit of the importance of the UK”, European Council summit that is about to take place. Under the previous arrangements there would have and I agree, but what is the bottom line? In his article in been such a debate, but the Government somehow do The Times yesterday, the Prime Minister said that he not seem able to provide for one under the new was still committed to forging arrangements. Nevertheless, it is a great honour for me “a new kind of Europe…a more competitive, dynamic and outward- to have been given the responsibility to set out what looking Europe…a Europe that has the flexibility of a network, many of us feel should be addressed at the forthcoming not the rigidity of a bloc. A Europe that looks beyond itself with summit. its eyes to the horizon, and recognises that it must change There is no doubt that this is a momentous moment fundamentally or fall behind. A Europe that cherishes its national identities as a source of strength.” in the history of Europe, and you do not need to take my word for it, Mr Turner. Speaking in Toulon last Well, amen to that. I do not think that a single member Thursday, President Sarkozy of France said Europe of the Conservative party would object to that, or must be “refounded”, and he is talking today about the indeed that a single person in the country could. But we crucial historic moment of this summit. I think he is have heard this before. It is an echo of the previous upping the ante a bit, perhaps unnecessarily, because no Prime Minister’s plea for a “global Europe”. Tony Blair treaty will be signed at the summit. The participants spoke of a Europe that is “democratic”—one thing that will merely be agreeing issues in principle, and there will the eurozone will not be—and John Major spoke of a be long and arduous negotiations about the treaty text Europe that recognises that before anything is signed. In her speech to the Bundestag “the nation state is here to stay”. last Friday, Chancellor Merkel of Germany said: “We have started a new phase of European integration”, These British visions of a different kind of EU have so the idea that nothing much of importance is happening been proffered and offered to various EU summits in Brussels except trying to save the euro is a distortion. down the decades, but they are not on the agenda of our fellow member states, or of the EU Commission and The leaders of France and Germany came together the other EU institutions. They never have been, and on Monday to hammer out their vision, not just of how other member states are not spontaneously going to to save the euro but of the future of Europe. There will come round to our way of thinking. They are not be only one real issue on the agenda in Brussels tomorrow: interested in discussing those visions. the final desperate act of European integration—fiscal union. In other words, the issue will be the formation of The Government say that they might veto the treaty economic government of the 17. According to President changes discussed at the summit, unless the treaty has Sarkozy and Chancellor Merkel in their letter to Herman “the right safeguards for Britain…around things like the importance Van Rompuy, this will of the single market and financial services”. “need a renewed contract between the Euro area Member States”. It is very important that the Prime Minister has put that The coalition agreement never envisaged confronting on the record, but it gives the lie to the idea that it is a major change to the EU treaties in this Parliament. unthinkable for the UK to refuse to accept the EU’s The EU was meant to be off the agenda and, indeed, plans for fiscal union without making demands of our the leadership of the Conservative party deliberately own. We are constantly being harangued by people, downplayed the issue of Europe, both before the election who say that if we are asking questions about the and in the first part of this Parliament. The Government summit we must somehow want to wreck it, but the have, therefore, found themselves ill-prepared for this Prime Minister himself has offered the prospect of a crisis. veto, so they need to make that accusation to him as Official rhetoric on the EU might have moved on a well, and of course that would be ridiculous. I commend bit from the days of John Major, but the substance of the Prime Minister for making it clear that he will stick policy remains remarkably similar. My right hon. Friend up for British interests. 153WH European Council8 DECEMBER 2011 European Council 154WH

[Mr Bernard Jenkin] through the existing treaty arrangements. The article continues: There is no need to delay ratifying treaty changes “His concern is that a fiscally united eurozone will spend as a unless other member states object to the reasonable bloc, tax as a bloc — and, when it comes to European summits, demands that the UK Government should make. Then vote as a bloc.” it will be our European partners holding up the summit, As he is right to go on to say: not the UK. The UK must hold out for the fundamental “It is wholly unacceptable to have a new bloc in which we change in our relationship with the EU that fiscal union would be permanently outvoted… if they want to go ahead and will make indispensable. The Prime Minister reminds us form their new country, we want to get the power to run our what this is really about. It is about competitiveness, country back.” jobs and the growth of our own economy in the short, Secondly, the Government are asking us to believe medium and long term. And, I have to say, I commend that we will have a better opportunity to discuss our the words of the Deputy Prime Minister, who warned fundamental concerns after the new EU treaty changes of the dangers of a huge “club within a club.” have been agreed and ratified, perhaps after another Yes, that is exactly the threat we are now facing. Our two or three years. Does anyone seriously believe that prosperity and competitiveness are already under constant Germany and France would agree to that? What leverage attack from the burden of EU regulation, and the would we have then? Why would they need to listen agency workers directive and the working time directive after we have already signed the new treaties? This is not are typical of the costly and unnecessary regulations only the best opportunity for us to renegotiate our that destroy jobs. It is estimated that these two laws terms of membership; it is likely to be the only one, alone cost the UK economy £3.6 billion per year, and if short of taking unilateral action. we are not prepared to deal with that, we are not dealing with the problem we face. The British Chambers Let us, in passing, dispose of another myth. Unless of Commerce calculate that the cost of additional EU all EU27 member states agree to those changes, there regulation introduced between 1998 and 2010 is a staggering will be no fiscal union. Even a treaty of the 17 member £60.75 billion. A recent Open Europe report entitled states would need the support of all member states, or “Repatriating EU social policy: The best choice for jobs none of the EU institutions could be involved with the and growth?” has estimated that EU social law costs new proposed arrangement. That is why my right hon. UK businesses and the public sector £8.6 billion per year. Friend the Prime Minister was absolutely right when he stated in The Times earlier this week: This afternoon I wish to set out how the Government are asking us to believe two unbelievable things. The “These institutions belong to all EU states”. first is that a move towards fiscal union and even closer We should not allow them to be hijacked by a wholly integration in the eurozone will not fundamentally alter new organisation. the UK’s relationship with the EU, and the second is A treaty change through article 48 of the treaty on that the best time for the UK to negotiate to repatriate European Union—the internal treaty revision procedure— powers will be not now but in a few years’ time, after the would still require ratification by the UK. Any agreement changes in the eurozone have been made and by which falling short of fiscal union that avoids treaty change, time the eurozone crisis will supposedly have been settled. such as altering protocol 12, as proposed by Herman I will then set out what the UK must demand, and is Van Rompuy in his report, “Towards a stronger economic entitled to demand, if fiscal union is to proceed, and Union” would still require the UK’s approval at the finally I will explain why a referendum in the UK on the European Council. There is, therefore, no way we can treaty changes will be desirable, necessary and probably be bypassed if we place our demands on the table. inevitable. Far from it not being the time to renegotiate bringing First, fiscal union in the eurozone will utterly change powers back, this is the moment when we have the most the relationship with the EU, as it will fundamentally leverage. We cannot afford to settle for another limited alter the nature of the EU itself. We will be linked by opt-out, safeguard, or protocol. That would not be the treaty to what will effectively be a new economic state, fundamental change that the Prime Minister and so and we will be like a rowing boat dragged along in the many others say they wish to see. Things would simply slipstream of a supertanker. The EU will be dominated carry on, but under the new arrangements, they would by a bloc of 17 euro countries with shared economic be worse. priorities and structures of government—that huge club within a club. What should the Government do now? A recent Social policy is just one area in which EU policy is report by the TaxPayers Alliance, “Terms of Endearment”, operating contrary to the UK’s national interest. Let us sets out a list of powers that it would be desirable to not forget, too, the direct financial costs of EU membership: repatriate to achieve a satisfactory new relationship. a net contribution of £7.6 billion by the UK this year, a They include business regulation, employment law, fisheries sum similar to the aid budget and equivalent to around and agriculture, and immigration and taxation. a quarter of our defence budget. Let us remember that I also much admire the work being undertaken by the all those pressures on the UK arise from our existing all-party group on European reform and the Fresh terms of membership. That is how the EU institutions Start project, under the leadership of my hon. Friend operate against our interests. If they are doing that now, the Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea what will it be like in future? Leadsom). She is doing a great service for her country. The reality of what is happening in the EU was very That work certainly needs to be done, but as she well set out in The Spectator today by my right hon. acknowledges, it is detailed and complex, and it really Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. He would be unreasonable to embroil the EU machinery in rightly warns that the EU17 is planning to become such a breadth of contentious issues and in such legal “a new and very powerful country which can dominate us” complexity at this time. Attempts at this summit to 155WH European Council8 DECEMBER 2011 European Council 156WH nibble at certain powers are bound to be disappointing, 2.38 pm as opt-outs and protocols have so often been circumvented Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): It is a pleasure by the European Commission and the European Court to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Turner. We are of Justice in the end. all grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich There is an emerging consensus among many Members and North Essex (Mr Jenkin) for the way he has introduced of Parliament and elsewhere that we need a more the debate. I do not intend to weary the Chamber with straightforward solution. Some of us in the Fresh Start his level of forensic detail. He has made the case, and I group agreed a mission statement earlier this year to subscribe entirely to what he said. help guide our work. It said: I want to talk about the broad picture, in historical “UK citizens want co-operation and free commerce with our terms, because I think we lose track of history. We are EU partners, but a majority believes that too much power has on the cusp of a truly momentous moment in our been transferred to the EU without their consent; in areas ranging from policing to employment law, from Health and safety to country, which could reorder our entire relationship immigration, our citizens want control over their own destiny. with history. I regret that economics is now considered The euro-zone crisis has created an opportunity for a new relationship to be the only science that politicians of note should with our EU partners, in which the UK can take more decisions understand, because history is just as important. The and Brussels fewer; this would be in line with the basic principle fact is that for 300 years this country had one historical that the authority to pass laws should be democratically accountable imperative, and that historical imperative is born of the to those who are affected by them”. fact that we are a maritime and a trading nation. We That is relatively uncontentious; I do not see how have strained every sinew and have fought momentous anyone can object to that manifesto. wars to ensure that there is no conglomeration of power At this summit, or later, in the light of what we will on the continent that could either exclude us from learn about the detail of Germany’s intention for the continental markets or have an effect on our trade, euro 17, the UK should seek agreement in principle that particularly our maritime trade. the UK Parliament, and not the EU institutions, decide It is a shame that, in our schools—I know quite a lot what laws apply in our own country, and how they about education, because I follow what my children are should be interpreted and enforced. That would, in learning—little knowledge is bred into our children effect, be the UK nationalisation of the EU acquis about our own history. There is far too much emphasis communautaire. There would be no instant annulment on 20th century history and Hitler and Stalin, but our of EU directives or regulations. It would be a matter for history is far longer than that. Virtually everything that renegotiation with the EU on a case-by-case basis over we have undertaken for these 400 years has been to time, and the same would apply to new proposals such ensure that we retain our independence as a trading and as the ludicrous financial transactions tax. That would maritime nation. In the 16th century, we were prepared enable us to establish a new relationship with our EU to go to war against Spain because they were affecting partners on a fundamentally different basis, while remaining our trade. We also did so in the 17th century with the in the customs union, which is the founding element of Dutch; in the 18th and early 19th centuries with the the single market. French; and in the 20th century with the Germans. All The Prime Minister can say, perfectly reasonably, along, I believe that, although we have stood on great that he has done his best to co-operate with our EU principles—that is certainly true of 1914 and 1939—our partners in the crisis but that he must take Parliament prime motivation has been to retain our independence. and the British people with him. He can say that fiscal Whatweareseeingnowisatrulyfrighteningconglomeration union is too big a change in our relationship to countenance of power on the continent. If the German Chancellor without a referendum in the UK, but that he should and the French President succeed in creating fiscal and offer to put this new relationship to the British people, monetary union tomorrow, we will voluntarily exclude and on that basis he would campaign for a “yes” vote. ourselves. Do not think for a moment that this conglomeration I would vote for that and I would campaign for a “yes” of power would not have a decisive and dramatic effect vote, so we can stay in the EU on that new basis. There on us. The United Kingdom accounts for 36% of the is absolutely no reason why that proposal should delay European Union’s wholesale finance industry and a this summit. If the other states wanted to do so, it 61% share of the EU’s net exports of international would be up to them, as I have said. That would allow transactions in financial services. However, under new Westminster politicians to fulfil the promises that we voting rules that will come into force in 2014, it will have made so often and broken, to give the people the possess only 12% of the votes in the Council of Ministers, right to decide the destiny of our nation. and 10% of the votes in the European Parliament. In As the Prime Minister has said: contrast, France accounts for 20% of the EU’s market in “It is wrong that we did not have a referendum on Maastricht, agriculture, but enjoys a veto over the EU’s long-term Lisbon and those other treaties.”—[Official Report, 24 October budget and therefore retains substantial control over the 2011; Vol. 534, c. 33.] sizeable EU subsidies received by its farmers. An express The changes being proposed in this treaty are Maastricht- train is coming in the direction of the City of London. plus. Refusing to hold a referendum in such a situation Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): On that basis, will not stand. The Prime Minister told us: would the hon. Gentleman support a massive increase “Future treaty change will bring opportunities for Britain. The in Greece’s voting power over maritime matters, since it country wants us to stay in Europe, but to retrieve some powers.” is a massive contributor to the European maritime Now, we want that opportunity. We may not have economy? another chance like this. This is the time to renegotiate our relationship with the European Union. It is the Mr Leigh: To be frank, I do not think that that is a catalyst that might bring about the reform of the EU. If serious point. Everybody knows that the hon. Gentleman not now, when? is trying to tilt at windmills. Things are getting worse, 157WH European Council8 DECEMBER 2011 European Council 158WH

[Mr Leigh] unless it includes cast-iron guarantees that we can all accept and that protect our vital national interests, because the United Kingdom’s level of influence on particularly those in relation to our financial sector. new financial rules has decreased. Regulation is now geared less towards financial services growth, and more Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab): towards curtailing financial market economy. The Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is not in our perception in many continental capitals—there may be national interest that the Government are deeply divided a reason for this—is that the so-called Anglo Saxon on the issue, and that the Prime Minister is therefore light-touch capitalism needs to be reined in. In the past, weak and isolated in the European Union and less able EU politicians and policy makers generally, but not to negotiate the sorts of things demanded by the hon. always, felt constrained from imposing financial regulation Gentleman? on the UK, but that has now ceased to be the case. I agree that United Kingdom regulation has moved from Mr Leigh: What is in our national interest—we see it the light-touch concept, but its new focus on regulatory in this Chamber today—is that patriotic Members of judgment looks set to clash with the prevailing rules-based Parliament are prepared to speak up for the vital national culture at the EU. In addition, the eurozone crisis is interest. By speaking out this afternoon, we are actually increasingly likely to create exceptional needs and political supporting the Prime Minister in his negotiating stance, incentives for the euro countries to act in the interests of because I believe that we stand for what the British their own eurozone of 10. people want. I believe that all those reasons—the new emphasis on qualified majority voting, our inability to use our veto Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab): I would like it to be put in this marketplace, and the increasing tendency of the on the record that, while not many Opposition Members European Union to want to interfere in the financial are present, many of them, as well as many Labour marketplace—are as big a threat to the main motivator party members and millions of Labour party supporters of our economy as anything that we have seen in throughout the country, want to see our Prime Minister history. What do we do about it? I think that this is a standing up for this country and making sure that we decisive moment for the Prime Minister. He has to say get some of those powers back. The most important in the conference that he is not prepared to sign any thing that the country wants, however, is a referendum treaty unless he receives cast-iron guarantees that our on the whole question of Europe. financial sector will be set free from interference. If he does not get such cast-iron guarantees, I believe that he Mr Leigh: I am very grateful to the hon. Lady for that must be prepared to veto any treaty. If he is then told intervention. Her courage, independence and intellect that the 10 will go ahead and create their own treaty, he are widely admired throughout Parliament, because must declare that illegal. Although that may sound like hers is a voice that stands up for reason and for democracy. a very dramatic thing to do, I have read in today’s I reiterate what the Secretaries of State for Northern papers that German commentators are already talking Ireland and for Work and Pensions and many of us about even the threat of our Prime Minister standing have said this week. The creation of true fiscal and up for British national interests as being “obnoxious,” monetary union throughout much of Europe, with the but that is precisely what all European countries do. ability to compel nation states to, in effect, subscribe to The first lesson of history, as I have said, is the overwhelming particular levels of debt and taxation, is such a fundamental imperative on behalf of successive British Governments shift of power, that it would be a dereliction of duty, over the centuries to protect our commercial interests. legalism in its worst form and slippery tactics, to say The second lesson of history is that all Governments in that that does not demand a referendum. We are talking Europe act in their own financial interest—all are about such a fundamental shift in our relationship with determined by their own history. Europe that it would be an appalling attack on the good name of politicians and politics in general if, once We need not say much about recent German history, again, we were to use mere legalism to say that a but we know that there is an imperative throughout referendum is not needed. German history to extend their marketplaces, particularly I finish by joining my hon. Friend the Member for into the east in the Balkans. We know that there is an Harwich and North Essex and agreeing with what he imperative on behalf of French Governments to hug said when opening the debate. An increasing groundswell Germany close, so the French President and German of opinion in this country says that we want a renegotiation Chancellor will be acting entirely in their own national of our relationship with Europe. We want to concentrate interest, which is what we demand of our Prime Minister. on our traditional strength of having the free trade of I hope I will be forgiven for saying this, but we have goods and people with Europe, which, by the way, is not had enough of spin and of reading about British Prime at risk. It is a complete myth that somehow we will lose Ministers who, over the past 20 or 30 years, have said in that when Europe has a massive balance of trade surplus the days preceding a summit that they will stand up for with us. We want a renegotiation and, having achieved British national interests and ensure that they are protected, that, let us put the decision to the British people and only to come back with a Chamberlain-esque piece of move forward. paper, saying, “I have negotiated very hard, got an opt-out from this and that, and succeeded in standing 3pm up for British interests,” when such guarantees are not worth the piece of paper they are written on. I suspect Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): First, may I that agreements have already been made among the apologise for arriving slightly late for the introductory sherpas and the miners, and that our Prime Minister speech? I congratulate the hon. Member for Harwich will be offered something, but that will not be enough and North Essex (Mr Jenkin) on initiating a very important 159WH European Council8 DECEMBER 2011 European Council 160WH debate at this historic moment. It is important that of a single currency. They will benefit only when their Government Members and, indeed, the people of this countries can re-establish some independence and start country know that some of us on the left take a strongly to reflate their economies. critical view of the European Union and what it is Many millions of working people in those countries doing at the moment, both in democratic terms and on feel that their leaders have left them behind. Indeed, economic grounds. I will not speak for long because during the past two weeks, I spent several days in many others want to contribute. Copenhagen last week and two days in Brussels this As powers have been transferred to the European week. I have heard people bemoaning the fact that they Union, we have had a consistent erosion of democracy. are drifting away from their politicians and that there is Within the European Union itself, real power is not a gulf between the political class and the people. If with the European Parliament, although it can make a people in many of those countries were asked what they lot of noise; real power is with the Commission. The want, they would probably say that their views are Commission is a completely undemocratic body run in similar to ours. a secretive way by the Eurocrats who want to govern The Eurobarometer shows that there is increasing our lives bureaucratically, rather than democratically. Euroscepticism across the European Union. We are run We have already seen the beginnings of bureaucratic by a bureaucratic elite who want unity at all costs on government in Greece and, indeed, in Italy. At some their terms and who are leaving behind their own people. point, the people of those countries will react against We must avoid that. At least we have a more serious that, particularly when they have increasing austerity Eurosceptic voice in Britain from hon. Members on and unemployment rammed down their throats. both sides of the Chamber and, indeed, among our I am concerned about how the economy is being run electorate. I hope very much that our leaders will recognise at the moment. The view is expressed in the media and that and start to suggest that we should have separate by our politicians and some of our leaders that somehow currencies and go back to a world where we perhaps dismantling the euro would be a total disaster and that even have pegged currencies at appropriate parities. we must do everything that we can to save it. That is not Each country should be able to manage its own affairs true. Some people who occasionally write in our journals with its own interest rates, its own fiscal policy and its say that dismantling the euro would not be that damaging. own parity with other currencies. That is the world that In fact, we need a controlled deconstruction of the euro worked in the post-war period, and it has been destroyed for those countries that clearly cannot sustain their by those who want to create a country called Europe—or membership because their real exchange rate is way out part of Europe, at least. of line with that of Germany and others. We must create a situation whereby those countries can recreate Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con): To their own currencies, find an appropriate parity and reinforce that point, the hon. Gentleman may want to start to reflate their economies behind those currency reflect on the fact that, since 1945, there have been barriers. around 80 situations in which countries have left currency I think that everyone now accepts that Greece will unions. In the vast majority of cases, those countries leave the euro at some point, and when that happens, it benefited from that devaluation. It is an economic fact will re-establish the drachma. Greece will devalue that devaluation allows greater competitiveness, and the substantially—30% or 50%—and all of a sudden, it will austerity packages in Italy and Greece would therefore become the cheapest place in Europe to have a holiday. not need to be so severe. Everyone will go to Greece for their holidays and the Greek economy will recover, as it will do in so many Kelvin Hopkins: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his other ways. Greece will not be able to buy as many intervention. Indeed, he is absolutely right, and the BMWs and Mercedes from Germany, but it will start to Soviet Union is the best example. Many currencies were regenerate its internal economy and its people will start created after the break-up of the Soviet Union. When to live a decent life again. Other countries that are much Slovakia broke away from the Czech Republic, it created bigger than Greece are in a similar position, and so a currency and that was not a problem. I am sure that others will need to follow. both economies—certainly Slovakia’s—benefited from I do not agree with the idea that such an approach that. would be disastrous for us all. If those countries can get From time to time, we have had to adjust the parity of out of the euro, re-establish and start reflating their our currency in relation to other currencies. That has economies, their economies will start to grow. If we been necessary and beneficial. The Bretton Woods insist on their staying in the euro and having increasing settlement made provision for that in 1944; in fact, austerity, that will mean more unemployment and a fall Bretton Woods wanted to go further. Keynes and others in demand, and the whole economy of the European suggest that some countries ought to be required to Union will start to go into a deep black hole. revalue if they have a very large trade surplus, as indeed I have said this many times: the idea that being one major country in Europe has with the rest of critical of the European Union or wanting to re-establish Europe at the moment. Such countries ought to be a national currency is being anti-European is nonsense. required to get some balance within the international I see myself as a passionate European. I am European economy. by history and by virtue of where I live. I love everything about Europe. I love the music, the culture, the languages George Eustice (Camborne and Redruth) (Con): I and the people. I also stand shoulder to shoulder with congratulate the hon. Gentleman on all the work that working-class people in Europe. As a socialist, people he has done over the years to keep Britain out of the would expect me to do that. Working-class people will euro. Does he agree that a big advantage to a country not benefit from the continuation of this stupid system having its own currency is the ability to act and make 161WH European Council8 DECEMBER 2011 European Council 162WH

[George Eustice] in the EU, which just makes the problem of not having a lender of last resort even more existential for the decisions? Britain’s experience during the past 10 years eurozone. I therefore have genuine concerns about whether has shown that the ability to act is far more important the proposals actually offer a solution. than having a seat at a table where people squabble and Here we are on the eve of a very important summit, cannot agree. which is designed, on the face of it at least, to put the market’s fears to bed once and for all. The Prime Kelvin Hopkins: The essence of democracy must be Minister has a strong hand, because the German Chancellor elected Governments in nation states. Internationalism and the French President need a treaty at the 27 member is not about getting rid of national Governments and state level, for two practical reasons. First, if they international boundaries; it is about working in close started again, with just the 17 eurozone members trying co-operation with other countries. We can continue to to create a treaty between themselves, they simply could be internationalist, while retaining our economic not do that in the time frame that the markets would independence. That is the way forward. permit them. That is a very practical issue, which they I shall finish on this note. Things are changing. John need to consider. Under the Lisbon treaty, however, Rentoul is a journalist who supported the European treaty changes can be fast-tracked. Secondly, as was idea through decades. Two weeks ago, he wrote in The pointed out earlier, the 17, as a group, could not simply Independent on Sunday that he has to admit that Peter annex the EU institutions and use them for themselves; Shore and Bryan Gould were right to say that the euro they would require the permission of the 27 EU members. would not work. I was friendly with both those great For both those reasons, a treaty is needed at the 27 member people, and when Bryan Gould was around, I was state level, and that makes the Prime Minister’s hand friendly with him, too. That is a sign that things are very strong. changing and that even those who have been what some Like other Members, I am pleased that the Prime people unkindly call Eurofanatics are changing their Minister is absolutely determined to protect Britain’s views. interests. What does that mean? First and foremost for every EU member, regardless of whether it is in or out 3.8 pm of the euro, that must be about stopping the crisis—there is no doubt about that. If the euro descends into a Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con): I disorderly collapse, that will easily cost 6% or 7% of am delighted to follow the hon. Member for Luton British GDP, and it would probably push us into a North (Kelvin Hopkins) and to find myself agreeing worse recession than the one after the financial crisis of with him yet again—we also agree on high-speed rail. 2008. There is therefore no doubt that our top priority I am also grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for should be to solve the eurozone crisis. Gainsborough (Mr Leigh) for his history lesson. I confess that I am one of those economists who tends to look at Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): As my hon. things from an economic perspective, rather than an Friend will be aware, this is not the first time European historical one. leaders have met to try to resolve the crisis in the What concerns me about the latest proposals for eurozone. Why does she think that eurozone leaders eurozone crisis prevention measures is that they simply and, indeed, the leaders of the whole EU will be any will not work. It boils down to the fact that what makes more successful this time than they were on any of the the difference between sovereign risk and credit risk is previous occasions when they met to try to come up the undoubtedness of sovereign debt, backed by a lender with a grand solution to save the euro? of last resort. In the end, if a country is a sovereign risk, its lender of last resort can print money, its currency Andrea Leadsom: I thank my hon. Friend for those can devalue and it can get out of its difficulties that way. remarks. There is a desire to come up with a solution; The eurozone has as yet failed to address that fundamental but as I said, I do not think that it will work, for reasons issue, and the measures that it now proposes mean of economics and the markets’ actions. I hear what my nothing more than ever-greater fiscal integration but hon. Friend says. without the ability to issue proper sovereign debt. Market Britain is clearly struggling to recover. The eurozone chaos will therefore not cease for longer than the short crisis is testing us and is close to pushing us back into a term. no-growth, or even a recessionary, period. We therefore need to look after Britain’s interests by not only protecting Mr Jenkin: Does my hon. Friend share my concern the eurozone, but ensuring that we create safeguards for that, even if the European Central Bank was turned our most important industry, and I want to put in a plea into a fully fledged sovereign central bank and printed for financial services. unlimited sums, it might provide liquidity and buy some There has been a lot of talk about holding a referendum, space for a while, but the fundamental structural problems changing the common agricultural policy or simply between the different economies stuck in the eurozone repatriating powers, but what do all those things mean? would not be addressed? Austerity packages would still If we hold a referendum, what would the question be? need to be applied, but the EU’s institutions do not have How quickly and easily could people understand enough the democratic legitimacy to impose austerity on countries about the implications of a question such as whether we in that way. should allow the 17 fiscally to unite? That is an extraordinarily complicated question, and referendum Andrea Leadsom: Yes, I agree. The key issue is that if questions really need to be along simple lines, such as these countries are to have sovereign risk, they must whether Britain should be in or out of the EU. At a time completely guarantee and underwrite each other’s debt when these things are in flux, that is almost impossible and obligations. That is very unlikely ever to be achieved to answer. 163WH European Council8 DECEMBER 2011 European Council 164WH

Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): I should like to ask Let me come to why defending the City is the key my hon. Friend a simple question. How much more priority at the moment. People talk about renegotiating important can things get than when we face a fundamental EU directives that have already been implemented, but change in the relationship between ourselves and the as we have found as part of the Fresh Start project EU? It is as simple as that. This is an historic question, work, that is real spaghetti; it is extraordinarily difficult and it demands a referendum. Why does she think to unwind existing, implemented policies. I am a very otherwise? practical person, and the best approach in terms of doability is to look at what has not yet been implemented Andrea Leadsom: We will just have to agree to disagree. and what the biggest threat to Britain is. On those two If people are in government, they govern. At the current counts, there is no doubt that we should focus on moment, a referendum would be extraordinarily important financial services. in the history of Britain, but it would be extraordinarily Financial services account for 11% of Britain’s tax difficult to get the sort of answer that would give the take each year—about £50 billion. It employs nearly Government a coherent direction. It is for the Government 2 million people; it is our biggest export; and it creates a to make the best decision at this moment. For what it is huge positive trade surplus. Given that we have big worth, I have always thought that a referendum needs overall trade deficit, we would be looking at a far worse to come at the tail end of a renegotiation of Britain’s trade balance without financial services. Added to that relationship with the euro and that it should be used to is the fact that the potential for the future growth of ratify such a renegotiation, based on the simple question financial services is all outside the eurozone; it is in the of whether Britain should be in or out of the EU on the BRIC countries—Brazil, Russia, India and China—and basis of a pre-negotiated set of terms with the EU. America and Asia. That is where the potential lies. Yet, before the financial crisis, Britain was in a strong position Mr Jenkin: I could accept that approach, and my in creating an EU financial services single market. We hon. Friend has answered her own question about what were influential. That was all about deregulation, open the referendum question could be. We will not agree the access to markets, growth and jobs. Britain did very well treaty texts at the summit; the meeting will discuss out of that and so, by the way, did the rest of Europe. issues of principle and the treaties will then be drafted, Other eurozone countries did extraordinarily well, because but their ratification will take months if not years. We the City was the entry-point to European financial are talking about a referendum some time during that services markets. That benefited us all. period to ratify a new deal for Britain. Does my hon. Since the financial crisis, however, the agenda has Friend not think that that would be a sensible way to changed. Britain has rightly changed its regulatory go? Would it not strengthen our Prime Minister’s hand environment by greatly increasing controls, the closeness if he was to put that view to those at the meeting this of supervision and the requirements for capital, liquidity weekend? and so on. The EU’s goal has been more to ban what it does not like: “Let’s reduce financial activity; we will Andrea Leadsom: I am perhaps not understanding. constrain, prevent and reduce what is going on.”Nowhere The calls that I have seen the media are all about our in the EU treaties is there any talk of prudential decisions needing a referendum, but now is not the moment for that the EU might make that would go against the one. fundamental commitment to single markets and growth opportunities, so the 49 EU directives and other proposals Mr Jenkin: If I may say so, my hon. Friend has seen a on financial services coming down the track are already bit too much of the Government’s propaganda, rather in breach of the spirit of the EU treaties, which are all than heard what some of us have been saying. We about creating better markets and more access. cannot, of course, ask for a referendum on the spur of I want to mention a couple of those matters in the moment; we are asking for a referendum on renegotiated particular. First, on the financial transactions tax, people terms of membership, which we desperately need and may think, “They will never do it; it would be cutting which this summit demonstrates that we will need. We off their nose to spite their face and the business will should be able to tell our European partners, “Go simply go elsewhere.” Actually, however, I think many ahead with your proposals for fiscal union. We don’t people in the EU are determined to do it, because they think they’ll work. It’s a big change for us, so we need do not want the business. They think that Anglo-Saxon these measures in return. As part of the ratification light-touch regulation and the success of financial services process, we will put this to the British people and are partly to blame for the eurozone crisis. They are recommend a yes vote, as long as you agree our terms.” quite wrong, but that is where they lay the blame, so they would consider a financial transactions tax that Andrea Leadsom: I thank my hon. Friend. In truth, would drive business abroad to be a good thing. To right now, I genuinely believe that the Prime Minister anyone who thinks, “They would not do it,” I would say has to focus his effort on creating the best solution for that they would if they had the opportunity. Of course, Britain, and that is what he is doing. As for all the that would be disastrous for Britain. It would not be a demands for referendums, the fact that I am confused tax on bankers; it would be a tax on pensioners, investors about what my hon. Friend has been saying, although I and savers, because it would go straight to the bottom am quite close to these issues, demonstrates that other line of every investment portfolio. If anyone said that it people will doubtless also be confused. The demands would serve bankers right, I would reply that it would are seen as our party, at least, trying to cause trouble for affect not bankers but savers. I could not support that. the Prime Minister. For that reason alone, now is the Secondly, a slightly unbelievable idea has been proposed time to get behind the Prime Minister, who has promised in the eurozone that a clearing house with more than the British people that he will defend our interests. 5% of its turnover denominated in euros should relocate 165WH European Council8 DECEMBER 2011 European Council 166WH

[Andrea Leadsom] that he could come back from the summit, waving, Chamberlain-like, a piece of paper in the air and saying, to the eurozone. That would be daylight robbery and “Haven’t I done well? I have protected a number of steal our business, and I am glad that the British things that were under threat in the City of London”— Government are already challenging it in the European despite having ignored the historic opportunity of the Court of Justice. Where in the single market treaties, summit and allowed several other things to slip by which are all about growth and jobs, does that appear? without repatriating anything at all in the process? How would it support British growth and jobs? It would not. I am extremely concerned about the tone Andrea Leadsom: That is an important point, because and extent of EU directives coming down the track. the Prime Minister will not be just having a chat and They are not yet implemented; but unfortunately, under getting general agreement; he will want to get a firm QMV, they could be implemented without Britain’s assurance and put a marker in the sand saying, “We feel say-so. your pain and share your goal and will want to protect Britain’s specific national interest by including our own George Eustice: I agree with my hon. Friend that the requirement in the treaty.” There cannot be simply a Prime Minister is right to prioritise the financial services gentleman’s handshake, so that what is agreed can be directives in the negotiations. Is she aware that Open watered down later. There must be a firm commitment Europe has today published a poll of City institutions on all sides that Britain’s national interest will be protected. showing that more than 60% of them believe that the burden of regulation coming down the tracks from the European Union outweighs the benefits of the single Mr Nuttall: Does my hon. Friend agree that the market? problem with marks in the sand is that, when the tide comes in, they get washed away? Andrea Leadsom: I have not seen the poll—I have been looking forward to seeing it—and I am not surprised Andrea Leadsom: That is a good observation and I by what my hon. Friend says. Although, as I have said, have noticed that, but it was not what I meant, and my the treaties are all about expanding markets, growth hon. Friend knows it. What I have outlined is down to and opportunities, some of the unintended consequences the Prime Minister to achieve. He has committed to do of EU policies have been the complete opposite of that, it. We must have confidence in his determination to and never more so than in financial services. I think that follow it through. a deliberate attempt has been made to reduce financial services activity in the eurozone. Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): I respect Financial services should be the top priority for the my hon. Friend’s intellect and erudition on this issue, Prime Minister. He has been clear about drawing a but she will be familiar with the story of Pyrrhus and marker in the sand to the effect that Britain wants his remark, “One more such victory and we are doomed.” a secure legal agreement that, in the event that financial We can very well defeat the straw man of the financial services legislation is against Britain’s best interest, we transactions tax, while we ignore the creation of a de can prevent it from being imposed on us. facto country, perhaps called Greater Germany, that will militate against the long-term financial, economic Emma Reynolds: The hon. Lady is making an eloquent and political interests of the United Kingdom. speech. Does she support our idea that, to protect financial services and decisions on the internal market, Andrea Leadsom: I do not see things as starkly as the Prime Minister should call for all non-euro member that. We are now in a position where the Prime Minister states—the 10—to be observers at the euro group meetings can protect Britain’s interest and is committed to doing that will be held so regularly? so. We need to give him the chance to do that. Andrea Leadsom: Any attempt that the non-eurozone I want briefly to discuss things that we can do ourselves. members make to protect their interests is important, First, there is an awful lot of talk about repatriation but perhaps an even better way to do it would be to and things that we could do differently, but in the long ensure that, if any vote is passed under QMV by the years of the previous Government, the EU was largely eurozone bloc, there should also be a supporting vote ignored and many opportunities to improve how we do under QMV on the part of the out-group of 10, at a things at home were missed. Some quick examples very minimum, to ensure that the in-group could not include how we implement EU directives. We have an ride roughshod over the out-group. opt-out from the working time directive, as do 16 other member countries, which makes a majority in the 27, if Mr Leigh: We now know that the policy of Her my maths serves me correctly. We could band together Majesty’s loyal Opposition is to be an observer. with the other 16 and demand that the EU reconsider the directive in its entirety. I have talked to a British Andrea Leadsom: I thank my hon. Friend for his delegation of MEPs who think that there could well be intervention. interest in doing that. Why have we not done so, if we all like to think that the directive is disastrous? Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): I entirely Secondly, why do we have so few British workers in agree with my hon. Friend about the threat to financial the EU institutions? Why are none of our people employed services and the importance of focusing on the City and there? Why did the previous Prime Minister choose to welcome the fact that the Prime Minister has said that put someone in the post of High Representative of the he intends to do precisely that at the summit. None the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, instead less, does my hon. Friend agree that there is a subtle risk of having someone in the financial services commissioner 167WH European Council8 DECEMBER 2011 European Council 168WH post? It has been left to a Frenchman who does not thought that we had settled quite a lot of the issues that understand financial services particularly well to do are being debated at the moment. When we discussed at that job for us. inordinate length the European Union Act 2011, which Something that should be entirely within our gift to has already been passed, we spent countless hours debating sort out is scrutiny in Parliament, and we do not do when to hold a referendum and when to look at enough of that here. We leave it up to the incredibly renegotiation of powers. We came to a conclusion and a overworked European Scrutiny Committee, which is settled view, as a coalition and as a Parliament, which ably chaired by my hon. Friend the Member for Stone was pretty clear. It represented something of a compromise (Mr Cash). In areas such as financial services and between the Liberal Democrat and the natural Conservative agriculture, we should pass directives on to the specialist positions, which seemed quite acceptable: a treaty change Select Committees, which have the interest and expertise should be subject to an Act of Parliament, but if that to look at detailed areas, and ask them for their help treaty change involves a fundamental and significant and support to ensure that, before we receive directives shift in powers from the British to the European level of that we then have to implement, we have done the best government, then that should be automatically subject job that we possibly can for Britain. to a referendum. Yet now, only a matter of months later, this whole issue seems to have been reopened. That is a problem, because it makes it more difficult—let 3.30 pm us put it no more strongly than that—for Ministers to Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): I start the negotiate with confidence, knowing what position they Liberal Democrat contribution to the debate. This may are representing back in this country. We are not so alarm the hon. Member for Harwich and North Essex much sending them naked into the debating chamber, (Mr Jenkin), but I am going to agree with him about as sending them so wrapped up in unrealistic expectations something. This debate should have taken place on the that they cannot move, which is a problem. Floor of the House. As the hon. Member for South Ministers need to focus on the issues at hand in the Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom) has just pointed Council, which are threefold. The eurozone is not the out, we need to reform how we scrutinise European only issue, because there are two other important topics affairs in this Parliament. It is not adequate. In fact, I for discussion. On energy, if I can put it in the language have already made a contribution to the discussions on of this debate, I speak from a nuclear-sceptic point of scrutiny by suggesting to Ministers that we involve view. There is the welcome process of independent departmental and other Select Committees in scrutinising scrutiny, at European level, of the safety of European forthcoming European legislation, as she has just suggested. nuclear programmes. In the wake of the Fukushima I strongly welcome that suggestion. disaster, which will potentially cost the Japanese economy hundreds of billions of pounds, it is incredibly important Mr Cash: As Chair of the Committee in question, I that the process is ongoing and rigorous. If I have a assure the hon. Gentleman that we frequently have concern that I would like to be raised at the European arrangements whereby we refer particular directives Council, it is that the Commission report makes the and regulations to departmental Select Committees. case for tighter safety rules but does so in a limited way, Sometimes they do not actually look at them, despite even though it concedes that many of the regulations the fact that we have asked them to do so. We also asked that were already in force before the Fukushima disaster the Government, on behalf of the European Scrutiny in March are still not being applied throughout the Committee unanimously, for a full three-hour debate European Union. Some states, including the UK, Poland, on the Floor of the House, of the kind that is taking Slovakia and Belgium, have not updated national legislation place here, and it was refused. That is the state of play. in line with a European directive from 2009. At present, That comes largely from the fact that we are in a there are no common safety standards or criteria for coalition. nuclear power plants across the European Union. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for North Wiltshire Martin Horwood: I do not think that it comes from (Mr Gray) says, from a sedentary position, “Good.” He the fact that we are in a coalition. I do not want to risk may have a lot of confidence in British nuclear safety my Liberal Democrat credentials by agreeing with the regimes. I hope he has exactly the same confidence in hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash) as well, but I think Polish safety regimes and in the safety regimes of other that this issue is worthy of a debate on the Floor of the European nations. The bad news for him, I am afraid, is House. I know that his Committee refers matters for that radioactivity, as we found out after Chernobyl, is scrutiny to departmental Select Committees, and it is no respecter of national boundaries. not good enough if those Committees are not prepared to scrutinise those matters. They have the expertise and Mr Gray: Does the hon. Gentleman recall that Chernobyl the Committee experts who can make a serious contribution is in fact in Russia? to the scrutiny process. I restrain myself from suggesting that that might remove the necessity for the European Martin Horwood: It is not, actually; it is in Ukraine. Scrutiny Committee, but the point is that we need wider It was in the Soviet Union at the time, but the point is and deeper discussion of European matters in this that it is only quite recently that some farms in Wales Parliament, and I entirely agree with that. have had all restrictions lifted as a result of the radioactivity One of the healthy things about being in a coalition is that swept right across Europe. The point is that the that we can bring different points of view on issues such wider we can spread safety regulations on this the better. as Europe, as well as others, to the table without actually The European Union is an important vehicle for doing having to conceal them and pretend to be coming from that. I hope that that message about a tighter safety exactly the same place, which the previous Government remit and tighter safety monitoring regime has been had to do. None the less, it is slightly frustrating. I well taken. 169WH European Council8 DECEMBER 2011 European Council 170WH

Mr Jenkin: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? If the eurozone goes down, it will do considerable damage to the entire world economy, let alone to the Martin Horwood: Is this on the subject of nuclear British economy. It should be our No. 1 national priority energy? Oh, okay. at the Council to advance the process of securing the future of the eurozone, however it happens to proceed. Mr Jenkin: We have one of the best nuclear inspectorate That the eurozone countries have not yet agreed the and safety regimes in the world, if not the best. Is the treaty process or the rules that ought to surround it is a hon. Gentleman seriously saying that he would prefer matter of enormous frustration and anxiety. It reflects nuclear inspections to be run by the people who could badly on the leaders of those countries that they have not even get their accounts audited for the past 15 years, not yet come to such an agreement. and who gave us the common agricultural policy and The second clear national priority has to be to defend the common fisheries policy? Does he not see that these Britain’s interests in the process, which is rightly the multinational European bodies are grossly inefficient instinct of the Prime Minister at the Council. To come and hopelessly unaccountable, which is why the British with a list of unrealistic demands that would hamper people have had enough of them? and threaten the whole process of resolving the crisis, however, would be spectacularly reckless and playing Martin Horwood: Well, no, in short. If the hon. politics with Britain’s national interest. I apologise to Gentleman has such enormous confidence in Britain’s the thinly attended Labour Benches, but I am afraid safety regime, then he should be trying to export those that as a country we are still deep in the process of safety standards to the rest of Europe. I cannot see how cleaning up the mess left to us by the previous Government. he can possibly conceive of a better vehicle for doing Our economy remains in a fragile position, which is that than the European Union. Is he seriously going to possibly more fragile than we had expected at this stage. approach 27 different European nations and try to encourage them to adopt our safety standards, or is he going to use the vehicle of— Emma Reynolds: When the Labour party left government, the economy was growing. The policies of this Government Mr Jenkin rose— have choked off the recovery.

Martin Horwood: No, we need to move on from Martin Horwood: The economy is still growing, actually, safety regimes. Is the hon. Gentleman seriously suggesting but that is a debate for another day. The voters made up that that will be a more effective approach than trying their mind about who was responsible for the economic to reach a common position across the European Union? mess that we found ourselves in. We are still in a vulnerable position, and all colleagues Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): I am a chartered need to be able to go back to their constituencies, to aerospace engineer who has a friend who is a chartered look pensioners, small business people and others in the aerospace engineer working in the nuclear industry, and face and to say that we are doing everything that we can we agree that nuclear industry standards are quite poor. to speed a resolution of the crisis and that we are not Secondly, when I was a kid, the Eurofighter Typhoon throwing spanners in the works. was flying quite successfully as the EAP, with just British Aerospace backing it. What slowed that project Mr Cash: Does the hon. Gentleman not agree that it down was making it pan-European. I do not share his is extremely unwise to make assumptions about the optimism about the idea of pan-European technical existing arrangements? They include so much over- standards, which is not borne out. regulation, centralisation and deprivation of oxygen for small and medium-sized businesses not only in this Martin Horwood: I congratulate the hon. Gentleman country but in the European Union that, precisely on his qualifications. because there is no growth there—for all those reasons Apart from the eurozone, the other key issue that will and some others—it is impossible for us to grow, what be discussed at the summit is, of course, the accession of with the 40% of trade that we have with those other Croatia. We very much look forward to the accession of countries. Solving the causes of the failure of the European Croatia, which is a brilliant example of the transformative Union is so necessary. process of applying for membership of the European Union. Croatia has managed to address so many issues Martin Horwood: The hon. Gentleman makes a rather relating to its judiciary, economy and the reform of its interesting point about regulation of the smallest businesses, political processes. That is an example that should be because we have a rather good case study. The Under- followed by other candidate countries looking to accede Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, to the Union. It is inspiring to remember in that the my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston and Surbiton area of Europe most recently torn apart by war, those in (Mr Davey), has been active in going to other European the Balkans still see European Union membership as Ministers, in particular those with a similar outlook on something that helps to guarantee future peace. That is economic policy, and taking a collaborative, positive one of the founding principles of the European Union and co-operative approach to reach agreement that we and one that we should not lose sight of in the current should lift onerous accounting rules from the smallest melee over the eurozone and possible treaty reforms. businesses, not only in this country but throughout The third, and obviously the most important, issue Europe. [Interruption.] It might be a small concession, that the Council has to address is the crisis in the but it was progress through a collaborative process that eurozone. Here, I think, we are on common ground in has lifted some of the burden of European regulation realising that the threat of a disorderly collapse in the from businesses in the UK. There will be other examples eurozone is of enormous importance to this country. of what Members may call repatriation, if they want. 171WH European Council8 DECEMBER 2011 European Council 172WH

In fisheries policy, we are likely to see the movement of on which he offered the voters of Cheltenham at the last powers over fisheries from the European level and more general election a Liberal Democrat policy prospectus to national and regional levels in future. So it is possible that included an in/out referendum? Yet, in the face of to achieve change without a confrontational attitude massive and irrevocable constitutional change today, he and, as in both those cases, without treaty change. has resiled from that undertaking to his own electors. As I have said, to defend Britain’s interests during the whole process is important. One of the ways to do so is Martin Horwood: I have resiled from no undertaking to prevent marginalisation, which is a real danger. To an whatever. There is a great habit of selective quotation of extent, I share some of the anxieties expressed by the Liberal Democrat manifesto. The whole sentence Conservative Members—it could happen that we might said that we would offer an in/out referendum at a time be excluded from the core of decision making in Europe— of a fundamental shift in the relationship between and I would not be happy with the Labour party’s Britain and Europe. That is why we supported a referendum approach that we should be observers to the process. I at the time of the Lisbon treaty—I am not sure which want us to be participants. We must ensure that Britain way the hon. Gentleman voted on that, but I do not plays a central role in whatever new structures emerge remember many Conservative Members coming into from the crisis, and we need to be able to discuss and the Lobby beside us. Incidentally, we also supported a debate with the members of the eurozone how their referendum at the time of Maastricht, and did not economies move forward. As EU members, we will succeed then, too. If there is another fundamental shift always have more say in the process than we would do if in Britain’s relationship with Europe, I fully expect us to we committed the ultimate act of economic suicide and support a referendum at that point. left the European Union, as some hon. Members might want. The risk, however, is that some marginalisation is Mr Jenkin: Is the hon. Gentleman merely another of possible, although we increase the risk of that if we roll those politicians who only promises a referendum when up at European Councils with a list of unrealistic he knows that he cannot deliver it? demands and throw a spanner in the work of resolving possibly the biggest crisis to have faced continental Martin Horwood: That is a lovely rhetorical line, but Europe for decades. That does not do us much good. that accusation has been levelled at the Liberal Democrats on many fronts, and yet we find ourselves in government Mr Nuttall: Will my hon. Friend give way? and sticking to the letter and the spirit of our manifesto on a whole range of issues. [Interruption.] I opposed Martin Horwood: I will give one example. The hon. the increase in tuition fees and think that we ought to Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom) have stuck to that policy, too. We have, however, certainly mentioned clearing house regulations. Since that dealt delivered on the pupil premium and a whole range of with transactions governing euros, how would we have things, such as taking many of the lowest paid out of influenced that legislation had we been outside the taxation altogether or developing the green economy, European Union? We might have found that by leaving and we will stick to our pledge on the European Union the European Union we had excluded ourselves from as well, which is to act responsibly and to propose such decision making and enabled the EU to take referendums when it is appropriate, which will involve a precisely that kind of decision, to the immediate detriment wholesale examination of the relationship of nation of the British economy and the status of the City of states to the European Union. That is not happening at London, which is a European asset as well as a British the moment, because we are looking at an economic asset. crisis in which the eurozone countries face a fundamental question about control of fiscal discipline. Germany, Andrea Leadsom: Specifically, that would not have quite reasonably, is saying that, in return for any shift happened. It is only because the UK is in the EU that towards, for instance, the European Central Bank acting the EU can require London clearing houses to go under as a lender of last resort, some process of fiscal discipline this type of legislation. If we were not part of the EU, it that is rather stronger than the one that has operated would not affect us. inside the eurozone until now must be enforced. The other member countries, however, retain the choice Martin Horwood: I hesitate to challenge an expert in whether to submit to that fiscal discipline or to plan her own field, but we might find that the kind of some different future for themselves. interests that we are able to defend in economic policy, and financial policy specifically, within the European Mr Nuttall: On a specific point about the proposals Union would not be so easily defended if we were that the Franco-German axis has come up with, is it not outside the EU. It is one thing for Norway or Lichtenstein the case that if the eurozone had stuck to the rules that to be allowed access to European markets and to gain already govern it, it would not be in the mess that it is in the benefits of the European economic area, because today? It is in a mess, because no one was enforcing the they do not pose much of a threat to Germany, France rules. or the other EU economies. It would be different if an economy the size of Britain’s was taking advantage of Martin Horwood: I surprise myself again by finding such a situation or trying to mould the rules to our own myself in agreement with that statement. I completely advantage. It is critically important to the City of London agree with it. That was one of the weaknesses of that we retain our membership of the EU. the euro’s establishment and the stability mechanism surrounding it. It is precisely the sort of weakness Mr Stewart Jackson: The hon. Gentleman makes a that the eurozone countries must now address, and I number of assumptions about the likely ramifications think they clearly understand that, too. I suspect that of our leaving the European Union. Was that the basis some member Governments—Greece may be one—deeply 173WH European Council8 DECEMBER 2011 European Council 174WH

[Martin Horwood] will come to around £40 billion over the next seven years. That would pay for a 6p cut in small business regret having entered such a relaxed arrangement without corporation tax in each of the seven years. My goodness, the sort of fiscal discipline that was needed to make it would that not be the spur for growth that we all want work. That is probably common ground among people and are wishing for? I also believe that such a relationship of all parties in many different countries. would reflect the fact that this Conservative party—my The important message for Ministers going to the Conservative party—is fed up with promises to rein in European Council and for the Prime Minister is that the EU, when very little has happened over the almost British national interests are at stake in the process, but 40 years that we have been a member. that we can serve them best by acting positively and I am slightly more sceptical than most that we can collaboratively and by taking an approach based on work the repatriation of powers. There has been a lot of co-operation, not confrontation. As I have said, it is not talk about that, but our history in repatriating powers always necessary to confront people to achieve shifts in has not been good. Let us take the working time directive responsibility to national level—we have seen that with as an example. We all remember the great hullabaloo regard to small businesses, and we may see it with about the importance of extracting the opt-out from regard to fisheries—and we must develop that sort of that directive. It will be no surprise to hon. Members grown-up approach to EU politics, not a constant obsessive, here that that directive was reintroduced through the confrontational attitude. back door. What are we doing now, before the summit? When it comes to talking about the Prime Minister’s Once again, we are talking about repatriating powers position being comparable with that of Neville such as the working time directive. If my memory serves Chamberlain, and therefore implying that in some way me correctly, that power was supposed to be repatriated our European partners are comparable to the Nazis— some time ago. [Interruption.] I am sorry, but if the Prime Minister is Neville Chamberlain, who is he getting the piece of Mr Jenkin: The problem is that the word “repatriation” paper from? Such language in this debate has been is open to confusion. The basic principle of the EU deeply offensive. It is unworthy of this Parliament; it is legal system is that powers cannot be repatriated. There unworthy of the Conservative party; it is profoundly is a judicial doctrine—the doctrine of the occupied insulting to the Prime Minister; and it is exactly the sort field—and once member states have delegated a power of xenophobic rhetoric that risks discrediting this country to the European Union, it cannot be recovered. There is and deeply damaging our national interests. no mechanism for doing that, which is why we need a fundamental change in our relationship with the European 3.52 pm Union to address the fundamental problem. The problem is the treaties. Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con): It is a pleasure, Mr Turner, to serve under your chairmanship. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich Mr Baron: As I said at the start, I do not buy the and North Essex (Mr Jenkin) on orchestrating this repatriation of powers. I want a fundamental renegotiation debate. I will make my comments relatively short, because of our relationship with the EU based on free trade, I am conscious that other hon. Members wish to speak. competition and growth. Such a renegotiation would Having said that, I believe that the EU summit is a recognise the fact that we want good relations with our defining moment, and a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity EU neighbours, and we want good trade relations in to create a better relationship with the EU. I sincerely particular, but we recognise that we need to engage hope that the Prime Minister seizes that opportunity better with the faster-growing economies throughout and seizes the moment. the world. In many regions of the world—those of the BRIC economies—growth rates are so much faster. This is not a little Englander approach; it is a globalist [MRS ANNE MAIN in the Chair] approach that recognises that we need to engage better It is my belief that we need a fundamental renegotiation with those faster-growing areas. of our relationship with the EU, based on free trade, competitiveness and growth, and not political union Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): I am hugely and deadweight regulation. That is a relationship that enjoying my hon. Friend’s speech; he is making some other countries enjoy. One is not speaking of utopia or excellent points. Does he agree that in 1980 the EU’s a textbook theory.Other countries enjoy such a relationship. share of world trade was some 30%, but by 2020 it is For example, Switzerland has meaningfully good relations likely to have fallen to 15%? In other words, it will have with the EU and trades with it freely, but it is not halved over a period of 40 years, yet we find ourselves weighed down by political regulation and moves to ever increasingly brought together with part of the world closer political union. Such a relation reflects the fact that will grow more slowly than the BRIC economies. that in 1973, and then in 1975, the British people voted for a free trade area and not political union. It reflects Mr Baron: My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. the fact that people generally are fed up with mindless There is much talk of Germany winning market share, interference from the EU. It reflects the fact that businesses, but one forgets that Germany has benefited from an particularly small and medium-sized enterprises, are fed artificially weak currency, to which the periphery nations up with regulation, some 90% of which comes from have contributed. Germany has had a very strong Brussels. manufacturing base allied to a weak currency, which Such a relationship would reflect the fact that taxpayers has made for heady growth, but if we take Europe are fed up with the increased cost of the EU. If one as a whole, it is falling behind. Many people do not takes into account the diminishing rebates, the budget recognise that. 175WH European Council8 DECEMBER 2011 European Council 176WH

I worry that the Government have ruled out the idea the ERM something similar and awful would happen. of a referendum. I think that is a mistake as we go into a Actually, almost to the day, our economic recovery summit, because it cuts off a key negotiating ability. kicked off. I also worry that we seem to be saying we do not want a Finally, if the eurozone wants to crack on and create two-speed or two-tier Europe, but on the other hand we closer fiscal union, that is fine. That is not, or should are trying to join in the chorus of “we must save the not, be mutually exclusive to our objective of wanting euro”, which can only mean closer fiscal union, which to negotiate a different and fundamentally new relationship can only result, as Angela Merkel has readily acknowledged, with the EU. They are not mutually exclusive. Many in a two-tier, two-speed Europe. It is nonsense and a commentators seem to suggest that by wanting to contradiction. Anybody who believes that closer fiscal renegotiate the relationship, we are breaking up or and political union will not fundamentally or materially being awkward about what the 17 eurozone members affect our relationship with the EU is living in cloud want to do. That is not the case. If they want to take cuckoo land. that path, it is up to them, but their taking that path Before I finish, I will attempt to knock down one or should not restrict us. two myths surrounding the debate. The first myth is that we must save the euro. In my 15 years in the City 4.3 pm running hundreds of millions of pounds for charities, Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. pension funds and private clients with some very large fund management groups, I have never heard so much 4.18 pm economic clap-trap. The whole concept to begin with On resuming— was flawed. The idea that we can bind divergent economies into a single currency without full fiscal union was and Mr Baron: I will keep my conclusion brief. It is often remains a mistake. Not only the concept but the solution said that now is not the right time to renegotiate our is flawed. The problem is that we are not addressing the relationship with the EU, but we have been told that for core issue of competitiveness. We have Governments almost 40 years. If this is not the right time, when will spending too much relative to their means. be? The idea, perhaps, is that we will somehow renegotiate This recession, unlike all other post-war recessions, is a new relationship after the crisis, but as I have said, our built on debt. It is a deleveraging, not a destocking, track record on doing such things is not good if one recession. Accordingly, we have to grow our way out of looks back over the past 40 years. that and reduce our debt. We cannot, as we all know, We are at a defining moment, and we need a fundamental borrow our way out of debt. The solution does not fit, renegotiation of our relationship with the EU based on so I am not convinced that the solution put forward by free trade, competitiveness and growth—just like that the present eurozone leaders will work, anyway. However, enjoyed by other countries such as Switzerland—and let us give them the benefit of the doubt. Let us say it not on the political union and dead-weight regulation buys time. The problem is that by cutting off the option that is harming this country and making it far less of devaluation—put that and the fact that the solution competitive than it should be. We are not paying our does not fit to one side for a second—even if it buys way in the world, and we need to fundamentally readdress time, we are making the austerity packages much worse. the whole situation and create a new relationship. Now I have previously broached the fact that there have is an ideal time to do that. Growing elements in Parliament been some 80 situations in which countries have left know that, as do people outside this place. My hope is currency unions since the second world war and have that the Government, and particularly the Prime Minister, benefited from the growth that has followed. We saw it will now understand that as well. in our own case when we exited the exchange rate mechanism. By binding countries into a single currency, 4.19 pm we have to make the austerity packages more severe, Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): I congratulate my because we are ruling out the option of devaluation, hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex which would increase competitiveness. The eurozone (Mr Jenkin) on securing this extremely important debate. leaders do not seem to understand that. If there was an It is a substitute for the debate that the European orderly break-up of the euro, certainly for the periphery Scrutiny Committee has insisted should be held on the nations, the Germans would still want to sell their cars Floor of the House, but which has been declined by the and the French their wine. Believe me, life would go on. Government so far. Many say that the banking system could not survive the write-off of the debts. That point was made earlier. Mr Hollobone: I am looking forward to my hon. However, the markets have already discounted the debt Friend’s speech very much indeed. Would it not have in many of these countries by 60%. It would not come been marvellous if the Leader of the House had timetabled as much of a shock if there was a 50% write-down. In an opportunity this week, perhaps on Wednesday afternoon, many cases, that would represent a 10% uplift by the for the Prime Minister to hear hon. Members’ views on banks themselves. This is an economic point that has what he should say at the European Council? Then he not been widely acknowledged and accepted. The markets would have been able to jet off today to that summit have already downgraded the debt, so this will be a with all the suggestions fresh in his mind. Instead, it was downgrade instituted by politicians. Look at what the up to the Backbench Business Committee to timetable markets themselves are telling us. the debate for this afternoon. Nobody has been able to quantify or substantiate Mr Cash: I agree. People were not listening back in why it would create economic mayhem if we did not the days of Maastricht and they are not listening now. save the euro. Siren voices also suggested that if we left That is the problem. I give special thanks to my hon. Friend 177WH European Council8 DECEMBER 2011 European Council 178WH

[Mr Cash] the present discontent come from the creation of this project in the first place by the very people who are now the Member for Harwich and North Essex not only for berating everyone else. this debate but for the consistency that he has shown since the days of the Maastricht rebellion, which I had I will go further and refer to two documents that I the honour to lead all those years ago and of which he have just obtained. One is dated 6 December. It is was a very important member. He was a new Member Mr Van Rompuy’s document, entitled “Towards a stronger of the House and he understood the position immediately, economic Union”. There is not one word about democracy as did my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford anywhere in that document—the word “democracy” and Woodford Green (Mr Duncan Smith) and a number does not appear. Similarly, in the letter written to the of others who have remained in the House. President of the European Council—Mr Van Rompuy, no less—by Mr Sarkozy and Angela Merkel, there is This is not only an historic question but a national not a single reference to the democratic question. There question. The now absent hon. Member for Luton is not one iota, not one jot of a reference to democracy North (Kelvin Hopkins) mentioned Peter Shore and in either of those documents, yet they are demanding Bryan Gould. When I set up the Maastricht referendum that this failed project be continued with greater— campaign, it was hon. Members on the other side of the deeper—integration. All the mistakes that have been House, such as Peter Shore and Bryan Gould, who made in the past are being reinforced in the new joined me in that campaign. We presented a petition, arrangement, which clearly will not work. It did not which many people may recall, of well over 500,000 work before and it will not work now. It is a tragedy— signatures; in fact, we reckon that we got 700,000 signatures I say that—that we are in the current position. I trust all told. The petition was deposited, calling for a referendum that the Prime Minister will address that during the next on the Maastricht treaty. I was delighted that my right 48 hours. hon. Friend the Prime Minister said only a couple of weeks ago that there should have been a referendum on This is not some theoretical experiment. It is about that treaty. As one who was very deeply engaged in the the daily lives of the British people and about our whole of that process, from beginning to end—much to democratic traditions and economic performance. The the dismay of those who have now, in my opinion, lost idea that a fiscal union of 17 would be stable is simply the argument—I believe that the necessity of knowing and emphatically wrong. It will concentrate and increase the views of the British people remains implicitly entrenched the dangers of centralisation and will be fundamentally in the arrangements that are now coming forward and unstable. Germany will not be able to bail out the other that therefore a referendum is essential. countries, and it is a complete strategic failure for people, including the coalition Government, to think I should now like to move on to the present time. that it can. I want to address the question facing us today in terms of the broad landscape. I wrote a pamphlet that was Germany of course wants to preserve the euro, because published in effect in this very room when we had a it is doing so well out of it. One has only to consider the conference between the leading Eurosceptics and the foreign direct investment by the Germans in other countries, leading Europhiles. It involved Charles Grant of the the extent to which those countries are in effect economic Centre for European Reform, Roland Rudd of Business satellites of Germany and the fact that the structural for New Europe and a galaxy of others. Both sides funds—I have the figures from the Library—are so regarded it as essential that we should get together and incredibly important in generating investment backed properly debate the questions on both sides of the by German contracts in those other countries, from argument with many of the best people from the two which they then repatriate the profits. This is actually a sides of the debate. In that pamphlet, I set out details German economic hegemony. Equally, I do not think that I will not go into today, but I say to those who are that the Germans are inherently hostile about this. I say interested and who read the transcript of these proceedings what I say without any hostile spirit, but I do say that that it is available. Indeed, the Prime Minister has we have to be realistic. We are desperately at risk. The written to me, saying that it is a substantial document British nation is in peril under these arrangements. and effectively, therefore, it has to be answered. He has Furthermore, the impact of this economic said as much to me, and it does have to be answered. I conglomeration in the hands of one country in particular assume that my right hon. Friend the Minister for has led not only, in effect, to the dismissal of two Prime Europe will do so in due course. Ministers, whatever their merits or demerits, but to the This is an historic turning point for both the country voting arrangements, which follow from the qualified and the Conservative party. The dream of ever-closer majority voting system. I am talking about the number union and, indeed, political and economic union has of votes that are available to Germany when it wants to failed, and the root of that trouble is the fantasy world, pursue a policy, because of its influence and, in effect, which has persisted for so many decades, of trying to its control over the countries in question, which are create economic and political union among so many dependent on it. That is the case not only in the eurozone diverse countries with diverse cultures, diverse economies of 17, but in so many of the other countries, including— and diverse democratic traditions. I say this without any disrespect for them, because I love these countries—Poland and Denmark. Then of Only today I witnessed Mr Barroso on the television course there are Bulgaria, Romania, the Baltic states, screens berating everyone in the most dictatorial language. Hungary and so on. The truth is that that is inherently He was saying that everyone had to come together for in German national interests. Indeed, we have to look the sake of saving this project. They themselves are only at what Chancellor Kohl had to say in the 1990s, responsible for having created it and they are now which I have included in a pamphlet that I wrote, called attempting to save it, despite the fact that the causes of “It’s the EU, stupid”, to see the political determination 179WH European Council8 DECEMBER 2011 European Council 180WH behind Germany’s desire to ensure that the euro survives. Martin Horwood: The hon. Gentleman is making an Angela Merkel is now using that very language in the interesting speech. If he was Nicolas Sarkozy—if he same context. can imagine that—exposed as his economy is to Greek I do not blame the Germans. I have said in this debt in particular, what would he do, if he is so critical Chamber that I recognise the fact that to a great extent of the proposed arrangements? they have shown their commercial nous—they have taken advantage of the system to ensure that they get Mr Cash: First, there is a strong case for getting out the best out of it. The organisation is not a European of the euro, because that would enable countries union, but effectively a greater Germany. to—[Interruption.] It is described as irrevocable, but I We, above all other countries in Europe, ought to have news for the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin recognise that we should defend our own interests—not, Horwood): treaties and laws have been passed for not as I said, in a hostile manner, but in a realistic and generations but centuries, and there are more treaties down-to-earth manner. We ought to get across the and international relationships that have been reviewed message that there should be, inherent in the proposed and changed than he might have had hot breakfasts. arrangements, a fundamental change in our relationship When those things do not work, there is a good starting with the European Union. We and, if I may say so, the point for reviewing them. That is what we are doing Prime Minister, have an absolute duty to protect the now. national interest that he says he wants to protect; to ensure that there is fundamental reform in the European Mr Hollobone: My hon. Friend thinks that there may Union, which he called for at the Mansion house the well be a move to establish a fiscal union of the 17 eurozone other day, to generate the growth that we need, with our countries. If that is not possible, and if an agreement of 40% of trade with the Union and to guarantee that we the full 17 cannot be achieved, does he think that there are not drawn into an arrangement by which, through a could be a move to establish a fiscal union with a majority block vote, we are consistently outvoted and smaller number of eurozone countries to let some of become completely and utterly controlled by the system. the peripheral economies have some kind of orderly It just does not make sense, and I believe that the system default? will not work. It needs to be pointed out that not only is voting Mr Cash: I think that the crisis is so great that that power naturally going to Germany, with its economic suggestion has to be taken on board seriously. I agree investments—it is doing extremely well out of the system— with the sentiment that lies behind that suggestion. but Germany believes that it can require countries to obey rules. That is a much deeper question, a matter of Mr Jenkin: I follow on the point about foreign direct attitude. We cannot require countries to obey rules just investment that my hon. Friend made to the hon. Member because we prescribe them. That is where I think the for Wolverhampton North East (Emma Reynolds). It is whole philosophy and the attitudes in the Eurocracy interesting that Poland, which one might describe as a and in Germany go wrong. As we have heard, the pre-in—it is not in the euro, but a pre-in nation state in Germans themselves have not obeyed the rules on the the European Union—supports the German line. That stability and growth pact when it suited them not to. An is precisely because it is such a huge beneficiary of inherent dishonesty lies at the heart of the arrangements: public subsidies arriving through the European Union, someone disobeys the rules when it suits them, but largely paid for by the German taxpayer, and because it insists that the rules be obeyed when they can benefit is massively dependent on FDI. As a result it is effectively out of those rules. That cannot be right. already a satellite state of the eurozone. Countries are made up of individuals and individual companies, which have their own ideas as to how they Mr Cash: We must understand that countries need should be democratically governed. Those ideas do not investment. Therefore, in a sense, I am not critical about by any means fit within the rules prescribed from above it. However, I know that the consequences of that are or the conditions that are imposed. The Eurocrats, the reasons behind the problems presented to the Prime Germany and those who go with it on the matter simply Minister tonight. There are dilemmas in the matter. do not understand that the lack of democracy is a I am not just being generous-minded; I understand that fundamental flaw in the entire European project. there is a triangulation, which is a problem. Emma Reynolds: Is the hon. Gentleman not a little I regard the Prime Minister to be, as it were, standing unfair in singling out Germany? Germany is obviously alone at the moment in a quadrangle that is surrounded the largest country to have done quite well out of the by four 40 foot-high walls. On one side, he has the euro, but other eurozone countries in the group of Euro-elite—Angela Merkel and Nicolas Sarkozy—and healthy economies are doing pretty well economically. the Eurocracy. Another wall is the fact that he has to It is slightly unfair of him to single out Germany. reduce the deficit, which he cannot do without growth, and he cannot increase growth without a viable European Mr Cash: I do not think it is. If the hon. Lady Union. Another wall is the Conservative party, not investigates, as I have, German FDI into the other only in Parliament but in the constituencies, and the countries, and then looks at the countries that are country at large. The final wall—I pay my respects to growing, she will see that there is a correlation with the the hon. Member for Cheltenham—is the coalition and amount of money that the Germans have provided. its ideas on the matter, which preclude repatriation I give them credit for doing so on good investment and renegotiation—[Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman projects, but some of them have been bad, as in Greece. may say that, but we had it quite clearly stated. The growth in some of the countries is buttressed and underpinned by German investment. That is the problem. Martin Horwood: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? 181WH European Council8 DECEMBER 2011 European Council 182WH

Mr Cash: I am not going to take an intervention, the relationship between the EU and the UK. As I have because otherwise we will be here all afternoon—we are said already, countries in the non-eurozone will vote for going to be anyway. I simply make the point that the fiscal union, and that will be disastrous, not only with leader of the Liberal Democrats has been quite specific respect to the single market and how it affects the City in saying that there should not be any repatriation. of London but with respect to EU directives. I have Within the electorates of individual countries, decisions looked at those directives, but I do not have time to go can be taken to improve economic performance, develop through all of them now. I simply say that there are small and medium-sized businesses and remove burdens literally hundreds, if not thousands, of directives in on business, but that is not the European method. We other areas of the treaty. For example, I have mentioned may be driven into the formula of the notwithstanding transport, but other areas include communications and arrangements, which was endorsed by the European energy—the list is endless. I have the list; in fact, the Scrutiny Committee report on sovereignty and Parliament, Library has provided it for me. It shows all those areas because if the situation is so critical, we may have to that are decided by qualified majority voting and the override European regulation. However, the European few areas that are decided by unanimity. The fiscal method has locked people, by unanimous decisions, solidarity within the 17—or within the 27, if that is the into a European system that cannot be changed, other way it goes—will use that QMV in all the areas, because than by renegotiation, which is almost impossible, or by that will be the new deal. So we are really in grave peril a notwithstanding arrangement of the kind I have for those reasons. mentioned. Such oppressive regulations and rules are I believe that the creation of another treaty within the based on theoretical assumptions, as with the Lisbon framework of the existing treaties will deliberately target, agenda and the 2020 agenda, which have failed. The for example, the City of London, and that is not just result is no growth. accidental. I remember saying before Mr Nicolas Sarkozy We need to move away from centralisation and was elected—I say this with some respect to him—that integration and back to decision making by Parliaments he might prove to be a very dangerous president of in the United Kingdom and elsewhere on behalf of the France, and from our point of view that has been electorates of every country, and also into an association proved to be the case, much as I think he is looking after of nation states by co-operating. The other alternative French interests. I cannot complain about that; we is not to remain a member of the European Union at cannot try to defend our own interests and then say that all. We are reaching that kind of critical point. We may the French should not look after themselves. The problem not have got there yet, but we are getting to it. is the unreality—the Alice in Wonderland world—in which we are now living, where the French are allowed Effectively, there would have to be a European Free to renegotiate and throw down the gauntlet to us about Trade Association-type arrangement, with countries what they want, but we are supposed to acquiesce and co-operating for free trade, competitiveness and growth, do nothing much about that. That is why this debate is as my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay so important and should be taking place on the Floor (Mr Baron) so rightly said. However, that arrangement of the House. would also have to be based on democratic consent and not exclusively on majority block voting arrangements. The critical voting block against the UK will be That would provide free choice in the marketplace and extremely important. In fact, at the moment it is 213 votes at the ballot box. to 130 between the eurozone 17 and ourselves. If it That is the route to solving the problem, not imposing turns out that there is a eurozone 27, there will still be economic prescriptions and rules that have already been all the economic critical mass and consequently there broken in the past—invariably—and that will not be will still be a voting arrangement against us. For that observed in the future, because we are dealing with reason, we are in serious difficulties. Therefore I say that people and not economic or theoretical machines. That it is an illusion to imagine that that critical mass will not is fundamentally the difference between the British exist. approach, which favours freedom of choice, and the Wealso have to repatriate, although I have said repeatedly eurocratic and—I say this with respect—the Germanic for months now—if not years—that the fundamental approach, which is rule-based and completely different. change in the relationship between the UK and the EU This week’s meeting presents the Prime Minister with is the key question, because when we have got that right a historic moment, given the scale of the crisis, and it is we can also address the question of repatriation. As my essential that he takes the right path. We cannot have right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said in 2005 in the a fiscal union and be within the same treaty; that is a Centre for Policy Studies lecture, it is imperative that we contradiction within itself. It is not a neat Russian doll; repatriate social and employment laws. it is angular and impossible. Actually, it will not fit. A Then there is the question of our current account treaty within a treaty is a house divided against itself deficit with the EU, which is minus £51 billion. That is and because both are built on sand the result of going up by something of the order of £35 billion or £40 billion down this route will be even greater chaos, whether in one year alone, and yet our trading surplus with the there are 17 or 27 countries involved. That is the problem rest of the world is £15 billion. In other words, there is and the European Court of Justice simply will not be nothing wrong with our competitiveness; it is just that able to deal with the overarching contradiction that we cannot be competitive inside the European framework. those two competing arrangements provide. Therefore we must deal with that issue too. Whether it is the eurozone 17 or the eurozone 27 that Effectively, that means that we must re-gear our we are dealing with, the Prime Minister must recognise relationships as a matter of fundamental foreign policy that the intentions expressed by the Germans and the and economic policy. The Foreign Office and the Treasury, French are to pursue a model that is entirely unsuited to through No. 10, must re-gear our relationships with the the UK and that will create a fundamental change in rest of the world: with the Commonwealth countries, 183WH European Council8 DECEMBER 2011 European Council 184WH including India; with the United States, of course, which 4.48 pm is not part of the Commonwealth and which must be addressed in its own right; and with all the other countries, Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): Thank you, including Malaysia, South Africa and other African Mrs Main, for calling me to speak. It is a pleasure to countries, and south-east Asian countries. All those serve under your chairmanship. countries offer huge opportunities and many of them I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich operate on the basis of British commercial law and and North Essex (Mr Jenkin) on securing this debate British contracts, adapted indigenously to provide the this afternoon. I must say, as others have already said, basis of their legal system and constitutional arrangements. that I find it incredible that, at a time when—as we all We can be enormously optimistic about the future if we know—there is very little Government business going go down that route, not abandoning our trade with the through the House of Commons, time could not be EU, but ensuring that we get a proper balance in our found for this debate to take place in the main Chamber. relationship with the EU and putting the emphasis in But we are where we are and we need to deal with the the right place. issue of what the Prime Minister should seek to do at We are told that 3 million jobs are at stake in our this week’s European Council meeting. trading relationships with the EU. Nobody is suggesting At one level, European Union affairs are incredibly that we would not continue to trade with the EU, but complex, with treaties, directives, regulations, protocols, the problem is that the other EU countries have no opt-ins and opt-outs. It is all very confusing and legalistic. growth and our trading generates a deficit. To be fair, it is very difficult for me, as a Member of the This issue is not just a technical question about Schengen, House of Commons with an interest in European matters, or otherwise; we must concentrate on the bigger landscape, to follow the twists and turns of affairs in the European which is the failure of the European project. It is also Union, so how much more difficult must it be for voters about our democracy and the individual electors who outside this House in their day-to-day lives? I say that voted us into Parliament on the clear understanding without wanting to sound patronising. Politically, however, that we would protect their interests. That is why a veto the issue is very simple: do we, as a country, want is necessary unless a renegotiation of our fundamental to continue with our present relationship with the relationship with the EU, along the lines that I have European Union? Personally, I say, “No, we don’t,” described, is achieved, as well as the protection of our and I believe that the overwhelming majority of the democratic interests and the rights of our constituents. British people would also answer, “No,” to that question. That is also why a referendum is required. The idea This weekend’s European Council meeting presents a being peddled that a referendum is not required—leaving tremendous opportunity to start to rebalance the aside the issue of timing—because of the coalition competences and powers between the European Union agreement is wholly misleading. The coalition agreement and this country. is not law, and even section 4 of the European Union Mention has been made of the danger of Europe Act 2011, which I sought to remove from the original developing into two groups, but we already have two Bill by an amendment that was rejected by the Government, groups. There are the countries in the eurozone and the is not definitive in excluding a referendum where a new ones that have not adopted the euro. We already have, if treaty or series of legal devices that have been put you like, a two-speed Europe, but I do not like to use together has the effect of merely appearing to make that term, because it implies that countries that are provision for member states other than the UK. That is going more slowly will sooner or later finish up in the a matter of legal interpretation and we are by no means same place as the ones going somewhat faster. It is finished with it; indeed, I have a Bill coming forward in right, however, to think of a two-tier Europe, with one January that has been signed up to by six Chairmen of Europe that is the eurozone, tied up in red tape and Select Committees and that will make that clear. But the regulation, and looking only inwards, at how it can important thing is that we engage in this debate. grasp ever more power. That is what we are seeing from The assumption that is being made at the moment—that the eurozone countries this weekend, and it is what we we are unable to have a referendum because of section 4 have already seen in the pre-meeting between France of the 2011 Act—is wholly misleading. The constitutional and Germany. They do not see the way forward as position for a referendum, let alone the political and having less regulation, less bureaucracy and more freedom economic situation, is not clear-cut by any means, and it for nation states; they want to move faster towards the cannot override the fundamental principle, as set out in European Union’s declared aim of ever closer union. 1975 when a referendum was conducted, because the They see this as a great means of speeding up the renegotiations in this instance involve a fundamental project and bringing everyone together more quickly, so change in the overall relationship between the UK and that Brussels will have yet more control over the member the EU. A referendum is required, quite simply because states in the eurozone. the current proposals vitally affect the people of the We must be honest with our European neighbours. UK. We must have a referendum—it is a matter of The whole structure of the European Union is being principle, honour and trust. looked at, so there is no better time for us to sit down with our European neighbours and say, “Right. Great. Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. Before I call No problem. If you want to get on with ever closer Mr David Nuttall to speak, I will point out that there union, that’s fine. You crack on with it but, frankly, we are three other Members who have attended the debate don’t want to go there. We prefer another path, from and who would also like to speak. I will be calling for where we can look to the rest of the world. We want our winding-up speeches from about 5.10 pm. I call Mr David companies to be able to compete in a global marketplace, Nuttall to speak, and there are three other colleagues not just arguing within Europe and trying to get by with who may wish to catch my eye after him. all the rules and regulations that are enforced by Brussels.” 185WH European Council8 DECEMBER 2011 European Council 186WH

[Mr David Nuttall] If what is suggested by Merkel and Sarkozy is not the co-ordination of economic policy, I do not know what There is no better time than now to put our cards on the is so, surely, that Government explanatory note gives us table and say what we want back. We could all have our our right to demand a referendum on the outcome of own ideas, perhaps a shopping list of individual opt-outs, the negotiations. or the excellent idea presented in his opening speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North 4.59 pm Essex that what we need, and what I think the vast Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): It is a pleasure to majority of the British people would expect, to be serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Main. I congratulate brought back from this European Council meeting is an my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North opt-out, to the extent that in the future this country Essex (Mr Jenkin) on securing this debate. ought to be able to say, “Thanks very much for this but, frankly, it’s not suitable for the UK.” That should be I confess that I was for a long time a great fan of retrospective as well as prospective. We should be given the European Union. I was very pro-Europe and back the right to look through the European legislation internationalist, as indeed I still am, but the Lisbon that has already been enforced and determine what is treaty caused me to look closely at the nature of the not suitable for this country. European Union. I do not have to find my own words for what I discovered the European Union to be, because One would think that this would be quite a simple I can quote, and I think I have done before, what the idea, but because Germany and France are wedded to Prime Minister said in Prague in 2007, according to the ideal of ever closer union enshrined in the founding the BBC: treaty, the very idea that a member state could start “It is the last gasp of an outdated ideology, a philosophy that repatriating powers is anathema to those who believe in has no place in our new world of freedom, a world which the European Union project and in ever closer union. It demands that we fight this bureaucratic over-reach and lead is more than an economic union to them; they want not Europe into the hope and potential of a new, post-bureaucratic just a single currency but an economic and political age.” union, with the development of what will become, Hon. Friends might have heard me use the last part of effectively, the united states of Europe. I believe that the that quotation in my question to the Prime Minister vast majority of the British people do not want that. yesterday. I agree fully with what he said in 2007, but I entirely respect the honourable position that has been have we not been dropped into an awful pickle? adopted for many years, particularly by our friends in I want to say something about the remorseless logic the Liberal Democrat party. That may well be why the of customs union to complement what the Chancellor party gets only 10% of the vote in opinion polls—I do has said about the remorseless logic of monetary union. not know—but it is nevertheless an honourable position. It seems to me that the founders of the European Union It is a small minority of the British people who think in were absolutely certain that they wanted peace and that way, but it is an honourable position, and that is prosperity, so they set up a customs union and a free fine. It is great in a democracy that we have that other trade area between nation states. However, the problem position, but I think that the vast majority of the was that those nation states were interventionist. British people want a much looser arrangement of our position within the European Union, and what better The argument runs as follows: economic intervention time to start than now? This weekend is the time to start requires a territorial monopoly on the use of force. If renegotiating our position. capital and labour are not to move as a result of such interventionism not meeting its stated aims, that promotes I know that other speakers want to get in, but in my protectionism and capital controls. In turn, that promotes final couple of minutes let me deal with the question of autarchy as nation states struggle to provide everything a referendum. My hon. Friend the Member for South for themselves in the face of their own barriers, which Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom), who is not in then promotes expanding borders. In the European her place, said that she thought that the Prime Minister Union, we find a customs union with trade barriers had a strong hand. I agree that he does, because if around it and a tendency to keep trying to expand. The others wanted us to not use our veto he could say, ultimate outcome of that direction of travel is said to be “Well, okay, I won’t use the veto provided I can have militarism. I do not claim originality for that argument; this, this, this and this.” However, how much stronger a it is set out in great detail in a book called “Omnipotent hand would our Prime Minister have if this country had Government: The Rise of the Total State and Total held a referendum of the sort we discussed on 24 October? War” by a classical liberal political economist, Ludwig If such a referendum had already been held, the Prime von Mises. He was an interesting man, an Austro- Minister of this country could have gone to Europe and Hungarian Jew who predicted the collapse of the said, “Look, I have the backing of the British people in Deutschmark and the rise of political radicalism and a referendum.” then had to flee the Nazis. There has been much talk this afternoon about whether I am very interested in that argument. It is the inevitable in view of the fact that we have the European Union direction of travel of an interventionist customs union. Act 2011 it is right that there should be a referendum. The crux of the matter is that if the nations of Europe I draw Members’ attention to paragraph 48 of the will not abandon their policies of economic interventionism, explanatory notes to what was then the European Union there are only two directions of travel: either a return to Bill: nation states, fragmentation, economic nationalism and “a referendum would be required before the UK can approve all the frictions and difficulties that that will cause, as the extension of any competence of the EU relating to: (i) the well as a tendency to promote militarism, which was the coordination of economic and employment policies; or (ii) the EU’s worst fear of the founders of the European Union, or, common foreign and security policy.” on the other hand, strict centralisation, a territorial 187WH European Council8 DECEMBER 2011 European Council 188WH monopoly on the use of force and the raising of economic If Germany will not accept that, the only way that nationalism to the level of the customs union. That, in peripheral Europe can be priced back into competitiveness my view, is what the European Union has done. It is a with Germany is by a break-up of the euro. I believe terrible tragedy. While seeking to defeat economic that it would be better for that to happen sooner rather nationalism, it has raised it to such a level that the than later. It is 18 months since we saw that Greece continent is suffering what appears to be an imminent could not pay its debts, yet it has been patched up, and currency collapse. we now risk throwing good money after bad to keep In my view, everything is at stake this weekend. things going, when it is the euro that is preventing I encourage the Prime Minister to have the courage to growth in Europe. believe what he said in 2007 in Prague, which was that I do not dispute that a break-up of the euro will be the European Union is damaging in the short term, but within two or three “the last gasp of an outdated ideology, a philosophy that has no years, I believe that growth within Europe will be stronger place in our new world of freedom.” after a return to national currencies than if we try to I hope that the Prime Minister and my right hon. keep the euro going. My hon. Friend the Member for Friend the Minister for Europe (Mr Lidington) can lead Stone (Mr Cash) discussed Germany repatriating its Europe into the hope and potential of a post-bureaucratic profits. The individual German company can repatriate age. profits, but Germany as a whole cannot, because Germany has used the euro as the latest manifestation of a system—it started with Bretton Woods, then the snake, 5.3 pm then the exchange rate mechanism—to keep its currency Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con): I pay artificially low, so that it exports vastly more than it tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and imports. As a result, Germany must recycle its assets North Essex (Mr Jenkin), who is not currently in his into sub-prime US mortgages or Greek Government seat. I first met him 18 years ago as a UK economist for debt. Only after Germany stops depressing its currency Warburgs, where we argued for Britain staying out of through that system will we come back into balance, the euro. Warburgs invited my hon. Friend, who was and countries such as Greece, Portugal, Spain and Italy then a new MP, to address a lunch of clients. He will be able once more to compete with Germany. We explained that we would be better off outside the euro. should focus on that during the summit. When a client asked, “But wouldn’t that push up gilt The Prime Minister is going to the summit, and we yields, and wouldn’t there be a risk premium for being will see what powers, if any, he seeks to bring back, but out of the euro?”, he said, “No. There would be more it is clear that there has been a fundamental change in risk inside the euro. If we stayed out of the euro, in due the UK-EU relationship. Page 63 of the Liberal Democrat course, gilt yields would fall below those of German manifesto said that in such circumstances, there should bunds.” That has now happened, and I pay tribute to be a referendum of the British people to decide whether him for his perspicacity on that issue. we should stay in on those terms or whether, as I would My hon. Friend quoted from a TaxPayers Alliance like, we should again be an independent country trading piece that I found very helpful. It refers to a paper from with Europe but governing ourselves. 2004, which says that we should “Change our relationship with the EU so that crucial powers Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): I have a correction. are brought back” I will call the Opposition Front-Bench spokesperson at and 5.12 pm. “take back powers over trade, work and civil rights.” 5.7 pm It states that the British people believe that: “Giving away power in the hope of influencing the EU has Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): I believe that been tried for decades and the EU just gets more power over my constituents in Kettering see this weekend’s summit British life and uses it badly. We should be taking back power, not as a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to renegotiate Britain’s handing more over.” relationship with the European Union. I also believe Who was the author? My right hon. Friend the that they want me to state that they want their say in the Member for Witney (Mr Cameron). Yet, going into the future of our country’s relationship with the European summit this weekend, we now hear that we can ask for Union through a referendum at the ballot box. It would only so much back—perhaps not much at all—because be a huge credit to the Conservative party if we were to our priority must be to save the euro. Then we are told, go to the country on any deal that the Prime Minister rather contradictorily, that we cannot ask for too much negotiates this weekend. It would expose the myths that back, because if we do, they will do it as 17 rather than we are being told by the Liberal Democrats about how 27. It cannot be both. In the short term, the only in touch they are with popular opinion and would institution that can keep the euro ticking over—I fear it reveal once again the flaws in their manifesto. They will be no more than that—is the European Central seem increasingly to find ways to deny people a referendum Bank, by printing money and buying Italian and Spanish on issues on which they promised them a vote. bonds. Everything else is mood music for German My constituents in Kettering want us to be part of a public opinion, but what about our public opinion? common market. They want a free trade relationship If the euro is to continue, the fundamental issue is with Europe and, increasingly, with the rest of the competitiveness. Within the euro, the only way to deal world, but the EU’s share of world output is falling year with Germany’s overvaluation on competitiveness—it by year. It was 30% of world trade in 1980, and it will be is 30% or 40% better than Italy or Spain, perhaps even 15% by 2020. Periodically, we all cut ourselves up about more compared with Greece—is to have a significant how important Europe is to this country, but we are and sustained period of inflation within Germany. increasingly tying ourselves to an economic bloc that is 189WH European Council8 DECEMBER 2011 European Council 190WH

[Mr Philip Hollobone] I respectfully beg to differ with those hon. Members who have said that the Prime Minister has a strong going south, not north. The future of our great trading hand in the negotiations. Last Friday, the Prime Minister nation lies with the emerging economies such as Brazil, was relegated to a quick sandwich lunch with President India and China, many of which are Commonwealth Sarkozy in Paris, without the inclusion of even a press countries with which we have deep and close relationships conference in the programme. The French press hardly that could be deepened ever further. noticed that he was there. Given that we are one of the On what the Prime Minister should be demanding largest economies in the European Union and used to back from the EU this weekend, we could not have a be at the heart of its decision-making, it is incredible debate on the European Union chaired by you, Mrs Main, just how isolated this Government have made the UK. without mentioning the habitual residency test. The Today’s New York Times leads with an article that says Secretary of State for Work and Pensions has said that that the UK is merely a “bystander” at this European the European Union is trying to overturn the United Union summit. That is not in the national interest. Kingdom’s rules on benefits to benefit tourists. This The past few days have served to remind us how the country refuses to give them benefits if they do not pass Conservative party likes to debate the European Union the habitual residency test, yet the European institutions and of—perhaps this is a point of nostalgia for some—the are trying to overturn that regulation at a cost, according long, tortuous and, in some cases, destructive history of to the Government’s own figures, of between £2.5 billion the division in the Conservative party on the EU. It is and £5 billion every year. That is one thing to demand worth remembering the context of the Prime Minister’s back from Europe. current position and the labyrinthine trajectory he took My constituents would also like the Prime Minister to get there. In his bid to secure his party’s leadership to demand back control over our borders once again, while in opposition, he promised to withdraw his MEPs because they are fed up with the mass immigration from from the centre-right European People’s party, but they the European Union on to our shores. We want our still sit in the European Parliament with the same fishing grounds back and our agriculture policy back. group, which the Deputy Prime Minister has called Above all, we do not want to spend more and more “nutters, anti-Semites, people who deny climate change exists and each year on our membership subscription. In the last homophobes”. five years of the previous Labour Government, the After becoming the then leader of the Opposition, the membership subscription was some £19 billion. At the Prime Minister told his party to stop “banging on end of this coalition Government’s five years—should about Europe”, because he hoped that the issue could they last that long—it will be £41 billion. The cost of be put to one side and ignored. How wrong he was. our membership has doubled as the red tape coming I say to this Government that, for a year, they ignored out of Brussels increasingly strangles the ability of the impending crisis in the eurozone. It was only recently British business to create the wealth that pays for our that they stopped being asleep at the wheel and woke up subscription in the first place. to the seriousness of the situation. Six weeks ago, we This is a wonderful opportunity for our country. saw the unedifying spectacle of nearly half of Conservative I hope that the Prime Minister has the courage to seize Back Benchers defying the Prime Minister’s three-line this golden opportunity to restate Britain’s relationship Whip and voting for a referendum on our membership with the European Union and to create a brighter of the European Union. During that same debate six relationship not only for the EU, but for Britain outside it. weeks ago, the Prime Minister said that he wanted to repatriate powers from the European Union. He reiterated 5.11 pm that demand last month at the lord mayor’s banquet and declared himself a sceptic who wanted a European Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab): Union that was a network, not a bloc, while in the same It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, breath extolling the benefits of our membership and Mrs Main, and I congratulate the hon. Member for demanding a say at the top table. Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin). We might not agree on all the detail in relation to this debate, but I agree with him that the seriousness of the situation calls Mr Baron: It is rich for the hon. Lady to criticise the for time in this Chamber to discuss the European summit. Prime Minister, because when her party was in government, The pre-summit dinner is only a couple of hours away, it not only sacrificed the rebate that had been negotiated, but it would also have been useful if the Prime Minister but oversaw the transfer of swathes of power to Brussels. had been invited to last night’s dinner organised by the The list of measures that she is highlighting runs very centre-right European People’s party, at which Chancellor shallow with those who remember when her party was Merkel, President Sarkozy, President Barroso and many in government. other centre-right leaders—unfortunately, most European Union countries have centre-right Governments—were Emma Reynolds: I say to the hon. Gentleman that, present. Unlike his centre-right equivalents, however, when my party was in government, we were not isolated the Prime Minister was not invited, which is a shame. in the European Union. The previous two Prime Ministers had a good relationship with both the French President Mr Jenkin: May I point out that if we had a Labour and the German Chancellor, and such a relationship is Prime Minister, he would not have been invited either? very important to our national interest.

Emma Reynolds: The hon. Gentleman makes a valid Martin Horwood: Will the hon. Lady therefore point. When we were in government in 1999, 11 out of congratulate the Under-Secretary of State for Business, 15 Governments were on the centre-left and we attended Innovation and Skills, my hon. Friend the Member for such meetings, which proved very useful indeed. Kingston and Surbiton (Mr Davey) on his co-operative 191WH European Council8 DECEMBER 2011 European Council 192WH approach to lifting onerous accounting rules for the The fact that the Prime Minister is leading a divided smallest businesses? Her Government did not manage party while negotiating on Europe is very much weakening to achieve that co-operative approach. his hand. By facing two ways, the Prime Minister’s position and the negotiating position of our Government Emma Reynolds: I agree that a co-operative approach are both confused and confusing. It is no wonder that is needed and that we need to constructively engage our European partners are not entirely sure where the with our European partners. When you go to a European Prime Minister stands. It is clearly not in our national summit, you get what you want not by banging on the interest to have that weak voice and to stand on the table, but by the power of your ideas and the strength of sidelines. Splendid isolation is really not that splendid. your alliances. [Interruption.] Government Members The fact that we are in the slow lane of a two-speed may laugh, but my right hon. Friends the Members Europe might chime well to the Eurosceptic ear, but, for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) and for essentially, it could mean that other member states will Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling) showed at the take decisions that affect us without our being at the London G20 summit in 2009 just what you can achieve table. by the power of your ideas and the strength of your I say to the hon. Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) alliances. that it is wrong to assume that eurozone members all agree on which direction they want to take regarding Mr Jenkin rose— better economic co-ordination, because the French Gaullois tradition is an intergovernmental one that is very hostile Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. Before the hon. and suspicious of supranational institutions. There are Gentleman speaks, may I ask the hon. Lady to address disagreements within the eurozone countries. We should the debate through the Chair? I have never been to an not just assume that France and Germany agree on EU summit and have certainly never given away any these issues. powers. If the eurozone crisis continues to deepen, it will have Mr Jenkin: I remind the hon. Lady that, after the serious implications for jobs, businesses and banks in collapse of the European constitution, Tony Blair went the UK. Our economy is closely entwined with the to the European Parliament and said that the trumpets other 26 members of the European Union, and more were outside the walls of Jericho and asked whether than half our trade goes to those countries. Our banks anybody was listening. Nobody was listening and we are also extensively linked and exposed to eurozone got the Lisbon treaty instead. There is no evidence that banks, so it is clearly in the national interest for a any Labour Prime Minister had any influence over the solution to be found at the summit. Labour Members general direction of the European Union any more want the Government to push for a greater and more than we do now. decisive role for the European Central Bank and a credible crisis fund with, of course, built-in conditionality. Emma Reynolds: I disagree entirely. When our party The so-called six-pack package goes a long way to was in government, we were at the centre of European creating credible rules and procedures to enforce those decision-making, and the truth is that we are not any rules, but it is clear that a solution must also be found to more. tackle the balance of payments and trade imbalances, which several hon. Members have mentioned, between Six weeks ago the Prime Minister demanded repatriation the different eurozone member states. It is also very of powers, yet yesterday, in a 1,000-word article in The important to enhance the competitiveness of the weaker Times, in which he set out his position for the European economies. summit, he did not mention repatriation once. We agree that the priority should be given to providing a lasting In winding up, I would like quickly to ask the Minister solution to the eurozone crisis, because we think it is in a couple of questions. Why did the Prime Minister the national interest, but we also say that Britain should promise repatriation of powers six weeks ago and then have a strong voice in these negotiations. Unfortunately, suddenly drop those demands yesterday? What resources because the Prime Minister has tried to face two ways in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office were given to on the issue—on the one hand placating his Eurosceptic working through options on repatriation, or was that Back Benchers and some members of his Cabinet, and, always a matter of rhetoric rather than something really on the other, trying to have a realistic negotiating position considered in the corridors of King Charles street? Why with our European partners—the risk is that he will not have the Government been so complacent about the deliver on either of those objectives. Whereas many emergence of a two-speed or multi-speed Europe, and Conservative Back Benchers demand repatriation, a what specific reassurances are the Government asking split has emerged, not only in the coalition, but in the for with regard to the City and the single market? Are Conservative party, over the past few days. the Government seeking, for example, an emergency brake to be extended to the area of financial services? Kate Hoey: Will my hon. Friend give way? Finally, are the Government hopeful of a fairly rapid treaty change, and what are the risks to the UK and the Emma Reynolds: I will not, because I do not have rest of the EU of a prolonged process of treaty change much time. The Deputy Prime Minister has said that and ratification? attempting repatriation would be economic suicide, and In conclusion, we want to see the eurozone succeed, the Mayor of London and two Cabinet members—the because it is clearly in the national interest that a Secretaries of State for Work and Pensions and for solution is reached. It is not in the national interest to Northern Ireland—say that the treaty change would engage in “I told you so” arguments or Schadenfreude, inevitably lead to a referendum, whereas the rest of the nor is it in the national interest for the governing party Government seem to be saying something quite different. and the coalition to be so divided on this issue. 193WH European Council8 DECEMBER 2011 European Council 194WH

[Emma Reynolds] and one can measure the concern of the United States Government by the fact that the Treasury Secretary, Our European partners are left scratching their heads Mr Geithner, was dispatched on rapid visits to Paris about what the Government’s position really is. The and Berlin earlier this week. Prime Minister should never have promised repatriation The hon. Member for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins) of powers, if it was never his intention to deliver on that talked about wanting an orderly deconstruction of the promise. His promise has entrenched and deepened eurozone, which was far too sanguine. He slightly skated divisions in his party, as we saw today and yesterday at over the fact that in every conversation I have had with Prime Minister’s questions. Ministers of any of the 17 Governments of the eurozone, That is no way to negotiate with our European partners. they have said that they are committed to keeping the Our country demands and deserves better leadership, eurozone project going. In addition, as far as one can and only then will the Government be in a position to tell from opinion research, the populations of those effectively pursue the national interest and start being countries still consider the euro to be an essential part part of the solution rather than part of the problem. of the national interest of their country. Hon. Members Division, isolation and weakness are, in fact, a betrayal may think that those views are misplaced, but they are of the national interest. My concern is that the Prime the views of the countries that have chosen to join the Minister will not be able to deliver on even the modest euro, and, ultimately, we have to respect their sovereign demands that he has set out because of his isolation. decision. What I am clear about is that the instability in the 5.24 pm eurozone is already having what the Chancellor has described as a “chilling effect” on the United Kingdom’s The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): I economy, and a collapse of the eurozone or a prolonged congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich recession in the eurozone as a result of financial instability and North Essex (Mr Jenkin) on securing the debate. persisting will be thoroughly bad news for jobs and for While the debate was going on, I was thinking that he hopes of economic growth in our country. It is not only and I have known each other for more than 30 years. important but urgent to try to sort out the problems of Although it is fair to say that we have not always the eurozone. As a number of hon. Members have said, managed to agree on political subjects, I have never had many of us argued from the start that there were flaws any doubt whatsoever about his integrity or his patriotism. in the way that the euro had been designed and that it I pay tribute to him for the way he put his case today. seemed illogical to have a currency union and a single We are, indeed, in the rather unusual position of monetary policy and interest rate without some common debating a meeting that is about to start and that, to agreements and structures in place to govern wider judge from what President Van Rompuy said on Monday, economic and, in particular, fiscal policy. may well go on for many hours after dinner tonight and We can argue that those problems should have been into tomorrow morning. I therefore need to preface tackled at the start and that the warning signals should anything I say with the caveat that events may overtake have been read when countries breached the stability us. I will also be quite straight with hon. Members and and growth pact and no action was taken, but we are disappoint the hon. Member for Wolverhampton North where we are. I certainly believe that there is a sense of East (Emma Reynolds) by saying that I am not going to real urgency and of peril among serious-minded leaders go into detail about the Prime Minister’s negotiating of other eurozone countries. They are now speaking in position. The only people who would benefit—indeed, terms of an economic catastrophe that will spread who would be delighted—by a full disclosure of the much more widely than the single currency area if this Prime Minister’s negotiating tactics would be the instability is not resolved, and resolved swiftly. Governments of other countries represented around the table, who might not necessarily share identical Mr Baron: My right hon. Friend is of course right. In negotiating objectives to us. the history of the world, there has not been a monetary I want to try to respond at least to the broad questions union that has worked that has not also had to include raised during this debate. I certainly agree with everybody fiscal union. It is fundamentally flawed. What is more who has said that the British Government have a duty important now is not history but the future. I suggest to to be vigilant and to defend vigorously the national my right hon. Friend that perhaps the one reason interests of the British people. As the Prime Minister eurozone leaders are so passionate about the euro is made very clear yesterday, we will support the objective that it is part of a political project for political union, of securing fiscal discipline in the eurozone, but not at and that they are therefore overegging the economic the expense of either our industries or our independence. consequences. Where history can also help us is to The crisis in the eurozone is forcing the European remind us that since 1945, as I have highlighted—there Union and the eurozone 17 in particular to confront has been no riposte from the Minister on this point—we fundamental choices. It matters hugely to the United have had 80 instances in which countries have left Kingdom that the eurozone is successful in sorting out currency unions. The vast majority have benefited in its problems. growth terms from having left a currency union. I suggest One point on which I agreed with the hon. Member to the Minister that he should think carefully. Perhaps for Wolverhampton North East was the interconnection the motive of these eurozone leaders is that they see the between this country’s economy and the economies euro as a weapon that is crucial to political union. around the wider Europe. Many of the statistics are well known. The eurozone accounts for roughly 40% of Mr Lidington: My hon. Friend makes a perfectly United Kingdom trade, and its stability matters globally. sensible point about the fact that other countries have Around 15% of United States trade is with the eurozone departed currency unions since the second world war. 195WH European Council8 DECEMBER 2011 European Council 196WH

It is fair to say that we have not had such a break-up of unanimity and, while the content of an intergovernmental a currency union on this kind of scale, with economies treaty at 17 is a matter for the 17 signatories, it cannot that are so closely integrated, and in an age when cut across the provisions of the existing EU treaties, nor information and capital can be moved rapidly, not just can it seek to use the EU institutions without the in national jurisdictions but globally, at the click of a specific agreement of all the EU 27. computer mouse. Studies that I have seen say that it would be much, much more damaging and risky for the Mr Cash: My right hon. Friend, I am sure, recognises eurozone to break up, particularly if it broke up chaotically, the extreme danger of creating a treaty within a treaty. than it was for some of those other currency separations, I am sure he realises that that would be a house divided such as those of the Czech Republic and Slovakia. against itself, and catastrophic for our democratic system. Incidentally, Slovakia, having broken with the Czech Republic, then decided to enter the eurozone and has engaged in some challenging austerity and competitiveness Mr Lidington: As I said earlier, this is not without measures in order to try to make a success of that precedent. I am not saying that this will happen, but commitment. it is an option that has been floated quite openly by a number of European leaders as a possible way forward. Where I would agree with my hon. Friend is that this Just as there is a negotiation within the eurozone about has been seen, by those who took part, as a political the measures and mechanisms to enforce discipline, so project as well as an economic project. However, to an there is a negotiation with us and fellow non-euro extent that we sometimes do not appreciate in this countries. In the course of these negotiations, whichever country, those political ambitions have a much greater option is followed we will make sure that our interests resonance among the wider electorates in many countries are protected. Of course, there is another option, which on the continent of Europe than they do here. That is is to use the existing frameworks and treaties. That due to all kinds of historical reasons with which we option is still on the table. are fairly familiar. I want to emphasise that the prime objective of the summit ought to be to sort out the In the debate, there has been extensive discussion of issues that remain unresolved from the eurozone meetings the repatriation of powers and a referendum. We need of 21 July and 26 October. Whether we talk about the to remind ourselves that this is the first Government in European financial stability facility, bank recapitalisation British history to have introduced a legislative guarantee or the detail of the Greek write-down, there is detail of a referendum. The European Union Act 2011 ensures that has yet to be finalised, and that needs to be addressed that there is now a legal requirement on any Government rapidly. So, too, does the need for competitiveness, not to hold a referendum before any agreement on treaty only in the peripheral eurozone economies but in the change that transfers competence or powers from the global context of the European Union as a whole. It UK to the EU. I have never pretended that the Act is a needs to be embraced as a priority by every single one panacea. It does not address the issue of repatriation of of the member states and the European institutions. If I powers and that was not its purpose. It is a guarantee. have time, I will come on to that. There is some evidence There has been some suggestion from hon. Members that that challenge is starting to be recognised and that the UK should hold a referendum on any changes addressed. the eurozone countries may choose to make. I want to I accept too—I will make this point very briefly—that reiterate the point the Prime Minister has made on this if eurozone countries choose to push forward with issue. What the eurozone countries may or may not do greater economic integration, there will be a democratic is have arrangements between themselves that pool challenge as well. How are economic policies to be some of their sovereignty. To say that we have to have a made democratically accountable? I accept that that is a referendum in Britain about something that other countries challenge for those countries. It is clearly for them, as are going ahead with anyway would not only be a rather independent sovereign countries, to decide how they odd approach for us to take, but it would probably individually address that. mean that those countries would choose to go ahead in any case but using purely intergovernmental means, Many hon. Members raised the issue of possible however messy and unsatisfactory from their point of treaty change, and the safeguards that the United Kingdom view such an alternative might be. That may well yet would require should the eurozone follow that path. Let happen, but holding a referendum on such a treaty me set out the options in broad terms. One way to would not bring back a single power. introduce stronger rules for the eurozone, which of course would not apply to the UK, would be a change Personally, I could draw up a list of powers—we had in the treaty governing all 27 members of the European the list in the Conservative manifesto at the previous Union. That would be the most comprehensive way to election—that I think are better decided nationally than provide tough sanctions to ensure that eurozone countries by the EU. However, we have to be ruthlessly focused on stick to their own rules on debt. A second option would what is most important to our national interest and, at be to allow the 17 countries of the eurozone to create a this time, in particular to our national economy. That is separate intergovernmental treaty of their own. That why our priority in the negotiations is safeguards to has happened before, with the Schengen agreement on keep the single market fair and open for our most open borders and with the European stability mechanism. crucial industries, including financial services, to which The 17 are free to do that again. The likelihood, however, my hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire is that the signatories to such a treaty would want to (Andrea Leadsom) made reference. draw on the EU institutions that belong to all 27 member states to monitor and enforce compliance with any new Kate Hoey: Is the right hon. Gentleman saying that rules on tighter budget discipline. In both instances, we none of the options that he has mentioned and that would have the power of veto. Treaty change at 27 requires might happen is making any real change to our relationship 197WH European Council8 DECEMBER 2011 European Council 198WH

[Kate Hoey] EU level were to cost jobs and growth—that is on the basis of the Commission’s own impact assessment—we with the European Union? Surely the changes are would veto it. If others wanted to go ahead, foolishly, fundamental and require the will and support of the on the basis of an enhanced co-operation measure, that British people in a referendum. would be a matter for them. It is clear that the next few days will be important for Mr Lidington: No. We do not know the shape let Europe. We head into the summit with a clear objective. alone the detail of any agreement that might be reached Yes, we support the eurozone in sorting out its problems, over the next 24 hours or longer. The risk alluded to by but we will not sign up to fiscal discipline in the eurozone a number of my hon. Friends, which perhaps lies behind without safeguards and certainly not at the expense of the hon. Lady’s intervention, is that of caucusing. The our industries or our independence. risk is that the greater economic integration of the 17, and of more countries over time as other member states 5.43 pm join the euro, as is still their intention, will lead to caucusing on single market measures, so that the UK Mr Jenkin: I am most grateful, Mrs Main, for the would in effect be presented with a “take it or leave it” opportunity to make a few remarks in the last couple of option. That is certainly a theoretical risk and I do not minutes available. My right hon. Friend the Minister for want to pretend otherwise. The political reality, however, Europe is extremely generous, as always, in letting me is, first, that that is not how the eurozone countries have reciprocate. No one doubts the sincerity of his commitment operated up till now. We were given similar warnings to doing the right thing for his country as well as for the when the United Kingdom took the decision to stay party and the coalition. I also thank my right hon. outside the euro when it was created, but those dire Friend the Member for New Forest West (Mr Swayne), warnings have not been justified by the events of the who has patiently sat through the debate on behalf of years since. the Prime Minister, whose gesture we appreciate. Secondly, when I talk to Ministers from the other May I be brutally frank? I hear the Government still 26 member states, I find that neither the eurozone in denial about the significance of what will happen. We 17 nor the euro-out 10 are cohesive or monolithic blocs. will have a treaty of the 27 that will create a massive Talking to Dutch, German—in particular—Finnish, shift in the focus of power to the 17. The EU institutions Austrian or Irish Ministers, one finds that they all very will be concentrating on that and we will become peripheral, much want the United Kingdom, with its championship so we need a fundamental change in our relationship of free and open markets and an outward-looking with the European Union to compensate for that change, European Union, to be centrally involved in taking not least because our existing terms of membership are decisions. There is not that drive towards a caucus that already very damaging to this country’s competitiveness, a number of my hon. Friend fear. growth and job creation. At the summit, the United Kingdom should seek an agreement in principle—so Mark Reckless: Will the Minister give way? that it does not hold the summit up—that renegotiation has to be on the table. If the Government cannot even Mr Lidington: I will not, I am sorry. I want to leave obtain that at such a moment, they are not building a some time to my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich position from which to negotiate in future. and North Essex, so I must conclude my remarks As for a referendum guarantee that does not actually shortly. guarantee a referendum, I have made my point about I will write to those hon. Friends who have mentioned that Act of Parliament: it is not sufficient because it particular subjects, such as my hon. Friend the Member does not address our circumstances. The treaty change for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) who spoke about is without doubt significant and, if the Government energy. I assure my hon. Friend the Member for South want the British people to consent to it, they must Northamptonshire that we completely recognise the inevitably concede a referendum or it will never be importance of financial services. A thriving City of ratified. London is an asset not only to the United Kingdom but to the European Union as a whole. We should go out 5.45 pm and sell that case loudly and confidently. We have made Sitting adjourned without Question put (Standing Order it clear that, if a financial transactions tax introduced at No. 10(11)). 35WS Written Ministerial Statements8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 36WS

agreements which enable cities to negotiate the devolution Written Ministerial of specific powers, resources and responsibilities required to meet locally-determined economic and social objectives. Statements The Government are committed to the decisive action required to restore confidence in our economy. This, Thursday 8 December 2011 above all, rests on the principle that sustained recovery and long-term prosperity can only be achieved through private sector growth. This will not occur in the abstract, BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS but through the success of real businesses in real places— especially our cities which, together with their wider Innovation and Research Strategy commuting areas, account for 74% of England’s population and 78% of English jobs. The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David To achieve their full potential, our urban communities Willetts): The UK has a global reputation for innovation must be empowered to act in support of their local and research and our future prosperity rests on our economies. It is widely recognised that, compared to ability to continue to compete in a global economy. their European counterparts, English cities have less Innovation and research is a key priority for this influence over the key decisions that affect their Government, and the Secretary of State and I are today competitiveness in national and international markets. publishing the Government’s “Innovation and Research Because power and influence over relevant policy making Strategy for Growth” which seeks to build on our areas has been so heavily skewed towards Whitehall and existing strengths. A copy of the strategy is being placed Westminster, civic leaders have been forced to look in the House Library. upwards to central Government to resolve problems, Our universities, research councils and businesses are rather than through direct engagement with existing national assets that form the foundation of the UK’s and potential sources of private and voluntary sector future competitiveness. However, if we are to realise our investment and innovation. vision for the UK’s future we need to strengthen our innovative capability and encourage further investment We are therefore committed to revitalising the role of in innovation. city leadership through a radical shift in power, allowing The Government have already made clear our cities to take on certain responsibilities and resources commitment to the UK knowledge base by maintaining from Government wherever they can make the case that the annual £4.6 billion budget for science and research this would improve the efficiency and outcomes of programmes with £150 million each year supporting public policy. university-business interaction. Going further, we intend The document sets out a series of indicative options to maximise the impact of our research base on economic for the transfers of control that could be considered as growth and have announced £610 million to science part of each deal making process. This list is not intended capital investment projects since January 2011. as a statement of policy or as an automatic entitlement We will improve incentives for companies to innovate, for all cities, it is neither prescriptive nor exhaustive. especially small and medium-sized enterprises. In addition Rather, the specifics of each city deal negotiation will be to our successful changes to the SME research and determined by city-led initiative and its conclusion development tax credit we will invest an additional dependent on the strength of the case presented. From £75 million to support small business innovation including the Government side, we will look for a clear economic additional funding for Smart grants that support SME rationale, a robust evidence base, an appropriate geography, research and development. We will implement a new the acceptance of a proportionate degree of risk and innovation voucher programme enabling small businesses proper standards of governance, co-operation and to engage with universities and the wider knowledge accountability. base. We will also support research innovation and Supported by the Cities Policy Unit in the Cabinet collaboration overseas, focusing on innovation hot spots Office, and in partnership with the Department for and high-growth economies, starting with China and Communities and Local Government and the Department India. We will make it a priority to secure greater for Business, Innovation and Skills, I will, as Minister European funding to support research and development for Cities, work closely with city leaders and with colleagues by UK businesses. across Whitehall Departments to agree a series of city deals over the coming months. Our timings will reflect The coalition Government are putting innovation the needs and readiness of each city, but given the and research at the heart of their growth agenda through national imperative to boost economic growth, and the greater investment and increased collaboration, ensuring enthusiasm in our cities for moving this agenda forward, that the UK has a promising future. we intend to move at pace, agreeing the first wave of city deals by spring next year. Unlocking Growth in Cities Because of their size and economic importance, we are currently focusing on the largest cities in England. The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation However, taking account of the lessons to be learned and Skills (Greg Clark): The Government are today from this first wave, we will consider the case for extending publishing “Unlocking Growth in Cities”, which describes the city deal process to other communities in due course. a new framework for the relationship between our largest cities and central Government. In particular, the document I have placed copies of “Unlocking Growth in Cities” sets out the terms for a system of “city deals”—binding in Libraries of both Houses. 37WS Written Ministerial Statements8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 38WS

TREASURY Reductions to budgets will be made immediately and will be reflected at the main estimate, which will go before Parliament next year. Bank Levy Double Taxation Agreement (UK and Germany) This represents an average reduction of approximately 1% of affected resource budgets in 2014-15. As a result of this reduction in departmental budgets, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark there will be a consequential Barnett reduction in the Hoban): A double taxation agreement with Germany resource allocation to the Scottish Government, Welsh was signed on 7 December 2011 in relation to both Government, and Northern Ireland Executive. However, countries’ bank levies. The text of the agreement has the overall effect of the autumn statement will be a net been deposited in the Libraries of both Houses and increase in current budgets for the devolved Administrations. made available on HM Revenue and Customs’ website. Scotland will see an increase of £69 million, Wales an The text will be annexed as a schedule to a Treasury increase of £22 million, and Northern Ireland an increase Order and laid before the House of Commons in due of £37 million over the spending review period as a course. result of the measures announced. Departments will have flexibility over how they RDEL Revisions implement the pay policy across their work forces, with pay review bodies and negotiating machinery playing The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander): their usual role. The autumn statement announced that public sector pay awards will average1%foreach of the two years following the end of the current pay freeze, and that departmental budgets will be adjusted in line with this COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT policy. The pay policy will be applied to health, schools, and Local Government Finance international development, but the savings will be recycled within existing budgets. Departmental resource DEL budgets (excluding The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for depreciation) will adjusted by the following amounts: Communities and Local Government (Robert Neill): Iam today publishing the Government’s formal proposals £ million on distribution of formula grant to English local authorities 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 for 2012-13. Total formula grant for 2012-13 will be Education1 -4 -25 -42 £27.8 billion, of which redistributed business rates will Transport -6 -14 -14 be £23.1 billion, revenue support grant £477 million and CLG Communities -3 -6 -6 police grant £4.2 billion. CLG Local Government2 0 -240 -497 The 2010 spending review set out how the Government Business, Innovation and Skills -9 -19 -19 are tackling the deficit we have inherited from the last Home Office3 -14 -68 -135 Administration and put the public finances back in Justice 0 -43 -85 order. Every bit of the public sector needs to do its bit Law Officers’ Departments 0 -4 -9 to help pay off the deficit, including local government, which accounts for a quarter of all public spending. Defence 0 -103 -197 The settlements for 2011-12 and 2012-13 set out on Foreign and Commonwealth 0-3-7 Office 13 December 2010 sought to achieve fair and sustainable Energy and Climate Change -1 -3 -3 settlements for local government between different parts Environment Food and Rural -10 -22 -22 of the country—from urban to rural, north to south, Affairs metropolitan to shire. Culture Media and Sport -4 -9 -9 This settlement is supported by our extension of the Work and Pensions -32 -72 -72 successful council tax freeze scheme to a second year, Scotland -4 -23 -38 building on the 2011-12 freeze offer taken up by all Wales -2 -19 -35 eligible councils. The offer being made to local authorities Northern Ireland -2 -10 -15 for 2012-13 is set out in the written statement of HM Revenue and Customs 0 -24 -47 14 November 2011, Official Report, column 27WS. HMT -1 -1 -1 Council tax more than doubled since 1997 and the CO -2 -4 -4 freeze will offer real help to hard working families and SIA 0 -11 -11 once again save up to £72 compared to a 5% rise in council tax on top of this year’s saving of up to £72. All Small and Independent Bodies 0 -4 -4 4 eligible authorities took up the offer of Government Total -95 -727 -1272 funding to freeze or reduce their council tax in 2011-12. 1 The budget for schools will be unaffected 2 Local Government DEL includes funding for fire and rescue authorities By offering their local residents a council tax freeze and some police funding (shared with the Home Office) again this year, it will offer real help now with the cost 3 Home Office DEL includes some police funding (shared with local of living to local residents, including pensioners, private government) sector workers and public sector workers. 4 The total DEL reductions are greater than the total managed expenditure (TME) savings scored in the autumn statement, because The estimated yield from business rates in England the TME savings take into account the costs of reduced pension will be £23.119 billion in 2012-13. Since this is greater contributions that result from lower pay growth than the formula grant control total for 2012-13 agreed 39WS Written Ministerial Statements8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 40WS at the spending review, the second year’s funding for (i.e. is “excessive”). These provisions will be implemented authorities which froze or reduced their council tax in for 2012-13 and I am also today giving an indication of 2011-12 has been included in formula grant for this the principles I am minded to propose for that year. I year. This increases the total amount included as formula propose that local authorities will be required to seek grant for 2012-13 to £27.791 billion. the approval of their local electorate in a referendum if, The overall settlement is in keeping with that first compared with 2011-12, they set council tax increases proposed in February 2011. The sum of the provisional that exceed: 2012-13 formula grant as at 7 February 2011 and the 3.5% for most principal authorities; 2011-12 council tax freeze grant, therefore, form the 3.75% for the City of London; allocations of formula grant for 2012-13. The council tax 4% for the Greater London Authority, police authorities, freeze grant allocations remain separately identifiable, and single purpose fire and rescue authorities. and the subtotal given in the breakdown table for each authority is the same as the provisional 2012-13 formula I am proposing that no equivalent principles will grant allocations as at 7 February 2011 (my written apply for town and parish councils for 2012-13, although statement of 7 February 2011, Official Report, column they may in future years. 1WS). This is in line with the Government’s policy on Of course, should all eligible local authorities take up multi year settlements, which is that we will not change the new council tax freeze offer for 2012-13 there will be the provisional proposals first published in February 2011 no need for council tax referendums next year. After except in entirely exceptional circumstances. considering any representations from authorities, I will We have continued to focus resources in a way that set out the final principles in a report to the House and gives more weight to those parts of the country with the seek approval for these in parallel with the final report highest levels of need. These are often the areas which on the 2012-13 local government finance settlement. are most reliant on central Government grant. As in Any town hall that turns down the council tax freeze 2011-12, in calculating the grant distributions we have offer and tries to hike council tax bills unreasonably will acted to insulate them by distributing less money on a now have to ask at the ballot box whether hard-working per capita basis, and giving more weight to the levels of families and pensioners are willing to shoulder an increase need within different areas. We have also grouped councils in their cost of living. into four bands and set different “floors” for their grant Finally, this is a transitional settlement where we have reductions. This is a fairer and more progressive system set out details of the settlement for two years, striking a of calculating grant than before. balance between the need to help councils plan for the This year’s settlement means that the average spending future and the need to reform the system. Ministers power reduction for 2012-13 is expected to be limited to believe the current system we have inherited from the 3.3% (or £75 per household), less than last year’s comparable last administration is broken. As the National Audit figure of 4.5%. We have also again made sure that no Office has observed, the formula grant system is council will see their overall spending power fall by “highly complex and not transparent” more than 8.8%. To fund this, I have transferred £20 million of my Department’s budget to local government for and 2012-13. This additional funding will smooth the impact “the complexity of the four-block model... [serves to] obscure the of this year’s settlement. Councils will have an average link between needs, resources and funding” spending power of £2,186 per household at their disposal (NAO, “Formula funding of local public services”, in 2012-13. Reflecting the fairness of the settlement, the July 2011, HC 1090, p.26). average spending power per household in Hackney will be £3,050 compared with £1,537 in Windsor and We have recently consulted on proposals that would Maidenhead. lead to fundamental reform to the funding of local government, moving away from the existing arrangements Many councils have successfully shown that they can where there is no connection between the health of the deliver significant efficiencies but there is still more to local economy and the funding of the local authority. be done. Smarter procurement, reducing management Our proposals will provide councils with greater control and support services costs, greater transparency to cut over their funding, developing a direct link between the waste, sharing services and tackling fraud can all deliver growth of businesses in their area, and the revenues significant savings to help protect front-line services available to them. These proposals, which we intend to and taxpayers’ interests. And to support councils the introduce from 2013-14, will deliver direct financial Localism Act will trigger the biggest transfer of power incentives for authorities that promote economic growth in a generation to local communities. and help many councils break free from dependency on Moreover, I would note that in the coming year, local grants from central Government. The Government will government will have access to new financial measures set out their response to the consultation proposals to including over £430 million of funding under new homes the House shortly. bonus, up to a £1 billion in community infrastructure Today also marks the start of a period of statutory levy, and access to the £2.4 billion regional growth fund consultation with local government on formula grant and the £500 million growing places fund (through their distribution and I welcome their responses. Consultation local enterprise partnerships). closes on 16 January 2012. The Localism Act also includes powers to abolish I shall be making available full supporting information Whitehall capping in England and instead allow local on the Department for Communities and Local residents to veto excessive council tax rises. I can confirm Government website at: that we are moving ahead with introducing arrangements for council tax referendums if an authority sets a council http://www.local.communities.gov.uk/finance/1213/ tax which exceeds principles endorsed by Parliament grant.htm. 41WS Written Ministerial Statements8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 42WS

This includes a “Plain English Guide to the Local that, while there was no medical risk to women, there Government Finance Settlement” for 2012-13 which I remains a risk to a foetus, which could emanate from hope will be helpful in cutting through the jargon and the higher level of carbon dioxide in submarines in the sheer complexity of the current system. comparison to normal atmospheric conditions. There is I have placed copies of the consultation paper and no danger from radiation; the average annual dose of the Plain English Guide, as well as details of the location radiation accrued by Royal Navy submariners is actually of other supporting material, in the Vote Office and the less than the average annual background dose received Library of the House. by the general population of the UK (as submariners are not as frequently exposed to the sun). External legal counsel has advised that the scientific and medical evidence did not justify a ban on female submariners, DEFENCE but did require the exclusion of pregnant submariners. Female officers will be introduced first into the Vanguard Libya (Operation Ellamy) class as soon as the policy and practical changes can be made, which is expected to be towards the end of 2013, with a small number of volunteers commencing submarine The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Philip Hammond): training in late 2012. The first female ratings to join a In a written statement on 23 June 2011, Official Report, Vanguard class submarine will be recruited and trained column 24WS, my predecessor the right hon. Member from 2014, to join sometime in 2015. Women will also for North Somerset (Dr Fox) informed the House that be permitted to serve in the Astute class, but probably the costs of Operation Ellamy—the United Kingdom’s not before 2016, when the necessary modifications to contribution to coalition operations in Libya in support accommodation and facilities have been made. of United Nations Security Council Resolution 1973—for the six months from mid-March to mid-September were estimated to be £120 million. In addition, an estimated EDUCATION cost of replenishing munitions of up to £140 million. On 12 October 2011, Official Report, column 30WS, my predecessor revised the figure for the whole operation, Academies Funding Transfer from mid-March to mid-December, to £160 million with an estimate of the cost of replenishing munitions used in Libya at £140 million. The Secretary of State for Education (Michael Gove): I am today publishing a consultation setting out my I have previously informed the House, on 14 November “minded to” decision in relation to the academies funding 2011, Official Report, column 568, that I would provide transfer for 2011-12 and 2012-13. a final estimate of the cost of operations in Libya in early December. With operations now over we estimate The decision has been reached in consultation with that the net additional cost of Operation Ellamy will be the Secretary of State for Communities and Local £212 million. This estimate is made up of £145 million Government and takes account of the responses received of operating costs, plus a further £67 million on the cost from local authorities to our consultation, issued in July of replenishing munitions. 2011, about the basis for the decision. As previously announced, the additional costs incurred The decision takes account of the need to ensure that by the Ministry of Defence on Operation Ellamy will be both academies and local authorities are funded fairly borne by the reserve, and will be in addition to the core for the pupils they provide services for and the defence budget. The fully audited cost of Operation responsibilities which they hold. We have also considered Ellamy will be published in the Ministry of Defence’s how best we can ensure that the amount transferred annual report and accounts. better reflects the distribution of academies between local authorities. We plan to make changes from April 2012 to the Submarine Service methodology for calculating the level of the transfer to ensure that the amount transferred properly reflects the services which transfer to academies from their local The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Philip Hammond): authority. We will do this in two ways. First we will, in I am pleased to inform the House that, following a future, only take account of net expenditure on education review, women in the Royal Navy will be allowed to services; and secondly, in areas where some responsibilities serve in submarines in the future. remain with the local authority, we will only use a The decision follows an 18-month thorough analysis, proportion of spend in those areas to determine the which included a study of legal, operational, health, amount to be transferred. social, technical, and financial issues. Key to this was To provide financial stability and certainty to local the naval service’s operational effectiveness now and authorities we will cap the maximum amount to be in the future. This decision to allow women to serve in transferred in 2012-13 at the level of the top-slice of submarines will enable the Royal Navy to maximise the formula grant which has been announced by the deployability of its talent pool. Department for Communities and Local Government. Recent medical research has shown that there are no In addition we will make a calculation for each authority risks to female health during normal submarine operations, in January 2013 of the costs of the local authority so there are no medical reasons for excluding women element of local authority central spend equivalent from service in submarines, provided they are not pregnant. grant (LACSEG) based on the number of academies in An independent peer review of this work concluded each authority. Where the costs calculated for an authority 43WS Written Ministerial Statements8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 44WS are below the amount top-sliced from formula grant, we I have placed an electronic copy of each document in will make a specific grant payment to that authority the Libraries of the House. A copy of each document is equivalent to the difference between the costs and the also available on the DECC website at: top-slice. http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/meeting_ To provide further certainty to local authorities we energy/nuclear/new/waste_costs/waste_costs.aspx. plan to make no changes to the previously announced top-slice for 2011-12 as we believe that taking action to redistribute costs at this stage in the financial year would cause unnecessary turmoil and instability. ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS This arrangement, whilst providing financial certainty and stability to local authorities, means that the Government will continue to provide a considerable amount of double Water White Paper funding in this area. Given the poor value for money which this provides the taxpayer these arrangements should only be seen as transitional. The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural The Government are committed to resolving the Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman): I am today laying double funding of local authorities for services which before Parliament “Water for Life”, our water White devolve to academies permanently from 2013-14. As Paper. This sets out the Government’s vision for securing part of the local government resource review, we will sustainable and resilient water supplies through to 2050. explore removing the funding for these services from It builds on the success of the sector since water formula grant into the budget of the Department for privatisation, while recognising that population growth Education. In this option, the Department would then and climate change will place extra demands on a a administer a grant to authorities and to academies system designed to meet the needs of today, not tomorrow. proportionate to the number of pupils for which they The White Paper includes new scenarios of water are responsible according to a national rate. We plan to availability in the 2050s. We need to start planning now consult, jointly with the Department for Communities to build flexibility and resilience into our water and and Local Government, in 2012 on how we could put sewerage infrastructure. Our approach must include our commitment permanently to solve this issue into better management of demand, but we will also need effect. substantial new investment in infrastructure so we can I have placed copies of the consultation paper in the capture more water and start to use the supplies we have Vote Office and the House Libraries. more efficiently. We need to connect up our water system more effectively so that we can move supplies to areas where they are scarcer. We also need to ensure our drainage system can continue to operate effectively as ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE infrastructure ages and pressure on capacity grows as the population increases. The White Paper sets out how we will take forward New Nuclear Waste and Decommissioning Financing our commitment in the natural environment White Paper to long-term reform of the water abstraction regime. Reform is vital given the challenges of climate The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate change and population growth and the lack of flexibility Change (Charles Hendry): I have today laid before in the existing regime to deal with them. This will be a Parliament Funded Decommissioning Programme (FDP) complex task, and we will work closely with abstractors guidance for prospective operators of new nuclear power and other stakeholders to deliver it. We plan to consult stations, together with the Government response to the on proposals in 2013, and aim to introduce legislation December 2010 consultation on draft FDP guidance subsequently, implementing the new regime fully by the and a Waste Transfer Pricing Methodology for the mid to late 2020s. disposal of higher activity waste from new nuclear As well as looking to the future, we want to tackle the power stations. problems of pollution and over-abstraction affecting The FDP guidance is statutory guidance that is provided our rivers and wetlands currently. We can succeed only for in the Energy Act 2008. It sets out the factors which by drawing in the enthusiasm and knowledge of those may be appropriate for the Secretary of State to consider with a clear stake in their local environment. We set out in deciding whether or not to approve an FDP, approve how Government and regulators are already starting to it with conditions, or modify an FDP which has already make this happen through new catchment pilots as well been approved. The guidance also sets out information as a concerted effort to align advice, incentives and about the preparation, content, modification and regulatory tools to address diffuse pollution and improve implementation of FDPs under the Energy Act. the environment. The White Paper explains how we will The Waste Transfer Pricing Methodology is a technical extrapolate from around 70 catchment scale pilot projects, document the purpose of which is to set out how the and provide intensive support to 25 of them, as a Government will determine the price for the transfer of precursor to rolling out this approach across the country. title to and liability for intermediate level waste and We know that affordability of water bills is a growing spent fuel from a new nuclear operator to the Government, problem for householders, and we want to enable businesses for disposal in the geological disposal facility that the to keep their costs down. We set out our new framework Government will construct for the disposal of legacy to enable water companies to target more help on those wastes. The methodology also provides some worked household customers who need it most by introducing examples. company social tariffs. 45WS Written Ministerial Statements8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 46WS

If bills are to be kept affordable over the longer term, 100 international delegations, reiterated the international and customers are to receive better service from their community’s long-term commitment to Afghanistan. water companies, the regulatory framework governing I represented the UK. the industry must change. The White Paper sets out The conference conclusions set out a plan for the how we are helping business customers and public international community’s long-term engagement with bodies to reduce unnecessary costs by a package of Afghanistan beyond 2014. They included commitments deregulatory reforms to introduce more competition to provide economic support to Afghanistan for the into the water industry. The reforms we propose will decade after 2014, until Afghanistan becomes economically provide non-household customers with more choice self-sustainable. The conference also agreed to produce and open up the market to new entrants, removing the a clear plan for the future structure and funding for anti-competitive barriers in the existing regime. Our the Afghan National Security Forces in advance of the proposals will increase the size of the market to include NATO Chicago summit next May. In addition the all non-household customers; remove a restrictive access conclusions set out an agreed set of guiding principles price mechanism that makes it difficult for new entrants for the reconciliation process and its outcomes. This to compete on price and which unduly protects incumbents builds on the recent Traditional Loya Jirga in Afghanistan and replace it with a more transparent wholesale access with support for an inclusive, representative peace process. price regime; increase opportunities for new entrants by The Afghan Government committed themselves to extending the regime to cover sewerage services; and make further progress on key development priorities, introduce changes to the existing regime for upstream including governance, anti-corruption and rule of law. competition to encourage new entrants and stimulate The Afghan Government also promised to uphold all the market. We will work with the Scottish Government their international human rights obligations and to to enable a cross-border market in water and sewerage protect women’s rights as enshrined in the constitution. services. I reinforced the UK’s long-term commitment to As a result, we expect business and public sector Afghanistan and the aims of the international community customers to receive a range of benefits from more post-2014 including development aid and support for customer-focused suppliers with an incentive to improve the ANSF. I welcomed the political and economic the services they offer, such as aggregated purchasing, framework agreed at the conference and the importance discounts for direct debits or improved information on of regional engagement, building on the successful Istanbul how to improve water efficiency and cut costs. conference in November. I reaffirmed our support for However, we do not propose to introduce more the Afghan Government in upholding human rights, fundamental structural reform of the water industry, including women’s rights. for example through mandating legal separation of the President Karzai was due to visit London immediately retail arm of water companies. Given the challenges we after the Bonn conference to sign the UK’s own long-term are facing to build resilience in the sector, which will partnership agreement with Afghanistan. President Karzai require ongoing investment in infrastructure, I am not had to cancel his visit to the UK because of the tragic proposing to make changes which could reduce the sectarian attacks in Afghanistan on 6 December. We attractiveness of the water sector as a low-risk, stable had planned to sign the enduring partnership with home for investment. President Karzai during his visit to London. Instead, If we are to deliver our vision for the future of a we will sign this partnership in the near future. I condemn sustainable and resilient water system we must change this attack and the terrorist attacks of 7 December that the way we all value water. We need to start using water resulted in the loss of many innocent lives. While we more efficiently, and recognising it as the precious and strongly condemn such atrocities, these acts of terrorism limited resource it is. We need to build awareness of the will not undermine the commitments made at the Bonn connection between water in the home and the condition conference by the UK and the international community. of local rivers to encourage behaviour change. The We will continue to build on these commitments to see White Paper sets out our approach to encouraging the emergence of a stable and secure Afghanistan where more efficient use of water, including through the linkage the rights of individuals are respected. to the green deal. The White Paper is available on the DEFRA website at http://www.defra.gov.uk/environment/quality/water/ legislation/whitepaper/ HEALTH

Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Affairs Council

Afghanistan (Outcomes of Bonn International The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health Conference) (Anne Milton): The health part of the Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer Affairs (EPSCO) Council met on 2 December in Brussels. Andy Lebrecht, The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Deputy Permanent Representative to the European Union, Affairs (Mr William Hague): On 5 December, Germany represented the United Kingdom . hosted and Afghanistan chaired the international Council conclusions were adopted on: Afghanistan conference in Bonn, entitled “Afghanistan closing the gap in health between member states through and the International Community: From Transition to action on determinants of health, especially nutrition and the Transformation Decade”. The UK, together with over physical activity; 47WS Written Ministerial Statements8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 48WS

non-communicable diseases: prevention and control of The results of the CQC inspections programme will respiratory diseases in children; and feed into the wider departmental review of Winterbourne prevention and control of communication disorders in children, View. We are still gathering evidence from the serious including innovative approaches to treatment. case review and the NHS serious untoward incident The Commission provided an update on the health review, and from other investigations and reports. for growth programme and the presidency asked member The departmental review is actively engaging with states to comment on the priorities for the programme. people with learning disabilities or autism and challenging The Commission underlined that the programme would behaviour and their families about how services can be focus on areas where the EU could genuinely add value, improved. Ministers will report findings from the in particular, ensuring a smarter investment in health. departmental review to Parliament and determine what The UK welcomed the intention of the proposed further action is necessary. programme, but indicated a preference for it to be I will continue to update the House as things develop. brought forward as a decision rather than a regulation. A number of member states also emphasised that the programme should respect the principle of subsidiarity, particularly in relation to the health system elements. The Commission gave an update on the suggestion of HOME DEPARTMENT splitting the pharmacovigilance provisions from the Commission’s recently published information to patients proposals. It confirmed it would positively pursue this approach. Advancing Transgender Equality In addition, Denmark spoke about the plans for its presidency.It confirmed the intention to focus on innovation in health, anti-microbial resistance, and chronic disease The Minister for Equalities (Lynne Featherstone): At (taking diabetes as a model). the very heart of the coalition Government is a commitment to fairness and equality. Celebrating the diversity of the UK and enabling all to be able to play their full part will Winterbourne View lead to a strong society which values all of its citizens. The UK has a record to be proud of in advancing equality for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people but we must not be complacent. We know that challenges The Minister of State, Department of Health (Paul still exist and we need to take bolder actions to deal Burstow): I promised to update the House about ongoing with these issues. Too many transgender people still activity in relation to Winterbourne View private hospital. face outdated prejudice at every stage of their lives, The House will wish to note that 10 people employed from discrimination in the workplace to tragic incidents at Winterbourne View have now been charged with of hate crime. This not only blights people’s lives, but offences of ill-treatment and neglect under the Mental undermines the principles upon which this country Health Act. They are due to appear in Bristol magistrates prides itself. This Government are committed to addressing court on 15 December. A further three people who have these issues and advancing transgender equality. also been arrested on suspicion of causing ill-treatment In March 2011, the Government published “Working under the Mental Capacity Act 2005 remain on police for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Equality: bail pending inquiries. Moving Forward”, which included cross-Government PricewaterhouseCooper’s report on Castlebeck Care commitments to tear down barriers and advanced equal services was published on 25 November and Castlebeck opportunities for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender has committed to taking forward all the action points people in all areas of society—including in schools, at from that report. The report can be found at: work and in healthcare. www.castlebeck.com/docs/pwc_recommendations_ This document recognised that transgender people report.pdf face distinct and specific challenges that sometimes In October, I advised the House that the Care Quality need to be addressed separately. Commission (CQC) had started its programme of Today we are publishing “Advancing Transgender unannounced inspections of services for people with Equality: A Plan for Action”, which builds on our learning disabilities. This review is now well under way—as programme of work to tackle outdated prejudices and at 2 December some 76 inspections had been completed. ensure equal chances for everyone whatever their gender CQC is also carrying out around 1,000 inspections a identity. It shows a real commitment across Government month which include undertaking inspections where to take concerted action to tear down barriers to equal there are concerns that providers may not be meeting opportunities and to build a fairer society. This document the essential safety and quality requirements also mirrors the aims of the Government’s “The Equality The first five reports from the focused learning disability Strategy—Building a Fairer Britain” which aims to inspections have been published today and can be found address inequality in social mobility, tackling deprivation, at www.cqc.org.uk/ldreview. We will, of course, ensure developing a fair and flexible labour market, promoting that the NHS and local authorities are continuing to greater participation and opening up public services, take action required to address any concerns raised and changing culture and attitudes. and review their own commissioning, care planning Copies of the action plan have been placed in the and oversight arrangements to support improvements House Library and will also be available on the Home and service transformation. Office website: http://homeoffice.gov.uk/equalities/ 49WS Written Ministerial Statements8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 50WS

G6 Meeting (Paris) passenger name records and data protection. The next meeting of the G6 is expected to be held in Germany in June. The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May): The informal G6 group of Ministers Provisional Police Funding Announcement of the Interior from France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Poland and the UK held their most recent meeting in Paris on 1 December under the French presidency of The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick the group. The meeting was chaired by the French Herbert): I have today placed in the Library my proposals Interior Minister Claude Guéant. The meeting was for the aggregate amount of grant to police authorities divided into two working sessions which were attended (referred to in the report as the police core settlement) by the G6 Ministers of the Interior. Additional guests in England and Wales for 2012-13, for the approval of included the US Attorney-General, Eric Holder; the the House. The indications I gave last year for revenue US Secretary of Homeland Security, Janet Napolitano, funding in 2012-13 have remained unchanged and are and European Commissioner for Home Affairs, Cecilia set out in table 3. Malmström. Today the Department for Communities and Local The first working session of G6 Ministers and the Government also published proposals for the distribution Commission considered Schengen governance, asylum of formula grant to English local authorities for 2012-13. and itinerant (mobile) criminality. Delegates agreed on The Welsh Government will shortly be setting out their the need for a stronger political governance of the proposals for the allocation of funding in 2012-13 for Schengen area that would preserve the achievement of the four police authorities in Wales. the border-free zone while retaining the necessary Overall police settlement safeguards. G6 Ministers agreed that member states As set out in the Chancellor’s autumn statement on should retain the possibility of re-imposing internal 29 November, public sector pay awards win average at border controls in the event of a major failure of the 1% for the last two years of the spending review period. external border or a large, unexpected migratory pressure. As a result, the Home Office budget will be adjusted in They called for an early warning mechanism to alert line with this policy. Subject to any recommendations Schengen states in this regard, as well as a strengthening from the police negotiating board and agreement on of the Schengen evaluation mechanism. On asylum, the staff pay, we expect that this policy should also apply to meeting recognised the need for the Common European the police. This revision should not reduce the overall Asylum System (CEAS) to provide those member states revenue spending power of the police service. I will taking part in it with the tools and procedures to make decisions on damping levels for these years at a respond quickly and effectively to asylum claims. Delegates later date. noted the European Council’s desire to conclude the CEAS negotiations in 2012, and as far as possible For 2012-13 I have applied damping as previously before the end of Denmark’s EU presidency. I underlined announced at the time of the spending review. the need to deal with asylum cases as swiftly as possible The total cash reduction in Government funding to and to ensure that decisions were made properly to the police remains at 5% this year. distinguish between those claims that were genuine and I will continue to provide a specific neighbourhood those that were not. On itinerant criminality, Ministers policing fund for 2012-13. This recognises that discussed the need to direct more effectively existing EU neighbourhood policing provides a dedicated, consistent resources, such as Europol and Eurojust, to tackle the and visible presence in communities. From 2013-14 this threat of mobile organised crime groups. I raised the funding will be rolled into the police main grant, enabling issue of metal theft which affects G6 countries as well as the new directly elected police and crime commissioners the UK. to have full discretion over their funding, recognising The second session, including the US representatives, their accountability to the communities they serve. In focused on the recovery of criminal assets and transatlantic London, the Metropolitan Police Authority received data sharing. Delegates discussed the ongoing difficulties autonomy over this funding from 2011-12, in recognition associated with recovering the proceeds of organised of the role the Mayor of London and the Deputy crime, and agreed on the need for greater international Mayor, policing already play. That will continue in co-operation and more robust asset recovery procedures. 2012-13. The US Attorney-General underlined the importance I win also continue to provide specific funding for of civil procedures in asset recovery. I emphasised that counter terrorism policing and have provided relative financial investigation skills and techniques were not an protection to this budget throughout the spending review addition but rather an essential part of the wider armoury period to ensure that critical national counter terrorism of techniques required to investigate criminality. Delegates capabilities are maintained. Authorities and forces will then discussed the progress of negotiations around the receive their specific counter terrorism allocations in EU-US PNR and EU-US data protection agreements. January. In addition to the police core settlement, the Olympic In addition to the two plenary sessions, I spoke about safety and security budget has been prioritised. These the preparations under way for the 2012 Olympic games, provisions are detailed below. and presented the UK’s plans to reform the European Court of Human Rights under our chairmanship of the The introduction of Police and Crime Commissioners Council of Europe. I also held separate bilateral meetings During 2012-13 the public will elect their first police with some of the other heads of delegation to discuss a and crime commissioners in England and Wales. It is range of issues including extradition, illegal migration, the will of the House that police authorities will be 51WS Written Ministerial Statements8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 52WS replaced on the 22 November 2012 with directly elected contributing up to 75% of their salary costs. The remaining individuals who will have the statutory duty to deliver 25% will need to be match-funded by the police, councils, an efficient and effective police force, which clearly businesses and other organisations. This does not apply demonstrates value for money and, above all, delivers to the Metropolitan Police Authority/Mayor’s Office policing and community safety services in the local and for Policing and Crime which has had full discretion on national interest of the communities within their force the spending of this funding from 2011-12. From 2013-14 area. The precept that police authorities will set for this fund will be consolidated into police main grant. 2012-13, will not be affected by the election of police Counter Terrorism and crime commissioners in November 2012. Once elected police and crime commissioners will begin to Counter-terrorism has been prioritised to ensure that prepare their police and crime plan and budget for the police will have the necessary resources to respond 2013-14. to the changing demands posed by the terrorist threat. Some £50 million was set aside for 2012-13 to fund We have allocated £564 million to support counter the first elections of police and crime commissioners. terrorism policing in 2012-13. This £50 million was added to the police settlement for Forces will be notified of their individual allocations this specific purpose. Additional funding has been set in early January. For security reasons, these allocations aside now that the 2012 elections are being held in will not be available in the public domain. November. The funding of the elections has had no impact on the amount of funding available to forces Private Finance Initiatives Grant over the four-year period of PCC office and we expect it Specific funding will be given to cover the costs of to represent no more than 0.15% of annual police police private finance initiative projects which are currently funding. operational. This funding was added to the police settlement THE POLICE GRANT SETTLEMENT 2012-13 for this specific purpose. The Home Office will also I have set out below how I propose to allocate the support the two police PFI projects that are currently in police settlement between the different funding streams procurement, and which are not yet operational. in 2012-13. National, International and Capital City Grant Table 1: Police Revenue Funding – Proposed Figures for 2012-13 2012-13 The national, international and capital city grant will £m be paid to the Metropolitan Police Authority/Mayor’s Office for Policing and Crime in 2012-13 when the Total Formula Funding funding will be £189 million. Comprising: Council Tax Freeze Home Office Police Main Grant 4,251 National, International and Capital 189 The Government announced a council tax freeze City Grant (MPA/MoPC only) in England for 2011-12 which all police authorities in DCLG General Grant 3,213 England accepted. As a result, they are all receiving a Of which council tax (11-12) freeze 75 grant equivalent to a 2.5% increase in their 2010-11 grant precept. This grant has been baselined and will continue WAG General Grant 151 to be paid to all police authorities in each year of this spending review period. Total Home Office Specific Grants The Government have recently announced help for Comprising: local authorities in England, including police authorities, Welsh Top-up 13 to freeze their council tax for a further year. Police Neighbourhood Policing Fund (NPF) 338 authorities which decide to freeze or reduce their council Counter Terrorism Specific Grant 564 tax in 2012-13 will receive additional one-off funding, PCC Elections 50* equivalent to raising their 2011-12 precept by 3%. PFI Grant 54 Council tax referendums

Total Government Funding 8,830** The Localism Act 2011 includes powers, already used, % Cash Change in Total Government -5% to abolish capping in England and to introduce Funding arrangements for council tax referendums. A referendum *Any additional funding required will be provided from outside the will take place if an authority, including a police authority, police settlement. proposes a percentage increase in council tax that exceeds **This includes a small amount of funding that will form part of a the level agreed by the House of Commons. These contingency fund, which is not shown in the table above. provisions will be implemented for 2012-13 and the Provisional allocations of these grants (with the exception Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, of counter-terrorism funding) for each force in England in consultation with the Home Secretary, has today and Wales for 2012-13 are set out in table 3. given an indication of the principles he is minded to Neighbourhood Policing Fund propose for 2012-13. After considering any representations from authorities he will set out the final principles in a The neighbourhood policing fund specific grant will report to the House and seek approval for these in continue until 2013-14, when directly elected police and parallel with the final report on the local government crime commissioners will be in place. Funding totalling finance settlement. £338 million in 2012-13 win be made available. Approximately 90% of the grant will be ring-fenced for In Wales, council tax capping is the responsibility of police and community support officers (PCSOs)— Welsh Ministers. 53WS Written Ministerial Statements8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 54WS

OTHER FUNDING Table 3: Provisional Revenue Allocations for England and Wales 2012-13 Police Capital 2012-13 I am minded to amend the capital allocations for Police Authority CLG police authorities in order to support the establishment (including HO Welsh CT of the National Police Air Service. I will consider carefully Core NPF Top-up WAG freeze) any representations on this matter before taking my £m £m £m £m £m decision in time for the final settlement debate in February 2012. This change would mean that the proportion of Greater 230.2 17.3 0.0 0.0 209.8 police capital that goes to the NPAS would be increased Manchester to £10.8 million in 2012-13—£6 million more than I Gwent 44.7 2.9 0.0 33.0 0.0 suggested this time last year. These proposed figures are Hampshire 128.1 7.6 0.0 0.0 72.4 set out in table 2. Hertfordshire 73.9 5.3 0.0 0.0 43.5 Table 2: Proposed Division of Police Capital Between Funding Humberside 69.5 4.7 0.0 0.0 53.3 Streams Kent 109.5 8.0 0.0 0.0 78.8 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 Lancashire 105.7 8.2 0.0 0.0 89.2 £m £m £m Leicestershire 67.3 4.7 0.0 0.0 46.4 Lincolnshire 39.8 2.9 0.0 0.0 24.2 Capital Grant 118 106 109 Merseyside 127.0 9.8 0.0 0,0 127.6 National Police 11 13 10 Air Service Norfolk 53.7 3.9 0.0 0.0 32.4 Special Grant 111North Wales 46.2 3.3 6.5 24.8 0.0 Capital North Yorkshire 43.9 3.4 0.0 0.0 31.3 Total 130 120 120 Northamptonshire 45.2 3.0 0.0 0.0 28.1 Northumbria 115.0 8.9 0.0 0.0 120.1 Nottinghamshire 80.7 5.5 0.0 0.0 54.9 I still intend to allocate the majority of capital funding South Wales 92.7 6.7 0.0 77.6 0.0 directly to police authorities and the Metropolitan Police South Yorkshire 102.7 6.6 0.0 0,0 90.1 Authority/Mayor’s Office for Policing and Crime, who Staffordshire 68.6 4.5 0.0 0,0 47.8 will all receive the same percentage change in funding. I will also continue to maintain a capital contingency. Suffolk 42.8 3.1 0.0 0.0 26.5 These proposed allocations are set out at table 4. Surrey 65.0 4.4 0.0 0.0 35.7 Sussex 101,1 7.2 0.0 0.0 64.2 Olympic Safety and Security Thames Valley 147.0 9.1 0.0 0.0 87.4 Delivering a safe and secure games remains a priority Warwickshire 32.7 2.8 0.0 0.0 19.8 for the Government. With eight months to go, the West Mercia 68.6 5.3 0.0 0.0 51.1 policing and wider security programme is progressing West Midlands 252.9 15.9 0.0 0.0 213.5 well, with many aspects already operational. West Yorkshire 179.3 14.3 0.0 0.0 143.4 Wiltshire 38.7 2.8 0.0 0.0 24.8 The Government announced last year that £600 million Total England and 4440.1 338.0 12.8 151.0 3213.2 will be available for safety and security during the Wales London Olympics in 2012. However, the Government are confident they can deliver this for around £475 million. Table 4: Indicative Capital Allocations for England and Wales Table 3: Provisional Revenue Allocations for England and Wales 2012-13 Police 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 2012-13 Authority Police Authority CLG £m £m £m (including HO Welsh CT Avon & 2.6 2.3 2.4 Core NPF Top-up WAG freeze) Somerset £m £m £m £m £m Bedfordshire 1.1 1.0 1.0 Cambridgeshire 1.3 1.2 1.2 Avon & Somerset 112.7 7.3 0.0 0.0 62.5 Cheshire 1.7 1.5 1.5 Bedfordshire 40.8 2.7 0.0 0.0 28.2 City of 0.9 0.8 0.9 Cambridgeshire 50.0 3.6 0.0 0.0 29.0 London Cheshire 64.3 4.8 0.0 0.0 51.6 Cleveland 1.3 1.2 1.2 City of London 30.2 1.3 0.0 0.0 27.3 Cumbria 0.9 0.8 0.9 Cleveland 47.5 2.9 0.0 0.0 44.4 Derbyshire 1.6 1.4 1.5 Cumbria 30.5 2.3 0.0 0.0 34.9 Devon & 2.8 2.5 2.6 Derbyshire 65.0 3.7 0.0 0.0 44.5 Cornwall Devon & Cornwall 110.5 7.5 0.0 0.0 70.3 Dorset 1.1 1.0 1.0 Dorset 42.4 3.2 0.0 0.0 21.3 Durham 1.3 1.1 1.2 Durham 44.3 3.3 0.0 0.0 42.4 Dyfed-Powys 0.8 0.7 0.8 Dyfed-Powys 32.1 1.6 6.3 15.7 0.0 Essex 2.4 2.2 2.2 Essex 109.5 7.2 0.0 0.0 63,6 Gloucestershire 1.0 0.9 0.9 Gloucestershire 36.2 3.2 0.0 0.0 22,2 Greater 6.0 5.4 5.5 Greater London 1051.6 101.3 0.0 0.0 854.5 Manchester Authority Gwent 1.2 1.0 1.1 55WS Written Ministerial Statements8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 56WS

Table 4: Indicative Capital Allocations for England and Wales geographical areas, which will be announced later. Subject to a satisfactory assessment of the first phase, the Police 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 intention is to complete implementation over the next Authority year. £m £m £m The Government believe that this reform has the Hampshire 3.0 2.7 2.8 potential to contribute to their aim of reforming and Hertfordshire 1.5 1.4 1.4 improving the criminal justice system. Humberside 1.8 1.6 1.7 Kent 2.8 2.5 2.5 NORTHERN IRELAND Lancashire 2.8 2.5 2.6 Leicestershire 1.8 1.6 1.6 Independent Reviewer of the Justice and Security Lincolnshire 1.0 0.9 0.9 (Northern Ireland) Act 2007 (Annual Report) Merseyside 3.5 3.1 3.2 Metropolitan 31.3 28.1 29.0 The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr Owen Norfolk 1.4 1.2 1.3 Paterson): I have arranged for copies of the fourth North Wales 1.2 1.1 1.1 report of Robert Whalley CB, Independent Reviewer of the Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Act 2007 North 1.1 1.0 1.0 Yorkshire (the “2007 Act”), to be laid before Parliament. Northamptonshire 1.1 1.0 1.0 This fourth report provides an assessment of the Northumbria 3.3 2.9 3.0 operation of sections 21 to 32 of the 2007 Act and the Nottinghamshire 1.9 1.7 1.8 procedures adopted by the Brigade Commander 38 South Wales 2.5 2.3 2.3 (Irish) Brigade for receiving, investigating and responding South 2.8 2.5 2.6 to complaints. The report covers the period 1 August 2010 Yorkshire to 31 July 2011. Staffordshire 1.8 1.6 1.6 The report highlights the continuing security threat Suffolk 1.1 1.0 1.0 posed by residual terrorist groups, the activity of organised Surrey 1.6 1.4 1.5 criminals and incidents of public disorder. The reviewer Sussex 2.3 2.1 2.2 comments on the importance of the powers under the Thames 3.8 3.4 3.5 2007 Act in dealing with this broad range of security-related Valley threats, and therefore recommends that the powers be Warwickshire 1.1 1.0 1.0 retained for a further year. West Mercia 1.9 1.7 1.7 The reviewer states that the residual terrorist threat West 6.3 5.7 5.9 has continued on broadly the same level as 2010, but Midlands there have been positive signs of suppression of activity. West 4.6 4.2 4.3 He notes that the number of persons stopped under the Yorkshire 2007 Act has increased significantly but that overall Wiltshire 1.0 0.9 1.0 stop activity by the PSNI has fallen by 36% over the last Total England 118.2 106.0 109.3 year. The reviewer welcomes the authorisation procedure and Wales for the use of stop-and-search powers which the Government are introducing through the Protection of Freedoms Bill. He comments on the importance of cross-border co-operation and points to the activity by JUSTICE An Garda Siochana, which has led to a number of arrests. Abolition of Committals The report also reflects on the regrettable public disorder which we saw in Northern Ireland earlier this year and the attacks on the police, and the subsequent The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice operational need for powers under the 2007 Act, such as (Mr Kenneth Clarke): It is in the interests of victims and stop and question and entry of premises, as part of the witnesses, and of the criminal justice system generally, police response. The reviewer also acknowledges the that court procedures should be made as efficient as significant reduction in complaints to the military over possible, for example by cutting out unnecessary court the last year. hearings. More than 10 years ago, committal proceedings The Chief Constable and the Brigade Commander 38 were abolished in indictable-only offences, and replaced (Irish) Brigade have both welcomed the independent by a new “sending” procedure. The Government have reviewer’s report and the recommendations made. I decided that the time has come to complete that reform would like to thank Robert Whalley for his work and by extending it to offences triable either way. This will for the recommendations contained in this report. I will enable the Crown court to manage such cases from an consider them carefully. earlier stage, and facilitate efforts to encourage defendants who intend to plead guilty to do so sooner. TRANSPORT The change will be effected by bringing into force schedule 3 to the Criminal Justice Act 2003 on a phased Court Notification of Drink-Drive Offences basis from April 2012. Following the practice adopted when the existing sending procedure in section 51 of the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport Crime and Disorder Act 1998 was first introduced, (Mike Penning): In conjunction with my hon. Friend commencement will initially be limited to certain the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, the Member 57WS Written Ministerial Statements8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 58WS for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly), I wish to inform the apply for a licence in future any identified as being House of serious errors that have been identified in the HROs will have to undergo the medical assessment way in which data on drink drive convictions are shared before a licence can be issued. between the police, courts and the Driver and Vehicle Records retention policy and the time limits set under Licensing Agency (DVLA). the terms of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974, At the end of last year, I asked the DVLA to review means that it will not be possible to act upon the communication between the courts and the DVLA. As alcohol readings in the remaining 133,037 cases identified. a result of these investigations it became clear that the We cannot therefore say how many of these drivers alcohol levels for some drink-driving convictions were would have been HROs at the time of their conviction. either not provided to the DVLA by the courts, or were It is with great regret that I inform the House that we inconsistent when there was a delay between the court have identified two cases in 1996 and 2006 where a sending the information and the reconciliation of this driver who was issued a licence without first proving information by DVLA. These errors have been happening their medical fitness to drive, has subsequently caused for more than 20 years. As a result, in some cases, death while driving under the influence of alcohol. driving licences were reissued to individuals whose ban Every death on the road is a tragedy and we have the had expired, but without them undergoing legally required deepest sympathy for anyone affected by the actions of medical tests. these drink-drivers. It is not possible to say whether the As soon as the problem was reported to me in August drivers in these cases would have got their licences back 2011, DVLA put in place manual checks so that any following a medical examination. Every effort is being court notification received at DVLA without an alcohol made to contact the victims’ families to inform them reading was immediately investigated and no licences and to ensure they receive full and proper support. were re-issued without the alcohol level being provided. I can assure the House that we regard road safety and In addition, DVLA have worked to identify cases where ensuring convicted drivers are treated correctly as of information was incomplete in the backlog of data critical importance. Everything possible will be done to since 1991. take action, where we are legally able, against those who The courts and DVLA are now implementing IT represent a risk to other road users. The Under-Secretary changes which will mean that their systems will not of State for Justice and I have ensured that immediate allow cases to be processed at either the courts or action has been taken to deal with this issue and to DVLA unless valid alcohol readings are provided. make sure it does not happen again. I must make clear Furthermore, new operational guidance has been issued that this investigation is continuing but due to the to staff who deal with these cases. complexity of accessing very old court data, final figures Drivers convicted of drink-driving offences with more will not be known for a number of months. than two and a half times the permitted legal alcohol limit are regarded as high-risk offenders (HROs). The Bus and Community Transport law requires that such convicted drivers are required to prove their medical fitness before they can be re-licensed The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport at the end of their disqualification period. (Norman Baker): I am pleased to announce today a As a result of the review DVLA has undertaken, I £60 million package of bus measures to improve buses was informed that some convicted drivers who should and community transport coupled with the £30 million have been treated as HROs have been granted a driving investment to improve the environmental performance licence at the end of their disqualification on the basis of the bus fleet that was announced by the Chancellor of their own declaration of health, without undertaking in the autumn statement, this is a £90 million boost for the required medical assessment. our buses. In total, 265,225 driver records have been found to be A new £50 million better bus area fund will provide missing the relevant information on alcohol levels. Correct grants of up to £5 million to a minimum of 10 local alcohol levels have now been obtained for 50,330 of authorities working in partnership with local bus operators these. We have identified within this group 3,895 drivers for them to spend in 2012-13. The aim of the fund is to who should have been treated as HROs—and therefore increase bus patronage in busy urban areas, and the should have undergone a medical assessment—before Department’s aims of creating growth and cutting carbon. being granted a licence following their disqualification. Authorities wishing to bid for bus funding will be These drivers present a potential risk to road safety and asked to submit bids in February to allow the Department are being contacted so that they can undergo a medical to make awards by the end of March. Detailed bidding assessment immediately. Those who fail to comply, or guidance will be placed on the departmental website cannot demonstrate their medical fitness to drive, will shortly. lose their entitlement to drive. To support further the establishment and development The Ministry of Justice, Her Majesty’s Courts and of community transport, I am also making available Tribunals Service, The Scottish Courts Services and the £10 million to be distributed to 76 local authorities in police are working together urgently to identify the England, outside London, by formula; this is a repeat correct alcohol readings for a further 28,830 records. of the Supporting Community Transport Fund announced Any further HROs identified from these will also be in March 2011. Letters will be sent to eligible local required to undergo a medical assessment. authorities in the new year, with details of the timing of We have identified that of the 265,225 cases, some payments. This comes on top of the £10 million distributed 53,028 relate to convicted drivers who have not yet back in March 2011. applied to renew licences. These individuals do not As well as these two new funds, last week the Chancellor therefore pose an immediate road safety risk. Their announced £25 million of funding for environmental records have been blocked to ensure that if they do improvement to buses. £20 million of this will be available 59WS Written Ministerial Statements8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 60WS to bus operators to help them buy low-carbon emission papers; the Commission’s annual growth survey (including buses through a further round of the green bus fund, for the joint employment report); a set of conclusions on which detail bidding guidance will be published shortly. the European semester; and an opinion of the Social The remaining £5 million will allow older buses in Protection Committee on the social impact of the crisis. London to be retrofitted with pollution-reducing equipment I intervened to welcome the annual growth survey and to help deliver air quality improvements in the capital. emphasised the need for all member states to have a Together with additional funding from Transport for credible and determined approach to fiscal consolidation London, the total amount being committed is £10 million. and, structural reform, including through deeper growth- Not only should this deliver a step change in the friendly labour market reforms. I also stressed that it environmental performance of buses in the capital, but was vital that the EU did not take any counter-productive it will help promote jobs across the UK in the companies measures which might actually end up having the effect that supply clean vehicle technology. of reducing employment. I suggested that Ministers bring specific ideas to the February EPSCO for further discussion. WORK AND PENSIONS There were progress reports on three topics; minimum Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer health and safety requirements regarding the exposure Affairs Council of workers to the risks arising from physical agents (electromagnetic fields); the pregnant workers directive; and the equal treatment of persons irrespective of religion The Minister of State, Department for Work and or belief, disability, age or sexual orientation. Pensions (Chris Grayling): The Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer Affairs Council met on 1 December Ministers adopted three sets of Council conclusions; 2011 in Brussels. I represented the United Kingdom. ageing as an opportunity for the labour market and the There were two negotiations at this Council. In the development of social services and community activities; first negotiation, the presidency secured a general approach the review of the implementation of the Beijing platform on a package of amendments to Regulation (EC) No for action; and the follow-up of the first European 883/2004 on the co-ordination of social security systems. semester and thematic surveillance in employment and One of the proposals in the package would take UK social policies. income support out of the regulations. Some member states expressed concerns at some elements but accepted The Commission presented a report on the functioning the package in the spirit of compromise. I intervened to of the transitional arrangements on the free movement stress that a broader policy debate was required at the of workers from Bulgaria and Romania. political level on mechanisms to prevent benefit tourism. Under any other business the presidency and In the second negotiation, the presidency failed to Commission reported on the first annual convention of reach political agreement on extensions of the crisis the European platform against poverty and social exclusion. derogations to the European globalisation adjustment The presidency provided information on the legislative fund. I intervened to state that in our view EGF did not proposals in the area of migration (single permit, intra- add value and that we could not accept any compromise corporate transfers and seasonal workers) and reported amendments. A blocking minority which included the on the informal meeting of Ministers for family and United Kingdom held out comfortably during the vote. gender equality. The Commission provided an update There was a policy debate on the implementation of on the review of the working time directive; the posting the Europe 2020 strategy in the field of employment of workers directive; and the state of play on the and social policy. The debate was informed by three European debate on women on company boards.

5P Petitions8 DECEMBER 2011 Petitions 6P

are more staff at Radio 4 who work on the You and Petitions Yours programme than the whole of the current team of BBC Radio Merseyside; and that the Petitioners Thursday 8 December 2011 believe any efficiency savings should be fairly distributed, protecting local services and jobs where possible, in order to guarantee quality of programming which remains PRESENTED PETITION locally relevant and to preserve a service that is depended Petition presented to the House but not read on the Floor on by millions of listeners up and down the country, rather than maintaining the budgets of bigger channels HMS Concord and national radio stations. The Petition of William Leitch, The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Declares that the Petitioner believes that it is a grievous Commons urges the Government to encourage the BBC injustice that the 1949 ship’s complement of HMS to reconsider its cuts to BBC local radio. Concord were not recognised as a unit involved in the And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Luciana 1949 Yangtze campaign, due to what the Petitioner Berger, Official Report, 18 October 2011; Vol. 533, believes was a wrongful omission of important relevant c. 869.] documents relating to the role of HMS Concord between 28 and 31 July 1949, and declares that the Petitioner [P000965] believes that those who served on HMS Concord between Observations from the Secretary of State for Culture, 28 and 31 July 1949 deserve justice, remedy and reparation. Media and Sport: The Petitioner therefore requests that the House of The Government understand the important role BBC Commons sets up a Select Committee to conduct a Radio Merseyside plays in the lives of its listeners. Its comprehensive enquiry into the role of HMS Concord contribution to culture and life across the region to in the Yangtze campaign between 28 and 31 July 1949. which it broadcasts is widely recognised. And the Petitioner remains, etc.—[Presented by Graeme The BBC is looking closely at what it does and how it Morrice.] should prioritise its resources in future. It is right that [P000987] the BBC (like other parts of the public sector) should be expected to make savings. How best to achieve that, whilst securing the interests of viewers and listeners, is a matter for the BBC Trust. The BBC is operationally and CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT editorially independent of Government under the terms Proposed cuts to BBC Radio Merseyside of the BBC’s Charter and Agreement, and there is no provision for the Government to intervene in its day-to-day The Petition of listeners to BBC Radio Merseyside, operations. Declares that the Petitioners oppose the 20% cut to Delivering Quality First has been and will continue BBC Radio Merseyside’s budget proposed by the BBC to be subject to extensive scrutiny by the BBC and the management; that the Petitioners note that BBC Radio BBC Trust. The Government notes that the BBC’s Merseyside is the most listened to of the BBC’s 39 local proposals are subject to a full public consultation by the radio stations outside of London with over 300,000 BBC Trust. This gives the public an opportunity to listeners who tune in for an average of 16.2 hours per respond and put their views to the BBC. Details are week to popular programmes such as the Roger Phillips available at http://consultations.external.bbc.co.uk/bbc/dqf/. Show and the Billy Butler Show; further note that there The consultation closes on 21 December 2011.

387W Written Answers8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 388W

(2) what steps the food and catering services in her Written Answers to Department are taking to ensure the country of origin of foods are labelled on its menus and display boards. Questions [85853] Mr David Jones: I refer the hon. Gentleman to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for Glasgow North Thursday 8 December 2011 East (Mr Bain) on 8 March 2011, Official Report, column 909W. Newport: Gwent

WALES Jessica Morden: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales pursuant to the answer of 30 November 2011, Official Report, column 954W, on Newport, Gwent, Departmental Catering what the (a) purpose and (b) venue was of each visit to Newport undertaken by (i) her and (ii) the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales since May 2010. Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales (1) whether food and catering services in her [85519] Department plan to implement calorie labelling on Mr David Jones: The information requested is contained menus and display boards; [85852] in the following table.

Purpose Venue Minister

Discuss Ryder Cup preparations Celtic Manor Resort Secretary of State Visit successful Welsh business JoJo Maman Bebe, Oxwich Secretary of State Road Attend Institute of Directors’ Autumn Business Celtic Manor Resort Secretary of State Leaders’ Luncheon Attend Ryder Cup Celtic Manor Resort Secretary of State Participate in Question Time recording The Riverfront Theatre Secretary of State Attend KPMG Business Lunch Celtic Manor Resort Secretary of State Visit to an voluntary organisation and host Big RASCAL and YMCA Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales Society Seminar

NORTHERN IRELAND PRIME MINISTER

Departmental Audit Research

Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Chi Onwurah: To ask the Prime Minister how many Ireland what criteria (a) his Department and (b) its times he has visited a (a) university research department public bodies use when deciding whether and when to or (b) commercial centre of research since May 2010. hold an internal audit; and if he will make a statement. [84448] [85643] The Prime Minister: I have meetings and discussions with a wide range of organisations at a variety of Mr Paterson: The Northern Ireland Office internal locations around the country, including research centres. auditors operate to Government Internal Audit Standards. For instance, I visited BT’s Adastral park on 5 December My Department does not have executive agencies. 2011. A strong competitive science and research base is a crucial part of securing sustainable economic growth and creating jobs of the future. Departmental Risk Assessment

St George’s Day Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what risk registers are held by the public bodies for which his Department is responsible; Pete Wishart: To ask the Prime Minister whether he and if he will make a statement. [85709] took part in any events in an official capacity to mark (a) St George’s day, (b) St Patrick’s day, (c) St David’s day and (d) St Andrew’s day in 2011. Mr Paterson: Corporate risk registers are held by all [84898] of the non-departmental public bodies for which my Department is responsible. The Prime Minister: The Government and their bodies Effective risk management is an integral component support a number of events to signify the importance of of the corporate governance arrangements of all of the these dates, including flying their flags on a number of Northern Ireland Office’s sponsored bodies. Government buildings. 389W Written Answers8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 390W

COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT retired Gurkhas; how much each local authority will receive; and what methodology will be used to allocate Council Tax the funding. [85269] Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Andrew Stunell: DCLG Ministers and officials have Communities and Local Government (1) if he will met Gurkha charities and local authorities to understand estimate the average level of council tax per capita for the needs of local areas with a significant population of (a) Eastleigh, (b) Amber Valley, (c) North Hertfordshire, Gurkhas and how we might work with a small number (d) Broadland, (e) Stafford, (f) Epping Forest, (g) of local authorities and Gurkha charities to support Swale, (h) Warwick, (i) East Hertfordshire, (j) St Albans, wider settlement. My officials have met Gurkha charities (k) Guildford, (l) Cherwell, (m) Lancaster, (n) Dacorum, and the chief executive of Rushmoor borough council (o) Maidstone and (p) Redcar and Cleveland in each to discuss the impact of the settlement of Gurkhas and year between 2008-09 and 2011-12; [85373] their families on the local community. (2) if he will estimate the average level of council tax We have written to the chief executives of local per capita for (a) Vale of White Horse, (b) Waverley, authorities with Gurkha veterans asking for their experience (c) Horsham, (d) South Kesteven, (e) East Devon, and ideas. When we have received their responses, and (f) Braintree, (g) King’s Lynn and West Norfolk and following further conversations with Gurkha charities, (h) Tendring in each year between 2008-09 and we will make a decision on how to distribute available 2011-12. [85374] funds.

Robert Neill: Figures on average council tax per dwelling and average Band D council tax by local authority can HOME DEPARTMENT be found at: Civil Disorder http://www.communities.gov.uk/localgovernment/ localregional/localgovernmentfinance/statistics/counciltax/ Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for the Figures on council tax requirements by local authority Home Department (1) what assessment she has made can be found at: of the use of (a) the internet and (b) mobile http://www.communities.gov.uk/localgovernment/ telephones in (i) disseminating information about and localregional/localgovernmentfinance/statistics/ (ii) encouraging participation in recent public disorder; revenueexpenditure/ and if she will make a statement; [69824] Mid-year population estimates by local authority (2) what recent discussions she (a) has had and (b) area are published by the Office for National Statistics: plans to have with the operators of mobile telephone http://www.statistics.gov.uk/hub/population/population- companies on the provision of information to the police change/population-estimates about individuals who (i) solicited participation and (ii) Departmental Written Questions participated (A) directly and (B) indirectly in recent public disorder; and if she will make a statement; [69835] Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many (3) what estimate she has made of the number parliamentary questions for (a) ordinary written answer of offenders who (a) solicited participation and and (b) written answer on a named day by his Department (b) participated (i) directly and (ii) indirectly in recent have remained unanswered for a period of two months public disorder by use of (A) the internet and (B) mobile telephones; and if she will make a statement. [69836] since May 2010. [79587] Nick Herbert: It is clear that social networking sites Robert Neill: 20 (0.5%) of around 3,900 written were used to co-ordinate some of the criminality in the parliamentary questions answered by the Department disorder in August. We do not have a clear picture of in the House of Commons between the 2010 General how many of those committing offences made use of Election and 31 October 2011 were answered two months such services. or more after their due date for reply. 16 of these were ordinary written questions and four were named day On 25 August, the Secretary of State for the Home questions. Department, my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), held a constructive meeting The Government have committed to providing the with the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO), Procedure Committee with information relating to written the Metropolitan Police Force and representatives from parliamentary question performance on a sessional basis the social media industry. The discussions looked at and will provide full information to the Committee at how law enforcement and the networks can build on the end of the session. Statistics relating to Government existing relationships and co-operation to prevent the Department’s performance for the 2009-10 parliamentary networks being used for criminal behaviour. session were previously provided to the Committee and are available on the Parliament website. Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what steps she is taking to Gurkhas: Finance review the use of new methods of using mobile technology following the public disorder of August 2011. [70858] Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government pursuant to the Nick Herbert: On 25 August 2011, the Secretary of answer of 23 November 2011, Official Report, column State for the Home Department, my right hon. Friend 430W, on Gurkhas: Aldershot, which local authorities the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), held a will receive funding to support the integration of constructive meeting with the Association of Chief 391W Written Answers8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 392W

Police Officers (ACPO), the Metropolitan Police Service budget provided to SO14 Royalty Protection Unit of and representatives from the social media industry. the Metropolitan Police. To do so would compromise Companies made clear their commitment to removing the integrity of the security arrangements in place for illegal content and, when appropriate, closing accounts, members of the Royal Family. whether at the request of the police or because of a We can provide details of the aggregate Home Office report from other users. It was agreed to step up Dedicated Security Post (DSP) Grant which provides co-operation to ensure that these processes are working funding for police officers and staff who carry out effectively. protection duties. These duties relate to the protection ACPO is also taking forward work to develop the of members of the Royal Family and their residences; capability of police forces to use social media as a and the protection of public figures, and their official means of communicating and engaging with communities. and private residences. In 2010-11, £128 million was Firearms: Crime spent under the DSP Grant.

Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for the Police: Wales Home Department what recent assessment she has made of public opinion on what constitutes a gun Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for the crime; and whether her Department’s definition of a Home Department (1) how many (a) special constables gun crime accords with that opinion. [85492] and (b) police community support officers (i) were assigned to duties in Dyfed Powys in (A) 2009 and (B) Nick Herbert: The Home Office makes regular 2010 and (ii) have been assigned to duties in that area in assessments of the threat posed by gun crime including 2011; [85609] issues relating to the definition of this category of (2) how many police officers there were in Dyfed offence. Powys police in (a) 2009, (b) 2010 and (c) 2011. Metropolitan Police: Finance [85610]

Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for the Nick Herbert: The latest available information, which Home Department what information her Department is set out in the following table, shows the number of holds on the budget of the SO14 Royalty Protection police officers, special constables and police community Unit of the Metropolitan Police for the most recent support officers in Dyfed Powys police force between financial year for which figures are available. [83819] 2009 and 2011. Police officers and police community support officer figures are full-time equivalent which Damian Green [holding answer 29 November 2011]: have been rounded to the nearest whole number. Special We are unable to provide detailed information on the constables figures are given as headcount measures.

Number of police officers, special constables and police community support officers in Dyfed Powys police force between 2009 and 2011 As at 31March each year Police officers1 Special constables2 Police community support officers1

2009 1,197 176 82 2010 1,195 171 83 2011 1,157 186 80 1 This table contains full-time equivalent figures that have been rounded to the nearest whole number. 2 Special constable figures are given as headcount measures.

UK Border Agency: Correspondence 2011, Official Report, columns 426-7W, on employment and support allowance, if he will estimate the level of Mr Winnick: To ask the Secretary of State for the the disregard for (a) personal and (b) occupational Home Department if she will ask the UK Border pensions in employment and support allowance calculations Agency to reply to the letter from the hon. Member for if the level had been uprated by the consumers price Walsall North of 2 November 2011 regarding a constituent, index since 2001; and if he will estimate the financial ref: M1309525 and CTS ref: B28057/11. [85513] effect of such uprating on an individual with £110 personal pension and no other income. [85088] Damian Green: The UK Border Agency wrote to the hon. Member on 6 December 2011. Chris Grayling: The information requested is in the WORK AND PENSIONS following table. Based on the information in the table a Employment and Support Allowance person on contributory employment and support allowance with an occupational pension of £110.00 a week would Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Work have their benefit reduced by £3.95 a week. and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 12 October

Consumer prices index rate of increase Consumer prices index date (percentage) Benefit year Threshold (£)

September 2000 1.00 April 2001 85.00 September 2001 1.30 April 2002 85.85 393W Written Answers8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 394W

Consumer prices index rate of increase Consumer prices index date (percentage) Benefit year Threshold (£)

September 2002 0.90 April 2003 86.95 September 2003 1.50 April 2004 87.75 September 2004 1.10 April 2005 89.05 September 2005 2.40 April 2006 90.05 September 2006 2.40 April 2007 92.20 September 2007 1.70 April 2008 94.40 September 2008 5.20 April 2009 96.00 September 2009 1.10 April 2010 101.00 September 2010 3.10 April 2011 102.10 Note: Benefit rates are normally increased from April each year. The rate of increase is based on the previous September’s inflation rate. Contributory employment and support allowance replaced incapacity benefit for new claims from October 2008. Incapacity benefit and employment support allowance have the same threshold for occupational and personal pension income of £85.00 a week.

Employment Schemes requirements and are confident that the data are of sufficient quality to publish. Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for An information note detailing the Work programme Work and Pensions with reference to the introduction Official Statistics release strategy can be found at the of universal credit, what definition of (a) in employment following website: and (b) off benefit his Department will use for the http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/index.php?page= Work programme. [85599] statistical_summaries Included in the note is an invitation for feedback on the Chris Grayling: From the introduction of universal type of statistics users would like to see made available credit in 2013, we will continue to reward our Work for the Work programme. programme contractors for getting claimants into work and keeping them there, in the same way that we do As soon as we are confident we have reliable data we now. will pre-announce an exact release date via this website We will be working in partnership with our contractors and on the UK Statistics Authority publication hub. to develop an equivalent Work programme outcome Statistics will be published in the DWP quarterly statistical definition which aligns current contracts with universal summary and via an internet based tabulation tool credit. offering users bespoke breakdowns of the headline statistics. Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions when he will publish details of the Housing Benefit penalties for early termination of contracts under the (a) Flexible New Deal and (b) Pathways to Work Nia Griffith: To ask the Secretary of State for Work programmes. [85600] and Pensions how many people receive local housing allowance in respect of (a) a shared room, (b) one Chris Grayling: Discussions to agree settlements in bedroom, (c) two bedrooms, (d) three bedrooms, (e) closing Flexible New Deal contracts are currently in four bedrooms and (f) five bedrooms in each local train. Information on settlement costs will be published authority in Wales. [85650] once agreements have been reached with all contractors. No penalties were incurred in respect of the Pathways Steve Webb: Estimates of the numbers of local housing to Work programme. allowance (LHA) recipients on each rate, by local authority area, are published on the Department for Work and Employment Schemes: Apprentices Pensions website (Annex 2, Table 5): http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/eia-hb-shared-accommodation- Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for age-threshold.pdf Work and Pensions whether he intends to publish data on the number of job outcomes under the Work programme Housing Benefit: Brent that result from placement of an apprenticeship. [85601] Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for Chris Grayling: As a minimum, DWP currently expects Work and Pensions how much discretionary housing to publish referral figures from spring 2012 and job payment was allocated to the London borough of outcome figures from autumn 2012. DWP expects to Brent in the last five years; and what proportion of the make these publicly available by various breakdowns funding was used in each year. [84041] including age; gender; ethnicity; disability; provider; local authority; parliamentary constituency; and contract Steve Webb: The following table shows how much package area. However, this is dependant on the availability Government contribution towards discretionary housing and quality of data from the administrative systems. payments was allocated to the London borough of Presently, we do not plan to publish data on the Brent, how much of the Government contribution they number of job outcomes that result from placement of claimed, how much they spent in excess of the Government an apprenticeship. The exact details of what Work contribution and how much they spent on discretionary programme Official Statistics we will publish will be housing payments as a percentage of the Government available once we have developed more detailed contribution for each of the last five years. 395W Written Answers8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 396W

Government contribution towards discretionary Amount claimed against the Amount spent in excess of the % of the Government housing payments (£) Government contribution (£) Government contribution (£) contribution spent

2006-07 250,674 250,674 1,850 100.74 2007-08 230,888 230,888 19,966 108.65 2008-09 254,714 208,319 0 81.79 2009-10 236,294 236,294 0 100.00 2010-11 226,149 226,149 348 100.15

Housing Benefit: Females the introduction of the size criteria. This included an estimate of the likely impact on Welsh housing benefit Jessica Morden: To ask the Secretary of State for claimants. Work and Pensions how many lone parents in Wales The impact assessment can be found at: receive housing benefit; and what proportion of such http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/social-sector-housing-under- claimants are female. [85520] occupation-wr2011-ia.pdf

Steve Webb: The information requested on lone parents Housing Benefit: Wales in Wales receiving housing benefit and the percentage that are female is provided in the following table: Nia Griffith: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Lone parents and Pensions how many households in (a) Wales and Percentage who are (b) each local authority in Wales will be worse off Caseload female following the introduction of the housing benefit cap. [85691] Wales 57,770 94.1 Notes: Chris Grayling: Estimates of the numbers affected in 1. The figures have been rounded to the nearest ten. each local authority area by the introduction of caps on 2. Percentage has been rounded to the nearest decimal place. local housing allowance (LHA) rates and restricting 3. Housing benefit figures exclude any extended payment cases. An LHA levels to the four bedroom rate are published on extended payment is a payment that may be received for a further four the Department for Work and Pensions website: weeks when they start working full time, work more hours or earn more money. (Table 22) 4. SHBE is a monthly electronic scan of claimant level data direct http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/impacts-of-hb-proposals.pdf from local authority computer systems. It replaces quarterly aggregate clerical returns. New Deal Schemes 5. The data is available monthly from November 2008 and August 2011 is the latest available. 6. For this analysis lone parents are those who are single with child Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for dependant(s). Work and Pensions what proportion of referrals were 7. Caseload figure includes less than 1% of cases where gender is not dealt with by voluntary sector providers in each year of recorded/missing. [85603] Source: the Flexible new deal programme. Single Housing Benefit Extract (SHBE) August 2011. Chris Grayling: DWP held 24 contracts with 14 prime Housing Benefit: Social Rented Housing providers for Flexible new deal and none of those providers were from the voluntary sector. Nia Griffith: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Each prime provider had a supply chain of sub-contracts and Pensions what assessment his Department has in place which included organisations from the voluntary made of the effect on housing benefit claimants of the sector. Data on the onward referral of claimants from introduction of a size criteria in the social rented sector prime providers to sub-contracted providers is not in each local authority in Wales. [85696] something that was recorded for Flexible new deal.

Steve Webb: The information is not available. Pay The estimated impact of changes to housing benefit for tenants living in the social rented sector is based Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work upon information collected in the Department’s Family and Pensions what estimate has been made of the value Resources Survey. Because the survey collects information of benefits in addition to annual salary given to the top from only a sample of households, we cannot produce one per cent. of earners in (a) 1981 and (b) 2011. reliable estimates for the number of claimants likely to [84461] be affected by the size criteria in each local authority area. Mr Gauke: I have been asked to reply. In February 2011 the Department for Work and The information requested is not available either for Pensions (DWP) produced an impact assessment entitled benefits in kind or for state benefits. “Under-occupation of social housing”, coinciding with Related information on amounts of taxable benefits the publication of the Welfare Reform Bill. in kind and expenses by income for years 2002-03 to The impact assessment included regional estimates years 2007-08 are published in table 4.2 on the HMRC for the number of housing benefit claimants living in website at: the social rented sector who were likely to be affected by http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/taxable_benefits/menu.htm 397W Written Answers8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 398W

Related information on the receipt of state support We are looking into ways of improving knowledge on by equivalised income quintile for working-age individuals the employment and benefit outcomes of ex-service for 2009-10 are published in Table 5.3 of the Households personnel. Below Average Income publication at: http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/hbai/hbai2010/ index.php?page=contents DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER Social Justice Directorate Electoral Register: Fraud Michael Dugher: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of the Chris Ruane: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister how proportion of his Department’s budget allocated to the many successful prosecutions for electoral registration Social Justice Directorate in (a) 2011-12, (b) 2012-13, fraud there were in each region in each of the last five (c) 2013-14 and (d) 2014-15. [85296] years. [85263]

Chris Grayling: The Department’s planned allocation Mr Harper: Electoral Commission figures show that set aside for the Social Justice Directorate across these the number of convictions for electoral registration years cannot be separately identified because priorities fraud across the United Kingdom over the last three and allocations are continuously reviewed. years was as follows:

Social Security Benefits Convictions

2008 1 Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for 2009 1 Work and Pensions what his policy is on support to 2010 — fund additional work for people who left benefit and meet the Work programme’s definition of in work but The Government do not collect or hold this data, but who will not receive working tax credit from April 2012 these statistics can be found in the Electoral Commission’s as a result of changes to the hours rule. [85602] ‘Analysis of cases of alleged electoral malpractice’ accessible through the following internet links: Chris Grayling: Work programme providers are paid http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/ for supporting people into work and helping them to pdf_file/0013/109012/Integrity-report-FINAL-no- stay there, for up to two years depending on the participants’ embargo.pdf circumstances. We have not specified what support the http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/ providers should give to participants once they find pdf_file/0020/83702/063-Allegations-Report-final.pdf work—we expect them to innovate and find the most http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/ effective way of supporting them, reflecting their individual pdf_file/0005/74588/Allegations-of-Electoral-Malpractice- circumstances. Web-Final.pdf The data has only been collected in this format since Unemployment 2008. Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what discussions he has had with Work programme providers since the publication of the Office CABINET OFFICE for Budget Responsibility’s new unemployment forecasts. [85549] Advisory Services

Chris Grayling: The DWP officials managing Work Yvonne Fovargue: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet programme contracts will be responsible for Office when his Department’s review of free advice communications with providers concerning the Office services will conclude; and when he expects to report for Budget Responsibility forecasts. the outcome of the review to the House. [85649]

Unemployment: Ex-servicemen Mr Hurd: The review of the free advice service sector announced on 21 November 2011 has now started and Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for will conclude early next year. An appropriate announcement Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of will be made at the relevant time. the (a) employability and (b) employment retention of veterans. [85694] Air Pollution: Cabinet Committees

Maria Miller: All new claimants for jobseekers allowance Barry Gardiner: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet are assessed by Jobcentre Plus staff to ensure the most Office (1) how many meetings of the (a) Home Affairs appropriate help is in place throughout their claim to and (b) Economic Affairs Cabinet Sub-Committees support their employability. have considered the effects of government policy on (i) The Department for Work and Pensions does not air quality and (ii) the natural environment since May routinely record whether benefit claimants are former 2010; [84029] armed forces personnel. Also, the Labour Force Survey (2) which Cabinet Sub-Committees have discussed does not record whether respondents are former armed plans for meeting EU air quality limit values under the forces personnel. Ambient Air Quality Directive. [84034] 399W Written Answers8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 400W

Richard Benyon: I have been asked to reply. Public Sector: Part-time Employment In line with the constitutional convention of collective decision-making, and section 2 of the Ministerial Code, Jessica Morden: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet the Government do not disclose details of the internal Office what estimate he has made of the proportion of process through which decisions are taken. public sector workers who work part-time in Wales; The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and and what proportion of such part-time workers are Rural Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for women. [85390] Meriden (Mrs Spelman), is responsible for air quality (with the Secretary of State for Transport, my right Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the hon. Friend the Member for Putney (Justine Greening)) responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have and the natural environment, and sits on the Economic asked the authority to reply. Affairs and Home Affairs Cabinet Committees, where a Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated December 2011: wide range of issues are discussed. As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I Charitable Donations: Fraud have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking what estimate he has made of the proportion of public sector workers who work part-time in Wales; and what proportion of Mr Marcus Jones: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet such part-time workers are women. 85390 Office what recent progress he has made in steps to For the period July-September 2011 the estimated proportion tackle charity bag doorstep collection fraud. [85508] of public sector workers in Wales who work part-time was 27 per cent. The proportion of these workers who were women was Mr Hurd: These crimes are unacceptable and risk 87 per cent. The estimates are derived from the Labour Force undermining the confidence of the generous donating Survey (LFS) and are not seasonally adjusted. As with any public. I continue to encourage and support collaborative sample survey, estimates from the LFS are subject to a margin of uncertainty. work between the charity sector, commercial recyclers, licensing and enforcement agencies, and government. In the LFS the distinction between public and private sector is based on respondents’ views about the organisation for which The National Fraud Intelligence Bureau has made good they work. The public sector estimates provided do not correspond progress in building intelligence and working with police to official Public Sector Employment estimates. Those are derived forces to tackle the criminal gangs that are behind much directly from employers and are based on National Accounts of this crime. I also know that the Fund Raising Standards definitions, but do not include a gender breakdown. Board (FRSB), in collaboration with other stakeholders, has just launched a new public awareness campaign to tackle bogus charity collections and encourage the public to give with care. The FRSB has written to Members of CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT this House inviting support for the campaign. Departmental Catering Government Departments: Databases Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State Mr Jenkin: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (1) whether pursuant to the autumn statement by the Chancellor of food and catering services in (a) his Department and the Exchequer of 29 November 2011, Official Report, (b) public bodies for which he is responsible plan to columns 799-810, and the paper Further Detail on implement calorie labelling on menus and display Open Data Measures in the Autumn Statement 2011, boards; [85836] what discussions he has had with the Office for (2) what steps the food and catering services in (a) National Statistics on each of the measures listed in the his Department and (b) public bodies for which he is paper prior to their announcement; what the outcome responsible are taking to ensure the country of origin was of the discussions on each such measure; and if he of foods are labelled on its menus and display boards. will make a statement. [85597] [85837]

Mr Maude: Comprehensive stakeholder engagement John Penrose: The Department does not source food was undertaken in developing open data measures which as part of its day to day business, following the closure were announced in the Chancellor’s autumn statement, of the staff canteen in December 2009. The Department including meeting with data users and the Office for for Culture, Media and Sport does not hold the information National Statistics. The ONS will continue to be a key requested for its public bodies. stakeholder for the Cabinet Office Transparency Team given their particular position providing national statistics. Departmental Public Expenditure Members: Correspondence Mr Byrne: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Sir Alan Beith: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Olympics, Media and Sport (1) how much his Department Office when he expects to reply to the letter of 19 July spent in (a) Birmingham, (b) Newcastle, (c) Wakefield, 2011 from the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (d) Manchester, (e) Leeds, (f) Liverpool, (g) Coventry, on a claim under the Civil Injury Benefit Scheme. (h) Bristol, (i) Sheffield, (j) Bradford, (k) Leicester [83162] and (l) Nottingham in the last financial year for which figures are available; [85447] Mr Maude: The Cabinet Office has no record of (2) how much funding his Department has allocated receiving a letter from the right hon. Member dated to Birmingham in (a) ring-fenced and (b) non-ring 19 July 2011. I have responded to his subsequent letter fenced funding grants for each of the next three years. on the same topic today. [85448] 401W Written Answers8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 402W

John Penrose: The Department for Culture, Media substantive response within (a) 10, (b) 20, (c) 30 and and Sport analyses funding on a regional basis and not (d) more than 30 sitting days in the 2010-12 session to by individual cities across the country. To identify funding date. [85919] by geographical location could be provided only at disproportionate cost. John Penrose: The Department for Culture, Media Departmental Written Questions and Sport received 1,973 ordinary written parliamentary questions for answer from the start of this parliamentary Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Session to 30 November 2011. The following table Olympics, Media and Sport how many and what proportion shows the proportion of questions which received of questions for ordinary written answer received a substantive replies within the timescale specified.

Number which received a substantive reply in: Ordinary written PQs tabled this Session 10 sitting days 20 sitting days 30 sitting days 30+ sitting days

1,973 1,768 (89.6%) 129 (6.5%) 76 (3.85%) 0

The Government have committed to providing the this independence, we continue to look to all media to Procedure Committee with information relating to written deal responsibly and sensitively to public concerns about parliamentary question performance on a sessional basis the portrayal of women and young people. and will provide full information to the Committee at The UK’s media regulatory system is one of the most the end of the Session. Statistics relating to Government robust in the world, aiming to strike the right balance Departments’ performance for the 2009-10 parliamentary between freedom of expression while ensuring media Session were previously provided to the Committee and content is acceptable. Under this system, the various are available on the Parliament website. bodies which regulate the media have set out a range of controls in relation to discriminatory treatment and the Gambling: Licensing portrayal of women. The role the media can play in presenting positive Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for portrayals of women is widely recognised by Government, Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what timetable he regulators and media organisations. As part of our has set for the introduction of a secondary gaming consideration of these issues the Violence Against Women licence for overseas gambling operators. [85506] and Girls Inter-Ministerial Group recently held a forum, organised with DCMS and chaired by the Secretary of John Penrose: We are committed to taking forward State for the Home Department, my right hon. Friend this legislation and will introduce it at the earliest the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), to discuss a opportunity. The Government have a very full legislative range of concerns about the representation of women programme, however, and we are pursuing all options. in the media. Horse Racing: Betting

Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport with reference to ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS the Gambling Act 2005, when he expects the full agreement between the racecourse bookmakers and (a) Arena Leisure and (b) Jockey Club Racing to be Air Pollution announced. [86037]

John Penrose: We understand that an agreement between Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for the racecourse bookmakers and Arena Leisure has been Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will consider reached. The discussions with Jockey Club Racing, publishing an air quality risk assessment for the purposes although progressing, are yet to be fully completed. of identifying the risks to the UK population of poor Departmental officials are in close and regular contact air quality and priority areas for action. [84127] with the Federation of Racecourse Bookmakers Ltd (FRB) and the Racecourse Association (RCA) over the Richard Benyon: Under the ambient air quality directive discussions. I strongly encourage both sides to find a (2008/50/EC) and the fourth daughter directive (2004/ way to reach agreement before the end of the year. 107/EC), in September each year the UK publishes a compliance assessment for the previous calendar year. Mass Media: Young People This identifies those parts of the UK where further action is needed to improve air quality. It is available on Lyn Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, the library section of the UK-Air website: Olympics, Media and Sport what discussions his http://uk-air.defra.gov.uk/ Department has had on the negative portrayal of teenagers, including teenage mothers, in the media. [84908] Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment Mr Vaizey: We are committed to a media free from she has made of the effects of poor air quality on Government intervention. However, while respecting different socio-economic groups. [84142] 403W Written Answers8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 404W

Richard Benyon: The Government have published (3) what assessment she has made of the potential reports analysing air quality and social deprivation, contribution of a National Framework for Low Emission which are publicly available on the UK-Air website: Zones to improving air quality. [84144] http://uk-air.defra.gov.uk/ The most recent report, ’Air Quality and Social Deprivation Richard Benyon: DEFRA is working closely with the in the UK: an environmental inequalities analysis’ is Department for Transport to investigate further measures from 2006. This highlights the complex relationship to reduce pollution from heavy goods vehicles (HGVs) between the distribution of pollutant concentrations and buses, including the feasibility of a national framework and areas of social deprivation, which depends on the for low emission zones. A report on the feasibility of pollutant in question and differs in the UK’s various developing a certification scheme for technology retrofitted cities and regions. to HGVs to abate nitrogen oxides emissions was published in November and is available on the UK-Air website: Air Pollution: EU Law http://uk-air.defra.gov.uk/ An assessment of technical measures needed to achieve Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for compliance with EU air quality limit values was undertaken, Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will which informed an impact assessment of a low emissions publish the minutes of each meeting her Department zone framework for inclusion in the time extension has had with the European Commission to discuss notification for compliance with the EU limit value for plans for meeting EU air quality limit values under the nitrogen dioxide. This impact assessment was published in June 2011 and is available on DEFRA’s website. ambient air quality directive. [84051] An assessment of the potential contribution of a Richard Benyon: In September DEFRA submitted national framework for low emission zones to improving air quality plans to the European Commission setting air quality was included in our air quality plans for out how the limit values for nitrogen dioxide are to be nitrogen dioxide. These plans were submitted to the met in the shortest possible time. The Commission has European Commission in September. The air quality up to nine months to assess these plans. DEFRA has plans are available on the library section of the UK-Air had no bilateral meetings with the Commission to website. discuss them. Coastal Areas: Access Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for Fiona O’Donnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether her Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent progress Department has completed an equalities impact assessment her Department has made on a timetable for the creation in respect of its air quality plans for the achievement of of coastal access pathways in England; and when such a EU air quality limit values for nitrogen dioxide. [84052] timetable will be published. [85311]

Richard Benyon: The air quality plans that were submitted Richard Benyon: We will introduce the new right of to the European Commission in September 2011 assessed coastal access on a 30 km stretch of the English coast the impact that relevant current and planned policies, between Portland and Lulworth Cove in Dorset in time and local air quality plans, were likely to have on for the Olympic and Paralympic sailing events, which concentrations of nitrogen dioxide. begin in July 2012. We are now at the stage of considering The need for an equalities impact assessment is considered the “appointed person’s” report and recommendations when decisions about new policies are being made. into the objections that were made to Natural England’s proposals. Biofuels: Pollution Natural England is also currently working on proposals to implement coastal access in a further five areas Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for around the coast. When proposals for the coastal route Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what plans her have been prepared in each of the five areas, Natural Department has to measure (a) black carbon and (b) England will start a period of local consultation. arsenic emissions from biomass generating plants. DEFRA is working closely with Natural England to [84138] look at how we move forward after Weymouth and the five other stretches. It is important that we have the Richard Benyon: I refer the hon. Member to the opportunity to look at the lessons learnt from the answer I gave him on 22 November 2011, Official current projects that are being implemented to make Report, column 302W. sure that coastal access is delivered as cost effectively as possible. Carbon Emissions Departmental Billing

Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for Dr Whiteford: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what discussions Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what proportion her Department has had with the Department for Transport of invoices from suppliers her Department paid within on the introduction of a national framework for low 10 days of receipt in July and August 2010. [74351] emission zones; [84049] (2) what estimate she has made of the cost to the Richard Benyon: During July and August 2010, 8,819 public purse of achieving EU air quality limit values for out of 8,892 valid invoices were paid by the Department nitrogen dioxide by 1 January 2015; [84050] within 10 days of receipt which equates to 99.18%. 405W Written Answers8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 406W

Departmental Buildings days each of the UK’s zones and agglomerations exceeded the legal limit for nitrogen dioxide in (a) 2010 and (b) Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State between 1 January 2011 and 31 October 2011; [84145] for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much (2) what estimate she has made of the number of has been spent on refurbishing and redecorating ministerial days each of the UK’s zones and agglomerations will offices in her Department since May 2010. [80269] exceed the legal limit for nitrogen dioxide in (a) each of the next three years and (b) 2020. [84146] Richard Benyon: There has been no expenditure incurred refurbishing and redecorating ministerial offices in DEFRA Richard Benyon: The legal limits for nitrogen dioxide since May 2010. (NO2) have been set for both one-hour and annual-average time periods, but not for periods of a day. The one-hour Departmental Chief Scientific Advisers limit value is exceeded if more than 18 hours exceed the limit at a monitoring site in a single year. A count of Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for days does not directly demonstrate whether or not the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what her policy is one-hour or annual limit values have been exceeded in a on requiring her Department’s (a) agencies and non- year and does not form part of any compliance assessment departmental public bodies and (b) contractors to have for nitrogen dioxide legal limits. a written code of practice or protocol relating to the Compliance assessments for 2010 for both the annual provision, conduct and quality assurance of scientific and one-hour NO2 limit values are available on the evidence and advice. [72470] library section of the UK-Air website: Richard Benyon: The information requested is as http://uk-air.defra.gov.uk/ follows: Where applicable, projections of compliance with the (a) DEFRA’s agencies and arm’s length bodies are expected one-hour and annual NO2 limit values for 2015 and to adopt good practice in the provision, conduct and quality 2020 were published as part of updated air quality assurance of scientific evidence and advice. A number have adopted plans submitted to the Commission in September 2011. internationally recognised or certified schemes, such as those These are also available on the UK-Air website. provided by ISO or the OECD standard for Good Laboratory Practice, and have written codes or procedures as required by those schemes, or follow national codes such as the UK Statistics Public Sector Authority’s Code of Practice for Official Statistics. Others have their own codes or procedures in place, tailored to reflect their Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for own circumstances, and consistent with guidelines issued by the Government chief scientific adviser on the use of scientific and Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what steps engineering advice in policy-making where these guidelines are she is taking to put in place a right to provide for public relevant. DEFRA’s Science Advisory Council operates in line sector workers to take over the running of services; and with the Code of Practice for Scientific Advisory Committees if she will make a statement; [74779] (currently being updated) and the Principles for Scientific Advice (2) what steps her Department has taken to encourage to Government. The guidelines, code of practice and principles referred to above are all available on the BIS website. the development of public service mutuals in its area of responsibility; and if she will make a statement. [74827] Given that DEFRA has different relationships and governance structures with its non-departmental public bodies (NDPBs) and agencies—for example some NDPBs have a statutory purpose to Richard Benyon: The “right to provide” was drawn to provide evidence and advice—DEFRA has not prescribed any the attention of all staff when the Open Public Services central policies regarding the provision, conduct and quality White Paper was published. A process for consideration assurance of evidence and advice for its arm’s length bodies. of employee-led mutual candidates is now being established. (b) DEFRA is a co-signatory to the Joint Code of Practice for Research (JCoPR—available on the BBSRC website), which sets World War II: Medals out principles for the quality of science and quality of the research process that research contractors sponsored by DEFRA must follow (if the JCoPR is not relevant to the proposed project, Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, e.g. social research or economics, suppliers are required to describe Food and Rural Affairs how many (a) Women’s Land what quality assurance measures they have in place). A number of Army and (b) Women’s Timber Corps lapel badges DEFRA’s arm’s length bodies are in the process of adopting the JCoPR. were awarded in (i) 2008, (ii) 2009, (iii) 2010 and (iv) 2011 to date. [85371] Nitrogen Dioxide Mr Paice: As at 1 December 2011 a total of 35,509 Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for badges had been issued to former members of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps her Women’s Land Army (WLA) and Women’s Timber Department is taking to ensure that nitrogen dioxide Corps (WTC). No distinction is made between those levels are within legal limits in all of the UK’s zones and who served in WLA and the WTC. The number of agglomerations by 1 January 2015. [84143] badges issued in each year was as follows:

Richard Benyon: I refer the hon. Member to the Badges issued answer I gave him on 21 November 2011, Official 2008 32,961 Report, column 186W. 2009 1,838 2010 476 Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for 2011 (to date) 234 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) how many 407W Written Answers8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 408W

TREASURY (COREs) are the beginning of a strengthened partnership between central Government and Local Enterprise Capital Allowances: North East Partnerships, to build on UK strengths in offshore wind. There is no spending commitment directly attached to COREs. Helen Goodman: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what estimate he has made of the cost to the public purse of the extension of 100 per cent. capital Stamp Duties allowances in the North East region. [85351]

Mr Gauke: The provision of 100% first year capital Mr Laws: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer allowances for qualifying expenditure in Enterprise Zones what recent estimate he has made of the (a) number in the North East Region is estimated to cost approximately and (b) proportion of houses sold for over £1 million £40 million over the next five years. on which stamp duty land tax was paid at the full rate in each of the last four years; and if he will make a Credit Cards: Fees and Charges statement. [85199]

John Thurso: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Miss Chloe Smith: Information on residential property what steps he plans to take to tackle excessive surcharges transactions priced at over £1 million for 2008, 2009 following the Office of Fair Trading’s recommendations and 2010 can be found in National Statistics table T16.1 on card payment charges. [84851] on the HMRC website www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/survey_of_prop/table16-1.pdf Mr Hoban: The Government are currently considering The corresponding figures for 2007 show a total of the Office of Fair Trading’s recommendations and will 1,613,000 residential property transactions in the UK, update the House in due course. with 16,000 of those priced at over £1 million. HMRC holds no data on residential property sales Excise Duties: Fuels where a land transaction return is not made. Simon Hart: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will estimate the cost to the public purse of Stamp Duties: Tax Evasion extending the fuel duty discount pilot scheme to rural areas of Wales. [85607] Chi Onwurah: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Miss Chloe Smith: I refer the hon. Member to the what recent estimate he has made of the level of tax answer I gave on 5 December 2011, Official Report, evasion on stamp duty; and what steps he is taking to column 69W,to my hon. Friend the Member for Skipton reduce the level of such stamp duty evasion. [85268] and Ripon (Julian Smith). Miss Chloe Smith: Stamp duty (as opposed to stamp National Savings and Investments: Post Offices duty land tax) applies to transfers of stock and marketable securities via a stock transfer form. Mr Weir: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer There is no liable person for stamp duty and no over what period he expects National Savings and statutory compulsion to present a document for stamping. Investments to withdraw its products from the Post So it is not appropriate to refer to ″evasion″ in this Office network. [85155] context. The sanctions against leaving a document unstamped Miss Chloe Smith: The majority of NS&I’s products are that it cannot then be used as evidence in UK court are already managed by customers directly with NS&I. proceedings (other than criminal proceedings) and that At the end of the final phase of NS&I’s modernisation penalties and interest are charged for late stamping. programme, in 2013, NS&I’s range of savings and investments will only be available direct from NS&I, apart from Premium Bonds which NS&I intends to Taxation: Gambling continue to offer through the Post Office.

Renewable Energy: North West Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what progress his Department has made in its plans to tax remote gambling companies by making Helen Goodman: To ask the Chancellor of the the taxable location the point of sale to the customer. Exchequer what estimate he has made of the cost to the [85507] public purse of (a) enhanced cap allowances and (b) public spending support to the Centres for Offshore Renewable Engineering at (i) Tees and (ii) Tyne. [85348] Miss Chloe Smith: On 18 July 2011, the Government announced their intention to review the taxation regime Miss Chloe Smith: The provision of 100% first year for remote gambling, looking at the case for taxing capital allowances for qualifying expenditure in the operators on the basis of customer location. Tees Valley and North East Enterprise Zones is estimated The initial review closed on 30 November 2011. All to cost approximately £40 million over the next five responses received are now being analysed. No decisions years. Centres for Offshore Renewable Engineering have been taken on whether to proceed with reform. 409W Written Answers8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 410W

HEALTH Connecting for Health (CfH) expenditure on management consultants for the financial year 2010-11 Requirement Accident and Emergency Departments Supplier name description 2010-11 total (£)

Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for DLA Piper UK LLP Legal Spend 4,281,795.33 Health (1) how many emergency readmissions there Milbank Tweed Hadley and Legal Spend 402,929.16 have been in each NHS primary care trust in each year McCloy LLP [85143] since 1997; QI Consulting OGC SACS 136,727.75 (2) what the emergency readmission rate within 28 days of discharge was for each acute trust in (a) 2009 Concerto Consulting OGC SACS 103,776.00 and (b) 2010. [85249] Eversheds LLP <£20,000 21,615.30

NHS Business Services <£20,000 14,875.79 Mr Simon Burns: Information is not available in the Authority precise form or for the periods requested. The available information will be collated and placed in the Library PA Consulting Services Ltd HR Strategy 8,042.77 as soon as possible. Bishops Beech Ltd ISO 20000 4,422.86 proj

Community Nurses Newcastle Upon Tyne <£20,000 750.00 Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust

Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for Samuel Phillips <£20,000 440.63 Health what estimate he has made of the average case load for district nurses (a) in each primary care trust Department For Work And <£20,000 254.09 area and (b) nationally in the latest period for which Pensions figures are available. [85165] Birmingham City Council <£20,000 126.90

Anne Milton: No estimate has been made centrally. It Total — 4,975,756.58 is for local national health service organisations to Core departmental expenditure on management consultants for the commission district nursing services and to determine current financial year 2011-12 (up to the present day) their case loads taking into account local needs and FY 2011-12 actual resources. Supplier name Requirement description spend to date (£) Allen and Legal Advice for Care 9,457 Overy provision Departmental Consultants Baker Tilly Legal Advice for Care 19,035 provision Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for Capita Estates transition 41,561 Health how much his Department has paid to (a) Symonds programme DLA Piper PICD-PIPP-FluLine-Legal 97,531 management consultants and (b) private health companies Advice—National Fluline since May 2010; and what services were paid for. [85246] Service Duerden Professor Duerden 138 Mr Simon Burns: The figures for expenditure on McKinsey NHS Transition Programme 200,300 external management consultants for the Department and Co of Health (this includes the core Department and Norton Rose Appointment of legal 22,912 Connecting for Health) for the last financial year 2010-11 Vieregge advisors on the sale of NHS are: Professionals Portico Technical advice to the CAF 68,591 From April 2010-11—£14.77 million. (Figures can only be programme provided for the full financial year). PWC Community Pharmacy Cost 46,050 From April 2011-12 (The current financial year, to date)— of Service Inquiry £5.48 million. Total — 505,575 The figure for expenditure on private health companies providing services for national health service patients CfH expenditure on management consultants for the current financial year 2011-12 (to October) through the independent sector treatment centres (ISTCs) Requirement since May 2010 is £282,179,000. Supplier name description 2011-12 total (£) A full breakdown of the information by cost, supplier and description for core Department of Health expenditure DLA Piper UK LLP Legal Spend 5,296,798 Milbank Tweed Hadley Legal Spend 780,999 for 2010-11 entitled ‘Core Department of Health external and Mccloy LLP consultancy expenditure for financial year 2010-11’ has QI Consulting <£20,000 24,018 been placed in the Library. Uncategorised Expenditure on management consultancies and private NHS Business Services <£20,000 Legal 16,793 health companies since April 2010, and the value and Authority supplier for each transaction (excluding core Department Bishops Beech Ltd ISO 20000 Project 3,281 of Health expenditure for 2010-11) is shown in the Total — 6,121,890 following tables. 411W Written Answers8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 412W

Core departmental expenditure on private health companies, providing services for NHS patients through the independent sector treatment centres since May 2010 Contract Description Value (£000)

D01—London Various direct access diagnostics (most likely to be MRI) delivered 34,706 from mobile units in London E01—Avon, Gloucester, Wiltshire Elective care, various specialties in Avon Gloucester, Wiltshire 51,147 E05—Cumbria and Lancashire Elective care, various specialties. 50,320 E06—Cheshire and Merseyside Elective care, various specialties 16,645 E08—Greater Manchester CATS Assessment services and minor procedures in the Manchester area 36,313 E09—Hampshire and Isle of Wight Elective care, various specialties 32,661 E15—Northumberland, Tyne and Wear Elective care, various specialties 11,680 E16—Renal Renal dialysis in the north of England 17,430 P8N—PET CY North PET/CT scans in the North of England. These are scans for 15,111 cancer and requested by oncologists P8S—PET CT South PET/CT scans in the South of England. These are scans for 16,166 cancer and requested by oncologists All schemes All Phase 2 ISTC Schemes from May 2010 to October 2011 282,179

Departmental Public Appointments and stipulates that they should not seek personal or private information such as membership of political Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Health parties. which public appointees to senior positions in (a) his Diabetes Department, (b) its executive agencies, (c) official reviews and (d) commissions of enquiry have declared Gareth Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for membership of the Conservative party in the latest Health what estimate he has made of the number of period for which figures are available; and if he will people with diabetes in (a) the UK, (b) Kent and (c) make a statement. [85266] Dartford constituency in each of the last five years. [85194] Mr Simon Burns: Information about the membership of political parties of appointees to senior positions in Paul Burstow: The full data set to be able to answer the Department and its public bodies is neither held nor this question accurately are not available. collected centrally. The following table shows the number of diabetes The Department complies with the Code of Practice registrations in National Diabetes Audit (NDA) data of the Commissioner for Public Appointments. This for England and Quality and Outcomes Framework requires that departments ask appointees to public bodies (QOF) diabetes registrations for England for the last for information which is already in the public domain, five years.

2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10

National Diabetes Audit England total1 655,953 1,221,814 1,423,669 1,658,409 1,929,985 Quality Outcomes Framework England 1,890,663 1,961,976 2,088,335 2,213,138 2,338,813 total2 1 The NDA contains people with diabetes (all types) of all ages, however it is not mandatory, and does not have 100% coverage or participation. 2 QOF data only contain patients aged 17 years and over with diabetes mellitus.

The following table shows the NDA data for each of Doctors: Vacancies the Kent primary care trusts (PCTs) for the last four years. Growth in numbers of registrations in NDA Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for needs to be assessed in the context of the growth in Health how many vacancies for junior doctors there coverage for the audit. QOF data are an aggregate were in each month since May 2010. [85241] return so do not contain the detail required to respond at this level. Anne Milton: We do not hold this information centrally.

PCT 2009-10 2008-09 2007-08 2006-07 Eating Disorders

Eastern and 26,669 22,526 21,433 18,570 Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Coastal Kent (a) PCT Health what recent discussions he has had with women’s groups and (b) men’s groups on treatment and support Medway PCT 13,038 12,321 1,935 2,538 available to (i) adults and (ii) children with eating disorders; West Kent 27,087 24,274 21,587 8,770 and if he will make a statement. [85144] PCT Paul Burstow: We are committed to improving mental Total 66,794 59,121 44,955 29,878 health among the whole population. That is why we are Data are not held at a constituency level. providing around £400 million over the next four years 413W Written Answers8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 414W to expand psychological therapies, with an annual £8 million Through the improvement of veteran-specific services investment to expand access to psychological therapies and awareness raising among health professionals, the to children and young people. Department hopes to ensure that veterans will get a Early intervention is essential for those with eating much better deal from their health services. disorders and we have been clear that general practitioners are expected to use National Institute for Health and Clinical Evidence guidance when choosing the most Health Visitors appropriate treatments, from physical and psychological treatments to medicines. Access to high-quality mental Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for health care, based on the best available evidence and Health (1) whether he plans to publish an annual delivered by staff with an appropriate range of skills report on the health visitor implementation plan, and competencies, is critical to meeting the specific 2011-15; [85577] needs of this group of people. (2) when he expects to publish his first quarterly The Government Equalities Office have begun a progress report on the health visitor workforce. [85578] campaign which aims to reduce the burdens that popular culture places on an individual’s well-being and self-esteem. Anne Milton: The Department will publish its first The Government have convened a group of experts annual report on the “Health Visitor Implementation to identify non-legislative solutions to tackling low Plan—A Call To Action 2011-15” by the end of this levels of body confidence. This includes representatives calendar year. from health care, fashion, beauty, media, advertising, The first quarterly report on progress relating to the and the voluntary sector. Government’s commitment on health visiting, “A Call to Action Health Visitor Implementation Plan Summary Health Progress Report”, was published on the Department’s website on 31 October 2011, and is available at: Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/ whether he has any plans to launch a revised public PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/DH_130856 health responsibility deal. [85595] A copy of the report has been placed in the Library. Anne Milton: There are no plans to launch a revised Public Health Responsibility Deal. The networks continue Health Visitors: Manpower to develop the next tranche of pledges that we expect will go much further and demand even greater commitment and action on the part of industry. Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many health visitors have returned to work Health Services: Ex-servicemen in the NHS in each of the last five years. [85576]

Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for Anne Milton: This information is not collected by the Health what mechanisms his Department has put in Department, however from January 2012, as part of the place to assess the level of access to health services by Health Visiting Minimum Data Set, the NHS Information Centre will be collecting the number of health visitors war veterans. [85242] who return to practice. Mr Simon Burns: The Department is currently working on a number of physical and mental health care improvement programmes for veterans, and their families. Health Visitors: Training These include, veteran-specific mental health services coming out of the implementation of the recommendations Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for of Dr Andrew Murrison’s ‘Fighting Fit report’; and the Health how many health visitors were in training in development of enhanced rehabilitation and prosthetics each of the last five years. [85574] services across England and the devolved Administrations in response to his latest report ‘ABetter Deal for Military Anne Milton: The following table shows the number Amputees’. The Department has committed significant of health visitors in training in each of the last five sums of money to this work: £7.2 million in respect of years: Fighting Fit, and £15 million for the prosthetic care improvements. Health visitor training commissions 2006-07 to 2010-11 Actual commissions It should also be noted that the Department has taken steps towards ensuring that more general practitioner 2006-07 391 (GPs) are made aware of the specific health care needs 2007-08 269 of service personnel. These include, the setup of armed 2008-09 433 forces networks in the 10 existing strategic health authority 2009-10 514 areas, through which national health service staff and 2010-11 545 forces representatives can plan the care of their local Source: military and veterans’ populations; and the launch of Quarterly strategic health authority financial management returns an e-learning package in conjunction with the Royal College of General Practitioners, to raise GPs awareness Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for of the types of health care needs veterans with which Health what plans he has for changes to the content of veterans are likely to present. health visitor higher education programmes. [85575] 415W Written Answers8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 416W

Anne Milton: In order to achieve the best outcomes in enforcement action can best ensure that the intended health visitor education for both staff and patients benefits of the legislation for consumers and for companies alike, the Department is working closely with education compliant with the legislation are achieved. commissioners and the higher education sector to review the content of health visitor educational programmes. HIV Infection The purpose of this collaborative working is to ensure that curricula and practice are aligned with the service Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Health vision set out in ‘The Health Visitor Implementation what steps he took to mark World AIDS day 2011. Plan 2011-15, A Call to Action’. A copy has already [85453] been placed in the Library. Health: Salt Anne Milton: World AIDS day provides the opportunity for people to unite to show their support for people Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health living with HIV and to commemorate people who have whether he plans to revise the targets for salt reduction died. To mark World AIDS day I spoke at a reception contained in the public health responsibility deal. held by the Terrence Higgins Trust and hosted by my [85596] noble Friend, Lord Fowler, on 29 November. The Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister Anne Milton: The Government have no plans currently both recorded a video message for World AIDS day. to revise the Responsibility Deal salt targets; partners who have signed up to the salt reduction pledge have Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Health until 2012 to meet the targets. what steps his Department is taking to reduce HIV Salt reduction is a key priority of the Public Health infection rates; and what steps he plans to take to Responsibility Deal. As part of its work programme for enable people who are most at risk of contracting HIV 2012-13, the High Level Steering Group of the Food to participate in a comprehensive testing and education Network will consider what further actions are necessary regime. [85555] to ensure continued progress towards the public health goal to reduce people’s average salt consumption to no Anne Milton: The Department continues to fund more than 6 grams of salt/person/day for adults and targeted programmes of work on prevention for the less for children. groups most at risk of HIV in the United Kingdom and Herbal Medicine: EU Law these highlight the importance of HIV testing. Additionally, in February 2011, the National Institute of Health and Clinical Excellence published its recommendations on Simon Reevell: To ask the Secretary of State for increasing the offer of HIV testing to men who-have-sex- Health (1) what discussions officials in his Department with-men and black African communities which we have had with the Medicines and Healthcare products welcome. Regulatory Agency on enforcement of the EU Directive on Traditional Herbal Medicinal Products (Directive Increasing the offer and uptake of HIV testing in a 2004/24/EC); when such discussions took place; and if variety of health care settings, both primary and secondary, he will make a statement; [85172] is important to reduce undiagnosed HIV.We are considering the findings of the Time to Test report, which was (2) how many companies have been investigated by published by the Health Protection Agency in September the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency this year which assessed the feasibility and acceptability for selling herbal medicinal products as food supplements of routinely offering HIV testing in eight pilot projects in the last 12 months; when he expects each investigation that were funded by the Department. We are also funding to reach a conclusion; whether the product investigated a three year project by the Medical Foundation for will be removed from sale immediately if they are found AIDS and Sexual Health to produce an interactive tool to have breached the regulations; and if he will make a to support general practitioners and primary care staff statement. [85173] in offering HIV testing. Mr Simon Burns: There have been no discussions between Ministers or officials with the Medicines and Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) how many (a) young adults and (b) people were specifically about the enforcement of Directive 2004/24/EC. diagnosed with HIV in each of the last five years. It is possible that the subject has been discussed in the [85614] context of how the end of the section 12(2) exemption in the Medicines Act 1968 would impact on herbal Anne Milton: The number of new HIV diagnoses practitioners but such discussions would have been reported in England in young adults, aged 15 to 24 and incidental to the main issue of practitioner regulation. people of all ages, in each of the last five years, are The classification of products as medicines is made on a shown in the following table: case-by-case basis by the MHRA. The MHRA does not hold information on how many herbal medicines have Age group 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 been presented as food supplements. Action taken by 15 to 24 742 733 700 633 631 the MHRA will depend on the nature of the breach of years regulation and any danger to public health posed by the Total—all 6,936 6,735 6,665 6,082 6,108 product; this can include requiring the product to be ages removed immediately from the market. The MHRA is Note: currently considering how effective, proportionate Diagnoses are from reports received to end June 2011. 417W Written Answers8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 418W

Injuries: Dogs Medical Treatments: Lasers

Gloria De Piero: To ask the Secretary of State for Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Health how many children under 16 years were what assessment he has made of the provision of admitted to hospital because of injuries received from a specialist training for the use of class four laser dog in England and Wales in (a) 2011 and (b) 2010. treatment in the private therapy sector; and if he will [85571] make a statement. [85695]

Mr Simon Burns: In 2010-11, there were 1,481 finished Mr Simon Burns: Following deregulation of providers admission episodes1 (FAEs) for children under 16 in of class 3B and class 4 lasers lights in 2010, the Department England with a cause code2 of bitten or struck by dog. supported creation of an industry led, assurance scheme In 2009-10, there were 1,382 FAEs for children under 16 whose objectives include publication of a set of accepted in England with a cause code of bitten or struck by dog. essential standards and a model training programme The Department does not collect information on the for educators to use. Work to develop these standards is devolved Administrations. being co-ordinated by the Independent Healthcare Advisory Ministers in the Department for Environment, Food Service. and Rural Affairs have been working closely with Government and non-government organisations to prepare Meningitis: Vaccination a package of measures to encourage more responsible dog ownership and reduce dog attacks. This work is Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for nearing completion and an announcement will be made Health pursuant to the answer of 6 September 2011, by that Department shortly. Official Report, column 580W,on meningitis: vaccination, 1 A finished admission episode (FAE) is the first period of whether his Department has received the Joint Committee in-patient care under one consultant within one health care on Vaccination and Immunisation’s recommendation provider. FAEs are counted against the year in which the admission on meningococcal B vaccination. [85024] episode finishes. Admissions do not represent the number of in-patients, as a person may have more than one admission within the year. Anne Milton: The Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation (JCVI) is continuing to assess carefully 2 A supplementary code that indicates the nature of any external cause of injury, poisoning or other adverse effects. Only the first the impact and cost effectiveness of a potential vaccination external cause code which is coded within the episode is counted programme against meningococcal B bacteria. The in Hospital Episode Statistics. Cause code used: W54—Bitten or conclusions of JCVI’s assessment are not expected until struck by dog. early 2013 at the very earliest. Lee Communications and Public Affairs Mental Health Services Chris Skidmore: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what meetings Ministers in his Department had Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health with (a) Kevin Lee and (b) representatives of Lee pursuant to the answer of 30 November 2011, Official Communications Public Affairs Limited between July Report, columns 961-2W, on mental health services, 2009 and May 2010; and what the (i) date, (ii) names of when he expects the National Liaison and Diversion those attending and (iii) subject of each meeting was. Programme to complete its mapping exercise of mental [85515] health service provision in England. [85193]

Mr Simon Burns: Details of all ministerial meetings Paul Burstow: The National Liaison and Diversion with external parties are published quarterly in arrears Programme is expected to complete the mapping exercise on the Department’s website. Data from 1 January 2010 by April 2012. up to the end of March 2011 can be found at: www.dh.gov.uk/en/Aboutus/ Mental Health Services: Ex-servicemen MinistersandDepartmentLeaders/Departmentdirectors/ DH_110759 Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for No data are held prior to this date. Health what specialist mental health services are Mass Media provided for armed forces veterans. [85248]

Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Simon Burns: At least one in four people experience Health how much his Department has spent on media a mental health problem at some point in their life and mental ill-health represents up to 23% of the total monitoring since May 2010. [85195] burden of ill health in the United Kingdom—the largest Mr Simon Burns: The Department spend on media single cause of illness. The Government are committed monitoring since May 2010 is provided in the following to the health and welfare of people serving in the armed table: forces, both during and after their time in service. This is part of rebuilding the Military Covenant, which is the Spend since May 20101 (£) basis for government policy aimed at improving the support available for the armed forces community. While Press cuttings 164,797.28 the majority of service personnel do not experience Media monitoring 125,544.16 mental health problems, mental health services still 1 Exclusive of VAT have a key role to play in fulfilling this covenant. 419W Written Answers8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 420W

Shortly after coming into power, the current Government centre able to listen to and record events in a way that is commissioned my hon. Friend the Member for South legally admissible in prosecution cases that arise from West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison) to carry out a report into incidents. the mental health provision made for serving personnel Where violent incidents do occur, NHS Protect is and veterans. ‘Fighting Fit’ was published in October committed to ensuring that tough action, including 2010, and the Government immediately accepted all of appropriate sanctions, is taken against those who are its recommendations. The Department also announced violent and aggressive toward NHS staff. A new joint a spending commitment of £7.2 million over the spending working agreement between NHS Protect, the Association review period, to implement these recommendations. of Chief Police Officers and the Crown Prosecution The Department is working closely with the Ministry of Service aims to ensure that criminal assaults are identified Defence, the national health service, Combat Stress and and do not go unpunished. others to deliver the recommendations made by Dr Murrison in his report ‘Fighting Fit’. Excellent progress has been made against almost all of these, and the work Nutrition: EU Law will continue. Work includes, the launch of a 24-hour veterans’ helpline; the launch of an online early intervention peer support wellbeing and counselling service; and a Yasmin Qureshi: To ask the Secretary of State for commissioning increase in specifically targeted mental Health what steps he is taking to implement European health professionals within the NHS. Commission Regulation (EC) No 41/2009 on the gluten content of food. [85673]

NHS: Buildings Anne Milton: The Foodstuffs Suitable for People Intolerant to Gluten (England) Regulations 2010, were Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for laid before Parliament on 20 September 2010 and come Health from which planned NHS building projects his into force on 1 January 2012. Department has withdrawn support in the last 12 months. [85142] Orphan Drugs Mr Simon Burns: The Department monitors progress and approves business cases for major capital investment Mr Timpson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health schemes (above a delegated approval limit of £35 million) (1) what steps he has taken to ensure that the criteria taken forward by national health service trusts. None of used by the National Institute for Health and Clinical these schemes have been stopped or cancelled in the last Excellence and the Advisory Group for National Specialised 12 months. Services for the selection of medicines for assessment complement one another to avoid duplication or omission; NHS: Crimes of Violence [85256] (2) what his policy is on broadening the definition of Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for orphan medicines that the Advisory Group for National Health what steps he is taking to prevent attacks on Specialised Services will accept into its assessment process; NHS staff. [85250] [85257] (3) if he will extend the capacity of the Advisory Mr Simon Burns: The Department has a zero tolerance Group for National Specialised Services to conduct approach to violence against national health service assessments of orphan medicines. [85258] staff. NHS Protect leads work to deter and prevent violence Mr Simon Burns: The majority of new drugs and and aggression against NHS staff in England. significant licence extensions are considered through Employers have a duty to identify and address risks the topic selection process for the National Institute for to their staff. NHS Protect offers policy and operational Health and Clinical Excellence’s (NICE) technology guidance and assistance on this to NHS bodies and appraisal programme, against published criteria. In certain provides training for locally based security specialists. cases NICE will consider sending high cost low volume Following enactment of the Criminal Justice and drugs for the treatment of rare conditions to the Advisory Immigration Act 2008, NHS Protect manage the provision Group for National Specialised Services (AGNSS) for of training to staff in the use of new powers to remove consideration for possible inclusion in the arrangements from hospital premises those causing a nuisance or for national specialised commissioning. NICE and the disturbance, in order to tackle lower level nuisance secretariat to AGNSS work very closely together. behaviour and stop it from escalating into violence. The orphan drug legislation is a European Commission Conflict resolution training has been provided for Regulation (No. 141/2000) and was introduced to include frontline NHS staff in all sectors in the skills needed to a specific incentive which provides for a period of recognise and defuse potentially violent situations before market exclusivity for a company which develops an they become more serious. NHS Protect are reviewing orphan drug. the national training syllabus and standard. As an independent body NICE is responsible for NHS Protect manage the provision of a lone worker developing its technology appraisal methodology. NICE alarm service for NHS staff who work alone. Over has appraised a number of designated orphan medicines 40,000 NHS staff are using this service, which enables where they have met the published criteria for referral. lone workers to signal covertly for help from emergency Funding to enable AGNSS to consider high cost low services if needed and which provides a system control volume drugs is met from within its running costs. 421W Written Answers8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 422W

TRANSPORT We have previously announced that the line between Liverpool and Manchester via the Chat Moss route Airports: Retail Trade would be electrified and have given the go-ahead for the Ordsall Chord scheme in Manchester. Mr Donohoe: To ask the Secretary of State for These investments, which are vital to the delivery of Transport if she will assess the effects of the one-bag the Northern Hub strategy, will provide the opportunity rule for hand luggage operated by airlines on the level for train operators to provide a direct fast service between of airport retail sales; and if she will make a statement. Liverpool and Newcastle up to 45 minutes quicker than [85026] today. Railway Stations: Manpower Mrs Villiers: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave the hon. Member for North West Leicestershire (Andrew Bridgen) on 5 September 2011, Official Report, Teresa Pearce: To ask the Secretary of State for column 209W. Transport how many station staff on average were employed at railway stations in category (a) A, (b) B, Mr Donohoe: To ask the Secretary of State for (c) C, (d) D and (e) E in the most recent 12 months Transport what information her Department holds on for which figures are available. [85598] the number of people employed in the airport retail Mrs Villiers: The Department does not hold this sector at each UK airport. [85028] information.

Mrs Villiers: The Department does not hold any such Rescue Services information. Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Electric Vehicles: Bicycles Transport whether the invitation to tender for search and rescue helicopters includes a requirement that Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport helicopters be equipped with night vision goggles. what assessment she has made of the number of accidents [85586] involving scooter-style electric bicycles, in each of the last three years. [85604] Mike Penning: The UK Search and Rescue Helicopters project has an output based requirement including the Mike Penning: Electrically assisted bicycles are not requirement to operate aircraft safely at low level at identified as a separate element in accident statistics. night and in low light conditions in both the maritime and overland environments. The contractor must also Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for enable the aircrew (pilots and rear-crew) to conduct Transport whether she has plans to review the rules aided visual searches. It is for the contractor to develop regulating the licensing and use of scooter-style electric solutions to meet these requirements. However, it is bicycles. [85605] highly unlikely that the contractor could meet these requirements without the use of night vision aids. The Mike Penning: A public consultation on electric cycle Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) already permits the use legislation (The Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycle Regulations of night vision devices in civilian registered aircraft SI 1168/1983) was completed in March 2010. The legislation subject to the demonstration of adequate training processes was also considered under the Road Transport theme of and safe operating procedures. the Red Tape Challenge initiative. The Department will shortly be publishing a summary of consultation responses Severn River Crossing and a statement on next steps. The Department is also negotiating a new EU regulation Jessica Morden: To ask the Secretary of State for on two, three and light four wheel vehicles, including Transport how much money has been raised by Severn certain types of electric cycles. The outcome of these River Crossing in each of the last five years; how much discussions are expected to conclude during the summer has been paid to Severn River Crossing plc in each of 2012. Decisions reached at EU level may affect how we the last five years; and how much remains to be paid to regulate certain electric cycles in GB. Severn River Crossing plc in the remainder of the current concession period. [85692]

Northern Rail Mike Penning: Severn River Crossing plc’s (SRC) accounts are publicly available and are placed in the Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for House Library. SRC’s toll revenues (net of VAT) for the Transport what steps she is taking to improve Northern past five years are: Rail connectivity between Liverpool and Newcastle; and what recent progress she has made on the Northern £ million Hub. [85273] 2006 72.0 2007 76.1 Mrs Villiers: In the recent autumn statement, the 2008 77.6 Chancellor of the Exchequer announced the electrification 2009 77.4 of the north Trans-Pennine route between Manchester 2010 76.0 and York. 423W Written Answers8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 424W

SRC was paid the following amounts for work which Launching a third round of the Green Bus Fund, under which the concessionaire is not liable for under the terms of up to a further £25 million is being made available for the the agreement. This relates primarily to mitigation works purchase of low carbon emission buses. for the corrosion of the main suspension cables on the Announcing a new £8 million green truck fund to pump prime original Severn Bridge. investment in low emission HGVs and their supporting infrastructure.

£ million

2006-07 3.8 INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT 2007-08 4.2 Departmental Civil Proceedings 2008-09 6.5 2009-10 3.5 2010-11 3.2 Mr Jenkin: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development which organisations that have received As of 30 June 2011, the cumulative amount collected funding from his Department have brought legal from the tolls during the concession period was proceedings against his Department in the last five £752.1 million (in July 1989 prices). The concession years; which such organisations were not successful in period ends when SRC has archived cumulative revenue their actions; and whether his Department (a) applied of £995.83 million (in July 1989 prices, gross of operating and (b) was paid for costs in respect of such cases. costs). The remaining amount to be collected is [83891] £243.7 million in July 1989 prices, or about £502 million in current prices. Mr Andrew Mitchell: In the last five years the Department for International Development (DFID) has had no Transport: Exhaust Emissions legal proceedings brought against it by organisations receiving DFID funding. Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what assessment she has made of the effect Departmental Responsibilities on UK carbon emissions of the level of investment in (a) rail and (b) road set out in the autumn statement. Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for [85347] International Development what steps his Department is taking to ensure social value is included when Norman Baker: All transport investments over £100,000 services are commissioned by (a) his Department and included in the autumn statement are subject to assessment, (b) its public bodies; and if he will make a statement. in line with the Department’s guidance. [85660] The Transport Business Case, which sets out the Department’s approach to producing business cases to Mr Andrew Mitchell: The Department for International inform ministerial decisions, is available here: Development is taking a number of steps to ensure social value is included when services are commissioned: http://www.dft.gov.uk/about/howthedftworks/ transportbusinesscase/ An action plan for small and medium-sized enterprises has been developed; Guidance on the detailed appraisal of transport projects in respect of their greenhouse gas emissions is also Our support for the Greening Government sustainable procurement targets; published in the Department’s appraisal guidance (“webTAG”). The latest guidance is published at: Business cases for the procurement of services include an assessment of social impact; http://www.dft.gov.uk/webtag/documents/expert/ unit3.3.5.php All tenders state DFID’s wish to work with suppliers who demonstrate Corporate Social Responsibility (CSR) by taking The Government’s Carbon Plan was published on account of economic, social and environmental factors that are in 1 December and available here: compliance with International Labour Organisation (ILO) core http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/tackling/carbon_plan/ standards on labour and social matters. carbon_plan.aspx Ethiopia: Politics and Government The Carbon Plan sets out how we will deliver on our Climate Change Act 2050 target and intermediate carbon budgets. Transport will make a major contribution to Steve Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for reducing UK GHG emissions, with the ultimate aim of International Development what assessment he has substantially decarbonising land transport by 2050. made of the effect of aid on standards of governance in Ethiopia. [85264] The autumn statement announced several policies which will help to reduce transport’s GHG emissions, Mr Andrew Mitchell: Ethiopia has a capable government including: that is demonstrably committed to addressing poverty. Providing a further £50 million to be used by local transport It has an impressive record of pro-poor spending and authorities for transport improvement schemes many of which sound financial management. will have focal environmental benefits. Development assistance to Ethiopia has had a notably Bringing forward the electrification of the North Trans-Pennine route from Manchester to York via Leeds, which will deliver positive impact on standards of governance in Ethiopia. significant carbon savings as well as reliability and journey time For instance, in the four years to 2010, support from benefits. international partners has helped deliver a threefold Supporting low-carbon rail freight by making it easier to get increase in tax revenues; dramatic increases in the efficiency new rail freight terminals built, and providing an additional of regional and federal courts and a 50% reduction in £55 million to improve rail connectivity to Felixstowe Port. delivery times for a range of basic services. Development 425W Written Answers8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 426W assistance has also trained and equipped the Ombudsman, Nick Harvey: The average amount spent on academic Anti-Corruption Commission, Houses of Parliament, education and non-military training at the Army Office of the Auditor General and other institutions Foundation College Harrogate, based on the last completed that play an increasingly important role in ensuring the course (September 2010 to August 2011), was £3,650 Government remain accountable to their citizens. per successful recruit. Comparable figures for the Army Technical Foundation EU Aid: Family Planning College Winchester are not held in the format requested but the total average expenditure for all training provided Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for at this college, including military training, was £5,650 International Development if he will take steps to encourage per successful recruit over the same period. his EU counterparts to increase aid for family planning above 0.4 per cent. of the total EU aid budget. [85518] Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what proportion of recruits enlisting in the Mr Andrew Mitchell: The UK Government are working Armed Forces aged 18 years or younger attended closely with member states and the European Commission the Army Technical Foundation College Winchester in to increase EU support for family planning. We know the latest period for which figures are available. [85334] that 215 million women in the developing world, who would like to delay or avoid a pregnancy, do not have Nick Harvey: The Army Technical Foundation College access to modern family planning methods. Winchester was established in September 2010 to deliver In November 2010, the EU pledged ¤23 million to phase 1 training to junior soldiers aspiring to join the the United Nations Population Fund’s (UNFPA’s) Global Technical Corps in the Army. Programme for Reproductive Health Commodity Security Between the period 1 September 2010 to 30 September (GPRHCS). 2011 a total of 3,745 under-18s commenced phase 1 Last week, the coalition Government announced training with the Army, of which 950 (25.4%) attended additional support for contraceptive supplies to this the Army Technical Foundation College Winchester. programme, to help prevent 2 million unintended pregnancies and avert nearly 220,000 unsafe abortions. Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what proportion of staff at (a) the Army Tristan da Cunha Foundation College Harrogate and (b) the Army Technical Foundation College Westminster have Qualified Teacher Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Status or Qualified Teacher Learning and Skills Status. International Development whether he plans to visit [85335] Tristan da Cunha. [84589] Nick Harvey: There are 379 military and civilian staff Mr Andrew Mitchell: No. employed at the Army Foundation College Harrogate involved in the delivery of training to junior soldiers. 42 civilian staff provide vocational education in functional DEFENCE skills for mathematics, English and IT. All 42 have qualified teacher status. There are also nine military Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations education and training Service officers who are fully qualified teachers. Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence 1 assume the hon. Member is referring to the Army how many individuals attached to UK military operations Technical Foundation College Winchester, where there in Afghanistan are employed through private contractors; are 150 military and civilian staff involved in the delivery what proportion of UK military staff in Afghanistan of training to junior soldiers. There are four civilian this represents; and if he will make a statement. [85089] teachers providing the academic foundation required Nick Harvey: The Ministry of Defence employs around for recruits to succeed at their chosen trades in phase 2 5,200 individuals in Afghanistan through private training, all of whom either hold the qualified teacher contractors, with around a further 1,000 directly-employed learning and skills status or are working towards it. local people. These work directly and indirectly in support There are also three military education and training of operations but none is employed in a combat role. Service officers who are fully qualified teachers. UK force levels in Afghanistan are currently 9,500. Armed Forces: Germany Contractors and locally employed civilians play an important and valued role in the operation, undertaking Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for roles that are more economically or appropriately Defence pursuant to the answer of 4 May 2011, Official undertaken by contracted personnel. We keep under Report, columns 819-20W, on Armed Forces: Germany, review the roles they play and the scale of contracted what recent discussions officials in his Department have effort in the light of the evolving operation. had with local authorities on the basing and estates Armed Forces: Education issues arising from the rebasing from Germany; and whether any local authorities have requested additional Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for funding as a consequence of such rebasing. [85570] Defence what the average expenditure per recruit on academic education and non-military related training is Nick Harvey: Preliminary discussions have taken place for recruits at (a) the Army Foundation College Harrogate with a number of local authorities affected by the and (b) the Army Technical Foundation College rebasing from Germany. It is too early at this time to Winchester. [85333] comment on specific issues. 427W Written Answers8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 428W

As of 6 December 2011, the Ministry of Defence was review, announced by the previous Secretary of State not aware of any local authorities requesting additional for Defence, my right hon. Friend the Member for funding. North Somerset (Dr Fox) on 18 July 2011, Official Report, columns 643-45, confirmed our intent to continue Armed Forces: Housing to drive efficiencies across the whole of the estate. Scottish industries, like those across the UK, play a Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for vital role in ensuring our armed forces are equipped Defence how many service personnel and their families with the capabilities they require at reasonable cost to are waiting for married quarters accommodation in the the UK taxpayer. greater Portsmouth area. [85237] Departmental Civil Proceedings Mr Robathan: There are no service personnel families waiting for service family accommodation in the greater Mr Jenkin: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Portsmouth area. which organisations that have received funding from However, as part of the normal cyclic housing his Department have brought legal proceedings against accommodation, 16 families have applied for his Department in the last five years; which such accommodation in the Portsmouth area and these families organisations were not successful in their actions; and will be allocated a home within the standard 15 days. whether his Department (a) applied and (b) was paid for costs in respect of such cases. [83884] Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many married quarters in (a) Fareham, Mr Robathan: There have been no occasions since (b) Gosport and (c) Portsmouth were handed back to 2007 when the Ministry of Defence (MOD) was involved Annington Homes in each of the last five years. [85238] in legal proceedings with an organisation that received funding from the MOD. Mr Robathan: The number of service family Departmental Communication accommodation properties in Fareham, Gosport and Portsmouth handed back to Annington Homes Ltd are Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for shown in the following table: Defence how many (a) press officers, (b) internal communications officers, (c) external communications Fareham Gosport Portsmouth officers, (d) communications strategy officers and (e) 2007 0 0 0 other positions with a communications remit were 2008 0 0 1 employed by (i) his Department, (ii) its agencies and 2009 0 0 0 (iii) each non-departmental public body sponsored by 2010 0 0 0 his Department on the most recent date for which 2011 0 85 0 figures are available. [84175]

Defence Mr Robathan: Communicators are employed across defence and the armed forces. They have an important Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for task in explaining to the public, the media, our own Defence what recent assessment he has made of (a) the people and other audiences—at the local regional, national defence estate and (b) military industry in (i) Scotland and international levels—the role of defence, defence and (ii) the UK. [83349] activities, capabilities and operations. The main effort for defence communicators at present is explaining our Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence (MOD) keeps mission in Afghanistan. its estate under constant review to meet present and The latest figures for the numbers involved in planned future requirements. Surplus assets are disposed communications roles as at 31 March 2011 are shown in of as quickly as possible in accordance with Treasury the following table, and include all posts for which over guidelines. The outcome of the Department’s basing 50% of the post’s core duties are communications:

MOD/armed forces Trading funds1 Non-departmental public bodies

Press Officers 108 6 0 Internal Communications Officers 39 4 0 External Communications Officers 334 20 2 Communications Strategy Officers 62 5 1 Other 106 4 0 1 As at 31 March 2011. Includes 27 full time posts in the Met Office which has since transferred to the Department for Business Innovation and Skills.

These figures include both military and civilian posts Departmental Procurement worldwide. They represent a reduction of over 60 communications posts compared with 31 March 2010. Further savings have been made across the communications Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for area during the course of the current financial year and Defence what proportion of contracts awarded through more substantial reductions are planned for future years. the framework agreement technical support process have been internally audited in the last 12 months. [82056] 429W Written Answers8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 430W

Peter Luff [holding answer 23 November 2011]: A Nick Harvey: The UK played an important and Defence Internal Audit report published in November substantial part in Exercise Bersama Lima, a Five Power 2011 reviewed the Framework Agreement for Technical Defence Arrangements joint exercise held in Singapore Support (FATS) for the period from April 2009 to and Malaysia from 17 October to 4 November 2011. March 2011. Of 2,580 tasks placed through FATS Four RAF Typhoons, one RAF VC-10, two contracted during this period, a sample of 42 (1.5%) was considered. DA-20 aircraft and approximately 150 UK personnel participated in the Exercise. The total cost is estimated Departmental Property at £3.13 million, although this is subject to change as the recovery of RAF aircraft and personnel is not yet complete. This figure does not include the costs of Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for manpower or the separately funded flying hours for the Defence how many of his Department’s properties are RAF aircraft. occupied in (a) Portsmouth, (b) Fareham and (c) Gosport. [85236] Membership of the Five Power Defence Arrangements, which recently commemorated its fortieth anniversary, Mr Robathan: The number of properties occupied in remains the focus of the Ministry of Defence’s engagement Portsmouth, Fareham and Gosport as of 1 November in south east Asia. This demonstrates the UK’s continuing 2011 is shown in the following table: commitment to security in south east Asia and the wider region, which is an increasingly important part of Number the world, and provides regular and beneficial opportunities for joint exercises with Australia, Malaysia, New Zealand Gosport 940 and Singapore. The exercise also provided an opportunity Fareham 401 to showcase the Typhoon export campaign in the region. Portsmouth area 1,431 Military Bases: Planning Permission Ex-servicemen: Employment Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence which of the sites owned by his Department Defence what assessment his Department has made of and earmarked for housing development as indicated the effect of service in the armed forces on (a) employability in the written ministerial statement of 21 November and (b) employment retention of veterans. [83823] 2011 on housing reform have existing planning permission. [R] [84359] Mr Robathan [holding answer 29 November 2011]: Approximately 95% of service leavers succeed in gaining Mr Robathan: As part of the Government’s overall employment within six months of discharge. This is housing plan, the Ministry of Defence published its clear evidence that employers value the unique skills, Interim Land and Property Disposal Strategy on 5 October experiences and sense of reliability and discipline which 2011, a copy of which is available in the Library of the military life has instilled into service leavers. House, and at the following web address: http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/MicroSite/DIO/Our HMS Protector Publications/CorporateInformation/DefenceInfrastructure InterimLandAndPropertyDisposalStrategy.htm Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for The document contains an indicative disposal programme Defence what the total monetary cost was of HMS and, where appropriate, the current planning status on Protector from acquisition to operational readiness. those sites. [85235] Military Provost Guard Service Peter Luff: I am pleased to confirm that as scheduled HMS Protector left Her Majesty’s Naval Base Portsmouth, to commence her first Antarctic deployment, on 28 Mr Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence November 2011. what assessment he has made of the adequacy of the strength of the Military Provost Guard Service in The contract for the lease of HMS Protector, which relation to its responsibilities. [80392] commenced in March of this year and is worth £26 million over three years, includes the acquisition of the vessel and full contractor support. The Ministry of Mr Robathan: The current strength of the Military Defence spent a further £3.7 million converting HMS Provost Guard Service (MPGS) is around 2,550, against Protector for military use. It is not possible to separately a current requirement for 3,214. Recruitment action is identify other operating costs during her conversion being taken to reduce the shortfall. Guarding requirements period, such as the fuel used to conduct her sea trials or are kept under constant review and capability gaps are her crew training. covered, where necessary, by regular service personnel.

Joint Exercises: Costs RAF St Athan: Airlines

Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State Defence if he will estimate the cost to the public purse for Defence whether he has considered the merits of of the UK’s participation in Exercise Bersama Lima. allowing the use of RAF St Athan by private airlines; [81100] and if he will make a statement. [84714] 431W Written Answers8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 432W

Mr Robathan: An arrangement has existed since 2004 Departmental Audit whereby parts of St Athan are used for maintenance and repair of civilian aircraft. This has been promoted Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice by the Welsh Government. what criteria (a) his Department and (b) its public bodies use when deciding whether and when to hold an internal audit; and if he will make a statement. [85642] JUSTICE Alternatives to Prison Mr Kenneth Clarke: The Ministry of Justice (MOJ) Mrs Chapman: To ask the Secretary of State for Internal Audit and Assurance annual audit programme Justice pursuant to the answer to the right hon. Member covering (a) MOJ core and (b) the agencies and other for Tooting of 20 June 2011, Official Report, column arm’s length bodies (ALBs) is based on an assessment 112W, on young offenders: alternatives to prison, if he of audit need which includes those systems which underpin will commission an outcomes evaluation of the Intensive the key risks to the Ministry as well as systems which, although not linked to the key risks could expose the Alternative to Custody pilots. [85472] Ministry to reputational risks. The decision on the Mr Blunt: The MOJ is currently looking at the feasibility frequency of audit is based on the level of risk attached of conducting an outcome evaluation of the IAC pilots to a system, an analysis of previous audit results and which would compare reoffending rates for IAC offenders the extent and results of any other independent review with reoffending rates for similar offenders receiving activity taking place. The final programme of audits is custodial sentences of less than 12 months. Due to the agreed with senior management and the Audit Committee, small number of offenders, there is no intention to which is comprised of three non-executive directors disaggregate data for young adults from the other adults (one of whom is the Chair) and an independent member. that took part in the pilots. In July 2011, the MOJ published a short report with Departmental Written Questions the main findings from a range of research exploring the learning from the Intensive Alternatives to Custody Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (IAC) pilot schemes: what proportion of written questions for answer on a http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/research-and-analysis/ named day received a substantive answer within five moj/intensive-alternatives-custody.htm working days in each of the last six months. [85053] The process evaluations covering the seven IAC pilot sites are currently being concluded and will be published Mr Kenneth Clarke: The proportion of written questions in due course. asked of my Department for answer on a named day Children: Abduction that received answers within five working days is as follows: Mark Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice whether he plans to bring forward proposals to June 2011: 93.1% change the offence of a parent taking and keeping a July 2011: 98.4% child abroad for over 30 days without permission of the August 2011: No relevant questions were tabled other parent from a civil to a criminal offence. [84093] September 2011: 95.3% Mr Djanogly: There are no such plans. The wrongful October 2011: 98.3% retention of a child away from the United Kingdom is November 2011: 95.3%. already a criminal offence under the Child Abduction The Government have committed to providing the Act 1984. Where a residence order under the Children Procedure Committee with information relating to written Act 1989 is in force with respect to a child, that child parliamentary question performance on a sessional basis cannot be removed from the UK without either the and will provide full information to the Committee at written consent of every person with parental responsibility the end of the Session. Statistics relating to Government for the child or the leave of the court. However, the Departments’ performance for the 2009-10 parliamentary person in whose favour the residence order for a child Session were previously provided to the committee and was made may remove the child from the UK for a are available on the Parliament website. period of less than one month. Where a person is accused or convicted of an offence Prisoners’ Release: Sexual Offences of wrongfully retaining a child abroad, it may be possible for the UK to seek their extradition from the country where they are living, although this will not secure the Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice return of the child. how many sex offenders were released after being found guilty but were released due to time served on remand. However, where wrongful removal or wrongful retention [85204] of the child abroad is in a country which is a contracting state to the 1980 Hague convention on the civil aspects of international child abduction, the left-behind parent Mr Blunt: The number of defendants found guilty of can apply under the convention for the return of the sexual offences at all courts in England and Wales from child. This is a summary procedure designed to seek the 2006 to 2010 (latest available) can be viewed in the table. prompt return of the child to their country of habitual Data are not held centrally on how many of these residence. In non-convention countries the Foreign and defendants had already served their sentence on remand. Commonwealth Office may be able to provide consular Annual court proceedings data for 2011 are planned assistance. for publication in the spring 2012. 433W Written Answers8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 434W

Number of defendants found guilty of sexual offences and sentenced to immediate custody, at all courts, England and Wales, 2006 to 20101,2 2006 2007 20083 2009 2010 Offence Found Immediate Found Immediate Found Immediate Found Immediate Found Immediate type guilty custody guilty custody guilty custody guilty custody guilty custody

Sexual 4,890 2,806 5,059 2,807 5,116 3,000 5,107 2,987 5,784 3,287 offences 1 The figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with.Whena defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed fortwoor more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. 3 Excludes data for Cardiff magistrates court for April, July and August 2008. Source: Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice

Prisons: Postal Services Table 2: Number of reoffences that were violent or sexual, 2005-09 Number

Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how Violence non-serious 7,078 many instances there have been where prisoners have Violence serious 222 received compensation in relation to cases concerning Rule 39 items of post being interfered with by prison 2006 staff; and what the total amount paid was. [85202] Sexual 390 Sex (child) 96 Mr Blunt: Prison Rule 39 provides the authority for Violence non-serious 15,653 prison governors to stop and open written correspondence Violence serious 508 which is subject to legal privilege. This is only done where there is reasonable cause to believe it contains an illegal item which it is believed could endanger prison 2007 security, or the safety of others, or which is illegal. If a Sexual 473 prisoner feels that their correspondence has been opened Sex (child) 139 improperly, they may seek compensation through internal Violence non-serious 16,898 complaints procedures, correspondence, civil litigation Violence serious 529 and through the parliamentary ombudsman and the prisons and probation ombudsman. To provide the 2008 information requested would require collection of data Sexual 439 from each prison and across NOMS headquarters. This Sex (child) 182 could be achieved only at disproportionate cost. Violence non-serious 17,011 Reoffenders Violence serious 557

Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice 2009 how many offenders have been convicted of offences Sexual 518 whilst subject to a community order in each of the last Sex (child) 172 five years; and how many such offences were of a (a) Violence non-serious 16,879 violent and (b) sexual nature. [85205] Violence serious 564

Mr Blunt: Table 1 shows the proven reoffending rates Proven reoffending is defined as any offence committed for adults (aged 18 or over) commencing a community in a one year follow-up period and receiving a court order who committed a proven reoffence within a year conviction, caution, reprimand or warning either during for the last five years for which figures are available. the follow-up period or during a further six months Table 2 shows for the last five years for which figures are allowed for cases to be proven. The sharp increase in available how many of these reoffences were violent or numbers between 2005 and 2006 reflects the fact that sexual. these orders were introduced for offences committed after 4 April 2005. Table 1: Reoffending rates of adult offenders who had commenced a community order, 2005-09 Reoffending rates

2005 37.7 ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE 2006 36.5 Climate Change: International Cooperation 2007 36.6 2008 36.7 2009 35.6 Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change if he will take steps to encourage Table 2: Number of reoffences that were violent or sexual, 2005-09 EU and African groups at the UN Framework Number Convention on Climate Change to (a) consider the 2005 links between population growth, carbon emissions and adaptation problems and (b) invest climate funds Sexual 174 in family planning and women’s education and Sex (child) 50 empowerment programmes. [85516] 435W Written Answers8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 436W

Gregory Barker: The UK and EU are open to discussing with the National Audit Office to align with their the linkages between mitigation, adaptation, family planning programmes of work; and timing based on previous and women’s education and climate finance under the year’s plans. UNFCCC framework. Responding to the unmet need for family planning Departmental Civil Proceedings and improving maternal health are major development priorities for the coalition Government. The UK is Mr Jenkin: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy already investing heavily in family planning and women’s and Climate Change which organisations that have education and empowerment programmes from Official received funding from his Department have brought Development Assistance outside our International Climate legal proceedings against his Department in the last Fund. five years; which such organisations were not successful The UK has committed to prevent more than five in their actions; and whether his Department (a) million unintended pregnancies by enabling at least 10 applied and (b) was paid for costs in respect of such million more women in developing countries to use cases. [83886] modern methods of family planning by 2015, The UK will work to get more girls in developing countries into Gregory Barker: The Department does not maintain the classroom, making sure that at least half of the nine a central record of legal proceedings brought against it, million primary school children we will get into school and it would not be possible to compile a historical over the next four years are female. record without incurring disproportionate cost. In researching the answer to your question, my Department Departmental Audit has not identified any case where an organisation funded by the Department has brought legal proceedings against it. Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what criteria (a) his Department Departmental Judicial Review and (b) its public bodies use when deciding whether and when to hold an internal audit; and if he will make Mr Jenkin: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy a statement. [85636] and Climate Change what his policy is on (a) the recovery of legal costs from failed applicants for judicial Gregory Barker: Internal Audit in the Department of review and (b) enforcement of any such recovery; and Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS) provide the internal whether any exceptions apply. [83911] audit function to the Department of Energy and Climate Change (DECC). DECC does not have any executive Gregory Barker: The presumption is that the Department agencies. will seek to recover its costs, except where that would not be appropriate, such as where costs are unlikely to Internal audits are undertaken in DECC as part of be recoverable. Enforcement action would also be taken agreed annual audit plans which cover the duration where appropriate. of each financial year. The plans include a number of internal audits which form a core package of control and compliance work. This is necessary to provide Departmental Risk Assessment adequate coverage to enable Internal Audit to provide assurance to the Accounting Officers at year end about Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy the effectiveness of the internal control environment and Climate Change what risk registers are held by the and to support the preparation of Governance Statements. public bodies for which his Department is responsible; Internal Audit also identifies a programme of risk and if he will make a statement. [85703] based work. This part of the audit plans is developed over the course of the year, dependent on the Department’s Gregory Barker: All of DECC’s Executive Non- priorities, the evolution of the risk environment and the Departmental Public Bodies hold risk registers. Each of emergence of entirely new risks. The audit plans list the bodies has set out their approach to risk management risk-based reviews to ensure that current risk areas, as in the Statement on Internal Control in their respective identified through discussion with senior management Annual Report and Accounts. and a review of the Department’s high level risk registers, DECC’s Advisory Non-Departmental Bodies do not are addressed. The audit plans also contain a flexible hold their own risk registers. Their function is to provide allowance for timely audit response to changes in the independent scrutiny and advice to Government. This risk profile and developments in DECC. scrutiny includes seeking assurance that DECC’s The audit plans are subject to approval by the DECC programmes falling within their remit, are underpinned Audit and Risk Committees. by appropriate risk management. Internal Audit holds discussions with Directors-General and Directors throughout the year and updates the Departmental Written Questions audit plans where necessary. The Audit and Risk Committees are provided with proposed revisions to the Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy annual plans as appropriate. and Climate Change how many and what proportion The timing of the internal audit reviews carried out of questions for ordinary written answer received a by Internal Audit is determined by a number of factors, substantive response within (a) 10, (b) 20, (c) 30 and including: discussions with senior management and (d) more than 30 sitting days in the 2010-12 session to members of the Audit and Risk Committees; discussion date. [85927] 437W Written Answers8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 438W

Gregory Barker: During the period 18 May 2010 to National Grid, as the system operator of the transmission 30 November 2011 a total of 2,844 ordinary written system, and the distribution network operators are questions were tabled to the Department. incentivised to minimise transmission and distribution Total answered: 2,821. losses respectively through reward or penalty payments Unanswered questions: 23. based on performance against targets set by Ofgem, in its role as independent energy regulator. Questions answered within five sitting days: 2,387 (84%). Answered over five sitting days: 434 (15%); of these 57 (13%) were answered over 10 days but under 20 sitting days. Energy: Housing No questions were answered beyond 20, 30 or more sitting days. Nicola Blackwood: To ask the Secretary of State for The Government have committed to providing the Energy and Climate Change how many houses in Procedure Committee with information relating to written England he estimates meet an energy efficiency rating parliamentary question performance on a sessional basis of (a) A, (b) B, (c) C, (d) D, (e) E, (f) F and (g) G. and will provide this information to the Committee at [83048] the end of the Session. Statistics relating to Government Department’s performance for the 2009-10 parliamentary Andrew Stunell: I have been asked to reply. Session were previously provided to the committee and Energy efficiency ratings are not available for all are available on the Parliament website. homes in England. Information contained in the total number of certificates relating to homes in England Electricity that had been lodged on the Register of Energy Performance Certificates, up to and including 24 November 2011, it Guto Bebb: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy is estimated that the number of houses in England that and Climate Change with reference to the Electricity achieve energy performance ratings of A, B, C, D, E, F Safety, Quality and Continuity Regulations 2002, what and G is as follows: steps he has taken to enforce the continuity and quality of electricity supply. [84592] Energy Performance Rating Band Number of EPCs A 1,505 Charles Hendry: Action can be taken under regulation B 204,798 34 of the Electricity Safety, Quality and Continuity C 925,671 Regulations 2002 (ESQCR) to enforce continuity and D 1,546,241 quality of electricity supply. Electricity transmission E 923,229 and distribution companies have a statutory duty to report certain interruptions to supply under regulation 32 F 280,043 of the ESQCR, as follows: G 79,077 Total 3,960,564 Interruptions of 20 MW or more for three minutes or longer. Interruptions of 5 MW or more for one hour or longer. The estimated total of 15.97 million houses in England Interruptions of 5,000 consumers or more for one hour or is taken from English Housing Survey data from 2009, longer. and published in July 2011. The number of certificates Inspectors appointed under section 30 of the Electricity relates to the number of Energy Performance Certificates Act 1989 have powers to test, investigate or examine lodged on the Certificate Register for houses in England equipment to ascertain whether a breach of these regulations as opposed to other types of dwelling (e.g. flat or may have occurred. maisonette), up to and including 24 November 2011.

Electricity Generation Green Deal Scheme

Neil Carmichael: To ask the Secretary of State for Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made Energy and Climate Change when he plans to publish of energy lost through the transmission network in the his proposals for the allocation of funding for early latest period for which figures are available. [83039] uptake of the Green Deal in its initial phase in 2012-13 and 2013-14. [85485] Charles Hendry: DECC estimates that approximately 1.6% of the electricity put on to the transmission network Gregory Barker: The Government announced £200 was lost in 2010, which amounts to 6.0 terawatt hours million of new funding to provide a time limited (TWh). Losses for the distribution network in 2010 introductory offer to boost early take up of the Green account for 6.2% (21 TWh) of electricity available for Deal. distribution. These estimates are derived from data set out in The Digest of UK Energy Statistics 2011, which The Department will develop options for how best to notes that UK transmission losses in 2010 were use these funds over the winter, and will provide further approximately 22% of total UK losses of 27 TWh. This details on our proposals next year. publication is available at: http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/statistics/publications/ Nuclear Power Stations: Construction dukes/dukes.aspx Transmission losses have a cost of approximately Guto Bebb: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy £225 million per annum, which is recovered from generators and Climate Change (1) with reference to the National and suppliers. Infrastructure Plan, what discussions he has had with 439W Written Answers8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 440W his ministerial colleagues in (a) HM Treasury and (b) Solar Power: Feed-in Tariffs the Department for Communities and Local Government on the potential benefits to communities of new nuclear Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for build; [85274] Energy and Climate Change pursuant to his answer of (2) if he will set up a cross-departmental task group 24 November 2011, official report, column 474, on including (a) his Department, (b) HM Treasury, (b) renewable energy: feed-in tariff, what the average payment the Department for Communities and Local Government to households who had installed solar PV under the and (d) the Welsh Government to discuss the provision feed-in tariff scheme was between April 2010 and October of community benefits of new nuclear build; [85275] 2011. [83928] (3) how he plans to engage with (a) developers and (b) local authorities on the potential benefits to Gregory Barker: For the 18,073 domestic (<4kW) communities of new nuclear build. [85276] installations in the 2010-11 period Ofgem estimate that total generation payments of £5,919,525.48 and export Charles Hendry: The National Infrastructure Plan payments of £209,752.80 were made. These figures are identifies community benefit as an area where action by based on the total number of installations registered Government might help meet reasonable community over the period 1 April 2010 to 31 March 2011 only, as aspirations in areas where new nuclear development is tariff information is supplied annually. proposed without adding excessive costs to investment. Ofgem does not (and is not required to) collect data This followed discussions with HM Treasury and the on individual payments under the feed-in tariffs scheme. Department for Communities and Local Government. Warm Home Discount Scheme In taking this issue forward, the Department will continue to engage with interested Government Departments and other bodies and with developers and local authorities David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for to establish how this can be achieved. Energy and Climate Change what changes he is considering to support provided to pensioners through the Warm Scottish Government Home Discount scheme; and if he will make a statement. [85887] Jim McGovern: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change when officials of his Gregory Barker: Help for pensioners is a key part of Department last met officials of the Scottish Government; the Warm Home Discount scheme. This winter more and what was discussed. [84697] than 600,000 of the poorest pensioners will receive a Core Group discount of £120 on their electricity bills. Gregory Barker [holding answer 5 December 2011]: As set out in the Disclosure of State Pension Credit The Department holds frequent meetings with officials Information (Warm Home Discount) Regulations 2011 from the Scottish Government to discuss a range of and the Warm Home Discount Regulations 2011 issues. The last meeting was held on 29 November respectively, eligibility for the Core Group discount and where the Electricity Market Reform proposals were the amount of rebate payable are shown in the following discussed. table for all four years of the scheme.

Eligibility for the Core Group discount Amount of rebate (£)

2011-12 In receipt of pension credit guarantee credit only 120 2012-13 In receipt of pension credit guarantee credit only, or aged 80 and over and in receipt of both 130 pension credit guarantee/savings credit 2013-14 In receipt of pension credit guarantee credit only, or aged 75 and over and in receipt of both 135 pension credit guarantee/savings credit 2014-15 All in receipt of pension credit guarantee credit 140

Additionally, to receive the discount the pension credit EDUCATION recipient or their partner must be the named bill payer on their electricity account with one of the six major Academies energy suppliers. Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Other low income pensioners may also be able to Education whether Academies are able to sell assets benefit from the same discounts as listed above on such as land. [84447] electricity accounts through the support offered by energy suppliers under the Broader Group element of Mr Gibb [holding answer 1 December 2011]: The the Warm Home Discount scheme. Pensioners are also Funding Agreements with Academies include a requirement among those who will be assisted by suppliers this year that they cannot dispose of assets such as land without through the scheme under the transitional arrangements first seeking the consent of the Secretary of State for from the previous voluntary agreement. Education, my right hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Currently, no changes are being considered for the Heath (Michael Gove). In seeking such consent, the scheme, but we will keep this under review. Academy Trust would be required to make a business case setting out the reasons for the sale, and the way in which any proceeds will be spent. For example, Academy Trusts and Foundation bodies that hold land for Academies 441W Written Answers8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 442W which has been either provided or enhanced at public 2009-10: Department for Children, Schools and Families: £361,080 expense can propose the disposal of that land, where it 2010-11: Department for Children, Schools and Families (to is in the interests of the education they provide. Requests May 2010); Department for Education (from May 2010): for consent are currently dealt with by the YoungPeople’s £253,829 Learning Agency (YPLA). 2011-12 (to 25 November 2011): Department for Education: £258,927. Children’s Centres: Finance Design: Education

Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for Education from what date local authorities will be Education what estimate he has made of the number of required to provide information about expenditure on children studying Design and Technology in (a) Sefton children’s centres; where such information will be published; and (b) England in each of the years 2010-11 to and whether such a requirement will take the form of 2014-15. [84953] statutory guidance. [82627] Mr Gibb [holding answer 5 December 2011]: We have Sarah Teather: This is the first year the Department not made any estimate of the number of students who has collected and published the expenditure by local will study design and technology and related subjects in authorities on children’s centres. Local authorities are each of the years 2010-11 to 2014-15. In academic year required under section 251 of the Apprenticeships, Skills, 2010/11 14,871 pupils were entered for design and Children and Learning Act 2009 to prepare and submit technology A Level, and 226,400 pupils were entered an education and children’s social care budget statement for GCSE, in schools in England. In Sefton 54 pupils by 31 March each year and this commenced in March were entered for A Level in design and technology. We 2011 That legislation also requires local authorities to do not have the corresponding number for pupils entered publish the information locally . It must be made available for design and technology GCSE in Sefton. on a website maintained by the local authority and accessible to the public. Education: British Overseas Territories

Departmental Judicial Review Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what his policy is on programmes to educate Mr Jenkin: To ask the Secretary of State for Education school students about the British Overseas Territories. what applications for judicial review have been made [84583] against his Department (a) in the last Parliament and (b) since May 2010; whether each such application (i) Mr Gibb: Students are taught about British Overseas succeeded, (ii) failed and (iii) remains pending; what Territories as part of the history curriculum, and this legal costs were incurred by his Department for each topic can also be studied as part of geography. such application; in each failed application whether he The Government believe that the existing history applied for costs against the applicant and whether they curriculum does not ensure that children and young were (A) awarded and (B) paid; whether his Department people are able to gain a secure knowledge and shared (1) paid for and (2) offered to pay for the legal costs knowledge of British history or the key events in world incurred by each such applicant; and what the total cost history. We are currently conducting a review of the to the public purse was of payment of the legal costs for national curriculum with the aim of reducing prescription each such applicant. [80711] and focusing on the essential knowledge that all children should acquire. Tim Loughton: We do not hold centrally the information requested. A search and analysis of all records of judicial Education: Design reviews brought over the past six years would involve disproportionate cost. However, we have the following Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for figures for how much the Department for Education, Education what estimate he has made of the number of and its predecessors, the Department for Children, Schools students who will study design and technology and and Families and the Department for Education and related subjects in each of the next 10 years. [84149] Skills, have paid to the Treasury Solicitor’s Department, whom we instruct in most litigation cases, for litigation Mr Gibb [holding answer 1 December 2011]: We have lawyers’ fees and disbursements in judicial review not made any estimate of the number of students who proceedings in each financial year since 1 April 2005. will study design and technology and related subjects in This does not include amounts that may have been paid the next ten years. In academic year 2010/11 14,871 by the Department for Education and its predecessors pupils were entered for design and technology A-level, in costs or damages to the other side in the litigation. and 226,400 pupils were entered for GCSE, in schools Nor does it include the cost of departmental lawyers’ in England. time or of other departmental officials. 2005-06: Department for Education and Skills: £57,223 Education: Mothers 2006-07: Department for Education and Skills: £228,003 2007-08: Department for Education and Skills (to June 2007); Debbie Abrahams: To ask the Secretary of State for Department for Children, Schools and Families (from June Education what proportion of mothers aged 16 to 19 2007): £252,035 were in education, employment or training on the latest 2008-09: Department for Children, Schools and Families: £277,102 date for which figures are available. [84618] 443W Written Answers8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 444W

Tim Loughton: Latest estimates from the Labour The National Plan for Music Education sets out Force Survey show that 28.6% of teenage mothers aged future funding allocations and a new funding mechanism 16 to 19 were in education, employment or training in from 2012-13. We are moving toward a per-pupil national 2010. The proportion of teenage mothers who are in funding formula that will turn around the historical education, employment or training has remained fairly imbalance in funding for music services between areas, stable since 1998. with transitional protection to guard against large losses in any one area. Music: Education £

Ms Harman: To ask the Secretary of State for 2006-07 64,053,456 Education with reference to the National Music Plan, 2007-08 82,562,725 what assessment he has made of the potential effects of 2008-09 82,562,467 reductions in local government funding on the 2009-10 82,562,467 provision of music education in schools. [84529] 2010-11 82,562,467 2011-12 177,000,000 Mr Gibb [holding answer 5 December 2011]: In the 2012-13 275,000,000 current financial climate it is important that public 2013-14 263,000,000 funding is used effectively. We are allocating significant 2 public expenditure to music education because we are 2014-15 58,000,000 1 Music Education Grant. determined that every child should have access to a high 2 Music Education Hubs. quality music education, not only those from families that can afford to pay for private lessons. Primary Ms Harman: To ask the Secretary of State for responsibility for music education has always and will Education how much funding his Department has continue to be the responsibility of schools, in delivering allocated to local authorities for the purchase of the music curriculum. In practice, that role has been musical instruments in the next three years by local supported by a mixed economy, with contributions authority area. [84557] from central Government, local government, schools, parents, community and charitable music organisations Mr Gibb [holding answer 5 December 2011]: The and the lottery. Department does not allocate funding amounts for the The new National Plan for Music Education, published purchase of musical instruments. It is for local authorities on Friday 25 November, sets out Department for Education to decide how they allocate their budget for music future funding allocations and a new funding mechanism education. from 2012-13. We are moving toward a per-pupil national Providing instrumental tuition and progression routes funding formula that will turn around the historical for those wishing to develop their skills are two of four imbalance in funding for music services between areas, ’core’ services that music education hubs will be required with transitional protection to guard against large losses to make available to pupils from September 2012. The in any one area. Federation of Music Services is currently undertaking Local authority funding for music education is clearly an audit of instrument purchases so that the new hubs a matter for local authorities, but very much hope that will have a basis from which to plan future expenditure. they will want to support us in improving the quality of As part of their contribution to the National Plan, Arts all pupils’ music education. Council England have agreed to extend their ‘Take it Away’ scheme which provides interest free loans via Ms Harman: To ask the Secretary of State for retailers for the purchase of instruments for 18 to Education how much funding his Department has 25-year-olds, to five to 18-year-olds. This will make the allocated for the provision of music education in the purchase of instruments financially easier for parents/carers. next three years by local authority area; and how much funding for such purposes was allocated in the last five Ms Harman: To ask the Secretary of State for Education years. [84556] what steps he plans to take to ensure that music teachers are engaged in the implementation and delivery of the Mr Gibb [holding answer 5 December 2011]: The National Plan for Music Education. [84634] table shows the Music Standards Fund allocations for music education for all local authorities in England Mr Gibb [holding answer 5 December 2011]: The from 2006-11 and the funding allocations for music National Plan for Music Education recognises that education in local authorities in 2011-15. Detailed funding music education takes place primarily in schools, and for individual local authority areas from April 2012 to that schools are responsible for delivering the music March 2015 were published alongside the new National curriculum; and that within schools, music teachers Plan for Music Education, published on 25 November. have a fundamental role to play. The National Plan for This is available at: Music Education responds to the findings by Darren http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/teachingandlearning/ Henley that teachers in primary schools need specialist curriculum/subjects/a00200352/national-plan-for-music- support to teach music, while those in secondary schools education can feel isolated. Details of funding for 2011-12 were published by the Music education hubs will be funded in such a way Federation of Music Services and are available at: that will reward partnerships between local authorities www.thefms.org/the-fem/professional/funding and local music organisations. Together these partnerships We shall place copies of individual local authority will open up new networks of music educators, all allocations from 2006-07 to 2010-11 in the House Libraries. working to ensure every child has a high-quality music 445W Written Answers8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 446W education, including the opportunity to learn to sing, to Mr Gibb: Schools are currently required to follow a play an instrument and to play music with others. programme of study for teaching history, but there are Finally, the plan announces that a new music teaching no subjects in British history that the Department has module is being developed, to develop teachers’ skills in directed schools not to teach. teaching music, and to help them understand the context The Government believe that the existing history within which they work in music education hubs. curriculum does not ensure that children and young Schools: Admissions people are able to gain a secure knowledge and shared knowledge of British history or the key events in world history. We are conducting a review of the national Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State curriculum with the aim of reducing prescription and for Education what the average number of pupils was in focusing on the essential knowledge that all children (a) primary and (b) secondary schools in each of the should acquire. last 10 years for which figures are available. [82482] Schools: Inspections Mr Gibb [holding answer 24 November 2011]: The requested information is shown in the following table: Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for State-funded primary and secondary schools1,2,3: Average number of pupils4— Education what recent assessment he has made of the England, January 2002-11 effectiveness of parent consultations on Ofsted inspections. State-funded primary State-funded secondary [83362] schools1,2 schools1,3

2002 243 945 Mr Gibb: This is a matter for Ofsted. HM Chief 2003 241 964 Inspector, Miriam Rosen, has written to my hon. Friend, 2004 240 976 and a copy of her response has been placed in the 2005 238 980 House Libraries. 2006 237 983 Letter from Miriam Rosen, dated 28 November 2011: 2007 237 978 Your recent parliamentary question has been passed to me, as 2008 238 974 Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector, for a response. 2009 239 975 The Education and Inspections Act 2006 section 117 (1) requires 2010 241 984 Ofsted to carry out its functions in ways which encourage the 2011 245 986 services we inspect and regulate to be user-focused. In addition, 1 Includes middle schools as deemed. section 117 (2) also requires Ofsted to have regard to the views 2 Includes primary academies. expressed by relevant persons about the services we inspect. In 3 Includes city technology colleges and secondary academies (including all-through fulfilling these requirements Ofsted is committed to ensuring that academies). 4 Number (headcount) of sole and dual main registered pupils divided by the the views of parents and carers are taken into account when number of schools. deciding how and when to inspect. In addition, Ofsted engages Source: with parents and carers during inspections in order to take their School Census views into consideration and help inform the judgements made by inspectors. This includes, for example, Ofsted’s inspections of Caroline Nokes: To ask the Secretary of State for childcare and early education as well as those of schools. Education what plans he has to amend the Admissions Under section 7 of the Education Act 2005 the Chief Inspector Code to control the number of lone European has a specific duty to have regard to any views expressed by the Economic Area children studying in the UK. [84871] parents of registered pupils during inspections of maintained schools. Parents are contacted by letter and asked to inform the Mr Gibb: On 1 December, the new School Admissions inspection team of their views about the school. They can inform and Appeals Codes were laid before Parliament. Subject inspectors in a variety of ways, including a confidential parents’ and carers’ questionnaire. Inspectors take these comments and to the approval of Parliament, these codes will come responses into account as they carry out the inspection. In into force on 1 February 2012. The School Admissions 2010/11 Ofsted received responses from parents or carers of over Code makes clear that all admission authorities must one-quarter of the pupils in the schools inspected. treat applications, for children coming from overseas, in Our analysis shows that overall; parents remain very positive accordance with European Community law. Where the about the quality of education that their child receives. An provisions of the Immigration (European Economic analysis of 315,182 parental questionnaires returned from 3,679 Area) Regulations 2006 are satisfied, nationals of the inspections carried out in 2010/11 shows that 94% of the parents European Economic Area and their children of any age, who responded were positive overall about their child’s schooling. who come to the UK lawfully to work, or for certain These results are consistent with the previous year, when 93% expressed a positive opinion overall. The lowest proportion of other economic purposes, have a right to reside in the strongly positive comments came in response to the question, UK. They enjoy the same rights to education as British ‘The school takes account of my suggestions and concerns’, but citizens. This right also applies to EEA national children even here 85% of parents either agreed or strongly agreed with the who come to study in the UK, but are not accompanied statement. For the most part, parents who responded to the by their parents. Non-EEA children of EEA parents, questionnaire are positive about how schools manage behaviour. who are not accompanied by their parents, do not have As one might expect, this figure varies according to the overall this right. quality of behaviour at the school. Parents in schools where behaviour was judged inadequate or satisfactory are three times Schools: History more likely to think that the school does not deal effectively with poor behaviour than parents in schools where behaviour was judged outstanding. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for The new framework for the inspection of maintained schools Education whether there are any subjects in British and academies from January 2012 places a strong focus on the history which his Department directs schools not to views of pupils, parents and staff. In addition, Ofsted recently teach. [84732] introduced Parent View, an online questionnaire that will—for 447W Written Answers8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 448W the first time—allow parents and carers to give their views on Basic Skills their child’s school at any time of the year. Parent View has been produced with the assistance of a panel of parents who contributed to the shaping of the questions and the way the site functions. The Mr Allen: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, questionnaires will cover a range of topics including quality of Innovation and Skills what steps his Department is teaching, bullying and levels of homework, allowing parents to taking to ensure that young people have the social and rate their child’s school’s approach to each issue, with a final emotional skills needed in the workplace. [85409] question as to whether or not they would recommend the school to other parents. The questions were carefully chosen to ensure Mr Hayes: Young people develop the social and that they cover a range of issues which are important to parents emotional skills they need for work, and to become but are equally designed to provide Ofsted with the right information to support decisions about inspection. adult citizens, by interacting with adults and having opportunities to take responsibility and gain real experience Ofsted also actively seeks the views of parents and carers as part of the consultation process when developing new frameworks. of the workplace. That is why we are reforming vocational 615 members of the Ofsted parents’ panel, an online panel of education and increasing the opportunities for young parents whose children attend maintained, schools or use registered people to gain work experience. childcare, responded to a questionnaire about the proposals. We have given Further Education colleges and providers the freedom to tailor provision to meet the needs of students, including addressing their social and emotional skills where this supports learning and progression. We BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS also continue to fully fund training for people aged 19 to 24 to enable them to get their first full level 2 or first Manufacturing full level 3 qualifications and training for people who are unemployed and actively seeking work to give them the skills they need to get into work. We provide careers 20. Neil Carmichael: To ask the Secretary of State for advice through the Next Steps, which will become part Business, Innovation and Skills what recent assessment of the new National Careers Service, to help young he has made of the performance of the manufacturing adults understand their options and take their first sector. [85415] steps into work. We are expanding the number of Apprenticeship Mr Prisk: Despite challenging export markets UK places by increasing funding for Apprenticeships in manufacturers have responded positively. For example, 2011-12 to over £1.4 billion, sufficient to train 360,000 exports of motor vehicles have now doubled in real apprentices. We have also committed to 40,000 incentive terms since the first quarter of 2009. payments to encourage small employers to take on their first apprentice aged 16 to 24. We have launched sector- Airports: Retail Trade based work academies which provide a combination of training, work experience and a guaranteed job interview Mr Donohoe: To ask the Secretary of State for for people who are unemployed. Business, Innovation and Skills whether he has assessed We are committed to ensuring graduates are better the level of retail sales in airports (a) annually and (b) prepared for the workplace. All universities have published seasonally; and if he will make a statement. [85025] employability statements outlining how they work with their students to prepare them for employment. From Mr Prisk: Her Majesty’s Government have made no September 2012 higher education institutions will be estimate of the contribution of airport retail to the required to publish information about student satisfaction, economy, either annually or seasonally. costs and student employment outcomes.

Mr Donohoe: To ask the Secretary of State for Business: Equal Opportunities Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has made of the contribution of airport retail to the Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for economy (a) annually and (b) during Christmas; and Business, Innovation and Skills what plans he has to if he will make a statement. [85027] encourage FTSE 100 and FTSE 200 listed businesses to publish the numbers of men and women they employ. Mr Prisk: Her Majesty’s Government have made no [84532] estimate of the contribution of airport retail to the economy, either annually or at a specific time of the Mr Davey: Government are currently reviewing the year. narrative reporting requirements placed upon businesses which includes measures to improve the disclosure of the number of women, and by default men, at various Apprentices levels within individual organisations as recommended by the noble Lord Davies of Abersoch in his review of Brandon Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for women on boards. Business, Innovation and Skills how many new apprenticeships have been started in each year since Copyright: Arts 2008-09. [83327] Angie Bray: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Hayes: I refer my hon. Friend to the response Business, Innovation and Skills what steps his I gave on 29 November 2011, Official Report, Department is taking to minimise the effect on business columns 844-6W. of changes to artists’ resale rights. [85414] 449W Written Answers8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 450W

Mr Davey: On 2 December 2011, the Department Internal audits are undertaken in the Department for laid Statutory Instrument 2873 which will amend the Business (BIS), and those NDPBs that BIS IA provide implementation of Artist’s Resale Right in the UK. The an audit service to, as part of agreed annual audit plans instrument is intended to simplify the administration of necessary to provide adequate coverage to enable BIS the right, by clarifying the nationality requirements for IA to provide assurance to the Accounting Officers and heirs and nationals of non-EEA countries entitled to to support the Governance Statements each financial receive royalties on a reciprocal basis. These changes year. will come into effect on 1 January 2012. On the same The plans include a number of internal audits forming date the 2001 Directive will be fully implemented in the core control and compliance work, together with a UK, when Resale Right is extended to sales of in programme of risk based work. The control/compliance copyright works by qualifying deceased artists. I expect element of BIS IA audit plans is determined at the start the changes made by this instrument to simplify of the year but remains flexible over the course of the administration of payments following that extension. year, dependent on the Department’s and its client NDPBs’ priorities, the evolution of the risk environment Debts and the emergence of entirely new risks. The audit plans list risk-based reviews designed to provide assurance, Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State where required, over key risk areas identified through for Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he has discussion with senior management and a review of the taken to assist those with very high levels of personal Department’s and the 10 client NDPBs’ high level risk debt in the last 12 months. [84929] registers. Audit plans are subject to approval by the departmental and NDPBs’ Audit and Risk Committees Mr Davey [holding answer 6 December 2011]: and are kept under regular review. The plans also contain Government are concerned about the very high levels of a small flexible allowance for unplanned work allowing consumer debt that has built up the economy in recent timely audit response to changes in the risk profile and years and the impact this can have on people’s day-to-day developments in BIS, and those NDPBs that BIS IA lives. provide an audit service to across the year. The Face-to-Face debt advice project is funded by a BIS IA continues to hold discussions with Directors- £27 million grant from BIS in 2011/12, and employs General, Directors and client NDPB chief executives around 500 specialist advisers in Citizens Advice Bureaux throughout the year and updates the audit plans were and other community advice services across England necessary. The Audit and Risk Committees are provided and Wales. Since 2006, over 470,000 individuals have with proposed revisions to the annual plan as appropriate. been helped. The timing of the internal audit reviews carried out In order to place debt advice in the future on a more by BIS IA is determined by a number of factors, including: secure footing, the Money Advice Service has agreed to discussions with senior management and members of take on responsibility for the co-ordination of debt the Audit and Risk Committees; discussion with the advice services from April 2012. The Money Advice National Audit Office to align with their programmes Service is in the process of securing funding to continue of work; and timing based on previous year’s plans. resourcing the existing free Face-to-Face Debt Advice The other BIS NDPBs use their own criteria for services after 31 March 2012, so that people in need deciding what should be audited and this information is have access to good advice. not held centrally.

Departmental Audit Departmental Civil Proceedings

Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Jenkin: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what criteria (a) his Business, Innovation and Skills which organisations Department and (b) its public bodies use when that have received funding from his Department have deciding whether and when to hold an internal audit; brought legal proceedings against his Department in and if he will make a statement. [85630] the last five years; which such organisations were not successful in their actions; and whether his Department Mr Davey: Internal Audit (IA) in the Department for (a) applied and (b) was paid for costs in respect of Business innovation and Skills (BIS) provide the internal such cases. [83880] audit function to the Department, and 10 of the 61 non-departmental public bodies (NDPBs) the Department Mr Davey: According to our records, no organisations is responsible for. These are: that have received funding from the Department for ACAS Business, Innovation and Skills have brought legal Capital for Enterprise proceedings against the Department since it was set up in June 2009. Central Arbitration Committee/Certification Office Competition Appeal Tribunal Departmental Design Competition Commission Competition Service Local Better Regulation Office Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how much his Department has Low Pay Commission spent on design in respect of (a) logos, (b) buildings, Office of Manpower Economics (c) advertising, (d) stationery and (e) campaigns in UK Trade and Investment. the last year for which figures are available. [80200] 451W Written Answers8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 452W

Mr Davey: In the last full financial year, 2010/11, the Higher Education Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS) did not incur any external design costs with regard to Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for logos, buildings or stationery. There were design costs Business, Innovation and Skills what discussions he has associated with advertising and campaigns. These costs had with the British Council on the effect on the could not be disaggregated from overall totals except at international reputation of British higher education of disproportionate cost. Government proposals to give degree awarding powers to institutions which do not carry out teaching or research. [80733] Departmental Judicial Review Mr Willetts: I meet representatives of the British Mr Jenkin: To ask the Secretary of State for Council regularly to discuss higher education issues, Business, Innovation and Skills what his policy is on including at the International Education Advisory Forum. (a) the recovery of legal costs from failed applicants I have not had any discussions with the British Council for judicial review and (b) enforcement of any such on this specific issue nor have I received any representations recovery; and whether any exceptions apply. [83916] from them in response to the recent technical consultation ″A New, Fit-for-purpose Regulatory Framework for the Mr Davey: Where the Department for Business, Higher Education Sector″ which discussed these proposals. Innovation and Skills is successful following a judicial review it will normally seek an order that costs are Higher Education: Admissions payable. However, the Department will make an assessment on a case to case basis as to whether securing payment Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for will be cost effective when the costs of enforcement are Business, Innovation and Skills what plans he has to taken into account. alter the AAB and above threshold for unrestricted recruitment of university places following the 2012-13 academic year. [85522] Departmental Official Hospitality Mr Willetts: The Department stated in the White Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Paper, “Students at the Heart of the System” that AAB Innovation and Skills what receptions and events have represented a starting point and that it was our ambition been hosted by his Department since May 2010, including to increase the proportion of new entrant places freed from student number controls by the end of this Parliament. those sponsored by a third party. [84180] We will set out our plans in due course and have asked Mr Davey: During the period 1 May 2010 to 30 the Higher Education Funding Council for England November 2011 there were 3,973 events held by the (HEFCE) to consult on future funding arrangements, Department in the Department’s Conference Centre at including liberalising student number controls, in their its headquarters building 1 Victoria street, London. forthcoming consultation on teaching funding for 2013/14 These events will include internal events with only BIS and beyond. staff attending and external events where external Insolvency: Legislation stakeholders are invited. Harriett Baldwin: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills whether his Department Departmental Responsibilities has any plans to review insolvency laws. [85389]

Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Mr Davey: We keep our insolvency laws under review Innovation and Skills what steps his Department is and liaise regularly with interested parties on how they taking to ensure social value is included when services are working in practice and suggestions for reform. are commissioned by (a) his Department and (b) its The Government have recently published a consultation public bodies; and if he will make a statement. [85669] proposing reforms to the application processes for entry into bankruptcy and compulsory winding-up. Measures Mr Davey: UK public procurement policy is to award are also being considered that might strengthen the contracts on the basis of value for money, which means regulatory regime under which licensed insolvency the optimum combination of cost and quality over the practitioners operate. lifetime of the project. Public sector procurers are required to assess value for money from the perspective of the Additionally, work is under way to modernise the contracting authority using criteria linked to the subject procedural insolvency rules. As well as a proposed new matter of the contract, including compliance with the set of those rules, amendments are being considered in published specification. a number of areas to improve clarity, transparency and accountability for creditors and other stakeholders. Wider socio-economic benefits that do not accrue to the contracting authority cannot be taken into account Members: Correspondence at tender evaluation stage if they do not relate to the subject matter of a contract from the point of view of Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for the contracting authority. Business, Innovation and Skills when he plans to answer Details of the steps being taken by the Department’s the letter from the right hon. Member for Manchester, non-departmental public bodies are not held centrally Gorton of 6 October 2011 with regard to Mr P Wightman. and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. [85145] 453W Written Answers8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 454W

Mr Davey: I refer the right hon. Member to the used in the process of linking statistical datasets and is answer I gave on 30 November 2011, Official Report, supplied to contractors for use in surveys to obtain column 1007W. phone numbers through data matching. The Department provides the online BIS Assisted National Savings and Investments: Post Offices Area Postcode Checker which can be used to provide an indication of whether a postcode in Great Britain is an Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Assisted Area as defined for the 2007-13 Assisted Area Innovation and Skills what discussions he has had with Map. representatives of National Savings and Investments on its decision to stop selling its products through the Public Expenditure post office network. [85156]

Mr Davey: National Savings and Investments (NS&I) Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for is an executive agency of Her Majesty’s Treasury (HMT). Business, Innovation and Skills with reference to the As such, I have had discussions with both NS&I and Autumn Statement 2011, column 8231, page 46, table HMT on the provision of NS&I products through the 2.1, what spending decisions are represented by the post office network. I would also point out that Premium figures of £30 million for (a) 2012-13, (b) 2013-14 and Bonds, by far the most popular NS&I product at post (c) 2014-15 in line 29: Science of the table. [84768] offices and accounting for 75% of all NS&I sales there, will continue to be available to buy and redeem at any Mr Willetts [holding answer 5 December 2011]: This post office. budget is allocated to support the commercialisation of new biomedical technologies, and will fund research, Overseas Students development and testing activities, and leverage additional private sector investment. This will seek to accelerate Caroline Nokes: To ask the Secretary of State for the commercialisation of innovative technologies from Business, Innovation and Skills what his most recent the research base to the market, for the benefit of estimate is of the number of lone European Economic patients. This budget will be managed by the Technology Strategy Board. Area students studying in the UK. [84936]

Mr Willetts: There were 128,675 European Economic Regional Growth Fund: EU Grants and Loans Area students1 enrolled on postgraduate and undergraduate courses at UK higher education institutions in the Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Secretary of State 2009/10 academic year. The Department does not hold for Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the information on how many of these students were lone answer of 29 November 2011, Official Report, column students. Information for the 2010/11 academic year 852W, on regional growth fund: EU grants and loans, will become available from January 2012. how many of the bids to the second round of the 1 Covers full-time and part-time students domiciled in European regional growth fund (RGF) which mentioned funding Union countries (other than the United Kingdom) and Iceland, from European regional development fund sources Liechtenstein and Norway. Domicile refers to the country of a were successful in obtaining RGF funding in each student’s permanent or home address prior to entry to their region. [85310] course.

Planning: Sculpture Mr Prisk [holding answer 6 December 2011]: Regional breakdown of the successful bids to the second round of Regional Growth Fund which mentioned funding Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, from European regional development fund sources is as Innovation and Skills whether he will review the effectiveness given as follows: of the operation of legislation enshrining an artist’s moral rights pertaining to site specific sculpture; and if Number he will make a statement. [85680] North-east 2 Mr Davey: The Secretary of State for Business, North-west 1 Innovation and Skills, my right hon. Friend the Member Yorkshire and Humber 2 for Twickenham (Vince Cable), has no plans to conduct West midlands 3 a review of this issue. East midlands 2 East of England 1 Post Codes South-east 0 South-west 1 Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, London 0 Innovation and Skills whether his Department uses National 0 postcodes for purposes other than the postage of mail. [84179] Space Technology Mr Davey: The Department does not publish statistical information at postcode level, but uses postcode information David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for to derive geographical data, such as region, county, Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking local authority and parliamentary constituency, and to to encourage sales of remote sensing services by produce statistical maps. Postcode information is also businesses in the UK space sector. [85394] 455W Written Answers8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 456W

Mr Willetts: The UK Space Agency, under my direction, representatives to business performance in the public is developing a UK data service to support businesses in sector to include the effect of such representation on developing new remote sensing products and services (a) numbers of employment tribunal cases, (b) the and to support their uptake by users in the public and number of working days lost due to workplace injury private sectors. In addition, the agency in partnership and (c) the incidence of work-related illness. [85613] with the Technology Strategy Board, invests in programmes supporting development of new remote sensing Mr Davey: I have no current plans to commission an technologies, services and applications. The International assessment of the contribution of union representatives Space Innovation Centre at Harwell, Oxfordshire provides to business performance. The following recent documents a focus for much of this support. give information on the benefits to employers and for The UK Space Agency is partnering with Lancaster industrial relations of having workplace union city council and the Inshore Fisheries Authority to representatives. develop Remote Sensing applications specifically to ‘Reps in Action’—how workplaces can gain from modern support activities in Morecambe bay. These include union representatives (URN 09/931) 2009 monitoring the movement of channels within Morecambe Workplace Representatives: a review of their facilities and bay and identifying habitats most likely to sustain shellfish facility time (URN 07/1464) 2010 beds. These are supported through the Government Information from the Space Sector (GIFTSS) programme. Work Experience

Steria Hazel Blears: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (1) whether he has Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, estimated the average cost incurred per week by a Innovation and Skills how many contracts his person undertaking an unpaid internship in London; Department has awarded to Steria since May 2010; and [84595] what the (a) purpose, (b) monetary value and (c) net (2) what estimate he has made of the number of worth was of each contract. [85479] people currently undertaking an internship in (a) the south-west, (b) the south-east, (c) London, (d) the east Mr Davey: The Department has awarded no contracts of England, (e) the east midlands, (f) the west midlands, to Steria since May 2010. (g) the north-west, (h) Yorkshire and the Humber, (i) the north-east, (j) Scotland, (k) Wales and (l) Northern Third Sector Ireland. [84596]

Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Willetts: I refer the right hon. Member to the Business, Innovation and Skills whether he has received answer I gave on 5 December 2011, Official Report, representations concerning (a) the Big Society Bank, column 174W. (b) the Work programme and (c) volunteering since June 2011; and if he will make a statement. [75066]

Mr Davey: As far as I am aware the Department has FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE not received any formal representations concerning the Big Society Bank or the Work programme since June Departmental Pay 2011. The Department has received a small number of representations related to volunteering in that time. We Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign welcome the creation of Big Society Capital (formerly and Commonwealth Affairs whether any senior staff in known as the Big Society Bank) which will provide new (a) his Department and (b) its Executive agencies and support for organisations which invest in the social non-departmental public bodies are paid by means of sector. payments to a limited company in lieu of a salary; and if he will publish his policy on such payments. [85078] Third Sector: Finance Mr Lidington: The Foreign and Commonwealth office, Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, its executive agencies and non-departmental public bodies Innovation and Skills what funding over £100,000 his do not make payments to individuals as a limited company Department’s Finance and Commercial Directorate in lieu of salary. All senior staff are directly employed, allocated to (a) the voluntary sector, (b) charities and are paid through payroll and have deductions for income (c) other third sector organisations in (i) 2010-11 and tax and national insurance contributions made at source (ii) 2011-12; and if he will make a statement. [85688] through standard PAYE arrangements.

Mr Davey: The Department does not separately identify Departmental Press Releases funding made to the voluntary sector, charities or other third sector organisations and the information requested Dr Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for can be provided only at disproportionate cost. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the answer of 29 November 2011, Official Report, column Trade Unions 862W,on departmental press releases, what representations his Department has made to those newspapers which Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for broke the embargo by reporting the contents in detail of Business, Innovation and Skills if he will commission the speech on intelligence matters on 16 November an independent assessment of the contribution of union 2011 before it was delivered. [84769] 457W Written Answers8 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 458W

Mr Lidington: The full text of the speech was embargoed is on the proposal by the Government of Ireland for an and this was not broken. amendment of the EU treaties submitted to the President of the Council of the European Union in July 2011 in Dr Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for accordance with article 48(2) of the treaty on European Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the Union. [85003] answer of 29 November 2011, Official Report, column 862W, on departmental press releases, whether a partial Mr Lidington: The content of the draft protocol was text of the speech was given to any media prior to 16 agreed by the UK—and all other EU member states—at November 2011; whether the publication of detailed the June 2009 European Council. The draft Irish protocol extracts from the speech which were published in contains clarifications in relation to the right to life, newspapers on the morning of 16 November were family and education; taxation; and security and defence. unauthorised; and if he will make a statement. [84770] It is helpful to the UK as it clarifies the limitations of the Lisbon treaty in a manner which is consistent with Mr Lidington: Some elements of this speech were our interpretation. Parliament will further scrutinise provided to the media in advance of delivery. As stated the document before the UK can agree to ratify the in my previous reply, all public statements are handled protocol as the draft protocol is subject to the scrutiny in accordance with the Ministerial Code and this was of the relevant parliamentary committees under the no exception. provisions of the European Union Act 2011. Embassies: Festivals and Special Occasions Israel Mrs Main: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will take steps to and Commonwealth Affairs how many embassies and encourage the British Ambassador to Israel to (a) visit other posts held events to celebrate (a) St George’s Beer Sheva and the Bedouin villages and (b) meet the Day, (b) St Andrew’s Day, (c) St Patrick’s Day and (d) Negev Coexistence Forum. [85006] St David’s Day in the last 12 months. [84900] Mr Bellingham: Our ambassador in Tel Aviv has Mr Lidington: The information is not held centrally visited the Negev and Beer Sheva on many occasions. and could be compiled only at disproportionate cost. He has raised UK concerns about Bedouin rights with Embassies are free to arrange events to celebrate patron the Israeli Government and discussed with Israeli Ministers saints’ days at their discretion. and officials the Israeli Government’s plans for the EU Law: Czech Republic relocation of the Bedouin community and their concerns. We remain in close touch with numerous Bedouin Chris Heaton-Harris: To ask the Secretary of State leaders and organisations, such as the Negev Institute for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what his policy for Strategies and Peace and Development. The ambassador is on the proposal by the government of the Czech plans to visit Bedouin villages and the Negev Coexistence Republic for an amendment of the EU Treaties submitted Forum in the near future. to the President of the Council of the European Union Linda Carty in September 2011 in accordance with Article 48(2) of the Treaty on European Union. [85005] Hazel Blears: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he has made Mr Lidington: The content of the draft protocol was representations to his US counterpart on behalf of agreed by the UK—and all other EU member states—at Linda Carty; and if he will make a statement. [84904] the October 2009 European Council. Protocol 30 on the application of the charter of fundamental rights to Alistair Burt: The Secretary of State for Foreign and Poland and to the United guarantees and clarifies the Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member way in which the charter applies. The draft Czech for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), wrote to US Secretary protocol is helpful to the UK as it makes clear that that of State Clinton in July and November 2010 about Ms the UK and Polish protocol on the charter of fundamental Carty’s case. Since the UK Government became aware rights shall also apply to a further member state, the of Ms Carty’s case in 2002, officials have maintained Czech Republic. Parliament will further scrutinise the regular contact with her, her legal team, her family and document as the draft protocol is subject to the scrutiny the UK non-governmental organisation Reprieve. I met of the relevant parliamentary committees under the with Jovelle Carty, Linda’s daughter, last year. The UK provisions of the European Union Act 2011 before the Government have also made their concerns known UK can agree to ratify the protocol. throughout the legal process and have submitted three amicus curiae briefs to the US courts in relation to the EU Law: Republic of Ireland case. The decision on Ms Carty’s case is a matter for the Texan authorities. We will continue to raise Ms Carty’s Chris Heaton-Harris: To ask the Secretary of State case, and the UK’s wider opposition to the death penalty, for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what his policy with the Texan authorities and Federal Government. ORAL ANSWERS

Thursday 8 December 2011

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 379 BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS—continued Adult and Community Learning...... 390 Graphene ...... 388 Apprenticeships ...... 392 Green Investment Bank ...... 391 Bank of Credit and Commerce International...... 386 Innovation and Research ...... 382 Business Start-ups...... 387 Life Science Discoveries ...... 385 Business Taxation ...... 393 Manufacturing...... 379 College Enhanced Renewal Grant...... 393 Radar Satellites ...... 389 Employment Law...... 381 Regional Growth Fund ...... 388 Exports (SMEs) ...... 384 Topical Questions ...... 394 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Thursday 8 December 2011

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 35WS HEALTH—continued Innovation and Research Strategy...... 35WS Winterbourne View...... 47WS Unlocking Growth in Cities ...... 35WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 48WS COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 38WS Advancing Transgender Equality...... 48WS Local Government Finance ...... 38WS G6 Meeting (Paris)...... 49WS Provisional Police Funding Announcement ...... 50WS DEFENCE...... 41WS Libya (Operation Ellamy) ...... 41WS Submarine Service...... 41WS JUSTICE...... 55WS Abolition of Committals ...... 55WS EDUCATION...... 42WS Academies Funding Transfer ...... 42WS NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 56WS Independent Reviewer of the Justice and Security ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 43WS (Northern Ireland) Act 2007 (Annual Report) ... 56WS New Nuclear Waste and Decommissioning Financing...... 43WS TRANSPORT ...... 56WS Bus and Community Transport...... 58WS ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Court Notification of Drink-Drive Offences...... 56WS AFFAIRS...... 44WS Water White Paper ...... 44WS TREASURY ...... 37WS FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 45WS Bank Levy Double Taxation Agreement Afghanistan (Outcomes of Bonn International (UK and Germany) ...... 37WS Conference) ...... 45WS RDEL Revisions...... 37WS

HEALTH...... 46WS WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 59WS Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer Affairs Council ...... 46WS Affairs Council ...... 59WS PETITIONS

Thursday 8 December 2011

Col. No. Col. No. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 5P PRESENTED PETITION Proposed cuts to BBC Radio Merseyside...... 5P HMS Concord ...... 5P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Thursday 8 December 2011

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 447W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS—continued Airports: Retail Trade ...... 447W Business: Equal Opportunities ...... 448W Apprentices...... 447W Copyright: Arts...... 448W Basic Skills...... 448W Debts ...... 449W Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS—continued EDUCATION—continued Departmental Audit...... 449W Education: British Overseas Territories...... 442W Departmental Civil Proceedings...... 450W Education: Design...... 442W Departmental Design...... 450W Education: Mothers ...... 442W Departmental Judicial Review...... 451W Music: Education...... 443W Departmental Official Hospitality...... 451W Schools: Admissions ...... 445W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 451W Schools: History...... 445W Higher Education...... 452W Schools: Inspections...... 446W Higher Education: Admissions ...... 452W Insolvency: Legislation...... 452W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 434W Manufacturing...... 447W Climate Change: International Cooperation ...... 434W Members: Correspondence ...... 452W Departmental Audit...... 435W National Savings and Investments: Post Offices ..... 453W Departmental Civil Proceedings...... 436W Overseas Students ...... 453W Departmental Judicial Review...... 436W Planning: Sculpture...... 453W Departmental Risk Assessment ...... 436W Post Codes ...... 453W Departmental Written Questions ...... 436W Public Expenditure...... 454W Electricity...... 437W Regional Growth Fund: EU Grants and Loans ..... 454W Electricity Generation...... 437W Space Technology ...... 454W Energy: Housing ...... 438W Steria...... 455W Green Deal Scheme...... 438W Third Sector...... 455W Nuclear Power Stations: Construction ...... 438W Third Sector: Finance ...... 455W Scottish Government ...... 439W Trade Unions ...... 455W Solar Power: Feed-in Tariffs...... 440W Work Experience...... 456W Warm Home Discount Scheme ...... 440W

CABINET OFFICE...... 398W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Advisory Services...... 398W AFFAIRS...... 402W Air Pollution: Cabinet Committees ...... 398W Air Pollution ...... 402W Charitable Donations: Fraud ...... 399W Air Pollution: EU Law...... 403W Government Departments: Databases...... 399W Biofuels: Pollution...... 403W Members: Correspondence ...... 399W Carbon Emissions...... 403W Public Sector: Part-time Employment ...... 400W Coastal Areas: Access ...... 404W Departmental Billing ...... 404W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 389W Departmental Buildings...... 405W Council Tax ...... 389W Departmental Chief Scientific Advisers ...... 405W Departmental Written Questions ...... 389W Nitrogen Dioxide ...... 405W Gurkhas: Finance ...... 389W Public Sector...... 406W World War II: Medals ...... 406W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT...... 400W Departmental Catering ...... 400W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE .... 456W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 400W Departmental Pay...... 456W Departmental Written Questions ...... 401W Departmental Press Releases...... 456W Gambling: Licensing...... 401W Embassies: Festivals and Special Occasions ...... 457W Horse Racing: Betting...... 401W EU Law: Czech Republic ...... 457W Mass Media: Young People...... 401W EU Law: Republic of Ireland...... 457W Israel...... 458W DEFENCE...... 425W Linda Carty ...... 458W Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations...... 425W Armed Forces: Education ...... 425W HEALTH...... 409W Armed Forces: Germany...... 426W Accident and Emergency Departments ...... 409W Armed Forces: Housing ...... 427W Community Nurses...... 409W Defence...... 427W Departmental Consultants...... 409W Departmental Civil Proceedings...... 428W Departmental Public Appointments...... 411W Departmental Communication ...... 428W Diabetes ...... 412W Departmental Procurement...... 428W Doctors: Vacancies...... 412W Departmental Property ...... 429W Eating Disorders ...... 412W Ex-servicemen: Employment...... 429W Health...... 413W HMS Protector ...... 429W Health: Salt...... 415W Joint Exercises: Costs ...... 429W Health Services: Ex-servicemen...... 413W Military Bases: Planning Permission...... 430W Health Visitors...... 414W Military Provost Guard Service...... 430W Health Visitors: Manpower...... 414W RAF St Athan: Airlines ...... 430W Health Visitors: Training...... 414W Herbal Medicine: EU Law ...... 415W DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 398W HIV Infection ...... 416W Electoral Register: Fraud...... 398W Injuries: Dogs...... 417W Lee Communications and Public Affairs...... 417W EDUCATION...... 440W Mass Media ...... 417W Academies...... 440W Medical Treatments: Lasers ...... 418W Children’s Centres: Finance ...... 441W Meningitis: Vaccination ...... 418W Departmental Judicial Review...... 441W Mental Health Services ...... 418W Design: Education...... 442W Mental Health Services: Ex-servicemen ...... 418W Col. No. Col. No. HEALTH—continued TRANSPORT ...... 421W NHS: Buildings...... 419W Airports: Retail Trade...... 421W NHS: Crimes of Violence...... 419W Electric Vehicles: Bicycles...... 421W Nutrition: EU Law...... 420W Northern Rail ...... 421W Orphan Drugs...... 420W Railway Stations: Manpower ...... 422W Rescue Services ...... 422W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 390W Severn River Crossing ...... 422W Civil Disorder ...... 390W Transport: Exhaust Emissions...... 423W Firearms: Crime...... 391W Metropolitan Police: Finance...... 391W TREASURY ...... 407W Police: Wales ...... 392W Capital Allowances: North East ...... 407W UK Border Agency: Correspondence...... 391W Credit Cards: Fees and Charges ...... 407W Excise Duties: Fuels ...... 407W National Savings and Investments: Post Offices ..... 407W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 424W Renewable Energy: North West...... 407W Departmental Civil Proceedings...... 424W Stamp Duties ...... 408W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 424W Stamp Duties: Tax Evasion...... 408W Ethiopia: Politics and Government ...... 424W Taxation: Gambling ...... 408W EU Aid: Family Planning...... 425W Tristan da Cunha ...... 425W WALES...... 387W Departmental Catering ...... 387W JUSTICE...... 431W Newport: Gwent ...... 388W Alternatives to Prison...... 431W Children: Abduction ...... 431W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 391W Departmental Audit...... 432W Employment and Support Allowance ...... 391W Departmental Written Questions ...... 432W Employment Schemes ...... 393W Prisoners’ Release: Sexual Offences...... 432W Employment Schemes: Apprentices ...... 393W Prisons: Postal Services ...... 433W Housing Benefit ...... 394W Reoffenders...... 433W Housing Benefit: Brent ...... 394W Housing Benefit: Females ...... 395W Housing Benefit: Social Rented Housing ...... 395W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 387W Housing Benefit: Wales...... 396W Departmental Audit...... 387W New Deal Schemes...... 396W Departmental Risk Assessment ...... 387W Pay...... 396W Social Justice Directorate...... 397W PRIME MINISTER ...... 388W Social Security Benefits...... 397W Research ...... 388W Unemployment ...... 397W St George’s Day ...... 388W Unemployment: Ex-servicemen...... 397W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. 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CONTENTS

Thursday 8 December 2011

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 379] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills

Water White Paper [Col. 401] Answer to urgent question—(Richard Benyon)

Core Cities [Col. 410] Answer to urgent question—(Greg Clark)

Business of the House [Col. 419] Statement—(Sir George Young)

Opposition Day [Un-allotted half day] Public Sector Pensions [Col. 431] Motion—(Hywel Williams)—on a Division, negatived

Local Government Ombudsman (Amendment) Bill (Money) [Col. 485] Motion Resolution—(Robert Neill)—agreed to

Low Dose Naltrexone [Col. 490] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall European Council [Col. 151WH] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 35WS]

Petitions [Col. 5P]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 387W] [see index inside back page]