Setting the Rules Dean Baker
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Setting the Rules: Dean Baker in conversation with The Straddler On Monday, February 7th, The Straddler traveled to Washington, D.C. to speak with Dean Baker at the Center for Economic and Policy Research, where he is co-director. Baker, an economist, is the author of numerous books and articles which challenge the terms of debate at play in economic discourse. Beat the Press, his blog, examines how economic issues are reported in major outlets like the New York Times, Washington Post, and Wall Street Journal. His most recent book, Taking Economics Seriously (MIT Press), argues that “market fundamentalism does not exist.” Rapidly rising inequality over the past thirty years has been the result, according to this view, of “conservative restructuring of the economy, not the natural workings of the market. ” Dean Baker, February 7, 2011 There is no such thing as just “the market.” You have to set the rules. Sometimes that might be fairly simple; often it’s very complicated. The idea that there is one group of people out there that wants an absolute free market—whatever that could possibly mean—versus another group that wants regulation is silly. The real debate is about how to structure markets. In other words, what are we trying to do? What are the goals? But we have a framing that says one side is for regulation and the other side is for deregulation. And yet, rarely does the side that says it’s for deregulation actually want deregulation. Take finance as an obvious example. When they were talking about removing restrictions on financial companies in the 1990s, you didn’t find a lot of people who wanted to get rid of deposit insurance. And you didn’t see a lot of people in September of 2008 saying get the government away from me. They didn’t want to get rid of “too big to fail.” And you didn’t see them saying they wanted to get rid of access to the Fed’s discount window. So I see a story where the side that is ostensibly for deregulation isn’t really for deregulation. In the case of finance, what they want is an insurance policy without paying for it. Corporations themselves are creations of the government. You and I could have a partnership and we’re going to go do business and if we get into trouble, we get sued. But if we set up a corporation that does x, and x goes badly, we’re off the hook. We’re not liable. They go after the corporation. That’s a rule made by the government. And that might be a good rule—I’m not saying it’s a bad thing to have corporations. But the point is, you can’t tell me you’re a strict free- market libertarian and you’re for corporations. Those are inconsistent views. Take the rules of corporate governance. One of the things that I’ve argued is that the rules of corporate governance have been exploited in recent years so that to a large extent corporations are run for the benefit of top management. That’s why you get people receiving tens of millions a year and sometimes hundreds of millions a year in pay. It’s not that they’re so brilliant—in many cases they’re wrecking their companies, we saw that with the financial crisis. But they basically pick the people who are deciding their pay. Your friends are on the board, why shouldn’t they pay you tens of millions of dollars? Those are rules of corporate governance. And we could have different rules of corporate governance that would make it very difficult for, say, General Electric or Citigroup to be run first and foremost for the benefit of top management. Another example is minority shareholder protection. Say we’ve got a great idea: we’re going to take over General Electric. We’re going to get 50.1 percent of the stock and tell the remaining 49.9 percent they’re out of luck, we own the company. You can’t just do that. There are very detailed rules that protect minority shareholders. There are all sorts of rules like this. So it’s hard to imagine how you could have corporations and not have rules. Economists and journalists often get very, very sloppy with their terms. Take free trade agreements, which are anything but. Usually, a trade agreement like NAFTA, or the one we’re currently talking about negotiating with Korea, frees up investment flows. But in almost all of these agreements, there is nothing about freeing up trade in highly paid professional services. I’ve had any number of arguments with economists who tell me that there is free trade in professional services because the doctor they see was born in India. It’s kind of the Mexican avocado theory of international trade. I can go to the grocery store and get an avocado that was grown in Mexico. Have I now proved that we have free trade in agriculture? Of course not. There are all sorts of restrictions, and the reality is that it’s very difficult for a person who was trained in India, even trained to U.S. standards, to come here and work as a doctor. And that’s quite deliberate. Now, if instead of focusing on making it easier for us to produce our cars, our steel, our textiles in Mexico or India, we wanted to make it easier for someone in India or China or whatever country it is to get the skills, train to our levels, learn English if they don’t know it, and come here and work as a doctor, we’d get lower cost health care. We’d have doctors who were willing to work for much less than the doctors that we have in the United States. But no free trade economists are interested in that. All big proponents of free trade who talk about lowering the wages of auto workers and textile workers don’t talk about lowering the wages of doctors, lawyers, and economists. They don’t want to talk about that. They can’t even think about that. So there’s this terminology of free trade that is picked up by economists and reporters, and behind it is this very important substantive point: what we’re calling free trade is pushing down the wages of a substantial segment of the workforce relative to those who are still protected. Now, there are a couple of issues here related to immigration. Some types of labor are space specific. So if we want people to pick crops in Ohio, they have to be in Ohio to do that. If we want to import finished products from Mexico, people can stay in Mexico. So that obviously brings up the issue of immigration. When we talk about the number of immigrants who come into the country it’s usually separated out from trade agreements. Very few people are willing to say, okay, we’re just going to have open borders, and I’m sympathetic to that because that would mean you’d have hundreds of millions of people coming to the United States because it’s a very attractive place relative to a lot of poorer countries. But the other issue is, insofar as you do have immigrants coming here, what are the terms on which they’re coming? The discussions about this haven’t always been totally honest. The fact that you have a lot of immigrants in low-wage areas—well, that’s because we let them in. You have a lot of people in the United States who want to blame the immigrants for driving down wages, but if you want to blame someone, blame the employers. This is conscious policy. Everyone in government knew that there were millions of people working in restaurants, working in people’s houses as nannies or gardeners or housekeepers.That wasn’t a secret. It was conscious policy to allow that. There’s interesting economic research on this. A lot of the research says many of these immigrants don’t compete with U.S. workers. Now, I’m skeptical of some of this research for reasons not worth going into, but accepting it at face value, the implication is that you’ve developed an underclass which is so far below U.S. wage standards that these jobs are no longer competing. That means two things. One is that we have this underclass—we’ve brought in people who are earning at a level that is so low that even our people who don’t graduate high school are not competing. Another point is that people who didn’t graduate high school used to have a lot of those jobs. So if we’ve brought in so many immigrants that the wages are so low that people who didn’t graduate high school won’t take them, that’s hardly reassuring. Still, you get this very strange discussion where people talk about a labor shortage. But if you believe in a market, what the market is telling you is that you have to raise wages. But instead of people saying raise wages, they say there’s a shortage. Of course, if you raise wages, costs go up. I sometimes make a joke: I can’t get a doctor to treat me for twenty bucks an hour. So is there a shortage of doctors? No, you have to pay a doctor more than twenty dollars an hour. It’s the same thing with restaurants.