Seanad Éireann

Vol. 230 Wednesday, No. 5 5 March 2014

DÍOSPÓIREACHTAÍ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES SEANAD ÉIREANN

TUAIRISC OIFIGIÚIL—Neamhcheartaithe (OFFICIAL REPORT—Unrevised)

Insert Date Here

05/03/2014A00100Business of Seanad ��200

05/03/2014A00300Order of Business ��200

05/03/2014H00100Reform of Further Education and Training: Statements��212

05/03/2014O00200Visit of AWEPA Delegation ��223

05/03/2014O00400Reform of Further Education and Training: Statements (Resumed) ��224 Action Plan for Jobs: Statements ��234

05/03/2014HH00100Child Protection: Motion ��259

05/03/2014UU00100Adjournment Matters ��287

05/03/2014UU00150Mental Health Services Provision ��287

05/03/2014VV00450Human Rights Issues ��289 SEANAD ÉIREANN

Dé Céadaoin, 05 Márta 2014

Wednesday, 05 March 2014

Chuaigh an Cathaoirleach i gceannas ar 10.30 a.m.

Machnamh agus Paidir. Reflection and Prayer.

05/03/2014A00100Business of Seanad

05/03/2014A00200An Cathaoirleach: I have received notice from Senator Mary Moran, on the motion for the Adjournment of the House today, she proposes to raise the following matter:

The need for the Minister for Health to address the lack of a child psychiatrist and mental health services for children with an intellectual disability in the Louth area and the further need for services for children with an intellectual disability in the 16 to 18 age group.

I have also received notice from Senator Denis O’Donovan of the following matter:

The need for the Minister for Foreign Affairs to acknowledge the ongoing persecution of Christians in many parts of the world, in particular Syria, Iran and Iraq where Christians are unable to practice their faith.

I regard the matters raised by the Senators as suitable for discussion on the Adjournment and they will be taken at the conclusion of business.

05/03/2014A00300Order of Business

05/03/2014A00400Senator Maurice Cummins: The Order of Business is No. 1, statements on the reform of further education and training and the apprenticeship system, to be taken at 11.45 a.m. and to conclude not later than 1.30 p.m., with the contributions of group spokespersons not to exceed eight minutes, those of all other Senators not to exceed five minutes and the Minister to be called on to reply to the debate not later than 1.20 p.m.; No. 2, statements on the Action Plan for Jobs, to be taken at 3 p.m. and to conclude not later than 5.30 p.m., with the contributions of group spokespersons not to exceed eight minutes, those of all other Senators not to exceed five minutes and the Minister to be called on to reply to the debate not later than 5.20 p.m.; No. 200 5 March 2014 45, motion 6, Private Members’ business, to be taken at 5.30 p.m. and conclude not later than 7.30 p.m.

05/03/2014A00500Senator Denis O’Donovan: I ask the Leader to outline what stage the legal services Bill has reached. It has been promised for the past three years but seems to have been sidelined for whatever reason. When will it come before the House?

My primary reason for rising to speak is to ask the Leader to recognise that the Govern- ment, last evening, accepted on principle the protection of residential mortgage holders Bill and allowed it to pass Second Stage in the Lower House. That is an important acknowledgement of the work done by Deputy Michael McGrath. My difficulty is with the commitment that the Minister and the Government have given to introduce the legislation in 2015. Due to the urgent nature of this matter and my desire to protect vulnerable mortgage holders I ask the Leader to give a clear commitment and convey a message to Government that 2015 is too late to introduce such legislation. The sale of Irish Nationwide is imminent and Danske Bank, the Royal Bank of Scotland and the ACC Bank are all in the process of exiting the Irish market. What about their customers? The danger here, which is acknowledged by senior Government figures, is that these vulture capitalists - most of whom are neither European nor American - are buying the loan books. The kernel of the Bill, which was introduced by Deputy Michael McGrath in the Lower House, is that the code of conduct on mortgage arrears currently applied by the Central Bank will also apply to those taken over by these vulture capitalists. They must be protected. Even though the Government accepted the principle of the Bill in the Lower House, it is too dangerous to kick it to touch for another 12 months. That will be too late for many concerned mortgage holders. Many of them are beleaguered and under pressure so they need such protection. As bad as things are at the moment, at least there is some protection under the aegis of the Central Bank. There will be no written guarantee until the Government’s proposed legislation is introduced in 12 months’ time and passed to ensure that such mortgages are protected. It is an extremely serious issue.

I ask the Leader to comment on how the Water Services (No. 2) Bill 2013 applies to rural water schemes. Many such schemes have not been taken in charge by the local authority, so they appear to be in limbo. Perhaps the Leader could enlighten me about what is available for those schemes for which trustees were established. Hundreds of people have got water from some excellent schemes but they have not reached the final stage whereby the local authority takes charge of them. They are now the responsibility of Irish Water. Unfortunately, those schemes that are three-quarters baked are not currently under the control of a local authority or Irish Water, so that limbo situation should be addressed. Perhaps the Leader could acknowledge the difficulty and tell us where these people stand.

05/03/2014B00200Senator Ivana Bacik: Like others, I wish to call on the Leader again to organise a debate on Ukraine. At the moment, things are at a very difficult stage. I commend the Tánaiste, Deputy Gilmore, for calling in the Russian ambassador yesterday to make clear Ireland’s view that a peaceful resolution is essential. Anyone who saw the extraordinary footage last night of the unarmed Ukrainian soldiers bravely confronting heavily armed Russian troops in an attempt to take back their bases on their own territory in Crimea, will know just how commendably the Ukrainian armed forces are responding. They are not being provoked by the extreme provoca- tion they are facing from Putin’s policies in Russia. We all very much hope that there will be a peaceful resolution. We also hope that the European summit this week will have an impact on Russian policy and that the Ukraine will manage to hold onto its territory.

201 Seanad Éireann Following the National Women’s Council report, I also wish to ask the Leader to arrange for a debate on the creation of a gender-balanced and women-friendly Oireachtas. My colleague, Senator Hayden, raised this issue yesterday. Many of us attended the launch by the National Women’s Council of its publication entitled A Parliament of All Talents: Building a Women- Friendly Oireachtas, which features Senator Susan O’Keeffe. It was launched yesterday by the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Joan Burton. The National Women’s Council has done a huge amount of work in preparing this report which makes recommendations on how the Oireachtas could become more women-friendly, and how we could see more female parlia- mentarians coming forward.

The electoral amendment legislation we have passed, which provides for gender quotas, will have a transformative effect in the next general election in ensuring that we will see more women elected to the Dáil and hopefully also to the Seanad. The report’s recommendations would make the Oireachtas a better place for all of us, both men and women, to work in. I previously put similar recommendations before the Seanad Committee on Procedure and Privileges, and might do so again. Following discussions at the CPP, we could then have a debate to see how we can examine our own internal working procedures to make them more family-friendly.

I am also seeking a debate on diversity in the workplace generally. Yesterday, I attended the launch of a report by GLEN, the Gay and Lesbian Equality Network, supported by Ernst & Young and Trinity College. The excellent survey examines diversity in light of the experience of LGBT employees in the workplace. The survey of 600 employees describes their experiences of difficulties with coming out and discrimination at work. It commends employers who have managed to achieve a good experience of diversity in the workplace and who have benefited as a result. A lot of work has been done on the benefits to employers of ensuring inclusion and better diversity in the workplace. I am therefore seeking a general debate on diversity in the workplace, based on both reports.

05/03/2014B00300Senator Feargal Quinn: Once again this week we have practically no legislation coming through this House. We have had very little in recent weeks and I gather that we might not have much coming next week either. We have to do something about that dearth of legislation. The Leader could grasp some of the procedures we have suggested and recommended for Seanad reform. We could do it without waiting for somebody else to do it for us. Could we not do something about European legislation ourselves, rather than waiting for the other House or the Government to day, “Yes, here’s what you can do”? It is in our own hands, so we should do it.

Today’s newspapers report that Ireland is in ninth place for innovation of the 28 EU member states, so we are way down the line. There is no place in business for those who wait for somebody else to do something. That applies not just to the business sector, but also to this House. We must stand up and do it ourselves. This is a real opportunity for us to do something like that and I suggest that we could do it with European legislation on that basis. The Leader should grab hold of this proposal. If we are not going to be given legislation, let us grab hold of it ourselves and do something about it. Let us be the innovators and set an example of what we can do. It does not only apply to business or Government, but is also a way of life. If Ireland is going to succeed, we have got to do it ourselves. This is a real opportunity to do something in this House by introducing legislation or examining European legislation. That is part of what we have proposed in the Seanad Reform Bill. If we are to have a healthy and successful Seanad in future, we must do it ourselves. I urge the Leader to do something about this in the immediate future.

202 5 March 2014

05/03/2014B00400Senator Aideen Hayden: I wish to make one point about the sale of the INBS loan book. I congratulate Deputy Michael McGrath for introducing legislation to try to protect the interests of mortgage holders who have mortgages with the Irish Nationwide Building Society. It is important to remember that the latter company was the original sub-prime lender in this country and there is a serious impairment on that loan book. However, the proposed legislation will not be enough to protect mortgage holders with the INBS. Appearing before the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, the liquidator said in defence of why they would not include compliance with the code of conduct on mortgage arrears as an essential part of the sale of the loan book, that it would impair the value they would get for the sale of that business. He also made the point that any prudent pursuer of the loan book would want the loans to be performed and therefore there was no real issue to address. The bottom line, however, is that there is absolutely no protection for those mortgage holders because that loan book is going to be sold off in bits and pieces. The most profitable bits of the loan book will clearly be the first to go. There is no follow-on protection for those mortgage holders when, not if, that loan book is sold on.

More important, there is no protection against increases in interest rates beyond what we would regard as normal for those mortgage holders. In this respect, changing the law is not enough. No domestic mortgage under State control, as the INBS loan book is, should be sold off at all. It should be transferred to NAMA and administered as such in future. With due respect to Deputy Michael McGrath, no real protection can be offered to those mortgage holders unless the mortgages remain within the control of the Government.

05/03/2014B00500Senator Paschal Mooney: Last week, I raised the issue of what I believed to be a trend in the Irish hospitality sector to increase prices across the board. I instanced a personal experience I had which in some quarters was received with tongue in cheek. I was, however, trying to make an important point which it seems has now been borne out by the most recent statistics published in today’s media. They show that Ireland has moved from being the 34th most expensive country last year to the 21st this year.

I regret to say that one of the premier tourist locations in this country - I would say it is the premier one outside of Dublin - namely, Killarney, has not come out of that survey very well. I would suggest to the hospitality sector not to be tempted, because there is an upturn in the economy, to increase its prices. Costs have been kept down in recent years and, given the current fragile state of the Irish economy and particularly in light of a slight improvement in tourism revenue and numbers in the last year, there is no justification for the sector to increase its prices at this stage. There should be a period of patience and waiting. If there is any justification for it, I would like to see it. I would like to hear from the Irish Hotels Federation and the tourism interests why they are justifying these increases in prices. It will damage the Irish tourism industry, perhaps not so much in Dublin, where tourism is booming, but in other parts of the country that are struggling. This is particularly the case in my own area, the north west, which traditionally has had to fight very hard and go that extra mile to increase and attract more visitors. In this I include the entire north west and the Border counties.

I make a plea to the Leader that the Minister, Deputy Varadkar, or the Minister of State, Deputy Ring, or both, would come before the House and indicate what is Government policy in this regard. They are the first out of the blocks, as any Minister would be, whenever there is good news to be imparted to the public. This is not a good news story; it is a bad news story for Ireland. I would like to hear from the Ministers responsible as to what it is they believe should be done to encourage the Irish hospitality sector to hold the line on this and not to be tempted 203 Seanad Éireann to increase prices just because there is a slight upturn in the tourism sector.

05/03/2014C00200Senator Paul Coghlan: When I hear mention of that premier tourism resort, naturally-----

05/03/2014C00300Senator Denis O’Donovan: Was that Kinsale?

05/03/2014C00400Senator Paul Coghlan: It is a beautiful place too, further down the Atlantic trail. With regard to Killarney, I am surprised to hear my colleague, Senator Mooney, say what he has said. I am not aware of that survey-----

05/03/2014C00500Senator Paschal Mooney: It was in the newspapers last week. I am only quoting what was in the newspapers.

05/03/2014C00600Senator Paul Coghlan: I would like to have a discussion with the Senator on it. We cannot believe everything we read in the newspapers. Killarney offers great value for money-----

05/03/2014C00700Senator Paschal Mooney: The facts speak otherwise, I am afraid.

05/03/2014C00800An Cathaoirleach: We cannot have a discussion across the floor. Has Senator Coghlan a question for the Leader?

(Interruptions).

05/03/2014C01000Senator Paul Coghlan: I would like to counter what has been said because I am in touch with the Irish Hotels Federation, including Conor Hennigan and others who are leaders in that regard in Killarney. I recently had to make inquiries about a conference coming up in Sep- tember. I know that for four star hotels in Killarney - I can discuss two of them afterwards with Senator Mooney - the value people are getting for the week they want to spend there is outstanding. I do not accept and do not understand the survey. It may be a once-off-----

05/03/2014C01100Senator Terry Leyden: It is €199 for two nights.

05/03/2014C01200Senator Paul Coghlan: I can do a lot better than that for the Senator.

05/03/2014C01300Senator Terry Leyden: Give me a call.

05/03/2014C01400An Cathaoirleach: Has Senator Coghlan a question for the Leader?

05/03/2014C01500Senator Paul Coghlan: We should not just be flying off and frothing at the mouth, although I am not accusing Senator Mooney of that. We have to be careful about what we say here. As I said, I am not aware of the survey but I will look into it. I do not believe it because I know from my practical experience it is not true.

05/03/2014C01600Senator Sean D. Barrett: I presume the House would welcome President Clinton to Ire- land today. He is in Derry at lunchtime to honour John Hume, he is then launching a new Clinton Institute at Queen’s University Belfast this evening, and, of course, he is renewing his contacts to this country through the Cassidy family in Fermanagh. I propose to the Leader that we debate Northern Ireland. The peace process has to be worked at and we have not discussed it for some time. I also suggest it is again time to look at the issue of the absence of an American ambassador in this country since December 2012. Ireland and the United States have one of the closest international friendships in the world and it should be graced by an ambassador here. I do not know why the US authorities have been neglecting that important role.

204 5 March 2014 I also note the views of Frank McDonald, a distinguished environmentalist and expert on buildings and architecture, that the ESB buildings near here, mentioned yesterday, should be restored as residences and that there are many available office blocks where the commercial aspects of what the ESB does in the Fitzwilliam Street could be carried out. It would be a better project to restore the residences on that street rather than have an office block behind a Georgian facade. I recall, a long time ago, when the then Minister, Erskine Childers was in charge of that area, he said the drawings that were presented to him of what those offices would look like differed a lot from what was constructed. I believe it is time for some vigilance to ensure that a piece of Dublin’s Georgian mile can be restored in harmony with its surroundings.

05/03/2014C01700Senator Denis Landy: I wish to raise the issue of the new service for the provision of national driving licences. Last year the Government decided to take the provision of the service from the local authorities and set up a new organisation. A contract was given out, centres were set up across the country and people had to attend these centres during working hours to get their new driver licences. This has turned into a fiasco in some areas. In the early weeks of last year the system stalled and nobody could get any work done despite the fact people had taken time off their employment to go to the centres to have their licences issued.

The issue was raised in the Lower House in December with the Minister, Deputy Varadkar, who has responsibility for this service. In response to the issue raised, the Minister intimated that it needed time to bed in and that, if the difficulties continued, he would look at the matter. In the last week, in my own county of Tipperary, the system again stalled and people who had taken time off work to go to the new driving licence centre wasted their day. It is time the Minister, Deputy Varadkar, took a serious look at this.

The other difficulty is the location of the centres. For example, in all of Kerry, there is only one centre, in Tralee, and in all of Cork, there are only two, in Cork city and Skibbereen. In my own county, the biggest inland county in the country, there are only two, in Clonmel and Ne- nagh. People have to take time off work and travel to these places to discover, in some instances, that the service does not work. They then have to go back again, wasting time when they should be at their workplace. It is time the system was looked at and time the Minister, Deputy Varadkar, did what he said he would do, that is, to review and make changes if necessary.

In the last week we have had a lot of discussion in regard to the role of post offices, particularly in rural Ireland. I see this as an opportunity for post offices to play a part in the provision of the new driver licence system. Post offices could be used in the areas I have outlined and in other parts of the country where there are large gaps in the provision of this service. This could help to enhance the role of post offices across the country. I ask the Leader to raise this matter with the Minister, Deputy Varadkar, with a view to involving the post office in the provision of this service.

05/03/2014C01800Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Ba mhaith liom moladh a thabhairt do na Seanadóirí atá ag úsáid na Gaeilge an tseachtain seo. B’fhéidir go dtabharfaidh said spreagadh do dhaoine eile beagáinín Gaeilge a úsáid sna díospóireachtaí a bheidh againn i rith Seachtain an Gaeilge an tseachtain seo agus an tseachtain seo chugainn.

I would like to commend a theatre production that a number of us saw last night, which is produced between Garter Lane Arts Centre, Everyman Palace and Project Arts Centre. It is “Dreamland” by Jim Nolan, which is a very good production and well worth a visit this week, if people get a chance to see it. It deals with the rise of fascism in the 1930s in Ireland, which 205 Seanad Éireann is a theme I was discussing in Bilbao over the weekend. I was lucky enough to be invited to a conference there which was to coincide with the visit of the IMF to Bilbao and was focused on the impact of troika economics on a number of states and regions across Europe.

One of the themes that came across from a number of the speakers was the rise of fascism across Europe, which is becoming a very serious problems in places like Greece, Portugal and Spain. The state of their economies and the impact socially of troika programmes was under discussion especially given that in many regions and states the negative impact of what has happened has been very serious. There was a huge protest in Bilbao, with tens of thousands of people on the streets.

11 o’clock

It is important for us not to forget that even though we are apparently out of our own bailout programme, bailouts are still happening across Europe and are having a massive negative impact in places like Greece, Portugal, Italy and Spain. We even had speakers from Germany highlighting the difficulties in that country for people in lower income brackets. Now we have the news that the troika is coming back to check our copybooks in the near future. We were told we were out of its grasp, but it is clear now that we will be under its tutelage until 75% of the banking debts are repaid. It is important to have a debate on the impact of troika economics and austerity policies throughout Europe, including their social impact in member states that are still in bailout programmes. Those countries are dealing with serious unemployment and social problems, cutbacks in health services and so on. It would be a useful debate and a reminder that we must not forget our comrades across Europe.

05/03/2014D00200Senator Michael Mullins: I congratulate the manager of the Clare hurling team, Davy Fitzgerald, on his openness and frankness in his speech to students at the Limerick Institute of Technology in recent days on the issue of alcohol and other substance abuse in sport. He is in a great position to demonstrate that when a group of players decides to pursue a path of absti- nence from alcohol and other substances, it can achieve something very significant.

Mr. Fitzgerald’s speech dovetails nicely with the launch yesterday of the all-party Oireach- tas group on alcohol misuse. I attended a very powerful presentation in the AV room by four people - a nurse from University Hospital Galway, a paramedic with the National Ambulance Service, a person working in the drugs and alcohol service, and Mr. Alastair Campbell. The nurse, Ann Burke from Galway, asked a very relevant question, namely, whether politicians really know what is happening in emergency departments late at night when we are all safely tucked up in our beds, the level of violence nurses have to endure and the horrific injuries with which patients present. Other speakers spoke of eight and ten year old children looking after their brothers and sisters while their parents are abusing alcohol. In short, a very frightening picture was painted. I applaud Alcohol Action Ireland for organising the seminar in conjunction with the all-party Oireachtas group on alcohol misuse.

It would be appropriate, in advance of the publication of the public health (alcohol) Bill, for the Minister of State at the Department of Health, Deputy Alex White, to come to the House for a frank discussion on the urgency of addressing these issues. The number of lives that are being destroyed and the increasing cost to the health service are a matter of national urgency. The sooner the legislation is brought forward and the recommendations of the various groups that fed into the Bill are implemented, the better. I ask the Leader to organise that debate in the coming weeks. 206 5 March 2014

05/03/2014D00300Senator Terry Leyden: I support the call by Senator Ivana Bacik regarding the situation in Ukraine. It would be very worthwhile to have the Tánaiste come in and brief the House on the situation. It is still very tense in the region and there is no evidence of a united approach from the European Union. This morning we heard the Foreign Minister of Spain complimenting the Russian Foreign Minister on oil agreements, tourism from Russia and other issues which are not of paramount importance in the context of the situation in Crimea. A house divided will not stand and it is imperative that we see a more unified approach from the EU. Meanwhile, a tape played on “Tonight with Vincent Browne” last night showed the influence of the United States Department of State, with the ambassador in Ukraine recommending applicants for ministerial positions in the interim, unelected, Government of Ukraine. The situation is very tense but we hope it will be resolved peacefully. It has repercussions globally, including for us in Ireland.

Given that this is International Women’s Week, will the Committee on Procedure and Privi- leges consider inviting Ms Anne Brasseur from Luxembourg, the newly elected President of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, to address the House?

05/03/2014D00400An Cathaoirleach: The Senator should forward his request to the CPP.

05/03/2014D00500Senator Terry Leyden: Ms Brasseur was in contention for the post with Bob Walter from the European Democratic Group.

05/03/2014D00600An Cathaoirleach: The leader of the Senator’s group is a member of the CPP and can raise the issue there.

05/03/2014D00700Senator Terry Leyden: I am sure he will do so. It is interesting to note, this being Inter- national Women’s Week, that the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe has elected a woman as President for the first time in some 30 years. It is a clear indication of progress. I was delighted to support Ms Brasseur’s nomination, as she was the outgoing president of the Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe of which I am vice president. I am delighted we were successful in securing her election.

05/03/2014D00800Senator Paul Coghlan: The Senator ran a good campaign for her.

05/03/2014D00900Senator Terry Leyden: I certainly did. Will the Cathaoirleach, as Chairman of the CPP, recommend that Ms Brasseur be invited to the House to address us? I have no doubt she will make a very interesting and worthwhile contribution. I hope my female colleagues will be sup- portive of my proposal.

05/03/2014D01000Senator Marc MacSharry: I propose an amendment to the Order of Business that the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, notwithstanding his attendance here yesterday, come to the House again today to discuss the position of mortgage holders with what was the Irish Nationwide Building Society and is now the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation. While the other House accepted the principle of the Fianna Fáil Bill to give protections to this group, it is vital that we have a debate on the issue in this Chamber. Like universal health insurance, this issue is being put on the never-never by the Government. We are told there is agreement in principle with what my party has proposed, but the issue is effectively being kicked down the road, to be looked at, perhaps, in a year or so. As Senator Hayden said, this simply is not good enough.

The banks’ balance sheets show that 1,500 houses have been repossessed, two thirds of them owner occupied properties and one third buy to lets. We have no regional breakdown of these 207 Seanad Éireann figures. What is the Government’s plans in terms of follow-up actions? Of the 1,000 families that are now out of their homes, how many are on housing lists, in rented accommodation or homeless? We do not have anything in place to determine their status. I agree wholeheartedly with Senator Hayden that the right protections are not in place. Notwithstanding Members opposite wrestling with their conscience three years ago in regard to our Family Home Bill, which would have given very specific support to families in respect of the family home, the decision was made to leave the banks in absolute control. The secret stairs to which Senator Barrett often refers that allows access for bankers and developers to the Department of Finance seems to exist no matter who is in government.

The reality is that the Government is taking a hands-off approach to all of this. Pointing out this inaction is not to absolve previous Governments any more than it is to absolve the current Government, but inaction it is. Being placated with assurances that we have brought forward a worthwhile proposal is not good enough. Having a Private Members’ Bill accepted on Second Stage is merely an empty victory if the Government is simply going to push the issue onto the never-never. It is not good enough. Principles and talk are cheap; what we need is action to protect family homes. Where are the 1,000 families whose homes have been repossessed? We know nothing about them. As Senator Hayden rightly observed, the number of repossessions will only increase. We had a very respectful debate with the Minister yesterday, but it is worth nothing.

05/03/2014D01100Senator Maurice Cummins: There were not many Members in the Chamber.

05/03/2014D01200Senator Marc MacSharry: I was here and spoke very respectfully while making my political points. While I appreciate having the Minister here, five minutes is worth nothing. As finance spokesman on the other side of the House, I recall speakers being allowed 20 minutes each in certain debates on finance and the economy. Yesterday, I had hardly started my contribution when it was time to finish.

05/03/2014D01300An Cathaoirleach: Will the Senator clarify the amendment he is proposing?

05/03/2014D01400Senator Marc MacSharry: I am proposing that the Minister come to the House to indicate specifically what the Government’s plans are to follow up on the issue of mortgage arrears, particularly in respect of mortgages taken out with the Irish Nationwide Building Society.

05/03/2014D01500Senator Jim Walsh: Ba mhaith liom aontú leis an Seanadóir Ó Clochartaigh i dtaobh an dualgais atá orainn an Ghaeilge a chur chun cinn anseo, go mórmhór i rith Seachtain na Gaeilge. Is mór an náire é nach bhfuil suim níos láidre ag an Rialtas seo inár dteanga dúchais a phlé agus a chur chun cinn.

I second the amendment proposed by Senator MacSharry on the IBRC loan book. I fully concur with Senator Hayden’s comments in this regard. It is, as I stated last week, an abroga- tion of our duty, obligation and mandate as elected representatives to abandon the people we are supposed to represent, many of whom are in a highly vulnerable position. I refer specifically to mortgage holders, some of whom are in arrears and experiencing great difficulty meeting their repayments and keeping a roof over their heads. It is appalling that the Government has suggested deferring addressing this matter until 2015. A number of mortgage books could be sold in the meantime, which would place tens of thousands of people at risk of losing their homes. I remember the House sitting through the night in recent years to rescue the banking system. Could we not do the same for citizens who have suffered as a consequence of the lack

208 5 March 2014 of prudential banking and the irresponsibility shown by the banks, the Department of Finance and our regulatory authorities?

I support the call for a debate on Ukraine, which is a serious issue with many ramifications and implications. I would like Europe to follow the approach taken by Chancellor Merkel who has engaged directly with the Russian President to resolve the matter amicably through a de- escalation of the situation. The Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs appeared before the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade yesterday. He should come before the House for a full debate on this important European topic.

05/03/2014E00200Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: I support the call for the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, to come before the House again. While his visit yesterday evening was very useful, I was only allowed to speak on the issue of economic recovery and job creation for one minute. I would like the Minister to return to the House to discuss mortgage arrears.

I have noticed a conflict between the position on the ground in respect of mortgage arrears and the position suggested in media reports. Last Monday week, I was at a meeting in Oran- more with 90 people who are experiencing difficulty with debt. They included people who have been in arrears for five years and are deeply worried they will lose their homes. Two people have disclosed at private meetings that they plan to take their lives as a result of mortgage arrears. There is not a more important issue. I concur with Senator Jim Walsh on this occasion.

05/03/2014E00300Senator Jim Walsh: Only on this occasion.

05/03/2014E00400Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: If we must sit through the night to help people in mortgage arrears, as we did in the case of banks and the public finances, let us do so.

I invite all Senators to visit the Members’ private dining room where we are hosting Hand in Hand, the only dedicated childhood cancer charity in the country.

05/03/2014E00500An Cathaoirleach: The matter is not relevant to the Order of Business.

05/03/2014E00600Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: It is relevant.

05/03/2014E00700An Cathaoirleach: The Senator has other means available to her to send out that message.

05/03/2014E00800Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: I beg the Cathaoirleach’s indulgence. Hand in Hand operates in eight counties in the west and north west and is expanding nationally. It requires assistance to survive.

05/03/2014E00900An Cathaoirleach: The matter is not relevant to the Order of Business. I call the Leader.

05/03/2014E01000Senator Maurice Cummins: Senator O’Donovan, the Acting Leader of the Opposition, inquired about the Legal Services Regulation Bill. I understand the legislation went to committee on 12 February. As the Senator is aware, it is a lengthy Bill and it will take some time to dispose of it in committee. Report Stage must also be taken in the Dáil before it is introduced in the Seanad. As such, it will be some time before it comes before the House.

A number of Senators raised the issue of mortgage arrears and referred to a Bill introduced in the other House last evening. As Senator O’Donovan stated, the Government agreed in principle to expedite legislation. However, the wheels of government grind slowly where legislation is concerned. I will raise with the Minister the concerns expressed by Senators with a

209 Seanad Éireann view to expediting the legislation. I will also inquire on behalf of Senator O’Donovan about the position regarding rural water services and the water services Bill.

Senator Bacik and other Senators raised the issue of Ukraine, on which I provided a comprehensive report yesterday. I have invited the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade to come before the Seanad, even though he addressed the Joint Committee on Foreign Af- fairs and Trade on this matter yesterday. Senator Bacik also raised a report published yesterday by the National Women’s Council. I agreed to ask the Minister of State at the Department of Health, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, to come to the House for a discussion of the report.

Senator Feargal Quinn referred to the dearth of legislation before the Seanad. It is regret- table there is so little legislation before us. We have recourse to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, which I hope will hold a lengthy meeting next week. The Government has made proposals to change the procedures of the Houses. Senator Quinn also referred to the possibility of the Seanad examining the European work programme. There is no European legislation as such, although there are EU directives. We could certainly move on the issue of the Euro- pean work programme as soon as possible. I presume a Minister would have to be present if we were to perform that role.

I note the strong points made by Senator Hayden on the issue of mortgage holders.

Senator Mooney referred to the hospitality sector, an issue that was also raised by Senator Paul Coghlan. It is important the sector remains competitive. I will ask the Minister, Deputy Varadkar, or the Minister of State, Deputy Ring, to come to the House to outline tourism policy. We have been highly successful in this area, with tourist numbers increasing in the past year or two.

Senator Barrett expressed concern that the United States has still not appointed an ambassador. I hope the matter will be addressed in the next week or two, perhaps on St. Patrick’s Day. I also note the Senator’s comment on the ESB building on Fitzwilliam Street, a matter which was also raised by Senator Norris yesterday.

Senator Landy called for a review of the current position regarding driving licences to assess the possibility of using post offices for driving licence renewals. I will bring the matter to the attention of the relevant Minister.

Senator Ó Clochartaigh referred to the impact of troika economics on Ireland and the rest of Europe and called for a debate on same.

Senator Mullins raised the issue of alcohol and substance abuse. The all-party group on alcohol abuse met yesterday and Senator Noone provided a report to the House on the Order of Business yesterday. I agree a debate is needed because alcohol abuse is a scourge on which action must be taken. The Minister of State, Deputy Alex White, has been asked to come to the House to debate the issue.

I note the points made by Senator Leyden on the current position in Ukraine. I am sure he will raise at the Committee on Procedure and Privileges the possibility of inviting the President of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe to address the House.

On the Irish language, which was raised by Senator Jim Walsh, the Government is committed to the promotion and use of the Irish language. The Minister of State, Deputy McGinley,

210 5 March 2014 will come to the House on Wednesday next to discuss the 20 year strategy for the language.

I do not propose to accept Senator MacSharry’s amendment.

05/03/2014E01100An Cathaoirleach: Senator Marc MacSharry has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business: “That a debate with the Minister for Finance on the steps the Government proposes to take to protect mortgage holders, including those with Irish Nationwide and those in arrears, be taken today.” Is the amendment being pressed?

05/03/2014E01200Senator Marc MacSharry: Yes.

Amendment put:

The Seanad divided: Tá, 14; Níl, 20. Tá Níl Barrett, Sean D. Bacik, Ivana. Byrne, Thomas. Brennan, Terry. Crown, John. Burke, Colm. Cullinane, David. Clune, Deirdre. Daly, Mark. Coghlan, Eamonn. Leyden, Terry. Coghlan, Paul. MacSharry, Marc. Comiskey, Michael. O’Donovan, Denis. Cummins, Maurice. O’Sullivan, Ned. D’Arcy, Jim. Power, Averil. Hayden, Aideen. Quinn, Feargal. Higgins, Lorraine. Reilly, Kathryn. Keane, Cáit. Walsh, Jim. Kelly, John. Wilson, Diarmuid. Moloney, Marie. Moran, Mary. Mulcahy, Tony. Mullins, Michael. O’Keeffe, Susan. O’Neill, Pat. Sheahan, Tom.

Tellers: Tá, Senators Ned O’Sullivan and Diarmuid Wilson; Níl, Senators Paul Coghlan and Aideen Hayden.

Amendment declared lost.

Question, “That the Order of Business be agreed to”, put and declared carried.

211 Seanad Éireann

05/03/2014H00100Reform of Further Education and Training: Statements

05/03/2014H00200An Leas-Chathaoirleach: I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Education and Skills, Deputy Ciarán Cannon, to the House. Following the Minister of State’s statement, group spokespersons will have eight minutes and all other Members will have five minutes. I will call on the Minister of State to reply not later than 1.20 p.m.

05/03/2014H00300Minister of State at the Department of Education and Skills (Deputy Ciarán Can- non): I am very pleased to have the opportunity to address the House on the major structural reform and policy changes under way in our further education and training sector and to set out the proposed changes to our overall apprenticeship model. The further education and training sector is undergoing major structural change and its reform is an integral part of the Govern- ment’s overarching public sector reform agenda. The principal aim of that reform is to have a public service which is responsive to the needs of its users generally and, in this instance, to the needs of learners and trainees. It has been acknowledged that the further education and training elements of the sector developed in a somewhat ad hoc fashion as two quite separate sectors with their own ethos and practices. In my early days in this portfolio, I noted that significant duplication of delivery was a feature of certain sectors. Equally, there was not much sharing of knowledge, experience or educational content across all of our provision nationally. By es- tablishing SOLAS, we are certainly setting out to face that challenge. The Government and the Department of Education and Skills recognised that the lack of co-ordination in the running of certain parts of the further education and training sector represented an obstacle to the provision of a highly regarded service that could assist the unemployed and learners.

The establishment of SOLAS has served to give the entire sector a unique identity and brand. This was sadly lacking in the past when it was seen as a kind of Cinderella sector, comprising what was left over when every other element of educational provision had been accounted for. It now has its own unique identity, as it should. That is what is happening under SOLAS. The Government took the view that major structural changes were required in this sector. We decided that a fundamental rethink of how we provide these services, and how people can access them, was needed. We realised that at a time of scarce resources, we needed to plan carefully and where necessary prioritise funding towards those most in need. The economic downturn saw the number of unemployed people increase to unprecedented levels. The sector struggled to provide unemployed people with relevant training and education programmes. It was recognised that programmes that were responsive to the needs of industry and would enhance the prospect of the unemployed obtaining employment had to be given priority.

I think it would be useful at this stage to outline the various structural changes that have taken place as a result of the passage of various Bills through this House. Following the establishment last year of SOLAS and 16 education and training boards, the former functions of the 33 vocational education committees and the FÁS training services were transferred to the new bodies. The Education and Training Boards Act 2013 and the Further Education and Training Act 2013 provide the legislative basis for these structural changes. The 16 education and training boards were established on 1 July 2013 and SOLAS was established on 27 October 2013. The education and training boards assumed responsibility for the delivery of primary, post- primary and further education from 1 July 2013. 212 5 March 2014 SOLAS will bring a much-needed strategic direction to this sector. It will enable and empower the new education and training boards to deliver an integrated further education and training sector for our people. Seven SOLAS training centres located within the geographic areas of the city of Dublin, Dublin and Dún Laoghaire, Cork and Kerry education and training boards were transferred to the relevant education and training board with effect from 1 January 2014. The remaining 12 SOLAS training centres will be transferred to the relevant education and training boards on 1 July this year. The whole process of handing over the training facilities that were dotted around the country will be completed by July of this year. When these structural changes have taken place, the system will be able to focus on how we plan and provide education and training services. It should be noted that as the reform of the further education and training sector has progressed, it has become apparent that the sector has many similarities within its overall provision and has significant strengths which will be built upon. I think Sena- tors will agree that bringing together the expertise and wisdom that have been accumulated over decades of provision in the further education and training sectors under one organisation will be a powerful development in the area of further education and training provision for the future. They will also agree that there are many challenges in developing an integrated further education model. I do not doubt that process will be completed in an efficient and effective manner.

Arising from a troika commitment, the National Economic and Social Council carried out a review of the delivery of further education and training in Ireland. The review primarily examined the changes might be required so that the current provision can meet the skills needs of the economy and, in tandem, address the unemployment challenge. The council’s review will form a key input into the development by SOLAS of a further education and training strategy, which will give us a roadmap for the future. The development of this strategy is at an advanced stage. It is expected to be submitted to the Minister for Education and Skills by the end of this month. In addition to the further education and training strategy, SOLAS is also developing an integrated further education and training services plan for 2014. It will provide information on the entire range of further education and training that is funded by my Department. It will set out in detail how the State’s investment of €826 million in 2014 will be used by the education and training boards and by SOLAS to advance current policy objectives. As I have mentioned, the newly configured education and training boards replace the vocational education committees. The Act articulates the functions of the boards to better reflect the existing and future role of these bodies in the provision of education and training to learners of all ages in schools and in other settings. The role is considerably wider than the original concepts of vocational and technical education which were set out in the 1930 legislation which governed vocational education committees.

It is worth mentioning the establishment of Intreo offices by my colleague, the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Burton. These offices are designed to provide a more realistic and targeted approach to supporting unemployed individuals, particularly the long-term unemployed and young people, and helping them to stay close to the labour market. This approach will ensure regular and ongoing engagement with the unemployed to provide opportunities for work, education and training. Effective engagement between education and training boards and the Department of Social Protection, including the Intreo offices, is absolutely crucial as a vital component of a well-functioning further education and training system. While local protocols have been put in place to achieve that, a great deal of work needs to be done to better define recruitment and referral arrangements and ensure the relationship with employers works more effectively.

213 Seanad Éireann When an individual who is unemployed approach his or her local Intreo office, a suite of advice should be made available to him or her. The supports of the Department of Social Protection are available to help him or her through the time he or she spends without a job. More importantly, a map back to employment is developed for each individual. This involves determining what his or her existing skill set is and what sort of career path he or she intends to embark upon, and advising him or her on the excellent further education and training opportunities that can be availed of in the local region to help him or her on the path back to work. The education and training boards will be operating within their own regions. They will carry out ongoing research on the skills shortages that are currently occurring in the region and might occur in the future. On foot of that, training and further education opportunities will be tailored to respond to the skills challenges that are emanating from each respective region.

This is an exciting time to be involved in further education and training. There is a real opportunity to build on and integrate the range of provision developed over time and shape a coherent, strong and sustainable sector for the future. This sector has to be built around the needs of learners. When they approach their local Intreo offices or their local education and training boards, they have to feel they are being treated with the dignity and courtesy they deserve. People who are out of work have to be assured that they are embarking upon a meaningful interaction with their local education and training boards that might help them back into employment. Options should also be available locally to people who are in employment and who wish to advance their careers.

As part of the Government’s action plan for jobs initiative, my Department undertook a review of the Irish apprenticeship system to determine whether the current model should be retained, adapted or replaced. The review was tasked with taking into account the needs of learners and industry and ensuring our system offers value for money and is cost-effective and sustainable into the future. The current apprenticeship system was developed and implemented in the early 1990s. Over the subsequent 20-year period, there have been major changes in our economy and in the way in which people are employed. As I mentioned earlier in the context of further education and training reform, the economic downturn highlighted a number of issues with the current system - particularly, the high level of apprenticeships associated with the construction sector. The system was seen to be inflexible. The relatively high costs to employers and the State needed to be examined.

By its nature, the apprenticeship system is employer-led. A key feature of any revised system would be the alignment of the education and training provision with the needs of the labour market. The review was undertaken in two stages. The first stage was the preparation of a background issues paper in the Department of Education and Skills.

12 o’clock

The second stage involved the establishment in May 2013 of an independent review group, chaired by Mr. Kevin Duffy who is the Chair of the Labour Court. Membership of the group included employers - one of whom was a nominee of the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and In- novation - representatives of business and unions and academic experts. The review group worked exceptionally well and undertook a substantial consultation process with all major stakeholders, as well as inviting submissions from members of the public. In that context, 69 written submissions were received by the review group. The group also arranged meetings with 25 organisations which provided their views on how best to develop a revised apprenticeship model. The group’s comprehensive report was completed in December 2013 and was pub- 214 5 March 2014 lished on the Department’s website in January.

In its report, the independent review group endeavours to find a solution to the various issues raised in the preparation of the background issues paper and the views expressed during the consultation process. The group made a number of recommendations regarding a new structure for apprenticeship, which is envisaged as being relevant to a much wider group of industries. For example, in Ireland there are perhaps 24 or 25 career options which one can take up through the apprenticeship model whereas in Germany there are 330. The question that arises is how we encourage young people and, more important, their parents to look beyond the normal understanding of what apprenticeship meant in Ireland in the past and recognise that it can apply to many other career opportunities which may not be apparent at this point. Recom- mendations were also suggested in relation to current apprenticeships.

The review group believes that the framework and recommendations set out in its report provide a workable model for a well-functioning apprenticeship system which will serve Ire- land’s future needs. The Minister, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, and I are in agreement with the broad thrust of the recommendations contained in the report. Those recommendations require further detailed discussion to identify how best implementation can be addressed. This matter is being progressed by my Department, with initial engagement with key stakeholders to take place as quickly as possible.

I reassure Senators that the Government is determined that the outcome of the major structural changes I have outlined will ensure we will have a further education and training sector that is fit for purpose and that is responsive to the needs of both learners and industry. The sector will equip people with the skills and training necessary to allow them to take up employment opportunities as they arise.

I must again state that I am grateful for the invitation to come to the House for this debate. I look forward to hearing Senator’s views and contributions.

05/03/2014K00200Senator Averil Power: I welcome the Minister of State and commend him on visiting New York at the weekend for the “St. Pat’s For All” parade. It was important there was a Govern- ment representative at that inclusive function in New York. Unlike the official St. Patrick’s Day parade in the city, the “St. Pat’s For All” event recognises the diversity and inclusiveness of modern Ireland. I am glad the Minister of State attended.

These statements relate to two topics, namely, the further education and training sector and the apprenticeship system. As the Minister of State indicated, the further education and training sector developed incrementally over time. It initially grew out of post-primary education and began life as a relatively small sector. Now, however, it is a huge element of the overall education system. More than 50% of students involved in further education are over the age of 21. In reality - if not in statute nor always in policy - the sector has become distinct and has developed its own identify over a long period. As the Minister of State outlined, this has not always been recognised by the education system or the Department. This has led to a great deal of incoherence. There have been occasions on which further education colleges have benefited from some grants given to post-primary schools but not from others. For example, they might benefit from one round of the summer works scheme but not the next. They have been covered in respect of broadband services under the IT grants but not for networking. I presume most of this occurred not on the basis of any deliberate prejudice or discrimination but rather as a result of a lack of thought. People whose attention is focused on other sectors sometimes forget to 215 Seanad Éireann include the further education and training sector as a result of the fact that it has traditionally fallen between the two stools of higher education and post-primary education.

There was another example of this late last year when the general scheme of the education (admission to school) Bill was published. At the time I was contacted by the further education committee of the National Association of Principals and Deputy Principals, NAPD, which also made a submission to the Joint Committee on Education and Social Protection and which pointed out that under the general scheme, as published, it appeared the further education and training sector would be captured by the Bill. This is because the draft scheme states that post-primary schools cannot, in the context of admissions, distinguish between students on the basis of prior academic achievement, interviews, portfolios, etc., all of which are central to being able to decide upon someone’s suitable for certain post-leaving certificate, PLC, courses. When I wrote to the Minister, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, in respect of this issue and highlighted the concerns of the NAPD, he replied that an issue potentially exists and he will address it. This again highlights the fact that if the further education and training sector is not taken into consideration when decisions relating to other sectors are being made, then there can be unintended consequences for that sector. With the establishment of SOLAS, I hope the sector, which, as the Minister of State indicated, has a unique identity, will be given the credence and priority it deserves.

On apprenticeships, there is a need for a fundamental rethink in respect of vocational education in this country. The apprenticeship model developed in response to the needs of construction related sectors and traditionally involved the training of carpenters and electricians. However, it is relevant to many more areas. In its submission in respect of the review of the apprenticeship model, IBEC stressed that a large number of opportunities exist in this regard. The economy has changed dramatically since the model was first conceived and it is in this context that the opportunities to which I refer arise. There are those who advocate a system whereby people would be involved in a mixture of academic studies and on-the-job training. I welcome the review, which was published in January. I hope its recommendations will be given priority and implemented with some haste. This is because there is an issue with unemployment in the context of upskilling people and getting them involved in sectors where vacancies exist.

There is a need to engage in long-term planning to ensure we have the right mix and the correct type of education and training to meet emerging needs in a changing economy. The apprenticeship has taken a real hit in recent years. In the past year, the number of people pursuing apprenticeships was just 20% of the figure it was at the height of the boom. It is clear the existing model has all but collapsed and that a fundamental re-evaluation is required. In addition to considering apprenticeship as a separate sector and linking in with employers to ensure we put the right programmes in place, we must also learn lessons from the review and apply them in respect of second level education. We could learn a great deal, for example, from the German system of vocational education. From the age of 16, students in Germany are able to choose two very different routes. If traditional academic education is appropriate to one’s needs, one can choose that path. I understand that 50% of students in Germany go the university route and the remaining 50% take the vocational route. The latter engage in a mixture of training in the classroom and work experience. This is exciting for young people because it gives them the opportunity maximise their talents, pursue their own interests and obtain relevant on-the-job training during their teenage years.

We could learn a great deal from the German system, which is also good for employers because it gives them the chance to mould future employees in the context of their education. 216 5 March 2014 In addition to the review of the apprenticeship system relating to adults, I hope we will also consider the lessons which can be learned and then applied to the second level education sector. I do not believe adequate priority has been given to this in recent years. Many schools are struggling as a result of cuts to the pupil-teacher ratio, PTR. The Minister, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, often states that schools now have more flexibility because, with guidance counsellors gone, they can use teachers for other purposes. The reality is that the ability of schools to offer subject choices has declined in recent years. They are experiencing particular problems in the context of offering some practical subjects. It is a shame, especially in the current environment, and we are seeing a drop in the number of students taking the leaving certificate applied for similar reasons. These are matters of resources and esteem, as it is not seen within schools as being a route of education equal in value to the traditional leaving certificate and the move to university. There is a concept of a universal goal for everyone to get a university education and be a teacher, lawyer or doctor. We should instead encourage all young people, if they are good with their hands or more practical, to excel in such areas. As well as delivering on the changes in the adult side through SOLAS, will the Minister of State seek to ensure the Department of Education and Skills will embed the attitude of vocational education or practical training in our second level system?

05/03/2014L00200Senator Jim D’Arcy: I thank the Minister of State for coming to the House to address this very important issue. In an ever-changing world where many of the jobs that will be available in future have not yet been created, the provision of further education and training is a complex albeit essential part of our planning for employment. Although we are creating 1,000 jobs per week, the numbers of people unemployed, particularly long-term unemployed, are still very high. For many people, training in new skills is necessary to give them the opportunity to get back into the workforce. Training is also necessary for those in employment to give them security into the future.

For these reasons, education and training for employment and life is now a lifelong process. The provision of this type of education and training is the responsibility of education and training boards, and the Bills which came through last year on this issue were among the most important legislative developments in the life of this Government. The Minister of State mentioned the review of apprenticeship training in Ireland undertaken by a group led by Mr. Kevin Duffy, chairman of the Labour Court, which made several recommendations. The Minister of State and the Minister, Deputy Quinn, accepted the broad thrust of those and looked to examine them, and it is in that context that I will make a few points on the report.

One of the recommendations was that every apprentice should be employed under a contract of apprenticeship. That contract should be with the State rather than an employer. For example, we do not have a contract for education with employer schools for trainee teachers, and that raises the question of why we should have a contract of apprenticeship and with whom it is envisaged the contract would be. Providing for future school needs from an apprenticeship perspective is equal in importance to providing future educational needs for third level education, and surely both sets of students should be treated equally. If there is to be a contract, it should be with the State in both cases. We fund third level education, so we should fund further education and training similarly and equally.

Another recommendation is that all apprenticeship programmes should be reviewed and updated, with potential expansion of apprenticeships explored. These new areas should be identified by employers and it is correct for employers to be heavily consulted. Ultimate responsibility in this regard should be vested in the further education section of the Department 217 Seanad Éireann of Education and Skills, with SOLAS reporting on that. In this regard, the ESRI should be in a position to predict and inform us of future skills requirements in an accurate fashion.

For example, one could ask how many carpenters, plumbers and electricians are needed in the building industry and the answer would probably be none. Efficient planning demonstrates that, in future, it is estimated a certain number of carpenters, plumbers and electricians will be needed to service needs and give those who might wish to work abroad the necessary skills. The ESRI should make recommendations to SOLAS in this regard, as individual industries are more likely to focus on immediate needs. Additionally, it might be useful to have a quota system in place to regulate the numbers of skilled tradespersons for each sector and prevent over- supply. This may be similar to the cap system for further education and training or post-leaving certificate places. These should be divided among different colleges and training centres in the 16 education and training boards rather than concentrating on selected areas. It is estimated that 500 apprentice plasterers are needed to service future needs and I would encourage those places to be divided among the different education and training board areas, offering access to the trade nationally while training is offered locally. This can be repeated with other skills.

The setting up of education and training boards is a significant step forward and should lead to much greater expertise and efficiency in the delivery of much-needed skills for the students involved with the jobs market. I hope this will lead to less duplication of courses. The service of both FÁS and the old vocational education committees will be bigger and better under the new banner of education and training boards. I have yet to be convinced that we have gone far enough in recalibrating the training centres which were under the FÁS domain and are now the responsibility of the education and training boards within which they reside. There are five education and training board areas that have no training centres, including Cavan-Monaghan, Carlow-Kilkenny, Tipperary, Laois-Offaly and Kildare-Wicklow. These areas will be served under some form of service level agreement or memorandum of understanding with other education and training boards. I am not convinced this is the safest or best approach, and we should oversee the decommissioning of FÁS just once and correctly.

05/03/2014L00300Senator Martin Conway: Well said.

05/03/2014L00400Senator Jim D’Arcy: I have much more to say but I have run out of time. I am passionate about this area, and I know the Minister of State shares that feeling. I am the son of a shoe fac- tory worker and I know the future of the ordinary people in this country is at stake. We need to give this our very best shot, and I know the Minister of State is giving it everything.

I have a point on the provision of courses in education and training boards. Traditionally, for example, a fantastic photographer may give a photography course but with the new structure, the likes of Neven Maguire cannot give a cookery course. A fitter or joiner from Moffatt’s engineers or Tara Mines cannot teach students the trade. We should look at some way, perhaps by means of a tutoring system, to allow those people to continue to be involved in further education and training. I thank the Minister of State for coming to the House. I encourage him to keep up his good work.

05/03/2014M00200Senator Sean D. Barrett: I welcome the Minister of State and I thank him for his address on this important subject area. The Minister of State referred to the 330 apprenticeship options Germany compared to 24 to 25 in Ireland. We need to achieve the German level of apprenticeships without the inferior status associated with apprenticeships in Ireland. I refer to the OECD paper, Getting Youth on the Job Track, which takes up the Minister of State’s point. 218 5 March 2014 Countries such as Austria, Germany and Switzerland have a long-standing tradition of apprenticeship schemes based on a dual approach and associated with good labour market outcomes for participants. The dual system is a combination of apprenticeship and vocational training. The main characteristics of the German model of apprenticeships combines learning time at a vocational school with learning time at a host company. With reference to Senator D’Arcy’s contribution this would mean an apprenticeship could spend some time in school and some time with Neven Maguire. That is a great idea. I can think of no better man to be involved in something like this. If he is as good in the classroom as he is on the television screen I have no doubt he would inspire people. Any course in leadership training should include the participation of people like Seán Boylan or Neven Maguire. We should take the advice of our German, Austrian and Swiss colleagues.

In the German system, employers and social partners are engaged in the design, running and financing of the system. It is important to have employers involved in order to help to bridge the gap between education and employment and to prepare students to be ready to turn up on time and stay for the day, to get to know the customers and work colleagues. Those are very valuable skills. Schemes in which employers are involved tend to have higher success rates.

We have heard many sermons from IBEC on the deficiencies of the education system. In return for the 12.5% corporate tax rate - one of the lowest in the world - I suggest IBEC members should put money into some of the schemes. If there is a shortage of skills in a particular area then I suggest IBEC puts its money where its mouth is and join with the education system. We are among the most generous countries in terms of low corporate taxation and the corporate sector should know that the Government and Members of this House would want some recip- rocation for that.

The third characteristic of the German system is that employers have the opportunity of hir- ing young workers who are ready to work, with a resulting reduction in spending on recruitment and training. The employees have a recognised qualification, together with related and relevant work experience. That is why I headed back to my office to get some of these documents when I heard the Minister of State speak about the 330 apprenticeships because he is on the right track in this regard.

I refer to the very fine Oireachtas Library and Research Service which has provided a briefing paper to Members. Up to 2013, the cumulative decline in youth employment in Ireland was almost 60%. This represented a drop from over 357,000 employed youth in the summer of 2007 to 148,000 at the beginning of 2013. While there has been a modest increase in overall employment figures recently, these increases have not materialised in the youth category, with many young people continuing to exit the labour force either by returning to education and training or emigrating.

I refer to mistakes made in the past and about which the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Joan Burton, has spoken. During the boom there was a tendency to reclassify people as “disabled” or those on invalidity benefit. Keeping them in education and training has much to commend it. Much of the apparent reduction - down to 4% at its lowest - in the unemployment rate was as a result of this reclassification. Opting out of the labour force and becoming a permanent dependent category does not have anything to recommend it.

Ireland’s youth unemployment rate used to be one of the lowest at 9.1% before 2008 but it is now 30.4% as against the EU average of 23%. We have ground to make up. Even though 219 Seanad Éireann it was hard medicine there was method in the Government’s cut in social welfare payments to young people in the recent budget because we want people to continue to acquire qualifications in advance of an improvement in the economy. There is a need to re-adjust between the high prestige attached to higher education and the lesser prestige attached to further education. I regard one as the route to the other, in that success in further education will provide a basis in classroom study for future higher education to degree level. There are some concerns that courses in higher education with very low points requirements might not be of any great use and that instead, a spell in further education and staying in touch with the workforce and then progressing to higher education, might be a better proposition. Some CAO courses have a very low points entry requirement. One questions whether those students at 18 years of age with low points are able to take on the full responsibility of a full-time higher education course.

The Minister of State referred to the role of the education boards as the delivery of primary, post-primary and further education. I ask the Minister of State to expand on the precise role of the education boards in primary education. Senator D’Arcy referred to spare buildings which could be used for primary school purposes. I do not think the role of the education and training boards in primary education was spelled out during discussion of the legislation in the House. I would be interested to hear how it is progressing.

As the OECD has said and as the Minister of State has hinted, it is most important to learn the lessons from Switzerland, Austria and Germany and to bring our apprenticeship system up to their level. So much of the adjustment has been by means of the huge reduction in the number of young people employed in Ireland, from 357,000 in 2007 to only 148,000 in 2013. We owe that generation a lot and I will support the Minister of State in any measures to remedy the situation.

05/03/2014M00300Senator Mary Moran: I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Cannon, to the House to discuss the reform of further education and training and the apprenticeship system. The review group was set up in May 2013 with the remit to examine the future of apprenticeships and to consult with the relevant stakeholders such as training-providers, employers and unions. We are still struggling to transition from an apprenticeship system centred on the construction sector and related trades. There is ample opportunity for an apprenticeship culture to take hold in other employment sectors. This will require us to build on the already close partnerships that exist between training providers, Departments, employers and apprentices to collect data in order to make the system as effective and relevant as possible and to branch the system into new sectors.

The findings of the review group were published at the end of January. These highlighted the strengths in the current system, including positive feedback from learners and employers - such feedback is always important, as it is from this that we learn the most - the close partnership between education, training providers and employers, active participation by the trade unions, the significant contribution made by craft persons to energy provision, infrastructural development, manufacturing, the high-tech sector, transport, construction and the high demand for Irish apprentices internationally. We have a strong foundation on which to build these reforms.

The group proposed actions that would change the landscape of the apprenticeship system, one of the most important of which was the expansion of the system into new business and industrial sectors, with employers taking on the role of identifying occupations that would be suitable for apprenticeships. Another key and commonsensical recommendation was that of a 220 5 March 2014 constant review of apprenticeships and adapting placements and qualifications on a trade-by- trade basis over time. Flexibility and expansion in the system are crucial to providing quality placements for those seeking to pursue apprenticeships.

I strongly echo the call by the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn, earlier this year that apprenticeships should not predominantly appeal to men. I recall the first time I called an electrician to my house many years ago. I believe I was just married. I was amazed and delighted to find that a female apprentice accompanied the electrician. Senator D’Arcy referred to Mr. Neven Maguire, the male chef. Thank God we are branching out from occupations being predominantly male or female. It is good to see men in the kitchen, too.

This weakness was identified by the review group and could be addressed by refocusing our apprenticeship system to encapsulate the new business and industrial sectors. We could see an increase in female interest in and take-up of apprenticeships if this were to be done. A part of the male-dominated nature of apprenticeships was the strong focus on construction-related work.

A key component has been in place since the start of the year when SOLAS came on stream. With the establishment of the 16 regional education and training boards, ETBs, this has put the structural elements that are required to reform the apprenticeship system in place. I look forward to continued engagement and debate on the ETBs’ performance and reiterate my hope that they will actively and positively engage, not only with the relevant government structures, but with the apprentices, employers and trade unions, and will continue building on the strong foundation. The Minister has requested that the review group’s recommendations be discussed further with stakeholders with a view to progressing to implementation. I look forward to the completion of this process and a further debate when the outcomes have been announced.

Since long before the collapse, there has been a call to align training and education with job market demand more closely. The Department of Education and Skills and the Minister of State were instrumental in ensuring that this specific goal was included in the Action Plan for Jobs 2014. While live register figures have decreased for 19 consecutive months, we still have an unacceptable unemployment rate and continue to strive to provide opportunities for the long-term unemployed. The Action Plan for Jobs 2014 places a priority on further education and training for these people. Prior to the plan, the Department of Education and Skills co- ordinated with employers in the Irish market and Dundalk Institute of Technology in my area to establish courses that focused on in-demand skills.

I continue to be concerned about the collection of data. In this regard, I noted Dr. John Sweeney’s autumn 2013 review for the Department. He shared the same concern, citing a list of principles that should guide the strategy for further education and training over the short to medium term with the robust evaluation of outcomes based on ongoing collection and assessment of data key to creating and adapting successful programmes. We have been left with the previous Government’s legacy of little self-assessment. The main focus will always be on as- sisting the long-term unemployed, school leavers, early school leavers, persons with disabilities and others who wish to upskill. However, we must also focus on assessment in this area if we want to continue providing the appropriate training, apprenticeships and education.

We have many legacy issues to deal with, but more than could previously have been imag- ined have already been addressed. The Government is working to achieve reform through the establishment of SOLAS and the 16 ETBs, a complete and ongoing review of the apprentice- 221 Seanad Éireann ship system with further consultation, the alignment of job market needs with education and training courses and opportunities, and continued engagement with the relevant stakeholders. Unfortunately, reform on a whole-country basis may not come as quickly as we would like. I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiments voiced by Senator D’Arcy, in that, if we are to do it, we must do it once and do it right.

05/03/2014N00200Senator Martin Conway: Hear, hear.

05/03/2014N00300Senator Mary Moran: However, it must be recognised that major changes in the structure and culture of further education and training and the apprenticeship system are under way. This is welcome. I look forward to the continued progress and development of further opportunities for the long-term unemployed, school leavers, early school leavers, people with disabilities and those who wish to upskill.

05/03/2014N00400Senator Diarmuid Wilson: I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Cannon, back to the House that, not so long ago, he felt should be abolished because it was surplus to the requirements of our democratic process. Nevertheless, the people of the country spoke. I hope that the Minister of State did not reluctantly enter the House, an important pillar of our democracy.

05/03/2014N00500Senator Martin Conway: I am sure he was delighted. Why would he be reluctant?

05/03/2014N00600Senator Diarmuid Wilson: We will not get into that any further, if my colleague does not mind.

05/03/2014N00700Senator Mary Moran: Ministers are always delighted to come to the Seanad.

05/03/2014N00800Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell: Senator Wilson raised the matter.

05/03/2014N00900Senator Diarmuid Wilson: I certainly did.

05/03/2014N01000Senator Martin Conway: I assure the Senator that the Minister of State is delighted to be present.

05/03/2014N01100Senator Diarmuid Wilson: Like some Members on that side of the House, when I say something, I mean it.

05/03/2014N01200Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell: Most of us are present.

05/03/2014N01300Senator Diarmuid Wilson: I expect that, when the Minister of State says something, he also means it. I was merely drawing his attention to the fact that he firmly believed that this House should not exist as part of our democratic system and campaigned to that effect in his constituency. That is a fact.

05/03/2014N01400An Leas-Chathaoirleach: We should stick to the statements on education.

05/03/2014N01500Senator Diarmuid Wilson: If the Minister of State wants to disagree with that fact, he is welcome to do so. This is a democracy, after all.

The further education and training sector provides an important educational pathway for unemployed, disadvantaged learners and second chance learners to access specialist labour-focused courses and to secure employment. During the debate on the legislation that established the ETBs, I stated my firm belief that this is one of the most important sectors of our education system. I paid tribute to all of the personnel working in that system, particularly those in the 222 5 March 2014 further education and training sector. It is an area with which I am familiar and I am proud to have been associated with it for many years, having worked for the County Cavan Vocational Education Committee, VEC. As the Minister of State mentioned, the 33 VECs became 16 ETBs on 1 July of last year with responsibility for providing primary, post-primary, further education and, importantly, training for their jurisdictions.

I commend everyone who has contributed to this debate, particularly Senator Jim D’Arcy, who said everything that I wanted to say. I am aware from the Minister of State’s speech that some of the training centres have been given over to a number of ETBs, with 12 still to be transferred. However, the Cavan and Monaghan ETB in my area of the north east has been given no resources to provide training. I firmly believe that the board is entitled to the necessary budget and personnel to provide training in its area. If we are going to dismantle FÁS and establish SOLAS then we should do it right. I agree with Senator Jim D’Arcy in this regard. Senator Moran referred to the matter in her contribution as well. The education and training boards charged with responsibility to provide training should be given the necessary personnel and resources. Otherwise, we will end up with the former FÁS training centres remaining as FÁS training centres, albeit under a different name. I wish to alert the Minister of State to the fact that our education and training board will be demanding the budget and the personnel to which we are entitled under the legislation. Senator D’Arcy pointed to the fact that joint service agreements can be signed. However, I put it to the Minister of State that the Cavan and Monaghan education and training board will not be signing any agreements with any other education and training board. I am not mentioning the other four because I am not aware of their attitude to this. Anyway, we will provide our own training in our area. We are entitled to the budget and we will demand it.

Reference was made to apprenticeships and I agree with the sentiments of many speakers in the House this afternoon in respect of how vocational education and apprenticeships run hand in hand. The vocational end has worked successfully and I am very familiar with it in respect of Youthreach trainees who have progressed to pre-apprenticeship training. The vocational and apprenticeship elements worked hand in hand and were successful in this area.

Senator Barrett referred to Neven Maguire, who is a proud west Cavan man. Rightly, he would not be entitled or qualified to teach in some of these institutions but he is an excellent instructor in his art. He is opening a culinary college in County Cavan in the near future and we wish him the best of luck.

I cannot emphasise strongly enough that we will be demanding that education and training boards are provided with proper funding and personnel to carry out the training that they are mandated to carry out under the Act.

05/03/2014O00200Visit of AWEPA Delegation

05/03/2014O00300An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Before I call the next speaker, I am sure Members will wish to join me in welcoming Ms Miet Smet, President of the Association of European Parliamentar- ians with Africa, AWEPA. She is also a former Belgian Minister, Senator and MEP.

On my behalf and on behalf of my colleagues in Seanad Éireann, I extend a warm welcome 223 Seanad Éireann to you as well as our good wishes for a successful visit to Ireland. I acknowledge that you are accompanied by the former Senator Katharine Bulbulia and the former MEP Mary Banotti. You are all welcome to the Distinguished Visitors Gallery.

05/03/2014O00400Reform of Further Education and Training: Statements (Resumed)

05/03/2014O00500An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Let us get back to the business of the day. The next speaker is Senator Martin Conway, who has five minutes.

05/03/2014O00600Senator Martin Conway: Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit go dtí an Teach. This is an important debate because for a long time I have believed that we should re-orientate our education and training system to balance it somewhat. For too long it has been rather weighted on the points race at second level. As a result, important and key skills which can be acquired through effective apprenticeships in myriad areas have not received the type of attention they should have. The Minister of State referred to it as being haphazard or ad hoc but I consider it to be a mishmash and not fit for purpose.

I welcome what is in train at the moment and what is happening with all 16 education and training boards. There is a focused strategy which, I hope, they will develop and implement in the coming months and years. I hope this results in the reorientation to which I have referred. We have suffered greatly in recent years as a result of a significant economic downturn. In some ways, this has provided an opportunity for people to upskill but I do not believe we have exercised that opportunity to its maximum because of the mishmash that has been the entire training and apprenticeship structure in this country.

One legacy the Minister of State could leave when he eventually moves on to another De- partment could be to have a proper, coherent and workable structure of apprenticeships in Ire- land and not only in the general areas where apprenticeships tend to arise. The Minister of State should push the boat out and extend the boundaries to areas which may not necessarily be typical for apprenticeships at the moment.

I saw an interesting television programme on a tailor in Tullow, County Carlow. His son took over the tailoring business. That was a skill in itself. I believe there are many young people who are creative in design and who would be keen take the opportunity to avail of an apprenticeship in tailoring, for example. Apprenticeships could be arranged for any job that requires the use of hands, including all areas of manufacturing and not only the traditional areas associated with construction.

In recent years we have seen the evolution of all sorts of internships. Unfortunately, most are unpaid. We have seen interns coming into this House and into the offices of Deputies and Senators. We have seen some fantastic young people who, as part of a third level masters course, got the opportunity to spend several days a week working in the offices of Members of the Oireachtas. The majority of Members gave them constructive research work to do but others did not, unfortunately. That is one example of internships. The idea has percolated throughout industry at this stage and we also have JobBridge and so on.

As part of an overall educational and training review, we need to consider putting proper

224 5 March 2014 structures in place for interns and the people who employ interns. We have a certain structure with JobBridge but I believe we need to have a conversation on internships. My fear is that some in the private sector are taking advantage of young people who find themselves unemployed after graduating from college. This is something that should be considered.

I have been involved in an organisation called the Association for Higher Education Ac- cess and Disability, AHEAD. I sit on the steering committee for the Willing Able Mentoring, WAM, programme, a paid internship programme for young people with disabilities who have graduated from college. In recent years over 100 such graduates have gone into a paid internship, which has led to getting full-time permanent paid employment within the organisations concerned or, in the case of banking, within the banking industry but not necessarily with the organisations concerned. I wish to pay tribute to some of the leading companies which take part in this, including Dell, Citibank, Abbott and so forth.

As part of any development of training programmes and apprenticeships we should be mindful of equality and ensure that people with disabilities who have the skills, qualifications and ability are given the same opportunities as everyone else to get apprenticeships and internships and the same opportunity to get on to training programmes as well.

05/03/2014O00700Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell: I welcome the Minister of State, for whom I have two questions. The first question relates to Quality and Qualifications Ireland, QQI - I call it “The Bridge on the River Kwai” because it is a way I can remember it. We know what happened to that bridge; it was well built but blew itself up in the end. The question also relates to the education and training boards, the city and guilds and SOLAS. How does the Minister of State intend to challenge and counteract the caste system that has built up between academic education, mar dhea, and vocational education? What is the plan to do that? The Department can have all the systems it wishes within vocational education but how will the Minister of State challenge that? Will he do it in schools, with parents or in shops? How will he do it? It is remarkably important because there is a terrible divide and there is only one way to pass the leaving certificate. At meetings of the Joint Committee on Education and Social Protection I have heard people referring to only seeing one route to education, development, training or employment. It is so narrow. What is the Minster of State’s big plan? What are the plans of QQI, the ETB, SOLAS and the City & Guilds to counteract that caste system? It is a very definite caste system, especially since we have to ask vocational education to help us build a sense of skill and form for employment and training in our country. That is something the Germans have done brilliantly, and that brings me to apprenticeships.

I have written about this and I sent most Senators a piece of work on it, which they might not have had the time to read, but it was centred on apprenticeships. In Germany there are 384 apprenticeships, England has developed around 170 and we have about 25 and they seem to be all in construction. They are not in forestry, inland waterways or the artistic constructional life-giving force workaday world. We are not creative in our plans. It is a little bit of this and a little bit of that, but we should have national and county projects that involve all these great apprenticeships, be they from construction, water, forestry, greenery, life enhancing, or whatever. I read the report on the apprenticeships, but I did not see many apprenticeships coming out of it. It was employer-led, consultative and they would be well functioning apprenticeships. What are they? Where are they? When are they? When will they happen? It is not enough to say they have to be employer-led. We have massive resources in this country, including water, land, agriculture and trees. I cannot begin to describe the amount of facilities we have here. One of the best reports came from Forestry Ireland, which stated that so much of our forestry needed 225 Seanad Éireann young people to work in it. I am not talking about cleaning up, but about world class work in the preservation, maintenance and panelling of our forestry and what we can do with it.

What is the big idea? Why can we not come up with a massive creative idea county by county for these apprenticeships, training, education and employment? When young people go out, with a leaving certificate, or BAs or MAs, or no MAs or no BAs, they want to be engaged and they want work that is psychologically, humanly and physically worthwhile and with which they are engaged and about which they are passionate, not a filler in. We need to look for a few major creative projects. We seem to be tinkering around the edges of all these new QQIs, but what are the really creative things we can do county by county, city by city, area by area? I have gone to these organisations throughout Ireland and they need something a little bit more focused.

How is the Minister of State going to counteract the appalling caste system between vocational education and academic education? I am delighted to see some young people coming into the Visitors Gallery, and I welcome them. It is their future education we are talking about, and the fact that many of them might move into politics and change things. We were only talking about that yesterday. The young people in the Visitors Gallery are the visual aids for the future, and everything we say in here about education and vocational education affects them. It does not always have to be academic. I was an academic all my life, but I never believed in the word. I believed in great teaching and great learning, because that is what it is all about. In the end, a person walks away with some kind of skill, no matter what institution the person is in, and it is skill he or she can bring to this country or abroad. We make these appalling distinctions and we are absolutely dreadful about it. I would like to know the Minister of State’s plan and I would like him to tell me about the apprenticeships, because I am here and ready for the next two years until the election to help him out with it.

05/03/2014P00200Senator Feargal Quinn: I welcome the Minister of State back to this House, having been demoted to the Lower House. The Minister for Education and Skills was in here recently, and I got the feeling there was something less than enthusiasm for the leaving certificate applied. I am a great believer in the leaving certificate applied for further education. I am not sure where we are going with that. The Minister stated that the numbers have dropped, but if we are going to have employment in the future, it will not just come from construction and from the high-tech business. They will certainly be big employers, but retail, hospitality and catering are all important. In the leaving certificate applied, I saw youngsters at the back of the class who were left behind at the age of five or six, and who then discovered that in the leaving certificate applied, they were the best in the class at something. It could have been debating, cooking or anything else. I could see them growing in confidence.

Could we have tax breaks for businesses to provide training? As someone who spent his life in business, I am well aware of the benefits of further and continual training, which means that if we invest in people, we can make them into very successful managers who are loyal and passionate about their job. One of the keys of a successful business is to have people who are passionate about their work, and we must develop that in some form or other. It is well known that with the economic crisis, businesses have cut back on further training for employees. Therefore, I would like the Government to consider a tax break for companies, especially SMEs, which send their employees for further training. That is something we should do something about.

There should be more financial support for private universities in terms of provision for 226 5 March 2014 further education, which may play a part in tackling youth unemployment. We need to realise that people are going to move much more to online education. I am not sure we are doing enough in that area. The whole area of online education is going to be very important in the future. Mr. Clayton Christensen of Harvard Business School is the author of The Innovative University, and he predicts wholesale bankruptcies over the next decade in standard universities if we do not exploit the online market. This is also the thinking of the Brazilian Government, which provides a 10% subsidy to private colleges, with the obvious payback that they have a more educated workforce. I would be interested to hear if we can do something in this area to encourage online education.

Senator O’Donnell spoke clearly about apprenticeships. We need to get young people clos- er to the jobs market and to be instilled with a work ethic from a younger age. Our system encourages people to stay in education for an awfully long time, and Senator O’Donnell touched on that well. Universities benefit financially from people who stay on and do masters degrees or PhDs, but this often is not beneficial to the young people in getting a job. Practical skills are much more desirable to employers in the future. We have to learn from countries that are successful in apprenticeships. We talk a lot about Germany, but in Denmark selected school- children spend two six month stints to work as apprentices in companies with four or five weeks at school in between. The Danish system has been described as follows:

Companies turn teenagers into adults: they get responsibility, trust, use expensive ma- chinery, play a meaningful role and gain self-confidence ... They learn the values of adults. You can teach that at school but you cannot teach it first hand. Some things can only be implicitly understood from experience.

I think we can do an awful lot more about apprenticeships.

In recent years, South Korea created a network of vocational so-called meister schools - meister is the German word for master craftsman - to reduce the country’s shortage of machine workers and plumbers. The Government there pays the students’ room and board as well as their tuition. We have a massive shortage of computer professionals in this country. Should we be considering something similar to address that particular shortage? Much can be done. Rather than trying to invent something new, let us see what is being done elsewhere. There are enough examples around the world of things from which we can learn.

I encourage the Minister of State in what he is doing, and I would like to see a lot more of it and more innovative thinking.

05/03/2014P00300Senator Paul Bradford: I welcome the Minister of State. I am sorry I missed his speech, but I read his script with interest. In particular, I have listened to the previous speakers, Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell and Senator Feargal Quinn.

1 o’clock

If the Minister had commissioned no report but simply took on board what those two Sena- tors have outlined, we would be going in the right direction. The kernel of what both Senators have presented to us is a system to get people into the workforce, engaged and involved. We must recognise that one size does not fit all. Not everybody either desires or has the skillset to obtain 600 points in the leaving certificate and to pursue a conventional degree, postgraduate, masters type education. The strong economies across the European Union - forget about Asia, the US and Canada - such as Germany have a traditional form of education, and traditional 227 Seanad Éireann apprenticeships and schemes to employ people’s skills. There was a time in this country when every town had a number of garages, apprentice mechanics, apprentice electricians and apprentice fabricators but in our wisdom with the advent of the Celtic tiger those careers were almost designed not simply to be surplus but non desirable, so to speak, and we thought that everybody should be a computer engineer or a programmer. Good luck to the people with those skillsets. However, there are tens of thousands of young people whose skills have not been suitably employed and deployed.

What Senators Quinn and O’Donnell have pointed out is not a radical alternative but it goes back to what previously we did very well, namely, taking people whether 14, 15 or 18 years of age and giving them opportunities to use the skills which best suited them. I hope that in going forward - to use that awful phrase - we can look back to what we previously did very well. Previously, we allowed people to have trades and professions. There were qualified builders in the construction industry, qualified mechanics, qualified fabricators, qualified electricians and many more skills right across the country. I hope we can look at those opportunities again.

Senator O’Donnell mentioned Quality and Qualifications Ireland, QQI. I have had a limited amount of engagement with that office recently. There appears to be an over-emphasis on the administrative side and maybe not sufficient emphasis on the practical side. Following a query from a constituent about QQI, I checked its website and structures and wondered where was the practical side rather than the theoretical side. I might engage with the Minister after the debate on QQI.

I am aware the Minister has commissioned all these report which are necessary and I am sure good will flow from them but we need to get back to basics. There are people in the junior cycle who may want alternatives, perhaps non-academic practical skills which have not been provided in the past ten to 15 years. I hope the Minister will consider that issue.

I appreciate the modern economy must be high-tech, high-spec, but it must also have a place for people whose skills and qualifications might be seen as traditional but are still required. I hope the Minister will keep the thousands of young people for whom those skills are appropriate to the forefront of his planning and that there will be openings for apprenticeships in traditional areas.

05/03/2014Q00200Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: I have come here for one reason, namely, to ask the Minister to lift the status of further education in Ireland. As Senators O’Donnell, Bradford and Quinn have said, for too long further education has been seen as the poor relation in the education system. The reason it must not be that is that every child, every student and every learner is valid and young people learn differently. For the six years before I came to this House I earned my living working with learners up and down the country in my own business. While I had been an academic previously - a teacher and then a lecturer - when I decided to go into politics I knew I needed a more flexible approach and set up my own business. I worked with students, parents and teachers around how to help them achieve in education.

I learned that one third of our children know exactly what they want and can find that through the CAO system, another third have an idea but can make poor choices, and the other third do not have a clue. The final third can end up in further education but, by and large, they are learners by doing. This ties in completely with what Senator Quinn said. They are valid learners. They are very exciting. By doing a number of assessments with them I found that they are some of our most creative learners and have the greatest potential if their creativity is 228 5 March 2014 harnessed for entrepreneurship in the future. They can be lost in the education system because it has stopped valuing them. I ask the Minister to lift the status of further education.

I support completely the apprenticeship model, the employer-led learning and agree that incentives need to be found for employers to support them to have work-based learning and offer apprenticeships, be it tax breaks or innovation vouchers. I am aware there are innovation vouchers worth €5,000 each but I do not think there is a huge take-up. If that could be transferred, as a benefit or a gain to these employers, it would be great. At the end of the day what matters is that all our young people feel they are valued in this country and have a place. There is a need for more cost-benefit analysis of our education system.

Let us look at the CAO system and the drop-out levels after first term. A huge amount of money is lost to families and to the State because of poor choices and lack of appropriate career guidance in early second level. There is a dearth of appropriate early guidance. It even needs to start in sixth class. There are others here who would probably support me on that.

In Europe there is the artisan and the craftsperson who are valued in a way that they were probably valued here 20 or 30 years ago but that had fallen out of favour and out of fashion, so to speak, with the drive to a more academic approach. I think I heard Senator O’Donnell say as I came into the House that the vocational education system had been dumbed down, that is because the vocational education system has moved to a more academic approach as points became so valued. I was the chair of County Galway VEC from 2006 to 2008, having come from a voluntary secondary approach and a third level and academic approach, but I learned about the vocational education system being the only provider for all types of learners. We need that approach as a learning level but we also need to show how that can be converted into jobs. This is where I believe the apprenticeship model will come into its own in a way that is not yet realised. When I see young people get a job that is linked with their learning, and even when it is not linked with their learning, they grow, they get self-esteem and find a new purpose. This is one of the best things we can do for Ireland. We are not getting the return we need. We need to lift the status of further education and by using incentives to shine a light on it.

05/03/2014R00200Minister of State at the Department of Education and Skills (Deputy Ciarán Cannon): I thank Members for engaging so passionately on an issue they find exceptionally interesting. The reform of further education and training deserves the focus it is getting, having been con- ferred with a status under the SOLAS legislation.

I thank Senator Power for her kind words on my attendance at the St. Pat’s For All Parade. I congratulate her, Senator Bacik, and Deputies Buttimer and Halligan on the video they put up on YouTube the day before the parade. I congratulate the people involved in the parade on its exceptionally open and inclusive ethos. The main point I made in my speech in New York before the parade began was that the Ireland of 2014 is evolving and changing and becoming a more caring, inclusive and equal society. The parade reflected the real Ireland with which we are familiar in this Chamber. That needed to be extended to other parades, which I am sure will happen over time as we engage with the diaspora worldwide.

All Members stressed the importance of giving the further education and training sector a unique identity, conferring that special status on it. The establishment of SOLAS and the education and training boards, ETBs, finally gives it that. It addresses what Senator Martin Conway described as the mishmash delivery in the past. I was surprised at the level of communication in the sector. If someone developed an excellent course on aquaculture, as might 229 Seanad Éireann be appropriate for its location in County Donegal, the vocational education committees in other seaboard counties would not be made aware of the content of that course and would not be able to access it or deliver it. Significant public funds would have been expended on designing the course in County Donegal but no one else would have known about it. Under the umbrella of SOLAS, ongoing consultation and communication will now take place. This will ensure this will not happen in future.

Senator Power quite correctly raised the issue of relevant on-the-job opportunities for young people while they are engaged in further education and-or training opportunities. She is also correct to point out that employers have a responsibility to engage in that process and to be proactive in their engagement. Accenture published a report last year on the skills deficit and how we should go about addressing the skills deficit in the country. One of the conclusions it drew is that employers, as well as being consumers of talent in the country, need to play a proactive role in creating talent. That was a theme that emerged from much of the discussion today.

Senator Jim D’Arcy raised the issue of workplace training and the need to ensure those in work have as many high quality opportunities as possible to access training while at work. I commend the work of Skillnets. This is a very powerful tool of the State in aiding and abet- ting employers to deliver high quality workplace training opportunities for their own people. What we have seen emerging in the past ten to 15 years is Skillnets clusters, in which industries within the same sector come together, be it in pharma, food science, technology and medical device manufacturing, determining what their skills requirements are within their own cluster and then working hand in glove with Skillnets to deliver the training. Two years ago Skillnets was charged with expanding that provision not alone to people in work but to those who are unemployed. The curricula and workplace opportunities that were developed through the Skill- nets model were equally valuable to those who were unemployed in the region. I am delighted to say this work is ongoing and Skillnets have been especially effective in reaching out to the unemployed as well as the employed.

I was at an event organised by Engineers Ireland, at which the head of Engineers Ireland stressed the need for ongoing workplace training opportunities. As he described it, the half life of an engineering degree is about a year and a half. As the sectors are evolving and moving on, once one is out of college a year and a half, the qualification is essentially out of date. If Ireland is to remain at the cutting edge of all these different technological opportunities, we need to update constantly the skills of those at work as well as those who are out of work.

How do we determine where the skills shortage will occur? The expert study group on future skills needs is still doing exceptionally valuable work, producing very valuable data and reports on the existing skills shortage and what they will be in five years or ten years. They are continually updating that information to ensure every piece of education and training provision in which we engage somehow ties in with their assessment of the skills environment of the future.

The education and training boards also have significant autonomy under the legislation, and rightly so, to carry out their own research at regional level to determine the skills shortages in their regions and how they can best respond to those shortages and encourage people in their area to take up the skills that are relevant to their region. I will give an example. In Galway some 8,000 are employed in medical devices manufacturing and it is rapidly becoming one of the world’s biggest medical devices manufacturing clusters. Two months ago, I opened in the SOLAS training centre a new training facility for that sector in Mervue on the edge of Galway 230 5 March 2014 city. We have recreated at considerable expense, and rightly so, a fully fledged clean room, similar to where one would work in a medical devices manufacturing facilities. From the very first day, trainees will walk in off the street to receive the training in that environment. They will be fully gowned up to work in the clean room. Their experience will be the same as if they were in any one of the medical manufacturing facilities that are in Galway. We hope the training will ensure they have a long and sustainable career in that sector. It is an exceptionally important opportunity for them but it shows how forensic one must be in determining where the skills shortages are in each area and responding to them in a very meaningful way.

Senator Wilson as well as Senator Jim D’Arcy raised the question of how ETBs with no training centres will meet the needs in their areas. I assure both Members that as we speak, a unit in SOLAS is setting out to address that challenge and how we can ensure a child, young person or unemployed adult living in the areas to which they referred have an equal opportunity to high class training provision. I visited a wonderful campus that is being developed in Cavan- Monaghan which I would argue is a role model for other parts of the country. I agree wholeheartedly with Members that we do not want to see any degree of inequality creeping into the provision throughout the country because we are trying to shoehorn a new service into what was the geographical footprint of FÁS. We cannot allow that to happen. We must get it right from day one.

Senator Barrett raised the issue of apprenticeship opportunities in Germany versus Ireland, a matter I also raised in my contribution. In Germany one can take up an apprenticeship opportunity in 300 to 350 areas whereas in Ireland there are 25 to 26. We need to look at what Germany and Austria are doing. Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell also raised the big question, and it is a significant one, of how we encourage people to become an apprentice. I argue this is a problem for parents, and we must figure out a way to reach out to them and convince them of the absolute merit of their children engaging in the apprenticeship process. We need role models who have been through the apprenticeship process and have gone on to long, happy, fulfilling and rewarding careers. I visited Dublin Aerospace recently, which is a wonderful organisation employing 250 people. Every single employee has a shareholding in the company and everyone is working towards a common goal. The CEO of Dublin Aerospace was an apprentice, starting out as an aircraft mechanic, and has risen to the top of the industry. He is highly respected not only in Ireland but worldwide for the knowledge and experience he has accumulated.

If one were to set out to have a person lead an organisation, I would argue that someone who has come up through all the different ranks of the company is exceptionally valuable at its helm because he or she is acutely aware of every single part of the process of delivery and makes him or her more than suitable for the role of chief executive. I am sure if one were to look deeper one would find many men and women throughout the country and worldwide who have taken a similar path. Senator Barrett referred to the role of Neven Maguire as a participant in leadership training. We must find some way of ensuring people who have assumed leadership roles in their own sectors are part of the provision. I know that the Senator has raised the issue with the Teaching Council. Unless one is a member of the Teaching Council and stands over the quality of one’s professionalism and delivery, one cannot technically be part of the delivery process of further education and training. We are looking at the matter but the question is how to incorporate industry expertise in provision yet stand over the quality of the delivery on a day-to-day basis.

Senator Barrett mentioned that we should use technology and perhaps we could. Neven Maguire does not need to leave Blacklion to be in every classroom in this country. He, and oth- 231 Seanad Éireann ers like him, could dovetail into delivery at a local level and there is an opportunity for doing so.

I shall move on to Senator O’Donnell’s contribution. I agree wholeheartedly with her that we must reach out to parents and convince them of the merits of the scheme. Quality and Quali- fications Ireland can play a critical role as it oversees the national framework of qualifications. People need to see that there is a clear uncomplicated progression route that goes all of the way. There should be a clear progression route for someone who wants to progress all the way from a junior certificate to a PhD and it should be obvious, uncomplicated and straightforward. As the Senator pointed out, we must challenge the divide that exists. Why does it not exist in Ger- many and Austria? It is because both countries have provided a suitable path for centuries - not decades - particularly in Germany. My Department and I will work on the matter. The initiative will be part of the SOLAS vision for the future and the further education and training strategy. How do we convince people about the merits of this engagement? We constantly stress, as I do when I travel abroad to market Ireland as a destination for international education, that we have the highest level of third level participation in the whole of the EU. We have strived to reach that goal and parents have demanded it but we are faced with the challenge of convincing parents that there is another route available as well as third level.

05/03/2014S00200Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: Unemployment will convince them.

05/03/2014S00300Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell: Unemployment of their educated children and a aero- plane trip to Australia will convince them.

05/03/2014S00400Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: Drop-out levels will also convince them.

05/03/2014S00500Deputy Ciarán Cannon: Yes, that is a factor.

05/03/2014S00600Senator Diarmuid Wilson: There is no need for the Minister of State to be here at all.

05/03/2014S00700Acting Chairman (Senator Pat O’Neill): Please allow the Minister of State to continue.

05/03/2014S00800Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell: I am sorry to have interrupted him.

05/03/2014S00900Deputy Ciarán Cannon: The Senator said that there needs to be a county-by-county focus on delivery at local level. That is exactly what the legislation underpinning the education and training boards has set out to do. It gives them the autonomy to be that granular in their own county, to determine what the skills shortages are in the particular region and to respond to them in an effective manner.

Senator Quinn sought tax breaks for businesses who provide training. Every year between €15 million and €20 million of my Department’s resources is invested in Skillnets. We have yet to fully realise the value of the Skillnets model across all of industry here. Some businesses really get it, understand it, are passionate about it and actively engage with Skillnets. However, we must again reach out to industry. Perhaps we could ask other sectors that do not engage in the Skillnets model to get involved and show them the merits of the scheme. Such an initiative would expand industry participation in training and further education in the future.

Private universities were mentioned. Earlier I mentioned that I travel abroad to market Ire- land as a destination for international education. Enterprise Ireland now has an exceptionally successful unit called Education in Ireland which has engineered, along with officials in my Department, a 35% increase in international participation in our education system over the past two years. Colleges like the Dublin Business School and Griffith College are very much part 232 5 March 2014 of the family of institutions that travel with us abroad on trade missions to attract more students to various places. There is a significant and ongoing participation by private universities and support is provided.

The Senator mentioned the issue of online and digital learning and massive open online courses, MOOCs, and I agree wholeheartedly with him. It is interesting to note that one of the world’s largest MOOCs is based in Galway and is available at alison.com. It is the largest provider of education in the African continent, has 2 million users online and gains about 100,000 extra users per month. Without question, all of our second and third level institutions involved in education need to acknowledge the powerful role that technology can play in delivering education in the future. Ireland needs to lead the revolution that is taking place in technology and education rather than traipse along on its coat tails. Ireland has all of the necessary ingredients to be a world leader in digital learning innovation.

Senator Moran wants the apprenticeship system expanded to other sectors and she is right. She mentioned the fact that we have a strong tradition here and we do in certain crafts such as mechanics, plastering and electricians. Apprentices have won major awards. Every year the young apprentices who travel abroad to compete in world craft competitions always come home with a plethora of medals. We must use and build on the expertise and wisdom that we have accrued over the decades in those few sectors and expand it to other models.

Fast Track to IT is funded by SOLAS and does wonderful work. Last year and the previous year it engaged with every single multinational and indigenous company involved in the ICT sector and asked them to produce a map of the skills shortages that occur. Fast Track to IT has responded to the information by designing courses in conjunction with those industries in order for young people to access and occupy current vacancies. As Senator Bradford pointed out, the scheme does not refer to computer science graduates or software engineers but operates below that level to technicians, sales people and back-office support. Such occupations are just as important to the sector and to its success in the future as software engineers.

Senator Moran also mentioned data collection. I was very strong about that issue with the SOLAS implementation group. We do not collect enough data from learners and trainees. We need to ensure that every single participant benefits so we must immediately determine from them how successful the intervention has been. On a personal level, we must discover whether he or she found the intervention rewarding, inspirational or invigorating. On a qualification level, we must discover whether the qualification a person has attained will empower him or her to go on to a higher level of education or go right back into the workforce. We do not collect that data in a meaningful manner but the technology exists for doing so. The data could act as an incredible and powerful tool to design and strategise provision for the future. SOLAS will have a major role to play in collecting that data and will use it in the most effective way possible.

I acknowledge the issue raised by Senator Wilson about training in Cavan and Monaghan.

05/03/2014S01000Senator Diarmuid Wilson: I thank the Minister of State.

05/03/2014S01100Deputy Ciarán Cannon: I agree with Senator Bradford that one size does not fit all and flexibility is key. He is correct that the strong tradition of apprenticeship delivery, which dates back over decades, must be expanded to other areas.

Senators Healy Eames and O’Donnell raised the same issue, namely, how to improve the status of further education and training and the apprenticeship model among learners and par- 233 Seanad Éireann ents. How do we raise their awareness of the unique value of such schemes and the ability to lead people to very long and rewarding careers? SOLAS is now in existence and has brought together the two disparate entities of further education and training. SOLAS has done a huge amount of work in conferring that status upon it. Obviously SOLAS will be tested - as it should be - by its future success in encouraging many others to become involved in the particular area of provision that it is responsible for.

A Senator mentioned learning by doing and I agree with the philosophy. One can ask anybody in business what is the one skill that all people will need in the future and he or she will answer without thinking that it is creativity. Some people do not need to try hard because they are innately creative. We must nurture, foster and raise creative people up as key participants in the Ireland of the future which did not happen in the past.

I hope that I have not left anybody out. I have tried to cover, as best I can, most of the points raised by Senators.

There is no question but that this will become a crucial part of our educational delivery in future. The advent of SOLAS and the educational training boards, ETBs, provides the machin- ery whereby we will deliver it. From my own engagement with those involved in SOLAS, including the board of SOLAS, the CEOs of our ETBs, as well as the teachers and tutors, I know they acknowledge that this is a particularly powerful mechanism for delivering high quality outcomes. Everybody knows that it is a particularly powerful mechanism for setting people on the road to long, rewarding and fulfilling careers and lives.

We finally have that kind of unity of purpose now that we did not have before SOLAS was created. We are all working towards the best possible outcomes for every single person we set out to support, which is how it should be.

05/03/2014T00200Acting Chairman (Senator Pat O’Neill): I ask the Acting Leader, Senator Jim D’Arcy, to propose the suspension of the House until 3 p.m.

05/03/2014T00300Senator Jim D’Arcy: Just before doing so, I want to thank the Minister of State for his remarks. He is well on top of his brief and I give him ten marks out of ten. We will be looking to see if the changes happen, however.

Sitting suspended at 1.31 p.m. and resumed at 3 p.m.

05/03/2014U00100Action Plan for Jobs: Statements

05/03/2014U00200An Leas-Chathaoirleach: I welcome the Minister, Deputy Richard Bruton. The contributions of spokespersons will be eight minutes and all other Senators five minutes. As it is Seachtain na Gaeilge, Minister, ar aghaidh leat.

05/03/2014U00300Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation (Deputy Richard Bruton): I do not think I will speak in Irish for the duration, I am afraid. I would have to have had advance notice.

05/03/2014U00400An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Níl an Ghaeilge chomh flúirseach agam ach oiread. Tá beagáinín agam.

234 5 March 2014

05/03/2014U00500Deputy Richard Bruton: On a point of order, do I get a chance to respond to the matters raised?

05/03/2014U00600An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Yes.

05/03/2014U00700Deputy Richard Bruton: As the House knows, this is the third year of the Action Plan for Jobs. The thinking behind it was that employment was a crisis of such dimensions that it needed all of Government to respond. It was not a question of one Department or one set of agencies as it was really a challenge for the entire Government. The thinking behind it was also to get every single Department to look at what could be done to improve the environment for enterprise and job creation, and every Department and 46 agencies have contributed proposals to be delivered.

The other unique feature is that each of these actions that are committed to by Departments are benchmarked to be delivered in a particular quarter, and they are overseen from the Taoise- ach’s office, so there is a momentum to deliver on time to the targets committed. By and large, we have delivered more than 90% of the targets on time.

The third feature that is of interest to Members is that we have openly embraced industry as partners in the process. We have brought in six industrial partners which are now helping to implement particular areas of the plan. In addition, we have had a sort of rolling programme of discussion with enterprise as to what needs to be done each year, so that, every year, we seek to refresh the agenda based on the feedback we are getting from players in the workplace.

In the eight minutes available to me, I want to signal a lot of what is in it-----

05/03/2014U00800An Leas-Chathaoirleach: The Minister is not confined to eight minutes, like the other speakers. If the Minister goes over 30 minutes, I will call him.

05/03/2014U00900Deputy Richard Bruton: Very good. I will just give a rough rundown on what the action plan is. There are core elements that will remain constant from year to year. These are built around issues like competitiveness, which includes skills, research and development, cost structures, red tape and those sorts of areas. There is also the issue of Pathways to Work, which has been developed by the Ministers, Deputy Joan Burton and Deputy Ruairí Quinn, but is still key to the Action Plan for Jobs. It concerns how we make sure there is a fair shareout of job opportunities among those who do not have work.

Another standard piece each year has been access to finance, which has been a recurring difficulty for enterprise in recent years. We then have dedicated sections on Irish-owned companies which are exporting and on our attraction of foreign direct investment into the country, and these are also standard pieces. We also look at areas like procurement, which is an opportunity that many people recognise as one that needs to be developed. We then have sectoral pieces, which have been a feature each year, in particular in the areas of tourism, food, retail, the green economy and ICT. These are areas where we clearly believe we have a competitive advantage and we can build sustainable sectors for the future.

Another feature that was introduced last year is what we would call disruptive reforms. These are, if one likes, areas where we can take initiatives that we believe will have an impact across a wide range of sectors and are not defined by particular sectors. One example is ICT skills. It is very clear that ICT skills are driving change, not just in the sector that is described as ICT but in virtually every sector of the economy, where using the power of information 235 Seanad Éireann technology to gather and analyse information and applying that is redefining the sort of business models that succeed. Therefore, we have committed to become the best provider of skills in Europe by increasing the proportion of ICT skills that are delivered from the Irish education system. Two years ago, this was at just 45%, and we want to bring that to 75% by 2018, so there is very significant expansion in this area. We have identified similar key areas that apply across sectors, such as trading online, driving energy efficiency and the introduction of a health innovation hub. The idea is to involve not only our good industry and our good research centres but our health system, so it can become a test bed for technologies that are emerging and, from there, become opportunities for us to build an export market on the back of test-bedded experience in the Irish medical system.

The areas we have highlighted this year as areas where we are focusing particular initiatives are threefold. One is entrepreneurship, the second is what we call winning abroad and the third is manufacturing. In the case of entrepreneurship, as the House probably knows, Mr. Sean O’Sullivan conducted an entrepreneurship forum for us during the course of last year and his work was presented to me earlier this year. We are now going to develop our first policy statement. As part of that, this year we are going to roll out the 31 local enterprise offices, which are a new approach to supporting local enterprise. What is new is that we have a centre of excellence in Enterprise Ireland so its work will be co-ordinated across the 31 bodies involved. Enterprise Ireland will be developing best practice in terms of mentoring standards and new initiatives that can drive entrepreneurship and bring new thinking into the system. The provision of micro-finance funding is an example of an initiative we have driven in this area.

The third new element is that we are consciously embracing local authorities as an agent for enterprise development within their own areas. The resources we had in the county enterprise boards and an additional 50 staff from the business service units of the local authorities will be merged into one entity. In addition, we are recruiting graduates to assist in enterprise promotion. This will be a first-stop shop for micro-business and entrepreneurship, with a seamless connection back into Enterprise Ireland. It is about bringing small business and entrepreneurship development into the centre of public policy making. We have great ambition for this initiative.

In addition, this year we will establish a youth entrepreneurship fund. This idea came from members across the committees, the view being that there is a number of under-represented cohorts in entrepreneurship, including women, young people and non-Irish people. We are confident we can do better in all three of these areas. The approach of using a competition is helpful in this regard. We have employed it very successfully in the past two years in respect of business start-ups by women. The scheme was multiple times oversubscribed, in response to which we trebled the allocation. This is an area where we can do a great deal of work and it will be a strong theme this year.

The second issue I wish to highlight is winning business abroad. We have put additional feet on the ground in key markets, including 20 additional people for Enterprise Ireland’s overseas team and 35 new staff for IDA Ireland. The idea is to build in emerging and new markets where we see an opportunity for either inward investment or new sales. We have enjoyed considerable success in this regard, with both IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland having record years in the past 12 months and creating nearly 12,000 net additional jobs between them. This represented a very significant advance on previous years. It is an area that is working and it warrants additional resources and additional targets to bolster it.

236 5 March 2014 The third area to single out is manufacturing. It is a sector that has been neglected, but the changes that are happening mean it presents an opportunity Ireland should seek to seize. We have become more competitive in this area and trends in manufacturing suggest that areas where we have a competitive advantage will play strongly. For example, the merging of traditional products with ICT - smart products, smart medical devices, connected health and so on - is an area where Ireland ought to be carving out a competitive edge. The past 12 months have been encouraging in respect of manufacturing and we need to build on that. This year, we will identify 200 businesses out of our existing base of manufacturing companies which we believe can sustain a step up. To support that, one of the initiatives we have taken is the launch, earlier this week, of a development capital fund. Enterprise Ireland has put up €25 million for that fund, which is leveraged up with private sector investment. For the first €50 million given, we have €225 million when it is leveraged up. This represents a very significant fund to back traditional businesses that have the capacity to go global. There is a real opportunity in manufacturing and we need to tap into it.

Another issue of interest is the question of how well the action plan is performing, which has been the focus of a great deal of comment. This Government set itself two targets in this area. One was to become the best small country in which to do business and the other was to create a net 100,000 jobs by 2016. In the past 12 months, as we know from the statistics published last week, net job creation was 61,000 and we had a fifth consecutive quarter of net job creation. If we take it since the turning point on employment - obviously, there was some decline before that - net employment has grown by 72,000. We are past the half-way mark in respect of our target and I am confident we will reach it. In terms of our efforts to support and facilitate entrepreneurship, Forbes has indicated its view that we are indeed the best place in the world to do business. In terms of the world competitiveness rankings, we have gone from 24th to 17th, while the rankings for the best place to start a business put us tenth or thereabouts. We are showing signs of improvement, in other words, but there is more to be done.

One of the initiatives we are introducing this year, which follows from our discussions with the OECD, is to look at additional impact indicators which could help to bring more focus into some of the areas in which we are working. We will, for example, look at whether we can develop a suite of impact indicators around entrepreneurship so that we can see not only whether we are rolling out programmes that are of interest and have a good take-up but also whether we are seeing their impact in key areas. We will be considering headline indicators that could improve the focus of our action plan and the feedback mechanisms we use.

Each year we seek to make the action plan a more forensic and effective document. This year we will see a very significant focus on skill as an area we need to develop. The Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, recently published the review of apprenticeship. Next month SOLAS will publish its strategy for the successor to FÁS. At a time when employment growth is starting to recover, we will be looking at existing training models to see whether they can contribute more. Many people in Europe are looking to Germany as a country which weathered the recession particularly well. Its apprenticeship and traineeship models are very much routed in its culture and have certainly helped to make the country competitive globally, particularly in terms of its mittelstand companies, which are family-owned, engineering-type businesses. There are lessons for Ireland in that. The review of apprenticeships and SOLAS’s strategic plan will be watched with considerable interest because they will throw up opportunities for some of our sectors to strengthen their own training pipeline. We have seen that one of the consequences of the recession was a decline in the commitment to training in some sectors,

237 Seanad Éireann which is something we need to rectify.

I hope I have given Members a flavour of what we are about and I now look forward to their contributions. I prefer to hear Members’ views rather than repeating what they can read in the document.

05/03/2014V00150Senator Chathaoirleach: The Minister will have ten minutes to respond at the end of the debate. I now call the first speaker. In the spirit of Seachtain na Gaeilge, tá ocht nóiméid ag Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill.

05/03/2014V00200Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill: Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire, atá anseo chun díospóireacht a dhéanamh linn ar an ábhar tábhachtach seo. Tá cúrsaí fostaíochta i ngeilleagar na tíre seo fíorthábhachtach dúinn go léir.

The area of job creation and employment is critical to Ireland’s recovery. I welcome the Minister to the House for this discussion on the Action Plan for Jobs and the opportunity to review where we are in this regard. An economy can only benefit all of its people if there are people in employment to contribute to the State’s coffers and thereby sustain the society. This country has gone through an exceptionally difficult time, with many people losing their jobs. Many families, whether two-job families or one-job families, were affected. Large numbers were left on the live register as a result of economic collapse, particularly in the construction sector and all that went with that. I acknowledge the work the Government and Minister have done to try to reverse some of these difficulties. Every effort to create additional jobs must be supported by the Government and Opposition. None the less, words are generally of little comfort to those who find themselves in financial distress as a result of having lost a job. While I acknowledge that almost 30,000 people left the live register in the past year, I understand 86,000 people were encouraged to join activation schemes.

05/03/2014W00200Deputy Richard Bruton: That is the total figure, which is not new and amounts to approximately 2,000 more than in the previous year. The increase in employment is not explained by the number of people moving to schemes.

05/03/2014W00300Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill: I acknowledge that. The live register figures also show that people are leaving the country. In 2012 and 2013, for example, approximately 200 people left the country every day. On a national radio programme at breakfast time this morning, a person in Canada spoke of the number of Irish people who are setting down roots in Calgary and elsewhere in Canada where new GAA clubs are being established. While GAA clubs are flourishing in other parts of the world, I regret that in my part of the world we are finding it extremely difficult to keep clubs going because young people are leaving as a result of the absence of employment. The figures on employment do not necessarily translate into people gaining employment, which raises other questions.

Time is short but I would like to briefly raise a number of issues. Youth unemployment is the most serious problem facing the country. In the past five years, more than 250,000 aged between 15 and 29 years or one in five persons in this age cohort have left the country. Emigra- tion is ripping the soul out of Ireland and destroying future recovery. Something must be done to tackle youth unemployment. While I acknowledge the work being done by the Government in other areas, it is not tackling this issue. There has been a strong focus on IDA supported companies, foreign direct investment and the multinational sector but regional development has been ignored by the IDA, Enterprise Ireland and the Department.

238 5 March 2014 Employment is not being created in the regions. The Minister’s replies to parliamentary questions show that most new jobs have been created in major urban hubs, which also benefit from most site visits. The north west and other rural areas are in decline and have been left with little hope for the future. Young people who cannot secure a job locally, for example, in teaching, are being forced to move abroad. This is a sad development, which tears at the heart of communities. Every family in my local area of north-west Donegal has experienced migration, whether to Dublin, Toronto or Sydney. People in the regions lack opportunities.

I plead with the Minister to discuss this issue with the IDA and Enterprise Ireland. The lack of infrastructure in the regions is not an excuse. It is disgraceful that the Government has allowed €13.5 million in European Union funding for rural broadband services to be returned. When I question the IDA or Enterprise Ireland about employment, officials inform me that broadband facilities are not available in certain rural areas. I am aware that responsibility for the failure to drawn down the EU funds for rural broadband services rests with the Departments of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources and Agriculture, Food and the Marine. A grave injustice was done to rural communities when this funding was lost.

Other areas which I could discuss include the need to upskill the workforce, the role of the information and communications technology sector and the need to adapt educational programmes for the future. I ask the Minister to outline what work is being done in this regard by his Department and the Department of Education and Skills. The Minister for Education and Skills discussed this issue in the House recently and I am aware that plans are in place in this regard. We need to know what will be the position in five, ten or 15 years because the children currently at school need to be informed about what career opportunities may become available to them. Links are needed between the education system and industry.

A recent OECD report highlighted the difficulties small and medium-sized enterprises are experiencing in securing funding. Financial institutions are not lending and choosing instead to roll over pre-approved loans and reclassifying this money as new approvals. I understand that 66% of funding that had been pre-approved for companies has been rolled over. State agencies and services, including the Leader programmes, Údarás na Gaeltachta and the county enterprise boards, are providing grant aid to small and medium-sized enterprises. Time and again, I have encountered circumstances where people who have secured funding from these sources to start a small business have been refused co-funding by the banks. Notwithstanding that the Credit Review Office is doing its best, the banks must be taken to task by the Minister because they are not lending. If they are not prepared to lend, the State must provide loan facilities to enterprises, provided they can demonstrate an ability to repay the loans. Interest free loans or some other type of loan must be provided to enterprises. I understand that approximately 50% of the new jobs in the past year were created by people who are self-employed. The Government must help people to help themselves, for example, in cases where they cannot secure a bank loan of €5,000 or €10,000.

05/03/2014W00400Senator Cáit Keane: Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire. Aontaím leis an Leas-Chathaoirleach gur cheart dúinn cúpla focal Gaeilge a úsáid, agus cúrsaí jabanna á bplé againn, mar gheall go bhfuil Seachtain na Gaeilge ar siúl faoi láthair. Ba chóir dúinn gach dícheall a dhéanamh jabanna a chur ar fáil sa Ghaeltacht ionas go bhfanfaidh daoine sna ceantracha sin. Tá a fhios againn go bhfuil an tAire, an Teachta Rabbitte, ag obair go dian. Tá plean leagtha amach aige chun an Idirlíon agus an broadband a chur isteach i ngach tigh. Is ábhar é sin do lá eile. B’fhéidir go gcuirfidh mé é ar an gclár am éigin eile.

239 Seanad Éireann I welcome the Minister. I am pleased to speak on the Action Plan for Jobs because for the past year or two the Minister has had positive news on jobs. Having been in a sad place, we have now moved on. Just last week, the Government launched the Action Plan for Jobs 2014, which lists more than 380 specific actions to help create new jobs. This is the third annual in- stalment in the Government’s plan to build a sustainable and growing economy and fulfil the mandate on which it was elected. The process has been difficult and I compliment the Minister on the work he has done in this regard. While he recognises that he has much more to do, he is on the right road, as the Government has demonstrated.

As the Minister noted, under the next phase of the Action Plan for Jobs, the Government has set a target of creating 90,000 new jobs, including 40,000 manufacturing jobs, 10,000 jobs related to foreign direct investment and 30,000 indigenous export focused jobs. The plan aims to build on the significant progress made in creating jobs since the first action plan was launched in February 2012, with 60,000 new jobs added in the year to September 2013. According to live register figures - the Senator opposite focused on such figures - the rate of unemployment has decreased over 20 consecutive months from 15.1% in February 2012 to 12% last month. Those figures were not produced by me, the Minister or the Government, they come from an independent source, namely, the CSO. The economist, Mr. Conall Mac Coille, from Davy Re- search has predicted, in the context of the decrease in unemployment from its peak in February 2012, that if the pace of improvement is maintained, the rate will fall below 10% by the end of 2015. In light of what the Minister has done to date, we are well on the road towards achieving that rate. I compliment the Minister on the work he has done in this regard. This morning it was announced that the numbers on the live registered declined by a further 2,500 last month. The average reduction per month has been 3,000. This means the numbers of those on the live register have fallen below 400,000 for the first time since May 2009. The figures speak for themselves.

A great deal needs to be done in the area of construction. The Government accepts that 100,000 of those who are unemployed worked in the construction industry and that approximately two thirds of those on dole queues are long-term unemployed. We also must work on the fact that we have one of the highest percentages of households, 20%, in which there is no person in employment. That is a serious problem and the Government’s aim is to ensure assistance will be provided to every household. Extensive measures have been put in place to counter the deficit in employment in the construction Industry. The outlook and strategic plan on the construction industry was commissioned and implemented last year by the Minister, Deputy Bruton, as part of the previous Action Plans for Jobs. It sets out an optimum scenario of sustainable output from the construction industry. There is a need for sustainable development in order that we might avoid the type of unplanned and unmonitored bubbles which proved to be our downfall, both in the construction industry and economically. There can be no return to a situation where the rate of construction was hugely inflated and reached 25% of GNP. We have gone from one extreme to the other and we must get back on track in the context of construction. We must ensure, therefore, that construction returns to a viable and sustainable level. I refer, in that regard, to the figure of 12% set out in the plan.

Measures such as the home renovation incentive were put in place to boost employment in the construction industry. Those measures are working and have resulted in three consecutive quarters of annual growth in construction employment. We recognise, however, that this level of activity within the industry must be increased. The Minister has outlined on many occasions the steps he is taking in this regard. I agree with the previous speaker in that the banks must

240 5 March 2014 also play their part. The Government is not crowing about its achievements. It cannot afford to do so because we are not yet out of the woods. Everyone in government recognises that. The Minister is not allowing momentum to slacken and we must continue to drive forward and create more jobs. I hope I am correct in stating that if we replicate in the next two years what we have done in the past two, we will be well on our way.

In the new Action Plan for Jobs there is emphasis on three broad issues, namely, the importance of entrepreneurship; the previous success of agencies such as IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland in increasing the numbers in employment by 20,000 and in harnessing the potential of manufacturing; and competitiveness. Ireland’s competitiveness has improved steadily. The Minister quoted figures from the International Institute for Management Development, IMD, which indicate that Ireland has risen from 24th to 17th in the context of its competitiveness ranking. We must continue to move forward in this regard. The new action plan will involve a new system of quarterly reporting to the Cabinet committee on competitiveness, which is welcome, measures on skills, including 6,000 places on MOMENTUM - perhaps the Minister might comment on these when replying - and reduced costs for businesses through the roll-out of the reformed workplace relations structures. All these initiatives will be of assistance in fa- cilitating the creation of employment. Everyone is aware of the impact the reduction of VAT to 9% in respect of the tourism sector had in the context of boosting the number of tourists coming here and also the level of employment in the sector. This reduction was a factor in the creation of in excess of 22,000 jobs.

SMEs are extremely important to this country’s economy, particularly as over 90% of those in employment work for such companies. I have three children and they are all self-employed in their own SMEs. Under the action plan, there will now be new non-bank sources of lending for SMEs. This will be in addition to the €2 billion that is already available. Perhaps the Minister will comment on the announcement he made last week in respect of €70 million being provided to the development capital scheme, which is designed to support Irish companies targeting job creation and the export market.

The Minister referred to women in the technology sector. I agree with him that not enough women work in this sector. Women are well capable of doing so and there is a need to promote their involvement. The Minister has targeted this area in the past and there was a good level of uptake in respect of the initiatives he put in place. Two of my daughters work in an institute of technology, so I was very interested in hearing what the Minister had to say in respect of this matter. Parents and teachers’ promotion of traditional career paths for girls is a decisive factor in influencing their university and career choices. We must ensure women are influenced in making the choice in this regard. We must tackle stereotypes and sexist promotions early on to promote equal representation and opportunity in this booming industry, in other industries and also in politics.

It is clear the action plan process is working. Where previously we were shedding 1,600 jobs per week, we are now adding 1,200 every week. A study published by the intelligence unit of The Economist indicates that, in the context of investment funds, Ireland is now the European domicile of choice among global asset managers. according to the new research. Some 71% of global asset managers who participated in this comprehensive study said they would choose Ireland as one of their top three European fund domiciles. The value of Irish domiciled funds is estimated at €1.3 trillion and the funds industry accounts for more than 12,000 jobs in Ire- land. We beat countries such as Luxembourg and Germany to reach top spot. I congratulate the Minister on his drive and leadership in respect of this matter. The funds to which I refer were 241 Seanad Éireann not attracted here by accident. The process in this regard was driven by the Minister. Ireland is now the leader in Europe in this area. It is of the utmost importance that we should continue to invest in these diverse industries to which I have referred to sustain our reputation and the growth in employment.

05/03/2014X00200Senator Mary Ann O’Brien: I welcome the Minister and join others in congratulating him on the immense progress that has been made. As he observed, however, there is still an awfully long way to go and a brick-by-brick approach will be necessary.

The Minister for Finance came before the House last evening and I asked him about capital gains tax, CGT. I am an entrepreneur and I often speak to young entrepreneurs. When they ask me for advice, I always inform them that once they start a business, they must know when they will exit it. As we all know, the exit here is CGT at a rate of 33%. I informed the Minister for Finance that I have no problem with this rate of CGT but surely there should be a different rate for someone who is working for the country, who has a great idea, who is going to start a business and who is going to create employment and increase the Government’s income tax take as a result.

There is an increasing level of concern among Members of the Oireachtas with regard to rural Ireland. Such concern appears to be growing weekly. This has led me to ponder the position with regard to the tax rates which apply in rural areas. Enterprise Ireland has always provided additional grant aid to companies which locate their operations outside urban areas. I ask the Minister, Deputy Bruton, to give even greater consideration to how foreign direct investment might be further incentivised in order that companies might be encouraged to locate their operations outside these areas.

I warmly welcome the news from the IMD that Ireland is ranked 17th in the world in terms of its competitiveness. As an exporter of 80% of produce, we find it continuously difficult to be competitive, in my case, with European competitors. The Irish Sea is between us and Europe but competitors are on the mainland. We have no problem being competitive in North America with fellow Europeans but I cannot stress how every single brick of assistance that can be given to make us competitive is welcomed and can be used to gain traction and sales.

We need help in Ireland to increase our skills base with the web but I am only barely able to articulate this because I only know a little bit about it. Nevertheless, we believe in it. I will visit a similar company to mine in London next week but it started three years ago, whereas I started 20 years ago. It only sells on the web and in England. It is turning over £50 million after three years just on the web. I have recently received investment from the Carlyle group, which owns the company in question, and that is why I am lucky enough to be introduced to it. I have learned much already. The Minister should think about Irish companies selling on the web, as I am concerned about our lack of knowledge. If my company has some Google AdWords, for example, it costs €1.50 per €40 sale in Ireland. It would cost €20 for the AdWords in England as an Irish company trying to make the same sale. Our information technology people must be upskilled quickly so we can get on this platform. Whether we like it or not, on-line selling and buying is here to stay. There is also the tax intake to account for. If I am buying a dress, for example, I may be able to find it cheaper in England or France, which would affect tax. Irish companies must be upskilled so that we can get on the stage in Europe and grab the web shop- per. That is the way it is going in business.

I was delighted to hear of the €5 million built heritage job scheme and I ask the Govern- 242 5 March 2014 ment to add a zero to the €5 million. I had an Australian visitor from Woolworths supermarket, which has done substantial business with us in the past year and I hope will do much more. She flew here on Monday and we had meetings Monday evening and yesterday, when we finished at lunchtime. She and a colleague asked what heritage sites could be visited in Kildare. That is not tourism but rather a business visit. We all know the incredible strength in having the heritage that England has, and it also has the National Trust. The Minister knows he can also create wonderful jobs in this respect. Perhaps he can join the dots with the Minister responsible for arts and heritage, as this is a “no-brainer”. If we build up our heritage and restore it forever for future generations we can create jobs and skills now, and further jobs will attach to those heritage sites.

05/03/2014Y00200Senator Lorraine Higgins: I welcome the Minister to the House to hear our views on the Action Plan for Jobs recently announced. I commend the Minister and the Government for all the hard work done in creating jobs in very difficult times. There is no doubt that we have come back from a very difficult place, bringing the country back from the brink and into a zone where we can see stability and recovery.

Before beginning I will outline where we came from and where we are now. In March 2011, we had 14.7% of the population on the live register, with 7,000 jobs being lost every month. Our economic growth was 2.5% in deficit and our consumer confidence was low as a consequence our international reputation taking a battering. All of this brought much damage to the Irish economy and to families and communities throughout the country. Thanks to the policies pursued by the Government, the ship is now being turned and all the indicators are very positive. There were 61,000 jobs created last year and it is fair to say we are moving in the right direction. The live register numbers have fallen for the 19th month in a row, with the standardised unemployment rate down to 12.1%. Economic growth has reached 1.7%, which is up from a deficit three years ago. Consumer confidence has also increased steadily, as have overseas visits to Ireland, the rate of which is almost four times what it was in 2011. We can see the enormous strides that have been made in such a short time in Government. There is no doubt that the Government and Ministers deserve praise for that.

The Action Plan for Jobs announced by the Government is full of well thought out measures which will do even more to create jobs. The rolling out of 31 local enterprise offices and additional funding to support start-ups and expansions, including a new youth entrepreneurship fund, will help drive entrepreneurial activity throughout the country in urban and rural heart- lands alike. The development of a clear strategy with medium term actions for entrepreneurship through a national entrepreneurship policy statement is key to creating the conditions for job creation. I particularly welcome the framework put in place to provide necessary supports for new entrepreneurs opening businesses. The framework includes tax-based support schemes, mentoring, peer learning and knowledge sharing to develop entrepreneurial capacity. There is no doubt these funds have been allocated to inspire and encourage untapped potential among groups, including youth and graduate entrepreneurs, female entrepreneurs - as mentioned in the opening statement - immigrant entrepreneurs and those on a regional level. This will help groups that traditionally struggle to open a business, so I commend the Minister for demonstrat- ing such foresight.

I welcome the announcement of a regionally based public competition to find the best entrepreneur in Ireland, with a €2 million total prize fund along with the entrepreneurial phD programme to train Science Foundation Ireland statements to launch businesses. As I embark on a European election campaign, I look forward to getting out there and meeting entrepreneurs 243 Seanad Éireann in the weeks and months ahead to discuss any needs, potential gaps in Government assistance or policy and see how policies are working on the ground towards success. There is no reason Ireland cannot be up there among the most entrepreneurial nations in the world and be acknowledged as a world-class environment in which to start and grow business. The measures announced in the Action Plan for Jobs represents a significant step in the right direction.

There are two caveats that would add greatly to our job creation ideas from the past number of years. We must have proper banking competition in the country and if the Government is not mindful of setting up a new bank, the only way we can achieve real results is to encourage new institutions to set up. We have the same old banks with their legacies, and the crux is that all the banks are retail banks. There is no properly focused business bank but it is high time for one to enter the market. We need to ensure the banks are financing cash flow businesses and that officials get proper training on the consideration of business plans so that viable examples are approved for finance. We need to move away from the bricks and mortar security sought in the past. We are currently letting go the opportunity to finance some Irish businesses and entrepreneurs; if we do not correct that trend and take remedial action, we will face paralysis. We must avoid that so as to compliment all the policies pursued by the Government.

One way to tackle the issue is to grant new banking licences similar to the old ICC and ACC banks set up a number of decades ago. These were set up to provide targeted lending for agriculture and small business. The funds from KfW in Germany should not go to the pillar banks of Bank of Ireland and AIB and if we are really committed to doing all we can for small and medium enterprises, we must take inspiration from what has been done in the UK. The UK Government, through its central bank, granted a banking licence for Metro Bank, which targets almost half of its lending at the small and medium enterprise sector and commercial enterprises. That is the kind of statistic I want to see Ireland boast of. Job creation cannot solely be about the number of jobs created. It should also be about the quality of those jobs. I commend colleagues in the Labour Party, including Deputies John Lyons, Gerald Nash, Ciara Conway and Derek Nolan, as well as Labour Youth and its chairperson, Ciarán Garrett, who are campaigning steadily at the moment to end zero-hour contracts. It is something I have come across quite a bit recently in my constituency clinics. As someone who had worked in employment law in the Law Library, I am astounded by the fact that these are on the rise. The nature of these contracts makes it almost impossible for workers to sustain a decent standard of living. They have no knowledge of the number of hours they will work every week or of how much money they will earn at the end of it. The Organisation of Working Time Act 1997 provides for compensation for workers who are on these contracts where they do not receive any hours, but such compensation is clearly insufficient. The problem must be ameliorated to ensure we have good quality jobs that enable workers to have a decent standard of living. It is incumbent on us as a Govern- ment to lead the charge and to show real leadership on this issue. It would save the State money if people were on a sufficient, set number of hours of work as there would be less dependence on supplementary social welfare allowances or income support. I urge the Minister to consider doing something proactive in this regard.

The Tánaiste, Deputy Eamon Gilmore, remarked that as Ireland moves out of the bailout, we must articulate a longer-term vision of the future. Our medium-term economic strategy sets out the objective of achieving full employment by 2020, and this is certainly complemented by Action Plan for Jobs. The clear focus across the whole of the Government has enabled us to exit the bailout and must now be brought to bear on the next target, which is to replace the jobs we have lost, implement Action Plan for Jobs and achieve full and sustainable employment. Action

244 5 March 2014 Plan for Jobs demonstrates the Government’s commitment to job creation, and the employment indicators endorse our job creation strategy. Action Plan for Jobs will undoubtedly help more people return to work. We must consider the banking situation to encourage and help more small and medium enterprises into the market with access to finance as has been done in Eng- land with Metro Bank. Indeed, we should also look at the situation with zero-hour contracts. I am committed to the view that not just any old job will do. It is something I ask the Minister to bear in mind.

05/03/2014Z00200An Leas-Chathaoirleach: I call Senator Barrett. I apologise for the false start earlier.

05/03/2014Z00300Senator Sean D. Barrett: Ná habair é. I met a real entrepreneur when Senator Mary Ann O’Brien came over to tell me about that.

I welcome the Minister to the House. The 61,000 figure is excellent news which shows how the economy has been restoring its competitiveness in the past three or four years. The increase in full-time employment is 3.9%, comprised of an increase in the private sector of 4.5% and a public sector reduction of 1.5%. Unemployment is down by 41,000. It was interesting to read Colm McCarthy’s article on Sunday to the effect that the sources of the growth between 2011 and 2013 were 12.8% in accommodation and hospitality while professional, scientific and technical employment was up by 19.7%. We still have a problem. The briefing document which the Oireachtas service helpfully prepared for us shows that up to 2013, the cumulative decline in youth employment was almost 60%. This represents a drop from 357,000 employed youth in summer 2007 to 148,000 at the beginning of 2013. They do not see that revising, unfortunately.

As Senator Lorraine Higgins has just been saying, we must tackle the bank problem. We have an economy trying to operate without banks or with impaired banks. It has taken far too long. The crisis is now going on for six years. Perhaps, we should look at inducements for different types of banks to enter the market. The Minister for Finance was with us last night in this series and he might be thinking along those lines. Property-based banks like we have had, which are seriously impaired, cannot fuel the growth the Minister seeks and that we all support. I say the same about the accountancy firms who gave us accounts in respect of those banks, which were supposed to be true and accurate. We ended up having to invest €64 billion of public money in them. Not to have a reputation for reliable accountants is a serious obstacle to people like the Minister when they are trying to develop this country. I remain to be convinced that the construction industry would not do the same all over again, unfortunately.

I am not so sure the sheltered section of the economy, which the Minister discusses in Ac- tion Plan for Jobs, has changed its colours either. It is still wedded to restrictive practices. I was thinking of the Minister’s career in economics as he went from UCD to Oxford to the ESRI. I would hope Professor Brendan Walsh, who is in charge of financial regulation, will be able to produce a system of accounting that does verify what is happening. Professor Bent Flyvbjerg at Oxford has set out his fears about large projects such as the Irish public capital programme which we used to boast was twice as large as any other one in the EU. That means bigger cost overruns. Professor Bent Flyvbjerg work shows that large projects lead to large cost overruns. There seemed to be no liability on people. In fact, they were rewarded. The larger the cost overrun, the larger the fees for the people who engaged in those projects. Siren calls that we need to have stimulus packages based on the public capital programme carry a warning light. The export-led growth the Minister has been pursuing is much more reliable.

On the sheltered sectors, Paul Gorecki of the ESRI has been critical of some of the recent 245 Seanad Éireann policies. The unpicking by the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport of the decision to deregulate the taxi business by placing obstacles in front of new entrants has probably cost approximately 5,000 jobs. Some, admittedly, were lost during the recession. We always listen to the incumbents who do not like new entrants. New entrants are the people who keep incumbents efficient and honest in any sector. The Competition Authority is also critical of the proposal to put only 10% of bus routes to competitive tender in 2016. They have been preventing competition in that sector since 1932. It has taken 84 years to get competition for 10% of bus routes. At that rate of progress, it will be 840 years before one gets a competitive bus business.

Members on all sides of the House supported the measure in the early days of the troika to allow new doctors to compete for the General Medical Service. The Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Alex White, spoke about it subsequently. I do not think there have even been 100. The local General Medical Service doctor remains a local mo- nopolist. The legislative provisions were very good. In determining an application, the HSE is not to consider the viability of the applicant or the effect on the viability of anyone else in the business either. The medical profession, which is heavily criticised in the troika reports for high costs, seems to have succeeded again in preventing a measure which all sides of the House wanted to see introduced to improve our competitiveness.

I agree with much of the criticism of the document that was made on George Lee’s programme by Sheila Killian of the University of Limerick and Dr. Moira Creedon of the IMI. It tends to lack numbers, fails to evaluate policies and never seems to want to shut down any policy. It is agency intensive. There are 102 quangos mentioned. Action 109 is to review the regulatory framework for airport charges. What happened to the regulatory framework for airport charges? The regulator, Cathal Guiomard, did not recommend an increase. The previous Government imposed a 41% increase. I hope we are not blaming the regulator. The practice by which Ministers can overrule regulators is what caused the increase.

4 o’clock

I mentioned meeting Senator Mary Ann O’Brien as an entrepreneur and I also met Mr. Mi- chael O’Leary of Ryanair recently. He said there will be 1 million extra passengers because the Government accepted his point that the travel tax was a barrier to people visiting this island.

The Minister is doing a lot of worthwhile and praiseworthy things but we still need to look at how many things went wrong in 2008 and how we can prevent a recurrence. I commend the Minister on commissioning the Competition Authority’s report on port charges. It said that some of the leases in Dublin Port are far too long and effectively prevent competition. As we export 85% of our goods by sea, competition within ports is important.

The movement of Forfás into the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation is also crucial because we need more ideas in this area, given its vital national importance.

Elementary economic rules were broken in setting up Irish Water. We tried to get amend- ments accepted in the House in order that Irish Water would be subject to the Competition Authority and proper capital investment appraisals with a local democracy element would be involved. The Seanad will undoubtedly assist the Minister in all these endeavours, but some old practices are still around in some parts of Government Buildings. I wish the Minister every success in trying to counteract those because we do not want to make the same mistakes again.

The figure of 61,000 additional jobs is most impressive and I congratulate everyone con- 246 5 March 2014 cerned with it. We have so much more to do, however, and practices that predate 2008 will not help. Perhaps one of the problems is the ban on recruitment because the public servants who were there when the economy crashed have had an extra six years. If new economists were being recruited and coming in, they might create better ideas for what the Minister called disruptive innovation. We need to have disruptive innovation in policy discussions. I thank the Minister for attending the House.

05/03/2014AA00200Senator Michael Mullins: I join in welcoming the Minister and compliment him on driving Action Plan for Jobs. It builds upon the action plan that was put in place in 2012, following the change of government, to tackle the massive unemployment crisis when we were shedding 1,600 jobs per week. What marks this out from other plans is that is has a whole-of-Govern- ment approach and every Department is charged with playing its part in job creation. As Sena- tor Barrett said, the plan is working in that 61,000 extra jobs have been created in the past year. The unemployment level has declined every month for the past 19 months. Last month, we had an unemployment rate of 12.3% compared with 15.1% in February 2012.

I welcome the ambitious target in the plan that by the end of this year we will be below the eurozone average for unemployment. By 2016, we will be below 10% and we aim to achieve full employment by 2020. It is courageous of the Government to aim at achieving those figures. The plan is geared to build a sustainable economy brick by brick to create the necessary job levels to tackle the current unacceptably high levels of unemployment.

As other speakers have said, this will be done by improving our competitiveness. It is welcome that Ireland’s world rankings have improved from 24th to 17th in the competitive stakes, but we need to do much better. We also need to tackle over-regulation, planning issues, local authority costs, energy prices and many other elements that contribute to making us less competitive. We should continue to strongly support Irish and multinational exporting companies that have added 20,000 jobs in the past year.

I am pleased to see we are targeting sectors with the potential to create jobs, such as tourism, food and ICT. I welcome the many job announcements that have been made in the past year by major multinationals. Most of the jobs are located in Cork and Dublin, although some are thankfully in Galway city. Not enough jobs are going into the regions, however, and I have spoken to the Minister about this. Large towns like Ballinasloe have suffered significant job losses with the demise of traditional manufacturing, but not enough replacement jobs are spreading into the regions. I hope that situation will improve as more jobs come into our country.

I am pleased that there is a renewed emphasis on manufacturing in the jobs plan. There will be a regional enterprise strategy for each region. In addition, the IDA will build some advance facilities in areas where private enterprise is not meeting that need. We must concentrate on helping the domestic economy as part of the jobs action plan. The tourism and construction sectors have huge potential for job creation. The cutting of the VAT rate on tourism services, shortly after the Government took office, has created 22,000 jobs. It is vital this tax reduction is maintained. I know the Minister, Deputy Bruton, will be having discussions about this with the Minister for Finance.

The abolition of the travel tax in the previous budget has sparked a significant commitment by our airline carriers which hopefully will bring many additional tourists here. The success of the Gathering must be built upon and I am pleased to see that a new tourism strategy is soon to be published. We have a wonderful tourism product which will be further enhanced by the 247 Seanad Éireann addition of the Wild Atlantic Way, a driving route from Donegal to west Cork, with attractions including beaches, golf courses and castles. In some sectors it is now being renamed as the ring road, but we do not mind what it is called. I am sure the Cathaoirleach will be happy to see additional tourists arriving into the west. We must be competitive and deliver value for money. I am greatly concerned that elements of the hospitality sector tend to exploit special events by hiking prices. This is something of which we need to be very conscious.

The construction sector has a key role to play in our recovery, but it is too small for the needs of a growing economy. Approximately 70 school projects will help, as will the energy retrofit plan for local authority houses. Tax relief in the budget for home improvements and extensions is beginning to have an impact. Many small builders are telling me the number of jobs they are pricing is significantly up on last year. It is to be hoped that many of those will come to fruition in the course of this summer.

The retail sector is referred to in the jobs programme but retailers are struggling in rural towns. Bad planning decisions that allowed large multiples to locate on the outskirts of towns have done untold damage to town centre businesses. In addition, rates and local authority charges are crippling small businesses, as are parking charges.

We should also be cognisant of the impact the black economy is having on small businesses. At the Committee on Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation yesterday, I spoke to the Minister about the need to resource local enterprise offices adequately, as they have the potential to kick-start many small enterprises.

I agree with Senator Mary Ann O’Brien who spoke about trading online and the amount of business that is now being done via the Internet. I welcome that 2,000 micro and small businesses will be targeted over the next two years to support them with online trading.

Significant supports are available to businesses, but not every business is aware of all those supports. I urge the Minister and the Department to do everything possible to communicate with the business sector about such supports in order that firms will have an opportunity to add additional staff numbers this year. That would help to drive our unemployment rate well below 10% by 2016.

05/03/2014BB00100Senator David Cullinane: I welcome the Minister and the opportunity to debate the Ac- tion Plan on Jobs. Many Senators have been calling for a debate on jobs and unemployment and I am grateful to the Minister for coming before the House for this discussion.

There is no doubt that the live register figures have been encouraging in recent months. The jobs that have been gained are welcome because every job created is good news for the person who gets it, his or her family and the wider economy. We should, therefore, celebrate every job created and I certainly do so. Much of the increase in employment can be attributed not to Government policy but the resilience of local businesses and the entrepreneurs who are taking risks. The Minister will accept that businesses have found the past six years very difficult but they have endured. Many employers are now taking on new staff and expanding their businesses in response to new opportunities.

The employment figures have shown encouraging signs in the past 12 months, especially the past six months. As the Minister has acknowledged, however, we continue to face challenges. The scale of the challenge facing the State is significant and much work remains to be done. There is also evidence that jobs growth is polarised in a number of ways. For example, 248 5 March 2014 certain sectors are experiencing strong growth, while in other sectors growth has been limited. Moreover, part-time employment has increased significantly and most new jobs are low paid.

05/03/2014BB00200Deputy Richard Bruton: That is not the case.

05/03/2014BB00300Senator David Cullinane: The Minister will have an opportunity to respond.

The economy has experienced significant growth in areas in which employment islow paid and much less growth in areas where jobs are higher paid, which are what the economy needs. Polarisation is also evident in regional development, with some regions not performing as strongly as others. As the Minister is aware, the south east is not performing as it should and the region continues to face serious challenges, including massive unemployment.

Between 250,000 and 300,000 people are still unemployed nationally, of whom slightly more than 60% are long-term unemployed. We have lost a large number of people to emigration in the past six years and the problem persists. The labour market has lost 85,000 people aged under 35 years since the Government came to power. The emigration figures demonstrate that the vast majority of people want to work. People want to get off the live register and get a job to provide for themselves and their families. The problem is that there are still not enough jobs for those who want to work. The focus must continue to be on helping those seeking employment by creating the jobs they need.

I will focus briefly on the issue of regional disparities. I remind the Minister of the unacceptably high level of unemployment in the south east. In doing so, I also acknowledge the role he has played in bringing together stakeholders in the south east as part of the Government’s efforts to create jobs in the region. While there has been some good news on that front, unfortunately the south east still has the highest unemployment rate of all the regions. Waterford city has unacceptable, if not dangerously high, levels of unemployment. This creates distinct problems, which must be addressed through a cohesive, multifaceted, joined-up approach by Government agencies and Departments. Job creation in Waterford city and county requires a suite of interventions from Government and non-government agencies.

Like the Minister, I am very proud of where I come from, namely, Waterford city. I am also proud of the people who live in the city and the efforts being made by entrepreneurs, the community and voluntary sector and civic leaders to create jobs and opportunities for people in the city and county. It is distressing for people in the region to see the live register figures. While the data nationally offer some good news and there has even been some good news for Waterford in terms of new jobs, the level of job creation in the region is insufficient. It is hard to be positive when one comes from a city with the highest unemployment rate in the country. As someone who represents the Waterford, I understand that people living in the city and county do not understand the reason unemployment in the area is so high. There is no reason Waterford should underperform to the extent that it does. It gives me no pleasure to say that as I would love more jobs to be created in the region. I celebrate every job that has been created in Waterford.

The Government can take a number of actions to support the regions. The Minister will be aware that as part of my work as a member of the Joint Committee on Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, I took a proactive decision to meet as many organisations as possible in the south east to discuss what the south east needs and what steps should be taken to assist the region. I met representatives of the chambers of commerce, the enterprise agencies, the community and

249 Seanad Éireann voluntary sector, local government, the vocational education committees and the education and training boards. The joint committee published a strategy for the south east which recommended that a number of steps be taken. They include the establishment, as soon as possible, of a technological university. A level playing pitch is also required in respect of regional aid. The IDA must make greater efforts to assist the region, including through the establishment of a regional office with a regional director and strategy.

I accept that there is no panacea or magic bullet available for the south east. What we need is a strategy that joins up the work of all of the stakeholders and agencies. The interventions which everyone in the south east accepts are necessary must be delivered by the Government. This has not been done to the extent it should have been done. Some of the commitments in the programme for Government, including the undertaking to establish a technological university in the south east, have stalled. Meanwhile, the region continues to wait and underperform. I appeal to the Minister to continue the work he is doing to assist the south east region and Wa- terford city in creating jobs and to ensure we do our best for people in the region. I call on him to ensure the cross-party recommendations issued by the joint committee are implemented. We must demonstrate that the political system has done its best, not only to create more jobs nationally but also in regions that are underperforming.

05/03/2014BB00400Senator Susan O’Keeffe: Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire. It is a good day when the unemployment figures fall below 400,000. The Minister will give credit to his Cabinet team for all the effort that has been made in this regard. However, given his responsibility for jobs, the Minister has done most of the legwork on this issue. This message has been echoed by previous speakers. We are in a great position to build on the aspirations and hopes of citizens. It is difficult for those without a job to understand that things are getting better. If one is looking for work but cannot find a job, it does not feel as if one has achieved anything.

Senator Ó Domhnaill’s comment about tearing the heart out of rural Ireland is an evocative statement with which I do not agree. Rural Ireland is a strong place made up of strong people. The more one argues that its heart has been torn out, the more true this statement may become in people’s minds because they may start to believe what they hear. I would much prefer to dwell on the strengths of rural areas, especially the west coast.

The launch of the Wild Atlantic Way is a live example of how we can create a spirit in a part of the country that has never been able to attract the level of investment enjoyed by Dublin, Cork and to some extent Galway. I would like the Action Plan for Jobs to contain a real recognition that the west coast is the lagging region. While I am aware that there are many economic terms to describe the position of the west, it has lagged behind other regions, not only in the lifetime of the Government. How can we address this issue and create a new feeling for the west coast? The Wild Atlantic Way was originally a terrific tourism idea, one which I continue to support. Ironically, the Wild Atlantic Way was created as a tourist idea. It is a great one which I support. However, in a way it tells a different story in that it is a whole new way of presenting the west of Ireland in a new economic framework. We should use that as an example of how we can build on strengths. One looks at the secrets of the Wild Atlantic Way and one sees Ireland’s teardrop, the last sunset and the wreckage of the Spanish Armada. In fact, what is valuable on the west coast is not foreign direct investment. There has not been as much of that, although what there has been is valuable. What is important is the heritage and culture. Senator Mary Ann O’Brien spoke about welcoming investment in cultural activity. I echo her comments and where she has put a zero on it, I would put two. That is the place where we have the capacity and potential to change the economic fortunes in the region. It is not just about small businesses. If we can 250 5 March 2014 realise our cultural potential, that also has the capacity to create jobs. When I look at the figures for investment in the area, I see that we are still scrabbling and arguing over thousands of euro here and there for the sorts of projects we need to inspire.

People come to Ireland from around the world because they know we have this amazing history and cultural richness that one does not find elsewhere. I had a meeting recently in Sligo which a couple of Dutch people attended. They said “but you were there all of you and you could think of so many people in your culture now that you admire and aspire towards”. One said that in the Netherlands, they could think of three. It was a remarkable observation, which was not sought. We are almost neglectful of what is on our doorstep because we have such an abundance of it. While one must encourage foreign direct investment and all the various industries, not least the food industry, medical devices and information technology, we need a new idea for the west coast. It comes down to the potential for tourism which is closely linked with our culture, architectural heritage and coastline. These are the riches we have.

The Western Development Commission has been doing great work in terms of the creative edge and its own predictions for jobs. The body says that 11,000 people are already employed in creative industries in the west. That is a lot of people. While there are targets to grow those numbers, it may be a matter of the commission being enhanced. The body has not commissioned me to say this but it is central to that core with Fáilte Ireland. We need to stop the lagging for once and for all. The whole of Ireland would benefit. If we build up the Wild Atlantic Way and the ideas that go with it, it will benefit the rest of the country also. I am not here to say “Stop all other activity”. That is also very important. However, having grown up away from the west coast, I see the difference when people think “We have always lagged”. I would like to see a start to the end of that. There is potential. I see huge enthusiasm in the people of the west of Ireland. They are not having their hearts torn out. What the Senator said is not true. We have the capability to build up the strengths that are there. The Minister is positioned to drive it through lots of other organisations which are already doing some of the work.

05/03/2014CC00200Senator Feargal Quinn: The Minister is welcome to the House. The Action Plan for Jobs is a welcome development and makes great reading. I wish to focus on a particular aspect of it which is the number of measures aimed at supporting entrepreneurship and creating jobs. One of the major barriers to creating jobs is upward-only rent reviews. I do not wish to sound like a bore on this matter, but the Seanad passed my Bill last week and it must now go to the Dáil. I hope it receives Government support. I quote from the Action Plan for Jobs action 345:

Highlight, through the retail representative bodies, the NAMA rent review guidelines and seek to ensure they are widely understood and utilised, where appropriate, including in cases where public sector bodies are the owners of premises.

It is not enough to highlight rent review guidelines to retail representative bodies. As Fine Gael and the Labour Party promised in their election campaigns, we must get rid of upward- only rent reviews completely. I have worked for over a year to find a concrete, realistic, workable solution and that solution has the approval of the House. The Government’s only argument has been that any solution is against the Constitution. However, I quote the editorial from the last edition of The Sunday Times:

Quite simply, the advice of one lawyer has changed everything. Máire Whelan, the Attorney General, has told the Government that banning upward only rent reviews would be unconstitutional. This is unsatisfactory as a High Court judge and known constitutional 251 Seanad Éireann expert, Gerard Hogan, has already declared that upward-only rent clauses in contracts can be struck down in legislation.

The editorial goes on to say that rather than stand idly by and let otherwise viable businesses go to the wall, the best legal minds in Fine Gael and the Labour Party should be attempting to find a way around whatever constitutional difficulties there are. It says the only energy the Government shows on this issue is from its party Whips who were reportedly running around Leinster House last week trying to defeat my Bill. It is very sad to consider that.

How can the Government say it supports businesses and create strategies such as the Action Plan for Jobs when it will not address perhaps the principal factor affecting the survival of so many retailers? This is a sector which employs approximately 250,000 people, or 15% of those who are at work. We cannot simply say we cannot get over this constitutional technicality. It is a slap in the face for people who voted for the Government in the hope that it would address the issue and help their businesses. We must come together and support the Bill. We can do it quickly and implement something concrete that will help businesses greatly. It will mean we are protecting existing jobs and setting the conditions to create more jobs. I have got that off my chest and will put it behind me.

The Taoiseach has talked about Ireland being the best small country in the world to open a business, but we can set more concrete targets in the Action Plan for Jobs. We must learn from the best when it comes to making it as easy as possible to start a business. We should reduce red tape as much as possible. According to the World Bank’s 2014 report on the cost of doing business, it takes four procedures and as long as ten days to start a business in Ireland. In Singapore, it takes just three procedures and two and a half days at a cost of approximately €400. New Zealand does even better. There, it takes just one procedure and half a day to start a business. All one has to do is register with the companies office online at a cost of less than €100. Has the Minister heard of the New Zealand example? Perhaps, we should include such a target in the next Action Plan for Jobs. We should set the bar higher. Is the Minister open to the proposal, which I would love to discuss with the Department? I am certain we will get to this stage in the future, but I would love to see some movement right now. What is Revenue doing in this respect?

My third point involves fewer regulations for SMEs compared to large businesses. I have discussed this before at the Joint Committee for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation. An action which is not included in the Action Plan for Jobs but which I would like the Government to consider involves the issue of whether smaller businesses should be subject to the same legislation as large ones. I would like the Government to consider not imposing the same regulation on companies employing fewer than 50 people and perhaps putting fewer burdens on businesses of fewer than ten people. In France, the same rules do not apply to small and large businesses. We could do something here. Many regulations in France come into force only where a firm employs 50 workers or more. Should Google be subject to the same regulation as a small food company employing just five people? We can tailor those regulations.

Another issue is to get rid of redundant regulations to assist SMEs. One part of the Action Plan for Jobs makes reference to reduced costs through smart regulations. Could we move beyond smart regulation to get rid of some regulations completely to make it easier for business? The UK introduced a system of “one in, one out” and then changed it to taking two older regulations out for every new regulation introduced. I think we can move on that. There are some very interesting figures in the UK in respect of that. I think it would be possible to do 252 5 March 2014 that. An issue that is related to this is the Red Tape Challenge in the UK which aims to listen to the public and business with the aim of scrapping or reducing as many as 6,500 regulations that affect people’s everyday lives. It worked and 3,000 regulations will be done away with or at least reduced. There are steps we can take that will encourage businesses to set up and encourage small businesses to develop. I know the Minister’s heart is in the right place and that he has said it is not the Government’s job to create jobs but to create the environment in which businesses can set up business.

05/03/2014DD00200Senator Martin Conway: I welcome the Minister to the House. Action Plan for Jobs is beginning to show significant delivery, but I must sound a note of caution about a number of things. Obviously, we very much welcome it and the interdepartmental, front-up approach across Departments in terms of jobs. The Taoiseach is talking about 2014 being the year for jobs, and I certainly look forward to that. There have been a number of very positive initiatives. We are taking a more long-term, holistic view of what we are doing with the scarce resources we have. The Gathering was certainly one initiative that was prepared and put into action over 18 to 24 months. Senator Mullins mentioned the Wild Atlantic Way. Again, it is a long-term approach to creating a product of international renown. We look at the likes of the Camino de Santiago in Spain. This is something of which we need to take advantage. It is part of our natural resources and the figure of €10 million should be much higher. The figure for promoting this should be in the region of €50 million to €100 million. When one talks about the great walkways of the world and must-sees, the Wild Atlantic Way should be at the top of that list.

I am concerned that what we are seeing is the classic example of urban and rural. When there is a lift, urban areas lift but rural areas tend to slop over. We need to ensure we have a fair distribution of employment opportunities. We are all delighted to see the big names coming in and hundreds of jobs being created but I celebrate five, ten and 20 jobs as much as 200 and 500 jobs. Twenty, 50, 80 or 100 jobs make as much of a difference in small villages with a population of 1,000, 2,000 or 5,000 as 1,000 jobs do in Cork or Dublin. We need to be very cognisant of the fact that we are a country of 32 counties, that there are more areas than the urban centres and that we need to facilitate not only the creation of jobs in rural Ireland in areas where we are strong and have products like tourism but the retention of existing jobs. The buzzword can be new jobs but the buzzword should be jobs, both retention and creation.

Red tape has been reduced in business but, unfortunately, for every line of red tape that is being removed, we are getting another piece of white tape instead. There are too many regulations and requirements. We need to see the red tape removed. There is no reason many things that would have taken weeks to deliver cannot be done within days and things that would have taken days to deliver cannot be done within hours. The knowledge and information technology components and systems exist to ensure we can reduce and eliminate red tape.

I always find it bizarre that when one goes to a little bar or coffee shop in the south of Spain, France or Italy, one can sit at a counter and have food but bars in the west of Ireland have a myriad of requirements relating to HACCP and every other kind of requirement. They must have three or four different types of toilets - men’s, women’s and disabled-friendly. Of course, that is important but if one wants to go to a toilet on the Continent, it is the one toilet. That is just a very simple example of the difference between some of the European countries and this country, yet we are all members of the EU and are told that all these regulations and red tape result from our membership of the EU. We certainly seem to be the most compliant Europeans in Europe, because if that is the case, why does it not happen in other countries? As Senator Quinn said, the challenge is to remove the red tape and that needs to be factored into Action Plan for 253 Seanad Éireann Jobs because the cost of creating jobs is a factor. Governments do not create jobs but they can certainly deal with the significantly high cost of creating jobs, which in essence is red tape.

Overall, I always believe in finishing on a positive note. There is a lot happening. Un- employment is down to nearly 12%. It was much higher a couple of years ago. I believe the Minister and Taoiseach aim to lower it to 10% by 2016, which I think is very achievable. I even think they could bring it down to below that because jobs create more jobs. It has a ripple effect. I wish the Minister well. I am encouraged that 2014 is the year of jobs and that the Gov- ernment, Cabinet and various Ministers are front-loading in terms of creating jobs.

05/03/2014DD00300Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation (Deputy Richard Bruton): I thank Sena- tor Conway and all the Senators who contributed to this debate. It will be very difficult to do justice to all the issues raised but I will deal with a few thematic ones. Senator Ó Domhnaill raised the issue of regional development. This is a serious issue we need to discuss. First, we should start from a factual basis. Every region in the country in the past 12 months has enjoyed employment growth. Contrary to what Senator Cullinane said, some of the regions that enjoyed the greatest growth were the south east, which had more than 15,000 net new jobs, and the Bor- der regions, which had more than 14,000 net new jobs. We are getting regional spread and that is a feature of the recovery.

Of course, it is not driven predominantly by IDA projects. The regional spread is driven by the competitive advantage of regions. One must look at what the competitive advantages of regions are, but in some cases, they will be tourism or food. These are natural sectors that have an absolute fit with the region. Too much of the debate about regional development in this country is conducted around how many site visits the IDA made to the region. The reality is that employment in foreign-owned companies represents 8% of total employment. A total of 92% of employment throughout the country is in other sectors. In some regions, particularly those that are more remote from urban centres, the proportion of foreign direct investment is probably down to around 4%. Yes, we need to have a debate about regional development, but it should not be a debate about 4% of employment where we pretend this is what we really have to solve. The 96% is far more important.

One of the commitments we have made in this action plan is to develop a regional enterprise strategy, which we have never had in the past. The building blocks are being put in place. We will have our local enterprise offices which will each have their own plan. We will develop Enterprise Ireland and IDA plans for the regions. We can meld those into a strategy into which other stakeholders can have an input. A successful regional strategy is often driven by entrepreneurs who decide to make a commitment to support their region, who step out from the pack and decide to create an environment which will encourage enterprise in his or her region. We want to create a framework to help such people to participate. It is not a case of all the State agencies sitting around a table, tugging at their beards and talking about things; we want to create ambition, to develop new tools and invite people to come in behind that. This is what I would like to see.

For example, the 200 companies chosen by Enterprise Ireland and IDA Ireland to be given a step-up will be regionally based. We will examine what companies in each regions have the capacity to grow to the next level. As Senator Keane said, the developing capital fund is one of the instruments. The local enterprise offices will be used to organise competitions to encourage entrepreneurs, in particular, young people, women, the under-represented groups, who could step up to the plate. We are interested in developing regional innovation. Some of the fund- 254 5 March 2014 ing for enterprise offices will be held back to stimulate new thinking about the region and its capability. That is how we need to think about regions, about competitive advantage, about the assets available and what tools can the State and the region adopt to drive that forward. Such a discussion has been absent from our discussion about regional progress.

I refer to Senator O’Keeffe’s comments that different parts of the country have assets which have to be sweated, exploited and developed. We focus on the Atlantic Way which is a real asset but one cannot expect a company like Google to set up on the Atlantic Way. I am not criticising the Senator’s comments but it is a case of having a more intelligent discussion about how to make a region competitive and that will include winning foreign investment. In Senator Ó Domhnaill’s area of Letterkenny we are committing to building an advance production space because we believe the area has the capacity to grow, based on what the region has done. The last couple of years have been good for foreign investment in Donegal. There can be strong beacons in different regions but they have to be built on a solid foundation that will be a magnet to attract foreign investment.

This recession has hit younger people hard. There has been no public service recruitment and it is a case of last in, first out in other sectors. The other factor at work, apart from emigration, is the decline in the numbers in the younger age groups. The next population bulge will increase the numbers in the future. Youth unemployment is the challenge and this is the thinking behind the youth guarantee scheme. It is also the reason for the introduction of the youth entrepreneurship initiative. I refer to the programmes from the Departments of Education and Skills and Social Protection, such as Momentum and Springboard, also the traineeships and apprenticeship review, all of which recognise that we need to ensure that young people are equipped with the best skills to give them a fighting chance. One of the casualties of the recession, besides the collapse of banks, was the fact that people made career choices in an artificial economy which had been created. Employers did not invest in apprenticeships and parents wanted a different type of path for their children. Now it is hoped that we will return to having a small open economy that can create a sustainable competitive advantage in which skills will be important.

Senator Mary Ann O’Brien raised a number of issues about tax and regional aid. My view is that we will have regional aid advantage in certain regions dictated by Europe. Half the number of regions will have the added regional aid available to them. The debate about regions and their growth is not about extra grant aid but it is about creating a competitive advantage and how it is to be endorsed, but regional aid is one of the tools.

We need to examine the incentive structure associated with entrepreneurship. I would like a simplification of schemes such as the seed capital scheme. I am interested in the development of start-up companies. Serial entrepreneurs may be thinking about exiting. Last year’s Finance Bill included provisions to encourage serial entrepreneurs. I would be in favour of a simplification of the seed capital scheme and the new BES because the take-up of those schemes is deplorably low even though they have the potential to be very valuable schemes for start-up and emerging companies.

My initial focus will be on the start-up entrepreneurs rather than those who are exiting. However, I accept that the exit will need to be examined and the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, is willing to look at this whole area.

I agree about the challenge presented by businesses migrating to the web. Irish people 255 Seanad Éireann spend €6 billion in trading on the web and 75% of that expenditure is lost to Irish companies because it goes overseas. It is predicted that in five years’ time the expenditure figure will be €20 billion. The web will no longer be a bit player in Irish consumer spending but rather it will account for a significant amount of the Irish consumer spend - it could be more than one third in that short period of time. If we are not players and our businesses have not migrated to become players they will miss the boat and someone else will eat their lunch, literally. The 2,000 innovation vouchers have been based on a number of pilot schemes in partnership with the Dublin Chamber of Commerce and with one of the software associations. We have refined the scheme and we have a better idea of how it can be used. We will provide 2,000 vouchers but more than 2,000 businesses need to make the commitment. It is a case of making them aware of the scheme. If use of the web is not included in a business model that business will miss the boat. It is a case of understanding technological equipment and big cost savings can be achieved by ironing out problems.

I agree with Senator Lorraine Higgins that banking continues to be a problem for us. New banking players are needed in the marketplace. I will certainly consider the metro bank. There is a commitment to consider alternative funding sources such as crowd funding and all the alternatives. The European Investment Bank is examining whether we can do better in trade finance. KfW bank is in the market. The EIB has invested €200 million in AIB. The NPRF has €850 million invested in alternatives and Enterprise Ireland has €1 billion as an alternative to bank financing. There is about €2.5 billion available in alternatives to bank financing. These are not being fully utilised; it may be that the people do not know about them or perhaps the programme is not properly designed. We plan to revise the credit guarantee scheme this year because it was too restrictive in its initial design. We would be delighted to receive details about the metro bank and how it works. There is a standing committee - it has some awful name to do with State bodies or something like that - on finance, the Central Bank and such worthy organisations. It examines this area and therefore if there are models we need to examine, that committee is examining those.

On the quality of jobs, which Senator Cullinane, who is not present, raised also, there is some misinformation being put out about that. The vast majority of the jobs created in the past 12 months have been full-time jobs. They are not part-time or yellow pack jobs. Nine out of the ten occupations have seen growth. They go from very low skilled, through the high skills up to the top skills; it is spread across the skill levels. It is not the case that we are seeing yellow pack working or a lot of part-time working. That is not to say there is not a problem. There are problems with people exploiting the live register rules to get cheap fits, so to speak, into the live register. There are issues in this area and we will examine those but, by and large, we are seeing quality employment in sectors that have been targeted and that are sustainable. That is encouraging but there are problems.

One of the issues that continues to be a concern is that in important sectors such as food and hospitality, we do not seem to have got an approach yet that provides a career path in these sectors that will attract people long term into them. In France and some other countries this is considered a cherished profession to which chefs, waiters and everyone involved in food commit their lives. Even though it is a huge area of competitive advantage for us we do not have the right skill mix and the career paths, and there is more consideration to be given to that area. Our colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Ciarán Cannon, is very interested in that area and has taken initiatives to try to make changes in it.

Senator Barrett raised a number of issues. In particular he said he would like to see more 256 5 March 2014 deregulation. Progress is being made in this field but there is always room for more progress to be made. I have substantially strengthened the Competition Authority. It has more resources, tougher penalties and the capacity to take on barriers to entry or any anti-competitive behaviour. There is an opening up in these sectors. Some 10% of bus routes may not be a big figure but it is big compared to the large zero that applied, as the Senator rightly said, in the previous years. There is progress happening in that area.

On whether the construction boom could lead to another collapse, I do not believe we will repeat that collapse. The banking controls and the mistakes in the way credit was driven based on external funding, and the way the banks deserted any sensible loan to deposit ratios, will not be made again but we must be conscious of not allowing over-heating in any sector. In many parts of the country the building cost is still higher than the sale cost, therefore, a builder will not start building. Seeing some recovery in price is part of seeing a return to normality in the construction sector but we must be alert in that regard. At a time when, by all common admission, the banks are not lending hand over fist, there is no fear of a boom.

The Senator made the criticism that the Bill lacks numbers and that it will not result in agencies being closed. We are closing down 35 county enterprise boards and creating an integrated structure within the local authorities with a centre of excellence in Enterprise Ireland. That is reform that will deliver better and remove 35 boards from the system. We are making changes.

In the employment rights and industrial relations area we are reducing five agencies down to two, and we believe we will deliver a better service. The evidence exists already that we are doing that. As the Senator acknowledged, we brought Forfás into our Department because I believe we need a policy engine within the Department. For too long we have had strong agencies and a weak policy capability in the Department. We are trying to reverse that and have an intelligent, capable policy arm within the Department. Imbued through all the divisions, and it is not just about one unit but about our entire Department having stronger policy capability, we are working more collaboratively across the Department and having those skills in-house. That is healthy both for the Department and for the agencies because it puts agencies under more scrutiny, and we can be more demanding of our agencies. That is very valuable.

The Senator is right about the need for new blood in the public service and to be fair to Deputy Howlin, that is an area he has addressed and will address increasingly in the future. The Senator will be pleased to know that economics was the first area he picked to strengthen the economic base of the public service. Obviously, he is listening to what the Senator is saying.

On the issue raised by Senator Michael Mullins, the February unemployment rate is down to 11.9% today. It was 12.1% at the end of last year and is now down to 11.9%, therefore, the trend continues to be in the right direction.

Senator Mullins talked about the domestic economy. He will have heard the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, and the Taoiseach emphasise, with our forthcoming construction strategy, that there is an opportunity now to see the domestic economy recover. For the past four years the only source of growth in our economy was in exports. The Senator is right that we must continue our focus on that. It is not a question of letting up on the drive for competitiveness because we need to build our export base. If we can continue, as we did last year, to add 12,000 net jobs in export-oriented companies that will have a knock-on effect in the rest of the economy. We must keep our focus on exports but there is room to look more creatively at some of those other sectors, and that is what we are doing. 257 Seanad Éireann Senator Mullins also raised the issue of rural towns. I hope that the establishment of our local enterprise offices will start to bring local authority thinking into the enterprise space. Many people see local authorities as the drag on enterprise when it is probably one of the most powerful assets a county has in driving enterprise. If we can win over the local authority, and the local enterprise office is part of that campaign, to become a driver of enterprise, that would be very welcome. I would love to see the different counties vying to be the best county in Ireland in which to create a business, just as we are saying that to our European colleagues. That is the sort of thinking within our local authorities that would result in them being more innovative on areas such as rates or parking. It is to get them to think about those issues more creatively.

To be fair to local authorities, they have taken a big hit in resources. No one will be their fairy godmother, therefore, they can only give rate concessions as they achieve efficiencies. That is the reality in which we all live but the report of the city and county managers has shown that over 700 initiatives are being taken by different local authorities to support enterprise. Many of those could be mainstreamed. I do not know if there is a Senator here from Cork but Cork County Council has 1% of its rate set aside for enterprise support. It uses that every year to promote interesting projects in the Cork region, and it does that year in, year out. That is a very interesting approach and there are many other examples of people who have played to their strengths.

Senator Cullinane is not present but we certainly will continue our focus on the south east. As I stated in my earlier remarks, there are an additional 15,000 people at work in the south east. Its unemployment rate came down by three points from 18.8% last year to 15.5%. It still is the highest rate in the country but that is very significant progress in a year, and we will continue to focus attention on that.

I will not venture to comment on the role of the Western Development Commission but my ambition is to create a regional enterprise framework where we can bring in more stakeholders in other parts of the State and non-State environment to back what we are trying to do in the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation.

5 o’clock

We need to give people a clear statement of the views of IDA Ireland, Enterprise Ireland and the local enterprise offices on the areas for development and try to enlist support behind them. That is what we can do to try to create the environment.

We are preparing for the year of design in 2015. I believe it has the potential to be an interesting area, dipping into a wider range than we might be considering as our areas of competitive edge.

Senator Quinn is nothing if not persistent on the issue of upward-only rents. The truth is that it is not just the opinion of one lawyer, but of a series of lawyers, including the present and previous Attorneys General. Certainly the two parties gave it their very best shot to find a solution that is constitutionally sound, but we were unable to find one. Considerable effort went into it. At this point we are moving on to tackle other issues.

The issue was that to deal with a contract and remove the rights that a person had in a contract would require compensation and the taxpayer just does not have the money to be providing compensation. One man’s rent that is too dear is another man’s rent for a property on which he cannot afford to pay the mortgage. It is not always as simple as saying that the people who get 258 5 March 2014 the rents are wealthy and that the people who are paying the rents are poor; that is not the way. That is why the Constitution affords people rights that have to be protected.

However, we are doing the following. Through NAMA where a case is presented, NAMA landlords will adopt an approach of being flexible. Increasing flexibility is being shown and landlords are doing deals with tenants.

Clearly we are now trying to do things for the retail sector. Trading online is a lifeline and essential for the long-term future of retail. Taking up another of the Senator’s themes, we are creating a single portal for retail businesses to be able to access all the licences - approximately 25 of them - with which they must comply. That will significantly reduce their costs.

We take into account the World Bank’s ease of doing business tables. The Senator is right in pointing out that we are pretty competitive on starting a business when compared with most countries. New Zealand is undoubtedly better. We look at those rankings with a view to moving up. This year the National Competitiveness Council, on which we have put some new industry partners, will report quarterly to the Cabinet committee on these or other issues it has identified as having the capacity to give us an edge. If any Senator wishes to suggest any regulations he or she believes are redundant or should be changed, we certainly have the appetite to consider them.

There was an exercise up to 2012 in taking out administrative costs. It was designed to deliver a 25% reduction in administrative costs. In many areas it did so; in some areas it did not. A lot of things are happening. The House will shortly have before it a simplification of the companies legislation. That is a big dollop of work running to 1,500 sections, designed to make setting up and running a company easier. It will be easier to comply and provides for many simplifications relating to AGMs and boards of directors. That is coming the Senator’s way and he might regret his enthusiasm for it when it arrives in the House because it is quite a Bill. We are definitely up for any simplification we can deliver. Senator Conway raised the same issues.

I have dealt with the issues as best I can. I again thank the Senators for their support for what we are doing here. This approach has the merit that there will be another plan in 2015. Between now and late summer we will be trying to glean new ideas and refine them to proposals we can implement. I am working with the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation under the chairmanship of Deputy English, which is doing considerable good work. This provides a vehicle for continually adapting to changing circumstances, which is a real merit of the approach. We are all in learning mode trying to deal with this crisis.

Sitting suspended at 5.05 p.m. and resumed at 5.30 p.m.

05/03/2014HH00100Child Protection: Motion

05/03/2014HH00200Senator Jillian van Turnhout: I move:

“That Seanad Éireann –

- recognises that childhood, as a time-specific and unique period in a person’s development, is a distinct space from adulthood; 259 Seanad Éireann - appreciates the difficulties and pressures faced by children and parents as the distinct space between childhood and adulthood becomes increasingly blurred through media, advertising and popular culture;

- believes that every effort must be made to protect children and childhood against sexualisation and undue gender stereotyping;

- echoes the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs endorsement of Responsible Retailing: Retail Ireland Childrenswear Guidelines (June 2012) and her statement that ‘the preparation of these guidelines is yet another example of how working together we can, as a State and society, help to foster a culture where childhood is preserved and children are protected’;

- commends An Coimisiun Le Rinci Gaelacha, The Irish Dancing Commission, for introducing additional rules prohibiting the use of make-up including false eyelashes, tinted moisturiser, or any artificial tanning products for the face for all dancers aged 10 years and under. (Effective 1 March 2014.);

- believes that the participation, for financial gain, in a competition by minors, judged on attractiveness and physical attributes rather than discernible skill is contrary to the protection of children and preservation of childhood and therefore condemns child beauty pageants in Ireland;

- further holds that child beauty pageants run contrary to the values set out in the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child;

- cognisant of the current economic climate, greatly appreciates the significant decision by each of the hotels approached by Universal Royalty back in September 2013 to decline hosting a child beauty pageant on their premises and welcomes the support of the Irish Hotels Federation in opposing child beauty pageants in Ireland;

- calls on all stakeholders to be resolute in opposing child beauty pageants in Ire- land;

- calls on all Senators to formally endorse the appeal made by Senator Jillian van Turnhout in Seanad Éireann on 19 September 2013 to send a clear message that child beauty pageants have no place in Ireland; and

- seeks political consensus in its opposition to child beauty pageants across both Houses of the Oireachtas and invites Dáil Éireann to pass a similar Motion.”.

I welcome the Minister to the House and I thank her in advance for her support. I also thank my Independent Group colleagues, Senators Fiach MacConghail, Mary Ann O’Brien, Marie- Louise O’Donnell and Katherine Zappone for allowing our time to be used for this debate. In particular, I thank Senator O’Donnell who will be seconding the motion. I thank each and every Senator for their unanimous support of the motion. It is wonderful, heartening and exciting to see Seanad Éireann united across political divides and ideological differences and to hear Mem- bers speak out for children and protecting the sanctity of childhood.

I have made my opposition to the holding of child beauty pageants in Ireland well known since the ultimately futile efforts by Universal Royalty to secure a hotel venue for a child pageant in September 2013. The campaign started from the floor of this House. Regrettably, 260 5 March 2014 albeit on a much smaller than anticipated scale, the event did go ahead in a beer garden in Castleblayney, County Monaghan, and Universal Royalty pageant organiser, Annette Hill, has reportedly confirmed her intention to host at least one more child beauty pageant in Ireland in the near future. This is why, with the support of my group, I have tabled the motion condemn- ing the holding of child beauty pageants in Ireland.

We are old enough for long enough. I firmly believe that childhood is a time-specific and unique period in a person’s development and that participation, for financial gain by others, in a competition by minors who are judged on attractiveness and physical attributes rather than any sort of discernible skill is seriously problematic and contrary to protecting childhood. I am not alone in the strength of my conviction in opposing child beauty pageants taking place here. I have already referred to the support from the House. In particular, I commend the transition year students in Mount Mercy College in Cork. They developed a transition year project, “Don’t Let the Wrecking Ball Wreck You”, a clever reference to Miley Cyrus’s hyper-sexual music video and the negative impact of an increasingly sexualised pop culture on our young people. As part of the project they launched a petition on change.org to help stop child beauty pageants being held in Cork. The students contacted me in the early stages of the project development and I was most impressed by their initiative, commitment and drive.

The Irish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, ISPCC, has also spoken out against child beauty pageants and communicated publically the harm it believes such pageants can inflict on the self-esteem and self-image of children. Children at Risk in Ireland, CARI, has also come out in support of the cause and I agree fully with them.

Negative body image, especially but not exclusively affecting women, starts early. I presume it starts as early as children and teens become cognisant of the relentless images of perfection we are all bombarded with through the media, advertising and popular culture and it can be very damaging. Negative body image can cripple people’s confidence and prevent them from participating in sports and other activities with health benefits. There are numerous health risks associated with crash and fad diets and, at the extreme end of the spectrum, negative body image is linked to self-harm, anorexia, bulimia, depression, and anxiety. It is becoming a major problem throughout the world, so much so that in 2009 the Australian Government set up a national advisory body on body image to recommend initiatives to improve the body image of Australians. In Israel, where the leading cause of death for those aged 15 to 24 years is anorexia, Photoshop laws have been introduced whereby any Photoshopped image must have a clear warning covering 7% of the surface area of the photo. The law there also requires that all models must have a body mass index of 18.5. In France, specialists involved in the research behind the parliamentary report, Against Hyper-Sexualisation: a New Fight for Equality, which is the report that prompted the French Senate to introduce a ban on child beauty pageants, con- cluded that precocious sexualisation affected mostly girls and caused psychological damage that is irreversible in 80% of cases.

I have had the displeasure of watching several televised child beauty pageants from the USA in the lead-up to this debate. I heard some frankly grotesque statements from so-called pageant moms. One said:

When I see Ronnie up on stage I can’t believe she is only two. She did her sassy walk and really shook it. She also did her blow kisses.

Her mother went on to translate for us that “blow kisses” means “Hey judges, come get it, 261 Seanad Éireann baby.” She is two. I need not elaborate on why this is inappropriate behaviour for a two year old child. It became clear to me that the best personality prize is in fact the default prize for the children who did not win in the real categories of beauty, casual wear and swim wear. If it is obvious to me then it is obvious to everyone involved in pageantry, including the children. The suggestion is that those with the best personalities are the losers. This is not acceptable and it does not bode well for the development of well-rounded, grounded and confident children with strong internal value systems.

I emphasised the point earlier about beauty pageants not involving any discernible skill in an effort to distinguish child beauty pageants from Irish dancing, which was frequently drawn as a comparison when I was discussing the pageants in September last year. I did not know much about the Irish dancing world. My gut said that it was an unfair comparison since Irish dancing is rather technical and timing, rhythm and footwork are of the utmost importance. It takes years of practice and discipline to master these skills. However, as I have acknowledged in the motion, I am aware of the difficulties and pressures faced by children and parents trying to navigate the world and make choices in the face of an increasingly sexualised and adult world. I tried to find out whether anything could be done to protect children from this in Irish dancing. I was pleased to learn from An Coimisiún Le Rincí Gaelacha, the Irish Dancing Com- mission, that as of 1 March 2014, it has introduced new rules prohibiting the use of make-up, including false eye lashes, tinted moisturiser or any artificial tanning products for the face, for all dancers under ten years of age. Ten years of age seemed a low threshold to me initially but a representative from the commission explained that it would be virtually impossible to impose the rule on dancers worldwide beyond the age of ten years because they are competing in world championships, but I will continue to urge them to go further.

Also, the new rule is in addition to an existing rule that has been in place for many years which prohibits make-up for any dancer in the first two dancing grades, the Bungrad and Tus- grad and their equivalent, up to and including the 12-year age group worldwide. Let me give another example. The British Dance Council has introduced a strict requirement that costumes must be of one colour and without glitz so we can see that there have been moves in this direction.

The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child has rightly stressed the importance of a right to play for children. A few years ago the Children’s Rights Alliance consulted children before going to the UNCRC and the children put their right to play as the number one recommendation and priority to be raised with the UN committee.

It is clear to that this is an issue on which society is eager to stand united. Last September when I spoke against the pageants I received more telephone calls, emails and notes of support from the public than I have for any other issue that I have worked on. The issue is not about us being a nanny State; it is about collective social responsibility towards children.

Some people have asked whether I would consider bringing legislation but that would be a sledge hammer approach. The unanimous support that we got in the House is a strong call to action that we, as a society, have a responsibility. For me, tonight is a call to action not only to my colleagues here as I hope Dáil Éireann will pass a similar motion. It is a call to action for civil society organisations, parents, young people and society at large. We need to send a clear and unified message that there is no place in Ireland for child beauty pageants.

05/03/2014JJ00200Acting Chairman (Senator Lorraine Higgins): I call Senator O’Donnell and she has six 262 5 March 2014 minutes.

05/03/2014JJ00300Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell: I welcome the Minister and thank Senator van Turn- hout for bringing this matter to the House.

In 1994, 20 years ago, a man called Neil Postman wrote a book called The Disappearance of Childhood. In the opening of his book he wrote:

As I write, twelve- and thirteen-year-old girls are amongst the highest-paid models in America. In advertisements in all the visual media, they are presented to the public in the guise of knowing and sexually enticing adults, entirely comfortable in the milieu of eroti- cism.

Little did he know then that would now be happening to five, six and seven-year olds. He continued:

This perception of children as miniature adults is reinforced by several trends besides criminal trends. For example, the increased level of sexual activity among children has been fairly well documented.

The media industry, the Internet industry, the music and video industry have played a huge and defining role in the drive to erase the differences between child and adult sexuality. Tele- vision in particular holds the entire population enthralled and in a condition of high sexual excitement but stresses, on a daily basis, the egalitarianism of sexual fulfilment regardless of age or profile. Sex is the greatest industry in the world and more lucrative than oil. It is available to everybody at any time at any place and is becoming ageless. It has now transformed from a private and profound adult mystery to a product that is available on shelves in a store like mouthwash or deodorant. Adult Language is used by children, adult profanity is used by children and filthy words are used by children. One can hear such words used comfortably and profusely even by children as young as six years old. It is a significant fact because it is another example of the erosion of the traditional distinction between children and adults. The media has been outstanding in producing a lowered state of language competence in the young. Ho- mogeneity of style, food games and clothing removes the gap consistently between adults and children. Mum dresses like daughter and daughter dresses like mum so there is no age gap in children’s clothing. Nine-year old boys wear three piece suits to birthday parties and 60-year old men wear jeans; nine-year old girls wear high heels and adults wear sneakers.

Senator van Turnhout was right and I agree with her that every child has a right to play. In the 18th century Rousseau wrote avidly about their right to play and that their natural environment should be free from contamination. Froebel and Maria Montessori following his ideas in the 19th century by saying that children learn naturally through play. It is the total sum of their selves and it is through play that their total identity becomes manifest but if we look at some city based primary schools - one of which my son attended - there is no place provided for children to play. Imagine the planning and the priorities that went into that situation and the insurance companies that benefit and feed off such a situation. At times our housing estates are no better.

Children’s toys are now the instruments to push, propel, profit from and adultify children. Play has now been sabotaged by the intervention, direction and control of adults which is what beauty pageants are all about. They brainwash people and provide distilled examples of a belief that children are equal to adults when they can never be equal. Child beauty pageants see chil- 263 Seanad Éireann dren as sophisticated consumers. They are the greatest example of a brilliant infiltration into children’s natural play by adults for adults in order to make children part of or an extension of the adult world. They are adult play but they are not children’s play. Children need to control their own space and not be confined to what adults understand and accept as sensual or sexy. It is another word for child labour that was outlawed in the 1830s. I can call such pageants child labour because they do not shelter children from adult corruption and how adults see and respond to the world or buy into how their world should be.

Child beauty pageants are adult controlled ways of shaping children and create social learning skills around adult anticipatory physical behaviour. They are also a contradiction of the word beauty because beauty is best described by Gerard Manley Hopkins who said that it is the possession of God who is “beauty’s self and beauty’s giver”. Beauty is never tired or cliched or a semi-sexual attempt to look leery with a kind of jaded attention within an adult world through the use of make-up, clothes or hair and it is not pouting, pointing, leaning or looking lascivious- ly. All of this behaviour at child beauty pageants is very simply about the power and control of children’s play which is organised, orientated and lived through by adults as part of their world. Beauty pageants are not a mode of expression. They are a mode of social and sexual control.

I started my contribution by quoting the great Neil Postman - who died too young - and will end with him because he said that the big question for all of us is what to do about the disappearance of childhood. He said: “I do know the answer. I say this with a mixture of relief and dejection. The relief comes from my not having the burden of instructing others on how to live their lives”. I cannot answer either. My imaginative reach for solutions like Postman may not go farther than my grasp of the problem. His dejection came from the same source:

To have to stand and wait while the charm, malleability, innocence and curiosity of children are degraded and then transmogrified into the lesser features of pseudo-adulthood is painful and embarrassing and above all, sad.

I cannot prevent it but can only tell Senators why it occurs.

Child beauty pageants should be banned. Rousseau influenced the French Revolution so we should be influenced by the French nation and ban them. It is as simple as that.

05/03/2014JJ00400Minister for Children and Youth Affairs (Deputy Frances Fitzgerald): I welcome the motion that has been tabled by Senator van Turnhout and other Senators. The Government and I are happy to support it. I have been struck by the points that have been made. Like Senator van Turnhout said about what happened when the matter was debated last year, I also got a very big reaction from people. Many people were horrified that child beauty pageants could happen in Ireland.

I welcome this complex motion as it offers an opportunity to examine an unexamined assumption in our lives - an assumption about childhood. First, we assume that childhood is a place or state that has always existed, more or less, in the way that it exists today. Second, we assume that childhood is a venerated and protected state across the world but neither is the case.

Without question, childhood is a reasonably recent artefact. Of course children were always children but a separate state - a discrete area constituting childhood - has existed for little more than 200 years in a severely limited geographical area. In most countries, for most periods, children were born and if they survived their first year - which was not probable - they speedily often became assistants to their working parents. The concept of childhood per se did not exist. 264 5 March 2014 Mothers took their babies into the fields with them. Paintings of royal families, down through the ages show the offspring of a King and Queen alongside their.parents but never as children. They were dressed, posed and painted as miniature adults and we have seen that portrayal very frequently. That portrayal was emblematic of how they were viewed, not just in those families but in many families. They were viewed as assets and heirs to be married off long before either of the two children involved was capable of a meaningful marriage. Those are some examples but there are many more.

Until recent times, childhood was not regarded, to use the terms used in this motion, which are very interesting, as a time-specific and unique period in a person’s development. Nobody expected parents to dote over their newborns because they might not have been around.

Mothers were lucky to survive the process of birth and fathers had very little involvement. In the past we have seen fostering arrangements in Ireland that often meant that children were effectively swopped, which inevitably meant further distancing from the processes we would today regard as the norm.

Poor women who had recently given birth were likely to find employment as wet-nurses to the babies of richer women, and the supply of milk to their own babies reduced. The fact is that childhood, for most of recorded history, has been invisible to social history because it was disregarded at the time by the people who were writing that history. It was disregarded, because it was, sadly, nasty, brutish and in many cases, grievously short. Things began to change in the early years of the 20th century. There were specialists such as John Bowlby who was one of the first people that many of us who studied social sciences heard about. He spoke about the importance of attachment. In many ways, in historic terms, our understanding of attachment is so recent. The notion emerged very strongly because of his work and the work of many others, of a greater psychological understanding of the importance of a child as an interesting and different human being whose care might usefully be subject to various standards.

Then came Dr. Spock, not the man in Star Trek, but the man who talked about children and parents and focused on relationships and the importance of the role of the parents. He highlighted the child’s needs rather than those of the parents. He got us to think about the child as a very unique individual for whom there had to be strict standards to which all children should respond. He positioned the baby as a unique individual. In some ways he introduced guilt into parenting because so many parents were concerned about how they would respond to their child. Not only was childhood now a “time specific and unique period in a person’s development and a distinct space from adulthood” it was - as portrayed by the good doctor - a uniquely fragile and delicate period, wherein parents could make mistakes that could mark a child for life. Thankfully, we have a much more balanced approach to all of this. It is important to make that historic point about the period of childhood when the odds of survival were so stacked against children that having a strong relationship with one’s own child did not make that much sense because one was likely to lose the child. We now have such a greater understanding of all these issues and the importance of bonding and how pivotal that is.

In the latter half of the 20th century, childhood became childhood with its own culture, with books and first radio and then television programmes devoted to it. When mothers were in the home full time that was reflected in television programmes. That social reinforcement did create an illusion of a period of childhood filled with innocence and lasting until at least the age of five. Sometimes when we look back there is a tendency to idealise that period and to say that things were very good. 265 Seanad Éireann It is important when we are discussing childhood and what is happening to contemporary childhood to think about some of the dreadful experiences in our own country, of children who, very recently, were lost to reformatories and institutions often to sustain a myth of a law-abiding Catholic country where an entire family could be damned and downed because of an out of wedlock pregnancy or because a parent was not capable of parenting. Some of those children who were criminalised as toddlers are still with us today. If one were to show them the television programmes broadcast during the time they were in cold, brutal institutions, they would not recognise the idealised childhood portrayed in many of those programmes and often talked about in this country because they never experienced anything like it.

In setting out to create a context for a childhood that is gentle, protected and productive, let us never buy the myth that this has existed in the past, except in lucky pockets, because it has not. That puts into context the changing situation in regard to childhood and the greater understanding of the importance of this period. The motion tabled by Senator van Turnhout with the support of other Senators puts into context the importance of having a Minister at Cabinet working on a range of issues. To have children represented at Cabinet by a permanent Minister, rather than occasionally by a Minister of State, is the most solid statement of intent that any Taoiseach could make.

05/03/2014KK00200Senator Jillian van Turnhout: Hear, hear.

05/03/2014KK00300Deputy Frances Fitzgerald: There are many challenges in this area and there is much work to be done but we are putting building blocks in place that will protect some of those vulnerable children that, undoubtedly, we still have in this country.

That statement of intent is based on an absolute acceptance of the proposition in the motion that “childhood, as a time-specific and unique period in a person’s development, is a distinct space from adulthood.” That is at the heart of the motion. It is also based on an appreciation of “the difficulties and pressures faced by children and parents as the distinct space between childhood and adulthood becomes increasingly blurred through media, advertising and popular culture.” Senator O’Donnell has given us some really vivid examples about that decreasing space and the challenge of continuing to protect that childhood space as much as we can.

Parenting has always been hard for different reasons at different times. There is no question of that. John Millington Synge, the writer, recorded one kind of tragic parenting in his marvellous play, Riders to the Sea, where a mother lost her three sons and gives a poetic account of all her sons drowning, one by one. “They’re all together now,” she finally says, “and there isn’t anything more the sea can do to me.” We would hope that no mother now would go through what that mother went through. Young deaths still happen and grieving is still hard. I think I can probably safely say that the concept of sexualisation of the young child was not one about which the mother in Synge’s time had heard much. It was not a real concept for people in the early decades of the 20th century in relation to children. It is interesting to note how much that has changed because now the sexualisation of children, and discussions around it, is a very present concept and is really a dangerous form of theft from children.

There is growing concern that the space of childhood is shrinking. Once upon a time, children became teenagers. Now we have the “tween” culture. Commercialisation and sexualisation work hand-in-hand, as has been said by both Senators, to shrink the space of childhood; downgrading the concept of childhood; promoting the attainment of premature adulthood; selling a dangerous allure; de-sensitising innocent minds, which is a very issue in our popular 266 5 March 2014 cultures today; and steering them towards inappropriate, thoughts behaviours and untimely activity. Catapulting little girls and boys into a sexuality for which they are neither physically nor cognitively ready is a form of theft. It is the theft of childhood. For the theft of childhood, no form of restorative justice exists. Once stolen, it is gone forever. It leaves a great gaping hole that can never be fully filled or fully healed for those children.

On the question of the clothing that has been on sale in recent years for children that is inappropriate for their ages, it is not the same for adults and children. Clothes with suggestive slogans are not the same for adults and children. Overtly sexual cuts and styles are not the same for adults and children. Unreal or unbalanced portrayals of an ideal body-image are not the same for adults and children, and people make many excuses when it comes to this issue. They say things such as, “It was just a joke.”, “No harm was meant.”, “Little girls loved the clothes.”, or “Their mothers approved.”

It is interesting the way retailers have changed in relation to this issue. When I extended an invitation to the Irish retail sector to respond to increasing concerns about the sexualisation of children’s wear, Retail Ireland responded and was a leader in this area. It brought forward Ireland’s first ever guidelines on the responsible retailing of children’s wear.

6 o’clock

It is important to note that these guidelines are not just about restricting what retailers can sell. They provide constructive guidance on best practice on a range of issues such as styling, slogans, age-appropriateness, size, labelling and marketing. The code is playing an important and constructive role in informing future decision-making and ordering of the next season’s clothes by retailers. For example, on the appropriateness of new and emerging fashion trends for children while further providing a framework within which retailers can responsibly consider and respond to growing concerns over body image among children.

Various retailers have been very happy to sign up to the guidelines. They include Arnotts, Brown Thomas, Clerys, Debenhams, House of Fraser, Marks & Spencer, Next, Pennys, Tesco and TK Maxx. Dunnes Stores is not a signatory but it has responded directly to me and indicated that it complies with best practice.

I am happy to report that the number of complaints regarding inappropriate childrenswear has fallen. However, I urge parents to continue to feedback any concerns or complaints about the issue. Retail Ireland is now working with the Northern Ireland Retail Consortium to draw up a unified strengthened text for the entire island which will be published in the summer. A North-South element is an important step.

In terms of the protection of children and of childhood, progress of this kind is very good. Voluntary progress is twice as good which is what the retailers have done and delivered. That is the culture of co-operation that we need to have if we are going to change this complex topic being discussed tonight.

It is often said that it takes a village to rear a child. If that is true then it falls to every stake- holder, as Senator van Turnhout has said, to contribute and discuss this culture and to make the best possible decisions. We all must play a role in protecting children and to protecting childhood from early sexualisation and undue gender stereotyping. We must be very vigilant in that regard.

267 Seanad Éireann In the context of what is being discussed here tonight, the early sexualisation, the destruc- tive and inappropriate gender stereotyping where young children are asked to wear very inappropriate clothes and make-up. We have seen this happen in a variety of settings. I commend the Irish Dancing Commission for introducing additional rules prohibiting the use of make-up in the under-10 age groups. That is an important initiative which the Senator mentioned here tonight. Many people do a double-take when they see extremely talented young girls dance wearing make-up that is clearly inappropriate for very young children to wear. The fact that it is inappropriate has been recognised by the decision taken by the Irish Dancing Commission. It is also an example of voluntary progress and a culture of co-operation that is needed to protect children and safeguard them.

Senator O’Donnell referred to activities that demean children and situations where voluntary progress does not happen because money and notoriety goes along with certain activities. I agree with her that one of the activities is child beauty pageants. The idea of a child beauty pageant leaves me with a bitter taste in my mouth. It is the promotion of beauty pageants for financial gain by a contest where little children are judged and turned into winners and losers based not on skills that they have learned or an ability that they can prove but on how glammed up their parents can make them. We are talking about two, three, four and five-year olds. We are not talking about teenagers but under 10-year olds.

I believe and agree with Senator van Turnhout that this kind of pageantry runs counter to the values set out in the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. The convention might not have prevented hotels from hosting such pageants last year. Let us remember that many of the hotels were under great financial pressure. A contest like this, which involves hundreds of children and their parents and also provides lots of photo opportunities for publicity, must have been seriously tempting to many of them. The response of the hotels is encouraging and praiseworthy. Each of the hotels approached by Universal Royalty - the company that promoted the pageant last September - declined the opportunity to host the event. In the interests of children those hotels turned down the opportunity to make money. Those venues must be congratulated for doing so along with the Irish Hotels Federation for opposing child beauty pageants in Ireland. This is another example of voluntary progress and of the culture of co-operation needed. I hope that public opinion and the responsible position of many players will continue to play a role in ensuring that further attempts to hold such pageants are also dis- suaded.

I want Ireland to be a cold house for child pageants but that does not always require legislation. Legislative proposals in France on banning pageants ran into difficulties in light of criticisms and legislative difficulties regarding the vagueness around the specifics of what types of events were addressed. I hope we will not have to go there in Ireland. I have asked the Department to examine options and to commission an international review of responses made by other countries to these issues in order to inform the Government’s response and future actions. I can confirm that my Department has commissioned the Centre for Effective Studies to undertake the review this year - 2014 - which will build on another research project. At present, UCC is conducting a research project that was commissioned and funded by my Department through the scholarship programme of research. It is looking at data on the commercialisation and sexualisation of children in Ireland which is important research that will be published before the summer.

In conclusion, I thank Senator Van Turnhout for submitting the motion which I and the Government are happy to support. In standing together we are reinforcing the culture of co- 268 5 March 2014 operation. Similarly, we must all continue to foster co-operation in order to ensure society stands together which includes: parents, media, retailers, event organisers, businesses and many more players. We all stand together to protect children and safeguard the space of childhood.

05/03/2014LL00200Acting Chairman (Senator Marie Moloney): I call Senator Power and she has six minutes.

05/03/2014LL00300Senator Averil Power: I, too, welcome the motion and the fact that it has cross-party support. It is significant that the Minister has expressed her support for the motion.

The background of this matter has already been outlined. It relates to the decision last year to hold a beauty pageant here. Most of us were shocked and surprised that such an event could take place in Ireland. Thankfully, as was pointed out, most of the hotels turned down the event. The matter lead to us to consider what is acceptable for children from a child protection and child welfare point of view.

Child beauty pageants have been a feature in the US for quite some time. I have an Ameri- can intern who works in my office. She has told me about bizarre television shows in the US where people parade their children and put make-up and false eyelashes on two, three, four, five and six-year old children. Such programmes makes the children household sensations but their fame is not based on individual talent but on their looks which is an horrendous concept. If these pageant competitions were allowed to happen here the outcome would be similar. Televi- sion shows and other events would be built around the sexualisation and exploitation of very young kids - a move that would be very damaging.

Let us look at the size of the industry in the States. A recent report has suggested that the modern child beauty pageant industry comprises 250 pageants that generate $20 billion annually. Also, rival families whose children contest the pageants often incur huge debts through spending up to $30,000 on competitions. Apart from the financial costs incurred by parents and families, Senator van Turnhout mentioned the personal cost and toll pageants take on the children involved. Pageants have an impact on their self-esteem, on their sense of self and on what is valued about themselves due to emphasis being placed on their body image, appearance, attractiveness to adults and adult concepts, sexual attraction and things like that. It is bizarre to even use the term “attractiveness” when referring to small children. The Senator mentioned difficulties, including anorexia, which are consequences of putting such an emphasis on how children and young people look. We have seen reports from the United States of parents subjecting their little girls to botox treatment, facial threading, waxing, hair and nail extensions, and false teeth. I have been told that small children are regularly given false teeth to make them look perfect according to other people’s views of what they should be like and what is attractive. The whole idea is repugnant.

I hope that change will come about due to the moral force of our argument and I agree with the Minister that we should not need to legislate in this area. Senator van Turnhout has addressed the matter as a sledge-hammer but I hope we will not have to do that. It would be daft and silly to do so. Most parents agree that this is ridiculous and, thankfully, the Irish Hotels Federation has said that beauty pageants are not acceptable for hotels. Most venues turned them down last year. At a time when businesses are under pressure, however, the worry is that some might feel they should avail of an opportunity to host such a big event but that would be disappointing.

269 Seanad Éireann The motion refers to Irish dancing but I had not seen such a competition for some years until I attended an event last year. I could not believe how much it had changed in terms of how the dancers present themselves. It was quite bizarre to see young girls dressed in short costumes with fake tans, false eyelashes and huge wigs. It took away from what is beautiful about Irish dancing, which is watching the footwork skills. The old fashioned costumes had a sense of Irishness but it was bizarre to watch people dancing in neon-pink and other colours that do not represent Irish traditions or culture for me.

I welcome the fact that new rules have been put in place by the Irish Dancing Commission to prohibit the use of make-up, including false eyelashes and artificial tans for dancers under the age of ten. I hope the commission will go further because I think it looks crap on anybody, whether they are ten or 20, to traipse out in ridiculous big wigs and plastered in fake tan. It takes away from what competitors should be judged on in Irish dancing, which is skill and not the superficial appearance of the dancers. I urge the commission to re-examine that age limit because ten is still quite young.

Last month, a former Irish dancer said she welcomed the rule changes, which will be a great relief to many parents and teachers. The problem hitherto was that nobody wanted their child to be the only one on stage who was not orange. People felt a need to comply even if they could see that it was bizarre and ridiculous. It is difficult for a child to be the odd one out. If everybody else is dolled up and wearing make-up, fake tan and the shortest possible skirt under the rules, a child will feel under pressure to conform.

The rules should be changed so that such competitions would be about beautiful Irish dancing, which is celebrated around the world when people watch Riverdance performances. The skill and speed of that show is so popular around the world, so we should get back to the beauty of Irish dancing here. I welcome the motion and commend Senator van Turnhout on the leadership she has shown on this matter over the past year. We should continue to push the issue because it would be a bad departure to head down the route of child pageants where children are judged on their looks.

05/03/2014MM00200Senator Cáit Keane: I welcome the Minister and thank Senator van Turnhout and other Senators for putting this important motion before the House. My Fine Gael colleagues and I are delighted to support it. The Minister has stated that the Government as a whole also supports the motion. I am taking this matter on behalf of Senator Imelda Henry who is unavoidably absent.

I will begin with a quote from Dr. Maria Montessori who said:

Character formation cannot be taught. It comes from experience and not from explana- tion. The child builds his inmost self out of the deeply held impressions he [or she] receives.

What kind of impressions does a child receive from beauty pageants? They are not the kind of impressions we want our children to get. Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell mentioned Wordsworth’s poem The Rainbow.

05/03/2014MM00300Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell: Gerard Manley Hopkins also wrote a poem of that name.

05/03/2014MM00400Senator Cáit Keane: I know the mantra “The child is father of the man”. Maria Montes- sori also said: “It is the child who makes the man, and no man exists who was not made by the 270 5 March 2014 child he once was.” It is true that the experiences of childhood are brought through a person’s life, but the impressions gained from beauty pageants are undesirable.

Development during childhood is so important. Ensuring healthy emotional and psychological development for children should be prioritised by parents, the State and all other stakeholders. The appointment of a Minister for Children and Youth Affairs has shown how seriously the Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald, and the Government are taking the issue. Having a separate Department with responsibility for children has been mentioned throughout this debate.

The sexualisation of children has probably never been more pervasive than it is today with the advent of social media and widespread access to the Internet. Children are often exposed to online material that is unsuitable, which interferes with children’s various stages of development.

The pageant business is the parents’ own choice, however, so they cannot blame the Internet or anything else. Parents have a free choice to do this or not, but they should ask what it is doing to their children. That is the most important question any parent can ask.

Psychologists and development researchers have proposed a number of different theories to describe and explain processes and stages that children go through as they develop. Some psychologists tend to focus on development milestones or specific achievements, and others on specific aspects of child development such as personality, cognition and moral growth.

Many philosophers, including Piaget, Russo, Buckley, Montessori, Erikson and Freud have written about this matter. One small aspect concerns how we can develop and foster interper- sonal relationships. The stage of moral development is focused on living up to social expecta- tions and roles. Consideration must also be given to how choices influence relationships.

Psychologists have written about what pageants do as regards living up to social expecta- tions and social roles. Parents have to make that choice. The child goes through a physical metamorphosis and should be allowed to develop naturally. Children do not need, and should not be exposed to, beauty pageants to make them look different. All stages of a child’s development should be natural. Psychologists have outlined the various stages of such development but I will not go into them now.

The developments are sometimes so pronounced that one might think one was looking at a different child. In changing, children also go through a psychological metamorphosis in the way they learn to interpret the world. What this does to their psychological development has been written about in recent years.

Dr. Montessori used the example of the butterfly changing and growing beautiful naturally. We should let our children do the same. We must differentiate between acting, stage development, development of independence, confidence in partaking in events, and experiences that aid the development of independence and confidence.

I note that the Irish Dancing Commission has banned children from wearing wigs and fake tans. I welcome that. A child of mine won an all-Ireland Irish dancing competition in the years when there were no wigs or make-up. There was nothing other than talent, the preservation of culture and everything that goes with it. The three girls who won the three-handed reel in Irish dancing back then did not have wigs or make-up. Irish dancing should go back to what it was, which involves the preservation of Irish culture. 271 Seanad Éireann I hope that both organisations, the Irish Dancing Commission and An Comhdháil, have banned such things for children up to ten years of age. I could not contact An Comhdháil on the phone when I was trying to research the matter earlier, but I am sure it has done so.

We cannot equate Irish dancing and culture with beauty pageants. I would not like them to get mixed up, but parents have to make that choice. The Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald, is doing a lot, as is the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, who will be introducing the sexual offences Bill later this year. I also wish to compliment the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs on the steps she has taken to curb retailing in this regard.

Evidence suggests that allowing children to compete in beauty pageants is damaging to their health and emotions. Dr. Syd Brown, a child and adolescent psychologist in the USA, affirms: “Not only do children who compete in pageants measure their self-worth by their looks, they are in for a downfall if they do not stay as beautiful when they grow up.”

Many children who compete in beauty pageants and who focus on their looks, are liable to develop emotional problems. Dr. Maria Cartwright, adjunct professor of nutritional science at the University of Arizona, has stated it is not uncommon for teenagers who compete in beauty pageants at very young ages to have eating disorders, a point raised by Senator van Turnhout. While I do not want to scare parents who are going to partake in beauty pageants, and as Sena- tor van Turnhout said, it is not illegal and is a free choice, nonetheless, we should stress that free choice and exploitation are two different things. Free choice is one of the highest of all mental processes. Young children do not differentiate and parents should be educated on how, when and where children can participate. They should ask whether their child has developed the power of control, the power to say “No” and the power to differentiate between exploitation and free choice.

05/03/2014NN00200Acting Chairman (Senator Marie Moloney): The Senator should conclude.

05/03/2014NN00300Senator Cáit Keane: It is such an important issue we could go on forever talking about it. Hopefully, people will listen.

05/03/2014NN00400Senator Sean D. Barrett: I commend Senator van Turnhout for putting down this motion and welcome the Minister’s strong speech on its behalf. I believe we are all at one on this, and certainly all five of the University Senators were honoured to sign the motion when Senator van Turnhout brought it to us.

We have heard all about negative body image being promoted among people who lose in these competitions, as well as about the sexual exploitation of children and the exploitation of children through clothing, make-up and so on, as the Minister has described. Our stand this evening is very important and welcome. It echoes a proud tradition because, when children were being abused and beaten in schools, two Senators, John Boland and Owen Sheehy-Skef- fington, were to the fore in opposing that abuse of children. Too many people in Irish society looked the other way when there were the child abuse scandals that we are now investigating, and about which we are finding out the dreadful things that happened. That is not happening here this evening. A matter has been brought to our attention by Senator van Turnhout and the Minister, and we have reacted in exactly the right way. That is a good night for Seanad Éireann and for young children.

05/03/2014NN00500Senator Aideen Hayden: I would like to thank all of the previous speakers for what have been excellent and thoughtful speeches. In particular, I congratulate the Minister on her speech. 272 5 March 2014 She has brought this debate to another level in looking more specifically at the whole issue of childhood and how it has evolved in the wider society to a point where we now believe and feel we need to protect children and give them a value.

While I do not want to repeat much of what has been said in the debate, I will make a couple of points. Historically, when we look at, for example, the portrayal of children and childhood, an awful lot of what was at stake was the issue of poverty. For example, when children were down in the mines and in the factories, there were many commissions, particularly in the UK, on whether or not the practice should be outlawed. On a number of occasions, outlawing the practice was not successful because the family needed the work of the child, and the argument was made that only the small hands of children, for example, could be put into the looms. There is a real issue about the value of childhood and poverty. The Minister referred to issues of the recognition of childhood in the Victorian era. For example, Queen Victoria herself was per- ceived as being a mother figure, yet we all know her treatment of her own children left a lot to be desired. The reality is it was an era where children were owned by their parents and were the possessions of their parents. Short of killing them in extreme circumstances, there was really nothing a parent could not do to a child.

I was struck by what the Minister said about the role of parents in this context and their responsibility for childhood. I was very struck when she mentioned the fact that, because of child mortality, for example, parents could not afford to care for their children. In a book I read many years ago, Aristocrats, one of the characters was a member of the family that owned Leinster House, the FitzGerald family. It was very clear it was a very difficult issue in that a parent could not really emotionally care for a child before they reached a certain age because there was no guarantee the child would survive.

We have all signed this motion so perhaps the issue of beauty pageants is beyond debate on one level. However, I want to raise the issue of the exercise by children of their free choice. Children are controlled by parents. I have always been very uncomfortable with the idea, for the sake of argument, of children swimming competitively or playing piano competitively at the age of five, six, seven or eight, where they are practising for four, five or six hours a day. That is what we are talking about here - about competition and being the best. To what extent do we try to ensure that children are genuinely exercising free choice when they are engaging in any form of competition, whether it be competition based on their looks, their ability to play a piano, their ability to swim or any other form of competition? We have to be very careful about that.

In regard to child pageants, again we come back to the issue of poverty. From the research I have done on child pageants, principally those in the United States, I believe the vast majority of people involved would not generally be what one would call middle class. I believe there is an issue about poverty, about resources and about education when it comes to issues such as child beauty pageants. I believe, as the motion states, that childhood is time-specific and unique, and we need to be very careful that we allow children that space, and that they exercise their free choice in any area of life, whether that be competition around their looks or any other form of competition.

I congratulate my colleague, Senator van Turnhout, for bringing this motion forward and for her personal stance last September. I also congratulate the hotels that turned down this beauty pageant. We live in tough times and this is a matter of resources, so fair do’s to them. We have a moral duty to children and we have a responsibility to protect them. We are the grown-ups - it is a simple equation. I understand that many parents are justly proud that their children are 273 Seanad Éireann beautiful and they believe they are the most beautiful in the world. However, we need to be clear what we are talking about. It is about competition. We are also very much in the frame where we are putting a premium on youth, and not just youth but younger and younger youth in an aging world. We live in a society where people are living longer - an aging society - yet this premium on youth is a dangerous thing and is not something that should be promoted in any shape or form.

A child beauty pageant is no better than a dog show, in my opinion. It is exactly the same principle. By its very nature, it should not be allowed. It is positively illegal, in my opinion, and should not be happening. I have no issue whatsoever with the idea of outlawing it full stop. We should not even be debating it. As mentioned, the French Senate has made it a criminal offence for anyone under the age of 16 to be entered into such competitions. The organisers of these competitions should also face criminalisation. We have to bear in mind that this is the exploitation of children for the titillation of adults, and there is no other way to put it. I would perhaps go further than the motion has done and say, to be perfectly frank, it is a matter that should be subject to legislation and it should be outlawed.

05/03/2014NN00600Senator Terry Leyden: I commend Senator van Turnhout for highlighting this issue. I believe the Minister will find it rather difficult in so far as legislation is concerned. It is not quite as simple as that. It is easy to ban the pageants and it is obvious they involve the exploitation of young people, with false make-up and so on. It would certainly discourage this competition coming back here again. However, we have to bear in mind the question of beautiful baby competitions at a rural show, for example. That is common practice, but it can be very hurtful to the parents of the babies who are not deemed the most beautiful. In fact, all babies are beautiful. We are talking about infants being paraded in front of judges who decide that one of them is better looking than all the others. Where does one draw the line with this type of thing? We have to work it out carefully and the Minister has a responsibility to look at the overall situation.

05/03/2014OO00200Senator Aideen Hayden: The line I would draw would exclude beautiful baby competitions.

05/03/2014OO00300Senator Terry Leyden: That is fair enough. I assure the Senator that I never entered any of my children in one of those competitions. My own daughters enjoyed participating in Irish dancing competitions. I recall the green skirts and simple white blouses they wore, with no make-up or any of that. They went along to dance and enjoy themselves, not for the competition as such. They received good training and learned skills such as poise. It was all very healthy. The competitions were well organised and there was very little upset. It was easy to see who the good dancers were.

As I said, where does one draw the line? The French have banned children aged under 16 from participating in beauty pageants; the legislation is quite severe in this regard. My view is that it is largely a question of giving guidance. Shirley Temple is regarded as the greatest child actor of all time and she never wore much make-up, or did not appear to in any case. There was no false hair and so on. She was well presented and a great actress. Perhaps she was exploited - I cannot say - but she certainly became a very fine adult and a representative of the United Na- tions. That is one example of somebody who was not affected by the trappings of child fame.

Modern child beauty pageants are another matter. The event that took place in a pub garden in this country last year was reported in the Irish Independent as follows, “A six-year old girl wearing a green bikini and dancing to Feeling Hot Hot Hot drew sharp intakes from breath from 274 5 March 2014 a crowd filled with novice Irish contestants at Ireland’s first Universal Royalty children’s beauty pageant that took place in a ‘secret’ location today.” In fact, it was held in Corrigan’s Kitchen in Castleblayney, County Monaghan. The report went on, “Competitors aged from 18 months to 14 years dressed in everything from bikinis to ballgowns competed in beauty, talent and Irish theme-wear rounds.”

Exploitation of children in this manner is unacceptable and this type of event should not be encouraged. On the contrary, we would discourage parents from getting involved. This debate is helpful because parents will react to the coverage of it and, we would hope, be less likely to participate in such events. The all-party support for the motion is very welcome. I am sure the Minister will take on board all the points raised and give the issue the consideration it deserves. As I said, there is a broader picture at play here and the question to consider is where we should draw the line.

The Irish Dancing Commission has brought forward new rules in regard to costumes and so on, which is welcome. Another speaker suggested that false hair is now prohibited, but I do not believe that is case. It certainly is surprising if it has not been banned, because wigs have nothing to do with the quality of the dancing. I do not understand why the commission did not go a little further in this regard. Another issue is how one differentiates between false tans and “real” tans. How is it possible to tell the difference between a cosmetic tan and a tan that was attained through sunbathing or, even worse, in a tanning salon? The Irish dancing sector has generally conducted itself in an admirable way and there is no question of its right to have dancing competitions. It is a great tradition.

I agree with Senator Hayden about the beautiful baby competitions because they can cause a great deal of hurt. I never did and never would judge one. There is no logic in submitting infants to that type of judgment when they are all, in their parents’ eyes, the most beautiful babies in the world. How can one judge babies against each other? It is not very logical but has been happening in shows around Ireland for a long time. Incidentally, I have also heard of beautiful granny competitions, but that is another matter.

I support the motion and welcome the opportunity it affords for a mature debate. I am not sure, however, whether legislation is the way we should go. There is minimal interest in child beauty pageants in this country and there should be even less after this debate. Legislation in this area would be very difficult to enforce. I do not like the idea of gardaí arriving at an event and arresting parents and organisers and taking them to court. There are enough problems in this country. Having said that, it is well worth highlighting this issue. We must lead by moral example in advising parents, as Mrs. Worthington was advised, not to put their daughters on the stage.

05/03/2014OO00400Senator Eamonn Coghlan: I welcome the Minister to the House. I am pleased to support this motion by Senator Jillian van Turnhout and her Independent colleagues. I speak tonight not just as a Senator but as a father of four and a grandfather of three. I have two beautiful grand- daughters, one aged five and the other who turns two today. They are absolutely gorgeous and when I see them traipsing around the house wearing my wife’s or my daughter’s high-heeled shoes or trying to put make-up all over their faces, I smile at their innocence and beauty.

On the other hand, I am appalled when I see the sexualisation of children through the medium of child beauty pageants. The very idea of dressing an innocent child in sexed-up clothing, high heels, make-up, hair extensions, fake tan and even false teeth to hide their own children’s 275 Seanad Éireann teeth, is wrong. It is disgusting. I often question what our society is coming to and if we have lost the wonderful childhood world of innocence that children are supposed to enjoy as they grow up. Is there not enough pressure on children, particularly teenagers, through sexed-up MTV videos, the various reality television shows and the cyberbullying we know is happening? Television nowadays encourages children to become superstars without going through the necessary work, whether on the stage or in any other walk of life.

Parents who put their children in pageants need to ask themselves why they are depriving those children of a normal childhood. They should ask themselves whether they are exploiting their child for their own benefit. Or are they trying to relive their lives through their children? Senator Hayden mentioned that it is all about competition these days, whether competition in sports or something else. Of course, competition is entirely natural for human beings.

05/03/2014OO00500Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell: I agree.

05/03/2014OO00600Senator Eamonn Coghlan: However, five year old children do not look in the mirror and decide they are more beautiful than their school friends and they should compete with them on that basis. It is the parents exploiting their children who create that competitiveness.

Research tells us that there are several components to sexualisation which set it apart from a healthy sexuality. Sexualisation occurs when a person’s self-esteem comes only from his or her sexual appeal or behaviour, to the exclusion of other characteristics. A report by the American Psychological Association states that a sexuality which is imposed on somebody rather than being undertaken by choice is evidence of sexualisation. Here in Ireland, legal adulthood and the ability to give consent is set at 17 years of age. In the case of child beauty pageants, however, the children’s consenting parents permit them to participate, pay their entry fees, dress them up, train them and allow them to perform on stage in front of judges and an audience. Who are these parents trying to appease? Certainly not normal people. Are they trying to gratify their own egos or do they really believe there is a benefit for their children? If so, I disagree because the people they are trying to appease are paedophiles, the very people from whom we are trying to protect our children.

Worldwide, the children’s pageant industry is worth billions of dollars. Television networks air on-demand shows such as “Toddlers and Tiaras” and “Little Miss Perfect”. The viewership figures for these programmes imply that many adults not only condone these activities but also view children as sexual objects. We must protect our children.

As the Taoiseach stated, we want Ireland to be the best small country in the world in which to do business. We also want Ireland to be the best small country in the world in which to raise children. We must not condone the activities taking place in child pageants. Ireland should adopt the guidelines introduced in France to protect the innocence of childhood. Healthier activities and hobbies should be promoted and we should encourage greater participation in older games, physical activities and sports. I thank the Minister and congratulate Senator van Turnhout on raising this issue in the House.

05/03/2014PP00200Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach agus leis an Aire as ucht a bheith anseo le haghaidh na díospóireachta tábhachtach seo. Tá an-áthas a bheith anseo ag tacú leis an rún thar a bheith tábhachtach. Molaim an Seanadóir van Turnhout agus na Seanadóirí ar fad atá tar éis tacú leis.

Sinn Féin supports the motion calling for a ban on child beauty pageants. These events, 276 5 March 2014 which have their origins in the United States, have evolved to the point where they can be considered to be a very worrying form of child exploitation, if not downright abuse. The first Little Miss America pageant was staged in the 1960s and has developed into an industry that generates €20 billion annually. The lady responsible for the first Irish child beauty pageant in 2013, Annette Williams of the Universal Royalty Beauty pageant, has described her pageants as being a fun, family time and stated they allow contestants to develop individuality, capability, poise and confidence.

There are valid reasons for all of us to be concerned about child pageant competitions as they raise serious issues related to the early sexualisation of very young girls. Dressing young girls in provocative and revealing clothing and altering their appearance with make-up, wigs and jewellery blurs the line between childhood and adulthood and turns children into miniature versions of adult women. The key issue is that adult women have agency. In other words, while there is much that is problematic about the fashion and beauty industry and the pressure to conform it brings to bear on men and especially women, adults are none the less free to make informed decisions. Children, on the other hand, have not yet reached a stage of emotional, intellectual or developmental maturity that allows them to make such decisions. The premature emphasis on appearance for small girls may be detrimental to their long-term mental well-being and development. For example, we know that an excessive emphasis on appearance is not good, even among adults, as it can lead to eating disorders, low self-esteem, a skewed view of one’s worth as a human being and a distorted value system.

On child beauty pageants, David Carey states that “as a psychologist with an interest in children’s development, I think over-emphasis on beauty and feminisation is counter-productive to the development of a girl’s ability to integrate into society as a whole person rather than an object of beauty.” A 2007 study by the American Psychological Association asserted that pageants teach young girls to see themselves as objects to be looked at and evaluated for their appearance.

We know that very young girls have a heightened awareness of body issues, to the extent that the British Journal of Psychology recently reported that half of all six year old children believe they are fat and half have been on a diet by the age of nine. The biggest wish of girls aged between 11 and 17 years is to be thinner. Not long ago, the idea of children being on diets and concerned about body image and looks would have bordered on the bizarre. There is little doubt that the very notion of childhood and what it means to be a child have changed dramatically over a short period.

In a society that places so much importance on physical attractiveness, girls internalise the message that looks and appearance are more important than virtually everything else. They are more important than being a good camogie player or fast runner or being kind and compassion- ate, funny or a good story teller. As responsible adults and legislators, we have a duty to do everything in our power to reverse this state of affairs. We must send a clear and strong message that our children are valuable in and of themselves. Childhood is not for sale to the fashion and cosmetics industries or unscrupulous adults with dubious intentions. Dressing children up in adult make-up and clothes robs them of their childhood and the time to grow and evolve, at their own pace, into caring and decent adults. As we all know, beauty is skin deep and not a prerequisite for a happy or well-lived life.

Sinn Féin is pleased to support the motion. We endorse the values and aspirations set out in the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. Táimid an-sásta go bhfuil tacaíocht 277 Seanad Éireann leathan ag an ráiteas seo agus ag an díospóireacht anseo um thráthnóna sa Seanad. Táimid thar a bheith sásta tacú leis.

05/03/2014PP00300Senator Mary Ann O’Brien: I salute Senator Jillian van Turnhout for her brilliance in introducing this all-party motion. I thank the Minister, Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell and all the previous speakers for their contributions to the debate. I could not agree more with them. The objectification of children is a disturbing subject and child beauty pageants objec- tify children. Childhood is the most precious time in life. I am not certain if the legislation to which Senator Eamonn Coghlan referred was passed in France. The Minister stated she was not prepared to go as far as France as gone. I ask her to consider the introduction of legislation on this issue.

I do not agree with the comment that parents have freedom of choice in his matter. The job of parents is to protect the innocence of their children and help them grow from childhood to adulthood. It is not their job to bring them to pageants. I also disagree with Senator Hayden’s comment that pageants are similar to dog shows. While I hate dog and puppy shows, dogs do not return from a show with low self-esteem or body image issues or wondering whether they are good enough, nor do dogs acquire eating disorders. Unlike dogs, children are conscious human beings with incredible intelligence. It is wrong to make them wear padded bras and high heels or apply fake tan and dreadful make-up.

I have here a paper from Professor Martina Cartright who has done a thesis on child beauty pageants in the United States. She make the interesting point that adults are driven primarily by the social or financial gains earned by their children’s accomplishment, regardless of the risk involved for the child. She estimates that the industry is worth €5 billion in the United States alone. Professor Cartright refers to “achievement by proxy distortion”, a new concept to me, which occurs when parents struggle to differentiate between their need and their child’s need in order to make themselves feel good and successful. They may engage in risky behaviours, objectification or activities that may harm their child, all of which the researcher witnessed at the pageants she attended. Professor Cartright believes that the emphasis on physical perfection may put young girls at risk of adult body dissatisfaction and potential eating disorders. She also expresses concern that beauty competitions sexualise young girls by encouraging them to look like grown-ups. She recalled, in particular, a young contestant wearing a Playboy bunny costume being carried on to the stage by her father dressed as Hugh Hefner. I find it difficult to say that in the Chamber. Children who win competitions are frequently fed high energy drinks and sweets with a high sugar content, known as “pageant crack”, to keep them awake for the crown- ing ceremony. Need I say more? Professor Cartright has produced a very interesting paper.

On the wider issue of the sexualisation of children, some of the children’s clothes being sold by retailers are getting worse every year as stores make more and more money from them. Parents are faced with pester power where children demand certain clothes because their school friends have them. While I do not know what is the solution to this problem, we must start to address it by educating parents.

With International Women’s Day approaching, people are discussing the issue of gender. I had coffee earlier in the House with a young, single solicitor. She expressed concern that her younger sisters are beginning to dress more and more inappropriately to feel attractive and good about themselves. We must be careful because we are taking a backward step.

Senator van Turnhout and I feel the same way about a particular matter, namely, educating 278 5 March 2014 parents about giving their children smartphones or tablets. Again, it is a case that children must have these devices and essentially we are handing them toys which are lethal weapons. The Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Rabbitte, is running a consultation process on appropriate Internet content at present. The report relating to that process will be published in May and I am of the view that we should engage in a debate on it at that point. That is another problem outside of pageants. We need to find a way to control the amount of inappropriate information that is available on the Internet. Children have easy access to such information.

05/03/2014QQ00200Senator Paschal Mooney: I echo the sentiments expressed by Senators on all sides and I applaud Senator van Turnhout on the initiative she has taken in respect of this matter. I welcome the Minister and the comments she made. I congratulate her on the initiative she took prior to Christmas in respect of Retail Ireland. I presume this initiative is similar to the Mumsnet.com website in the UK, which goes by the tagline “by parents for parents”. Mumsnet.com started a “Let Girls be Girls” campaign in the UK in early 2010 which “grew from Mumsnetters’ concern that an increasingly sexualised culture was dripping, toxically, into the lives of children”. It is stated on Mumsnet.com that:

The campaign aims to curb the premature sexualisation of children by asking retailers to commit not to sell products which play upon, emphasise or exploit their sexuality. Earlier this year, the campaign was extended to tackle lads’ mags, calling on newsagents and super- markets not to display them in children’s sight.

I am not sure whether the latter forms part of the Minister’s initiative or whether the focus is just on clothes. Perhaps it is something which might be borne in mind.

A number of statements on Mumsnet.com reflect what Senator Mary Anne O’Brien said. For example, one lady, Justine, said the following:

This is not about prudishness or hankering after some rose-tinted picture of childhood. It’s about millions of parents - and many who aren’t parents - knowing in their bones that there is something wrong with a society that tries to sell seven year old girls 4 inch heels, or t shirts emblazoned with “future porn star”.

As parents we’re told - often by our own kids - that we’ve just got to live with it, that the world has changed. But we don’t have to - and our Let Girls be Girls campaign, the Bailey review [which was carried out in the UK and to which I will refer later] and the new retail code of conduct show the power ordinary people can wield when they speak out forcefully on forums like Mumsnet against the pornification of our culture.

Parent power really lies at the heart of this matter. One American psychologist is on record as stating that if parents did not go into stores and buy these types of products, there would be no market for them and if there is no market, there can be no product. Parents have a responsibility in respect of this matter and they cannot merely expect the Government or the Minister to act on their behalf. Responsibility begins at home with parents. Senator Mary Anne O’Brien is quite right to state that in America, where a subculture relating to this exists, many of the instances are of a proxy nature and involve parents. One particularly gruesome instance in recent years involved an eight year old in San Francisco whose mother had wanted to be a beauty pageant queen but had failed in her quest. She channelled all of her frustrated ambition in the direction of her child and even gave her botox injections. I am glad that San Francisco’s social

279 Seanad Éireann services department took the child into care. In my opinion, that parent should not have been anywhere near a child. There are many similar instances.

There is a website in the US, Toddlers & Tiaras, which is about the beauty pageant business and which the Minister should visit. There is a section on the website which is devoted to showing excerpts of the ten worst or most gross things which happened on the reality TV show of the same name. I was struck not by the exploitation of these children - some of whom were no more than two years of age and others of whom were still only babes in arms - and their being dressed up but rather by the reaction of their parents. I refer to their whooping and shouting “Good on you” and “Doesn’t she look so beautiful”. I thought, “What a sick society”. Perhaps that to which I refer would be replicated here if we allowed it. When one of these pageants was run in Ireland last year, parents actually turned up to it with their children. One can blame the organisers and shout and roar about the hotel involved but the bottom line is that Irish parents attended the pageant with their daughters. These were not Americans, some of whom are mad. What a strange society obtains in America, particularly in the context of the number of subcul- tures that exist within it. We have a similar society here, albeit it on a far smaller scale.

If we, as legislators, the Minister or the Government can do anything about this matter, then our focus should be on the responsibility of parents. This matter should not be thrown back to the Government in order that it might legislate in respect of it. In that context, it should not be necessary to legislate.

Senator Ó Clochartaigh and I must have come across the same material when carrying out our research on this matter. The Senator referred to a 2007 study compiled by the American Psychological Association. I also wish to place on record something which that organisation noted, namely, that “sexualization has negative effects in a variety of domains, including cog- nitive functioning, physical and mental health, sexuality and attitudes and beliefs”. The study also found that some of the possible ongoing negative effects include “low self esteem, poor academic performance, depression, and eating disorders such as anorexia”. A study carried out in 2008 by Girlguiding UK and the Mental Health Foundation found that premature sexualisation and pressure to grow up too quickly are two “key influences” in the anxiety felt by girls. According to Dr. Andrew McCulloch, chief executive of the Mental Health Foundation, “Girls and young women are being forced to grow up at an unnatural pace in a society that we, as adults, have created and it’s damaging their emotional well-being ... We are creating a generation under stress.” The current generation of adults has created this society or it has at least watched as it has developed.

I accept that the Minister may be fully aware of them but I take this opportunity to place on record some of the recommendations contained in the Bailey review. It is stated on Mumsnet. com that:

The Review makes further recommendations about the exposure of children to sexualised imagery. It proposes that explicit ads, music videos and TV programmes - described as a “wallpaper of sexual images that surround children” [that is a pretty apt way of putting it and one can even create from it one’s own mental image] should be subject to tighter control, with age-ratings on music videos, and stricter enforcement of the television watershed.

It recommends that outdoor advertising featuring sexual imagery should not be displayed in areas near schools or playgrounds, and that parents should have a one-stop portal to enable them to complain about products, ads or services more easily. The review also proposes that internet 280 5 March 2014 users should have to make “an active choice over whether they allow adult content or not”. I agree that people who use the Internet should be obliged to make that choice. If that happens, then perhaps those involved will stop and think.

05/03/2014QQ00300Senator Mary Moran: I welcome the Minister. I echo the many tributes paid to Senator van Turnhout in the context of her tabling of this motion. When she e-mailed Senators last week, I replied immediately because this is a matter about which I, as a parent, feel strongly. I have found it purely sickening to listen to some aspects of this debate, particularly in the context of children being exploited. We often discuss child abuse and unfit parents. In my view, those who subject their children to pageants such as that held last September are guilty of child abuse. They are taking away the childhood innocence of their offspring.

The motion states that childhood is a time-specific and unique period in a person’s development and that there is a distinct space between it and adulthood. That issue lies at the heart of the motion. There is a veritable laundry list of events and occurrences which can tarnish or ruin a person’s childhood. Senator Mooney made a very valid point, namely, that it is the duty of parents - first and foremost - to look after their children.

7 o’clock

We cannot blame anyone else. As legislators, we can help to frame matters and put legislation in place to stop it happening. As parents, however, we are the people who primarily educate our children and teach them right from wrong. We must protect our children from unnecessary harm to their development and self esteem. Without question, to judge a seven year old on her physical characteristics or swimwear is an unnecessary harm.

Many Members have referred to the programme “Toddlers & Tiaras”. I have never seen the programme but I have seen it advertised on Sky. One must first look at the American shows that put this out there. We can blame television stations and acknowledge that so much of what happens here has been influenced by American television. People have mentioned fake tan and the other things that go on. A reference was made to more extreme parents who subject their little girls to Botox, facial threading - I do not even know what that is - waxing, hair and nail extensions and fake teeth. I find the following obscene in relation to “Toddlers & Tiaras”. The Irish Examiner article reads:

Is it any wonder that the children on Toddlers and Tiaras sometimes have dramatic melt- downs? If you as a small child were forced to wear false breasts to perform as Dolly Par- ton, an approximation of Madonna’s conical breasts costume or Julia Roberts Hollywood Hooker costume a la Pretty Woman.

It is completely offensive to young innocent girls. It is dreadful. I note that programme might be extreme. A child should look like a child.

I welcome the endorsement of children’s wear guidelines which the Minister issued in June 2012, as well as the Irish Dancing Commission’s rules prohibiting make-up and artificial tanning products for the under 10s. Perhaps, this does not go far enough. A child of ten is not old enough to be wearing make up. I was years older than that and was still afraid to appear with any kind of make-up on. While it is a start, we could consider going further. I note that tomorrow night a programme on Irish dancing will be broadcast called “Jigs & Wigs”. Looking at the previews for it, it raises this whole question again. One might not think so to look at me, but I used to do my fair share of Irish dancing and loved it. It was long before the days of wigs. 281 Seanad Éireann The most difficult thing we faced was to obtain Carrickmacross lace for our costumes. If one had that, one was made up. The focus was on footwork and skill. I do not know how true it is, but I spoke to someone in the context of the approach of this debate and was told the person had heard that sometimes a dancer’s hands can be sewn into a dancing costume to ensure they do not lift their hands while dancing. Things like this are crazy.

First holy communion is another area where things have gone a little askew. I have mentioned before stories of parents putting fake tan on children making their first communion and getting their nails done. It is to lose the plot of what it is all about. I remember a teacher friend of mine telling me about a child who did not turn up at the church. When she turned up at school on the Monday, she said her mother said they were too late when they got out of the hairdressers so they just went straight to the hotel. Is it not sad that it was that way? As far as the child was concerned, she had made her communion because she had a white dress, got her hair done and had a fake tan.

I fail to understand what can be gained by having small children and adolescents compete against each other in superficial categories based on appearance. Looking at one of the web- sites, one sees a competition involving a baby pageant with categories including formal wear, beauty and overall appearance, swimwear and overall appearance, creativity and personality. What personality can a baby display? As a mother I acknowledge that we all think our children are the most beautiful things in the world. To us, they are number one and no one has any right to say that one baby is more beautiful than another. The whole thing is ridiculous. In America, pageants are multi-million dollar activities. We spoke earlier about France and the ban in place there. When one considers that as different a country as Russia also has a ban in place, it is very telling. These countries are all so different, yet they are united on the ban on child pageants and the imposition of fines on those who attempt to organise them.

In the modern world, children have enough worries, including difficulties with friendships, boyfriends and girlfriends, and arguments with parents. Children have new and heightened worries and difficulties involving social media, drugs, alcohol, sex and other issues. If we can remove unnecessary harms, we should. Every child has a right to be a child.

05/03/2014RR00200Senator Jim Walsh: Ba mhaith liom fáilte a chur roimh an Aire. I commend Senator Jil- lian van Turnhout for tabling the motion. I am happy to join everyone else in supporting it.

As Senator Mary Ann O’Brien said, there is an unwarranted emphasis on appearance which, at a young age, can detract from the development of the whole person. I recall coming across a card in my mother’s bedroom when she died which stated that beauty is not beholden with the eye but with the soul. It encapsulated the way we should think about each other and ourselves and, specifically, about children. I join Senator Mary Ann O’Brien with regard to looking seriously at the French model, which bans pageants and provides for fines of up to €30,000 and terms of imprisonment of up to two years. That arose apparently because of the sexualisation of children in France which was prompted by a fashion shoot in French Vogue magazine. It showed young girls posing in heavy make up. I recommend to the Minister that she give serious consideration to enacting that. It should lead to a surplus of wigs which the Cathaoirleach and I would be glad to accept.

Childhood is a time of tremendous innocence, but it is increasingly difficult for parents to safeguard their children and ensure they have that innocence. There is so much exploitation, consumerism and sexualisation that parents face a serious challenge and difficulty. Senator 282 5 March 2014 Moran rightly mentioned holy communion, and I include confirmation. The thrust is to make children look really adult in a very sexual way. I am glad to see that many dioceses have taken the initiative to criticise and prevent that from happening, which is important. I do not agree with Senator Aideen Hayden, although I may well have misinterpreted her. Sport, be it competitive or otherwise, is very good for children. She mentioned swimming and I include camogie, Gaelic football and, indeed, boxing. I refer to the iconic figure of Katie Taylor. My memory still allows me to go back many years to when I was young. We could not wait to get on the hurling field or the Gaelic football field. In many ways we learned so much from playing sport. It was healthy physical exercise but it also promoted mental well-being and taught us teamwork and how to interact with our peers. It gave us values and experiences to last all our lives and which served us very well.

Parents face challenges, as has been said by previous speakers. Senator Mary Ann O’Brien and Senator Mary Moran specifically emphasised this point. It is shocking to see the material on the Internet to which children are exposed. I read an appalling story yesterday of a 12 year-old boy who raped his seven year-old sister following his viewing of pornography in the company of some of his friends. I think this happened in the United States. That is an appalling situation and it shows that we need to get to grips with the Internet. While it is a medium for great good, it is deficient in many ways.

Pageants are not the only issues that need to be examined with regard to the sexualisation of children. Like many people I followed the controversy surrounding Federal Law No. 135-FZ introduced in Russia. It was designed to protect young people from any form of sexualisation. Stephen Fry took control of it and it was used very strongly against Russia. I have read the Russian Act. All it does is to build on an existing law in order to protect children against any form of exploitation or anything that would affect them. I can provide more information on the topic to anyone interested.

I am pleased this motion has cross-party support. I suggest that the House should table a cross-party motion on what I consider to be most demeaning of the status of women - gendercide. It is practised in many countries. It has happened in Britain and in the United States. Nothing abrogates the campaign for women’s equality more than gendercide. This may be a challenging view for those who regard themselves as liberals but it is a fundamental issue. If we are genuinely serious about such issues, this House has a good role to play in tabling a motion to which all sides of the House could subscribe.

05/03/2014SS00200Senator Ivana Bacik: I welcome the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Fitzgerald to the House. I commend Senator van Turnhout and her colleagues for putting forward this important motion which has produced an excellent debate. I am very happy to support the motion and to line up with everyone else in the House in support of it. We are united on this issue. The Minister has spoken eloquently about the culture of co-operation which is such an important part of making Ireland a cold house, as she described it, for this sort of child beauty pageant. Even that phrase, “beauty pageant”, is hard to say because it sounds completely wrong to be speaking about children in the context of beauty pageants. We are all united on this motion which is in keeping with the notion of human rights for children. We united in support of the children referendum to amend the Constitution to insert recognition of rights for children, so too, we should unite on this motion. This debate shows the Seanad at its best.

Other speakers have spoken at length of the context and we are all conscious of the company from Texas which sought to run these pageants in Ireland. When I carried out a search of the 283 Seanad Éireann media reports I noted that as recently as January the company was still saying it plans to run a pageant. It has not given up, although last November it said it would have a pageant at Christ- mas but this may have been a publicity spin.

Senator van Turnhout spoke about the high level of public support she has received for her stance. In her view, legislation might not be the appropriate manner to deal with this issue, that a legislative ban might not be appropriate. This is an important point. The Minister spoke about the difficulty with the legislative proposal in France which did not pass in all Houses of the French Parliament because of the real difficulty about how to define what is being banned. We would have the same difficulty. We all know what we mean by child beauty pageants and the Texan company falls squarely within that category but there might well be other events or companies seeking to fall outside of a definition through clever means. If we can proceed with the sort of great public support for these pageants not to be held in Ireland, if we can proceed on the basis that hotels will not welcome the business and if we can proceed with the rulings from Coimisiún le Rincí Gaelacha, this might be a better way forward. However, I welcome the Minister’s announcement that she has commissioned research on this matter because it would be helpful to know how other countries have dealt with it and how they have approached the expression of the condemnation of these pageants.

Like other speakers I commend the Irish Hotels Federation and the hotels which refused to host the events last year. I also commend the An Coimisiún le Rincí Gaelacha for the ruling on the use of make up. I share Senator Moran’s view that ten years of age seems very young. I contacted the commission and it has explained the rationale. The ruling makes a significant difference. It also pointed out to me that a number of CLRG feiseanna on both sides of the Atlantic were held last weekend, just after the ruling came into effect, and the motion was fully adhered to. This demonstrates the effectiveness of this type of voluntary approach.

I refer to two broader themes which have been raised during the debate. Senator van Turn- hout, and the Minister alluded to the first theme, as did Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell who spoke very eloquently about the disappearance of childhood. The Minister also spoke about the theft of childhood. All of us share a concern about the increasing sexualisation of childhood, the pseudo-adulthood, as Senator O’Donnell described it. We are very conscious of campaigns in England to prevent inappropriate use of logos and clothing styles for children. The Minister spoke about Retail Ireland’s very welcome guidelines which are voluntary but very effective. I have a copy of the children’s wear guidelines which are admirable, instructing that slogans and imagery on clothing must be age-appropriate, not sexually suggestive, not demeaning, deroga- tive or containing political slogans or images that could be interpreted as such, that slogans deemed humorous should be tested and careful consideration should be given to what could be described as gender-specific slogans. I refer to the campaign about overly-gendered toys and clothes. On a lighter note, I refer to the young girl in England who wrote to Lego saying that she no longer wanted it to market the style of Lego friends and Lego for girls. My own daughters are big fans of “Star Wars” Lego which is gender-neutral. These campaigns are in keeping with the general theme of bringing childhood to an end too quickly.

As the Minister stated, childhood has only relatively recently been extended to age 18. The Constitutional Convention heard a powerful argument from a social worker who spoke against lowering the voting age to 16. His argument was that the social work profession and many others had fought very hard in recent decades to ensure that 18 years would become the age of adulthood and that childhood was not ended prematurely in any legal sense. I have recently written to the Minister for Justice and Equality to ask for a change in the current law which al- 284 5 March 2014 lows a legal marriage to be contracted at the age of 16 in certain circumstances. The legal age at which people should be allowed to marry should be 18 years as a minimum. We should not continue to allow the loophole that allows for marriage at 16 years. The provision is ripe for exploitation. I refer to a well-publicised recent High Court case in which the judge expressed concern about this exemption in the law whereby marriage can be legally contracted at 16 years.

The motion also raises issues about the treatment of girls in particular. The Irish Family Planning Association and the all-party Oireachtas group on reproductive health are hosting an exhibition which shows graphically in visual form the terrible oppression of women and young girls that still happens in many developing countries around the world, through practices such as female genital mutilation. It is appropriate during international women’s week to remember that broader context for this motion. This very distasteful child beauty pageant is but one expression of oppression and discrimination against girls which means that girls have much less likelihood of access to education, to work and health rights, as their male counterparts. It is a timely motion and I am delighted to support it.

05/03/2014TT00200Senator Jillian van Turnhout: I thank everyone wholeheartedly. I thank the Minister for her input and for participating so actively in the debate. I thank my Independent colleagues for giving up our group’s time for this motion. It shows their strength of feeling. In particular, I thank Senator O’Donnell, who seconded the motion.

It is unique to see unanimous support in the Seanad. It is heartening and empowering that, despite our ideological differences, we are able to stand together, speak out for children and protect the sanctity of childhood. As Senator Barrett stated, we are as one.

It is important to remember the right to play under Article 31 of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. Play is a core foundation block of childhood. Senator O’Donnell stated ar- ticulately that child beauty pageants were adult play, not child play. She also referred to power and control over children’s play. The Minister’s statement that, once stolen, childhood is gone forever is true.

Senator Bacik added information to the debate on Irish dancing. When I first heard about the make-up ban for children aged under ten years, I was a bit dubious, but it is a major step forward. This worldwide movement will make a significant difference. An Comhdháil has in place a similar ban to the Irish Dancing Commission’s for the bun and tús grades of 12 years and under. This covers tanning, tinted moisturiser, make-up and false eyelashes. However, it has not banned wigs. I can partly understand. Little girls would be sleeping for the night wearing rollers, whereas a wig is something that can be put on and off. Perhaps we could debate that, but the commission is taking steps in the right direction. These changes are heartening.

It is important to note that one cannot compare a competition such as, for example, playing the piano with child beauty pageants. They are totally different and it is a spurious comparison, as Senator O’Donnell stated. One is a skill, art form or expression whereas the other is sexual, sensual and leering at a young age. There is no discernible skill in child beauty pageants. They are problematic and contrary to the protection of childhood. As we approach International Women’s Day, these beauty pageants are a step backwards in our battle for equality.

Several people have referred to France. The law there is progressing, but it has evolved in way that has revealed the difficulties. France is now discussing 13 year olds and younger and reducing the proposed fine. The matter returns to the French Senate on 17 April. I hope that

285 Seanad Éireann an Irish law is not necessary, but if it is, we have unanimous support in the Seanad and we will lead the charge. I hope that common sense prevails.

The research that the Minister announced is welcome. We will be armed and ready. I hope that our debate sends out a clear message. We have unanimous support. This is a call to action. I hope that the Dáil will pass a similar motion so that we can show that both Houses are as one.

The board of the Irish Hotels Federation has passed a motion to oppose child beauty pageants. The hotels turned away business. I call on parents and the general public to tell their local hotels that they do not support child beauty pageants. People must be firm in their resolve.

The Minister referred to guidelines on the responsible retailing of children’s wear. If people have complaints, they should make them. We all have a role to play in protecting childhood.

I offer my heartened thanks. We are as one. Tonight, we have sent a clear, strong and unified message to the effect that there is no place in Ireland for child beauty pageants.

05/03/2014TT00300An Cathaoirleach: Does the Minister wish to respond for two or three minutes?

05/03/2014TT00400Minister for Children and Youth Affairs (Deputy Frances Fitzgerald): I thank the Cathaoirleach for giving me the opportunity. My response should be self-evident. I welcome Senators’ comments. This has been an interesting debate and has sent a clear message about the House’s opinions on this issue as well as on the importance of protecting childhood in the broadest sense. It was relatively recent in our history that we started valuing childhood. It would be a shame to see it lost so quickly. As Senator van Turnhout stated, Ireland has an opportunity to send out a clear message about our opinions on beauty pageants.

Senator after Senator outlined their opinions on this issue. They made it clear that they view the child beauty pageant business as unacceptable. We should make Ireland a cold place for beauty pageants. The US research has been cited. Subjecting young girls to beauty pageants can destroy their self-esteem, make their adult lives more difficult and lead to anorexia and serious problems in their psychological development. We live in quite a sexist society. We want to protect young girls and boys from premature sexualisation. Sending out a strong and clear message from the House will make an important statement. I hope it can be taken seriously by the media and society as they take note of the debate.

We all know that there is a great deal of pressure on parents that can be difficult to resist. That Senator van Turnhout, many of her colleagues and Deputies and I spoke out about beauty pageants when they tried to start in Ireland provided support to parents, in that they did not feel alone in their opinions on this matter. Parents can feel isolated. It is important that we pull back the curtain and give them more support in expressing their opinions and taking action. Various routes have been suggested by Senators.

The research will be helpful. I understand that the French legislation has run into difficulties, but we will follow that situation with interest and review other countries’ initiatives. Leg- islating for this can prove difficult. At one extreme - some might not consider it extreme - this can be considered a child protection issue. Senator Leyden referred to a case in the US in which a mother using botox inappropriately on a young child was regarded as a child protection issue. At the extreme, this is clearly a child protection issue, although some Senators have expressed their opinion that it is a child protection issue right along the continuum. That would be an interesting topic for debate. 286 5 March 2014 Even if we approach this matter via legislation, a great deal can be done in the pre-legislative phase in terms of information, education and support from all of the stakeholders, as Sena- tor van Turnhout stated in her opening remarks. Many stakeholders in the community must be clear about their opinions on this topic.

I am pleased that the Seanad is giving out such a strong and clear message. I hope that this debate will be followed by initiatives undertaken by the many players in this field. We can never underestimate the power of having a debate such as this one and being clear in our views.

Question put and agreed to.

05/03/2014TT00600An Cathaoirleach: When is it proposed to sit again?

05/03/2014TT00700Senator Ivana Bacik: Tomorrow at 10.30 a.m.

05/03/2014UU00100Adjournment Matters

05/03/2014UU00150Mental Health Services Provision

05/03/2014UU00300Senator Mary Moran: I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Lynch, for taking this Ad- journment matter. Previously, I have raised the issue of the lack of a child psychiatrist for children with an intellectual disability in the mental health services in Louth. I have been perturbed lately to find that there is no child psychiatrist. I was in touch with the HSE and I was informed that interviews have taken place for the position but the executive has been unable to fill the post. I find it baffling and concerning that there is no child psychiatrist for children with an intellectual disability for the entire area.

Recently, I worked on the case of a constituent who had a child in need of such services, as are many other children according to reports from the disability services in Dundalk. They have several children in need of these services but they have been unable to provide them. More concerning was the fact that as the child in question was 16 years of age, paediatric services refused to consider him. Child and adolescent mental health services, CAMHS, have refused to consider him since he is over 16 years of age. They have also said they do not have a child psychiatrist to deal with intellectual disability issues. When the child was brought to the general practitioner, the parents were told that the doctor could provide sedation. I find it concerning - this ties into the second part of the Adjournment matter I have tabled - that there are no services, there appears to be no services or else there is a difficulty in getting services for children with an intellectual disability, especially in this age group.

The more I examine the matter, the more it appears that one Department is saying that people should go somewhere else and that it is not its responsibility. It is as if a magic switch comes on when children reach the age of 16 years. Exemptions and certain circumstances should be taken into consideration when children approach this magic age of 16 years. I had heard and read about this milestone but where are these children to go? We cannot turn around to parents and say we are sorry but that they should take their children home and do nothing. What if there are other family members or other people who need to be taken into consideration? It is 287 Seanad Éireann important that the services are provided.

Having said that, I realise that disability services in the area are good and seem to be providing support for the people who need them. I have never heard anything but praise for the people who work there. However, I believe this needs to be examined as a matter of urgency for the many parents who do not have a voice or a place where they can raise the issue. I am raising the issue with the Minister of State tonight in the hope that she can do something for them.

When parliamentary questions are tabled Deputies get the same answer all the time to the effect that it is a matter for the HSE or that the Minister will refer the matter to the HSE. I spoke with the disability officer last week and I was told there was nothing the executive could do. To me, that is not an answer. We cannot simply sit back and say there is nothing we can do about it and decide that is it until it comes knocking on our door. I hope the Minister of State will give me some positive news this evening.

05/03/2014UU00400Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Kathleen Lynch): Before I give Senator Moran the official reply I wish to emphasise that we have got money for the past two years and that a further €20 million has been allocated this year for additional development funding for mental health. I discussed the matter with some people in advance of the allocation this year. The two areas where we knew we needed to work on this year with the additional money were the areas of old age psychiatry and intellectual disability. This is because if children or young adults have an intellectual disability it does not protect them from difficulties with mental health. Indeed, sometimes there is a crossover and we need a specialised area to deal with that.

I thank the Senator for raising this topic today. The Government has prioritised reform of mental health services in line with A Vision for Change and it is committed in particular to the delivery of more and better quality care in the community. This includes enhancing and stream- lining, as appropriate, service interactions for under 18s between the mainstream mental health and disability care programmes.

Total HSE mental health funding in 2014 is in the region of €765 million but that does not include the development money. This reflects the additional funding of €90 million together with approximately 1,100 new posts provided over the past three years to modernise our services. Primarily, the modernisation has focused on the following: strengthening community mental health teams for adults and children; enhancing specialist community mental health services for older people with a mental illness, including services for those with an intellectual disability and mental illness; and upgrading forensic mental health services in line with A Vi- sion for Change.

The Senator raised another important point. We have held discussions with CAMHS for the past two years in respect of children between the ages of 16 and 18 years. We cannot possibly say to people, whether they have a disability or otherwise, that somehow or other they do not exist because they happen to be in that age bracket. I have been assured that this age cohort is now going up to 17 years with a view to it going up to 18 years in subsequent years on the back of the additional resources we have provided.

The recent establishment of a new mental health management structure within the HSE has been designed to bring greater clarity to services, including multidisciplinary care at national and local levels. We have given greater recognition to the fact that child and adolescent mental

288 5 March 2014 health services, in both policy and practical terms, will inevitably have a role in some cases, at least in cases of difficult diagnoses, and in terms of specialist episodic treatment of acute mental disorders. This is a specific implementation requirement of A Vision for Change.

In regard to the issue raised by the Senator, the HSE has indicated that until last year, there was no dedicated service available in County Louth in mental health for either adults or children with mental health issues and an intellectual disability. Notwithstanding the lack of services available locally, there were none the less some supports from child and adolescent mental health services, and as the Senator rightly pointed out, voluntary organisations and disability services have been doing their best. These in turn were supported by a consultant psychiatrist providing two sessions per week. That is clearly not enough.

In terms of new service development posts approved for 2013, two teams, each led by a consultant psychiatrist were approved for the north east for adults, and this service is currently being established. The recruitment process to fill these posts is progressing. In addition, the local HSE is exploring the question of appointing a CAMHS consultant with a special interest in intellectual disability for children. This proposal is at a very early stage and the Department of Health has asked to be kept informed of developments on this matter. The HSE national service plan for 2014, including associated operational plans for regional and local services, commits to a number of key deliverables for this year. As I have indicated on many occasions in the past, early, appropriate and effective intervention is key, coupled with a strong recovery-based approach for young people with mental health issues.

By raising this issue tonight, the Senator will again put the focus back on that service. We must ensure that when an adult with an intellectual disability has a difficulty with mental health, there is a service available to him or her. I will once again take this up with the director as appointed.

05/03/2014VV00200Senator Mary Moran: I have the height of respect for the work that the Minister of State has been doing. However, I can only be honest and say that I am completely disappointed with this response. Saying that progression is in at an early stage is fine, but how long more will that take for the 16 year old child? The psychiatrist who was there retired a year ago. He was an adult psychiatrist who kindly took an issue and dealt with disability services for children.

I was told last Friday, following the report back from CAMHS, that there is nothing that can be done for that child because he is 16. It is like a magic number and services are cut off after that age. The more I delve into it, the more parents and children I have seen. There was a dreadful case before Christmas and we cannot afford to let this go. The centre for excellence is in Drogheda in County Louth. A new mental health unit will open up in Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital, which is brilliant, but something has to be done and I plead with the Minister of State tonight to take on board all the children with an intellectual disability, no matter what age they are. This is such a serious matter. I have the height of respect for the work done by the Minister of State, but I will be back and I will keep pushing this.

05/03/2014VV00300Deputy Kathleen Lynch: We cannot allow that gap to remain. I will be pursuing this and I appreciate the Senator raising the issue. It gives me the insight in a small area with very few people, but people who none the less are important to us. I will be raising this issue with the people responsible.

05/03/2014VV00400Senator Mary Moran: I cannot get an answer as to how many child psychiatrists there are.

289 Seanad Éireann If the Minister of State could get that answer, I would appreciate it.

05/03/2014VV00450Human Rights Issues

05/03/2014VV00500Senator Denis O’Donovan: A number of people and organisations have been on to me about the persecution of Christians throughout the world. In Ireland, it is often said we are not a tolerant society, but by and large, we respect the constitutional right of people to practise their religion. In countries such as Syria, Iran, Iraq and Turkey, and many parts of Africa that are predominantly Muslim, with which I do not have a problem, the persecution of Christians is a huge issue. I am not talking about the Catholic ideology. It could be Protestant, Methodist, Presbyterian and other denominations of Christianity where Christ is the centre of their adora- tion and adulation.

It particularly bothers me that recently in Syria, a bishop from a Christian minority was taken out and shot. In Turkey, which is primarily an Islamic country - that is fair enough, that is their view - their tolerance for Christianity and any Christian churches is seriously absurd. None the less, there is a huge lobby, led particularly by the Americans, that Turkey should join Europe as an extension to the EU. While this Christian persecution goes on, we should have grave reservations. Organisations such as Church in Chains and others have raised this. They have met the Turkish ambassador to Ireland and tried to explain this to him. Turkey is a Muslim country with about 80 million people. I remember being at a diplomatic conference in which the Americans wanted Turkey to join Europe. Is that because it is a useful centre between Iran, Iraq, the Middle East and the Far East in which the Americans can have a European base?

If it happened in this country that a Muslim or any other minority religion was being abused, there would be great controversy. I am not in any way a holy Joe, but in many countries across the world, including in Africa, Asia and in places like Syria, Iran, Iraq and Turkey, there is ongoing persecution of Christians. People who purport to be of a Christian denomination and who support the view that Christ was a saviour on Earth will be crucified, to use the pun.

With St. Patrick’s Day coming up, we should be sending the message around the world that in Ireland, the freedom to practise religion is the norm and that other countries should respect our views as well.

05/03/2014VV00600Deputy Kathleen Lynch: I would like to thank the Senator for raising this issue, which I am taking on behalf of the Minister of State, Deputy Paschal Donohoe. I could not agree more with the Senator. Intolerance has probably caused more wars than anything else in the world. I thank him for taking the time to consider this issue, which has become a more pressing matter in recent years.

The Middle East is home to some of the world’s most ancient Christian denominations. It is not the case that Christians in Syria, Iran or Iraq are generally unable to practice their faith. In fact, all three countries have traditionally been noted for an officially tolerant approach. Re- grettably, however, there has been a significant reduction in the numbers of Christians in the region over recent years, as the political turmoil across much of the Middle East has heightened concerns about the safety of Christians across the region. The descent of Syria into violence and disarray has left small Christian communities very exposed and sometimes subject to direct attack.

290 5 March 2014 Recent threats by a radical jihadist group to force Christians in the city of Raqqa in Syria either to convert to Islam, pay a tax or face death are nothing less than abhorrent. Similarly, the attacks by the Assad regime on Christian communities and churches in opposition-held areas expose the false claims of the regime to be protecting the rights of minorities.

In Iraq, as in Syria, small Christian communities scattered among larger Sunni or Shia Muslim populations were especially vulnerable during bitter sectarian violence between those populations between 2006 and 2009, and up to half of the Christian community are estimated to have emigrated in that period. Violence in Iraq has significantly reduced since then, although it is unfortunately now very much on the increase, and the ability of the Iraqi Government to protect all of its citizens remains a major concern.

In Iran, the ancient Christian communities long established in the country, the largest of which is the Armenian Church, are able to practice their faith, maintain churches and have small reserved representation in Parliament, although there are also many areas of national life reserved for Muslims. There is a less tolerant attitude to more recently arrived evangelical forms of Christianity.

While some Christians from the Middle East have found refuge in Ireland, asylum in Ireland or Europe is not a solution to this problem because the numbers are too great and there are others also at risk and because it would spell the end for ancient Christian communities which have survived in the region since the earliest days of Christianity.

The protection of fundamental rights for all communities particularly now in Syria but also across the wider Middle East, including Christian communities, many of whom are faced with rising intolerance and threats, is integral to Ireland’s engagement with these countries and so- cieties. Ireland raises the issue of the safety of Christians through its official bilateral contacts with the countries in question, stressing the responsibility of the Government to protect all minorities.

The Tánaiste has raised the protection of Middle Eastern Christian communities at meetings of the EU Foreign Affairs Council, where Ireland has argued for stronger references to pressure on minority communities, as well as in his bilateral meetings with representatives of Middle Eastern states. Officials from the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade have frequently met local Christian leaders from the Middle East region and discussed the issues affecting their communities. Many of these groups have requested that efforts made on their behalf be carried out discreetly as any special attention from western countries might increase their difficulties. This is why EU and Irish interventions are often framed in general terms of minority rights, or freedom of religion.

On the broader international plane, Ireland has worked at UN and EU level to promote resolutions and actions on the principle of freedom of religious belief, notably during our 2013 EU Presidency and now in our membership of the UN Human Rights Council in Geneva. The Government remains committed to this important issue.

05/03/2014WW00200Senator Denis O’Donovan: I thank the Minister of State for her encouraging response. I ask her to convey to the Tánaiste my view that we should redouble our efforts to preserve human dignity and something we accept generally in our Constitution. The religion that seems most at risk worldwide at the moment is Christianity, which is unfortunate. Ireland is tolerant of most religions and while we have had our faults and failings, we should be cognisant that there

291 Seanad Éireann is an effort in many Middle Eastern countries, Africa and elsewhere to diminish the Christian- ity with which we are associated. Even China has 5 million or 6 million Christians who are allowed to practise - which is more than the number of practising Christians in Ireland. We are swimming against the tide as Christians. I thank the Minister of State for her response and I ask her to ask the Tánaiste to redouble his efforts and keep the issue to the fore.

05/03/2014WW00300Deputy Kathleen Lynch: I believe he will do so because he is very conscious of the issue. However, it needs to be framed in the context of freedom of expression and freedom to practice one’s religion. I am very conscious that the Christian leaders who are met at private meetings are anxious that any efforts made on their behalf are done discreetly. We can only imagine the pressure they are under and the fear in which they live on a daily basis. We need to be conscious of their fears. I will convey the Senator’s sentiments to the Tánaiste.

The Seanad adjourned at 7.55 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 6 March 2014.

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