COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
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House Game and Fisheries Committee
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Public Hearing on House Bill 904 Sunday Hunting
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Room 60, East Wing Main Capitol Building Harrisburg, Pennsylvania
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9:47 a.m. Thursday, June 9, 2005
BEFORE:
Honorable Bruce Smith, Majority Chairperson Honorable Keith Gillespie Honorable Matthew Good Honorable Mark Keller Honorable Mark McNaughton Honorable Tina Pickett Honorable Curt Sonney Honorable Edward Staback, Minority Chairperson Honorable Marc Gergely Honorable Paul Costa Honorable Neal Goodman Honorable Michael Hanna Honorable Christopher Sainato Honorable Dan Surra
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ALSO PRESENT:
Dave Comes Majority Executive Director
Rob Miller Executive Director Hunting, Fishing and Conservation Council
JENNIFER P. McGRATH, RPR Official Court Reporter Schuylkill County Courthouse Pottsville, Pennsylvania 17901 (570) 628-1325
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C O N T E N T S
WITNESS PAGE
Vern Ross, Executive Director 8 Pennsylvania Game Commission
Melody Zullinger, Executive Director 28 PA Federation of Sportsmen's Clubs, Inc.
Joel Rotz 44 Wilmer Lehman 46 PA Farm Bureau
Ed Wentzler 70 United Bowhunters of PA
Hugh Downing 79 Keystone Trails
David Laden 98 PA Fish and Game Protective Association
Ralph Saggiomo 105 Unified Sportsmen of PA
TESTIMONY SUBMITTED BY:
PA State Archery Association
Philadelphia Rod and Gun Club
National Wildlife Turkey Federation
Pennsylvania State Grange
National Rifle Association
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1 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: I'll call this meeting
2 to order of the Game and Fisheries Committee on House
3 Bill 904. And the purpose of House Bill 904 is to
4 give the Game Commission the power to make the
5 decision as to whether additional Sunday hunting may
6 occur in Pennsylvania. Right now, the Legislature and
7 the government have the power to make that decision
8 and the Game Commission does not.
9 For the members -- and each of you will
10 have a chance to interrogate anyone that you
11 wish -- I've asked the people who are testifying to
12 limit their remarks to 10 minutes, and I've allowed
13 time for the members to ask questions. And I want the
14 members to know that only organizations were invited
15 to testify at this particular hearing. A couple
16 members indicated they have had constituents that
17 wanted to testify both pro and con. And I indicated
18 this was an opportunity only for organizations to
19 testify.
20 The prime sponsor of House Bill 904 is
21 Minority Chairman Staback. He'd like to make a brief
22 statement.
23 CHAIRPERSON STABACK: Thank you very much,
24 Chairman Smith. I first want to thank Chairman Smith
25 for today's hearing and for his cooperation with the
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1 crowded schedule. Also, I want to thank those that
2 are offering testimony and those in attendance. I
3 appreciate this attention to House Bill 904.
4 House Bill 2779 of last session and now
5 House Bill 904 provoked input from hunters and from
6 concerned citizens from a variety of different
7 viewpoints. However, when these comments started to
8 come in, a pattern quickly emerged. Many of the
9 comments I received addressed the question of Sunday
10 hunting, a topic that is always controversial. In
11 fact, very few of the calls or letters I had received
12 actually addressed the intent of House Bill 904.
13 With that in mind, I would like to stress
14 at the outset of today's hearing what House Bill 904
15 does and what it doesn't do. My bill does not
16 advocate hunting on Sunday. It does not urge the
17 approval of expanded seasons. It does not argue for
18 additional species to be added to the list of animals
19 now hunted on Sunday.
20 Even with that said, I expect much of what
21 we may hear today will touch on Sunday hunting.
22 Sunday hunting advocates will take this opportunity to
23 discuss reasons for their support, and the opponents
24 will cite their sincere opposition. And to a degree,
25 that will be good. The discussions on Sunday hunting
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1 are always informative. And I believe it is a subject
2 that deserves every possible discussion and exchange
3 of views.
4 But I want to caution today's speakers
5 about something that I spoke with Chairman Smith about
6 several times during preparations for today's hearing.
7 The subject of today's hearing, House Bill 904, the
8 bill simply shifts the decision-making process on the
9 regulation of Sunday hunting from the General Assembly
10 to the Pennsylvania Game Commission. If passed, House
11 Bill 904 would move the Sunday hunting debate from the
12 floor of the House or Senate to the Pennsylvania Game
13 Commission. And that is where I believe all game
14 management decisions should be made just like they are
15 now for every species on every other day of the week.
16 I know that we will hear about Sunday
17 hunting today. But please keep in mind I want to hear
18 your views on House Bill 904 as well. Who should be
19 the State's game managers? Should the Legislature or
20 the Game Commission decide that Sunday hunting is to
21 be used as a game management tool? Should such a
22 decision be made by elected officials from around the
23 state? Or should the experts at the Game Commission
24 have the final say on all matters concerning what,
25 where, and when Pennsylvania game species will be
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1 hunted?
2 To me, it makes sense that the same
3 organization we heard described not long ago during
4 hearings on an issue as the nation's premier
5 conservation agency should be given the authority on
6 every question of game management on every species in
7 the Commonwealth and on every day of the week. That
8 is what I'm listening for in today's testimony. And I
9 hope to be able to get a response from each
10 representative of the organizations participating
11 today. And if the presenters think House Bill 904 is
12 a bad idea, that the Game Commission should be kept
13 out of the decisions on game management on Sundays,
14 I'd like to hear the reasons why.
15 So again, thank you, Chairman Smith. And
16 thank you to the members who joined us here today.
17 And I look forward to hearing today's testimony.
18 Thank you very much.
19 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Thank you, Chairman
20 Staback. One additional clarification. As all of the
21 members know and I think most people in the audience,
22 the Legislative Budget and Finance Committee is just
23 about finished with its study on Sunday hunting, the
24 pros and cons of Sunday hunting. And we as a
25 committee will be meeting next week to get a report
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1 from the Legislative Budget and Finance Committee. So
2 it's a little bit unusual that we're having this
3 meeting a week before that. But as Chairman Staback
4 said, do you want, or do these organizations want to
5 shift the decision-making from the Legislature to the
6 Game Commission?
7 Having said that, our first speaker is Vern
8 Ross, Executive Director of the Pennsylvania Game
9 Commission.
10 MR. ROSS: Good morning. Good morning,
11 Chairman Smith and Chairman Staback and members of the
12 committee. It's a pleasure to be here this morning.
13 We appreciate the opportunity to be able to comment on
14 House Bill 904.
15 On October 15th, 2004, we were asked by
16 Chairman Staback to comment on House Bill 2779,
17 similar legislation that he sponsored in the last
18 session. At that time, I responded to him in the
19 following manner: The Pennsylvania Game Commission
20 has been using the following position statement when
21 asked to comment on the issue of Sunday hunting: The
22 Pennsylvania Game Commission does not oppose
23 legislation to legalize Sunday hunting. Let me repeat
24 that. The Pennsylvania Game Commission does not
25 oppose legislation to legalize Sunday hunting.
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1 Our Board of Commissioners are
2 split -- some supporting and others opposing -- on
3 this issue. I think you'll see the trend on this
4 issue not only among our commissioners but among the
5 legislators and among hunters. Over the years, we
6 have surveyed hunters on Sunday hunting. At one time,
7 it was close to 70 percent were opposed and 30 percent
8 were in favor. The last time we took a survey, it's
9 pretty evenly split 50/50. What we find is the
10 younger hunters are looking forward to Sunday hunting.
11 Us older guys, we kind of say we don't like, we don't
12 like to change tradition.
13 The whole issue of Sunday hunting is a
14 matter that must be decided by the legislators,
15 landowners, hunters, and citizens of the Commonwealth.
16 If the legislation is enacted, the Agency will seek to
17 implement Sunday hunting when and where appropriate.
18 We recognize that House Bill 2779 takes a
19 slightly different tack and gives greater regulatory
20 authority regarding seasons, including Sundays, to the
21 Pennsylvania Game Commission. This concept is very
22 intriguing and warrants much greater discussion and
23 consideration.
24 As a broad statement of philosophy, I can
25 say that any time the General Assembly wants to give
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1 greater authority to the Game Commission, that we
2 would welcome that responsibility.
3 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Why am I not surprised?
4 MR. ROSS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr.
5 Chairman, after talking this over with staff and
6 commissioners, I can say that we would welcome the
7 authority House Bill 904 would give to the Commission.
8 We feel that with input from our biologists, the
9 public, and careful consideration by our
10 commissioners, that we can make all decisions
11 regarding seasons and bag limits, including what
12 species could possibly be hunted on Sundays and which
13 species may not be appropriate to hunt on that day.
14 Again, our position is that any time the
15 General Assembly wants to give greater authority to
16 the Pennsylvania Game Commission, we will welcome that
17 responsibility. Although, we need to think about what
18 impact Sunday hunting would have on our farm game,
19 forest game, and safety zone programs in which we have
20 several million acres of private lands signed up to
21 provide public hunting and trapping opportunities.
22 These lands are open to the public. Many of these
23 landowners have said if Sunday hunting is approved,
24 they will leave the program and post their land.
25 I would like to point out that nothing in
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1 House Bill 904 would change the fact that the
2 landowner has control over who hunts on their land and
3 when they hunt. Landowner control over their private
4 property remains exactly as it is today. It's their
5 choice.
6 On a positive note, with additional time
7 given to hunters, we may see an increase in license
8 sales such as we've seen with muzzleloading sales in
9 the past few years. Also, increased opportunities may
10 help with retaining the hunters we currently have and
11 should further our efforts at recruiting new hunters;
12 namely, junior hunters.
13 Lastly, let's not forget that hunting in
14 Pennsylvania is a big business. The latest study done
15 by Southwick Associates within the past couple of
16 months shows that there were 1.16 billion in retail
17 sales in 2001 with a total impact to our economy of
18 over 2.28 billion.
19 In his letter to me, Chairman Staback had
20 some kind words to say concerning our national
21 reputation as leaders in wildlife management
22 throughout the United States. We will continue to
23 strive to be a leader among wildlife agencies
24 nationwide. And with support from people like you on
25 this committee, we believe it is possible to remain a
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1 respected leader in the field of wildlife management
2 for years to come. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
3 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Thank you, Vern. I'd
4 like members to limit their questions to two questions
5 from each member to each individual testifying. And I
6 just happen to have two questions for you. A few
7 years back, the Game Commission promulgated some
8 additional regulations for horseback riding and other
9 uses on game lands. And I believe there was some
10 either formal or informal agreements made with
11 horseback riders regarding the usage of the land on
12 Sunday. How would you administer that if this bill
13 would become law?
14 MR. ROSS: What we're looking at is a small
15 window of time. Fist of all, it would depend, Mr.
16 Chairman, on what species we're going to hunt. The
17 second thing, we'd have to go back and take a look at
18 those game land regulations. We talked about that as
19 a staff here about a week ago. We'd have to go back
20 and review some of those regulations we have out
21 there. But it all would depend on what kind of
22 species we're going to hunt also.
23 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: You didn't answer my
24 question. What agreements were made with the
25 horseback riders?
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1 MR. ROSS: Basically, they, during the
2 hunting season -- I can't give you the exact date.
3 Sometime the 1st of October until the end of hunting
4 season, there's no horseback riding on the game lands.
5 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: So they have no reason
6 to expect anything additional?
7 MR. ROSS: Well, you know, in the
8 springtime, that's a little bit different because when
9 we have spring turkey season, they can be on the game
10 lands after 1:00 o'clock in the afternoon.
11 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: My second and last
12 question is with the controversy regarding the lack of
13 deer in certain areas of the state, what this bill
14 would do if the Game Commission would follow through
15 and allow Sunday hunting, for instance, for deer. How
16 would you take into account an additional day of
17 hunting when in some areas of the state there are so
18 few deer?
19 MR. ROSS: I think what you have to be is
20 very selective. What I would look at, especially down
21 in the southeast around the Chester, Montgomery,
22 Bucks, Philadelphia area where we do have a tremendous
23 problem with deer down there, this would be ideally
24 suited to give extra days in that area plus in some
25 other areas like maybe Allegheny County where they
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1 have quite a few deer in suburban areas. Those areas
2 where we don't have a whole lot of deer, don't expect
3 to have Sunday hunting.
4 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Thank you, Vern.
5 Chairman Staback.
6 CHAIRPERSON STABACK: Thank you, Bruce.
7 Mr. Ross, if the Commission were given the authority
8 over expanded Sunday hunting and if the Commission
9 decided to pursue it, how would you go about making
10 the decision to use expanded hunting opportunities as
11 a game management tool?
12 MR. ROSS: I think first thing we'd have to
13 look at is species. What kind of species could we
14 hunt on Sunday, and what's going to be the least
15 amount of impact that we would have with the rest of
16 the citizens of the Commonwealth, and where could this
17 be instituted?
18 I think first thing we do is sit down with
19 our biologists, take a look at everything with our
20 field staff and come to some conclusions of some areas
21 we could hunt and what species we could hunt.
22 CHAIRPERSON STABACK: It would be very
23 possible then to assume that, as you alluded to
24 earlier, if you had an overabundance of a particular
25 game species and particular wildlife management,
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1 Sunday hunting could be limited only to that specific
2 unit; is that so?
3 MR. ROSS: Very possible. Yes, sir.
4 CHAIRPERSON STABACK: Would there be public
5 input before you made that kind of decision? And if
6 there was, who would you gather that information from?
7 MR. ROSS: I think we would gather input.
8 We do that in the way we do it right now. At our
9 meetings, we will take letters. We would have
10 meetings around the state. First of all, when you go
11 into something like this, it's a tremendous education
12 program, if it's approved by legislators, exactly how
13 we're going to and what we're going to be. And we
14 would take input from different organizations, Farm
15 Bureau, what have you, and listen to what everyone has
16 to say.
17 CHAIRPERSON STABACK: Thank you.
18 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Representative Sonney.
19 REPRESENTATIVE SONNEY: Thank you, Mr.
20 Chairman. I was interested -- you mentioned polling
21 and how it changed to about 70 percent against to
22 about 50 percent against right now. I was curious as
23 to how you do that polling.
24 MR. ROSS: Well, it's done by a survey. We
25 give wildlife surveys and plus we contract surveys.
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1 And we've contracted out different surveys over the
2 years with different organizations to do these
3 surveys. And plus we do some right in-house, and we
4 send surveys out to hunters and ask them their opinion
5 on Sunday hunting. It's just one question.
6 And what you'll find with that survey, it's
7 not, Well, maybe I'll look at it. It's either yes or
8 no.
9 REPRESENTATIVE SONNEY: So your survey is
10 taken from hunters?
11 MR. ROSS: Yes.
12 REPRESENTATIVE SONNEY: Thank you.
13 MR. ROSS: You're welcome, sir.
14 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Representative Surra.
15 REPRESENTATIVE SURRA: Thank you, Mr.
16 Chairman. Thank you, Director Ross. I know one of
17 the concerns if we allow the Game Commission to have
18 the authority to expand hunting opportunities is what,
19 what would happen on our vast areas of public or
20 private land in trying to keep those open to hunting.
21 Currently, there's only seven states that
22 do not have Sunday hunting. And the trend that -- we
23 have a great letter here in our packet from the
24 National Rifle Association which supports this bill.
25 The trend for, like, the last eight or ten years in
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1 states that have had this debate that we're going
2 through right now, in 1996, New York opened hunting on
3 Sunday for three Sundays. Within five years, the law
4 changed to allow full Sunday hunting. In 1998, Ohio
5 passed a bill allowing to test Sunday hunting for a
6 period of three years. In 2002, the legislature made
7 Sunday hunting permanent. Michigan Sunday hunting was
8 banned on private land in certain counties. In 2003,
9 all Sunday hunting closures were repealed.
10 And in the hearings years ago on my initial
11 Sunday hunting bill, the testimony from people of your
12 position from those states, the Game Commissions in
13 Ohio and New York basically said that all the concerns
14 and issues were, after it was enacted, were like,
15 What's the big deal? It really was not the problem
16 that people thought it would've been.
17 What's your feeling like in Pennsylvania?
18 Do you think that we could eventually work towards
19 that and try to -- I guess my question is how can we,
20 how can we put at ease and bring on board our private
21 landowners?
22 MR. ROSS: I think some of the things we
23 have to do when we look at this bill is kind of
24 guarantee them -- you know what I mean? That I think
25 what I hear from some of the folks, they just don't
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1 want to be bothered on that day. Most hunters that I
2 know, if they hunt on a certain farmland, they ask way
3 ahead of time. They don't come there on Sunday and
4 knock on the door.
5 But I think we have to guarantee them that
6 if -- and hunters in the state of Pennsylvania are
7 pretty good. But we have to guarantee them that if
8 they do have people hunting on their property on
9 Sundays and they're not supposed to be there, that the
10 law, when it's put in place, the fine's heavy enough
11 that it's a pretty big deterrent and they don't do it.
12 And I think -- I've talked to some of these
13 other directors in some of these other states. And
14 what you're saying, Representative Surra, is basically
15 what they told me. They had the same concerns we all
16 have in this room. But once it was done, it wasn't
17 that bad.
18 REPRESENTATIVE SURRA: Thank you.
19 MR. ROSS: It's a tremendous educational
20 program. It really is.
21 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Representative Pickett.
22 REPRESENTATIVE PICKETT: Thank you,
23 Chairman Smith. Mr. Ross, I represent Bradford,
24 Sullivan, and Susquehanna Counties. Certainly a
25 sportsmen's delight up there. And we enjoy having
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1 sporting in our area. But it's also a big business,
2 as you mentioned near the end of your testimony. And
3 my small businesses depend tremendously upon the
4 revenue that comes from hunting. So when we start
5 talking about things like this, they are always
6 concerned. And I realize this question is if the Game
7 Commission should be in charge. But they always start
8 worrying about how the numbers are going to play out.
9 Are they going to see more in particularly
10 nonresident licenses coming in because we have Sunday
11 hunting? Are they going to see less because the
12 perception is the land is going to be posted? It
13 already seems to be a problem that the nonresidents
14 say, Well, I can't find anyplace to hunt. So I'm not
15 coming there anymore.
16 Do you have any, any vision on how that
17 might turn out for the, this very important revenue?
18 MR. ROSS: I think when you take a look at
19 right now -- let's take, for instance, because we just
20 come out of spring gobbler hunting. For somebody to
21 travel from this location up to Susquehanna and
22 Bradford County to hunt for half a day of turkey, just
23 a half a day is quite expensive to go from there up.
24 So what we're finding right now, rather
25 than them going up to the rural areas to hunt for
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1 turkey, they're staying closer to home. So there is
2 some lost revenue in some of these areas because to go
3 up there and back for $2.05 per gallon of gas, it's
4 cheaper to hunt Perry County, Juniata County, close
5 by. Plus, if you go up, you can hunt a half a day on
6 Saturday plus a half a day on Sunday. You will tend
7 to have more people maybe coming up there to hunt on
8 spring turkey hunting. And I think it would hold true
9 for other species.
10 But it's something you have to take a look
11 at because, like, some of those rural areas up there
12 depend on the hunters to come in there so that they
13 can survive. So economically, this is a, this could
14 be a boom. And then again, it's not the cure-all for
15 everything. I want to caution on that. It's not the
16 cure-all for everything.
17 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Representative Goodman.
18 REPRESENTATIVE GOODMAN: Thank you, Mr.
19 Chairman. Good morning, Vern.
20 MR. ROSS: Good morning, Mr. Goodman.
21 REPRESENTATIVE GOODMAN: I have one short
22 question here. Over the last 10 years, the Game
23 Commission has lost about 10 percent of the junior
24 license holders. And I know you've been doing an
25 awful lot of things to try to bring them back to try
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1 to keep them. I know you have special youth hunts for
2 small game and for turkey and you have a lot of other
3 activities. The Game Commission officers participate
4 in our schools. And I commend these programs.
5 But when we talk about, when we talk about
6 Sunday hunting -- and the one thing that I noticed in
7 your testimony was you said it seems to be a young
8 philosophy versus an older philosophy. When young
9 hunters are asked why they're not participating, the
10 answer that comes back all the time is it's time.
11 They simply don't have the time that we had like when
12 we were growing up. There was a lot more time
13 available.
14 Wouldn't Sunday hunting, if -- and I like
15 this idea that it's going to be up to the Game
16 Commission to make the ultimate decision on which
17 areas will be opened and what seasons. But wouldn't
18 this really be the greatest tool to provide
19 Pennsylvania hunters with simply more time to
20 participate in the sport we love?
21 MR. ROSS: Good question. As I alluded to,
22 when we expand hunting seasons; in other words,
23 muzzleloading season, I'll take that as an example,
24 when we expanded that into October for a week long
25 season, we went from around 140,000 sales in
22
1 muzzleloading licenses up to 190. It jumped quite a
2 bit because you gave more time, more participation.
3 Bear hunting, again, we have that week long
4 season up there in the Poconos. Our bear sales have
5 jumped from probably 93,000. We're up to 137,000.
6 What it shows, if you give more opportunity to hunt,
7 they'll take advantage of it.
8 Now, when we go back and take a look at the
9 youngsters -- I have grandsons. You know, they're in
10 high school. Some are in college. Some are in grade
11 school. They're in sports. You say, Well, take them
12 hunting on Saturday. They practice on Saturday. If
13 you don't show up for practice, you don't play.
14 You're off the team.
15 A lot of fathers work six days a week. So
16 it gives that time, that extra day. You could find
17 more young people out there, and you can find more
18 families out there. So yes, like I said, it's not a
19 cure-all. But expand the time for them, and you'll
20 see increase in sales.
21 One thing about junior hunters, I do want
22 to say this, since 1999, we are increasing our junior
23 hunters. And this year, we're again up 3 percent over
24 the last year. What we have to be concerned
25 about -- that sounds good. But here's the problem:
23
1 We lose 100 hunters on this end, and we're only
2 bringing in 62 on this end. So that's what you have
3 to look at. And what we're losing right now is a lot
4 of our World War II Veterans. When you take a look at
5 it, that's our biggest loss right now. And we can't
6 replace them fast enough with junior hunters.
7 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Representative Gergely.
8 REPRESENTATIVE GERGELY: Thank you, Mr.
9 Chairman. And thank you, Mr. Ross, for attending
10 today. And thank you last year for coming down to
11 Pittsburgh to testify on my policy hearing concerning
12 Sunday hunting. We're already starting to rehash a
13 lot of the same issues.
14 But one of the things that was brought up
15 was, How do we address the deer harvest issue if we
16 add a Sunday? And I would provide to the committee
17 the testimony from Dr. Mike Tonkovich, who's the deer
18 biologist from Ohio, who took the time to come to
19 Pittsburgh to testify about what Ohio did. He was the
20 deer biologist when Ohio went to full Sunday hunting.
21 And the statistics there showed that you
22 didn't have an increased harvest. You just had a more
23 spread out harvest. Actually, you didn't see more
24 deer killed. You just saw them killed, instead of all
25 on Saturday, some on Sunday. But the equation
24
1 actually equalled out. So the answer to that question
2 somewhat, at least from Ohio, was that it was a spread
3 out harvest.
4 The question about doing surveys is
5 interesting. Matt Good, I know, Matt, you're from
6 Erie County, Representative. They had a sportsmen
7 show. And one of the booths did an informal survey.
8 And the survey showed informally -- this isn't
9 scientific or anything -- that 70 to 30 were in favor
10 of Sunday hunting. Anyone here can log onto
11 HuntingPA.com --
12 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Do you have a question?
13 REPRESENTATIVE GERGELY: I thought Mr.
14 Surra was doing the same thing, Mr. Chairman. Is that
15 a problem?
16 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: I just didn't know how
17 much you were going to educate us.
18 REPRESENTATIVE GERGELY: I look forward to
19 trying. If I'm out of line, please stop me.
20 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Depends how long you
21 go.
22 REPRESENTATIVE GERGELY: I won't go very
23 long.
24 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: All right.
25 REPRESENTATIVE GERGELY: The HuntingPA.com
25
1 website, though, I want to say 68 percent are in favor
2 of Sunday hunting. Younger hunters access to the
3 website, obviously you can see that trend. I did a
4 survey in my district, an urban county, Allegheny
5 County, 75/25. These guys own the camps where
6 Representative Pickett hopes they come. Just like
7 myself, I have a camp in Forest County. You want to
8 talk about a loss of revenue. Forest County borders
9 Ohio. Significant economic impact since Ohio's gone
10 to Sunday hunting. Think about that. So there is a
11 difference. If we added Sunday hunting, I think that
12 would have an impact.
13 My question to you, Mr. Ross, in Ohio, they
14 call it the Ohio lesson. And Representative Surra
15 referred to it. In '98, they implemented restricted
16 Sunday hunting; but they set a sunset provision to
17 that. Would you be interested, if we were to address
18 the House Bill to give you oversight, if we were to
19 put a sunset provision on that so we could revisit
20 this provision in say, like, three years?
21 MR. ROSS: I would not be opposed to that.
22 I think we can take a look at that because I know
23 exactly what they did in Ohio in talking with their
24 executive director out there. And from all accounts,
25 it worked out very well.
26
1 REPRESENTATIVE GERGELY: Thank you. Thank
2 you, Mr. Chairman.
3 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Representative Hanna.
4 REPRESENTATIVE HANNA: Thank you, Mr.
5 Chairman. Mr. Ross, the constituents that I talk with
6 fall into two categories, of course those who are
7 opposed and those who support it. Often those who
8 support it are hunters who are very concerned that
9 they want to be sure that the Game Commission will
10 always put wildlife management first in any decisions
11 if we do give you this authority under the bill. And
12 those who oppose it have a concern that that will be
13 the only consideration, that you only look at wildlife
14 management in making decisions on whether to expand
15 the Sundays.
16 So I guess I'm asking you, Can we give both
17 the opponents and the supporters some assurances that
18 the Game Commission will always keep wildlife
19 management first since that's its primary mission but
20 will also look at the social and economic factors in
21 making any decisions about expanding the Sunday
22 hunting?
23 MR. ROSS: I think our mission is clearly
24 stated. First responsibility is wildlife. And that's
25 what we make sound, good decisions on, is wildlife.
27
1 And that's where we're going to go. Wildlife is
2 first. When we look at the other factors, they have
3 to be weighed in. Again, our wildlife is number one.
4 You have that guarantee.
5 REPRESENTATIVE HANNA: Thank you.
6 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Any additional
7 questions by members? Representative Gillespie.
8 REPRESENTATIVE GILLESPIE: Thank you, Mr.
9 Ross. Just one final question here to your testimony.
10 You mentioned that many of your landowners that are
11 enrolled in the various programs would leave the
12 programs if Sunday hunting was opened up. Have you
13 run a survey on them, or have they just come forth
14 voluntarily and offered that information?
15 MR. ROSS: No, we have not run a survey
16 with each one of them. But they have contacted in
17 some way -- you know what I mean? -- through our
18 regional offices. We constantly go back and tell them
19 you still control your property. That's the key. You
20 say who hunts on your property. You own it. You have
21 rights. And I think that's the key to everything.
22 REPRESENTATIVE GILLESPIE: Thank you.
23 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: I have to follow up on
24 that question. Part of the Legislative Budget and
25 Finance Committee are questions to various
28
1 individuals, farm owners, et cetera. Was any of that
2 to co-op owners, co-op --
3 MR. ROSS: I'm sure it would be, yes.
4 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: So we will get that
5 information next week.
6 MR. ROSS: Yeah. And we're looking forward
7 to seeing that report ourselves, too.
8 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: You haven't seen it
9 yet?
10 MR. ROSS: No.
11 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Neither have I.
12 Chairman Staback, I have not seen it. Okay.
13 Legislative Budget and Finance Committee must get the
14 report first. We're getting it the next day.
15 Chairman Ross, thank you very much.
16 Chairman. Excuse me. Executive Director Ross, thank
17 you very much for your testimony. You were -- you did
18 very well. But we're now 25 minutes behind schedule.
19 Next person to testify is Melody Zullinger,
20 Pennsylvania Federation of Sportsmen's Clubs. You may
21 proceed.
22 MS. ZULLINGER: Good morning. Chairman
23 Smith, Chairman Staback, members of the committee,
24 good morning. My name is Melody Zullinger. I'm the
25 Executive Director for the Pennsylvania Federation of
29
1 Sportsmen's Clubs. We currently represent
2 approximately 97,000 sportsmen and women, with 333 --
3 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Melody, is that green
4 light on?
5 MS. ZULLINGER: Yes.
6 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Okay. Get a little
7 closer to it, please.
8 MS. ZULLINGER: -- with 333 affiliated
9 clubs in 48 counties. The Pennsylvania Chapter of the
10 National Wild Turkey Federation and the Pennsylvania
11 Trappers Association are also statewide affiliates of
12 PFSC, but we do not pretend to represent their
13 organizations' views with this testimony.
14 As many of you know, our organization has
15 debated the merits of Sunday hunting quite frequently
16 over the past few years. The topic always brings
17 about heated debate from both sides of the issue. And
18 until recently, the pendulum has always tilted
19 substantially towards the nonsupportive side, and
20 we've typically been opposed to blanketly allowing
21 Sunday hunting for all species all the time.
22 There have been occasions where the PFSC
23 has supported limited Sunday hunting opportunities for
24 certain species, most recently woodchucks. We still
25 have some clubs and counties that are adamantly
30
1 opposed to any expansion, some clubs and counties that
2 are open to some expansion, and some clubs and
3 counties that are split on the issue. So although the
4 pendulum is not as lopsided as it once was on the
5 Sunday hunting issue, it is still not on the side of
6 broadbased expansion.
7 House Bill 904, though, is not just about
8 Sunday hunting. It is about expanding the role and
9 responsibilities of the PA Game Commission's Board of
10 Commissioners. The PFSC has always supported the
11 Commissioner concept of management of our resource
12 agencies. And I believe we would support increasing
13 that independent status. However, many question the
14 true independence of the existing system which I often
15 refer to as being about as independent as a
16 2-year-old. And recent meetings and comments by
17 legislators have reiterated our concern about the
18 so-called independence of the agency.
19 At the April 14th meeting of this committee
20 concerning deer management, several of you indicated
21 that you would not address the much needed license
22 increase until the Agency's dependence upon revenue
23 generated from antlerless license revenues was
24 addressed and the current deer problems were fixed.
25 Currently, that perceived revenue dependency can only
31
1 be resolved by you, the members of the General
2 Assembly. And fixing the deer problems is a wildlife
3 management issue, and it should be decided using sound
4 scientific management, not because of the pressure of
5 being held hostage by the General Assembly in order to
6 get a much needed license increase.
7 So our dilemma is, Should we now support
8 legislation that will add one more highly
9 controversial management issue to the regulating
10 authority of the Commission that could be held against
11 them should they not set regulations that please all
12 members of the General Assembly?
13 If we are to support this concept, then
14 perhaps House Bill 904 should be amended to also allow
15 the Board of Commissioners to determine other issues
16 such as establishing license fees as well as license
17 exemptions and establishing penalty amounts for
18 violations of the existing game laws.
19 But House Bill 904 does not adequately
20 address the larger issue of commissioner
21 responsibilities. It simply addresses one item,
22 Sunday hunting. So that is what we must decide to
23 support or not.
24 Others here today will testify on the
25 merits of Sunday hunting. I will not argue against
32
1 those merits because I believe many of them are
2 justifiable. I would just simply state that the issue
3 is a very personal issue to everyone regardless which
4 side you're on. And at the current time, the majority
5 of the PFSC's membership still appears to be opposed
6 to any broadband expansion to Sunday hunting. So we
7 do not support House Bill 904 at this time. Thank you
8 for allowing us the opportunity to testify.
9 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Thank you, Melody. I'm
10 aware of the format that the Federation follows
11 relating to supporting or opposing legislation. And
12 that's generally done at a statewide meeting of the
13 Federation.
14 MS. ZULLINGER: Yes.
15 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: And my question to you
16 is, one, has House Bill 904 been addressed by a
17 statewide meeting of the Federation? And two, if it
18 has not been addressed, when will it be addressed; and
19 will membership of those attending the statewide
20 meeting take a formal position of support or
21 opposition at that time?
22 MS. ZULLINGER: It was discussed at our
23 spring convention in March. I informed the membership
24 of the impending bill. No official vote was taken at
25 that time because they did not have time to take it
33
1 back directly to their clubs and counties. But since
2 that time, because of this hearing in particular, we
3 did an E-mail and phone poll. And that's how we based
4 the decision. As I said in the testimony, the
5 feedback that I got was kind of sparse. But it was
6 about a 60/40 split still opposing to support the
7 bill. And I did try to explain that the bill was not
8 specifically about Sunday hunting, but the comments
9 that I got back still related to the specific Sunday
10 hunting issue.
11 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: You partially answered
12 my question.
13 MS. ZULLINGER: I'm sorry.
14 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Get back to will the
15 Federation at a statewide meeting specifically take a
16 position for or against House Bill 904?
17 MS. ZULLINGER: If this is still on the
18 table come September, we will, yes, be voting on it.
19 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Thank you. Chairman
20 Staback.
21 CHAIRPERSON STABACK: Chairman Smith, you
22 have already addressed part of my concern with, you
23 know, the number of your membership that had a voice
24 in making up the decision that you just alluded to not
25 to support the bill. You say you have 97,000 members,
34
1 and you polled approximately 197,000?
2 MS. ZULLINGER: No, sir. We do not have
3 97,000 members. We say we represent 97,000 sportsmen
4 because they are made up through our affiliated member
5 clubs.
6 CHAIRPERSON STABACK: What you're saying,
7 they're all part of the Federation, though? Is that
8 what you're saying?
9 MS. ZULLINGER: Yes, they are affiliated
10 through their clubs.
11 CHAIRPERSON STABACK: Well, then they are
12 members of your organization, right?
13 MS. ZULLINGER: Through the clubs, yes.
14 CHAIRPERSON STABACK: All right. But I'm
15 going to revert back to what I just said then. Of the
16 97,000 people that you represent, you polled only 100.
17 That is correct? With that 100 polling, you have made
18 a decision that the majority of your membership does
19 not support this bill.
20 I would fall back on what Chairman Smith
21 just asked you and ask you to bring this issue up at
22 your next convention, if you will, or your next
23 general meeting and perhaps come back again with a
24 consensus on what the majority, the great majority of
25 the membership feels.
35
1 During, during the merger talks, the
2 Federation of Sportsmen's Clubs was one of those
3 organizations that depicted the Pennsylvania Game
4 Commission as one of the premier wildlife management
5 agencies in the entire country. Now, if you folks
6 really believe that, if you really believe that, why
7 would you keep this kind of authority away from them?
8 Why would you not want them to have this at least, at
9 least as an option to utilize, to be utilized as a
10 game management tool if they thought they could do a
11 better job managing PA's wildlife population? Why
12 would you want to keep that authority from them?
13 MS. ZULLINGER: Sir, I can't speak for
14 every member. I can only speak, you know, how I feel
15 that they're reaching their consensus is. Like I
16 said, this is a very personal issue to each and every
17 person out there. And I suppose that possibly the
18 majority of them that still oppose the Sunday hunting
19 don't feel that it is a management issue; it's a
20 personal issue.
21 CHAIRPERSON STABACK: Well, this really and
22 truly has nothing to do with Sunday hunting, does it?
23 It doesn't advocate it; it doesn't promote it.
24 MS. ZULLINGER: No, sir. And I --
25 CHAIRPERSON STABACK: Just added
36
1 responsibility to an agency that you folks thought was
2 one of the greatest in the country.
3 MS. ZULLINGER: I can't argue with you. I
4 can't argue with you, sir. All I can go on is what
5 I've heard from the membership and how they've asked
6 me to speak to you today.
7 CHAIRPERSON STABACK: Okay. Thank you very
8 much.
9 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Representative Gergely.
10 No commercials this time.
11 REPRESENTATIVE GERGELY: That was just
12 factual issues, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. Melody,
13 could you explain to the Game and Fisheries
14 Committee -- I don't have representation in Allegheny
15 County through PFSC. The -- I guess you have a new
16 role with the NRA. And that role that you play is an
17 advocate for the NRA. Can you explain to them what
18 you're to do representing the NRA?
19 MS. ZULLINGER: Basically, we are just
20 their approved organization for legislative issues.
21 And when an issue's specific to Pennsylvania,
22 specifically on firearms, then we are supposed to work
23 hand in hand with them. And basically, they are to
24 come to us for what they feel our opinions are. So
25 it's more a matter of just working together on issues.
37
1 REPRESENTATIVE GERGELY: So it's only
2 specifically to certain issues? And I don't want to
3 lose my second question; although, I should have one
4 back from last time.
5 But the other question is, Do you do a
6 county vote similar to like the Senate does? Do you
7 count Forest County as large as, like, Dauphin County
8 when you do this polling although Forest County only
9 has 5,000 people? Or do you do a population vote like
10 the House of Representatives where each member gets to
11 be heard through their representation? Because that
12 can significantly affect the way your votes would come
13 with Sunday hunting.
14 MS. ZULLINGER: I'll be the first to admit
15 our system's not perfect. But it is a one county/one
16 vote. And you must have, must have member clubs
17 within your county to get a vote. It doesn't matter
18 whether you have 10 members or 10,000 members.
19 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Thank you,
20 Representative. Representative Goodman.
21 REPRESENTATIVE GOODMAN: More a point of
22 clarity I guess. In your statement here, it says,
23 House Bill 904 is not just about Sunday hunting. It's
24 about expanding the role and responsibilities of the
25 Pennsylvania Game Commission Board of Commissioners.
38
1 And you go on to say that, "The PFSC has always
2 supported the Commission's concept of management of
3 our resource agencies, and I believe we would support
4 increasing that independent status." Then on the back
5 page, it said, "So our dilemma is, Should we now
6 support legislation that will add one more highly
7 controversial management issue to the regulating
8 authority of the Commission that could be held against
9 them should they not set regulations that please all
10 of the members of the General Assembly?"
11 This is the dilemma as I see it: You know,
12 on the one end, people are constantly saying you in
13 the Legislature need to step up to the plate and do
14 something with the Game Commission in regards to X, Y,
15 and Z. On the other end, though, they say the General
16 Assembly should not get involved with bag limits or
17 setting any type of management.
18 Where does the -- in your opinion, where
19 does the Game Commission sit and where does the
20 General Assembly sit? Who should be making these
21 decisions? In my opinion, House Bill 904 basically
22 gives the authority to the Pennsylvania Game
23 Commission to make the ultimate decision based on
24 wildlife management.
25 Vern Ross has also said that they would
39
1 take into consideration the feelings of the people in
2 the neighborhood, farmers, many of the other
3 interests. But I'd just like to know where does your
4 organization -- who should be making the ultimate
5 decisions when it comes to hunting-related activities?
6 Should it be us? Because I'm willing to take that. I
7 mean, I'm not dodging anything here. If people say,
8 Listen, we want the General Assembly to step up to the
9 plate and do something about antlerless allocations,
10 about revenue, about the license, we'll step up to the
11 plate and do it.
12 Or should it be the Pennsylvania Game
13 Commission that has controls over bag limits and when
14 and where people hunt, in your opinion?
15 MS. ZULLINGER: In my opinion, it should be
16 the Game Commission.
17 REPRESENTATIVE GOODMAN: Then why is not,
18 why is your organization not supporting House Bill 904
19 which simply states that it will be the Game
20 Commission that decides where and when Sunday hunting
21 will be implemented?
22 MS. ZULLINGER: As I stated, not all of our
23 members feel that Sunday hunting is a management
24 issue. That's all I can say. I can't speak for them
25 without them. All we do is poll them, and I have to
40
1 speak on behalf of how those results turn out. I
2 can't read their minds as to exactly why they feel
3 that way. I'm sorry.
4 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Representative Surra.
5 REPRESENTATIVE SURRA: Thank you, Mr.
6 Chairman. Good morning, Melody. I appreciate your
7 comments as Executive Director of the Federation and
8 your concerns about we as legislators wanting some of
9 the perceived problems in the Game Commission
10 addressed prior to any revenue enhancement legislation
11 passing.
12 But I want to assure you that I'm elected
13 by the people in the 75th District, as you're
14 appointed by your members. And all the sportsmen in
15 Elk and Clearfield Counties don't necessarily agree
16 with the Federation. And I have to weigh their
17 concerns as I do yours also.
18 As the Chairman, or Director of the
19 Commission stated, that for every 100 hunters who stop
20 hunting, we lose as license buyers is only being
21 replaced by 62. If they would do anything on Sunday
22 hunting, be it turkeys or any expansion at all, it's
23 their decision. I don't think anybody would be forced
24 to hunt on Sunday, would they, if they don't want to?
25 MS. ZULLINGER: No.
41
1 REPRESENTATIVE SURRA: Okay. Knowing that
2 we're losing hunters in that amount and knowing that
3 the time of our young hunters is very, very limited,
4 do you believe that more opportunities in possibly
5 hunting turkeys or other species on Sundays at the
6 discretion of the Game Commission could possibly
7 increase the number of youth license sales?
8 MS. ZULLINGER: Personally or on behalf of
9 the organization? Personally, I believe that anything
10 we can do to increase more hunting time is important.
11 But as I've stated, I cannot speak, I cannot support
12 Sunday hunting on behalf of the Pennsylvania
13 Federation of Sportsmen's Clubs.
14 REPRESENTATIVE SURRA: Then I would just
15 add, as an organization that's supposed to be
16 supportive of hunting and fishing opportunities, I
17 have grave concerns 20 or 30 years from now because
18 whoever's sitting in your chair is going to come to
19 this committee and say, Why didn't you people do
20 something, because I believe hunting is in serious
21 jeopardy in Pennsylvania and across the country. And
22 I think we need to look at things that we can do to
23 make it better. That's all.
24 And I know you're in a tough position. But
25 I want you to understand the position the legislators
42
1 are in on some of these issues, too. I would've loved
2 to have you walk around Elk County after this last
3 hunting season being an elected individual that sits
4 on the Game and Fish Committee.
5 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Thank you,
6 Representative. Any additional questions?
7 Representative McNaughton.
8 REPRESENTATIVE MCNAUGHTON: Thank you, Mr.
9 Chairman. Good morning, Melody. I have a question
10 concerning some of your testimony, Melody, relative to
11 the abdication of authority of the General Assembly to
12 the Game Commission, especially when it comes to
13 taxing authority. Consistently, we hear from
14 sportsmen that when there's a difficulty with the Game
15 Commission, they run to members of the General
16 Assembly. And the members of the General Assembly,
17 our hands are tied because it's an independent agency.
18 And frankly, the General Assembly really has very
19 little authority over the Game Commission.
20 It seems to me you're abdicating absolutely
21 no authority whatsoever over anything having to do
22 with the Game Commission, is that correct, because you
23 even want us to give up our ability to tax, abdicate
24 that to the Game Commission? Am I understanding that
25 correctly?
43
1 MS. ZULLINGER: No. I was just trying to
2 relay the differences in the way that, the way the
3 process is handled and just trying to point out the
4 fact that some of our members were afraid that other
5 issues will be held against them and they won't really
6 seriously be allowed to do the job that they're
7 supposed to do.
8 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Melody, I just want to
9 follow up and all the other individuals that are going
10 to testify on behalf of organizations. I am
11 interested from each organization of knowing how many
12 dues paying members there are and how the organization
13 came to the position that they're now taking or will
14 be taking at this hearing. So you're indicating how
15 many dues paid members?
16 MS. ZULLINGER: We have 333 affiliated
17 clubs that pay dues, which represents, which accounts
18 for about 97,000 sportsmen and women.
19 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: All right. And then
20 you indicated very well as to how you, how the
21 organization took its position which you had to
22 present at this time. Thank you, Melody.
23 Next to testify is Joel Rotz for the
24 Pennsylvania Farm Bureau.
25 MR. ROTZ: Good morning.
44
1 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Good morning, Joel.
2 You may proceed. We'll catch up to you.
3 MR. ROTZ: Okay. I am going to ad lib a
4 lot of my testimony in light of some of the discussion
5 that's already taken place and some of the
6 clarification of what you really want to hear today.
7 But I will say up front that we still believe these
8 issues are a little bit inseparable. So you are going
9 to hear about Sunday hunting. But I'll certainly do
10 my best to address the intent of House Bill 904.
11 Chairman Smith, members of the House Game
12 and Fisheries Committee, good morning. Pennsylvania
13 Farm Bureau is grateful for the opportunity to testify
14 today on House Bill 904. Pennsylvania Farm Bureau is
15 a grassroots volunteer organization representing
16 37,000 families in Pennsylvania. It's a little over
17 37,000. Sunday hunting, which I believe is
18 inseparable from this issue, is a concern of our
19 members who have long-standing policy that states the
20 present law not be amended to allow Sunday hunting.
21 Since obviously there are some very limited
22 forms of Sunday hunting already permitted in
23 Pennsylvania, our members further clarified Farm
24 Bureau's position on Sunday hunting last November with
25 another policy position stating there be no further
45
1 expansion of Sunday hunting. The latest policy
2 position came about due to concerns of our members
3 over increased activity by some hunters and some
4 legislators to further open Sunday to hunting. In
5 recognition of the specific intent of this bill to
6 allow the Game Commission to make determinations on
7 increasing Sunday hunting opportunities, I would say
8 this: While we have no policy directly related to
9 this issue, the perception exists that the discussion
10 alone is viewed as a step towards getting the camel's
11 nose under the tent, so to speak, to open Sunday
12 hunting.
13 I can tell you this: Our members believe
14 that longer seasons without Sunday hunting combined
15 with crop damage management programs such as DMAP and
16 Red Tag better address the management of wildlife and
17 the needs of landowners in the Commonwealth.
18 Mr. Lehman will talk more about the
19 specific concerns of farmers who own vast majority of
20 private land open for hunting. As much as
21 Representative Staback wishes to separate the issues
22 here today, we believe they are inseparable because
23 any conversation of change on how this issue is
24 managed raises the alarm in the countryside.
25 The Farm Bureau strongly disagrees with
46
1 those who say the prohibition of hunting on Sundays
2 should be repealed like the blue laws that prohibit
3 retail sales on Sunday. Unlike retail of the blue
4 laws, which was favored by the majority of retail
5 business owners, the majority of farm owners whose
6 lands would be impacted by Sunday hunting oppose the
7 elimination of restrictions on Sunday hunting.
8 Whether it's legislatively done or by the Game
9 Commission regulations, it does little good to open
10 Sunday hunting if the land you wish to hunt remains
11 closed.
12 And I guess I'd add to that before I turn
13 the microphone over to Mr. Lehman, that while we don't
14 have specific policy on 904, I can assure you, almost
15 undoubtedly assure you that when we have our annual
16 meeting this November, there probably would most
17 likely be policy coming out of our organization.
18 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Thank you, Joel. Do
19 you want to introduce your next speaker.
20 MR. ROTZ: Actually, I think his testimony
21 will introduce himself.
22 MR. LEHMAN: Good morning. And thank you
23 for this opportunity. My name is Wilmer Lehman. And
24 I am a farmer from Franklin County. I'm also a
25 hunter, also a landowner. And yes, I was on the
47
1 tractor last night when the sun went down. I'll
2 probably be there this evening when the sun goes down.
3 Thanks for this opportunity. I would like
4 to speak about concerns that many farmers have about
5 proposals to expand the scope of hunting on Sunday.
6 As Chairman of the Franklin County Farm
7 Bureau Wildlife Damage Control Committee, I
8 continually hear from Farm Bureau members and others
9 about concerns they have relating to hunting and
10 wildlife issues. To farmers, the discussions and
11 action by the House Game and Fisheries Committee
12 appears to be moving Pennsylvania towards Sunday
13 hunting, and it is of great concern to the farming
14 community. Currently, as you know, state laws
15 prohibits any hunting from being performed on Sunday
16 except for hunting crows, foxes, coyotes, and for
17 hunting that occurs in regulated hunting areas.
18 During Farm Bureau's state annual meeting
19 last November, farmers considered a policy resolution
20 that would have supported the allowance of groundhog
21 hunting on Sunday. Although groundhogs are a big
22 problem for most farmers, our delegates overwhelmingly
23 chose to keep our current policy of not supporting any
24 further expansion of Sunday hunting, including
25 groundhogs.
48
1 Although a policy change may have provided
2 some help to farmers suffering crop damage -- and
3 groundhogs do cause considerable damage to farm crops
4 and fields -- our members felt that Farm Bureau needed
5 to maintain a strong and consistent policy, policy
6 position in opposition to Sunday hunting. This alone
7 should give you a sense about how strongly farmers
8 feel about the issue. And our opinions have not
9 changed since last November.
10 While many farmers oppose Sunday hunting
11 because of religious beliefs, there are many other
12 significant reasons why Sunday hunting is opposed. We
13 ask that you weigh them heavily in your thinking and
14 discussion on this matter.
15 Unlike many other Pennsylvania residents,
16 farmers do not get weekends off. Our weekends must
17 include tending to livestock and farm animals, doing
18 emergency repairs and maintenance on our properties,
19 as well as other work required by our farm operations.
20 Sunday often offers a more relaxed schedule
21 when more time is spent with family members and
22 friends. On most weekends, you will find my children
23 and grandchildren and some of my neighbors using my
24 farm for recreational purposes. We know that during
25 hunting season, we have one day, Sunday, when there
49
1 will be no hunters around when everyone can go about
2 our business and recreational activities. Because
3 everyone in the family knows Sunday is off limits to
4 hunting, we have many outdoor activities going on at
5 our farm. Please remember, our farm is not a piece of
6 property. It is our home.
7 We ask to continue to have one day in the
8 week when we are able to use our properties during
9 hunting season without gunfire, trespassing hunters,
10 and other interruptions in our family life. Many
11 hunters don't plan ahead. Often, they wait until the
12 day they want to hunt to ask permission to be on one's
13 property. Others don't even ask. We need to be able
14 to use the property we call home for that one day
15 without the constant worry as to whether, or where
16 hunters are.
17 Because of those and other concerns, some
18 farmers have told me that their properties will be
19 posted if Sunday hunting is allowed, thereby denying
20 all access. It is not something the Farm Bureau would
21 encourage, but we understand why and how many farmers
22 would react that way.
23 Many would see a change to Sunday hunting
24 as absolute disregard for their legitimate rights and
25 concerns. After all, farmers frequently, farmers
50
1 frequently encourage strangers onto their property.
2 We tolerate the careless activity of some. And if
3 that isn't enough, we also feed the hunted game at our
4 own personal expense. In return, we ask for a day of
5 relative calm and safety. Farmers don't believe it is
6 an unreasonable expectation, particularly when we give
7 a lot in return.
8 We, like many farmers, welcome hunting.
9 But we also have reasonable rules. We want our
10 privacy and family time respected. I believe that a
11 move to Sunday hunting would drastically change for
12 the worse what my family has come to enjoy and
13 appreciate as part of family life.
14 I hope this gives you a good sense of what
15 many farmers think about the idea of Sunday hunting
16 and why we strongly oppose any expansion of it. Thank
17 you for sharing these thoughts.
18 I would also like to add that there is many
19 people in the farm community that don't join
20 organizations, Pennsylvania farmers, for religious
21 reasons; namely, the Amish and some parts of the
22 Mennonite faith, the more conservative ones. And
23 these are the ones that don't go to sportsmen's clubs.
24 These are the ones that you don't hear of. And their
25 reason for this is they believe in strict separation
51
1 of church and state and also from the society in
2 general. And Sunday is a very sacred day of
3 relaxation and renewal physically and spiritually for
4 them. And these are, standards are set by the church,
5 by their church. And so they will respond as a group.
6 It's not so much an individual matter to them. But
7 they have agreed the rules of their church are set.
8 If they break one of these rules and keep on breaking
9 them, they are apt to, their membership from their
10 church will be terminated.
11 And I say this simply to educate because
12 don't look at these groups if you think you can go and
13 persuade one or two to be different because they stick
14 together as a group because they decided as a group.
15 And as land prices get high in the southeast, south
16 central, and I guess other parts of the state, too,
17 they do move out to other areas. I am surprised at
18 the amount of people, or places I see these people
19 with roadside stands with their prayer veils on, the
20 Amish buggies in areas I would not expect to see them
21 20 years ago. These people are determined to keep on
22 farming because they believe this is a way of life for
23 them. And so don't overlook this that you don't see.
24 I was -- our extension office has programs.
25 And they say a lot of these people, the young boys
52
1 that attend tractor training courses and things like
2 this come from these conservative churches. So I
3 don't have any idea what percentages are or anything
4 like that. But it's a viable group that I think we
5 have to remember. Thank you.
6 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Thank you, both, for
7 your testimony. I just wanted to follow up. Some of
8 the members of the committee, some members of the Game
9 and Fisheries Committee were not members when we went
10 through six statewide hearings on Representative
11 Surra's bill in the past. And what we learned in a
12 meeting out west was that in Ohio, when they went to
13 Sunday hunting, the individuals who supported Sunday
14 hunting went to the Farm Bureau, who opposed it at
15 that time, and indicated what would it take to get the
16 Farm Bureau, or the, whatever the appropriate agency
17 is in Ohio, to support Sunday hunting? And they
18 learned that the Farm Bureau and farmers were
19 distressed and disappointed in the trespass laws and
20 fines in Ohio at that time.
21 What Ohio did was link together increased
22 fines for trespassing, increased regulations for
23 trespassing, severe penalties. And those two bills
24 went hand in hand so that the Farm Bureau went with
25 and supported Sunday hunting. Same thing happened in
53
1 Maryland. So most people aren't aware how weak and
2 poor our trespass laws are in Pennsylvania.
3 As you know, if somebody, if a hunter
4 trespasses on your land in Pennsylvania, the Game
5 Commission doesn't enforce it. You have to go to the
6 police. And if you don't have a local police force,
7 it's the State Police. And even the local police
8 aren't enthralled with enforcing trespass laws.
9 Could the Farm Bureau's stance be modified
10 if there were increased penalties for trespassing and
11 increased rules to protect your property?
12 MR. ROTZ: You may recall about a year ago,
13 I met with you and the Minority Chair and we talked
14 about this. And I indicated I would take that
15 discussion back to our members to see how our members
16 feel about an approach like that. Obviously, nothing
17 came back in the way of policy in support of such an
18 approach. In fact, what we seem to hear loud and
19 clear, with all due respect, was what part of no don't
20 you understand.
21 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: I'm going to yield to
22 Chairman Staback.
23 CHAIRPERSON STABACK: I'm more of an
24 optimist. Mr. Lehman, in your testimony on page
25 3 -- and I guess these are comments made regarding
54
1 reasons why you don't want hunters around on
2 Sunday -- you indicated, "Because of these and other
3 concerns, some farmers have told me that their
4 properties would be posted if Sunday hunting is
5 allowed, thereby denying all access."
6 Now, when you talk about posting land, are
7 we talking about posting it just against Sunday
8 hunting, or are you talking about posting their land
9 for all hunting?
10 MR. LEHMAN: I own between 2- and
11 300 acres. My property is posted on three sides, and
12 a lot of that is timber. Talking about deer hunting,
13 that makes it very difficult for me to control my
14 land. It wouldn't take a whole lot, after watching
15 one guy drive through a fence into my field, back out
16 to another location, to post it period. That may not
17 have answered your question, but that gives you --
18 CHAIRPERSON STABACK: No, you didn't.
19 We'll talk about your land. If Sunday hunting was
20 permitted in some fashion by the Game Commission, if
21 that possibility ever became a reality, no matter, no
22 matter what species they were willing to allow to be
23 hunted, whatever the case, Sunday hunting in some form
24 has been permitted we'll say, would you post your
25 land?
55
1 MR. LEHMAN: I probably would because of
2 the rest of the things that happened.
3 CHAIRPERSON STABACK: Now, would you post
4 it just against Sunday hunting or would you post it
5 against all hunting?
6 MR. LEHMAN: I would post it against all
7 general hunting. If they come and ask and I know the
8 person and I respect the person, I'll allow them to
9 hunt. I think hunting is a very good way to control
10 the wildlife. It works if you give us the tools. And
11 I appreciate the Game Commission in Pennsylvania here
12 for giving us the tools, and I think they've done a
13 great job.
14 CHAIRPERSON STABACK: That is a very good
15 answer. And I think all sportsmen, you know, should
16 ask permission of any landowner before they, they
17 decide to go on his property. That is not -- that was
18 a good answer.
19 MR. LEHMAN: A lot of them do. A lot of
20 them do. A certain percent of them don't.
21 CHAIRPERSON STABACK: I would like to think
22 that most Pennsylvania hunters are sportsmen and
23 gentlemen when it comes to that.
24 Now, additionally, in your statement, you
25 indicated in that same statement that it is not a
56
1 policy that the Farm Bureau would encourage. And that
2 would be the posting of land. Okay. Would the Farm
3 Bureau discourage the posting of land?
4 MR. ROTZ: Let me say -- let me answer the
5 question this way: It's clearly stated in the
6 testimony we would not encourage this type of
7 activity. At the same time, I believe our
8 organization is a very strong property rights
9 organization. And I guess I don't foresee us, unless
10 obviously we're policy driven, unless the members by
11 policy say that we should be against posting of land,
12 I don't see us getting involved in that side of the
13 discussion. That's the property owner's right to do.
14 CHAIRPERSON STABACK: But I'm talking the
15 Bureau as a whole. Would the Bureau as an
16 organization --
17 MR. ROTZ: And I thought I answered it as a
18 whole. Unless we would get policy direction from our
19 members that we should encourage landowners not to
20 post their land, I would not see us entering that side
21 of the debate.
22 CHAIRPERSON STABACK: Okay. Okay. Joel, I
23 guess -- in the recent past, there's been discussion
24 about the creation of a crop damage fund that would
25 reimburse farmers for damage caused by game animals.
57
1 The high amount of that figure showed just how much of
2 a fiscal impact deer damage particularly has in the
3 farm community.
4 Now, with that in mind, by opposing Sunday
5 hunting -- and I brought this up only because most of
6 your testimony centered on Sunday hunting. But by
7 opposing Sunday hunting as strongly; that is,
8 adamantly as the Bureau does, how do you respond to
9 those of us who are frustrated, who are unwilling to
10 allow the Game Commission to utilize any tool possible
11 to try to help resolve this problem that is facing
12 your membership?
13 MR. ROTZ: We believe there's plenty of
14 other opportunities to address that issue, longer
15 seasons without the Sundays. Again, we commend the
16 efforts of the Commission to work with our landowners
17 over the course of the last -- I've been at this job
18 for 10 years. And we have come so far in those 10
19 years. And I'll give the credit to, you know, to Mike
20 and Vern and Vern's predecessor. We've got some great
21 programs out there for landowners to help manage
22 their, their deer problems. It all goes back to they
23 just want that one day, one day of peace. I don't
24 know how else to further emphasize that.
25 CHAIRPERSON STABACK: Okay. I guess we're
58
1 going to be at loggerheads forever, you and I. Thank
2 you very much.
3 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: You gave up.
4 Representative Goodman.
5 REPRESENTATIVE GOODMAN: Thank you, Mr.
6 Chairman. Just a point of clarity here and for my
7 own benefit. House Bill 904 basically gives the
8 authorizations to the Game Commission to discuss. Is
9 the Farm Bureau more comfortable with the Game
10 Commission making that ultimate decision or the
11 members of the General Assembly?
12 MR. ROTZ: Well, again, I can't speak ahead
13 of my members on policy basis. But I would say this:
14 We have, without a doubt, have a long-standing record
15 of feeling that issues that can be science-based like
16 the management of deer should be in the hands of the
17 Game Commission. I mean, we constantly bring that
18 message, I believe, in front of the Commission that it
19 needs to be a science-based approach.
20 Again, with all due respect to the
21 Legislature, we don't believe you're scientists on
22 deer management. And we do understand the political
23 pressures you're under. So we would certainly bow to
24 hoping that the Commission's decisions would be made
25 based on the science that comes out of the Commission.
59
1 Having said that, I would also
2 recognize -- and I believe it was recognized
3 earlier -- that there's financial motives to having
4 Sunday hunting. And I can't see why the Game
5 Commission wouldn't be interested in stirring up some
6 new finances by having Sunday hunting. So then that
7 kind of takes the position that -- I realize I'm
8 playing both sides of -- it's a double-edged sort.
9 I'm playing both sides of the fence here. But then we
10 go back to, well, politically, we don't want this to
11 happen. So it's kind of good the Legislature has the
12 decision, at this point has the power.
13 REPRESENTATIVE GOODMAN: You're right where
14 we are. I mean, all of us would like to see expanded
15 opportunities for our hunters. Many of us like the
16 idea of possibly -- when you say Sunday hunting,
17 there's 52 Sundays in a year. But we know there are
18 not going to be 52 Sundays where hunters are out
19 there. Very possibly, we're talking about maybe two
20 Sundays during the rifle hunting season. Two Sundays
21 being able to give the people such a great opportunity
22 to go out and participate in, let's say, the rifle
23 part of it.
24 But I mean, you're exactly right. This is
25 not an easy issue. On the one hand, you want to
60
1 expand the opportunity. But on the other hand, we
2 don't want to disrupt farmers or landowners on a
3 Sunday, the one day of the week where they know that
4 there will not be anyone in the woods and they can
5 participate in other types of activity. That's
6 what -- if this was an easy problem, we would have
7 solved it by now. But I appreciate your input. Thank
8 you, sir.
9 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Representative Gergely.
10 REPRESENTATIVE GERGELY: Thank you, Mr.
11 Chairman. I'm an urban boy. I'm from Allegheny
12 County. And so Mr. Lehman, if you could educate me.
13 And you took some time at the end of your testimony
14 dealing with the Mennonite and Amish population,
15 correct? Could you explain to me, is it a religious,
16 are they against hunting religiously; is that correct?
17 Is that why you say they would post their lands?
18 Because -- are they -- is it all outdoor activities,
19 anything that involves outdoors or just specifically
20 hunting that they're against religiously? Could you
21 expand on that?
22 MR. LEHMAN: You mean on Sunday?
23 REPRESENTATIVE GERGELY: Yeah.
24 MR. LEHMAN: Yeah. All right. Yes. The
25 more conservative people are against anything that can
61
1 be done on Saturday or Monday. If you can do it on
2 Saturday or you can do it on Monday, you don't do it
3 on Sunday. Does that answer your question?
4 REPRESENTATIVE GERGELY: Pretty much. I
5 just -- although, I think that remembering the
6 testimony in Ohio, I think some of those sects also
7 hunt. And I know they fish in Pennsylvania. So I
8 don't know that that is such a situation -- I don't
9 know that that situation's that specific. If they
10 fish -- I know in Armstrong County, sometimes I see
11 them on the lakes on Sundays. So I didn't know if it
12 was all outdoor activities or it was just hunting that
13 that was specific to.
14 The other one is, Mr. Rotz, to follow up on
15 Neal's question was you talk about management and
16 science. We aren't scientists obviously. We're
17 legislators. And we shouldn't be -- that's why I
18 support Representative Staback's bill. If you're only
19 replacing, if you're only replacing 62 hunters for
20 every 100 you lose, this bill becomes a management
21 objective, not an issue for the Legislature because
22 you are adding a day for the remaining 62 hunters that
23 are going to replace us in the future to have strong
24 deer management objectives.
25 And when you talk about DMAP and Red Tag,
62
1 I'm sorry. Alpha hunters are the ones that use those
2 programs. They're always going to be hunters. We're
3 looking for those one-day-a-year hunters on Mondays,
4 maybe that first, second weekend to hunt, like Neal
5 said, two Sundays a year. I think we're not on the
6 same page here. I think you and I have the same
7 objective. I don't think you want to see us lose
8 hunters because your management of farms is going to
9 be significantly decreased.
10 So if that's the case, wouldn't it be more
11 manageable if you look at it from that perspective
12 that I'm proposing to you? Representative Staback's
13 bill addresses the management objectives more than
14 anything else because we're losing hunters. It gives
15 the Game Commission more tools to deal with this
16 issue.
17 MR. ROTZ: I guess I would concur that we'd
18 certainly be concerned about hunters, the number of
19 hunters in the future. However, I don't see where
20 that changes our position that we believe there's
21 plenty of management opportunities without opening the
22 Sunday hunting. I don't know what else to say other
23 than what part of no don't you understand. I mean, in
24 all due respect, that's what we hear loud and clear
25 back from the countryside.
63
1 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Representative Surra.
2 REPRESENTATIVE SURRA: Thank you, Mr.
3 Chairman. And thank you very much for your testimony.
4 I really appreciate your side of the issue. And
5 that's where I personally struggle with it because I
6 would like to expand the hunting opportunities, and
7 yet I have a lot of friends that are farmers and
8 members of your organization.
9 I would just ask that you keep an open mind
10 and look for some middle ground, if there is some,
11 such as expanded trespass laws and teeth in the
12 trespass law. And even possibly from your side, I
13 would see it as an opportunity for the Farm Bureau to
14 even look at the issue of reimbursement for crop
15 damage. I think, you know, historically, our farming
16 community in Pennsylvania has been very cooperative
17 with the Game Commission, very cooperative with
18 hunters. And I think we owe you a little bit. And I
19 think maybe you should take a look at that.
20 My question is, in the 39 other states that
21 have unlimited Sunday hunting, has the Farm Bureau
22 ever talked to other farm bureaus in those states to
23 look at their experience and what they find? Because
24 in the testimony where we, states that have recently
25 gone down this road in pilot projects, at the end of
64
1 the day, they did full-blown Sunday hunting because it
2 was, like, the problems weren't the big problem that
3 everybody thought it was going to be.
4 Have they ever reached out to other farm
5 bureaus in other states like Ohio, New York, Virginia
6 and said what's your experience?
7 MR. ROTZ: That's a good question. I know
8 personally when I had the discussion with both the
9 Majority and Minority Chair last year, I did talk to
10 Maryland Farm Bureau. And the response I recall
11 getting from Maryland Farm Bureau was at least at that
12 point in time the Sunday hunting that was agreed to
13 was in very specific counties. It was --
14 REPRESENTATIVE SURRA: Yeah. It's by
15 county in Maryland.
16 MR. ROTZ: And viewed as being very
17 narrowly put out there. And they weren't hearing any
18 problems. But they made the point that it was focused
19 on areas where there wasn't the resistance to begin
20 with. That's the extent of my knowledge of what's
21 happening in other states.
22 REPRESENTATIVE SURRA: Well, nothing would
23 stop us from doing something like that in
24 Pennsylvania; am I correct? I mean, if the Game
25 Commission decides what species, where, could you
65
1 possibly contact the Ohio Farm Bureau and other farm
2 bureaus in your free time and find out what their
3 experience is?
4 MR. ROTZ: No, we're certainly open to
5 that. And again, I tried to respond last year when we
6 had the initial discussion of that approach by our
7 members. I mean, we did, we did put in front of our
8 members exactly what the program was in Ohio and
9 Maryland and I believe New York. New York has -- and
10 again, you know, we just got this loud resounding no
11 from the countryside.
12 REPRESENTATIVE SURRA: I understand.
13 MR. ROTZ: But the answer to the question
14 is I think we're always open to keeping our members
15 informed of the ideas that are being kicked around.
16 It's ultimately they are going to make the decision on
17 whether we're going to be in a discussion, be involved
18 in any discussion.
19 REPRESENTATIVE SURRA: Well, if you could
20 look at it more maybe as an opportunity. I think
21 there -- look, we need, we need farms. Hunters need
22 farmers; farmers need hunters. And if we're going to
23 do this, we have to do it in a way that we can all
24 agree upon. Thank you for your testimony.
25 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Representative
66
1 Gillespie.
2 REPRESENTATIVE GILLESPIE: Thank you, Mr.
3 Chairman. Joel, of the 37,000 families that the Farm
4 Bureau represents, give us a feel for how many, what
5 percentage of the total farms in Pennsylvania that
6 represents. Do you have a feel for that?
7 MR. ROTZ: Oh, gee. That's -- I've never
8 been asked the question quite that way before.
9 REPRESENTATIVE GILLESPIE: How many total
10 farms are there?
11 MR. ROTZ: There's 52, I think if my
12 memory's correct, 52,000 farms in the state. In fact,
13 the latest census might push that up a little because
14 farms are getting smaller and more gentlemen type
15 farmers and that type of thing. So that's the answer
16 to that question. I'd like to think -- of course,
17 that's the number of farms. And of course, many
18 farmers own more than one farm. So I would like to
19 believe the vast majority of farms in the state of
20 Pennsylvania are in our membership.
21 REPRESENTATIVE GILLESPIE: Okay. And does
22 that or does that not include the Amish and Mennonite
23 sect? Do they typically belong to your organization?
24 MR. ROTZ: Wilmer made a good point about
25 how some of those sects work. We actually have been
67
1 picking up more and more of the plain sect in certain
2 areas of the state. And as Wilmer has indicated,
3 these are decisions that are made from the top of the
4 church rather than from individuals. So if the
5 particular bishop or leader of the church says it's
6 okay to join the Farm Bureau organization, then we'll
7 get a lot of members out of that particular group.
8 But otherwise, they remain distant.
9 REPRESENTATIVE GILLESPIE: Can I just -- I
10 mean, it's the third question; but it's a follow-up to
11 what he just said.
12 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Chairman Staback wants
13 another question, too. So go for it.
14 REPRESENTATIVE GILLESPIE: So in regards to
15 your answer to that, there are certain ones who do not
16 join, of the Amish and Mennonite sect who do not join
17 it because of religious philosophies?
18 MR. ROTZ: Correct.
19 REPRESENTATIVE GILLESPIE: Thank you.
20 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Chairman Staback, see
21 if you can keep your third question that short.
22 CHAIRPERSON STABACK: Joel, both you and
23 Mr. Lehman in your dialogue with Representative
24 Goodman praised the efforts of the Game Commission and
25 your ability to work with them on various issues in
68
1 the past. But earlier, you indicated that when you
2 did allude to House Bill 904 -- I think it may have
3 been the only time you alluded to it in your
4 testimony -- you did say that House Bill 904 raises
5 the alarm in the countryside.
6 Why would that be? What, what would the
7 farm community be afraid of with the Game Commission's
8 operation in the future with this kind of authority if
9 you have this kind of confidence that you do
10 currently?
11 MR. ROTZ: Well, two things come to mind
12 real quick. Just the fact it's related to Sunday
13 hunting and it's being raised is going to, going to
14 raise concern. I mean, you can't separate them. I'm
15 sorry. You just can't. You can say it's a totally
16 separate issue, but it's not. I mean, you're still
17 talking about ultimately more, the possibility of more
18 Sunday hunting. Okay? So that raises alarm.
19 And the other thing I think I mentioned
20 earlier is, you know, there is a profit motive here
21 for the Commission. And the landowners understand
22 that. And chances of getting a decision made from a
23 profit motive is there.
24 CHAIRPERSON STABACK: So you simply don't
25 believe that they should have this authority to manage
69
1 our game population seven days a week versus six?
2 MR. ROTZ: We don't have a policy
3 position --
4 CHAIRPERSON STABACK: If they do it six,
5 why not seven?
6 MR. ROTZ: We don't have a policy position
7 related to that specific, your specific issue and your
8 bill. I've stated that clearly.
9 CHAIRPERSON STABACK: That's what the bill
10 is, though.
11 MR. ROTZ: I understand that. But as -- I
12 would argue you can't separate that from the Sunday
13 hunting issue itself.
14 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Tying in with my
15 previous comments about trespassing while hunting, for
16 the information of the members and the Farm Bureau,
17 the Senate Game and Fisheries just passed Senate Bill
18 539 which increases the penalties for trespassing on
19 private property while hunting. So I think that's
20 something that the Farm Bureau should look at and the
21 members should be aware of. Thank you for your
22 testimony.
23 MR. ROTZ: Thank you.
24 MR. LEHMAN: Thank you.
25 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Next to testify is Ed
70
1 Wentzler, United Bow Hunters of Pennsylvania. Good
2 morning, Ed.
3 MR. WENTZLER: Good morning, sir.
4 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: You may proceed, sir.
5 MR. WENTZLER: Good morning, Chairman
6 Smith, Chairman Staback, members of the House Game and
7 Fisheries Committee. My name is Ed Wentzler. I'm
8 legislative director for and speaking on behalf of the
9 United Bow Hunters of Pennsylvania. We appreciate the
10 opportunity to speak here and the invitation to
11 testify.
12 I apologize that there are only 10 copies
13 there. But I can assure you gentlemen my computer,
14 seven years old, crashed for the last time this
15 morning at about 4:30 a.m. And I know, Chairman,
16 you're an English teacher. They're not even edited
17 yet.
18 In 2004 -- and I'll probably reiterate a
19 lot of other testimony that's been here. In 2004, we
20 polled our membership. There were five questions.
21 This was early 2004. The poll included five questions
22 on five different facets of Sunday hunting. This is
23 the second poll we've done since I have, in the
24 11 years I have worked for this organization. The
25 statistics that came in after the poll closed were not
71
1 different from those included in the poll. Weight
2 responses and other inputs were not included.
3 On the question of Sunday hunting, any
4 Sunday hunting and whether our organization supports
5 it might come before the General Assembly, the
6 response was 69 percent in favor. There was a
7 question on Sunday hunting statewide. And it was
8 phrased should it be statewide or segmented.
9 Sixty-eight percent were in favor of statewide
10 hunting. Sunday hunting by permission only on private
11 land, the response was 58 percent favorable.
12 On the question of Sunday hunting on
13 private land with permission only, our membership was
14 53 percent opposed. And on the question of Sunday
15 hunting on public land only, the response was
16 62 percent in opposition.
17 We had a lot of write-in comments on the
18 poll cards that did come in. You can see them listed
19 in this report. Most -- more recreational time afield
20 for families with frequent mention of school age
21 hunters, Sunday hunting for archers only.
22 A lot of the comments did not generally
23 support Sunday hunting but stated that if it was
24 legalized, it should be statewide. And if Sunday
25 hunting was legalized, it's still a personal choice to
72
1 hunt or not. A lot of people did notate that on their
2 cards. And Sunday hunting would help manage the deer
3 herd.
4 More recreational time afield topped the
5 list of comments, with Sunday hunting for archers only
6 being a very close second. The latter should not be
7 surprising given that our membership represents bow
8 hunters. However, we were surprised that even those
9 of our membership opposed to Sunday hunting reiterated
10 often and at every occasion it should be statewide if
11 legalized at all.
12 Once this survey was tallied, the UBP board
13 of directors voted unanimously to adopt a supporting
14 position for anything to advance Sunday hunting. That
15 is my job as the legislative director. And I was so
16 directed to pursue at every opportunity. We see that
17 this legislation does move us to the point where it is
18 going to be regulated by the agency that regulates our
19 wildlife. It makes total sense to us.
20 It is the opinion of the UBP Sunday hunting
21 is long overdue here in the Commonwealth. Our tally,
22 Representative Surra, shows that 48 states now will
23 have some form of Sunday hunting, which include all
24 but one of those that touch Pennsylvania's borders.
25 Sunday hunting allows increased opportunity
73
1 for adult hunters who find vacation time difficult or
2 impossible to schedule during some hunting seasons.
3 Perhaps more importantly, it provides additional
4 opportunity afield for our junior hunters whose
5 schooling and extracurricular activities often
6 preclude participation, even on Saturdays. And I
7 think we all know about the sports. It used to be
8 one, football. Now there's five in the fall.
9 Speaking in terms of our, one of our
10 organization's primary objectives, that of increased
11 opportunity for Pennsylvania bow hunters, legalized
12 Sunday hunting would provide bow hunters with much
13 needed additional time in which to pursue the most
14 difficult and challenging method of harvesting
15 white-tailed deer. The issue is an especially
16 important objective to us when our membership reminds
17 us that out of 38 states currently allowing
18 white-tailed, bow hunting for while-tailed deer,
19 Pennsylvania ranks quite near the bottom. If I'm not
20 mistaken, we're second from the bottom in the number
21 of legal hunting days. We think the members of this
22 committee and perhaps the entire Legislature might be
23 surprised in how many Commonwealth sportsmen are
24 choosing to spend both their time and money in
25 bordering states which do offer that two-day hunting
74
1 weekend, especially in light of fuel costs these days.
2 It should be noted that we do understand
3 absolutely that the intent and language of 904 places
4 the authority to establish Sunday hunting
5 opportunities with the Board of Commissioners,
6 Pennsylvania Game Commission. We support the
7 legislation. We also remind all interested parties at
8 every opportunity for conversation that a regulation
9 permitting Sunday hunting in no way prevents an
10 individual from choosing not to participate or a
11 landowner from disallowing Sunday hunting on their
12 land if they so prefer.
13 Thank you for the opportunity to testify.
14 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Thank you for your
15 testimony, Ed. I have a feeling that Chairman Staback
16 won't be cross-examining you as long as he did the
17 previous two speakers. I think you answered most of
18 the questions that I would ask except how many members
19 belong to your organization?
20 MR. WENTZLER: Presently, we have 3,873
21 members. That information is accurate as of this past
22 Sunday. We had a membership tally. And it should be
23 noted that we are also, approximately 1,200 members
24 have just received renewal notices. Our membership
25 fluctuates as a rule between 4,000 and, during times
75
1 of crisis, 6,000.
2 I'd also like to mention that approximately
3 1,800 of our members are life members. So the
4 fluctuation -- we keep a base number that that other
5 membership revolves as -- and they -- ironically, most
6 of them are people under 40 years of age. Not the
7 life members. Life members are my age and older.
8 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: I won't comment on
9 that. I'll yield to Chairman Staback.
10 CHAIRPERSON STABACK: Ed, is your
11 organization a part of the Federation of Sportsmen's
12 Clubs?
13 MR. WENTZLER: No, we are not.
14 CHAIRPERSON STABACK: You are not. Okay.
15 That was my only question. Thank you.
16 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Representative Gergely.
17 REPRESENTATIVE GERGELY: Mr. Wentzler,
18 thank you. Prior to this year's survey, how many
19 years prior have you surveyed for Sunday hunting; and
20 what were the results of those surveys?
21 MR. WENTZLER: The other survey was done
22 in, I'm going to say '94 or '95, I believe. And the
23 numbers were different. Pretty generally opposed.
24 Not as wide as some of the statistics that I have
25 heard here. I do not have those figures with me. If
76
1 I had to take a guess, I would say that it was
2 60 percent opposed, 40 in favor. And it has swung
3 that far.
4 REPRESENTATIVE GERGELY: You've found that
5 then there's been a -- similar to what I commented
6 earlier on the polls have been unscientific. Yours is
7 a little more specific to archery hunters. They're
8 getting to be fairly accurate across the state. I
9 agree. I put a bill out last year in the last
10 session -- I haven't done it this year -- which
11 addressed urban areas. I think it was more or less
12 for archery in Sunday hunting. I didn't have that
13 discussion with the Farm Bureau but I will with you
14 because we have issues in urban areas like Allegheny
15 County and counties around Philadelphia with deer
16 vehicle collisions, lyme disease, overbrowsing
17 constantly on properties.
18 And giving House Bill 904 that, you know,
19 giving that consideration and adding it to Sunday
20 hunting I think gives the archer those areas in
21 special reg places because it's such a harder sport.
22 My sport, my love is archery. And I just wondered if
23 you concur with that? Do you think that would really
24 be significant in the special regulation areas
25 especially?
77
1 MR. WENTZLER: Candidly, I like the idea.
2 But I could not officially comment without taking the
3 idea back to the organization.
4 REPRESENTATIVE GERGELY: All right.
5 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Representative Surra.
6 REPRESENTATIVE SURRA: Thank you, Mr.
7 Chairman. Thank you for your testimony and your
8 agency's support. Do you have any, any thoughts or
9 any ideas on what we can do, what sportsmen can do and
10 what this committee can do to, to bring the farming
11 community on board on this issue? Because they have
12 some legitimate concerns. And like I mentioned to
13 them, it does not seem to be the big problem in other
14 states where they do this. But do you have
15 any -- does your group have any ideas what we can do
16 to --
17 MR. WENTZLER: No, we don't, quite frankly.
18 REPRESENTATIVE SURRA: Thank you.
19 MR. WENTZLER: We are working with
20 education. And of course, our organization, from the
21 time I joined 20-some years ago, we have been giving
22 little permission cards to describe who the individual
23 hunter is. It's verified by the organization.
24 They've kind of fallen into disuse lately. But our
25 organization has always promoted the individual hunter
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1 having a very strong rapport with the individual
2 landowner. And we consider that to be an educational,
3 ongoing educational process. Quite honestly, my board
4 thinks that it's a matter of time more than anything
5 else.
6 REPRESENTATIVE SURRA: Well, archery is
7 certainly a lot less intrusive. And basically, you
8 don't even know archery season's going on sometimes
9 other than seeing some vehicles parked out and about.
10 But what's your thoughts on, on possibly assisting,
11 assisting farmers with crop damage?
12 MR. WENTZLER: Financially?
13 REPRESENTATIVE SURRA: Yes.
14 MR. WENTZLER: That's out of my realm also.
15 I would have to do a lot of research on the finances
16 involved and where that, where those dollars are
17 coming from. Right now, we're looking at trying to
18 get the agency funded again. That's going to take a
19 while I'm sure.
20 REPRESENTATIVE SURRA: Thank you.
21 MR. WENTZLER: You're welcome.
22 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Thank you, Ed, for your
23 testimony and also for being part of the coalition of
24 sportsmen's organizations trying to formulate a
25 starting point for a hunting license increase. As we
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1 all know, the Game Commission is in dire financial
2 straits.
3 MR. WENTZLER: Thank you.
4 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Thank you. Next person
5 to testify is Hugh Downing from Keystone Trails.
6 Hugh, you may proceed, sir.
7 MR. DOWNING: Thank you, Representative
8 Smith, Representative Staback, members of the
9 committee. I thank you for the opportunity to appear
10 before you today. My name is Hugh Downing. I live
11 near Pittsburgh. And I'm the president of the
12 Keystone Trails Association.
13 For those of you not familiar with our
14 organization, the Keystone Trails Association, or KTA,
15 is a federation of membership organizations and
16 individuals dedicated to providing, preserving,
17 protecting, and promoting recreational hiking
18 opportunities in Pennsylvania and representing the
19 interests and concerns of the Pennsylvania hiking
20 community.
21 The association is an all-volunteer, public
22 service organization. At last count, the combined
23 membership of our organizations totalled well over
24 30,000.
25 Now, to give you a little more -- you were
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1 asking about organizations. We have about 50 member
2 organizations. Those 50 member organizations involve
3 about 30,000 hikers. We also have about 1,000
4 individual members. We're run by a council which is
5 made up of one representative from each member
6 organization plus 12 representatives at large which
7 comes from the individual members.
8 We also feel that we represent the
9 interests of those many thousands of hikers who do not
10 belong to organized groups or who come here from out
11 of state to enjoy the more than 3,000 miles of
12 wonderful hiking trails that our Commonwealth has to
13 offer.
14 KTA was founded 49 years ago here in
15 Central Pennsylvania and has grown to become a
16 statewide organization. Our objectives include
17 developing, building, and maintaining hiking trails,
18 including trail support facilities; protecting hiking
19 trail lands through support and advocacy; and the
20 education of the public in the responsible use of
21 trails and the natural environment. We publish hiking
22 guides and maps, offer a quarterly newsletter, and
23 maintain a website to keep hikers informed.
24 Ten weekends each year for three week-long
25 sessions in the summer, our volunteer trail care
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1 maintainers work on footpaths across the state,
2 keeping them in shape for any and all who walk in the
3 woods, including those who hunt and fish. All of this
4 work is done on public lands. KTA has purchased and
5 maintains all of the equipment required for these
6 outings with its own funds and with a small onetime
7 grant of $13,000 from DCNR. We maintain close
8 relationships with the Bureaus of Forestry and State
9 Parks as well as the Game Commission.
10 Many of our finest hiking trails traverse
11 game lands along their routes. The Mid-State Trail,
12 the Link Trail, and the North Country Trail are just
13 three. Many hunters are grateful for the trails that
14 hikers have built when it comes time to drag their
15 deer or bear back to the nearest parking lot.
16 In 1998, in recognition of our efforts,
17 DCNR chose KTA as its conservation volunteer group of
18 the year acknowledging the work done in state forests
19 and parks by KTA volunteer trail care crews.
20 Last fall, the KTA Council reaffirmed its
21 opposition to any legislation which would change the
22 current regulations with regard to hunting on Sundays
23 in Pennsylvania. We realize that the legislation
24 under consideration here today will not, if passed,
25 automatically result in Sunday hunting. As we
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1 understand it, the legislation would eliminate that
2 portion of the legal code which currently prohibits
3 Sunday hunting, thereby enabling the Game Commission
4 to either permit or prohibit Sunday hunting simply
5 through the regulatory process.
6 The Game Commission's constituency is
7 smaller and more focused than that of the Legislature,
8 consisting almost entirely of hunters. The likelihood
9 of the Game Commission allowing Sunday hunting, while
10 not guaranteed, is certainly high. On the other hand,
11 the Legislature's constituency includes every
12 Pennsylvanian. And it is this larger constituency
13 that we are asking you to consider in rejecting this
14 legislation.
15 We feel that permitting hunting on Sundays
16 would be dangerous and unfair not only to hikers but
17 also to the tens of thousands of others who seek
18 recreation in Penn's Woods: Photographers, bird
19 watchers, picnickers, pet owners, cross-country
20 skiers, mountain bikers, and equestrians, to name but
21 a few. Allowing Sunday hunting would force these
22 people, this larger constituency, to stay at home on
23 the one day a week currently available to them for
24 hunting-free recreation.
25 We do not oppose hunting. Many of our
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1 members are also hunters. And we are also aware of
2 the important economic benefits that hunting brings to
3 our state. But hiking and the other outdoor
4 activities mentioned above involve a much wider
5 participation than does hunting. Of the approximately
6 12 million residents of Pennsylvania, there are about
7 1 million hunters.
8 A 2001 report by the US Fish and Wildlife
9 Service showed that there are nearly 3.8 million
10 wildlife watching participants, a group that would
11 certainly include hikers, in Pennsylvania, more than
12 three and a half times as many as hunters. And if you
13 add in the number of nonresident wildlife watching
14 participants, there are nearly 4.7 times more wildlife
15 watchers than hunters.
16 In addition, according to this same report,
17 during the same period, wildlife watchers in
18 Pennsylvania spent nearly 20 million more than did
19 hunters, 962 million for wildlife watchers, 941
20 million for hunters. It is this larger constituency
21 that we are asking you to consider.
22 The forest cannot be all things to all
23 people at the same time. Many hikers avoid hunter
24 interference by scheduling the vast majority of their
25 hikes on Sundays and leaving the woods to the hunters
84
1 for the rest of the week. We consider Sundays to be
2 the prime day for our sport.
3 Families encompassing all ages, genders,
4 and fitness levels seek outdoor recreation in our
5 forests and parks to enjoy wildlife, both game and
6 nongame, to take our children into the great outdoors,
7 and to enjoy the peace and quiet the forests have to
8 offer. And Sunday is often the only day available to
9 them for these activities. This is the constituency
10 that we are asking you to consider.
11 With the growing emphasis on eco-tourism
12 expressed by Governor Rendell and others and the
13 initiation of such programs such as PA Wilds, which
14 encourage wildlife watching and the economic benefits
15 that come with it, it would seem that enabling Sunday
16 hunting would be counterproductive to these efforts.
17 We urge you to oppose any legislation which
18 might result in the opening of Pennsylvania lands to
19 Sunday hunting. Hunters have the woods for six days a
20 week. Please keep one day safe and available for the
21 rest of us, the larger constituency. Thank you.
22 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Thank you, Hugh, for
23 your testimony. You have some very interesting
24 thoughts that have not yet been expressed. And one of
25 which I'm well aware of because I did a constituent
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1 survey in the past on my constituents' reaction to
2 expanding Sunday hunting in Pennsylvania. And over
3 70 percent of my constituents oppose Sunday hunting
4 expansion in Pennsylvania. And before Ed says
5 something, I did put your bill in my latest
6 questionnaire; and I don't have the results yet.
7 But I think that we and most of the
8 committee members are hunters. At the most, you would
9 say that only 10 percent of Pennsylvania's population
10 are, consist of hunters, only 10 percent. But I think
11 that all of us would agree that the 90 percent of
12 nonhunters are quite tolerant and understanding of the
13 hunting tradition in Pennsylvania. And expansion of
14 Sunday hunting could be a severe public relations
15 disaster for hunters.
16 And I think what you mentioned,
17 specifically the Game Commission's constituency is
18 smaller -- it's just a million hunters -- and more
19 focused than that of the Legislature because the Game
20 Commission's constituency is almost entirely hunters.
21 The likelihood of the Game Commission allowing Sunday
22 hunting, while not guaranteed, is certainly high. I
23 think that's an excellent observation and one that all
24 committee members should be aware of. And I commend
25 you for your testimony.
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1 I may have missed it. But you took a
2 specific vote on this particular bill or not?
3 MR. DOWNING: Not on 904 itself. I don't
4 even know if 904 existed at the time of our last
5 meeting. But -- and it may have been the previous
6 legislation which we were discussing. But it was any
7 legislation that would open up public lands to Sunday
8 hunting.
9 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Chairman Staback.
10 CHAIRPERSON STABACK: Okay. Mr. Downing,
11 in your testimony, you indicated that Sundays would be
12 dangerous, right? Now, Pennsylvania, in my opinion,
13 is probably one of the safest hunting states that we
14 have in the entire country.
15 Why do you believe -- do you have any
16 stats, any numbers, any figures that you can fall back
17 on that would tell me why Sunday hunting would be
18 dangerous?
19 MR. DOWNING: Well, the simple answer is
20 no, I don't. But it's just that if people are
21 shooting guns, the opportunity for accidents exist.
22 And if they're not shooting guns on Sunday, the
23 opportunity is reduced. So that's why we
24 stay -- during hunting seasons, we advise our hikers
25 just give the woods to the hunters. Stay home. Let
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1 them have it.
2 CHAIRPERSON STABACK: They're shooting guns
3 six days a week, and we're still one of the safest
4 hunting states in the entire country.
5 MR. DOWNING: It's comforting to know that,
6 yes.
7 CHAIRPERSON STABACK: Well, it is. It is.
8 That's factual. So I think, I think it's probably a
9 misstatement on your part, your organization's part to
10 simply assume, assume that if Sunday hunting is
11 allowed in any way, shape, or form, that that is going
12 to be an imminent danger to anyone, anyone else in the
13 area of the woods. First off, we're not talking
14 about, we're not talking about legalizing Sunday
15 hunting at all --
16 MR. DOWNING: I understand.
17 CHAIRPERSON STABACK: -- in House Bill 904.
18 You understand that. Your description of it in your
19 testimony is right on the money. It's very, very
20 accurate. So we don't know what the Game Commission
21 is liable to do with this authority.
22 You indicated that simply because of the
23 fact that the Board of Commissioners and the people
24 involved with the Commission are all hunters, that
25 that certainly would put the idea of Sunday hunting in
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1 the forefront and it would be high on their radar
2 screen to try to do something with it. I disagree
3 with you. That's not necessarily so. And I think the
4 recent decision of the Board of Commissioners
5 regarding the manner and the number of doe permits
6 that they allocated, right, is testament to that.
7 There were a number of people who disagreed with the
8 manner in which they were going to do that. There
9 were a number of people, including me, who disagreed
10 with the, with the numbers that they were going to
11 allocate to various Wildlife Management Units. We
12 expressed that opinion to them, but it didn't shake
13 them at all. They held to their guns. And they did
14 what they thought they were doing was the right thing
15 to do, and that's what they wound up doing.
16 So to insinuate in some way that there is
17 going to be excessive legislative pressure to push
18 them in that direction I think also is, is wrong on
19 your part. Thank you.
20 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: I was trying to follow
21 that. You weren't saying that the Game Commission was
22 right in the antlerless allocation but they had the
23 right to do it, correct?
24 CHAIRPERSON STABACK: Absolutely.
25 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Representative Gergely.
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1 REPRESENTATIVE GERGELY: Thank you, Mr.
2 Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Downing, for taking the time
3 to come up to Pittsburgh. Let me go back to
4 Representative Staback's, my chairman's, some of
5 his -- statistically, I haven't heard from the other
6 40 states that I'm sure have trail associations also,
7 that they're out there trying to ban Sundays because
8 of all the injuries and wounds that they're receiving
9 from hunters. I'm going to assume that right now. I
10 know it's not happening. And let me form my question
11 around that.
12 Secondly, the DCNR did a tourism study, Mr.
13 Downing. And the tourism study or outdoor travel
14 study verifies what I think almost all of us assume
15 that are hunters. In November, December, and January,
16 it's the least amount of tourism that occurs in the
17 outdoors in Pennsylvania. So you get my game lands
18 for nine and a half months every day of the week. I'm
19 a hunter. I want my game lands or at least see -- I
20 think everybody misses the point. That doesn't mean I
21 hunt every Sunday. I don't fish every Sunday. I
22 don't wake up and fish every Sunday because I'm
23 allowed to, but I would certainly like the opportunity
24 to. And nobody ever gets injured archery hunting.
25 And if you just talk about two Sundays a year -- I
90
1 think your relationship with us is missing. And when
2 you talk about 3 percent in November and 4 percent in
3 December and 2 percent in January of travel and
4 tourism in the outdoors, you're actually hurting our
5 economy. Is that where you're coming from? Because
6 of, you know, the 40 states that have it, you're
7 statistically quoting them with all of the injuries?
8 MR. DOWNING: No. No. I don't have access
9 to that. What you're saying, you're talking about two
10 Sundays. I assume you're referring to deer season.
11 But if you open Sunday hunting for deer, then aren't
12 turkey hunters going to want it and small game people
13 going to want it and the bear hunters going to want
14 it? It's as the other folks said. I think it's the
15 camel's nose under the tent syndrome.
16 I would suggest extending the season by two
17 weeks and thereby giving another 12 days, including
18 two Saturdays, of opportunity for hunting. So hunting
19 is a wonderful resource for --
20 REPRESENTATIVE GERGELY: Mr. Downing, thank
21 you. So you'd like to increase the hunting seasons.
22 Therefore, you mean you would like to keep your bird
23 watchers and trail walkers out of the woods longer for
24 us hunters. Is that what you're saying?
25 MR. DOWNING: We'd like to preserve our
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1 Sundays.
2 REPRESENTATIVE GERGELY: And so you'd be
3 willing to give up your Saturdays through Fridays or
4 your --
5 MR. DOWNING: If that's what it would take.
6 I would say a few extra days rather than 52 Sundays,
7 yes.
8 REPRESENTATIVE GERGELY: Well, we don't
9 hunt 52 weeks a year. That's my point. We only hunt
10 three months a year. Most of those hunting -- and I
11 think the wounds, or your concerns with high powered
12 rifles on -- so I think it's an education process.
13 And I'm willing to sit down with you in Pittsburgh to
14 spend more time on this. I think we can cooperatively
15 share the woods together in a good manner. Thank you.
16 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Representative Goodman.
17 REPRESENTATIVE GOODMAN: Thank you, Mr.
18 Chairman. Really, Representative Gergely hit the
19 point that I was going to, I was going to hit. Many
20 of our finest hiking trails traverse game lands along
21 their routes. Game lands were purchased by hunters.
22 MR. DOWNING: Right.
23 REPRESENTATIVE GOODMAN: There seems to be
24 a misconception in the general public that game lands
25 are like state parks. State parks are purchased with
92
1 taxpayers' dollars, but game lands are purchased by
2 hunters. And when it comes down to who has the
3 ultimate authority and who has the right to be on
4 those properties, it's hunters.
5 MR. DOWNING: You're right.
6 REPRESENTATIVE GOODMAN: Now, we allow
7 equestrians and bike riders and everybody else to go
8 onto those game lands because we're nice guys. But
9 when it comes down to who has the right to be on those
10 game lands, it's the hunter. So -- and you ended by
11 saying, "We urge you to oppose any legislation which
12 might result in the opening of Pennsylvania lands on
13 Sunday hunting. Hunters have the woods for six days
14 of the week. Please keep one day safe and available
15 for the rest of us."
16 You know, rifle season in Pennsylvania
17 starts the first Monday after Thanksgiving. The first
18 Saturday -- first Sunday that would be available for
19 hunting is in December. I really don't think a lot of
20 your hikers are out hiking in December.
21 MR. DOWNING: You'd be surprised.
22 REPRESENTATIVE GOODMAN: I might be
23 surprised. But I don't think it is the 3.8 million
24 wildlife watchers that you quote here. And it says
25 that the US Fish and Wildlife Service shows that there
93
1 are nearly 3.8 million. How does the US Fish and
2 Wildlife Service define a wildlife watching
3 participant?
4 MR. DOWNING: Well, do you want me to read
5 you chapter and verse?
6 REPRESENTATIVE GOODMAN: Please.
7 MR. DOWNING: They observe wildlife. They
8 photograph wildlife. They feed wildlife. They
9 include wild bird observers.
10 REPRESENTATIVE GOODMAN: And are these
11 people who are actively hiking at the time?
12 MR. DOWNING: Well, you got to walk to get
13 into the woods.
14 REPRESENTATIVE GOODMAN: I'm just curious
15 because I always love how people throw numbers around.
16 I know there's almost a million hunters in the state.
17 We know that by the licenses that are -- and I'm not
18 trying to in any way -- I mean, those 3.8 million
19 wildlife watchers are our allies because you say right
20 here that we do not oppose hunting and that many
21 people that participate in our sport are hunters.
22 I've used your trails. They're very nice.
23 And I appreciate the way you guys keep them. I was
24 just curious with that 3.8 million wildlife watchers
25 participants. I just wanted to remind you, sir, that
94
1 the game lands are open to your hikers as a courtesy
2 of Pennsylvania hunters. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
3 MR. DOWNING: Right. And when we go to
4 build trails on game lands, we get the permission of
5 the game, the local game manager to do that. And I
6 even have a, a message here from an E-mail from 2002
7 in which one of our trails, the Mid-State Trail
8 Association is requesting the opportunity to put a
9 trail in on State Game Lands 37. And this was Roland
10 Berger at the time, who was chief of the Bureau of
11 Land, one of the chiefs in the Bureau of Land
12 Management in the Game Commission. And he replies, We
13 have no objection to the trail going through the game
14 lands, but we'd recommend some modifications to your
15 original proposal. We would like to see the trail
16 extended into the north.
17 He wants to see this trail, our hiking
18 group build a trail into a section of the game lands
19 toward the ridge between Tioga Dam and Ives Run where
20 no trail currently exists. It's one of the most
21 inaccessible areas of the game lands, an area where
22 many hunters have gotten lost in the past. It's an
23 area many hunters avoid because a slight change in
24 direction can put them in the wrong hollow, bringing
25 them out miles from their vehicle. Hopefully a trail
95
1 in this area would encourage more hunters in these
2 areas and help improve the deer harvest in this game
3 lands.
4 So we like the Game Commission. We like
5 the game lands. And yes, the Representative mentioned
6 we do get to actually use the game lands more than the
7 hunters do really in many ways. It's the -- we just
8 are a little antsy about going out on Sundays during,
9 when high powered rifles are being used.
10 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Thank you, Mr. Downing,
11 for your excellent testimony. And I would emphasize
12 to all the members that individuals testifying on
13 behalf of organizations, even if you don't agree with
14 the organization's position, I think that we have to
15 respect them for polling their members, having the
16 courage to appear before this committee even though
17 their views might be contrary to committee members'
18 views. And Mr. Downing, you displayed a lot of
19 courage today. Thank you for your testimony.
20 MR. DOWNING: Thank you very much.
21 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Next individual to
22 testify is John Pawlowski, Pennsylvania State Archery
23 Association. Unfortunately, he had an emergency and
24 had to leave. He was here. I want his testimony to
25 be part of the record, and the stenographer has it.
96
1 If you'd make his testimony part of the record. And
2 just to state it briefly and succinctly, PSAA supports
3 House Bill 904.
4 The next individual to testify is Norm
5 Aten, Philadelphia Rod and Gun Club.
6 MR. ATEN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
7 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Time out, Norm. Time
8 out. I'm very confused because when you called or
9 when I was informed, you were going to testify for
10 Philadelphia Rod and Gun Club. Are you testifying for
11 them?
12 MR. ATEN: The information that I relayed
13 was the Philadelphia County Chapter of the
14 Pennsylvania Federation of Sportsmen's Clubs. We are
15 an independent organization. If you'd rather I not
16 testify, that would be fine, sir.
17 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Well, I'm very
18 disturbed because I spoke to somebody else who wanted
19 to testify for the Pennsylvania Federation of
20 Sportsmen's Clubs.
21 MR. ATEN: Well, actually, there are two of
22 them as well. There is some confusion in names there,
23 sir.
24 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Lots of confusion. And
25 I want you to know that when they asked, I said we
97
1 already have testimony from the Pennsylvania
2 Federation of Sportsmen's Clubs. And if I allowed the
3 Philadelphia chapter to testify, then I've got to let
4 the York chapter --
5 MR. ATEN: Actually, we aren't even
6 associated with them currently. As I understand it,
7 our dues are in arrears. We are actually no different
8 than, say, the Northern York County Game and Fish
9 Association or any other independent club in the
10 state. If you'd rather just take my written
11 testimony, that would be fine.
12 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: I'm uncomfortable
13 because I turned somebody else down from the
14 Philadelphia County chapter.
15 MR. ATEN: I understand. If you'd like to
16 keep everything fair, I appreciate that, too.
17 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: I will make your
18 remarks, which are prepared, part of the record and
19 give them to the stenographer so that you are getting
20 something that I shouldn't even be giving you. But
21 Chairman Staback has indicated that he made the
22 mistake. I apologize, sir.
23 The next individual is Dave Laden,
24 Pennsylvania Fish and Game Protective Association. I
25 certainly hope you're testifying for the Pennsylvania
98
1 Fish and Game Protective Association.
2 MR. LADEN: Yes. And I know what you were
3 talking about before.
4 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: You may proceed, Dave.
5 MR. LADEN: Thank you. I am David Laden,
6 president of the Pennsylvania State Fish and Game
7 Protective Association, Pennsylvania's oldest
8 sportsmen's organization, founded in 1854, and one of
9 the original founders of the Pennsylvania Game
10 Commission.
11 We want to express our appreciation to the
12 Chairman and members of this committee for holding
13 this hearing and giving us an opportunity to partake
14 in the democratic process and publicly express our
15 strongly held opinion that Sunday hunting is an idea
16 whose time has come and that this bill should be
17 enacted.
18 I would also note -- and I think I'll skip
19 this little paragraph. But I'll -- well, I won't.
20 I've been asked also by the board of directors of a
21 club that's very large, 4,000 members, to tell you
22 that they also concur.
23 Six years ago, you held hearings all over
24 the state and heard virtually every argument, both pro
25 and con, that could possibly be made. We particularly
99
1 remember the testimony of the wildlife biologist from
2 the New York State equivalent of the PGC who noted the
3 graying of the hunting population and predicted a
4 sharp reduction in hunters as the baby boom generation
5 aged.
6 The United States Fish and Wildlife Service
7 funded a study entitled "Factors Relating to Hunting
8 and Fishing Participation in the United States." It
9 stated the obvious: As age increases, participation
10 in hunting decreases and that only 3 percent of
11 hunters are over 64.
12 This negative prediction is beginning to
13 manifest itself. Despite the growth in Pennsylvania's
14 population since 1999, sales of hunting licenses have
15 actually decreased. He also informed us that New York
16 instituted Sunday hunting in stages without incident
17 and that the dire threats to post land never
18 materialized. The devastating demographic problems
19 that beset Social Security will also impact
20 Pennsylvania wildlife management also with equal
21 certainty and also in the very near future.
22 Why not close the barn door before the
23 horse gets out? If deer are to be managed in an
24 efficient way, if deer are to be managed by hunting,
25 then this artificial and anachronistic impediment to
100
1 hunter participation, to hunter recruitment, to hunter
2 retention, this artificial impediment must be removed.
3 And this bill is the perfect vehicle.
4 In March, the National Rifle Association,
5 which has a few Pennsylvania members, published a
6 position paper titled, "The Truth About Sunday
7 Hunting: Why Hunters Shouldn't Be Treated As Second
8 Class Citizens" that forcefully states the case for
9 Sunday hunting and with which we heartily concur.
10 Rather than reading it in its entirety, I
11 am attaching it to this testimony and hope that you
12 will consider its findings. In particular, I hope
13 that you will pay close attention to the elegant
14 sentence contained therein which states, "Opposition
15 to Sunday hunting is in fact opposition to the future
16 of hunting itself."
17 Again, thank you for giving me the
18 opportunity to speak.
19 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: I'm not sure -- thank
20 you, David, for your testimony. How many members of
21 the Pennsylvania Fish and --
22 MR. LADEN: We have about 600 I understand.
23 And the other club that asked me has 4,000 members.
24 They're the largest in the whole state.
25 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: And how did you take a
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1 position on the bill, the 600 that you're testifying
2 for?
3 MR. LADEN: We have long ago passed a
4 resolution that we're 100 percent in favor of Sunday
5 hunting. We had testified to this in the past.
6 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: I remember.
7 MR. LADEN: Okay. The other -- the group,
8 they took a vote at the board meeting, executive
9 committee took a vote, and that was also 100 percent
10 for. And that is also the largest single component of
11 the Pennsylvania Federation of Sportsmen's Clubs we
12 understand.
13 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Thank you.
14 MR. LADEN: For what it's worth --
15 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Chairman Staback.
16 CHAIRPERSON STABACK: I have no questions.
17 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Any members have
18 questions? Representative Gillespie.
19 MR. LADEN: The NRA has a couple hundred
20 thousand members, for what it's worth. And their
21 position is clearly in favor.
22 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Go ahead,
23 Representative Gillespie.
24 REPRESENTATIVE GILLESPIE: Thank you, Mr.
25 Chairman. Mr. Laden, do you have a feel with the 600
102
1 members in your organization, that you said
2 100 percent came --
3 MR. LADEN: No, I didn't say 100 percent.
4 We had no, nobody opposed to it. If people opposed
5 it, they kept their mouth shut. You know, it's not
6 that formal. The argument that went on was basically
7 all for it.
8 REPRESENTATIVE GILLESPIE: All morning?
9 MR. LADEN: What?
10 REPRESENTATIVE GILLESPIE: I'm sorry. You
11 say it went on all morning?
12 MR. LADEN: No. The argument we had within
13 the group or the discussion that we had on the motion,
14 just, only people spoke in favor of it. Nobody spoke
15 against it.
16 REPRESENTATIVE GILLESPIE: Do you have a
17 feel for how much anxiety would be within your group
18 if there were farms closed as a result of this
19 legislation?
20 MR. LADEN: I don't think that any farms,
21 any -- there's no evidence in any other state where
22 this passed that would show that this would happen to
23 any significant extent. So I don't believe anybody
24 would have any anxiety about that.
25 REPRESENTATIVE GILLESPIE: Well, we just
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1 heard testimony from the Farm Bureau here this morning
2 that a number of farms will be closed as a result of
3 this legislation.
4 MR. LADEN: I understand that. This --
5 REPRESENTATIVE GILLESPIE: And hearing
6 that, I just asked you the question do you have a
7 feeling for how much anxiety would be in your group if
8 private land was closed as a result of this
9 legislation?
10 MR. LADEN: I don't think there would be
11 any anxiety should that unlikely event happen. We
12 think that Pennsylvania farmers aren't spiteful.
13 REPRESENTATIVE GILLESPIE: I'm sorry.
14 Aren't?
15 MR. LADEN: We don't think Pennsylvania
16 farmers are spiteful people.
17 REPRESENTATIVE GILLESPIE: I don't think
18 they're spiteful people either. Thank you, Mr.
19 Chairman.
20 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Representative Gergely.
21 REPRESENTATIVE GERGELY: Thank you, Mr.
22 Chairman. Very quickly. I don't think they're
23 spiteful either. I don't think when we changed the
24 blue law for Sunday fishing, that a whole mass of
25 farms that had streams running through their farmlands
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1 were closed to access. And I don't think we'll have
2 it here either because you don't have it in 40 other
3 states. I think it's just a misconception, and it's
4 completely unfounded.
5 My question is, I asked Melody Zullinger
6 from the Pennsylvania Federation of Sportsmen's Clubs,
7 I know they now have a cooperative relationship with
8 the NRA. Then I see that you provided from I guess a
9 website the NRA's position --
10 MR. LADEN: Right.
11 REPRESENTATIVE GERGELY: -- on the, it's
12 called, "The Truth About Sunday Hunting: Why Hunters
13 Shouldn't Be Treated As Second Class Citizens." This
14 is available? I suppose you pulled this right off --
15 MR. LADEN: Right. I left the link on the
16 paper.
17 REPRESENTATIVE GERGELY: Okay. The link's
18 on the paper. This is the testimony to it. So I
19 think that maybe you and I need to maybe outreach to
20 the Federation if they're the NRA affiliate of
21 Pennsylvania that needs to work cooperatively, if I'm
22 correct in what she had stated to me, to get this
23 position forwarded by that group if they so choose to
24 represent them in the positions. Or maybe we should
25 find other groups that want to represent this position
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1 with the NRA. Do you agree?
2 MR. LADEN: I couldn't agree more. My club
3 is pretty upset about the position taken on a few
4 items -- and this is one of them -- by that other
5 group.
6 REPRESENTATIVE GERGELY: Thank you.
7 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Thank you, David, for
8 your testimony.
9 MR. LADEN: Thank you for having me.
10 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: The last individual to
11 testify is Ralph Saggiomo, Unified Sportsmen. And
12 Ralph and I know why he's last. He missed the
13 deadline and called me the day after the deadline.
14 It's nothing personal, Ralph. You know that.
15 MR. SAGGIOMO: Thank you, Representative
16 Smith, for squeezing me in. I have a lot on my table.
17 I'm sure you do, too. I've been here quite a few
18 times. And as Yogi Berra said, deja vu all over
19 again. So we've visited this many times. And I'm
20 sure you know where I stand on this issue.
21 And I'd like to say good morning,
22 Representative Smith, Representative Staback, and
23 members of the House Fish and Game. I would like to
24 report as a member of the Unified Sportsmen of
25 Pennsylvania that we back this Sunday hunting bill
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1 presented. There are many other bills coming up. And
2 I don't have to list them to you. You're all aware of
3 them.
4 This is a contentious situation that should
5 have been remedied many, many years ago. I'm going to
6 bounce all over my text here. I'm not a good person
7 reading from a paper. You all know where I come from.
8 And we want to make it very clear that, Unified
9 Sportsmen want to make it very clear that if Sunday
10 hunting is implemented in the state of Pennsylvania,
11 that the Pennsylvania Game Commission, they must
12 balance the reduced days with the additional days
13 according to the resource. We will be very, very
14 savvy on paying attention to that. There are quite a
15 few people here in attendance from the Game
16 Commission. And they know that we will be very, very
17 vigilant in watching these situations develop. We
18 don't need any more pressure on some of our resources
19 or areas of it that don't need resources. There are
20 other areas of the state that do.
21 What I'd like to say is why am I here in
22 the year 2005 trying to remedy this situation that
23 should have been done by my father and grandfather and
24 your predecessors in the Legislature and also by
25 people in the Pennsylvania Game Commission trying to
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1 get this thing remedied many, many years ago? I'm in
2 the twilight of my years. And I hope I'm not passing
3 it on to my son and my grandson and, likewise, to
4 other people here.
5 This thing is -- then I personally asked
6 myself, Why do we need Sunday hunting? And I'm sure
7 there's a lot of people in this room today that really
8 don't need that extra day because we don't have those
9 constraints that the general public has. As stated
10 here in some of our paperwork here, we've lost, since
11 19 -- let me find it here for you -- since 1980 to
12 2003, we've lost a quarter of a million hunters in the
13 state of Pennsylvania. And I would have to say mainly
14 because of social and time constraints placed on our
15 people that are not here able to testify. And
16 hopefully, we can be their advocate in this.
17 We have to come to grips with the needs of
18 our sporting community. And these, these
19 opportunities need to be placed in place so that our
20 children and our people that cannot afford to take off
21 days in the middle of the week can have a weekend to
22 hunt. But we must balance that -- as I said to the
23 Game Commission. They're here present and listening,
24 and they know where we stand -- that they have to
25 balance that out with their seasons, whether they
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1 reduce them or not. And we would be ever vigilant.
2 We stand fully committed in supporting the
3 bills that are there. And we've conversed very
4 eagerly with all of our representatives that have been
5 very, very brave in producing these bills in the
6 committee. And hopefully this, with your astute
7 knowledge, you will remedy this archaic situation that
8 we have been faced.
9 If there's any questions from the
10 committee, I will gladly try to answer them now and if
11 not, in the future.
12 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Thank you, Ralph. I go
13 back to my original question to each group. How many
14 dues paying members do you have, and how did you reach
15 the conclusion to support this bill?
16 MR. SAGGIOMO: Okay. Our executive board
17 formed a committee to research this. Our members are
18 approximately 40,000 members. They constitute from
19 clubs and individual memberships. And we are growing
20 daily, especially after this last year hunting season.
21 We have got quite a few on board. I guess you all got
22 those E-mails and all that we got.
23 So we don't rely on that as a barometer of
24 growth. But we rely on that a barometer of what is
25 going on out in the public area to see where we have
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1 to exert our energies.
2 Our executive board has met many times on
3 this issue. We've polled our memberships to a degree,
4 come up with a, a majority that, because of the social
5 and time constraints, that Sunday hunting has to come
6 now. If not, we're going to delay it into the future.
7 I believe we have 39 states that do not
8 permit Sunday hunting. They've entered the 20th
9 century very, very vigorously. We are now in the 21st
10 century and we're still dealing with this, sad to say.
11 I hope I answered your question.
12 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: You certainly did. I'm
13 just not clear on one thing. The executive board
14 polled the membership.
15 MR. SAGGIOMO: Polled the membership.
16 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: And then the executive
17 board voted.
18 MR. SAGGIOMO: Board made a decision, yes.
19 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: I understand. Thank
20 you. Chairman Staback.
21 CHAIRPERSON STABACK: First off, Ralph, I
22 want to thank you for being here.
23 MR. SAGGIOMO: Thank you for giving me the
24 privilege.
25 CHAIRPERSON STABACK: It certainly is clear
110
1 that Unified is a strong supporter of the Sunday
2 hunting concept. But when you talked about polling
3 your members for support, were you talking about
4 Sunday hunting or were you talking about the merits of
5 House Bill 904 which simply transfers the
6 decision-making policies --
7 MR. SAGGIOMO: Right. The merits are very
8 good. I think the Pennsylvania Game Commission should
9 have the, the exact opportunity to control the species
10 and times and places and things. That should not be
11 taken away from them. So I appreciate that bill as it
12 is directed.
13 CHAIRPERSON STABACK: Okay. So Unified is
14 in support of House Bill 904?
15 MR. SAGGIOMO: Yes. Yes.
16 CHAIRPERSON STABACK: Thank you very much.
17 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Representative
18 Gillespie.
19 REPRESENTATIVE GILLESPIE: Thank you, Mr.
20 Chairman. Ralph, do you have a feeling for the 40,000
21 members that belong to your organization how many hunt
22 on public versus private ground?
23 MR. SAGGIOMO: No, I could not give you
24 that. I would have to, that would have to be a
25 guesstimate. That would not be fair for me to answer
111
1 on that. I would have to say a great majority of them
2 because of the amount of feedback we got this past
3 deer season with some of the areas in our north
4 central V, as you're all familiar with, that gave us
5 tremendous amount of feedback on the pressures that
6 were put in those areas. And those areas are
7 constituted mainly of public land, be it both game and
8 state.
9 So I would have to say a great majority of
10 them do hunt on, on public land. That's a guesstimate
11 now. I would have to poll them more directly on that.
12 REPRESENTATIVE GILLESPIE: Thank you.
13 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
14 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Thank you, Ralph. For
15 your testimony. Several -- I'm sorry, Representative
16 Gergely. I looked, and you were looking down. I
17 apologize. Ralph, you have another question. Excuse
18 me.
19 MR. SAGGIOMO: Sorry.
20 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: That's not your fault.
21 REPRESENTATIVE GERGELY: It will be very
22 brief. I can assure you. Mr. Saggiomo, I have a
23 question for you that I think you may have an ability
24 to focus on for me. Do you believe, after hearing the
25 amount of testimony today and some prepared testimony
112
1 that was submitted from, like, the National Wild
2 Turkey Federation that's taken a positive position,
3 that you can form a coalition? I think the state has
4 changed; the scope of this argument has changed.
5 I think that groups like yourself -- and
6 that's why I asked if you believe -- my question was,
7 Do you believe that you can bring in the AFL-CIO, the
8 union workers that don't get to hunt only one day a
9 week because they work during the week? Do you
10 believe you can get the tourism groups that are losing
11 economic impact? Do you believe you can get the
12 National Wild Turkey Federation, the NRA, the Bow
13 Hunters Association? The only ones that really were
14 opposed -- this is why I questioned you -- were the
15 Pennsylvania Federation of Sportsmen's Clubs. But
16 outside of that, it was farm groups and Keystone
17 Trails and the Grange Association. So the sportsmen
18 seem to be now allying together.
19 Do you believe we can form a coalition now
20 to get a succinct message that Representative
21 Staback's bill is the right avenue to take and now we
22 can kind of get rid of all the other Sunday hunting
23 issues and give this issue over to the Game Commission
24 who has the scientists and management perspective that
25 we need?
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1 MR. SAGGIOMO: I strongly believe the time
2 is now for us to form a coalition. There's no doubt
3 about that. As far as the Pennsylvania Federation of
4 Sportsmen's Clubs, I believe, if my memory serves me
5 right -- and sometimes I have those senior
6 moments -- that it was very, very close. I think it
7 has gained a little momentum within their ranks. And
8 this is, I think, a positive aspect as far as they're
9 concerned. And I appreciate their polling their
10 members to that degree.
11 I think a lot of the so-called -- I don't
12 want to use the word anti or anything like that -- but
13 so-called not understanding the issues to a degree of
14 our social aspects has come around to a point where
15 some of the percentages have risen to the point of not
16 as being so much in opposition of it. And I think
17 even the, there are maybe some factions within the
18 Legislature that understand it.
19 REPRESENTATIVE GERGELY: My last and
20 second. When you say that -- and no one touched on
21 this today. No one testified. And I think
22 this, that's the slope as hunters and our hunting
23 heritage. We just ran out of judiciary in my internet
24 hunting bill.
25 The question to you is -- and I don't know
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1 if the Chairman had anyone from, like, the Humane
2 Society want to testify in opposition to Sunday
3 hunting or PETA want to testify in opposition to
4 hunting. I think what we miss sometimes, Ralph, is
5 that us hunters are fighting amongst ourselves. But
6 there's a whole entity of people out there that are
7 adamantly opposed to hunting in general and will jump
8 on this bandwagon to prohibit this. And I think we
9 need to coalesce together because of those
10 oppositions.
11 Have you seen that momentum as an executive
12 director, as a member of the Governor's Advisory
13 Council start to swell up in Pennsylvania? I almost
14 predict it will. So I think we need to be ready for
15 that and to fight that off.
16 MR. SAGGIOMO: Representative Gergely, I
17 appreciate you bringing that up. In 1959, I felt this
18 breath on the back of my neck. And that's when I
19 started becoming active. And I've been a sportsmen's
20 active ever since as an independent, as the
21 Representative can testify to. And I believe we have
22 to come to some sort of understanding to protect our
23 ranks to a degree, that not, we should not have to dig
24 trenches. We are on a level playing field as far as
25 all aspects of muzzleloaders, archers, trappers,
115
1 fishermen. We're on a level playing field. We're
2 right out there. We have nothing to hide. We're good
3 people. And we need to be ever vigilant not to take
4 this aspect away from us. We should not be aggressive
5 to the degree to be abusive to each other. But we
6 much be, much -- form a coalition that we can more or
7 less protect that level playing field and be not
8 subservient to each other but servient to each other.
9 And when we get to that point, which I think is
10 coming -- it has to come. If not, we will be doing
11 this 30 years from now again and protecting and
12 protecting and protecting. When that does come and we
13 can form this joint venture to preserve what we deem
14 so vigilantly precious, that is going to be a
15 formidable defense -- I don't want to use that word
16 defense -- a formidable alliance that can be an
17 attribute to all the sportsmen in Pennsylvania and all
18 the people that enjoy God's given natural beauty.
19 And as far as my faith is concerned, I am
20 so close to God when I'm out there on a Sunday that
21 you couldn't take that away from me with any other
22 formed religion in the state. So I say thank you for
23 this privilege again.
24 CHAIRPERSON SMITH: Thank you, Ralph. You
25 are the first person who ever answered a question in a
116
1 longer fashion than Representative Gergely's question.
2 Thank you for your testimony.
3 Several, several items that I want to call
4 to the attention of everyone attending. First of all,
5 I'm pleased that Rob Miller, Governor Rendell's
6 Executive Director of the Hunting, Fishing and
7 Conservation Council, attended the entire hearing.
8 Thank you for your attendance.
9 I'd remind the members that the Legislative
10 Budget and Finance Committee will meet with us next
11 Thursday at 11 o'clock on this same related issue, on
12 the pros and cons of expanding Sunday hunting in
13 Pennsylvania.
14 Also, the members are aware, because each
15 of you received a copy, there are three groups that
16 did not testify that I want their letter to me
17 included in the record. Those of you keeping score,
18 it's the National Turkey Federation. They support
19 House Bill 904. They do not say how many members they
20 have. The Pennsylvania State Grange sent me a letter
21 indicating their opposition to expanding Sunday
22 hunting, and they indicate they have 20,000 members.
23 And we received an E-mail from John Hohenwarter on
24 behalf of the NRA, and they do support expansion of
25 Sunday hunting in Pennsylvania.
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1 Finally, members, please put on your
2 calendar, I'm very, very pleased for the first time in
3 my, all my years of serving as Chairman of this
4 committee, we're going to have a joint meeting of the
5 House Game and Fisheries Committee with Senator Conti
6 in the Senate Game and Fisheries Committee. It will
7 be on August 9th. It's going to be on the financial
8 condition problems of the Game Commission and what
9 they're doing to resolve and address these problems
10 because as I mentioned earlier, we have learned
11 that -- and to our dismay -- that the Game Commission
12 is in dire financial straits. And I think it's so
13 important that we learn what's going on and what
14 caused it and what the plans are of the Game
15 Commission that we're meeting jointly in August. So I
16 hope all the members will be able to attend.
17 All that being said, this meeting is
18 adjourned. Thank you for your attendance.
19 (Whereupon, at 12:11 p.m., the proceedings concluded.) 20
21
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1 CERTIFICATE
2
3
4 I hereby certify that the proceedings and
5 evidence are contained fully and accurately to the
6 best of my ability in the notes taken by me during the
7 hearing of the foregoing cause and that this copy is a
8 correct transcript of the same.
9
10
11
12 Jennifer P. McGrath, RPR Official Court Reporter 13
14