LAW REFORM COMMITTEE Inquiry into legal services in rural – 13 September 2000

Members Ms D. G. Hadden Mr A. J. McIntosh Mr P. A. Katsambanis Mr R. E. Stensholt Mr T. Languiller Mr M. H. Thompson Ms A. L. McCall

Chairman: Mr M. H. Thompson Deputy Chairman: Ms D. G. Hadden

Staff Executive Officer: Ms P. Raman Research Officers: Ms S. Vohra and Ms M. Mason

Witnesses Mr B. O’Kane, Chief Executive Officer; Mr T. McDonald, Chairman of Directors and Community Drug and Alcohol Resource Centre Coordinator; and Mr L. Marks, Youth Mental Health Development Officer, Central Aboriginal Cooperative. The CHAIRMAN — I welcome you on behalf of the Victorian Law Reform Committee. Hansard is recording the proceedings today and any comments you make have the benefit of protection under the Parliamentary Committees Act. If you would like to make any comments off the record that might be helpful for our work, and we can make arrangements for that to take place. Hansard will prepare a copy of the transcript for you to peruse. You may make amendments to that and forward it to Padma Raman at your earliest convenience. I encourage you to make remarks under the headings to which you will be directing your comments. Firstly, could you introduce yourself and outline your expertise and your role within the organisation?. Mr O’KANE — By way of overview, would a handout be useful to describe the programs? The CHAIRMAN — Yes, thank you. Mr O’KANE — Please tell me if I stray too far from the mark. I am the CEO of the aboriginal cooperative here in Morwell. The aboriginal cooperative has run for about 22 years. In the past two years it has been run by a board of directors who have been appointed by what used to be the Office of Fair Trading, where the registrar of cooperatives lives. Recently a new set of rules has been imposed, but there was a period of consultation to do with the running of the co-op, and they were generally compliant with what we had sent them as recommended rules. The directors were appointed, six of the seven positions were filled, the directors keep it on me as the CEO, and I therefore have responsibility for the programs I have described there. We have a health service, which is on the floor below us. I have summarised the visiting doctors, 1.5 nurses, 2 health workers, a receptionist, and dental and podiatry access. The notes are meant as a guide only. The health service covers the La Trobe municipality, but people from outside this community can certainly access it. We have never specified that it is restricted to Aboriginal people, but it is fair to say that nearly all the people who come here are Aboriginal. That area is funded by the Office of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Health, or OATSIH, a federal government department. The housing service — we are a health and housing cooperative, although that name will change in the next month — is coordinated by Rob Resuggan, who is shared with Dandenong and Healesville. The co-op owns about 22 houses and 10 flats. It has gone from collecting $3000 a year in rent the year before I got here to $71 000 the last financial year, and it expects to hit $100 000 this financial year. That funding, if you call it self-generated, is perhaps the only area of real discretion for the local community and the directors. The child-care centre just along the street here, Gunai Lidj, is run by Lorraine Peake. It has capacity for 25 children and it is at capacity. Before I got here there were usually 8 children attending on a good day and there are now 25. Three child-care workers, a part-time cook and cleaner, and other allied workers are coming out of that project. It is federally funded through the Department of Family and Community Services, but it is monitored by the local Department of Human Services, which tells us it inspects it now because it can pass inspections. Previously it did not inspect it because it could not pass. We have an intensive family support project over the back; it has recently come under our auspice. It was with Anglicare, and we are grateful for how it established it and set it up. It is going beautifully. It is intensive work involving a coordinator and two family support workers. It is also funded by the Department of Human Services. The community drug and alcohol service is known locally as Bendin House. Dembin is a local Aboriginal word for ‘crazy’. Bendin is sometimes confused with that, and it is occasionally called Brendan’s House, which I think I own some responsibility for. It means ‘resting place’. It is funded through the Department of Human Services and is required to service La Trobe and Baw Baw shire councils, but it goes beyond those shires. Troy McDonald runs the service; he is also the chairman of directors. There is a coordinator and three workers equivalent full-time. There is a mental health project, and for some ridiculous reason I am acting as the coordinator there — it is because of my psychology registration. It attempts to look after the Aboriginal community from Longwarry to the New South Wales border — from the hills to the sea — and its three outreach workers are therefore stressed. Recently appointed were one youth mental health worker and one stolen generations counsellor. It is jointly funded by the Department of Human Services and the Office of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Health. There is a juvenile justice program, which is coordinated and staffed by Mick Kenny. He services La Trobe and Baw Baw shires, but also goes beyond that. He is on a 24-hour call-out situation. He has been with us for a couple of months and already we owe him 60 hours time in lieu. It is just not working. That program is also funded by the Department of Human Services. A drug and alcohol counsellor position is also funded by the Department of Human Services. We have a part-time psychologist doing two 4-hour slots a week because the incumbent is currently off on Workcover. In management we have the chief executive officer — me — and an executive officer, John Cooney, who has worked beside me for a couple of months. Our management area is funded partly by OATSIH, but it is gradually withdrawing from that traditional arrangement. At present we levy fees against programs at the rate of 10 per cent to cover the cost of running management. By the time OATSIH withdraws from the arrangement the levy will still be approximately 10 per cent. At the bottom of the list I have noted the visiting services, including the Victorian Aboriginal Legal Service. I apologise to the committee as the local representative of VALS, Mr Willie Pepper — also a director of the cooperative and a fabulous guy — has been asked not to attend. I ask the committee to take up that matter with VALS; I understand you are due to meet with VALS in a couple of weeks. The cooperative rents a serviced office to that organisation, in effect. He has a reception facility and can use any of the facilities here. He often works flexibly with the cooperative. As a director he has recently arranged for a gymnasium to be opened. The community will be able to take advantage of that service once the staff are trained to supervise the gym. The Victorian Aboriginal Child-care Agency has a full-time worker, but her work is spread from here to the border; she is not often here. However, hers is a full-time office. Statutory requirements to do with access, custody issues, families and fostering are in place, where required. Frequently our intensive family support program is also involved in those cases. In fact, VACA is required to be in on the decision making when a referral is to be made to our intensive family support service. That service generally works towards children who are at risk of being removed from their families or where intensive work may avoid that occurring. Some of my notes are gleaned from consultations with the entire spectrum of our services here. I start with the community justice panel, which is a system that fails completely in this area. When I was considering applying for this job two and half years ago a civilian colleague of mine in the police force said he knew someone in the police force who might have something to say about my application. That gentleman was Bruce Colcott, who still has responsibility, so far as I know, for the CJP program. He said that to apply for the Morwell cooperative position would destroy my career. He urged me not to do it and I heard that from quite a few places. The more I heard it, the more I was inclined to apply. I can understand there was some good-natured banter in that recommendation because to take this job may not necessarily have been a move that advanced my career, but it was an indication it is widely known that Morwell is in real trouble, and that as an organisation it has only limped along for 20 years. But we are now at our proudest point. We are looking at how our programs work and how our staff respond to accountability measures; 10 years after the law was enacted this cooperative — an organisation that has never had a log book placed in one of its vehicles or given out a pay slip — is finally getting its act together and doing such things. It is ironic that as staff work for the cooperative because they are pleased and proud to do so they are governed by strict accountability, yet they see colleagues who are recruited and employed elsewhere not having anything like the accountability that is now required of them. The CJP project is a voluntary project. To that extent, in line with what I expect from any volunteers around the place, you can only expect a certain level of commitment. Unfortunately, it is failing as a much needed service. The local police do not wish to evaluate the project because they see nothing wrong with it. This opinion was communicated to me two years ago by Bruce Colcott and has not changed since. The accountability takes into account two factors: firstly, is the amount of money allocated to them balanced in the books; and secondly, do the local police have any complaints? Local police cannot complain as they consider they ought not be too critical because it is a voluntary service. The budget for it, which we think is $4000, is for community relief, fares, transport to and from courts, supply of cigarettes for prisoners; no largesse has been dispensed and no support of that material kind has been provided. A designated coordinator also has a position with the local psychiatric service as an Aboriginal liaison officer. The system is supposed to be that the local police have a one telephone call system, and that is to the CJP. The agreed protocol is that the CJP evaluates the situation — it can be done over the phone — and then the inmate is evaluated for what is the next appropriate step. The next appropriate step may be juvenile justice referral, depending on the age of the person; it could be admittance to Bendin House, depending on the person’s level of intoxication and the absence of serious police matters; or it could be referral to our mental health project or to VALS. But those referrals are not occurring. The police are required to contact the VALS central office. The problem is that by the time that message arrives back here, any need in the cells has long passed because VALS has not been available at the time, notwithstanding that the local gentleman carries a mobile phone and is available to be contacted. But the police want to stick to a one phone call system, and I agree with them on that. If I were a desk sergeant I would want to use one phone call, too. However, the assessment frequently does not occur. That means that de facto a matter is handed to Bendin House, which is limited to a divergent program for people who are intoxicated, thereby avoiding any problems with deaths in custody. They are technically clients who are bailed to spend some time at Bendin House, with a minimum stay of 8 hours, with all appropriate support — nutrition, showering, sleep or whatever is needed — being available and are then released to an appropriate situation in the community. We are doing it but without any assessment by the CJP because the initial step is to decide which of the available programs, if any, should be implemented. The evaluation may be that the community member is so hostile, difficult or deranged that further professional evaluation may be needed, but if the evaluation was that the person should stay there, fair enough; each of our services that has to turn up makes the same evaluation. Sometimes when a representative of Bendin House appears on the scene, the client, as he or she is entitled to do, refuses that service. As a project the community justice panel is not working. My recommendation is that in areas where we are lucky enough to have a service which has 24-hour availability — such as Bendin House — it makes sense for a voluntary project to be appended to it. When the alarms go off in this building we rely on the 24-hour service to answer. We have about eight sets of alarms throughout the building and other buildings of this cooperative; our 24-hour funded service responds to that. I cannot see how it can be any other way. Historically, there has been a feeling that this co-op will take over programs such as CJP and ruin them, and historically that has had some basis. It is not about a grab; it is not about the money. I do not know what the money is; I hear it is $4000, but I don’t care. I spent $5000 on emergency relief. It is painfully inadequate, but we make do on it. We are just tougher about the criteria by which we release emergency relief. I now refer to the police force. The police force does not make contact with the Victorian Aboriginal Legal Service locally. If it could be arranged that the CJP as part of its assessment would go to the next step and call in VALS, it would be a beautiful system. But it does not happen. This is not a criticism of the police force. Recently VALS and our juvenile justice worker had the police over for a series of games, including indoor cricket. It is working fine. The police have turned up for a few barbecues. The police now have a system of induction training for their relatively new recruits, who do a tour of the Aboriginal facilities. Ms HADDEN — That is here? Mr O’KANE — Here included. We have a KODE, or Koori Open Door Education, school in this town. There are about 80 kids down there. They are doing a fabulous job working against the trend of kids not liking school and not enjoying it. They are doing brilliantly. There is a heads agreement with that school that unites this co-op and them, because we believe we are working in the same direction. We regard it as simply another opportunity for contact with the community, and it regards us in the same way. It is interested in contact from an educational point of view — from the womb to the tomb — and our view is similar but includes health, housing and other viewpoints. Because of our chequered career there are plenty of community members who do not wish to use the Aboriginal co-op, and that is absolutely acceptable. Part of our charter is to encourage and help them use mainstream services. The word ‘mainstream’ really means ‘white’, but to reduce that dichotomy and to encourage people to understand that it is not a black-and-white issue, the attitude of this co-op is that accessing mainstream services remains the right of Aboriginal people, as it does with anyone else. Therefore, members of our community are to be encouraged and supported as they learn how to access those services. A recent heads of agreement drawn up between ourselves and the Latrobe Community Health Service indicates that we are well on the way. It was successful in winning $77 000 worth of funding, which will allow us to review drug and alcohol services throughout the La Trobe and Baw Baw shires. I have strayed from the topic. The problem with the required process of police going through the Melbourne office of VALS — which is not, as I understand it, a 24-hour serviced office — is that at weekends there can be lengthy delays. We think it can be done better, but there is not an awful lot we can do about it, given the current CJP arrangement. The comments are that the local legal aid service is acceptable and assessable by VALS; that is partly because of the knowledge of and the relationships between Mr Pepper and its workers. We are not so confident that other people know how to access it, but Mr Pepper’s lead-in is enough for us. I have a question about legal aid from our point of view. The Victorian Aboriginal Legal Service has a policy that in a matter in which an Aboriginal person is in conflict with another Aboriginal person, the service will not appear. We encourage you to consider what the alternative to that is. Locally it will be perhaps referral to the legal service and to private legal practitioners. The CHAIRMAN — Just to clarify that, you say that VALS will not appear in a Koori-Koori conflict? Mr O’KANE — Yes. That is our understanding and that is the local interpretation. Ms HADDEN — It has been explained by other indigenous workers that it will not fight black against black, which is understandable. Mr O’KANE — It is understandable. This co-op has had no contact with the local legal aid service, except by a letter addressed to the CEO, accusing the CEO of stalking a staff member. I am unhappy that a staff member on $42 000 can access the service when an awful lot of other people can’t. However, my lawyer, at much more than $100 an hour, will decide on that matter for me. Beyond that, I am happy to answer any questions. It is the only contact I have had with them. I am happy for that to be recorded. I do not mind people knowing that I have been accused of sexual assault. Our relationship with the Equal Opportunity Commission, most recently with Belinda Jackiel, was a question of education for this cooperative. She wanted to trial an educational program on sexual assault. I indicated to her that there was no such problem in this co-op. A week later the matter came up. We are now going to allow Belinda to come and run her project down here as an educational process. The community finds it relatively appealing to use local private lawyers. The previous administrator of this co-op, Paul Pattison, who still believes the co-op owes him $10 000, left behind four legal cases of wrongful dismissal taken up by what is now the Department of Employment, Workplace Relations and Small Business, which have cost us $29 000 so far. Ms HADDEN — Brendan, when you get a copy of your submission you will have to check it before it goes out; it is up to you whether you want to change anything. Mr O’KANE — Yes. Mr Pattison and I have had frequent conversations. Ms HADDEN — It does go on our web site. Mr O’KANE — Yes. I have indicated to him that any funding body that puts him up again should be prosecuted. I had a recent threatening letter about the $10 000. Unfortunately, the administrators appointed the gentleman to administer this place and to wind up the Drouin cooperative. He asserts that this cooperative bought $10 000 worth of equipment from that cooperative — that is, he as administrator bought some furniture from himself, as the liquidator over there. Our previous chief executive officer, now the local federal member of Parliament, tells me he has a clear recollection of no such transaction. I will let a judge decide; I don’t mind. I am saying this cooperative has come out of the Dark Ages and into the 20th century just in time for the 21st century. It is continuing to move ahead and will not be held back by those things. The help we think this committee can afford us is to tidy up the CJP procedure. If the relationship between Victoria Legal Aid and us can be deepened — and that is not to blame them, it is equally incumbent on us to make overtures to them — this service will proceed and our community members will be accessing the sorts of things that they have a right to — that is, we are reliant at the moment on a case getting into the hands of Mr Pepper and his relationship with the VLA being what leads to access for his clients. There is no problem at all for the community with private lawyers, so far as we can tell. Ms HADDEN — Do you meet with the Gippsland Law Association or do you have any communication with the president of that association from time to time? Mr O’KANE — We have not, as yet. I believe a couple of association members are former fellow students of mine from the local college. We have not had any real contact with them. We ought to; they are making a fair amount out of us! Ms HADDEN — You could make suggestions as to how they can improve the situation. Mr O’KANE — We are daily talking with the local branch of Slater and Gordon — it seems to be daily, anyway. Ms HADDEN — Your cooperative covers from here to this side of ? Mr O’KANE — No, the old rules said 80 kilometres in every direction. There is a cooperative in Sale. Probably the town of Rosedale is closer to the border, but that is subject to some upcoming discussions, again to do with funding bodies determining what is a region and which cooperative services are in which bit of what region. We are told that Drouin and will not get a service of their own; therefore, they will be an outreach service of this cooperative. They may have their own staffing down there, but it will be under the auspices of this cooperative. The reason for the name change from Central Gippsland Aboriginal Health and Housing Cooperative is to take out Lieutenant Gipps as a person to be referred to as ‘honoured’ and to extend it to what could be ; a local Aboriginal name has already been applied for. Ms HADDEN — What is your position here? Mr O’KANE — I am the chief executive officer. My background is as a psychologist. That is why I am involved in the mental health project. Could we go off record for a moment? Discussion off record. Ms HADDEN — Who is the executive officer? Mr O’KANE — The executive officer is John Cooney. I am happy to answer any questions; I think I have made any relevant remarks. The CHAIRMAN — At one stage you were the acting chief executive officer? Mr O’KANE — I act as the coordinator of a program. The CHAIRMAN — Did you also continue as chief executive officer? Mr O’KANE — Yes, miracles can be achieved! As I said, the team is doing brilliantly. They have a couple of staff vacancies, but given that they are spread throughout Gippsland they are doing a fine job. The CHAIRMAN — During the discussion of record you referred to an $8000 drop in pay? Mr O’KANE — That is because the coordinator of the project is paid $8000 less than the chief executive officer. My wife agrees that the job would appeal. Ms HADDEN — Can you tell us a little more about the CJP? I thought that was managed and set up by each cooperative? Mr O’KANE — That seems to be steered out of the police department civilian wing in Melbourne. I have a friend in the buying department; he and I occasionally have lunch when I am in Melbourne. At the time Bruce Colcott talked with me and has exchanged a couple of unhappy letters, saying, ‘Don’t start criticising us, you guys are pretty hopeless’. We say, ‘We’ll admit to our sins, but let’s have a review of what is going on’. We get nowhere. There used to be more members. The man who now occupies the youth mental health worker position, which is a temporary one-year position, Laurie Marks, comes from juvenile justice and is a talented fellow. He is a fount of information and he does not hold back, but he also was a member of the CJP committee and the frequent deputy because he also held a 24-hour phone access position. But he withdrew from that because it did not work for him. Ms HADDEN — It seems to be not working through many of the communities we have visited. Ms RAMAN — But at the same time it is working in a couple. Mr O’KANE — Frankly, the workers at Bendin House, whose job it is to respond to the police when an Aboriginal person is intoxicated in the cells and there are no significant other legal problems, end up having the person diverted. We are on call, we are available, but 8 times out of 10 that is precisely what the CJP would be called out to evaluate. Why would you not simply say that the project can carry the day? The project does not need funding — it is there anyway. In some ways it cries out for work. We are funded to provide 200 episodes of care a year, which equals four a week. People sometimes stay there for 8 hours. Ms HADDEN — What do the police do? Do they phone the VALS office at Fitzroy and leave a message on the answering service? Mr O’KANE — If it is a VALS situation, yes. Even if they talk to CJP it is still put on an answering machine in Melbourne. The CJP, so far as we know, do not evaluate or, if they do, they take the phone call and dial the next phone number they can think of, which is usually Bendin House. The police will often call the juvenile justice worker, but that is an age-specific situation. Our relationship with the police is cordial. The cooperative occasionally needs police services. When I got here the wages for one health worker position were spent on employing a security officer. I evaluated that the security officer position was unnecessary and would be a poor use of health funding. When the incumbent stole the computer it was an opportune time to dismiss the position and reclassify it as health worker. We have that today. For the occasional misbehaviours we experience, as does any business or enterprise around here, we rely on the police force, and its responses are fine. Ms HADDEN — Is there a VALS office in Morwell? Mr O’KANE — Yes; in this very building. Ms HADDEN — It is staffed by a solicitor? Mr O’KANE — By Mr Willy Pepper; he is also a director. Ms HADDEN — I thought he was with juvenile justice? Mr O’KANE — No, that was Laurie Marks, and now it is Mick Kenny. Ms RAMAN — But he is not a solicitor, he is a client services officer? Mr O’KANE — Willy, yes. Frequently Antoinette Gentile is the attending lawyer from that service. Ms HADDEN — She travels from Fitzroy? Mr O’KANE — Yes. Ms HADDEN — There is not a solicitor present at the VALS office here? Mr O’KANE — No. Ms HADDEN — You have the community services officer? Mr O’KANE — Willy’s background is in law, including tertiary studies, and he has a background in clerk of court situations. Ms HADDEN — But he cannot appear for anyone? Mr O’KANE — He does appear — frequently, yes. Ms HADDEN — As a solicitor? Mr O’KANE — No, I think you would find it is just as a friend of the courts. He enjoys a very good reputation with our local magistrates, as do the programs of this co-op. The magistrates invited us in on Monday to discuss a chronic problem we have with chroming, which other Aboriginal communities may or may not talk to you about. Chroming is the act of using propellants from things such as fly sprays and aerosol paints as intoxicants. To the credit of our workers, they took with them four kids who regularly practise the art. The magistrates not only had a non-hearing situation in which they could talk to the kids but they also had an opportunity to talk with the staff members and project managers around here who deal with that. The CHAIRMAN — Is chroming an addictive practice? Mr O’KANE — Given my four years in drug and alcohol services I say nothing is addictive unless you decide it is. In my opinion it is easier for people to give up heroin than it is for them to give up tobacco. If they have an addiction, it is an addiction to perhaps the practice or to the intoxication. Generally people who practise chroming would practise using almost any other intoxicant if they got the chance. Yesterday we were called to the school. I happened to be in the car. On our way back here we ran into the problem students — who in fact were at the school apologising for their behaviour — who were chroming. The practice is to spray into a bag, such as a garbage bag, and inhale. It is rife here. Although there are a small number who do it, it happens over and again because there is no law that applies to chroming. The police are showing some impatience — we all are — and are likely to find a legal way of bringing the kids to court. What frequently happens is that the kids steal a paint can, and that helps the police get an action. This co-op is leaning towards a project such as farming as a diversionary project. It would have the benefit of being out of town and away from some of the problems. It could act as a respite facility. We have actually been offered a farm; the co-op has no funding for such a proposal, but we are thinking about it. We may go ahead precipitately and do it without funding because of the rent we are collecting. We are likely to go to the funding bodies to allow for such a youth diversion possibility. We are already using a project called CDEP, the community development employment program, and we have about seven participants here. Between that and court orders we may well have a willing — fairly willing — work force for a farm. It perhaps does not matter if it is not a farm or a productive unit, as long as it is a place where kids can have some time away from destructive family dynamics and from the sources of the intoxicants. That is the current dream, but it is only a dream. Can we go off the record for a moment? Discussion off record. Mr O’KANE — Our next role is with diversionary programs, activity programs, and to some extent disruption of usual behaviours. I have indicated the stress levels of our juvenile justice worker. I think the next step is for there to be an assistant in that area — a youth worker. The mental health youth worker has to deal with mental health issues from here to the New South Wales border. In your travels you will find that that is 6 hours away, so his opportunities are very limited. Our problem is that our younger adults are suiciding at a startling rate. I have said the co-op’s job is to do itself out of a job; it will be cheated of that opportunity if our community does not slow down its self-destruction. Ms HADDEN — Are there enough elders in your community to be role models for and do some innovative things with these troubled young people? Mr O’KANE — As a white person in this position I am always nervous about speaking on behalf of the Aboriginal community. But my observation would be that the elders who could perform the role of inspirers and leaders for the forces of good are defeated emotionally and have retreated. The role models for the forces of evil are out there and are having a ball. On a fine day like this they are usually ensconced in the car park opposite. Occasionally people call for the pub opposite to be purchased and burnt down, but my business friends in this town would simply rebuild one on the next corner. Yes, there may be some role in community development of this cooperative to inspire our positive elders and our positive older members of the community to come out and start up. As late as this morning a tenant of one of our houses indicated to me a wish for support from the co-op for a women’s group. It would simply be a question of getting a few videos, getting the programs together, and visiting them at some venue — probably one of our outbuildings — and we are very happy to do that. That came from that lady and one other. I am barracking for them all the way. I have ways of slipping them some funding. Instead of you getting an outside catering service on your next visit, the catering could be internally done by the ladies group. I am not being sexist here; if the men’s group wanted to they could organise a sandwich-cutting routine. Even the local businesses, including the local delicatessen, have urged me to stop making them so much money. There is an opportunity for employment there. If our farm gets off the ground produce could be directly purchased by the co-op for use in our catering programs, or even be made available at a subsidised rate to the community. I have visions that if I have no more imagination than to run a chook farm, we may well run a chook farm. If all we do is get a few more eggs into the community, we may well be helping the dietary elements — — Ms HADDEN — They could be free-range chook eggs. Mr O’KANE — Yes, it may well even be an opportunity for a business. I ask to go off the record. Discussion off record. Mr McDONALD — I coordinate the drug treatment service at Morwell, but it would appear not to be a drug treatment service as such. I am mandated to run a residential program which acts as a diversion for Aboriginal deaths in custody. Therefore, based on that rationale, we have a close tie with Victoria Police. We are strictly mandated so that if members of the community are intoxicated from alcohol or other substances they are to be handed over to our program and we put them into a residential setting. We care for them until the effects of the substance wear off. We have a psychologist on deck so if they want to undertake some therapeutic intervention or want admission into a bona fide withdrawal unit, we broker those activities. We also are expected to do community development and drug and alcohol awareness programs, which is something we could be doing better. We are often reactive with youth and police issues. On three of the four nights this week so far I have been bailing out kids aged between 14 and 17 from the police cells. Mr O’KANE — On how many occasions was a CJEP assessment done according to protocols? Mr McDONALD — There has never been an assessment done of any of my clients. The last episode was no. 204. We report to the Department of Human Services statistically about our intake into Bendin House, including what treatment goals we are achieving with clients and so on. I was working on a project that has become not as important as it was earlier; fewer than 3 per cent of the 204 clients have had CJEP intervention. By ‘intervention’ I mean that I get a phone call, the police call the CJEP, the CJEP call us and we go to the cells to do the assessment. I have set up a separate protocol with the Baw Baw police operational command, through Inspector Major, and we deal directly with the police because of the dysfunctional nature of the CJEP in the Baw Baw police operational district. I have that document at Bendin House. Such is the nature of the collapse of the CJEP in West Gippsland that the police come to us for all matters, from petty crime issues to holding a juvenile until an adult can be with him or her. We signed off with Inspector Major on that about three months ago. The CHAIRMAN — You started off by mentioning you have been called to the police cells on multiple occasions in the past few days. What were the reasons for that? Mr McDONALD — We have quite a serious problem at the moment with young people chroming. I have also discovered the incidence of drinking of petrol is high at the moment. I had a client down there, a 15-year-old boy, who unfortunately was drinking super-grade petrol and lit up a cigarette. I said to him, ‘Do you realise you could have exploded?’. The police are patient and are doing a good job. We have a structure in place that is called the high-risk adolescent referral system. That project was run by the Department of Human Services so that if juveniles are brought to the attention of the police and picked up, the mandatory reporting guidelines start at the police station. The police start doing it. Can we go off the record? Discussion off record. Mr O’KANE — Laurie Marks is the youth mental health worker; until the last couple of months he has been the juvenile justice worker. His family are from around here; he is known to the kids. Earlier the committee asked a question that goes to the question of an Aboriginal organisation administering to its own community and sometimes the unpopular or difficult issues of enforcement. We referred to residential matters, but the question of behaviour on the streets often falls into the area of juvenile justice and attempting to work from the community point of view with members to try to see that at least the requirements of society and behaviour are adhered to. The CHAIRMAN — What is the view of the world of a 14 or 17-year-old boy who is chroming or drinking petrol? What is the diversion from that so it does not happen again? Mr McDONALD — From my perspective, generally a breakthrough is what I call an engagement with the kid. When they come to our attention they can be intoxicated from a multitude of substances. I am now working with the petrol drinker; he says he is ready for a life’s change. From the point of view of this organisation I will speak to the Windana Society to get him into a youth residential detox facility at Dandenong. He has kept to a program down there. Today I spoke to the Mira Mira youth refuge on whether they would have him there as a resident after he detoxes; they said they would. The child is now saying he is ready for change. I am not sure where the promotion is coming from, but one of the disturbing things is that the kids are now asking for safe houses in which they can chrome. I do not know whether that has largely filtered down from public debate on the idea of safe heroin injecting rooms, but it is outrageous. Once the kids identify as wanting help we put mechanisms in place to help them; generally they are successful, although sometimes relapses occur. Mr O’KANE — Laurie, do you want to comment on why 14-year-olds are getting into various intoxicants and where they are heading; is it usually a he or a she? Mr MARKS — The kids’ point of view is that at home they see their aunties and uncles drinking, smoking and carrying on, and they are put down all the time. Their parents are dealing with their own problems. If when the kids come home they have problems, the parents are not there to listen to them. The kids literally get told to leave, or to sometimes join in — that is, drinking, smoking drugs, and so on. The kids are literally just inducted into it. As for chroming, a lot of the kids are saying that they have been cheated when they have gone to score — to score means to go and buy some marijuana — and that the adults are keeping the money and not giving it to them. They are looking for a different high, so they either knock off or buy a can of spray paint or glue. They put it in a bag and head to a drain or to the rotunda in the park and sniff and sniff. That is their way of getting away from the pressures of home. A lot of the kids struggle from day to day to literally have a feed. They go to the KODE school; they know there when the kids are tired because they come in late, they are all grumpy and they have had no food because their parents have been partying. It is just a cycle: dole day, pension day — — Mr McDONALD — And family pay day. Mr MARKS — And endowment day. You see the kids wandering around the streets. They get $50 off their mums or dads, and that’s it. They will buy either food or drugs and go home. Troy commented earlier about a safe sniffing house — gee! There was a house here in Morwell where the kids used to go. If you wanted to find a kid and you knew he sniffed, you would just go to the house and there he would be, plastic bag in hand. You would drag him out and hunt all the other kids home. You are in trouble. A lot of the parents will not admit that their kids have problems with sniffing glue, petrol or paint. They always blame someone else. They blame the workers — Troy and the other youth workers and the co-op — for not fixing the problem. How can you fix the problem if when you tell the parents about the kids the parents say to you, ‘Go away; you fix it’? When they are told, ‘You have to stop it and see YSAS’, they say, ‘No, my kid doesn’t have to go there’. Mr O’KANE — YSAS stands for Youth Substance Abuse Support. Mr McDONALD — It is just the whole structure. I was working with a client of mine who was recently raped. If someone is raped or a kid comes to the attention of the law who needs some support and accommodation, it had better not happen at 4.30 p.m., close of business on a Friday, because there is nothing — everything shuts down. The system failed the Aboriginal woman. The offender was bailed and was three doors away from the victim. That caused a problem. We are discovering with a lot of the young people the disturbing fact that just about every one of the kids who we deal with is a victim of some form of child sexual abuse. That is a fact. A kid I am working with has been on the streets since he was nine years old. He is starting to talk about stuff. The problem is that the people who are doing it are very close to the family. To put in uncle or grandad is taboo — ‘We don’t want to hear that stuff’. The kids are being betrayed by their immediate family members. The way I see it is that a lot of this stuff is just symptomatic — I cannot even say the word right now — of a broader sociological problem that has affected the kids from early childhood development. Yesterday I spoke to the Gippsland psychiatric service. What is difficult to reconcile are some of the cultural aspects. A lot of the families of the problem kids open up their houses to extended families. Uncles would come in, aunties would come in, brothers-in-law would come in, prisoners would be released from prison — and often some of the prisoners are not very nice — and come into the families. All the resources are given to these people. The kids are told to get out of bed and give it to their uncles or aunties. The kids’ existence in the family structure is further devalued. They think, ‘I don’t even have a bed’, so they go looking elsewhere for that, and end up on the streets. A higher priority is given to these, what are called in a cultural sense, extended families, but they have nothing to do with the cultural experience; in most communities and households it is called freeloading. The people who suffer in that framework are the kids. Of course a raft of issues permeate because of their coming to the attention of the law because they have nowhere to go. The CHAIRMAN — Gentlemen, I will interrupt briefly. The majority of committee members are booked on a 5.30 p.m. train to return to Melbourne. Another witness has driven at modest speeds from Dandenong to give evidence before 5.00 p.m. I do not wish to cut short your evidence on certain criteria. I am happy to arrange another time to meet with you in Melbourne, or even for the committee to come down for you to round off your comments. Mr McDONALD — I would like to make a further short comment that I think is worth noting. I think the police have handled this problem we are faced with extremely well, and the policing techniques to deal with these people have improved over a number of years. But I am a bit worried that some of the cops I am dealing with in are pretty much at breaking point, too. I am seeing them interacting differently with these kids and they have shown a fair bit of restraint up to this point. I think they have done their best with the resources they have had in dealing with the problem, too. But I would not have spoken that highly about the police in this area in 1985. I think their communication styles have changed a fair bit and they are trying to deal with this youth problem in a very sensitive manner, but I am not sure how long they can hold the line for. The CHAIRMAN — Yes. Brendan, do you want to make another comment? Mr O’KANE — No, I think the comments from these two gentlemen are fairly good illustrations. We are certainly available to meet with you again if that is what you would like. If you would like to hear from a differently constituted group, or a representative group, we would be happy to bring down a team to help you in your deliberations. The CHAIRMAN — I will look at the transcript and liaise with Padma about the best way to further respond to the issues you have raised. On behalf of the committee I thank Brendan for coming along this afternoon and Troy for dropping by to round off his working day’s activities. Laurie, I am not sure what you are about to embark upon, but thank you for coming along. Witnesses withdrew.