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Attorney General GENERAL PURPOSE STANDING COMMITTEE No. 3 Friday 16 September 2005 Examination of proposed expenditure for the portfolio area ATTORNEY GENERAL The Committee met at 9.00 a.m. MEMBERS The Hon. A. R. Fazio (Chair) The Hon. P. J. Breen The Hon. C. J. S. Lynn The Hon. D. Clarke The Hon. E. M. Obeid The Hon. J. Jenkins The Hon. I. W. West _______________ PRESENT The Hon. R. J. Debus, Attorney General, Minister for the Environment, and Minister for the Arts Attorney General's Department Mr L. Glanfield, Director General Mr M. Talbot, Director, Corporate Services Legal Aid Commission Mr R. Cox, Deputy Chief Executive Officer, Business and Client Services Mr S. O'Malley, Corporate Finance Director _______________ CHAIR: I declare this meeting open to the public. I welcome you to this public hearing of General Purpose Standing Committee No. 3. First, I wish to thank the Hon. Bob Debus and departmental officers for attending today. At this meeting the Committee will examine the proposed expenditure for the portfolio area of Attorney General. Before questions commence, some procedural matters need to be dealt with. I point out that, in accordance with the Legislative Council's guidelines for the broadcast of proceedings—which are available from the attendants and clerks—only members of the Committee and witnesses may be filmed or recorded. People in the public gallery should not be the primary focus of any filming or photographs. In reporting the proceedings of this Committee, you must take responsibility for what you publish or what interpretation you place on anything that is said before the Committee. There is no provision for members to refer directly to their own staff while at the table. Members and their staff are advised that any messages should be delivered through the attendant on duty or the Committee clerks. The Committee has agreed to the following format for the hearing. We will start with 20 minutes for Opposition questioning, then 10 minutes for Mr Jenkins, then 10 minutes for Mr Breen, and we will go in that rotation until we have run out of time. Minister, is that acceptable to you and your officers? Mr BOB DEBUS: Yes, it is. CHAIR: The Committee also resolved, in a deliberative meeting before the hearing today, that questions on notice should be returned within 35 calendar days. I declare the proposed expenditure open for examination. Attorney, do you wish to make any brief opening statement? Mr BOB DEBUS: Thank you, but no. CHAIR: We will now have Opposition questions. The Hon. DAVID CLARKE: Attorney, when did you first become aware that complaints had been made against Judge Dodd? Mr BOB DEBUS: I cannot recall exactly when I became aware of that. The Hon. DAVID CLARKE: Can you say generally when you became aware of it? Mr BOB DEBUS: I became aware, I think it would be fair to say, not very long before there were media statements made about the medical condition that he had had. But, actually, he had had that medical condition quite some time, I think several years before the statements began to be made The Hon. DAVID CLARKE: Is there any member of your department here who could be more specific as to when you became aware? Mr BOB DEBUS: No, there is not, although we could certainly give you more precise information upon notice. But, in essence, we became aware of those complaints at or about the time they actually became public and, as I say, the key fact is that the complaints began to be made by some former litigants about events that were actually years old. I did establish, relatively quickly, that the judge had had treatment for sleep apnoea, as I recall, before any of these matters had become public and, as far as I am aware, for whatever justification, the litigants who have complained about the circumstances that they experienced while they were in Judge Dodd's court all did so about events that were long past before those matters became public and before I was aware of them. The Hon. DAVID CLARKE: So you will take that question on notice and see if you can come up with some specific information from your department? Mr BOB DEBUS: Yes. I do not believe that my written answers will materially add to what I have said, but I will take the question on notice. ATTORNEY GENERAL ESTIMATES 1 FRIDAY 16 SEPTEMBER 2005 The Hon. DAVID CLARKE: Would it be fair to say that you were first made aware after being informed by the Judicial Commission? Mr BOB DEBUS: No. The Hon. DAVID CLARKE: Or had complaints come in to you? Mr BOB DEBUS: To the contrary; I wrote to the Judicial Commission concerning the complaints made against Judge Dodd. The Hon. DAVID CLARKE: Were those complaints in the form of letters to you, or verbal complaints? How did those complaints come to your attention? Mr BOB DEBUS: The complaints came to my attention in several ways: through the media, and in consequence of correspondence from several people who had been litigants. The Hon. DAVID CLARKE: How many complaints about Judge Dodd's conduct have in fact been lodged? Mr BOB DEBUS: We may be able to answer that specifically. I cannot especially, without little research, be completely explicit or precise about the number of complaints that were made. Indeed, there may be some issue about defining what were significant complaints. But I can tell you that I have had three particular matters drawn to my attention by correspondence. The Hon. DAVID CLARKE: Have you got the dates of that correspondence? Mr BOB DEBUS: No. But all of those complaints occurred in the first part of this year— remembering that the circumstances complained about, generally speaking, involved litigation that occurred in 2003. The Hon. DAVID CLARKE: Given that the judge has retired from the bench on medical grounds, how is it that Justice Blanch gave a public assurance on 1 March this year that Judge Dodd had successfully received treatment for his medical condition and was able to carry out his duties in the appropriate manner? Mr BOB DEBUS: Judge Blanch's assurances were based on his understanding of the consequences of Judge Dodd's treatment for sleep apnoea. The retirement occurred because of the judge's more general medical condition, a condition that existed in the recent months, as distinct from the specific symptoms of sleep apnoea, which had been occurring, as I understand it, during 2003. The Hon. DAVID CLARKE: Was there a period of time when Judge Dodd was not carrying on his duties in an appropriate manner? Mr BOB DEBUS: Judge Dodd's episode of sleep apnoea has been well and truly canvassed in the media, and to a degree in the Parliament I guess, and I have no reason, I never had any reason, to for a moment doubt the assurances that Judge Blanch had given. As you are aware, the matters about which litigants have complained in consequence of Judge Dodd's episode of sleep apnoea have all been investigated, as is appropriate. From then on, as I understand it, Judge Dodd performed perfectly effectively, though at a certain point—and, again, I do not know the exact dates—but at a certain point during this year he sought leave, because of his more general medical condition, and was eventually permitted to retire on medical grounds. But I had no indication at all that Judge Dodd failed, during the period between 2003 and 2005, to perform his duties satisfactorily. The Hon. DAVID CLARKE: So you feel that he was performing his duties satisfactorily during the whole of this period? Mr BOB DEBUS: Well, I have no evidence to the contrary. Of course, it is always the case that litigants who feel that they have been aggrieved by the circumstances of any particular case are able to make an appeal. And, in any event, as you might be aware, it was certainly my concern about the circumstances that surrounded Judge Dodd's case that caused me to strengthen the circumstances ATTORNEY GENERAL ESTIMATES 2 FRIDAY 16 SEPTEMBER 2005 under which judges and magistrates might seek medical advice about their health problems. So I am not in the circumstance of wishing to in any way either diminish or enhance the assessment, as it were, of Judge Dodd's performance. But I repeat that I am not aware of him failing to perform in a reasonable manner during the period 2004 and into 2005. The Hon. DAVID CLARKE: Taking that into account, regarding those complainants who contacted you and complained that they were aggrieved that they had not received proper justice, do you believe that there was any substance to their complaints? Mr BOB DEBUS: I am not in a position finally to make a judgment about that. But I, of course, was sufficiently concerned, by the nature of several complaints, to ensure that they were referred to the Judicial Commission. We are indeed fortunate in New South Wales that we have that failsafe mechanism to permit us to review the circumstances of a case without interfering with the independence of the courts. That is precisely why I actually did refer some matters to the Judicial Commission. The Hon. DAVID CLARKE: Coming up to more recent times, between 1 March and 2 June this year how many cases did Judge Dodd hear, and were any complaints made to the Judicial Commission about him in relation to those cases? Mr BOB DEBUS: I cannot answer the number of cases that Judge Dodd heard—it would be extraordinary if I knew.
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