[Thursday, 2 November, 1972] 4885S8

Mr. T. D. EVANS: When dealing with LIQUOR ACT AMENDMENT BILL Council's amendment No. 11 the Commit- tee accepted an amendment by the mem- Assembly's Message ber for Wembley. It has now been drawn Message from the Assembly received and to my attention that the amendment sug- read notifying that it had agreed to gested by the member for Wembley was amendments Nos. 1 to 14 and No. 16, and unnecessary. I seek leave of the Committee that it had agreed to amendment No. 15 to reconsider the Legislative Council's made by the Council subject to further amendment No. 11. amendments. The CHAfIRMAN: Is there any dissenti- COAL MINE WORKERS (PENSIONS) ent voice? As there is no dissentient voice, ACT AMENDMENT BILL leave is granted. Second Reading Mr. T. D. EVANS: I move- THE HON. R. H. C. STUBBS (South- Delete the word "or" previously East-Minister for Local Government) added to amendment No. 11 made by [2.41 p.m.]: I move- the Council and that the original That the Bill be now read a second amendment No. 11 stand. time. Question put and passed; the Council's It has become apparent that the following amendment agreed to. amendments are necessary to the Coal Report Mine Workers (Pensions) Act, 1943-1971; namely- Resolutions reported, the report adopted, and a message accordingly returned to the (1) Section 2-An amendment to cover Council. the definition of "consultants" House adjourned at 11.59 p.m. employed in the industry. (2) Section 9-Child allowance- (a) To make the child allowance a trustee payment to the parent or guardian; and (b) to extend the payment of KrCi'glatitr Oantxril child allowance, at the Coat Thursday, the 2nd November, 1972 Mine Workers' Tribunal's dfis- cretion, in order that the child may be assisted in obtaining The PRESIDENT (The Hon. L. C. a higher education. Diver) took the Chair at 2.30 p.m.. and A difficulty has beenl experienced throughi read prayers. companies engaging workers and classify- ing them as "consultants". Instead of QUESTIONS ON NOTICE these people being employed in the normal Postponement duties one would expect of a consultant they are, In fact, carrying out the duties THE HON. WV.F. WILLESEE (North- of men w ho would normally be engaged as East Metropolitan-Leader of the House) permanent employees within the industry. [2.38 pm.: Mr. President, I ask permis- sion for questions on notice to be taken This has enabled the companies and the at a later stage of the sitting. "consultants" in this category to avoid contribution to the Pensions fund and, The PRESIDENT: Permission is granted. furthermore, has avoided the responsibility to terminate the services of a "consult- PARLIAMIENTARY COMMflISSIONER ant" at the compulsory retirement age of ACT 60 years as stipulated in the Act. Rules: Assembly's Message This situation has had the effect of Message from the Assembly received and creating a certain amount of ill feeling read notifying that it had agreed to the among the employees and, undoubtedly, amendments made by the Council. should be corrected. The amendment extends the definition LAND DRAINAGE ACT AMENDMENT of "mine worker" to include any person BILL employed as a consultant In or about a Assembly's Message coal mine after a period of two months of Message from the Assembly received and such employment. read notifying that it had agreed to the Under the Act as it exists at present, amendments made by the Council. payments for child allowance are consider- ed as income when social service benefits FIRE BRIGADES ACT AMENDMENT are being computed, and because of this BILL the social service entitlements of the Receipt and First Reading parent are minimised. Bill received from the Assembly; and, It is felt that this Procedure is unjust on motion by The Hon. R. H. C. Stubbs and, therefore, an amendment is proposed (Chief Secretary), read a first time. to section 9 of the principal Act so that 4686 [COUNCIL.1

the payment of child allowance becomes The Minister also pointed out certain a trustee payment to the parent or guar- aspects of discrimination against Asiatics dian. and Africans which-and I repeat the A further amendment is proposed to sub- word he used-persisted in the Mining section (4) of section 9 of the Act so that Act and which are to be deleted by the the payment of child allowance may be amending Bill presently before Parliament. extended for a child over the age of 16 I realise I cannot foreshadow legislation years beyond the present discretionary which is to reach this House, and I do limit of 18 years of age. This will en- not propose to do that, but on the ques- courage children to attain a higher level tioni of discrimination I do intend to remind of tertiary education. members that I introduced a Bill in 1963 The other amendments proposed relate in an attempt to remove racial discrimina- to sections 10A and 21(2). These amend- tion. You, Mr. President, might recall that ments are consequential to the amend- Bill. It was a five-clause Bill to amend ments proposed respectively to sections 9 the Mining Act, and clause 5 read as (1) (b) and 2 (1). follows:- The amendment to section 10A excludes Section two hundred and ninety-one all monies paid "on trust" in the assess- of the principal Act Is repealed. ment of a pensioner's income and it takes It must be remembered that section 291 Into consideration an increase in social of the principal Act reads as follows:- service benefits from $17 to $34.50. Any Asiatic or African alien found Section 21 (2) is amended to make it mining on any Crown land may. by obligatory for both the mine owner and order of the warden, be removed from the "consultant" to comply with the con- any goldfield or mineral field, and tributory sections of the principal Act. whether such person has or has not I commend the Bill to the House. been convicted of an offence against Debate adjourned, on motion by The the last preceding section: and no Asiatic or African alien shall be em- Hon. T. 0. Perry. ployed as a miner or in any capacity whatever in or about any mine, claim, GOLD BUYERS ACT AMENDMENT or authorised holding without the DILL authority, in writing, of the Minister Second Reading first obtained and any such authority granted may be revoked by the Minis- Debate resumed from the 31st October. ter at any time. THE HON. A. F. GRIFFITH (North I am Interested to observe the change In Metropolitan-Leader of the Opposition) attitude of the present Government. I [2.45 pm.]: This is a small Bill con- questioned the discrimination against Asia- taining only two clauses, the effect of tics and aliens. For raising that question wahich will be to amend the proviso to a decade ago. I endured-and I use the section 7 of the principal Act. At the word advisedly and repeat, I endured-- present time the proviso reads as follows:- probably some of the strongest criticism I have ever had to put up with in the 22 Provided that no certificate or years I have been in this Parliament. license shall be issued to any Asiatic of African alien, nor to any person The criticism at the time was such that of Asiatic or African race claiming I think no less than 12 Labor members to be a British subject, without the spoke on that Bill. The remarks of The authority in writing of the Minister Hon. F. J. S. Wise are recorded at page first obtained, nor to any manufacturer 754 of the 1962 HasardI; those of The Hon. of jewellery or other manufacturer of 3. Dolan are recorded at page 933; the gold. late I-on. J. D. Teahan's remarks are The deletion of the words contained in recorded at page 397; The Hon. E. M. clause 2 of the Bill will mean that the Heenan's remarks are recorded at page 939; the remarks of The Hon. D. P. Dellar prcviso will read as follows:- -the father of Mr. Dellar who is at present Provided that no certificate or a member of this House-are recorded at license shall be issued to any manufac- Page 939; the remarks of The Hon. R. H. turer of jewellery or other manufac- C. Stubbs, the Minister who introduced turer of gold, the Bill we are now discussing-, are recor- That is the simple effect of the amendment ded at page 240. and, as the Minister who introduced the Bill indicated. Australia has signed the The Hon. Olive Griffiths: It would be International Convention on the ellinina- Interesting to hear what he said on that tioni of all forms of racial discrimination. occasion. That convention was signed in 1966 and The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: The remarks t!-. Minister asked us to recall that of the late Hon. J. J. Garrigan are Pa-iiament had recently repealed native recorded at page 941: those of the late cittzenship rights, which became redundant Hon. H. C. Strickland are recorded at page upcr-n the Aborigines being given drinking 942; the late Hon. F. R. Hr. Lavery's rights under the Liquor Act. remarks are recorded at page 945; The [Thursday, 2 November, 1972] 468788

Hon. Ri. Thompson's remarks are recorded Asians and Africans. In the words of the at page 947; and the remarks of The Hon. Minister when introducing the Bill that Mrs. R. F. Hutchison are recorded at page is now before us-- 948. The only remarks I could not find Certain aspects of discrimination were those of the Present Leader of the against Asiatics and Africans which House: I do not think he had anything to have Persisted in the Mining Act are say on the Bill. to be deleted by the Mining Bill pte- I took a mighty thrashing over that Bill. sently before Parliament. the purpose of which was to remove dis- Mr. Ron Thompson, with his good memory, crimination to allow some Japanese who will remember how he persisted at the were likely to invest money in our country time. at the time to enter mines to look to their I merely want to draw attention to the investments and the like. It will be recol- fact that one Labor member after another lected I was accused of making a deal with -12 in all, and there were 13 Labor mem- the Japanese to bring thousands of Japa- bers in this Chamber at the time- nese to this State to take jobs away from criticised the Bill that was introduced in our own people. 1963. They were the days when people Yesterday afternoon, with one ear on were elected to this Chamber on a re- another debate that was In progress, I stricted franchise. While I know it would amused myself by going through the 1963 be mare appropriate to make a speech on volumes of Hansard which I had in front the franchise in this Chamber on another of me. It was amusing to go over what occasion, I recall the time when the was said in 1963 and reconstruct in my franchise was restricted and the Labor mind the concentrated balderdash that Party had 13 members: now it has 10 went on at the time. Mr. Dolan will members. Every one of those speeches remember his remarks. He said he did not was aimed at the same thing right down qualify as a miner but he had taught the line. children on the goldfields and thought Now, nine years later, and in less than therefore he ought to have a swing at me. a decade, the Labor Party changes its views in relation to the arrangements The Hon. J. Dolan: Not literally. made and entered into by the Previous The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: No, not Government, fulfils the contracts and literally. Mr. Stubbs' remarks at page 940 arrangements made and the agreements were very iteresting. He said- put forward to Parliament by the previous Government, and brings down a little Bill I too am a little concerned about of two clauses to remove from the Gold this subject, representing as I do a Buyers Act any discrimination against mining area. I can un.derstand the Asians and Africans. minister wanting the Japanese or the Asians to protect their own interests. The Hon. D. K. Dans: Would you not These people are investing money, and agree we were a progressive party, as they have to protect their interests. I regards our opinion on Rled China? can quite understand that. But I hope The Hon. A. P. GRIFFITH: I agree. The we can get over this difficulty in some Labor Party is going one step forwards way or other without letting them into and two steps backwards. Before long I the mining industry. think the backward steps will be more There is not much left for me to frequent than the forward steps. If the say about honourable member would like me to tell this measure, because Mr.' him the story about Red China- Dolan, Mr. Heenan, and other memn- bers have covered it. It looks as The Hon. D. K. Dans: No. though it has been introduced primarily The PRESIDENT: Order! The honour- In connection with the iron ore and able member will confine himself to thle copper mines of the north. Bill. Then the Bill went to another place and- goodness gracious met-the extravagant The Hon. A. F. GRIFF37ITH: Yes, S!r. claims that were made there as regards my The interjection has nothing to do with activities as a Minister have to be read to the Bill. I support the Bill because I be- be believed. lieve Australia should be doing what the Bill sets out to do. As has been recorded, Mr. Stubbs and Mir. Ron Thompson Australia has signed the convention and might be interested to read the remarks some delay has occurred in putting it into they made at the time. effect, but the belief I have in respect, of removing the Proviso from the Gold The Hon. R. Thompson: I can recall Buyers Act is no different from the belief what I said and I can recall what the Bill I had in 1963 when attempting to remove was about, too. It was totally different the restriction in the Mining Act at that from this one. time. The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: It was not I take the opportunity to point out that different from this one. It aimed simply in less than a decade the Chief Secretary to remove the discrimination against makes a simple, short speech telling us 4688 (COUJNCIL.) what the Government intends to do. while This, of course, is an admission that the volumes of Mansard nine years ago every Labor member in this Chamber at are full of objections by the same political that time had no intention whatever of Party to what the Government of that day considering the Bill on its merits--they wanted to do in exactly the same circum- were merely playing dirty, cheap, politics. stances. I like to see this change of face. The Hon. R. H. C. Stubbs: I did not say and I support the Bill. 'dirty, cheap, politics". The Hon. R. J. L. Williams: Before You Mr. Leader- The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: The Min- sit down, ister said cheap politics; we will delete the The PRESIDENT: Order! The Chief word dirty if he wishes. I still recall the Secretary. manner in which the members of the Minister's party in another place derided THE HON. iR. H. C. STUBBS (South- and reviled me at the time. This is East--Minister for Local Government) recorded In Mansard. [3.00 p.m.]: I thank the Leader of the Opposition for what he has said about the The Hon. R. H. C. Stubbs: Did I or any Bill. He Pointed out what it contained other member do so to that extent? and also indicated what would remain in The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: The Chief the legislation after the relevant portion Secretary obviously knows the extent to is deleted. I agree there was some con- which I was reviled in another place. It sternation in 1963. is very interesting to hear a Minister of The Hon. A. P. Griffith: Is that what the Government say that cheap politics You call it? were played. The Hon. H. H. C. STUBBS: Yes. We The Hon. R. H. C. Stubbs: I think the aimply did the same as may have been word "cheap" is yours. done by the honourable member in his The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: I recall the line of business--we played politics. We allegations and assertions of dishonesty did so for the simple reason that the that were levelled against me, and I com- People in the goldmining areas were very mend the Hansards to the Chief Secretary disturbed in the light of events at the and suggest that he read them again. It time. It is, of course, a different proposi- is possible he may feel sorry for having tion now. made such a remark; that the allegations The Hon. F. D. Willynott: You mean it made against my honesty merely consti- took them nine Years to catch up with us. tuted cheap politics. The Chief Secretary The Hon. R. H. C. STUJBES: Not neces- ought to be ashamed of himself. 4sariy, but it may take the Opposition nine The Hon. Rt. H. C. Stubbs: You put in or ten years to catch up with us. The the word "cheap". important thing is that we agree there The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: We will should be no discrimination. my colleague, leave out the word "cheap" if the Min- the Minister for Police, recently did some- ister wishes, because it Is of no value at thing to remove discrimination in connec- all. tion with Aslatics being able to license It disgusts me to think that a political guns. party will descend to this level and nine Moat of the People in the mining indus- years later a Minister of the Crown will try and Particularly those on the goldields get up and say "We were playing politics.", contacted us at the time. In the light of This is Just too much. events, however, we have found that things have not been quite as drastic as For my part, the Bill, for what it is worth we thought they might have been. If we can go. I hope I do not hear anything are big enough to admit this what is like that again in this Chamber; I hope I wrong with it? do not hear a Minister of the Crown say, "All we were doing was playing politics. Question put and passed. We did not have any regard for the fact Bill read a second time. that the Bill contained an amendment to an Act which was restrictive." It looks as In Committee though Mr. Dolan wants to have a go. The Deputy Chairman of Committees The Hon. J. Dolan: I told my Colleague (The Hon. F. D. Willxnott) in the Chair; I would like to speak before he does. The Hon. R. H. C. Stubbs (Minister for Local Government) in charge of the Bill. The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: Nine years later the Government Is prepared to bring Clause 1 Put and Passed. down a Bill and say "We did not mean any Clause 2: Section 7 amended- of that: we were Just playing politics." I would like the Chief Secretary to be a The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: I am con- little more dinkum. and not make a con- strained to make some comment on the fession like that. words uttered by the Chief Secretary to the effect that "We over here played The Hon. J. DOLAN: The Leader of the Politics with the Bill that you Introduced Opposition was inclined to insinuate that in 1963." I made reference to his personal integrity [Thursday, 2 November. 1972] 4689 and so on. If he finds any words of mine We had just passed through a recession in Hansard to that effect I will tear them and we had a great deal of unemployment up and eat them. I never make insinu- throughout Australia. It was honestly ations about any member in this Chamber thought, by people responsible for the em- or anywhere else. ployment of Australian workers, that we could return to the indentured labour that The Hon. A. F. Griffith: I said members had been prevalent in the north-west in in another Place had said this. You are the early years of this century. It was Protesting too much. with that thought in mind that opposition The Hon. J. DOLAN: The Leader of the was raised against the Hill at the time; Opposition referred to the fact that we not because the person concerned was an are playing politics here. If I remember Asiatic or of some other nationallty; it correctly I took the adjournment and was was because of the circumstances we had the first speaker on our side. experienced at that time. The Hon. A. F. Griffith: I do not think The amendment in this Bill seeks to do very little more than allow an Asiatic to you know. be a gold buyer. In 1963 it was sought The Hon. J. DOLAN: I related some of to remove the restriction imposed on an the unhappy history of the Asiatics in our Asiatic to prevent him from working in a goldfields and said we were not happy at mine. I support the Minister in this the Prospect of what would happen in the amendment because it follows on and al- north. That was because of the matters lows an Asiatic to become a gold buyer. that developed before 1963. The Hon. G. C. MacKINqNON: I wish to I make no apology for what I said on quote some remarks that were made In that occasion because I treated the Bill on 1963 by a member of this House, because its merits. it is difficult to match them with the re- The Hon. R. F. Claughton: It was a pro- marks thn't have just been made by Mr. posal to bring these people into the north. Ron Thompson. I quote from page 935 of Vol. 1 of the 1Q63 Parlamentary Debates The Hon. A. F. Griffith: It was nothing as follows:- of the kind. I s- cgzst to members that the sec- The Hon. G. C. Maclcinnon: That was tion of the Act in question was placed a fairy story you made up. there in the first instance because of the danger that experience had shown The Hon. J. DOLAN: I am not a dirty is associated always with Asiatics on debater. I suppose there is nobody In this mining flls. I feel we owe a deep House who is less political than I am. I debt of gratitude to the legislators would not like the Leader of the Oppo- in those far-off days who realised the sition to even think that I would say any- danger and who put that section Into thing derogatory or talk about playing the Act. politics. That quotation is taken from a speech The Hon. A. F. GRIITH: If the Mini- made by Mr. Dolan in that year. ster for Pollee will have a look at the remarks I made he will find that I referred The Hon. 3. Dolan: Keep going. to the manner In which I was spoken The Hon. 0. 0. MacKINNON: He does about in another place. not refer to unemployment, but to the For Mr. Claughton's benefit the Bill that danger of Asiatics being employed on the was introduced had nothing whatever to goldfields. In the same speech, Mr. Dolan do with bringing In Aslatics into this coun- went on to say- try. It merely sought to repeal a particu- I believe it in no way hinders the lar clause and to remove discrimination interests those people have in the -which this Bill would remove-from the mining section of our north. I would Gold Buyers Act. not like to be a party to anything which could in any way hinder the I will say no more except to repeat that advancement or the development of it is not very pleasant to hear a Minister our State. However, I believe that a of the Crown get up and say, after nine section of this nature must remain in years, that his colleagues in another place the Act as a safeguard. were just playing party politics when they were Impugning my honesty. In referring back to what Mr. Dolan had said previously, the safeguard was. "the The Hon. R. THOMPSON: In 1963 the danger that experience had shown Is as- Act that was up for amendment was the sociated always with Asiatics on mining Mining Act and, if I remember correctly, fields." This was straight out racial intol- the Passage deleted from that Act was that erance. which excluded Aslatics working in close nroxlmlty to a mine. At that time progress The Hon. Cive Griffiths: Was not that was Just beginning to be made in the the Hill in regard to which the then Gov- north. ernment was asked to resign? (11181 4690 4690[COUNCIL.]

The Hon. 0. C. MacKINNON: Everyone tion was not as serious as we first thought. had a shot at it, and one can quote I make no apology for what I said on that similar extracts from the speeches that occasion, because I thought I was doing were made during the debate at that time. the right thing. I emphasise that what I have just quoted The Hon. A. F. Griffith; You said you does not square-up with 'what Mr. Ron were playing politics. Thompson has said. The Hon. R. H. C. STUBBS: Yes, in the The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: I have ob- same way as the present Opposition plays tained my satisfaction from this debate. politics. All I wished to point out was how serious- The Hon. ly the Labor Party considered the legisla- A. F. Griffith: The Japanese Lion that was introduced previously, and I were very upset with your playing politics am grateful to Mr. Clive Griffiths for re- at the time. minding me that the then Government The Hon. R. H. C. STUBBS: So they was called upon to resign over that legis- might have been, but they have made in- lation. Therefore, It was not only a, matter roads Into mining generally. I make no of playing politics by the Labor Party at apology for what I said at the tune. We that time, but the Government of the day on the goldfields were very concerned about was also called upon to resign by the mem- the position and we only did what would ber whom I succeeded as Minister. I refer have been done by any goldflelds member. to Mr. Arthur Moir who said in another The Hon. Clive Griffiths: Are you con- place, "The Government should resign." cerned about this Bill? Therefore new members In this Chamber The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: The Chief will gain some idea of what takes place on Secretary knows that at the time the occasions, We have a series of events; a Labor Party was concerned about the Bill being introduced, and the members of intention to repeal section 291 of the the Labor Party adopting an attitude to- Mining Act so that the Government of the wards it-this is on record in Mansard- day could allow Japanese to enter Aus- and saying many things against it, includ- tralia to work in our mines. In Mansard ing a call upon the Government to resign. it is recorded that some members said, Then, nine years later we have a Minister "We do not want these people taking away of the present Government saying, "We jobs from our fellows." did not mean all that: we were only play- The Hon. R. H. C. Stubbs: That was ing politics." When I attended another the thought at the time. place nine years ago and heard what was The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: At the time said by the members in that Chamber, to I tried my level best to point out that this me they did not appear to be playing poli- was not the intention behind the proposal tics. If they were, it was a fairly harsh to repeal that section. It was simply to sort of game. However, I will let the mat- allow the people concerned to participate ter go at that. I have had the satisfac- in the investments they were making by tion of calling to the minds of those who permitting them to enter a mine to super- have been in the Chamber for some years, vise the work being performed. At the that the Minister has openly and frankly time, and unbeknown to me until I learned admitted that it was merely a question of about it subsequently, there were a couple of playing politics. Japanese who were employing themselves The Hon. R. H. C. STUlBBS: All I want in a mine in the north, but there was no to say is that when I said the then Oppo- intention on the part of the then Govern- sition was playing politics I meant it in ment to introduce anything here that the light In which it was said. What I would jeopardise the employment of any mieant was that at that particular time other person. I now know that the Oppo- goldmining was not very prosperous and sition at that time was only Playing poli- we were receiving objections, Principally tics, but I wish I had known that nine from unionists, from all over Australia. Years ago. We were concerned and we brought the Clause put and passed. matter up, in the manner that is adopted by the present members of the Opposition Title put and passed. when submitting protests made to them on particular issues. A short time ago the Report Leader of the Opposition spoke of stand- Bill reported, without amendment, and ing up and taking punishment. I have the report adopted. taken my punishment also, and I am not squealing about it. Third Reading Bill read a third time, on motion by The The Hon. A. F. Griffith: I am not Hon. R, H. C. Stubbs (Minister for Local squealing; I am merely defending. Government), and passed. The Hon. R. H. C. STUB3BS: I am merely telling the members of the Com- STOCK (BRANDS AND MOVEMENT) mittee what happened. We had to do a ACT AMENDMENT job for our electorate in the way we BILL thought was right at the time. With the Second Reading passing of time we have realised the posi- Debate resumed from the 31st October. [Thursday. 2 November, 1972] 469169

THE BION. J. DOLAN (South-East certain size, and the question of legibility Metropolitan-Minister for Police) [3.21 is also of importance. The idea, of course, p.m.]: I thank those members who con- was to give a little flexibility to the depart- tributed to the debate; that Is, Mr. Heit- ment to deal with any difficulties that man, Mr. Syd Thompson, and Mr. Words- may be experienced, as was the case under worth. Some general statements were the amendments. made and several questions asked the The Ron. J. Heitman: Did they give answers to which I undertook to obtain. any idea of what they thought would be First of all, Mr. Syd Thompson asked a correct size? whether there was a definition of the word The Hon. J. DOLAN: No. The officers "rim". It Is defined in the Act Under would use their discretion, and their Judg- the definitions, but I obtained the follow- ment would be based on the representa- ing more thorough explanation from the tions made by individual farmers. department:- I doubt whether I can say much more One owner needs only one brand for of value. I suppose we will have a similar all Ploperties. However, if his pro- -Bill presented to us~ In a couple of years. perties are in different districts, It is -It Is something like the Dog Act and the advisable to have a branding instru- Local Government Act. Amendments to ment on each property. these Acts are always before Parliament The department gives a reason, the wisdom for consideration. I think It was Mr. Syd Thompson who of which will be appreciated. It reads- referred to the difficulties inspectors have It is not desirable for him to carry on three-tiered trucks, particularly on a branding equipment around in a vehicle wet day. They would be disinclined to be as he may be asked some embarrassing over-zealous when the rain was pouring questions as to his intentions. How- down and they were soaking wet. I raised ever, should the properties or runs a similar point when we discussed a Bill be in the near vicinity of each other,' a few years ago. I was In the Opposition this Problem would not be encountered. at the time. As a matter of fact, Mr. Loton So the honourable member need have no whom most of us will remember, had me worry whatever. out of bed at first light to view the opera- The Hon. S. T'. J. Thompson: I was not tions at Midland. He pointed out all the talking about the brand. disadvantages and difficulties to which I referred subsequently in the House. Some The Hon. J. DOLAN: The honourable of those difficulties are still with us but, member need not worry. No matter how as time goes by, they will be resolved un- many runs or properties an owner hag, der our legislation. I doubt whether the it is quite all right and one brand is co- Act will ever be perfect, but if that day is sidered sufficient. reached we will send copies of it to the From the speech of Mr. Wordsworth we other States to help them reach our state gleaned hie had two queries. The first re- lates to horses his daughters were riding of perfection. and he wanted to know about the Prob- I again thank those members who con- lems. The following Is the reply of the tributed to the debate. As I consider the department:- Bill will improve the Act, I commend it to Section (2) of regulation 20 reads as the House. follows:- Question put and passed. "The types of stock Prescribed Bill read a second time. for the Purposes of section 46 of In Cammittie, etc. the Act are cattle, sheep and Pigs." Bill passed through Committee without Therefore, horses are exempt. debate, reported without amendment, and the report adopted. So Mr. Wordsworth need have no Worries whatever. The next query concerned Third Reading neighbouring lots and I think I said that Bill read a third time, on motion by The neighbours are not necessarily those who Hon. J. Dolan (Minister for Police), and live in adjoining properties. The depart- passed. ment's explanation is as follows:- Neighbouring lots are not necessar- RESERVES (UNIVERSITY LANDS) ily adjoining properties but refer to BILL Properties in the near vicinity. Second Reading I was interested of course in the opening Debate resumed from the 31st October. query Mr. Heitman raised about brands. He said the important thing Was that they THE BON. A. F. GRIFFITH (North should be legible. I agree that this is the Metropolitan-Leader of the Opposition) main requirement. However, the depart- 13.29 p.m.]: I can support the second ment can run into difficulties if the brands reading of this Bill, but In doing so I would vary in size. For the sake of uniformity like to make one or two comments and ask it is much better for the brands to be a the Minister in charge of the Bill a couple 4692 492[COUNCIL.] of questions. In the first place, as the I would like to see the agreement and Minister said, the purpose of the Bill is to perhaps this could be arranged when the excise from the endowment lands of the Bill is read a third time, or at some other University of Western Australia an area stage the Minister may choose. otherwise, of land to be made available to the Mur- we should be told what is in that agree- doch University. ment and what Is the basis of the appor- Once again, this carries on the founda- tionment between the University of West- tion of the Murdoch University from the ern Australia and the Conservator of time it was proposed by the previous Forests. Government. These are the only two points I raise The Minister also said the Bill provides on this measure. To reiterate, I ask that for the University of Western Australia to we be allowed to look at the plan of the retain its interest in the pine trees piantea land. I also ask that we be allowed to see on the land. I wish to ask two questions the agreement or be told the details of in relation to this measure. The technical the apportionment between the University description of the proposed site is recorded of Western Australia and the Conservator in the schedule to the Bill. 'However, I of Forests, which is mentioned in clause believe a plan was tabled in another place 4 of the Bill. which indicated to members of that I see no necessity to delay the Bill, but Chamber exactly where the land was situ- at some stage between now and the third ated. At some stage-not necessarily reading, I would like these questions to be before the Bill has completed its second answered. With those remarks, I support reading-would the Minister be kind the Bill. enough to table that plan in this Chamber THE HON. J. DOLAN (South-East so that members may study it? Metropolitan-Minister for Police) [3.35 The other point I raise is related to the p.mn.): The Leader of the Opposition has question of the University of Western raised two queries. His first query relates Australia being able to retain its interest to a map and, in this connection, I would in the pine trees planted on the land, as like to state what the Minister for Educa- set out in a deed of agreement between tion said when replying to the Bill in the University of Western Australia and another place. the Forests Department. Clause 4 of the The Minister for Education talked in Bill states- general terms about tile sale of timber, (1) Notwithstanding anything con- without specifically referring to the agree- tained in this Act, The University of ment. However, in connection with the Western Australia shall continue to map he said- be entitled to receive a portion of I also indicate that at the Commit- revenue arising from the marketing tee stage I shall table the map show- of timber plained by the Conservator ing the land concerned, as requested of Forests on the land excised by the by the Deputy Leader of the Opposi- operation of section 2 of this Act. tion. At that time members will be Subolause (2) states- able to marry the pictorial plan with (2) Unless otherwise agreed be- the written description in the Bill, and tween The University of Western Aus- I hope there will be a happy union. tralia and the Conservator of Forests, I will not proceed with the third reading the revenue referred to in subsection today. I will secure that map and lay it (1) of this section shall be appor- on the Table of the House. tioned in the manner specified in the I will also scek details of the agreement agreement referred to as Agreement from the Minister in another place. As a "C" in an agreement made on the 5th matter of fact he gave many details in December, 1033 between The Univer- connection with this because, I under- sity of Western Australia and the stand, a good deal of the timber must be Conservator of Forests. cleared from the site before the building It would seem that the Conservator of can be erected. Consequently, revenue will Forests Is the person Who will have the be derived from this clearing. In connec- say. The Conservator of Forests is subject tion with the apportionment between the to the Government, but he does have con- University of Western Australia and the siderable power on his own account in Forests Department, this may depend upon relation to the forests of our State. an agreement between the two. I wish to know the details of that agree- The Hon. A. F. Griffith: But there is ment. Is Parliament expected to agree to an agreement. something, the details of wvhich are not The Hon. J. DOLAN: I realise this, but known? The speech notes merely state there may still be some bargaining that the university is to retain its interest. between the two parties. Unless it is otherwise agreed between the The Hon. A. F. Griffith: The clause is University of Western Australia and the quite dlear. It states that, unless other- Conservator of Forests, the revenue refer- wise agreed, they shall receive their red to shall be apportioned in the manner apportionment. I would like to know what specified in the agreement. is the apportionment. [Thursday, 2 November, 19121 494693

The Hon. J. DOLAN: Very well. I will It is probably true to say that we in do my utmost to find out from the Min- this State, as a community of people, en- ister in another place what is the appor- joy a degree of freedom to go about our tionment and what are the details of the learning, our work, our pleasure, our agreement. In this way, the Leader of family affairs, and our sporting pursuits. the Opposition will be able to see the We have the freedom to enjoy participat- details, or else I will table them in the ing in sporting activities or to enjoy sport House. With those comments, I commend as spectators. However, in recent years in the Bill. this State we have had some very ugly Question put and passed. scenes where a minority group has endeav- Bill read a second time. oured to impose its views on a majority group in a sporting situation. So perhaps In Committee, etc. this freedom is being a little reduced in our community. Bill passed through Committee without debate, reported without amendment, and In all the activities in which we engage, the report adopted. we are subjected to laws, regulations, pro- clamations, and even simple rules. My GUARDIANSHIP OF CHILDREN BILL main purpose today is to debate the ulti- Returned mate penalty-that of death. It may be that the whole structure and range of our Hill returned from the Assembly with guidelines for society should be reviewed, amendments. and this may be true of the whole range of Penalties. However, I suggest this would PARLIAMENTARY SALARIES AND be a tremendous task. It is a task beyond ALLOWANCES ACT AMENDMENT BILL the ability of any person or any one nation to undertake. I believe it is an impossible Receipt and First Reading task, important though it is. We should Bill received from the Assembly: and, on review our conduct in life and the penal- motion by The I-on. 3. Dolan (Minister for ties imposed on those who offend against Police), read a first time. society in the changing circumstances. The death penalty is but one Penalty and this ACTS AMENDMENT (ABOLITION OF legislation refers to others. THE PUNISHMENT OF DEATH AND WHIPPING) BILL We need to rethink our attitudes in many ways. I1am in full accord with pro- Second Reading gress and the aim towards enlightenment. flebate resumed from the 1st November. In fact, we should be an enlightened State and an enlightened nofi n, hut I wonder THE HON. V. J. FERRY (South-West) what this term actually means. Does it [3.41 p.m.]: This legislation gives us the mean enlightenment in one direction and opportunity to take stock of ourselves and retrogression in another? We must be very to decide just where we are headed as a careful in deciding how enlightened our community. By what standards of be- community should be, because what may haviour will we abide? What degrees of be a desirable step in one direction may tolerance will be allowed in social behavi- upset the balance in many others. our? What methods and degrees of cor- Sitting suspended from 3.46 to 4.04 p.m. rection should we employ against those adjudged to have offended against com- The Hon. V. J. FERRY: I find it diffi- munity standards? cult to understand the attitudes of some people. There are those who, at times, I venture to suggest that community favour the abolition of capital punishment; standards can be described as those which on the other hand, at other times they are generally accepted by the majority of tend to be in favour of abortion on de- people in a given situation. I believe this mand. To me there appears to be some is a case of majority rule, with the em- conflict inasmuch as in each case we are phasis on reasonable behaviour. dealing with human life. I make the com- Whether we are speaking of a nation, ment in passing because I believe it has a community of nations, a State, a pro- relevance to the way in which we think vince, or individuals, this is a major or do not think in respect of the taking problem of long standing. I say this be- of life. cause I believe from time immemorial the difficulty has arisen as to where we should As I said earlier, there are various forms draw the line in respect to Punishment. of offences against society. Let us con- sider for a moment the origin of law and In my opinion the most serious provision order. Let us consider law and order in in the legislation before us is the abolition the most primitive days of civilisation upon of the death penalty. This is probably a earth-maybe it was not civilisation; simplification of the Bill because it also definitions of what is civilised and what deals with a number of situations where is not could vary. I believe it is a basic Punishment has to be meted out under instinct in human beings-as it is in every certain circumstances. living thing, be it animal, insect, bird, or 4694 4894[COUNCIL.] whatever-to have the right to defend agreements, or assurances: or participating oneself. If in defending oneself it means In a common plan or conspiracy for the taking a course of action, or changing accomplishment of any of those things. courses of action, until nothing else re- mains but the instinct to maintain one's War crimes may be defined in these own life, then one must kill-or murder- terms: Actions such as violations of the one's attacker in order to maintain one's laws or customs of war, such as murder, life and the principles one holds dear. ill-treatment, or deportation of the civil- ian population of occupied territory; mur- It may be the principle of defending der or ill-treatment of prisoners-of-war the right of at village to maintain its form or persons on the seas; killing hostages. of communal living: or it may, In fact, or the plunder of public or private prop- be the right to defend one's country erty; wanton destruction of cities, towns. against aggressors from another country. or villages; or devastation not justified by Ho~wever, if in adopting that line of defence military necessity. one is obliged to kill, that constitutes taking life. Yet in these circumstances, as Crimes against humanity comprise mur- I understand it, there is license to do so. der, extermination, enslavement, deporta- I have said it is basic to all living things tion, and other inhumane acts committed to have a license to kill, if necessary, to against any civilian on racial or religious defend their own lives or whatever they grounds in execution of, or in connection hold dear as being true and correct in with, any other war crime. I will refer their society. again to those three definitions. The exercise of that right to kill, of However, before doing so I would like course, involves all the nations of the quickly to give one or two instances of what world. When we consider the global scene has happened in the way of trials of a -and I do not believe we can consider the national or an international nature in by- abolition of the death sentence in Isolation gone days. I refer firstly to trials of indi- from the rest of the world-we must draw viduals for specific violations of the laws comparisons and try to understand what or customs of war. The so-called con- has gone before and what are our hopes ventional crimes have a long history. It for the future. Therefore, when we are is recorded that the Scottish national hero, discussing the measure before us at the Sir William Wallace, was tried in England moment, we are not discussing what we in 1305 for the war-time murder of civil- in Western Australia will or will not allow ians. He allegedly spared neither age nor in isolation, because our attitudes must be sex, monk nor nun. coloured to some extent by what has been the position throughout the ages, and what When the American Civil War ended in has been the situation between nations 1865, a person by the name of Henry for a very long time. Wirz, who was a former Confederate offi- cer, was tried and convicted by a Federal We must have regard for international military tribunal, and was executed, for law, as it has been proclaimed from time murdering and conspiring to ill-treat Fed- to time. Speaking of international law and eral prisoners-of-war confined at a prison- crimes against humanity, generally, one er-of-war camp in a place called Ander- calls to mind very readily the open conflict sonville. Apparently Henry Wirz was the between nations or groups of nations- commandant of that camp. He was found and there have been many over the cen- guilty of murdering prisoners-of-war and turkes during which man has been on earth. was executed. I suppose, unfortunately, there will be many more to come. I trust not, but know- I now refer to the trial of Nazi leaders ing human nature I would hazard a guess in more recent times in what we have that strife will occur from time to time. come to know as the Nuremberg trials. Before these trials commenced a great When we are speaking of taking life In deal of negotiations and discussions took this context, it is interesting to study Place between nations regarding what what has happened in more recent times. action should be taken against those who I refer Particularly to the World War IT offended against humanity in World War situation. II. A small group of nations joined to- gether, and they were joined by others The term "war crimes" has never been later. In August, 1945, representatives successfully defined. However, after World of the United States of America, the Uni- War II three categories of offences against ted Kingdom, the U.S.S.R., and the pro- the law of nations came to be recognised. visional Governmnent of France signed what Those were: crimes against peace; war Was--and still is-known as the London crimes, also called conventional war Agreement. That agreement included a crimes; and crimes against humanity. charter for an international military tri- bunal. In the first place, crimes against peace include planning, preparing for, initiating, The purpose of this tribunal was to try or waging a war of aggression, or a war major Axis war criminals whose offences in violation of international treaties, had no particular geographic location, [Thursday, 2 November. 1972] 469569

bearing in mind this was a global conflict again. The tribunal found the crimes were and therefore it was difficult to designate too hideous altogether and against all any one particular area. in which any one laws of decency to allow the offenders the particular crime may or may not have right to breathe air for very much longer. been perpetrated. We have only to think of the types of I have mentioned that the representa- murders that were perpetrated during these Lives of the four major countries came to- Years when millions of people, Innocent gether, but later some 19 other Govern- and otherwise, were murdered. Those who ments joined In and adhered to this agree- caused these murders deserved to die, be- ment. It was from that agreement that the cause we have to abide by the standards categories of crime were defined, and I by which society lives. mentioned the various categories earlier In my address. It was as a result of these In Western Australia we have to draw nations coming together and establishing up laws and abide by those laws in order standards by which they were able to try to protect the community. If in the ulti- their fellow men who had offended against mate through the process of law and proper society on earth that the Nuremberg trials trials, it is found that those offending were held. It is history that the Nurem- against the law do so to such a degree that berg trials lasted almost 12 months, and they are no longer regarded as acceptable I think they were conducted in four beings In the community, then they should languages. be hanged. It Is interesting to read the proceedings, I believe there are certain peoples on the findings, and the results of those trials. this earth, In particular one race, who it It is my understanding that 22 individual is alleged Indulge in capital punishment. defendants ultimately remained. Of these one form Is referred to as pointing the three were acquitted, three were sentenced bone. I suppose this practice has an effect to life imprisonment, four were sentenced and the person against whom the bone Is to terms of imprisonment ranging from 10 pointed dies ultimately. In fact, this is to 20 years, and 12 were sentenced to death capital punishment in another form. this by hanging. is the policy and the practice of a particu- lar race of people, and they have applied I believe the result achieved by this tri- that practice for a long time. I understand bunal is in keeping with the Bill before they have existed in Australia for a very us, because the Bill contains provisions, long period. among other things, relating to the death penalty and other forms of punishment. it So, there is nothing new in capital will be seen that this international tribu- punishment. It is a basic human value nal, comprising the bulk of thinking people that one should have the right to defend of the world, came up with a standard by oneself, either personally, collectively, as which the defendants were tried. There a nation, or as a community of nations. were quite a number of acquittals before If there is no other course open one is the last 22 defendants were dealt with. In entitled ultimately to take life. the ultimate only 12 of them were adjudged to receive the death penalty by hanging. Throughout the ages there has been a history of law and order. It has been recog- They were not all hanged, because at nised, and it has been said in this debate, least one of them took his own life before there are some people in the world who the law could take it from him. So, there have no regard whatsoever for the value is a point somewhere along the line where of human life. I need not dwell on that men have to take a stand, and apparently aspect. It has been proved that there are this is the standard which is acceptable to people who have no regard for human the majority of thinking people on this life. earth. I say "apparently" because I do In very recent times we are able to not know whether It is true, but I believe recall instances where people have placed it to be true for the very reason that man explosives in aircraft for no reason other has a right to defend himself; and if all than to further their selfish interests. else falls he Is entitled to take life. These people had no regard for the deaths During the course of this debate we have or injuries they might cause. This is just heard of specific cases where certain crim- one incident I can recall, but there are inals have murdered, been Imprisoned, others. been released, and murdered again in I believe there is a real need to retain society. There would be no guarantee that the death penalty in Western Australia. the 12 men sentenced to death by the In support of that we know the poolice Nuremberg tribunal would not have offen- officers and the prison officers take the ded against society in later years upon view that the retention of the death their release. Apparently the tribunal was penalty is necessary. Who are we to deny satisfied at the time there was no assur- these people-those who protect the mem- ance that these people would not offend bers of the community-their own right 4696 4696[COUNCIL.] to protection? If we take away their pro- concerned with the showing of sympathy tection we cannot expect full co-operation and mercy to the wrong-doer. 1, for one, and protection from them in the enforce- would have the greatest compassion for a ment of the law. Tf for no other reason, wrong-doer, and would give him or her I believe it is right and proper that the every chance to prove his or her innocence. retention of the death penalty should remain for eases where a police officer is The Hon. Rt. Thompson: You are miss- murdered in the course of his duty. If lag one point. The law does not hang the the murder is proved beyond all reasonable people; it is the Cabinet that hangs doubt then the convicted person should people. be hanged. The Hon. V. J. FERRY: If the death I take the view which some other people penalty were abolished in this State by have taken: I believe that the retention legislation there would be no alternative of the death penalty in the Criminal Code but to reprieve a murderer and impose a is a deterrent. However, no-one can prove term of imprisonment. Such a person it is, but I believe it to be a deterrent. would be eventually released into society, and he might again commit murder. tRnowing something about human com- passion and the faults and frailties of The existing provisions in the Criminal human beings T cannot help feeling that Code appear to be reasonable; and they somewhere along the line there are people are available to be used. If the circum- stances of a crime are serious enough to who would take advantage if capital warrant the punishment were abolished. They will say, imposition of the death "I will take the risk. The worst that can penalty then it should be imposed. How- happen to me is that I will be sent to ever, provision is made for the showing of gaol, but I will retain my life. I will take mercy and for the exercise of the Royal the life of another because I can only be prerogative. That is not a bad provision. sent to gaol." That sort of attitude should We allow flexibility in this law. If we not be encouraged in our community. abolish the death penalty there will be no means by which capital punishment can If we abolish the death penalty I wonder be meted out where it is warranted. I do where society will be heading? Will we not believe that the existing provisions be destroying ourselves? I refer to my should be deleted; they are better left as earlier remarks about the basic right of they are. a human being to defend himself until death. If we do not maintain this right how I repeat that compassion and mercy are we to maintain the standards by which may be applied, and an opportunity is society lives? We must use a full-stop given for the exercise of the Royal pre- somewhere. I wonder how society in gene- rogative. If the Government negates its ral will feel if we allow people to mur- responsibilities it will leave the people of der innocent baby-sitters who may be this State unguarded. sitting in a lounge. There was such a case when a baby-sitter was shot through the head for no reason except that she hap- THE HON. D. K. DANS (South Metro- pened to be sitting in the lounge and the politan) [4.29 p.m.]: I rise to support the murderer took it upon himself to take her Hill. because it relates to a subject that life. The murdered person had no chance concerns me deeply. I thank Mr. Williams whatsoever. It was a premeditated and a for putting up a very excellent case on cold-blooded murder. No-one has the right behalf of the retention of the death to take life in such penalty. Probably he has canvassed all the circumstances. views that are available in this State. I That sort of crime has occurred in our wish to thank Miss Elliott for putting up community, and it may occur again, a very complete case on behalf of those though I hope it does not. When the who agree with the abolition of the death murderer is tried and sentenced to death penalty. I also thank Mr. Medcalf who, he should not be allowed to live and enjoy with his deep knowledge of the law, came life, when he has denied life to another. in on a very low key and gave us certain views to ponder over. I believe this Government is negating its responsibilities to the people. I take I was particularly disappointed with the the view that an elected Government has speech made by Mr. Logan, as I was with the right and privilege to govern for the some of the terms he used. He referred to benefit of the people as a whole. By people liquidation and suggested that God had I mean all people of all races, creeds, and not spoken to him. In a most unparlia- religions. mentary manner he said, "Yes" that he would hang a man. I wish Mr. Logan It is our duty to give the people the were in the House at the present time. I most complete protection possible, but by do not wish to imply any sense of injustice advocating the abolition of the death against him, but I do not think that what penalty I believe this Government is he had to say had anything to do with the negating its responsibilities. It is not pre- abolition of the death penalty, or was a Pared to protect all the citizens. It is more case for its retention. (Thursday, 2 November, 1972] 469769

I agree that no matter what case is Put order of the State. That is the issue. In forward it is dlifficult to sway a person who our own country of Australia we are prob- has very firm views one way or the other. ably the only State which Is likely to use I am of the opinion that the question of the death penalty. That, of course, brings the death penalty is one which is really us down to another very important aspect outside the political arena. of this grisly method of execution. I will refer to the words of a very prominent The Hon. V. J. Ferry: It is a Govern- Melbourne barrister, Frank Galbally. ment Bill. When dealing with this matter some years The Hon. D. K. DANS: There would be ago he said that the law is mostly a matter an equal number of People in each Poli- of luck. It is more a matter of luck when it comes to capital punishment than it is tically represented party who would be pro when or anti, and to suggest anything different It relates to any other crime com- would be attempting to mislead the House. mitted by mankind. If, on the other hand, we say that the Let us examine the situation which ex- death Penalty, to some extent, does deter ists in Australia. We adopted Federation murderers then we must disagree with the many Years ago. No-one will be hanged case put up by Miss Elliott. If, on the in the State of Queensland and despite other hand, we say the death Penalty does the Country Party-Liberal Party Coali- not deter murders we are brought to the tion, no-one has ever sought to reintroduce situation that the only reason to impose hanging. No-one In New South Wales the death penalty is one of vengeance. It has ever suggested that hanging be rein- would not be vengeance by all the people: troduced. Because of the widespread pub- but by a certain selected few who would be lic disturbances at the time of the last sent by their masters to perform this execution in Victoria it is most unlikely grisly act in the privacy of the hangman's that another hanging will occur in that gallows. So, in fact, we inflict vengeance State. Tasmania has not used this method on the victim, but the rest of the com- of execution for many years. However, munity goes merrily by, many people not a hanging did occur in that State in 1948 even aware that a hanging is taking place. under a Labor Government. A Labor Of course, there are many who do not care Government is in Power In South Aus- and they would not know if they were ask- tralia, so the death penalty will not be ed what was happening. imposed in that State. I am not convinced, of course, that a We then come to our own State, and It hanging occurs because of vengeance. If worries me to think that hanging in this one looks at the rest of the civilised world State depends on which Government is in -and I refer to the western world as the office. The Labor Governmnent may con- civilised world-we find there are only two tinue for some years, perhaps as long as countries which retain the death Penalty. 15 years. I refer to Spain where they inflict the very sophisticated execution by way of the The Hon. J. Heitman; That is stretch- garrott; and to France where, of course, ing it a bit. the guillotine is used. Whilst the guilo- tine may appear to be very grisly I think The Ron. D. K. DANS: Well let us be it is the most effective and humane man- realistic. If Labor remains in office then ner, on the face of this earth, by which to no-one In this State will suffer the su- carry out an execution. preme penalty. If, on the other hand, there is a Liberal Government or a non- One can only come to the conclusion Labor Government in power a person may that whilst Britain, Germany, Italy, Hol- then suffer the supreme penalty. This is land, the majority of the States of the element of luck because It is not America-38 countries in all-are wrong, sufficient to say that a person will always our small segment of Western Australia be hanged for wilful murder. is the most civilised community on the face of the earth and we are right. On the The Ron. W. R. Withers: Is the honour- other hand it could be said that we are able member saying that the policy of the wrong and the rest of our country of Aus- Labor Party will not change at all? tralia is right. I am referring to the other States of Australia-New South The Ron. D). K. DANS: I am assuming Wales, Tasmania, and South Australia. that it will remain humane for many Whilst hanging remains on the Statute years. I cannot decide what our policies book in Victoria, it is unlikely another will be in the future, but perhaps the hanging will occur in that State. honourable member opposite would like to come to our next party conference. I am The Ron. W. R. Withers: But we have a assuming that we will not change our lower rate of crime per capita than the policy so this Is one of the elements of other countries mentioned. luck. The Ron. D). K. DANS: I am not con- Let us proceed a little further. The cerned with statistics; I am concerned first and greatest element of luck is with putting a man to death-murder by whethnv or not one is apprehended. In 4698 4698[COUNCIL.]

almost every ease of a serious crime in I would agree that a terrible crime oc- this country, and indeed overseas, the curred in that city. I think that in the apprehension of a person who sets out heat of the moment I would have had no to commit a wilful murder is least effec- trouble in shooting those terrorists myself. tive. The man who murders in a fit of However, let us examine how this all temper is usually apprehended very quick- began. ly, sometimes even at the scene of the crime. Another person, not quite so bru- I am sure that members in this House tal, may run away but usually the police will recall the activities of the Stern gang are able to apprehend him without much not many years ago. Let me say effort. These are the elements of luck quite definitely I support the cause of which determine whether a man is, in Israel. However, it was the Stern gang to pay the supreme Penalty. which was shooting British soldiers in the fact, back and which hanged Sergeant Davies Of course, into the element of luck in- in an olive grove. The same gang also trudes some very good and sincere legal blew up the King David Hotel and killed advocates. If we check the history of more than 100 people. The world branded crime in Western Australia we will find the Stern gang as terrorists, but today the that although the majority of the people State of Israel brands them as patriots. sincerely believe that certain people were The Paint I am making, of course, is that guilty of murders, because of the elo- violence begets violence, and the people quence and skill of their barristers they who have been driven out of Palestine and have been set free. I admit, on many raised in the refugee camps are now occasions people are set free because of branded as terrorists. However, that does the impact on the jury. not mean that at some time in the future. and even now in some parts of the world, Whilst this element of luck remrains I those people will not be regarded as could not support the retention of capital patriots. punishment. A number of other matters were introduced during the debate, and I The Hon. W. R. Withers: Manx and refer to the question of drug pushers. Of Lenin made the same comments. course, drug pushers are reprehensible people but I do niot think I would go so The Hon. D. K. DANS: I have never far as to say they should suffer the death read the Publications of those two gentle- penalty. It seems to me that many men. However I have read the works of people who talk about drug pushers do an Italian writer on the same subject. not know very much about them. I rea- What I have said is a fact of life and I lise that most people do not know what a do not think anyone can deny the truth drug pusher is and that they have never of my statements. The facts are there for seen a genuine Pusher. I am referring all to see. to the pushers of heroin, morphia, and If we go further and look at the ques- other hard drugs. However, no-one men- tion of executions we have to examine tions those who supply the drugs to the where it begins. Because of the excellent pushers. That Is where the big business contributions made to this debate by Mr. lies. Williams and Miss Elliott it is very diffi- Press reports show that even diplomats cult to convince people. We now see on have been arrested and deported for our television screens Nigerians tied to trafficking in drugs. I recently had the sand-filled oil drums; we see them being opportunity of having lunch in this House Publicly executed by firing squads for the with a prominent Catholic Priest from crime of armed robbery. That does not Sydney. He is an expert on drugs and he deter others because six or seven offenders told rue that the police in New South are being shot each week. And so it goes Wales are convinced that drugs come into on. this country through very reputable busi- If we examine the question of an eye ness houses organised by people beyond for an eye, a life for a life, and a tooth the management. I have not been able for a tooth, we come back to ancient to verily those remarks. Hebrew law. It was a. very good law. How- Of course, drug pushers should be ever, it did discriminate against women punished but let us also consider the drug because for the crime of infidelity a suppliers. In my experience drug pushers woman was driven out of her village and are usually very weak people; they usually stoned to death by all the residents of the take drugs themselves. They are driven village. It was a community action involv- to pushing drugs in desperation so that ing all the people of the village because it was a crime against the laws and the they may continue their own filthy habit. religion of the Jewish people; that every- It has always been suggested that the one had to take part and witness the death penalty should apply to terrorists. punishment. A person was not put to I suppose that one could safely say that death Privately. a terrorist today could quite likely be a So. many questions are left unanswered. Patriot tomorrow. People have been talk- Mr. Ferry mentioned the Nuremberg war ing about the terrorists in Munich and trials. Since those trials were conducted, [Thursday, 2 November, 19723 469969 and certain men 'were convicted and which would enable every member of both hanged, legal minds all over the world Houses of Parliament to make an evalua- have argued the value and the justice of tion and form an opinion. I support the that action. Bill. The world cried for vengeance, and The Hon. W. R. Withers: What punish- vengeance it had to have. People were ment would you mete out instead of mistaken in thinking that by hanging the capital people who were thought to be-and no punishment? doubt were-guilty of crimes against The Hon. D. K, DANS: I am discussing humanity they would prevent these the question of doing away with capital heinous acts being committed again. Of punishment. Perhaps I could deal with course, the same situation occurred in the other matter on another occasion. Japan. Ever since the hanging of General Yamashita, people have argued the same The Hon. W. R. Withers: You have no case-that in fact General Yamashita was answer? quite a decent guy. I am not concerned whether or not he was a decent guy, but The Hon. D. K. DANS: I have an answer. his hanging has not stopped war. We are just witnessing the ending of a THE HON. D. J7, WORDSWORTH war in Vietnam which has been probably (South) (4.49 p.nm.]: This Bill seeks to the most barbaric and inhumane war ever repeal sections of the Criminal Code Perpetrated on the face of this earth, and which prescribe the death sentence for during which bombs disguised as field treason, piracy, wilful murder, and murder, dressings and toyv dolls were dropped and and also sections which p~rescribe the pun- Picked up, exploding in the hands of ishinent of whipping. children. This is a good illustration of the fact that putting an individual to During this session we have had a death never changed a thing. One could series of Interesting debates. The first of go on. these dealt with contraception, in which we debated family planning and the dis- I, for one, do not support a system semnination of information regarding the which, firstly, demands the apprehension prevention of pregnancy. The second was of an individual who, because of political a debate on abortion issues relating to the differences, may or may not hang; and, right to live and the right to conceive. secondly, leaves it to a Cabinet or Execu- We are now discussing the twin subjects of tive Council to decide, depending upon the preventing thc taking of lfe and the hour, the day, the time, and the way it penalty for the crime of taking life. feels, whether or not a person may be reprieved. In these three debates one comes back to one's basic Philosophy of life. I wonder I am concerned that the people of my what actually governs one's basic philo- country should have acquired the name of sophy. Perhaps it Is governed by one's "the red necks of the southern hemisphere." family background and upbringing, and After hearing one of the speeches made even one's schooling. Indeed, the post- here yesterday, I am not surprised that school period has some influence according we have acquired that name. We do not to one's occupation or whether one has even seem to be able to give our people the been to a university. On reaching maturity right and the opportunity to find out just we seem to be fairly fixed in our ideas, what is meant by "capital punishment." particularly as regards the death penalty, and I think our ideas often reflect our I do not know who writes the editorials political outlook. in The West Australian. I usually refer to him as "the oracle of Western Aus- in some countries the overpowering aim tralia" because he seems to be an expert is to survive, particularly in the Asian on everything. Not so long ago I read an countries where not everyone can be editorial in The West Australian 'which guaranteed sufficient food on which to live stated that the majority Of the people in or the money with which to obtain the this State are now against capital punish- essentials of life. I think this gives the ment. I do not know 'whether that is true overcrowded Asian countries a philosophy and there is no way in which I can find which is completely different from the out. However, almost every country in the Australian philosophy. world-including New Zealand and certain States of America-that has dispensed I often wonder whether the Australian with capital punishment has seen fit to philosophy is governed a little by our take this question out of the political theories of "populate or Perish", and immi- arena and put it in the hands of the people gration at any cost. I wonder whether this who are most capable of conducting an causes us to place too high a value on life. inquiry. A retired judge of the Supreme in more populous countries, when it comes Court or the High Court of Australia could to capital punishment, it is a matter of go out among the people, conduct an in- behaving "or else' because there is an- quiry, and submit to Parliament a report other man waiting to take one's place. In 4700 4700COUNCIL.

Australia, few of us have had to fight for justices amongst the law-abiding people survival as the people in Asia have had to in the country to keep us busy. For in- do, and we therefore have a different stance, we have not yet wiped out pov- philosophy. erty and sickness. I think most of us are striving for some I-and no doubt every other member in personal achievement in life. Borne people this House-received from the New Era seem to be satisfied with earning money. Aboriginal ]Fellowship an invitation to go Others are endeavouring to leave the world to the races. The invitation reads-- a better place in which to live, and I think that is perhaps the baste philosophy Buy a ticket and help New Era of most members of Parliament; they are funds to extend medical, legal and endeavouring to make better laws and to accommodation services to Aboriginals remove injustices. Basically, many farmers in our community. do not necessarily want to make money, obviously, there are deficiencies in the they want to supply more food to the Aboriginal community, A criminal re- world, in the same way as doctors are ceives all those services, particularly if he endeavouring to improve the health of is a murderer. I think it would be far people. A large section of our population better to do something about the injus- has fought for the country, and many of tices that already exist amongst our law- them regard that as one of their main abiding citizens. contributions to their country. I agree with what Miss Elliott With this in mind, I have strong feelings said about about removing the death penalty for the background and upbringing of poten- treason. After all, why should any man tial criminals. I think we should spend have the right to destroy the security for more money in this field than in trying to which many people have died? Why should reform convicted criminals. Miss Elliott he live and be cared for by the country said, "I think all they want is love." She against which he has committed treason? might be right. I admit that perhaps in the future it will The Hon. L. D. Elliott: I did not say be much more difficult to decide what is that. treason. In the past, treason has been a matter of the interests of one country The Hon. U. J. WORDSWORTH: Miss versus the interests of another, but in the Elliott said it was one of the things they future I think It will be a matter of required. Perhaps "attention" would be philosophies--perhaps just a matter of a better word. I certainly think our psy- communism versus capitalism. chologists, prison guards, and expenditure would be better employed in seeking a I do not agree with Mr. Dans. that cure. I have been speaking generally and treason includes terrorist activities. I my remarks cover murder and wilful mur- think terrorist activities are completely der. Undoubtedly, there are many mur- different from treason. Treason is an act derers with whom we could have the against one's country. if one accepts Aus- greatest sympathy but, as Mr. Medcall tralia as one's country and regards oneself said , provision is made for clemency in as an Australian, one must not carry out such cases. We have the safeguard of the acts of treason against Australia. Terrorist Royal prerogative, which is usually exer- activities are generally carried out against cised. another country. Accordingly, to my mind the debate on "Piracy" is rather an old-fashioned this Bill resolves Itself entirely Into a mat- description, but as more and more aircraft ter of principle, and I consider the princi- are being hijacked perhaps the definition ple to be that a man cannot expect to be of "Piracy" could be amended to include given the right to live, if he has removed hijacking. I think hijacking Is a serious that right from others. matter because those who hijack aircraft usually do so wilfully as those who commit I am afraid I cannot agree with what preconceived murder, and usually for was said by Mr. Dans, that the matter financial gain. I do not believe we owe depends on the State in which one lives, anything to the person who hijacks an or on whether one has a good lawyer or Is aircraft. caught or not. I feel that In passing this legislation we are laying down principles, Perhaps we could brainwash such people and we are establishing that the Govern- and reform them by spending a lot Of ment In power should not carry out these money in sending them to psychiatrists principles. and hospitals and extending our prisons, but I hold that this country has better Included in the Bill is also the provision uses for such resources. They should be which seeks to delete whipping. Once used in the prevention of crime rather again whipping is seldom used in Western than thle curing of it. If our community Australia; indeed I cannot recall when were perfect, perhaps we could spend whipping was last carried out. I do feel, more time in trying to reform murderers, however, that we should do some soul but in my opinion there are enough in- searching on the question of corporal [Thursday, 2 November, 1972] punishment. When I come to think of it may throw around the place. To carry this I have never actually carried this out on a step further I think it would be quite a my own children, though that does not good Idea if those who committed traffic necessarily mean it is wrong. I recall offences were required to carry a sticker that a few weeks ago my son told me he on their car to show that they have comn- had been caned while at school, but this mitted these offences. We should devise did not cause me any honror. I recall I some means to identify those who commit was caned on many occasions while I was offences against society. at school. Some review should be made of the pro- The Hon. J. Heitman: You must have visions of the law as they relate to carnal been a naughty boy. knowledge and to the age at which cases The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH: I can be heard in the Children's Court. We must have been, but I am sure it did me have reduced the age at which young no harm; on the contrary I feel it has People can vote, as we have the age of done me a lot of good. Mr. Baxter went majority, and I do feel these other as- to some length to describe the birch , and pects of our law could also be reviewed. it seems to me that it is equivalent to a cane which is about 3f t. long and a half I oppose the Bill and support the re- an inch thick; the type of cane which is tention of the punishment of death and used in schools. whipping. The Hon. J. Dolan: As long as it is not Debate adjourned, on motion by The a piece of 3 x 2. Hon. J. Heitman. The Hon. R. Thompson: Did you get the cane at school? MARRIED PERSONS AND CHILDREN The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH: Yes. fSUMA4RY RELIEF) ACT AMENDMENT BILL The Hon. R. Thompson: I did not. Receipt and First Reading The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH: Perhaps that is half the honourable mem- Hill received from the Assembly; and, ber's trouble. I do feel we should consider on motion by The Hon. W. F. Willesee this aspect as it relates to Juveniles. We (Leader of the House), read a first time. appear to go to no end of trouble to try to tell these; young people what the law is all about; that they should obey the law;, QUESTIONS (4): ON NOTICE not always with a great deal of success. I[ LEASES am now thinking particularly In terms of 1. PASTORAL those who carry out gang bashings and Change of ownership the like and who cause physical harm to others. I do not think we should remove The Hon. B. J. L. Williams for this particular provision when we have the Hon. 0. W. BERRY, to the Leader Juveniles who are prepared to cause such of the House: bodily harm. (1) How many pastoral leases in the I think It is high time we reviewed our Kimberley area have changed entire system of punishment in Western ownership since the 1st January, Australia. We seem to have the highest 1970? incidence of gaol occupancy in Australia,, (2) Will the Minister Provide a list of and I often wonder whether our system is the properties which have changed really working successfully by enforcing ownership since the 1st January, fines on people, or by placing them in gaol 1970, giving the names of the and thus depriving them of their leisure. former owners and the names and Accordingly I do not think it is opportune addresses of the present owners to remove punishment by whipping from or shareholdersP our Statute book at this point In time. Perhaps it is a great pity that the idea The Hon. W. F. WILLESEE replied: of stocks has been done away with, because (1) Lands Department records disclose this would help people identify those who that 14 registered transfers have are offending against society, I say that been made since 1st January, 1970. Jokingly, of course, but I do think Registration is a Titles Office we should have some means to indicate function. who It Is that is committing the various offences. (2) A list is Presented hereunder, but this excludes transactions involv- Provision has been made in this State- ing share transfers of which the as is the case in America--whereby people Lands Department keeps no re- are sent out to clean up any litter they cord, 4702 4702COUNCIL.)

STATION NAME FORMER OWNIER PRESENT OWNER

BEDFORD DOWNS QUTLTY, Olive Marion QUILTY, Olive Marion QUILTY, Patrick James QUILTY, Basil John QUILTY, Thomas John QL'ILTY, Patrick James QUILTY, Roderick Thomas Quilty Bros. c/o Bedford Downs Station, WYNDHAM

BOHE-MIA DOWNS RIVER DOWNS PASTORAL CO. BOHEMIA (AUSTRALIA) FEY. LTD. PTY. LTD. Bohemia: Aust.) Pty. Ltd., c/o 3 Ben- nett Street, PERTH.

LOUISA DOWNS .. LOUISA DOWINS PASTORAL CO. LOUISA (AUSTRALIA) PTY. LTD. FEY. LTD. Louisa (Australia) Pty. Ltd., c/0 3 Ben- nett Street, PERTH.

SAUNDERS CREEK GREEN, Mona WILSON, Thomas Mr. T. Wilson, c/o Saunders Creek Station, Box 31, HALLS CREEK.

SPRING VALE.. QUILTY, Thomas John QUILTY, Thomas John QUILTY, Basil John UNDERWOOD, Basil John QUILTY, Olive Marion UNDERWOOD, Olive Marion P. J. Quilty, c/o Spring Vale Station, KUNUJNURRA 6743

CARLTON HILL & NORTHERN AUSTRALIAN HOOKER ESTATES LIMI1TED NINGBIXG ESTATES LIMITED Hooker Estates Ltd., Box 3630 G.P.O., SYDNEY, N.S.W. 2001

HOME VALLE Y .... MfacNA3IARA, Harold William Mark STANSBY, Kevin John K. J, Stausby, Home Valley Station, via WYNDHAM 6740

MITCHELL RIVER 1. WHITELY, Thomas Patrick AMAX MEADOWLARK FARMS WHITELY, Leo Charles (AUSTRALIA) INC. WHITELY, Williama George Amax Meadowlark Farms (Aust.) Inc., 2. MORAN STATION PTY. LTD. c/o 66 Dalkeith Road, NEDLANDS 3. MITCHELL RIVER STATION 6000 FTY. LTD.

MILLIE WINI)IE .. DRISCOLL, Desmond Michael TILATTI, Neoaisio N. Tilatti, e/o 74 Bondi Street, MT. HAWTHORN 6018

DAMIPIER DOWNS GREY, Maria DE-LONG, Petau Petau IDe-Long, c/o Dampier Downs Station, via BROO'LE 6725 KILTO GARVEY...... INTERNATIONAL KILTO PASTORAL COMPANY FEY. (AUS]?.) FEY. LTD. LTD. Kilto Pastoral Co. Pty. Ltd., c/o 3 Ben- nett Street, PERTH 6000

BANTER DOWNS .... DOWLINGI, Samuel Theodore BANTER DOWNS PTY. LTD. Banter Downs Pty. Ltd., e/o R. R. Rowell, 166 St. George's Terrace, PERTH 6000

ARDJORTE AROJORTESTAFFORD, Howard Hastings LE LIEVRE, Phillip Crawford Ardjorie Station, via DERBY [Thursday, 2 November, 1972]

2. This question Was postponed. Grieves X. & Reid .. 9,000 Iwankiw RL. & I. Kal- 3. LAME MARKETING BOARD goorie Aba ttoirs .. 13,000 Hagan, M...... 11,000 Commencement of Operations Kojonup Abattoirs. 5,500 The Ron. N. McNEILL, to the Leader Manj imup Producers of the House'. Abattoirs ... .. 10,000 (1) Is it correct that the Lamb Midwest Abattoirs. .... 6,000 Marketing Board will come into Eastern Districts Abat- operation on the 2nd December, toirs -...... 5,500 1972? Payne Ross & Co. 30,000 Roediger Eros.. 16,000 (2) If so, when is it anticipated that Russell, Reg. & Son .. 10,000 the regulations covering the oper- Tip Top Abattoirs .. 18,000 ations of the Board will be laid Merredin Central Dist. on the Table of the House? Abattoirs 5,500 (3) Who are the authorised agents of the Board? 4. MANJIMlJP CANNING (4) (a) Which abattoirs have nomin- CO-OPERATIVE ated to slaughter lambs for the Board; and Finance (b) what is the stated capacity in 'The Hon. V. J. FERRY, to the Leader each case? of the House: The Ron. W. F. WILLESEE replied: (1) What was the operating profit or loss of the Manjhnup Canning Co- (1) Yes. operative for the- (2) It is intended that the regulations (a) 12 months ended the 30th will be published prior to the Act June, 1972: and coming into operation and the (b) canning period, the 1st Febru- regulations will be laid before the ary, 1972 to the 30th June, House in accordance with the pro- 1972? visions of the Interpretation Act. (2) Has any plant been written off in (3) Dalgety Australia Limited. recent months? Elder Smith Goldsbrough Mort Ltd. (a) If so- Western Livestock LWd. (a) what was the nature of the plant written off: and Westrallan Farmers Co-Operative LtdA. (b) what was its value? (4) (a) and (b) - (4) Is it envisaged that further plant Annual and equipment will have to be Sheep written off ? Abattoir Capacity The Hon. W, P. WILLE1SEE replied: Millions (1) (a) Operating loss to 30th June, Export Works-- 1972 was $124,113.85 but this Metropolitan: figure Is subject to audit. Anchorage ...... 54 (b) Figures not available. Midland Junction .... 2.7 (2) No. W.A.M.E...... 1.25 Country: (3) Answered by (2). Thos. Eortbwick & (4) Not known. Sons ...... 495 House adjourned at 5.11 p.m. Bunbury Beef Exports .675 Green & Sons .... .022 Narngulu ...... 29 West armers (Lynley Valley Meats) . . .56 Southern Meat Pack- iiiiati Aaurmbtgj ers Pty. Ltd...... 56 Thursday, the 2nd November, 1972 Stated Capacity Lambs Per Year The SPEAKER (Mr. Norton) took the Chair at 11.00 tin., and read prayers. Non-Export Abattoirs- Chester Butchers Pty. PIONEER QUARRIES (W.A.) PTY. LTD. Ltd...... 30,000 Dardanup Butchering Residents of Hene Hill:' Petition Co...... 17,000 MR. MOILER (Toodyay) [11.02 am.): J. L. Gardiner & Son .. 23.000 I have for presentation to the House a B. T. & M. F. Garstone 5,500 petition from the residents within Herne