Legislative Assembly

Tuesday, 7 June 2005

ESTIMATES COMMITTEES A & B ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A The meeting commenced at 9.00 am. Division 1: Parliament, $36 915 000 - Mrs D.J. Guise, Chairman. Mr F. Riebeling, Speaker of the Legislative Assembly. Mr P.J. McHugh, Clerk of the Legislative Assembly. Mr R. Bremner, Executive Manager, Parliamentary Services. Mr M.D. Crouche, Finance Manager, Parliamentary Services. The CHAIRMAN: This estimates committee will be reported by Hansard staff. The daily proof Hansard will be published at 9.00 am tomorrow. The estimates committee’s consideration of the estimates will be restricted to discussion of those items for which a vote of money is proposed in the consolidated fund. This is the prime focus of the committee. Although there is scope for members to examine many matters, questions need to be clearly related to a page number, item, program or amount within the volumes. For example, members are free to pursue performance indicators that are included in the Budget Statements while there remains a clear link between the questions and the estimates. It is the intention of the Chairman to ensure that as many questions as possible are asked and answered and that both questions and answers are short and to the point. The Speaker may agree to provide supplementary information to the committee, rather than asking that the question be put on notice for the next sitting week. For the purpose of following up the provision of this information, I ask the Speaker to clearly indicate to the committee which supplementary information he agrees to provide and I will then allocate a reference number. If supplementary information is to be provided, I seek the Speaker’s cooperation in ensuring that it is delivered to the committee clerk by 17 June 2005, so that members may read it before the report and third reading stages. If the supplementary information cannot be provided within that time, written advice is required of the day by which the information will be made available. Details in relation to supplementary information have been provided to both members and advisers and, accordingly, I ask the Speaker to cooperate with those requirements. I caution members that if the Speaker asks that a matter be put on notice, it is up to the member to lodge the question on notice with the clerk’s office. Only supplementary information that the Speaker agrees to provide will be sought by 17 June 2005. I inform members that there is a difference between asking for supplementary information and asking further questions. I will allow members to ask a small number of further questions if members have a particular line of questions they wish to pursue. The questions must be asked in the context of a further question rather than as supplementary information. I will also not have a long list of those seeking the call. The members who are present will ask a question in one round and then members must indicate to me that they wish to ask another question, and I will put their names on the list. Mr D.F. BARRON-SULLIVAN: In view of the recent publicity about the graffiti on Parliament House, and also in view of the recent transgressions, of which members are aware, I refer to page 53 of the Budget Statements under the heading “Joint House Committee”, which shows that nearly $1.7 million is allocated for the upgrade of security at Parliament House. The bulk of that amount seems to have been spent. Only about $120 000 of that amount was spent this year. Last year we were advised that the exterior of Parliament House would be monitored for 24 hours a day. Indeed, the primary purpose of that was to watch the whole of the exterior of Parliament House to deter graffiti tagging and the like. Those were the Speaker’s words, dare I say it. The clear intention was to make sure that all the Parliament House grounds were monitored to prevent this type of thing. What went wrong? The government spent $1.7 million on a security system. Why did it not pick up this graffiti tagging? It was not exactly a small amount of graffiti; it was huge. This might have implications for the overall security of Parliament House. What is the latest advice on the security upgrade? Why did it not prevent Parliament House from being graffitied the other day? Are the cameras watched for 24 hours a day? The SPEAKER: As I said last year, the security upgrade was designed to protect the building and the immediate surrounds. As members are aware, the wall that has been described by the press as the front wall of Parliament is actually the front wall of the fountains, which is on the other side of the parking area. That was not considered to be part of the building when the cameras were put in place. Those cameras are monitored for 24 hours a day. A security E2 [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] guard is situated in the building for 24 hours a day. The review that may now take place will determine whether to extend the coverage of the cameras to the front of the grounds or whether some other action can be taken to prevent this type of incident from happening again. The security was concentrated on the building, and that money has been spent. If this attack had taken place on the building, it would have been caught very quickly. Does that answer the member’s question? Mr D.F. BARRON-SULLIVAN: It indicates that what we were advised last year - that is, that the whole exterior of Parliament House was being watched - was ambivalent. The SPEAKER: No. The whole of the exterior of the building is monitored. Mr D.F. BARRON-SULLIVAN: My further question is: are the cameras watched for 24 hours a day? The SPEAKER: They are. They are monitored downstairs. A multiscreen set-up allows the entire perimeter, which is covered by camera surveillance, to be watched for 24 hours a day. Mr D.F. BARRON-SULLIVAN: Are the cameras monitored by the staff at Parliament House or the security contractors who work in Parliament House? What happens when they go on their rounds? The SPEAKER: The need for the security guards to wander around is being replaced with the cameras. I am advised that they conduct mobile patrols at night. A device in the cameras can detect movement and trigger an alarm so that the security personnel can go to where the problem is. Mr J.N. HYDE: I refer to accommodation, which is a perennial cost to Parliament and the executive government. The Leader of the Opposition has an open-door policy so that when stickybeaks like me walk past, they can see the changes that are being made to the building. I refer to the internal changes to offices within Parliament House. I am puzzled, because there seems to be a two-way mirror in the Leader of the Opposition’s office. When the Labor Party was in opposition, members could stroll into the Leader of the Opposition’s office to visit the Leader of the Opposition. There was no doorkeeper at that time. The door to the Leader of the Opposition’s office seems to have been moved. The member for Central Kimberley-Pilbara knows that he and I can stroll in to see our leader at any time. He does not vet or try to stop us from getting into his office. My query is about the changes that have been made in that office, particularly with a two-way mirror. I do not know whether it is a way for people to spy on who is coming into their office. I wonder how many other members of Parliament have a mirror so that they can vet who comes to see them. [9.10 am] The CHAIRMAN: I presume the member for Perth is referring to the works in progress item on page 53. It would be a good idea if the member linked his question to the budget. Mr J.N. HYDE: I am sorry; I am referring to the accommodation line item on page 53. The SPEAKER: The internal restructuring of the LOOP office was a program that was funded in the last budget. Consultation took place with the Leader of the Opposition, as it would with any Leader of the Opposition, about what those amendments within the office were to be. If they fell within the budget, we shifted walls or doors. Whatever the LOOP office requires, that is what happens. The same thing will occur in the Premier’s office. There is provision in the upcoming budget for a refurbishment of the Premier’s office. Double glazing is being put into that office, and into a number of other offices, to alleviate the noise from outside. The internal structure of the LOOP office has changed since the last government, before Labor was elected, was in office. That is at the discretion of the Leader of the Opposition. We try to adhere to his requests, as we do with all members’ requests. However, we do not have the financial capacity to alter the internal structure of each individual office. Mr J.N. HYDE: Has anybody else requested the installation of a two-way mirror so that a member can spy on his colleagues and vet who is coming into and going out of his office? The SPEAKER: The mirror may be used for security reasons. No other office in Parliament has that configuration, but that is not to say that it will not. Mr J.N. HYDE: Are there any other things like cones of silence? It all sounds a bit like Maxwell Smart. The SPEAKER: No, there are not. Mr J.N. HYDE: There is not a cone of silence. Okay. Mr D.F. BARRON-SULLIVAN: If I can clarify, my understanding is that last year in the estimates hearing the Speaker indicated clearly that there would be an upgrade of the Leader of the Opposition’s office. The SPEAKER: Yes. Mr D.F. BARRON-SULLIVAN: Clearly, the upgrade that is going ahead now is not as a result of the change of the Leader of the Opposition’s position or anything like that. The SPEAKER: No. Mr D.F. BARRON-SULLIVAN: I presume there is nothing wrong, in those circumstances, with the Leader of the Opposition, or, indeed, the Premier, if he wanted to do it, having a mirror situation like that so that he can man the [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E3 reception area on his own when a receptionist is not available. I imagine there would be nothing wrong with that at all, and I think that would put paid to any paranoid concerns of the member for Perth. The SPEAKER: What has happened since the last budget is that part of the upgrade has occurred. As part of the new extensions to Parliament, an extra office is now being allocated to the LOOP office. That requires further amendments to the structure of the place. Mr T.G. STEPHENS: Alterations to the Parliament become amendments, do they? The SPEAKER: Sorry; I do not quite get that. There is an extra office, and, as I understand it, either a door or a wall will be added or removed, depending on how the opposition wishes to utilise that resource. Mr J.N. HYDE: I do not think it is paranoia from the government. The CHAIRMAN: I do not think it is an opportunity for a debate, either. Mr J.E. McGRATH: I refer to the capital works program on page 53 of the Budget Statements. I notice there the Hansard digital audio transcription item. What progress has been made on that subject? Can I ask another question now related to that, or should I wait until the first question is answered? The CHAIRMAN: Let the first question be answered, and the member can seek to ask a further question after that. Mr J.E. McGRATH: Can we get an update on the Hansard digital audio transcription please? The SPEAKER: My understanding is that most of the actual technical equipment is in place. We are now in the process of linking the Hansard text with the vision. We are at that stage in that program. Mr J.E. McGRATH: My further question relates to the Internet coverage of proceedings of Parliament. It has been brought to my attention that the actual quality of the coverage is substandard; it keeps cutting out. People have reported to me that when they have been watching it, it suddenly goes still and the image is a bit blurred. Therefore, it is not a high-quality coverage. I wonder whether the Speaker is aware of that; and, if so, is there any way that that can be rectified? The SPEAKER: We are advised that the image that goes out of Parliament is of the quality required to transmit successfully on the Internet, and that most problems, when they are tracked down, are at the receival point of the message rather than at the exit point from Parliament. I am also told that if we enhance the picture quality any further, the ability of people at the other end to watch the proceedings is further reduced because of the amount of capacity that it takes off the computer. Mr D.F. BARRON-SULLIVAN: I refer to the Legislative Assembly section on page 49. The cost of services is shown in the financial statements. One of the items under the expenses is employee benefits expenses. I am intrigued about why this figure increased from about $11.7 million to $12.7 million during 2004-05. It was budgeted at $11.7 million and came in at $12.7 million. I notice that a little footnote indicates that the accounting arrangements changed between 2004-05 and 2005-06, but there is no indication that they will change in the financial year, as one would hope they would not. I wonder whether the Speaker can explain why there was an apparent $1 million blow-out in employee benefits expenses during this financial year. The SPEAKER: There is a new award, and the increase was about 3.4 per cent. In addition, that figure includes the salary increases for members of Parliament. That provides for the increase. Mr D.F. BARRON-SULLIVAN: Obviously, there is a determination by the Salaries and Allowances Tribunal each year. Is no provision made in the budget for even consumer price index-related increases in salaries? The SPEAKER: For members of Parliament? Mr D.F. BARRON-SULLIVAN: Yes, for members of Parliament and staff. The SPEAKER: We are obliged to pay whatever the tribunal determines to be appropriate. Therefore, we are guided by the tribunal rulings. Apparently, for the first time Treasury has allowed us to indicate this year what the increases are likely to be. Until this year, Treasury has not permitted that to be in our budget. Mr D.F. BARRON-SULLIVAN: That is extraordinary, because Treasury insists on that with other departments. Mr T.R. SPRIGG: My question refers to that footnote on page 49 about the Australian accounting standards being used for 2004-05 versus the international financial reporting standards being used for 2005-06, which makes it difficult to compare apples with apples. Can the reason that those figures vary be explained to a non-accountant, and also why the old accounting system figures could not be used, so that we can compare apples with apples? [9.20 am] The SPEAKER: In eight-odd years in opposition, it was very annoying that every year the budget papers changed, so I share the member’s frustration. I will refer the complexities of the question to our manager of financial services, Michel Crouche, who will explain the differences and the reasons for that.

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Mr M.D. Crouche: The impact on the Legislative Assembly is, in fact, very minor. The international financial reporting standards require the revaluation of assets. The assets of the Legislative Assembly are very small and are valued regularly in any case. Another aspect of the IFRS is that the employee entitlements need to be brought to account; for example, provision for long service leave, annual leave and so on. We already do that with the Legislative Assembly accounts. From our point of view, the variances have been very minor. There is no difference at all between the 2003-04 and 2004-05 accounts. That would be different for, say, a large government department in which there had been some major revaluations. Mr T.R. SPRIGG: To clarify, the suggestion is that, in this instance, the difference in accounting standards makes very little difference to these accounts. Mr M.D. Crouche: For the Legislative Assembly, that is correct. Mr J.N. HYDE: These are federal government changes that are impacting on all businesses as well this year. Mr M.D. Crouche: These accounting changes are not necessarily federal. Accounting bodies have introduced these changes to make all financial statements comparable. It is largely driven by the United States and United Kingdom bodies, and, yes, the state and federal governments within Australia have recommended their adoption for consistency and compliance. The SPEAKER: Plus the Western Australian Treasury has accepted them; hence we have them. Mr D.F. BARRON-SULLIVAN: I refer to page 45 of the Budget Statements. The cost of services in the financial statements table for the Legislative Council - The SPEAKER: We cannot answer questions about the Legislative Council. Mr D.F. BARRON-SULLIVAN: I refer to page 49 of the Budget Statements and to the same area that I spoke about earlier; that is, the cost of services in the financial statements table. In view of Mr Crouche’s comment that there is probably not much difference between the two reporting standards and the impact on these figures, I note that the estimated actual for employee benefits expenses is roughly $12.7 million for 2004-05 and $12.7 million for 2005-06. Does the Speaker know something about the Salaries and Allowances Tribunal determination that we do not know? Seriously, if the Salaries and Allowances Tribunal says that it will give a consumer price index increase or whatever, we could be looking at a bit of an increase in that area. I note that the number of full-time equivalents has remained the same. It looks to me as though it is a stationary situation without the provision for a CPI adjustment or whatever. The SPEAKER: Apparently, there was a funding error of $655 000 in last year’s budget, which has been corrected this year; hence the rather large variance. I do not know why that was not picked up last year. It related to prior years. We advised Treasury to correct this last year. Mr D.F. BARRON-SULLIVAN: I have an obvious further question. What was the error? What is $655 000 between friends? The SPEAKER: I will ask our financial services manager to answer that question. Mr D.F. BARRON-SULLIVAN: Is that called a flick pass? The SPEAKER: It is! Mr M.D. Crouche: I am happy to answer that question. The Legislative Assembly is funded on a one-line appropriation, which is at page 48. For 2004-05 the total budget figure is $14.1 million. That includes both operational activities of $3.5 million and special acts of $10.6 million. When we prepared a reconciliation at the end of last financial year, and although the total cost was within budget, the allocation between special acts and operational activities was incorrect. In fact, the funding for the operational activities was running down because those funds were being allocated against special acts. We have corrected that allocation error and ensured that special acts are funded from the special acts funds. That is why there is no difference between the 2004-05 and 2005-06 employee benefits figures on page 49. The $655 000 was a one-off figure in 2004-05. Effectively, in 2005-06 an anticipated increase of roughly $655 000 is already built in for special acts. Mr J.E. McGRATH: The proposed program to aircondition the two chambers is not mentioned in the budget papers. Is it possible that that will happen this year? The SPEAKER: Yes, it is something that we hope will occur. We have had correspondence with Treasury about the sale of a property at 34 Parliament Place. The proceeds of that sale will be used for the airconditioning. We are finalising that arrangement at the moment and if that is successful, which I expect it will be, we hope to aircondition this chamber in the long break this year. Mr J.E. McGRATH: What is the possible cost of airconditioning the chambers? The SPEAKER: It is about $1.4 million, and that will include the galleries. As a result of the passage of the one vote, one value legislation and the requirement for extra members in the Assembly, that figure may escalate somewhat to cover the cost of providing new seating in this chamber while the floor is dug up. The airconditioning will go under the [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E5 floor because of the nature of this building. Members will be aware that we are on top of a hill. If we rip up the boards, we will find sand under the floor. The airconditioning system will be built into the ground and hopefully it will be unobtrusive. Mr J.E. McGRATH: Given the fact that the number of members of Parliament might increase even more at some time, how much more seating will be put into the chamber in this instance? The SPEAKER: If we can get the configuration to work, we are trying to allocate seating for 61 members on the floor of the house, plus a non-allocated chair for the Speaker. It is easier to manage if there are a few spare seats. That does not indicate that we will increase it to 61 in the near future. Mr D.F. BARRON-SULLIVAN: I will raise the perennial question about the amount of control over various administrative and financial affairs of members of Parliament and their services in this establishment and the fact that a lot of the control rests with the Department of the Premier and Cabinet. This matter has been raised year after year. Last year the former member for Murray-Wellington, Mr Bradshaw, asked whether there were any plans to bring all these matters under the one umbrella, and the Speaker said that he prayed for that. Have those prayers been answered? At that time I recall that the Speaker indicated that letters were going backwards and forwards and so on. We are talking about such things as control of the imprest account and basic things like coordinating the provision of information technology services under the one roof, not to mention the financial control of members’ salaries and allowances. Has any progress been made to bring all those under the umbrella of the Parliament, where most members of Parliament would agree that they would most comfortably sit? [9.30 am] The CHAIRMAN: Before the Speaker responds, I am sure that the member for Leschenault is referring to a specific item in the Budget Statements, such as the item on the delivery of services. I ask him to provide a reference for the benefit of Hansard and other members. Mr D.F. BARRON-SULLIVAN: I refer to the mission statement on page 52. The SPEAKER: That was the section that I was thinking of. It is not quite right to say that letters were going backwards and forwards. Letters were going forwards, I suppose, but there was not too much coming back. In fact, nothing came back. I am sure that the new President shares the concerns of the previous President and that we will once again raise and pursue this issue with the Premier’s office until we get a result. The imprest account at least should come under the Parliament. The full allocation and responsibility for electorate offices should also fall under the Parliament. We have the staff but not the building as such. The computer systems at least need to be compatible with each other. We are a fair way from where I hope we will be by the time I leave this job. Mr D.F. BARRON-SULLIVAN: If push came to shove and the Parliament wanted to tell the Department of the Premier and Cabinet that this is the way things will be done, would that necessitate the passage of legislation by both houses? What other action could the Parliament take to compel this outcome? We should wage war on the Premier and his office if they do not comply with this matter at some stage. Mr J.N. HYDE: That was not your view when you were in government. Mr D.F. BARRON-SULLIVAN: The member would be surprised. The SPEAKER: I understand that both legislative and administrative changes would be required for that to occur. I do not think we will go to war with the Premier’s office just yet. Mr T.R. SPRIGG: I refer to the key efficiency indicators on the bottom of page 59 regarding allegations against public sector organisations. The CHAIRMAN: That is under division 2. At this stage we will deal with division 1. We will move on to that question at a later time. Mr D.F. BARRON-SULLIVAN: The regional sitting of Parliament in Albany was initially suggested, certainly in the public domain, by the opposition - I had to make that plug. I think all members of Parliament agree that it was a tremendous success in taking the democratic process to regional areas. As a country member, it was something that I had been keen to do for some time. I have a couple of questions. In the final wash-up, what was the cost of the regional Parliament? Obviously, we will talk about the Assembly sitting in Albany. Initially, the media touted a cost of $110 000. I think the Speaker said that it would come in at about $95 000. What was the cost, and does the budget provide for another regional sitting of the Assembly at some stage this financial year? The CHAIRMAN: Which page, member? Mr D.F. BARRON-SULLIVAN: I suppose it comes under the Joint House Committee on page 52 or the overall figure for the Legislative Assembly on page 48. It would most likely come under the appropriation and forward estimates on page 48. The SPEAKER: The regional Parliament was a significant success. I cannot remember that idea being raised by other people, but, if it was, I congratulate them for their foresight. It cost about $110 000, of which we were allocated

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$95 000, and the balance was made up by the Assembly. That figure does not include the cost of ministers’ officers going to Albany. They had their own expenses. Significantly more than $110 000 was spent in Albany over the few days we were down there, but $110 000 was expended by the Parliament. Mr D.F. BARRON-SULLIVAN: Is another regional parliamentary sitting planned for this financial year? The SPEAKER: I will write to the Premier in the hope of getting at least one regional Parliament each term. Mr D.F. BARRON-SULLIVAN: Each term. Has the Premier given any indication yet? The SPEAKER: I have not raised it directly with the Premier as yet. Mr D.F. BARRON-SULLIVAN: I presume that there is no allocation in the forward estimates for that. The SPEAKER: No, there is no allocation for that in the Budget Statements. Mr D.F. BARRON-SULLIVAN: Dare I be cynical, but that indicates to me that the government was prepared to do something before the last election but it seems to have gone shy of the idea since the election. The SPEAKER: Who knows? There might be another one just before the next election. Mr D.F. BARRON-SULLIVAN: Gosh; I would not bet against it. Mr J.N. HYDE: Surely there was the capacity for that in the budget last time. If it costs only $110 000, I am sure that there is the capacity for us to whip up to Broome or Derby in August. The SPEAKER: Unfortunately, we do not have a spare $110 000 in this budget to take Parliament away in the next financial year. I do not expect Parliament to travel in the next financial year, but I hope that there will be a possibility of that occurring in the following one. I hope that there will be a regional sitting in the second year of the Parliament. If and when Parliament travels, as happened previously, Treasury will make an allocation of $95 000 or whatever it is that the government contributes, separate from the budget. Mr D.F. BARRON-SULLIVAN: Is it the case that, at the moment, the forward estimates for the Legislative Assembly do not include provision for that from the government? The SPEAKER: That is right. Mr D.F. BARRON-SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I will ask a question relating to the Joint House Committee. I am not exactly sure which line item it is likely to come under. It may come under the line item for parliamentary administrative and support services on page 52, which has an allocation of $13.251 million. I presume that part of that amount includes the cost of raising, lowering, maintaining and providing the flags that are flown at the front of Parliament House. The SPEAKER: About $4 of that amount is allocated to it. Mr D.F. BARRON-SULLIVAN: Fair enough. Now I have my foot in the door! Is there a written policy on the flying of flags outside Parliament House? Today, for example, three flags are flying. Can the Speaker explain how it is determined which flags are flown? For example, the other day the indigenous flag was flying. I do not think it was NAIDOC Week or anything like that. Could the Speaker indicate what the policy is for the flying of the flags and whether it is a written policy? The SPEAKER: I do not know whether it is in writing. It was National Reconciliation Week last week, and the Torres Strait Islander flag was also flying. Usually, the Australian, the state and our parliamentary flag fly on three of the masts. We respond to special occasions with whatever is required by way of flags. Mr D.F. BARRON-SULLIVAN: Is the parliamentary flag an officially recognised flag? The SPEAKER: Absolutely. It is the one that was used to open the celebrations for the centenary of the building last year. Mr D.F. BARRON-SULLIVAN: I am wondering whether it comes under the Flags Act. The SPEAKER: It is copyrighted to the Parliament of Western Australia. One day, it will be recognised as a significant flag of the nation. Mr D.F. BARRON-SULLIVAN: Has it been proclaimed by the Governor General in accordance with the Flags Act? The SPEAKER: No. Mr D.F. BARRON-SULLIVAN: So it is not officially recognised? The SPEAKER: It is registered. [9.40 am] Mr D.F. BARRON-SULLIVAN: It looks nice. The SPEAKER: It is a very nice flag. [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E7

Mr J.N. HYDE: Did the federal government offer you a free flagpole? Mr D.F. BARRON-SULLIVAN: Only if the member for Perth would not attend. The SPEAKER: We had sufficient flagpoles of our own. Mr D.F. BARRON-SULLIVAN: On page 53, which relates to the Joint House Committee, the 2003-04 actual amount for the capital contribution is nearly $3.7 million. Has any consideration been given to making improvements to the catering facilities at Parliament House, in effect to open them up to the public? The SPEAKER: What do you mean by open them up to the public? Mr D.F. BARRON-SULLIVAN: To enable people to buy a cup of coffee or tea at Parliament House and so on. I am not suggesting that we go as far as putting a Dome coffee shop or a McDonald’s in Parliament House. I would not want that. Has any consideration been given to providing catering facilities for visitors; in other words, opening up the place a bit more to the public? The SPEAKER: Visitors normally come here at the invitation of members, and members are quite entitled to purchase coffee, meals and whatever for their guests. We do not intend that tourist buses turn up and the visitors be served coffee through the staff canteen, if that is what the member is referring to. There is money in the budget to upgrade some of the ageing facilities in the servery and kitchens. Mr J.N. HYDE: There are enough good cafes across the road, in my electorate. The SPEAKER: Some $35 000 is allocated for the replacement of equipment. Mr D.F. BARRON-SULLIVAN: While on the capital works budget, I again refer to page 53 and to the capital contribution needed to meet the equity needs in 2003-04 of approximately $3.7 million. From that amount is deducted draw downs from the holding accounts and internal funds and balances. Would the Speaker please explain those two accounting sources of finance for the capital works program and the implications for the finances of the Parliament? The SPEAKER: I will ask Mr Crouche to answer this question. Mr M.D. Crouche: If I heard the question correctly, with the holding account, we are effectively funded on an accrual basis; therefore, we are funded for depreciation each year. The amount from the holding account is effectively a draw- down that we are making on depreciation charges that had been made in prior years. Those have been agreed for 2005- 06 on the basis that we are either replacing or upgrading ageing assets. The internal funds and balances effectively refer to funds that were not spent in prior years, but are allocated towards capital works. Once again, the $564 000 in this year’s budget is basically a rollover of funds to meet commitments, which in 2005-06 are primarily associated with building maintenance and the digital audio transcription. The CHAIRMAN: I will put the question. For the benefit of those new members who have not participated in estimates before, it is agreed by a show of hands. The appropriation was recommended. Division 2: Parliamentary Commissioner for Administrative Investigations, $2 869 000 - Ms Guise, Chairman. Mr F. Riebeling, Speaker of the Legislative Assembly. Ms D.A. O’Donnell, Parliamentary Commissioner for Administrative Investigations. Dr H.L. Brown, Deputy Parliamentary Commissioner for Administrative Investigations. Mr T.R. SPRIGG: I refer to page 59 and to the key efficiency indicators of complaints against public sector organisations and note that the second-last line shows that there has been a 30 per cent increase in the average cost of allegations finalised. Where does that 30 per cent come from? I note the figure for 2005-06 has blown out a lot on the previously budgeted figure. The SPEAKER: As a result of the nature of the Ombudsman’s office, it is probably wise that the Ombudsman answer these questions. Ms D.A. O’Donnell: I thank the member for the question. It partly reflects the nature of the more complex investigations that are now being undertaken by my office. One example is investigations into public interest disclosures under the Public Interest Disclosure Act. It also reflects the fact that we are conducting more internal reviews of significant issues. My hope is that in the future I will be able to better separate the costs so that I can alert the Parliament to the percentage of my budget that is spent on complex investigations and the percentage that is spent on simple investigations. Another factor also has a bearing on it. I have observed that government agencies are doing a better job of handling the simpler complaints, so the ones that come to my office, as an office of last resort, tend to be the more intractable ones. Mr J.N. HYDE: I notice there was a press release last week that the Ombudsman’s agency and others concerned about behaviour, corruption and so on are getting together. I do not know if that is in a formal sense. Would the

E8 [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] commissioner indicate how much work is done in liaison with the other agencies? The real, continuing problem is that the public does not know which agency to go to. Is there a clear delineation to indicate when something goes to the Corruption and Crime Commission rather than to the commissioner’s or Ombudsman’s office? Ms D.A. O’Donnell: The initiative the member refers to is the integrity coordination group. That comprises me, the Ombudsman; the Auditor General; Commissioner Hammond of the Corruption and Crime Commission; and Maxine Murray as the Commissioner for Public Sector Standards. Our four agencies have combined, under the leadership of the public sector standards commissioner, to present an integrated approach to government sector agencies on what integrity means and to present some practical tools, ranging across our four areas of influence, to assist agencies to improve their integrity. I deal with matters of administrative process, and the public sector standards commissioner has her area of responsibility, etc. That will be a really important initiative to assist agencies. There will be a single reference point for matters of integrity, and our commitment is that the appropriate agency with the relevant jurisdiction will look after the matters under its jurisdiction. In relation to the member’s other question about the Corruption and Crime Commission, the matters that go to that commission are very clearly defined under its act. We also have a memorandum of understanding with the CCC, and that allows us to refer to it in the first instance, and as expeditiously as possible, matters that meet the threshold test of a matter of misconduct. The final point I make is that this year we have effected the successful co-location of a number of agencies. It has been a significant symbol for us, as accountability agencies, to provide one point of reference for members of the public, particularly people who walk in off the street. For members who do not know, the agencies that are co-located are my own, the Office of Health Review, the Commonwealth Ombudsman and the Office of the Commissioner for Public Sector Standards and the Office of the Information Commissioner. I also now have the new jurisdiction of gas industry Ombudsman and soon will be the electricity Ombudsman. The chances are that if people walk into level 12, 44 St Georges Terrace, one of us should be able to help them. We have a single reception and all those offices are available to members of the public. I hope that has led to significant efficiencies from the point of view of members of the public. The SPEAKER: I am happy for the members to direct their questions directly to the Ombudsman. Mr J.E. McGRATH: I refer to page 59. One of the outcomes and key effectiveness indicators is confidence that telecommunication interceptions are conducted in accordance with statutory provisions, which obviously we would all expect to happen. Given that phone taps have been in the news a bit of late, what is the level of telecommunication interceptions in Western Australia and what agency is using them? Is it just the Corruption and Crime Commission? [9.50 am] Ms D.A. O’Donnell: I am not able to answer that question. That is not an area in my jurisdiction. I am the inspector under the telecommunications interception legislation and I inspect named authorities. Those authorities are the Western Australia Police Service and the Corruption and Crime Commission. Previously we inspected the royal commission’s intercept records when it was in action. That is probably as far as I am able to go. We do have a regular program of inspecting the records to ensure that they comply with the legislation, but I am unable to speak as to the quantities. Mr J.E. McGRATH: Is the Ombudsman satisfied with the way in which phone taps are carried out by these departments? Ms D.A. O’Donnell: Yes, I am satisfied, and have been consistently, with the records I audit. I report to both the commonwealth and state governments on whether there have been any breaches in auditing records, and there has been none in the three years I have been undertaking that role. Mr J.E. McGRATH: I am not sure whether the Ombudsman can answer this final question. What rights do citizens have with regard to whether their telecommunications are intercepted? Ms D.A. O’Donnell: I am sorry, I am not able to answer that. Mr D.F. BARRON-SULLIVAN: It is indicated under “significant issues and trends” on page 57 that the office will receive around 1 600 allegations relating to public sector organisations. If I am not mistaken, in last year’s budget the estimated number was 1 800. Ms D.A. O’Donnell: Yes. Mr D.F. BARRON-SULLIVAN: Of those, what proportion end up being proved, either in total or in part, against the agency concerned? Ms D.A. O’Donnell: It is not always a good indicator so, if I may, I will step back. What we may find on the way through an investigation is that an agency may discover that its records are inaccurate or it has made an error. Before I conduct a formal investigation the agency may say, “We are sorry, but something has gone wrong; let’s fix it up.” Therefore I would not necessarily find it substantiated if I have not launched a formal investigation. On the whole, generically across ombudsmen Australia-wide, the percentage tends to be around two-thirds in favour of agencies and one-third in favour of complainants. Those statistics reflect large organisations that have well-established processes and [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E9 that on the whole are doing a reasonably good job. In Western Australia it is a little harder because we may come to a view at different stages of the investigation. However, my feeling is that it is roughly that sort of proportion. For example, I could compare that with a new industry, such as telecommunications, in which it is completely the reverse: there are poor practices, and lots of market activity, and very often the consumer suffers because the processes are at fault. In our office it is the exception that the processes are at fault. My experience is that invariably an agency will correct a deficiency once it is drawn to its attention. Mr D.F. BARRON-SULLIVAN: Is your office able to investigate every matter that is referred to it and is it able to do so to an appropriate standard? Ms D.A. O’Donnell: It is definitely not. The percentage of matters in which I exercise my discretion not to investigate is, again, roughly comparable to that of other ombudsmen. In my office it is about 61 per cent of matters that come to us. The commonwealth Ombudsman exercises a discretion in around 60 per cent of matters. The balance is always between matters of public interest or matters that have a systemic impact on agencies and matters that can be more appropriately dealt with by agencies themselves. Part of the balancing done by an ombudsman is in receiving and investigating individual complaints, but also ensuring that the resources of the office are targeted at where they can make the most impact. That is why we are very keen to ensure that agencies improve their own game and do a better job at complaint handling so that those matters do not come to us. Mr D.F. BARRON-SULLIVAN: Is it a mix of applying your discretion and determining whether a matter might impact on the public interest, or whether there may be some implications in the systemic impact of the situation? Is it a matter of balancing your discretion against the limited resources of the office or is it more a question of your finite resources? Ms D.A. O’Donnell: We have finite resources. I have put out an assessment check list and a fact sheet for members of the public to help them understand the way we make decisions. If a matter meets our threshold tests, we will investigate it. Because of our finite resources, it may take longer than it should, but if my assessment is that it is in the public interest to investigate, that will be done. Mr D.F. BARRON-SULLIVAN: Obviously, though, if the threshold were broadened, you would be able to examine far more cases than you can now. Ms D.A. O’Donnell: That is true. Again, that would not be consistent with the way ombudsmen nationally and internationally operate, in that they truly are an office of last resort for matters that just cannot be resolved within an agency. That is one reason, for example, that Western Australia is a national leader in the focus on agencies complying with the Australian standard on complaint handling. No other state in Australia yet has that onus on heads of agencies and chief executive officers to comply with the Australian standard. My belief is that it is leading to the provision of better services by agencies for members of the public. Mr J.N. HYDE: I am delighted that we now seem to have “Integrity WA” branded with nearly everybody together. Previously you reported to the Joint Standing Committee on Anti-Corruption Commission at the other end of the cycle of reporting on oversights. Under the new legislation, are you reporting to the CCC committee or have you been let loose? Ms D.A. O’Donnell: We have not been let loose in the sense that the ACC committee consulted with me from time to time. More often it is the Public Administration and Finance Committee and other committees that invite me, as they see the need, to address them. I do not report to any committee whatsoever; I report to all of Parliament. The SPEAKER: The report is actually to Parliament. Mr J.N. HYDE: In the real world that means reporting to the Speaker, so you have no reporting obligation to any minister? Ms D.A. O’Donnell: Not to any minister; to each house of Parliament. For example, when I table my annual report or a report on any major investigation that my office has undertaken, I table it before both houses of Parliament. That is my reporting arrangement. Mr D.F. BARRON-SULLIVAN: Does the Ombudsman put in a bid each year for the amount she wants in the budget allocation? Ms D.A. O’Donnell: Yes. Mr D.F. BARRON-SULLIVAN: Does the Ombudsman receive the amount she bids for? Has she received it this year? Ms D.A. O’Donnell: Essentially, yes. Mr D.F. BARRON-SULLIVAN: When the Ombudsman says essentially, does she mean that she has everything she requires? Ms D.A. O’Donnell: The member will see that some money was taken out for the functional review implementation team across all government agencies, including my own. I think it is important that we are consistent across the sector

E10 [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] with those sorts of initiatives. So, yes, essentially I have received what I requested. I got some additional funding at the end of last year when the Commissioner for Public Sector Standards and I put in a request for funding for better communications to improve our web sites and our accessibility. Also we have put in a request for what we have called the systemic investigation team - a virtual team, if we like - for both of us to have two extra full-time equivalents so that we will have the flexibility, if the need arises, to undertake a major systemic investigation under either jurisdiction. Mr D.F. BARRON-SULLIVAN: Has that been approved in this year’s budget? Ms D.A. O’Donnell: Yes. Mr D.F. BARRON-SULLIVAN: Yet the appropriation is down on last year’s budget, even taking into account the capital contribution the Ombudsman referred to. Ms D.A. O’Donnell: The reason for that is that the Police Service, which formerly came under my jurisdiction, has now been completely transferred across to the CCC. There was some money left for any police staff who might not have found jobs but that has all been sorted out now. [10.00 am] Mrs J. HUGHES: The second major initiative for 2005-06 on page 60 of the Budget Statements refers to the plans to hold the annual Australasian and Pacific Ombudsman Conference in April 2006. How many delegates will attend the conference, and what benefits will it provide to Western Australia? Ms D.A. O’Donnell: I am hoping that between 40 and 50 delegates will attend. This conference is held annually by ombudsmen in the Australasian and Pacific region. This year the conference was held in Wellington and was attended by 70 delegates from all around the world. Next year I expect about 40 or 50 delegates to attend. They will be primarily from the southern hemisphere, although some will be from the northern hemisphere. The theme of the conference is integrity, transparency and accountability. I will highlight two matters. The first is the integrity coordinating group, to which I referred earlier. Western Australia is one of the few places in the world that has a combined approach by accountability agencies, and that is one of the innovations for which we are recognised. The second matter I will highlight is the focus of government sector agencies on better complaints handling. Again, Western Australia is leading the field in that area. They are the two themes I hope will reflect well on Western Australia and inspire some of the smaller island nations in the Pacific in particular. It is because they have small ombudsman’s offices that they are looking to us to assist them to build the capacity of their own governance models. The appropriation was recommended. Division 45: Community Development - Services 1, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9 - Mr A.P. O’Gorman, Chairman. Ms S.M. McHale, Minister for Community Development. Ms C.J. Brazier, Director General. Ms P.M. Bagdonavicius, Executive Director, Program and Sector Development. Mr G. Yell, Director, Financial Services. Ms M. Osman, Executive Director, Office for Women’s Policy. Mr M.F. Intini, Executive Director, Business Services. Ms W.M. Dawson, Executive Director, Indigenous Policy Directorate. Mr M. Glasson, Acting Executive Director, Family and Domestic Violence Unit. Mr L. McCulloch, Executive Director, Community Development and Statewide Services. The CHAIRMAN: This estimates committee will be reported by Hansard staff. The daily proof Hansard will be published at 9.00 am tomorrow. The estimates committee’s consideration of the estimates will be restricted to discussion of those items for which a vote of money is proposed in the consolidated fund. This is the prime focus of the committee. While there is scope for members to examine many matters, questions need to be clearly related to a page number, item, program or amount within the volumes. For example, members are free to pursue performance indicators that are included in the Budget Statements while there remains a clear link between the questions and the estimates. It is the intention of the Chairperson to ensure that as many questions as possible are asked and answered and that both questions and answers are short and to the point. The minister may agree to provide supplementary information to the committee, rather than ask that the question be put on notice for the next sitting week. For the purpose of following up the provision of this information, I ask the minister to clearly indicate to the committee which supplementary information she agrees to provide and I will then allocate a reference number. If supplementary information is to be provided, I seek the minister’s cooperation in ensuring that it is delivered to the committee clerk by 17 June 2005, so that members may read it before the report and third reading [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E11 stages. If the supplementary information cannot be provided within that time, written advice is required of the day by which the information will be made available. Details in relation to supplementary information have been provided to both members and advisers and, accordingly, I ask the minister to cooperate with those requirements. I caution members that if a minister asks that a matter be put on notice, it is up to the member to lodge the question on notice with the clerk’s office. Only supplementary information that the minister agrees to provide will be sought by 17 June 2005. Ms S.M. McHALE: I will clarify for members that sections two, three and five of this division will not be dealt with during this session. They will be dealt with by the ministers responsible for those sections; that is, the ministers responsible for seniors, youth and volunteers. I understand that the Chairman may have to say something when he puts the vote at the end of this division. The CHAIRMAN: Sections two, three and five will not be dealt with during this division. Ms S.E. WALKER: The fifth dot point on page 776 of the Budget Statements, under “Major Initiatives For 2005-06”, refers to the Children and Community Services Act 2004. Has that bill been proclaimed? Ms S.M. McHALE: No. It has been passed by Parliament, of course, and it will be proclaimed. The section that deals with offences relating to parents who leave children unsupervised in vehicles has been proclaimed. The proclamation of the rest of the act is dependent upon the repeal of other legislation and also the implementation and development of new regulations and training. It is my intention that the act will be proclaimed in its entirety by March 2006 at the latest. Intensive work is now progressing on the development of the regulations for child care, the training of staff and the development of the administrative work that has to be done when such a major shift occurs in the way that the department manages children in care. Ms S.E. WALKER: Is that different legislation from the Family and Children’s Development Bill that was introduced with the new provisions that relate to care and protection? Ms S.M. McHALE: No, it is the Children and Community Services Act. Ms S.E. WALKER: In his most recent annual review of Western Australian courts, the Chief Justice indicates that there was a 24 per cent increase in the number of applications to have a child declared in need of care and protection in 2003-04. Will the minister explain that? I refer to the act that is now on hold and is mentioned in the fifth dot point on page 776. If there was a 24 per cent increase last year, why has that act not come into force to assist the court? [10.10 am] Ms S.M. McHALE: The department and the courts are still operating under the Child Welfare Act, which provides the current legal framework for bringing children into care. Therefore, the capacity for bringing children into care is still there, albeit in a very restricted way. The reality is that the Children and Community Services Act is such a significant reform of the framework for bringing children into care that it requires new handbooks, training of staff and a very significant investment in getting staff prepared for the shift to the new legislation. I believe those figures demonstrate a number of things; that is, the increase in children coming into care, the complexity of family arrangements, and issues such as alcohol and drug use and domestic violence. It might also show that we have additional staff in the department, and it could, in part, be a reflection of an increased number of staff. I am informed that there has been a 10 to 15 per cent increase in the number of applications for care and protection orders. We anticipate a similar, if not higher, rate in 2004-05, and that is a national trend. Mr J.N. HYDE: Page 769 of the budget papers indicates that the department received what looks to me to be a significant increase in its total appropriations provided to deliver services in 2005-06. Will the minister indicate specifically some of the programs that are included in that increase? Ms S.M. McHALE: The member for Perth is absolutely right. We have endeavoured to focus on increasing the budget of this department, in particular to look at the working with children legislation. There are additional funds for the office of the Commissioner for Children and Young People. Perhaps most importantly as far as I am concerned is the significant increase of about $2.4 million for a new range of services for children coming into care and children who need protection. This is particularly to deal with a relatively small but very demanding group of children who are difficult to manage. Therefore, we are investing, as I said, $2.4 million in a range of new and expanded services. That also includes expanding counselling services for children in care and additional funding to strengthen and improve the processes around foster care recruitment services. Of course, there is the continuation of the 2001 election commitments. Finally and thankfully, particularly for members in the country, there are additional funds for the Helping Young People Engage program in the Kimberley, and there is also the third instalment of the increases in foster care subsidies. Quite a broad range of services are receiving increases. Of course, there is also the advocate for children in care. Mr D.A. TEMPLEMAN: I refer to the first major achievement on page 785 of the creation of an additional 50 positions and appointed staff to work with children. Will the minister indicate where those new 50 staff have been located? I am particularly interested in my region.

E12 [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005]

Ms S.M. McHALE: Right. Hopefully, I will be able to satisfy the member’s intensive lobbying for his area. These are the 50 positions from the 2004-05 budget. That increase in the budget was in recognition of the need to get more resources for the Department for Community Development. Those people have all been appointed. A number of them are in the city; namely, Armadale, Cannington, Fremantle, Joondalup, Midland, Mirrabooka, Perth and Rockingham. That accounts for 27, I think. There is also the Kimberley. There are two in Mandurah, four in the Murchison, one in the Pilbara, five in the south west and two in the wheatbelt. We put 6.5 full-time equivalents into the crisis care unit to deal with the increased demands on that service, and 2.5 FTEs into foster care recruitment. For the benefit of the member for Perth, there are three in the Perth office. Mr J.N. HYDE: How many are in Mirrabooka? Ms S.M. McHALE: In Armadale there were three; Cannington, two; Fremantle, two; Joondalup, two; Midland, three; and in Mirrabooka there were eight. The demand from the Mirrabooka area is quite significant. There were three in Perth and three in Rockingham. That was quite a significant increase in staffing. Mr D.A. TEMPLEMAN: I have a supplementary question. Is that in addition to the other positions? I understand there were positions for child protection workers and Aboriginal support workers. That is not inclusive of them? Ms S.M. McHALE: No, they were in addition to those. Broadly, following the Gordon inquiry, we secured 51 new positions. In the 2004-05 budget we secured 50. In this year’s budget there are 14 positions for family engagement workers, and there are about 14 new positions in the 2005-06 budget. Ms S.E. WALKER: I go back to the fifth dot point on page 776, and I refer to the Children and Community Services Act. In the Chief Justice’s “2003 Annual Review of Western Australian Courts”, the Children and Community Services Bill, as it then was, was mentioned. I mentioned it last year regarding the number of care and protection applications filed. The Chief Justice said that the initiatives would require an additional 1.8 magistrates in the Perth Children’s Court for the first year of operation, increasing to two magistrates in year four. Given that in this year’s annual review the Chief Justice reports that there has been a 24 per cent increase in care and protection applications, and given that the minister’s advisers have just told the minister that it is 10 to 15 per cent, I would like the minister to explain that discrepancy. I would also like the minister to explain why there was a 24 per cent increase in the number of applications for 2003-04 when there was only a seven per cent increase in the previous year. As a result of this increase, have additional magistrates been put on in the Children’s Court to cope with that demand? There are three things. Ms S.M. McHALE: Perhaps I will answer the last question first. I would need to refer that to the Minister for Justice. Without notice, I do not know what are the staffing arrangements at the Magistrates Court and the Children’s Court. However, I am happy to - Ms S.E. WALKER: Is the minister not concerned to know that the care and protection applications are being processed? Ms S.M. McHALE: I fund the Department for Community Development to ensure that we protect children to the best of our ability. It has not been raised with me that the increase in children going into care is causing a bottleneck in the Children’s Court. Ms S.E. WALKER: I raised it with the minister last year. Ms S.M. McHALE: That has not been raised. I think we would know about it if a significant delay were seen in the throughput of the Children’s Court, which would be disadvantageous to the children. The member has asked about the discrepancy. I am briefed that there were 306 applications in 2003-04. [10.20 am] Ms S.E. WALKER: The minister has just said 320. Ms S.M. McHALE: Again, I cannot account for the Chief Justice’s figures in the annual report. If the member wishes, I am happy to seek some clarification on the difference between 306 and 320. The CHAIRMAN (Mr A.P. O’Gorman): The minister has indicated that she will provide supplementary information. I ask her to clearly detail what she will provide. Ms S.M. McHALE: The member for Nedlands has asked for clarification on the discrepancy between the Chief Justice’s figures and the figures that I have provided. I will seek some explanation for the difference in those two figures. [Supplementary Information No A1.] Ms S.E. WALKER: Why has there been such a significant increase in the number of applications to have a child declared in need of care and protection from a seven per cent increase in 2002-03 to a 24 per cent in 2003-04. I am mindful that the minister’s reasons are alcohol and drug use and domestic violence. However, those issues have been around for a long time in Perth. Why has there been such a dramatic increase? [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E13

Ms S.M. McHALE: There could be a number of reasons that that is the case. As a result of the Gordon inquiry, we received additional staff. That has meant that workers are reaching remote communities that were not supported or serviced in the past. I think there is a greater awareness. It may well be put in terms of risk associated with working with children. There is a greater number of staff, a greater awareness of child abuse and an increase, not a decrease, in alcohol and drug use. The reasons that children are coming into care or the circumstances of children in care are getting greater. There is a range of reasons that that is the case. It is not peculiar to Western Australia; it is a national phenomenon. Ms S.E. WALKER: That still does not explain it to me. The increase in the number of staff occurred as a result of the 2004-05 budget, and the Chief Justice has referred to an increase in 2003-04, so the staff would not have been there then. People use the phrase “national phenomenon” in relation to prisoner numbers. Can the minister pinpoint, or has the department pinpointed, why there has been a 24 per cent increase in the number of applications? Ms S.M. McHALE: The Gordon staff came on board in 2003-04. Then we had the additional staff in 2004-05. The first tranche of staffing increases was after the 2003-04 budget. Ms S.E. WALKER: In relation to the increase in applications in the Perth Children’s Court and the requirement for at least two more magistrates, to which the Chief Justice has referred, I find it astonishing that, considering the government’s talk about the departments working collaboratively, the minister has not made any inquiries to see whether those two positions have been filled. I recognise that it is an issue that will come under the Attorney General’s portfolio, but the minister should know that those care and protection applications are being processed. Ms S.M. McHALE: I can only repeat my previous answer: it has not been raised with me that there is a bottleneck in the processing of applications to bring children into care. That is not something the department has observed. If it were, it would have been brought to my attention, and it would need to be dealt with. I do not know, without notice, whether the number of magistrates in the Children’s Court has increased. Ms S.E. WALKER: Can I ask that that information be provided by way of supplementary information? Ms S.M. McHALE: It does not relate to my portfolio. The CHAIRMAN: It does not relate to this portfolio. The member can ask that question when the Attorney General is being questioned. Mrs J. HUGHES: I note on page 771 the forward estimates for abuse in care and the immediate response, which impact on the department’s income statements. It shows a figure of $2.408 million each year for four years. Will the minister explain what will be provided from this funding and what the government is doing to prevent children in care being abused? Ms S.M. McHALE: This has been one of the most important areas of work that our government has focused on over the past two or three years, and certainly in our first term. The rates of abuse in care are unacceptable. I point out, however, that there is a range of definitions of abuse. This area has been examined for quite a few years, and we have a very rigorous definition of what constitutes abuse in care and what is recorded. When I got my head around the Bennett principle, the first thing I did was to establish a duty of care unit in the department to examine what was happening to children in care and whether they were receiving their legal rights. I can report to the estimates committee that virtually all that cohort of children, which was about 253 cases, have now been assessed and referred for independent legal advice. I think from memory about 190 children either have or are in the process of being referred for independent legal advice; that is, to see whether they have a case to sue the department. Last year I also commissioned an independent inquiry into the protective measures, or lack of protective measures, in the department to ensure that children who came into care were not further abused. The primary finding of that inquiry was that the problem was not departmental practices and procedures but the lack of appropriate placements for some very difficult children in care. To put it in practical terms, in a high number of cases of abuse in care, the abuse is perpetrated by another child in care. We all think of abuse in care as a male or female adult abusing a child sexually. Some cases of abuse in care are of that nature, but a disproportionately high number of children are abusing other children. We need to get at those children and provide more appropriate care for them. Consequently, we have new funding to establish different types of care and to support those carers who work with incredibly hard to place and incredibly damaged children who, in turn, are doing damage to other children. [10.30 am] Mrs J. HUGHES: I refer to the increased number of children in care and the significant trend identified on page 770. What is the government doing to ensure that children and young people with a high level of needs are provided with appropriate care? New options are referred to on page 786. I ask the minister to provide me with some information on what those new options will do. Ms S.M. McHALE: The department will establish professional home-based care for this group of children who require intensive individual support. Care will be provided in the homes of salaried carers who have particular specialist skills and competencies to work with children who have very complex needs and in whom very severe emotional and

E14 [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] behavioural disturbances basically manifest. They are very difficult children. Those workers also need support, so the department will also provide an intensive placement support team to work with the carers, teachers and family members of these children, and indeed other community members who support these very difficult children. Another finding from the independent inquiry was that the department did not have adequate counselling services for children who are in care or who have been abused in care, so additional funds have been provided to employ additional psychologists in this financial year. That will take pressure off the existing psychologists, but more importantly will provide significant additional counselling services for children who are abused in care and, indeed, who are in care. That is a really significant shift forward. Ms K. HODSON-THOMAS: I refer to the major achievements for 2004-05 on page 785. The minister has already spoken about the 50 additional positions provided in 2004-05 and the increase that will occur in this financial year. Could the minister advise how many full-time employees of the Department for Community Development are assigned to the Onslow area? The minister may not be able to provide this information today, but I ask also for the case load numbers for the department in the Onslow area. Ms S.M. McHALE: I am informed that we have four full-time workers and one part-time worker in that area. I am happy to provide the case load ratio by way of supplementary information. We do not have that information with us. For the record, I shall provide by way of supplementary information the average case load for staff in Onslow. [Supplementary Information No A2.] Ms K. HODSON-THOMAS: Are there non-government community service providers in the Onslow area as well? Ms S.M. McHALE: Yes, but I cannot provide a list of them. Ms K. HODSON-THOMAS: Could the minister provide that by way of the supplementary information that she has already agreed to provide? Ms S.M. McHALE: I am happy to provide a list of the non-government service providers that are funded by DCD. Mr D.A. TEMPLEMAN: I refer to the first dot point on page 786 on the finalisation of the foster carer charter, foster carer handbook and statement of commitment. What is hoped to be achieved by those initiatives? Ms S.M. McHALE: I thank the member for Mandurah. The department has been working with foster carers, particularly through the Foster Care Association of Western Australia. I pay tribute to Fay Alford, President of the Foster Care Association. One of the constant messages that came out was a sense that foster carers were not valued or listened to. Part of the philosophy of the new act was to ensure that foster carers were seen as a legitimate and interested party in the management of children in care. The Foster Care Association also wanted a statement to be developed; hence the foster carer charter. The statement really sets out the obligations of the department to foster carers and their rights, and enshrines the principles of respect and partnership. It was really about lifting the value that the department and the state place in foster carers, and about demonstrating that value. It provides the acknowledgment that foster carers are volunteers who take on a very difficult role; they open their homes and their families to these children. The charter was really about enhancing the recognition of foster carers as partners in the care of children and young people. The handbook is a very practical work. It clarifies the respective roles and responsibilities of foster carers and the department. It basically provides information on carers’ rights, entitlements and responsibilities. It is really a way of affirming the commitment of the department to foster carers and of providing information to help foster carers do their job better with the support of the department. Ms S.E. WALKER: I again refer to the fifth dot point on page 776. The figures provided by the Children’s Court for care and protection applications were 242 in 2001-02, 258 in 2002-03 and 320 in 2003-04. On those figures, it appears that there has been a nearly 50 per cent increase in the number of applications between 2001-02 and 2003-04, from 242 to 320. I refer to the initiatives for 2005, the proclamation of the act, the nearly 50 per cent increase in applications over that two-year period, and the statement of the Chief Justice on page 39 of the “2003 Annual Review of Western Australian Courts” that the Children’s Court collaborates with representatives from the Department for Community Development. Neither the minister nor her adviser seemed to have any knowledge of that. Does the Department for Community Development collaborate with representatives of the Children’s Court on the workload that is required to process these applications? Ms S.M. McHALE: Yes. Ms S.E. WALKER: It does? Ms S.M. McHALE: Yes. They have a very close relationship. They work very well together. As I said earlier, the member seems to want to progress this argument when I do not think there is one to be had. Notwithstanding the increased number of children coming before the Children’s Court, we are not seeing a delay in the applications or in the process of hearing the applications for children coming into care. If that were occurring, we would not necessarily see an increased rate of children coming into care. There has been an increased rate of applications and an increased rate of children coming into care. I am briefed that the department has a worker attached to the Children’s Court, and that there are regular meetings with the President of the Children’s Court. [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E15

[10.40 am] Ms S.E. WALKER: The minister was bewildered when I asked her about this. It seems to me that the minister should be concerned to make sure the applications are processed. Can I ask a supplementary question? What is the timeframe to conduct an analysis of the past three years and to process a care and protection application, from the time it is filed to the time it is dealt with? Ms S.M. McHALE: I would answer the question if I could, but the member gives me a very short timeframe to answer a supplementary question. I do not know, at this stage, whether we could provide that information in the time that is required. Ms S.E. WALKER: Why not? Ms S.M. McHALE: It varies. Ms S.E. WALKER: How long does it take? Ms S.M. McHALE: It might help if I ask Mr McCulloch to add to what I said. He might be able to satisfy the member for Nedlands. Mr L. McCulloch: Some of the applications do get adjourned. It depends on the progress of the case, as the member probably understands. Sometimes we negotiate with the parents and we will adjourn the case for a number of months. The length of time the hearings are taking has not been a concern for us. Normally we are part of the key process with the court on negotiating the progress of the applications. Ms S.M. McHALE: For instance, we might defer the application because we want to do more work with the family. That might show up as extending the length of time it takes to process, but that is not a bad thing. I am expressing caution on two counts: first, how quickly it would take to get the information and, second, the usefulness of the information, because members need to understand the details of the cases that come before the Children’s Court. It is not a matter of in comes the application and out goes the child. A lot of work can be done. I question the use of that data. Ms S.E. WALKER: It is no different from the Criminal Court - the variety of circumstances and trial. I am trying to establish whether the increase of nearly 100 cases of care and protection applications filed has affected the workload of the Children’s Court. It must have. I am asking the minister because she said that she has a very close relationship with the court and I thought it would be of concern to her if those applications were not being processed. I am asking the minister to provide me with the information that I will find useful. Ms S.M. McHALE: The only person who is making an assumption is the member for Nedlands. Ms S.E. WALKER: I am trying to find the facts. Ms S.M. McHALE: We work closely with the Children’s Court. It is not an issue that has been raised through the staff of the Department for Community Development, hence it is not delaying the application of children coming into care. I repeat that if the member is concerned about it, then it is a question that is appropriately directed to the Attorney General. The CHAIRMAN: It is quite clear that the minister does not have the information and the Attorney General is the minister responsible and he should have that information. Therefore, the question should be properly addressed to him. Mr J.N. HYDE: On page 774 it is estimated that 0.57 per cent of children in care were abused in care by foster carers or workers in placement services. What exactly is the Gallop government doing to protect children in care? Ms S.M. McHALE: I thank the member for Perth for the question. One of the first things our government did was to look at the management and movement of foster carers from government through non-government agencies and to develop a central register of all foster carers registered with the department and non-government agencies. There had not been a comprehensive register of statewide carers prior to that point in time. I thought it was a worrying gap in the services. For instance, if a carer had been sacked from a non-government sector for inappropriate behaviour we were not necessarily picking that up. I said that that had to stop and that we needed a very comprehensive register of statewide carers. The full register started earlier this year. It is a very good procedure to have in place. Also, we have introduced compulsory preparatory training for general foster carers and we are now doing that for relative carers. One of the other findings of the inquiry undertaken last year was a disproportionate number of cases of abuse of children in relative care. Whilst we support relative carers and the idea of children staying with family members, we do not support that if it is putting children in a situation of potential harm. We have compulsory training and have done an audit to identify all carers across the state who have not undertaken the training offered. Those who had not been trained were to be trained, and that was to have been finished by May 2005. We have audited all foster carers to make sure that they have now had the preliminary training. Relative carers will be assessed by a much more rigorous process. That includes new definitions of relative care. We found that children were being placed with people who were defined as relatives but, in fact, were not. That had to stop. There was a greater requirement for police and reference checks and for guidelines for the assessment of carers and the review of general carers. Staff in the department have begun

E16 [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] training on the new assessment. Also, we extended the function of central foster care recruitment service statewide. In the past, country assessments had been done by local officers and that meant there was no consistency. It is now being done by the central foster care recruitment service. The CHAIRMAN: Members, for your information, I have the members for Serpentine-Jarrahdale, Perth, Carine and Nedlands as the next members to ask questions. Mr A.J. SIMPSON: I refer to the impact statement on page 792 of the Budget Statements and ask why the total estimated expenditure is $230 123 000 when the budgeted figure was approximately $218 million? What is the reason for the expenditure increase? Ms S.M. McHALE: The total cost of services has increased by $11 million because of a number of adjustments from the day the budget was constructed in 2004. There is a carryover from 2003-04. Also, there is a wage increase and funding for working with children - criminal record checking. [10.50 am] Mr A.J. SIMPSON: Can the minister explain the figure of $282 000 listed under other expenses on page 792? Ms S.M. McHALE: We do not have that level of detail. I will provide by way of supplementary information what constitutes other expenses of $282 000 in 2004-05. [Supplementary Information No A3.] The CHAIRMAN (Mr A.P. O’Gorman): Before I give the next member the call, there has been a request for a comfort break. I advise that there is a time limit on this division and the time is not added at the end. We will take a break for 15 minutes from 11.00 to 11.15 am. Mr J.N. HYDE: On page 786 it is stated that the department will be developing new options for children in care. Does this carry with it any new funding to protect children in care? Ms S.M. McHALE: I have touched on this a bit. Yes, it does, and $2.4 million will be allocated each year for the next four years to focus on intensive support for children who need individual care. Approximately seven additional psychologists will be provided for counselling services and psychological intervention for children and young people in care. We will also establish the position of advocate for children in care as part of the funding in the 2005-06 budget. An amount of approximately $2.4 million has been allocated for developing new options for children in care. Mr J.N. HYDE: In a number of medical areas, such as psychiatry, there is a skills shortage. Is there a shortage of psychologists, or are we meeting that demand easily? Ms S.M. McHALE: I will seek some guidance on that, but my gut reaction is that there is generally a shortage for positions like social workers, and I think clinical psychologists as well, but I am optimistic and will keep my fingers crossed that the charisma of working for the Department for Community Development will attract many people to work for the department. Ms K. HODSON-THOMAS: One of the major achievements outlined on page 785 is 50 additional positions in 2004- 05. My question relates to a situation in Onslow referred to by the Minister for Justice. The case was referred to in The West Australian on 4 June and relates to a 15-year-old indigenous boy from the Onslow area who was taken into custody. My concern is that one of the government’s ministers said that he believed the Department for Community Development had not been involved in this case and an explanation was required. Is the department aware of the family’s situation and the mother’s situation? I seek some clarification in relation to that matter. Ms S.M. McHALE: Perhaps I could paint a picture of me sitting at home reading that article in The Australian on Saturday morning - Ms S.E. WALKER: The minister did not freeze like Mr McGinty did when he was reading the paper, did she? Ms S.M. McHALE: If the member put herself in my position, she could probably understand my initial reaction when I read a statement by a minister about another minister’s department. I did, of course, ring the Minister for Justice to ask what he had actually said, because on the face of it he was publicly criticising my department and I was - Ms K. HODSON-THOMAS: Indeed. Ms S.M. McHALE: Very indeed. He said that he had not made any reference to my department. He said he was talking about his own department. Therefore, I have asked that the press secretaries attempt to correct that, because it was a slight on the department. The department had in fact been aware of the family, but the point is that the Department for Community Development was not the department that the minister was talking about; he was talking about his own department. I was pleased to hear that, because otherwise I would have been most concerned, as he was also concerned that he had been quoted as criticising another department. Ms K. HODSON-THOMAS: Further to that, is the department involved with the family? Ms S.M. McHALE: Let me be clear. When the minister referred to the Department for Community Development he was in fact not talking about the Department for Community Development; he was talking about his own department - [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E17 community corrections - or that part of it. I have been briefed that the department has been involved with this boy’s family in relation to financial assistance and to another family member, but not in relation to this boy in recent times. Ms S.E. WALKER: The fifth dot point on page 776 refers to the Children and Community Services Act 2004. The Chief Justice said he expects the workload to increase substantially once the new bill is enacted. He was referring to the care and protection applications that came to the court in 2003-04. He said he was most concerned at the number of parents and other family members responding to applications to have children declared in need of care and protection who were not legally represented. He said that as a result trials would be longer and more distressing for all concerned, and that legal representation would minimise the number of trials. The minister says there is a close relationship between the Children’s Court and the department. What are the minister’s views on this? Is there any funding to provide legal representation for parents whose children are the subject of those applications? Ms S.M. McHALE: Parents seeking legal representation need to go to Legal Aid Western Australia. We have not provided funding in our budget to manage parents’ legal representation. That matter was discussed during the development of the legislation. I think the member will recall that, because she played a significant part when the bill was debated. Legal representation for children was also discussed. We have not provided funding for parents, but they can apply to Legal Aid and do get legal aid. Ms S.E. WALKER: Is the minister concerned when the Chief Justice says that the trials will be longer and are distressing for all concerned? Is the minister concerned that parents are attending trials with no legal representation? That is what I am really asking. Ms S.M. McHALE: I share the member’s concern about the legal processes involved in applications for taking children into care. Of its very nature it is a very emotional and difficult environment for all concerned. We did not enshrine the individual right in the legislation, but we used the word “may”, not “must”, when referring to legal representation for children. We were particularly concerned to ensure that children are represented when it is considered necessary that they have independent legal representation. It is a very emotional and difficult process for parents faced with losing a child, notwithstanding the circumstances in which the parents might find themselves. Every effort should be made to provide all the people concerned with legal representation. I am informed that the subject of additional funds for the Department of Justice to provide legal representation to parents is still an ongoing point of discussion. It was not funded in the 2004-05 or 2005-06 budgets; however, it is a matter that we need to monitor. The member is correct: it is anticipated that when the Children and Community Services Act is proclaimed next year, the demand on the court system will increase. That is the subject of ongoing budget discussions. The act will be proclaimed early in 2005-06; therefore, I do not anticipate any effect this financial year. However, it will be a matter for consideration in the 2006-07 budget when the act is fully proclaimed and operational. I believe there will be an increase in the work of the court, as more cases will go before the court, and it will be incumbent on the Minister for Justice and me to look at that matter. However, we have identified it as a pressure point for 2006-07. The CHAIRMAN: Members have requested a break at 11 o’clock and the committee has agreed to that. The first question after the break is a further question from the member for Nedlands. Meeting suspended from 11.02 to 11.19 am [Mrs D.J. Guise took the chair.] The CHAIRMAN: We will continue from where we left off and deal first with a further question from the member for Nedlands, and the minister has some information she wants to share. Ms S.M. McHALE: Yes, please. Ms S.E. WALKER: Dealing with the same dot point on page 776, how many children were taken into care and protection as a result of the 320 care and protection applications filed in the Perth Children’s Court between July 2003 and June 2004? Ms S.M. McHALE: I can provide that information by way of supplementary information; I do not have it with me. I will give a status report on the 320 applications before the Children’s Court in 2003-04, including how many children were taken into care. [Supplementary Information No A4.] Ms S.E. WALKER: Could I have the information for the three financial years that we have discussed - 2001-02, 2002- 03 and 2003-04 - because that is the way the court records them? All I want to know is how many children were successfully taken into care and protection in the applications that were filed in those years? Ms S.M. McHALE: I am informed that the information can be provided in the time available, so I will provide it. The department would need to be clear about the information it can give so that I can dutifully answer the question. We can give the number of applications in each of those years and the number of court orders, most but not all of which will relate to the applications. Because of time, applications go over into the next financial year. I cannot ask the department to track every one of those applications to find out what happened to them, as that will take a long time and

E18 [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005]

I am not prepared to commit resources to that, but I will provide the number of court orders in each of those financial years and the number of applications in those years. The CHAIRMAN: That is as agreed on supplementary information No A4. Ms S.E. WALKER: I have the Perth Children’s Court’s own figures on the number of applications, which are contained in the Chief Justice’s annual review of Western Australian courts. What I want to know is: how many of those applications were successfully pursued? There were 320 applications made in 2003-04, and there would be names on those applications. The Perth Children’s Court computer listing system could very simply spit out information on whether those applications had been finalised. How many of the 320 applications in one year were successful, and how many were successful in the other years? It does not take a long time to get that information; it is on a computer. Ms S.M. McHALE: It is on the computers of the Children’s Court. As a minister, I do not have responsibility for the Children’s Court. If the member wants that information, she should ask the Attorney General to provide it. I am offering to provide for the member for each of those three years the number of applications made to the Children’s Court and the number of court orders that were granted to take a child into care. Ms S.E. WALKER: I already have those figures, which have been provided by the Chief Justice. The minister has said that she works closely with the Children’s Court. I fail to see why she is perturbed by - The CHAIRMAN: That is a statement, not a question. Does the member want to ask the minister a question? Ms S.E. WALKER: I am trying to resolve what the supplementary information will contain. The CHAIRMAN: We will not try to resolve it; the member will ask a question. Ms S.E. WALKER: I will not. The Chairman has misunderstood. I do not need to ask the minister a supplementary question. The CHAIRMAN: In that case, the member does not need the call. Mr J.N. HYDE: I refer to page 786 of the Budget Statements, where it is stated that the 167 children who were abused in care in the period between 1993-94 and March 2004 were referred to independent legal advice in 2004-05. Why had children who were abused more than 10 years ago only recently been referred to this type of legal advice? Ms S.M. McHALE: The simple answer is it is because of the absolute indifference of the previous government to meet its responsibility in this area. I would have to reflect also on the overall management of the department during that time. In 1993 a High Court case made it very clear that a child who was harmed while in care had the right to take legal action against the responsible department. Frankly, the figures speak for themselves. Previously no proper information process was in place, no recognition was given to the rights of the children, and no acknowledgment was made of the previous government’s responsibility to make sure that those children had their legal rights. When this matter was brought to my attention in 2003, I required the department to look at each of the cases. That is why we are now seeing the figures to which the member has referred; that is, the 167 children who have been referred to independent legal advice. The government is catching up and dealing with the number of cases that this matter has involved over the past 10 years. We are doing that because due attention had not been paid to this matter previously, and neither the proper systems nor processes had been put in place within the department. Those processes have now been set up. In my view, the previous government’s administration was a period of neglect, which has now been dealt with. We have now caught up and we have made sure that the processes are in place to ensure that that does not happen again. Mr A.J. SIMPSON: I refer to service item 1 on page 772 of the Budget Statements. Has additional money been provided for elsewhere in the budget for the proposed commissioner for children and young people? If not, why has the budget not been increased to meet this election commitment? Ms S.M. McHALE: I think it will be found in another section. I am informed that the funding of $1.5 million for the children’s commission is contained within the Department for Community Development’s total funding. Does the member want any further information? Mr A.J. SIMPSON: I am trying to find out why the budget has not been increased because of the government’s election commitment? Ms S.M. McHALE: My answer is that it has. I think the member is querying why the figures do not look significantly higher. Mr A.J. SIMPSON: That is correct. Ms S.M. McHALE: I will ask Mr Yell to explain that. Mr G. Yell: Although there is an increase of $1.5 million as a result of the establishment of the children’s commissioner, there is an offsetting reduction in the budget because of the lower carryovers in 2005-06 compared with the carryovers in 2004-05. [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E19

Ms S.M. McHALE: I now have the answer to a previous question from the member for Serpentine-Jarrahdale for which I said I would provide supplementary information. Would it be okay for me to deal with that now? The CHAIRMAN: I understand that the minister is willing and able to provide an answer to Supplementary Information No A3. Ms S.M. McHALE: That is right. The question was “What was contained in other expenses?” The answer is $110 000 for audit fees and approximately $100 000 for bank fees. Mrs J. HUGHES: On page 776 of the Budget Statements is a major initiative for 2005-06 to license all outside school hours care services by 27 August. How has the minister ensured that all the registered providers are aware of their legal responsibility to obtain the licences by that time? [11.30 am] Ms S.M. McHALE: I thank the member. I know she is particularly interested in childcare. We have a lot of work to do in this area. The government has increased the resources provided to the staff in the department, but we must do a lot more work. To ensure that register providers are aware of their legal responsibilities, the department has written two letters to all registered providers of care outside school hours detailing the licensing requirements. The staff of the department have made personal contact with all services seeking to obtain a licence and have offered support and advice to the providers to complete that licensing process. A series of workshops on the licensing process, completing the application package and preparing for licensing visits have been provided by the childcare licensing staff. We also have a bimonthly newsletter that goes to service providers. That provides up-to-date information on the licensing requirements, and we have been providing information on the licensing requirements at all quality assurance workshops. Basically, we take every opportunity to talk with the service providers. We also placed an advertisement in The West Australian in April detailing the licensing requirements. This was also placed in the April edition of the newsletter, which is a publication provided by the children’s services support unit. A lot of work is to be done, and we need to make sure that nobody is surprised by the licensing requirements. About 180 service providers will require licences. Mrs J. HUGHES: I congratulate the minister on her undertaking to get all that in hand. However, how will the minister ensure that the services maintain compliance with the regulations? Ms S.M. McHALE: I think that is really important. We must get them up to scratch and then make sure that they maintain that level. The childcare licensing unit will monitor compliance. It will investigate alleged breaches and take appropriate action under the legislation. I am informed that all licensing staff have completed a certificate 4 in the appropriate training on statutory investigation and enforcement. We have also established an outside school hours licensing team to ensure that the issues that confront that sector are addressed by staff who are skilled in licensing processes, and also people from the sector. Of course, the department has the continuing education and support role to advise outside school hours service providers to ensure that they have an ongoing understanding of the regulations. To customise training, again we are using a newsletter. We are posting up-to-date information on the regulations on the department’s web site, and there are regional and metropolitan workshops on improving the quality of services and maintaining compliance with the regulations. Ms S.E. WALKER: I refer to the major achievements for 2004-05 on page 785. The first dot point refers to the creation of 50 additional positions and the appointment of staff to work with children. The member for Mandurah asked a question of the minister on that dot point just a while ago. Was the minister referring to child protection workers in relation to that dot point? Ms S.M. McHALE: When I answered the member for Mandurah’s question, I was talking about the 50 additional staff who were employed in 2004-05. Ms S.E. WALKER: Were they child protection workers? Ms S.M. McHALE: Broadly, they were field workers. The child protection workers came through the Gordon inquiry. Ms S.E. WALKER: Where are they in the budget papers? They are not in there. Ms S.M. McHALE: They were employed in 2003-04. Because of the difficulties in employing people in Warburton, for instance, I think a couple of them were employed in 2004-05. Therefore, they will not appear as a separate line item because they were in the budget in 2003-04. This is 2004-05, and we secured additional funding for 50 staff in 2004-05. Ms S.E. WALKER: I want to ask about child protection workers for Warburton. Last year the minister said that there were child protection workers for Warburton. Are there still child protection workers at Warburton; and, if so, how many, and have any sexual abuse cases been reported there? Ms S.M. McHALE: Yes to the first question. I think the member will be aware that it took quite a lengthy time to attract people to work in Warburton. However, with an enhanced package, we were able to secure the employment of two staff.

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Ms S.E. WALKER: Are they child protection workers? Ms S.M. McHALE: Yes, at Warburton. One is there and one is just about to start in June. Therefore, the second person will start this month. The member asked: have there been any allegations of child sexual abuse in Warburton? I will have to take that as a supplementary question and provide that information to the member. [Supplementary Information No A5.] Ms S.M. McHALE: I will provide the number, if any, of allegations of sexual abuse - Ms S.E. WALKER: Child sexual abuse. Ms S.M. McHALE: - child sexual abuse when the child has been residing in Warburton. Ms S.E. WALKER: These protection workers were sent to Warburton as a result of the Attorney General advising last year that children - Ms S.M. McHALE: No, that is not right. They were sent up there as a result of the Gordon inquiry. They were always nominated in the Gordon inquiry. Ms S.E. WALKER: All right. I will go back to the estimates hearings last year when I said that the Attorney General had mentioned that paedophiles were operating in the community at Warburton, exploiting young people for the purpose of sexual gratification and destroying their lives by giving them money to buy glue, or giving them glue and alcohol. As a result of that, the workers, and the fact that there were no workers there, became relevant. Have the workers identified whether glue or other substances are still being given to children by paedophiles in the community? [11.40 am] Ms S.M. McHALE: Quite frankly, I think the member is asking questions that are beyond the Budget Statements. I am happy to provide that information, but I am not able to give specific details about case management in remote parts of Western Australia. Ms S.E. WALKER: Generally. Ms S.M. McHALE: Generally, of course we know that there is still sniffing in Aboriginal communities. I can give a very general answer. Ms S.E. WALKER: Last year in the estimates committee hearing we concentrated on Warburton and the minister gave specific answers, and I wonder whether it has been cleared up. Ms S.M. McHALE: The member will recall that when the Attorney General came back, he was not specifically talking about Warburton. I know that that is how it was quoted, but he was talking about sniffing and the importance of changing legislation to deal more effectively with sniffing and purchasing small amounts of petrol. I know that there is still petrol sniffing in remote areas, and that is why we have endeavoured to put in place programs through the Alcohol and Drug Authority and the mental health area to try to deal with that situation. If the member for Nedlands wants me to answer specific questions about petrol sniffing in Warburton and whether we have had any recent reports, again, I am happy to seek clarification from the office that supports Warburton and provide information via supplementary information. [Supplementary Information No A6.] Mr P.B. WATSON: I refer to page 769 and the net amount appropriated to deliver services. I have looked at the Budget Statements and I cannot see anything for men’s support groups in the great southern area. Has any money been put aside and where would it be in the budget? Ms S.M. McHALE: The member for Albany has been a very strong advocate for the men’s group in Albany and has arranged for me to meet with two of the men involved. I have been to Albany to talk to those chaps. There is no additional money in the 2005-06 budget specifically for the men’s group in Albany. However, there is funding through the men’s resource service to support men and men’s groups in Western Australia. There are a lot of demands on all budgets from various groups, and it would be nice to be able to meet all those demands, but of course we cannot. An amount of $150 000 has been allocated to Men’s Place and Relationships Australia. Specifically, no, I have not yet secured funding for the group in Albany. Mr P.B. WATSON: Is there any reason for that? Ms S.M. McHALE: I need to deal with a lot of requests from many organisations throughout Western Australia. We need to put the demands into some sort of priority, and that was not one that was seen by the great southern to be at the top of the list. Mr J.N. HYDE: I have a question about the Helping Young People Engage program, which is referred to on page 776. It is noted that one of the major initiatives of the department is to expand the HYPE strategy, which has been, I think, successful in the Kimberley and certainly in my electorate. Why has this strategy been identified as the preferred response to addressing antisocial behaviour among young people in the Kimberley? [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E21

Ms S.M. McHALE: The beauty of the HYPE program is its flexibility and its capacity to work with local people who have local issues. We have had some very good success rates with HYPE, in both metropolitan and country areas. A good example is South Hedland. There were significant antisocial problems around the supermarket and we established a HYPE program with great results. Because HYPE had continually achieved successful results in dealing with antisocial behaviour, and because HYPE requires government agencies to work together, it was seen by the local community as a good model to try to deal with some of the problems in the Kimberley. It will be used in quite a few towns in the Kimberley, including Kununurra, Wyndham, Derby, Fitzroy Crossing and Halls Creek. It is adaptable and it involves local communities, local businesses and young kids. That is one of the strengths of HYPE. We will test it and see how it goes in Kununurra, and I will report back on the outcomes. Mr A.J. SIMPSON: I refer to page 772 and the positive ageing policy, which is service 3. There is a reduction in the budget allocation. Can the minister explain why? Ms S.M. McHALE: I seek your guidance, Madam Chair. This question relates to a service that does not come under my portfolio. It is one of the services that we identified. I think you would concur with the previous Chair. The CHAIRMAN: Service 3 is not under this division. The member can save his questions for later. Ms S.E. WALKER: I refer to the resource agreement outlined on page 773, which states that the responsible minister is the Minister for Community Development; Culture and the Arts; and Women’s Interests. I refer also to the women’s policy and progress at page 780. Why is there an across-the-board reduction in all the budget allocations under service 4, women’s policy and progress? I will not go through them, but the minister can see that there are reductions across the board on pages 780 and 781. Does this have something to do with the fact that the Government Gazette outlines the responsibilities of the Minister for Community Development; Culture and the Arts; and Women’s Interests? There are acts under the portfolios of community development, and culture and the arts, but there is absolutely nothing under women’s interests. Is that a reflection of the government’s interest - absolutely none? There is absolutely nothing there. I have double-checked the next page. I wonder why there is nothing in the Government Gazette. I also wonder why there is a significant reduction in all those figures. Ms S.M. McHALE: The answer to the member’s second question is categorically no, it does not reflect our lack of interest. No pieces of legislation fall under the portfolio of women’s policy. [11.50 am] Ms S.E. WALKER: Are there any in the pipeline? Ms S.M. McHALE: I refer the member to other pieces of legislation, the most significant being the Equal Opportunity Act, which falls under the responsibility of the Attorney General. The reason for the slight reduction is that the 2003-04 actual budget was low due to unexpected underspending during the year, of which there was very little carryover. Ms S.E. WALKER: Yes, but not much is being put in. Ms S.M. McHALE: I ask Maria Osman to explain the difference. Ms M. Osman: Two projects were carried over, totalling $94 000 - the women’s small grants and the women’s fellowship projects. Ms S.E. WALKER: I refer to the same figures on page 781. The average cost per community engagement initiative for women in the 2004-05 budget was $79 729, yet the estimated amount was $60 474. The target now is $61 972. Why has there been such a dramatic reduction in the budgeted amount? Is the government not putting money into it? Ms S.M. McHALE: I should probably say that we are more efficient. In terms of answering the question, the women’s policy portfolio has a very full program of activities for 2005-06, which are listed in the budget papers. The average cost is a simple mathematical calculation. The budget is lower because of the explanations that we have given, so the total amount is less. If we divide that amount by the number of projects, a lower amount is obtained. Mr P.B. WATSON: I refer the minister to the eleventh dot point on page 786 on the specialist child interview unit. When will this initiative be expanded across the state? Ms S.M. McHALE: Planning for the statewide rollout of the initiative is very much under way. Country training will start in June. These sessions will initially start with people who work in the Kimberley and Pilbara, which have been identified as priority areas for the specialist child interview unit approach. The district of the member for Albany and others will receive training by the end of September 2005. The trained staff will be required to be accredited by January 2006. Essentially, we will have very highly trained and well-qualified staff right across the state, which should mean that children in the member’s area and elsewhere in rural Western Australia have access to the same high standards as children in the metropolitan area. I hope that staff in the member’s region will be trained by September 2005 at the latest. The member can let me know if they are not. Mr P.B. WATSON: Will this initiative result in increased protection of children and an increase in the number of convictions of people who abuse children? Are there plans to evaluate this initiative?

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Ms S.M. McHALE: One of our key priorities has been to secure a greater number of convictions. There are problems with securing evidence, particularly when a young child has been abused. Some of the initiatives that have been introduced have concerned the securing of convictions. The model of interviewing is very much child-centred, with the purpose of ensuring that we get to the truth. When offences are disclosed, interviewers strive to maximise the attainment of admissible evidence. That is what the model has been developed to do. It will assist in the prosecution of offenders and the assessment of ongoing protective concerns around children. My objective is to secure a greater number of convictions for perpetrators of abuse. Will it result in increased protection of children? I sincerely hope that it will, because of the assessment of any ongoing protective concerns. The aim is to get a conviction by ensuring that admissible evidence is secured, and to ensure that the child is in a safe environment. They are the objectives of the model. It will be evaluated. Mr A.J. SIMPSON: I refer to the service 7 item, care and safety services, on page 772. What is the reason for service 7 spending $11 million over budget? Can the minister please provide a breakdown of the reasons for this blow- out? Ms S.M. McHALE: Again, this is explained by the carryover of funding from 2003-04 through a number of projects relating to the Gordon Inquiry into Response by Government Agencies to Complaints of Family Violence and Child Abuse in Aboriginal Communities, our election commitments, homelessness and capital works. Is the member referring to the difference between the 2004-05 budgeted amount and the estimated actual amount for service 7? Mr A.J. SIMPSON: Yes. Ms S.M. McHALE: Broadly, it is the carryover of funding. Mr A.J. SIMPSON: Left over from the year before? Ms S.M. McHALE: Some costs were reallocated from one service to the other. I am briefed that it was allocated away from service 1 to service 7. It is labour time. Ms S.E. WALKER: I have my magnifying glass out again on women’s interests. I refer to the fifth dot point on page 781, which states - In consultation with other government agencies, prepared a report on programs and initiatives for Indigenous women, which was presented to the National Indigenous Women’s Gathering. In a recent forum on domestic violence, the Chief Justice said - Although domestic violence knows no boundaries of race, religion or social standing, indigenous Australian women die as a result of domestic or “family” violence at a rate 10 times that of non-indigenous Australian women. Is there any money in the budget for the provision of safe houses in remote areas or the northern regions of Western Australia? Ms S.M. McHALE: Yes, for two safe houses in Laverton and Leonora. I also ask Pauline to talk about supported accommodation and indigenous women. [12 noon] Ms P.M. Bagdonavicius: I will add to the minister’s comments. We fund 34 women’s refuges in the metropolitan and country areas to the tune of $12.4 million, through the commonwealth-state supported accommodation assistance program. From the statistics we collect through our national data collection, we know that 50 per cent of the women using SAAP services are Aboriginal. Ms S.E. WALKER: My question was: how much money is there in the budget for safe houses at Laverton and Leonora and what about the areas further north - I understand that the police have been urging for safe houses there - and also in relation to children? Ms S.M. McHALE: We are introducing safe house models in the Kimberley. Ms S.E. WALKER: Whereabouts? Ms S.M. McHALE: In this budget we have $335 000 for safe places, which is a program; that is, the identification of safe persons and places for Aboriginal women and children and the development of community-designed safety strategies, and they are linked to police in remote areas. That is one project. In the Kimberley, we have the Warmun community development of a safe place, and programs in Fitzroy Crossing, Leonora, Kununurra and Port Hedland and a service contract with the MPY Women’s Council for Domestic and Family Violence Services and it operates in the Central Desert. Recently we put all these services, correct me if I am wrong, for DV online throughout the state, so that anyone anywhere can find out what services are available for victims of domestic violence, and that includes children. [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E23

[Mr A.P. O’Gorman took the chair.] Ms S.E. WALKER: I saw that it is online, but really it does not help people in remote communities or the towns up north. What I specifically wanted to know from my question was: where are there safe houses, not whether there are programs in the Kimberley, Fitzroy, Leonora, Kununurra or Port Hedland, but the provision of safe houses? How many are there? Ms S.M. McHALE: We refer to them as women’s refuges. They are in Albany, Carnarvon, Murchison, goldfields, Kimberley, goldfields, Pilbara, Kimberley, Kimberley, Kimberley, Kimberley, Pilbara, Pilbara, Kimberley, Pilbara, wheatbelt, wheatbelt and Pilbara. Ms S.E. WALKER: Safe houses are a little different from women’s refuges. Does the minister understand that? It is important because the police have asked me about it. It is somewhere that indigenous women can go for particular reasons for a period of time where they are safe. I am asking the minister not about domestic violence refuges, but about safe houses. The minister said there was one in Laverton and one in Leonora. Is the department bringing any more on line? Ms S.M. McHALE: I think the member for Nedlands would find that the women who are being abused and violated do not really care what they are called, they need a safe place. Women in remote areas use refuges as safe places and safe havens. They go there to get away from a drinking or violence period. They actually use the refuges as safe places. We have designated the Leonora and Laverton ones as safe places because they do operate slightly differently. I can assure the member that women in the goldfields use the women’s refuge as a safe place. Ms S.E. WALKER: How do the ones in Leonora and Laverton operate differently from women’s refuges. Mr M. Glasson: The safe house models in Laverton, Meekatharra and also Onslow do not operate as normal standard women’s refuges. They recognise that women there need more than just accommodation. They provide short-term accommodation during high activity periods. They are available when required in the cycle of violence, but they are not 24/7, because those communities do not have the demand to sustain a 24/7 service. The CHAIRMAN: Before I give the member for Perth the call, I remind members that I have two people on the call list to ask a question - the member for Serpentine-Jarrahdale after the member for Perth - and we have division 46 to cover as well. Mr J.N. HYDE: I refer to page 788 of the Budget Statements and the second dot point under major initiatives for 2005-06 relating to resources being developed for children and young people. Will the minister elaborate on exactly what these resources are and when it is likely they will become available? Ms S.M. McHALE: This question does relate to the services that we are dealing with. It goes to services specifically around domestic violence, and issues such as dating violence. It is widely recognised that when a parent is being abused, the trauma and the effects of that abuse impact upon the cognitive and social development of children and young people. We are developing various resource kits for children. Three separate kits comprising a booklet and other material have been developed for young people affected by family and domestic violence and dating violence, and also they encourage young people to support those affected by family and domestic violence. The member for Perth would be pleased to know that these resources have been developed by young people to be relevant to young people in content and form. They will be distributed by the end of August. They have not hit the streets yet. We are also developing a web page to support these resources, and they will be developed with the help of young children. Also, we are working with schools around early intervention strategies to help break the cycle of intergenerational violence and to promote healthy and safe relationships. The domestic violence policy unit is trialling services and materials in six schools, and the Office of Women’s Policy is also working in that area around young women and dating. [12.10 pm] Mr A.J. SIMPSON: I refer to hostels listed as works in progress in the capital works program on page 790. Which hostels have been selected for refurbishment in this financial year? Ms S.M. McHALE: There are four hostels: one in Bunbury, Ardross hostel in the South Metropolitan Region, one in the North Metropolitan Region and one in Kalgoorlie. Ms S.E. WALKER: The first dot point of major achievements for 2004-05 on page 785 refers to 50 additional positions. Can the minister tell me whether any more funds have been made available for the SafeCare program? Ms S.M. McHALE: No additional funds have been allocated to SafeCare. Ms S.E. WALKER: By way of supplementary information, could the minister provide a breakdown of the funds that have been provided for SafeCare over the past three years? Ms S.M. McHALE: Yes, I am happy to provide by way of supplementary information the funding to SafeCare for the years 2004-05, 2003-04 and 2002-03.

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[Supplementary Information No A7.] Mrs J. HUGHES: On page 770 there is reference to the department’s work to introduce criminal record checking under the Working with Children (Criminal Record Checking) Act 2004. Can the minister provide further details about the progress for implementation of this act? Ms S.M. McHALE: An enormous amount of work is currently happening to ensure that this piece of legislation is working by 1 January 2006. Work has been undertaken to establish the business and information technology systems to support the checks, and we have to recruit staff to carry out the checks, develop regulations to underpin the act and ensure that the community is aware of what we are asking it to do under this legislation. We are finalising a community education program. The regulations are being developed to include the arrangements for the phasing in of checks for different groups working with children and the exemptions for parents volunteering to be involved in activities with their children. The automated information management system is being built to link the screening unit with CrimTrac and a number of other government departments. We have to make sure that whatever we build is efficient, that it works and that it does secure the criminal record checking process. We have a contract in place for manufacturing the cards that employees, volunteers and self-employed people will be required to produce and we are developing memorandums of understanding with external parties, such as the police, who will be providing information upon which the screening processes will rely. There are also things like accommodation. Accommodation has been secured and the office is currently being fitted out. The unit will be housed in secure premises to ensure protection of the highly confidential material. It is anticipated that 20 full-time permanent positions will be established in the coming months. We have to recruit those people and appoint them. Following recruitment of the director of the screening unit, the guidelines and the processes for screening will be developed. To summarise: whilst the concept might seem quite simple, the amount of work that must be undertaken to build the information systems, to get the hardware and the software, to get the linkages with CrimTrac and other government agencies, to get the staff employed and to get the regulations organised is a mammoth task. Mrs J. HUGHES: How will these criminal record checks to be introduced under the act improve the protection of children in the community? Ms S.M. McHALE: This is a major screening process. The strength of the legislation is that it checks on charges; it does not rely on convictions. We know from the behaviour of paedophiles that although they can be charged with offences, quite often convictions are not secured. The fact that we will examine charges to build a picture is very important. When the other jurisdictions’ systems are put in place, we will be able to check on other charges in other jurisdictions to strengthen the legislation. The fact that it is retrospective rather than starting from a current date means that we will be able to weed out people who are in positions of trust and who may have a series of charges but no convictions against them. The fact that it applies to volunteers and to self-employed people means that we are casting the net quite broadly. However, it must be seen only as one element of a child protection system and one element of an appropriate screening process. Things such as the recruitment of staff, reference checks and interviewing of people need to be looked at as well. This cannot be seen as being foolproof, but it is one arm of a child protection system. The appropriation was recommended. [12.20 pm] Division 46: Culture and the Arts, $132 661 000 - Mr A.P. O’Gorman, Chairman. Ms S.M. McHale, Minister for Culture and the Arts. Mr A.J.MacL. Bryant, Director General. Mr A. D. Ferris, Acting Chief Financial Officer. Ms A. Lucas, Executive Director, Culture and Arts Development. Ms I. Smith, Acting Director of State Records, State Records Office. Mr R. Palmer, Executive Director, Corporate Assets and Business Support. Mrs M.J. Allen, Chief Executive Officer and State Librarian, State Library of Western Australia. Ms T. Chambers, Chief Executive, ScreenWest. Mr A.R. Dodge, Director, Art Gallery of Western Australia. Dr D. R. Casey, Chief Executive Officer, Western Australian Museum. Ms K. HODSON-THOMAS: My question relates to the capital works program on page 814. I have been in this place for eight years and I still find it very difficult to read the capital works program. I refer to the estimated expenditure to 30 June 2005 and compare that with the estimated expenditure for 2004-05 and seek clarification on a couple of line items. The new theatre construction has an estimated cost of $42.2 million, and some $275 000 has been spent. More particularly, the estimated expenditure to 30 June 2005 for the library and the book purchase program is almost [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E25

$35 million, but the estimated expenditure for 2004-05 is only $8.4 million. Will the minister give me some clarification on why that is so? Am I not reading it accurately? Ms S.M. McHALE: Questions on capital works items are not the easiest to answer. In answer to the question about the new theatre, we have allocated $42 million over the next four years to construct the building. Therefore, in December 2008, we will be inviting the member for Carine to join us in the opening of the new theatre. In this financial year, we expect to spend $400 000 on the theatre, which is essentially for the design of the building, and we will shortly announce a process for the design competition. The expenditure will then be spread over the next four years. We therefore anticipate spending $6.6 million in 2006-07; the bulk of $31.3 million in 2007-08 on the construction of the building; and $3.5 million on the fit-out in 2008-09. The member also asked a question about the library and the book purchase program. Ms K. HODSON-THOMAS: Yes. The minister will note that the estimated expenditure to June 2005 is roughly $35 million but the next column says $8.4 million. I hope that is some kind of error. Ms S.M. McHALE: Basically, the $34.8 million is the amount spent over the total program. I am informed that the program is nine years old and it is, therefore, an accumulation of how much of the $65.776 million has been spent. We expect to spend $7.7 million in 2005-06. It is therefore an accumulation of expenditure over five years in the program. Ms K. HODSON-THOMAS: That $34.8 million is an accumulation over the past few years? Ms S.M. McHALE: Yes; it was not all spent in 2004-05. Ms K. HODSON-THOMAS: That is what I was confused about. Therefore, the expenditure to the end of this financial year will be $8.4 million, and $7.7 million in the 2005-06 year? Ms S.M. McHALE: That is right. Ms S.E. WALKER: I refer to the capital works program also on page 814. Will the minister explain what capital works are happening at the Subiaco Theatre Centre in my electorate and what the additional funding is for? Will the minister also tell me what is happening with the Western Australian Museum? Is it continuing to be decimated and shifted to the nether regions? Ms S.M. McHALE: Mr Chairman, I am affronted at the suggestion that the new research centre in Kew Street is the nether regions. I will answer the first question first. We will spend $2.3 million on the Subiaco Theatre Centre project. I am sure the member for Nedlands will be very pleased that her electorate will get a refurbished facility. I will ask Ms Lucas to give details of what we are doing and then I will talk about the museum. Ms S.E. WALKER: What is left of it! Ms A. Lucas: Firstly, with the City of Subiaco council we will be meeting the Building Code of Australia requirements of the building to provide universal and, obviously, better access for audiences. Some additional community spaces will be provided downstairs. The auditorium of the main theatre will be refurbished; for instance, improved lighting and that sort of thing. The small studio in that area will also be refurbished. We have to realign some fire exits etc. Basically, the refurbishment is to refresh the building and provide additional community space and much better equipment not only for audiences, but also for artists, theatre companies and other groups who will be working in the building. It is therefore a combination of improving theatre facilities, providing better community facilities and addressing some of the heritage features. Ms S.E. WALKER: Is it envisaged that the extra community space at the Subiaco Theatre Centre will be rented out? Ms A. Lucas: Yes, it will be rented out, as are all the other community spaces currently there for community groups. Ms S.M. McHALE: The total expenditure on this project will be $4.7 million. We are in partnership with the City of Subiaco, which will pay half. In relation to what I take to be a facetious remark from the member for Nedlands about the museum, I remind her that there have been many reports in the past few years about the parlous state of the museum in the Francis Street block, primarily because of asbestos in the building. Report after report has been made on the appropriateness of that building as a public space. I am delighted to be part of a government that has done something for the first time about the museum building. Most people who know about it have described it as a time bomb waiting to go off. We therefore bit the bullet. It was not easy, but we secured premises in Kew Street. Ms S.E. WALKER: Where is that? [12.30 pm] Ms S.M. McHALE: On the corner of Orrong Road and Leach Highway, Welshpool. The member should acknowledge that the Francis Street building had gaping holes and the museum had to close for a day when there was a severe storm or some disturbance. However, it was because of the threat to the collections and, more importantly, the threat to the work force, that this government acted. The move to Kew Street has been controversial. Ms S.E. WALKER: It is only temporary is it not?

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Ms S.M. McHALE: It is a temporary space but it is a state-of-the-art facility. I will explain that. The government has now secured a permanent climatically controlled state-of-the-art facility in which research can be conducted and the collections of Western Australia can be stored. The majority of the collections were stored in totally inappropriate conditions. We have been able to secure for the long-term benefit of the people of Western Australia a facility that is only 10 minutes away from the central business district. Staff from the Francis Street site have all been relocated. I pay tribute to the museum staff. It is not often that a museum is relocated. The project has been managed extremely well. Notwithstanding the staff’s resistance to change and some of the angst they felt, they are now very settled. The next part of the project is to consider alternative sites and the current site, which is an important heritage site. We must then determine how to best proceed with the next stage, which is to design a museum suitable for the twenty-first century. I will ask Dr Casey to comment on the transition. Dr Casey joined us only in February and therefore was not involved in the earlier months of the process. She will comment on the state of the staff now that they have shifted to Kew Street. Ms S.E. WALKER: They were very upset, were they not? Ms S.M. McHALE: I ask Dr Casey to comment on the effect the relocation had on the staff and on what the government has delivered. Dr D.R. Casey: There is no doubt that the morale of the staff has lifted considerably. As the minister said, the facility is world class. I have visited a number of collection facilities, nationally and internationally. The staff have much more access to the collection than before and the collection items are now stored in conditions that will allow them to be preserved for future generations. Apart from that, a number of improvements have been made to the Perth site and work is being done with the museum staff to consider its future directions and operations. Ms S.E. WALKER: How long is it anticipated that the museum’s staff and the collection will be kept in the nether regions? I suggest that it is highly unusual for a museum to be located away from the main city area. What will be done with the Francis Street building? Is anyone occupying it at the moment? Is any work being done on it? The CHAIRMAN (Mr A.P. O’Gorman): That was two questions. Ms S.M. McHALE: The Francis Street building is not occupied. That building was riddled with asbestos. We have shifted everybody out of it. Other functioning areas of the Perth site are open to the public. The Katta Djinoong space was refurbished. As a result of the move, the First Peoples of Western Australia exhibition is far superior. The government spent $611 514 to upgrade the Katta Djinoong space. The Lands People exhibition is currently being shown. The museum is still functioning as public exhibition space in the Perth site. Something had to be done with the Francis Street building. We had to relocate the magnificent whale, which is being worked on at Kew Street. A lot of conservation work that had to be done on that piece could not have been done in situ. There have been very good spin- offs as a result of the move. It is on the public record that staff were upset by the move, and I understood that. However, the government had to act and find an alternative space for the collections. Mr P.B. WATSON: Albany will have it for a while. Ms S.M. McHALE: Albany will benefit from this also. It is our intention that the Kew Street site will remain as a storage space for the long term. The planning for the new museum will take approximately five years. Ms S.E. WALKER: Just the planning? Ms S.M. McHALE: The planning and development of a museum; the whole process. Ms S.E. WALKER: Does that include the building? Ms S.M. McHALE: The total planning of the building will take between five and eight years. I will make it clear that the public has access to the Perth site and will also be able to access the collections for research or for other purposes. There are clear positive spin-offs from the move. Ms S.E. WALKER: Mr Chairman - The CHAIRMAN: The member for Nedlands has asked seven consecutive questions. Other members are seeking the call. Ms S.E. WALKER: I have a quick further question. Is the Welshpool site open to the public and has there been a drop off in the number of Perth citizens who have visited the museum? Ms S.M. McHALE: It is not open to the public. The member rolls her eyes as though there is something dramatically wrong with that. We are talking about the Kew Street facility being used for research activities and storage. The beauty of that, because the building is so well designed, is that the public will be able to access the collections for research. Dr D.R. Casey: It is not unusual for museums nationally and internationally to store their collections outside the CBD. It is easier for the public to have access to collections. Towards the end of this calendar year we intend to hold special public tours at the Welshpool site. Mr P.B. WATSON: I have one question for the minister. The third dot point on page 808 of the Budget Statements refers to the appointment of an arts development officer who commenced work in the Gascoyne region. Will the minister outline the range of regional cultural programs that are operated and/or funded by the state government? [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E27

Ms S.M. McHALE: I thank the member for Albany for his question and also for his involvement in the work we have been doing for regional museums. ArtsWA supports two regional arts development officers based in the Pilbara and in the Gascoyne. These are partnerships with commonwealth and local government agencies. ArtsWA also manages a range of touring and arts development funding programs that benefit regional communities. That includes devolved funding programs from Country Arts WA, Community Arts Network Western Australia, the Western Australian State Literature Centre and a number of other organisations. The government provides recurrent funding to the following regionally based organisations: Magabala Books in Broome, the International Art Space in Kellerberrin and Southern Edge Arts in Albany - Mr P.B. WATSON: It does a great job. It is shifting into its new PCYC building in the next few weeks. The CHAIRMAN: The member must seek the call if he wants to ask a question. Ms S.M. McHALE: The government also is providing additional funding this year to the four major performing arts companies: that is, the Western Australian Ballet, the West Australian Opera Company, the West Australian Symphony Orchestra and the Black Swan Theatre Company, to assist regional touring activities. Priority is given to regionally based applicants to ArtsWA peer assessment funding panels. I recall - somebody can correct me if I am wrong - that the government has increased the additional spending on regional arts by about 39 per cent between 2002-03 and 2004- 05. Funding for regional arts has increased significantly under this government. [12.40 pm] Mr J.N. HYDE: My question relates to ScreenWest, and I refer to page 810 and also, I guess, page 799. I note that the first dot point of the major initiatives for 2005-06 listed on page 810 and the major policy decisions listed on page 799 indicate that ScreenWest’s WA OnScreen program will receive $8 million over the next four years. Will the minister explain how this new program will operate, why the decision has been made to fund it this way, and the impact it could or should have on the Western Australian economy? Ms S.M. McHALE: I thank the member for Hyde for that question. The CHAIRMAN: Member for Perth. Mr J.N. HYDE: It was Lord Hyde, Earl of Clarendon, my forebear representing Oxbridge. The CHAIRMAN: I thank the member for the history lesson. Ms S.M. McHALE: Was he a role model for the member? This is an exciting area of our creative industry’s agenda. In 2004-05, we funded ScreenWest an amount of $2 million. We have now been able to secure $8 million over the next four years. We believe that the economic investment and the economic returns to Western Australia are significant. Basically, we want to use this funding to guarantee the continued growth of the Western Australian screen industry. It will deliver increased feature film and other drama activity in Western Australia. We want to focus on the skills of indigenous creative talent in the screen industry, and to provide increased opportunities for indigenous stories to be presented. The member may well have seen Deadly Yarns on ABC television recently. They were short films funded through ScreenWest. We estimate that over the next four years, that $8 million investment will deliver production activity of about $22 million. It will attract about $14 million from sources outside WA government moneys, and we believe it will result in about $17 million of expenditure on WA elements. We will continue the low-budget feature films, indigenous drama investment, screen industry partnership and matching development funds in research and development. We are very excited about the work we are doing in the film industry, and we are seeing positive returns. Ms K. HODSON-THOMAS: Yet again, my question relates to the capital works program and the relocation of the West Australian Symphony Orchestra. Will the minister give us an update on how that is progressing? Ms S.M. McHALE: To which page is the member referring? Ms K. HODSON-THOMAS: It is page 814. I note that the estimated expenditure in 2005-06 is $6.4 million. Quite clearly, significant works will be undertaken in the next financial year. I am really asking the minister to give us an update on its relocation. Ms S.M. McHALE: We have done a lot of work on how we might locate the orchestra in the Perth Concert Hall. It was generally agreed that we wanted to nominate the Concert Hall as the home of WASO. WASO has moved out of Adelaide Terrace, and it has accommodation. We have increased the amount of time that the orchestra now rehearses in the Concert Hall and on the stage. I can tell the member that the response from the orchestra and, indeed, the overall quality are wonderful. Obviously, the orchestra is very happy to be rehearsing as much as it can in the Concert Hall. We have worked with the City of Perth and the symphony orchestra in developing a range of options - architectural options as well as others. We are still finalising those. There was a proposal to build on to the Concert Hall. That is still being looked at. However, the pressure on the symphony orchestra to find immediate accommodation has been removed because it has secured long-term accommodation very close to the Concert Hall. We want to find the best option for the symphony orchestra and for the city to ensure that the symphony orchestra has a permanent home, that it has improved facilities for its players and that it can rehearse in the Concert Hall if not 100 per cent of the time, then pretty close to it. We are certainly delivering that for its gala performances in its master series. For the performances that are held in the Concert Hall, the symphony orchestra rehearses in the Concert Hall.

E28 [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005]

Ms K. HODSON-THOMAS: Further to that, is it anticipated that it will be dealt with over the next 12-month period, or is the minister suggesting that it will take much longer than that to find a permanent home for WASO? Perhaps I should clear it up. Will the allocation of $6.4 million all be expended in the 2005-06 financial year? Ms S.M. McHALE: It is expected to be. It depends on the final options. As I said, I am very keen to draw a line on this and say that we have delivered on that, and we can now rest easy that the orchestra is permanently housed, is rehearsing in the Concert Hall and has superior facilities. That is my objective. We are still working through whether it will be a new construction or additions to the Concert Hall. I will not impose one solution on WASO or the City of Perth. We all have the common aim of trying to say, “Right. This is finished, and we have provided a permanent home for the symphony orchestra.” Mrs J. HUGHES: I refer to page 799. Will the minister explain the significance of the funding for the exhibition program of the Art Gallery of Western Australia and its influence on the programs presented by the gallery for its visitors? Ms S.M. McHALE: This is good news for the Art Gallery. In December 2004 I put a proposal to Treasury that we retire or repay debt that the Art Gallery had had for many, many years. There was a debt outstanding of $5.8 million. This was obviously being financed on a recurrent basis to the tune of about $700 000. Treasury agreed with me that it would repay that debt. That allowed the significant recurrent funds that were being used to pay off the debt to be used in the gallery. That in effect provides significant recurrent funds of approximately $708 000 annually. That is made up of $305 000, which is the principal repayment on the loan, and $403 000 in interest payments. We have paid off the debt, and we have said to the Art Gallery that it can now use that funding to continue to bring the art of the world to the people of Western Australia. Of course, the first of the ongoing programs is St Petersburg 1900, which all members should make a note in their diaries is on 10 July. It will be a fabulous opening of a fabulous exhibition. I am very pleased to have been able to deliver an extra $700 000 recurrent funding to the Art Gallery to ensure that we can secure exhibitions. It takes a long time but it brings enormous pleasure to the Western Australian community. [12.50 pm] Mr A.J. SIMPSON: Can the minister please give me some details of the money received by the Art Gallery of Western Australia from Mr Handa? I refer to page 818. Ms S.M. McHALE: I do not think there is reference to Mr Handa on that page. The CHAIRMAN (Mr A.P. O’Gorman): We will go to the next member and return to the member for Serpentine- Jarrahdale. Mr P.B. WATSON: I refer to page 799. Can the minister explain the new funding allocated to the Better Beginnings Family Literacy program and advise how this will impact on families across Western Australia? Ms S.M. McHALE: The member for Albany will be very interested to know that we have committed $766 000 over the next four years to expand the Better Beginnings Family Literacy program on a statewide basis. This is a great initiative of the State Library of Western Australia, which picked up the research on early years development and the importance of reading to the overall development of children in their later lives. We have secured a partnership with local government and Rio Tinto Ltd, and they will provide $500 000 in funding over the next four years so that we will be able to reach every newborn baby - some 25 000 of them - and their families. This follows on from a very successful pilot in 10 Western Australian communities. It has been evaluated by Edith Cowan University. The program provides parents with an innovative way to make the most of those critical early years in the development of a child through the development of reading and literacy skills. The program will be rolled out statewide. It will work with local government and will involve parents, as the first teachers in a child’s life. It will also help develop the profile of public libraries. It will involve local government, community groups, child health groups and other organisations that are involved with reading and books in a child’s early life. Mr J.N. HYDE: The theatre funding strategy is referred to at page 808. The sixth dot point of the major initiatives for 2004-05 states that the theatre funding strategy in consultation with the professional theatre sector is in its final stages. Further to the minister’s briefing in this forum last year on the same subject - as well as Minister Foss’s theatre strategies and forums for about two centuries - can the minister indicate what progress has been made, the time line and what we will get from these endless strategies? Ms S.M. McHALE: This time the member will see a strategy that results in things happening, because this is the Gallop Labor government, which might have strategies but, more importantly, has results. We have committed $1 million to the first stage of implementing the strategy. Our intention is to invigorate, develop and sustain professional theatre in Western Australia. In 2004 we committed to increase the Black Swan Theatre Company’s funding so that it will be the state’s flagship theatre company. We will increase its funding to $1.2 million by 2008. Negotiations with the Australian government have resulted in an increase in funding from the commonwealth to support the Black Swan Theatre Company in this role, which is great news. ArtsWA is in the process of completing the final consultation paper on the small to medium theatre sector, which will seek comment from the theatre community. That will be completed in August 2005 and will enable the strategy to be implemented in 2006. [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E29

Mr J.N. HYDE: With funding for Black Swan being increased to $1.2 million and all the extra federal money, will we still get only three or four productions each year from it? Is there a service agreement with it on outputs? Ms S.M. McHALE: We have a triennial agreement, and we are still in that agreement. I ask Ms Lucas to provide the detail on that question. Ms A. Lucas: Yes, we have a triennial - in fact, it is also a tripartite - contract between the commonwealth, the state and Black Swan. We are looking at incremental increases over the next period to build up the number of productions. Currently, because of a mixture of co-productions, youth productions etc, it is performing about four or five productions a year, but that is not along the lines of what we expect a flagship to do. We expect a flagship to reach about four or five productions, possibly with a smaller sixth one by 2008. Mr J.N. HYDE: That is four or five original Western Australian productions, not re-branded imports sourced from Playing Australia’s catalogue. For the $2 million or $3 million a year of Western Australian and commonwealth money, will we get Western Australian product? Ms S.M. McHALE: That would be our intention. The last play was, I think, Yandy. Again, I will ask Ms Lucas to comment on the planning of future programs. Ms A. Lucas: First, there are two differentiations, one of which is that we will look very much to produce work, of which the majority will be by Western Australian artists and writers. We do not impose quotas, so I could not say whether there will be three, four, five or whatever number of productions, depending on the year. However, that is one of the strong criteria within the tripartite agreement. Mrs J. HUGHES: I refer to page 807 and the Welcome Walls project at the Western Australian Maritime Museum. It is referred to in the seventeenth dot point of the 2004-05 major achievements and in the fifth dot point of the major initiatives for 2005-06. Will the minister outline why the project has been extended for a second year and what the public’s response has been to date? Ms S.M. McHALE: The first stage generated an enormous response from the Western Australian community throughout the latter half of 2004. About 8 000 people took up the offer to register their family names on the walls over a seven-week period. That far exceeded the expectations of all of us. It was based on what happened in New South Wales, and the Western Australian community embraced the idea. In the light of that success to date, and the continuing requests for inclusion on the walls, the Premier announced that there would be a second stage. That stage will allow an additional 8 000 families - it will double the number - to register. I understand that some 5 000 have already taken up that offer, so those 8 000 positions will be filled in a very short time. The Welcome Walls project has generated more than 40 000 additional visitors to the Maritime Museum in the past six months. There has been unprecedented interest in people tracing their family history. The spin-offs have been not only visits to the Maritime Museum but also strong demand for services from the state records facilities, the Battye Library, the State Library and the National Archives of Australia. There is a real passion in Western Australia to understand our immediate and recent family history. It is quite remarkable and, I think, very healthy. Stage 2 will enable 16 000 families to be registered. I am briefed that the total number of families registered for the Welcome Walls as at 30 May was 13 000. That is why we want stage 2 to occur. I am sure that that will not satisfy the appetite, but it is a great response. The appropriation was recommended. Meeting suspended from 1.00 to 2.00 pm Division 42: Western Australian Planning Commission, $63 611 000 - Mrs D.J. Guise, Chairman. Ms A.J.G. MacTiernan, Minister for Planning and Infrastructure. Mr G.S. Martin, Director General, Department for Planning and Infrastructure. Mr P. Frewer, Acting Deputy Director General, Department for Planning and Infrastructure. Mr R. Kernahan, Director, Financial Planning, Department for Planning and Infrastructure. Mr T.M. Hillyard, Manager, WAPC Land Asset Management, Department for Planning and Infrastructure. Mr A. Jamieson, Executive Director, Operations, Department for Planning and Infrastructure. Mr W. Ielati, Acting Chief Finance Officer, Department for Planning and Infrastructure. Mr R.D. Farrell, Principal Policy Officer, Office of the Minister for Planning and Infrastructure. The CHAIRMAN: This estimates committee will be reported by Hansard staff. The daily proof Hansard will be published at 9.00 am tomorrow. The estimates committee’s consideration of the estimates will be restricted to discussion of those items for which a vote of money is proposed in the consolidated fund. This is the prime focus of the committee. Although there is scope for members to examine many matters, questions need to be clearly related to a page number, item, program or amount

E30 [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] within the volumes. For example, members are free to pursue performance indicators that are included in the budget statements while there remains a clear link between the questions and the estimates. It is the intention of the Chairperson to ensure that as many questions as possible are asked and answered and that both questions and answers are short and to the point. The minister may agree to provide supplementary information to the committee, rather than asking that the question be put on notice for the next sitting week. For the purpose of following up the provision of this information, I ask the minister to clearly indicate to the committee which supplementary information she agrees to provide and I will then allocate a reference number. If supplementary information is to be provided, I seek the minister’s cooperation in ensuring that it is delivered to the committee clerk by 17 June 2005, so that members may read it before the report and third reading stages. If the supplementary information cannot be provided within that time, written advice is required of the day by which the information will be made available. Details in relation to supplementary information have been provided to both members and advisers and, accordingly, I ask the minister to cooperate with those requirements. I caution members that if a minister asks that a matter be put on notice, it is up to the member to lodge the question on notice with the clerk’s office. Only supplementary information that the minister agrees to provide will be sought by 17 June 2005. I will allow further questions on a particular line if they are sought. It will not be an opportunity for another question, unless it is on the same budget item, within reason. Members may seek that if they wish. I would also ask that after they have asked their question, members indicate if they wish to ask another question. I do not intend to keep a list that is like War and Peace. Members will get the call at the nod. Before I proceed with the question, I understand that there might have been an informal agreement among members to start with division 42. I need the agreement of the committee that that is the case; otherwise, I will run through the divisions as listed. I understand there was some discussion about this matter, and I want confirmation. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: This was designed to ensure two things: that opposition members - I am always very mindful of looking after their interests - would be available at the time most appropriate for them and also, of course, to minimise the amount of time that each group of public servants needed to be here. The CHAIRMAN: Do I have the agreement of members that I can start at division 42? As that is agreed, the question will be that the appropriation for division 42 be recommended. Mr G. SNOOK: On page 708 relating to strategic planning, the total cost of service has risen significantly from the 2003-04 actual and the 2004-05 budget to an estimated actual in 2004-05 of $11.717 million and a budget estimate for 2005-06 of approximately the same amount. There is a reason for that significant variation. Could the minister explain that nearly doubling in two budgets? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: These are a raft of new projects. I have made the point that I do not necessarily think that these budget papers are expressed in as clear a form as they could be. It is part of the problem that we have getting transparent categorisations through Treasury. One would have thought that this strategic planning would really focus on the job of actually doing planning, but it also includes a number of other things that are not involved in the actual provision of planning services. That is part of the reason that this answer will seem a bit bizarre. First, these are some of the increased items: we have committed $2.5 million to the restoration of the foreshore at Leighton in front of the Leighton marshalling yards. We have established a dialogue with the city communities program, which is basically a grants program to local governments to allow them to run local dialogues. The figure is $800 000. Part of our election commitment was to increase coastal zone management expenditure, and this has been increased by $100 000. Some more items of expenditure more classically fit within the description of strategic planning, including increased expenditure on the regional planning schemes and an administrative expense allocation of $200 000. The big increases there are the moneys that will be spent on the Leighton foreshore, the dialogue with the city grants that will go to local government and the increased expenditure for coastal zone management. Mr G. SNOOK: Would the minister be able to list those by costings and project form? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: I have just listed those. Mr G. SNOOK: They do not add up to the difference. The figures are $2.5 million, $800 000 and $100 000. I am asking in order to expedite the proceedings. [2.10 pm] Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: There are increased allocations to south west Bush Forever of an additional $60 000. There is an increase of $40 000 to the Pinjarra road reservation scheme, and an increase to the Nambeelup industrial area study, which accounts for almost $200 000. Obviously, there will be increases in the cost of staff etc. All the costs would be calculated into the figures. The costs have been quite significant. We have had to compete with the private sector to retain planning officers. It is one of the pressures that government agencies face; they have skills sets that are sought after by the private sector. Some of it is due to the increase in the number of staff and costs per staff as the government has entered into new agreements. There are also costs associated with other schemes. [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E31

Ms J.A. RADISICH: I refer to the first dot point listed under the environment at page 704, which refers to resource management initiatives of the Western Australian Planning Commission. Will the minister advise of the WAPC’s investment in regional parks? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: Since coming to government, we have continued a positive initiative, which was started by the previous government. I make that point because it is important to understand that, when we were in opposition, we took a bipartisan view towards many planning initiatives, including Bush Forever. This government has continued to support Bush Forever. Last year $3.5 million was spent purchasing urban bushland from private landowners in the Perth metropolitan area under the Bush Forever initiative. That has been a big item of expenditure. The government has also spent $16.4 million purchasing land for eight regional parks in the Perth metropolitan area. The land has been purchased from private landowners and are for parks such as Yellagonga, Beeliar and the Canning River. The plan that has been mapped out for Perth over the past 40 to 50 years has given it quality parkland. The government is very keen to extend the plan to the Peel region and the south west if it could only get the same degree of bipartisanship that it extended when the schemes were started. The government has been able to spend $1.1 million on land acquisition for the Peel Regional Park and $1.6 million for regional parks in the greater Bunbury area. Mr G.M. CASTRILLI: I refer to the key efficiency indicators at page 710 of the Budget Statements, specifically the two line items for acquisitions within the approved range and disposals in excess of the reserve price. The 2004-05 estimated figures are 97 per cent and 95 per cent respectively. In 2005-06 they are both listed at 80 per cent. Are there anticipated reasons or factors to account for the reduction in the index? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: Is the member referring to acquisitions? Mr G.M. CASTRILLI: Yes, and disposals. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: The member should read what was targeted in last year’s budget. The government targeted 75 per cent in each of the categories. The government believes it performed much better than that. In response, the government has increased the target rate to 80 per cent. The target rate is increased five percentage points in order to set the bar higher. Based on last year’s performance, we are confident we can meet the higher target. Mr G.M. CASTRILLI: In the 2003-04 actual, the rates were 97 per cent and 100 per cent respectively. The government is still below the target of 2003-04. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: Yes. The government occasionally achieves perfection but it has to be realistic that it cannot necessarily set that as an absolute. The real story is that we are moving the target up and we will continue to do that if we have been able to perform within that range. An 80 per cent target is pretty good. Mr G.M. CASTRILLI: I wondered whether any specific factor was at play. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: No. As I said, we performed better than we had targeted last year so the target was increased this year. Mr B.J. GRYLLS: I refer to page 703. The grand total for the 2004-05 budget is $55.291 million and the 2004-05 estimated actual is $59.416 million. That represents a 7.4 per cent increase over the budget. Will the minister explain those figures? I am trying to gain an understanding of the figure being over the budget allocated by the minister in 2004-05. The member spoke to the member for Moore about increasing staff costs etc. I need to understand if it is the reason behind this and where the budget process is going. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: Sure. This is not expenditure; this is the amount of money available to the commission. Because of the booming economy, due in part to sound economic management, we had additional receipts into the metropolitan region improvement fund. Mr B.J. GRYLLS: Are those extra receipts being spent? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: There is a surplus of approximately $5 million this year. Mr B.J. GRYLLS: Is the surplus being carried over? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: It is not quite a question of it being carried over, because it is there. It is not like money that is carried over in the consolidated fund when there must be Treasury approval to carry it over. The fund can be spent only on things that are designated within the metropolitan region scheme legislation. It is available for future years. Mr B.J. GRYLLS: I thank the minister. Mr D.A. TEMPLEMAN: I require an update on the Network City planning strategy. I would like to know how it will be implemented. [2.20 pm] Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: I thank the member for the question. It is pretty clear that there is very strong support across the community generally - within industry, the development profession, planners and most local governments -

E32 [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] for the approach that has come out of the “Dialogue with the city”. That process was very much about involving the public in the development of a planning strategy. The strategy that has emerged is a vision of a multi-nodal, organic, interactive city in light of the history of the development of Perth - much of the very sound planning that has gone on before, and our corridor development. The objective is to see how we can contain sprawl within a corridor formation, and that creates special challenges, but it allows for very specific opportunities. The idea of interactive nodes of development along activity corridors will provide good insight for the future direction of Perth. We perhaps had not really targeted our grants program as well as we could have. However, in this strategy, we must sign off on the final implementation plan, but we want to drill this down into dialogues at a local government level. The grants program I spoke of earlier in response to the first question will be much more clearly focused this year on implementing those direct dialogues across the metropolitan area. For that purpose, we include the fabulous area of Peel. We want to implement some transit-oriented development that focuses on those areas in which there are real opportunities for developing vibrant town centres along activity corridors. We have already started that work at Armadale and Gosnells and, to some extent, at Bassendean. There is much more opportunity for that across the metropolitan area from Claremont to Murdoch station, which will be a very exciting development. The same applies to Mandurah and the development around the Mandurah transport network, the linkage of that along that corridor back into the centre of the town centre, and the town centre revitalisation. Perhaps 40 potential transit-oriented developments around the metropolitan area have been identified that will give us an opportunity to drive this agenda. Dr J.M. WOOLLARD: I refer to asset management, on page 709, and acquisition and disposal, on page 710. I am particularly interested in what is happening with the Heathcote lowlands. The minister may remember that it was part of a 2001 agreement when the upper land was refurbished for $5 million. There was some question about the lowlands being developed. I believe the government has now decided not to redevelop the lowlands but to vest them with the City of Melville. Will the minister bring me up to date on that issue? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: The government has not given this issue any consideration. We hope that by the end of the year we will have an opportunity to conduct whatever formal processes are needed to consider this. Dr J.M. WOOLLARD: Is the minister saying that no consideration has been given to vesting it in the council or has a decision not been made yet? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: This is not an urgent project; it is vacant crown land. Nothing is turning on it at this time. We are dealing with many other real and pressing issues. This has not reached the top of the pile. Hopefully, by the end of the year we will have cleared the decks of other matters of greater importance and will have made a determination about it. Dr J.M. WOOLLARD: Will the determination be whether there will be development on the land or whether the land will be vested with the City of Melville? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: At the moment the land is under reservation. I do not see that there is any urgency about this issue. As I said, no-one has any proposals at this point to do anything with it at all. It is government-owned land that is under reservation. When we get a spare moment or two we will consider it. Dr J.M. WOOLLARD: Will there be a battle at the end of the year to keep that land? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: It is not a matter that is being considered by government at this point. Mr S.R. HILL: I refer the minister to the second dot point under “People and Communities” on page 703, which refers to the state sustainability strategy. When will a new sustainability index be introduced to deliver energy savings into new homes? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: I know that the member and the member sitting next to him are particularly interested in how we might better design our homes to achieve greater savings in energy and water. We need to ensure that we develop better methods of calculating the sustainability of both subdivision designs and homes constructed on subdivisions. We have been very much taken with the work done in New South Wales over the past few years with the introduction of its BASIX system - a sustainability index that sets targets for savings in both energy consumption and water consumption. Very practical, tangible outcomes can be achieved. To take this forward we have done a lot of work with people in New South Wales. We have been developing the data appropriate for Western Australia because these things require a very real understanding of micro climates - climates for every area - so that we can calculate how a particular housing design would perform in certain environments. The design and data that are appropriate for sunny Geraldton would not be appropriate for the cooler climes of, say, Albany. We have been collecting a lot of data to underpin this system. We have also said that we want to work very closely with industry to make sure it is cost effective. Although some additional costs up front might be incurred, it can still be done in a very affordable manner. Given the whole-of-life-cycle costs, in reality home owners will be saved substantial sums in meeting these energy and water efficiency targets. There is no doubt that the cost of energy and water over the next decade or two will increase quite considerably. If we continue to design housing that has absolutely no regard for energy and water efficiency, we will be building not only an environmental but also an economic nightmare for our community and the individuals in those homes. Much of the design can be achieved without incurring extra cost. In fact, the more energy efficient [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E33 roofing type and colour is the cheaper option. I urge members who want to see how this can be done in an affordable way to go and look at the excellent Elements project house, which was built by our good friend BGC, with LandCorp as the client, in Harvest Lakes. [2.30 pm] Ms J.A. RADISICH: Further to the member for Geraldton’s question, some commentators have been saying that the energy efficient options for new homes may cost up to an additional $30 000. Does the minister have any estimate of the cost of the modifications that will need to be made? Although the minister did say earlier that those costs could be covered by the whole-of-life-cycle of the house, could the home builder or home buyer save money and make a profit in the long term rather than just cover those extra costs? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: Some work still needs to be done to make those calculations. However, from the calculations that we have done for the Elements house, we think it will cost an additional $15 000 to convert the basic project home into the more sustainable version. The house will be able to be produced at around $170 000, which is certainly well within the average range. The Elements house is certainly much healthier and has a greater flow through of air, and if it keeps performing in the way it appears to be performing, it will achieve an internal temperature of between 18 and 28 degrees all year round, without the aid of airconditioning or heating. That will mean a massive saving in electricity consumption for both individuals and the community. Ms J.A. RADISICH: I refer to page 710. The third dot point under major initiatives for 2005-06 refers to the completion of the transport heritage centre at Whiteman Park, which, as the minister would know, was formerly in my electorate but is now neighbouring the area that I represent. How is that project progressing, what is the current status of that work, and what is the total investment that will be made in that facility? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: I thank the member for the question. This project is very dear to the heart of many people in the WAPC. We are refurbishing that centre. In this current financial year we have spent $1.6 million on that project. Another $200 000 has been budgeted for 2005-06 for further exhibition development and operation. We hope to open the centre in October 2005. This is a very worthwhile project, and even though the member is no longer the member representing this area, I know that the communities in the member’s electorate use Whiteman Park. If we are to get a proper balance across Perth, we need to encourage more people to move into the eastern half of the city. If we are to be successful in doing that, it is very important that we provide good quality regional facilities in the eastern half of the metropolitan area. The transport heritage centre is a very positive project, and we look forward to the member joining us in October 2005 for the opening of that centre. Mr G.M. CASTRILLI: I refer to page 709. The second last dot point under major initiatives for 2005-06 refers to the preparation of a structure plan for the Binningup-Myalup area. When does the minister anticipate that plan will be completed, and what sort of area are we talking about in size? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: I will ask Mr Frewer to comment. Mr P. Frewer: The Binningup structure plan covers the area to the northern end of Bunbury, as the member is aware. The idea is to look at the current growth that Binningup is experiencing, and also try to balance out the growth requirements, albeit small, of the Myalup area. A plan will be prepared in conjunction with the local community and the local council. The Shire of Harvey has also budgeted $10 000 to make a contribution towards the structure plan, because of the growth that is being experienced on the coast. We are still at the point of scoping that out. The plan has not formally been commenced. Mr G.M. CASTRILLI: Is it anticipated that it will be completed this financial year? Mr P. Frewer: We anticipate that a draft will be prepared by the end of 2005-06. Mr G. SNOOK: I refer the minister to page 711, completed works, acquisition of land 2004-05 program. I do not understand this newspeak accounting. In 2004-05 the estimated expenditure was $50 040. However, under new works, acquisition of land 2005-06 program, it is broken up into two figures; namely, regional land acquisitions and general acquisitions. That appears not to have happened last time. Am I correct in that assumption? Can the minister outline where that is broken down in the other accounting statements? I cannot see where it is shown. I would be pleased to have an explanation of why there is no figure for new works under the columns for estimated expenditure to 30 June 2005 and estimated expenditure 2004-05. Is this a new form of presentation? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: I do not think there is anything terribly secretive about it. It is just a style of presentation. Mr G. SNOOK: Newspeak? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: It is not newspeak. Under completed works, there is a description of what the money will be spent on; namely, regional land acquisitions, reserves - Mr G. SNOOK: I want to know whether the procedures have changed from last year to this year. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: I am prepared to provide the member, by way of supplementary information, with what the new works are estimated to be for 2004-05 in the various categories; namely, acquisition of land program, Perth’s

E34 [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005]

Bushplan program, recreation reserves (area assistance scheme) program, and regional land acquisitions program. Therefore, to ensure it is provided for the member in the same format, we will provide by way of supplementary information last year’s budget estimate broken down in those same categories. [Supplementary Information No A8.] [2.40 pm] Mr G. SNOOK: Can it be identified where those moneys actually reside in the budget papers? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: What does the member mean by “actually reside”? Mr G. SNOOK: They will not be in the income statements for obvious reasons. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: The member is asking about what was in last year’s budget papers. Mr G. SNOOK: I refer to this year’s. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: What is in this year’s budget is itemised. The member said he wanted the equivalent figures for last year, and I have agreed to provide that information. Therefore, I do not understand the second question. Mr G. SNOOK: I asked in my second question where this year’s new works are identified in the financial statements. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: To some extent, we cannot tell the member what the land acquisitions will be because we cannot look into a crystal ball and say we will buy land from Mr Bloggs and Mr Fanchino. It will depend on the land settlements we negotiate. We cannot list in advance all the things we will buy. The member will probably appreciate that much land acquisition is triggered by property owners wanting to sell property that has been reserved or has been targeted as Bush Forever land. Approaches are made to us by owners of land seeking that we purchase it from them, or they lodge a development application - Mr G. SNOOK: I understand that. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: We cannot tell the member the information in advance. It must wait until it is allocated. Mr G. SNOOK: Where is the money allocated as expenditure in either the cash flow statement or some other statements? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: It is allocated here as an expenditure item on this page. The CHAIRMAN: If the member has a further question, he should ask it through the Chair. Mr G. SNOOK: It is an ongoing question, Madam Chair. I am trying to see whether the minister can get her staff to identify where the corresponding figures lie in the financial statements. It is a simple question. The minister refers to the program. I want to know where the figures are found in the cash flow statements. Where are they identified in outgoings or the balance sheet? I tried, but I am afraid I could not pick them up. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: The member is not trying to identify the source of funds. We set out at the beginning of this division all the sources of income for the Planning Commission. We then set out the things upon which that money will be spent. The member should look at where the money is coming from, and then what it will be spent on. Mr G. SNOOK: Is it correct that it will be the $54 million? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: Yes. Most of the land acquisitions will come from either the net appropriations or the metropolitan region improvement fund. If the acquisitions are in the metropolitan area, they will come from MRIF. Acquisitions in Peel or Bunbury will come from the consolidated fund. Dr J.M. WOOLLARD: I refer the minister to page 706 of the Budget Statements and to land-use planning and land- use implementation strategies. Can the minister outline the government’s position on height restrictions along the Swan River foreshore, particularly regarding the government’s consideration of introducing legislation to restrict height development along the foreshore; and, if so, where that might apply? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: The answer is no. This matter is determined primarily by individual town planning schemes. There are no plans to apply a policy to the foreshore. Clearly, what is appropriate at South Perth is different from what is appropriate at Burswood. It can be seen that the 20-storey development on Burswood peninsula has not met public angst. In other areas - Applecross, for example - such development would not be appropriate. The government has no proposal to have a uniform approach on the foreshore. Mr B.J. GRYLLS: I refer to asset management on page 709, which refers to the acquisition and disposal of properties. Under the heading “Reason for Significant Variation”, it reads - IFRS requirement to report gain/loss on disposal of assets on a net basis. Is it possible for members to have data on the purchase and sale of those parcels of land so they can keep an eye on what is happening with land acquisition and the sale of land acquired but not needed for regional open space or rail or road reserves? Is a list available for scrutiny? [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E35

Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: Can the member be more precise? A list of what? Mr B.J. GRYLLS: What is IFRS? That is the first question. Mr W. Ielati: The international financial accounting standards that have just been introduced. Mr B.J. GRYLLS: If the report is on the loss and gains of government assets acquired or sold in the acquisition-type process - Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: I think I know what the members means. I just need to clarify this matter with our personnel. The member asks whether this netting out occurs on individual properties, whereas I suspect it is netted out globally. We will ask the officers. Who is the expert on this matter? Mr W. Ielati: I think I understand the question. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: I want to clarify: the member wants to know whether the new standards refer to individual properties. Therefore, is it the net proceeds of property or the aggregation of what is spent to acquire the property and what is gained from the sale? Mr W. Ielati: It is the profit or loss on the disposal of property that is brought to account, not the purchase price or the selling price. Therefore, the new standards require that one reports the profit or loss on the individual transaction for the sale of the property. I think the question is whether the schedule applies to properties sold and the price involved. Certainly, the standards do not apply in that regard. It is just the aggregate and the difference between the sale price and the purchase price. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: What is the difference between the purchase price and sale price and profit and loss? Mr W. Ielati: Basically, it is the price in the books. Therefore, it refers to the historical cost for the property. If the property is sold above that cost, it becomes the profit for the sale. That would go into the operating statement as a profit. Mr B.J. GRYLLS: For example, if Mr Smith had his property resumed under the greater Bunbury regional scheme, and he agreed to undertake that process, but only half the property was needed for the public open space and some land was left that could be sold, would it be possible to get information for each of those individual transactions? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: It is important to understand that with regional open space and road reserves, the government only ever buys the entire property rather that half the property at the election of the landowner. For example, we do not need all the properties for stage 2 of the Albany ring road. However, a number of property owners indicated that they wanted us to buy whole properties. They required the government to buy all of their properties when the government did not want all of the properties; therefore, the suggestion that there is something improper about disposing of the rest of it at the best possible price is nonsensical. We only ever acquire more than we need at the election of the landowner. [2.50 pm] Mr B.J. GRYLLS: I agree with what the minister is saying. However, are those individual transactions open to scrutiny? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: I will ask the member for Merredin to put that question on notice. I want to be clear about exactly what information the member wants. It could be that in considering this question an enormous amount of work is required. If the member puts the question on notice, I will determine what information we can provide. Dr J.M. WOOLLARD: I refer the minister to the capital works program on page 711 of the Budget Statements, which deals with the acquisition of land under the metropolitan region scheme and the continuation of the Bush Forever project. Wireless Hill Park was meant to be listed as part of that project, although it does not need to be acquired. I am not sure what is involved in its becoming listed. What is the status of the listing of Wireless Hill Park? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: The money set aside for acquisition is set aside for the acquisition of privately owned property; we do not buy our own property. The Wireless Hill land is government owned; therefore, we will not buy it. Dr J.M. WOOLLARD: Further to that, several blocks in Perth are meant to be listed as part of the register, including Wireless Hill Park. What protocol is being followed? When is Wireless Hill Park likely to officially be put on the register? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: I gather that it is already on the register. We are now creating a metropolitan region scheme amendment that documents all the land that has been designated as Bush Forever. That has been released for public comment. We expect to finalise the report in the next couple of months. That will determine quite clearly and once and for all the Bush Forever land. It will also provide statutory protection for that land through that mechanism of the metropolitan region scheme amendment. The appropriation was recommended.

E36 [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005]

Division 39: Planning and Infrastructure - Services 1, 3, 4 - Mrs D.J. Guise, Chairman. Ms A.J.G. MacTiernan, Minister for Planning and Infrastructure. Mr G.S. Martin, Director General. Mr P. Frewer, Acting Deputy Director General. Mr A. Jamieson, Executive Director, Operations. Mr R. Kernahan, Director, Financial Planning. Mr W. Ielati, Acting Chief Finance Officer. Mr T.M. Hillyard, WAPC Manager, Land Asset Management. Mr R.D. Farrell, Principal Policy Officer, Office of the Minister for Planning and Infrastructure. Mr G. SNOOK: I refer the minister to page 645 of the Budget Statements, which refers to details of the administered transactions income. Will the minister explain why the figure for the sale of land in 2004-05 is approximately $45 million while the estimated actual for 2004-05 is approximately $176 million? Will the minister explain that huge variation? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: We have adopted this strategy to identify land that is available for disposal. We did much better than we thought we would in 2004-05; hence the reason for the larger figure. We were able to dispose of more land than we anticipated. The availability of surplus land for disposal is declining; hence the reduction in the figure over time. Mr G. SNOOK: Is the minister easily able to identify what made up the bulk of that land? Did it become available for a particular reason? What was the major component? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: I presume some of it was Fremantle eastern bypass land. I will make a schedule available for the member. Mr G. SNOOK: I will take up the minister’s offer. [Supplementary Information No A9.] Mr J.H.D. DAY: Following on from the previous question, I refer the minister to the second dot point under major initiatives on page 629 of the Budget Statements, which refers to a freight network strategy in the Fremantle area. Unfortunately, the minister deleted the Fremantle eastern bypass from the metropolitan region scheme, which the opposition and many in the planning profession and transport sector regard with a great deal of regret. Will the minister advise how many properties in total will be sold as a result of the deletion of the Fremantle eastern bypass from the MRS? How many have already been sold? What is the total amount expected to be realised as a result of those sales? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: I thought we would be able to provide that information. Unfortunately, we cannot. Part of the problem relates to the fact that the information is to be found across a number of agencies. In the past year, the WA Planning Commission sold $3.9 million worth of FEB land. Additional land will be sold by Main Roads. I will make sure that when the Main Roads representatives come in, the member can ask the question again. [3.00 pm] Mr J.H.D. DAY: How many properties does that $3.9 million relate to? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: I think I will provide this information by way of supplementary information. I apologise to the member; I was expecting that we would have a breakdown. I know that the figures have been prepared. I will see whether I can get them from the office during the next session and provide them to the member. However, my recollection is that some 111 properties - Mr J.H.D. DAY: Is that the total? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: The total value? Mr J.H.D. DAY: No; is the total number of properties 111? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: Yes, that is the total number in the various agencies. Obviously, I do not agree with the member that this move is regretted by the planning profession generally. There has been an enormous critique of the proposal to carve Fremantle in half with the eastern bypass. As I have said, the earliest that the opposition could build a road, should it win government in 2009, would be 2012, if the money were provided. We know that by 2015 the new outer harbour container terminal will be built. Therefore, the opposition would be putting that amount of money into a road project that would have a life of three years. It just does not make sense. Mr J.H.D. DAY: However, Fremantle inner port will still be operating at maximum capacity at that time. That will not go away. [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E37

Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: No; the load will definitely be shed. Anyway, the Labor Party has gone to four elections with this as a very clear and direct commitment. The deletion was approved, not just by the Labor Party, but also by the Parliament. The approval for the deletion went through the parliamentary process. The CHAIRMAN (Dr S.C. Thomas): Does the minister still wish to provide that supplementary information, or is that question now completed? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: I will attempt to get the information during the Main Roads session, so that it can be made available to the member. Mr D.A. TEMPLEMAN: I am interested in the significant issues and trends shown on page 621. I refer specifically to the first dot point, about economic and population growth. I am interested in knowing how Western Australia’s growth compares with the rates of the other key states, and also, from a regional perspective, how the regions contribute to our population and economic growth rates. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: Over the next 25 years our population is expected to grow by three-quarters of a million, as a conservative estimate. Our economy grew by 7.5 per cent in 2003-04, and we look like we are on target for around five per cent in the current financial year. Clearly, when the economy is strong - ours is the highest growth rate in Australia - we can expect to see more and more people coming to Western Australia. The last Australian Bureau of Statistics figures, produced in June 2004, showed that Queensland had 2.1 per cent population growth, which was a little higher than Western Australia’s 1.7 per cent. This 1.7 per cent is much higher than the Australian average of 1.2 per cent. When it is considered that our economy is growing at a faster rate than Queensland’s, it is quite possible that the next round of figures will show even greater growth in Western Australia. Interestingly, the fastest growing municipality in Australia is the City of Perth, and the second fastest growing municipality is the City of Mandurah. Mr D.A. TEMPLEMAN: Hear, hear! Its growth rate is much more than Bunbury’s, as I mentioned in the house the other day. Mr G.M. CASTRILLI: I acknowledge that. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: It is interesting that we have strong growth in both those areas. It shows the depth of the development that is occurring in Western Australia. Right in the heart of our metropolitan area we have very high growth rates, on the back of policies that the government has pushed for growth in the inner city. I know that the member for Mandurah does not like his area being confused with the metropolitan area, but one might argue that, on the fringe of the metropolitan area, we find the next highest growth rate. Although the member for Mandurah has said that his area is bigger than that of the member for Bunbury, they are very close. Bunbury and the south west are also growing very well. These things will be a challenge for the government, but they also create fantastic opportunities for bringing together resources to create Perth and Western Australia as very dynamic places. At the same time, and this is very important to that growth, I urge the opposition to reconsider its reckless opposition to the greater Bunbury region scheme. If we do not make the hard decisions in Peel and greater Bunbury to put in place a very sound planning framework to set aside regional open space for future generations, we will lose a great opportunity at this very critical time. Mr D.A. TEMPLEMAN: Related to that growth is the next dot point on the same page, which refers to the demographic of our growth rate, and the ageing population. There is also the issue of up to 20 per cent of the population having some form of disability. How will the changing age of our population impact on Western Australia’s growth rate, and what does the minister see the government doing to improve the situation? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: That is a very important point to make. Two things arise out of the increased disability rate and the increased ageing rate. The first is that we can anticipate that there will be a greater reliance on public transport over time. It is very important that we make those major investments in quality public transport, as the member is aware we are doing. Those who continue to want to give primacy to private road funding over public transport are showing a very short-sighted view. The idea that a project such as the Fremantle eastern bypass or Roe Highway stage 8 should be rated as more important projects than the extension of the rail service shows a lack of grasp of the situation. Mr J.H.D. DAY: They are separate issues. [3.10 pm] Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: It is a question of priorities. It is a question of grasping what we need to do to take this city and this state forward. The other interesting thing - I made this comment in a discussion I had with the Town of Cambridge the other night - is that we must recognise that people, for a much greater proportion of their lives, will not be directly responsible for rearing children. The period of a person’s life in which he or she might not want a detached house on a large block of land is likely to increase. It may well be that for 50 or 60 per cent of their lives people are not in child rearing mode. It means that we must face the challenge of ensuring there is a diversity of housing opportunities in the community. Although I understand that many people in the older leafier suburbs want to retain that quality and character and do not want to see units in their backyard, they must be prepared to seize the opportunity when it arises,

E38 [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] such as with the Perry Lakes development, to provide for some diversity of housing within their community. If they fail to do that, they are not doing their communities a favour. Those people who are now living on a quarter-acre block in Floreat raising two or three children may well want to stay within the community in the future but want some more appropriate scale of housing. It is very selfish and very short-sighted to insist that only one housing type be provided for within any one suburb. The CHAIRMAN: Can members keep further questions, if possible, directed to the same line item as the initial question? Can they also keep questions fairly short and succinct? Hopefully, the answers will be given in the same way. Dr J.M. WOOLLARD: Page 625 refers to changes in public transport usage. I am particularly interested in the initiatives on page 629 to provide a better public transport system through a public transport promotion program. I am interested in the dedicated bus lane that the government is planning to introduce along Canning Highway east of Riseley Street. Could the minister give more information about that dedicated bus lane and when the building of it is likely to commence? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: I have a whole host of information, which I do not necessarily have with me right at the moment. We will be introducing the bus lane during the period of construction of the New MetroRail project. We want to trial its performance with a view to having it extend beyond that time. We must do whatever we can to reduce the high level of car dependency and the level of greenhouse gas emissions. If we can encourage multiple usage of vehicles, it will give a better use of the roadways, so there will be better use of public investment and a reduction in greenhouse gas emissions. My understanding of what we propose is that we will be putting in place this high- occupancy lane during the construction phase and monitoring it. If it is successful, we will be looking at extending it beyond that period once the railway is operating. Dr J.M. WOOLLARD: Personally, I would like to see a dedicated bus lane right along the freeway from Canning Highway, but when is the minister thinking of introducing it along Canning Highway? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: This comes within the province of the Public Transport Authority. If that question could be put to me during that division, I will have more information available at that time. Dr J.M. WOOLLARD: Which division would that be? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: Division 41. Mr B.J. GRYLLS: On page 621, the delivery of services table shows the 2004-05 budget as $137 603 000 and the 2004-05 estimated actual as $149 064 000. Can the minister account for this variation? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: It is the variation from the budget to the estimated actual. There are two major items. There was the extra $9 million cost of the transport executive and licensing information system to strengthen the licensing system. Mr B.J. GRYLLS: It was over budget? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: The $9 million was given for more staff. Unfortunately, one of the very real problems that has occurred since 1994 is that when licensing was moved out of the Police Service to the transport division of the Department for Planning and Infrastructure, it was never put on a proper cost-recovery basis. We have been seeking to get that properly funded and established. I think that we are pretty much there now. The $9 million was to provide additional staffing for the call centres and for licensing generally. There have also been salary increases of between 3.4 per cent and 3.7 per cent. Those salary increases were above those which had been estimated. Mr B.J. GRYLLS: Could the minister give us some understanding of how it happens? Obviously there is a set number of staff and an understanding of what salary growth will be. If it is a couple of million dollars, it is a couple of million dollars over every department, which obviously ends up being quite a lot. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: We have had an increase in personnel. Because of the growth in the number and range of activities within the department, we sought extra funding for planning personnel to enable us to clear the enormous growth in the work that was being undertaken by the department. We have had extra allocations of money for additional planning staff to help deal with the very high level of activity. There cannot be high levels of activity without the expectation that new personnel will be needed. It became evident to us during the year that we needed to put on additional personnel. We got additional budget allocations for that. Mr G.M. CASTRILLI: The eighth dot point on page 622 states that Western Australia’s air service policies must achieve a balance between promoting sustainable competition and ensuring that services to regional and remote communities are maintained. That might be looked at in conjunction with the sixth dot point of the major initiatives on page 629, which is to implement the interstate air services regulatory regime. Could the minister give a bit of an overview of what that is? For example, does the minister foreshadow any changes? What are her ideas? [3.20 pm] Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: This is an important issue. The Western Australian Transport Co-ordination Act has provided the capacity to regulate, basically since the 1960s, but as a practical matter it was not necessary to do that, [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E39 because we had a major provider in Skywest as a subsidiary of Ansett, and before that MMA, providing these services. There was not the need to regulate. The collapse of Ansett and the temporary collapse of Skywest, together with the impact on air travel of the events of September 11, resulted in a crisis. The cessation of Skywest’s operation caused enormous devastation to tourism, industries and communities, and made accessing health and education services very difficult. The government made an early decision that to get Skywest up and operating again, it would use its regulatory powers to give Skywest a monopoly on the routes it was already operating on. The administrator and others would then have the confidence to get the company operating again. Some of the world’s most senior aviation advisers provided a report on which routes would be capable of sustaining competition. The basic finding was that, because of the long, thin routes in Western Australia, the relatively small number of people who travel and the long distances between the routes, many of the turboprop routes - that is, the traditional Skywest routes - were incapable of sustaining competition. The yardstick is that companies that have fewer than 50 000 passenger boardings a year are not capable of sustaining competition. The government put out various lines to tender in small ways. Skywest had its monopoly extended for a period but it was told that all the lines would eventually have to go to tender and that it could not have a monopoly. We gave the company leeway so it could prepare itself. Fairness indicates that we must go to tender. That is the process that is under way. The government will need to assess the tenders and make a decision on the various routes that are required. We intended to make sure that there was a network approach rather than the tendering of single routes to prevent cherry picking. After much work with local authorities and development commissions etc, the government has come up with two networks: a coastal network and an inland network. They have both gone to tender separately. The government is hoping for a decision to be made in the next few months about who are the successful tenderers. Mr G.M. CASTRILLI: Will that be in the next few months? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: That is right. We want them awarded by August or September so operations can begin in December. Mr G.M. CASTRILLI: What about the length of the contracts? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: My understanding is that they are up to five years with a review at three years. Mr G.M. CASTRILLI: Under the details of controlled grants and subsidies at page 644, does the aviation subsidies line item have any relationship to what we have just been talking about? The 2004-05 estimated actual is $1.25 million and the 2005-06 budget estimate is $852 000. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: No, not really. By and large, the routes going out to tender are not subsidised. The subsidies are generally in the north of the state. Examples are routes to Derby and triangulated services between Derby, Broome, Port Hedland and, more importantly, routes to Fitzroy Crossing and Halls Creek. The subsidised services are done on a different basis. The reason for the decrease is twofold: in order to attract Emirates to Western Australia the government underwrote it for a certain period. The government no longer needs to underwrite the company because it has been a successful venture. In addition, the Meekatharra-Wiluna-Perth route no longer needs to be subsidised. Mr G.M. CASTRILLI: Is that what the reduction is in those two items? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: Yes. Mr G.M. CASTRILLI: I thank the minister. Mr G. SNOOK: I draw the intention of the minister to two items at page 636. They are interrelated and the subject of my question. I refer to the Coral Bay access road and boat-launching facility at a total cost of $5.22 million. Expenditure has gone out over the past few years. This year’s estimated expenditure is $4.798 million. I also refer to the upgrade of the boat-launching facilities at the Ningaloo Marine Park near Exmouth at $1 million. Are the projects cost-shared with industry and local government? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: No. Coral Bay is not because it is fully funded by the state government. Quite frankly, it would be a bit rich for a small shire like Carnarvon. Coral Bay services the entire state; it has enormous tourism numbers. It is not within the financial means of the council to do that. Mr G. SNOOK: The minister’s department has had a lot of partnerships with these types of projects, specifically the Cervantes jetty and other boat-launching facilities along the west coast in which money was made available only if there were cost-sharing arrangements with local authorities, no matter how big or small. There is no consistency. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: This is a very different scale of enterprise altogether. The government has continued the recreational boating schemes, which involve joint funding arrangements. Coral Bay is a major tourism icon in the state. The government has made it very clear that it accepts responsibility for getting it sorted. For decades it has been left to rot; there was no sewerage or water and there were no boating facilities. The government has said that enough is enough. The government is not going to allow the situation to continue. It has become an important priority to get things done. What distinguishes this is that, by and large, the area is not for locals. The area is for the tens of thousands of tourists who visit Coral Bay each year. Does the member oppose the government doing this? Mr G. SNOOK: No. My question concerns consistency on an equity base in which industry participates. Is the minister aware that the fishing industry operates out of Coral Bay?

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Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: I am aware that a fishing industry functions out of Coral Bay. However, it is primarily a recreational boat facility. That is what it is designed as; it is not designed for a fishing fleet. It is designed for recreational boat users. During peak periods, between 80 and 90 boats are launched each day from the beach. That is creating problems for the coral and problems with safety at a beach where people are swimming. It is fundamentally a recreational boat-launching facility. Mr G. SNOOK: It is comparable with others up and down the coast. [3.30 pm] Mr J.H.D. DAY: I refer to the fourth significant issue and trend on page 621. It is a general link to the issue of an overall transport strategy for the state. The last overall transport strategy of which I am aware was Transform WA, which was released in 1998 or thereabouts by the previous government. Is any work being done on a comprehensive transport strategy for the state? If so, when will it be available. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: Yes, that work is being done. There is a particularly urgent need to do this as we battle with the federal government to get anything like a fair share of transport funding. We are keen to show a composite plan that brings together road, rail and shipping. It is quite extraordinary that the roads linking Perth to Geraldton and Geraldton to Karratha are not included in the national transport plan, notwithstanding the incredible significance of Geraldton being the nation’s second busiest grain port and Dampier being the centre not only for much of the iron ore industry but also of the oil and gas industries. We feel the need to get this up and running to enable the integration of all of those modes of transport and better land-use planning and to strengthen our case for AusLink funding. Mr J.H.D. DAY: I asked when that would be available. Is the minister prepared to table a copy of a draft? What major changes are proposed in this strategy compared with what has been in place in the past 15 or 20 years? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: A couple of things have changed since the member for Darling Range was a minister: there is much more focus on the integration of the different modes of transport and on the integration of land use and transport, and consideration of the logistical issues. Rather than drawing lines on the map, we must give thought to the logistics of moving products from A to B and proper planning of intermodal facilities at strategic points. Obviously much of this work has been done for the metropolitan area, but that must be expanded into a statewide project. Mr J.H.D. DAY: Of course. For the third time, when will that be available, particularly given that the government has been in office for four and a half years? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: We have been doing many things. We cannot make up for the eight years of neglect overnight; nonetheless, we hope that the strategy will be completed some time next year. Mr J.H.D. DAY: That means it might be 18 months away. Mr D.A. TEMPLEMAN: I refer to the fourth dash point on page 627 under “Transport planning”; it refers to the TravelSmart initiative. What progress is being made with this initiative, bearing in mind my eagerness to have it extended to Mandurah at some stage? Mr J.H.D. DAY: I thought this issue should come under public transport, although I do not object to it being raised now. I have some questions on TravelSmart also. The CHAIRMAN: The minister can answer any question she wishes. If she wants to answer the question, I am inclined to allow that. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: TravelSmart is very much under the Department for Planning and Infrastructure. The Public Transport Authority is a service provider; the Department for Planning and Infrastructure plans for transport. This project has traditionally come within the DPI transport planning area. It is an individualised marketing program aimed at encouraging increased public transport use, not through the traditional method of advertising, but by going into homes and talking to people. It is an individualised program that aims to get people to increase the amount of walking and cycling they do and the public transport they use and, thereby, to decrease their car dependency. It was first started under the coalition government when it undertook a very successful trial of it in South Perth. It then dropped off the agenda, but when we came into government we were committed to picking it up and we have been funding it across the metropolitan area. It has been offered to 168 000 residents since the first demonstration project. It is delivering a sustained 10 per cent reduction in car trips. The process involves a partnership with local government, which provides a very modest contribution. By and large, the funds come from the state government. There has been no shortage of local authorities wanting to be involved. We made sure that it was trialed across the metropolitan area. At the beginning it was the preserve of the leafy greens, but we have taken it out into places such as Mirrabooka and Armadale. Ms J.A. RADISICH: Armadale is leafy green. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: Yes, it is beautiful and green. An opposition member interjected. [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E41

The CHAIRMAN: Order, members. Minister. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: I think members opposite are jealous of my 10 per cent swing in the primary votes and they cannot work it out. How do they work it out? The CHAIRMAN: Let us keep to the question, please. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: There is no confusion among the people I represent about who is bringing home the bacon for them. They know they have a member who works exceptionally hard on their behalf. However, there are a few people around who do not have much claim for their capacity to deliver so they must focus on - The CHAIRMAN: Let us return to the question. The problem with interjections on both sides is that we tend to get sidetracked. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: This coming year the TravelSmart process will target an additional 56 000 people, and in 2006-07 further moneys will be allocated. We are trying to get some money out of the commonwealth government. The irony is that we have not been able to get commonwealth funding for this even though this state started it. The commonwealth government has funded every other state to introduce TravelSmart. That is another extraordinary example of how Western Australia is given a raw deal by the federal government. It is a good project. We are focusing on areas that will benefit from the rail extensions to ensure that we get the best use out of that public investment. The CHAIRMAN: The committee has been in session for an hour. Would the committee like a five-minute comfort stop at this time? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: I suggest, Mr Chairman, that we break at 10 to four before the next section is considered. [3.40 pm] Ms J.A. RADISICH: I refer to page 628. One of the major achievements for 2004-05 was the fuel cell bus trial that commenced in 2005. Can the minister give us a status report on the success, or otherwise, of that trial, and perhaps a summary of what happened at the fuel cell conference, which is also mentioned? I am also keen to know what routes the eco bus took during the trial. Did the bus go just around the inner-city suburbs or did it traipse around all the suburbs to give people a look and feel of what it is like? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: I thank the member for the question. The bus was actually out the front of Parliament House today, because we were celebrating with the team that is responsible for this fabulous initiative the award that the government received on Saturday night in Adelaide from the Banksia Foundation, which apparently is the deliverer of the most prestigious environmental awards. The Western Australian government received the award for the government leading by example in environmental leadership in education and training. This award was given in recognition of what we have been doing as a participant in the hydrogen bus trial. It was very pleasing that that innovative work has been acknowledged. We are putting in some $10 million to participate in this trial, which is being led by DaimlerChrysler Australia. We are the only city in the Southern Hemisphere that is engaged in such a trial. It has been very successful. In the past six months we have ferried around 60 000 passengers. The bus has been in operation for about 3 000 hours and has been running very well. There have been a couple of problems with the refuelling station, but the technology in the bus has been excellent. This trial will run until September 2006. It is part of an 11-city trial. We are hopeful that this will help DaimlerChrysler and any other bus manufacturer take this to the stage of commercial operation. The routes have been largely in the northern suburbs, because we have only three buses, and we wanted them all to operate out of the same refuelling point. Ms J.A. RADISICH: Would any of them venture east at any point? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: North east, perhaps. When the Public Transport Authority people are here, we will be able to find out exactly the range of these buses. The buses are operating from the Malaga depot, which is run by Path Transit. Mr G.M. CASTRILLI: I refer to page 623, major policy decisions, the liquefied petroleum gas subsidy scheme. The estimated expenditure for that scheme in both 2005-06 and 2006-07 is $1.2 million. However, it appears that from 2007-08 onwards the subsidy will no longer be available. Is that correct; and, if so, why? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: We have not made any decision on this matter. I am very keen for us to continue with this work. However, in the very short time between the election and when the budget had to be signed off in April, it was not possible to get every project fully investigated into the future. That certainly is a decision that we will need to review next year. LPG subsidies are one of the important steps. We note with interest that the growing use of fuels such as liquefied natural gas in large freight transport is being promoted within the road transport industry. We want to provide assistance to the road transport industry to embrace LNG, and we are looking at some concessions to assist the industry go down that path. As I have said, because of the short time frame between the election and when the budget had to be signed off, we have not been able to complete that work, but we will be working on developing a more comprehensive strategy over the next year.

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Mr B.J. GRYLLS: I refer to page 633. The first dot point under major achievements for 2004-05 refers to the 97 pastoral lessees who were notified that some of their land was proposed to be excluded from the lease renewals in 2015. Can the minister outline how many of these negotiations have yet to be completed; and is it possible to get the details of those negotiations? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: It is now all over. Under legislation devised by the previous government, 7 December 2004 was the final date. All the negotiations have been completed. Mr B.J. GRYLLS: So in 2015 those leaseholders who did not negotiate changes will be - Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: There was only one. Mr B.J. GRYLLS: Was that Ningaloo? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: Yes. I think there was difficulty among the personnel there. There are a variety of owners, and they do not always have the same aspirations as each other. Mr B.J. GRYLLS: Will their lease not be renewed in 2015? What does the minister envisage will happen in 2015, given that of the 97 leaseholders, only one did not sign off? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: We made every possible endeavour to communicate to the owners, on almost a weekly basis towards the end, that this was a serious matter. We had people go and visit them. We took every possible step that could have been taken to reach a negotiated outcome. However, we cannot force people’s hand. It was a decision that they made, absolutely 100 per cent aware of what the consequence of not acting would be. I know the amount of time personally spent by people in my office, by people in the Ningaloo sustainable development office and by people in the Pastoral Lands Board to work with these owners to make absolutely certain that they were fully cognisant of what the impact would be. However, for reasons known only to themselves, they decided not to take any action. Mr B.J. GRYLLS: Does that mean that some of the tourism nodes that are planned for that site will begin before 2015, or does that mean that nothing can happen on that land until the end of the lease in 2015? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: I am sure it is always possible to have further discussions and negotiations, even though they will be about different things. At the moment we are focusing on the many people who want to progress with their development nodes. The pastoralists are very enthusiastic about developing their opportunities. The Aboriginal community at Cardabia is very interested. Tim Meecham at Quobba station is also working very hard on this matter. They are all going out with guns blazing to get their developments up and running. At the moment we have more than enough opportunities to focus on. I do not think we need to move forward with any great speed on those Ningaloo areas. [3.50 pm] Mr S.R. HILL: I refer the minister to page 629 of the Budget Statements. One of my hobbies is personal watercraft, and I inquire how the compulsory training for watercraft users has been going as a major achievement for 2004-05? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: I was intrigued the other day to see that a band has been formed called New Rules for Boats. Maybe the member for Swan Hills knows something about them. I thought, “Here we are: our legislation is developing a cult status to the extent that bands are being named after it!” Mr B.J. GRYLLS: That is assuming that they are complimentary. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: I am not necessarily assuming that at all. We had The Dead Kennedys, The Whitlams and, now, New Rules for Boats. I do not make that assumption at all. Mr B.J. GRYLLS: We do not want to hear the chorus! Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: Some of us are not obsessed with the sheer popularity stakes; some of us are more interested in delivering than being loved. Mr B.J. GRYLLS: The minister is definitely delivering on that! The CHAIRMAN (Dr S.C. Thomas): I ask members to return to the budget. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: I point to my vote at the last election. I may not get many votes from the opposition, but I got votes out in my electorate, where it counts. The CHAIRMAN: Let us move on, members. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: The very popular member for Darling Range - himself a cult figure - is interjecting madly. The CHAIRMAN: Can we address the question, please members? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: The government has made the decision that it wants to proceed by way of regulation with these new provisions, which will be phased in over a number of years. I hope to be in a position in August to give more detail about these regulations. Work is being done on the detail. The fundamental principle is that this will be not a licensing regime, but a requirement that people operating powered vessels undertake some minimum standard of [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E43 training. The provisions will include a grandfather clause so that people who have been registered boat owners for five years or more will only participate in a theoretical test rather than undertake the practical training. Many boat owners have already done the training as many yacht clubs and other boating clubs have run training courses for a number of years. Mr S.R. HILL: I pick up on personal watercraft users. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: The final shape of this regime is still to be determined. At this point, the government is certainly looking at the inclusion of personal watercraft users in this regime. These craft travel at considerable speeds and with great noise along rivers, much to the chagrin of all other users of the waterways. I realise that the member for Geraldton is not likely to agree with me about the merits of personalised watercraft in built-up areas. Mr G. SNOOK: I direct the minister’s attention to the fourth dot point under major initiatives on page 632, which reads - Review and plan the licensing and vehicle inspections facilities required to meet current and future demand for licensing services. In line with the minister’s aim for Western Australia to be consistent with other states in as many areas as possible, will WA be heading in the direction of the eastern states and requiring drivers to put their cars over the pits on an annual basis? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: I now have a Minister Assisting the Minister for Planning and Infrastructure who will deal with the estimate committee hearings on Friday; he has responsibility for this licensing service. That procedure regarding Friday’s hearings was announced at the beginning of this estimates committee session, but it was not repeated at the beginning of this division. However, the licensing output is being handled by Minister Logan. Mr J.H.D. DAY: I have two questions relating to the third dot point at the top of page 635 of the Budget Statements in relation to road transport needs in the Peel region. Will the construction of the southern extension to Kwinana Freeway and the Peel deviation commence in 2006? That is important, not only because the road is very much needed, but also because $20 million of federal government funding depends upon that starting schedule. Second, will there be a dedicated link from the southern extension of the Kwinana Freeway into Mandurah, or will there be a requirement for motorists leaving the southern extension of the freeway to use the existing road to Mandurah? I understand that this a matter of some concern to residents of the Mandurah area. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: Yes. In relation to the last part of the member’s question, the government has approved an additional $10 million for associated road connections to Mandurah. We are working through the detail - Mr J.H.D. DAY: Will that be along a new alignment or will it follow an existing road? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: That work is still being done. Mr J.H.D. DAY: The minister would be aware that it is a matter of some tension in Mandurah. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: It is an issue. Mr J.H.D. DAY: The minister has not made a decision as yet. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: The scoping work is being done now. Mr J.H.D. DAY: When does the minister expect to have a decision on that matter? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: We will certainly have a decision, I imagine, in the next three to four months. Obviously, we will make a request for proposals over that period. We will need a good idea about how we propose to build those linkages at that stage. In relation to the first part of the question, as I have told this chamber time and again - I will tell the member it again - building a road of the scale of the Peel deviation is a massive project. A decision cannot be made one day to build the road, and one cannot fill up a wheelbarrow with tar and lay the road the next day. Mr J.H.D. DAY: Believe it or not, we understand all of that - Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: I do not know whether the member does understand it. Mr J.H.D. DAY: I certainly do. It is now halfway through 2005. Surely the minister can give an indication with a reasonable degree of certainty about whether construction will start by the end of 2006. It is only 18 months away. The CHAIRMAN: Was that a further question? Mr J.H.D. DAY: Yes, it was. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: As I have explained, the government started in 2001 to make representations to the federal government to explain to it, because it does not build roads, that this will be a huge project and will require a number of years lead time. Also, a long-term forward provision will be needed for the funding of this road and -

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Mr J.H.D. DAY: That is all history. I understand that. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: I do not intend to answer the question. I have attempted to do so on several occasions but the member has kept interrupting me. Several members interjected. The CHAIRMAN: Order, members! The member for Alfred Cove has the call. Mr J.H.D. DAY: The minister did not answer that question! The CHAIRMAN: Order! Dr J.M. WOOLLARD: Page 627 refers to transport system planning and regulations. Are there guidelines or a policy I could be provided with in relation to deceleration lanes or slip lanes? I am interested in the deceleration or slip lanes because a planning scheme amendment is now on the table to increase the length of deceleration lanes, which I believe will be a safety issue for several of my constituents. The CHAIRMAN: Can the member indicate to where in the budget she refers? Dr J.M. WOOLLARD: I refer to page 625, which mentions the safety of the transport system, and page 627, which is refers to transport system planning and regulation. I seek the guidelines or the government’s policy on slip lanes, because they are a safety issue. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: What area is the member talking about? Dr J.M. WOOLLARD: I am referring to Canning Highway as it approaches North Lake Road. Currently a slip lane in front of Red Rooster extends around to the left. The government is planning to resume extra land to increase that slip lane. However, some of my constituents who live adjacent to Canning Highway will have great difficulty getting out of their driveways. What guidelines or policy is the government using, because the safety requirements of those people have not been taken into consideration? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: Perhaps the member can ask that question during the Main Roads Western Australia division, because that is a matter of detailed engineering and design. The Department for Planning and Infrastructure is responsible for the broad strategic planning of transport. Detailed operational standards fall within the purview of Main Roads. Hopefully someone from Main Roads will be able to assist the member for Alfred Cove with her question. The appropriation was recommended. Meeting suspended from 4.00 pm to 4.16 pm Division 40: Commissioner of Main Roads, $658 483 000 - Mrs D.J. Guise, Chairman. Ms A.J.G. MacTiernan, Minister for Planning and Infrastructure. Mr M. Henneveld, Commissioner, Main Roads Western Australia. Mr M.G. Cosson, Acting Manager, Budget and Program Management. Mr G.J. Norwell, Executive Director, Technology and Environment. Mr P. Woronzow, Acting Executive Director, Finance and Services. Mr T.J. Barry, Budget Manager. Mr D. Snook, Executive Director, Road Network Services. Mr G.S. Martin, Director General, Department for Planning and Infrastructure. Mr R.D. Farrell, Principal Policy Officer, Office of the Minister for Planning and Infrastructure. Mr S.E. Potter, Senior Policy Officer, Office of the Minister for Planning and Infrastructure. Mr J.H.D. DAY: I am merely making an observation, and I do not mean to make any adverse comment about the individuals, but I find it very unusual - in fact I have never come across it previously - that members of a minister’s personal staff are seated in the chamber in the way that appears to be happening at the moment. As I have said, I make no adverse observations about the individuals involved, but it is to me a very unusual and new practice. The CHAIRMAN: I think we will just move on to the questions. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: This is the fifth estimates committee in which I have had staff from my office in the chamber. Mr B.J. GRYLLS: I refer to page 18 of the printed version of the Treasurer’s budget speech, where it states that $302 million is allocated to improving and expanding state and local road networks, and more than $108 million will be [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E45 spent in regional Western Australia. In question time last week the member for Avon asked about this figure of $108 million and the minister said that that figure was incorrect, and the real figure was closer to $170 million. Can the minister explain whether the Treasurer, or the method of calculation, was wrong, so that we can ascertain the actual figure? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: Can the member tell me exactly what the Treasurer said? Mr B.J. GRYLLS: On page 18, it states - . . . more than $108 million will be spent in regional Western Australia. It then goes on to list the major projects. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: He is correct; more than $108 million will be spent. On our calculations - Mr B.J. GRYLLS: Can the minister refer me to the page in the budget on which I can read that information? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: The amount spent on rural roads is not in the budget as a separate figure. However the figures show that 63.7 per cent will be spent on country roads, when considering all the programs, including the maintenance. I think we need to look at the non-maintenance items. [4.20 pm] Mr B.J. GRYLLS: The minister is not getting an abacus out, which is what she asked the member for Avon to do. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: I am sorry. These figures were provided the other day. About $150 million is for capital works for rural areas. I will provide the member with supplementary information on that. I might ask if that figure could be got for me. We have had that figure developed in the past. The CHAIRMAN: Does the minister intend to wait for that? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: Perhaps I might go through it here. The total expenditure is $191 million for the rural areas and $135 million for the metropolitan area, which comes to a total of $327 million, of which $5 million is for buildings and equipment, so we will take that out. We have a figure for what we call over-programming. We started a policy last year of programming more than we had expenditure for, so we could expend all the money that was allocated. The traditional problem that Main Roads has had for a decade or more is that it never spends the amount that it has been allocated. That is because of the program nature of the budget. We have started to over-allocate projects, so that we can get projects up and running, because some of them will invariably run late. That means that this year, for example, for the first time we have come very close to seeing actual expenditure being virtually the same as approved expenditure. Normally there is a big shortfall. Main Roads has recognised that we must do something about it. In total, we have allocated or approved in the budget $322 million-worth of projects, although the figure appears as $301 million because that is based on the calculation that we will get only $301 million worth of projects delivered. That is based on the historic experience of over a decade of performance versus approved expenditure. Mr B.J. GRYLLS: Of that $301 million, what will be spent on regional roads? The Treasurer has said it will be $108 million - Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: He said that it would be “more than”, and we are saying that the sums are that $191 million has been approved for rural expenditure. Mr B.J. GRYLLS: There is $191 million and $155 million. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: If we include all the different parts of the project, it will result in expenditure of $191 million. I am happy to itemise it for the member. The figure for the great southern is $17.5 million; for the south west, $30.2 million; for the Gascoyne, $9.5 million; for the mid west, $10.8 million; for the goldfields-Esperance region, $39.3 million; for the Kimberley, $10.7 million; for the wheatbelt south, $12 million; for the wheatbelt north, $42 million; and for the Pilbara, $19 million. Mr B.J. GRYLLS: Is that what the minister will provide by way of supplementary information? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: I have just provided the member with that information. Mr B.J. GRYLLS: There will be no more on top of that? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: Perhaps the member will tell me what he wants. Mr B.J. GRYLLS: Does it add up to the $170 million? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: It adds up to $191 million. Mr B.J. GRYLLS: The other figure the minister gave was $155 million for the metropolitan area. Is that right? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: It was $135 million. Mr J.H.D. DAY: I have a couple of questions relating to “Service 6: Road Infrastructure for State Development” and the overall capital works budget set out on page 659. It shows a reduction of approximately $70 million, from

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$164 million to $95 million, in the amount of funding for the expansion of the state’s road infrastructure network. There is also a reduction in the overall capital works budget from $368 million to $302 million, or a reduction in total of $66 million. These figures are set out in the middle of the page. The minister can refer to the appropriation for the delivery of service or the net cost of service. Whichever figures the minister takes show a substantial reduction. Can we have an explanation of that? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: That is the appropriation of the service. Mr J.H.D. DAY: The net cost of the service is just above that line. A lot fewer funds are available and there is a reduction of probably $60 million. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: I think the mistake can be made - I think the member for Merredin may have made it in the past - of just looking at that service 6 in isolation, because there is a fine judgment at times of which road goes into which particular category; for example, the roads of some very significant projects are included not in state development but in community access. If the member looks at service 4 or service 5, for example, he will see that the sums have increased. It is a question of how one determines and classifies a road and what is the particular composition of roads. For example, it was decided that the Tom Price road would be put into the community service category. The other reason that particular one has fallen off is the reduction in commonwealth funds that are available, because that has tended to be the area into which commonwealth funds have gone. Because there has been a substantial decline in commonwealth funds, there has been a decline in funding in that particular category. Mr J.H.D. DAY: I understand that and I thank the minister for explaining it, but I make the observation that the capital works budget is down substantially as well. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: The best overview is given on the front page, which is page 647. That shows where we are moving. In the 2004-05 budget there was $670 million and in this budget there is $658 million. It then builds up to $675 million and $723 million. It is true that funding for this year has gone down. I will say two things about that. It is partly because we are coming to the end of some very large projects and we are building up to some more very large projects; to some extent that is the reason the figures are coming down. Projects like Tonkin Highway and the Geraldton southern transport corridor are finishing, and we are starting on projects such as the Peel deviation. That $658 million will be a slight underestimate of what we have allocated, because although it is not reflected in these budget figures, we have made a cabinet decision that all the money generated from the land sales by Main Roads of its Fremantle eastern bypass land will go back into the road projects. There should be another $8 million that would be spent. The $658.483 million will be augmented by an additional $8 million this year. It will be spent on roads. In reality, the figure should read closer to $665 million. [4.30 pm] Mr J.H.D. DAY: The specific issue I want to raise concerns the last dot point on page 661, which refers to the Kwinana Freeway extension and the Peel deviation. Will the minister advise how much is allocated in each of the out years? The Treasurer’s speech indicated there was $4 million in 2005-6. What has been allocated in the following three years? Half an hour ago, during the other division, the minister stated that she would not make any commitment to start the construction of the project by the end of 2006. However, the dot point states that construction will begin in 2007. Maybe that is the answer to the question. Does the minister stand by the information presented at page 661 of the Budget Statements? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: During the last division I attempted to answer this question on three occasions but was stopped from continuing by the member asking the question. I am keen to get on the record again the reason the government is saying it will be 2007. As I said before, in 2001 the government was very conscious that it was a huge project beyond the capacity of the state to deliver without federal help. The state government was also very conscious that the federal government had committed its funding for the next four to five years, that this project would represent a big slice out of its budget and that it would need to do a lot of forward planning. From 2001 to 2003 the government tried to get a commitment from the federal government well in advance - Mr J.H.D. DAY: It is all on the record. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: Yes, and it is going on the record again because the member keeps asking. Every time he asks I will give him the answer! The member for Darling Range does not want to hear the answer. Mr J. H.D. DAY: It is already in Hansard. The CHAIRMAN: Order, the minister is answering the question. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: Finally, in July 2004, the federal government came out with its commitment. It was less than half the estimated cost of the project. Some four months later the federal government said that it would give the additional $20 million to make the figure up to half the cost if the project started by 2006. It was nothing but the most blatant politicking. I advised the federal government in May 2004 and set out chapter and verse the reasons it would be unlikely the state government could start the road project before the beginning of 2007. It was because of the sheer scale of the project, the approvals needed, and the land acquisitions. Notwithstanding that the federal government had been advised of that, it attached a ridiculous and childish condition. We had already said that if we could start the [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E47 project by December 2006, we would, but that it could not be guaranteed. If the member for Darling Range does not want to hear the answer, he should remember that I have said this time and again in the house. I will say it again. If we can start it in 2006, we will. However, it is unrealistic of the federal government to believe that we can guarantee that. We guaranteed to do what we have said, which is to start the project in 2007. Mr J.H.D. DAY: I asked how much was allocated in each of the out years. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: The member asked a number of things. If he asks one question at a time, he will get one answer at a time. In 2006-07, $30 million is allocated; in 2007-08, $100 million is allocated; in 2008-09, $115 million is allocated; in 2009-10, $80 million is allocated; and in 2010-11, $14.7 million is allocated. Mr J.H.D. DAY: The minister could have saved herself a lot of pain and answered that 10 minutes ago. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: Thank you, Mr Charisma. Mr G.M. CASTRILLI: I refer to the details of controlled grants and subsidies at page 669. Although I am happy to take this as supplementary information, is the minister able to provide a breakdown of the state road funding grants for the local government road network in capital and recurrent budgets for 2005-06? I note that local government requested $93 million as the appropriate level to assist with funding. However, it received only $85 million. Is the minister able to provide an explanation? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: Absolutely. Local government wants lots of things. We want lots of things from the federal government! We have to make a determination about what we consider to be a reasonable level of funding. As part of the new state and local governments agreement, we have said that we are prepared to lock in a 27 per cent return to local government of all motor vehicle registration fees. That will give local government a guaranteed growth income. Under the previous agreement, particularly with the previous government, a substantial proportion of the allocation to local government consisted of state government initiatives rather than local government initiatives. Although we are still discussing the final quantum, we have agreed to reduce that. In some years, up to 49 per cent of the expenditure represented state government initiatives. We have agreed to provide a cap on that. It will provide greater certainty to local government about the project that is particularly dear to its heart, which is regional road group funding. Since the 2000 agreement, there has been a very significant change in the funding landscape. A great deal of money now goes directly to local government from the federal government. The amount of money local government is getting for its roads greatly exceeds what it did previously. The state government believes that it is a good outcome for local government. It locks it into a growth revenue. The estimate is $84 million this year, $87 million next year, $91 million the year after and $96 million the year after that. Mr G.M. CASTRILLI: I understand the minister’s explanation. Local government received $8 million less than it requested. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: It is the estimate. The state government will guarantee local government 27 per cent of motor vehicle registration fees. If, for example, the fund is greater, there will be a case to argue for more money. Mr G.M. CASTRILLI: That is the point of my question. The figures for the out years reflect - Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: They will be revised. If registrations go up, the figures will go up. Mr G.M. CASTRILLI: Do those figures reflect what the government anticipates in receipts? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: Correct. Mr G.M. CASTRILLI: Does the minister agree to provide the list of grants in recurrent and capital budgets by way of supplementary information? [4.40 pm] Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: We can provide for 2005-06 technical support, direct grants, road project grants and the various other categories. [Supplementary Information No A10.] Dr J.M. WOOLLARD: My question refers to road-use efficiency improvements on page 652. Does Main Roads use guidelines when it creates a deceleration lane or increases the length of a deceleration lane. A scheme amendment is proposed for my area, and the residents there are concerned that it will cause a safety problem at the junction of North Lake Road and Canning Highway. There is a fast-food outlet on the corner and houses along that road. Mr D. Snook: The guidelines used to set the length of deceleration lanes are based on national standards. Those guidelines are found in the “AUST ROADS Guide to Traffic Engineering Practice”. The length of the deceleration lanes are chosen so that vehicles coming from the main through road have sufficient time to turn off into the deceleration lane and slow down safely before making a turn. Dr J.M. WOOLLARD: Are there any guidelines for creating or extending deceleration lanes where traffic enters the deceleration lane? Several property owners believe they will have safety problems if they have to drive out of their driveways into that proposed lane.

E48 [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005]

Mr D. Snook: The guidelines are set for urban areas in general. The road designer is expected to deal with particular locations on a site-by-site basis where driveways enter the proposed deceleration lane. Dr J.M. WOOLLARD: Is it possible to meet with an officer at that address so that he can discuss that issue with those constituents who believe extending the deceleration lane will create problems for them? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: I am sure Mr Snook will agree to either he or one of his staff meeting with the member to discuss that. Ms J.A. RADISICH: I refer to the second major initiative on page 653 and the fourth major initiative on page 661 concerning Great Eastern Highway. The reference on page 653 is to a range of work that will be undertaken in 2005-06 and the reference on page 661 is to work in progress that will continue until March 2006. I congratulate all those involved on achieving those much-needed upgrades and renewals on Great Eastern Highway. I am particularly interested in the section of Great Eastern Highway between Greenmount and Mundaring which is a treacherous stretch of road and which desperately needs funding. I note that no funding is shown for that in this budget. However, before we can work together with the local governments and seek funding from the federal government for this important six- kilometre stretch, we need proof of the urgency of the work. I understand that in 2004 a road safety audit was undertaken on that stretch of road. In the past nine months I have not been able to source that document. My office has tried to find it on a number of occasions. Can the minister provide me with that road safety audit as supplementary information so that we can progress the additional works to Great Eastern Highway? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: Is Mr Snook aware of the audit? Mr D. Snook: A road safety audit was undertaken for that section of the highway between Greenmount and Mundaring. The idea behind the audit was to consider ways to improve the safety of the road. Some members of the public sought to increase the speed limit there from 80 to 90 kilometres an hour. The road safety audit identified some signage that could be improved and a number of white lines that needed to be upgraded. Those works have been done. Currently 30 000 vehicles a day use that road. The speed limit was 90 kilometres an hour in the 1970s from when it was upgraded to a dual carriageway but in those days, only about 10 000 vehicles a day used it. Its use by 30 000 vehicles a day justifies the 80 kilometre per hour speed limit. As I said, as part of the road safety audit, we tried to estimate the work that would be required to enable us to bring the speed limit on the highway back to 90 kilometres an hour. More than $20 million worth of work is required to do that because of the large number of driveway accesses along the route. Although we were able to fund the improvements to the signage and white lines from our ordinary federal government allocations, we do not have a special allocation from the federal government to pay for the more than $20 million worth of work that will be required for the improvements. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: That is part of the problem. I hope that by now members are developing awareness that we are getting only 6.9 per cent of the national share of the road transport funds, which are clearly inadequate given our population, the size of the state and our economic contribution to the country. We are sure that this will be addressed as part of the Perth-Adelaide development strategy that is being jointly considered by the state and federal governments; that is, the AusLink mark 2 proposal. The work done for that audit will be fed into the Perth-Adelaide strategy and we hope moneys will be allocated in AusLink mark 2. Ms J.A. RADISICH: Can I have a copy of the audit and the work done so far? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: Certainly. [Supplementary Information No A11.] [4.50 pm] Mr J.H.D. DAY: What funds have been allocated in either this budget or the out years for constructing flyovers and improving the intersection of Great Eastern Highway and Roe Highway in the Midvale-Bellevue area? The federal government has allocated $10.5 million. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: No funds are allocated in this budget, but we will be looking at that over the coming year and will be making a decision on that in the next budget round. Mr J.H.D. DAY: So the federal government funding will be carried over? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: The federal government funding has not been allocated yet. It will be allocated in 2006- 07. Dr G.G. JACOBS: I draw the minister’s attention to page 660. The first dot point under major initiatives for 2005-06 refers to the construction of two passing lanes and widening works on South Coast Highway between Ravensthorpe and Munglinup. What will be the location of the passing lanes on that 105-kilometre stretch of road, and what distance of the road will be widened? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: We will provide that by way of supplementary information. [Supplementary Information No A12.] [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E49

Dr G.G. JACOBS: How much in either monetary terms or in kind will BHP Billiton be contributing to that upgrade? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: We will provide that by way of supplementary information. [Supplementary Information No A13.] Mr J.N. HYDE: I refer to page 648, total cost of services for 2005-06. Is it possible to break down the figure to show the money that is spent on building roads in the metropolitan region and the money that is spent on building roads in the country? I ask that question because even though most of the wealth in Western Australia is produced in the city, particularly in my electorate, we should be taking into account the vast distances in this state. I would like to know if there is a break-up of the figures. Mr B.J. GRYLLS: There are vast amounts of iron ore and gas in the member’s electorate! Mr J.N. HYDE: Sixty per cent of the state’s gross product comes from the central business district. Members of the opposition keep perpetuating a myth. Mr J.H.D. DAY: We are very appreciative of that wonderful tunnel on the Graham Farmer Freeway! The CHAIRMAN: I am sure no-one will complain to me that they have run out of time on a division, given those interjections. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: A total of 63.7 per cent of the state’s road funding is spent in regional areas. We have increased that percentage over and above the amount provided by the previous government. It is interesting to look at the roads that the opposition is stressing we need to build. We need to build Roe Highway stage 8, which will cost about $250 million. We need to build the Fremantle eastern bypass, which will cost another $80 million. All we have had in the past is a lot of rhetoric. It is certainly this government that has built roads in the country. We have built the Mt Magnet-Leinster road, the long-awaited southern transport corridor, the Gascoyne River bridge, and the Ashburton River bridge. When we came into government, 53.5-metre road trains were still going over a single-lane bridge to get to the north of the state. We have built stage 1 of the Tom Price-Karratha road, and we are in the process of building Tom Price-Karratha stage 2. We have sealed the long-awaited Marble Bar Road. After 50 years, we have completed the sealing of that road. We have built roads that have been waiting for a long time, such as the Broome-Cape Leveque Road. We have been putting money into that road. We have built roads in the Tanami Desert. We have built roads in areas that were completely neglected in the past. We have seized the initiative and delivered those roads to country regions very substantially. Mr G. SNOOK: I refer to page 653. The third dot point under major initiatives for 2005-06 refers to the construction of passing lines on the section of Great Northern Highway between Muchea and Wubin. The costings are outlined on page 663, under new works. I understand that is a federal road and that the federal government made $5 million available for that road in 2004-05. It appears that Main Roads has taken up only $3 million of that $5 million. Why has the state government not taken up that offer of funding? Is that funding dollar for dollar? Is that the restriction that has been placed on it? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: It is not dollar for dollar. The federal government has very little responsibility for roads in Western Australia. Great Northern Highway is its responsibility. Mr G. SNOOK: Yes, but the state is the one that is doing the work on that road, is it not? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: That is correct. Mr G. SNOOK: If the funding is not dollar for dollar, and if $5 million was allocated and made available to the state in 2004-05, why did the state government take up only $3 million of that $5 million? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: I presume that work is still in progress. As I have said, one of the problems with project- based budgets, particularly in the days of the previous government, was that Main Roads always fell a long way short of its construction target. That is because one of the inherent exigencies in a project-based budget is that we cannot always - for a host of reasons, which may be environmental, Aboriginal heritage approvals, engineering impediments or bad weather - spend the money in the year in which it is allocated. That is why we need to change the system and have a different allocation regime. We are spending the funds. It is just that we do not always complete all of the project within the particular budget year. We may just complete the job at a later stage and send the federal government the bill. It is important to understand that we do not lose the money. We will be spending it. Mr G. SNOOK: Is the funding ongoing, so that if the state slips behind one year it is $2 million less? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: These things are often moved around, sometimes to suit the state, and sometimes to suit the federal government. For example, initially there was not to be any federal funding for Roe Highway stages 4 and 5. The federal government was going to put its money into Roe stages 6 and 7 and be a minor contributor to those stages. However, in order for the federal government to meet some things that were happening in its budget, it asked us in 2002-03 whether it could take some of the money for Roe stage 7 and put that into Roe stage 5, and whether we would pick up the difference in Roe stage 7. Therefore, we now have no federal money in Roe stage 7, because the money

E50 [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] was moved around to suit the federal government budget. That sort of movement of money is constantly being negotiated between Main Roads and the federal government. The money has not been lost. The money will be spent on that project. Mr G. SNOOK: We just need to be a bit more patient. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: No. It is happening. The CHAIRMAN: I have the list of members who are seeking the call. I will not acknowledge any other member until I finish the list, because then it may be timely for the incoming Chair to remind members that there is still one division left. I suggest that after this list is exhausted members seek guidance from the committee as to whether they want to move on. The list is as follows: The members for Darling Range, Swan Hills, Bunbury, Warren-Blackwood, Roe, Perth and Merredin. If members are to get through that list and still deal with another division they will probably need to be cognisant of the list and the time. [5.00 pm] Mr J.H.D. DAY: I have two questions. The first relates to obtaining information sought earlier, and the second relates to Abernethy Road and Tonkin Highway in the Kewdale-Forrestfield area. My follow-up question relates to the Fremantle eastern bypass. The minister said that she would provide information on the total number of properties expected to be sold as a result of the deletion of the Fremantle eastern bypass from the metropolitan region scheme. How many properties have been sold so far, and what amount of money has been received? By way of supplementary information, if necessary, can I have a list of what has been received from each property? My next question - The CHAIRMAN (Mrs D.J. Guise): We will deal with one question first. Ms A.J. MacTIERNAN: In terms of property owned by Main Roads - property is in different ownership, as was explained earlier - 30 properties have been sold, netting $12.9 million. A further 16 properties remain to be sold. In relation to the Western Australian Planning Commission, 13 properties have been sold with receipts totalling $6.4 million, and four property are unsold. In total, 43 properties have been sold with total receipts of $19.8 million. Thirty-two properties are unsold, for which the government anticipates it will probably receive around $7 million. Mr J.H.D. DAY: My further question relates to the need for an on-ramp connecting Abernethy Road in Forrestfield to the Tonkin Highway in the Kewdale area. I understand that funds have been allocated for this work as part of the Main Roads budget; however, environmental problems have arisen in constructing the very much needed on-ramp. The minister might be aware of an incident involving a large load in suburban Forrestfield a month or two ago. Is the minister seeking resolution of the situation preventing the construction of the on-ramp proceeding? This is a major issue to the Shire of Kalamunda and local residents. Ms A.J. MacTIERNAN: The government is very keen to progress this matter. An appeal was lodged by a third party against the environmental assessment, and the Appeals Convenor is seeking more information on the matter. The Appeals Convenor is looking at a possible negotiated settlement of this matter involving the possible acquisition of other land. The mediation process is being undertaken with the Appeals Convenor. Mr J.H.D. DAY: Will the minister apply pressure to try to get an outcome as soon as possible? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: I do not need to put pressure on my excellent staff at Main Roads, as they are always at the fore ready to do the right thing. Ms J.A. RADISICH: I refer to the third dot point under major initiatives on page 651 of the Budget Statements regarding the implementation of changes to the heavy vehicle accreditation scheme. I presume that the scheme was set up following the road train summit process commenced during the last term of this government. It seems some refinement is required to that accreditation scheme following stakeholder requests. How might that unfold in the coming year? Ms A.J. MacTIERNAN: I thank the member for the question. The member for Swan Hills was involved in some of the road train summits - I remember she came down to the Katanning summit. Ms J.A. RADISICH: Among others. Ms A.J. MacTIERNAN: A range of strategies was produced to provide certainty to the heavy haulage industry. We had a very good time in Katanning. Several members interjected. The CHAIRMAN: Order! If members do not hold conversations, they might receive answers and the committee will be able to move on. Ms A.J. MacTIERNAN: We certainly enjoyed the road train summit in Katanning. We always enjoy going into these National Party areas. My favourite part was when an elderly farmer, who was probably in his 80s and was dressed up in a suit for the summit, said to me after the meeting, “Pet, that was the best meeting I’ve ever been to.” Several members interjected. [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E51

The CHAIRMAN: Therein lies the lesson about interjections - well done, minister! Mr B.J. GRYLLS: I wondered who that one vote for the Labor Party was from down there! The CHAIRMAN: You will regret encouragement. Ms A.J. MacTIERNAN: The process was designed to provide greater security, and a resolution to the ongoing dispute about long vehicles on roads. A strategy was produced involving the principle of accreditation, by which heavy haulage operators need to be accredited in order to obtain permits to operate vehicles longer than 19 metres. A process relating to fatigue management and vehicle maintenance needed to be undertaken. Western Australia was the first state in Australia to have any sort of mandatory accreditation. However, it has become obvious over the past six months that although we took a softly, softly approach to the introduction of this scheme, accreditation now needs some teeth as it must be more than only a paper trail. It should result in accredited operators producing real results with fatigue management and vehicle maintenance. The government is working with the industry on ways to strengthen accreditation, including considering the development of a demerit point system by which people would lose accreditation through a certain number of infringements. People can currently receive prohibition or improvement notices under WorkSafe that do not feed back and affect people’s accreditation. People may be fined for speeding or for being overweight - the vehicle, not the person, that is - but such infringements do not feed into the accreditation reckoning, which is an unsatisfactory situation. Many long-distance operators are concerned about this regime. I refer to men and women who want to operate safely and act within safe guidelines for fatigue management and maintenance, but who are constantly being undercut by other drivers prepared to take a job in a very competitive industry. The step forward of giving accreditation more grunt and setting up a demerit system is very necessary. We are working with a ministerial committee on the heavy haulage industry to work through the issues. At the same time, priority is being given to compliance and enforcement and chain of responsibility legislation that will be enacted across Australia. I hope to have it in Parliament by September this year. Anyone in the supply chain involved in creating circumstances of infringement, such as putting pressure on drivers to work unsafe hours or to overload vehicles, will be equally culpable, and this will give some discipline to the system. I am pleased that the Main Roads compliance section has found a little passage in the Sentencing Act that has been used in some instances to ping principals and not only drivers. In addition, the government is continuing to ramp up the number of inspectors and the amount of money placed into enforcement, with an additional $600 000 each year over the forward estimates to go even further in terms of increased compliance. Mr B.J. GRYLLS: An issue raised with me is that insurance is not a component of a permit or compliance. Therefore, a truck driver can receive a permit for an overwidth load without having the vehicle insured. That is something the minister’s staff need to take on board. Ms A.J. MacTIERNAN: I do not know how anyone can be on the road without insurance. I will take the member’s comments on board. Can he give some examples? It seems bizarre. Mr B.J. GRYLLS: My office rang Main Roads to ask whether insurance was a requirement to obtain a permit. The Main Roads person said no. Ms A.J. MacTIERNAN: Insurance is required for a permit to operate a vehicle on the road. Mr B.J. GRYLLS: I refer to comprehensive insurance, not third party. Ms A.J. MacTIERNAN: Comprehensive insurance is not part - Mr B.J. GRYLLS: It was not the advice I got from the department. I will do more work on it. [5.10 pm] Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: Comprehensive insurance is not a part of it - I agree with the member for Merredin. The member is talking about comprehensive insurance? Mr B.J. GRYLLS: Yes. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: That is not part of it. We are not trying to add unnecessarily to cost structures. We have considered the issue of comprehensive insurance in a general sense. There have been moves in other states to have it included. A proposal went before the Australian Transport Council; however, the pretty strong recommendation that came back was that we should not go down that route for heavy haulage. Mr G.M. CASTRILLI: I refer the minister to the Safer Roads program on page 664 of the Budget Statements. In particular, I draw the minister’s attention to the construction and widening of passing lanes from Waroona to Harvey and from Wokalup to Roelands, to which approximately $13.5 million and $11.6 million respectively has been allocated. Will the minister advise when these projects are likely to start and finish? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: Which projects is the member for Bunbury talking about? Mr G.M. CASTRILLI: I refer to what is outlined two-thirds of the way down page 664 under the Safer Roads program, which refers to the provision and widening of passing lanes from Waroona to Harvey -

E52 [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005]

Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: I think the member is a little confused because there are two separate programs. Page 664 of the Budget Statements refers to the Safer Road program and also to the South Western Highway, which is a separate allocation. Mr G.M. CASTRILLI: I refer to the Waroona to Harvey and Wokalup to Roelands parts of the South Western Highway. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: They will be undertaken in 2006-07. Mr G.M. CASTRILLI: The other two will be completed in 2005-06? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: Which ones? Mr G.M. CASTRILLI: The two above; that is, Hester Hill to Bridgetown and the Thomas Road intersection. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: There was a special allocation of $7.5 million. Mr D. Snook: Those particular amounts of funding refer to funding for passing lanes that were completed in 2004-05. That is the additional funding required to pay for them. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: The bottom two projects are already under construction. Mr G.M. CASTRILLI: That is the finishing-off funds? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: That is right. The other two are part of the $7.5 million for South Western Highway project. They are the first two cabs off the rank and they will be done this year. The others will commence in 2006-07. For the benefit of the member for Merredin - if he can tear himself away from the member for Swan Hills - the Treasurer’s speech did not include, for example, all the moneys from the Safer Roads program. I point out that logically the Treasurer was correct when he said more than $108 million, although it turned out to be a lot more than $108 million. As the member can see, the majority of moneys in the Safer Road program has gone into rural areas. The Safer Roads program targets where road fatalities are occurring and attempts to address those issues. I refer the member for Merredin to page 664 of the Budget Statements so that he can see that, of the moneys listed, the majority is going into rural roads. I am not quite sure why items such as the South Western Highway were not included in the budget speech. I will talk to the Treasurer’s speech writer. Mr J.H.D. DAY: The minister would be aware of the tragedy that occurred a few weeks ago on the South Western Highway and of the dangerous state of the highway, particularly in the Donnybrook and Bridgetown areas. We are aware that the minister is allocating funding for the bypass around the Bridgetown town centre. I commend her for that. However, only $2.5 million has been allocated for the construction of additional passing lanes in the Hester Hill area. Will additional funding be available either in 2005-06 or in the out years for the improvement of safety on the South Western Highway in that region? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: I will refer to the black spot program because I think it contains additional moneys, particularly for the Hester Hill area. As the member knows, our principal strategy is to rescue the rail link and to upgrade the rail link to develop an internodal terminal at North Greenbushes to remove a lot of the heavy haulage from that road. Mr J.H.D. DAY: That will not remove the danger. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: No, it will not remove all of it, but it will certainly have a marked effect on the safety of that road. That is our number one strategy. At the same time, we are looking at what needs to be done. I will look at the possibility of bringing some works forward. We are doing a thorough audit of what caused the accidents to determine whether there was an issue with the configuration of the vehicles or whether the addition of hungry boards on the side made the vehicles unstable. Mr J.H.D. DAY: The addition of what? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: The boards that allow them to go higher, because they are a lightweight material. However, that moves the centre of gravity upwards and may compromise safety. We are considering the length of the connector between the trailers to determine whether that is compromising safety. We are also trying to determine whether any other specific projects can be addressed in the short term while we get the rail project under way. I urge the member for Bunbury to do what he can to make commonsense prevail in the chip-mill issue. We are looking at a range of possibilities. Certainly the rail is the primary way to address this problem. There may be other things we can do in the short term. There are a few items in the $20 million black spot program that will also be available this year. It has not yet been signed off, but we are confident that it will be. Mr J.H.D. DAY: Can the minister provide more detail? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: They have not formally been signed off. That will happen in the next couple of weeks. I do not anticipate that that will change. I can understand how, when reading the Treasurer’s speech, the member for Merredin arrived at the $108 million that will be spent on roads in regional Western Australia. However, it is [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E53 extraordinary that his media release bleats about the government spending only $20 million a year on black spots. I remind the member that when we came into government, the government of which his party was a part was spending $13 million, which it considered to be a large sum. The Labor Party went to the 2001 election with a commitment to increase that amount to $15 million, which it did. Then it went to the last election with a commitment to increase the amount to $20 million, which it has now done. I hardly think that the quantum leap from $13 million to $20 million in four years should be the subject of complaint. [5.20 pm] Dr G.G. JACOBS: While we are on the subject of black spot funding, I direct the attention of the minister to about halfway down page 662 to the line item “Minor Works (includes Black Spot and urgent minor works)”. The minister will note that the expenditure for 2004-05 of $42.333 million has been reduced to $38.344 million in 2005-06. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: What is the member’s point? Dr G.G. JACOBS: Has the government actually committed $20 million of that $38 million to black spot funding, and therefore the remainder is urgent minor works? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: It is important to understand that this category is covered under a range of different headings. This line item refers to works actually in progress. It does not represent the sum total of expenditure in those categories. This is the sum total of expenditure for works that are partly completed. The member should also look at the new works on page 663. A lot of the black spot funding would be allocated to new works. Dr G.G. JACOBS: Would there be a particular heading for new works in the black spot program, or does that come under the safer roads program? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: We have here a breakdown of the minor works included in that line item, and it does include the $20 million in black spot funding, because this is considered to be an ongoing program. However, other minor works are included in other categories under “New Works”. That heading includes the safer roads program, which contains a lot of minor works, and the South Western Highway category also includes a lot of minor works that have been the subject of special allocations. I am happy to provide as supplementary information a breakdown of the minor works program. However, the member should bear in mind that other minor works are in the new works section, but have come under the other headings of the safer roads program and the South Western Highway. The CHAIRMAN (Mr M.J. Cowper): Can the minister clarify what she will be providing by way of supplementary information? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: I will be providing a breakdown of the line item for minor works on page 662 of the Budget Statements. [Supplementary Information No A14.] Mr J.N. HYDE: My question relates to the local government roads agreement mentioned on page 669 of the Budget Statements. This section shows that overall grants to local government increased. Can the minister advise on the progress of negotiations for the new agreement with local government? In my previous role in local government, when the member for Warren-Blackwood was the minister negotiating that agreement, my experience was that we never got all that we wanted. I would be very interested to know how the minister is faring with the Western Australian Local Government Association. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: There are a number of issues here. The first, obviously, has been the quantum of the grants. Obviously, local government always wants more. However, when we examine what local government is now getting, together with the changed landscape in which a lot more money is going to local government directly from the federal government, the government believes that its proposal of a guaranteed 27 per cent of motor vehicle registration fees represents a very fair share of the state’s road money to local government. Mr J.H.D. DAY: The quantity is going down, because registration fees have been reduced. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: Where did the member get that information from? Mr J.N. HYDE: Car sales are booming. Mr J.H.D. DAY: It is the same percentage, but motor vehicle registration fees will be reduced by $25. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: However, the total receipts are increasing. Originally, we agreed to allocate 25 per cent of the proceeds of registration fees to local government. When the government decided to give some of the wealth of the state and results of the success of its good economic management back to the punters by way of a $25 reduction in motor vehicle registration fees, it recognised that it did not want local government to have to cop the impact of that generosity. At that point, the percentage offered to local government was changed from 25 per cent to 27 per cent. The decision to cut vehicle registration fees was revenue neutral for local government. The state government did not expect local government to bear the cost of its beneficence. The other important thing the government has tried to do with this agreement is to put some fairness into the system of allocation between the rural groups. The lion’s share of road project grants will go to rural areas, but concern has been

E54 [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] raised, in particular by shires like Gnowangerup, about the break-up of that funding. I am surprised that we did not hear more, particularly from the National Party members who represent the great southern, the seat of Roe and the south west shires. Those areas were really being dealt with very poorly in the break-up of these funds. When I sought to find out from Main Roads the way in which we account for these allocations, which certainly seemed to be counter-intuitive, the answer was that this was the way it had always been done. It had been distributed on the basis of historic allocations. However, as we know, circumstances change. New industries emerge and new areas are placed under increasing pressure and the effects of increasing population, but nothing in the road funding formula allows for that. We have worked with local government and come up with an agreed new model that brings into play two components. The first is the asset preservation model, which looks at what needs to be done to preserve the roads. That will account for 75 per cent of the calculation. The other 25 per cent will be based on population. We now see, in those road allocations, a much fairer break-up of the money distributed than in the past. It does mean that a few of the wheatbelt shires get a slightly lower proportion than they received in the past. However, the goldfields and the south west now receive a fairer share of the pie. The appropriation was recommended. [5.30 pm] Division 41: Public Transport Authority of Western Australia, $967 217 000 - Mr M.J. Cowper, Chairman. Ms A.J.G. MacTiernan, Minister for Planning and Infrastructure. Mr H.R. Smith, Acting Chief Executive Officer. Mr A.B. Cartledge, Manager, Project Coordination. Mr R.D. Mann, Director, City Project. Mr J.W. Leaf, Executive Director, Finance and Contracts. Mr M.A. Burgess, Executive Director, Transperth. Mr R.D. Farrell, Principal Policy Officer, Office of the Minister for Planning and Infrastructure. Mr J.H.D. DAY: I am sure that the minister would be disappointed if there was no question on the southern suburbs railway, which is referred to, amongst other places, at the bottom of page 675. The minister announced a couple of months ago an increase of $45 million in the expected cost and a blow-out in the completion time to April 2007. Does the minister stand by that completion time or does she expect that it may be further extended? Is there any provision in the budget or the out years for any further cost escalation of the southern suburbs railway? How is it progressing? Have any difficulties arisen as a result of the tunnelling under William Street, if, indeed, it has started? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: I thank the member for the question. One thing needs to be clarified, because it is an understandable confusion in the eyes of some. The increase in the budget and the extension of time are actually unrelated. I thought it best to make both announcements at the same time. Mr J.H.D. DAY: I should have added one other question. When will the minister change the signs trumpeting the fact that the railway will be arriving in Mandurah in 2006? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: We live in hope that trains will be running on the line by then. I think if the member looks at the signs, he will see that they indicate that the stations will be completed by that time. That will still be the case. We certainly hope that some trains will be running on the line; the delay is being caused in the city rail project component. By that time one tunnel will be completed. As the member may be aware, two parallel tunnels will be under William Street. Mr J.H.D. DAY: By what time? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: By the end of 2006. I cannot say that we will have operational services by then but we will certainly have trains. Mr J.H.D. DAY: One tunnel will be completed by then? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: Definitely. Mr J.H.D. DAY: But not two? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: We do not anticipate that we will have two tunnels completed in time to allow a 2006 operational start. We expect the tunnels to be completed by the end of 2006, but obviously time is needed to commission the line to link it with the signalling system, and all of that takes a couple of months. The date that we have set of April is one that we believe is the most prospective date, given the difficulties that have occurred on the tunnel section. I spoke as recently as two days ago to Peter McMorrow, the senior officer of Leighton in Sydney. Leighton believes that the project is now going very well, and productivity has improved. [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E55

The CHAIRMAN: Minister, may I ask that you bring your answer to a conclusion so that the member for Carine can have the call? Mr J.H.D. DAY: In particular, have there been any further allocations of funds in this budget or further cost escalations or do you expect any? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: No. If I am asked free-ranging and multiple questions, of course - Mr J.H.D. DAY: It is a fairly precise question, but the minister is given to providing very verbose answers. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: As I have said, we have done a review of contingencies. We were of the view that the $26 million left as a contingency was inadequate. We have increased that by $45 million. It is our view that that is an adequate contingency. Obviously, each year we review the project and see how it is going. I cannot absolutely guarantee, and it would be silly of me to attempt to guarantee, that there will not be any further cost escalations, but we are pretty comfortable with the $71 million that we have as a contingency at this time. Ms K. HODSON-THOMAS: Further to that, the minister talks about the one tunnel under William Street being completed. She did not actually outline when she expects that the second will be completed. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: By the end of 2006. Leighton was originally to complete both tunnels - the whole city rail project - by 21 October 2006. Leighton has told the government that it does not believe it can meet the deadline. It has had to extend the completion date until December 2006. The government had to nominate a completion date for package A. Under the terms of the proposal there were only two possible dates. One was a completion date in December, which meant that Leighton would have to hand over the city rail project by the end of October. When Leighton told the government it was unable to do that, the government had to take the second date, which is April 2007, for the completion of the whole system. [5.40 pm] Ms K. HODSON-THOMAS: The government expects the two tunnels to be completed and the railway to be operational by April 2007? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: That is right. Mr B.J. GRYLLS: I refer to the non-current liabilities listed at page 683. Borrowings are estimated to rise from approximately $1.3 billion in 2004-05 to approximately $2.124 billion in 2008-09. I also refer to the line item of finance costs listed under expenses at page 682. They are estimated to rise from approximately $91 million in 2004-05 to approximately $147 million in 2008-09. Will the minister explain the formula for interest rates that is used to calculate the out-year figures? In what way has the interest bill been calculated on the borrowings? I assume they are for the whole of the Public Transport Authority and not just the railway. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: Mr Leaf will answer. Mr J.W. Leaf: In our books, the interest rate averages at just over six per cent at the moment. The cost of finance relates to the borrowing cost. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: The borrowings are from the WA Treasury Corporation. The cost of borrowings are - Mr J.W. Leaf: A little over six per cent, but it could well vary by the time we draw the funds down, depending on the current interest rates in the marketplace. Mr B.J. GRYLLS: These figures are based on six per cent? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: A bit over six per cent. Mr B.J. GRYLLS: Out to 2008-09? Mr J.W. Leaf: Yes, at an average of just over six per cent. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: We are taking John Howard at his word! Ms J.A. RADISICH: I refer to the details of controlled grants and subsidies at page 685, which contains a reference to regional school bus services. I note that the amounts increase significantly in the out years. Funds given to school bus contractors have increased fairly significantly a number of times in recent years. Will the minister explain the continuing upward trend? What will be the outcomes for students who travel on that type of transport? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: I thank the member for the question. The amount of money allocated to school bus contracts has increased quite dramatically. It is largely because of the move towards the new composite rate model. The vast majority of school bus operators have recognised that they have a very good deal under this government. The proof of that is in the budget figures. The amounts have gone well beyond what the operators were contractually entitled to in negotiating the new contracts. The contracts advertised by the school bus operators should come under the heading of “money for jam”. They are secure contracts and government-backed. Many people operating other sorts of businesses say they would like to have such a generous income with such a low level of risk attached. It has been a

E56 [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] very good outcome for the bus operators; the majority of bus operators recognise that. It has been very beneficial for bus drivers. Their rates of pay have increased considerably; the drivers have gone from a minimum payment of three hours to four hours. The government has also introduced an independent appeals process and an independent review panel to review and determine fixed and variable costs over a three-year cyclical period. I know that the member for Swan Hills has been subject to harassment by some bus operators, as have I. However, I am quite confident that they do not represent the majority of the bus operators providing these essential services to the young people in our community. Mr J.N. HYDE: I refer to the capital works program at page 679, particularly federal funding for rail. Reference is made to the North Quay rail loop project, which is the only rail project in Western Australia to which the federal government has agreed to give AusLink rail funding. Western Australia receives less than one per cent of the $1.8 billion available in AusLink funds. What other projects is the state government seeking funding for? Which Western Australian members of the federal government are helping the state to get its fair share of funds? I want names. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: We have one great supporter in the federal Parliament, who is Martin Ferguson. He has gone on record about the unfair treatment handed out to Western Australia. The story concerning rail transport is absolutely scandalous. Under AusLink, there is $1.8 billion - Ms K. HODSON-THOMAS: The minister sounds like a broken record! Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: Yes, but in politics one has to say it again and again! The CHAIRMAN (Mr M.J. Cowper): Order! Ms K. HODSON-THOMAS: Mr Chairman, I have a point of order. I am normally a very tolerant individual. We have only 13 minutes left to ask some very important questions. I recognise that the minister wants to make another passing flick at the federal government but it is an abuse of this process. Ms J.A. RADISICH: The member for Carine has not been present for the four hours of the estimates process under the minister. If she refers to the call sheet she has in front of her, she will notice that the opposition has had two, three or even four questions for every one asked by the government. Government members have a right to ask questions as well. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: I will get on with the answer. The opposition members have delayed getting to this part of the call sheet. Of the $1.8 billion, Western Australia has been able to get an allocation of only $14 million from the federal government. The state has two other relatively small projects for which it has sought funding. One is $30 million for the east-west rail link, which is needed for re-sleepering and crossing loops from Kewdale to Kalgoorlie. It is very important to enable us to continue to run the Prospector on time. The problem is that the rail line is now so chock-a- block that trains are queuing, and it is difficult to get the freight moving and to get the time slots to enable the Prospector to run on time. We have been asking for $30 million, which would give us less than two per cent of the total national share. Rumour has it in Canberra that one of the reasons we are not getting the funding is that when the federal member for Kalgoorlie was approached about whether he thought it was a worthwhile project he told the federal government to not worry about it because he did not think it was very important. I do not know whether that is true; however, if it is, it confirms my view of the federal member’s attitude the last time I spoke to him, when I sought his help to work with the federal government to get money for the Burrup. He said he would not help because he does not support development on the Burrup. It is about time the federal member for Kalgoorlie came clean and made it clear whether he supports Western Australia in a very legitimate quest for some additional funding. I would like the state member for Kalgoorlie, the Leader of the Opposition, to back the Labor government in its claim for $30 million. Mr J.H.D. DAY: My question relates to the SmartRider ticketing system referred to on page 679. I noticed an article about it in The West Australian of 20 October 2003. The government released a number of media statements, five of which indicated that the SmartRider system would be more convenient for passengers. They also indicated that the system would be in operation by the end of 2004. It is six months past that time. Despite the minister’s five announcements and the Premier’s press release, I understand it is not yet in operation. Why is it not yet operational? When will it be operational? When will the barrier system be in operation in at least some stations? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: Dealing with new technology is always complex. Despite the delay, we will still be the first state in Australia to introduce this system. Other states have been having even greater difficulty than we are having in implementing this technology. I live in fear and trepidation that the member for Carine might attack me as she did over the transport executive and licensing information system when she said that we introduced it too early and consequently it was not ready to be used. We have therefore decided to delay the introduction of the SmartRider system to make sure that it is operational. Mr J.H.D. DAY: What are the problems with it? [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E57

Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: It is just a matter of getting all the ticketing systems and software operational and dealing with the complexity of the system. The date for introduction is January 2006. Mr J.H.D. DAY: Thirteen months after the minister said it would be ready. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: Yes, it is late, but that is life. We have put our best effort into it. The experience around Australia is that the systems have been very difficult to implement, and we do not resile from that. It is easy to not get something wrong when we do nothing. The government has made the investment and it is under way. We have decided to delay its introduction until we are absolutely confident it will work. Mr J.H.D. DAY: What about the barrier system? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: The barrier system is part of it. New stations are being designed with the barrier system. Mr J.H.D. DAY: Will they come into operation? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: Yes, at stations that are operational. Dr G.G. JACOBS: Orange bus contractors in my area are not as happy as the minister has made out. They are unhappy about the lack of flexibility for bus upgrades and the lack of planning. Does the student fare concession referred to on page 685 apply to students on the town bus services in the country? In their ever-increasing network, town bus services are taking students away from orange buses. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: It is important to understand that our public transport system is not structured to maximise the profit for orange bus contractors. Yes, the 50c concession, which I hope members have warmly greeted, applies to town bus services. We have put a lot of effort into modernising town bus services. When this government took office there were no proper contracts in place and the services were not integrated into a proper public transport system. Through the Public Transport Authority, the administration of the town bus services has improved immensely. Mr D.A. TEMPLEMAN: I am very interested in the railcar contract. I refer to pages 679 and 680. When will the new electric trains be completed and ready for use? How much more is required to be spent on the railcars after the $42 million that has been spent, which I think is referred to in the estimates, so that we can see them in service? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: Eighteen of the three-car sets have been delivered and are operational. The technology has proved to be very successful. They have been virtually trouble free. We are anticipating another 13 of the cars will be delivered next year. Ms J.A. RADISICH: They are not for Armadale, are they? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: Alas; they come to Armadale only on special occasions. In light of the high speed of these trains and because they are large cars, they will be exclusively run on the Joondalup and Mandurah lines. Eighteen three-car sets have been delivered, and 14 are in service. The next 13 are expected next financial year. Mr J.N. HYDE: On the Armadale line? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: The operation of the new cars will enable us to backfill with existing cars on the Armadale, Midland and Fremantle lines to help with capacity problems. Mr B.J. GRYLLS: I refer to the opening of the new Kewdale depot to house and service the new Prospector railcar, mentioned on page 676. Can we have a brief update on the reliability of the Prospector, the performance of which has been of serious concern for a long time? Perhaps the minister can advise by way of supplementary information whether the Public Transport Authority has incurred extra costs by using buses to cover the rail service when the Prospector has broken down? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: We will provide that as supplementary information. We should be able to claim that from the manufacturer, United Goninan, because it should still be within the railcar’s warranty period. Unfortunately, we do not have any Transwa people here today. The CHAIRMAN: Will the minister please clarify what information she will provide as supplementary information? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: We will provide information on the cost of buses that have been used as a substitute service when the Prospector was not running, and whether that is covered under warranty provisions by United Goninan, the manufacturer of the Prospector. In most instances the old Prospector trains, rather than buses, have been used. [Supplementary Information No A15.]. Mr B.J. GRYLLS: A lot of buses run to cover it. Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: There is a problem with new technology. I do not like repeating myself and upsetting the member for Carine, but the Prospector was not chosen by this government. Mr J.H.D. DAY: What was different about it?

E58 [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005]

Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: It is new technology. When we selected our trains for New MetroRail they were tried and true technology. Vehicles of that sort had been built and were operational. Mr J.H.D. DAY: What is different about the Prospector? Ms A.J.G. MacTIERNAN: It is a different train altogether; it is new technology. The same situation has been experienced in Brisbane with the tilt train and in Sydney with the millennium train. The first people to use new technology usually have problems. The appropriation was recommended. Meeting suspended from 6.00 to 7.00 pm Division 62: Office of the Inspector of Custodial Services, $1 756 000 - Dr S.C. Thomas, Chairman. Mr J.B. D’Orazio, Minister for Justice. Professor R.W. Harding, Inspector of Custodial Services. Mr R.W. Stacey, Deputy Inspector of Custodial Services. Mr D. Summers, Manager, Business Services. The CHAIRMAN: This estimates committee will be reported by Hansard staff. The daily proof Hansard will be published at 9.00 am tomorrow. The estimates committee’s consideration of the estimates will be restricted to discussion of those items for which a vote of money is proposed in the consolidated fund. This is the prime focus of the committee. While there is scope for members to examine many matters, questions need to be clearly related to a page number, item, program or amount within the volumes. For example, members are free to pursue performance indicators that are included in the budget statements while there remains a clear link between the questions and the estimates. It is the intention of the Chairman to ensure that as many questions as possible are asked and answered and that both questions and answers are short and to the point. The minister may agree to provide supplementary information to the committee, rather than asking that a question be put on notice for the next sitting week. For the purpose of following up the provision of this information, I ask the minister to clearly indicate to the committee which supplementary information he agrees to provide and I will then allocate a reference number. If supplementary information is to be provided, I seek the minister’s cooperation in ensuring that it is delivered to the committee clerk by 17 June 2005, so that members may read it before the report and third reading stages. If the supplementary information cannot be provided within that time, written advice is required of the day by which the information will be made available. Details in relation to supplementary information have been provided to both members and advisers and, accordingly, I ask the minister to cooperate with those requirements. I caution members that if a minister asks that a matter be put on notice, it is up to the member to lodge the question on notice with the clerk’s office. Only supplementary information that the minister agrees to provide will be sought by 17 June 2005. Ms S.E. WALKER: I refer the minister to the mission statement of the Office of the Inspector of Custodial Services on page 1046, which states - To establish and maintain an independent, expert and fair inspection service so as to provide Parliament, the Minister, stakeholders, the media and the general public with up-to-date information and analysis about prison and detention centre operations and custodial services, so that debate and discussion may be enhanced as to whether and to what extent the key objectives of these activities are being achieved. I am no longer shadow Minister for Justice, but I do miss reading the inspector’s reports. I noticed during the time I was responsible for that shadow portfolio that the inspector gave his recommendations to the department and the department said whether it agreed with them, but that the reports never contained a third column about whether the department followed through on the recommendations. Will a third column be included in the inspector’s reports to show whether the department has followed through on suggested programs or with the upgrading of different prisons? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: The department has responded to a number of the suggestions in those reports. As minister, I have also taken a particular interest in the recommendations made by the inspector. Most of the recommendations have been implemented in some form or other. Ms S.E. WALKER: Will we know about it? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: It is very difficult, because the report comes to Parliament. The department acts on some of those recommendations. I do not know how we can get a third column into the inspector’s report; it is basically a report to the Parliament and to the minister, and the department acts on those recommendations. It will be very difficult to [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E59 come back with a further report on the report, although the inspector does further reports on his original reports. The member would be aware of the case of Broome Regional Prison. The inspector did that report three or four years ago - Ms S.E. WALKER: But nobody followed it through. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: He tabled a report in February and I have been waiting for the member for Hillarys to ask me a question on it. I was going to point out the improvements undertaken in the centre during the term of this government, but I did not get that opportunity. Nevertheless, we take those recommendations seriously and most of them are acted upon. There is obviously a logical reason that some cannot be acted upon. Professor Harding may have something to add. Professor Harding: The Office of the Inspector of Custodial Services was set up five years ago and we had an obligation to inspect all prisons and other custodial services within three years. The second phase of inspections began in 2003. At each of those prison inspections we have been able to assess for ourselves whether there has been adequate follow-up of the previous recommendations, and we have published in the appendices of each report what we call a scorecard. It is true that for some of those early second-phase inspections there were disappointing implementation rates by the department, but I perhaps should tell the committee that at our most recent inspection, which was at Bandyup Women’s Prison only two weeks ago, we were extremely pleased to find that 16 of the 22 recommendations that the department had indicated that it would implement had been implemented to an acceptable or better degree. Of course, if it is done this way, prison by prison, it takes a little while to see what is happening. I have been in negotiation with the department over the past year or so about the development of the government’s framework between the department and my office, which indicates whether the department has actually implemented the things that it has agreed to implement. This is now at a reasonably advanced stage. Last week the department appointed a new person to take control of the audit aspect of my recommendations to see whether they had been implemented. I am reasonably confident that by the end of this year, or certainly by the end of the next financial year, we will have in place a system that enables members at any given moment to check what has happened in response to my recommendations. It must be said that it has been a difficult and long road, but I am confident that we will get to the end of that road. The system will, of course, enhance the value of this accountability office to Parliament generally as well as assist the minister and, I hope, the department in the conduct of their affairs. [7.10 pm] Ms S.E. WALKER: How will that information be presented and where will members be able to read it? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: As Professor Harding said, it is in the appendix to his report. Ms S.E. WALKER: Yes, I understand that. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I am sure that I will be reporting on the progress of the implementation of the recommendations because the member will ask me about it when the report is tabled in Parliament. Ms S.E. WALKER: I understood the inspector to say that members would be able to see the set of recommendations for each prison on an ongoing basis; that is, the recommendations could be posted on the web site along with a tick off that the department agreed with the inspector’s recommendations, and next to that we could see which recommendations had been implemented so far. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: That is incorporated as an annexure to the report. Ms S.E. WALKER: No, I mean so that we can see it on an ongoing basis on the web site. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: Absolutely, but only after the inspection has been carried out can we see whether the recommendations have been complied with. We will have to wait until after the inspector conducts the inspection. That means it will be in part of his report, which will be on the Internet, and the member for Nedlands can ask me questions in Parliament as often as she likes. Ms S.E. WALKER: Is the minister talking about the inspector’s annual report or his report on the re-inspection of prisons? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: No; specific to the prison that he is inspecting at the time. Ms J.A. RADISICH: I refer to page 1047 of volume 3 of the Budget Statements. Will the minister clarify for the benefit of the estimates committee the issues relating to the role of the inspector, particularly his giving advice to government under sections 17 and 23 of the Inspector of Custodial Services Act? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: After the Supreme Court escape, the inspector was able to provide some key advice on the security of the Fremantle and Rockingham custodial facilities. In addition, he has been particularly good at giving us advice on how we can tackle drug use at Karnet Prison Farm. He has also given us advice on the decline in the operational performance of Roebourne, Broome and Eastern Goldfields Regional Prisons. Of course, they have improved now. During the year, the inspector also provided briefings to various opposition spokespeople. However, of real importance is the information I have directed the inspector to provide to support the Mahoney inquiry to deliver a blueprint for prison reform in this state. His role will be crucial to that reform, especially on infrastructure requirements

E60 [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] in remote areas. He will play a key role in helping the inquiry come up with recommendations that we can incorporate into a blueprint for the future reform of the prison system in WA. The inspector, therefore, has a crucial and direct role to play in advising government, and I tell the member that he is doing it very well. The appropriation was recommended. Division 61: Justice, $674 565 000 - Dr S.C. Thomas, Chairman. Mr J.B. D’Orazio, Minister for Justice. Mr A. Piper, Director General. Mr I.D. Johnson, Acting Executive Director WA Prisons. Mr R. Warnes, Acting Executive Director Court Services. Ms J.T. Tang, Executive Director Community and Juvenile Justice. Ms M. Scott, Public Advocate. Ms A.R. McLaren, Public Trustee, Public Trust Office. Mr G.A. Doyle, Acting Director Financial Management. Mr P.E. Robinson, Manager Budgets and Planning. Mr M.H. Johnson, General Manager Community Justice Services, Community and Juvenile Justice. Mr P.J. Mitchell, Sheriff of Western Australia. Mr G. Turnbull, Director of Legal Aid. Mr M. Cribb, Manager Finance, Legal Aid. Mrs N. Machin, Executive Officer, Office of the Minister for Justice. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: The first dot point of offender management on page 1028 refers to improved computer security. My question is in four or five parts. I will say it slowly so that the minister can understand it. How many complaints of unauthorised access to the total offender management system are yet to be investigated? How many threats against prison officers are still awaiting investigation? I will take the questions slowly so that the minister can answer them. The CHAIRMAN: Perhaps we can deal with a couple of questions at a time and the member can ask the others as further questions. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I am not sure whether the information to that extent of detail is available to answer those questions. If the information is not available, we will organise for it to be given to the member. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: Can I have it by way of supplementary information? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: Yes. The CHAIRMAN: If there is agreement on supplementary information - Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: Let me just check with the officers. If that information is available now, we will give it to the member, but as it is pretty detailed we may have to get it for him. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: That is not a problem. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: Is an approximate figure appropriate, as the officer does not have that material with him? Mr R.F. JOHNSON: I would prefer the exact answer. I am very happy to receive that as supplementary information. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: We will agree to provide that as supplementary information. The CHAIRMAN: The minister has agreed to provide that information. Will the minister define exactly what the information is? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: Will the member state the specific items he wants? Mr R.F. JOHNSON: Yes. First, how many complaints of unauthorised access to the TOM system are yet to be investigated? Secondly, how many threats against prison officers are still awaiting investigation? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: None that we are aware of. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: Thirdly, what is the acceptable length of time to wait for an investigation to be launched into threats against prison officers? [7.20 pm] Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: If a prison officer were threatened, an investigation would commence immediately. [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E61

Mr R.F. JOHNSON: In all cases? Mr I. Johnson: If someone threatened one of my prison officers, I would want it investigated immediately. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: I have two more parts to my question. The CHAIRMAN: Before the member continues, can we agree that supplementary information is required to be provided and that the minister will provide that supplementary information? [Supplementary Information No A16.] Mr R.F. JOHNSON: Does the Department of Justice employ dedicated IT persons to assess prison computers? Mr A. Piper: The management of computer facilities and computer systems is contracted to Computer Sciences Corporation. It has dedicated staff who are committed to our contract. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: Do they do the work? Mr A. Piper: Computer Sciences Corporation provides the technical infrastructure support for computer systems within the department. That is correct. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: How often are prisoners’ computers checked? Mr A. Piper: Did the member say “prisons” or “prisoners”? I am sorry, I did not understand. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: Mr Piper has just told us that that the corporation comes in - Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: It checks systems for the department. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: I am referring to prisoners’ computers. I said that quite clearly. Mr A. Piper: I will clarify my response. I heard the member say “prisons’ computers”. There are two levels of computers within the prisons. The first are departmental computers, which are contracted to Computer Sciences Corporation. Prisoners’ computers are checked by security staff within the prison on an audit basis that is determined by risk. If the technical issues within that inspection are beyond the scope of the local security staff, they have the back-up of technical expertise, either from our central security area or, if it is even more technical, from Computer Sciences Corporation. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: The last part of the question, if Mr Piper understood it correctly, is how often are the prisoners’ computers checked? Mr A. Piper: That is determined on a site-by-site basis by the local security staff under the direction of the superintendent. An audit regime would be undertaken, depending on the security level of the prison and the level of perceived risk. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: It is done under the audit regime. How often do those audits take place? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: That varies from prison to prison. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: Can the minister give us some indication of when that occurs on a prison-by-prison basis? I am particularly concerned about the maximum and medium-security prisons. Mr A. Piper: I understand the nature of the member’s question, but I would only be speculating. I can give an indication of the frequency by providing supplementary information. [Supplementary Information No A17.] Ms S.E. WALKER: I refer to the sixth dot point on page 1018, which states - Ageing of the population and decline of extended family is forecast to increase demand for Trustee Services delivered by the Public Trustee by 7.5% per annum for the next four years, and above the rate of population growth for the next 29 years. I refer to the common fund held by the Public Trustee. The common fund, as I understand it, is the pool of money that the trustee looks after from deceased estates or administration orders. Is it correct that it contains about $250 million or $270 million? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: It is more than that. Ms S.E. WALKER: Is that held in a call account with the Western Australian Treasury? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: Yes. Ms S.E. WALKER: I am looking at the financials for this year. This year the interest received from that money was $15 360 277. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: In interest? Ms S.E. WALKER: Yes. Was the interest received?

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Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: Yes. Ms S.E. WALKER: The Public Trustee’s fee was $879 248. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: What page is that on? Ms S.E. WALKER: I refer to the sixth dot point on page 1018 of the Budget Statements, which takes me to the Public Trustee. I am looking at page 51 of the annual report of the Public Trustee. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I do not have that here. Ms S.E. WALKER: I will tell the minister and then ask him a question. The interest received was $15 360 277 and the Public Trustee’s fee of six per cent was $879 248. The interest paid to the estate was more than $10 million. That figure of $10 million is set by the Minister for Justice under the act. Why was extra interest of $447 810 paid to the Public Trustee over and above the Public Trustee’s fees? Mr A. Piper: I can give some preliminary background to the framework that covers the common fund. It is an investment vehicle that was set up under the legislation. I am sure the member is aware that a bill was first read by the previous government and that there is a proposal to alter the legislation to change the way in which that money is invested. Currently, the manner of investment of the common fund is controlled by the legislation. The legislation very heavily prescribes what sorts of investments can be made from the common fund. The common fund was initially established in the 1950s as a form of mortgage fund, which is not an acceptable risk today. The governance associated with the common fund is overseen by Treasury Corporation. It is closely involved in the governance of the financial arrangements of the common fund. The common fund is not the entirety of the funds under management in the sense that most commonly the Public Trustee does not take people’s money and put it into the common fund; those funds are managed in situ on behalf of people in a range of investments or amounts and include property and other things that are still in the name of the people for whom it is working. That is the framework and background of the common fund. Off the top of my head, I think the amount of funds under administration is closer to $500 million, as opposed to the common fund amount, which contains a couple of hundred thousand dollars. With regard to the surplus interest, I understand that the effective interest rate is not set except on a recommendation of the Department of Treasury and Finance and Treasury Corporation. It is not up to the Public Trustee to set the difference between those two numbers and to make a windfall profit. I refer the question to Ms McLaren, who is the Public Trustee, to clarify that point in more detail. Ms A.R. McLaren: The amount in question, which is interest earned by the public trustee reserves and which are also held in the common fund, are detailed on page 42 of the annual report. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: How much interest? Ms A.R. McLaren: That is the interest that is the subject of the question. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: Is that the $10 million? The CHAIRMAN: Only the member with the call may ask further questions. Members are diverging a little. The member for Nedlands may ask a further question. Ms S.E. WALKER: The amounts transferred from the common fund to the Public Trustee were $879 248, $1 632 260, and $447 810. That is detailed on pages 35 and 51 of the annual report. The amounts paid by the Public Trustee into the consolidated fund are $7 221 800, which is two figures combined, and $1 632 260. That is the explanatory note for the financials. There is surplus money. Why do the people who got the money on investment in the common fund not get any of the dividends? [7.30 pm] Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: The member is talking about the difference between the - Ms S.E. WALKER: The Public Trustee’s fee of six per cent was paid; that is, $879 248. There was then a further amount of $447 000 interest paid to the Public Trustee. Why was that extra interest paid to the Public Trustee from the common fund when the Public Trustee had already received the six per cent fee? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: Is the member talking about the $4 million difference? Ms S.E. WALKER: No. I have it broken down. The amount of $447 810 is shown on page 51 of the annual report. It says that that is interest paid to the Public Trustee. Mr A. Piper: As I understand the Public Trustee’s answer, two amounts are paid to the Public Trustee. One is a fee, and the second is interest on reserves that the Public Trustee has deposited. Ms S.E. WALKER: No. The Public Trustee deposited the $447 000 to the reserves after it was received. Mr A. Piper: I will ask Ms McLaren to discuss that. To clarify the other part of the member’s question, the member is seeking to understand why the reserves have not been distributed and what they are used for. [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E63

Ms S.E. WALKER: No. I am seeking to know why the Public Trustee gets a fee of six per cent, and then pays herself another $447 810 from the interest received from the common fund. The total interest is more than $15 million. The interest paid to the state is more than $10 million. Mr A. Piper: Yes, I understand that. The CHAIRMAN: Can we progress this? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I will ask the Public Trustee to explain it. Ms A.R. McLaren: As Mr Piper said, the $400 000-odd is the interest that is earned on the Public Trustee’s own reserves of approximately $8 million. That money is also invested. It is part of the common fund, and it earns a return. The interest on that money is added to the reserves. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: The $8 million belongs to the Public Trustee in the Public Trustee’s own right. Is that what Ms McLaren is saying? Ms A.R. McLaren: Yes. Ms S.E. WALKER: I have a further question. The CHAIRMAN: If it is a further question, it might be the member’s last further question. Ms S.E. WALKER: The $8 million is an accumulation of surplus interest from the investments in the common fund. It accumulates each year. Mr A. Piper: Yes. Ms S.E. WALKER: Instead of paying it to the people who put the money in, the Public Trustee takes it and builds up the reserves; is that right? Mr A. Piper: I am aware, for example, of one purpose to which those funds are put. The Public Trust Office owns the building in which it is located as an investment. As the owner of, and investor in, that building, it must maintain reserves for the contingent liability associated with maintenance. It has, in fact, just paid out of its reserves for a substantial upgrade of that building to maintain its value. In that sense, it has over its life maintained a form of operating reserve so that there is not a call on Treasury for the maintenance of its portfolio and the management of its business. It is not able to disburse those moneys, except with the express approval of Treasury. Ms S.E. WALKER: Of the minister? Mr A. Piper: The minister takes his advice from Treasury, and Treasury pays very close attention to the ways in which all that money is spent. It is not open to the Public Trustee, on some whim, to use that money. The way in which the interest is calculated is again subject to a recommendation from the Western Australian Treasury Corporation to provide a fair return on the common fund. The CHAIRMAN: I am willing to allow the member to ask a question at a later date. However, we will move on. Mr J.R. QUIGLEY: I refer the minister to service 4 on page 1019. Will the minister advise of further initiatives to improve offender management in the community? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: The government was elected to office in 2001. Members would have seen the Auditor General’s report that I talked about in Parliament last week. It was damning of the situation. It found that there was inadequate staffing and supervision; there was poor case management of offenders; and breach action was not being taken in a timely manner, and sometimes it was not being taken at all. Of course, the member for Hillarys would know - Mr R.F. JOHNSON: I do not know how the minister has the cheek to say that after what has happened in the past few months. The CHAIRMAN: The minister will continue, please. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: The offender program was not being properly resourced and community work was not being properly supervised or undertaken. In the four years of the Gallop government, we have introduced funding of $2 million for the world’s new best practice programs; we have employed 55 new permanent community corrections staff; we have given an effective pay rise of $6 000 a year to base-grade community corrections officers; we have required all staff to undergo national standards certification to ensure they are trained in best practice procedures; we have invested in the new professional practice standards unit; we have invested in a centralised breach unit; and we have invested in a new risk assessment model for management of offenders. The follow-up report of the Auditor General, which was tabled last week or the week before, shows how much of a turnaround the system has achieved. I am pleased to announce that we have gone even further by providing an extra 20 senior community corrections officers in this budget. Those officers will be placed in branches throughout Western Australia. They will provide supervision of staff who actively manage offenders. I am also pleased that this measure represents the final recommendation of the Skinner report. Does the member for Hillarys remember the Skinner report and what a wonderful report it was?

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Mr R.F. JOHNSON: Yes. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: We are implementing the final recommendation of that report. The management of offenders in the community is one of the most difficult areas of justice, as we all know. It involves making difficult decisions on a daily basis. It is particularly pleasing that the Auditor General has recognised that, as part of its community service, the Department of Justice now puts public safety as its main priority in managing offenders. That is a fantastic endorsement of this government’s action in making sure that community safety is its number one priority. The provision of the extra 20 senior officers is, I believe, a clear indication of how seriously this government takes its responsibility to make sure that community safety is paramount. Again I thank the Auditor General for highlighting such a great effort by this government. Ms J.A. RADISICH: I refer to page 1030. My question relates to offender management, under service 5. Obviously, the community is very concerned about juvenile offenders - in particular, repeat juvenile offenders. What programs are in place to prevent juvenile offenders from reoffending? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I know that this area is very important to the member. We have all heard the disheartening stories about young people repeatedly committing serious offences in the community. Clearly, the regular programs are not working for that group of offenders. That is why we are trying something new. Since 2004 the Department of Justice has been successfully running multi-systemic intensive supervision programs in Midland, Cannington and Mirrabooka. Members of the opposition should listen to this because it is really important. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: It is a dorothy dixer. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I am sure the member can learn. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: Just give the member for Swan Hills the page number. The CHAIRMAN: I ask the minister to finish the answer, please. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: The intensive supervision program is the first of its kind in Australia, and targets the most serious repeat juvenile offenders with extensive offending histories. Complex social circumstances contribute to, and maintain, the antisocial behaviour. The intensive supervision program is based on, and licensed by, Multisystemic Therapy Services in the United States, and has been rigorously tested. The basic principle of the program is that it recognises that any attempt to correct the offending behaviour will require a multiple approach, including family, peers, school work, and community and service providers. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: The minister reads beautifully. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I say to the member for Hillarys that this is a very important issue. The intensive supervision program staff are trained and supervised in delivering the therapy. For the first time ever, it is tailored to meet the needs of the unique cultural characteristics of Aboriginal families. We should all be interested in that. Following the success of the programs in these metropolitan areas, in September 2005 we will expand the program into Kalgoorlie, and I think that will make a helluva difference to the community there. [7.40 pm] Ms J.A. RADISICH: Can the minister tell me whether these services are provided in-house by the Department of Justice or whether they are outsourced, and does the program involve indigenous and non-indigenous reoffenders? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: Yes, it does, and this has been specifically targeted at Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal offenders. We are employing the staff, but we are paying licence fees to use the whole package. Ms J.A. RADISICH: To whom? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: To Multisystemic Therapy Services from the United States. Ms J.A. RADISICH: The department has trained officers to deliver the United States package? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: Yes, and the licence is required to use the program, which is a total basic program. Ms J.A. RADISICH: When will we see the first round of status reports or success rates from this program? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I will refer that question to Ms Tang, who has been running the whole program. Ms J.T. Tang: We have undertaken contact with about 28 families across the three areas in the metropolitan area that were identified, and another 10 families are currently being assessed. Given that the program has been in place only since November, it is very early days to make that assessment. The maximum time for any family to be involved is six months. Initial readings of the program are that there has been some progress. These are the highest risk offenders, who lead very dysfunctional lives. How the assessment is made of whether there is progress is another question. I add to the answer to the earlier question that we have had training from the American organisation, Multisystemic Therapy Services. On a weekly basis the United States also supervises each of our teams in detail as they study each of the families. Each intervention is assessed and discussed, so the integrity of the program is highly controlled, and that is [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E65 very important for the success at the end. Early indications are that we are making progress, but, again, I emphasise that these are very difficult offenders. Mr B.J. GRYLLS: I refer to page 1018. An extra $1 million has been provided over the out years for extra community-based supervisors. If an offender is sentenced to a community-based order in somewhere such as Merredin, what happens then? It has been put to me that people are sentenced to community-based orders, but because the resources and the team are not there, the sentence just lapses. Are they required to travel? Will the community-based person come out and deliver that program? I would like to know what happens in areas that are not Kalgoorlie, Geraldton or Albany. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I will refer that to Ms Tang, who will tell the member exactly what happens on the ground. Ms J.T. Tang: The community-based service covers the whole state; therefore, we are required to provide a supervision service. We cover remote areas, and staff may be required to travel 10 to 12 hours to visit and talk with remote communities about the offenders in those areas and also about supervision of the offender. In a case such as Merredin, that would be managed out of our Northam office, and there would be regular visits to Merredin. In the interim, people may phone in or, if they pass through Northam to Perth, they can report as well. Within those smaller towns we have the capacity to manage the supervision of community work directly. The orders certainly do not lapse over supervision. Every attempt is made to bring supervision to where the offender is located to ensure that the order is carried out. Mr B.J. GRYLLS: Can I get some of the records of the people travelling to Merredin? I am sure that the department has that information recorded. Can I have some idea of the interaction between the department and a town such as Merredin? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I thought the member did not have any crime in Merredin! Mr B.J. GRYLLS: Just every now and then! Ms J.T. Tang: I certainly do not have that information with me now. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: We are happy to provide that as supplementary information if it is available. The CHAIRMAN: Is the member requesting supplementary information? He can do it officially or unofficially. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: If it is available, I am happy to provide it to the member. Ms J.T. Tang: We can provide information on the level of service provided to Merredin, if we have current offenders. If we do not, obviously we do not visit. Mr B.J. GRYLLS: The point I am trying to get to is whether these people are travelling there. They are not just in Northam. I want to make sure that they are travelling there. Ms J.T. Tang: Our officers have considerable travel related to their work, which is funded and is quite an expense for us, particularly in the remote Kimberley, eastern goldfields and Pilbara areas. The CHAIRMAN: Is the member still seeking supplementary information? Mr B.J. GRYLLS: Yes. The CHAIRMAN: Is the minister prepared to provide it? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I am happy to provide it, as long as I know exactly what I will provide. Mr B.J. GRYLLS: It is about the role that the Northam office of the department plays in Merredin. Basically, I want to know how many times officers have been there. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: Is the member asking just about Merredin? Mr B.J. GRYLLS: Yes, just Merredin as an example. The CHAIRMAN: The information that will be provided is the level of service that is provided to Merredin under the community-based supervisors program. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: Yes, but on the understanding that if there are no offenders, officers will not go there. Mr B.J. GRYLLS: That is right, but obviously there have been offenders in the past. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: We will give the member as much information as we can about Merredin. [Supplementary Information No A18.] Mr R.F. JOHNSON: I return to my colleague’s question about the Public Trustee. I want to ask a question in very simple terms. A person is paid $5 million after a compensatable claim for a road traffic accident or some other form of accident. Very often the courts will dictate that that money go to the Public Trustee for the Public Trustee to administer. How much interest will that person receive from the money invested and how much will that person have to pay the Public Trustee for handling that money?

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Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: Six per cent is the commission. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: However, six per cent is not earned on the money. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: Sorry; six per cent of the interest. I will ask Ms McLaren, the Public Trustee, to answer that question more specifically. Ms A.R. McLaren: The fees at the Public Trust Office are very difficult and complicated. Virtually all our fees are set in either the Public Trustee Act or the regulations to the act. The major fee for a court trust would be 1.25 per cent and that would be a one-off, up-front fee. That would cover most services for the life of that particular client. With a court trust of the order of $5 million, or for most purposes anything over a quarter of a million dollars, very little would be invested in the common fund. The court would allow the Public Trustee to invest that money outside the common fund. A financial planner would be engaged and the client would have a portfolio of investments across the broad range of investments that would be selected in accordance with the prudent person principle of investment. In the common fund would really only be sufficient cash to meet that client’s expenditure needs for perhaps about 12 months. This is sometimes difficult to determine with a new client, because frequently there is a house to be built, a car to be bought and past gratuitous services to be paid to carers and family members who have devoted perhaps five, 10 or even 15 years of work to maintain that person without any recompense. Quite a bit of budgeting goes on. Of the income earned by the investments, regardless of whether it is in the common fund or an external investment, there is a charge of 6.6 per cent and that goes on for the life of the trust. There is no charge on capital appreciation, there is no charge for standard legal fees, there is no transaction fee and there is no hourly fee for individual services. The only other fees are for financial planning and for the preparation of tax returns. There may be one or two other small fees that I have missed, but I believe that covers the vast majority of fees. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: To clarify, is the minister saying that if the common fund yields five and a half per cent and the outside investments yield six per cent, the Public Trustee will charge six and a half per cent of the interest earned? [7.50 pm] Ms A.R. McLaren: Yes. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: That is what I said to the member earlier, but I was happy for the Public Trustee to answer the question. Ms S.E. WALKER: I refer again to the same dot point. I will use round figures. The Public Trustee invests $250 million of people’s money in the common fund, and Treasury uses that money. In 2004, $15 million was received in interest. The people who invested money in the fund received only a portion of that amount; they got $10 million or two-thirds of the interest received on their money. The Public Trustee took six per cent in fees, which goes back to the WA Treasury, and 11 per cent, or $1.6 million, in surplus common fund interest, which also went back to Treasury. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: It went to the reserve. Ms S.E. WALKER: I am told that it goes back to Treasury. The Public Trustee then took $447 000 to build up a cash reserve, which is now about $13 million. I am referring to vulnerable and disabled people. Why are they not getting a bigger slice of the cake? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I ask the Public Trustee to explain what happens with the other $4 million. Ms A.R. McLaren: I will attempt to do so. First, the fees charged for the common fund or in external investments are set in legislation or by regulation. Ms S.E. WALKER: I am talking about the interest. Ms A.R. McLaren: The only discretionary amount is the interest rate that is paid, which is set by the minister on my recommendation. The fee is estimated to be 1.02 per cent in 2004-05, which is the differential on the interest. That means that clients in the common fund are losing very little. In fact, they are losing about the amount that they would pay if they put their money into a cash management trust. Mr J.R. QUIGLEY: I refer the minister to page 1019 and service 4 regarding the management of adult offenders. I ask the minister to advise of the progress of the Boronia Pre-release Centre for Women. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I thank the member for the question. This matter is very dear to my heart. In the early days, the opposition did not think it was a good idea, but they now understand what a wonderful facility it is. Ms S.E. WALKER: What does the community think? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: When the community sees the outcomes, I think it will also think it is a wonderful idea. As members are aware, Boronia Pre-release Centre for Women celebrated its first anniversary this year. It has been successful in tackling the management of women offenders. Through our efforts to restore the balance in the prison system, it is necessary to focus and build on ideas that work. This is clearly one that does. I congratulate all who have been involved with it. The aim of the prison system is to provide community and staff safety and, of course, the rehabilitation of prisoners. Boronia enjoys a record that is not enjoyed by any other prison in Western Australia. I [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E67 know that it is early days yet and that we need to be careful. However, there have been no escapes, no serious incidents, no assaults on staff and no attempted suicides by any of the prisoners. In addition, the random drug tests that have been conducted have not returned one positive result. That is a credit to whoever put together this program. Initial advice from the Department of Justice indicates that the reoffending rate for women from Boronia Pre-release Centre is less than half the statewide rate of 45 per cent. The value of community work undertaken by prisoners over the past 12 months totals $52 000. The women on-site are all employed, and their employment and training is linked with real jobs in the community. Again, that is of great benefit to the whole community. I say to the member for Hillarys that it is a great outcome. I know that some people were sceptical, especially those from the member’s side of politics. However, other jurisdictions are looking at this prison and saying that it is clearly a way to do things in the future. A number of prisoners who have been released from Boronia have obtained employment through the link they were given with real jobs. All women on-site are encouraged to enrol in education courses. The current level of participation in education courses is 80 per cent and they cover a variety of subjects, including basic literacy and numeracy, computer skills, small business management - it is a pity that the member for Vasse is not here, as I am sure that he would be interested in encouraging some more small businesses - Aboriginal studies and driver training, as well as traineeships in hospitality and horticulture. In short, Boronia is an outstanding example of a prison delivering a benefit to the community and to prisoners through rehabilitation. The level of staff safety is fantastic. It is an excellent outcome all round. We should look at implementing this system in other locations. More importantly, it shows that with cooperation and by thinking outside the square, a fantastic outcome can be achieved. Mrs J. HUGHES: I refer to page 1027 and the item on offender management under service 4. My question is also for the benefit of the member for Hillarys. What is being done to address the escape of prisoners, particularly high-risk prisoners from minimum-security prisons? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: This is a question that I need to - Mr R.F. JOHNSON: It really becomes an abuse of this process when dorothy dixers are asked all the time. Ms J.A. RADISICH: Count how many opposition and government questions have been asked. The CHAIRMAN: Members, can we move forward? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: The issues that have been raised tonight must be highlighted. The opposition would never ask me those questions. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: Give a brief ministerial statement in Parliament. The CHAIRMAN: I ask the minister to address the question. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO I apologise, Mr Chairman. In the nine months to 31 March 2005, 90 per cent of escapes from prisons were from minimum-security prisons. Although any escape is unacceptable, I am pleased to say that the number of escapes is on a downward trend. In 1998-99, during the term of the previous coalition government, there were 100 escapes. That can be compared with 40 escapes in 2004-05. I will follow the precedent set by some of my fellow ministers and show members a nice graph. The graph shows that in 1995-96, the rate was 2.95, and that it fell to 1.42 in 2004-05. Any escape is unacceptable, so we need to work on that. The government is doing that. Wooroloo and Karnet are the minimum-security prison farms in the metropolitan area. When they were built they were situated in relatively isolated locations. Ms J.A. RADISICH: Wooroloo still is. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I agree. However, it is getting closer than it was. Ms J.A. RADISICH: It is not moving. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: The community is moving towards it. The CHAIRMAN: Can we move forward? [8.00 pm] Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: Those prisons are now located closer to large communities; therefore, the safety of the community needs to be addressed. In keeping with that commitment, the government will invest $10.5 million in constructing perimeter fencing around these prisons. That move is long overdue. The perimeter works have commenced, including site reviews, fence alignments, costings, preliminary design and all the things that go with that. Following a request for tenders, consultants are now being engaged to undertake the detailed work. The government is committed to restoring the balance. Having fences around these prisons will not only reduce the number of escapes but also, and more importantly, provide the community with a feeling of safety. It should have been done earlier. I understand that, when the opposition was in government, it considered that, if a fence was put around a prison, that prison was no longer considered minimum security. That concept has gone. Boronia clearly shows that there can be a fence around a prison and it is still a minimum-security prison and it will achieve great outcomes. This will also occur at Karnet and Wooroloo. It will give the community much more confidence in the system. We can still run the

E68 [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] rehabilitation programs out of those prisons. It is a great move and, hopefully, by Christmas, both minimum-security prisons will be surrounded by security fences. The CHAIRMAN: We are in danger of having policy statements from both sides of the house. I ask members to keep their questions and answers fairly brief. Mrs J. HUGHES: My question is related to this issue. Are we identifying the high-risk prisoners and finding them alternative accommodation? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: The classification of prisoners and where they can be moved to is part of the Mahoney inquiry brief. Already we have made decisions about moving some prisoners that were intended to be classified in that area back into that system. The Mahoney inquiry will give us the framework on how to classify prisoners. Obviously that will lead to an improvement in the process. That inquiry will report in October and it will form part of a blueprint for the future, which includes prison classification, security requirements, the safety of staff and, more importantly, the safety of the community, which comes first with this government. Mr B.J. GRYLLS: I have a further question. The CHAIRMAN: My understanding of standing orders is that only the member asking the question can ask a further question. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: Members should be given some leeway. The CHAIRMAN: I will do so, as long as both sides are happy with that. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I am happy. Mr B.J. GRYLLS: The minister said he hoped the fences would be up around Karnet and Wooroloo by Christmas. However, on page 1018 reference is made to the Karnet and Wooroloo fences and of the $10 million the minister referred to, only $681 000 is allocated this year. Over the next four years only half of the $10 million is allocated. Would the minister explain how that work will be done? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I will hand over to the Director General. Mr A. Piper: That line item refers to the recurrent costs associated with putting the fencing in, not the capital. Clearly the fencing is not just a fence - it has detection systems and cameras associated with it and there are additional recurrent costs associated with monitoring the enhanced security around the perimeter of those prisons. What the member sees there is the flow of recurrent costs, post construction. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: The money is allocated and the fences will be up by Christmas, with fingers crossed. It is 3.5 kilometres of fence. It is a helluva lot of fence. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: I refer to page 1031, advocacy, guardianship and administration services. Do we have anyone from the Guardianship and Administration Board here tonight, other than the Office of Public Advocate? Mr A. Piper: As the member is aware, the functions of the guardianship board have been designated under recent legislation as part of the State Administrative Tribunal. The State Administrative Tribunal is a judicially managed body, like a court, and is independent from the department in its decision making. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: From what department? Mr A. Piper: From any department and from the Parliament as well. The guardianship board does not appear in the same way as the courts do not appear before Parliament with their estimates. The State Administrative Tribunal has the status of a court. The president of the State Administrative Tribunal is a Supreme Court judge and it is neither appropriate nor possible for that person to be in attendance tonight. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: We can ask questions about it because it comes under the Minister for Justice. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: The member can ask questions only about the structure, not the operations. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: I refer again to page 1031. Perhaps I can be given some answers, because I have a bit of a concern, and so do others, that the guardianship board is sometimes seen purely as a rubber stamp of the Office of the Public Advocate because the guardianship board will only differ from the recommendations put forward by the Office of the Public Advocate in three per cent of cases. I have to tell members that, when I raised this matter with the chairman of the guardianship board, he would not believe it until I showed him the facts and then he had to believe it. Is that still the system? If it is, it gives a clear impression, which I think would be perfectly forgivable, to anybody to say it appears like a rubber-stamping machine of the Office of the Public Advocate. Mr A. Piper: I am happy to comment generally on the change to the State Administrative Tribunal. Clearly, in creating the State Administrative Tribunal under judicial supervision and putting guardianship matters as a division of the tribunal, we now have as a structure a District Court judge who is designated in that area and a senior member who runs most of the guardianship matters under the supervision of a Supreme Court judge. Philosophically, what we now have is a highly independent structure with its own internal review. We are not dealing with a board that was somewhat [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E69 off to the side. I would not want to comment at all on the performance of the board. It was independent under the act. The whole thrust of the State Administrative Tribunal is to provide a strong independent body, not only in this area but also in the decision-making capability. My understanding from watching the administration of the State Administrative Tribunal is that it is putting its own stamp on the way it is running hearings. I would not have any reason at all to impugn either the State Administrative Tribunal or to be concerned about its future direction. I would be very confident that we now have in place, through the State Administrative Tribunal, something that is very independent with the status of a court and with the resources to consider these matters on their merits. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: For how long has it been running under the State Administrative Tribunal? Mr A. Piper: The State Administrative Tribunal commenced operation on 1 January this year, so a little less than six months. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: Would the minister supply me with, by way of supplementary information, the number of applications of guardianship that have gone before the new system of SAT since January? Also, how many times has that particular body rejected the recommendations from the Office of the Public Advocate for somebody applying for guardianship? Mr A. Piper: I am happy to provide that as supplementary information. I make the comment generally though that the Office of the Public Advocate is not the only party represented in guardianship matters. There are other guardianship matters that are taken independently of the State Administrative Tribunal. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: What other matters are taken independently? Mr A. Piper: It is possible for a family, for example, to have its own legal representation to take a matter to the State Administrative Tribunal without the Office of the Public Advocate being engaged. The Public Advocate is present. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: The Office of the Public Advocate is not engaged by the family. In the past it has been engaged by the guardianship board. Mr A. Piper: Not in all matters. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: Perhaps I can be told which ones it has not been engaged in by the guardianship board. [8.10 pm] Ms M. Scott: Perhaps I could respond to the member. Mr Piper is correct. The Office of the Public Advocate is not involved in all applications before the State Administrative Tribunal. Last year, in 2003-04, I was involved in approximately 40 per cent. This year I expect that to be significantly less. It is only certain matters that the tribunal refers to my office to undertake an investigation that I become involved with. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: Okay, but that does not alter the question that I asked. The CHAIRMAN: Will the minister provide that supplementary information? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: If we have access to those recommendations, because that is private. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: The minister can, because I asked a question on notice about 18 months ago and the Public Advocate is aware of that. It was perfectly available. That is where I got the three per cent figure from. The CHAIRMAN: Is the minister able to provide that information? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: If we are able to, we will provide it. [Supplementary Information No A19.] Ms S.E. WALKER: I will continue with the Guardianship and Administration Board on page 1031. That bill was introduced because the then minister believed that there should be a balance between a business and a compassionate approach. As I understand it, a new business model will be introduced by the Public Trustee and some of the minister’s roles will be removed. First, will the minister confirm that? Secondly, does he think there is a conflict of interest with the new private administrators’ support team, which was originally at the Guardianship and Administration Board? A team of private people work there and if there was a private administrator, they were required to file any financial accounts to the Guardianship and Administration Board. They were not charged, but they were required to file those accounts. If the Guardianship and Administration Board thought that they were not doing a good job, it could issue a certificate of loss. That function has been transferred to the Office of the Public Trustee. The Office of the Public Trustee now audits those accounts. The team has gone across. I understand that a fee was going to be charged to private administrators originally, and that team, which is known as the PAS team, was very upset about that. This is where I believe there is a conflict of interest. The Public Trustee will now call for public administrators’ accounts, the Public Trustee will be able to accept or reject those accounts, the Public Trustee will then be able to issue certificates of loss and will then recommend to SAT that the private administrator be removed and that she, the Public Trustee - and I do not want to personalise the matter - be appointed as administrator. First, does the minister see that as a conflict of interest? Secondly, has there been a moratorium for 12 months on charging private administrators fees for auditing their financial accounts?

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Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I will get the Director General to answer that question. Mr A. Piper: If I can attempt to deconstruct about four or five questions, the first question relates to a comment about the Guardianship and Administration Board and a new business model for the board with the Public Trustee. The Guardianship and Administration Board is now part of SAT. The new business model that the member was referring to involves the Public Trustee. Ms S.E. WALKER: I understand that. Mr A. Piper: In fact it is in almost identical terms to one that was recommended and introduced into this place six or seven years ago and it revolves around the whole - Mr R.F. JOHNSON: We do not always get things right. Mr A. Piper: It revolves around the whole issue of the capacity to make the common fund work better for its investors. Ms S.E. WALKER: But they do not get the money. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: Under the new model that is the intention. Mr A. Piper: In effect, by allowing cash investments only in that common fund it does disadvantage people, which is why, as has been indicated, for large trusts the funds are normally invested in the private market using a financial adviser, which is what we are talking about. When the Guardianship and Administration Board’s functions went to SAT, clearly there was an issue about how the private administrators were to be audited. That is not an appropriate function to sit within a court environment. The Public Trustee cannot remove a private administrator, but somebody must check that he is doing the right thing. As people would be aware, we do not get into a situation in which people’s affairs are being managed through this process unless there is some difficulty in their capacity to manage, and people in that circumstance are vulnerable. It is appropriate that there be a check on how well that is being done, and it needs to be done by somebody who has the financial skills and ability to determine whether that is being done well or not. Clearly those skills within the state are resident within the Public Trustee’s office. The specific issue about fees I am not aware of, but I will ask the Public Trustee to comment on the issue of whether fees are charged or not. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I will ask the Public Trustee to comment. Ms A.R. McLaren: First, the review of private administrators’ accounts resided with the Guardianship and Administration Board and approximately 20 per cent of those accounts were referred to the Public Trustee for review under that regime. The rationale for that was that the Guardianship and Administration Board did not have the resources or the expertise to review very large accounts. Those accounts, for a variety of criteria, the major one being the size of the estate, have always been referred to the Public Trustee for review and an hourly charge has always been made to the estate for that. After 1 January, with the introduction of the State Administrative Tribunal, all the accounts were reviewed by the Public Trustee regardless of size, and the Public Trustee continues to charge for only about 20 per cent of estates that it reviews that it would have charged for under the old regime. There is no plan to change that charging arrangement. However, I have given an undertaking to all interested parties that there will be no changes whatsoever for the first 12 months of operation and, if there were to be any changes, they would be discussed with people at the time. There are no plans to make any changes to the charges. However, it is open for discussion along with many other issues. In respect of conflict of interest, there is no power for the Public Trustee to recommend to the State Administrative Tribunal to remove an administrator. The only power that the Public Trustee has is either to allow or disallow the accounts. It is up to the State Administrative Tribunal, which knows the background to the case and is privy to a whole series of non-financial bits of information, to make a decision on whether that person is an appropriate administrator. The Public Trustee is not involved in that decision at all; does not have access to those files, would not have that information and would not know any of those things. The Public Trustee can say only whether the accounts are in order or not. The State Administrative Tribunal may decide that the accounts are not in order but that person is still an appropriate administrator. Also in respect of the conflict of interest, a change has been made following the introduction of the State Administrative Tribunal, and that is the introduction of a power to appeal the decision of the Public Trustee. In the past if the accounts were disallowed by the Guardianship and Administration Board there was no specific appeal power, but now that the Public Trustee has taken on that function an administrator can appeal that decision. [8.20 pm] Ms S.E. WALKER: Can the minister see that it is inappropriate to raise a fee for the examination of those accounts? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: We have indicated that the fee is being negotiated. However, already the fee is in place and has been talked about by advocates but the member for Nedlands tells me it is unfair. Ms S.E. WALKER: Yes, the 20 per cent, because the Guardianship and Administration Board is sending them out to be done. I have the staff newsletter with me and I understand that a private administrator support team has gone from the Guardianship and Administration Board to the Public Trustee. The staff felt very strongly about the matter and I understand they complained to the union about it originally. Can the minister see that a fee should not be paid for the examination of those private administrators’ accounts? [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E71

Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: But nothing has changed. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: It has. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: It has only gone from one entity to another. The role has not changed. Ms S.E. WALKER: No. The CHAIRMAN: We are getting somewhat bogged down here. Ms S.E. WALKER: It is an important issue, Mr Chairman, because only so many people can administer those funds. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I understand that, but they have performed the role in one entity and will perform it now in another. Nothing has changed except to whom those people are answerable, so what is the difference? Ms S.E. WALKER: I have a further question. The CHAIRMAN: The last question. Ms S.E. WALKER: When the administrator issues a certificate of loss to the State Administrative Tribunal, to whom does SAT give the account? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: SAT can either accept or reject it. Ms S.E. WALKER: If SAT accepts, to whom does it give the account to administer? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: SAT will get another administrator to look after the estate, but that does not have to be the Public Trustee. I take the member’s point. Ms S.E. WALKER: We will see. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: Obviously, the member for Nedlands and I will be watching it. Ms S.E. WALKER: I thank the minister; that is all I wanted to know. Ms J.A. RADISICH: My question relates to services 4 and 5 on page 1019. Will the minister enlighten the committee about any new or innovative programs that are or are being put in place for improving services or programs to victims of crime? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: This is an issue that is very dear to my heart. Obviously the member for Swan Hills heard the announcement today. The Gallop government is committed to ensuring that victims of crime have a strong voice and get justice. I am restoring the balance - that is my slogan and the slogan of this government. We will restore the balance in the eyes of the community. This obviously extends to the need for the voices of victims of crime to be heard. As most members know, the role of the Supervised Release Review Board is difficult and complex and it will not always make decisions that please everyone. Members should not underestimate how difficult some of its decisions are. It is important that the views of victims are taken into consideration. We are making such a decision. Last year we appointed Georgia Prideaux as a community representative on the Supervised Release Review Board. That was done basically through the back door. She was appointed as a community representative, but we want to appoint a victims’ representative. We will, therefore, add one member to the Parole Board of WA, the Supervised Release Review Board and the Mentally Impaired Defendants Review Board. I think at the same time we should consider shortening these names so that we can understand the meaning of the titles of those various boards; however, that is a side issue. It is important that we give the victims of crime the ability to have a say, and having someone on each of those boards will give them a say. Ms S.E. WALKER: You are adopting our policies. Ms J.A. RADISICH: You have had enough of your own questions. The CHAIRMAN: Thank you, members. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: This is a new and innovative minister who is going to make all these changes. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: Who is that? The CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Can we progress, please? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: We are, slowly. The CHAIRMAN: Indeed, that is correct. I ask the minister to continue his answer. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I am sorry. Seriously, having a victim on each of these boards will give victims a sense of having a direct say in the release process. Also an amendment to the legislation requiring a victim’s impact statement to be tendered to those boards is a good move. It will mean that when someone goes before one of those boards for release the victim’s impact statement will be tendered to the board and the board will take notice of that impact statement. The community expects victims to have a say, which does not necessarily mean that their say will make a difference to the outcome, but they will at least have an opportunity to influence the process, and the presence of a

E72 [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] victim’s representative on each of those boards will enhance that process. That will be done in addition to the community representatives who are already serving on those boards. As the member for Swan Hills knows, I have extended the appointment of Georgia Prideaux until this legislation goes through the Parliament. I hope the members for Nedlands and Hillarys will support this legislation so that it will have a very quick passage through the Parliament. Ms S.E. WALKER: We are going to improve it when it comes in. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: We are going to look at it when it comes in, that is for sure. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I will take that as a positive indication. We might get the legislation through the Parliament and have it in place by Christmas. If we do, it will make a helluva difference to making sure that victims of crime have a strong voice in the justice system. Ms S.E. WALKER: Which Christmas did you say? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: This Christmas. The CHAIRMAN: Let us move on, please, members. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: In doing that, we will restore the balance, which is what I want, so that victims’ rights and opinions can influence the justice process. That is what the community wants, this government is committed to doing it and today we started the process. Ms J.A. RADISICH: Will the victims’ representatives be voluntary or remunerated? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: The permanent members will be remunerated to various degrees, depending on which board they are on. There will also be deputy members who will be given power through the legislation to act in place of the permanent member when he or she is unable to act, so that there will be continuous representation from victims on those boards. Ms J.A. RADISICH: Are any counselling or support services available to victims of crime who do not essentially want to confront the perpetrators? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: That is already occurring as part of the justice process. This is more about the actual release of prisoners at a time when those three boards will have an extra member who will, hopefully, bring a different perspective but who will not necessarily make a difference to the outcome. Some people have an unrealistic expectation that all victims want to lock people away and throw away the key. I do not believe that is true. Most victims acknowledge that prisoners will come back into the community and need rehabilitation support. This is just a way of recognising that victims have an opinion and should be heard and, hopefully, that is what this measure will achieve. Mr B.J. GRYLLS: I refer to one of the major achievements for 2004-05 on page 1036, which states - Improved access to legal assistance for people in rural, regional and remote Western Australia . . . I see just above that line that full-time equivalents are budgeted to increase by 12 this year. Will the minister give me some idea of the legal aid that is provided to people in the wheatbelt? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I will handball this question to the director. This is actually not in my portfolio; it is in the Attorney General’s portfolio. However, I am happy to handball the question to the respective person from the department, George Turnbull, the Director of Legal Aid, who will be able to answer the question. Mr G. Turnbull: About 12 months ago we established an outreach service to the wheatbelt area which effectively follows the magistrates circuit, providing both duty lawyer services when the court sits and a legal advice service to people in the wheatbelt area. That seems to be working quite successfully. At this stage we have only one lawyer conducting that service, but it seems to be working well. Mr B.J. GRYLLS: Are they travelling out to the wheatbelt from the city? Mr G. Turnbull: They are indeed. Mr B.J. GRYLLS: There is no legal aid based in the wheatbelt? Mr G. Turnbull: We do not have an office based in the wheatbelt but, as I said, a lawyer travels throughout the whole wheatbelt area. [Mrs D.J. Guise took the chair.] Mr B.J. GRYLLS: I have a further question for the minister. I know it is difficult to provide legal aid in country areas but I have met a few people in my office who have been facing very serious charges and who were meeting their lawyer for the first time; it was pretty scary stuff. Perhaps the minister can consider that matter in future. [8.30 pm] Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I thank the member. That will always be a problem. Mr J.R. QUIGLEY: I refer the minister to line item service 4 on page 1019 of the Budget Statements. Over the past two years there has been a rapid rise in the prison population, which has placed pressure on prison accommodation. [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E73

What steps has the Department of Justice taken to address this issue and particularly those relating to accommodation in regional and women’s prisons in the short term? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: This is indeed a problem that we are facing. This is not a dorothy dixer. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: Yet the minister has a prepared answer for it! Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: Of course, this is a serious issue. This is one of the problems facing the justice system. As the member for Hillarys knows, the current system is operating beyond its full capacity. The prison population is projected to grow from 3 500 inmates this year to more than 4 100 by 2015. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: That is because there are a lot of fine defaulters in our prisons. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: Only for a short time. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: The government puts fine defaulters in maximum-security prisons and puts double murderers in minimum-security prisons. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: Is it not amazing that the member for Hillarys has suddenly woken up to a problem that has existed for the past 15 years! When the current Minister for Justice addresses the problem and says he will fix it after being in the job for only two months, the member for Hillarys suddenly thinks it is his problem and that he has the answers. I will fix that problem if it is the last thing I do. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: I have more faith in Bob the Builder. The CHAIRMAN (Mrs D.J. Guise): Now that I am in the chair, members will cut to the chase. Members will cut out the interjections and deal with the questions so that we might move on. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I thank the member for Hillarys for his kind words. The number of female prisoners has increased by more than 25 per cent over the past two years. The Bandyup Women’s Prison has a capacity of 146 prisoners and is currently accommodating between 155 and 165 inmates. The member for Hillarys is right: some 200 prisoners are held in prison for fine defaulting and we need to get them out of there, which we will do over time. We need to work out some schemes. We will be in a position to make an announcement on that shortly. There is also a serious under-supply of prison accommodation in the eastern goldfields and the Kimberley. Those areas have particular problems that need to be addressed in a particular manner. That is why the Kimberley custodial program is considering different ways of handling the matter. A lot more than just a prison solution is required to fix that problem. We will look at that. The Kimberley custodial committee met last Friday for the first time. It is working on strategies other than referring people to prison. The Mahoney inquiry’s recommendations have been referred to the committee because it will need to be looked at. The Department of Justice has undertaken a number of steps to alleviate the pressure by reopening some facilities that were previously closed, and by constructing new accommodation. These projects include the recommissioning of a total of 101 prison beds at the Albany, Bunbury and Wooroloo Prisons and the expansion of facilities at the Karnet Prison Farm where an extra 10 prison beds will be added. The establishment of an eastern goldfields regional work camp will accommodate another 24 prisoners and funding has been allocated to convert 40 existing special purpose beds at Acacia Prison for general use. The construction of new accommodation facilities at the Bunbury, Wooroloo and Bandyup Prisons will provide a total of 139 beds. In the longer term, the department’s capital investment plan has made provision for planning funds for the replacement of the Broome and Eastern Goldfields Prisons. That plan will address the current shortage of accommodation, and will merge over the planning period. Deficiencies have been caused by the ageing of the facilities, the overuse of prisons and outdated building designs. Buildings that are consistent with contemporary service delivery need to be provided. We need to consider that problem. It is a major problem facing this portfolio, and the government will address it. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: I refer to the first dot point under significant issues and trends on page 1017 of the Budget Statements. This point covers a multitude of matters relating to the serious sexual assault of a member of the prison staff and other things. Will the minister tell me the number of psychiatrists that write prisoner reports for the Department of Justice? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: The member for Hillarys cannot expect me to have that information to hand. That question needs to be placed on notice. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: I am sure one of the officers will know. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I am informed that a member asked a similar question in the upper house on that item. We do not have the answer available immediately, but it can be provided as supplementary information. That is the way the information was provided for the member in the upper house. We will provide the member with the number of psychiatrists. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: I would like the minister to supply by way of supplementary information the following details: the number of psychiatrists who write prisoner reports for the Department of Justice and how that number has changed over the past six years.

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Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: Does the member want a yearly breakdown, or does he want me to provide him with the current number of psychiatrists who write prisoner reports for the Department of Justice and the number who wrote reports for the department six years ago? Mr R.F. JOHNSON: I want to know how that figure has changed over the past six years. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I am not sure whether that information can be provided for six years ago. We will provide the member with an answer for how many psychiatrists are currently working in the system. Is that what the member wants? Mr R.F. JOHNSON: It would be very interesting to know how many psychiatrists are working today and writing prison reports, but I want to know how that figure has changed over a period. I have suggested six years. I do not mind if the minister wants to make it four years. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I will ask the director general. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: I want to find out whether the government has reduced the number of prison psychiatrists who write prison reports or whether it has increased the number. That is not a hard question. Mr A. Piper: Generally, we use psychiatrists who are either available out of practice from the Department of Health or who are on our staff. It is not possible to be certain at any one time whether we will be able to provide a number in the way that I think the question implied because a number of those reports relate to contract arrangements. Certainly there has been no reduction in the availability of psychiatric services. There has been no policy or other program that has said we would do less of this type of work. In effect, the figures will show the member the ebb and flow of who is employed by the Department of Health, the Department of Justice and other contracted staff. From memory, in an answer to a question asked in another place, we supplied the names of the psychiatrists who have been working with the department over some time. That group of people is fairly well known around Perth. Some work for us depending on their workload and others do not. We are happy to answer the question as best we can, but it will not be a precise number because that is not the way in which the psychiatrists are engaged. The figures will not give an indication of effort associated with producing reports of that sort. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: The question I asked was: how many psychiatrists write the prisoner reports in the Department of Justice? How many are writing them? The department must have a database with the number of psychiatric reports that are written for specific prisoners? Mr A. Piper: Within the framework that I indicated of the limitations of what the answer will tell the member, we are happy to provide that as supplementary information. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: The government will supply the member with the number of psychiatrists working in the system and who they are. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: Those who are writing prisoner reports? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: Those who are writing prisoner reports. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: I do not want to find out only how many psychiatrists are working in the system, but the number of psychiatrists who write prisoner reports. It is pretty specific. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: We understand. [Supplementary Information No A20.] Mrs J. HUGHES: I refer to the second dot point on page 1017. Reference has been made to the accommodation pressures for the increasing number of prisoners. What types of strategies are in place to address the situation regarding prison officers? [8.40 pm] Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: For the appointment of extra prison officers? Mrs J. HUGHES: Yes. There are accommodation issues. There is an increasing prisoner population. How will the prison officer levels be addressed? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: As the member is aware, there was a shortage of prison officers. Therefore, we have compressed the training of prison officers from 12 months to five months. Currently, we have employed an extra 200 prison officers. So that we get these numbers right, at December 2004 the public prison system was understaffed by more than 100 prison officers. The short-term solution was to use officers on overtime. However, that is not viable in the long term. Therefore, we decided to increase the number of prison officers that were required as soon as possible. To date, the following things have been achieved: between December 2004 and June 2005, approximately 200 new prison officers were employed in the public prisons. This covers both the shortage and the normal attrition rate of about 70 who have left the system. We needed 100 more officers, and we have 130 more in real terms. As I said, the overall training time has been reduced from 12 months to five months. That is without affecting the standards. There have [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E75 been further changes to the application method. The testing of applicants and the length of training will reduce this time even further. That will facilitate more people going through the system. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: What was that about training? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: The training period was reduced from 12 months to five months. However, we will further streamline that. The CHAIRMAN: We will move on. I give the call to the member for Nedlands. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: Hang on. I have not finished yet. The CHAIRMAN: I do not know; it sounded like a pretty good answer to me. A nice, succinct, short one would be good. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: The previous Nyandi women’s prison has now been turned into the training school for prison officers. That allows us to train more prison officers to accommodate what we need for the prison system. We are making sure that we are on top of the game. The member for Hillarys looks worried. We are also looking at a model to predict what we will need for the future. Therefore, we are working on it in three different ways. I will try to keep the answers much briefer. The CHAIRMAN: That would be good. Ms S.E. WALKER: I refer to the first item on page 1022, which refers to the extent to which the Public Trustee maintains a market share in drawing wills naming the Public Trustee as executor. The figure is 13 per cent. Under the new business model that is expected, will people be asked to pay to have their wills drawn up? I see Mr Piper nodding. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I was going to ask the Public Trustee to answer that question for the member. Ms S.E. WALKER: Has this demoralised staff at the office? I think there are about five or six people in that department. Has the wills manager left, and have the two senior wills officers left in the past three months? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I ask the Public Trustee to answer that question. Ms A.R. McLaren: I am sorry, I did not hear the first part of the question. Ms S.E. WALKER: Under the new business model, does the Public Trustee foresee charging the public for wills, bearing in mind that the office of the Public Trustee exists to often help financially disadvantaged and vulnerable people? Is there now - The CHAIRMAN: We will deal with that question first, and then we will go to a further question. Ms A.R. McLaren: The new business model would provide the power for the Public Trustee to charge for wills, but would not mandate that that occur. That would occur only with the agreement of the minister and Treasury. At the moment the Public Trustee could not charge for wills, even if the Public Trustee wanted to. That is the answer to the first part of the question. The second part of the question, if I understood it correctly, related to the staff of the wills area. This particular issue of charging for wills has been the subject of discussion in the Public Trust Office. It was a subject of discussion in 1999 when I joined the Public Trust Office. I do not believe that it has any detrimental effect on the staff. The senior wills manager has recently resigned due to ill health, after 35 years, I believe, in the Public Trust Office. Several other persons in the wills section either have retired or are ready to retire and are of retirement age. The average age is fairly high in that part of the Public Trust Office. Ms S.E. WALKER: Is the minister thinking of charging the public for the first time for wills drawn up by the Public Trustee? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: There has been a long debate about free wills. I have considered it. However, at this stage no decision has been made. I will consider it when I get the briefing. There has been a debate about whether free wills should be provided. I think there is a need to provide that service. However, I have not received the briefing paper, and no decision has been made. Mr J.R. QUIGLEY: I refer the minister to service 4 on page 1019. Shortly after the minister was appointed Minister for Justice, he commenced a schedule of statewide visits to Western Australian prisons. I ask the minister to provide an overview of the delivery of services in the prisons that he has visited. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I will try to be brief. However, I think it is important that I put on the record some of the visits that I made. Ms S.E. WALKER: We have already heard about that. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: Does the minister think that is part of this budget estimates process? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I think it is important to highlight some of the visits. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: It is an abuse of the system.

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The CHAIRMAN: If we have fewer interjections, and if the minister answers with a rapid response, we will move on. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I will be very brief. I went to Karnet Prison Farm, Casuarina Prison, Hakea Prison, Broome Regional Prison, Eastern Goldfields Regional Prison and Bandyup Women’s Prison. I spoke to a number of the staff. They raised a number of issues, especially about what happened after the Bunbury incident, which was despicable, to say the least. However, it highlighted a number of security issues for staff working on the premises, including personal alarm systems etc, which we are addressing. Hopefully we will introduce them in the near future. It also allowed me to look at some of the operational areas at the Karnet Prison Farm and also the Casuarina Prison. The staff are doing a fantastic job, sometimes in difficult circumstances. I went to Bandyup Women’s Prison, in the member for Swan Hills’ electorate. I want to congratulate the staff there for a job fantastically well done. A number of areas need to improve. However, I found that the people working in the system are absolutely committed to making sure that they deliver the best service. My role, as the new minister, is to support them by providing them with the tools that they need to do a good job. I commend Ian Johnson, who is sitting in the chamber. He is the new Acting Executive Director WA Prisons. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: My brother! Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I pity him if he is the member’s brother. Seriously, he has done a fantastic job of settling down the whole prison area and allowing some of the changes that need to be made to happen. I do not say this because a lot of the people are present; however, the support they have given to the changes that we needed to make has been fantastic. I thank all the staff for doing that. With the government and the opposition working together - we need the support of the opposition - in a positive manner for the benefit of the system, rather than the government being continually knocked by the opposition, we will restore the balance within the prison system and get a blueprint for future change that we can all be proud of and sign up to for the benefit of the whole community. I look forward to the member for Hillarys’ bipartisan support when we come up with the changes that are required. I thank the member for Hillarys. His brother is doing a wonderful job! Mr R.F. JOHNSON: I will tell him when I see him! I refer to completed works on page 1038 and to the courts system maintenance referred to under business systems. Obviously, this is to do with the courts. I had a complaint from somebody at the Broome court. Seventy people were called for jury service, and 25 of them were selected. However, there were only 25 chairs for people to sit on. The rest of the people had to sit on the floor. Does the minister think that he could find funding in his budget for a few extra chairs for the Broome court so that those people who are called up for jury service can sit on a chair rather than on the floor? [8.50 pm] Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I am sure that the director general has heard the member’s comments and will have a look at the issue. I do not think it falls strictly within my portfolio, but I am sure that the director general understands the urgency of the matter and will give it due consideration. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: Due consideration! Why does the minister not just say that he will do it? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I am not sure that the member can count. Before I commit to doing something, I want to make sure that the member can count. Ms J.A. RADISICH: I refer the minister to the major policy decisions listed on page 1018. The third of the decisions made prior to the state election is the response to the Hooker inquiry. There are some budget allocations, as well as money in the forward estimates. My question relates to the escape of prisoners from the Supreme Court in June 2004 and the subsequent Hooker review. What internal Department of Justice reviews have been put in place and, more importantly, what measures have been put in place to improve the management of court security? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: The department has established the court security directorate with the responsibility to assess and address threats to all court security, including all in-court and court custody matters. That represents a major improvement in that it brings the management of all aspects of court security into a single business structure. The director is also responsible for liaison across judicial custodial operational intelligence functions, including the Western Australia police state security unit and the state intelligence services. The following achievements have been completed to date: audits of all major and regional court custody centres; the enhancement of facilities in which security deficits were identified, including additional closed-circuit television coverage and enhancement of the security features in sally areas and sally ports at Broome and Kalgoorlie prisons; the establishment of a program of operational reviews; the introduction of an operational strategic risk management process; the availability of threat assessments to inform executive decision making; and, finally, the commencement of ongoing liaison and consultation with the Western Australia Police Service and other agencies about the emergency management and contingency arrangements. The member can see that we have done a helluva lot in this area. Ms S.E. WALKER: My question relates to the Attorney General’s portfolio. I understand that a lot of issues that fall within his portfolio have been incorporated in the minister’s portfolio. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: If the question relates to division 61, I will refer it to the appropriate officer. [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E77

Ms S.E. WALKER: I refer to the judiciary and judicial support, which is referred to on page 1022. The Chief Justice is absent from the court at the moment. How long will he be away for, and what measures have been put in place to ensure that the workload of the court is looked after? The Chief Justice has the role of Lieutenant Governor. He also has an administrative role at the court. It is a very complex role. Will the minister put on another judge? What has been put in place? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I refer that question to the director general, who will give the member better clarification. Justice Murray is the Acting Chief Justice. I will allow the director general to expand on the other functions that are being taken up. Mr A. Piper: As the minister has indicated, the role of Chief Justice during the leave of absence of Justice Malcolm is being undertaken by Justice Murray. I am sure the member will be aware that he has been a keen administrator within the court and, I am sure, will very ably fulfil that role. I am not able to comment on what other contingent arrangements have been made, but I am aware that the Solicitor General, the court and the Attorney General have that issue under active review and will ensure that the function of the court is adequately maintained. Ms S.E. WALKER: I merely want to know whether there is any provision for a commissioner to be appointed. The Supreme Court has a heavy workload. What provision has been made? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: That question will need to be answered by the Attorney General. The member might have to put that question on notice, because I cannot ask a question of another minister through this process. The Chief Justice is on leave, and when people are on leave, there are processes for accommodating that situation. It is not something new. It may be extended leave, but it is still leave. That is a normal process of the court. Mr J.R. QUIGLEY: I refer to page 1028 and the re-entry program under service 4. How has the re-entry initiative benefited victims? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: This is one of those really good stories. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: Is it a bedtime story? The CHAIRMAN: It will be a short story! Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: It will be nice and short. This is important for the opposition as well. The re-entry justice mediation program was initiated in the Central Law Courts in May 2003 as a court-based program to enable an immediate response to major referrals for victim-offender mediation. The program will provide restorative justice to victims by utilising measures such as empowering victims to be involved in justice, because generally victims feel excluded and even further victimised, and by helping the victims work through the offence by talking it through with the offender. This often empowers them. Apologies and restitution can also often be negotiated through this process. Prior to this program, the rate of referral was very low; for example, in 2001-02 there were only 11 referrals and from 2002 to May 2003 there were only three. However, since May 2003 there have been 199 referrals through court 37. Member for Hillarys, this is important. Why does the member not like good news? Is there a problem? Following the success of the program at the Central Law Courts, it was expanded in 2003-04 to Rockingham, Mandurah, Bunbury, Busselton, Hedland, Karratha, Roebourne, Joondalup, Midland and Geraldton. These locations now have a total of 916 victim referrals, and 35 per cent of those victims receive either face-to-face or indirect mediation. There is funding in the 2005-06 budget for a new position to expand to two further courts, the Fremantle and Kalgoorlie courts; a support position for the program based in Perth; and the addition of a further senior mediation officer to provide support and supervision within the victim mediation unit. The program will be expanded to include Fremantle in July 2005 and Kalgoorlie in August 2005. I think it is a great idea. It makes victims appreciative of the fact and it restores the balance, which is what this government is about. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: How many Department of Justice employees have been seconded to the Mahoney inquiry? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I will ask the director general to answer that question. I think the Mahoney inquiry has about 22 staff but I am not sure how many are from the department. The CHAIRMAN: I am sure that the member for Hillarys has referred to a certain page of the budget papers. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: Absolutely. The CHAIRMAN: Which page would that be? Mr R.F. JOHNSON: It is the first page of the general budget for the justice department. [9.00 pm] Mr A. Piper: It is a simple answer: one. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: One staff member of the Department of Justice is seconded to the Mahoney inquiry? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: Yes. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: That is interesting. It was a very simple question and a very simple answer; that is fine.

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The CHAIRMAN: I like those; they are very good. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: I am very good at asking those questions. Can I ask another quick one, then, Madam Chairman? Ms S.E. WALKER: No! Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: Opposition members are fighting among themselves about who will ask the next question! Mr R.F. JOHNSON: My question is, to some extent, on the same subject; it is all to do with the Department of Justice. The CHAIRMAN: Nice try! I will come back to the member for Hillarys. Ms S.E. WALKER: When will the first brick be laid for the new court complex in the central business district? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I ask the director general to answer the question. Mr A. Piper: As the member would be aware, the contractor is already on-site and is undertaking a preliminary clean- up of the site. If the member has been past the site, she will have noticed the site sheds and the clean-up activity. I could be facetious and say that I do not think that there will be any bricks in the building; it will be made mainly of concrete and glass. However, I would not dare give an answer that was that disrespectful. We are talking about construction commencing this month; we expect it to occur in the next week or so. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: I have another simple question. As I understand it, there is now a six-week training period for prison officers. That is inadequate. I believe that it used to take three months. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: It took 12 months and is now down to five months. The director general would like to answer the question. Mr A. Piper: The period the minister referred to is the total recruitment, selection and training period, which was 12 months from inception to finalisation. The training component took 12 weeks and now takes 11 weeks. It has been consolidated somewhat. To clarify the situation for the member, I understand that court security officers, who do not have to be trained to the same level as prison officers, are trained for approximately six weeks. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: So the six-week training period is just for court security officers? Mr A. Piper: That is my understanding. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: For prison officers, the training period is 11 weeks, reduced from 12? Mr A. Piper: I understand that the department’s training program is now 11 weeks. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: It was an easy question, with an easy answer. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: We are trying to make sure that we have enough staff to cover the numbers. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: Why does the director general answer my questions and the minister answer the questions asked by his colleagues? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I am happy for the director general to answer the member’s questions. The CHAIRMAN: That is the end of my call sheet for questions unless somebody has any further questions on division 61. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: I have loads of them. The CHAIRMAN: I thought that members might like to move on to another division. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: We will soon do that, because I realise that my colleagues want to ask some small business questions. The CHAIRMAN: In that case, I will give the call to the members for Hillarys, Nedlands and Mindarie. Ms J.A. RADISICH: Madam Chairman, the member for Kingsley had her hand up several times tonight, which you might not have seen. The CHAIRMAN: I did not. I will first give the call to the member for Kingsley and then to the member for Hillarys. Mrs J. HUGHES: I refer to service 4, and the first dot point on page 1028. What is being done to develop and implement culturally appropriate justice programs for remote Aboriginal communities? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: Following the findings of the Gordon Inquiry into Response by Government Agencies to Complaints of Family Violence and Child Abuse in Aboriginal Communities, the government committed to improving services to Aboriginal communities, especially those in remote areas. The regional programs development officers have commenced working with Aboriginal communities in the Kimberley, Pilbara, mid west and goldfields to identify, develop and deliver programs to address issues of violence, substance abuse, sexual offending and relapse prevention. To be successful, it is important that these programs meet both the community’s and the government’s expectations. That is why the officers have been working in close consultation with Aboriginal communities and service providers to [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E79 ensure that the programs are culturally appropriate before they are piloted. The government is also looking at the structure of the Kimberley custodial plan, which also works in with Aboriginal issues, because things need to be done in a different way. When I visited Broome Regional Prison I was horrified to find that about 98 per cent of the prison population were Aboriginals. I spoke to some of the people involved in that prison. The systems that are in place are not working; we need to do things differently. I have committed our government to making sure that we try to resolve that problem in a collaborative way with the community, because this will never be achieved without getting the government, the department and the communities to take responsibility for what is happening. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: I refer to the new works listed on page 1038, and specifically to juvenile detention centres. During the state election campaign, two juvenile detention centres were promised in the marginal seats of Geraldton and Kalgoorlie. The budget shows funding of only $250 000 per centre in 2006-07. Given that the cost of each detention centre has been put at $12 million, when will those centres be available for use? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: The member needs to understand that the government has approved the project officer, who must work in consultation with the communities to resolve all the issues, such as the siting of the centres, the required approvals and so forth. Those issues must be discussed with the communities. It is not in this financial year but in the next that the appropriation will be commenced to provide for something on the ground; in other words, buildings. They will probably be ready within 24 to 36 months. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: Probably just before the next election. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: The member could not argue about the two locations of Geraldton and Kalgoorlie. They are two areas that need detention centres. The opposition and the government both recognise the need for detention centres in those areas. The government will build those centres. The resources have been allocated and the project manager appointed. It is now a matter of going through the necessary processes. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: I would like some detention centres to be developed further north as well. Is the government considering doing that? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: The member understands that this is a major capital program. I understand that we need to look at custodial areas further north. That is being done through a custodial plan. There may be a need to build another remand centre, but I would like to build the two to which the government is committed; that is, Geraldton and Kalgoorlie. There will already be a fairly long lead time. The Mahoney inquiry will examine future infrastructure needs, including for prisons and detention centres. That inquiry will hopefully identify long-term needs for capital expenditure for such things as remand centres. I would like to wait for that plan. As I said earlier, it will hopefully present us with a blueprint for the future to which we can all sign up. This is above politics. If a plan can be developed that both sides of politics can adopt, some commitment can be made to provide infrastructure to solve this problem. It will be a problem for whichever side of politics is in power. There will never be enough facilities for a state as diverse as Western Australia. Money has been provided in the budget for pre-planning for the Geraldton and Kalgoorlie centres. Consultation will occur. The centres will be built within 24 to 36 months. The member knows as well as I do that these things are controversial and that the time frames might expand. The government has committed to that process and has put money in the budget to do the preliminary work. The project officer has been appointed. We now need a reference group; that will happen. Ms S.E. WALKER: I refer to the item on the Criminal Injuries Compensation Act on page 1017. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I think that comes under the Attorney General, but I am happy to handball the member’s question. Ms S.E. WALKER: Why is the chief assessor of the Office of Criminal Injuries Compensation not here? Could she not come? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: The chief assessor is not here, but we are not sure who that is at this point. Ms S.E. WALKER: It is Helen Porter. In her report to Parliament last year she mentioned the inadequacy of the client reception area at the office, particularly for people who are traumatised or suffer from an intellectual disability or injury and who require confidential, patient and sensitive handling. She said that approval had been given to plans to create a reception area and a secure interview room, and hoped that work would commence on the first stage of the building work in the first quarter of 2004. Has that been done? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: We are not aware of that matter. If the member wants an answer to be provided, we can do that, but at this stage no-one here is aware of whether that has happened. We will provide the answer to the member by way of supplementary information if she would like. Ms S.E. WALKER: Yes. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: We will supply by way of supplementary information an answer to whether the budget allocation has been expended for the new reception area and rooms for the Office of Criminal Injuries Compensation. [Supplementary Information No A21.] The appropriation was recommended.

E80 [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005]

[9.10 pm] Division 63: Small Business Development Corporation, $8 627 000 - Mrs D.J. Guise, Chairman. Mr J.B. D’Orazio, Minister for Small Business. Mr G. Etrelezis, Managing Director. Mr R. Buttsworth, Director, Corporate Services. Mr J. Lamb, Policy Adviser, Office of the Minister for Small Business. Mr T.R. BUSWELL: My questions relate to page 1052, significant issues and trends that refer to boosted confidence in the small business sector and positive economic conditions. I am interested to know what base figures were used to deduce that small business confidence in Western Australia is rising. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: The member would be well aware that the profitability of small business in Western Australia is the highest in Australia. Also, the number of small business per capita in Western Australia is higher than in any other state. Added to that, and more importantly, the Gallop Labor government underpins the economy of Western Australia. The economy of Western Australia is strong and is the powerhouse of Australia. Obviously that gives confidence to small business. I understand that small business in this state realises that the Gallop government is providing the framework for it to succeed. Mr T.R. BUSWELL: I draw the minister’s attention to the Sensis small business index, a study that was highlighted to me on my visit to the Small Business Development Corporation. This index indicates that the confidence of small and medium enterprises in Western Australia had actually fallen. The latest survey indicates that in the May quarter that confidence was at its lowest level for at least a year, probably longer. The comment is made that it has been trending down. It also states that SMEs recorded negative growth in employment and capital expenditure had decreased. The minister might be interested to know that support for the Western Australian government declined sharply during that quarter to its lowest level since August 2003. Also, it was reported that the Western Australian government was the second least supported government by SMEs. My question is: if that is the factual information underpinning this, my information is that this is generally regarded as being the peak survey of business confidence in the SME sector. How can that statement be made, and what justification is there for the accuracy of the statement? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: That is one survey, but there are a number of surveys. I will point out some of the facts. There are 130 000 to 140 000 small businesses, depending on whose figures are used. The previous survey indicated there were 139 000 and the figure is now down to 130 000. Someone is obviously not counting correctly, because we could not lose 9 000 businesses in such a period. However, the survey the member referred to covered 225 businesses out of that many in Western Australia. To make a definitive statement about small business from that survey, in my opinion, is irrelevant. That survey also indicates that Western Australian small business has the highest profitability of any small businesses in Australia, and we have the highest number of small businesses per capita in Australia. The bottom line is that business in WA is prospering, sales are increasing and profitability is the best in Australia. Small business is doing very well in this state. The Small Business Development Corporation does its part in supporting that, and I will ask Mr Etrelezis to add any further matters in support of the small business sector. Mr G. Etrelezis: A very good indicator that small business always uses is the unemployment figure. It is fair to say that small business is certainly enjoying a period of exceptional growth. It is facing a very good indicator of often not having enough staff to complete the work demand, especially in the construction industry and trades areas throughout the state. That is always a good indicator. The record low unemployment rate is also a very good indicator of small business activity. Allied with that, of course, are the growth rate figures, and even those that are reasonably assumed by the Department of Treasury and Finance in its budget forecasts indicate that we are in for a reasonable period of growth during 2005-06 to complement that which we had in 2004-05. Mr T.R. BUSWELL: I draw the minister’s attention to the Australian Bureau of Statistics figures relating to the number of small businesses in Western Australia. The minister referred to there being 139 000 small businesses in Western Australia. That, of course, was as at June 2003. From June 2003 to June 2004, the number of small businesses in WA declined from 139 500 to 134 000, which is a drop of four per cent. During the same period the number of small businesses registered in Australia rose by 7.5 per cent. Again, does the minister see some inconsistency in the figures produced by reputable statistics-gathering agencies, such as ABS and Sensis, to refute his statement that small business in Western Australia has never had it better? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: As I indicated, all sorts of people are estimating figures between 130 000 and 140 000. Both of those figures are in line with that estimate. I understand there is a disagreement with the figures. I know that the director has made a presentation about how those numbers are estimated and I will hand over to him for a further explanation. Mr G. Etrelezis: The number of small businesses in Australia has been in dispute since the last official survey was completed in 2001. Since then the ABS discontinued the survey it used at that time, which was featured in Small [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E81

Business in Australia, and the most recent survey it has used - the only one we can rely on - is a labour force survey in which it asked the occupants of households whether they owned a small business or not and deducted it from there. Hence, the figures that were used in the count referred to by the member are an estimate and they range from 124 000 to 144 000. All we can go on is a range. If we look at the figure in more detail, it ranges. We could have either a decrease or an increase based on the figure of 139 000. More importantly, what is good news is that, for the first time, the ABS - we have been strongly advocating this to the commonwealth government - will try to count the number of small businesses more accurately rather than the views of householders by going to ABN data. That will be completed on 24 June this year. We are looking forward with great anticipation to the outcome of the first attempt at counting the number of businesses in Australia, probably more accurately than for the whole of the time that we have ever bothered to count, and, more importantly, since the last recognised survey in 2001. [9.20 pm] Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: To add to that, anecdotally we can see that small business is doing really well. On Sunday I was talking to some people in the building trade. They are telling me they cannot complete a house within 12 months because they cannot get the tradespeople and workers. They are basically setting a limit on the maximum number of dwellings they can build, because they cannot meet the demand. That is rippling through the whole economy. Western Australia is the place to be. Small business is benefiting from that, and it will continue to benefit over the years because of the huge amount of investment in this state. The member asked the question. I am giving the member the answer. Mr J.R. QUIGLEY: I refer to page 1060, details of controlled grants and subsidies. I note the state government is continuing to provide strong support to the business enterprise centre network through operational grants, and that funding for the network has surged to $2.748 million in 2005-06. Given that the BEC network is currently under review, can the minister explain this increase in funding? Importantly, can the minister also advise when he will make a announcement about the proposed future shape of the business enterprise centre network? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I thank the member for the question. I had expected the member for Vasse to ask me this question. Mr T.R. BUSWELL: The minister gave it to the member for Mindarie to read out! Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: The member for Vasse actually asked me this question in the Parliament last week! The budget allocation of $2.748 million includes the base grant for the BECs of $2.28 million. That has not changed. That will continue. The government has also allocated an extra $400 000 for the rejigging of the BEC program. That is to implement the outcomes of the review. Some other savings that the department has indicated have also been added to that sum to facilitate the BEC review. The BEC review has now been going for a couple of years. We are almost at the point at which we will be making a decision. The Small Business Development Corporation Board has considered the matter and referred it to me, and I have referred it back to the board for more consideration about what the final structure will look like. I want to make sure that the structure we put in place will support small business to prosper. The idea of the BECs being there only to provide support in a particular location or town is a thing of the past. We need to look at how the BECs can best supply the needs of small business. The BEC program was set up to prosper small business. Hopefully the new structure will enable the BECs to do that. I hope to be in a position either later this month or early next month to release the proposed outline for the BECs into the future. There will then be a period for comment from interested parties. I want to be in a position to make the final decision by August so that by 1 January next year the new BEC network will be in place, with all the necessary support structures to ensure that the BECs are in a good position to support small business. As I indicated to the Parliament last week, we have extended the current BEC program to the end of December. That will provide some certainty. The amount of time between August and 1 January will allow the BECs to get themselves in a position, with the right structure, to adopt the new arrangements, which will also be in place by 1 January next year. The proposed frame work will result in BECs that are stronger and better placed to meet the needs of small business and help small business to prosper through the allocation of this funding to the BEC program. Mr T.R. BUSWELL: I merely pick up on a comment by the minister about the days when we can expect business enterprise centres to be present in every town to provide a community aspect. Am I to take it, therefore, by deduction that the number of BECs in the existing network will be cut back as a result of the review, based on the statement the minister just made? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: At this stage I am not going to give a - Mr T.R. BUSWELL: The minister just indicated that. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: There will be a rationalisation and, where there is excess capacity, it will be relocated to a point where it can provide the best support to small business. Mr T.R. BUSWELL: Do you mean yes? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I ask the member to wait until the structure comes out. The indication to me from the Small Business Development Corporation board was that we need some dramatic rationalisation. I do not quite share that

E82 [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] view. We are finalising the proposal that we put out for comment and the member can make comments when he sees the outcome. Mr T.R. BUSWELL: Thank you. Do I have one more follow-up question? The CHAIRMAN: No, I do not think so. I will come back to the member for Vasse. Hold that thought. Mr T.R. BUSWELL: You are pushing the envelope. Ms J.A. RADISICH: I refer to the second dot point of major initiatives for 2005-06 on page 1055. I note with interest that the government is proposing to introduce a graduate opportunity program. I wonder whether, for the benefit of the committee, the minister could expand on what mutual benefits that program would bring to new graduates as well as to small business owners. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I thank the member for the question. I know that she is very interested in this area. The graduate opportunity program will provide a six-month placement with small business for tertiary graduates or students in their final year of study. This matching program will encourage graduates to look more seriously at small business for employment opportunities and give small business a greater appreciation of what graduates can offer their businesses. The SBDC, with support from the Institute for Small Business Research, will develop a database to match small businesses with final year university students and graduates. I think that will help. I remember the days when we were at uni. I am sorry, my memory is much longer. Ms J.A. RADISICH: I can remember when I was at uni; I do not know whether the minister can remember when he was there! Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I am not that old! It is good to have a database for matching students to business. I think that will help both parties and will also obviously help small businesses to offset some of their staff shortages and find quality and appropriate staff. I think it is more important at this period because of the skill shortage. Getting those two databases to match will be of benefit. Small business operators will have the opportunity to select suitable student graduates from a database to undertake paid work or work experience on the basis of short-term, part-time or full-time placements within their business depending on their needs and agreement. However, the overall program is about putting graduates who have the skills and the education together with small businesses who need those skills, and I think that database will be of benefit. Ms J.A. RADISICH: I am a bit confused. The CHAIRMAN: Does the member have a further question? Ms J.A. RADISICH: I think the newspaper said that it was a six-month placement program. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: Yes. Ms J.A. RADISICH: Then the minister said that it would be part-time or casual. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: No, the graduate opportunity program will provide a six-month placement for small business. That is one, but the SBDC is also matching up small business with graduates as well. Ms J.A. RADISICH: Separately? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: That is separately, so they can do that and join them up. Ms J.A. RADISICH: Will the six-month placement program be accredited to a tertiary degree? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: It is in the final year of study. I think it will be. Ms J.A. RADISICH: As an internship or as a course or for extra credit? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I will ask the director to answer that question. Mr G. Etrelezis: It is intended as a work placement and it fits with the curriculum that students are completing at university. It will contribute to their final year, but as such it will be work placement and it will be paid employment by the small business. Ms J.A. RADISICH: Which universities have signed up? Mr G. Etrelezis: The universities have not signed up yet. This is a proposed program. Ms J.A. RADISICH: So it may not happen if the universities do not sign up? Mr G. Etrelezis: That is correct, although we believe we will be able to enlist the support of graduates looking for opportunities in small business. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: The databases will happen anyway. Whether the graduate six-month course happens depends on the universities, but I think it will happen. Ms J.A. RADISICH: The minister has some work to do on that one, I think. [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E83

Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: George is working on it very diligently. Ms J.A. RADISICH: Very good. Mr B.J. GRYLLS: I refer to major initiatives on page 1055, which refers to developing a state purchasing participation service focusing on increasing the capacity of small businesses to participate in supplying to major purchasers. Will the minister expand on that aspect a little? I am concerned that the Treasurer regularly speaks about major savings he can make through his changes to procurement policy. Every time I hear such comments, I think about small businesses being disadvantaged, especially those in the regions, because they cannot match the bigger players with whole-of-department quotes. It is important that the Minister for Small Business keeps a close eye on that aspect. I give an example. The Water Corporation in Merredin was buying cars from Perth, even though the quotes received from the dealers in Perth and Merredin were the same. There was no difference in the value of the car because an overriding price applied for a standard six-cylinder car. However, as a result of the procurement argument, the Water Corporation ordered the cars and had them shipped to Merredin. That happens when the Treasurer determines what will happen in government departments, and the Minister for Small Business has no say in the matter. It reaches the stage at which individual letters must be written to each department to make them take notice of the matter. I wrote one letter to the Water Corporation, and the next cars it bought were from the Merredin dealer; it was that simple. [9.30 pm] Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: The Small Business Development Corporation will implement the state purchasing participation service, which will try to bring players together and to provide support to make the most of opportunities. Small business people tend to panic when they see the paperwork required to be filled out with government tenders. The process needs to be streamlined. Also, we must promote local content in the government purchasing and private sector procurement perspectives. In other words, we must look for opportunities for small business. The Small Business Development Corporation will do that work. It will cover major users in the state over time. It will particularly base its work on regional centres first. Work needs to be done, especially with major infrastructure such as agriculture and resource development project are under way or projected. An active role will be taken to try to make that happen. Any help from any local member who sees opportunities will be welcomed. I am sure the SBDC will thank members for their support. The corporation will do the work anyway. I have talked to small business people. We need to be smarter. When tendering for government work, four or five small businesses may need to join together to access the tender process. I talk to small business people regularly. I went to a breakfast recently, and the first thing stated to me was that it is difficult to conform with the requirements of the tender process. We hope that the SBDC will break down those difficulties. This program is a great initiative. We need to see how it goes. Mr B.J. GRYLLS: It is a great initiative, but it requires hands-on experience. I am sure the minister in his electorate office buys his stationery from the local stationery supplier to support local people. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: Yes. Mr B.J. GRYLLS: It should be no different for all departments. Homeswest in Merredin should buy paper from the Merredin paper supplier, and not use a centrally procured order that provides paper at 5c less a ream. Without the involvement of the SBDC, that will not happen. The minister needs to sit down with people across government to make it happen on the ground. The CHAIRMAN (Mrs D.J. Guise): That was a good statement, but I did not hear a question. I will move on to the member for Serpentine-Jarrahdale. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: The SBDC has done work in that regard. Can I expand on the answer? The CHAIRMAN: I will allow it, but members must ask questions. Mr G. Etrelezis: I agree with the minister and the member for Merredin that a watching brief is required in terms of small business in regional areas. The program is designed to educate both ends of the process. Small business will be educated from the perspective of the how-to process. We intend to have people who assess tenders at Treasury give presentations, as it is useful for small business people to know what assessors look for. The member may appreciate that agencies based in the regions have a discretion to spend locally to a certain threshold. Many agencies are not aware of this discretion. Our role is to ensure that they are aware of it, and that it is applied to support small business. It is a two-pronged approach to accept that both parties will contribute to the process of giving business to small businesses in regional areas. Mr A.J. SIMPSON: I refer to the first dot point on page 1 052 under significant issues and trends. It outlines that positive economic conditions over the past year have boosted confidence in the small business sector. Would the minister agree that the “no” result of the referendum on shopping hours has been a boost for small businesses? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: Before the referendum this government gave a clear indication that it would accept the verdict of the people, which is what has happened. We will abide by that and implement that decision. The indications from the small businesses that were involved in those campaigns are that they are very happy with the outcome. Their positions

E84 [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] are more secure. The government made it clear that it would accept the verdict of the people, and that verdict has been delivered. We will make sure that the decision is implemented. Mr A.J. SIMPSON: Currently, laws regulate the number of people who can be on a shopfloor during weekend trading. I think it is 10 people. Will the government change that in the future? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: That is a matter for the Minister for Consumer and Employment Protection rather than the Minister for Small Business. I have not seen any information or briefing notes to the contrary. Mr T.R. BUSWELL: I refer the minister to the reference to business enterprise centres on page 1060 of the Budget Statements and the sum of $400 000 to help fund the results of part 2 of the review. When the minister was asked a question in Parliament last week, he indicated that the budget papers showed that $400 000 was set aside by the government for the redevelopment of the BEC program. I am interested to know where that $400 000 is referred to in the budget papers, because I have not seen it. Was that $400 000 included in the 2004-05 budget for the Small Business Development Corporation’s operational grants? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: The $400 000 is a one-off grant that was identified in the 2004-05 budget year as a one-off grant to rejig the BECs. Mr T.R. BUSWELL: Is it not shown in this year’s budget? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: It is included in the $2.7 million that is allocated for - Mr T.R. BUSWELL: Was that - Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: It was carried over. Mr T.R. BUSWELL: The budget papers do not show that. It is shown as a line item but the $400 000 is not specifically referred to for that purpose. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: The base grant for BECs is $2.28 million but the actual allocation is $2.7 million. The $400 000 is included in the $2.68 million, and some other minor savings that have been carried over have been put into that amount also. Mr T.R. BUSWELL: Does the $2.68 million of last year include the budgeted figure of $400 000? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: Yes. Mr T.R. BUSWELL: Therefore, can I take it that it was not spent? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: It was carried over. Mr T.R. BUSWELL: Therefore, is it correct that last year’s outcome of $2.48 million is a budget overrun of $200 000, give or take? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I will ask the director general to answer that question. Mr G. Etrelezis: The member is correct: the budget of $2.680 million included the $400 000. The estimated actual of $2.480 million was an estimate of spending some of the $400 000 this financial year. As the minister indicated, because of the extension of the interim funding to 31 December, that amount will not be spent and the full $400 000 will be carried forward. It will become part of the budget estimate for 2005-06. The figure of $2.480 million was an estimated actual but it will not come near to that figure; it will be reduced. Mr T.R. BUSWELL: Is the budget figure for 2005-06 of $2.748 million an underestimate? Mr G. Etrelezis: That comprises $2.280 million for operational grant funding. The $400 000 is a one-off allocation brought forward from 2004-05 and $68 000 provided for the first time as general cost escalation. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: If the member wants to know the truth, that $2.78 million is an over-budget amount because the BEC reform program will start at Christmas. Therefore, the $400 000 will probably not be spent by 30 June next year, in which case some $200 000 will be carried over next year. As I indicated to the member for Vasse recently when he asked me a question about whether the funding would be continued at that level, $200 000 will be available in the first six months of the next financial year. I need to worry about trying to get more money to make sure the BEC program is adequately funded for the next financial year. Mr T.R. BUSWELL: Will the minister outline the purposes of the $400 000? I refer also to capital expenditure on page 1056. Last year $185 000 was spent on computing and office equipment replacement for BECs. Will the minister give me an indication of what it is expected the $400 000, which has flowed through the budget for a number of years, will be spent on? Secondly, was any of the $185 000 spent on upgrades to the business enterprise centres, which the minister plans to make redundant? [9.40 pm] Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: The $400 000 was a one-off contribution by the government to support the facilitation of the BEC program, even if that meant a restructure or the allocation of more funds. Whatever the final outcome, the [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E85 government decided to allocate an extra $400 000 to facilitate that process. I will ask the managing director to talk about what the money was spent on because the computing was done within the department, and I am not sure of the processes or what the money was spent on. Mr G. Etrelezis: The $185 000 was for the first time allocated for the BEC network as triennial funding from Treasury. It was allocated in 2004-05 but because of the delay in the new structure as a result of the review process not being announced before 30 June, the $185 000 will be carried forward into 2005-06 and will be distributed to the BECs. Mr T.R. BUSWELL: I am intrigued because that is the second lot of estimates figures from last year that are incorrect and that have not been followed up with a correction. I am interested to learn why the figures in the budget are redundant and why that information was not known. Surely it would have been known when the budget was set. Surely it would have been known that the $185 000 was not going to be spent when this documentation was finalised and, similarly, that the $2.48 million to which I referred earlier was an underspend. Why are the figures redundant on the day they are presented? Mr G. Etrelezis: That is a fair question, member for Vasse. We are obliged to provide estimates to Treasury as early as March each year. The original forecast for the completion of the review and the submissions for stage 2 of the review were to be completed by 31 March. We had anticipated having the result of the review, including a restructure, by the end of May which would have allowed us 30 days in which to get the funds to the BECs under the new structure. However, there was an election, and the new minister quite rightly had to become familiar with the whole review set- up. Between the board and the minister, the result of the review has yet to be decided and publicly announced. As a result, we have to advise Treasury that we will be carrying forward those funds. We have to justify to Treasury why we are carrying forward the $185 000, and the $400 000 in this case. The adequate reason was that the finalisation review would not be ready by 30 June. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: Obviously that will flow into next year as well because it will now be 1 January. I understand that that is the position, and I do not think we would want it any other way. Mr J.R. QUIGLEY: I refer the minister to page 1052 of the Budget Statements and the third dot point under significant issues and trends, which states that business migration contributes positively to Western Australia’s economic wellbeing. What is the state government doing to ensure that we remain a preferred destination for business migrants? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: This is something very special to Western Australia. We are proud of this outcome. The business migrant incentive program is one of the state’s key investment attraction initiatives. The program influences business migrants to undertake business or investments in Western Australia. From 1 July 2003 to 30 June 2004, 306 state sponsorship applications were approved. This represents a potential capital investment in the state in excess of $390 million and the generation of some 1 100 jobs over the next three years. Based on the state sponsorship results achieved in 2003-04, it is anticipated that around 1 000 applications, with a potential capital investment of more than $1 200 million, will be approved over the next three financial years from July 2004 to June 2007. However, Western Australia is in strong competition with the states and territories for business migrants. They are of course a prime source of new capital, business establishment, export income and employment generation. As a result of WA’s ongoing marketing program and the initiative of the Small Business Development Corporation, Western Australia’s market share of business migrants coming to Australia has risen from 17 per cent to 27 per cent, so that Western Australia has become the top-ranked destination in Australia. In 2005-06, the SBDC will implement strategies to protect Western Australia’s share of the market against competition from other states and territories. These strategies include boosting the marketing of the business migration program, updating and supplying new literature, providing new programs and updating the business migration web site. As the Minister for Small Business, I intend to try to expand that, because I believe there are enormous opportunities in other locations around the world to try to attract business migration. Business migration brings a huge benefit to this state by bringing in people with know-how and money and providing employment opportunities for Western Australians. We should all support it. I have already indicated that I will make sure that one of my priorities is to try to expand it to keep Western Australia at the forefront of business migration in Australia. Mr A.J. SIMPSON: How many businesses are there? The CHAIRMAN: Does the member for Serpentine-Jarrahdale have a question? Mr A.J. SIMPSON: Yes. The CHAIRMAN: If it is on the same subject, I will allow it. Mr A.J. SIMPSON: Yes, it is. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I did mention that. From July 2003 to 30 June 2004, 306 state-sponsored applications were approved. Those businesses brought capital investment of $390 million into the state, and some 1 100 jobs will be generated over the next three years. Mr T.R. BUSWELL: Can I follow up on the same subject?

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The CHAIRMAN: No. Because of the time, I will go to the members for Kingsley, Merredin, Serpentine-Jarrahdale and Vasse. With a bit of luck, the member for Vasse will be able to ask his question before 10.00 pm if everybody is short and succinct. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I will try to be as quick as possible. The CHAIRMAN: The member for Kingsley is next. Mrs J. HUGHES: I refer to the fifth dot point of significant issues and trends on page 1052. There has been a significant shift in demographics as the Australian population ages. Given the statement that there has been a growth in small business operators who are aged over 50, has the state government introduced any initiatives to assist existing and prospective new business operators aged over 50? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: This is an area that all of us need to take great heed of. Approximately 35 per cent of small businesses in Western Australia are operated by people over 50. In the future that figure will become even greater. In Western Australia, 300 000 men and women are in the 50 to 64 age group. Many of them will leave full-time work in the near future. Obviously, that needs to be looked at. An estimated 10 to 20 per cent of this group will become involved in a small business, as either an owner-operator or partner, for reasons such as income support or lifestyle change. The SBDC has produced an excellent publication called Wise moves: a practical kit for mature aged small business entrants, which provides information about starting, buying, running and growing a small business. It also provides information on succession planning and exit strategies. It is important that we provide those people who are coming into the market of small business owners with information so that they know what to do. Not only that, that publication assists people to optimise their opportunities by carefully planning their business entry, establishing goals and preparing a plan for their business. We need to do more in that area, and we need to make sure that those people get the support that they need to be prosperous. This is a growing segment of our market, and it will make a helluva difference to our economy. Mrs J. HUGHES: Can I ask a further question? The CHAIRMAN: The member can ask a further question on the same subject quickly. Mrs J. HUGHES: Does the minister think that perhaps the burgeoning number of people aged 50 and over who are going into small business is because of some of the problems that the over-50s face in finding other employment? Therefore, they need to be strongly supported in this area. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: At the moment, with the shortages in all the trades areas, I think that problem is probably less than it would normally be. People are making lifestyle choices. They are retiring from their employment. They usually get a payout or have some sort of lump sum or benefit. They want to go into something that will support their lifestyle. They may make a conscious decision that they want to be self-employed. There are a number of different issues. All I know is that this area seems to be growing and will continue to grow. We need to make sure that the framework is in place to support those people, because they make a helluva difference to our economy. Mr G. Etrelezis: I will add to that. The member has made a very good point. For the over-50s who are having difficulty, another initiative that we have introduced is our home-based business network. This assists the over-50s to overcome the obstacles in finding the right connections and the right networking. Part of the network, which is online, is an interactive forum, in which they can exchange their views and ideas with others and get some assistance in following up how to get into small business. [9.50 pm] Mr B.J. GRYLLS: I refer to page 1060. The allocation to business enterprise centres is up from $2.48 million to $2.74 million. I will make an observation and ask for the minister’s comments. The economy is growing at five per cent. There is a major skills shortage, and migration is being expanded to try to keep up with employment. The mining and construction industry is booming. Can the minister give me some idea why, in a $14 billion budget, we are arguing about $60 000 BECs and where they are located? It does not seem to me that a micro-issue like that should be gaining the impetus the minister is giving it, when the macro-issue of skills shortages would seem to be a far better issue on which to focus. It does not make sense to me that this review, and changing a Mukinbudin BEC to a Merredin BEC, is a good utilisation of the department’s resources. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: The issue is not about the cost of government support, because we already spend a fortune in training and supporting a developing boom economy in this state. The BEC is a specific group of issues. It is a review of support to small business. As the new minister, I want to make sure that these BECs are in places where they support the most small businesses and get the best results. This is not an argument about one town versus another; this is an argument about putting them in the best place to support the largest number of businesses and deliver the best outcome to the regions as well as to the state economy, so that the government can say it has supported small business. We want to put them in places and give them the resources to achieve the outcome we all want. Mr B.J. GRYLLS: The budget has not changed. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: The budget amount is being increased, in the first instance, by $400 000. I have already indicated that I will commit to making sure that the funding to the BECs is adequate. When the member sees the [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E87 proposal he will understand what I am talking about. In spite of that, we will add more real dollars to the BEC networks, because it needs to happen, to make sure that small business can grow to its full potential, in the regions as well as in the metropolitan area. Small businesses, regardless of where they are located, need the support. I do not want a situation in which a BEC is stuck in a particular place with the aim of supporting small business, but is not doing so. I do not want to be saying that it is only a small sum of money. If we are to spend money to support small business, let us do it right. Mr A.J. SIMPSON: I refer the minister to the income statement on page 1057, and the line item for income grants and subsidies. The 2004-05 budget estimate is $60 000, increasing to $157 000 in 2005-06, but then falling to $60 000 in 2006-07. Why is that? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I ask the managing director to answer that question. Mr G. Etrelezis: Those grants and subsidies are mostly from commonwealth grant programs, in this case the TradeStart program. We have had a good run with TradeStart, but now the commonwealth is altering the conditions under which we can receive funding, depending on how many new exporters we can get over the line. We can only forecast for the minimum amount we will receive. If we do better than that, we will obviously get more grants in the out years. Mr T.R. BUSWELL: When framing my question about the business migrant incentive program, mentioned on page 1060, I was perusing the flawed statistics contained in “Characteristics of Small Business”, Australian Bureau of Statistics series 8127.0. Notwithstanding the fact that there may be some errors in the statistical collection, it serves for comparison purposes, because standard errors tend to move in similar ways across years. The minister may be interested to note that the number of people aged over 50 years engaged in business in Western Australia declined between June 2003 and June 2004 by 18.8 per cent. However, that is not my question. My question is about the business migrant incentive program. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I thank the member for the statement. Mr T.R. BUSWELL: It is my great pleasure. The funding for 2004-05 is $30 000. The funding for 2005-06 is $30 000. If business migrants are so important, why does this program effectively receive a rolling real cut in allocated funding? What were some of the core underlying economic indicators that were considered from a small business point of view, such as inflation, gross domestic product growth at a state level and, of importance to small business growth, changes in fuel prices? The CHAIRMAN: The minister will deal with one question at a time. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: The member wants to know why the $30 000 for the business migrant incentive program - Mr T.R. BUSWELL: Why is it decreasing in real terms? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: It has not; it is just a $30 000 flat - Mr T.R. BUSWELL: No, minister, by default it has to decrease in real terms. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: The managing director will answer that question. Mr G. Etrelezis: The business migrant incentive program is a small part of the migration program, whereby we give an allocation of up to $1 500 for business proposals for regional areas only. Quite rightly, most of the business migration occurs where the greater population is, which is the Perth metropolitan area. However, I am pleased to report that 20 per cent of our sponsorship approvals for 2004-05 to date are going to regional areas. Not many migrants are taking up the incentive for $1 500 for a consultant to assist them with their business proposal. We estimate that the reason for this is that the agents are incorporating that service into their fee structure, and therefore they are not bothering to apply to the state for further assistance. We simply based that $30 000 in the out years on our history of the past two years of sponsorships. Mr T.R. BUSWELL: The follow-up question related to the significant issues and trends listed on page 1052 and the key underlying economic indicators that were used to analyse small business outlooks for the year ahead. I am particularly interested in inflation rates, interest rates and, of course, from a small business perspective, fuel prices. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: The managing director will answer that question. Mr G. Etrelezis: In framing the significant issues and trends, we look very carefully at all the indicators. The member has picked up on a very important one that will always be an issue for small business; that is, rising fuel prices, be they oil or gas. That affects every bottom line of every small business; there is no doubt about that. I think the unprecedented rise in oil prices in particular will hurt small businesses. It has in fact already damaged their bottom line. Mr T.R. BUSWELL: Does the managing director see that as a trend that will continue? Mr G. Etrelezis: I see that trend continuing at least until the end of the next financial year. Those are predictions for both oil and gas, unfortunately, despite our position in gas supply to the rest of the world. Interest rates show the opposite trend. We were a bit concerned with the rate rise earlier this year, but, fortunately, the heat has gone out of the

E88 [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE A - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] housing market in the eastern states more so than it has on the western seaboard. Even today it looks as though the Reserve Bank may not increase interest rates, and we will know that first thing tomorrow morning. Hopefully, it will keep the same sort of trend. That is the other factor that impacts on small business. We have alluded to that in the trends statement by saying that, whether it be fuel prices or interest rates, cash flow management and debt control will be very important to small business. Mr T.R. BUSWELL: I am very interested to hear what I consider to be the very accurate comments of the managing director, especially about oil prices, which he expects to stay the same or rise during the next financial year. How does the minister compare that statement with the Treasurer’s assumption that the price of oil at the end of the year will be $US30 a barrel when it is currently more than $US40? Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: The member heard the answer of the Treasurer. The Treasurer was very clear. The assumptions in the budget were made on the best advice of Treasury. They are conservative in nature. The Treasurer accepts those assumptions as the basis of the budget. I have no problem accepting the basis of that advice. I think it is prudent financial management to accept the advice of Treasury. It is the best placed to make those judgments. I support the position taken by the Treasurer. Mr T.R. BUSWELL: By way of clarification, I take it that the minister shares the Treasurer’s view that the price of oil at the end of the financial year will approximate $US30 a barrel. Mr J.B. D’ORAZIO: I share the view of the Treasurer that government needs to be based on clear supported Treasury advice for the framing of budgets. That is what he has done. I support that position. As has been seen over the past four and a bit years of the Labor government, it has made sure that this state is in the best financial position to take the best advantage of the enormous opportunities that this state has. In particular, small businesses in this state have never had it as good as they have since the Labor government has been in power. The appropriation was recommended. Committee adjourned at 10.00 pm ______

Legislative Assembly

Tuesday, 7 June 2005

ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B The meeting commenced at 9.00 am. Division 3: Premier and Cabinet - Service 10, Support for the Implementation of the State’s Road Safety Initiatives, $ 5 793 000 - Mr P.W. Andrews, Chairman. Mrs M.H. Roberts, Minister for Police and Emergency Services; Community Safety. Mr I.F. Cameron, Executive Director, Office of Road Safety. Mr K. Edwards, Senior Finance Officer, Office of Road Safety. Mr M.T. Thorn, Director, Office of Crime Prevention. Mr B. Taddeo, Manager, Business Services, Office of Crime Prevention. Mr C. D’Cruze, Senior Finance Officer, Office of Crime Prevention. The CHAIRMAN: This estimates committee will be reported by Hansard staff. The daily proof Hansard will be published at 9.00 am tomorrow. The estimates committee’s consideration of the estimates will be restricted to discussion of those items for which a vote of money is proposed in the consolidated fund. This is the prime focus of the committee. While there is scope for members to examine many matters, questions need to be clearly related to a page number, item, program or amount within the volumes. For example, members are free to pursue performance indicators that are included in the budget statements while there remains a clear link between the questions and the estimates. It is the intention of the Chairman to ensure that as many questions as possible are asked and answered and that both questions and answers are short and to the point. The minister may agree to provide supplementary information to the committee, rather than asking that the question be put on notice for the next sitting week. For the purpose of following up the provision of this information, I ask the minister to clearly indicate to the committee which supplementary information she agrees to provide, and I will then allocate a reference number. If supplementary information is to be provided, I seek the minister’s cooperation in ensuring that it is delivered to the committee clerk by 17 June 2005, so that members may read it before the report and third reading stages. If the supplementary information cannot be provided within that time, written advice is required of the day by which the information will be made available. Details in relation to supplementary information have been provided to both members and advisers and accordingly I ask the minister to cooperate with those requirements. I caution members that if a minister asks that a matter be put on notice, it is up to the member to lodge the question on notice with the clerk’s office. Only supplementary information that the minister agrees to provide will be sought by 17 June 2005. We will begin with division 3, service 10, which can be found on page 94 of the Budget Statements. Members of the official committee will be given priority to ask questions. When members ask a question they must refer us to a point within the budget as a preface to the question. Would members please make their questions short. I ask the minister to provide short answers. A quick game is a good game. Mr T.K. WALDRON: I refer the minister to the final dot point under major achievements for 2004-05 on page 95 of the Budget Statements. Of the 80 secondary schools involved in the pre-driver education program, how many are in country Western Australia? Will the minister outline which country schools have been involved? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: The program was introduced into country schools for 15 to 17-year-olds. The member would have to ask the Department of Education and Training for a breakdown of the schools. I would prefer that the member put the question on notice. Mr T.K. WALDRON: Can that information be provided by way of supplementary information? The CHAIRMAN: The minister may agree to provide supplementary information, but I believe that she said that it would be best if the question were placed on notice. Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: If the question were placed on notice, we could get the information from the Department of Education and Training. If the information was within my purview and the answer could be given by the office, I would suggest that the information be given by way of supplementary information. However, since the information must come from the Department of Education and Training, I would rather the question be put on notice. E90 [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005]

[9.10 am] Mr S.R. HILL: I refer the minister to the appropriation for the delivery of service on page 94. The budget estimate figure for 2004-05 was $1 589 000. The estimated actual figure is $5 895 000. Can the minister explain the reason for the variance of over $4 million? Is more money being received from speeding and red-light camera fines? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: I thank the member for the question. We are not receiving more money from speeding and red-light camera fines. In fact, less is being received. As the member rightly points out, it is a variance of some $4 million. That was due to the government’s commitment in November last year to dedicate at least $15 million to the road trauma trust fund, irrespective of what one-third of the income from speeding and red-light camera fines amounted to. The government would provide a third of the money even if it were greater than $15 million. In 2004-05 we had to inject an additional $4 million into the road trauma trust fund, and that was to ensure that we continue to get that message out to Western Australian motorists, and continue to address the road toll. For each of the next four years, additional money will be allocated if the one-third does not equal $15 million. That is what is currently anticipated. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: I refer the minister to page 94. I notice that the estimated actual cost of service for 2004-05 is $22 965 000, and the 2005-06 budget estimate is only $20 252 000. Can the minister explain what appears to be a decrease in funding there? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: I will ask Mr Edwards to answer that question. Mr K. Edwards: It is not actually a decrease in funding; it is the fact that we have a road trauma trust fund. The way in which the Treasury estimates are put together does not actually take into consideration moneys kept in the trust fund. In 2004-05, there would be funds in the trust account that would be utilised in 2005-06, so they do not appear in the estimates. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: So there is money somewhere in a government coffer that does not appear in the budget papers? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: Perhaps I can make it a bit clearer. Some of the money in the road safety budget comes from the consolidated fund and there is also money separately in the road trauma trust fund that is placed there under a separate act of Parliament. As I was just explaining to the member for Geraldton, under the act of Parliament one-third of the money received from speeding and red-light camera fines goes into that fund each year. It is a separate fund run by the government, and is off the consolidated fund account. As I have just explained to the member for Geraldton, we have agreed to top up that amount when one-third of the money received from speeding and red-light camera fines does not reach the $15 million mark. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: What are the total funds in the road trauma trust fund? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: Each year, one-third of the money from speeding and red-light camera fines goes into the road trauma trust fund. Over the course of the past five or six years, the total amount of speed and red-light camera income has varied between $28 million and about $45 million. In essence that means that the amount of money that has gone into the road trauma trust fund each year has varied between about $9 million and about $15 million. That is why the government made the commitment to keep the amount at $15 million. There is not very much carryover from year to year, but sometimes there is a small carryover. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: In the trust fund? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: In the trust fund. I believe that the figure that the member has pointed to is the amount in the trust fund that is carried over. Mr D.A. TEMPLEMAN: I refer the minister to page 584. In the major policy decisions there is a reference to smarter policing. The CHAIRMAN (Mr P.W. Andrews): Sorry, member for Mandurah, I am lost. Mr D.A. TEMPLEMAN: I apologise; I am in the wrong section. Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: I will just explain to members and make sure that we have the concurrence of members of the committee. Obviously there are many divisions in front of us today. I have many advisers from different areas here. Currently, I have the advisers from the Office of Road Safety with me, and the advisers from the Office of Crime Prevention are behind me. With the agreement of members of this committee, I was hoping to move from section to section and allow officers to go home as we have dealt with the respective divisions. I would like to deal with road safety matters first, then move onto crime prevention, and then the other divisions. The CHAIRMAN: That was the agreement we reached at the start of deliberations. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: I was not here then. The CHAIRMAN: I am sure the member will be here next time. Mr S.R. HILL: I refer the minister to the fourth dot point on page 95 under major initiatives for 2005-06, which reads - [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E91

A review to identify new safety measures to reduce the over-representation of young drivers in crashes will be completed by the Department. This is a particular interest to me as a country member. Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: I thank the member for Geraldton for that question. As the member will be aware, the government has put in place a significant number of new initiatives over the past four years, including the 50 kilometres an hour default speed limit on suburban roads. We have also introduced graduated driver training and the computer- based hazard perception test, which is clearly aimed at young people. The Road Aware program has been initiated in schools. The Keys to Life program, referred to by the member for Wagin, has also been put in place, along with double demerits on long weekends - there was some commentary in the media about that on the weekend - and banning the use of handheld mobile phones. To take things to the next step and deal with the issue of young people, who are grossly over-represented in road crashes compared with the number of people who have licences, particularly in the age group 17 to 24 and particularly on country roads, the member may have noticed that a package was launched on the weekend to put those major points out for discussion. As part of that package, some of the things the public is being consulted about by the Road Safety Council include limiting the number of passengers that young drivers can carry in the first few months of holding a licence, looking at the hours in which they can drive, and perhaps increasing the number of supervised driving hours they need to do before gaining a licence. The government brought in a scheme under which drivers must complete a logbook of 25 hours of supervised driving. Some research indicates that up to 120 hours of supervised driving would result in safer drivers. We want to take the public with us on all those things. A range of other initiatives were included in the package released yesterday. I suggest that the member circulate it in his electorate and get some community feedback. Information released by the Road Safety Council yesterday indicated that it believed that if those initiatives were adopted, up to 28 lives could be saved each year. Mr T.K. WALDRON: I refer to the key efficiency indicators on page 94, and the line item “Average cost per FTE for services to the Road Safety Council”. The figure for that item has been reducing over the years. It has been reduced from $79 642 in 2004-05 to $66 183 in 2005-06. Can the Minister explain what that actually means? Is that figure for the support to each full-time equivalent? What is meant by that cost coming down? Is that taking services away from the council or are those services being done better? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: That indicator reports the amount of effort, expressed as FTEs, required to support the operations of the Road Safety Council, and includes executive support, coordination and research, preparation of papers for consideration, and routine administrator support. It seems to be a fairly marginal difference. I am advised that there is no operational impact. It is an estimate that Treasury comes up with. Mr T.K. WALDRON: So it does not actually affect the support for the FTEs themselves? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: That is what the director has advised. [9.20 am] Mr M.J. COWPER: The first line of the figures set out on page 94 refers to $16 million of actuals in 2003-04 and a budget estimate for the coming year of $20.252 million. My question follows on from the previous question on how the money is being spent. Of particular interest to me is the cost of running the cameras that raise this money in the first instance, the cost of running the Road Safety Council, the money set aside for the strategic traffic enforcement program, which is run by the Western Australia Police Service, and in particular the amount spent on advertising. The CHAIRMAN: There are probably about six or seven questions there. Perhaps the member would like to start with one, and we will work our way through, but one question at a time. Mr M.J. COWPER: My first question was simply on the breakdown of the budget and how much money is being spent. Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: If the member wants a summary of budget expenditure on road safety for 2005-06, it comprises the road trauma trust fund of $22.4 million, which includes the Insurance Commission of Western Australia sponsorship of $3.011 million and interest of $100 000; the road enhancement program of $32.6 million; the state black spot program of $20 million; the safer roads program of $20 million; the Western Australia Police Service direct costs for speed and red-light cameras of $4.9 million; and the administration of the Office of Road Safety, Department of the Premier and Cabinet, of $1.4 million. That is a total budget expenditure of $101.3 million. I note that items such as the state black spot program, the safer roads program and the road enhancement program come under the portfolio of the Minister for Planning and Infrastructure. I hope that gives the member a broad overview of expenditure on road safety. The line item to which the member referred deals with the trust fund only. I have a full list of proposals for the budget expenditure for that trust fund. Does the member wish me to list those? Mr M.J. COWPER: I would like supplementary information on expenditure from the road trauma trust fund. I understand that the statewide telecommunications enhancement program funding comes from there and also some advertising. Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: The total budget for 2004-05 for STEP funding, including carried-over commitments, was $1 168 500, and the proposed budget for 2005-06 is $1.3 million, which is an increased base support for additional

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Western Australia Police Service traffic enforcement. There are a whole range of initiatives as part of the road trauma trust fund. If any members are interested, I am sure that the Road Safety Council will be more than happy to provide them with a briefing on its proposals for expenditure. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: On page 95 there are six or seven major initiatives for 2005-06, one of which is that the department will progress the drink-driving program legislative package. Is this a flow-on from the advertisements that the Police Service has shown of how every mobile police officer on a motorbike or in a patrol car has access to a hand- held breathalyser? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: Essentially, the Office of Road Safety’s part in this is advertising. The research it has done indicates two main deterrents for unsafe road behaviour. The first is people’s belief that their behaviour will result in somebody being killed or seriously injured and the second is a serious belief that they will be detected and caught. This aspect of the Office of Road Safety’s budget is making people painfully aware that their chances of being caught are high. That is believed, according to research, to be a significant deterrent factor in people’s behaviour. If when people get in a car they believe they will be caught for drink driving, they are far less likely to do it. This is really about advertising and promotion. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: Are those particular advertisements, which show that every mobile police officer carries a hand- held breathalyser and hand-held radar, funded from the road safety budget or direct from the police budget? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: The advertising comes out of the road safety budget. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: Is that for all of those advertisements? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: Yes. They are funded out of the road trauma trust fund, which is under the direction of the Road Safety Council. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: Out of the road trauma trust fund? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: Yes, which is an initiative of the Road Safety Council. The council administers that fund. As the member sitting next to the member for Hillarys has said, the council spends a significant proportion of its money on advertising and educative initiatives. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: Could the minister supply as supplementary information the budget for the road trauma trust fund? I am interested to see how much is spent on advertising and how much is spent on very worthwhile causes such as the neurotrauma research fund. Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: I made an offer to the member no more than 10 minutes ago that I am more than happy for the opposition to have a full briefing from either the Office of Road Safety - Mr R.F. JOHNSON: We would be just as happy with supplementary information. It would save everybody a lot of time. Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: I suggest the member put his question on notice, or I can answer that question now. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: I know it is not a dorothy dixer that is being asked. That will come from the minister’s colleagues very shortly. I am asking the minister a genuine question and the minister is not prepared to respond to it. Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: I am. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: The minister will not. She is saying that she will not answer it and that she will arrange a briefing. It is the old story that the minister always gives. The CHAIRMAN: Members, that is enough. The minister has not agreed to provide supplementary information. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: It is too hard for her. Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: May I just seek a point of clarification, Mr Chairman? My understanding is that supplementary information is given when the minister does not have information at her fingertips. I have all the information that the member wants at my fingertips. I am more than prepared to provide that information. Further, I have advised the member that I am happy for him to have a full briefing on it. He could have the answer now or have a briefing. I have the information at my fingertips, and I am more than happy to provide it now. This is what the estimates process is all about. The member should not carry on saying that I will not give the information. If he wants the information, I will give it to him now. I have offered to give it to him in different forums and he appears to be declining that offer. The CHAIRMAN: The protocol of the committee is that when there is a disagreement about how information is to be provided, it is up to the minister to determine whether she will provide it as supplementary information or ask the member to place the question on notice. That is the end of the story. The reasons the minister can, will not or chooses to do it in a different way are not a consideration. Mr T.K. WALDRON: I refer to the first dot point on page 95. I am interested in the progress of the drug-driving legislation. Could the minister please give me an update? [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E93

[9.30 am] Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: I thank the member for his question. The drafting of legislation to give effect to the drug- impaired driving program has been progressed. A number of legislative issues have been identified and resolved during the drafting process. A draft of the bill was recently finalised. It is anticipated that the bill will be presented to government for approval and introduction into the Parliament in the near future. We are currently considering the progress of Victoria’s saliva-testing trial. We are also liaising with other jurisdictions to consider the implications for Western Australia and how we can best progress the legislation, as well as some of the operational responses. Mrs C.A. MARTIN: Further to the first major achievement for 2004-05 at page 95, will the minister explain the implementation of the “Arriving Safely: Western Australian Road Safety Strategy for 2003-2007”? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: I thank the member for the question. Every death and serious injury is an issue for us. Every death or injury is one too many. However, we are making considerable progress. The first in a new series of annual reviews of road safety was produced by the Road Safety Council in 2003. It was tabled in March 2005. I have a copy of the document. Some of the notable successes include a 2.5 per cent reduction in travel speeds across the road network through education and enforcement, and policy initiatives such as the 50 kilometres an hour speed limit. There has been increased compliance with speed limits on most metropolitan roads and all rural roads. There has been an improvement in the regional fatality rates, particularly concerning drink-driving and speeding. There have been significant reductions in speed, drink-driving and restraints-related crashes during holiday periods through the implementation of the double-demerit point initiative. There has also been tracking of community attitudes that suggests that the combination of enforcement by the Western Australia Police Service and education initiatives coordinated by the Office of Road Safety have had a positive impact on road users. An independent valuation by Monash University’s accident research centre of the 50-kilometre an hour speed limit showed reductions of travel speeds on roads in Western Australia with speed limits of 50 kilometres an hour and 60 kilometres an hour. The reduction has saved 65 lives in the first two years of its introduction. The 50-kilometre limit was introduced in December 2001. There has also been a 51 per cent reduction in crashes involving pedestrians. That represents a halving, which is great. There has also been a 19 per cent reduction in crashes involving young drivers and an 18 per cent reduction in crashes involving older drivers. The reduction in travel speeds across the Western Australian road network is making a significant contribution towards the average reduction of 40 deaths a year, which has been sustained in Western Australia since 2001. Forty lives are saved every year because of the initiatives outlined in the document referred to by the member. Mr T.K. WALDRON: I refer to the major initiatives for 2005-06 at page 95. The fourth dot point has already been referred to by the member for Geraldton. It states that a review to identify new safety measures to reduce the over- representation of young drivers in crashes will be completed by the department. I have a similar concern because there is an over-representation of young drivers in accidents in country Western Australia. That concerns me a lot. Is it proposed to run forums in country areas to obtain feedback to assist the review? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: I understand there is an arrangement with the RoadWise network to run activities throughout the state to get public feedback. Mr T.K. WALDRON: I have also spoken to one of the minister’s advisers about running such a forum in my region. There are a lot of injuries to and deaths of young drivers in my region. If one were run independently, would the office take feedback from that into account? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: Absolutely. If the member is interested in running one, I am more than happy to ask the Office of Road Safety to provide whatever materials are needed to assist in running it successfully. Mr T.K. WALDRON: I have already spoken to one of the minister’s advisers and we will meet to discuss that. The review is a good idea. It is very important to get local feedback. Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: I am delighted that the RoadWise groups are taking up the issue very strongly. They can see the benefits of it and will assist us in obtaining community feedback. If the member or any other member would like to do that, we would be very happy. It is a great initiative. Mr M.J. COWPER: I refer to the third dot point under major achievements for 2004-05 at page 95. It states that the department implemented major statewide road safety community education programs. How much money has been allocated for advertising in the next 12 months? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: The campaigns are as follows: the drink-driving community education program is allocated $1.94 million; the reducing speeding campaign is allocated $366 000; and the seatbelts campaign is allocated $940 000. Those are the three major campaign areas. In addition, another campaign to reduce travel speeds is allocated $1.94 million. A fatigue campaign is allocated $900 000. Mr M.J. COWPER: What is the total? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: I do not have a total. Mr M.J. COWPER: Approximately $9 million.

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Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: That appears to be a significant overestimate from what I just said. Ms M.M. QUIRK: I refer to the government vehicle fleet buying policy at page 95. Does it mean that only government employees and political leaders will receive safer cars? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: No. The initiative means much broader road safety benefits. The Office of Road Safety, in collaboration with WorkSafe Western Australia, is working with the Department of Treasury and Finance to develop a government fleet safety policy that encourages government to lead the way in purchasing vehicles with high safety ratings and features. We also want to encourage key stakeholders in the vehicle industry, and the federal government, to speed up the introduction of improved design safety features including side curtain air bags, electronic stability control and seatbelt reminder systems, which is something I have highlighted time and again. Government purchasing of vehicles with high levels of safety and design benefits the community in two ways. Firstly, the vehicles will pass into private ownership at the end of the government lease period, which will help make the vehicles more accessible to members of the community who are buying them as second-hand vehicles. Secondly, the Western Australian government, like other governments in Australia, is a major fleet buyer of safer cars. Through market demand, manufacturers are encouraged to respond with a greater availability of safety features across model ranges. The government believes it can stimulate demand for safer vehicles and that it can get the vehicles into the broader community after their use as a government vehicle. The Road Safety Council believes that if the government pursues this policy there can be up to a 10 per cent reduction in road trauma. Mr M.J. COWPER: I refer to my previous question, which was about advertising for road safety community education programs. On a quick calculation of the figures given to me by the minister, the amount is $9.38 million. An amount of $1.3 million is available for the strategic traffic enforcement program. In spending taxpayers’ dollars in getting the message to young people, is it more effective to spend $9.38 million on television advertisements than to spend $1.3 million on getting our police officers on the streets? [9.40 am] Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: Members opposite would probably be the first to criticise if all the funding for police enforcement came out of the road safety budget. The money listed in the budget for STEP is additional money for the police. There is no question that policing is more effective than advertising. I would be misleading people if I suggested that this was all the money that was being spent on police enforcement. This is just a very small part of it. As the member for Murray will be well aware, enforcement is a core role for police. This is supplementary funding. The appropriation was recommended. Division 3: Premier and Cabinet - Service 12, Implementation of the State Crime Prevention Strategy, $11 838 000 - Ms M.M. QUIRK: I refer to the second major achievement for 2005-06 in which reference is made to the designing out crime unit. What progress has been made towards implementing crime prevention through environmental design principles and state planning policy guidelines? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: I thank the member for Girrawheen for her question. In 2004 the state government established a designing out crime unit in the Office of Crime Prevention to work across state government agencies and with local governments to ensure that design planning and development of the built and landscaped environment do not provide opportunities for crime. Over the past 30 years, international research has indicated that designing out crime and crime prevention through environmental design can assist in reducing crime and the fear of crime as part of a multi-agency approach. To achieve this, the government is working on developing a state designing out crime strategy and planning policy guidelines to ensure that consideration of crime risk is factored into planning and development approvals. In conjunction with the Department for Planning and Infrastructure and the Office of Crime Prevention, the Western Australian Planning Commission has developed designing out crime planning guidelines to provide local government, town centre management, industry and business with an understanding of the principles of designing out crime and a toolbox of possible design approaches to address crime prevention within Western Australia. Those guidelines will describe how designing out crime principles can be used in planning and design in subdivision and development proposals and assessments for statutory approvals in any upgrade or maintenance to more effectively address crime and safety issues. The draft guidelines have been already considered by the Western Australian Planning Commission and are about to be released for public comment. Those guidelines will be supported by a WAPC planning bulletin launch towards the end of 2005. Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: I also note that in the electorate of Midland, the new little subdivision of Woodbridge Lakes on the Midland railway workshops site is one of the first subdivisions to use those designing out crime principles. I was very pleased to see that the Midland Redevelopment Authority took an opportunity at an early stage to seek out information on designing out crime, and it has designed that subdivision accordingly. If the snapping up of those lots that are for sale is any indication, that is probably one of many factors that has caused people to be prepared to pay a good price for those blocks. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: I am trying to find Neighbourhood Watch under the major achievements and major initiatives. [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E95

Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: It is under division 37 covering the Police Service. Mr T.K. WALDRON: The fourth major achievement for 2004-05 on page 99 states that more than 60 local government community safety and crime prevention partnerships were formed and training was provided to support local governments in completing their crime prevention plans. In other words, 60 local governments are on board. Does the minister expect that more local governments will come on board under that program in 2005-06? What further initiatives will be implemented to encourage local government? The last major initiative for 2005-06 indicates that $3.2 million will be allocated to support local government. I gather that is part of the same program. Will the minister elaborate on that? As the minister knows, some local governments are involved and some are not. Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: I thank the member for Wagin for the question. He is right, local government take-up was initially slow. People have been used to working under a different model, and some have worked very successfully. Under the previous model, some communities were successful because people were active in getting together groups and applying for the grants while other needy communities missed out. Councillors made a lot of complaints that some groups within their boundaries obtained grants when the councillors believed they had more worthy projects. For example, a local government authority might have missed out on a crime prevention grant, while a separate group was successful. At that local level, councillors are elected to represent, so they should have input into a coordinated approach to reduce crime in their area and have the say on which of the crime prevention initiatives is funded. That is the impetus behind the change. I suppose the suspicion from local government was that somehow we wanted to push the problem onto them or that it would involve a cost shift. I can assure them that no cost shift is involved. The police budget has been massively increased and the amount of money for the Office of Crime Prevention has been increased. Over the past couple of months, a significant number of additional local governments have joined the scheme. I understand that the aim is to involve at least 90 in partnerships by the end of 2005-06. Initially, $10 000 is available to help councils design their own local crime prevention plan. Once that plan is in place, they can apply for funding for other initiatives that form part of that plan. Local governments have seen that this approach is working. One of my favourite sayings is that the proof of the pudding is in the eating. As more local government authorities see that those that have signed up are doing well out of it and are well supported in their crime prevention initiatives, they will want to be part of it. I encourage every local government authority in the state to be part of it. Initially, at least $10 000 is available, and, as the member for Wagin highlighted, a total of $3.2 million is available. Mr T.K. WALDRON: One of the problems raised with me earlier was not so much the finance but the workload, in that it was another job they have to do. The Safer WA groups did not impinge on local government’s time. They were quite separate from local government, although they had local government representation. However, I acknowledge that they were not all operating well. Is one of the problems that there has been a slow uptake? If that is the case, is there a plan to try to sell those groups better and make sure they do not take up too much of the time of local governments? That is a question that is often put to me by local governments. [9.50 am] Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: One of the things that the $10 000 planning money can go towards is backfilling staff if that is what is needed to put the plan in place. The issue that the member raised has been an issue only for some of the smaller local government authorities. Local governments need to take a leadership role in their local community. About 10 years ago, local governments started surveying their constituents about what were the important issues in their community. It does not matter what level of government asks that question; people say the important issues in their community are crime prevention, reducing antisocial behaviour, graffiti, and so forth. People do not differentiate and say that just because it is local government, the major issue is rubbish removal or the state of the local parks and gardens. People believe crime prevention and reducing antisocial behaviour etc are important issues, and they want local government to be part of that. I would encourage local governments to engage with their community. There are people in the community who have previously been part of the Safer WA committees and who are interested in assisting the council and putting in voluntary time. There is nothing to stop local governments from harnessing that community support and getting people to work with them on these initiatives. I acknowledge that that will require some coordination. Some of the money for staff time can come out of that initial funding of $10 000. Mr T.K. WALDRON: Very briefly, Mr Chairman - The CHAIRMAN: Is this a question on the budget rather than policy? Mr T.K. WALDRON: I think it does relate to this budget point, Mr Chairman. So if a former Safer WA committee has formed itself into a local Safer Town committee and is not accessing this money, it should talk to its local government about accessing this money? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: Yes. I want them to link together and take a coordinated and strategic approach within their own shire boundaries. It makes no sense to me to have competing interests.

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Mr S.R. HILL: I refer the minister to the last dot point on page 99, under major achievements for 2004-05. The minister is aware of the successful Midwest Football Academy in my electorate, funded through the community safety and crime prevention partnership fund. Can the minister comment on the extension of this and other projects to meet the high needs of youth in Geraldton Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: I thank the member for Geraldton for the question and also for his support of this initiative. The Midwest Football Academy is a joint initiative between Clontarf Foundation and Geraldton Senior College. It targets at-risk indigenous youth aged between 12 and 28 years in Geraldton. Funding of $50 000 was provided to the academy in early 2005 to extend the successful project for a further 12 months. The primary aim of the project is to attract indigenous male youth back to mainstream education through the medium of football, and through this medium to help students build a sense of self-esteem, teamwork and belonging. The academy uses a range of strategies to develop discipline and life skills in students so that they can meaningfully participate in the community. There is also the Midwest Netball Academy. That academy is run under the auspices of the Geraldton Streetwork Aboriginal Corporation. It is similar to the football academy project. The key objective of the netball academy is to attract and reattach female indigenous students to the education system, in that instance using netball as the medium for engagement and retention. That project will commence in July 2005. It will be based at John Wilcock Junior College. The community safety and crime prevention partnership fund has recently committed $50 000, alongside the matched Department of Education and Training contribution. Funding has also been provided to the City of Geraldton for the Geraldton youth empowerment program. That took the form of a grant of $40 000 to enable the City of Geraldton to employ a youth development officer for one year commencing in December 2004. That project will focus on the development and implementation of a five-year youth development plan for young people in Geraldton. A number of very worthy projects are taking place in the member’s area. In October 2004 there was a grant of $147 973 to enable the repayment of debt that was being carried by the Geraldton PCYC federation. That debt had been incurred by a funding shortfall during the construction phase of the new premises, and that one-off grant enabled the repayment of that debt. Mr S.R. HILL: That was much appreciated by the PCYC. Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: Yes. I know that had been a concern for the PCYC since the centre was opened. The City of Geraldton also recently signed a partnership agreement with the state government. It has received $10 000 to develop a crime prevention plan. The City of Geraldton will also be receiving $1 200 annually to meet the administrative costs of the community safety and crime prevention committee. Mr M.J. COWPER: I refer to page 99. The last dot point under major initiatives for 2004-05 refers to an allocation of $3.2 million to the community safety and crime prevention fund to support local government and community organisation grant projects. The minister has mentioned a research program to deal with crime prevention through environmental planning and design. What has been provided in this budget to deal with the fear of crime as opposed to crime itself, in particular the fear that is held by seniors in our community? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: One of the difficulties in answering a question such as this is that there is an enormous number of applications for grants from this $3.2 million allocation for the community safety and crime prevention fund. Those grants are in many different categories. Many of those would be to reduce the fear of crime. I cannot give the member an exact breakdown of that $3.2 million, because the grants had not been determined yet. It is really up to what priorities the local government authorities choose to put in place as part of their own plan. Mrs C.A. MARTIN: I refer to the fifth dot point on page 99. Can the minister comment on projects in Broome, and indeed the Kimberley, that have been funded through the community safety and crime prevention partnership fund? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: I certainly can. I thank the member for Kimberley for her question. One of the projects is the Broome marine intervention project. That project targets at-risk indigenous youth in Broome aged between 15 and 18 years, with a history of constant academic failure at school, truanting and low self-esteem. That project received $28 000 to provide for marine studies and personal development training. It is run by the Kimberley TAFE and the Broome PCYC. The first intake in 2005 had 12 participants. It is based on the successful Fremantle marine intervention program, which catered for 127 participants over three years. I am advised that more than 80 per cent of the students completed the course, and 96 per cent of these graduates have not reoffended. That is great news. Seventy-one per cent of the graduates have returned to study or gained employment. Some of the skills taught during the five-week course at Kimberley TAFE are scuba diving, navigation, deckhand skills and seamanship. An Aboriginal police liaison officer will accompany the students on the course. There is also the Broome men’s drop-in service, which targets homeless indigenous men in the Broome township. That is another project supported through the government’s crime prevention fund. Funding of $29 328 has been provided for that project. The Shires of Broome and Derby-West Kimberley are also working positively with the Office of Crime Prevention to form a community safety and crime prevention partnership with the state government. We are hopeful that will be signed in the near future. The Shires of Halls Creek and Wyndham-East Kimberley have already signed partnership agreements with the state, and have received $10 000 each. They also received, as I mentioned regarding [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E97

Geraldton, $1 200 annually to meet administrative costs with the local community safety and crime prevention committees. These and other efforts by local government assist in reducing crime in the Kimberley. [10.00 am] Ms M.M. QUIRK: I refer to the first dot point on page 99 of the Budget Statements regarding the general community safety and crime prevention strategy. Given recent events, can the minister outline why the GraffitiGone web site was established? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: I thank the member for Girrawheen for her question. I was delighted to jointly launch the GraffitiGone web site with the Mayor of the Town of Vincent. Graffiti vandalism costs Western Australians about $6 million a year in clean-up expenses, and research has consistently shown that prompt graffiti removal plays a critical role in reducing graffiti because it diminishes the level of recognition and reward achieved by graffiti offenders. The Western Australian government has committed to reduce graffiti and its impact on the local community. The government is working through its agencies and local government to facilitate the removal of graffiti within 48 hours, or immediately if the graffiti is racist or obscene. To assist this effort, the GraffitiGone web site was established in conjunction with the Town of Vincent. It provides an easily accessible online graffiti reporting form, and allows the community to play a role in reducing graffiti offending. People are asked to report graffiti vandalism and to enter the details of the damage. I have tried the web site, and it is very simple to use. Once the information is reported by the community, it is sent directly to agencies such as Main Roads, Western Power or the Town of Vincent. The reporting of graffiti is a significant deterrent. A three-month trial is being conducted, after which results will be examined. Potentially, the program could be rolled out across other local government authorities. Mr T.K. WALDRON: The third dot point of major achievements for 2004-05 as outlined on page 99 of the Budget Statements reads - ‘Operation Burglary Countdown’ was extended to Carnarvon in July 2004, reducing burglaries by 54% in the nine months to March 2005. This appears to have been a very successful program. Will the project continue in Carnarvon, and will it be extended to other major regional centres? Can the minister also briefly explain how it operates? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: As the member pointed out, Operation Burglary Countdown is a very successful burglary reduction project that was initiated by the government through the Office of Crime Prevention as part of the Burglar Beware program. Operation Burglary Countdown commenced in November 2003 in Morley and Bentley. At the conclusion of the 12-month pilot project, the rate of residential burglaries when compared with the level in the previous year had reduced by 45 per cent in Bentley and 24 per cent in Morley. The program was then trialled in a country community. Carnarvon was chosen, first, because of community concern about its rate of burglaries, and, second, because of the willingness of the Shire of Carnarvon, local agencies and local community groups to be involved. Operation Burglary Countdown involves multiple strategies to address different aspects of burglary prevention, including community awareness and advice, target hardening, home security audits and support and advice for victims to reduce re-victimisation. People are often surprised that not only do the same individuals commit crimes, but also, sadly, many individuals are continually re-victimised. Assisting break-in victims to prevent further break-ins is a worthwhile endeavour. As borne out by statistics, victims are more likely to be reoffended against than people who have never been victimised are to become a victim. Operation Burglary Countdown also involves intelligence-based policing to target known and recidivist offenders. Therefore, police make an effort to look at people known to them. Property marking and recording is another important element, and clear public messages are delivered to stakeholders that a burglary reduction pilot program is being conducted. One of the best elements is that the effort involves the entire community. The Department of Sport and Recreation also coordinated a series of sport diversionary programs in Carnarvon for young at-risk people; the Department of Housing and Works assists through security upgrades for public housing; and the Department for Community Development conducts extra work with local at-risk families. I cannot overestimate the importance of engaging the entire community and as many agencies as possible in such programs. Mr T.K. WALDRON: As the program has clearly been successful, will it be extended to other communities that have problems similar to those identified in Carnarvon? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: Yes. As the member indicated, a 56 per cent reduction in burglaries was achieved in Carnarvon compared with the number of offences that took place in the previous year. The Carnarvon pilot project is due to conclude in June, when the government will undertake a full assessment. Also, the government is looking to assist other local government bodies to roll out the program. The country and metropolitan projects were regarded as trials. What works in the city sometimes does not work in the country, and vice versa, but Operation Burglary Countdown seems to have worked very well in Carnarvon as well as in the metropolitan area. As a next step, the government will help other local governments to pursue the program. MR M.J. COWPER: The second major initiative for 2005-06 reads - The Department will continue its Burglar Beware campaign . . .

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I understand the program appeared last year in the form of television advertisements that highlighted the use of DNA testing; that is, a high-ranking police officer mentioned that DNA testing is now available in Western Australia. I am curious whether that program will be continued this year, as it was virtually telling burglars to wear gloves. Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: That is one interpretation that could be drawn from the advertisements. I doubt that very many burglars study Hansard. I am sure the member is aware that many things apart from fingerprints can be found at a crime scene to allow police to collect DNA. I refer to an example on the public record that relates to the use of DNA in a United Kingdom case. A professional - if one can use that term - car theft ring had been stealing very expensive vehicles, and police had had little joy in catching the culprit or culprits. A police officer investigating the theft of a vehicle police had managed to retrieve had an idea. It was clear that the criminal in that instance was wearing gloves at the time of the theft, and the officer thought about the action the thief took to steal the car. The police officer thought that perhaps a gap had emerged between the thief’s jacket and his glove as he had reached underneath the dashboard. The officer was right. Some skin cells had rubbed off the thief’s wrist where he had reached underneath the dashboard to reach the ignition, and the police managed to retrieve DNA from those skin cells. Cigarette butts can be retrieved. Sometimes people who commit a break-in leave cans of coke or beer and other things lying around the crime scene. Although the wearing of gloves by criminals can make DNA retrieval more difficult, it does not necessarily mean that DNA cannot be collected from a crime scene. To a certain extent, the purpose of the advertisements has been to deal with the large proportion of home burglary that is opportunistic theft. The burglary reduction figures speak for themselves. Globally, the campaign has had an excellent impact. It is difficult to know what parts of the campaign have had the most effect. However, overall we have seen a significant reduction in burglary. I believe that the ads are effective. [10.10 am] Mr S.R. HILL: I refer the minister to the fifth dot point under major achievements on page 99 of the Budget Statements. Will the minister briefly outline some of the strategies the department implemented to address temporal and seasonal crime hotspots? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: As the member for Geraldton rightly suggested, an increasing number of school leavers are visiting regional and coastal Western Australian communities after completing their year 12 exams. In Dunsborough, for example, a crowd of between 4 000 and 5 000 young people is expected in November 2005. That follows a trend over recent years which has seen visitation numbers grow from 500 young people in 2000 to 3 500 in 2004. Visitor numbers in some communities is smaller. For example, about 500 students are expected in Kalbarri, which is closer to the member’s electorate. Considering what has occurred on the eastern seaboard, it is anticipated that the number of students in some coastal areas will also grow and, because of that, there is significant potential for harm and disorder. The Office of Crime Prevention and the Western Australia Police Service is considering strategies to minimise that harm and disorder. The Office of Crime Prevention is establishing a senior officers’ working group on school-leaver event coordination and will dedicate 0.5 of a full-time equivalent to the coordination of a school-leaver program. It is also supporting local communities in their efforts to manage school leavers, including providing a central coordination point for relevant funding programs and organising an annual community planning workshop. It is also funding 0.2 of an FTE as a coordinator in the south west region given the particular circumstances of Dunsborough and nearby towns. In an effort to support those local communities, $80 000 has been made available to assist them in their planning for the school-leavers’ week. The overall budget comprises 0.5 of a level 6 FTE as a program manager at a cost $45 000; an annual key-stakeholder workshop at a cost of $18 000; resource development and printing at a cost of $10 000; and, a 0.2 of a level 4 FTE coordinator in the south west region, including $2 000 for travel, totalling $15 000. Funding of $80 000 has been provided for the community groups, which I previously mentioned. Mrs C.A. MARTIN: Will the minister describe what events will take place in the planned community safety month? Mr R.F. JOHNSON: Mr Chairman, can we move on because government members are stalling the proceedings and taking up too much time? The CHAIRMAN (Mr J.R. Quigley): I ask for members’ forbearance because there are only two more questions on the list. Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: Community safety month was initiated in October 2004 to raise public awareness about community safety, the prevention of injuries and the reduction in violence and crime. In 2004, community safety month successfully raised community awareness through the promotion of risk reduction and safe practices. In 2005 we hope to build on the successes of that event. As well as showcasing existing community safety programs, we will be developing new ones. The themes for this year’s community safety month are crime prevention, work safety, emergency services, road safety and injury prevention. The combined event will involve a range of events involving community schools, government agencies and community organisations. Last year some 100 events were coordinated as part of community safety month. This year I expect it to be bigger and better. Ms M.M. QUIRK: I refer the minister to the fourth dot point on page 99 of the Budget Statements which deals with community safety and crime prevention partnerships. I note that more than 60 local government authorities have signed up to the partnership. Will the minister advise the progress of the other 80 or so local government authorities signing up [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E99 to the partnership? In particular, and for the benefit of the member for Hillarys, I would like to know what is happening in the Cities of Joondalup, Wanneroo and Stirling. Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: I anticipate that, based on the current progress, by the end of 2005-06 90 local government authorities will have signed up. I would like that number to be higher. Hopefully, the City of Stirling is not far away from signing up. I am not sure of the status of the other two authorities. A meeting has been organised in Joondalup in the next fortnight. Sadly, I cannot advise what is happening with Wanneroo. So far it has not indicated much willingness to be involved in the partnership. I hope that that will change in the near future. The appropriation was recommended. [10.20 am] Division 37: Police Service, $713 170 000 - Mr J.R. Quigley, Chairman. Mrs M.H. Roberts, Minister for Police and Emergency Services. Mr K.J. O’Callaghan, Commissioner of Police. Mr T.J. Atherton, Deputy Commissioner. Mr C.J. Dawson, Deputy Commissioner, Standards and Reform. Ms J.C. Harrison-Ward, Executive Director. Mr J.G. Lord, Director, Asset Management. Mr P.M. de Mamiel, Director of Finance. Mr J. Butcher, Acting Director, Corporate Programs and Development. Ms M.M. QUIRK: I refer the minister to page 584, and the decisions taken prior to the state election about 350 additional police officers and 160 civilian officers. How many additional police officers have been approved in 2005- 06? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: Following on from the government’s successful program to recruit an additional 250 police officers and 40 extra Aboriginal police liaison officers in its last term of government, the government committed itself in this term to recruit an additional 350 sworn police officers and 160 additional civilian staff. As part of this commitment, an additional 80 police officers and 40 civilian staff above the attrition rate will be recruited in 2005-06. Mr T.K. WALDRON: I refer the minister to page 589 of the Budget Statements under major achievements for 2004- 05. The final dot point on that page reads - Ensured all six metropolitan district police stations operated on a 24-hour, seven day a week basis through the deployment of additional police staff to these stations in order to improve frontline policing services to the community. How many of the eight country district police stations currently operate on a 24-hour, seven-day-a-week basis? Which ones are they? If some do not, which ones will in the future? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: The metropolitan offices are Fremantle, Cannington, Midland, Joondalup, Mirrabooka and Perth City Police Station at Curtin House. They have all been open to the public on a 24-hour, seven-day-a-week basis since March 2004. The commissioner will respond about the country stations. Mr K.J. O’Callaghan: Bunbury, Albany, Geraldton, Karratha, Broome, Kalgoorlie and Northam are all 24-hour, seven-day-a-week services. Mr S.R. HILL: I refer the minister to page 584 of the Budget Statements. What are the benefits from the expansion of the services provided by the canine section, particularly in the light of the recent announcement of the intention to expand them into regional Western Australia? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: The member for Geraldton has probably been the biggest advocate in recent years for expanding the canine section. In fact, he provided much of the impetus behind the government giving the commitment to expand the canine section. He has also promoted Geraldton very strongly. As members will be aware, the government has committed to expand the canine section, and to increase the range of services it currently provides. To this end, the government is investing $3.444 million over the next four years. Of that, $599 000 will be expended in 2005-06. For the first time, there will be permanent general-purpose canine services in Kalgoorlie, Albany and Geraldton. Additional services will be provided to Bunbury and the metropolitan area. The Police Service will also train and deploy two special purpose firearm and explosive dogs and develop a much-needed breeding program to ensure an ongoing supply of suitable dogs for police work. The breeding program is an issue I need to speak on specifically. It is needed to increase the number of dogs available to meet both current and future needs. To increase the operational effectiveness, we must reduce the number of

E100 [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] behavioural issues with the dogs that require extra training hours to resolve, and breed a higher standard of dogs. The dogs will be able to respond to serious crime. There will be targeted patrolling of high-crime areas in support of crime prevention initiatives. They can assist in the tracking and apprehension of offenders. They can also assist in crowd control and in response to noisy parties, demonstrations and riots. They can provide less than lethal force options for high-risk incidents, such as sieges and armed offender situations. They can also assist police in large public events, including incidents in which antisocial behaviour is of concern. Mr M.J. COWPER: I refer to the figure given on page 600 of $10 million for new replacement aircraft. Can the minister advise about any additional funding to support those aircraft, such as in the areas of training for staff and the ongoing costs of keeping those aircraft in the air, such as fuel? Has any thought been given to additional funding to support that role? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: Calculations have been done on those things, and I ask Mr de Mamiel to respond. Mr P.M. de Mamiel: Two new aircraft will replace ageing aircraft. The new aircraft are more efficient and we believe that the existing funding for the two aircraft that will be replaced will be adequate to fund the new aircraft. We do not expect any increase in costs. I do not have the costs here with me. If it is required, the minister could perhaps provide some supplementary information. Mr M.J. COWPER: I understand that pilots require a certain rating to operate these aircraft. I am not familiar with what their qualifications are, but I understand that pilots will require extra training to operate those aircraft. Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: I will supply some clarification for the member. We expect to be able to meet these costs fully from the existing budget. Already, as I understand it, the pilots have had additional training in South Australia. They need to build up some flight hours in this level of aircraft. That is all being managed within the existing budget. I understand that there is no need for additional money, and the benefits of having the new aircraft will be fantastic. Mr M.J. COWPER: Will this impact on the operations of the police helicopter? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: It is not anticipated that there will be any negative impact at all on the operating hours of the other aircraft in the fleet. The CHAIRMAN (Mr J.R. Quigley): Before I give the call to the next member, will the minister need to supply supplementary information? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: No. [10.30 am] Ms M.M. QUIRK: The last dot point on page 590 refers to the Road Traffic (Impounding and Confiscation of Vehicles) Act 2004. Are any amendments proposed to that legislation and how has the so-called antihoon legislation been faring? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: Yes, we are proposing some legislative changes. We want the police to be able to impound a vehicle based on statements obtained from independent witnesses. We want the photographic or video evidence to be able to be used as proof for the impounding and confiscating of a vehicle. We also want to amend the legislation so that the courts can impound a vehicle when a driver is convicted of a newly prescribed offence, and a vehicle can be impounded when a person is involved in a road-rage incident. We committed to adding road rage to that list of instances during the election campaign. I can also report, from talking to police officers on the ground, that they are particularly keen to have the ability to confiscate a vehicle when someone is travelling 45 kilometres an hour over the limit, without having to demonstrate an intent. To someone like me, it sounds pretty clear. Although I can fully appreciate that someone, particularly in a state of stress or whatever, might travel at five, 10 or even 20 kmh over the limit, I do not think that anybody would travel at 45 kmh over the limit without doing so deliberately or without knowing. That is another area I would like to look at when the legislation is ready for introduction. We also intend to put in place a new reporting system so that we can better deal with the public’s complaints to police. I expect to be able to introduce that legislation during the spring session in the later part of this year. It would involve changes to the Road Traffic Act; in fact, I used the opportunity last week when I attended the police ministers’ conference to have some further discussions with officers in Queensland and people from the minister’s office in Queensland. Our legislation is modelled on the Queensland legislation. I note that Victoria has now introduced antihoon legislation. Ours was the second state in Australia to have done so. We have also had the benefit of the review that was undertaken in Queensland. Meeting suspended from 10.32 to 10.45 am Mr T.K. WALDRON: Further to the question from the member for Geraldton on the canine section, which is referred to at the second dot point on page 591, will the dog squad be in place and operational during 2005-06? Given that there seem to be escalating crime problems in Geraldton, do other areas in the budget contain initiatives to try to address the problems? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: I can give some more specifics on what is occurring with the canine section. Two experienced canine officers have indicated a desire to be appointed to regional Western Australia. Two dogs have been selected for [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E101 participation in the current course. Training of the dogs takes some 18 weeks. In order to be trained, the dogs must be at least 18 months old. The selection process for dog handlers can take up to six months, which includes an interview process and an 18-week training course. The breeding program has been funded with $146 000 for its development in 2005-06. The canine section will identify suitable breeding stock and arrange the necessary contract and tendering process. It is likely this will be achieved in the early 2005-06 fiscal year. The time line allows for an initial single litter. However, in subsequent years it will be necessary to sustain the number of dogs required for training, so between May and August 2005 we will identify suitable breeding stock. From August 2005 to March 2006 we will take possession of pups, develop suitable pups until 12 months of age, X-ray them and assess their suitability for training. Between March and May 2006 we will continue to develop the dogs in preparation for their respective handlers, who will be ready to commence training on a general purpose training course. The breeding program will ensure that the Western Australia Police Service has a long-term placement expansion strategy in place. The canine units in regional Western Australia will be established at Geraldton, Kalgoorlie, Albany and Bunbury. Each will have one experienced dog handler and one novice dog handler, with an additional handler being placed at Bunbury. Placements will be in line with the breeding program. Between October 2005 and May 2007 selection and training of dog handlers, asset procurement and sourcing and training of suitable dogs will take place. Appointments will be made to Geraldton and Kalgoorlie during this time. In 2007 to 2008, depending on the breeding program, general purpose training and appointment of dog handlers will occur at Bunbury and Albany. The programs to have dogs fully in place at both Geraldton and Kalgoorlie will not be complete until May 2007. They will commence in October 2005 and will be completed in May 2007. Mr T.K. WALDRON: Are there any other initiatives in the budget to try to address some of the problems with crime in Geraldton? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: I have highlighted some of the programs under the Office of Crime Prevention estimates. In addition, the member will be aware that over the past four years we funded the Yamatji Patrol and established the sobering-up shelter in Geraldton, both of which have had a significant impact. I reject the assertion that crime is on the increase in Geraldton; it is not. However, that does not mean that a lot more cannot be done to deter crime in Geraldton. Mr K.J. O’Callaghan: The other thing we must take into account with recruiting is that a significant proportion of the 350 additional personnel for the Police Service - we must still work out the actual number - will go to regional Western Australia. Geraldton will receive an increase in staff due to that process. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: On page 603 the first line of cash flows from operating activities refers to employee benefits. Set out there are $355.1 million in 2003-04 and $407 million as the estimated actual for 2004-05, which is a difference of $52.8 million, or 14.9 per cent, in that one year. During that period staff increased from 5 968 FTEs to 6 170 FTEs, which is an increase of 202 FTEs, or 3.4 per cent. From reading the budget papers, it would appear there is a wage rise cost in that one year of 11.5 per cent. Can the minister explain that? [10.50 am] Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: I can explain the difference. The 2003-04 actual was based on a year prior to the latest enterprise bargaining agreement. The EBA was a significant win for police officers’ wages and conditions. That is why the budget for 2004-05 was increased to the $460 million that the member referred to. The estimated actual for 2004-05 is $407.93 million. Yes, there are additional police officers and public servants. The most significant part of the increase is the EBA that was negotiated and the subsequent increase in wages. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: Did staff in the Police Service receive an 11.5 per cent increase in wages during that year? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: No. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: It is what it states here. The minister referred to the increase; I thought it was over three years. Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: The member cannot manipulate figures in the way he has and jump to the conclusion he has. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: I am only asking the minister a question. She should not try to be flash with me. The CHAIRMAN: The member should pose a question to the minister; this is not a forum for an argument. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: Yes, and I would appreciate an honest answer. Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: The member has the answer. There are additional police officers and other staff. In addition, there is the cost of the EBA. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: The EBA did not show an 11.5 per cent wage increase in one year. If it did, the public did not hear about it. Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: In comparing the 2004-05 budget with the 2005-06 budget, there has been a general provision for salary increases for CSA staff and sworn staff due to the EBA. The difference is $11.718 million. There has been progression of the plan to recruit an additional 350 police officers as well as the civilianisation of 160 positions. That will cost $5.991 million. The full-year cost of the 2003 EBA is $4.448 million. The last figure is an example of a figure not fully calculated into the 2003-04 figure.

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Mr M.J. COWPER: I refer to page 583. According to my calculations, the total budget increase for the next financial year is in the vicinity of $54 million. I refer also to the second dot point at page 584, which refers to the implementation and effects of the Gordon inquiry. Nine new police stations are to be built in regional Western Australia at Aboriginal communities that are listed at page 599. The cost of the new police stations is somewhat interesting. Kalumburu police station is stated to cost approximately $3.2 million. My understanding is that the total cost will be $3.7 million. Each of the houses will cost approximately $500 000. As there will be three houses at that station, that is a total of $1.5 million. The total cost is about $5.2 million. As there will be nine stations - which is a recommendation of the Gordon inquiry - the project will cost approximately $50 million. In addition, $10 million is allocated for Police Service aircraft. The figure exceeds the $54 million in real terms of the increase in the Police Service budget for this year. What is the minister’s response to that? How will that affect the operational budget of the Police Service when it comes to addressing other parts of police core business, particularly the traffic enforcement group? The traffic enforcement group has been subject to media comment in recent times. My understanding is that approximately 1 000 tickets are issued each week. If the average infringement cost is $150, it means that $150 000 is being returned to general revenue every week. I understand that the Police Service has committed 25 full-time equivalent positions, which have been taken from various other locations, to increase the staff level of the traffic enforcement group. Is there any part of the budget that is hidden that will provide an increase to operational front-line policing in the light of the other imposts on the budget? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: The member appears to be mixing the capital budget and the recurrent budget. He started by referring to the recurrent budget and the real increase in the recurrent budget on an annual basis. He then referred to a number of items that are clearly part of the capital budget. For example, the construction of police stations and the purchase of aeroplanes are capital budget items. The government announced its commitment to purchase new aeroplanes over the next few years at a cost of $10 million and the building of a new city watch house and related projects at a cost of $80 million. Those items are in the capital budget and do not show in the recurrent figures that the member has looked at on page 583. He has referred to the recurrent figures, the largest component of which is wages as the member for Hillarys well knows. The capital items have separate allocations of funding. It cannot be suggested that they somehow impact on operational policing because they do not; they are two separate categories. The purchase of aeroplanes and the building of police stations are capital items and provided for separately. [11.00 am] Mr M.J. COWPER: Is the minister saying that, in real terms, the additional $54 million is not factored into the capital cost of those buildings? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: That is right. The capital expenditure commitments of our government are over and above the increase in the recurrent budget. Ms M.M. QUIRK: I refer to the first major achievement for 2004-05 on page 592, which refers to the establishment of a new counter terrorism and state protection unit. What further action will be taken to maximise the readiness for emergency management services against a terrorist attack? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: In November 2004, a superintendent was appointed to manage a counter terrorism coordination unit. That unit is in its developmental stage with a review under way to identify the unit’s resource requirements and business strategies. In line with giving counter terrorism a high priority, in March this year a portfolio of counter terrorism and state protection was created with the appointment of an assistant commissioner to head the portfolio and to commence a review of counter terrorism strategic direction requirements. The portfolio now encompasses state protection services, the counter terrorism coordination unit, the state security unit, the tactical response group and the witness security and emergency operations unit. Among its roles the state security unit encapsulates the counter terrorism intelligence and critical infrastructure coordination. The emergency operations unit moved in 2005 from the traffic operations portfolio to the counter terrorism and state protection portfolio. The Police Service must maintain a high level of liaison with other emergency services to ensure cooperation on plant and equipment purchases and training programs associated with both counter terrorism and emergency management, including the ability to link resources to develop interagency training, shared knowledge and skills base. Training is in place to develop a strategic major-incident management program with high-level personnel. That program will underpin current skills while introducing participants to the best principles of incident management. They are already in place. Some significant exchanges of information have occurred with a range of federal agencies and other state government agencies. The CHAIRMAN: The order I have before me is the member for Geraldton, followed by the members for Wagin, Hillarys, Girrawheen, Kimberley and Murray. Mr S.R. HILL: I refer the minister to the major policy decisions listed on page 584. Will the minister clarify the budget item of $141 000 in the 2005-06 budget estimate column for criminal records screening? Mr R.F. JOHNSON: These dorothy dix questions make these estimates an absolute mockery. This committee is not accountable. [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E103

The CHAIRMAN: I am not interested in this debate. All members have an opportunity to ask questions. Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: Legislation for working with children in Western Australia will be introduced to define mandatory employment criminal record checks. It will establish standards and procedures for issuing positive certification of criminal record screening for people seeking employment in child-related industries, and standards to ensure that applications are afforded natural justice and that all information is ethically managed, as part of the bill. The $141 000 is allocated to the development of that proposed legislation and its implementation. That is an excellent initiative and something that our government is very proud of. Mr T.K. WALDRON: The first major initiative for 2005-06 on page 590 refers to the recruitment of an additional 350 police officers. I think the commissioner has partly answered this. Will any of the additional 350 police officers and 160 civilian police staff, be appointed to country areas? I was hoping to find out the numbers and where they are to be located, but based on what the commissioner said previously, that is apparently not possible at this stage. How many of our regional police stations will continue to operate below their authorised levels following the appointment of those officers? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: In a nutshell, the answer is a resounding yes, some of those additional 350 officers will be sent to man country police stations. Some of the public servants will also go to country police stations. The commissioner can respond on the deployment issue. Mr K.J. O’Callaghan: We budgeted for just under a third of those 350 officers being posted to regional Western Australia. The final numbers are not available yet. We still have some work to do on the allocation. I cannot give the member for Wagin the police district breakdown. Authorised strength applies to district level and not so much police station level, so that superintendents have the flexibility to move police officers to and from police stations according to demand. The member may be aware that, particularly in the mid west and Gascoyne region, we recently abolished all single-person stations. They have all been upgraded to operate with two people. The mid west, Gascoyne and wheatbelt districts, which have the bulk of the one-person stations, will be provided with increases quite soon. Mr T.K. WALDRON: Those figures include the personnel to upgrade one-man police stations to two, which is great and includes my area. The CHAIRMAN: The minister must answer first. Mr T.K. WALDRON: With those additional placements, will housing issues be addressed in some country towns? The housing issue in Wickepin has probably been solved in conjunction with the shire. However, there is a housing issue in Dumbleyung. Will a housing program be implemented or will that be worked out with local government bodies? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: One of the issues in upgrading stations from one-person to two-person stations was housing. A couple of the stations were only ever one-person stations so no other housing was available at those locations. The rest of the stations had been two-person stations, which had been downgraded during the conservative government’s term. The housing issues were part of the reason it was difficult to deploy more staff to them. They were addressed with local government on a case-by-case basis. Although housing in some country towns is of an excellent standard, in some other towns it is not what we would like it to be. Clearly, if we are deploying officers to country areas, housing is part and parcel of that deployment. The budget allocation for the additional police officers was sought on the basis that about a third of them would be posted to country areas and that additional housing costs would arise as part of that. Yes, those additional costs have been factored into the budget for those 350 officers. However, those issues will be worked through on a town-by-town basis by the Western Australia Police Service and the Commissioner of Police’s office. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: I refer to the third item on page 587 under “Outcome: Lawful road-user behaviour” which refers to the percentage of drivers tested for drink-driving who are found to exceed the lawful alcohol limit. After the initial breath-test reading, how many individuals are taken to the police station and found to be under the legal limit? Are the hand-held breathalyser test units Australian standards certified and registered? [11.10 am] Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: Off the top of my head I cannot tell the member what proportion of people blow over .05 in the initial test and then subsequently blow under .05 at the police station. There are legitimate reasons that that would occur. One of those reasons is that during the time between the initial test and the second test, a person’s blood alcohol level may go up or down. Although I do not have the note in front of me, the advice to me is that the hand-held machines are accurate. I believe they meet the Australian standards. I am certainly advised that they are the same type of units as are used in Victoria, New South Wales, Queensland and South Australia. I do not have the figures for what percentage of people blow over .05 or .08 at the initial test and under .05 or .08 at the subsequent test. I am not sure that those figures are maintained. The commissioner may be able to provide more information about the equipment or the figures. Mr K.J. O’Callaghan: The preliminary test that is done on the side of the road is done using a piece of equipment called the Lion alcometer. It is important to understand that the Lion alcometer is a preliminary breath testing device

E104 [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] only. That is not to say these devices are inaccurate, because they are tested regularly and meet the Australian standards. However, it is always understood that they provide preliminary advice only. The police officer can then, if the reading is over the legal limit, request the driver to go to a police station and undergo a test on a breathalyser machine that is made by Dräger. It must be noted that the preliminary test that is taken on the side of the road is affected by the time of the last drink. If the driver had his or her last drink quite recent to the time of the preliminary test, the reading will tend to be inflated slightly, because there will be traces of alcohol in the saliva. If that occurs, the reading at the roadside may be different from the reading that is done on the Dräger breathalyser machine. Typically, there is at least a fifteen-minute gap between the preliminary test and the main breathalyser test. Part of the reason for that, apart from the logistics of taking people to a police station to do a test on the Dräger breathalyser machine, is to allow time for the alcohol in the mouth to dissipate. That is one explanation for why there may sometimes be a different reading in the preliminary test. The machines are tested, and they are accurate. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: The minister said that the machines are Australian standard certified. Is the minister certain of that? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: The commissioner repeated that when he gave his answer. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: No, he did not say that. He said they were accurate and were tested regularly. Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: That is what I understood the commissioner to say at the beginning of his answer. Why not let the commissioner repeat what he said? Then the member will not need to speculate, and nor will I. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: I am asking the minister the question. Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: I am asking the commissioner to respond. Mr K.J. O’Callaghan: I do not have with me the details of which Australian standards the machines meet. We do test them, and they are accurate. If the member requires further details of which Australian standard they meet, I will need to provide that as supplementary information. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: I ask for that as supplementary information. Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: I am happy to provide that as supplementary information. [Supplementary Information No B1.] Ms M.M. QUIRK: I refer to the first dot point on page 598, which talks about establishing a new program relating to the piloting of repeat drink-driving strategies aimed at enhancing the prosecution of recidivist drink-driving offenders. How is that program progressing? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: I thank the member for the question. That is one of the programs that have been developed in partnership with the Office of Road Safety. A working group has been established to draft legislation. We expect to be able to implement that program during 2005-06. The repeat drink-driver strategies that will be included in the legislative package include amendments to the penalties contained in the Road Traffic Code 2000. The working committee to which I have referred includes the police, the Office of Road Safety, local governments and the Royal Automobile Club of WA. Mrs C.A. MARTIN: I refer to the second dot point on page 584. What is the progress of the program to implement the recommendations of the Gordon inquiry? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: I will try to make this as brief as I can. We have prioritised areas for a permanent policing presence through the multifunction police facilities. They will be at Warburton, Kalumburu, Balgo, Jigalong, Dampier Peninsula, Bidyadanga, Warmun and Warakurna, and also at Kintore, which is in the Northern Territory but services the Kawi Kurra community. Apart from providing baseline security as police stations, these centres will have multi-agency use, so there will be better joint relationships between health workers, educators, police and the Department for Community Development officers, with the main aim of strengthening child protection and putting in place violence prevention strategies. The strategic policy on police and Aboriginal people has been completed and released. Fourteen child protection and family violence officers have been appointed to the eight country and six metropolitan districts. Training has been delivered in all districts, including to 457 senior police and 400 members of key external agencies. The specialist child interview unit has commenced operations and occupies premises in Subiaco in co-location with Princess Margaret Hospital for Children. To date that unit has conducted nearly 400 interviews. There is also a training package for staff on interviewing child victims. Twenty-four staff have completed that training. Country training is about to commence. Discussions are under way with the judiciary with regard to adopting the interviews of children and ensuring that the equipment used in the courts is updated to facilitate that process. Additional Aboriginal police liaison officers have been put in place. I will leave it at that. If the member wants information about any of the individual sites, many of which are in the member’s electorate, I am more than happy to provide that information. Mrs C.A. MARTIN: I would be interested in the sites that are specific to the electorates of Kimberley and Central Kimberley-Pilbara, because there is some overlap there. Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: The member would be aware that Kintore is open. Bidyadanga, which is just south of Broome, is scheduled for development in 2005-06. We have put in place an interim services strategy at Bidyadanga, and we [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E105 have negotiated interim housing and office space. The deployment of permanent officers at Bidyadanga has been brought forward. An officer in charge was appointed in March this year. The second officer commenced recently. The total budget for that project is over $2 million. In Kalumburu, housing was an issue, but the permanent deployment of one officer in Kalumburu commenced in December of last year. That officer is currently being assisted by other officers. The preferred site for the multifunction police facility has now been selected. The Department of Housing and Works has advised that steps are being taken to appoint an architect. It is anticipated that the facility will be constructed by mid-2006 at an estimated cost of just under $3.3 million. The housing at Balgo has been completed, and two police officers commenced permanent deployment in Balgo in February this year. The tender for the multifunction police facility closed in October 2004. We expect the handover of this facility very shortly, and it will be opened in the next few months. [11.20 am] Mr M.J. COWPER: I refer to page 590 of the Budget Statements and the major initiatives of the recruitment of an additional 350 police officers, and the recruitment of 160 additional police staff to support the Frontline First program over the next four years. I understand that roughly 80 police officers and 40 civilian staff will be recruited per annum over the next four years. I am concerned about the precursor that the number of officers will be over and above the Police Service attrition rate. I understand that the attrition rate has increased over the past four years; that is, 170 officers left the service in 1999 and about 220 officers left the service last year. Something like 100 resignations have occurred so far this calendar year. How do we factor in the calculation over and above the attrition rate? The other part of the question relates to whether the calculation applies for the term of government or are the additional 350 officers to be calculated on an annual basis? I have had some difficulty finding reference to the additional 250 police officers in the Police Service over the past four years. I could refer only to the Western Australia Police Service annual report, which outlines the number of police officers currently employed. In real terms, only 202 additional officers have joined the service over the past four years, according to the - The CHAIRMAN (Mr P.W. Andrews): I have lost track of where the member started from. Mr M.J. COWPER: How do we arrive at the additional 350 police officers? Second, how is the attrition rate factored into that calculation? Third, no clear definition is given on how to arrive at the figure: I refer here to the history of the government’s previous commitment to provide an additional 250 police officers. According to the Western Australia Police Service annual report, only 202 additional officers joined the service during that period. Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: I start with a history lesson. The number of police officers prior to the Labor Party coming to government was 4 698. This government added 250 officers, to make a total of 4 948 officers. As I have confirmed, 80 additional police officers and 40 additional other police staff will join the service this year. Currently, it is proposed to have 80 additional police officers recruited in 2005-06, and 90 officers in each of the following three years of 2006-07, 2007-08 and 2008-09. Therefore, three times 90, plus 80, will make up the 350 officers. Other police staff recruitment will be 40 additional staff a year - 40 times four equals 160. Yes, those figures are over and above attrition. Although some fluctuations occur in the number of police officers who leave the service in any given month, and, indeed, fluctuations occur from year to year, the Police Service is required to monitor those fluctuations to ensure that recruitment is made for both attrition and to meet the target of 80 additional police officers, and the 90 additional police officers in the following years. What was the further part of the question? Mr M.J. COWPER: When are the books ruled off? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: I am sorry; I was getting to that. Essentially, the commitment is for the financial year, but, of course, the result will depend on activities at the recruit school. The budget provides for 80 additional police officers in 2005-06, and 90 officers in each of the subsequent years. One assumes that a state election will be held in February 2009, or thereabouts, and 90 additional police officers are to be provided in the 2008-09 year. Whether those officers will be in place by the end of February or at the end of June will depend upon the point of the financial year at which those officers pass through the recruit school. However, the officers will certainly be in place by the end of June of that year; they may well be in place earlier. Mr M.J. COWPER: On a point of clarification, the minister just confirmed that the calculation operated from fiscal year to fiscal year, as opposed to terms of government. Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: That is how budgets work, yes. Mr M.J. COWPER: If that is the case, the Police Service annual report, the only information I could access in this regard, indicates that the increase in police numbers over the past four years was only an additional 202 officers. Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: The member is wrong again. We could go into historical facts. Essentially, the authorised strength of the Police Service is the number of full-time equivalent officers for whom Treasury funds the service each year. That authorised strength was increased by some 250 officers over that period, and we provided those warm bodies, so to speak, into the Police Service. Mr M.J. COWPER: May I ask -

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Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: I am giving the answer. The opposition often appears to be misled by looking at the number of officers in the service on any given day. The transfer from the Maylands Police Academy to the Joondalup Police Academy took place in 2001. To ensure that the number of officers in the service did not drop to a low level at that time, additional police officers were trained in the lead-up to the transfer of the academy to Joondalup. I believe no new recruits were taken into the academy for nine months as a result of the shift between Maylands and Joondalup. Whatever the word is, we “uploaded” or “overengaged” well above our usual number in the lead-up to that transfer. In that latter part of the 2000-01 financial year, police officer numbers, the authorised strength, were built up well above the number for which the service was funded from Treasury because recruits could not be taken on for some months. That explains the difference in figures. Mr M.J. COWPER: By way of a supplementary question - The CHAIRMAN: We will come back to the member for Murray, who has had three questions. He will have plenty of opportunity to ask further questions. He should not worry. Mr T.K. WALDRON: I refer to the completed works list on page 599 of the Budget Statements and the line item reading - State-wide Office and Cell Block Upgrade Program - Stage 3 I refer to the concerns expressed by the Nationals in 2004 in relation to the poor state of holding cells in country police stations. I have raised the state of cells before. Narrogin is the only station between Albany and Perth in which prisoners can be held overnight. Safety issues prevent other stations being used in this way. Has any of the $7.624 million spent to 30 June 2005 been directed to fix these problems in country police stations? Will a program be provided to upgrade cells so prisoners may be held overnight, rather than officers being required to transport prisoners, which takes officers away from police stations and poses other safety issues for the police and the public? It is a real problem. Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: I will ask the commissioner to respond to that question in a moment. There is always a danger in holding prisoners overnight in small country police stations. Although some burden is involved in transferring alleged offenders to a neighbouring police station, and although time is involved in the transfer, the longer-term issues involved in monitoring prisoners overnight can be even more onerous than the transportation. This is especially the case following the report of the Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody. Mr T.K. WALDRON: I am not talking about such upgrade in every police station. As I understand it - I may stand corrected - Narrogin is the only police station to have such holding cells of all stations between Albany and Perth, which is a huge area of the state. Also, problems are caused locally when police are away from stations. [11.30 am] Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: From my point of view, these decisions in a sense are best made operationally by police, who need to determine whether it is a more efficient use of resources for them to house offenders in smaller country police stations or to transfer them to larger country police stations. That is determined on a professional basis. However, there are significant issues of the duty of care. I will ask Josephine Harrison-Ward to respond to the member’s specific question. Ms J.C. Harrison-Ward: I advise that some cells have been upgraded in Katanning, Narrogin and Albany. Another cell is under construction at Wagin. In terms of the overall program, to date we have completed and upgraded 98 country locations and another five cells are under construction. This will continue as part of our yearly maintenance and upgrade program. Mr T.K. WALDRON: Will the upgrades at Katanning and Wagin allow police to hold prisoners overnight? Ms J.C. Harrison-Ward: I have to pass operational issues to the Commissioner of Police. Mr K.J. O’Callaghan: It will enable us to hold prisoners overnight. Ideally, many country station officers in charge would rather transport prisoners to larger country centres because if a prisoner is held at a station all night, he or she has to be guarded all night by a police officer. A police officer must be present. Typically, that results in removing a police officer from patrolling the roads or having to recall police officers to manage the prisoners. Although they are capable of doing that - on occasions I am sure that some prisoners will stay overnight - the officers in charge will try to transport them to a major centre. In the case of Katanning, for argument’s sake, a prisoner may be taken to Narrogin or back to Albany. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: I refer to the first dot point under major achievements on page 589 of the Budget Statements, which highlights the reduction in the number of reported offences - I emphasise the word “reported”. That is good news. Will the minister advise in what areas there has been an increase in crime? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: Essentially, the budget process includes major achievements; therefore, it is not likely that increases in crime are included as a major achievement. [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E107

One of the areas in which there has been an increase in crime is assault. That is partly because of the additional emphasis on domestic violence and partly because officers have been put into each of the districts. There is greater reporting in that area. Another area in which there has been an increase in crime is the breach of restraining orders. As the member would be aware, we have implemented a new system that allows police officers to put restraining orders in place. More restraining orders are in place and, compared with recent years, they are being better acted on by police. An increase in crime has occurred in some areas. As the member is aware, I table the quarterly police crimes statistics. That information is available through that process. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: Will the minister make those crime statistics available during this process? I understand that the minister has included all the good news bits in the budget. However, it is important that the public know the areas in which crime has increased. Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: That information is publicly available. Every year that I have been the Minister for Police and Emergency Services I have tabled the quarterly documents. I do not see any need to provide that information as part of this process when it is already publicly available. The statistics are also available on the police web site, which I recommend to all members. Ms M.M. QUIRK: I refer the minister to the first dot point on page 599 of the Budget Statements which refers to the Perth watch-house, the Perth police centre and the crime headquarters. Will the minister outline the government’s plans for the infamous Perth watch-house and Curtin House? Will the minister also advise the timing of the construction? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: I am delighted with this budget allocation. The state of the state’s finances and the fact that the Treasurer has kept the budget well and truly in surplus has meant that we have been able to make significant capital expenditure commitments. That is something that is often forgotten when people look at the budget surplus. If it is a big budget surplus, they often think it is money that could have been spent in another area. As the Treasurer is always pointing out, a large budget surplus means that our capacity to spend on capital works into the future is greatly enhanced. The $81 million that has been allocated is probably the biggest capital expenditure commitment in the history of the Western Australia Police Service. Essentially, the money will go towards the relocation of specialist crime portfolios from Curtin House to a new purpose-built facility at the police operational and support facility in Midland. Additions and upgrades to Curtin House will accommodate the Perth watch-house, the Perth police station and the central metropolitan district office. I also advise the member for Girrawheen that last week when I attended the police ministerial council in Brisbane I took the opportunity to visit the Brisbane watch-house, which, I was told, was completed in 1999. It is a state-of-the-art facility and its format is similar to what we intend to put in place at Curtin House. I was pleasantly surprised by the standard of the facility in Brisbane. The new facility will literally be worlds apart from the current watch-house. If we want to meet proper occupational health and safety standards for police officers, we cannot continue with the current Perth watch-house. It has been unsuitable for detainees and police officers for not only the past couple years but also the past couple of decades. This is a fantastic initiative. I understand that the estimated cost of alterations and additions to Curtin House to accommodate the watch-house and the Perth police centre is $37.3 million. The estimated cost of the new crime headquarters is $43.7 million. Construction on both projects is expected to commence in early 2007. Mr M.J. COWPER: How long will construction take? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: Construction will commence in 2007. Normally these things tend to take at least a year, sometimes 18 months. Total completion will not be before mid-2010. Mr M.J. COWPER: Will the minister provide details of the calculations involved in arriving at 250 additional police officers? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: I am prepared to provide that information. However, I will seek a ruling from you, Mr Chairman, because I am not sure whether it is a legitimate question to ask during these estimates. I cannot see the point of the member’s question given that I have provided that information time and again, including during previous estimates hearings. The former Commissioner of Police, Mr Barry Matthews, has sat in estimate committees and provided that information. I do not know whether it is necessary. In order to move above the current attrition rate - this happened in the last term of government - we monitor how many officers are leaving the force month by month. That is calculated and taken into account when deciding on the number of new recruits. [11.40 am] Mrs C.A. MARTIN: The minister is very progressive in bringing the Police Service into the twenty-first century and in the use of technology as a tool for crime fighting. My question relates to the smarter policing policy as shown on page 584. Can the minister provide some more information on that? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: I thank the member for Kimberley for that question. The smarter policing policy is about improving the effectiveness of our police. We want them to have the latest technology to investigate crime and catch offenders. The most effective new tool that we have given the Police Service in the past four years is the DNA

E108 [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] processing equipment. In this budget we have allowed for the recruitment of 10 additional forensic scientists at a cost of $940 000. Their roles include the preparation of samples for analysis, processing samples and analysis results, and providing evidence to courts. We will also be purchasing a large DNA extraction robot. This was a commitment made during the election, and will cost $175 000. It will save an enormous amount of time and allow us to process DNA samples much more quickly and effectively. They will be able to process swabs from crime scenes. It will provide for a significant increase in volume and free up forensics staff for other work. We are also funding four smaller robots at a cost of $700 000. This will automate the process of the collection of DNA samples for analysis. There is also a $225 000 commitment for a large genetic analyser. This will add to the two large genetic analysers already in place and will increase the capacity to process the samples. We are also trialling the use of shoe impression equipment, known as shoemark identification collation and retrieval. It is a CrimTrac-recommended database system for the identification of footwear sole patterns. The canine pathfinder electrostatic dust mark lifter costs some $36 000, and will permit the acquisition of footwear evidence from crime scenes. We are also expanding the live scan fingerprint technology, which is linked with NAFIS, the National Automated Fingerprint Identification System. This allows for real-time identification of the fingerprints of arrested persons, and automatic registration into that national database. We have also funded the Western Australia Police Service for the acquisition of nine new live scan units at a cost of over $1 million. We are also upgrading the existing computer network to meet bandwidth requirements. We have put in place the automated numberplate recognition technology, which is paying huge dividends. Ongoing projects in the computer-aided dispatch and communications services police assistance centre resulted in the recent release and advertising of the new number 131 444. This was done at a cost of some $20 million. There is also an incident recording facility as part of that. We are also moving ahead with the metropolitan radio network and a range of other projects. As the member can see, it is not just about having better policing, it is about having smarter policing and giving police the tools they need to get on and do the job and catch criminals. Mrs C.A. MARTIN: Will the automated numberplate recognition technology be used in the regions, such as the Kimberley? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: We purchased those units in August 2004. They are in the traffic support division. We attach one permanently to booze bus operations, and the other is utilised on a rotational basis. I understand that it is already being deployed in regional areas of Western Australia and will continue to be deployed there. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: This is dorothy dixer 23 coming up. Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: I thank the member for all these dorothys. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: The minister may not be able to find the answer because she did not actually give me the question to ask. Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: The member for Hillarys’ questions are always the easiest. Mrs C.A. MARTIN: Get on with it. Ms M.M. QUIRK: Stop yakking. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: Go easy, guys; simmer down! This is not a difficult one for the minister. I referred to page 589. At the bottom of the page it is stated that six metropolitan district police stations are operating on a 24-hour, seven-day-a-week basis. Can the minister tell me if that is every police station, or are some police stations classed as different from others? For instance, as far as I am aware, the Hillarys Police Station is not open 24 hours a day, seven days a week. How many are open, and how many are not? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: At an earlier stage of today’s estimates committee, I announced that the major police stations in the north and south metropolitan regions were as follows - Fremantle, Cannington, Midland, Joondalup, Mirrabooka and the Perth City Police Station at Curtin House. They have been open to the public on a 24-hour, seven-day-a-week basis since March 2004. That means that their front counter is open to the public. Other police stations are staffed on a 24-hour, seven-day-a-week basis, but they do not necessarily have their front counters open for all those hours. The counter operating hours and the number of hours in which police are actually working out of the station can be two different things. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: My next question is linked to my previous one because it affects my electorate and those of my colleagues sitting further around the corner. How many patrol vehicles are on duty during the hours of darkness in the Joondalup zone? There have been a lot of complaints from people that there is only one. Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: I am not sure that the estimates committees are designed to answer that kind of question. The member has not referred to a page or line item. That is the sort of question I would have thought would be more appropriate to put on notice. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: I will give a page number and a line item. I refer to the key efficiency indicators on page 593. In that section is an item about responses to calls and whether they are priority 1, 2 or 3 calls. Let us consider only priority 3 calls. My question is quite simple one. How many patrol vehicles are there in the Joondalup zone during the night-time? [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E109

Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: The member is asking a very specific question about vehicles. He has drawn a very long bow to suggest that that is in any way related to the line item on page 593. I ask the member to put the question on notice, and then the Police Service will determine whether it is appropriate to release that kind of information. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: I take it that the minister is not prepared to answer that question, unless I put it on notice, in which case the answer will take three months to arrive, if it arrives at all. The CHAIRMAN (Mr P.W. Andrews): The minister has indicated the way in which that information will be provided. Mr T.K. WALDRON: I refer to works in progress under the capital works program on page 598. The fifth dot point says that building modifications under the police station upgrade program will continue. It is also listed under the works in progress as a line item on the next page. I note that $1 million has been allocated to this program for 2005-06. Will any of that go to country police stations? If so, how much and which police stations are receiving funding for upgrades? [11.50 am] Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: I think I can fairly confidently say that some of that would be for country police stations. Mr T.K. WALDRON: I ask because last year we raised some issues that we had with country police stations. Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: Gary Lord will be able to give the member more specific information. Mr J.G. Lord: The police station upgrading program will continue. The year 2005-06 is the second year of a four- year police station upgrade program. About $1 million in expenditure will occur in 2005-06. What will happen is currently under review. The list of items to be done has been put together. It will be forwarded to the executive by the end of the week for clarification in order to continue. Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: If I may interpret that a little, the formation of a program of improvements for this year is still in progress. It will be forwarded to the Commissioner of Police for his approval. Once the Commissioner of Police has ticked off on that list, I will be more than happy to let the member know which stations are being upgraded as part of that program. Ms M.M. QUIRK: The second dot point of major initiatives for 2005-06 on page 590 refers to various personnel practices. What action has been taken on implementing the royal commission recommendations for integrity testing and personnel vetting? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: Further integrity tests are being developed in conjunction with the Corruption and Crime Commission. The Australian Federal Police have also been contracted to train Western Australian police officers in advanced integrity testing techniques. The procurement of a suitable early warning profile system is also planned, but it does require further research. The drafting of legislation is being progressed. For personal vetting, a memorandum of understanding has been agreed with the Australian Security Vetting Service to perform personnel vetting for the Police Service, thereby providing an independent service. Members of the commissioner’s executive team will participate in the personnel vetting program before 30 June 2005. Initially vetting requirements will be applied to high-risk areas, such as the organised crime investigation unit, tactical investigation group, internal affairs unit and state security unit, and approximately 450 police officers and staff will be affected. The personnel vetting program will provide confidence to community and government that police officers, staff and senior executives working in high-risk areas are subject to stringent security clearance to work in those areas. An amount of some $1.2 million has been allocated over a period of the forward estimate for those initiatives. Mr M.J. COWPER: I refer to page 599 and works in progress. Will the budget have an allocation for CADCOM. Are all Western Australian police vehicles fitted with secure voice data communication systems? Do the Western Australian police have access to technology that allows them to locate every police car by global positioning systems? The CHAIRMAN: Can we take those one at a time? I will give the member further opportunities. Mr M.J. COWPER: They are all in the same field. The CHAIRMAN: I will allow further questions. Let us do them one at a time. What was the first question? Mr M.J. COWPER: What is the next phase of the Delta communications and technology program and the installation of on-board computers? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: I gather the member is talking about page 599. If the member looks at the works in progress and the CADCOM planning costs, the expenditures are listed there. If he looks at three lines below that and at Delta communications and technology, the expenditure is also listed there. I will refer to the Commissioner of Police who will respond to the other detail. Mr K.J. O’Callaghan: The Police Service recently signed a contract with Motorola and Union Switch and Signal Pty Ltd for the provision of the police metropolitan radio network, which is a digital radio network. It will provide secure

E110 [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] communications, better resourced deployment, improved officer productivity, improved emergency preparedness and improved apprehension clearance rates. As the member has pointed out, part of that process will be to provide an encrypted system. Digital radio technology is inherently encrypted anyway, so it provides a layer of protection for police officers who are using the communications network. It can also be enhanced to provide greater levels of encryption for special operations. We expect that by September of next year the mobile data terminals will be available in cars. There will be something like 866 in-vehicle radios, 1 784 hand-held radios, 150 fixed radios and 400 mobile data devices. With those data devices, officers will be able to do probably what is their bread and butter business, which is vehicle checks, name checks etc, directly from their car through mobile data. It will save them having to queue up on a radio traffic line, which they currently do and of which members may be aware. We also estimate that by early 2007 the automatic vehicle location will be in place, so we will be able to plot and see the positioning of police vehicles around the metropolitan area, which will provide a much greater level of safety and the ability to deploy vehicles quicker because we can identify whether they are close to an offence or incident that is occurring. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: On page 583, the third dot point of significant issues and trends relates to the ongoing implementation of the corruption prevention plan. Firstly, does the minister agree that her ministerial portfolio requires her to have the utmost integrity and the ability to keep confidential matters confidential? Secondly, after being briefed by the Commissioner of Police regarding the Leader of the Opposition, to whom did she speak about it? Thirdly, did she speak to John Arthur of the Government Media Office or Kieran Murphy about it? Fourthly, did any ministerial staff discuss it with either of them; and, if so, could the minister please give details? The CHAIRMAN: This is a consideration of the budget. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: It is in relation to that item, Mr Chairman. The CHAIRMAN: The minister can answer, but the question really needs to be directly related to a budget item. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: It is, Mr Chairman, under the third dot point. Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: By way of response, I reject any suggestion that I have spoken to any of the persons whom the member mentioned about the matter he is referring to. I keep things that are confidential, confidential. I reject totally and completely the implication of the question. Mr R.F. JOHNSON: As a supplementary, how many times has the minister released to the general public confidential information about a person who is innocent? The CHAIRMAN: Members, I will not allow that question. We will move on. Mrs C.A. MARTIN: I refer to page 600. Will the minister provide more detail of the government’s commitment to build a new $7.6 million police complex to service the Derby community? Can the minister advise why this station needs to be constructed and what progress will be made on this project in 2005-06? When is it anticipated that the station will be completed? [12 noon] Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: I suppose the real answer is that the station needs to be constructed because, otherwise, I think the member for Kimberley would kill me! The member for Kimberley has made me visit Derby Police Station on at least three occasions and pointed out to me how absolutely appalling it is. She pointed out the cells, which, I must say, are among the worst I have seen in this state. The number of hanging points there are more than disturbing. Whenever there are hanging points in inadequate facilities like that, it ties up a lot of staffing and resources. On all occasions I have visited the Derby Police Station, the officers have kept what is essentially not a very good station in excellent condition. That station was built in the 1960s and has had a host of minor alterations over its 40-year life to accommodate increasing staff numbers. I can reassure the member for Kimberley that the new station will meet contemporary policing standards. It will include office accommodation, interview rooms, custodial facilities, staff amenities and storage. The custodial facilities will also service the adjoining courthouse and assist in its management. The cost of the station is $7.6 million and the planned expenditure in 2005-06 is $400 000. The planning and design work will be undertaken in 2005-06 and occupancy of the new Derby police station is planned for late 2007. It is one of the stations that I will be delighted to be involved in the replacement of because the current station is clearly substandard and does not provide a suitable working environment for the officers. It is not a suitable environment in which to detain people. Mr T.K. WALDRON: I refer again to page 599 and the cell block upgrade program. Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: The member’s favourite topic! Mr T.K. WALDRON: I am pleased to hear of the upgrade of cell blocks; that is great. I support that. Will the new cells have video surveillance? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: Absolutely, yes. There is no way that we would build a new cell without video surveillance. In fact, the service is moving towards digital surveillance. [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E111

Mr T.K. WALDRON: I remember the Commissioner of Police saying that a police officer had to be present in the station. Does video surveillance enable a police officer to be at the station but also undertake other duties? Is the surveillance being installed so that the office does not have to spend all his time watching the cell? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: The television monitors are sometimes set up so that an officer can undertake front counter duties and also keep an eye on the screens. Mr T.K. WALDRON: Will video surveillance be made progressively available to other police stations? I give the example of the Williams Police Station. I have been told that if a person is held for three hours, he has to be physically watched for that time. Some prisoners have been held in paddy wagons because the police officers believe it is safer and easier to control the prisoners. Is there a program for the installation of cameras? I understand it cannot all be done at once. Could it be done on an ongoing basis? Mr K.J. O’Callaghan: We install cameras as part of a normal upgrade program. We are not necessarily installing video equipment in old police cells that are not fit for the purpose. It is futile to put a video surveillance camera in a cell that does not meet the requirements of the royal commission. Cameras are generally installed in connection with a total cell upgrade. Mr T.K. WALDRON: I understand why that is done. There is still an issue that could be looked at. I cite the example of Williams because I know the situation. If a prisoner is held, for example, for four hours, a police officer has to sit and watch the prisoner for that time. Are there plans for upgrades for those sorts of stations that will include video cameras? Mr K.J. O’Callaghan: I do not have details of the upgrades to the Williams Police Station or any other police stations in that area. However, it is something we can make available to the member. We can advise what will be upgraded in the next 12 months. I know the problem the member is referring to; many police officers have referred the same issue to me. As we upgrade the cells, we will install video surveillance cameras. Ms M.M. QUIRK: I refer to the last two dot points at page 594. They refer to liaison with other law enforcement agencies, most notably the Australian Federal Police. Given the very small numbers of AFP officers in Western Australia, does it create an additional impost on the Western Australia Police Service? There have been recent criticisms of the role of the Western Australia Police Service in airport security and monitoring drug smuggling. Are those criticisms justified? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: I am constantly disappointed at the lack of AFP presence in Western Australia. It has been reported to me that, with the overseas deployment of AFP officers, it is a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul. Although many state police services have contributed to overseas deployments, a significant number of AFP officers are permanently deployed to overseas locations. That reduces the number of AFP officers who are available to remain in Australia. It is my long-held view that the priority of the AFP and, more specifically, the federal government, has always been the eastern seaboard rather than the western seaboard. We would like a much stronger AFP presence in Perth. We would like the federal government to lift its game on airport security, particularly the number of Australian Customs Service staff and AFP involvement. Having said that, AFP officers in this state work extremely cooperatively with the Western Australia Police Service. I am not aware of any complaint by the Western Australia Police Service about the relationship it has with the AFP. The AFP officers based here work extremely well with the WAPS officers. In fact, at any given moment several WAPS officers are seconded on an almost permanent basis to work with the AFP. They do so very effectively. Mrs C.A. MARTIN: Has the government achieved its election promise from the previous term to provide an additional 40 Aboriginal police liaison officers, as indicated at page 589? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: I am pleased to advise that the government has met that promise. It was a very large proportionate increase. On 7 January this year, the final 10 of the 40 additional Aboriginal police liaison officers were deployed into the workplace. It took the total number of APLOs to 144. It was a much-needed injection. Whilst speaking of APLOs, I would very much like to see more indigenous people in the Police Service. For a number of years the service has been aiming at greater diversity. Both the Commissioner of Police and I would like to see more APLOs become constables and advance in the Police Service. In communities that have a lot of indigenous people, it is more than helpful to have officers with an indigenous background in the Police Service. Mr M.J. COWPER: I refer to the capital works program. I am trying to work out where a replacement program might be for the Western Australia Police Service. I cannot locate it. Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: What? Replace the whole service? Mr M.J. COWPER: No. I am referring to a replacement program for equipment. There is nothing in the budget to suggest that, for instance, bulletproof vests will be replaced. The police-issue vests have a warranty of five years. I know that the warranty on a lot of equipment is void because of the expiration of time. Another example is the new aircraft, which I am very keen to see in service. Is there a replacement program? The equipment will need replacement in five or 10 years. I failed to find anything in the budget that addresses the renewal schedule of police equipment.

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[12.10 pm] Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: A review was conducted recently of the air wing’s ongoing needs. That is why it was concluded that a bid should be mounted for the two new Polaris aircraft. A very recent complete review has been undertaken of the air wing’s ongoing needs and it has been appropriately budgeted for. I understand the Police Service is very happy with that budget. Allocations are made for other equipment on an ongoing basis. Mr M.J. COWPER: Where are they shown in the budget? Mr K.J. O’Callaghan: Reference to an ongoing equipment program is shown on page 599 under “Works in Progress”. It is funded with about $3 million, increasing to $5 million in the outer years. At this stage, the equipment replacement program is mainly aimed at safety equipment. When I became commissioner, I decided that we would use the bulk of the equipment replacement funding to replace safety equipment. Some items that are due for replacement include digital cameras, helmets, torches, road safety beacons, Alco metres and firearms cabinets. An extensive list has been asked for by the rank-and-file that involves safety equipment. We will consider that. They will be our priority over the next couple of years. Mr M.J. COWPER: The commissioner spoke about prioritising safety equipment. Is there any leeway in the budget for him to purchase other equipment? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: A range of items are listed on page 599 under “Works in Progress” for an estimated total amount of $14 million. Estimated expenditure in 2005-06 is $3.3 million. Replacement equipment purchases are shown under “Completed Works” on the same page. It shows that money has been spent on metal detectors, for example. Further down the list reference is made to a total estimated cost of $680 000 for the pistol replacement program. Further to the programs to which the member for Wagin referred, cameras and other items are replaced as part of upgrades at police stations. Ms M.M. QUIRK: I refer the minister to the first major initiative for 2005-06 on page 595 that refers to the consolidation of the operation of the police assistance centre to enhance service delivery to the community. What is being done in that regard? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: The member for Girrawheen will be aware that in May this year we launched a media advertising campaign for the 131444 number. At that time we announced that the police would be able to respond to calls within 30 seconds. A similar system in South Australia enables calls to be responded to within an average of about 20 seconds. When I visited the police assistance centre a couple of weeks ago, the average time taken to answer a call was about eight seconds. Various people in the community who have rung that number have indicated that they received a very quick response. I am delighted with that because when I was in opposition, I raised questions on numerous occasions about people not being able to get through to the police. People often tried to phone the police on a station number or the old 9222 1111 number and heard a recorded message, were placed on hold or were shunted from one system to the next. Even though they might have rung to report a stolen bicycle or a stolen lawnmower and it was not a life-threatening emergency that needed immediate police attendance, people worried about those delays or about being disconnected; they wondered what would have happened had they phoned the police because of a life-threatening situation or someone had been trying to break into their house. I hope this will provide the community with assurance. The 131444 number will be answered by a person within 30 seconds, and, more often than not, much sooner. That should give people a huge degree of reassurance. It is also about the Police Service becoming more oriented towards looking after the public need. Previously, people were often referred to a specific section and people felt as though they were being fobbed off. The police assistance centre is now able to connect them to the people they need to speak to and to ensure that follow-up occurs. We are now providing a much more professional service. In addition to the advertising regarding 131444, we can advertise more strongly that people should not call 000 unless it is a real emergency. I am told that 70 per cent of calls to 000 are not valid 000 calls, and that these waste a lot of time. In the past, out of frustration in their attempts to contact the police, people have called 000 when they did not need to. This initiative has the potential to save lives because it means that valid calls to 000 will not be delayed by that seven per cent of calls that are unnecessary. Mrs C.A. MARTIN: I refer to new works on page 600 of the Budget Statements and ask the minister to provide more details of the government’s commitment to build a new $8.36 million police station at South Hedland. Why are those renovations needed, what progress has been made on the project, and when is its completion anticipated? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: As members will be aware, facilities at the existing South Hedland Police Station, which was constructed in 1974, are very overcrowded. They lack up-to-date facilities that are appropriate for police operations. Planning for the alterations and additions commences this year, with completion planned late 2007. Essentially, we want to be able to provide a safer and more appropriate environment for staff, offenders and the public attending the station, and to provide better policing services for the local community. It will meet contemporary policing standards in its office accommodation, interview rooms, custodial facilities and staff amenities. It will also service the adjoining courthouse. As I think the member for Girrawheen indicated, the cost of the new station is $8.36 million, with $0.3 million planned to be expended this year. This again highlights the government’s budget surplus and that it is now [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E113 able to make some significant and long-overdue commitments to upgrade our police stations, particularly in country areas. The appropriation was recommended. [12.20 pm] Division 38: Fire and Emergency Services Authority of Western Australia, $38 298 000 - Mr J.R. Quigley, Chairman. Mrs M.H. Roberts, Minister for Police and Emergency Services. Mr R.J. Mitchell, Chief Executive Officer. Mr B. Hamilton, Executive Director, Community Safety. Mr P. Cann, Acting Director, Fire Services, Country. Mr F. Pasquale, Acting Executive Director, Business Services. Ms K. Roberts, Manager, Policy and Strategic Planning. Dr S.C. THOMAS: I refer to page 607 and the line titled “grand total” under the appropriation and forward estimates. The budget for 2004-05 was $23 413. However, the estimated actual is $28 469. Can the minister indicate why that budget has blown out? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: Is the member talking about the increase from $23 million to $28 million? Dr S.C. THOMAS: Yes. Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: It comprises additional funding for the Western Australian Helitac of $1.78 million; additional funding for the volunteer marine rescue service of $600 000; funding for seven community emergency officers for a period of six months at a cost of $450 000; training for 10 firefighters for the Eglinton transitional arrangements at a cost of $210 000; grants for volunteers in Wanneroo and Mt Helena totalling $310 000; additional funding for the Manjimup co-location at $120 000; and parameter adjustments of $654 000, which includes a $644 000 capital user charge provision increase. That is in terms of the recurrent expenditure. In terms of capital, there was an increase of $932 000 from $450 000 to $1.382 million. That was for the shared land information platform at a cost of $332 000, and there was also an appliance for the Eglinton day shift brigade at a cost of $600 000. Dr S.C. THOMAS: Are any of those additional costs expected to move over to the next financial year? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: Yes. As it stands at this time, the additional funding for the Helitac will be ongoing, and so too will the funding for the VRMS. All bar the seven community emergency officers for that period of six months will be ongoing. That is in terms of the recurrent expenditure, not the capital. Ms M.M. QUIRK: The fifth dot point under major achievements for 2004-05 on page 610 refers to the review of the role and responsibilities of the Fire and Emergency Services Authority in relation to fire in building plans assessment, building inspections, land use planning and subdivisions. At what stage is that review, and what were its key recommendations? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: The recommendations fall into a number of areas, including progressing changes to building regulations and procedures; ensuring a congruence between the Building Code of Australia specifications, local government needs and FESA’s operational safety requirements; and redesigning business processes and job design to enhance existing processes and practices to capitalise on technology, including recruitment, training and development of a customised training program. The recommendations also include strategic information management issues that have whole-of-agency applications; for example, information technology governance, and the integration of branch systems with existing land agency information systems. Mr T.K. WALDRON: The last dot point under major initiatives for 2005-06 on page 610 refers to the completion of the statewide bushfire threat analysis and the improving of bushfire investigation methods. How is that threat analysis progressing, and when does the minister contemplate that it will be completed? I also want to ask a more specific question that the minister’s advisers may be able to answer. The result of the inquiry into the Kukerin bushfire that occurred last year was that the cause of the fire is unknown. When the result of an inquiry is that the cause of the fire is unknown, is the investigation pursued any further to try to find the cause? Mr B. Hamilton: The bushfire threat analysis is ongoing. An amount of work still needs to be done before that can be completed. Hopefully it will be completed within the next six months. Mr T.K. WALDRON: With regard to my second question, the local government authority has raised with me the problem that the finding of that inquiry was no finding at all. Is that matter still being pursued, or is a case of that is the finding and so be it? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: As I understand it, when the cause is unknown, generally nothing further occurs. The only circumstance under which something else would occur now would be if some further information came forward. We

E114 [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] would then have another look at the situation to see whether we could determine a cause. Short of some new information coming forward, in the normal course of events that investigation would not be reopened. Mr S.R. HILL: I refer to pages 613 and 614 of the Budget Statements. What is FESA doing about emergency services resourcing across regional Western Australia? [12.30 pm] Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: I thank the member for the question. Obviously FESA has an incredibly strong presence in regional Western Australia. Regional Western Australia has certainly been one of the big beneficiaries of the new emergency services levy that we have put in place. I now give a snapshot of the situation. In the goldfields and Esperance, an allocation is made for the construction of a FESA volunteer facility in Esperance at a cost of $400 000. This work is scheduled to commence in 2005-06. This facility will enable the co-location of the fire and rescue and state emergency services. I recently opened - it is now operational - the fire and rescue station in Kalgoorlie that had a total cost of $1.85 million, and the community volunteer fire and rescue station at Kalgoorlie, with an estimated cost of $675 000, is currently under construction; I hope it will be completed this year and be operational in early 2005-06. Turning to Geraldton, Kimberley and the Pilbara, detailed planning is under way for a volunteer fire and rescue station at Broome with an estimated cost of $450 000; the government expects to have that facility operational in 2005-06. The Broome SES regional headquarters is proposed at a cost of $1 million, but is subject to land acquisition and native title deliberations. The development and construction of a volunteer facility in Derby has an estimated cost of $500 000, and is expected to be operational by 2005-06. That facility will enable the co-location of volunteer fire and rescue and state emergency services. In the mid-west, a new FESA regional office facility at Geraldton is under construction; that is the one the member was waiting for. Mr S.R. HILL: That is right. Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: An allocation of $525 000 was made for the Geraldton facility, which is expected to be completed and operational in 2005-06. However, due to the change in its scope and the new site and services involved, its cost may be greater than that originally anticipated. The facility will enable the co-location of the fire and rescue service and SES regional management groups. In the great southern, a volunteer fire and rescue facility will be provided for the Albany fire station for a cost of about $610 000. This development involves the refurbishment of the existing fire station, and the work is about 70 per cent complete and the station should be operational in 2005-06. The FESA volunteer facility co-location at Collie, with a cost of $550 000, is now operational, I understand. A FESA volunteer facility co-location will also occur in Manjimup at a cost of $520 000, and this development is proposed to be operational in 2005-06. The FESA regional office in Albany was completed in 2004-05 at a cost of $650 000, and I was delighted to open that facility in January. I turn now to Peel and the south west. A FESA regional office is being constructed in Bunbury at a cost of $550 000, and it is expected to be operational by 2005-06 - a co-location of services is involved. However, again, as a result of the requirements of the additional services to be provided at the existing site and escalations in building industry costs, it is envisaged that the costs may need to be revised for the Bunbury facility. Members can see that FESA has a pretty exciting program of work under way for regional Western Australia. Dr S.C.THOMAS: I am sorry minister, but I will jump around a little here given the shortness of time remaining. I refer the minister to the key efficiency indicator and the “prevention services” item on page 609 of the Budget Statements. A consistent decline has occurred in prevention services, and presumably this results from increased costs. Can the minister comment on that decline, and, also, the point at which the minister sees the decline being arrested? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: It is not a decline. Dr S.C. THOMAS: It is a gradual decline, but still a decline. Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: I am not sure why the member is calling it a decline. He needs to look at all the figures on that page. The “prevention services” line had an estimate in 2004-05 of 22.6 programs, and the target in 2005-06 is 21 programs. The column below that item is headed “total prevention expenditure”, and lists some allocation increases. The budget for 2004-05 is $15.969 million, and the estimated expenditure for 2004-05 was $16.790 million. Our target for next year is $17.288 million. The member can see an increase in expenditure. Essentially, FESA’s focus has changed over the years with more community-centred management, and that shift has greatly enhanced prevention services. Community awareness of natural and human hazards has increased, and the community has become more involved in minimising the impact of hazards. Over the long term, expenditure on prevention services has increased to reflect the change as programs have been developed and customised to meet the needs of Western Australia generally and of specific communities. The calculation for the key efficiency indicator includes the number of community prevention awareness campaigns delivered, and the nominal contact hours of participants undertaking emergency management services and training hours. The number of programs and contact hours do not remain static; they rise and [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E115 fall in response to the needs of the community. The cost of each program varies widely depending on its nature, location and audience and other delivery factors. Dr S.C.THOMAS: I reiterate the same point. Correct me if I am reading the budget incorrectly, minister, but the top figure in the key efficiency indicators on page 609 of the Budget Statements indicates the level of activity. The figures below indicate the total prevention expenditure and the average expenditures indicated in dollar amounts. Those certainly have risen. However, the top activity is an activity figure, not a financial figure. That indicates that these programs are becoming more expensive; therefore, there was a drop from 23 to 21 programs, or nearly a 10 per cent drop in the number of programs delivered. At which point do we say we cannot afford to drop the level of activity any further and that we must ensure that the budget is sufficient to arrest that decline? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: I reject any assertion that the level of activity has declined. It has not. Some efficiencies might be involved. We might have had a program for cyclones and another program for wet seasons that were amalgamated to deliver more efficiency. It is not correct to assert in any way that the emphasis on prevention has declined. If anything, it has increased. These figures may indicate that FESA is just being smarter in the way it utilises its money - it is being more cost-effective. I also note that FESA is highly dependent on volunteers. Therefore, volunteer efforts have a colossal impact on the prevention services FESA can deliver. All our volunteers, be they State Emergency Service, fire and rescue or bushfire brigades, engage in prevention activities. Mrs C.A. MARTIN: The first dot point on page 612 of the Budget Statements reads - Equity in the allocation of resources through ESL grants, for emergency services volunteers, has improved as a result of strategic decisions made according to need rather than ability to pay. Can the minister elaborate on that program? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: I thank the member for Kimberley. In much of the state, our bushfire brigade volunteer units are the only emergency service available. The level of financial support they received over the years has been dependent upon the individual local government authority involved. Under previous arrangements, funding for protective clothing, equipment and other capital purchases were provided through a grants scheme by which local government had to contribute 50 per cent and the state contributed the other 50 per cent. Since the government introduced the emergency services levy, the state has contributed 100 per cent of the money for that purpose. Some communities that could not afford to front up with the 50 per cent contribution in the past missed out on the grant. The current system is much more equitable because the needs of local areas have been given greater consideration. Some local governments were not supporting volunteer services because they either did not want to or could not afford to do so; therefore, the onus went on the brigades to fund their own protective equipment and the like. Such equipment is now funded by the ESL, and this has freed volunteers from the countless hours of fundraising activities to fund this equipment. This program has also enabled FESA to roll out more training. The protection provided is very welcome by communities. [12.40 pm] Mrs C.A. MARTIN: In Kununurra recently the minister opened the volunteer fire - Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: The Packsaddle Fire Station. Mrs C.A. MARTIN: Yes. Was that a result of this program? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: Absolutely. It was not fully funded by the Fire and Emergency Services Authority because the community put in a phenomenal effort. A substantial part of the expenditure was funded from the emergency service levy. I do not know what value we put on the in-kind service that was provided by the volunteers. However, it probably amounts to many thousands of dollars. The volunteers were also fortunate in that some of the businesses in the vicinity made a contribution. Some of the construction was carried out at a very good rate. It is great when communities like that come together and work together. It was almost like opening the Taj Mahal. To many people in the metropolitan area it would be considered nothing more than a shed. Clearly, however, it is a fabulous facility and great resource for the community. Mr T.K. WALDRON: I mentioned the Kukerin fire in a previous question. I make the point that FESA management in Albany did a fantastic job with the Kukerin community. That shows how FESA, communities, local government and the police can work together in a crisis. The local community was very pleased with the way FESA handled that fire. Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: I thank the member for making that point. Mr T.K. WALDRON: I refer the minister to the fifth dot point of the major initiatives on page 612 of the Budget Statements. It deals with the establishment of the Western Australian emergency radio network. When will that network be fully operational? Will it enable all areas to communicate, particularly in country bushfire situations, because there have been problems in the past? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: Again, this is one of the budget initiatives that I am absolutely delighted with. There has been a need in this area for many years. Fires such as the Kukerin fire highlight the importance of communications. This is a

E116 [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] three-year program. Although the current FESA radio network allows fire services, local government and the Department of Conservation and Land Management to communicate, it lacks the ability to allow communication with other emergency service organisations, such as the Police Service and St John Ambulance, and other government agencies, such as the Department of Fisheries, which are sometimes involved. That lack of radio interoperability has been identified in a number of post-emergency reviews. The government, its agencies and FESA have made do in the past. However, this is a great opportunity for us to put in place a proper radio network so that we can communicate across the board. It will also mean, as far as I am aware, that we will be able to communicate across the border with communities in South Australia and the Northern Territory. It will cost $20 million over the next three years. It is probably the most significant initiative in this budget for FESA. Mr T.K. WALDRON: FESA representatives made it clear the other day that that does not include local voluntary bushfire brigades and farmers. Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: From FESA’s point of view, it includes career and volunteer personnel. That does not mean that we will give something to every farmer who is part of a local brigade. Mr T.K. WALDRON: Can they access it? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: Yes. Ms M.M. QUIRK: I refer the minister to the Western Australian emergency radio network under major policy decisions on page 608 of the Budget Statements. This is obviously a significant capital investment for FESA. Will the minister outline what is involved in this project and the basis on which the decision to embark on this project was made? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: As I said to the member for Wagin, of all the projects this one will have the most significant long-term benefit. One of the major beneficiaries of this project will be local governments. Local government bushfire brigades will be incorporated, and, for the first time, the appropriate level of interoperability between all our emergency services will be achieved. This issue has been identified following a number of significant emergencies. It has been identified in coronial reports and other debriefs after major incidents. In many instances we have managed with good fortune. However, it is an area in which I feel we are vulnerable. Although we could have waited and come to an arrangement with local governments - it crossed our minds for a short period that local governments should potentially pay a significant part of this because of their commitment to bushfire brigades - all in all we thought it was important to have that complete interoperability. As such, the government has bitten the bullet, so to speak, and is meeting the full cost of $20 million. Over time, this project will have the potential to save lives and reduce serious injury because inevitably there will be another fire, flood or cyclone. Mr M.J. COWPER: I refer the minister to the third dot point under significant issues and trends on page 607 of the Budget Statements. Has there been a change in state emergency management policy 7, which relates to who is responsible for combat authorities, in light of the response to the burst water main in South Perth a few weeks ago during which the minister stated that the lead combat authority was the Police Service? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: No, there has been no change. Mr M.J. COWPER: Why did the minister refer to the police as the lead combat authority during that circumstance? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: Because it was. Mr M.J. COWPER: Burst water mains are the responsibility of the Water Corporation. The police have a support role. Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: The member can be pedantic if he likes. The Police Service was the lead agency because of the issues that arose as a result of the burst water main. Given that it was Friday afternoon, the major issue was moving the tens of thousands of vehicles that were trying to get out of the city. Essentially it was an emergency situation of sorts and the police take on that role in such circumstances. Dr S.C. THOMAS: I refer the minister to the tenth dot point under major achievements on page 610 of the Budget Statements. What level of the local emergency plans is being developed by local government? What is the level of compliance for this initiative? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: I defer to Mr Mitchell. Mr R.J. Mitchell: A range of emergency management planning occurs. I think the member is referring to local emergency management plans and the responsibility of the local emergency management committees. Across Western Australia they are well supported by police, FESA and local governments. Local emergency management plans are well implemented and reviewed in most local government areas. [12.50 pm] Dr S.C. THOMAS: Can the minister give any indication of what the government’s financial contribution to a local government scheme might be? How much would come out of the state budget? [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E117

Mr R.J. Mitchell: Through the Fire and Emergency Services Authority and the Police Service, there is significant contribution at the local level into emergency planning. The member also would have seen in the budget that seven emergency services officers are to be appointed for a six-month period specifically to focus on bushfire planning at the local level across the state. That is about to be implemented and will run for the next six months, in readiness for the next fire season. It is a one-off investment, which we believe is very important to bring local emergency planning for bushfires up to speed. Dr S.C. THOMAS: On the same issue, the City of Bunbury employed a local emergency coordinator for six months. I believe the position was funded by a combination of local, state and federal government money. Will the state budget continue to contribute to that position? Is there any need to, or will it have a budgetary impact? Mr R.J. Mitchell: There is a program in Western Australia called the aware program, which provides a range of funding options for different people across the state. In this case, local government received a grant for that to occur over a six-month period. Any extension to that would require a new application. Mr M.J. COWPER: I refer to the third dot point on page 607. In terms of proactive coordination with police in investigating activities of known arsonists, is an appropriation provided for in the budget that allows for a cross-flow of information between FESA and the arson squad of the Police Service? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: Within FESA there is a fire investigation unit that works virtually continuously with the arson squad. There is constant liaison between the arson squad and the fire investigation unit. Mr M.J. COWPER: Has that been perpetuated in the budget? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: It is ongoing. It is part and parcel of the way FESA and the Police Service have done business for a number of years, and I expect it will continue into the future. It is all fully budgeted for. Dr S.C. THOMAS: I refer the minister to the third dot point under major achievements for 2004-05 on page 610, which deals with the legislation that was introduced into Parliament. At what point is that legislation now? Has that legislation been referred to any committee, and, if so, what was the committee’s response? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: The Emergency Management Bill 2004 was considered by a committee of the last Parliament. In fact, that committee did a draft of the bill and wrote a very good report on it. The government basically took on board that draft and the report of the committee, and they formed the basis of what I introduced into Parliament in October 2004. Since then, however, some further information has come to light about terrorism issues, and there appears to be some sense in looking at those issues in connection with this legislation. We have been working on that, and I expect to have a draft bill back to cabinet in the course of the next month or so, and to be able to introduce a similar bill into Parliament within the next couple of months. If it is not before the winter recess, it will be very soon thereafter. Dr S.C. THOMAS: There is no plan to send it to another committee, then? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: No; essentially, most of the work has been done. The committee did a very competent job of reviewing the issue. It conducted a lot of consultation throughout Western Australia. I was very impressed by the committee’s work. At this stage I do not see any benefit in referring the bill back to a committee. I think we are reaching the pointy end, so to speak, and it needs to be introduced into the Parliament in the near future. Ms M.M. QUIRK: I refer the minister to the last dot point under major achievements for 2004-05, which relates to raising community awareness of hazards and their prevention, in particular the need for smoke alarms. In my electorate about a fortnight ago, a house that was the property of the Department of Housing and Works was burnt down. Is there any consultation or liaison with the Department of Housing and Works about smoke alarm upgrades and efficiency? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: There has been a great amount of liaison with the Department of Housing and Works, and the department has prioritised safety features in new houses as they come on stream. I understand it has also carried out a works program in public housing to ensure that high standards of fire prevention are met. In my view, all homes should have a hard-wired smoke alarm where possible. The battery-operated ones are cheap and effective, but they are only as effective as when the battery was last replaced. That is why we have a smoke alarm day on 1 April each year to give people a timely reminder that it is no good just having a smoke alarm in place; people need to check, if it is a battery- operated alarm, that the battery is effective. Dr S.C. THOMAS: I refer the minister to plant and equipment works shown on page 614, under both completed works and new works. Given that there are no further commitments for breathing apparatus and protective suits, is it now the position that all the services are fully provided with this equipment, or will it come from a different budget? Mrs M.H. ROBERTS: What the member can see on this page is that those protective suits have now been fully provided, so that the expenditure for purchasing those suits is outlined and there is no figure in the final column. That equipment will now be funded only on a replacement basis, and that replacement cost is provided for as part of this budget. The program for equipping our officers with breathing apparatus and protective suits will be completed at the end of the current financial year, and only replacement will occur from here on in. That is funded. The appropriation was recommended.

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Meeting suspended from 1.00 to 2.00 pm Division 24: Commissioner for Equal Opportunity, $2 732 000 - Mr A.P. O’Gorman, Chairman. Mr J.A. McGinty, Attorney General. Ms Y. Henderson, Commissioner for Equal Opportunity. The CHAIRMAN: This estimates committee will be reported by Hansard staff. The daily proof Hansard will be published at 9.00 am tomorrow. The estimates committee’s consideration of the estimates will be restricted to discussion of those items for which a vote of money is proposed in the consolidated fund. This is the prime focus of the committee. While there is scope for members to examine many matters, questions need to be clearly related to a page number, item, program or amount within the volumes. For example, members are free to pursue performance indicators that are included in the budget statements while there remains a clear link between the questions and the estimates. It is the intention of the Chairman to ensure that as many questions as possible are asked and answered and that both questions and answers are short and to the point. The minister may agree to provide supplementary information to the committee, rather than asking that the question be put on notice for the next sitting week. For the purpose of following up the provision of this information, I ask the minister to clearly indicate to the committee which supplementary information he agrees to provide and I will then allocate a reference number. If supplementary information is to be provided, I seek the minister’s cooperation in ensuring that it is delivered to the committee clerk by 17 June 2005, so that members may read it before the report and third reading stages. If the supplementary information cannot be provided within that time, written advice is required of the day by which the information will be made available. Details in relation to supplementary information have been provided to both members and advisers and accordingly I ask the minister to cooperate with those requirements. I caution members that if a minister asks that a matter be put on notice, it is up to the member to lodge the question on notice with the clerk’s office. Only supplementary information that the minister agrees to provide will be sought by 17 June 2005. Ms S.E. WALKER: I seek some clarification of the budget papers. I note that we are dealing with particular divisions, but elsewhere in the budget papers are matters that refer to the Attorney General, such as items on the judiciary and judicial support services. However, we will not be able to ask the Attorney General questions on those parts. Why is that? Is the Attorney General reticent to answer questions on those sorts of things? Mr J.A. McGINTY: No, but the member is quite correct; an error was made in putting together the basis for the estimates committees. A reasonable proportion of my portfolio responsibility, particularly that dealing with the courts, has been set aside for consideration by the Minister for Justice in his session this evening. I do not know why that occurred. It was drawn to my attention only this morning. We raised the matter with the Clerk of the Legislative Assembly, Peter McHugh, who said that it could not be changed. Ms S.E. WALKER: It is quite a significant part, and it impacts a lot. How can we rectify that? Mr J.A. McGINTY: I do not know. Ms S.E. WALKER: We will not be able to question the Attorney General on serious issues, such as the implementation of the Magistrates Court package and how the judiciary is being supported, for instance in the Children’s Court and the new Court of Appeal. The Chief Justice is not here; will someone else be provided? The CHAIRMAN: Members, the advisers will be available to the Minister for Justice when he sits this evening. Those questions can be appropriately asked at that time. I ask that we turn our attention to division 24, on the Commissioner for Equal Opportunity. Ms S.E. WALKER: I refer to the fourth dot point of the major achievements on page 401, which states - Contributed to the drafting of the Government’s Consultation Paper on Racial and Religious Vilification, released in August 2004, . . . I will again ask the Attorney General a question that I asked when that paper was released, as he now has the commissioner sitting beside him: why was the whole history of Jack van Tongeren omitted from the history of racism in that consultation paper? Mr J.A. McGINTY: The discussion paper raised in-principle issues. In my view, it would not have been appropriate to provide as part of that discussion paper a detailed analysis of all aspects of the offending and behaviour of Jack van Tongeren over several decades in Western Australia. The paper raised a host of issues and sought public input for the purpose of discussing potential legislative reform of racial and religious vilification matters. Jack van Tongeren has been a significant contributor to that debate because of his actions, his criminality and the charges that he is currently [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E119 facing. However, I do not know that a full recitation of all aspects of his history would have added a great deal to the paper. Ms S.E. WALKER: The point is that the paper will now be part of the legal history of our state. The whole point of the paper was Jack van Tongeren. The reason the commissioner left out his whole history from the paper has not been addressed. I do not know whether it was due to incompetence. I am not talking about the charges that he faced at the time, but the ones on which he had been found guilty and which are a part of the history of this state and have been related in newspapers and different documents from time to time. Mr J.A. McGINTY: The discussion paper dealt with religious and racial vilification in both a criminal and civil context. Legislation was passed by the Parliament last year that further criminalised behaviour of a racial nature. It was clear from the advice we received from the police that, up to that point, the police had not relied on the racial vilification provisions of the Criminal Code to found prosecutions because of the various intents that needed to be proven. It is far easier to proceed under other provisions of the code. Consequently, we moved to change the law in that regard and received significant input from the Director of Public Prosecutions on the content that should be included. The other aspects of the discussion paper were religious vilification and the possibility of civil penalties applying to racial and religious vilification. The civil approach is proceeding as a result of the discussion paper. To give a short answer to the member’s question, the discussion paper was put out with a view to provoking discussion about each of those various issues. It was not thought necessary to include in that paper a full blow-by-blow description of the history of Jack van Tongeren to properly raise the various issues. The member obviously disagrees with that. Ms S.E. WALKER: I am sure that most people would. I just wonder whether any inquiries have been made. The CHAIRMAN: Members, I ask you to ask questions rather than make statements. Mr P.B. WATSON: I refer to the second dot point on page 397, which states - The Report ‘Finding a Place: An Enquiry into the Existence of Discriminatory Practices in Relation to the Provision of Public Housing to Aboriginal people in Western Australia’ was completed and launched. A committee has been established to plan and oversee the implementation of the recommendations of the report. What progress has been made on that? [2.10 pm] Mr J.A. McGINTY: I will ask the Commissioner for Equal Opportunity to respond to that question. Ms Y. Henderson: A committee has been established and it has on it representatives of some government departments, such as Indigenous Affairs and Community Development. It has on it representatives of indigenous organisations and representatives of community groups, particularly from regional areas, who were active in bringing people together for purposes of making submissions to the inquiry. For example, representatives from Katanning, Roebourne and Kalgoorlie are on this committee. These people were particularly active during the process of the inquiry. Mr T.K. WALDRON: On page 397, under significant issues and trends, the third dot point states - The Commissioner’s Legal Officers have continued to adopt a proactive approach to resolving complaints in the State Administrative Tribunal by mediation and negotiation . . . I have received complaints locally. Is the Attorney General satisfied that, when there is a complainant and respondent, both of them are given equal opportunity? Mr J.A. McGINTY: Perhaps I will get the commissioner to respond to that question. Mr T.K. WALDRON: If the Attorney General would like me to make it clearer, I can try. Mr J.A. McGINTY: The issue is clear. Ms Y. Henderson: In responding to that, we need to make a distinction between the commission and the tribunal. At the stage of the commission, which is essentially a conciliatory process - Mr T.K. WALDRON: That is what I was referring to. Ms Y. Henderson: That is fine. At that stage, the commission’s officers act in an impartial manner. When the complaint comes in, it is on-forwarded to the respondent. Any comments that the respondent makes are then forwarded back to the complainant for his information and, as soon as possible, a conference is convened between them. The conciliation officer acts as an impartial conciliator in that process. If the matter is not resolved within the commission, as members probably know, it moves on to the tribunal stage and that is more like a court. At that point, the commission’s legal officers, in accordance with the act, act on behalf of the complainant, so their role is different. While the complaint is within the confines of the commission, the commission acts in an impartial manner. We conduct surveys of complainants and respondents and, on the issue of impartiality, the satisfaction figure is usually extremely high. Some other figures are not as high as that, but generally on that issue there seems to be a level of contentedness on both sides that conciliation officers have acted in an impartial manner.

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Mr T.K. WALDRON: I would like to seek further clarification. In the case of conciliation, sometimes the two parties can reach a settlement. Does the Equal Opportunity Commission get advice on that settlement, or is it expressly between the two parties? Does the commission have a role if there is a settlement and the case does not go before the tribunal? Ms Y. Henderson: The settlement usually occurs during the conference at which the conciliation officer is present. He or she normally chairs the conference. The respondent is aware of what sort of outcomes the complainant seeks before he goes into the conference, so he knows what the person is looking for. It may range from an apology to payment of back wages to agreement to undertake some training by the respondent or whatever. It could be a range of different things. When an agreement is reached between the parties, it is then put into a document and it is usually signed and completed on the day. Mr M.J. COWPER: I refer to the delivery of services on page 397. What is the reason for the cost overrun? Mr J.A. McGINTY: I thank the member for that question. Cabinet approved the transfer of the substantive equality unit from the Department of the Premier and Cabinet to the Equal Opportunity Commission from 1 January 2005. The substantive equality unit provides training for the public sector on substantive equality and oversees support to facilitate implementation of the policy framework through a whole-of-government approach by working in partnership with each participating public sector department or agency. It was caused by the transfer of the substantive equality unit from the Premier’s office for half of the current financial year. As I understand it, with that came the budgetary allocation from the Premier’s office as well. It was the transfer of a function internally between the Premier’s department and the Equal Opportunity Commission. Mr M.J. COWPER: I have a further question. In essence, when it transferred across, was the budget allocation included in the initial budget allocation? Mr J.A. McGINTY: The initial budget allocation was made at this time last year, in 2004, and during the course of the financial year the function was transferred. At that time the money also would have been transferred but would not have shown up in any of the budget papers that were printed some six months earlier. The commissioner will correct me if I am wrong, but the Commissioner of Equal Opportunity has run according to budget with this function being transferred in, and with that there has been a balanced budget for the Equal Opportunity Commission. Ms S.E. WALKER: I refer to the third dot point of significant issues and trends on page 397, which states - The Commissioner’s Legal Officers have continued to adopt a proactive approach to resolving complaints in the State Administrative Tribunal by mediation and negotiation, rather than by litigation. Will the Attorney General explain how that is set up? Mr J.A. McGINTY: There is a minor conflict between the Equal Opportunity Commission and the State Solicitor’s Office about the approach that should be taken on equal opportunity matters when they come before the State Administrative Tribunal. I guess the distinction, if I can be blunt, comes down to the commissioner wanting a more outcomes-based approach, designed to achieve quality outcomes. The State Solicitor’s Office sometimes takes a legalistic approach, raising issues such as jurisdiction and things of that nature. These are matters that have been raised by the commissioner in discussion with the State Solicitor’s Office, and what has been sought to be achieved is some sort of better understanding between the Commissioner for Equal Opportunity and the State Solicitor’s Office. They need to adopt an approach for when matters go before the State Administrative Tribunal. I can give one example that was raised with me. It was a question of a schoolteacher who wanted adoption leave. At the time the teacher wanted that leave, adoption leave was not an award entitlement, but it was thought to be fair for the teacher to pursue it through the tribunal. Adoption leave is now a substantive entitlement in the teachers’ EBA. The jurisdictional approach that was adopted by the State Solicitor’s Office was thought by the commissioner at the time to be inappropriate, given the broader range of considerations that were at play. I think that is what this particular issue is referring to; that the commissioner’s approach to matters before the State Administrative Tribunal is that she is still trying to achieve a mediated or negotiated outcome, whereas often the State Solicitor’s Office, representing particular government departments, is seeking to adopt a more legalistic approach. That is a conflict in the system on which we are trying to get some understanding. Ms S.E. WALKER: I am tempted to ask who is winning. Mr J.A. McGINTY: I do not think anyone is at the moment. Ms S.E. WALKER: Are sexual harassment matters dealt with by the commission? Mr J.A. McGINTY: Yes. Ms S.E. WALKER: Is there a suggestion by this new trend that a sexual harassment matter might be mediated or negotiated rather than, say, a criminal offence charge being laid? Mr J.A. McGINTY: I will get the commissioner to respond. [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E121

[2.20 pm] Ms Y. Henderson: In a sexual harassment matter, the commissioner would never seek to dissuade any person who wishes to approach the police from pursuing criminal charges if that is appropriate. People may pursue matters in several jurisdictions, and they are entitled to do that. If they bring the matter before the commission, it is entirely the call of the person making the complaint as to how that person wants to resolve it. Some people pursuing complaints of sexual harassment actually find that through negotiation their harasser agrees to undertake a course of training, make an apology or pay some compensation or whatever. For those people, that outcome might be preferable to the matter proceeding to a full hearing, which is an adversarial trial-like setting in which the complainant has to again recite all the intimate details of everything that happened and for which the outcome might be very similar to what could have been achieved in the conciliation. It is often the call of complainants that they would rather settle, and they might look to other decisions to see what would be an appropriate level of compensation that might be awarded if the matter proceeded within the tribunal. Ms M.M. QUIRK: I refer the Attorney General to page 399, service 1, provision of information and advice regarding equal opportunity and human rights. Has the commission undertaken any work into systemic racism in the past 12 months or so; and, if so, what is the nature of that work? Mr J.A. McGINTY: I will ask the commissioner to answer. Ms Y. Henderson: Yes, the commission has been very actively involved. As the Attorney General pointed out, a substantive equality unit has been established. It was initially located within the Department of the Premier and Cabinet under the Office of Multicultural Interests. It now operates within the Equal Opportunity Commission. It has produced a policy on substantive equality that is intended to apply across the whole of government. It worked with four pilot agencies: the Police Service, the Department of Justice, the Department of the Premier and Cabinet and the Department for Community Development. It has now moved on from that pilot and is assisting all 21 large government departments go through their own policies and practices with a view to ensuring that the service they provide to their clients is appropriate to the racial and cultural background of the person receiving the service. A great deal of work has been done with those departments on that. Mr T.K. WALDRON: On page 401, the second dot point under major initiatives for 2005-06 refers to a review of the conciliation process, including current policies and procedures etc. Will people who have been through the conciliation process on either side and the general public be involved in that review to give feedback? It states that the review will ensure the services are delivered in a timely and efficient manner. I guess the efficient manner will depend on how it is run. Therefore, will the Attorney General seek input from those people who have been involved in the process? Mr J.A. McGINTY: I will get the commissioner to comment on the extent of public and stakeholder input. Ms Y. Henderson: The commission regularly surveys all the people who lodge complaints and the respondents for their views on the process they go through. We keep a record of all their comments. If a comment is made about individual conciliators, the comment is delivered to the individual conciliation officers. The comments are also compiled and quantified. We take all those things into account. There is quite often tension between parties wanting to get all the information in, wanting to respond to each other’s comments and wanting to have matters resolved as quickly as possible. It is certainly our experience that the earlier we can bring the parties around a table, the more chance there is of resolving a matter before people get set in entrenched positions. This dot point really refers to an ongoing process of trying to streamline our processes to get earlier conferences, because it is our view that that will resolve more matters. Mr T.K. WALDRON: That is good. When people are going through that process they could be quite emotionally involved and upset. Has any thought been given to getting people’s comments once they have cooled down - perhaps three or four years afterwards - and when they can look at it in the clear light of day and are not under pressure? Ms Y. Henderson: We have not done that, no. Once we have closed a file we do not tend to go back. There might be obvious problems three or four years down the track about whether people are still residing at the same address and so on. There is another issue that we take very seriously. When we send details of a complaint to, for example, a proprietor of a business or a company director or whatever, we are extremely careful to ensure that the correspondence is marked confidential. We want to ensure that any reference to that kind of matter does not fall into the wrong hands three or four years down the track when the matter has been settled and people are trying to get on with their lives. We do not want it exposed to some third party that a person had been involved in, for example, a sexual harassment matter or whatever. No; we have not followed these matters up three or four years later. Mr M.J. COWPER: I refer to page 398 and the reasons the line item of adjustments has a budgeted figure of $54 000 and an actual figure of $78 000. Is this linked to the previous question I asked? Mr J.A. McGINTY: No, it is not related to the earlier issue we discussed, which was the substantive equality unit being transferred from the Premier’s office. It is an accounting adjustment. I am not able to give a detailed description of what it is, beyond the note in the papers that the adjustments are related to movements in cash balances and other

E122 [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] accrual items, such as resources received free of charge, receivables, payables and superannuation. I have no idea what that means. The commissioner might be able to add more. Ms Y. Henderson: I could add one small thing. As a small agency, our payroll is done by the Department of Justice. A nominal paper figure is included for services we receive free of charge from the Department of Justice. It arrives at an accounting figure based on the cost to the department of doing our payroll and being responsible for our human resources matters, such as leave processing and all those sorts of things. I think that is what that relates to. Mr P.B. WATSON: The ninth dot point on page 401 refers to the provision of advice about, and the drafting of, civil laws making racial vilification unlawful in a number of areas of public life. Can the Attorney General explain that to me, please? Mr J.A. McGINTY: This goes back to the question that was asked earlier by the member for Nedlands about the discussion papers put out on religious and racial vilification. The response we received about religious vilification was overwhelmingly that the public did not want us to go down the path of looking at religious vilification. The threats to freedom of speech about religious matters and to the established religious organisations in this state would have been greater than any solution provided to other problems. We have been interested in pursuing making racial vilification something that is capable of being dealt with by the Commissioner for Equal Opportunity in a non-criminal context. The criminal law is there to deal with the more extreme cases of racial vilification, but we are looking at whether we ought to bring forward legislation to allow people to complain to the Equal Opportunity Commission about lesser cases of racial vilification and to have that complaint dealt with in a civil context rather than a criminal context. A final decision has not been taken on that matter at this time, but it is something we are looking at. The Commissioner for Equal Opportunity has provided us with advice on that issue. Ms S.E. WALKER: I refer the Attorney General to the new act - the Criminal Code Amendment (Racial Vilification) Act 2004. Have there been any prosecutions under these new provisions? [2.30 pm] Mr J.A. McGINTY: Not to the best of my knowledge. Mr T.K. WALDRON: I refer to the second dot point under major achievements for 2004-05 on page 401, which states - Continued to deliver a flexible and responsive conciliation service to the people of Western Australia including conducting conciliation conferences in regional areas, . . . Is that service conducted on a needs basis or only in major regional towns? I note that it continues “and where appropriate undertaking home visits”. Are conferences held on a needs basis or in towns such as Narrogin etc? I know that they are held in Narrogin. Ms Y. Henderson: This is purely in response to individual complaints. For example, some of our officers made a journey to Collie to conciliate a complaint recently, which was successfully conciliated. Other people from regional areas prefer to come to Perth and do not want matters dealt with in their local towns. We tend to respect the position of the complainant and the respondent and what is most convenient to them, unless it is extremely costly, such as travel to the north west. In that case we would be more inclined to hold a teleconference. Mr T.K. WALDRON: Would the commission consider travelling to destinations such as towns on the eastern fringe of the wheatbelt? For instance, there might be a problem in Newdegate. Ms Y. Henderson: Yes; for example, we have travelled to Katanning. I am sure a journey to Newdegate would not take more than five or so hours, so it would not be a problem. Mr T.K. WALDRON: The commission would get to go through a very nice electorate on its way! Ms Y. Henderson: I am sure. Mr J.A. McGINTY: Not very far to travel either! Mr M.J. COWPER: Please give details of the expenditure under the heading “Other expenses” in the income statement on page 402. I note that those expenses increase in the forward estimates for some reason and then drop significantly in 2008-09. I am perplexed about why that is. Mr J.A. McGINTY: It would include anything that does not fit into the specific expenses above that heading; that is, the cost of employee benefits, superannuation, supplies and services, accommodation, depreciation and so on. One aspect that might be covered by “Other expenses” would be travel to Newdegate if an issue down there needed to be attended to. It does not fit into the specific categories above the heading. It is just an accounting standard to ensure that everything is accounted for. If the member wants more detail on the specific make-up of that - Mr M.J. COWPER: I understand there needs to be an operating budget that accounts for miscellaneous items. However, there is a steady increase from $143 000 to $157 000 and $180 000, but it drops by some $45 000 in the final year to $135 000. [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E123

Mr J.A. McGINTY: Yes. Mr M.J. COWPER: As opposed to the continuity of a rise. Mr J.A. McGINTY: Yes. We are talking here about categorising other expenses at $157 000 in a budget of $2.6 million for the total cost of services. It is simply a catch-all provision rather than continuing the list down the page and itemising everything in great detail. The lesser amounts are all bundled together in accordance with acceptable accounting standards. Mr M.J. COWPER: I understand. Mrs J. HUGHES: On page 400 there is reference to the delivery of an advocacy course for indigenous people and communities. Will the Attorney General indicate to where they were delivered and whether they are to be continued? Ms Y. Henderson: This was a course that was conducted in the goldfields for indigenous advocates called “Tracking your Rights”. It is a well-established program that was developed by the national Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission and delivered in conjunction with the federal agency. Quite a group of indigenous people completed this course and now act as advocates and first port of call for people within that community who want to know about their rights under the Western Australian Equal Opportunity Act and the federal legislation. They then liaise with us and assist people to formulate their complaints if they require assistance. Mrs J. HUGHES: Will the course continue into the next financial year? Ms Y. Henderson: At this stage we do not have plans for any further course because we have not been offered any matching funding from the federal body. Currently, indigenous advocates are welcome to attend our ordinary courses, which we have extended to regional centres this year for the first time, should a need be identified in other areas for this sort of course. However, this course was purely for indigenous advocates. Should HREOC again offer us funding to run such a course, we would be very pleased to do so. Ms S.E. WALKER: If a person has already filed a police complaint for sexual harassment, does that impact on the decision by the commissioner or her department on whether to take on the case? The CHAIRMAN: I ask the member for a page number. Ms S.E. WALKER: I am sorry, it is the third dot point under significant issues and trends on page 397. Mr J.A. McGINTY: The simple answer is no. Each complaint continues to be progressed independently of each other, assuming that a crime is revealed. Ms S.E. WALKER: Does the Attorney General have an analysis of how many have now gone to mediation; and, if not, could I have one? Mr J.A. McGINTY: How many what? Ms S.E. WALKER: Since the Equal Opportunity Commission has taken a proactive approach, how many cases that have come before it have gone to mediation and negotiation rather than to a hearing? Mr J.A. McGINTY: This is specifically sexual - Ms S.E. WALKER: On any case. Mr J.A. McGINTY: All cases? Ms S.E. WALKER: Yes. Ms Y. Henderson: Is the member asking when it is at the stage of reaching the tribunal? I am trying to be clear on the question. Ms S.E. WALKER: The dot point states - The Commissioner’s Legal Officers have continued to adopt a proactive approach to resolving complaints . . . Since that proactive approach has been taken, how many cases have gone to mediation and negotiation rather than litigation? Ms Y. Henderson: I can provide that information through the Attorney General to the member. I would have to get it from the tribunal, as it keeps its statistics independently. This dot point is emphasising that our legal officers, who act under the legislation on behalf of the complainant at that stage, seek and do everything within their power to resolve the matter at a mediation conference rather than go on to a full hearing. The reason we have highlighted this as a dot point, as the Attorney General pointed out, is that some respondents take a very litigious view and will almost stand and say at a directions hearing that they do not want to go to a conference but go straight to a hearing. We are just saying that it is our policy never to do that. We are always prepared to mediate and use our best endeavours to try to resolve matters at the mediation, which is usually scheduled. [2.40 pm] The CHAIRMAN: Is the Attorney General prepared to provide that as supplementary information?

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Mr J.A. McGINTY: Yes. Ms Y. Henderson: We can provide it, but it will have to be provided through the tribunal. The Equal Opportunity Commission does not keep those types of statistics. Once a matter has left the commission, it is in the province of the tribunal. The tribunal does keep those statistics; therefore, we can seek them and provide them to the member. The CHAIRMAN: Is the Attorney General happy to provide that information? Mr J.A. McGINTY: Yes. [Supplementary Information No B2.] Ms S.E. WALKER: Is the Attorney General’s adviser saying that the legal officers at the Equal Opportunity Commission do not have control of individual files until the litigation has finished? Mr J.A. McGINTY: The short answer to the question is that once a matter goes to the tribunal, the file goes to the tribunal and ceases to be under the control of a particular officer in the Equal Opportunity Commission. Ms S.E. WALKER: Does it have nothing further to do with it? Mr J.A. McGINTY: The commission is aware of the outcome and things of that nature, but it does not retain control over the file. Ms S.E. WALKER: Do the local officers not do the legal work in the tribunal? Mr J.A. McGINTY: Yes, they do. Ms S.E. WALKER: Does the legal officer who originally had the file work with that file through to its conclusion, when the case goes before the tribunal? I see the Attorney General’s adviser nodding. Mr J.A. McGINTY: Keep going. Ms S.E. WALKER: Is the adviser nodding? Mr J.A. McGINTY: Was that the question? Ms S.E. WALKER: Yes. It has been suggested that a file goes to the tribunal and that the Equal Opportunity Commission has nothing more to do with it. Is it not a fact that the legal officer sees the file through to its conclusion? Mr J.A. McGINTY: The file is transferred to the tribunal. The legal officer continues to act on behalf of one of the parties to the hearing before the tribunal but the file itself will have left the Equal Opportunity Commission and been sent to the tribunal for determination. Ms S.E. WALKER: What happens to the file at the end? Mr J.A. McGINTY: The commissioner will explain. Ms Y. Henderson: The Equal Opportunity Commission keeps a file that shows the progress of the matter until the end of the conciliation process. If the conciliation process fails, we send the appropriate documentation to the tribunal, which creates a new file. That file records the legal proceedings within the tribunal. The file that remains with the Equal Opportunity Commission shows the matter only up to the end of the commission’s dealing with the conciliatory matter. The legal file is then the property of the tribunal. Obviously the Equal Opportunity Commission does not send anything to the tribunal that relates to the confidential conciliation attempts within the commission, because it is without prejudice. Ms S.E. WALKER: That is my point. From what we were told it seems that files are sent to the tribunal and do not ever return. In fact, the file stays with the commission and another file is prepared. I presume that copies are taken from that file and they are sent to the tribunal. However, does the file at the Equal Opportunity Commission record what happened at the tribunal regarding the legal officer? Ms Y. Henderson: My understanding of the original question was about the outcome in the tribunal - Ms S.E. WALKER: It is important. Ms Y. Henderson: I was trying to explain that we record through our computer databank the outcome of every conciliation determined by the conciliation commission. We do not enter into our computers the outcomes of the tribunal. The tribunal records those outcomes in its own record-keeping system. Obviously each legal officer who represents a complainant in the tribunal has a bundle of papers relating to that matter. However, the complete file of the whole of the proceedings of the tribunal remains at the tribunal. If I wanted to know the percentage of all matters that go to the tribunal that are successfully conciliated before going to a hearing, I would ask the tribunal to extract that figure from its databank. Ms S.E. WALKER: Does the legal officer record on the commission’s file what happened at the tribunal? I am not talking about the committee system. The commission’s legal officer must keep a recording on file of what happened. That must happen. [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E125

Mr J.A. McGINTY: No, that is not recorded on the conciliation file, because that file would have finished. Ms S.E. WALKER: How is it signed off? When the legal officer leaves with the file from the commission, does the legal officer not sign off on it and say what happened to that file or to the person involved? Mr J.A. McGINTY: The recording of outcomes is done by the tribunal, not by the commission. The file effectively finishes at the conciliation stage in the Equal Opportunity Commission because the matter becomes a tribunal proceeding. Ms S.E. WALKER: Therefore, it remains unfinished at the commission? I do not think so. The appropriation was recommended. Division 25: Corruption and Crime Commission, $36 210 000 - Mr A.P. O’Gorman, Chairman. Mr J.A. McGinty, Attorney General. Mr M.J.W. Silverstone, Executive Director. Mr A. Abraham, Manager, Finance and Administration. Ms V. Grant, Director, Business Services. Ms S.E. WALKER: I refer the Attorney General to the sixth dot point under significant issues and trends on page 406 of the Budget Statements, which states - The Commission will develop its capacity to oversight the adoption of its recommendations for systemic change across the public sector in order to evaluate the effectiveness of its advice in seeking to continuously improve the integrity of the public sector. What does that mean? Mr J.A. McGINTY: That is a very good question. Mr Silverstone will explain what it means. Mr M.J.W. Silverstone: One of the commission’s concerns is that as it forms opinions and makes assessments and recommendations, it track the take-up of those recommendations by various agencies. One of the tasks the commission set itself was to establish a process for doing that. When the corruption prevention, education and research directorate was established, it was proposed that funding be allocated to hire consultants to examine the take-up of the Kennedy royal commission’s recommendations as part of the Western Australia Police Service reform process. After we looked at that and decided how to do that, we formed the view that instead of spending money on consultants, we would engage two staff members for a three-year period. The primary function of those staff would be to oversight the take-up of the reform within the Western Australia Police Service, with the view that they could also look at the take-up of recommendations from our other reports. [2.50 pm] Ms M.M. QUIRK: Under the significant issues and trends on page 406, I refer the Attorney General to the first bullet point concerning the Corruption and Crime Commission Act 2003. The act has now been in operation for a little over a year. Are any legislative changes to that act regarded as necessary? Mr M.J.W. Silverstone: We are currently establishing a project to look at that more thoroughly. There have been some issues about regulations that we have considered at this time, but I do not have them to hand at present. As we have gone about the business of the commission, we have become aware of areas within the act that are scheduled for review for the purposes of the act in January 2007. We undertook to the previous joint standing committee to provide an outline of those changes in the forthcoming December period. We are also starting to put together a project to look at the act with a view to assisting with the review of the act that is due in January 2007. Ms M.M. QUIRK: Can we perhaps have a bit more detail of some of the undetected anomalies? I know that certain matters require reporting within a certain time, but do any amendments require urgent remedy? Mr J.A. McGINTY: I think implicit in what Mr Silverstone said is that nothing is crippling the operation of the CCC on a day-to-day basis. Although a number of changes were made to the CCC legislation, particularly in the upper house, that we thought at the time were cumbersome, it is reasonably clear that nothing has come to light in recent times that is of such urgency that we would want to rush it straight into the Parliament to make the necessary changes. Perhaps on a marginally broader front, we will do one thing. Each of the new bodies that has been established within the legal system - the Court of Appeal, the State Administrative Tribunal, the Magistrates Court, to which there have been fairly massive reforms, and the Corruption and Crime Commission - has new legislation. We want to get feedback, possibly during the course of this year, about what changes are necessary to enhance the operation of these new bodies, given that their legislation was new. I had tentatively indicated to some of the bodies, particularly the Court of Appeal and the State Administrative Tribunal, that some time towards the end of this year, when they had been up and running for a while, we would be keen on bringing in refining legislation to deal with any minor amendments or

E126 [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] operational glitches, if I can put it that way, to make sure that those bodies operate with greater efficiency. I think implicit in what Mr Silverstone has said is that nothing is so pressing that it would require urgent legislation to remedy serious defects in the way in which the Corruption and Crime Commission is operating today. Ms M.M. QUIRK: I have one final question. The Attorney General talked about an amendment to the substantive act. Implicit in Mr Silverstone’s answer was that there might be a requirement to amend the regulations a bit sooner. Mr J.A. McGINTY: Of course, regulations can be dealt with relatively simply. It is a far more difficult and time- consuming process to deal with legislation. It is a matter about which we intended to engage in dialogue with the CCC during the course of this year. We needed to attend to some operational matters with a degree of urgency to make sure that things were running smoothly, but that was always in the context of the existing legislation. We have dealt with administrative matters, such as the appointment of acting commissioners and things of that nature, which were thought necessary because of the way in which the operations of the CCC unfolded, with a sense of urgency. However, in relation to the legislative changes, nothing that necessitates urgent amendment has been drawn to my attention so far. There have been some general discussions about refining amendments, and that will come later in this term. Mr T.K. WALDRON: I refer to the third dot point of major initiatives on page 411, which states - Prepare and present a major education program on corruption risk assessment and corruption prevention planning to public authorities. What is the time line for that education initiative? Will the Attorney General indicate which public authorities will be included? Will ministerial offices be included in this education initiative? Mr J.A. McGINTY: Dr Irene Froyland, who will be known to many members - in the past she has been very clearly associated with policing and educating police officers in Western Australia - has been employed by the Corruption and Crime Commission specifically to undertake the educational function. However, I am sure Mr Silverstone can give a more detailed response to the question the member has asked. Mr M.J.W. Silverstone: In the past year we have, as a commission, sought to provide advice and briefings on a range of matters to government departments and agencies concerning the notification responsibilities under the Corruption and Crime Commission Act. This has seen us conduct a particular program that we have titled Risky Business. Thus far, there have been 11 regional and 20 metropolitan sessions, with approximately 1 190 attendees. We intend conducting five more presentations before the end of the year. That initial set of sessions has been conducted with a view to familiarising agencies with their responsibilities under the new act. Our next step with educational programs is to go to the matter about which the member asked, with a view to looking at moving from making people aware of their responsibilities to actually assisting them in conducting corruption risk assessments and then putting in place corruption prevention policies and plans to help reduce the incidence of corruption and serious misconduct within their departments. The approach we take in the future will be similar to the approach we have taken previously; that is, we tend to have a focus on going to a geographical location to provide wide advice about the opportunity for presentations. We then ring around so that when we go to Bunbury, for example, we get a wide range of personnel from a wide range of agencies attending our presentations. We also provide presentations on an agency specific basis. For example, last week we conducted a presentation about these matters for senior executives of the Department of the Premier and Cabinet. In the next several months, we will be engaged in a briefing program for the staff of ministerial offices to make them aware of the act and their responsibilities under the act. Mr T.K. WALDRON: I have one further quick question on that. How were the initial ones that Mr Silverstone talked about publicised so that people were aware of them? Were they advertised? How were they publicised? Mr M.J.W. Silverstone: They were publicised in the press and through a range of government media agencies as well. Mr M.J. COWPER: I refer to the receipts section on page 416. Will the Attorney General please explain the amount of $2.1 million listed as “Other receipts”? Mr M.J.W. Silverstone: That $2.1 million reflects an element paid by the previous owners of our current new building as a cash incentive to take up the lease. I believe in the end the figure turned out to be about $2.4 million. However, that $2.1 million is shown in the papers. That reflects that sum of money, but I understand it should not have been reflected in that position in the papers. That was an error in the entry. Nevertheless, it is a correct entry of the amount of money provided as an incentive for the commission to enter into its new lease arrangements. Ms S.E. WALKER: I refer to the fourth dot point on page 407, which states - The Commission will continually review its services, processes and structure to ensure it is poised to respond effectively and efficiently to the demands of its shifting operational environment. I did not participate in the debate on the bill when it went through the Parliament, but I wrote to the Attorney General recently about the processes under the act because of a complaint I had received from a constituent about anybody being able to send in a report of misconduct and the person who is the subject of the report not knowing about the report. [3.00 pm] Mr J.A. McGINTY: It was a local government issue as I recollect. [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E127

Ms S.E. WALKER: Yes, it was a local government issue. I understand that the person does not even know that he is under investigation or that his telephone may be tapped. Will there be a review of this act and how complaints are filtered? It can be used to cause people an enormous amount of stress, and then when it comes out that they were under investigation but nothing was found, it attaches a stigma. I was speaking to the member for Murray about why this was different from going to a police officer and making a complaint. The police officer goes to see the person and that person knows that something is going on. In this case, the person does not; the person does not even have to be told about it until it is just about finalised. Has the Attorney General looked at the processes for filtering that information and whether there needs to be a tightening up of the types of complaints that are made, which could be from people who are up to mischief, particularly when they know it can be used as a tool. Mr J.A. McGINTY: I will reply at two levels. One of the enormous changes that the Corruption and Crime Commission legislation brought about in the fight against corruption was to tear away a lot of the secrecy that surrounded it. There are attendant dangers. We used to go through this fiction of referring to the body that could not be named, and that helped bring the Anti-Corruption Commission into disrepute. We took the fairly bold step of giving people the right to say that a matter had been referred to the Corruption and Crime Commission. I am somewhat disappointed that giving people - I refer in particular to the media - the power to report that a matter has been referred to the Corruption and Crime Commission seems to have been abused more than it has been used properly. Ms S.E. WALKER: Because they can give the name. Mr J.A. McGINTY: Yes. I will give one example. On the day before the state election, a report on the front page of the newspaper about the member for Riverton claimed that allegations against him were being referred to the CCC. In my view, that was done with one simple, clear intention and that was to win a seat during an election process, and that was an abuse of process. Ms S.E. WALKER: That is the Attorney General’s view. Ms M.M. QUIRK: Is that a question? Ms S.E. WALKER: I am not asking the member for Girrawheen. I did not mention that. I specifically referred to local government. Mr J.A. McGINTY: I said that there were two elements to the response I wanted to give. I had hoped that there might be a greater discrimination by the press in deciding whether to print a story when it was being done for overtly improper reasons - Ms S.E. WALKER: That is the Attorney General’s opinion. [Mr P.B. Watson took the chair.] Mr J.A. McGINTY: I had hoped that, if someone had done it for an overtly improper reason, the press would exercise a bit more restraint and perhaps not publish that, given that we had come from a situation in which it was unlawful to publish that fact. For instance - I will go back to my time as justice minister - a particular justice officer had used a government credit card to buy prostitutes. Obviously, once it became a matter in the public arena, I needed to be able to account for what I had done and I needed to be able to say that I had referred it to the Corruption and Crime Commission, which is a proper use of that power. We should not underestimate the damage that can be done by making an allegation that a matter has been referred to the Corruption and Crime Commission. As politicians, we tend to develop over time reasonably thick skins about these sorts of things. Those things can be very damaging for politicians, but they can be more damaging for individual citizens who are not exposed to the fairly robust style of political debate in this state. I had hoped that the media would exercise more restraint, knowing that people who are engaged in the thrust and parry of political debate often will not show that restraint. That is unfortunate. Then there is the question of whether a complaint that has been received has been publicised. Generally speaking, it will not have been publicised in order to give rise to the concerns that the member for Nedlands has spoken about; that is, that people have been investigated without their knowledge of it. I will ask Mr Silverstone whether he can comment on the extent to which persons who are subject to an allegation are advised of it and on the Corruption and Crime Commission’s processes of dealing with those allegations. I can certainly foresee circumstances in which a complaint that is received in confidentiality, or that is not made public, is absolutely crucial to the work of the CCC. Mr M.J.W. Silverstone: We need to split notifications of misconduct into two areas. One area is the norm, and the vast number of notifications we receive are not for the most serious forms of misconduct. Those matters are referred back to agencies and a fairly typical process of review is undertaken by agencies by way of open investigation of those matters referred back by the commission. Some matters that come to us are the most serious matters, and those most serious matters are usually retained within the commission. There is a high degree of confidentiality around those matters in the early stages of an investigation as we attempt to form a view about whether serious misconduct has occurred and whether further investigation is warranted. Before any serious matter is taken on or matters are referred back to other agencies, a matter of assessment occurs internally within the agency. Although I do not have the numbers to hand, quite a number of notifications to us are examined and viewed to be both non-serious and not allegations of misconduct, in which case we will close the matters. If someone has provided that advice to us and we form the view

E128 [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] that no misconduct has occurred, we will advise the person who has contacted us by writing back to him or her about that. Quite often we will not inform the persons about whom allegations have been made or publicise the matter because, in our view, if the allegations are not properly based, the matter is closed and it need go no further. Giving it broader publicity does nobody good because there is guilt by association, as is evident and implicit in the question that has been asked. Ms S.E. WALKER: This raises all sorts of questions. I refer to the same dot point on processes and structure. Does the Attorney General think it is appropriate that a person should know that he has been subject to an investigation and then make the decision whether he wishes that to be made common knowledge? I find it very disturbing that a person may have been investigated but does not know about it. Mr J.A. McGINTY: Is the member talking about when the investigation is complete? Ms S.E. WALKER: Yes. In a police investigation, the police come to see the person and they tell the person that a complaint has been made against him and that they are investigating it. They have to get a warrant to have the powers that the people at the commission have, and I will come to who decides. Does the Attorney General think it is appropriate that a person who has been investigated should be informed so that he can decide whether it should be known that he has been investigated? [3.10 pm] Mr J.A. McGINTY: As the law operates at the moment, it is the accuser who can make it public. Ms S.E. WALKER: However, the person who is being investigated will not know, according to the Attorney General’s adviser. Mr J.A. McGINTY: He might know if the person who makes the complaint goes public and says that he has referred the matter to the Corruption and Crime Commission; it is the accuser who makes that fact public rather than the accused. Mr Silverstone explained the way in which things operate. The member raised a general issue that might well be appropriately considered by the parliamentary committee overseeing the Corruption and Crime Commission. It could consider whether changes needed to be made to these procedures. It is not something to which I have particularly turned my mind. Ms S.E. WALKER: It seems that the accuser has everything on his side in a way, and that the alleged innocent person might never know about an investigation. Is the Attorney General aware of how many complaints have been received since the act came into being and how many have been pursued? Of those, how many were found to be groundless? Mr J.A. McGINTY: Mr Silverstone might be able to provide some information on that issue. Mr M.J.W. Silverstone: I cannot answer the question, but I note that, from 1 July 2004 to 30 May 2005, the commission received 1 900 matters from externally generated sources. Of those, 250 related to complaints from individuals and 1 650 related to notifications from public sector agencies. Ms S.E. WALKER: Could that information be provided by way of supplementary information? It could be provided for the time frame that was specified, if that is all right with the minister. Mr J.A. McGINTY: I might be able to provide the member with the answer to that question for the same period. At 27 May 2005, the commission had 863 matters open. Of those, 65 matters were initiated for assessment by the commission, 632 matters were with agencies for investigation but were subject to monitoring by the commission, and 166 matters had been returned by agencies following investigation but were subject to review by the commission. I do not know whether the question of how many were found to be baseless and how many had substance is capable of being answered, other than in the terms I have just provided. I will take advice on that point. I am advised that it would take an enormous amount of work to extract the information that the member for Nedlands is seeking at this time, given that the commission is operating on a manual system pending the introduction of a new computerised system. The CHAIRMAN: Attorney General, does this mean that you will not be providing the information? Mr J.A. McGINTY: It cannot be provided within the time frame to which we would be subject, so no. The question can be put on notice if the member wishes. Ms S.E. WALKER: I have a further question. This goes to the heart of having the Corruption and Crime Commission. The budget papers state that the processes and structure of the commission will be continually reviewed. The fact that the Attorney General cannot or does not want to provide us with information on how many allegations have been found to be groundless - Mr J.A. McGINTY: Sorry, the member misunderstood my earlier response. Because a manual system is in place, that information cannot be provided within the time frame in which answers must be provided to the estimates committees. I have invited the member to put the question on notice. Work will be done to divine those figures. That problem will be corrected when the new computer system comes into operation. The information can be provided, it just cannot be readily provided. The CHAIRMAN: I think the minister has answered the query of the member for Nedlands. [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E129

Ms S.E. WALKER: I did not finish what I was saying before you allowed him to interrupt me, Mr Chairman. The CHAIRMAN: I will make those decisions. Ms S.E. WALKER: I have a further question. It seems incomprehensible that the files that the commission has to hand cannot be manually put into piles to determine how many have been found to be groundless, because that would support whether some people in the community are using the commission as a tool to create difficulties for others. It is very poor that a system is not in place, given the resources that have been provided to the commission. Ms M.M. QUIRK: I refer to the final dot point on page 406, which refers to the commission working to develop integrity systems within the public sector. Has any work been done in this regard on the recording of property seized by police? Mr J.A. McGINTY: I ask Mr Silverstone to answer the question. Mr M.J.W. Silverstone: We are not working directly with the police on the seizure of property. At present, the commission’s focus on the seizure of property relates to its work with the DPP, and is looking at areas in which we might use those provisions to assist in the prosecution of charges or as a consequence of the prosecution of charges resulting from our other investigations. Ms M.M. QUIRK: In the context of the work that Mr Silverstone described, are there deficiencies in the way in which the seizure of property is currently recorded by the police? Mr M.J.W. Silverstone: We have not looked at that matter. Mrs J. HUGHES: I refer to the fourth dot point on page 406, which states that the commission is increasingly focusing on the use of intelligence to target areas of the most serious misconduct. Is that based on current capabilities or on the major initiative outlined on page 410, which talks about developing the intelligence capacity, including an intelligence model? Are they interrelated? Mr M.J.W. Silverstone: The two are related. In the initial proposed structure for the commission, no provision was made for personnel with a discrete intelligence function. Having looked at the way in which our business is conducted, we have formed the view that that is important, so we have diverted personnel resources into developing an intelligence capability, part of which is the consideration of alternative models within the commission for using intelligence to develop proactive investigations. Mr T.K. WALDRON: I refer to the first dot point on page 407, which states - The Commission will continue to facilitate access by the Western Australia Police Service (WAPS) to the extraordinary powers available to the Police Commissioner under the Corruption and Crime Commission Act 2003 in order to improve the frequency and effectiveness of the use of these powers. What are these powers? Could the Attorney General perhaps give examples of when and how they might be used? [3.20 pm] Mr J.A. McGINTY: The powers relate to organised crime, in particular to outlaw motorcycle gangs. The powers provide for a person suspected of involvement in organised crime to be brought forward to make a statement of evidence to assist the police in their inquiries into organised crime. I am using these terms in a very general sense. It also includes a power of authorisation for police to remove fortification of bikie headquarters. These are the two general areas of these exceptional powers. I am aware that these powers have been used, but on a very sparing basis. Mr Silverstone might be able to give more information. Mr T.K. WALDRON: On a point of clarification; it says to facilitate access. How does it actually take place? Mr M.J.W. Silverstone: That occurs when the Commissioner of Police makes application to the commission for access to the powers, whether it be for the conduct of hearings or to have access to the use of the powers under the act to enter, search, seize and conduct controlled operations, etc. Mr M.J. COWPER: I refer to page 409 of the Budget Statements wherein it states that investigations are carried out into allegations of misconduct across the entire public sector including the Police Service. My question relates to the answer given to the member for Nedlands that about 1 900 complaints have been received - 250 from individuals and 1 650 from public sector agencies. How many of the 1 900 come under the Police Service portfolio? Mr M.J.W. Silverstone: Of the majority of those notifications in the order of 1 900, about 70 per cent relate to police. However, I hasten to add that the 70 per cent relates to police in that the police have well-developed processes for notifying suspicions of misconduct and, in addition, they are required to notify us of a far wider range of issues than other agencies. For example, ranging from a serious misconduct, including allegations of acceptance of money for information down to complaints by members of the public that, for instance, Constable Brown failed to remove his sunglasses whilst talking to someone on the side of the road. The range of police notification is far more extensive and, therefore, far greater.

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Mr M.J. COWPER: In essence, 70 per cent of the 1 900 includes issues in relation to local complaint resolutions that are conducted within the Police Service and it notifies the Corruption and Crime Commission as a matter of courtesy and the commission reports them as part of the 1 900. Mr J.A. McGINTY: It is not a matter of courtesy; it is required to. Mr M.J. COWPER: So, it is a requirement that they are reported to the Corruption and Crime Commission. In light of the number of LCRs, as they are called, would that narrow the number of serious matters before the CCC to a situation where there may be an indication of the nature or number of how many serious matters are before the CCC? Mr M.J.W. Silverstone: We have considered 47 serious matters out of that total number of 1 900 since our establishment; that is, 47 serious matters across the public sector. Ms M.M. QUIRK: I refer to the second dot point under major initiatives for 2005-06 on page 410 of the Budget Statements which is to develop and implement an electronic case management system. It is clear from the evidence that has already been given this afternoon that there is an urgent need for that electronic case management system. Did the Corruption and Crime Commission inherit the one from the Anti-Corruption Commission? If not, why not? What time frame is there for the development of the electronic case management system? Are delays further caused by the need for high levels of encryption and so forth? Mr M.J.W. Silverstone: We inherited information systems from both the Kennedy royal commission and the ACC. They used different operating systems based on information business systems that were becoming out of date. We are faced with the challenge of reworking our whole information technology structure and that has seen us use the hardware systems from both sources and put in place a new network that is concerned with adequate layers of protection. We have now introduced an electronic document management system, which is the first layer of our business systems and now we are in the process of preparing a tender for a case management system. We have spent the last four months looking at a range of case management systems from around the country, including the previous ACC model that we had access to and used for investigation purposes. We formed the view that we would have delivered a proprietary system based on our particular needs of meshing the notifications process - that number of 1 900 - with the need for intelligence and the case management of serious investigations. We anticipate introducing that in December this year. Mr M.J. COWPER: I make reference to my previous question in relation to 47 serious matters out of 1 900 that went before the CCC. Would it not be prudent that the LCRs are referred back to the police? I acknowledge there is a requirement under the act for them to be notified to the CCC. Would it not be better served if the LCRs were the dominion of the Police Service, then the recording and tracking of the 47 serious offences could be better managed in light of the fact that we are spending $36 million on 47 serious matters? Mr J.A. McGINTY: It is important that the minor matters from the Police Service are referred to the CCC, and that formed part of the debate on the legislation establishing the CCC. These were matters which were once referred to the Ombudsman and it was thought appropriate that they should be referred to the CCC for this reason; that is, it would give the CCC the power to be aware of particular complaints, the nature of the complaints and the names of the officers who were the subjects of the complaints. Occasionally it is the case that minor infringements can give a lead into bigger events occurring in the community. It was thought appropriate that these matters be referred to the CCC, not for investigation but for monitoring and noting so that the CCC is aware of them, and that the local complaints be referred back the Police Service for finalisation. It does form a very important part of the overall knowledge base of the CCC when dealing with the Police Service. It is aware of all levels of improper behaviour, if I can put it that way. They are handled separately within the CCC and that does not in any way detract from the pursuit of the 47 serious matters to which reference has been made. [3.30 pm] Mr M.J. COWPER: I think there are 30 different public sector organisations within government. Do they also have a requirement to advise the CCC of a similar sort of system for local complaint resolution? For instance, does the Water Corporation have a complaint resolution system through which it is required to advise the CCC, as does Western Power and so on? Mr J.A. McGINTY: The police have historically had minor disciplinary matters oversighted by an external agency. That was carried forward with the CCC legislation. Therefore, the answer to the member’s question is that other government agencies do not have the same level of minor complaints that are required to be investigated externally and they have not historically had that. This was picked up from the Kennedy royal commission and carried forward with the CCC. It is a peculiarly police-focused provision and different rules apply to the police than to other public sector agencies. The other concern that exists is that because agencies, other than the police, do not have such highly refined reporting mechanisms, there is a concern that there is a measure of under-reporting of misconduct by some. Within the system there is no concern about under-reporting by the police because of their established systems and systems that have been in place for some time. Mr M.J. COWPER: Given that that is the case, would the Attorney General not agree that an inference could be drawn that there is a history of mistrust of the Police Service as opposed to any other public sector organisation? [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E131

Mr J.A. McGINTY: No. I would look at it this way: the position of trust that the police enjoy is such that accompanying that must go a higher degree of scrutiny, not an element of distrust. Mr M.J. COWPER: They are probably the single most scrutinised organisation in the country. Given that the service has overseeing it an internal investigation branch, a professional standards branch, an ombudsman and the CCC, and has recently come through a royal commission, I doubt whether there would be any more scrutinised group in the country. That begs the question: I understand we need safeguards and ways for matters to be cross-referenced, but I have a bit of difficulty with this situation when there are 132 employees, and a budget of $37 million to deal with only 47 serious matters. Are we getting value for money? Mr J.A. McGINTY: That argument could have been put three or four years ago under the old Anti-Corruption Commission, because there was not much evidence that the investment we were making, which was admittedly less than is currently allocated, was in fact delivering results. Some of the recent high-profile cases have shown the CCC to be a remarkably effective body. Anecdotally it seems to be striking fear into the heart of a few people, at least in local government, and hopefully elsewhere. Hopefully, the effect of this is delivering results. What price do we put on minimising corruption in the public sector? That is a very difficult question to answer. Part of the $36 million to which the member has referred is capital and not recurrent cost, but when the Kennedy royal commission was established we knew there would be a recommendation to create something like the CCC to replace the existing body oversighting the police with a more effective body. We think we have done that. We think that the CCC enjoys a higher level of public confidence than did the Anti-Corruption Commission. We think that is a worthwhile investment and it seems that we are getting the runs on the board in the fight against public sector corruption. We should never underestimate the effect of one or two successful high profile public hearings or prosecutions in making sure that people behave in an ethical way in the public sector, whether in the Police Service or elsewhere. Ms S.E. WALKER: I refer to the same dot point on page 407 dealing with the review of services, processes and structure. Currently there are 132 full-time equivalents at the Corruption and Crime Commission. Who decides how matters are classified? How are they classified? What are the classifications? Mr M.J.W. Silverstone: All matters coming into the commission are referred to the investigations, review and complaints assessment staff who conduct an initial assessment of either a complaint or a notification of suspected misconduct. They have a delegation from the commissioner for those matters that they may automatically process, or those matters that should be referred to him for consideration. The 98 per cent of matters that are referred back to other agencies are then referred to the other agencies, fairly typically the agency directly affected, although we may refer matters to the police public sector investigations unit for investigation. When those matters are referred to those agencies for their own investigation, the conduct of those investigations is monitored by the commission. Once the investigations are complete, they come back to the commission for a review to ensure that the commission can form a view that the investigations have been both appropriately and adequately canvassed. Those investigations that are neither complete nor adequate are then referred back to agencies to have any shortfalls addressed. The matters are then closed. They are the relatively minor areas. Matters dealing with serious misconduct are typically referred to our investigations unit when considerable focus is put on them. Ms S.E. WALKER: Is the classification of matters outlined in the act? I am thinking of the Judicial Commission of New South Wales when the complaint is against the judicial officers. It is classified as serious or minor. Is there a classification in the act, or is that something that is done administratively? Mr J.A. McGINTY: “Serious misconduct” is defined in the act and has its origins there. That is the key classification of allegations that is raised by the Corruption and Crime Commission. Ms S.E. WALKER: I am sorry, I did not hear what the Attorney General said. Mr J.A. McGINTY: Serious misconduct is in the act. Ms S.E. WALKER: Whereabouts is “serious”? Mr J.A. McGINTY: I do not have a copy of the act with me. Ms S.E. WALKER: I have. Mr J.A. McGINTY: Have a look in the definitions section. Ms S.E. WALKER: I looked. The CHAIRMAN: We are straying off the question; can we get back onto the question? Ms S.E. WALKER: There are 132 full-time equivalents and 47 serious matters. That is almost three people per year working on one matter. Mr J.A. McGINTY: No. I think the explanation has been given, as an educational function, of the 1 900 complaints that have come in. Every person in the Corruption and Crime Commission does a series of things other than investigate complaints.

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Ms S.E. WALKER: Once a matter is considered serious and it is investigated, is the investigation with phone tapping, following and so on carried out by police or entirely by the commission? Mr J.A. McGINTY: Yes, that is done by Corruption and Crime Commission staff. Ms S.E. WALKER: Is nothing done externally? Mr J.A. McGINTY: No. I recall in the debate when this legislation came before the Parliament there was concern that it would pose an unacceptable conflict to involve the police in investigating complaints, particularly when 70 per cent of the matters are against police, and the decision was taken to conduct the investigations by the Corruption and Crime Commission’s own investigators. Ms S.E. WALKER: I asked who assesses the matters that go to the Corruption and Crime Commission and I was told a committee. However, what is the make-up of those people; are they former police officers or lawyers? Can the minister tell me something about the people? Mr M.J.W. Silverstone: The assessment is not conducted by a committee. In the first instance, it is reviewed by the members of the investigations review and complaints assessment unit. Ms S.E. WALKER: Who are they? Mr M.J.W. Silverstone: They comprise primarily former officers from the Ombudsman’s office who have long experience of reviewing notifications of these matters. They have a framework that they use for judging the relative seriousness of those matters and they form a view of where the matter should go from there. Ms S.E. WALKER: Will the minister tell me whether it is possible for citizens to go into the commission and ask whether they are or have ever been in the past the subject of an investigation; and, if so, what they were all about and who requested them? Mr J.A. McGINTY: The answer is yes, they can go and ask but they will not necessarily be given the information, depending on the view that is taken by the Corruption and Crime Commission. Ms S.E. WALKER: Is there a provision in the act that the commissioner may, if asked, give a private citizen that information? Is that a discretion at the hands of the commission or is it something the Attorney General made up? Mr J.A. McGINTY: There is provision in the Corruption and Crime Commission Act for the commissioner to form the view that it is in the public interest for information to be released. I guess that is the authority to which the member is referring. It is, therefore, up to the commissioner to satisfy himself of the necessary matters before that information is released. The CHAIRMAN: It has been brought to my attention that the committee wishes to have a small break for afternoon tea. Mr J.A. McGINTY: I want to get going. Mr M.J. COWPER: If the minister calls it, that is what we have to do. Ms S.E. WALKER: The Attorney General has the life of Reilly. Mr J.A. McGINTY: Have we finished this division? The CHAIRMAN: No, there are still some questions to come. Do members wish to take the break now for 10 minutes? Mr J.A. McGINTY: Yes. Meeting suspended from 3.45 to 4.00 pm The CHAIRMAN: Are there any other questions on division 25? Ms M.M. QUIRK: I refer to major initiatives for 2005-06 on page 412. The first dot point refers to further engagement with the Western Australia Police Service with the aim of developing appropriate protocols for the limitation, reporting on and oversight of the exercise of exceptional powers. What does “limitation” mean in that context? I am a bit perplexed about what that sentence means. Why should there be any discussion or protocols on the limitation of exceptional powers? Mr M.J.W. Silverstone: The limitation phrase is there because expressly under the act the commission may limit the exercise of powers by police. There is, therefore, a protocol for limiting and having oversight of the powers. Ms M.M. QUIRK: In other words, although certain powers are conferred through the CCC to the police, the CCC in consultation with the Western Australia Police Service can restrict the use of those powers. Mr M.J.W. Silverstone: Certainly it would be in consultation with the Commissioner of Police. The power resides with the commission to limit those powers if it is viewed as required in the judgment of the commission. [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E133

Ms M.M. QUIRK: Without obviously wanting to disclose any operational matter or have the Attorney General disclose any operational matter, I cannot quite understand the circumstances in which that would arise. Mr M.J.W. Silverstone: The commission may provide for the Commissioner of Police to have access to certain extraordinary powers for entry, search and other related matters. The range of those powers includes enhanced power to enter, search and detain, for example. The commission may form a view about the degree to which those powers should be applied. Specific reporting regimes beyond those specified in the act may be required. This is a matter that we are still exploring with the police; hence the need to develop protocols. Mr M.J. COWPER: I refer to works in progress on page 412. The estimated expenditure for new operational support equipment in 2005-06 is more than $10 million. Is the Corruption and Crime Commission getting new aircraft? An amount of $10 million will provide an awful lot of equipment for 137 people. Mr M.J.W. Silverstone: It is a considerable amount of money. Initially that amount was provided for in this year’s budget. However, the people who were responsible for the establishment of the commission estimated that amount would need to be spent on equipment. They were attempting to forecast the nature of the operations and the types of equipment and structure the commission would require. However, since June last year the commission formed the view that some of those requirements were overstated and we deferred consideration of a range of projects into this coming year. It is our intention over the next few months to conduct a further review of those matters to decide whether we need to spend the money on that equipment. I would prefer not to talk about the specifics of the operational equipment in this forum. Mr M.J. COWPER: I acknowledge the reasons why the executive director would not wish to detail what equipment is being purchased. However, is it safe to say that it is surveillance equipment? Mr M.J.W. Silverstone: It is safe to say that those moneys will include the purchase of surveillance equipment. Mrs J. HUGHES: I refer to the first dot point under major initiatives on page 411 of the Budget Statements, which is to develop an administrative investigation manual to improve the capacity of the public sector. Does that include also local government? Mr M.J.W. Silverstone: That will include local government because it falls into the realm of the public sector. The purposes of the manual is to provide the opportunity for public sector agencies to develop and enhance their capacity for the conduct of their own investigations with a view to assisting them in being more responsive to dealing with complaints that come to them. Mrs J. HUGHES: Does that include also the elected member portion of the local government, or is it only within the administrative side? Mr M.J.W. Silverstone: Primarily the manual will be used by those on the administrative side of local government. My understanding is that mayors and shire presidents, for want of a better term, are CEOs in their own right and would have recourse to be concerned about reporting misconduct and how that is dealt with in their areas of responsibility. Ms S.E. WALKER: I refer to the fourth dot point on page 407 of the Budget Statements, which notes that the commission will continually review its services, processes and structure. Section 25 of the Corruption and Crime Commission Act states that any person may report misconduct, which is misleading. The definition of misconduct is corruption. I would not have thought that would include a policeman who is wearing his sunglasses when he is talking to someone. However, subsection (5) states - A person who makes a report under this section and who does so - (a) knowing that the content of the report is false or misleading in a material respect; (b) maliciously, or recklessly, is guilty of a crime. The penalty for breaching that law is a term of imprisonment for three years and a fine of $60 000. A charge cannot be brought against a person under that section by anyone other than the Director of Public Prosecutions. Will the Attorney General tell me how many of the matters that have been referred to the Corruption and Crime Commission have been the subject of section 25(5)? Has the commission sought to bring a charge against a person for the reasons I have just outlined; that is, a report of misconduct was made maliciously or recklessly, or it was false or misleading? Mr J.A. McGINTY: There have been none. Ms S.E. WALKER: I do not suppose the Attorney General would be able to provide that information considering the department does not have a computer and all that information is logged manually. Is anyone in the commission’s office tracking whether any allegations have been brought maliciously or recklessly or whether any misleading or false allegations have been made? Mr J.A. McGINTY: I have no doubt that if the commission were satisfied that the requisite degree of knowledge in section 25(5) were present in respect of a complaint that had been brought maliciously, the commission would refer the matter to the DPP for the purpose of prosecuting that individual.

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Ms M.M. QUIRK: I refer the Attorney General to the third dot point on page 407 of the Budget Statements, which notes that refinements will occur regarding the commission’s commitment to the development of its people and organisational culture. Many of those positions were only recently recruited in the past year. What is meant by the word “refinement”? [4.10 pm] Mr M.J.W. Silverstone: Refinement means adjustment of our needs and purposes. At this stage we are using either a range of draft policies that we have prepared or other policies that have been taken from the public sector. As we settle as an organisation and meld the people from the wide range of backgrounds who work with us, there will be a need to refine those policies, and particularly focusing on ensuring that we continue the development of our people, as we see that as important in attracting quality people to the organisation. Ms M.M. QUIRK: The refinements relate to both policy and the profile of the people whom the commission will need for its ongoing investigations; is that right? Mr M.J.W. Silverstone: The refinements will be of processes, procedures and structures, and the development of our people. They actually embrace quite a wide range of factors within the organisation. As we adjust the procedures and the structure, we will adjust the job description forms for our people. Naturally, over time we will look at refinements in the type of people we attract. Ms M.M. QUIRK: I am puzzled, because a lot of these people would have been recruited less than 12 months ago, and Mr Silverstone seems to be saying that somehow they might not be equipped for the purposes for which they were acquired and might need to be “refined”. Mr J.A. McGINTY: Perhaps Mr Silverstone is the best one to answer what he meant by that. Mr M.J.W. Silverstone: What I meant by that is that the structure of the organisation was established based on a view by those who were involved with the Kennedy royal commission in making recommendations about the Corruption and Crime Commission but who are not required to operate it. As we have now been established for some 17 months, we have worked with the act and developed a view about what is required of us. As our external environment is also changing, the commission must continue to change and adapt to those requirements. Ms M.M. QUIRK: I have one final question. Are any positions unfilled at present? Mr M.J.W. Silverstone: Yes. I can indicate briefly that we have 132 positions. Our authorised number of full-time equivalents is 153. Some 21 positions are unfilled. A range of positions across the organisation are vacant at this time, some deliberately so as we have sought to refine what those positions should look like as we go forward. Others are through natural attrition. For example, people have been headhunted to go to the Office of Police Integrity in Victoria. Therefore, we are starting to see a flow through the organisation, which is normal. The appropriation was recommended. Division 26: Parliamentary Inspector of the Corruption and Crime Commission, $515 000 - The appropriation was recommended. Division 27: Law Reform Commission of Western Australia, $869 000 - Mr A.P. O’Gorman, Chairman. Mr J.A. McGinty, Attorney General. Ms H. Kay, Executive Officer. Mr A. Abraham, Manager, Finance and Administration, Corruption and Crime Commission. Ms S.E. WALKER: I refer to the significant issues and trends on page 425 and to the commission’s new reference on problem-oriented courts and judicial case management. On 6 May 2005 a forum entitled “At the Cutting Edge: Therapeutic Jurisprudence” was held in Perth. A very comprehensive talk was given by the Chief Justice on the Perth Drug Court and the Geraldton Magistrates Court. In that talk the Chief Justice said that he was looking forward to reviewing the recommendations of the WA Law Reform Commission findings regarding the benefits of utilising problem-solving courts and associated judicial case management. One of those courts is the Drug Court, which the Attorney General has starved of funds. Will the Attorney General tell me, firstly, whether any more funds are available for the Drug Court; and, secondly, when the Law Reform Commission’s report will be available and whether the Attorney General has any idea whether it will recommend that more funds be put into the Drug Court and therapeutic jurisprudence? Mr J.A. McGINTY: The Law Reform Commission is due to complete its report on problem-solving courts by December this year, so that report should be available for our consideration at that time. The Drug Court is one court; the Family Violence Court, which has been operating at Joondalup, is another. Some interest has been expressed about sex offenders and Aboriginal offenders. They have been expressly mentioned as areas that might benefit. We have also [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E135 had the benefit of Dr Michael King’s work in Geraldton, with his therapeutic jurisprudence as employed in that court. Dr King will leave Geraldton in the next few months and come down to Perth to become the chairman of the Drug Court. He will continue to develop his very significant interest in therapeutic jurisprudence. In Kalgoorlie there are currently two people who have great expertise in matters relating to Aboriginal people and the law. They are Magistrate Kate Auty and Magistrate Steve Sharratt. We have done some work on the development of Aboriginal courts in the remote areas of Western Australia. However, a lot more needs to be done. On that issue, we are certainly interested in looking at the interaction between the Law Reform Commission report dealing with Aboriginal customary law, which I think is also expected in the next 12 months, and the report on problem-solving courts. I think the two will come together quite nicely as an issue that we need to look to for the future. I will deal with the other question asked by the member for Nedlands about whether there is more money for the Drug Court. The Drug Court has been funded and reviewed. It has been continued on the basis on which the funding was originally provided to it, so I am not quite sure of the origin of the claim that the court has been starved of funds. Ms S.E. WALKER: The Chief Justice did not mention anything about a sex offenders’ court. He mentioned drug courts, domestic violence courts and Aboriginal customary law courts, I think. What does the Attorney General mean when he talks about a sex offenders’ court? Is this part of the SafeCare program? Mr J.A. McGINTY: No. Ms S.E. WALKER: What is it? Mr J.A. McGINTY: I was responding to a general question about the specific offending areas that go to either the identity of the offender or the nature of the offending, which have been raised and which I am aware of, and thinking of other places where there are specific courts dealing with those matters. At this stage there is no intention to move into any of those matters, but they are all areas that I suspect will be the subject of a report from the Law Reform Commission. [4.20 pm] Ms S.E. WALKER: The Attorney General has mentioned the domestic violence court, the Drug Court, Aboriginal customary law and the circle sentencing in New South Wales, but where is the sex offenders court. What is envisaged with that? Mr J.A. McGINTY: Nothing is envisaged with that. Ms S.E. WALKER: The Attorney General said that it has been suggested. I just wonder where. Mr J.A. McGINTY: I am aware that elsewhere there has been either discussion about or the establishment of courts to deal with certain classes of sex offenders. It is not a matter that I have particularly thought about; I am just aware that it is out there. Ms S.E. WALKER: Is the Law Reform Commission looking at a sex offenders court and its reference? Mr J.A. McGINTY: I do not know. Ms S.E. WALKER: Can the Attorney General ask his adviser? Mr J.A. McGINTY: The Law Reform Commission will look at all courts and all potentials, including all international practices. A report will be made available to us in December this year on all the options that present themselves. Ms S.E. WALKER: Was that a yes? Mr J.A. McGINTY: The answer is what I have just said to the member. Mr M.J. COWPER: Further to that point, does the review include the Children’s Court and, of particular interest to me, the restorative justice program? Mr J.A. McGINTY: I do not know. The Law Reform Commission will conduct its own research and will report on what it thinks appropriate to report on. I cannot put it any higher than this. The terms of reference are fairly broad to enable it to look at a range of matters. I have my doubts whether it will look in detail at the Children’s Court, given its well-established independent operation, but I do not know. I will wait until I see the report. Mrs J. HUGHES: The second dot point of the major initiatives on page 428 refers to the discussion papers on Aboriginal customary laws. Will the proposed recommendations or the whole discussion paper go out for public comment? Mr J.A. McGINTY: Ms Kay might be able to answer that question. Ms H. Kay: The whole discussion paper will be available for consideration. Mrs J. HUGHES: Will the recommendations be based on that? Ms H. Kay: The recommendations will be in a proposal format and will go out to people for consideration. We will get people’s feedback and submissions and from there we will make our final recommendations. They will be in a proposal format initially.

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Mrs C.A. MARTIN: I refer to the second dot point of the major initiatives for 2005-06. It states that the discussion papers will go out for consultation to various remote Aboriginal communities in July 2005. Will the communities be those that were involved in the consultation from the beginning? Will the people who were involved be consulted about the draft? There are a number of communities in the Kimberley. Will the Law Reform Commission go to those as well? Ms H. Kay: We have not identified any communities as yet, but we are looking at fairly large communities that we went to in the first place for the consultations and that are representative of the people we spoke with. We will take both the discussion paper and the recommendations, as well as a more user-friendly format that is more comprehensive and easier for people to deal with. We will get people’s feedback directly, which we thought was more appropriate than sending up a document and hoping that people could wade through something that is the size of a telephone book. We will take it back in chunks and explain it to them in a bit more detail. Mrs C.A. MARTIN: Will that mean that the Kimberley Aboriginal Law and Cultural Centre will be involved in the consultation on the final drafts? Ms H. Kay: Quite possibly, yes. Mrs C.A. MARTIN: The Kimberley Aboriginal Law and Cultural Centre represents all the senior elders in one place. Harry Blagg has spent a considerable amount of time consulting with that group, so that is the basis of my question. I wondered whether there was an undertaking that KALACC would be involved. Ms H. Kay: Absolutely. Mr T.K. WALDRON: I refer to the same dot point on page 428. When the Law Reform Commission visits remote Aboriginal communities, will it visit south west Aboriginal communities and consult with them, or does it not apply to the customary law in those areas? Mr J.A. McGINTY: I will get Ms Kay to talk about the consultation that has taken place and who has been consulted. Ms H. Kay: We went through the south west. We have been to various communities statewide. Our ambition is to go back to those communities and take with us the discussion papers, so, yes, we would go through the south west. Mr T.K. WALDRON: I wanted to clarify that they were involved. Ms H. Kay: Absolutely. The appropriation was recommended. Division 28: Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions, $14 812 000 - Mr A.P. O’Gorman, Chairman. Mr J.A. McGinty, Attorney General. Mr K.P. Bates, Acting Director of Public Prosecutions. Mr A. Abraham, Manager, Finance and Administration, Corruption and Crime Commission. Ms S.E. WALKER: I refer to the line item for the confiscation of assets in the service and appropriation summary on page 434. Does this relate to the proceeds of crime, or what is generally known as the Mr Big legislation? If it does, does the $1.1 million represent the amount of money that has been confiscated in the past year? Mr J.A. McGINTY: I will give two answers. The first point that the member has raised is the proceeds of crime. It is often referred to as that in a shorthand way, but, as the member will be aware, it is not confined only to the proceeds of crime. The ability to confiscate extends to unexplained wealth, which may or may not be crime related. It is certainly the confiscation of assets from people who have either committed a crime, used that property in connection with the commission of a crime or have unexplained wealth. I think that another category can give rise to confiscation as well. This is not the money that has been collected; this is the expenditure by the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions on maintaining its assets confiscation service within the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions. It is funded from the consolidated fund allocation, which is then topped up each year. I am not sure whether this is included in that, but only part of the cost of running that service in the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions is funded from the money that is confiscated. The rest is funded by the consolidated fund contribution. Ms S.E. WALKER: The expenditure for running that legislation was $1.1 million. The income, which is referred to on page 436 but it is still the same issue, appears to be $400 000 last year; is that right? The Office of the DPP took $400 000. Mr J.A. McGINTY: I do not think that is right. Ms S.E. WALKER: It made $400 000 from the proceeds of crime. [4.30 pm] Mr J.A. McGINTY: Mr Bates might be able to add to this. The amount of work undertaken by the confiscation unit of the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions has expanded, which has led to an increase in the number of staff. I [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E137 am told that approximately $1.8 million has been paid into the confiscation proceeds account during this financial year, which is significantly more than in previous years. Only a proportion of that has been applied to meet the costs associated with the confiscation of property by the Office of the DPP. Money is also paid to the Police Service and is paid out of that fund to community groups. Mr Bates might be able to add to those comments in relation to confiscation. Mr K.P. Bates: The amount received by the confiscation team has increased quite considerably in 2004-05. As the Attorney General has indicated, it is anticipated that $1.8 million will be received into that account. This represents a significant increase over previous years. In 2003-04, the amount received was approximately $1.17 million and in 2002-03 it was $1.338 million. It is anticipated that approximately $500 000 more will be received this financial year, which represents a significant increase in the amount that has been received and paid into the confiscation proceeds account in the past. The number of full-time equivalents has increased from seven to 10 FTEs. A couple of major matters are being dealt with and the legislation is starting to bite a lot of other matters. We are starting to see results in terms of increased returns. Ms S.E. WALKER: Can the Attorney General explain the figures on page 436? The total cost of the service in 2003- 04 was $954 000, less income of $500 000. From those figures, the net cost of the service to the state was $454 000. In 2004-05, as Mr Bates said, $1.07 million was the total cost of the service, less income of $400 000. The net cost was $670 000. The confiscation process cost the state $670 000 and the income received was $400 000. Mr J.A. McGINTY: That is not the total income that was received; it was the total income applied to the Office of the DPP. Ms S.E. WALKER: Where do the budget papers provide a figure for how much the DPP confiscated under the act? Mr J.A. McGINTY: They are found in the DPP’s annual report. The budget papers talk about the total cost of the service. It is estimated that it will cost $1.1 million to employ the 10 staff and run the confiscation service under the Office of the DPP in the coming year. Of course, that is tied up with the work that is done by the equivalent confiscation unit of the Police Service before a matter gets to the Office of the DPP, and that unit receives less funding to complete its work. The taxpayer, through the consolidated fund, pays for the bulk of the cost of the confiscation unit. The $500 000 shown as income in the Budget Statements is simply the part of the confiscated money that is paid to the DPP for the purposes of running that office. The balance of the money is paid to the police and community organisations, particularly in the drug and crime prevention areas. Ms S.E. WALKER: I have a copy of the DPP’s annual report for 2003-04, which states on page 24 under the section on proceeds of crime - The proceeds of confiscated assets are paid into the Confiscation Proceeds Account and the Attorney General has the power to make grants from the account for a range of purposes. A total of $719,815 was paid into the Confiscation Proceeds Account from property of declared drug traffickers. Can the Attorney General tell me where the figure on the proceeds of crime comes from? Mr J.A. McGINTY: The extract the member read relates only to drug traffickers, and it is not exclusively drug traffickers who are the source of confiscated assets. There is also growing potential for confiscation to occur with white-collar crime. Most of the media profile in this area is directed at people who are declared drug traffickers and to the confiscation of their assets. Ms S.E. WALKER: On page 25 the report provides details of the amounts paid into the confiscation proceeds account since the act commenced. In 2000-01 it was $417 074, in 2001-02 it was $779 533, in 2002-03 it was $1 388 500 and in 2003-04 it was $1 170 275. Is the $1.17 million the amount that the DPP produced from prosecutions or applications under the Criminal Property Confiscation Act? Mr J.A. McGINTY: Yes. Ms S.E. WALKER: Okay. In 2004-05, the cost of the service was $1.07 million. An amount of $1.17 million was received in 2003-04. It costs something like $1.07 million to get that amount. Mr J.A. McGINTY: To which we need to add the cost of the police unit that is dedicated to confiscating assets as well. I do not know what the cost would be, but I expect it to be at least as much as the DPP contribution. It costs the state more to confiscate assets than is currently raised from those confiscations. Ms S.E. WALKER: It is not really working, is it? Mr J.A. McGINTY: Absolutely it is. Having this as part of the armoury in the fight is incredibly good value, particularly against drug traffickers. Ms S.E. WALKER: It is not getting the Mr Bigs though, is it? Mr J.A. McGINTY: It gets people who are declared drug traffickers. They are significant people who need to be dealt with harshly in accordance with the law. Once someone is a declared drug trafficker, we are not talking about the corner junkie.

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Ms S.E. WALKER: I agree with the Attorney General about that; they are serious offenders. What I am trying to say is that $1.17 million is not a lot of money. I am not sure whether the Attorney General can tell me, but how much money is laundered in Perth from drug dealing? Mr J.A. McGINTY: I could not hazard a guess at that figure. It was always expected that this would be an area of the law that would build up gradually. Under the previous criminal property confiscation legislation, which existed prior to 2001, the amount confiscated each year was in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. At least now it is measured as about a million dollars, if not in the millions of dollars. An amount of $1.8 million has been confiscated this year. I expect that with the passage of time, as the police gain greater expertise and as more resources are dedicated to this process by the Office of the DPP, the amount confiscated will continue to grow and will continue to be an important part of the penalties that can be dealt out to people who traffic in drugs. It might appear simplistic, but I have always held the view that two things work with people who traffic in drugs; the first is the threat of loss of liberty for a long time and the second is the taking away of their ill-gotten gains. They are both crucial parts. When we are talking about the effectiveness of the various penalties, there is a lot more to this equation than simply an economic analysis of income versus expenditure. We do not normally associate the penalties imposed on criminals with the provision of an income to the system; it is purely expenditure by the state to maintain civil order. The fact that we can offset a significant part of the cost of this by using the money that is gained from criminals to go back to law enforcement is a positively good thing. [4.40 pm] Ms M.M. QUIRK: I refer to page 436, confiscation of assets, which Mr Bates touched on. I understand that in the past 12 months there have been some significant legal challenges in relation to the act and that those challenges will question areas of the law that are hitherto untested. Given the member for Nedlands’ questions, what impact does that have on the resources within the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions? Mr K.P. Bates: This year it is anticipated that $1.8 million will be received, which is a considerable increase on the previous years. Some of these proceedings are very complex and they can take a long time to come to fruition. There are two substantive matters on at the moment. One is the Mansfield matter, where the DPP is contending that Mansfield has obtained a criminal benefit of in excess of $3 million. There is the matter of Centurion, which is a very large matter as well. These larger type matters take a long time to come to fruition and also there are a number of legal challenges, given the amounts of money that are involved. Those legal challenges take up a lot of resources and that has certainly slowed down these matters. It is anticipated that with some matters in the system considerable benefits ultimately will be recouped. The number of staff has gone up from seven to 10 and resources are being put in to meet the demands that are created by the larger type matters. Ms M.M. QUIRK: I am familiar with the Mansfield matter. Is it true to say that it is testing some novel areas of the law and once it is settled it would certainly clear the path in the future, one would hope? Mr K.P. Bates: That is correct. The act is a relatively new one and it will take time for some of the legal issues relating to it to be sorted out. Once the parameters are set by the appeal courts and there is greater certainty about the act, it will make the act easier to apply. Ms M.M. QUIRK: Also in relation to confiscation of assets, the Attorney General would be aware that from time to time, as a result of some of these proceedings and the financial investigation, tax assessments are raised. Would the amount raised under proceeds of crime sometimes exclude assessments made by the Australian Taxation Office on moneys payable to the federal revenue? Mr K.P. Bates: That is correct. The Western Australia Police Service has bodies set up to investigate these matters. It collects a lot of information. Sometimes that information is passed on to the tax commissioner and assessments are raised. Decisions are made, on the basis of the most effective use of resources, on whether it is better to go down the line of the commissioner issuing assessments and recouping funds from drug dealers and other criminals in that way or whether it is better for resources, such as those of the DPP, to be employed to obtain moneys under the confiscation legislation. It is true that there is an exchange of information and there are assessments raised by the commissioner that are, of course, confidential and secret under the legislation. The amount received as a result of an investigation by the WA Police Service is not fully reflected in the figures of the DPP, which show only the amounts recovered specifically under the confiscation legislation. Ms M.M. QUIRK: It would be true to say, Attorney - Ms S.E. WALKER: Is that a question? The CHAIRMAN: Every member is entitled to a question and I will allocate them as I see fit. Ms M.M. QUIRK: Is it true to say that the methodologies used to trace assets in the course of these confiscation proceedings are also methodologies that are useful, for example, in disclosing instances of money laundering, thereby minimising the capacity for criminals to engage in this conduct? [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E139

Mr K.P. Bates: It is certainly true that in investigations instances of money laundering are uncovered and that those offences are prosecuted in the normal way through the criminal courts. That provides a valuable adjunct to ensuring that money laundering does not take place. If criminals cannot launder their money, there is not much point in obtaining the money in the first place. It is another tool in the fight against organised crime. It is another way of attacking people who, through criminal activities, raise large amounts of money. The CHAIRMAN: I remind members that we have another two divisions after division 28 and we are due to finish at 5.00 pm, and there are no extensions. The appropriation was recommended. Division 29: Office of the Information Commissioner, $1 183 000 - Mr A.P. O’Gorman, Chairman. Mr J.A. McGinty, Attorney General. Ms D.A. Wookey, Acting Information Commissioner. Ms M.M. QUIRK: I refer to the second dot point under significant issues and trends at page 443. I note the intention to introduce privacy legislation. What is the time frame for that? Mr J.A. McGINTY: Priority has been given to introducing the state privacy legislation, hopefully, before Christmas. Obviously it is quite significant legislation, but we can learn from the legislation that has been introduced in a number of states and the existing federal legislation. It is hoped that it will be in the Parliament this year. The appropriation was recommended. Division 31: Western Australian Electoral Commission, $2 839 000 - Mr A.P. O’Gorman, Chairman. Mr J.A. McGinty, Minister for Electoral Affairs. Mr W.M. Gately, Acting Electoral Commissioner. Mr G. Harrington, Manager, Business Services. Ms M.M. QUIRK: I refer to page 506, major initiatives for 2005-06. It is noted that there will be a new joint enrolment arrangement with the commonwealth. What is the reason for doing that and how is it progressing? Mr W.M. Gately: The joint enrolment arrangement exists with the commonwealth. It is an arrangement between the Governor and Governor-General. It allows a single enrolment form to be used in this state, but it will enable electors to come onto the federal and state rolls and also be involved in local government elections. The commonwealth has insisted on a new arrangement, which we have been negotiating with it for the past 18 months. The arrangement will be underpinned by a memorandum of understanding, which will give greater definition to our respective roles and obligations in maintaining the state and commonwealth rolls. The arrangement is being refined by parliamentary counsel. I believe it will go before the Governor towards the end of June. Ms M.M. QUIRK: I note the comment that the commonwealth has insisted on this. What is the reason for this insistence? Mr W.M. Gately: The commonwealth, like a lot of agencies, is insisting on its right to recover its costs. This arrangement will put that in place as we will pay an increased rate per elector to have the commonwealth maintain the roll. I add that only Victoria and Western Australia currently maintain their own roll. Ms M.M. QUIRK: There has been some discussion federally that the Australian Electoral Commission has disfranchised many voters. How can we ensure that that does not occur under this arrangement? [4.50 pm] Mr W.M. Gately: The federal government is looking to introduce tighter proof of identity requirements for electoral enrolment. My understanding is that although the state government will not introduce the same measures in the state, it will not stand in the way of the commonwealth. We have met with the Australian Electoral Commission about this matter. There is still a lot of work to be done on the technicalities of requiring proof of identity for electoral enrolment. Mr T.K. WALDRON: The first dot point on page 503 under significant issues and trends refers to the one vote, one value legislation that has now passed through the Parliament and the impact that will have on the commission’s ongoing operations. Before I ask my question, I thank the commission for its high level of cooperation with the Nationals throughout that debate. Has provision been made for the extra resources that the commission will require to undertake the significant task of redrawing the electoral boundaries and address all the implications of the introduction of the legislation? Mr W.M. Gately: The Electoral Commission will need to seek supplementary funding to undertake the redistribution for 2007. That has not yet been done. We anticipate that preliminary work will commence early in 2006 to put in

E140 [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] place, for example, the geographic information systems and to look at manning etc to get ready for that in 2007. I will need to seek supplementary information. Mr T.K. WALDRON: If that is the case, the minister would be aware of that. Can he give an undertaking that that will occur? Mr J.A. McGINTY: Sure. Mr T.K. WALDRON: Can the minister give us an estimate of the amount that would be required? Mr J.A. McGINTY: In 2003 when the last redistribution occurred, the total cost was $1.13 million. We would expect that the total cost of conducting the new redistribution will be in excess of that. Given the extent of the changes, it will be a radical redistribution. I am not sure whether that will be reflected in additional costs, but it has been indicated that although that redistribution will occur in the first half of 2007 and therefore is beyond the scope of this budget, some preliminary lead-up work will need to commence from the beginning of 2006, which is the period covered by this budget. As soon as the proposal is formulated, I will support it going to the Treasurer. Given the size of the task, it is something that everyone would want to run as smoothly as possible. The answer to the member’s question is, yes, I am happy to support that. Mrs C.A. MARTIN: I refer to the second dot point under major initiatives for 2005-06 on page 506. With the commonwealth having management of the electoral roll, who will keep it accountable to ensure that it does not use the excuse of “tyranny of distance” to disfranchise people from being on the roll? There is evidence to suggest that between 10 and 30 per cent of indigenous people who are eligible to be on the roll are not actually on the roll. When I have raised that issue in the past, the excuse has been the tyranny of distance, the mobility of Aboriginal people and seasonable variables. Who will be watching to ensure that the roll reflects the population variable statistics? Mr J.A. McGINTY: I will ask Commissioner Gately to respond, but by way of introduction I advise that I have on two occasions written to the federal government about this matter. This poses a challenge, particularly for indigenous communities in remote parts of Western Australia. I am aware of ongoing criticism about the federal approach of sending a letter and, if it is returned, using that as the basis for taking an elector off the electoral roll. That should not be the criterion used in the remote parts of Western Australia, because it will result in the disfranchisement of literally thousands of people. That is the sort of issue that has been taken up with the federal government. I am sure the acting commissioner will do his best to ensure that that does not become the basis for taking people off the roll. That might be appropriate in the Perth suburban setting, but it is not appropriate in a remote community setting. Mr Gately might be able to add to that. Mr W.M. Gately: In relation to the joint roll arrangement, as I mentioned, we have established a memorandum of understanding with the office of the Australian Electoral Commission in Perth. We meet twice a year in a consultative group. Part of the key performance indicators in that MOU is to look very carefully at remote and rural enrolments. Ultimately, it will be up to me, or whoever is the commissioner, to make sure that the AEC is held accountable for that enrolment, that our strategies to improve the enrolment are in place and that we have the right number of people on the roll. Mrs C.A. MARTIN: I just want to know whether I could have Halls Creek and Fitzroy Crossing back in my electorate when the redistribution is done, please. Mr J.A. McGINTY: Commissioner Gately is only one of three people who will make that decision. Mrs C.A. MARTIN: There is nothing wrong with giving it a plug. The CHAIRMAN (Mr A.P. O’Gorman): If the minister could do that for the member, we would all be putting in our special requests! Mr M.J. COWPER: I refer to the section - I cannot find it at the moment - that deals with the interpretation of communities of interest. What are the communities of interest? Mr J.A. McGINTY: I am not sure of the context in which the question is posed. Mr M.J. COWPER: It is an open-ended question. I will try to find the spot. The CHAIRMAN: We will move to the member for Wagin, because we are pressed for time. Mr T.K. WALDRON: I refer to the same dot point on page 503 dealing with one vote, one value and changing the boundaries. The commissioner referred to the change of boundaries for the last election when the Shire of Bridgetown was split, which affected my electorate. I understand that could happen again and may even happen on more occasions at the next redrawing. Will the commissioner look at some of the ramifications that arose in that situation when he is doing the boundaries for the next cut-up? I have spoken to some of the people in that area about the confusion that occurred. Will the commissioner take that into account when he splits part of a town? Mr J.A. McGINTY: I know that the member thinks that city electorates are all very small, but in my own electorate of Fremantle I have three split local government authorities. Part of the City of Cockburn, part of the City of Melville and [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E141 part only of the City of Fremantle constitutes the state electorate of Fremantle. It is not necessarily desirable, but it is not uncommon that that should occur. The commissioners will be required to operate, in a sense, under tighter arrangements, because the current deviation allowable under the legislation is 15 per cent. That will come down, and in future, a 10 per cent variation from the quota will be allowable. That will make it tighter, so there will be greater emphasis on numbers, perhaps at the expense of communities of interest. The appropriation was recommended. [5.00 pm] Division 3: Premier and Cabinet - Service 6, Management of the Constitutional Centre Programs, $1 241 000; Service 7, Promotion and Support of Citizenship and Multiculturalism in Western Australia, $3 417 000 - Dr S.C. Thomas, Chairman. Mr R.C. Kucera, Minister for Citizenship and Multicultural Interests. Ms S. Jackson, Chief of Staff, Office of the Minister for Citizenship and Multicultural Interests. Ms L. De Mel, Executive Director, Office of Multicultural Interests. Dr C. Gillgren, Director, Citizens and Civics Unit. Ms J.A. Hogben, Executive Director, Office for Seniors Interests and Volunteering, Department for Community Development. Mr G. Yell, Director, Financial Services, Office for Seniors Interests and Volunteering, Department for Community Development. The CHAIRMAN: This estimates committee will be reported by Hansard staff. The daily proof Hansard will be published at 9.00 am tomorrow morning. The estimates committee’s consideration of the estimates will be restricted to discussion of those items for which a vote of money is proposed in the consolidated fund. This is the prime focus of the committee. While there is scope for members to examine many matters, questions need to be clearly related to a page number, item, program or amount within the volumes in preface to the question. For example, members are free to pursue performance indicators that are included in the budget statements while there remains a clear link between the questions and the estimates. It is the intention of the Chairman to ensure that as many questions as possible are asked and answered and that both questions and answers are short and to the point. The minister may agree to provide supplementary information to the committee, rather than asking that the question be put on notice for the next sitting week. For the purpose of following up the provision of this information, I ask the minister to clearly indicate to the committee which supplementary information he agrees to provide and I will then allocate a reference number. If supplementary information is to be provided, I seek the minister’s cooperation in ensuring that it is delivered to the committee clerk by 17 June 2005, so that members may read it before the report and third reading stages. If the supplementary information cannot be provided within that time, written advice is required of the day by which the information will be made available. Details in relation to supplementary information have been provided to both members and advisers and accordingly I ask the minister to cooperate with those requirements. I caution members that if a minister asks that a matter be put on notice, it is up to the member to lodge the question on notice with the clerk’s office. Only supplementary information that the minister agrees to provide will be sought by 17 June 2005. I propose to begin with division 3, services 6 and 7. I seek the guidance of the committee as to whether it wants to approach these matters individually or en masse. Mr T.K. WALDRON: What are we dealing with? The CHAIRMAN: We are beginning with service 6 on page 87 of volume 1, division 3, the Department of the Premier and Cabinet, the management of the Constitutional Centre program. There being no indication, we will proceed with service 6. Service 6: Management of the Constitutional Centre Programs, $1 241 000. The appropriation was recommended. Service 7: Promotion and Support of Citizenship and Multiculturalism in Western Australia, $3 417 000 - Mr P.W. ANDREWS: I refer the minister to page 90, where the last dot point of major initiatives for 2005-06 reads - The Department will support emerging African communities by mapping the services required . . . I have an interest in multicultural affairs. I ask the minister whether there has been a change in the profile of people coming into our community, particularly through the humanitarian program; and, if so, what services are being offered? In other words, has there been a change in the nature of services being offered in accordance with a change in profile? Mr R.C. KUCERA: These are programs that we conduct in conjunction with the federal government. The federal government chooses the migrants who enter Western Australia and they come in under a number of major categories,

E142 [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] one of which is skilled migration and another is humanitarian. There certainly have been considerable changes to the demographics of the humanitarian program. Until 1995 the overwhelming majority of people coming into Western Australia were from Europe and Asia. In that year no African country was among the top 12 countries for humanitarian entrants. In 2004-05 that has changed. The overwhelming majority of people now entering the country, in particular Western Australia, are from the Horn of Africa. Eight of the top 12 countries for migrants last year were African. Many humanitarian entrants have been in refugee camps for a considerable time. The nature of the services relating to settlement, health, education and so on that apply to migrants are the same as they have always been. However, the onus of providing services for this group falls on the state government. Essentially, we do not get notification of what the needs of these new arrivals will be until they have arrived. There has been a huge increase in the demand to provide them with health and education services in particular, as well as housing. There is no doubt that this is cost shifting from the federal government to the state governments. I raised this matter four weeks ago with the Minister for Immigration and Multicultural and Indigenous Affairs, Senator Vanstone, but I did not receive much of a response. Frankly, I do not believe the commonwealth government is carrying its share of responsibility for the provision of services for new settlers. Service provision for this cohort is being hampered. I have no doubt that unless there is a change in attitude from the federal government, some of the services will start to come under enormous pressure. I will continue to put pressure on the federal government to provide additional resources in this area. The nature of the people who are arriving must be matched with the housing that is made available, the skills that are required and the health services that need to be provided. As I said, some people have arrived in Australia after spending considerable lengths of time - often many years - in refugee camps. That is particularly true of the people who arrive from Sudan. They have major needs. The nature of the service that is required has not changed but the pressure that is now being brought to bear on the services that the state governments provide is enormous. I urge every member, regardless of his or her politics, to ensure that the federal government assists in the provision of those services. [5.10 pm] Mr P.W. ANDREWS: Am I right in assuming that the responsibility for planning for these settlement services is borne by the state government rather than the federal government? Mr R.C. KUCERA: It is a mixture. I will ask one of my advisers to verify that. The planning for those who come here is essentially a commonwealth issue. Once they hit the ground, it becomes an issue for us. Mr P.W. ANDREWS: Are the settlement services an impost on the state? Mr R.C. KUCERA: At an officer-to-officer level on the ground, there is a considerable amount of interaction but there is very little consultation regarding the placement of different groups who arrive in Australia between the commonwealth government and the state governments at the political level. It is not easy to plan for that. There is not a great deal of understanding of the numbers of people who arrive here or of their specific needs. For instance, often a male partner will speak English but neither his partner nor his children will. For example, the Nollamara Primary School is conducting four separate English-as-a-second-language classes to support people from Sudan. Many of those children cannot read or write their own language, let alone English. Enormous pressure is being placed on those areas. The federal government is being short-sighted. If the children were educated and were taught to read and write as quickly as possible, they would become ambassadors for their families and a link between the family and the community. Ms L. De Mel: Quite a lot of services are provided by the federal government. However, the federal government’s main service provision is to refer the new arrivals to state service providers. Either due to a lack of resources or the unavailability of skills, the state providers are unable to provide the necessary services. For example, the general practitioners who are currently practising are not skilled in the provision of the complex services required by humanitarian entrants. Currently there is no push for the federal government to rethink the Medicare benefits it provides for this issue because GPs do not want to provide services to a complex client. Most GPs are not willing to take on the new immigrants because their cases are so complex and are beyond the skills of many practising GPs. That is just one issue which is being dealt with and which was discussed at the ministerial council. A working party will look at how to better address those types of issues. Mr P.W. ANDREWS: Do the same concerns apply to education and health? Ms L. De Mel: Yes, I just used health as an example. Mr R.C. KUCERA: Exactly. I will continue to use that example. The average consultation between a GP and a patient takes between three and seven minutes. A new arrival from Sudan, for example, will present at the GP surgery with complex health issues, such as malaria, and a consultation could take up to 30 or 40 minutes. The practicality is that some doctors are reluctant to commit themselves to devoting that amount of time to a patient when they can get paid the same amount for treating a patient in seven minutes. An issue that was raised with the minister - this is what the task force will look at - is whether the Medicare arrangements can be made more flexible to accommodate these newly arrived people. Another difficulty is the ability for the government to provide translators, who are expensive and not easily obtained. It is difficult enough to find translators and medical interpreters, let alone to find qualified translators from Sudan, Ethiopia, Chad and other North African countries. That is becoming increasingly difficult. The [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E143 issue is how to keep applying pressure to the federal government to alleviate that when the attitude of the current immigration minister is that it is the states’ problem and they should get on with it. It is creating some issues for us in that regard. Mr J.E. McGRATH: I refer to the fifth dot point under major achievements for 2004-05 on page 89 of the Budget Statements. It is stated that cabinet endorsed the charter of multiculturalism based on the principles of democratic pluralism. Pardon my ignorance, minister, but what is democratic pluralism? Mr R.C. KUCERA: I have my own version, but I will give the member the official one. Ms L. De Mel: The steering committee which developed the draft charter before it went to cabinet and which engaged in statewide consultation considered that cultural pluralism was no longer adequate to address the issues of people from ethnic backgrounds because issues such as race and colour play a part also. Therefore, democratic pluralism means all sorts of differences; they are not necessarily confined to cultural pluralism. Mr P.D. OMODEI: I refer to the heading “Service 7: Promotion and Support of Citizenship and Multiculturalism in Western Australia” and to the total cost of services on page 88 of the Budget Statements. It seems to me that despite what the minister has said, the budget for the department will be reduced this year from the actual of $3.5 million last year to about $3.4 million this year. Will the minister explain the income that appears on the second line and also the adjustments? Given that the chief executive officer has just said that quite a lot of the services are provided by the commonwealth government, will the minister outline what are those services? Mr R.C. KUCERA: Does the member mean the services that are provided by the commonwealth? Mr P.D. OMODEI: Yes. Mr R.C. KUCERA: It has already been said that most of those services are referral services such as Centrelink and other programs that refer people to the state government to provide on-the-ground services. I will elaborate on that. I will begin by answering the first part of the member’s question. Excluding the pertinent figures for the total cost of services, respectively $3.165 million and $3.064 million, there is an estimated variance of $101 000. The estimated actual figures include the carryover funding from 2003-04 of $108 000. There has been no cut in the budget. It is simply that the actuals for last year’s budget, 2004-05, shows the amount of carryover funding from the previous year. The budget has not changed. Mr P.D. OMODEI: I am looking at page 88. I see what the minister means. That is the actual amount for 2003-04. It is currently the 2005-06 financial year. I am comparing the 2005-06 budget estimate with the estimated actual of 2004- 05, which shows a reduction of about $100 000. Mr R.C. KUCERA: We are not expecting any carryover funding in 2004-05; therefore, it balances out. The additional figures are carryover figures. There is no carryover amount in this year’s budget. Mr P.D. OMODEI: It seems to me as though the budget is being reduced. Mr R.C. KUCERA: It may seem that way to the member, but I am telling him that it is not. Mr P.D. OMODEI: By way of supplementary information, will the minister provide a detailed list of the services provided by the commonwealth government? Mr R.C. KUCERA: I am not sure whether we have a role with the commonwealth government. Perhaps the Deputy Leader of the Opposition should direct that request at another agency. I will ask whether information about those types of services can be provided. They certainly can be provided. [5.20 pm] The CHAIRMAN: Does the minister agree to provide that as supplementary information? Mr R.C. KUCERA: Yes, if the member tells me exactly what he wants and which services he wants a list of. Mr P.D. OMODEI: The executive director said that quite a lot of services are provided by the commonwealth. I just want to know what they are. The CHAIRMAN: The minister is happy to provide that. [Supplementary Information No B3.] Mr R.C. KUCERA: I will just qualify that so that the executive director knows what must be provided. Ms L. De Mel: The specific reference was to humanitarian entrants, not to people coming in through the skills program or any other program such as the family reunion program. The specific reference I made was to the African entrants who come in through the humanitarian program. Mr P.D. OMODEI: Obviously, they come from a lot of different countries, such as the Horn of Africa and the Sudan, as the minister mentioned. Can we have details of those, because it seems to be quite a large demographic that is coming into Western Australia?

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The CHAIRMAN: The minister has agreed to provide that as supplementary information. Mr R.C. KUCERA: Yes, but that is only in relation to the humanitarian services. The CHAIRMAN: I believe that is understood. Mr T.K. WALDRON: I refer the minister to the sixth dot point of the major initiatives for 2005-06 on page 90, which states - A framework for reporting on the implementation of the Charter of Multiculturalism will be developed and an advisory committee to Government on multicultural interests established. When will that advisory committee be established? Are there criteria for how that advisory committee will be formulated? In other words, how will the selection of members of that committee take place? Mr R.C. KUCERA: My understanding is that it grew out of the charter that was approved in 2004 as public policy. The proposal is just about ready to be given to me for endorsement. The advisory council will have a dual advisory role and reporting role. The advisory council will be responsible for developing a framework, as we said. My understanding is that four of the members and the chair will be appointed by the minister and drawn from appropriate areas, and a further six members will be appointed in consultation with the communities. It is an advisory council with a total of 11 members. A chair and four members will be appointed by us, and six will be drawn from - Mr T.K. WALDRON: It is a fair balance. Mr R.C. KUCERA: One of the things we are trying to do is to bring some balance to that council. Mr T.K. WALDRON: That was the point of my question. Mr R.C. KUCERA: The nature of the people who are coming into the country is changing. Essentially, until now advisory councils have been somewhat narrow in their context. This recommendation was made as a result of that charter to see whether we can broaden the council. I am told that we have 190 groups at the moment. I know that I was dealing with 118 recently. Mr T.K. WALDRON: Good luck getting the right balance. Mr R.C. KUCERA: It is difficult, of course. However, if we look at South East Asia, Europe and now the Horn of Africa, it gives us an opportunity to bring a reasonably balanced group together. Mr J.E. McGRATH: I refer to page 90. I guess I could go to any one of those strategies that the department is trying to put in place. What is the experience with integration of people from the various multicultural groups who are coming to Western Australia? Are we finding, as in other parts of the world, that they are still not integrating with our local communities? Will this body be striving to get more integration with the local communities? Mr R.C. KUCERA: Firstly, I think a better word is inclusion, rather than integration, because many of these communities will have their own cultures forever, and so they should. That is the wonderful adventure called multiculturalism. The member sitting alongside the member for South Perth comes from an Italian background. My father was a Czech. We still retain parts of our culture, even though at the end of the day we are Australian. The whole idea of this is to make sure that those people can keep their cultures, but at the same time pick up the nature of the Australian society. We talked earlier about the pressures that are on us for services. That pressure in itself creates tensions in the various communities, and those tensions are recognised. All these strategies, as we work through them, are essentially a tool to try to deal with those tensions as they arise. Every new wave of migration has its problems. We were informed by the minister that in the next 12 months we will see an unprecedented level of migration to Australia - levels that we have never seen before. With the increase in skilled migration and the increase in humanitarian migration, my understanding is that something like 100 000 people will enter Australia over the next 12 months. In fact, it is more than that. I am now told that the program planning range is 130 000 to 140 000. There will be 97 500 under the skilled migration program, 42 000 under the family migration program and 12 500 under the humanitarian migration program. We were informed by the minister that the vast majority of those will come from the Horn of Africa. However, that could change overnight. For instance, when there was trouble with the Bosnians in the former Republic of Yugoslavia, virtually overnight we were faced with an influx of people from different countries. However, as I said, on an officer-to-officer level, there is tremendous cooperation to make sure that these things can be put in place, and these are all tools to deal with that. Mr J.E. McGRATH: Given that prognosis of higher levels of citizenship numbers and multiculturalism in Western Australia, does that mean that down the track the government will have to look at increasing substantially the budget we have this year of $3.4 million? Mr R.C. KUCERA: I would always like more money, of course. However, basically most of these funds are for the design of services, not necessarily the delivery of services. I will pass that over to Leela De Mel. Ms L. De Mel: Most of the services, such as health services, will be provided by the mainstream agencies. The Office of Multicultural Interests does not really have the capacity to do that. We work with the service providers to get the [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E145 appropriate services provided; that is, the Department of Education and Training, the Department of Health and the Department for Community Development - the main departments that directly provide services to the increased group of people who are coming in. Mr R.C. KUCERA: Part of the charter of multiculturalism makes that point. It is not about having a separate unit that deals with multiculturalism; it is about dealing with the issue throughout government and making sure that all the mainstream services do that. However, that makes us the prey of the federal government, which realises that we supply health services, education services and everything else. All we ask for is a fair balance and a fair recognition of those needs and services. Mr P.W. ANDREWS: I go back to the major initiatives on page 90. The second last dot point states - The ‘Countering Racism in Education: Anti-Racism Planning and Evaluation Tool’ for Western Australian Primary and Secondary Schools will be finalised . . . I start by saying that I believe our school system handles multiculturalism very well. However, we are also looking at extending the age at which kids leave school to 16 or 17. There will obviously be greater opportunities for kids to be at TAFE and so on. Is there the potential to extend this program into the TAFE setting? Mr R.C. KUCERA: The schools anti-racism tool that is referred to in that dot point is really designed for primary and secondary schools at this stage. The tool is linked to core values, underpinning principles and overarching outcomes for the curriculum framework. There will be a meeting of the educational steering committee later this year, which will seek endorsement of all the committee members. In fact, I think that meeting may have taken place prior to the estimates. At this stage the tool is a pilot. It is looking at the second semester of the school year. The final tool will be made available to schools generally. I understand that this particular structure is aimed at primary and secondary schools. It is not yet designed to move into those training areas. If there is a need for that, obviously I will look at the issue. At this stage, it is a pilot that is aimed at primary and secondary schools. [5.30 pm] Ms L. De Mel: It is very much based on the schools’ curriculum framework at this stage, so this particular tool will not be suitable for TAFE. Once this is finalised and implemented, there might be a case to be made. Mr P.W. ANDREWS: It is focusing at the lower secondary level rather than the equivalent of years 11 and 12. Mr R.C. KUCERA: One hopes that that would then start to work through. Mr P.W. ANDREWS: Perhaps we can keep an eye on it for future development. Mr R.C. KUCERA: The member has raised a good point. We have not yet had any evidence that there are issues with training in the TAFE area. Most of it has so far been confined to a high school level. This is not the only tool. The police department is working in schools with this program, and the Department of Education and Training has programs that complement this program. This is really to assist them with some of the other issues. Mr T.K. WALDRON: I refer to the second last dot point of the major achievements for 2004-05 on page 89. It states that an across-government working group on ethnic children and youth at risk has been established to identify issues of risk for ethnic youth and ways of addressing those risks. What were some of the issues that it identified, and did it come up with ways of addressing them? I am interested in how the ethnic advisory group assisted in that process. Mr R.C. KUCERA: I will ask Ms De Mel to answer that question. Ms L. De Mel: The ethnic youth advisory group was established only late last year. We have done quite a lot of work with it. It will run two forums in two weeks with a broad group of people to identify some of the issues. The work was put on hold with the election, even though the advisory committee was established in late 2004. We are only now working hard with the advisory group. The first forum for ethnic youth will be held on 26 June. The main idea is to not only identify all the issues but also prioritise the major issues. Some of the issues are similar to those of youth generally, but some such as language competence and racism may be peculiar to these young people. Mr T.K. WALDRON: It is actually in progress now? Ms L. De Mel: Yes. Mr R.C. KUCERA: A number of parallel programs are also running all the time. Recently, the Mirrabooka police raised issues with the interaction between Aboriginal communities and the new African communities. There has been some tension between the youngsters. The police, working with the Office of Multicultural Interests and the Northern Suburbs Migrant Resource Centre, put together a weekend seminar and sports program, which worked exceptionally well. This group will help to facilitate those kinds of processes, but it does not mean that this is the only thing that is happening. I note that when the Afghan community went down to Albany - there are quite a few working in Katanning, as the member will know - Mr T.K. WALDRON: I was about to ask whether the minister was aware of the great program in Katanning.

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Mr R.C. KUCERA: Yes, I am, and I was about to refer to that. It is an excellent example of bringing people in and being part of that. This is yet another tool to cope with that. With the unprecedented level of migration next year, all these services will be put under pressure, so our challenge will be to make sure that we can cope with it. Mr P.D. OMODEI: I refer to the major initiatives for 2005-06 on page 90. The third last dot point indicates that the state’s language services policy will be reviewed. Can the minister outline the current status of the state’s language services policy and what achievements he expects from the review? Mr R.C. KUCERA: I will ask Ms De Mel to answer the first part of the question. Ms L. De Mel: We undertook a needs analysis in 2003-04. There were major issues with the relocation of translators and interpreter services to the commonwealth translating and interpreting service in Melbourne. Before embarking on any sort of review, we thought we would do a needs analysis to figure out what were the major issues. Some of them are more perceptions than real issues. One of the major findings was that the language services policy does not include any standards. Because of that, the level of services that clients are getting can vary from department to department and from service provider to service provider. The purpose of the review is to establish some standards within the language services policy so that everybody gets a similar level of service provision. The review has already started and we hope to conclude it by September with a new language services policy. Mr P.D. OMODEI: Obviously that relates to TIS and language translation. What about the program that was provided at local government libraries to teach people languages other than English? The program was introduced many years ago by the state government. I think it was the International Year for Tolerance, and we managed to get some money from the Lotteries Commission. Ms L. De Mel: I am not sure of the status of that program. However, some of the new humanitarian entrants have a low level of literacy, even in their own languages, and it is not appropriate at this stage to embark on that kind of program. That is why there is an urgent push from the service providers to review the language services policy, particularly for interpreter services, because with TIS going, private service providers are now providing these services in Western Australia and it is becoming even more urgent to have standards than it was when TIS provided that service. Mr J.E. McGRATH: I refer to the major achievements for 2004-05 on page 89. The fourth dot point states that the first citizens’ breakfast, hosted by the Governor, was held on Foundation Day as part of a partnership between the department and Celebrate Western Australia to promote citizenship. I note that on Monday, 6 June the government held a descendants’ day ceremony, which was a special ceremony for the descendants of convicts sent to Western Australia. Did the Office of Multicultural Interests sponsor or contribute in any way to this event? Mr R.C. KUCERA: The second citizens’ breakfast was held on the same morning. I attended that event with the Governor, and it was sponsored by the same group. I am not sure about the convicts’ program at Fremantle. I think it was funded by the Department of Housing and Works under Minister Logan, but I am not sure. Certainly, the second citizens’ breakfast was a great success. Mr J.E. McGRATH: Can the minister provide an answer to that question? Mr R.C. KUCERA: I am not sure whether it falls under my portfolio. If it is an issue for my portfolio, I will provide an answer. If it is not, I will make a note and find out which department funded it. [Supplementary Information No B4.] The appropriation was recommended. [5.40 pm] Division 45: Community Development - Service 3, Positive Ageing Policy, $3 778 000; Service 5, Volunteering Policy and Coordination, $1 030 000 - Dr S.C. Thomas, Chairman. Mr R.C. Kucera, Minister for Disability Services; Sport and Recreation; Citizenship and Multicultural Interests; Seniors. Ms J.A. Hogben, Executive Director, Office for Seniors Interests and Volunteering. Mr G. Yell, Director, Financial Services, Office for Seniors Interests and Volunteering. Mr J.E. McGRATH: I refer to page 769. The total amount appropriated to deliver services under the Department for Community Development is $213.97 million. Of that amount, how much goes to the care and social wellbeing of seniors? Mr P.W. ANDREWS: Mr Chairman, I believe that we are on division 45, service 3, which starts on page 778. The CHAIRMAN: It is up to the committee to determine whether it addresses service 5 at the same time. Mr P.W. ANDREWS: The member asked a question on an earlier service. [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E147

The CHAIRMAN: I ask members to address their questions to services 3 or 5. Mr J.E. McGRATH: I can ask the question under service 3 as it is a general question. Mr P.W. ANDREWS: I was not trying to stop the member for South Perth from asking the question; I was simply lost! The CHAIRMAN: I ask the member for South Perth to approach the question under service 3. Mr J.E. McGRATH: I refer to service 3, positive ageing policy, on page 778. The budget estimate for the cost of providing the positive ageing policy in 2005-06 is $3.99 million. How much of the total budget of the Department for Community Development, which includes the positive ageing policy, is allocated to the care and social wellbeing of our seniors? Mr R.C. KUCERA: I ask the adviser to answer that question. Ms J.A. Hogben: It is a general allocation. The Office for Seniors Interests and Volunteering is a policy office. The only direct service it provides as such is the management of the operation of the Seniors Card, which is the state’s project card that recognises and provides concessions to seniors. The office does not directly provide government concessions. Our primary function is the preparation of policy and the management of the Seniors Card. Mr R.C. KUCERA: For instance, if an issue is raised about the rates that seniors pay, the office will advocate on their behalf to the Minister for Local Government and Regional Development. Mr J.E. McGRATH: But it will not come out of the budget of the Office for Seniors Interests and Volunteering. Mr R.C. KUCERA: It will not necessarily come out of our budget. Mr J.E. McGRATH: The same applies to the 50 per cent discount on the cost of ambulance cover. Mr R.C. KUCERA: That is right; it is provided under the Department of Health. The office acts as an advocate ministry for seniors. That support must be focused, because the range of services to seniors is as broad as it is for everybody else. It is really about giving seniors’ groups a voice at the cabinet table. The overall budget really builds on current policies and programs. The mainstream agencies provide in excess of $68 million to promote active ageing. Approximately $300 million is available to support seniors and pensioners with concessions on state and local government services. In 2005-06, approximately $1.4 million in new money will be invested in specific active ageing initiatives. The Office for Seniors Interests and Volunteering will receive $387 000 from that allocation for a range of programs, including a depression awareness program for older people; the elder abuse prevention alliance, which was recently raised in the house by the member for Nedlands and debated at length; the provision of some community linkage officers, particularly in regional areas; and the active ageing scorecard, which is designed to ensure that the office advocates on behalf of seniors so that it is recognised by individual agencies and across government that we are all getting just a little older. Mr J.E. McGRATH: The minister said that $1.4 million had been allocated. Is it true that that amount will be shared between seven agencies? That averages out at roughly $200 000 for each agency. Is that enough money for the seven agencies to do their work? Mr R.C. KUCERA: How long is a piece of string? One can always ask whether it is enough. The member is right. The depression awareness program will be given $130 000, and a research project that links to the major life transition of people aged 65 and over will be given $55 000. The active ageing scorecard, which will evaluate the achievements of the active ageing task force’s vision, has been allotted $50 000. An amount of $40 000 will go towards an active ageing housing initiative, which will research housing options for older people. The office will fund the research and then use the results to advocate on behalf of seniors. Under the local communications and partnering strategy, $450 000 will go to the Department of Local Government and Regional Development to fund initiatives and partnerships with local governments to promote active ageing in communities. Again, we are getting local government to work on behalf of our seniors. A mature workers promotional campaign will be given $50 000. That is an enormous issue for us. I held a budget meeting the other day with the key stakeholders of the Office for Seniors Interests and Volunteering. A lot of money is going into skilled migration and training, and a quarter of the work force is now getting to the stage of considering retirement. Those stakeholders told me that they want to look at flexible employment options for people aged 55 and over. I recently raised this issue with the federal Minister for Ageing. I had a very productive discussion with her. One of the issues I raised with her and which the government will again raise at a federal level is the idea of flexibility in the work force. Why would a person aged 55-plus stay in the work force if that meant he would lose his pension entitlements and his entitlement to a Seniors Card, health card and everything else? We need the federal government to recognise the need for flexibility. The second part of the equation is how to get the employer to realise the need for more flexibility to be built into the workplace. A forum will be held later this year to find out whether that can be achieved. That has been done in nursing. I spoke to a nurse yesterday at the breakfast that the member mentioned. She is 62 and is back in nursing. She is having a great time and earning good money. She is working only 10 hours a week in a public hospital, which is fantastic. We must try to get that kind of flexibility option. Discussions have been held with the major care unions and associations, which are very supportive of the idea of encouraging

E148 [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] skilled workers who are over 55 to either come back to or stay in the work force. A lot of our skill shortages could be addressed if we were able to do that. One important issue is elder abuse prevention. It was raised in the house a week ago. I have already mentioned others, but I will not go through them all. [5.50 pm] Mr P.B. WATSON: I refer to the second dot point on page 780. I notice that money has been allocated to improve the awareness, value and relevance of the Seniors Card, particularly in regional areas. Why is it important to increase the awareness of the value and relevance of the Seniors Card in regional areas? Mr R.C. KUCERA: Many of the concessions that currently apply, particularly for transport, are in the metropolitan area simply because that is where the transport system caters for seniors. I will ask Judy Hogben to talk to that. Ms J.A. Hogben: The Seniors Card is a statewide card. Its take-up rate varies across the state. I think the take-up rate in Albany is, if not the highest, among the highest in the state. Mr P.B. WATSON: It is the highest. Ms J.A. Hogben: In Albany, 80 per cent of seniors eligible for that card have it. It drops off quite significantly in the northern part of Western Australia. In areas such as Halls Creek and Port Hedland the percentage is down to about 11 per cent of eligible seniors who actually have the card. Also, there are not many discount providers there. Obviously that is an issue, because we want all our seniors to take advantage of the card. The office has worked hard this financial year and will do so again in the next financial year to try to bring equity to the card by having more discount providers and more seniors as members. This financial year we have been to Port Hedland, Kununurra, Derby, Broome and Fitzroy Crossing and the results have been quite amazing. We have doubled the number of cardholders and discount providers. By having the cards, seniors are eligible to get the state government concessions that are of significant value to them. That is why we think it is really important to make the card available to all and to go out to regional Western Australia to enable this to happen. Mr R.C. KUCERA: Something like $1 400 worth of concessions and discounts are available through the Seniors Card. It is an excellent idea. However, I get very angry with my mate who works 20 hours a week and gets his crayfishing licence for $16, while I have to pay $38. I will quickly touch on the fact that we have been having discussions with other countries in the region and, indeed, also with one of the large pensioner groups in Italy, members of whom travel to and from here and obviously collect their pensions here. There is no reason why we should not start to form some partnerships with regional nations. At the end of the day, we are part of the Indian Ocean basin and we are looking at trying to establish these kinds of things. On the same subject, last week we ran a very successful training program with the Singapore Association of Elders, the SAE group. It ran a joint training program here for both us and people who live in Singapore. As members know, many Singapore elders now live in Perth with their children and many of them return to Singapore once they have completed their business life here. There is an opportunity for us to get linkages there in relation to the Seniors Card. We are doing great things in this state with the Seniors Card and we are leading the way in Australia. The disappointing part is that we cannot get the other states to have a reciprocal arrangement. We would like that to happen and have been working hard to get that. Mr P.B. WATSON: That was my next question. Mr R.C. KUCERA: I am sorry. I did not mean to jump in there. We are now starting to see whether we can arrange that, particularly with transport, because people like to travel. Mr T.K. WALDRON: I refer to the fourth dot point of the major initiatives for 2005-06 which is listed on page 780 and refers to the establishment of a carers advisory council. It is a good idea. When will it be established and what will be its major role? Will there be country representation on that council to represent issues and circumstances that affect carers in country and more remote areas? Mr R.C. KUCERA: That came about as a result of the passing of the Carers Recognition Act 2004. Already advertisements have been placed in The West Australian, the Sunday Times and community newspapers. So far, the public call has resulted in 48 names being put forward. I understand that is across the state. I will refer this to my adviser. Ms J.A. Hogben: The council is in the process of being formulated. It goes to the Minister for Seniors, who has carriage of the act, and to the same minister in his capacity as Minister for Disability Services, and to the Minister of Health. The Minister for Health needs to be consulted on the composition of the council. It will take a little time. It is important to make sure that there is world representation, not only geographic but also in other aspects that are pertinent and relate to the council. In Western Australia there are over 200 000 carers, which is a huge number. If we organised the financial cost of replacing that care it would come to about $1.93 billion, which is huge. That is why it is important that the act recognises the role of carers, and the council is an important part of that. Also important is the range of initiatives that the office funds to assist carers, such as the 24/7 statewide counselling line that we run through Carers WA. It has taken off and really is important. Forty-eight per cent of the calls come from non-metropolitan Western Australia. [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E149

Mr T.K. WALDRON: Was that 48 per cent? Ms J.A. Hogben: Approximately in the 40s, so it is significant. It is very much not a metro-centric line and it operates 24 hours a day, seven days a week. The after business hours component is run by the crisis care unit. Recently we had that evaluated and, as members would expect from a carers organisation, it was found to be stunningly successful and appreciated. Other organisations are funded, like retreats. Also, we fund through that program the Wanslea grand care initiative, which is the first of its kind in Western Australia. Mr R.C. KUCERA: There is a crossover there with disability services, because much of the funding, particularly for children with disabilities, comes through the disability services sector. No doubt those questions will arise during that section of the estimates. As for the timing of the council, we are fairly close to that. Ms J.A. Hogben: We will be putting up a recommendation to the minister shortly. Mr P.D. OMODEI: I refer to page 780 and also the previous two pages. We certainly appreciate the work done with the Seniors Card in regional Western Australia. It is a great initiative. Obviously the establishment of the carers advisory council, the development of depression awareness and the development of an elder abuse prevention alliance are all very good projects. However, I notice that the budget has decreased by about $100 000. In fact, the number of full-time equivalents has decreased from 29 last financial year to 28 this financial year. If members look at the items under key efficiency indicators on page 779, they will see that all the costs are going up, whether it be the Seniors Card management, the average cost per community engagement or the average cost of policy advice. Given the growing population of aged people - and there is a reference in the Budget Statements to a “Seniors Safety and Crime - A New Outlook” and “A Profile for WA’s Baby Boomers - our future seniors” - does this mean that the positive ageing policy group is getting more efficient or is it working harder? Obviously from these figures the budget is decreasing. Mr R.C. KUCERA: The answer to the member’s last questions is yes. Having worked with them for the past couple of weeks I have found them to be an extremely efficient and hardworking group of people. Mr P.D. OMODEI: The minister acknowledges that the costs are going up, people are getting older and there are more demands on funding but the budget is going down. It does not compute. Mr R.C. KUCERA: My adviser will refer to the financial aspects and then I will say more about it. Ms J.A. Hogben: A number of components are involved, so bear with me if I do not answer them all. As the member referred to the cost of the Seniors Card and how it is going up, I will start with it. We have as an efficiency measure, and it is really very effective as well - The CHAIRMAN: It is now six o’clock and we need to go to the official dinner break. We can come back to that question when we resume at seven o’clock. Mr P.D. OMODEI: Can we get an answer to that question by way of supplementary information? Mr R.C. KUCERA: I am happy to provide that answer straight after the break. The CHAIRMAN: After the dinner break, the committee will commence with an answer to that question. Meeting suspended from 6.00 to 7.00 pm Mr R.C. KUCERA: The adviser has prepared an answer to the question that was asked before the dinner break. Ms J.A. Hogben: The question has a number of parts, so I ask the member to bear with me as I go through some of them. The member referred to the cost of the Seniors Card as outlined on page 779. It appears as though the average cost of providing the Seniors Card for 2005-06 has gone up compared with 2004-05. The member also asked whether there are any efficiencies in the way in which we are operating. The Seniors Card is a good example. We are now producing the Seniors Card every two years rather than every year. We did that in consultation with the seniors themselves. They thought that was highly acceptable. Therefore, in the alternate year, the cost will go down, and the next year it will go up, because that is when we produce the card. It is a more efficient system, and seniors are more than happy to have it done in that way. When we surveyed seniors before and afterwards, they said it was a good idea. The budget allocation for seniors has gone up by one per cent since 2003-04. The difficulty is in the carryovers. That makes it look a bit different than it actually is. We had approximately $300 000 in carryovers into the 2004-05 budget. That inflated the budget for 2004-05 for the positive ageing policy total cost of service. Because of those carryovers, we did not need as much additional new funding for the continuation of the 2001 election commitment initiatives. We also will not have the same amount of carryovers into 2005-06. To cut a long story short, the budget has actually gone up by one per cent. It looks as though we spent significantly more money in 2004-05 than we will be spending in 2005- 06. That is not so. It is just because of the way the budget has been prepared. The CHAIRMAN: The member for Southern River. Mr P.W. ANDREWS: Thank you, Madam Chair, but my question was answered during that discourse. Mr J.E. McGRATH: I refer to page 780. The second dot point under major initiatives for 2005-06 states support and coordinate key stakeholders to consult and develop innovative and accessible housing options for older people. I am interested in this initiative because there are a few senior citizens in my electorate whom we have helped, and are still

E150 [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] trying to help, to get alternative accommodation. Some of them are already in Homeswest accommodation, but, because of changes in their medical situation, they cannot be on the second or third floor and need to be on the ground floor. How is the department dealing with this issue? Is this a real issue in trying to find accommodation for senior people? Mr R.C. KUCERA: Absolutely. It depends on the seniors’ state of health and circumstances, of course. There is a constant toing-and-froing between the state government and the federal government about aged care places, even though, as the member would be aware, some seven years ago the federal government took over the provision of aged care places. The purpose of this initiative is that the Office of Seniors Interests will be working with all of the relevant state government agencies to undertake research and consultation with seniors. It will be consulting with state housing to make sure that we get it to build into its future planning provisions the needs of older people. Two years ago one of my constituents raised with me the need for state housing for seniors to have two bedrooms. For a long time it has been the practice to have just one bedroom. However, a problem arises if the senior needs a carer, or a family member wants to stay over. There is limited aged care housing in the regions and in the country, so many seniors end up living in the city, and they are finding it increasingly difficult to have their family members stay with them. Therefore, a policy is being adopted to provide two bedrooms instead of one for aged care wherever possible. This initiative is essentially a research response to the other government agencies and is the result of advocacy on the part of seniors generally. The Office of Seniors Interests is working constantly with state housing on the issue of aged care housing. Although we do not deal with individual cases - we refer those to state housing - the Office of Seniors Interests provides a toll-free telephone line that is manned by some 30 volunteers between the hours of 9.00 am and 3.00 pm each day. Seniors can telephone that free service and ask virtually any question about government agencies, and that will be followed up directly by the people who are manning that line. That service is also available to any staff in any member’s office who wish to make representations on behalf of seniors. Mr P.B. WATSON: I refer to page 779. The fourth dot point under major achievements for 2004-05 is progressed the development of an active ageing scorecard. What is the active ageing scorecard, and why is it so important? [7.10 pm] Mr R.C. KUCERA: It does not mean we put the target on the member for South Perth’s chest! One of the initiatives that came out of the Active Ageing Taskforce was the idea of a seniors active ageing scorecard. It also fits in with the directions of the World Health Organisations on seniors generally. The World Health Organisation will be partnering us in the development of that initiative, because it was borne out last year at the international conference on gerontology in Spain that Western Australia is now seen as a leader in dealing with seniors interests not just in Australia but around the world. Our people have been invited this year to give a number of papers at the world gerontology conference, as Western Australia is recognised as being among the world leaders on this matter. In measuring success against the scorecard, a series of indicators will measure over five years active ageing among our seniors. I refer to people age 60 years and over, so I am there and you guys opposite are still getting there! The first measure is health and wellbeing, which is a self-assessment of the health status of seniors. Community awareness and participation are the second measures. For example, it considers the extent to which ageing is seen to be a positive and productive stage of life. I mentioned earlier work force participation. The extent of contact with family and friends is also important. All members doorknock and meet a number of lonely people; I refer to people who are removed from the community, and part of the active ageing strategy is to ensure that these people are included in the process. I touched on employment learning. When I was Minister for Peel and the South West, I became aware last year of an extremely successful information technology program called Connect South West. The member for Warren-Blackwood would be aware of it no doubt. Indeed, the previous coalition government may have been involved in setting up that program. Interestingly, the largest number of participants in the program are seniors who are learning to use computers and to connect to the Internet. These values are part of the active ageing scorecard. The extent to which individuals plan for their senior years is also a factor. I mentioned earlier the transition into senior life. Protection and security are other factors. How do we protect seniors, and how do they protect themselves? Those five matters are key issues in dealing with the quality of life of our senior citizens. The scorecard enables the department to obtain information from seniors, and then to benchmark agencies and, indeed, governments on how well they deal with seniors. This may be a model for other parts of the community. Ultimately, a society that strongly supports its seniors in their latter years is essential, especially as there will be an increasing number of seniors during the next 10 years. The appropriation was recommended. Division 47: Disability Services Commission, $248 280 000 - Mrs D.J. Guise, Chairman. Mr R.C. Kucera, Minister for Disability Services. Dr R. Shean, Director General. Mr D. Ramanah, Director, Corporate and Business Services. MR P.D. OMODEI: I refer the minister to the seventh dot point on page 824 of the Budget Statements. The state has long argued that the commonwealth provides only 16 per cent of the disability services budget under the [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E151

Commonwealth State Territory Disability Agreement. Can the minister take us back over how that situation arose? I certainly used the funding arrangement in arguments when I was the responsible minister. When the split of responsibility came about in the early 1990s, the commonwealth assumed responsibility for employment and pensions and the states took over accommodation and services. We always argued that the states took over the administration of accommodation; therefore, we were short-changed in relation to the commonwealth’s contribution somewhere along the line. Can the minister comment in that regard? Also on that page - The CHAIRMAN: One question at a time, Deputy Leader of the Opposition. I will come back for a further question. Mr R.C. KUCERA: I compliment the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, as in his time as the responsible minister he was a great advocate for the disability sector. I am pleased to say that the 14 per cent contribution to WA as a proportion of total commonwealth funding during his time in the portfolio has now increased to 16 per cent. He, the previous minister and I can share a little in the accolades for that funding increase, even if it is only two per cent. Mr P.D. OMODEI: We are not into accolades. Mr R.C. KUCERA: Whether accolades or not, the member remembers from his time as minister that funding is a constant little battle with the commonwealth. I will defer to the director general in a moment. Frankly, this is a highlight budget this year for disability services. The past four years has undoubtedly seen unprecedented growth funding for disability services. The Gallop government is getting on with the job of providing sustained growth funding and underpinning a more inclusive and welcoming community for people with disabilities and their families. How has that come about with the difference between the state and federal budgets? As the Deputy Leader of the Opposition rightly pointed out, the states are delivering services and the commonwealth continues to say it delivers welfare - the issue boils down to that aspect. However, more emphasis needs to be placed on service delivery by the commonwealth as well. As to how that situation has arisen, I pass to the person who probably knows most about it in Dr Ruth Shean. Dr R. Shean: The first commonwealth-state disability agreement, subsequently called the Commonwealth State Territory Disability Agreement, was struck in 1991. The member is correct: it was an administrative agreement only, by which the commonwealth had responsibility for employment and shared responsibility for advocacy, and the states had responsibility for the administration of accommodation, respite care, therapy and joint advocacy. It was never a funding agreement. It was only ever an administrative arrangement. I must make it clear that pensions were never part of the disability services portfolio as they have always been part of the welfare portfolio. That aspect never entered into the 1991 handover. There was a handover in both directions at the time to line up with the administration demarcation. That is where the first funding level was struck. However, it has been acknowledged roundly since then that Western Australia does not get its fair share of commonwealth funding. This state has 10 per cent of the disability population Australia-wide, yet it receives an approximately nine per cent share of total commonwealth funding. A difficulty is that although we are gradually catching up in our share of commonwealth contributions, it is a very slow process. Mr P.D. OMODEI: The fourth dot point from the bottom of page 824 states that changes to the employment criteria by the commonwealth government have resulted in the loss of day options in work placements. It is estimated in the third dot point from the bottom of the page that reforms by the commonwealth government will impose a recurrent cost on the state budget of an extra $7 million by 2007. Mr R.C. KUCERA: Correct. Mr P.D. OMODEI: Is that covered at all by the bilateral agreement? Did we pick up any money to compensate for the loss of the $7 million? Mr R.C. KUCERA: I ask Dr Shean to respond. Dr R. Shean: We made a joint submission on the bilateral agreement on this issue. It was disappointing because we hoped to receive support, or a continuation of support, for two programs. One was the learning for work program as part of our post-school options funding. This program provided a training component for kids who left school to seek employment. We approached the commonwealth government to see whether it would fund the program. It was happy to do so in principle; however, when it came to the crunch, it decided not to provide funding. We have been advised since then by the Department of Consumer and Employment Protection that the commonwealth has cut post-school options funding also. Although it is not a lot of money at $77 000 per annum, it is critical money at a time when the federal government is talking about the importance of getting people with disabilities into the work force. We can add to that the problems of the increased working hours that people must work and the fact that employment agencies are taking people with lower support needs rather than higher support needs. Things are complex. One that will be of particular interest to the member for Warren-Blackwood is the Manjimup alternative-to-employment service. We had hoped to be able to do a transition with the commonwealth with Activ Foundation services elsewhere. At this stage, it has cut the funding from one service and not injected into another. We are ever optimistic that reason will prevail and that the funding will be reinstated by virtue of the transition in Manjimup. [7.20 pm] Mr R.C. KUCERA: The anxiety that is being felt as a result of the commonwealth’s changes is enormous. Not a day goes by when we do not have contact of some kind with parents or people who are involved in the alternative work

E152 [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] programs. I met with Senator Patterson as a matter of urgency when she was in Western Australia and she assures me that it will not affect those who are receiving pensions. However, it will certainly affect the new ones. On a daily basis more people are picking up pensions. My great concern - I expressed it strongly to Senator Patterson - is that it is all very well to come up with an ideological position but the rhetoric must be backed up with support for the employer. That is important, because the skills shortage will catch up with us. There is no doubt that that will happen in the next few years as these areas are placed under more and more pressure. The forward estimates reflect our commitment to people with disabilities and their families. The overall funding allocation to disability services in 2005-06 has increased by $16.7 million. Of this, $13.3 million will be for new services. We are doing our bit and making our contribution. In the supported accommodation area alone, $10.7 million has been allocated as additional funding. The matching funding - if I can call it that - from the federal government is $490 000. There is a range of areas in which the partnership is simply not being reflected by the federal government. It is important that the member for Warren-Blackwood raised the history of how we arrived at this stage. However, it is probably time that that history be revisited. Certainly as we head into the next bilateral negotiations, I will make sure that it is absolutely on the table. Mr P.D. OMODEI: Send me over, minister! Mr R.C. KUCERA: I am more than happy for the member for Warren-Blackwood to talk to his federal counterparts. I have read about some of his previous negotiations. I assure the member that I will be just as robust as he was at the negotiations. That is a good point. There is absolutely no reason that this issue cannot be raised with the member’s federal counterparts. The Minister for Ageing has committed to work with issues that cross over from the area of ageing to disabilities. I am more than happy to hold hands with the member for Warren-Blackwood and to talk to his party about this issue. This is an issue for us all. I do not like playing politics with this issue. Mr T.K. WALDRON: I refer the minister to the first dot point under major initiatives on page 827 of the Budget Statements, which states that accommodation will be provided to an additional 25 people who are the sons or daughters of carers aged over 70 years. That is good. Will this allocation be made on an as-needs basis or in a particular area? Will it take place in the metropolitan area or across the state? Mr R.C. KUCERA: It will take place on an individual-needs basis across the state. Most of that money has already been rolled out. Although every year there is a bit for supporting services, there is never enough money. We were delighted this year to receive this additional funding from Treasury. When the capacity arises to fund such things, wherever possible the money should be allocated to the areas with the most need. I will refer to Dr Shean because this year there are changes in the way that that money is being allocated to pick up some of the vacancies that have been referred to in previous years. These are new places; they are not top-ups. It is my understanding that they do not recognise vacancies. When a vacancy occurs, it is filled. These places are in addition to those vacancies; it is actual growth. Mr T.K. WALDRON: Where are those places being allocated? Mr R.C. KUCERA: I will defer to Dr Shean. Dr R. Shean: The allocation has been through the combined applications process through which individual families approach us and lodge funding requests. For those over 70 years of age, we looked at those who had remained unfunded at the end of the last round and funded all of those. I cannot advise the member of actual postcodes because that would breach our confidentiality arrangements with the families. However, the accommodation support has been allocated right around the state. As the minister said, we have a different funding approach this year. We have 51 places over and above those that we had last year. We have 134 places this year. Although we had 103 places last year, that comprised 83 new places and 20 vacancies. This year we have 109 places available to any person on the list. The 25 places were sent out in the past few weeks to those over 70 years of age. Over and above that, we expect to have some 20 vacancies. There are 134 new places, including for the children of 70-year-old carers and the 20 vacancies over and above that. They are all allocated on an as-needs, or critical-need, basis throughout the state. Mr T.K. WALDRON: How do people identify whether they fall into that category? Mr R.C. KUCERA: People with disabilities generally work with a local area coordinator. For example, there is a local area coordinator in the member for Wagin’s area with whom people can work. When I went to Albany recently I met with a fantastic group of people who do an enormous amount of work. Dr Shean can answer the question about the criteria. People go through their local area coordinator. Obviously when a need arises, the situation moves on from there. If a person needs this type of support and it is not available, a range of other support services can be provided. For instance, 500 families will receive respite and family support as a result of the new output funding this year. Further, 130 people will receive access to post-school options or alternatives to employment through state funding. The member can see how important it is that we do not lose the $70 000-odd that comes from the federal government. A further 670 people have access to therapy support, aids and equipment and 250 families will be able to access local area coordination. An extension of existing services will be brought on board this year. [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E153

Dr J.M. WOOLLARD: The fourth dot point under major initiatives for 2005-06 on page 834 of the Budget Statements deals with a statewide companion card, an issue that is dear to my heart. I appreciate the fact that next week I will receive a full briefing about the introduction of the companion card. I also appreciate that it is being administered differently by ACROD in the eastern states. Will the minister advise what additional services may be included? I am not sure whether a cost will be associated with the card - I know the government is thinking about it but I do not know whether the minister will say so tonight. Will the minister provide some details about the card so that I can discuss them with the many people who have lobbied me on a constant basis? Mr R.C. KUCERA: It is intended that wherever possible the companion card be self-funding in the long term. The commission’s funding is geared toward the provision of essential services. That is why there will be a further 25 aged carers in the program this year. The money has gone directly to that. Dr J.M. WOOLLARD: The minister said wherever possible. [7.30 pm] Mr R.C. KUCERA: In short, there will be a charge for the card. However, that charge will be as minimal and as affordable as possible. Our view is that the fee will be set by the contracted group. In this case, those contracts have not yet been signed, but my understanding is that if the final contractor has not been selected then it is very close to being selected. As with the ACROD process for disability parking, for which a small fee is charged, there will be a small charge for the companion card. The long-term viability of the project is contingent upon the take-up rate for the card, provided that, like the Seniors Card, we can get people to pick up on the card and offer discounts and all the sporting bodies come on board. Most of them are already on board. The level of the membership fee has still to be established, but a key criterion on which I have been insisting, and on which the previous minister insisted, is that it be affordable and represent value for money. If we cannot set a fee that is value for money, then the matter will have to be revisited. Already I am seeing that, for instance, if the carer were able to get into Subiaco Oval on two occasions for the football, the kind of fee I am talking about will probably cover those two entries. If that applies to major sporting venues for the whole year, and also offers the kind of discounts that the Seniors Card does, we will find it is value for money. In answer to the member’s question, we are almost there; we are just waiting for the contracts to be signed. There will be a small fee, but we have not set a price yet. I understand that there are some rollout issues with the card that will take some time. Dr Shean will speak on those. Dr R. Shean: Because the minister has been so insistent on value for money, I can say that the contract has gone to ACROD Western Australia, which has a lot of experience running permit systems with its parking system. We have asked ACROD to address this task in two stages, the first being the recruitment of sponsors and participants, so that by the time the card is ready to be rolled out people can see exactly what the value for money is. The minister felt that it would not be acceptable for us to sell the nebulous concept of a card without having the detail of what it would buy. The first stage is the recruitment of participant organisations into the system. Once that has been done, we will be looking at making the card available. One of the aspects we are focusing on is a regional element. Our local area coordinators throughout the state are building up a matrix of the type of agencies in the bush that can be approached to make sure that it is value for money, not just for people in Perth, but for people right around the State. Mr R.C. KUCERA: There is a point there that local members can take up, both with the companion card when it is introduced and the existing Seniors Card; that is, that the more they can sell the concept in their own areas for providers of services to pick up on these programs - I think a discount asked for is 10 per cent on goods and services - then the more we can grow the services being offered to people with disabilities. The more attractive the card becomes, and the more affordable it is, the better the value for money. Dr J.M. WOOLLARD: The minister said before that he expected the card to offer more than the card that is available in the eastern states. Will this link the services the minister is expecting to attach to the card, and will there be more services attached to it? Mr R.C. KUCERA: I am not aware of what the other states offer, but our experience with the Seniors Card in Western Australia has been that the take-up rate has been quite good compared with other states. In fact, it is better than the other states in the concessions and other things that it offers. That is all I am saying in terms of the companion card offering more. However, there is no guarantee of that. That is why, in the discussions we have had about the rollout, we would like to get some indication of the take-up rate before we put the card into the community, so that we know that it is value for money. We will then have some degree of influence with ACROD to say what we believe is an affordable fee for the card. Dr J.M. WOOLLARD: The minister gave the impression that, in certain circumstances, the fee might be waived. That was my understanding. Mr R.C. KUCERA: I do not recall having said that. Dr J.M. WOOLLARD: From the minister’s speech earlier, I got the impression that if there were strenuous or difficult circumstances for families then they may be able to apply to have the fee waived.

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Mr R.C. KUCERA: I do not recall ever having raised that. What I said was that we are trying to make the fee as affordable as possible for everybody. However, I do not recall, in any of the briefings that I have had, that there is any variation for people who cannot afford the card. Those kinds of issues come up all the time with any concessional arrangement. As Dr Shean has indicated, of the families we have spoken to, only one has indicated that it wanted the card to be free. Something of value is valued. Most of the families who have been consulted throughout this process have said that they are prepared and expect to pay some fee for this card. For those that are not aware of it, it is a card that allows carers to accompany a person with disabilities entering premises or receiving discounts, or to simply be part of the process of looking after somebody with disabilities. Dr Shean will make two final points. Dr R. Shean: Two points are quite critical. The first is that families, by and large, have said to us that they believe our priorities should be essential services for families. This is an add-on, although certainly a valuable one. They believe that our first priority should be putting money into those families in critical need. Most families we have consulted are supportive of the notion of a small fee. The other point is that the participant organisations themselves support a small fee. The view is that if the card is taken seriously, and people apply for it seriously, then it will provide a community service. They do not like the idea of a card that is available to 250 000 Western Australians, and exploits their services. They want a card that is taken seriously. Their view is that a small fee means that it is a more serious proposition for them, and they are more likely to come on board. Mr R.C. KUCERA: In many instances it is no different from the ACROD services that are already supplied, and for which there is a small administration fee. We think we should be able to roll this out later on this year. Mr T.R. SPRIGG: My question is relevant to ACROD. I refer to the service and appropriation summary on page 825. ACROD parking, I understand, is administered by the Disability Services Commission, and yet I cannot see a line item in either the income or the expenditure - both would be associated with it - referring to parking. This would roll on to the new companion card as well. Is it involved in some of those other service deliveries? Mr R.C. KUCERA: My understanding is that ACROD is totally self-funding. Obviously, we support it as an organisation, but not in a financial sense. Dr R. Shean: The parking system has nothing to do with the Disability Services Commission. It is entirely a fee-for- service system that stands on its own. We provide about $600 000 funding to ACROD in a financial year. That will not be found in our budget statements but it is in our annual report. It includes $158 000 for one set of services and $430 000 for advocacy services. However, the parking system is independent of that. Mr R.C. KUCERA: ACROD is essentially the umbrella organisation, and supplies a range of services. We purchase services from the organisation in the same way that we do from a whole range of other non-government agencies. Mr T.R. SPRIGG: Police clearances for volunteers have been a hot topic in the chamber, as the minister knows. It does not appear anywhere in the budget papers of which I am aware. Mr R.C. KUCERA: It has been discussed at length, and some good points were raised. The points raised in the chamber have been passed on to the Alliance for the Prevention of Elder Abuse. In the area of disability services, it comes up as part of our standard monitoring services. I understand that we purchase services for that, and I will allow Dr Shean to elaborate. Dr R. Shean: That initiative was rolled out in the past financial year, and involves the ninth standard. Until last year, we had eight standards. We now have a ninth standard, which incorporates freedom from abuse and neglect. All disability service agencies will now be monitored according to that standard. Any agency that does not have appropriate police clearances will be the subject of required action for specific reporting. That is something that is being very vigorously pursued, and also enthusiastically responded to by the sector, which is very aware of the vulnerability of clients. [7.40 pm] Mr R.C. KUCERA: If I can come back to the point the member made, which was raised in the debate we recently had in the house, I do not know any major service providers that do not apply this as a matter of policy. The difficulty comes with other care areas because many of the carers are family members. It is difficult to apply it to individual family members. If we are funding them or they are being funded through organisations, we can apply it as a matter of policy. Dr R. Shean: If I might add something in respect of volunteers, we had an interesting case recently when somebody objected to our policy because their main volunteer was the person who headed their fundraising committee and that was none other than the Chief Justice. They felt too embarrassed to ask the Chief Justice to furnish a police clearance. We did point out, however, that we thought he would be only too delighted to lead this particular charge. With our very tactfully worded reply, they agreed that it was a terrific outcome for all concerned. Mr J.E. McGRATH: On page 826 there is reference to accommodation support and an amount, less $27.323 million, is estimated for income in 2005-06. What is the source of that income? [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E155

Mr R.C. KUCERA: These are fees and charges, board and lodging etc that come through that program. If the member wishes me to elaborate a little more, I can. Mr J.E. McGRATH: How are those charges calculated? Dr R. Shean: A policy specifies across the sector the amount for board and lodging that is reasonable. We do not charge people for personal care, but we do expect people to contribute to their rent and their food costs. We specify an upper limit, which I think is around 75 per cent maximum of the pension. I know it is lower than that which is specified for the aged care area. Mr P.D. OMODEI: I also refer to page 826 and to “Service 1: Accommodation Support” and the total budget. Can the minister provide a breakdown of all the different categories of people now receiving accommodation support and at which facilities they are, whether built facilities, hostels, homes, their own homes or Disability Services Commission owned facilities? The minister does not have to provide that information right now. Will the minister provide it by way of supplementary information? I note with interest that the number of FTEs will not increase at all in 2005-06. Does that mean that the funds for accommodation support and for those people aged over 70 years - the 134 places - are being provided by other agencies or non-government organisations? The CHAIRMAN: That was pretty smooth, member. I think I heard two questions. Does the minister wish to deal with the first one first? Mr R.C. KUCERA: I will deal with the first one quite simply. Those details are available in the annual report of the Disability Services Commission. I am more than happy to supply the member with a copy of the annual report in which there is a breakdown of all those issues. Mr P.D. OMODEI: It is important. Mr R.C. KUCERA: Perhaps if we supplied the member with the annual report and if further questions arise from that, I will be happy for the member to come back. Mr P.D. OMODEI: We can put those questions on notice. Mr R.C. KUCERA: I am happy to do it in that way rather than tie people up by doing more analysis. Mr P.D. OMODEI: I can get a copy of the annual report myself. The CHAIRMAN: We will move on to the further question. Mr P.D. OMODEI: My next question related to the number of FTEs staying the same at 1 101. Mr R.C. KUCERA: That is set out on page 827. Mr P.D. OMODEI: Yes. Therefore, the extra $13 million that will be provided will go to non-government organisations. Mr R.C. KUCERA: That is correct. As the member will be aware from his time as minister, the Disability Services Commission does not supply most of those services but gets them on a contracted basis. Mr P.D. OMODEI: Can I have an itemised breakdown of where that money is going? I will get the annual report, Madam Chairman, and I will put the question on notice unless the minister wishes to answer the question now. Dr R. Shean: The FTEs are all Disability Services Commission staff. As for where people choose to spend their accommodation dollars, I think the annual report breaks that detail down. I am not absolutely certain. If it does not, I am happy to provide that information as a supplementary. The CHAIRMAN: We will wait to see what the minister says about what he will supply. Mr R.C. KUCERA: We will supply the member with copies of the annual report. He will go through it. If he has any other questions, I am happy to take them on notice. A degree of anxiety about choice is starting to emerge in the sector. The federal government is talking about choice of providers, which is getting broader. That is creating some anxiety because individual carers are setting themselves up. One of the things that I have already discussed with the whole sector this year is the issue of accreditation of people who work in the field. The question will need to be addressed eventually. That is reflected in the number of organisations that are now offering care and support. That is an aside, but there is a degree of anxiety that we need to address over the next 12 months. Mr T.K. WALDRON: On page 829 the ninth dot point of major achievements for 2004-05 is that the department has implemented a streamlined approach to early intervention services for children with autism. It refers to access by all children to a comprehensive district-based individual and family support team as well as focused autism intervention at the Mildred Creak Centre. I do not know where the Mildred Creak Centre is, but my main question is this: will there be such a district-based support structure in rural Western Australia? Narrogin has a locally based one, but there has been an issue with autism and getting services to people in some of the smaller towns. I just wonder whether that would apply there.

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Mr R.C. KUCERA: Much of the problem is having the people who can supply the services, as the member will understand. It is certainly not a matter of funding. We address everybody equally, whether they be in Esperance, Wyndham or Perth. Mr T.K. WALDRON: Access is a problem at times. Mr R.C. KUCERA: Yes. I will ask Dr Shean to add to that. Dr R. Shean: The dot point that the member mentions refers to quite an important initiative of ceasing to run separate services for children with intellectual disabilities versus children with autism. In many cases children had both and it was difficult for parents to work out which service to adopt. Over the next year we will be working on one joint comprehensive service, so that people are not making that very difficult decision, which is in fact based upon an artefact of diagnosis. In the bush over the years we have had similar problems with movement between systems. Health has always had responsibility for therapy services for kids, and so has the Disability Services Commission. Throughout the state now we have integrated health and disability services; once again, with the goal of achieving the same thing so that families are not moving from one service to the other. Where this has been in place for some years it has worked very effectively. We have had very strong feedback from families that this is what they prefer. Services are always a little different in the bush. No-one is under any illusion that people get everything that they want, whether they are in the metropolitan area or in the bush. This year, however, one of the things that we have been able to do is to talk with Treasury about increasing the level of service that each child receives, rather than bringing new children into the system. This still does not meet the levels that families of children with autism would like of, say, 20 hours therapy a week, but for the first time we have been able to look at the quantity of therapy for each child rather than just the head count of who is getting it. [7.50 pm] Mr P.D. OMODEI: I refer to the third dot point at page 828. Why is there a proposal to develop a new instrument for resource allocation for individuals seeking accommodation support funding? What is the reason behind the move to change the current method of assessment? Dr R. Shean: The current method of allocation is to use a system that calculates the estimated required support hours that any individual needs. When we reviewed our accommodation funding system in 2001, Marie Dyson, who did the review, spoke to many people who felt that it missed some critical areas of assessment. She suggested that we trial another better internationally established and validated system. For the past 12 months we have been trying to get dual reports for everyone in the system to see which one is the better predictor value with a view to where we move from here. I think it is called an ICAP, but I am not absolutely certain. Mr R.C. KUCERA: The whole question of assessment is vexed, particularly with the changes that the federal government wants to make. There is constant reassessment, particularly of people on disability pensions. I raised that with Senator Patterson. To be blunt, if someone has lost two legs, they will not grow again. The constant assessment being asked of people, particularly those who might be able to go back into the work force, is causing a range of anxiety. Mr P.D. OMODEI: That is a bit of a red herring. We are not talking about people who may be applying for new disability pensions next year. We are talking about people who already exist in the system - hundreds of thousands of them. Mr R.C. KUCERA: It is relevant when the needs are changing. That is the point being made: it is relevant if people start to lose pensions because of a change in assessment processes. If that were not the case, the member would not have posed the question in the first place, because this is about change. With so much anxiety about change generally at the moment, it is a good question to raise. I do not know what the view was when the member was the minister, but in the short time I have been in the portfolio it seems that the level of assessment, particularly with commonwealth support, is constant and ongoing. Mr P.D. OMODEI: The minister is talking about disability services pensions; he is not talking about accommodation support. Mr R.C. KUCERA: They are all interrelated in many ways. The models are there. The point the member is raising about change has to be assessed. That goes right across the board. Mr P.D. OMODEI: I am talking about accommodation support funding not disability pensions. Mr J.E. McGRATH: My question relates to service 2 at page 828. What additional funding has been made available for equipment, including electronic aids? What additional provision will be made for respite services generally? Will the government be re-establishing a permanent respite facility in Kalgoorlie? Mr R.C. KUCERA: The breakdown for individual and family support is as follows: approximately 3 799 people for family support; approximately 3 524 people for respite; approximately 2 594 people for day options; and total therapy services - the figure is not broken into equipment or other services - is approximately 6 344 people. That is a total of [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E157

15 991 people. There is an additional 506 people who will receive recreation and holiday services, which makes the total 16 497 people overall. I have covered respite. Age is not covered specifically. Mr J.E. McGRATH: Is there additional provision for respite services generally? Does it increase? Mr R.C. KUCERA: The figures I have given are growth over and above the existing services. Dr Shean is happy to answer the question about Kalgoorlie. Dr R. Shean: Some years ago - I believe it was 2001-02 and 2002-03 - we rolled out additional respite funds to investigate the establishment of the service-based respite. We already had significant funds in Kalgoorlie for individual-based respite. We worked with the City of Kalgoorlie-Boulder to provide a respite facility as part of the seniors centre. In fact, it was underutilised. At this stage we have no particular plans to establish a respite facility in Kalgoorlie. For the 2004-05 financial year we have $250 000 in the recurrent budget that is still to go out. We are rolling it into the 2005-06 financial year, which contains an additional $250 000. The total of $500 000 will be open to tender for people to bid for to run respite facilities. It is possible that there will be a bid from Kalgoorlie for the funding, although I think it highly unlikely. We fund two agencies in Kalgoorlie apart from our own services. The impression is that there is not a strong interest in a centre; that most people would prefer to have the money themselves. Mr R.C. KUCERA: Dr Shean has some more breakdown on aids and equipment that may be of some assistance. Dr R. Shean: The budget for aids and equipment generally is around $5 million. Part of the therapy funding from this year of $6.3 million will go into aids and equipment. Until such time as we see what is the demand through the year we cannot be more specific. It is generally about eight per cent of the therapy budget. It is not possible to be specific about the electronic items. Many items of equipment are, amazingly, simple and not complex electronic equipment. Mr R.C. KUCERA: The member should rest assured that we will spend every penny. Mr P.D. OMODEI: I refer to the tenth dot point at page 830, which refers to the establishment of a country resource and consultancy team for the south west. What resources have been allocated for the team’s staff levels and financial resources? Where will the staff be sourced from? Mr R.C. KUCERA: I believe a question was asked some time ago in the other place. Dr R. Shean: I am speaking from memory when I say there are three full-time equivalent therapy staff: an occupational therapist, a speech pathologist and a physiotherapist. In addition, there is some administrative support. At this stage we are hoping to base the team in Bunbury. There was an office in Bunbury but the lease ceased. As such, we are seeking to relocate. We also have another similar country resource consultancy team that services the rest of the state. Quite a lot of the support is conducted through videoconferencing links. Although it may be based in Bunbury, it is available throughout the south west. Of course, staff are prepared to travel. I cannot give the dollar breakdown because we do not break down our budget. Mr P.D. OMODEI: They will come from existing staff who are already allocated to the Disability Services Commission in Bunbury? Dr R. Shean: Yes. Three of the existing staff in Bunbury. Mr P.D. OMODEI: They will teach other people in other hospitals? Dr R. Shean: They will work with therapists in hospitals and also with families. In the event that a child has, for example, special needs for seating that an ordinary trained physiotherapist cannot address with splinting and an occupational therapist cannot address, a specialist staff member will be available to work either directly with the family and/or hopefully with the staff member to skill him up as well. Mr T.R. SPRIGG: I refer to respite services. I note that in a letter written to me by the minister about Meldrum Way, Koondoola, in which the service provider had a problem with funding - Mr R.C. KUCERA: I ask the member to refer his question to an item in the budget papers. Mr T.R. SPRIGG: It is to do with respite services. It refers to a few pages in the budget papers. Whether the organisation is still providing respite services at Meldrum Way, Koondoola - Mr R.C. KUCERA: I ask the member to refer to an item in the budget papers. [8.00 pm] The CHAIRMAN: Can we have a page number please? Mr T.R. SPRIGG: The minister was referring to it earlier. Mr R.C. KUCERA: I am happy to answer that even if the member cannot find the item. Dr R. Shean: The service continues to be provided at Meldrum Way. Contrary to comments that have been made, there has been no funding cut. It is up to i.d.entity.wa to decide whether it wishes to operate within budget. If i.d.entity.wa does not wish to do so, when we roll out the other $500 000 tender money, which I mentioned earlier, it

E158 [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] will be included and it will be up to another agency to bid. i.d.entity.wa has guaranteed that the transition will be seamless and it will continue to operate the service until another agency is ready to take over. Mr R.C. KUCERA: From experience as a Minister for Health, i.d.entity.wa’s tactic is the oldest trick in the book. An organisation will say what it needs, and if the government does not offer that amount, it claims that its budget is being cut. The government does not work that way; i.d.entity.wa must work within budget as do all other agencies. An enormous amount of help and support have been offered to i.d.entity.wa. At the end of the day, other agencies think they can work within the budget. Mr T.R. SPRIGG: Once i.d.entity.wa has realised that, it will probably get its act together. Mr R.C. KUCERA: I cannot say that. The money is being offered and, if it supplies the service, I am happy for it to continue. Mr J.E. McGRATH: I refer to the full-time equivalents under “Key Efficiency Indicators” on page 827. I notice that the commission’s target is to maintain 1 101 FTEs. Are those 1 101 FTEs Disability Services Commission employees? How much of this output of $169 million for accommodation support is payable to non-government service providers? Why do the Budget Statements show only government employees if part of this money is spent employing a large number of private employees? Mr R.C. KUCERA: Yes. They are the FTEs employed by the government. We are not asked to show how many employees work for non-government organisations. We provide funding and, as long as it is within the proper governance guidelines set for government grants, the government is comfortable with that. Mr J.E. McGRATH: How much of the $169 million is payment to NGOs? Mr R.C. KUCERA: Roughly 50 per cent of the money goes to service providers. I have copies of the Budget Bulletin and I will make them available for members to read. [Supplementary Information No B5.] The appropriation was recommended. Division 48: Sport and Recreation, $79 633 000 - Mr M.J. Cowper, Chairman. Mr R.C. Kucera, Minister for Sport and Recreation. Mr R.J. Alexander, Director General. Mr W.G. Swetman, Director, Business Management. Mr S.D. Kerr, Acting Manager, Finance. Mr T.K. WALDRON: The sixth major initiative for 2005-06 on page 847 refers to the $10 million allocated from the sports lottery account. How much funding from the sports lottery account has been set aside for the country sport enrichment scheme? Has the funding been increased for this very good scheme since the last financial year? Mr R.C. KUCERA: The total budget for the country sport enrichment scheme for 2005-06 was $225 000 and for 2004-05 it was $223 450, so it has been increased. Mr T.K. WALDRON: I think I referred to this before. Does the government intend to increase that scheme to include more sports? The value of that scheme is sensational. Mr R.C. KUCERA: The reality is that, if projects in the country are worth funding, we will seek to fund them. However, it is not open slather; they must be worthy projects. The rule we have applied has been reasonably flexible. We have given the West Australian Football Commission indications of future funding so that it can plan ahead. I have had discussions with the Western Australian Cricket Association about staging at least one of its major Pura Cup games at Bunbury, Geraldton or wherever. We have taken games out to Peel. I should not say that because I am wearing a Peel Football Club tie. Basketball is allocated $9 500; football, $110 000; netball, $7 000; English football $24 000. Mr J.E. McGRATH: Is that soccer? Mr R.C. KUCERA: I am not allowed to call it soccer. Surfing has a huge following and it will receive $30 000; tennis, $6 000; speedway, $17 500; and triathlon, $12 000. We are spreading it out as we go. Obviously, as other sports come forward, we are happy to at least listen to see whether we can assist. On top of that, quite a lot of money is being made available through EventsCorp for major events. It is a major supporter of the triathlon series in Busselton. EventsCorp has been considering supporting other regional programs. Funding is available. If we think projects are viable, we will consider them. [8.10 pm] Mr P.B. WATSON: The member for Wagin has asked part of my question. I refer to page 843, service and appropriation summary. Under total consolidated fund appropriations there is an amount of $79.6 million for 2005-06. [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E159

Can the minister highlight those programs run by the Department of Sport and Recreation that will be of particular benefit to regional Western Australia, apart from the country sport enrichment scheme, regional games, the country sports package and the community sporting and recreation facilities fund? Mr R.C. KUCERA: There are a number of areas. I will talk firstly about the CSRFF. The country has done exceptionally well from the CSRFF. In 2005-06, 65 per cent of the CSRFF went to the regions, and only 35 per cent was spent in the metropolitan area. From that perspective, the country did very well. Members will see that if they go to Waroona or Narrogin, or if they go to the opening of the new recreation centre in Albany. That facility is absolutely magnificent. It even has a trapeze area for circuses. Mr P.B. WATSON: Is the minister looking for someone to christen that? Mr R.C. KUCERA: Much is said about the lack of facilities in the regions. However, as I have travelled around the state in the past two years as Minister for Sport and Recreation, I have seen the benefits of the enormous amount of funding that is provided for the regions. As I have said, 65 per cent of the CSRFF goes to the country. In terms of the sports lotteries account, the country package program now has a budget of $481 000. That will offer a range of funding options for regional sporting clubs and associations. Those options include education to improve the level of coaching and umpiring in the country. They also include administration. We often forget the administrators and people who officiate at these events. Usually we rely on volunteers. Additional moneys have been provided for administration. Player development is another area. We need to invest in individual players in the country. I get probably 100 letters a week from young people asking us to support them in international, national and metropolitan events. Unfortunately we tend to support the associations and get them to support the young people. We also offer individual scholarships. The member for Albany will recall that last year, at the same time as we held the regional Parliament in Albany, we awarded a host of sporting scholarships. Mr P.B. WATSON: That was through Healthway. Mr R.C. KUCERA: Yes. All those kinds of things are in there. Another area is hosting competitions. We have talked about that with the member for Wagin. Another area is state team subsidies. We provide subsidies to assist talented individuals who are selected to represent their teams. It is never enough, but at least it gives them a start to get up and represent their state. There is $15 000 a year to encourage the provision of games in regional areas. We would like to grow that concept and look at the regional basis that exists for us in the Indian Ocean. I have a firm belief that instead of considering this state as being on the left-hand side of Australia, we should consider this state as being on the right-hand side of the Indian Ocean rim. We should grow the issue of regional sports from the point of view of not just Albany, Geraldton, Bunbury and Broome, but of Western Australia being an equivalent player to the Asian Games and the Arafura Games and all those sorts of things. That is why Perry Lakes has been so darned important to us. The member for Albany would know, as a former Olympian, that if those types of facilities are not available, we cannot grow that regional concept. This funding is to provide financial assistance for regional games. Last Saturday I had the great privilege of being at the Fremantle Netball Centre, where 6 000 young women from all over Western Australia, with their parents and supporters, were playing in what used to be country netball week. It was fantastic to see. It was incredible. However, there was not a single reporter or television station to witness the greatest participation sport in this state at the moment - women’s netball. There is enormous participation. I have already mentioned the country sport enrichment scheme. All in all, the regions are doing exceptionally well when we consider that of the two million people in this State, 1.4 million are in the metropolitan area, yet the 600 000 people who live in the country receive 65 per cent of the funding. They deserve it. We have no argument about that. Mr P.B. WATSON: It is where all the sportspeople come from, minister! Mr R.C. KUCERA: I know that. Mr T.R. SPRIGG: If the minister’s hardworking director general has some free time, there are a couple of football clubs in this town at the moment that need a bit of help, particularly my old club, East Fremantle! Mr R.C. KUCERA: I thought the member was talking about the Dockers for a moment! Mr T.R. SPRIGG: Yes - and the Dockers. I refer to page 852, works in progress and completed works. A commitment was made in the 2001 budget to build an athletics facility at Joondalup. There is no mention of that in this budget. When will this commitment be met? Mr R.C. KUCERA: In this year’s funding under the CSRFF, the Arena Community Sport and Recreation Association has been allocated $550 000 towards the construction of clubrooms, change rooms, netball courts etc. There is a range of things. That includes the consideration of an athletics field at Arena Joondalup. I am not aware of how far that has progressed. How that $550 000 is applied is entirely up to the association. My understanding was that some of that money has been earmarked for that issue. The association has just completed a study that indicates that at this stage there is limited demand in Joondalup for that particular facility. Mr R.J. Alexander: The study was completed. It showed that Arena Joondalup would not require a new track until 2011. It was happy with the grass track facility that it had. It just needed some accommodation and change rooms around that facility.

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Mr T.K. WALDRON: I refer to page 846. The second dot point under major initiatives for 2005-06 refers to the $9 million that will be allocated through the CSRFF. Is the country swimming pool upgrade program still in operation under the CSRFF? If it is, how much has been allocated to that program; and, if it is not, do shires that need upgrades to their 40-year-old-plus pools simply apply through the CSRFF? Mr R.C. KUCERA: As the member may be aware, the CSRFF has changed over the past couple of years. We now have a specific committee that deals with that funding, and each application, whether it be for renewal of a pool or a new pool, is treated on its merits. If Wagin, for instance, needs to renew its pool, it will need to put in its application, the same as happened recently with Balga in Perth, and the same as applies to any other CSRFF program, provided it gets support from the local council. There is no specific pool renewal program. The other issue with the CSRFF is that it is not for recurrent expenditure. Councils and other areas with pools need to deal with the issue of recurrent expenditure themselves. There is no provision in these programs for recurrent funding. It is only for capital. Mr T.K. WALDRON: However, if a community has a pool that is 40 years old and that pool is vital to the community and has reached the stage at which health-wise the council needs to do something, will the CSRFF committee look at it? [8.20 pm] Mr R.C. KUCERA: Yes, it will. There are three ways in which a council can fund a redevelopment. It can be done through the CSRFF. However, the CSRFF has limited funds. Generally speaking it is difficult to get anything worth over $750 000 through the CSRFF, bearing in mind that twice that amount again will be generated if the council supports it. The second way is through the $80 million in the regional investment fund that is available for community programs that are considered to fit the particular criteria of that fund. Through the member for Wagin’s regional minister, the Minister for the Midwest and Wheatbelt, there is capacity to apply for regional investment funding. The third and final way is to make a direct approach to the consolidated fund for capital funding. Treasury funds a couple of those projects every so often when an enormous need is evident and the local community has no capacity to fund the facility. It usually involves remote communities, although it also occurs in some of the emerging suburbs in Perth - that is, suburbs that are plonked in an area with no backup services. A couple of examples have been pointed out by my advisers. The Shire of Kondinin was successful in receiving $43 333 for stage two of the refurbishment of the Hyden swimming pool. Also, $74 000 was allocated to upgrade the Moora swimming pool, including pipe works, a shade shell and ballast tank. Mt Magnet was also successful in receiving $67 200 for the development of a toddlers pool. The Shire of Trayning was successful in receiving shade shells for the Trayning swimming pool. Also, the governance of the community sporting and recreation facilities fund has been tightened considerably. Applications are made, and successful applications are reassessed after six months; if it becomes evident that the program will not proceed, funding is rolled over to another program. The budget papers over the years indicate a large variation in CSRFF funding. Sometimes an allocation of $12 million or $13 million has been made. The variation is because programs are rolled over as a result of the rigour applied to them. That does not mean that a shire or local area will lose its funding, as projects are just bumped onto the next year’s list. When we first came to government, under Minister Alan Carpenter, and again when I became minister, the Director General of the Department of Sport and Recreation expressed concern that he was building up reserves that would never be spent. The fund is about getting money into the community and getting facilities built, not keeping money on hold or looking for other advantages from it. For instance, as a result of special needs, Halls Creek received $1.5 million for its swimming pool. I commend the previous coalition government. I admit I had great doubts as a country commander in the Police Service about money being spent on pools in remote communities, but I compliment the previous member for Yokine for his work as the responsible minister as those swimming pools have been a great success health-wise. Mr T.K. WALDRON: Very much so. Mr R.C. KUCERA: That does not mean that they are not giving everybody heartache with the recurrent costs of keeping them running. Perhaps the feds could throw some money into our infrastructure from a health perspective. One can only hope. Mr S.R. HILL: I refer the minister to page 849 of the Budget Statements and the major initiatives for 2005-06. The third dot point reads - Continue to administer and expand the Academy of Sport Program supporting athletes with potential in regional and remote areas. Can the minister advise further details of that program? Mr R.C. KUCERA: As it is specific, I refer that matter to the director general. Mr R.J. Alexander: That refers to a program to assist people in remote areas, particularly in the Pilbara, such as the Port Hedland and Karratha areas. We fly elite coaches up to train some of the better performers, and we also fly athletes to Perth to give them opportunities for state championships and to be involved in national championships. A range of sports is involved, particularly swimming and tennis. [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E161

Mr S.R. HILL: Netball? Mr R.J. Alexander: Yes. Netball has been involved. Touch rugby is a big sport in the Pilbara, and it has been involved in the program as well. It is particularly successful in the swimming area, as a number of people have made the state team and performed very well. It is important to make an effort to ensure that people in regional Western Australia have opportunities to be involved in state training. It is sometimes expensive to get elite coaches to those areas. To that end, Skywest has been good in providing sponsorship to fly people about when spare seats are available. It has been appreciated. Mr R.C. KUCERA: Opportunities were made available through the Alcoa coach-in-residence funding. I believe the program may be coming to an end. It is certainly of great help whenever elite coaches can get out to the country. Mr J. McGRATH: My question relates to the fourth dot point under major achievements for 2004-05 on page 845 of the Budget Statements. It reads - $1 million allocated toward the completion of the second stage development at Perth Oval to support Perth’s Super 14s Rugby team. . . . I note that the balance of the project’s funding of $24 million is to be allocated in 2005-06. Will $24 million pay for the entire project? If not, who will provide the remaining funding? When the stadium is complete, who will own the facility, and who will be responsible for its management? Mr R.C. KUCERA: It is anticipated that the $25 million in total will be sufficient for the second stage of the development of that oval. Who will be responsible for its management? A renegotiation of existing contracts will occur following the redevelopment. In stage one, $6.7 million was provided by the state government, and the Town of Vincent contributed $4.46 million plus the land. Therefore, the Town of Vincent will always be involved. Alia Holdings, a subsidiary of the Perth Glory Soccer Club, is responsible for the management of the facility. The preliminary agreement was signed by the Town of Vincent in April 2005, and the government provided $500 000 to allow negotiations on the construction of the second stage to commence. The Town of Vincent had already advertised a tender for an architect. We will look for provisions in that regard. Stage 2A of Members Equity Stadium is due for completion at the end of 2007. We are close to agreement with the Western Australian Football Commission to have the 2006 Super 14s games played at Subiaco Oval. The development of Perth Oval involves a rectangular ground. Members may have seen recently that Australia will complete its bid for the 2006 Fédération Internationale de Football Association World Cup finals as part of the South American qualifying division. Once the 2006 bid is complete, I understand that Australia will move into the Asian FIFA World Cup qualifying groups, which will be a whole new ball game in the World Cup organisation. With the new A-League coming on board for national soccer, or football as it is termed, bigger games will be held at Members Equity Stadium. Sydney United will be playing off against an Asian team next week for a place in the FIFA Club World Championship. This provides the opportunity to open up the ground for major soccer games in the future. Four or five weeks ago, we held the first rugby league game played in Perth for some time, with a view to bidding to host some of the 2008 Rugby League World Cup games. David Gallop, the Chief Executive Officer of the National Rugby League, and his team came over to Perth for that game. They want to make a bid for World Cup games to be played in Perth. We estimate that gate entries of 22 000 or 23 000 are achieved for the Rugby League World Cup games, and that would suit Members Equity Stadium down to the ground. That move is being made with a view to getting a National Rugby League team back in Perth in 2010. Members Equity Stadium is about not only rugby union, but also all rectangular ground sports. Following negotiations, the rugby organisation and the WA Football Commission have pretty well got the first year of the Super 14s stitched up. What goes on after that is up to the agreement of those involvement. MR J. McGRATH: Relating to the rectangular ground, the minister talked about Australia making a bid for the FIFA World Cup. We saw how successful the International Rugby Board World Cup was a couple of years ago when held in Australia. Would the Members Equity Stadium be big enough to accommodate the types of crowds drawn to the huge international games? [8.30 pm] Mr R.C. KUCERA: Members Equity Stadium is designed to hold up to 23 500 people and 19 corporate boxes, plus corporate facilities on a large basis, similar to the Billy Walker Room at Subiaco Oval. There would be a need for us to move towards Subiaco Oval or the Western Australian Cricket Association ground for those kinds of competitions. The bid for rugby was not only about the new rugby team, the Western Force; it was also about growing the game of rugby in Western Australia. We anticipate that as Western Force establishes itself, the ground will be used more and more for local games and competitions. People forget or do not realise that our state rugby team is extremely successful. We have featured in the finals for the past four or five seasons. In fact, Perth Gold is in the finals again this year. As the popularity of the Super 14s grows, the game of rugby will grow. This year for the first time in many years there has been a major increase in the number of kids enrolling in all codes of football. The publicity about soccer versus rugby

E162 [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] versus football is benefiting all codes. As I have been advised, junior enrolments are up right across the board this year. That is good news. Mr P.B. WATSON: I refer the minister to the third-last dot point on page 847 of the Budget Statements and the ongoing development of relationships with the Indian and Malaysian governments regarding the provision of sporting expertise and assistance. Will the minister advise the success of that to date? Mr R.C. KUCERA: The director general and I travelled to India last year and signed a memorandum of understanding with the Indian government. Unfortunately, there was a change of government about three weeks later. I hope we did not have anything to do with that! That MOU is being renegotiated. We are arranging for the first group to travel to India to help with the development of grassroots sport in that country. Our relationship with the Malaysian government is going ahead in leaps and bounds. We have a firm partnership with the Malaysian government in the development of its grassroots sport. We are also starting to develop the possibility of entering into joint competition. Again, it is part of the process of developing the idea of an Indian Ocean rim competition as opposed to seeing ourselves as the left-hand side of Australia. I compliment Hallam Pereira and Tom Hoad from our international sports division who are doing excellent work in many countries. We will mount a strong bid for the AUSSI Masters swimming competition to return to Perth. That event has up to 10 000 competitors. Perth is one of the few places in the world that can stage that event. All of this has grown from that initial contact with Indian Ocean countries. Mr R.J. Alexander: There has been a range of benefits so far. The Malaysian sports minister has been to Perth on three occasions in the past six months to look at our sports facilities. Under the MOU, people from the Western Australian Institute of Sport have visited Kuala Lumper to look at the Malaysian facilities. Employment opportunities have been taken up by Western Australians in Kuala Lumper with the Malaysian government - one is a sports psychologist and the other is a sports physiologist - which has worked out very well. A number of teams have visited Perth, specifically the Malaysian basketball team. There is an ongoing relationship. Also, WAIS athletes and coaches have been able to use the KL facilities. That was very useful when acclimatising our hockey athletes for the Athens Olympic Games and other events. It has also been useful as a stopover when travelling to events. As the minister mentioned, India will host the 2010 Commonwealth Games. Recently we met with a group from the New Delhi building authority who were looking at ways of building a games village. One Sunday morning a number of building companies gave presentations to the authority. It was quite taken by those presentations, and negotiations are occurring with one building company in particular. A range of things is happening, including some that will bring employment opportunities to Western Australia. Mr R.C. KUCERA: Our eventual vision with the establishment of the Perry Lakes complex at AK Reserve is to have a centre of sports excellence for Western Australia that will allow us not only to produce the best sportspeople in the world, but also to produce the best administrators, builders of sporting facilities, sports psychologists and coaches. More importantly, we want to create a school and university that will allow people to come to Western Australia to be trained and educated to increase the Indian Ocean competition. It is a real prospect. Dennis Lillee has been talking to people at Madras Rubber. Unfortunately, as members are well aware, we did not get the cricket academy, which went to Queensland. However, that does not mean to say that we cannot have the bowling academy here. It does not mean to say that we cannot set up a secondary school and university in conjunction with the University of Western Australia sports science school to bring people to Perth. It is not just about sport. It is about growing trade, education and job opportunities and the range of benefits that will come out of those two associations. Mr T.K. WALDRON: I refer the minister to page 852 of the Budget Statements and the new state netball training centre. The minister commented about attending a netball match in Fremantle on the weekend and what a huge participation sport it is. It is critical that we get the netball training centre up and running as soon as possible. Will the minister advise whether the $2 million that has been allocated is sufficient to meet the needs of a state netball training centre? I understand that the netball association is required to fund its own strategic plan before any funding is made. When will we see something solid, including the announcement of a location for the new centre? Mr R.C. KUCERA: Firstly, I will deal with the funding. In total, $5 million has been allocated; $2 million has been allocated this year and a further $3 million will be allocated in 2006-07. That was done so that if we were in a position to proceed next year, we would have the money on tap. The two potential sites are Curtin University and Challenge Stadium. The emphasis is on a training centre. A bit of that emphasis has been lost because we have been talking about stadiums. We are now talking about a training centre that will bring netball offices, training, coaches etc together in one place. Curtin is offering in-kind benefits that may assist us. On the other hand, there are benefits of having the centre at Challenge because much of the structure is already in place. The only issue we have had with netball is the fact that it is not in a financial position to pay the full commercial costs for staging Orioles games, and occasionally they get bumped off the list and have to find another venue. If we are able to sort that out and get a balance, the Challenge option would disappear. We are talking about a training centre, not necessarily a major stadium development. There are benefits from both options. We have allocated $5 million in total. The preferred option for a training centre will be presented to me as the minister. I will then present that in another place, hopefully towards the end of this month. Extensive research has been undertaken in partnership with WA Netball to establish the most sustainable site for the state training centre. The final analysis is due for consideration in July and an announcement of a site and a construction time frame is expected in August 2005. [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E163

[8.40 pm] Mr T.K. WALDRON: I am sorry, I did not hear that. Mr R.C. KUCERA: In July they will present me with the final issues. Obviously, those recommendations will have to go before cabinet, then I would expect that, if they were approved, we would look to make an announcement sometime in August 2005. When that comes to fruition, it will show the value that we place on that sport. Mr T.R. SPRIGG: I refer the minister again to the community sporting and recreation facilities fund. He perhaps partly answered this question before, when he mentioned that the budget has dropped by some $2.5 million this financial year. He mentioned that roll-overs in capital works provide some of the reasons for that. However, I put it to the minister that a building cost rise of something like 17 per cent will mean that that amount of money will be grossly inadequate. Mr R.C. KUCERA: People must cut their cloth to suit. The annual budget of the previous government was $8 million. We have bumped that up to $9 million. In addition to that, in the past year, almost $70 million has been spent on sporting facilities. Debt retirement for the commission amounted to $25 million; $5 million has been put into the Western Australian Cricket Association; $25 million has been put into Members Equity Stadium; and so on. With the CSRFF, we have tried to get people to cut their cloth accordingly, and to look at what happens. It supports our commitment to the development of infrastructure. Is not just about building facilities; it is also about increasing participation generally. Our annual commitments to the fund have increased by about $1.25 million since 2002-03. The cost of building is an issue. One of the great aspects of the CSRFF, however, is that because a third of the funding is often in kind, supplied by the sporting associations, the building costs do not always apply, although the materials costs are an issue. We are constantly reviewing the CSRFF, but there is only so much money in the pot, and we are not doing too badly. As I said, sport has been pretty well catered for over the past two years, and I would expect that to continue. Mr T.R. SPRIGG: I note that $290 000 of the funds allocated in 2004-05 was not spent. That seems a bit surprising. Mr R.C. KUCERA: That is just carryover. At the last minute, there are always some programs that just do not get up in time for the budget. Mr T.R. SPRIGG: Let me know about them! Mr R.C. KUCERA: They get rolled over. As I explained earlier, we do a six-month reappraisal now of all these projects, and we are quite blunt with them. The member for Warren-Blackwood has now left the chamber, but there was a particular program under which we agreed to fund the development of a swimming pool to the tune of about $1.2 million. The application in 2002 was for a $1.26 million project in total. We approved $420 302 from the CSRFF. The group said it would take four years to complete the project, and we said that was fine. The group came back in June 2004 and said that the cost was now $2.1 million, so it had almost doubled. We said that we would find money for that, and we were able to find some money from the CSRFF and other sources. The group called tenders with the expectation that the project cost would be $3.4 million, and came back just last week and said that the tenders had come in at $4.3 million. I said to the group that it had $2.1 million, and that its members should go away and think about things. If it turns out that the project falls over, obviously the original $1.26 million is still there to be used on another project. We are being very rigorous with this grant program. We are asking people not to put up silly ambit claims on things like this. Our facilities are world class. We have more 50-metre pools in the metropolitan area of Perth than there are in the entire United Kingdom. It is unbelievable. The CHAIRMAN (Mr M.J. Cowper): Can one be moved to Mandurah or the Peel region? They are screaming for one. Mr R.C. KUCERA: I think you have a conflict of interest there, Mr Chairman! Mr J.E. McGRATH: My question relates to major policy decisions on page 842 of the Budget Statements. I refer to the decisions taken prior to the state election, and in particular the line item for additional funding to the Western Australian Institute of Sport. I notice that it has gone up $172 000 this year and then goes up fairly rapidly to $438 000 in the following year and $455 000 in the years after that. I gather that has to do with the Olympics. Can the minister inform us of the reason for the increase, and how those sums were determined? Mr R.C. KUCERA: I will get the director general to talk about that, but my understanding is that we have now built in consumer price index increases, and consideration of four-year funding cycles, based on the Olympics cycle, so that the institute can hold onto its coaches and key players. That is why there has been a big jump. In addition, it is locked in for four years, so the institute knows well ahead what its funding will be. That does not mean to say that there would not be an increase in the future if it were justified. Mr J.E. McGRATH: So, it is locked into a four-year cycle, and as soon as the Olympic Games are held, another cycle begins. Mr R.C. KUCERA: Exactly.

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Mr J.E. McGRATH: So there will be a big ongoing increase in funding for the Western Australian Institute of Sport? Mr R.C. KUCERA: We have locked it into four-year cycles. Obviously, that will be a consideration as we go into the bilaterals in 2008, to see whether we can lock the Treasurer into another four-year cycle. However, the indications are that that will be the case. Mr J.E. McGRATH: I am saying that this year, with the Commonwealth Games on next year - Mr R.C. KUCERA: This is the first time that we have actually built in CPI increases. That is why there has been a big jump in that first year. Can the director general add to that? Mr R.J. Alexander: That is correct. The Western Australian Institute of Sport has not previously had CPI adjustments in its wages, so over a period the pressure always built up, and it had trouble maintaining its coaches, because it would hire coaches from around the world and then people would start to poach them because there was no CPI increase on their wages. This has been an effort to ensure the institute’s funding on an ongoing basis so that it can remain competitive with the wages it pays. It was a fairly commonsense action. Mr J.E. McGRATH: Nevertheless, it is a fairly significant increase, is it not? Mr R.C. KUCERA: Yes it is, but it was well justified. The WAIS board and management are to be congratulated. They presented to the Treasury one of the best business cases for a sporting organisation that I have seen for many years. Treasury is never happy, but it accepted the proposal. The member is quite right in what he says. Obviously, in 2008-09, as we go into the bilaterals, we will need to look at that. Mr T.K. WALDRON: I refer to page 849 of the Budget Statements, and major achievements for 2004-05. The first dot point refers to the federal government’s Active After-school Communities program. I have a couple of questions on this matter, which the minister may be able to answer or may have to supply as supplementary information. Can the minister advise how many schools across Western Australia have taken up the Active After-school Communities program, and how much the state has contributed to that program? I am keen to know what the uptake has been in country schools. Does the minister deem this program successful? Mr R.C. KUCERA: I am not sure that the money has actually been rolled out yet. Mr T.K. WALDRON: It is happening. Mr R.C. KUCERA: Yes, it is happening. Essentially, my understanding is that we have been contracted to take on the role through the Department of Sport and Recreation on behalf of the federal government. Mr R.J. Alexander: I cannot answer questions about how many schools are participating and what the rollout is. However, 17 people have been employed full time by the Australian Sports Commission, and the state government has housed them in the Perth central office of the Department of Sport and Recreation, and has also made office space available in its regional offices. [8.50 pm] Mr T.K. WALDRON: Like the guys in Narrogin? Mr R.J. Alexander: Exactly, we have created a sports house in those areas where, as the member would know, we also have different sports development officers as well as people from the Australian Sports Commission and the Department of Sport and Recreation. It creates a good collegiate effect, and they bounce off each other. As to the success of it, it is early days yet, and there are varying degrees of success. Some schools have embraced the project, some have not. The project is meant to have children staying after school. It particularly tries to target latchkey children, so that children who might otherwise go home to an empty house have something to do. The state government has tried to facilitate the commonwealth government’s employees in the project and reduce the cost to the commonwealth government. There is also a range of staff. Certainly the state coordinator used to work with the Department of Sport and Recreation. We have tried to provide a role in the project, because it has been one of those projects in which they have attempted to do good things, but it requires some flexibility by all those involved to target it for the particular towns and the particular people so that it is successful. Mr T.K. WALDRON: That is why I was asking the question. Would I be able to get supplementary information on how many schools have actually taken it up? I would like to know, if possible, how many schools in the country have done so. Mr R.C. KUCERA: We will do those two things for the member. I am also interested now to see what our contribution in kind is. I understand that we are charging them a small fee for providing them with office accommodation and space. The CHAIRMAN: Does the minister agree to provide the supplementary information; and, if so, will he state exactly what that information will be? Mr R.C. KUCERA: The information that will be provided is how many schools have taken up the option and whether it is successful. Does the member want to know where the schools are? [ASSEMBLY ESTIMATES COMMITTEE B - Tuesday, 7 June 2005] E165

Mr T.K. WALDRON: I would like to know about country schools in particular. Mr R.C. KUCERA: The information provided will be how many schools have taken up the option, how many schools are in the country and what they are and what the contribution in kind is from the Western Australian government. [Supplementary Information No B6.] The appropriation was recommended. Division 49: Western Australian Sports Centre Trust, $15 126 000 - Mr M.J. Cowper, Chairman. Mr R.C. Kucera, Minister for Sport and Recreation. Mr R.J. Alexander, Director General, Department of Sport and Recreation. Mr W.G. Swetman, Director, Business Management, Department of Sport and Recreation. Mr S.D. Kerr, Acting Manager, Finance, Department of Sport and Recreation. Mr R.C. KUCERA: Sandy Kerr will be answering any financial questions on this division. Mr T.R. BUSWELL: The minister has touched on this before, and maybe we did not quite get to the answer to the question that the member for South Perth asked about the ongoing management of Members Equity Stadium. I refer to page 863. Would it not be wise for the Western Australian Sports Centre Trust in future to look after and take control of these many stadia that government instrumentalities of all sorts of persuasions have been putting money into for a long time? I refer to Subiaco Oval and possibly the WACA. We would then not get the problems that football, rugby and so on have had. Mr R.C. KUCERA: In the case of Members Equity, there is an equal partnership with the Town of Vincent. That has not been considered for being taken over. Mr T.R. BUSWELL: If I may just jump in through you, Mr Chairman, I can see problems between soccer and rugby coming up. Mr R.C. KUCERA: An issue arose recently with the cost of rugby league playing there. Certain types of flexibility are built into the heads of agreement. We can step in and do certain things. Similarly with Subiaco Oval we can do that. That aspect can be built into the heads of agreement. The essential of the Sports Centre Trust is that it deals with sporting facilities that will not make a profit. The $14 million that is flowing through there each year is the cost to government of running those facilities. For instance, the Joondalup complex belongs to the government, not to the people of Joondalup. One would ask in the long term whether that is a good arrangement. The motorplex at Cockburn is now making money. One might wonder why the government is in the business of running a motorplex. Those kinds of things are really up for consideration. I have some issues with the government owning and running sporting facilities when they are profitable. When we must step in, as we do in Midland with the cycling facilities, they are unlikely to make a profit at any time, but cycling is a very popular sport which needs to be supported. I believe that there is a role there for the Sports Centre Trust. Whether the Sports Centre Trust would ever step in and take over the management of major stadia like Subiaco Oval is a question that I would like to address to John Langoulant and his committee when they start to look at the whole question of the future of sporting facilities in this state. Mr T.R. BUSWELL: AK Reserve comes into the same category. Mr R.C. KUCERA: AK Reserve comes into that kind of thing. A project control group is looking at the long-term major facility needs of Perth. As the member knows, John Langoulant is chairing that committee. There is a draft project brief. If part of that comes back and they talk about the government managing facilities, obviously it is something that we will look at. The Sports Centre Trust has been successful in what it has done. Certain areas are profitable, but they are now propping up unprofitable areas. One wonders whether the government should be in the business of managing profitable situations. Football has probably put $50 million into Subiaco Oval. What do we do with that? We would have to walk up and buy it off them. My belief is that if we get proper heads of agreement for a joint arrangement between us, local government and perhaps Members Equity in the case of a private organisation managing a facility, as long as those heads of agreement are right, I do not think we will have too many problems. We will always have the tick and tack of commercial negotiations. My view at this stage is not to expand the role of the Sports Centre Trust; in fact, I would like to see it managed a little tighter. I will certainly look at it from the point of view of whether, when we reach the situation of a sporting facility becoming profitable, the government should be in the business of hanging on to it. There has been no major review of that area for some time. The Machinery of Government Taskforce looked at it and recommended that there should be a further review down the track. Perhaps the question the member has raised poses the question of whether I need to look at it from the point of view of John Langoulant’s committee or do I need to look at the whole structure. That is a question I have not addressed at this stage.

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Mr T.K. WALDRON: On page 863, the first two dot points of the major achievements for 2004-05 refer to the staging of major rock concerts at Arena Joondalup and Challenge Stadium. I notice that one of the major initiatives for 2005-06 is to continue to stage those concerts. Are concerts actually booked for that period and how successful financially and otherwise have those rock concerts been? Mr R.C. KUCERA: They have been very successful financially. It is a hard question from a government perspective when we know that those kinds of things are propping up the operations of other stadia. As for what is booked in the future, I have no doubt that management is chasing bookings on a regular basis. Again, that raises the issue of the multipurpose stadium that is proposed on behalf of the government. Some $50 million for that is in the budget for public works. When it is built - it is not a question of if it is built - I have no doubt that it will impact on those stadia, which will then see us start to look at what is needed. A feasibility study was completed in July 2002 to determine the need for that particular venue, as the member is aware, and $50 million has been budgeted for it. That is something that will impact. I have to keep coming back to the fact that there is a $14 million impost on an annual basis on government to support these facilities. That is something that should be recognised. Mr J.E. McGRATH: The minister mentioned the Kwinana International Motorplex. I notice it is not in the Western Australian Sports Centre Trust although it is owned by the government. It is not mentioned here. Mr R.C. KUCERA: It comes under normal costings. As I understand it, it is managed by the sports centre trust. It is leased to the people who manage it. Mr J.E. McGRATH: It is not operated by the trust but it is owned by the government? Mr R.C. KUCERA: Yes, that is right. It is operated by the lessees. Mr J.E. McGRATH: The complex is owned by the government? Mr R.C. KUCERA: Yes. Mr J.E. McGRATH: Has the government received any expressions of interest in the facility? Mr R.C. KUCERA: Because it is vested land, the first approach would have to be made to the City of Cockburn. We are always willing to entertain approaches in that regard. The appropriation was recommended. Committee adjourned at 9.00 pm ______