Interview with Edward J. Hendrick

1/30/79

(in Walter Phillips' home)

The first question reads, how were you selected to serve in the Clark administration, and what position did you hold?

Well, in 1951, I was chief U.S. probation officer for the eastern district of Pennsylvania, located in the Federal Court House at 9th and Market, in those days, or 9th and Chestnut. I think it was probably mid-November or late Nov­ ember, I received a telephone call one day from...I'm not clear just what the group was, but I'd like to say Greater Philadelphia Movement, but I'm not positive that it's that. But they were seeking, obviously, potential names to provide joe uiarK, wno~was tnen alreaHy^rnayor and was going to come in in January to office, for consideration of department heads, commissioners, and so forth...all commissioner posi­ tions and many other positions in the city were totally new under the new charter.

I was asked whether I wished to put my hat in the ring for consideration for commissioner of welfare department. My re­ action was immediately very negative, because the experience that I had had with the Department of Public Welfare under the previous administrations, the Republican administrations, was extremely negative. ' ,V (WMP: What were some of the things that were negative?)

Well, when Iper'had a probationer parolee in need of welfare services, it was absolutely useless to call anybody in the Department of Public Welfare. They were very understaffed, they had no services, really, to offer. So, we used to have to go to private agencies like Salvation Army, Pennsylvania Prison Society, or other groups like that. You obtained no services, as far as adults were concerned. Now, of course, if a person needed money, that was not the function of the city Department of Welfare; that was the County Board of Assis­ tance or the state Department of Welfare....I'm not speaking of that entity.

(WMP: Who was the head of welfare before the Clark administration?)

It was a woman, and bpyT' I want to say^Mrs. McCarthy. I'm not sure about that. But it was a woman, and she wa s .y.her title was not commissioner.

(WMP: Was there a board? Was she chairman of an agency?) 2 .

No, she was the administrator of the Department of Welfare, which before the Clark administration, contained not only the Department of Public Welfare but Recreation as well. The... under the new administration and the new charter, recreation was split away from welfare. But under the Department of Wel­ fare, they operated the old Camp Happy for a summer camp for youngsters up in the Torresdale area, and the Department of Public Welfare had responsibility for all of the playgrounds in the city, such as they were at that time. Most of them were sandlots.

(WMP: There was a Bureau of Recreation, wasn't there...not a department, just a bureau.)

That's right, that was a bureau, and the same...the Home for the Indigent, which later became Riverview, and the House of Correction were under what was called a Bureau of Charities and Corrections. That also, was under the Department of Pub­ lic Welfare prior to 1952.

Well, I did not submit my name. I was happy where I was; I had 12 years in with the Federal Court system, and I couldn't see the advantage of change. Moreover, I was living at that time in Delaware County. In 1940s, to be a Democrat in Dela­ ware County was...to have no vote! Everything was decided, really, at the primary. Whichever Republican won the primary automatically won the general election. So even though I came from a Democratic tradition, living in Delaware County I thought ...well, I want to have some say as to who's in. So I regis­ tered Republican. So even at that point in time, I was a reg­ istered Republican. J

I knew I would have to move, even though I was 500 feet out­ side the city...I lived in Yeadon, but I knew that if I moved into the city, I would have to give up a home that I liked and buy another one in the city. So I gave itup

Around the middle of December, I guess it was, I got a call from Randy Wise. And of course, Randy Wise and I had been very close and worked with each other since I first met Randy Wise in 1942. And we've been close over the years,* we were both in naval ser­ vice together, though he was on the East coast and I was on the West Coast, we had comparable positions. He was prison admini­ stration officer for the 3rd Naval District, and I was prison administration officer for the 12th Naval District in San Fran­ cisco. And we had worked together.

He called me one day...at that time he was with National Proba­ tion and Parole Association which later became the National Council on Crime and Delinquency. And he was traveling the country at that time, so he used to call me when he'd get into town. He called me this afternoon, and said,"Could yotf meet?" v---- vtft I met him and he told me that he had been asked to indicate his interest in being the Commissioner of Public Welfare. And 3 .

f t he said, "If I should be selected, would you come as one of my deputys, because I'm allowed two exempt deputy positions under tHe charter."

"Well", I said, "Randy, why don't you see first, whether you do, before I make you a commitment".

He was selected, I think toward the end of Dec^mbp.r^. . T think it was firmed u p . . .6f ' 517^ He came to m e . i t.pi1 v. and frankly, I went through maybe three or four days of soul- searching and conversation with my wife as to whether I did want to or did not want to. Anyhow I made the decision and initially Manny Kaufman and I were selected as his two depu­ ties. Then Randy was....I think Randy was sworn in either the same day as Mayor Clark was sworn in, or maybe the day after...I think the same day. So that was in January. The deputies were really not selected until two or three weeks later. I know I started on the job February 11th of 1952, ...cause I can always remember...I went on the job and the next day was Lincoln's birthday and it was a holiday. And I went home to my wife and I said, "Well, this is not bad. I work one day and already there's a holiday!" That hadn't been a holiday in the federal government.

was quickly recognized that the work in the welfare de­ partment would require much more attention than just the com­ missioner and two deputies could handle, because the children's side, from a standpoint of records, accountability as to where the children under the charge of the Department of Welfare were, was almost non-existent. I think the central office of the Department of Public Welfare in 1952, when we came in, occupied the entire -floor ... 4th floor.. .of ..City Hall Annex. And if you were to ask me as to how many people were actually in there, at that time, excluding the recreation division, my recollection would be something like eight or ten...was the entire staff.

(WMP: And they had the whole floor?)

Had the whole floor.

(WMP: What did they do with it?) t4V Well, we were literally rolling around I mean, up in the side facing....on Juniper Street side, was Randy's office, and then - 7 we divided up there, and in addition to...Well, Johannes Hoeber was brought on then. He came on as the third deputy. And Randy, Manny Kaufman, Johannes and myself used to meet every day for two or three hours, you know, planning directions...where we were going from here.

In addition to that, the only other people around initially, were a secretary, a switchboard operator, and a woman who gen­ erally handled accounts.

Some humorous things we found at that time...there was a tremen- 4 .

dous safe in that office. And when Randy finally succeeded in opening it, there was nothing but a couple of old city deeds to city property... in this tremendous safe. But in the drawers of the workers down the hall, were uncashed money orders, cash, payments for children's support....I don't know what the purpose, but there was money loose all over the place, you know, in desk drawers...but nothing valuable in this tremendous safel So those were some of the situations.

Now, as I said, I became deputy commissioner and my function was to be adult services...under the charter, it's spelled out under welfare department^^the department would be responsible for all dependent neglected and delinquent children. And then responsible for the aged infirm who were at the Home for the Indigent, or...I was always amused at the....I call it a Phila- delphiaism...the pronunciation. So many people seriously call­ ed it the Home for the Indignant!!! And really, that was my first shock...I think, the first field trip I went out and that was probably within the week of appointment...Randy and I, prob­ ably Manny and Johannes...we went up to inspect the Home for the Indigent.on State Road. And the conditions I saw in there... ^1 don't have a weak stomach} Jaaat practically turned me inside out. I went home to my wife that night, I can recall, and said, "I think I have made a gross error in accepting this position". Because at that time, at least,I was going to have a staff re­ sponsibility into that institution.

We found almost a thousand dependent, aged persons, housed at the home in buildings that dated back to 1914, approximately. The entire staff to operate that 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, numbered 37 people. v\ (WMP: It should have been about how many?)

Well, in a home for theUaged, you should figure, of course, skilled care...if they need skilled care, it should be almost one to one. Now a lot of them were residential#'. So to give you a ballpark figure, they had 37 instead of 400 to 500 that they would need. I'm talking about 3 shifts a day, 7 days a week.

The few people they had there...Miss Hamilton was the nurse in charge, I can recall...a most dedicated individual...no question about it...but as you walked through the place, urine, feces... all over the floor. The only help they had were prisoners sent over from the House of Correction. They were the work force, and they were in those days...those were committed by the magis­ trates...for habitual drunkenness...and vagrancy. The House of Correction was largely that.

(WMP: Was there a board...an independent board in charge, or was it just an administrative appointment by the mayor, or what?) 5 .

Just an administrator appointed by the mayor. Prior to 1952, there were no boards. And House of Correction and the Home for the Indigent were under one administrator, Ray Groller at that time. So that there was one superintendent who was over both institutions, and it had one budget. So that a correctional institution or a place for...I hate even to use the term...offenders...the habitual drunks and the vagrants were more public nuisances than criminals. They're not crim­ inals. As a matter of fact, so many of them would have 60, 70 terms of 3 months or so, repetitively, at the House of Cor­ rections, for alcoholism, and finally they'd get to the age of maybe being 65 or even 60, because they aged rather young, be­ cause of years on alcohol, they would be transferred to River- view and end their days in Riverview, when they could no long­ er make it in the House of Correction.

(WMP: What was the name of Riverview before you had that nice name for it?)

Home for the Indigent. It was really the county poorhouse... or the city poorhouse.

(WMP: The only one, was it, or were there others?) > That was the only one in recent years. I'd heard, but certain­ ly not in my time, there used to be one located, I believe, over near Berholm Park...No, wait a minute...I'm wrong....where Lin­ coln High School is today, in the northeast, there used to be a poorhouse there...kind of a branch of the one on the Delaware River.

Now, I worked first of all, our first decision was that these two institutions...one for the dependent, aged...and it wasn't just age, because if a person was without resources in the com­ munity and couldn't make it, and some of them were mentally de­ fective ... they went to Riverview. But we decided we had to split a prison away from what is really a welfare home. So Ray Groller was named, and a board was appointed... a board for J the Home for the Indigent...was appointed by the mayor, and a JV* board for the House of Correction was appointed. And Francis "" Finnegan, who""wa£ With“t'Ke^CrTmeVCommission, was the first chairman of the House of Correction board. And my recollection of the other board members was...it was Francis Finnegan as chairman, Sue Levy...I just read that her husband died last week...Dick Levy had been with the FBI for years and then went into private law practice and he died at the age of...I think the paper said 67; he just died about a week ago. Sue Levy, Dr. Flippin...do you remember him?

(WMP: Yes.) He was a member of the board, Phil Davidoff, who late became ...he was the predecessor as chairman of the school board be­ fore Arthur Thomas. Phil Davidoff, Arthur Thomas, who is present president of the school board, and Randy Wise, ex- 6 .

officio, as commissioner. So that board was established and we began to break House of Correction away from the admini­ stration of Riverview. I don't recall the members of the Riverview or Home for the Indigent board, each one of them, but I know the first president was Mr. Gallagher. Ive for­ gotten his first name...I think it was not James...it might have been John...Gallagher. He was a former postmaster of the city of Philadelphia some years preyously.

(WMP: There was a Gallagher, yes.)

Well, he was the first president of the Home for the Indigent board of trustees.

Now, then the next step was Ray Groller went as superintendent exclusively, of the Old Folks' Home. We then selected...went on recruitment for a superintendent of House of Correction. I made the recommendation... there were a number of names put in. but I contacted a man that I had served in the Navy with; on the West Coast, and thought very highly of him. Before he went into the Navy, he had been chief probation officer of the juvenile court in Marion County, Indiana. So he had stayed on I got out of the Navy in 1946, and he remained on...he didn't have any children...he and his wife were on the West Coast. They asked me if I would stay, but I wanted to get back to civ ilian life and to my job. But he stayed on for an additional six months. And I never lost contact with him, but he went back into Marion County in Indiana...Indianapolis. So when this came up, I contacted him. His name was Charles Boswell. And I said, "Charlie, we're looking for a superintendent of House of Correction. Would you come on and talk to me about it?" He did. I took him through the place. I said, "There's a lot of work here to be done'.'..from a physical standpoint, from setting up programs because it was nothing but a revolv­ ing door operation up there...in and out...with the HDs and the vagrants. And on the women's side...the women's wing, prostitutes, street walkers. You didn't have a lot of drugs in those days. The drug commitment was not too usual. And the average stay at the House of Correction was 30, 60, 90 days...some repetitive cases the magistrate would give a year.

(WMP: What sort of programs did you have to rehabilitate these people...to bring these people back to normal lives?)

Well, at the time we started there was absolutely nothing... other than to feed them, give them medical care, pump vita­ mins into them to compensate for the loss of weight which was the result of drinking, drinking, and not eating at the time.

I won't delay too long on Charlie Boswell. He accepted, the board appointed him, and then because of a family problem be­ cause of his mother-in-law, he turned it down at the last min­ ute because he didn't want to re-locate his then, I think, 78 year old mother-in-law from Indianapolis. She resisted that. 7 .

Well, just as a kind of a footnote, what happened to Charlie Boswell since then...I hear from him every year, at Christmas^ we correspond. Charlie went on to become controller of the city of Indianapolis, served 2 terms as mayor. They wanted him to run as governor against, I think it was Lempke, was it, governor of Indiana at one time?

(WMP: That's a name I've heard before.)

I've just forgotten it now. He decided no, he didn't want the governor's position. And Kennedy, President Kennedy, in 1961 or so, named him Postmaster of Indianapolis, and he still is Postmaster of Indianapolis. So he was a man of real quali­ ty and ability and so forth.

We got another majx^in that I had also known in the Navy; he was^jrecommended /fioly by m e . I opposed his appointment. I said, "I lenow this man from the Navy and I don't care for However, on paper he looked very good. ^ *

(WMP: This was for a civil service job?)

No, it was appointment by the board of trustees of the House of Correction. Under the charter, the charter says each in­ stitution will have a board, and it was a departmental board, appointed by the mayor, and they in turn, selected the super­ intendent of an institution. It was an exempt job, not civil service. Everything underneath that became civil service.

So this man came on and-he came in in a whirlwind, but had the place terribly upset within a year and a half. Ultimately, we took his resignation from him.

Now, until...let me back up a little bit. We started first of all, improving conditions physically, in the prisons and River- view, cleaning the plant up, getting sanitation in, improving just the bedding, even...the bedding was in horrible condition. The mattresses were made at Holmesburg Prison and largely were stuffed with...were ticking made in the prison shops at Holmes­ burg, stuffed with some substance... it reminded me of seaweed, and then they pounded them into shape. And those were the mat­ tresses. They were horrible things. And some of them hadn't been cleaned in years. So the place was really dirty. That was the first thing we had to clean up...the physical plant. Paint. Then recruit more personnel to provide proper care.

Now Holmesburg and Moyamensing prisons continued as the county prison under the superintendency of Dr. Fred Baldi. He was a medical doctor and he had been connected with the county pris­ ons ... I guess as far back as after World War I. I think he was a physician in World War I, came out, he was medical dir­ ector for the prisons, and then, when they had the steam deaths at Holmesburg, in 1938, which was a tremendous scandal; I be­ lieve six or seven inmates died in that in August of 1938. 8 .

(BF: What did they die from?)

They were put out in a building inside the wall that was called Klondike... it was absolute isolation...no windows in the....there were...my recollection... eight cells, single cells...no windows, just skylights...

(WMP: Did they give them any heat?)

Well, this was in August that they were out there. They were isolated. They were trouble-makers. And, well, the warden was ultimately convicted in court, but he gave the order be­ cause they were disturbing or something. Someone gave the order to turn on the steam heat through the whole place. It was a blistering August anyhow. So, on top of that, they heat­ ed the place.

(WMP: What was the idea of that?)

Punishment. And...

(WMP: What had they done to be punished like that?)

That was an internal punishment... in the jail.

(WMP: What had they done, though, to evoke that punishment?)

I really don't know, because I'd come later on...other than newspaper clippings on that. I couldn't find one official record ....I'll come back to the matter of what I found in records.

Well, the board of prison inspectors...

(BF: You didn't finish saying what happened when they turned the steam off.)

Oh, ...

(WMP: Everybody got killed?)

Yes. Six, seven, maybe eight prisoners died. I've forgotten the exact number. And the warden at that time, or deputy warden, was a man by the name of Craven. He and a whole group were indicted, but Craven was convicted and served time.

Now, my point was that after that, Craven was relieved of his command; of course, he was arrested. And Dr. Baldi, who was the medical director was made superintendent of Holmesburg and Moyamensing Prison in 1938 and remained as such until we came on the scene in 1952.

Now, Mayor Clark and of course, the first managing director was..

(WMP: Buck Sawyer.) 9 .

Buck Sawyer. It was discussed with them and they said our department would have jurisdiction over the county prisons because the charter specifically said, under correctional., or penal institutions, all penal institutions in the city will be the responsibility of the Department of Public Wel­ fare .

There was a board of prison inspectors that...to whom Dr. Baldi answered. Now that was the structure back to....well, I guess, when Moyamensing was opened in 1835. That had a board of prison inspectors.

(WMP: 1835?)

1835, Moyamensing was opened. Holwesburg was opened in 1895 or 1896. Now, this board of prison inspectors fought the charter mandate that the county prisons were under the De­ partment of Public Welfare. They said they were not affect­ ed by the charter change, and city-county consolidation.

It went to court and Judge Carroll in, I believe it was Aug­ ust of 1953, gave down the decision that indeed, they were now city institutions, because there is no longer a county govern­ ment, in Philadelphia.

Baldi was retained. Mayor Clark appointed a new board, retaining some of the prison inspectors...board of prison inspectors. The new chairman of the board was Thorsten Sellin, who was the eminent criminologist at University of Pennsylvania. He was named chairman of the Holmesburg-Moyamensing Board of Trus­ tees, and Francis Finnegan was chairman, as I said before, of the House of :tion board.

A, Little timefwent well. We had the first meeting, I can re­ call, about October of 1953. And Mayor Clark was present at that meeting himself. And it was held down in City Hall, be­ cause he came in briefly, simply to set the tone and he said he wanted those members retained from the former board of pri­ son inspectors to understand that'we were complying with the charter mandate, and he even indicated Dr. Baldi was going to be kept on...to continue running those two prisons.

Baldi said nothing, publiclyj he accepted it. That was about October. Early in December, my recollection is about the 7th or 8th of December, it could have been a few days later, I picked up the....I guess the morning Inquirer...and the head­ lines were.... "DOCTOR BALDI RESIGNS". Nobody had been noti­ fied. The board hadn't been told. Randy hadn't been told. I knew nothing about it. He literally packed up and walked out.

Well, the board quickly assembled with that, and they had two institutions really running without any head. They turned to me and they said, "Until we can make a decision as to how we will go, will you wear another hat?" 10.

So I said okay. So I was deputy commissioner and acting superintendent of Holmesburg and Moyamensing for 18 months. That brought me up until March of 1955. And between shutt­ ling from City Hall Annex to Moyamensing to Holmesburg and then staff responsibilities into House of Correction, I felt almost like a whirling dervish. I mean, my work was all over the place; I had four offices.

So meanwhile, we'd had some difficulties with the superinten­ dent of House of Correction; the board agreed that he had to go. And I proposed...I said, "It doesn't make any sense to me to have two boards over three prisons. Why don't we have one board, consolidate the three prisons under one administra­ tion. If you want me as superintendent, I'll be superinten­ dent, but I want a warden under me at each institution, to be the man on the spot for day-to-day administration. And I will handle the overall, and be the person that talks to the board .-and decide dn policy matters".

So that was accomplished in the spring of 1955. And by attri­ tion, almost, the two boards...Francis Finnegan died around that period of time...so the two boards were meshed to become one board in charge of the’ three.

Now, the next question I would speak to would be...would you describe the conditions of the prisons and management of the prisons that you found when you took office and what did you determine your first priorities to be?

I've already spoken somewhat to the House of Correction; phy­ sical condition was very bad...we had to start with, really, clean-up. I can remember walking“in there the first time, on a night visit. And I snapped on the lights in the mess hall. And if I saw one, I must have seen 5,000 roaches scurry across the floor. So there were conditions like that.

(WMP: Gosh, I lived right near there...I wouldn't want one of those to get to my house.)

That's right, you were just up the road.

Holmesburg and Moyamensing...now Moyamensing dated back to 1835..it was opened. It was the replacement for the old Wal­ nut Street prison at the corner of 6th and Walnut. And Mayor Dilworth's home ultimately took part of what was originally the property of the old Walnut Street jail. He was probably in that area of what was called the Prune Street Apartments of the Walnut Street prison. It was kind of a debtors' pri­ son in those days. So his home is on that site.

The old Walnut Street jail was closed up and Moyamensing open­ ed in 1835. I was absolutely fascinated with some of the things that...maybe it's not apropos for this...but, it cost I believe, $330,000 to build Moyamensing prison. Their orig- 11.

inal budget was $150,000, so they doubled it...even in 1835. And it was provided.... the money was provided by the sale of the Walnut Street jail, and the old Arch Street jail, which used to be on Rayburn Plaza, where the municipal services building stands today.

Now, of course, there was no further need for Walnut Street jail, because the Eastern State Penitentiary opened in 1829, and the state got into taking the long-term serious criminals at 22nd and Fairmount. So then Moyamensing was built as the first county jail.

Moyamensing had a total capacity of 450 prisoners, if you counted every cell, including the women's division. It had male and female divisions; NorthBlock,and South Block each three tiers, and the women's division had two tiers.

(WMP: You mean one on top of each other?)

Right.

(WMP: Did they get up on ladders, or how did they get up?) •up 3 You went*stairwell and then there were walkways with an open space. In other words, from the third tier, you would look down into a totally open space. There was just a walkway along to...for prisoners and the patrolling guards to go along and open each cell. Every cell had to be opened individually.

Now, I will say this, and I would give tribute to Baldi1s ad­ ministration. He ran a clean place; he ran an orderly place. There was nothing in the way of what I would call ‘'Program^' other than at Holmesburg, some good make-work programs. He had put in a weave shop, a knit shop, shoe repair, and shoe manufacturing shop, and then the usual maintenance shops like painting, plumbing, and so forth. All prisoners'wear clothes were actually made within the prison... from weaving the cloth, cutting it...the tailor shop cut it...and even socks were knit­ ted... he had knitting machines, weaving machines. You went in to the weave shop...there were probably at least 15, maybe 20 large weaving machines, all going simultaneously. The noise was so great, you couldn't possibly hold a conversation.

So that those work programs were going on there.

(WMP: These were within the walls of the prison, were they?)

That's right, right within the wall.

Now, in addition to that, immediately adjacent to Byberry, there was a 325 acre farm.

(WMP: Yes, I tried to take it away from them.)

...Right. And Baldi had a real interest in farming. As a mat- 12.

ter of fact, he used to go away for a week or so up to Penn State and take courses in agriculture and come back. And it was a first-class farm. There's no question. I wouldn't be critical of that. And the produce was brought down from there...a detail of prisoners did most of the work under very few farmers and guards. And all the produce was brought down, some of it eaten fresh, distributed to other institutions, and the balance, canned. We had a cannery outside the wall at Holmes- burg prison.

Now, I continued that...the farm...and thought that it would be nice because apple sauce was always a very favorite dish with the prisoners. I said, "Let's start our own apple or­ chard." And I got 300 trees and started an orchard up there, but it takes about 7 years for an apple tree to mature before it bears, and by the time we'd reached that point...we were now into the mid-60s...when that area began to build up around. And the new neighbors robbed us blind...in other words...they would come over and they would pick at night. We didn't have the farm covered at night with security. So they would come over and pick the corn and pick the tomatoes, and it then be­ came an unprofitable operation, and the youngsters in the neigh­ borhood would come over with a fungo bat and pull the unripened apples off and have great fun knocking them out, you know.

So, I recommended about...I think it was '65 or '66 that we give up the operation of the farm. I was also somewhat afraid that with the population growing right around the farm, that a child could be molested by one of the prisoners because there was not supervision. Or there could be a rape in the neigh­ borhood and automatically we'd probably be blamed, whether it was true or not.

Now, Moyamensing, we recognized was terribly overcrowded. Con­ sidering conditions, it was well-maintained. There had to be at least four separate servings of each meal, because the din­ ing hall was not big enough to accommodate the whole population at once. And they ate on tables that were about the width of an ironing board...at a long table and fixed seats. And they, simply had to move in on a continuous line to eat, and move out.

But the place was orderly. It was insecure? there were no towers at Moyamensing, so we constantly had escape attempts... a few successful, because there were no wall towers, and the wall was not that high. The wall was, at maximum, 12 feet. But you could go up internally, scale the walls internally, onto a roof, and come right out to the outside wall and just jump off.

(WMP: How about Willy Sutton?)

He went from Holmesburg. I'm talking Moyamensing now. That was 1947, I think; Sutton and Tenuto, Kleindinst, and two others went out. 13.

(WMP: How'd they get out?)

Well, that was pretty well planned. He was a real plotter. Now, I found in Baldi's files, the superintendent's files, I found exactly...I could say...six pages of rather sparse reports on that whole Tenuto-Sutton escape, and some photo­ graphs, and also the rope ladder that they'd fashioned to scale the wall.

Whei Baldi went, I think he either shredded...or in those days, maybe they didn't have shredders, but he burned, or disposed of, or took with him....I don't know. But when I walked in, I said, "Let me see the superintendent's files". And there weren't any!....other than the minute books. The minute books for Moyamensing prison..and even the Walnut Street prison ...I put them...they were down at Moyamensing and I thought....what a terrible place to keep these valuable books, in case there would ever be a fire or they were des­ troyed. These go back to 1785, or maybe before. All in beautiful script. And so I had all of those books put into the archives. And they're wherever the archives now are; I think they're down on Chestnut Street someplace.

(WMP: They're a mess.)

Are they? Well, I thought they would be safer there than inside of a prison, where, you know, if you had an upset someone could get into there and simply destroy some very valuable books.

Now, I would say that work-wise, the internal conditions, as far as the cleanliness, at Holmesburg was good. I wouldn't be critical of that. Again, Holmesburg...the day I took over I can recall there were 991 prisoners in Holmesburg prison, in December of 1953. Now Holmesburg was built for single oc­ cupancy cells, and originally had approximately 700 individ­ ual cells, ten wings. The number had been decreased from 700 to about 650 because, as time passed, they needed a cell to take over for another function, maybe to make a little office out of it, or put an X-ray machine in it, so they lost about 50 cells by converting cells to other uses.

So I had 991 prisoners in December of 1953, in Holmesburg. And probably, about men and women, another 700 or 80 0 at Moya mensing prison. And at House of Correction we had close to 1,000....men and women.

(WMP: Their terms usually averaged about how long?)

Well, House of Correction...very short. Holmesburg, we had., the longest sentence I had there was 48 years. But when I took over, I had a death row of about 4 or 5 inmates, and in those days,it was the practice to keep the inmates at Holmes­ burg until the governor... the week of execution, named the week, and sent a warrant down and then we delivered the pris- 14.

oner to Rockview for electrocution.

(WMP: Rockview is where?) /S Up at Belfont, just outside of PennState.

I didn't like the idea of having the Death Row at Holmesburg and ultimately I was able to negotiate with the state. Strange­ ly enough, Baldi went from us and became warden of Rockview. He really walked out of our job, but he had this other job all lined up with the state. He was warden up there for maybe about a year or so; I think that's all he wanted. To my know­ ledge, I think he's still alive. I've never read that he died. I think he lives in the New Hope area. Of course, he always did live in New Hope. And I think that was....he maintained a residence in the building outside of Holmesburg prison...the superintendent's quarters. But he just maintained it; he was never there. He actually lived in New Hope.

The one big thing that was lacking...we started to move in on, was prisoners were not classified, and there were no counsel­ ing services. In other words, it was just sheer lock-up and a daily routine; there was nothing in terms of getting to know a prisoner, what's his background, are there any problems than can be solved, are there some that can be salvageable. In other words, it was strictly a place of custody. You went in and when your term was up, you were put out the door. Period. So that was the first thing we moved toward that... toward the establishment of a classification and treatment staff... small.

Second objective we had...we knew that we had to get rid of Moyamensing prison. It was too old to renovate; moreover it was down in the center of....when Moyamensing was originally built in 1835, it was out in the countryat 10th and Reed. Now it was in a very populous area... congested, and even though the board of prison inspectors under Baldi had a whole design to put a whole new front with cell blocks^we didn't like that. We thought that was a waste of money to try to put a new face on such an old structure.

It was finally gotten into the capital program, either toward the end of Joe Clark's administration or the beginning of Dick Dilworth's administration, to create a new House of Detention. And that was finally achieved, after much discussion as to where it should be located, and so forth. It was finally de­ cided, it was only six and a half million dollars, put into the capital program and ultimately the capital budget to build this thing. I said initially there should be nine million for it, but, we were told to either take the six and a half, or it's nothing. So we settled for the six and a hal|^ And instead of building single cells, we had to go the

1963...the new detention center at 8201 State Road, just north of the House of Correction.

(WMP: I didn't know there was room there...you'd be right in the creek...the Pennypack Creek.)

We were between the...oh, yes, we were north of the Penny- pack Creek, between the Pennypack Creek and the Police Acad­ emy.

(WMP: Well, it winds around in there.)

That's right. It does wind around.

(WMP: That land, I believe, in the early 1800s, belonged to my family.)

Oh, is that so?

(WMP: I think so.)

Well, there was a lot of resistance about putting it so far north, because it was to be a house of detention, prisoners therefore, having to be taken to City Hall. I argued in fav­ or of it: number one, the city already owned the ground, so we didn't have to spend money to acquire a site. The Ridge­ way Library in South Philadelphia was mentioned as another site, and I said it's too small. It's only, really, a large square block and I said, we need to spread out a little bit more. So I said, thirdly, 1-95, which in 1959 was about ready to begin, and the original schedule for total comple­ tion was about 1968...of course, it's not finished yet, but that's another story!I..but that's the way we looked at it, that it will be a simple run right down from there...it'11 be no more than 10 or 15 minutes. And that's about all it would be if you had 1-95 and the intersecting routes hooked up.

Well, I didn't like the decision that we were going to have to go for dormitories. And that proved to be the undoing, really, in later years, because that's where the homosexual­ ity really thrived...in those dormitories. And when it came to personnel, even though we increased the personnel tremen­ dously, ...of course, we automatically had to, because in 1951, city employees, with the exception of maybe a couple of depart­ ments like the Streets Departments, were not organized... they were not unionized. The work week was 48 hours. If you work­ ed somebody overtime, he got straight compensatory time, hour for hour; there were no such things as time-and-a-half and double time, and so forth, that we came into.

So we had to increase, when the city became unionized, under Distric'Tcouncil 33, now we got to a 40-hour week, time-and-a- half, so that budgets began to rise. Yet, I was looking at 16 .

the figures of cost of maintaining a prison in I960, be­ cause I came across a newspaper clipping that would have been in '60 or '61...I think the newspaper clipping was '61, when Alex Hemphill, who was then controller, criticized us because he said the city was losing thousands of dollars, because we were not charging the federal government suffi­ cient for boarding their prisoners. The federal government always...the United States marshall kept a certain amount of federal prisoners in our facilities.

(WMP: How come?)

They negotiated a contract with us. And, see, they had to bring them into federal court in Philadelphia. Now, if they had a man at Lewisburg, or if the FBI arrested somebody in Philadelphia, there was no federal house of detention to take them to, so they put them with us.

So Hemphill found that it was costing us $3.17 a day to main­ tain a prisoner, which was probably accurate. But he said our contract with the federal government only called for pay­ ment of $3 a day, therefore we were losing 17C a day.

Well, big deal! I mean at maximum, at any one time, we had 50 federal prisoners in custody. So 50 times 17C a day...it'll add up; I'll grant you that. But when you negotiate a contract, it has a term, you know, and then we re-negotiate it every year or so.

But, let's take that interesting figure: $3.17 a day in 1960 to maintain a prisoner. And that included anything in the way of education, medical, his medical needs, with the one excep­ tion that if we sent a prisoner to Philadelphia General Hos­ pital to the prison ward, we didn't count the cost of PGH in our budget.

Where is it today? I understand that the cost today to main­ tain a prisoner, not including medical, not including educa­ tional programs, is now $40 to $41 a day.

(WMP: Is that due to inflation partly, and partly bad manage­ ment, or wThat?)

Well, certainly, a great amount is due to inflation. The vast majority of the increased cost, in my opinion, is the result of the courts appointment and direction of the prisons since 1972. There's a famous case: Jackson versus Hendrick. I'm the named defendant. Now, of course, there were many defendants named: Tate, as mayor, all of the members of City Council at the time, Randy Wise and so forth, but in the law books you'll find the case is Jackson versus Hendrick.

(WMP: Who brought this case?)

That was brought by the voluntary defender, Rudofsky, as a 17.

class action. It was brought in 1971, and Dick Sprague was appointed to represent me and all of the defendants, because it was everybody in the city, practically, named as defendents

Dick Sprague...and I have great admiration for Dick Sprague's ability, capability, but I think he was relying on the histori cal background of how courts looked at prison administration. And he took the position that this 3-judge court had no juris­ diction to hear this case. And therefore, he would not cross- examine, he would not put in any defense, he simply sat there and the case went on, I think, 4 or 5 or 6 days. I was on the stand for 2 solid days, called as a witness by the plain­ tiffs. I'm a defendant in the action, called as a witness.

But it was a class action; it was not a criminal matter, nor was it.... So I simply, for 2 days described conditions in the prisons, and so forth and so on.

Well, Dick Sprague * ...I said, "Dick, aren't you going to cross-examine me, because I'm being asked questions and shut off before I can give a full answer".

He said, "No, Ed. I'm not going to dignify this court with anything more than constant objections. I object!!" He ob­ jected continuously to the jurisdiction of the court and he was overruled.

He said, "I'm going to win this case on appeal".

It did go on appeal, but the appellate court, having the re­ cord only of one side of the case, rendered its finding,"since we have no -other side, we can only find in favor of the plain­ tiffs". So there it was. He lost on his main argument that the court did not have jurisdiction to interfere with prison administration.

Now that certainly was the legal...I'm not a lawyer, but read­ ing much, case after case, the cases that were brought into court, charging prison administration with this, that, or the other thing... prior to 1963, you'd find the federal courts and everybody saying, "The courts have no proper place: this is in the executive branch of the government". Now if it was a writ of habeus corpus along the rights of an individual prisoner, but not on such things as to whether the prison administration decides to give television or not give television to inmates, the courts always stayed away from questions like that. But now the courts are into everything, even down to putting tele­ phones into cell blocks.

(WMP: That's incredible! That's unbelievable!)

It's existing. Now this is where costs have gone up. The courts have man­ dated two guards on every block at Holmesburg, on every shift. 18.

Now, I ran Holmesburg with...on the evening and what we call the morning shifts. In other words, from 4 to 12, and 12 to 8 in the morning, with sometimes as few as one guard covering three blocks, because the prisoners were all locked up during those hours. But I couldn't afford any more. I constantly begged for more personnel, but it wasn't in the budget. But now the courts have mandated it.

I've heard figures of overtime in one pay period, presently going on, of $102,000 overtime, in the prisons, for one 2-week period.

I understand there's a sick leave rate that runs about 33%. And that of course, creates the need for overtime. So, these are some of the problems that I see today. And I don't think that they have...the courts entrance into it, I don't think has turned out anybody from the prisons more rehabilitated than in the past. I was very interested in Marvin Wolfgang's recent article. I've known Marvin since he started under Thorsten Sellin at the University of Pennsylvania. And like Marvin, he was one time certainly a great opponent of punishment as such, ....it's got to be rehabilitation... rehabilitation.

Well, I thought that I personally, was av middle-of-the-road. I felt that there's a time, just as in raising children, there's a time, every once in a while, that you've got to give some youngster a slap on the behind, or you've got to impose some punishment or deprivation and so forth. You can't be all peaches and cream. I never did believe in cruel and unusual punishment, or I wouldn't stand for corporal punishment in any respect. However, I think today the pendulum has swung to the opposite direction. You have today, in the Philadel­ phia prisons...I had an average daily population of almost 3,000 ... sometimes over, sometimes a little under. Today, they're running around 2,000...a little under, a little over. So about one-third less than I had. And yet, well, I couldn't quote their budget today, but I think it is in the neighborhood... again, excluding medical care because now that's given by the health department, which is something that Randy Wise and I urged in the time of Dr. Dixon...when Dr. Dixon was health commissioner. We said to him, "Doctor, the health treatment in theprisons should be under your department, under the health department... the same as inthe government; in the federal pri- scrs, it's under the United States Public Health Service.

(WMP: How about Norman Ingraham. Did he ever look at this problem?)

I talked to him about it too. But it was always... they had so many problems with PGH ...and no one really wanted to be bothered with the criminals in jail. When I'd go in for bud­ get hearings in later years and so forth, at the managing dir­ ector's office level,...we always had a preliminary budget hearing.... I'd go in with maybe a request, "I need 50 more 19.

guards".

"Justify itf "

I'd get the answer, "Ed, how many escapes have you had?"

"I haven't had any."

"How many riots have you had?"

"I haven't had any."

"You don't need any more. You're doing a fine job!"

But people don't see what's happening. I was complaining and I wrote a long report in....I think it was my 1964, or '65 annual report...addressed to the board of trustess/"which I singled out the terrible idleness that is in these prisons, that is rotting people away...it's not doing anything except making them more bitter. Number two, the juvenile situation which we had been hammering at for years, right from almost 1953. In 1952 the Youth Study Center was opened on the park­ way for 150. The original study indicated that it should be planned for 300. They cut it in half to 150, and practically the day it was opened, it was overcrowded. So we continued to get the 16 and 17 year olds sent to House of Correction, where they called a wing up there, the Pennypack House. And these youngsters were mixed in with the older prisoners, and of course, there were problems. Homosexual...everything else.

This was pointed out time and time again. I also pointed out the homosexuality problem in 1965* I said, "So far, we have been fortunate in avoiding any public scandal. But I can't promise you how long this will go on, because I neither have the personnel, sufficient to control it, and I've got the wrong prisoners. These youngsters shouldn't be in our custody any­ how. They ought to be at the Youth Study Center. It's not our function.

(WMP: Well, what's the matter with the people on City Council and the mayor, and so on? Why don't they take notice of this problem?)

Well, Walter, you know, it's a matter of government mechanics. Wed start off our own departmental preparation of a budget. Now the next meeting would be with the managing director. There would be cuts made there. Then the next level would be review by the finance director. And he's starting from a fig­ ure that he's looking at... potential revenue. And he's got to cut expenditures in terms of that.

Now, when you finally get before City Council, no commissioner or deputy commissioner is going to say to City Council, in an open hearing, "But Mr. Councilman, you know this isn't our budget at all". 20.

You are limited, I mean you can't before City Council, un­ less you want to say,‘'Well, I'm going to put on a demonstration ...this is my last day on thejob!" You're not going to over­ rule the decisions of the managing director, the finance dir­ ector, the mayor. The mayor's budget really goes to City Coun­ cil. And the mayor's budget is made up of the preliminary bud­ gets, which have been filtered and cut until it comes into a realistic figure...the overall.

So it comes to a matter of priorities.

Every month, almost without exception, the grand juries toured these institutions. This was part of their function. I always thought it kind of a waste of time, because you had people that would walk through an institution...don't know any­ thing about it...and if you really wanted to cover up something, you didn't show them that place.

Now, I felt we gave them always an honest tour. I used to talk with them on every occasion...turn them over and I would say to them, "If there is any place in the institution that you think you want to go, and we're not showing you, you ask, and you'll be taken there".

Well, I can point to report after report so favorable to us. One or two exceptions, perhaps, over a period of 20 years. But I used to tell them the problems. "These juveniles don't belong in the House of Correction. Would you please put that In your report. Will you please give me public support. I need this. This is wrong. That's wrong." They would put it in their reports. Those reports were made public.

(WMP: What happened to the prison society?)

Well, it's still in existence. A1 Fraser...remember Al Fraser?

(WMP: If he's who I'm thinking of, yes.)

You know he's still living?

(WMP: Is he really? He must be about 90 years old.)

He just passed his 101st birthday.

(WMP: You're kidding!)

That's right.

(WMP: I'll be darned!)

...And is still up and around. Al Fraser was a wonderful per­ son. He was succeeded by Dick Bacon. Dick Bacon retired, I think about 1973. A fellow by the name of ...I wouldn't say Rendell, that's the district attorney...but it's a similar name 21.

to that. He's now there. I really don't know him so I can't comment.

Well, I think the Pennsylvania Prison Society, other than being an advocate in certain situations...and I worked very closely with Dick Bacon, and he would support me on this... on the abolition of those old sheriffs' vans, because that's where a lot of this homosexuality was taking place. And I said to Dick, "Look, I'll give you some facts, but you push it. You're the organization that should push this." And Lennox was sheriff at the time, and I spoke with Bill Lennox.

I said, "Bill, you know there's a lot of...not just nonsense, there's a lot of criminality going on inside those vans... those closed vans.

(WMP: That was even being carried in the newspapers, wasn't it?)

After the fact. After we had beefed. But Bill would say to me, "Ed, I'd like to get buses for them, but I can't get it into my budget".

Well, of course, that was another thing, if I deparlf. and I still don't understand this, except that there're political backgrounds. Why does the sheriff's office even exist today., because the sheriff is a county officer, and was supposed to be abolished.

(WMP: It must have been placed into some other department, then, wasn't it?) -V The original intent was that the functions of the sheriff's office would be spread into other departments...transportation of prisoners should have been the prisons' business. We had to turn over our prisoners to be taken by another agency to court, and we didn't know what was happening to them... to them, or with them...in the 5 to 8 hours they were outside of our custody. Then they'd bring them back to us and hand them into us and we'd have to shake them down, and we would find all sorts of contraband on them because the sheriff's offi­ cers weren't on the ball.

The other functions of the sheriff's office, like sheriff's sales...well, I'm sure that could have been under the de­ partment of collection, or some other department. But it's been maintained because it is an elective office. That's the only reason I can see.

(WMP: I wonder how that got by that way.)

Well, every administration, from Joe Clark, Dick Dilworth, Tate...everyone's passed it over. But why? As far as I know, I think it's the only residual piece of government that, his­ 22.

torically, is county.

(WMP: There must have been some quirk in the law...the laws about it?)

Do you think it may be patronage?

(WMP: Well, it could be.)

It's a good plum.

(WMP: That would be the reason, maybe, but there must have been some quirk that one of the civic agencies haven't gotten after it. The Committee of 70, you'd think, would get after a thing like that.)

Well, I don't think that any...unless they've changed it in veiy recent years, all the...all personnel in the sheriff's department, I think, are exempt. They're not under civil service.

(WMP: I'll bet Lennox Moak must know the answer to this.)

I know that guards...or we called them later, correctional officers...in the prison system, used to play politics to get a transfer from the prisons to the sheriff's office, and I don't blame them, because with us, they were subject to shift rotation...whereas in the sheriff's office, it was just a daytime job. They didn't function at night.

(WMP: Could it be that there's a,state function here that makes them not subject to the city charter?)

Honestly, I don't know...that could be. But I know that it was discussed...I can remember times when the administration stated that...."Well, the sheriff's office wouldn't be around too much longer". But it's always persisted, and still does until today.

(WMP: It would be interesting to find out what happened there.)

Well, I think, kind of in rambling fashion, kind of..I've covered this.

(WMP: You've covered a lot of ground. It's very interesting.)

I hope I've made some sense. I'm not bitter. I felt very privileged to serve under the three mayors that I did. Mayor Clark, Dilworth, Tate...I had some differences periodically with Mayor Tate, but I'm a good friend of his today. But some things are there. 23.

One of the great highlights I look back in those three ad­ ministrations, but the pattern was set under Joe Clark, with the team approach...the commissioners' meetings where the mayor, the commissioners and all the department heads got to­ gether about once a month, I recall.

(WMP: When did there cease to be commissioners' meetings, or do they still have them, if not very successfully?)

Well, I don't know what's happening, really, under the Rizzo administration. They certainly continued through Tate. Tate continued those meetings. Yes, I don't think they might have been as frequent...might have been every other month. But he rotated around: we used to go to different places. I can remember so vividly the night that...I guess the whole city administration was broken up when Dick Dilworth came in... the commissioners;' meeting was held at the Academy of Fine Arts at Broad and Cherry...and he walked in that night and there wasn't a dry eye in the place when he said he was go­ ing to resign to run for governor.

(WMP: Yes, it was sort of a blow, wasn't it?)

Yeah...because I don't know of any one...I suppose there are some...there always have to be some...but...that didn't admire DidcDilworth. Oh, sure, he sometimes opened his mouth, and he admitted it himself...when he should have kept it shut! But, I mean, he spoke his mind and he spoke for the time, and if he was wrong, he was the first one to say, "Well, I was wrong".

(WMP: He made a great contribution. He arid I had differences, and there were differences between Dick and Joe Clark and I got caught up in that. But I admired Dick and I've been“^ears here, trying to get all I can on the record about Dick. We've run into a couple of people recently on their recollections about Dick Dilworth.)

Well, personally, I always liked him. I wasn't that close; I guess, number one, I was new to the city during the Clark ad­ ministration. Mayor Clark, I think, was involved in what I would call the re-organization at that time. He was very in­ volved in that. By the time Dick Dilworth became mayor, there had been kind of a pattern set and things were moving in to what I'd call the implementation period. But I saw much more of Dick Dilworth, personally, than I did Joe Clark.

For instance, When we opened in that House of Correction, a new auditorium. We got th&t. They had no indoor recreation space. We opened that. We opened a new trades building and a new laundry and everything else, on the gounds of House of Correction. We opened a new auditorium at Holmesburg prison, inside, where they could play basketball and get some of the steam out of them, you know...you need those escape valves... to let out the emotions... and where we could put movies on 24.

for them, and get away from that just locked-up atmosphere.

Now, all of those...they were all opened in Dick Dilworth's administration. The detention center was...it would have been opened in Dilworth's administration, except he resigned in '61, wasn't it?

(WMP: I think it was.)

But, it was opened under Tate, who succeeded him. But he was always present there, and always was very warm and interested in coming up to see it, and would go around and mingle with your staff and say hello to them and so forth.

Onev^ other highlight that I ought to mention... I think its a historical highlight... it involves, I guess, my present boss now that I'm at Catholic Social Services, and Cardinal Krol is the top of the archdiocese. He came to Philadelphia from ClevelandVxhe was named archbishop in 1961. Now I had read that Bishop Neumann, who was bishop of Philadelphia in 1850, I think he ca^e to Philadelphia...and he wa$ bishop through the 1850ls ther^, up to almost 1860. One of his first acts when he was made i^ishop of Philadelphia, was to go to Moya- mensing prison and"talk with a man who was going, to hung, be­ cause in those days the gallows were inside of Moyamensing prison. \

So when this new archbishojxcame from Cleveland, I said to our Catholic chaplain, "You know, wouldn't it be nice if the new archbishop paid a visit toxi3olmesburg