Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

THURSDAY, 1 APRIL 1971

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

Sugar Experiment, &c., Bill (I APRIL] Questions Upon Notice 3421

THURSDAY, 1 APRIL, 1971

Mr. SPEAKER (Hon. D. E. Nicholson, Murrumba) read prayers and took the chair at 11 a.m.

PAPER The following paper was laid on the table:- Regulation under the Nurses Act of 1964 (Amendments to the Nurses Regulations of 1965).

QUESTIONS UPON NOTICE

RECOGNITION OF ARMY DRIVING LICENCES Mr. Houston, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Transport,- (!) For what reason is an ex-National Service soldier, who has driven Arm'f vehicles in Australia and Vietnam f0r some period of time, treated as a learner when applying for a civilian driving licence? (2) Why is a civilian licence not auto­ matically substituted for his Army licence in view of the driver training he would have received and of his experience in driving? Answers:- ( 1) "Ex-National Service soldiers hold­ ing military driving licences are treated no differently from other military personnel." (2) "If the Honourable Member has a particular case, would he give me the details."

STUDENT NuRsEs, TowNSVILLE GENERAL HOSPITAL Mr. Louergan, pursuant to notice, a>ked The Minister for Health,- ( 1) In the last twelve months for which figures are readily available, how many student nurses were posted to the Towns­ ville General Hospital, under the Regional Nursing Training Scheme, from (a) Ayr, (b) Proserpine, (c) Bowen and (d) Ingham and in what grades? (2) How many have since resigned and for what reasons? Answer:- ( 1 and 2) "The Acting Secretary of the Townsville Hospitals Board has supplied the following information in respect of student nurses attending at the Townsville Hospital under the Regional Training Scheme:-Ayr Hospital-Total attendances in different years in respect of 26 indi­ vidual student nurses were: 1st Year 23; 2nd Year, 4; 3rd Year, 3; 4th Year, 5: Total, 35. Of the 26 student nurses: 3422 Questions Upon Notice [1 APRIL] Questions Upon Notice

3 resigned without giving reasons; 4 training in police administration. Cadets, resigned to be married; I transferred to as part of their overall training, carry out another hospital; I was dismissed; I trans­ traffic control duty at pedestrian crossings ferred as an Assistant in Nursing due to near schools in addition to other instmc­ her impending marriage; 5 completed their tional exercises." training; II are still undergoing training. Proserpine Hospital-Total attendances in different years in respect of 13 individual student nurses were:-Ist Year, 8; 2nd ELECTRIC STOVE INSTALLATION ALLOW­ Year, 5; 3rd Year, 3; Total, I6. Of the ANCE, T.R.E.B. 13 student nurses: 4 resigned without giving Mr. Aikens, pursuant to notice, asked The reasons; I resigned to be married; 2 trans­ Minister for Local Government,- ferred to other hospitals; 6 are still under­ Has an investigation been made into going training. Bowen Hospital-Total allegations that some building contractors attendances in different years in respect of and other snide operators are receiving the I1 individual student nurses were:-1st $24 allowance made by the Townsville Year, 7; 2nd Year, 3; 3rd Year, 1; 4th Regional Electricity Board as an incentive Year, 3; Total, I4. Of the 11 student to householders to install electric stoves nurses: 2 resigned without giving reasons; and then making no comparable reduction 2 resigned to be married; 1 transferred to in the price of the house charged to the another Hospital; 1 completed training; 5 unsuspecting buyer and, if so, with what are still undergoing training. Ingham result? Hospital-Total attendances in different years in respect of I 5 individual student Answer:~ nurses were:-1st Year, 17; 2nd Year, 4; 3rd Year, nil; 4th Year, 1; Total, 22. Of "I do not know of any such investigation. the 15 student nurses: 3 resigned without However, I am advised that the Townsville giving reasons; 3 transferred to other Regional Electricity Board policy is to hospitals; 1 resigned to be married; 8 are make the allowance towards range wiring still undergoing training." available to the owner of the house who has paid for the wiring and installed the electric stove. If a builder erects a house for subsequent sale and equips it with an PoLICE PROMOTIONS electric stove, the allowance would be Mr. Newton, pursuant to notice, asked The payable to the builder who prior to sale is Minister for Works,- also the owner. The ultimate sale price of the house is of course solely a matter (1) How many promotions from senior between buyer and seller. In all cases the constable to sergeant 2/C have been made allowance is only paid on receipt of since Mr. Whitrod became Commissioner specific applications from the persons of Police? claiming it." (2) What was the number of such pro­ motions for the twelve months prior to his appointment? PAROLE FOR LIFE-SENTENCE PRISONERS Mr. Aikens, pursuant to notice, asked The Answers:- Minister for Justice,- (1) "Twenty-one from September 1, ( 1) In the last ten years, how many I970, on which date Mr. R. W. Whitrod criminals sentenced to life imprisonment assumed office as Commissioner of Police." were released on parole after 10 to 12 (2) "Fifty-six." years, 12 to 14 years, 14 to I6 years, 16 to 18 years, 18 to 20 years and over 20 years?

POLICE DUTIES (2) What was the reason for the dis­ crimination and did social, political, reli­ Mr. Newton, pursuant to notice, asked The gious, educational or other factors play Minister for Works,- any part in it? ( I) Are sworn-in constables now engaged in filing correspondence, a duty Answers:- which was previously carried out by very ( I) "Since January 1, 19~1, the foll~w­ junior cadets? ing releases to parole of pnsoners servmg (2) Are police cadets still being used on life sentences have been approved:- traffic crossings and for what other Number purposes are they being used? Years in Prison to Parole 10-12 l Answer:- 12-14 11 (1 and 2) "Yes. A number of con­ 14-16 6 stables with less than 12 months' service 16-18 1 are engaged on a rotational basis on mis­ cellaneous office work involving filing of 18-20 correspondence, as part of their overall Over 20 1" Questions Upon Notice [1 APRIL] Questions Upon Notice 3423

(2) "It is impracticable to detail the Queensland stood third among Australian reasons why in some particular case the Universities in the proportion of students Board recommends parole and in some who proceeded in minimum time, being other case it refuses to do so. The secrecy surpassed only by a small university and provisions of section 38 of the Offenders by one with severe quota restrictions. Probation and Parole Acts generally pre­ Action taken by the University of Queens­ vent any such course. However, the Chair­ land in the past year has included: (a) man of the Parole Board assures me that A very comprehensive report on Examining each case is considered on its individual Procedures, a copy of which I table. The merits. There are many factors which the discussion on earlier drafts of this report Board takes into account, one very and the introduction of progressive assess­ important one being the likelihood or ment has substantially reduced failure in otherwise of a prisoner becoming a useful some subjects. (b) Approval in principle citizen. The possible risk to the community by the Professorial Board of a proposal is a factor which the Board constantly bears that the teaching year be divided into in mind. Such matters as social, JXJlitical, semesters. This reorganisation of the religious or educational factors are never teaching year would enable a student who considered by the Board. The Board fails in one half of the year to repeat recommends · parole, if and when, on the the same or an equivalent subject in the information before it, the Board considers next semester and so to avoid losing a full it proper to do so, consequently it neces­ year through failure in a single examina­ sarily follows some prisoners are recom­ tion. (c) The first appointment of staff mended for parole after serving a less to a Tertiary Education Institute will occur term of imprisonment than others. In in late 1971. The purpose of this Institute many cases the Board refuses to recom­ will be to conduct research and to assist mend parole at any time. This particularly staff to improve teaching and examining. applies where the Board considers that (d) Standing Committees of Senate and there would be a substantial risk to the of the Professorial Board keep the examina­ community if a prisoner were paro.Jed." tion pass rates under review. (e) Although teaching ability has been a major criterion for promotion, committees of the Staff UNIVERSITY STUDENT WASTAGE Association and of the Professorial Board have been asked to consider how the Mr. Aikens, pursuant to notice, asked The various kinds of good teaching can be Minister for Education,- better assessed." ( 1) Has his attention been drawn to Paper.-Whereupon Mr. Fletcher laid upon an article in The Bulletin of January 16 the Table of the House the rep0rt wherein Sir Phillip Baxter, who was Vice referred to. Chancellor of the University of New South Wales for 14 years and is now a member of the Australian Atomic Energy Com­ T.A.B. OPERATIONS ON ANZAC DAY mission, trenchantly criticised what he HOLIDAY referred to as academic "slaughter" and Mr. Ahern, pursuant to notice, asked The wastage at Australian universities and con­ Treasurer,- demned those at the top for the patent inefficiency at universities from the faculty With reference to section 4 of "The Anzac Day Acts, 1921 to 1964," and the level to that of student failures? spirit of the Acts which lay down that (2) What action does he propose to most public facilities and places of amuse­ take, in the public interest, to rectify these ment stay closed until 1 p.m. or 1.30 p.m. things at the Queensland University and on Anzac Day unless otherwise exempted the James Cook University? by the Minister, will the off-course T.A.B. agencies this year open at 12 noon, having in mind the adverse public reaction Answers:­ when this occurred last year? (!) "Yes." Answer:- (2) "The Vice-Chancellor of the Uni­ versity of Queensland advises that, princi­ "The official observance of Anzac Day pally as a result of the concern of his is on Sunday (the day on which it falls). predecessor, Sir Fred Schonell, the Univer­ Monday is a public holiday and the normal sity of Queensland for the past decade arrangements for public holidays will has been alert to the problems of wastage apply." and to means of reducing such wastage. The establishment of a student counselling STUDENT-NURSE ACCOMMODATION, service and a university health service were GLADSTONE GENERAL HoSPITAL steps to alleviate the problems of individual students, especially those away from home. Mr. Melloy, pursuant to notice, asked The The University of Queensland in 1961 took Minister for Health,- the lead in instituting a conference for new (1) Is he aware of the substandard staff. One result was that a study by the accommodation which is provided for Commonwealth Department of Education student nurses at the Gladstone General and Science showed that the University of Hospital? 3424 Questions Upon Notice [1 APRIL] Questions Upon Notice

(2) Is he aware that nurses are required BLUE NURSING SERVICE to live and sleep in an old building in (a) Mr. Melloy, pursuant to notice, asked badly-furnished, drab, ill-lit 10 ft. by 8 ft. The Minister for Health,- cubicles with 8 ft.-high partitions and a ( 1) Has consideration been given to a complete lack of privacy? further increase in the financial assistance (3) Are these conditions an inducement to Blue Nursing Service hospitals ill to young girls to enter the nursing pro­ Queensland? fession? ( 4) What does he intend to do to (2) Has any investigation been made into the needs of the service, taking into provide an immediate improvement? consideration the valuable hospital service provided? If not, will he have such an Answer:- investigation made with a view to pro­ (1 to 4) "As far back as June, 1968, viding additional assistance? the Gladstone Hospitals Board was authorised to forward a detailed submission Answer:- for the upgrading of accommodation in the (1 and 2) "Following a substantial Nurses' Home at the Gladstone Hospital. award increase in the rates of wages pay­ Following on receipt of a submission from able to nursing staff in June, 1970, Officers the hospital, approval was given on June of my Department carried out investigations 6, 1969, for the Hospitals Board to have into the financial transactions of the sketch plans and an estimate of cost pre­ Nazarene Hospital at Redcliffe, 'Lauriston' pared for the remodelling of the existing at Ipswich and 'Greenhaven' at Southpoti, Nurses' Home. Advice from the Hospitals all of which are Hospitals for the Chronic­ Board on March 9, 1971, indicates that ally Ill and Sick Aged conducted by the the Board has now adopted a scheme for Blue Nursing Service. Subsequently, Cabinet approved the payment of a special the remodelling of the Nurses' Home and Annual Grant as from October 1, 1970, has instructed its architects to proceed to those organisations conducting approved with the preparation of the necessary Hospitals for the Chronically Ill calculated sketch plans and estimate of cost. For the at the rate of $2,000 per annum per full­ information of the Honourable Member I time trained nurse employed, up to the may say that I have had discussions from minimum number of trained nurses time to time with the Honourable Member required to be employed in accordance for Port Curtis, Mr. M. Hanson, who with the Commonwealth criteria for seems to appreciate fully the difficulties of patient' receiving intensive Nursing Home the Board in tailoring its services to the Care." changing conditions at Gladstone."

TREATMENT FOR CANCER AND VENEREAL (b) Mr. Wright, pursuant to notice, asked DISEASE, TOWNSVILLE GENERAL The Minister for Health,-- HOSPITAL In view of the important community Mr. Melloy, pursuant to notice, asked The role played by the Blue Nursing Service Minister for Health,- and as the Director-General of the Blue What degree and/or standard of treat­ Nursing Service, Dr. G. S. Udy, is reported ment is available at Townsville General to· have stated that the five Blue Nursing Hospital for the treatment of cancer, in homes in Queensland may have to close particular skin sun spots, and in the treat­ because of the withdrawal of the Govern­ ment of venereal diseases? ment subsidy, will he again consider restoring the subsidy of $1.50 per patient per day to prevent thi~ catastrophe? Answer:- "Treatment of the highest standard for Answer:- practically all cases of skin cancer is avail­ able at the Townsville General Hospital. "! refer the Honourable Member to a Only a very minute percentage of cases lengthy and detailed Ministerial Statement which present for the first time in an I made in this House on August 25, 1970, advanced stage are transferred to Brisbane. concerning this matter." Surgical treatment of most other forms of cancer is available at Townsvil!e. The cases transferred to Brisbane are those REPAIR OF RAILWAY HOUSES, BARCAL· needing radiotherapy by equipment which, DINE-W!NTON L!NE due to its sophistication and high cost, Mr. O'Donnell, pursuant to notice, asked must be concentrated in one centre, and The Minister for Transport,- also those conditions requiring more specialised surgery such as tumours of the With reference to Railway Department brain which need the services of nemo­ installations at Barcaldine and points west- surgeons. Complete treatment for venereal ( 1) Are cottages in need of extensive disease is available at Townsville." repair? Questions Upon Notice (l APRIL] Questions Upon Notice 3425

(2) Was a contract for repairs to the Am·wers:- amount of approximately $16,000 let to a ( 1) "The technique seems reasonably contractor? If so, (a) what was the con­ successful in removing hairs from the hind tractor's name and (b) has the contract legs and butt, which would otherwise have been deferred and, if so, what is the to be removed by washing or trimming." reason? (2) "Yes. Presence of hair is recog­ Answer:~ nized as a minor defect under the United (1 and 2) "A quotation was obtained States Department of Agriculture reinspec­ from Mr. P. J. Nelson of Jam bin to carry tion requirements at point of entry into out repairs to railway buildings on the the U.S.A. Hair could lead to rejection if section Barcaldine to Winton for a price in sufficient quantity or if widely dis­ of $16,303, which price was subsequently tributed, or if found in combination with increased by 6 per cent. No contract was other defects." ente.red into." (3) "I know of no work that has been carried out to establish any relationship. EXPORT OF VACUUM-PACKED MEAT However, salmonella organisms are com­ monly found on hides of cattle and it seems Mr. Aiken, pursuant to notice, asked The reasonable to assume the possibility of Premier,- transfer of salmonella on hair." ( 1) What quantity of Queensland vacuum-packed boneless meat is shipped to Asian ports and what reaction has this ARTIFICIAL INSEMINATION SERVICE type of product caused to standard export Mr. Aiken, pursuant to notice, asked The frozen meat? Minister for Primary Industries,- (2) What quantity of manufacturinp­ ( 1) To what degree does the Govern­ frozen meat is exported to these ports and ment trade in animal artificial insemina­ has vacuum-packed meat a future in com­ tion in Queensland? peting successfully in quality and price? (2) Because this method could prove a cheap method of access to top sires, par­ Answer:~ ticularly in regard to beef and sheep, what (1 and 2) "My Department does not plans are contemplated for the expansion have control over the export of meats from and greater use of this service to breeders? the Commonwealth, this being the responsi­ bility of the Commonwealth Department Answers:- of Primary Industry. Thus I am not able to quote figures of quantities exported, as ( l) "The Department of Primary Indus­ requested. I suggest figures would be best tries maintains an Artificial Insemination obtained by the Honourable Member direct Centre at Wacol which houses over !OD from the Australian Meat Board (the bulls of various beef and dairy breeds. Queensland Representative is Mr. J. Semen from these bulls is sold to Dairy Kennedy, Empire House, Queen and Wharf Artificial Insemination Co-operatives, Streets, Brisbane). I understand vacuum veterinary surgeons and other holders of packaged chilled beef ha~ been very Artificial Insemination Distribution Centre favourably received in Japan, being prefer­ licences within the State. Semen is also able to frozen cuts. Judging by interest supplied interstate and overseas. The being evinced by a number of Queensland Artificial Insemination Centre, as with all meat expmters, trade in chilled beef to Artificial Insemination Distribution Centres, Japan and possibly other Asian countries will purchase semen from interstate or is expected to have a very good future overseas for its clients and currently acts as and to compete favourably in quality the quarantine clearing house for British and price." Semen. The centre offers semen from proven sires of the three main dairy breeds, Australian Illawarra Shorthorn. REMOVAL OF HAIR FROM CATTLE Friesian and Jersey. It also has bulls of CARCASES the main beef breeds, particularly the Mr. Aiken, pursuant to notice, asked The Brahman whose semen is much in Minister for Primary Industries,- demand." (2) "I have recently re-constituted the ( 1) What success has been achieved by Artificial Insemination Advisory Committee the vacuum-cleaner method of removing to allow for representation from the Beef hairs from the hot carcases of cattle Stud Breeders and United Graziers' Asso­ slaughtered for the meat trade? ciation as well as the Dairy Stud Breeders, Queensland Dairymen's Organisation and (2) Has the presence of hair on beef the Artificial Insemination Federation. This for export heen a cause for the rejection committee has ~ad its first meeting and, of meat for the American market? after representatives have had consultations ( 3) Has there been any relationship of with their parent bod.ies, I expect to receive salmonella bacterial presence with the some useful suggestions for the further finding of hair on slaughtered carcases? development of artificial breeding of cattle 3426 Questions Upon Notice [1 APRIL} Questions Upon Notice

in the State. I am particularly interested supplied due to his being required to in the question of access to top sires and attend Court in respect of an action am awaiting the committee's recommenda· initiated against him. The matter is there­ tions on this aspect. Unfortunately, the fore sub judice and I do not propose to committee has only been constituted to disclose his name. There is some doubt consider beef and dairy cattle. I have not as to whether the existing legislation is had any representations for the Department sufficient to cover the different aspects to provide an Artificial Insemination arising from the dissemination of obscene Service for sheep but would certainly be literature. This is a matter which is prepared to consider them if made by receiving attention. If necessary, steps will interested bodies." be taken to have effective legislation introduced."

CANE TESTER's COURSE BUILDING, STOCK RETURNS BUNDABERG TECHNICAL COLLEGE Mr. Jensen, pursuant to notice, asked The Mr. Hungerford, pursuant to notice, asked Minister for Works,- The Minister for Primary Industries,- (1) In view of his Answer to my As primary producers have to produce Question on November 25, 1970, that the stock returns on three occasions annually, new building at the Bundaberg Technical viz. 21st schedule on January 31, pastoral College was well advanced and it was and statistical returns on March 31 and expected that the work would be com­ stock returns for income tax purposes on pleted and the building furnished for June 30, will he consider having the 21st occupancy at the commencement of the schedule altered in such a manner that it 1971 school year, will he give the reason falls due on June 30? why the building is still not completed? Answer:~ (2) Because of the serious lack of suit­ "January 31 was originally selected as able accommodation for students attending the most suitable date for the submission this college, will he expedite the com­ of stock returns as the fewest number of pletion of the work? cattle would be travelling in the first one or two months of the year. I would not Answer:- favour a change at this stage as the Stock (! and 2) "This project has reached Fund, which derives its primary income the stage of practical completion with the from stock assessments and Government exception of the electrical installation which endowment and special grants, has not the Electrical Contractor expects to com­ sufficient reserves at present, due to late plete in three weeks. The completion time payment of assessments to finance a change­ for this work was extended due to the over to a later date in the year." volume of work before the Department." RETURN OF UNSOLD BREAD TO MANUFACTURERS PURVEYING OF PORNOGRAPHY Mr. Davis, pursuant to notice, asked The Mr. Jensen, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Health,- Minister for Works,- (1) Is he aware of an article in The ( 1) With reference to the statement in Courier-Mail of March 31 which stated Sunday Truth of March 28 which was that, if the Food and Drug Regulations of attributed to a member of the Licensing 1964 were enforced, the return of bread Branch of the Police Department, what to bread manufacturers would be stopped are the names of the five men who are said and that housewives in Brisbane would to be conducting the Australia-wide porno­ not have to pay for the 80,000 loaves graphic racket under the syndicate name which are baked but not sold throughout of "The Big Five"? Brisbane each week? (2) In view of the reported statement (2) Will he instruct his departmental that these individuals are out of the reach officers to investigate this obnoxious prac­ of the police at present, will he indicate tice in order to ensure that there is no what action has been or is intended to be breakdown in the health of the people of taken to control these purveyors of this State? pornography? Answer:- Answer:- (! and 2) "I would point out to the ( 1 and 2) "The names of the persons Honourable Member that it is improper to who are considered to be actively engaged use health legislation for purposes other in the dissemination of obscene and/or than the protection of the health of the indecent literature are as follows:-­ public. If he is interested in the economic Norman Thomas Richards; Victor Colin aspect of the subject, he should explore Coote; Edward John Auton or Horton; other avenues. The main purpose of and Robert William Lewis Clark. The Regulation 97 (2) of the Food and Drug name of a fifth person has not been Regulations is to prohibit the return of Questions Upon Notice [1 APRIL] Questions Upon Notice 3427

bread and other articles of food by the WEIPA HosPITAL AND MEDICAL FACILITIES customer to the retail vendor and the Mr. B. Wood, pursuant to notice, asked regulation is enforced at this level. There The Minister for Health,- has been no evidence of any health hazard from the return of bread to bread manu­ ( 1) Has ministerial approval been given facturers. However, if evidence· to this to the appointment of an additional doctor effect is forthcoming, the position will be to the establishment of the Cairns Hos­ re-examined." pitals Board in order to allow increased attention to the Weipa Hospital? (2) Will his Department require !he SPEED LIMIT ON FINUCANE ROAD, extension of hospital facilities at Werpa CAPALABA before allowing a permanent appointment Mr. Baldwin, pursuant to notice, asked The to be made? Minister for Mines,- (3) What immediate improvements will In view of the tragic deaths of four be made to medical services at Weipa persons on a section of Finucane Road. following a deputation from the Queensland Capalaba, on March 30, will he, in colla­ Trades and Labour Council? boration with the Police Traffic Branch. again investigate the speed limits set on ( 4) In view of the urgent need, when that section of road with a view to giving will full hospital and doctor facilities be reconsideration to the petition sent to him available? by residents in the area and my written representations on their behalf early last Answers:- year, to have the speed limit reduced? (! to 3) "The Cairns Hospitals Board, on March 26, 1971, submitted a proposal Answer:- for the appointment of a medical officer "The speed limits on this section of road at Weipa and this is currently under con­ will be re-investigated. The Main Roads sideration within my Department." Department will collaborate with the ( 4) "I would refer the Honourable Police Department to investigate the cause Member to my Answer of March 12, 1971, of the recent accident involving the death in which I indicated that the Cairns of four people." Hospitals Board had been authorised by Cabinet to explore fully the needs of the Weipa area. Advice from the Hospitals IRRIGATION AND WATER SUPPLY CoMMIS· Board on March 26, 1971, indicated that SION WORKSHOP, MAREEBA this matter was under active consideration." Mr. Wallis-Smith, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Conservation,- Jn view of his recent Answer to the AcciDENTs CAUSED BY OvERTAKING ON Honourable Member for Cook that the LEFT-HAND SIDE OF RoAD retrenchment of staff at Mareeba irrigation Mr. Dean, pursuant to notice, asked The workshops was due to general lack of work Minister for Works,- in the workshops, will he consider upgrad­ ( 1) Does overtaking on the left, either ing this workshop by seeking extra main­ on lane-marked or unmarked roads, figure tenance and overhaul work from other as the cause or a contributory cause of Government departments within a reason­ road accidents? If so, to what extent? able area? If so, will he then consider an increase in the staff to cope with the (2) Do the police records of any such extra work which will result? incidents indicate any driver fault in this regard as arising from (a) unwise lane Answer:- changing (b) lack of understanding of lane "The workshop was established in markings or (c) impatience') Mareeba by the Irrigation Commission mainly to serve the Commission's vehicles Answers:- and plant used on construction and main­ ( 1) "Statistics on accidents due to tenance work in the region as well as improper overtaking are not kept in suffi­ servicing the installations on the project. cient detail by the Government Statistician The Main Roads Department and Forestry to identify the extent to which overtaking Department are adequately served in the on the left ,is a cause." area by their own workshops. The Mareeba Irrigation Commission workshop (2) "Statistics are not kept on the aspects already carries out work for other Govern­ raised. However, during the 12 months ment departments on request as well as ended December 31, 1970, 188 traffic urgent work for the Local Shire Council offence notices were issued for offences of and Electricity Board. The Commission changing lanes so as to cause danger com­ does not wish to maintain a workshop to mitted in the metropolitan area of Bris­ serve all departments and compete with bane. Information concerning the number private enterprise, representatives of which of these offences which resulted in accidents have claimed they have all the necessary is not available without extensive research, facilitie•." which I do not propose be undertaken." 3428 Questions Upon Notice [I APRIL] Questions Upon Notice

TRAFFIC LIGHTS, BEACONSFIELD TERRACE, licence under the Main Roads Acts SANDGATE and Regulations for an overloading Mr. Dean, pursuant to notice, asked The breach. The suspension of driving Minister for Mines,- licences generally is dealt with in the Has his attention been drawn to the Traffic Acts. (b) Warrants of commit­ death of a resident of "Eventide," Sand­ ment for terms of imprisonment are issued gate who was hit by a motor vehicle whilst by Clerks of the Court throughout Queens­ crossing Beaconsfield Terrace? If so, will land as default action for non-payment of he further consider my previous repre­ fines imposed by Magistrates. The infor­ sentations made by way of a Question on mation sought is not available from Main March 5, 1970, and have pedestrian­ Roads Department." actuated traffic lights installed at Beacons­ field Terrace for the benefit of "Eventide" (2) "Information not available for residents? reasons stated in Answer to (1 ) . "

Answer:- HEAD TEACHER'S RESIDENCE, CAIRNS "1 am aware of the accident and have OPPORTUNITY SCHOOL arranged for the Main Roads Department to re-examine the pedestrian and traffic Mr. R. Jones, pursuant to notice, asked volumes at this site, with a view to deter­ The Minister for Education,- mining the need or otherwise for pedestrian What is the present position in regard actuated signals." to providing a residence for the head teacher of the Cairns Opportunity School APPOINTMENT OF CHAPLAINS TO HIGH and when will tenders be invited and the SCHOOLS work commenced? Mr. Dean, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Education,- Answer:- In view of the many complex problems experienced by high-school students, will "A site is held for the erection of a he consider appointing chaplains to all residence and the project has been placed Queensland high schools to help students on the forward planning list for school overcome problems of tension? residences. The residence will be con­ structed when funds are available but no Answer:- date has as yet been fixed." "The welfare of high school students is a total community affair and involves parents and churches as well as the school SHOOTING INCIDENTS itself. It is felt that educational problems Mr. Bromley, pursuant to notice, asked as such are the province of the school and The Minister for Works,- guidance in such affairs is always available ( 1) How many shooting incidents or to students and parents from the principal. accidents in the categories of (a) fatal, deputy-principal, teachers and guidance (b) non-fatal, (c) suicide and (d) officers. Again a very important role in this regard is played by the Juvenile Aid attempted suicide have been investigated by Bureau who are ever ready to help when police officers in the year 1969-70 and in called upon by the school. The appoint­ the period 1970 to the latest available date? ment of chaplains to schools does not (2) What are the numbers in the above appear to be the best solution to problems categories in relation to (a) civilians and which exist." (b) policemen?

PUNISHMENT OF TRANSPORT DRIVERS FOR OVERLOADING BREACHES Answers:- Mr. R. Jones, pursuant to notice, asked (!) "Shooting incidents investigated by The Minister for Mines,- police-- 1969-70 1970 to date (1) In each year since 1965, how many transport drivers have (a) suffered sus­ Fatal 23 7 pension of licence and (b) been sentenced Non-fatal 115 58 to a term of imprisonment for overloading Suicides 60 47 breaches of the Main Roads Act? Attempted suicides 47 5" (2) How many of these transport (2) "The numbers as above stated relate operators were (a) owner-drivers and (b) to civilians with the exception of two employee-drivers? police officers included in the number of non-fatal shooting incidents in the period Answers:- 1970 to date. The above information i~ (!) "(a) Nil, as far as is known by the supplied from particulars presently recorded Main Roads Department. There is no at the Criminal Investigation Branch, provision for suspension of a driving Brisbane." Questions Upon Notice (1 APRIL] Questions Without Notice 3429

WEEK-END AND RELEASE-TO-WORK QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE GAOL SENTENCES Mr. Bromley, pursuant to notice, asked SHOOTING LICENCE REGULATIONS The Minister for Justice,- Mr. McKECHNIE: I ask the Minister for ( 1) With regard to week-end gaol Primary Industries: With Easter approaching, penalties and the release-to-work pro­ will he give as much publicity as possible gramme, how many offenders are now to the hunting regulations, in the earnest serving these terms and how many have hope that (i) lives will not be endangered by had extra week-end gaol penalties imposed spotlighters on public roads; (ii) stock and for (a) further offences and (b) failing to landholders will not suffer damage; and report at the prison on Friday nights? (iii) hunters will be aware of the forfeiture (2) In relation to those who have had of valuable firearms if used on a Sunday, extra week-end penalties imposed, what and in instances of borrowing firearms the method is used to impose the penalties? o'Nners will be forewarned? (3) What is the greatest number of week-ends served by any one offender? Mr. ROW: I appreciate the hon. member's interest in the conservation of our fauna. Answers:- On 26 March this year the Chief Fauna Officer, Mr. Roff, issued a statement in which ( 1) "Eight prisoners are at present he set out the responsibilities of would-be serving week-end detention. Seven prisoners have had week-end detention hunters, as well as some aspects of the Fauna converted to ordinary imprisonment for Conservation Act, as an indication to hunters further offences. Eight prisoners have that they have not a free hand to destroy failed to report as required on Friday game. At the same time, he specified certain night." protected birds and animals, outlined the need for responsibility in the use of firearms, (2) "Under the provisions of section 16 stressed the prohibition on hunting in a of the Week-end Detention Act defaulters sanctuary and on carrying firearms on Sun­ by failure to report are deemed to have days. However, in view of the hon. member's escaped from the legal custody of the interest, particularly in the three matters he Superintendent of the prison and if appre­ mentioned, I propose to make a further hended are accordingly charged under statement early next week setting out in section 3 3 ( 1 ) of the Prisons Act. Six detail the responsibility attaching to anyone prisoners have been so charged and brought who may be contemplating a hunting holiday. before a Court constituted by the Visiting Justice and a Justice of the Peace, where­ upon week-end detention was cancelled FREEDOM OF ExPRESSION, MEMBERS OF and in lieu a sentence of imprisonment PARLIAMENT imposed." Mr. TUCKER: I ask the Premier: In view (3) "Sixteen week-ends." of the oft-repeated statement by him and his ministerial and other colleagues that the main difference between Government and DROUGHT-RELIEF FODDER DELIVERIES Opposition members is that the former Mr. Bromley, pursuant to notice, asked supposedly have complete freedom of The Premier,- expression and action, do his words, "I have With regard to the drought-relief scheme nothing but utter contempt for the Govern­ inquiry involving fodder delivery to farmers ment members who have shown they were and graziers- not loyal to the Government". and the reported shouting in this Chamber of the (!) From what areas in New South member for South Coast, Mr. Hinze, of Wales and Queensland was the fodder sent "Mongrels, mongrels", indicate a freedom of and who were the carriers concerned? expression and action only in accord with his (2) What type of application for and Mr. Hinze's concept? drought relief was completed by those in need? Mr. BJELKE-PETERSEN: Some of the matters to which the hon. member refers (3) What authority for delivery was are events of the past. He refers to freedom given to the road hauliers? of expression on the part of hon. members ( 4) What department authorised and in this House. No-one has ever denied paid for the delivery and made other freedom of speech to anyone in this House. drought-relief payments? On the other hand, I point out that wh~n certain negotiations take place and certam Answer:- arrangements are made-in this instance ( 1 to 4) "I presume the Honourable between two organisations-and the matter Member is referring to an inquiry being is brought before the House, in those circum­ conducted by the Police Department into stances and under those conditions the certain claims for payment of freight Government should be entitled to expect the subsidies. As this is still the subject of a support of all hon. members on this side of police investigation, I do not propose to the House. It is this incident to which the furnish any information at this stage." hon. member has referred. 3430 Questions Without Notice [1 APRIL] Questions Without Notice

ELECTORAL REDISTRIBUTION GRAND OPERA SEASON, BRISBANE Mr. F. P. MOORE: I ask the Premier: Is M£. P. WOOD: I ask the Minister for it a fact that the Electoral Districts Bill has Education and Cultural Activities: Further to only been amended, and not defeated, as the my question of yesterday's date, as it seems Treasurer said yesterday in answer to a that there will be no season of grand opera question by me? Is it also a fact that there in Brisbane this year by the Australian Opera is no constitutional or parliamentary reason Company, this being the first time that there why this legislation cannot be proceeded has been no season since 1962, will he make with, without delay? an urgent approach to the Australian Opera Company to revise its programme and include Mr. BJELKE-PETERSEN: Here, again, the a season in Brisbane? hon. member will have to contain himself. Mr. l<'LETCHER: I shall be very happy to In due time he will learn the answer to his put forward the hon. member's point of view, question from the circumstances as they as it coincides with the feelings of many arise. opera lovers in Queensland. Doubtless there are good practical reasons for what has been Mr. BROMLEY: I ask the Premier: Has proposed. As I mentioned yesterday, a sort of he seen and read the editorial in this roster system was drawn up among the States, morning's "Courier-Mail" headed, "What and perhaps this is the basic reason why the now on boundaries", wherein it is stated, company is not coming to Queensland every among other very true things- year. However, I shall certainly have the "Yesterday morning's vote showed that matter investigMed. the majority will of Parliament is for an electoral system in which the more popu­ PRISON STAFF APPOINTMENTS lated areas of Queensland are treated reasonably equally, and the western areas Mr. MARGINSON: I ask the Minister for are given a concession. What is wrong Justice: Have applications been invited for the vacant positions of (a) Deputy Comp­ with that? ... troller-General of Prisons and (b) Superin­ ",Is Queensland at the stage where its tendent, Brisbane Prison? If these positions Government will overrule the wishes of a have not been filled, when is it likely that majority of Parliament?" appointments will be made? If so, and in any case, as a fair and honest Dr. DELAMOTHE: With the retirement redistribution should be carried out, will he of the Deputy Comptroller-General of immediately implement his 1969 election 'Prisons, Mr. Sochon, and the resignation of policy promise and allow the Bill to be pro­ Mr. Smith, the opportunity has been taken ceeded with and become law, thereby allow­ to review the establishment of the senior ing democracy to prevail, for a change, in administration of prisons. When decision& this State? are made, appointments will quickly follow.

Mr. SPEAKER: I feel that the question COMMENTS OF JAPANESE TRADE MISSION has already been answered, but I shall leave it to the Premier. Mr. BALDWIN: I ask the Minister for Mines and Main Roads: With reference to Mr. BJELKE-PETERSEN: As you have an article in the "Telegraph" of 24 March said, Mr. Speaker, the question has, in the under the heading "No Minerals Change··, main, already been answered. In answer to in which it is claimed that the Japanese that part of the question that hss not been mission from Mitsubishi set a minimum of answered, I have read the editorial men­ five years on this country being able to tioned. To the other part of the question, export certain processed ores to Japan and time will provide the answer. drew an unfavourable comparison between the standard of work expected from Aus­ tralian workmen and that of the scum of GRASS CLEARING, BURANDA-COORPAROO the Rising Sun, will the Minister assure the RAILWAY LINE people of this State that the "Nips" of Mitsubishi do not set the time-scale for Mr. BROMLEY: I ask the Minister for Queensland's progress? Further, with refer­ Trilnsport: As I have received many com­ ence to the statement in the same article plaints from residents in the vicinity of the attributed to Shinpei Omoto of a Japanese railway line from Ipswich Road, Buranda, to smelting firm which threatens the use of Coorparoo about the high grass, which is "superior" Japanese slaves to work in Aus­ 6 feet high in places, growing alongside the tralia, will he assure the people of (.,)ueen~­ line-the complaints mention fire hazards and Jand that he will resist any Japanese attempts say that rats and snakes have been seen to colonise this State? there-will he arrange for this grass to be cleared or cut? Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The hon. member appears to be making a speech. It is a Mr. KNOX: The hon. member's repre­ very lengthy question, although the Minister sentations will be investigated. may wish to answer it. Questions Without Notice (1 APRIL] Questions Without Notice 3431

Mr. CAMM: The interpretation of the Mr. N. T. E. HEWITT: I will be quite "Telegraph" article given by the hon. mem­ happy to comply with the request of the ber is obviously not his own. His question hon. member. is typical of many which he directs to Ministers and which I am sure are prepared GRAVEL ROYALTIES by an outside body that resents the prosperity of this State through the sale of minerals. Mr. WRIGHT: I ask the Minister for It is amazing to realise just how many Lands: Has the royalty on gravel from members of the Opposition seem to be leasehold land been increased from 5c to incapable of submitting a question without 10c a yard, an increase of 100 per cent.? notice unless it has been prepared for them If so, will he explain why this increase was by an outside body. considered warranted, bearing in mind that the royalty on coal, a far more valuable Opposition Members interjected. commodity, is still only 5c a ton? Mr. SPEAKER: Order! Mr. SULLIVAN: I did not quite hear the question. I ask the hon. member to Mr. CAMM: I have frequently said-1 put it on notice for tomorrow. repeat it now for the benefit of hon. mem­ bers opposite-that I have the utmost faith Mr. WRIGHT: I asked the same question in the workers of this State. Having been yesterday of the Minister for Mines and a worker myself in many spheres of activity, Main Roads. I am simply asking whether I claim that there are no better workers the royalty on gravel has been increased in the world than Australians. The hon. from 5c to 10c a yard. If it has, why member can put his own interpretation on is the increase warranted? the article in the "Telegraph". Mr. SULLIVAN: I ask the hon. member Mr. B. Wood: We have been asked to to put the question on notice. I appreciate provide questions without notice in writing. his concern, but I do not carry all these facts around in my head. Mr•. SPEAKER: Order! I desire there should be no misunderstanding about ques­ tions without notice. I have asked hon. DooR-TO-DOOR RAILWAY DELIVERIES members to make them brief. My only Mr. R. JONES: I direct a question to the criticism of the hon. member for Logan Minister for Transport. In view of the recent was that his question was more in the nature extension by the Railway Department to of a speech. It was not brief enough in R. D. freighting and transportion of goods the sense expected in a question without on a contract basis to Rockhampton and notice. Townsville, is it now expected to review the Mr. HOUSTON: I rise to a point of order. situation following the benefits accruing to Would you make it clear to the House that, big transport firms and not to the consumers where possible, "Hansard" desires questions in country areas of the State? to be written, even though they are without Mr. KNOX: The question contains a state­ notice? ment the accuracy of which I am not in a Honourable Members interjected. position to ascertain. The hon. member has certainly given no evidence of it. Mr. SPEAKER: Order! So far as the system of door-to-door Mr. Chalk: Tell Stanaway to type them deliveries is concerned, this has been out. expanded as the demand rises and to the Mr. F. P. MO'(}re: The Premier can't even extent that rolling stock is available. It has read yours. He can't pronounce his R's. provided tremendous benefits to quite a number of people in the State in both Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The hon. member improved service and freight reductions for Mourilyan knows the ruling governing which otherwise would not have occurred. question time. I do not propose to proceed If indeed there is any "compensating" by with the business of the House until hon. people between the railways and the con­ members come to order. sumer, that is a matter beyond my control.

WHARF FACILITIES, THURSDAY ISLAND RENT CONTROL Mr. B. WOOD: I ask the Minister for Mr. R. JONES: I direct a question to the Conservation, Marine and Aboriginal Affairs: Minister for Justice. Has his attention been Is he aware of the concern of a great drawn to an article in today's "Courier-Mail" number of people on Thursday Island about concerning the survey compiled by the the proposed new wharf facilities ther.e? Federal Social Services Department which They believe that the wharf will not be able claims that 50,000 pensioners are paying to carry reasonable weights and that storage exorbitant rents and that many are living in and carriage facilities will be quite inade­ substandard conditions? Taking into account quate. Would he have a very careful look these facts and his Government's recent at the specifications for the wharf to ensure repeal of rent control, is any remedial action its suitability, and could he provide me to be taken to rectify the exploitation of with a copy of those specifications? Queensland pensioners by high rentals? 3432 Questions Without Notice [I APRIL] Forestry Act &c., Bill

Dr. DELAMOTHE~ I have seen the RAILWAYS ACT AMENDMENT BILL article mentioned. However, I have not seen INITIATION the original report and I therefore am not in a position to comment on it in detail. Hon. W. E. KNOX (Nundah-Minister From my reading of the Press article, I for Transport): I move-- understand that the 50,000 pensioners 'That the House will, at its present referred to as living in substandard conditions sitting, resolve itself into a Committee of were spread over the whole of Australia. the Whole to consider introducing a Bill How many of them are in Queensland I have to amend the Railways Act 1914-1970 no way of knowing. Since the Landlord in a certain particular." and Tenant Act came into operation on Motion agreed to. 1 January, I have had only two complaints of excessive rentals from pensioners. FORESTRY ACT AMENDMENT BILL

INITIATION IN CoMMITTEE LEVEL CROSSING GATES, MITCHELTON (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. Hooper. RAILWAY LINE Greenslopes, in .the chair) Mr. LLOYD: I direct a question to the Hon. V. B. SULLIVAN (Condamine­ Minister for Transport. In view of the Minister for Lands) (12.3 p.m.): I move- rapidly increasing population in the suburbs "That a Bill be introduced to amend of Arana Hills, Gravely and Mitchelton and the Forestry Act 1959-1968 in certain as numerous children have to cross the particulars with a view to providing for railway line going to and from school, will the establishment of marine national he give further consideration to the installa­ parks." tion of boom gates at the railway crossings in Marin~ national parks represent a logical these suburbs? extensiOn of the terrestrial national parks Mr. KNOX: The policy of installing boom concept and of the conservation principles gates and flashing lights at road-railway cross­ ~hat this. concep~ embodies. In purpose and m functiOn manne parks do not differ from ings is one of long standing. A certain number their terrestrial counterpar.ts, though bio­ of boom gates and flashing lights are installed logical principles involved can be very dif­ each year according to the density of traffic, ferent. They are in fact particular types either road or rail, at particular level of. ~ational parks which complement the crossings. I will certainly have the further extstmg on-shore parks. For this reason request by the hon. member considered. the proposed legislation is being presented ~s ::~n amendment to the Forestry Act because STATEMENT BY PREMIER 1t ts under that Act that national parks are set aside and managed. Mr. HANSON: I ask the Premier: Has !he . initial groundwork and subsequent he noted a report in today's issue of "The gmde-!mes for the establishment of marine Australian" in which he is reported as say­ parks in Queensland Were set out in the ing, "I have nothing but utter contempt for report of the Marine National Parks Com­ the members of the Government who showed mittee. This committee was formed in 1968 last night they are not loyal to the Govern­ to e~amine all aspects of the proposals ment or their mates."? If so, and as this submttted to the Government by the National statement has appeared in other news media, Parks Association of Queensland for the how does he reconcile this statement with establi~hment of marine national parks. The his espoused basic tenets of Christianity, commtttee consisted of the then Conservator which are embodied in the simple words of of Forests as chairman, the Under Secretarv. the Divine Master, "Love thy neighbour"? Department of Mines, the Director of the Department of Harbours and Marine, a Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The question is m~~ber of the Land Administration Com­ out of order. mtsswn and the Director General of Tourist Services, and its report states at the verv RAILWAY DEPARTMENT POLLUTION OF outset that- · BREAKFAST CREEK "All members of the committee con­ Mr. DAVIS: I ask the Minister for Trans­ sid~r the principle of establishing marine port anot.her question in .the continuing story natwnal parks to be sound and necessary." of pollutiOn of Breakfast Creek by the Rail­ The guide-lines suggested by the committee way Department: As a period of six months h~ve been closely followed in preparing the has elapsed since I last asked a question Bill presently under consideration. The need about t?e pollution of Breakfast Sreek by for conservation of the marine environment the Railway Department, what oction has was hig~lighted at the first World Conference been taken by the Minister to stop this on. Natwnal Parks held at Seattle in 1962. obnoxious practice? Thts conference resolved tO-- "Invite the Government of all those Mr. KNOX: A considerable amount of countries having marine frontiers and action. other appropriate agencies, to examide as a Forestry Act (l APRIL] Amendment Bill 3433

matter of urgency the possibility of creat­ and localised management to ensure, amongst ing marine parks or reserves to defend other things, that recreational uses do not underwater areas of special significance negate the scientific values of particular areas. from all forms of human interference, and As yet, large marine areas of this State ::~re further recommends the extension of exist­ virtually unaffected by the pressures of our ing national parks and equivalent reserves society but these pressures are increasing. with shorelines, into the water to the Fortunately we are in a position to act in 10-fathom depth or the territorial limit or time and this is what we are now doing. some other appropriate off-shore boundary." What I have said so far embodies the general aims and objectives of the Bill and, Several countries have acted on this resolu­ I trust, puts them in some perspective. I tion, prominent amongst them being the hope I have managed to impress on hon. United States of America (which had declared members the necessity for, and importance of, underwater parks prior to 1962), Japan, South marine national parks. What follows relates Africa, Tanzania and Kenya. It is seen there­ more specifically to the particular provisions fore that marine parks throughout the world of the Bill. The Bill sets out the procedure are in their infancy and that, despite the to be followed in the making of recommenda­ growing concern for the quality of man's tions for park reservations and the actual environment, the sea has been neglected in declaration of marine national parks. the appraisal of our surroundings. This is not surprising, for the sea hides its scars from It provides that all proposals for the superficial examination. However the words setting aside of marine national parks shall of Lord Byron- be referred by the Conservator of Forests, "Man marks the earth with ruin, for concurrence, to the Land Administration Commission; the Under Secretary, Depart­ ·'His control stops with the shore." ment of Mines; the Director of Harbours and are no longer true and, like the land, the sea Marine; and the permanent head of the also is subject to the ravages of modern department of the Government of the State industrialisation. Moreover, the sea by its to which the State Fisheries Branch i~ very nature-living and for ever in' motion attached. These are the four departments and knowing no artificial barriers-tends to of the Government of the State which will promote the spread of polluting agents. Since be directly concerned with areas likely to the land is the source of nutrients and be sought for marine national parks. In pollutants alike, it follows that it will be addition, the views of any other Govern­ highly desirable to site marine parks adjacent ment department of the State whose interest!> to terrestrial parks which afford protection are likely to be affected are required to be and provide land bases essential to the support ascertained and considered. of these off-shore areas. In the event of any of the four depart­ Apart from the aspect of conservation one ments mentioned not concurring in the pro­ of the major purposes of marine parks i~ the posal, provision is made for the basis on use,_ r~creation ar:d enjoyment of the public. which the matter may be further considered Facilities for enJoyment of the fascinating and resolved. This is the same provision worl~ beneath the sea are rapidly advancing as applies to proposals for terrestrial national and mcreasmg numbers of people are taking parks, and which has applied to such pro­ advantage of them. But marine parks are not posals since the inception of the Forestry directed to recreatio_n only, and the Forestry Act. Act provides for natwnal parks to be set aside The provision which amends section 29 also for scientific and historic purposes and of the principal Act, under which authority allows them t? _b:: managed for those pur­ is given to set apart and declare national poses or as pnmittve areas. parks, proposes a dual procedure. Firstly, In many cases these considerations will be it is proposed that the Governor in Council of equal importance to the recreation aspect by proclamation may declare an area or in the dedication and management of parks. areas extending seawards from the mean high-water mark at spring tides along the A~~ordingly, _though_ it is to be expected that, Imt!ally, manne natwnal parks will relate to maritime boundary of any part of the ter­ the Great Barrier Reef, they will also encom­ ritory of the State to be a marine park area. Secondly, it is proposed that, subject ~ass such diverse habitats as rocky shore­ lmes, mangroves, mud flats and estuaries. to the procedures to which I have already Many . of these, though not offering the referred, the Governor in Council may, on aesthetic appeal and recreational outlets of the recommendation of the Conservator of the coral reef, are of great importance to the Forests, set apart and declare as a national conservation programme and the maintenance park- o~ th: ma~ine. environment.. They may have (A) any Crown land within a marine histone, scientific or educational interests all park area, of which are important to the nation and to (B) any part of the sea-bed within a the development of a truly Australian culture. marine park area and the waters above !he classi~cation_ and zoning system employed that part, or m terrestnal natiOnal parks will in time be (C) any part of the waters within a used in marine parks to allow fbr specialised marine park area 3434 Forestry Act [1 APRIL] Amendment Bill

which he considers to be of scenic, scientific collection. This means that only hand-line or historic interest, or to be required to fishing (and this includes rod and line) would be so set apart in the interests of animal be allowed. Fishing of this nature is directed life or forest products therein. largely towards the free-swimming species Any off-shore national park so set apart many of which will move freely in and out will be assigned a name which includes the of the park. word "marine". The declaration of a marine Mr. Tucker: You have excluded spear-fish­ park area or areas, within which marine ing? national parks may be set aside, does not claim to create a marine national park by Mr. SULLIVAN: Yes. I shall come to that reason of its being Crown land as is done later. with terrestrial national parks, but relies on If fishing proved to be detrimental to the a marine park area as being territory within park in any particular case, it would not be the control of ·the State and within which permitted. I can assure the Committee that the State controls the waters above. major fishing interests will be taken fully Another provision of the Bill relates to into consideration in determining marine the declaration of areas for special purposes national park proposals. Furthermore, all within national parks. It is proposed to proposals for the setting aside of areas as extend, to marine national parks, the existing marine national parks have to be referred classification system, which allows for primi­ to the permanent head of the department of tive, primitive and recreation, recreation, the State to which the Fisheries Branch is scientific, and historic areas, as the need assigned for his concurrence or otherwise. for specialised management of particular The marine national parks committee was areas will undoubtedly arise. strongly opposed to spear-fishing in marine There are provisions concerned with fish­ parks. This decision was based on a number ing, both commercial and recreational, in of factors, not least of which was the fact marine national parks. It is proposed to that spear-fishing tends to produce in fish provide that commercial fishing by means populations a fear of man, and this is an of a hand line only may be permitted undesirable situation when the recreational under permit from the Conservator of Forests aspect of viewing such animals in their in marine national parks in waters other natural habitat is a significant factor in than those declared as a primitive area or reserving the area. Spear-fishing is also a a scientific area. Such permit would be selective means of fishing, with the potential in addition to the normal licence require­ to inflict irreversible damage on populations ments of the Fisheries Act 1957 to 1962. of sought-after species. The committee This was recommended by the Marine received submissions from a number of spear­ National Parks Committee in those cases fishing clubs in which it was pointed out that where a marine park encloses a considerable club regulations often impose restrictions on area. the number of fish taken. That is a com­ The committee's report further went on mendable attitude, but not all spear-fishermen to point out that this should be watched belong to these clubs. closely, as one of .the functions of a marine There is also a provision adding a further national park is to act as a breeding and subsection to section 43 of the Principal Act refuge area for organisms which are subject to provide that if a marine national park is to exploitation outside the park. The com­ declared over an existing lease, licence or mittee also recommended that recreational authority related to mining duly granted by, fishing hy means of a hand line to which or on behalf of, the Crown, the rights of the not more .than two hooks are attached be per­ lessee or licensee are preserved, and in exer­ mitted where desirable. It was accepted cising such rights the lessee or licensee would that this was an important recreational not be in breach of the provision of the Act pursuit that should be allowed. relating to unauthorised interference with It is proposed that the Conservator of forest products in a national park. Forests may, by notification in the Gazette, Provision is made that regulations for the permit the taking of fish for recreational control of traffic in or over the waters of a purpo~es by means of a hand line to which marine national park shall not be made under not more than two hooks are attached, and the Forestry Act but shall be made at the the collection for those purposes, in a manner request of the Conservator of Fore~ts or prescribed, of bait in a marine national park. otherwise under the Queensland Marine Acts, Such notification shall stipulate where and and that before any regulation is made under when such fishing may be carried out, and these latter Acts directed to controlling traffic it is required to be exhibited in or adjacent in or over the waters of a marine n~tional to the national park concerned. This avoids park tre Director of Harbours and having to issue individual permits for recre­ Marine and the Conservator of Forests, or ational fishing, which would subject amateur their officers, shall consult thereon. fishermen to inconvenience and involve These provisions meet the wishes of the departmental officers in time-consuming and Department of Harbours and Marine which costly paper work. considers that any regulation controlling It is proposed not to permit net fishing, navigation of vessels should be promulgated although small cast and scoop nets of a under the Queensland Marine Acts, primarily stipulated size may be permitted for bait from considerations of navigational safety. Forestry Act [1 APRIL] Amendment Bill 3435

This is considered to be desirable, and the (vii) make it an offence to occupy, reside Director of Harbours and Marine will regu­ upon or enclose, without authority, any late in this matter, at the request of, and/ or waters within a national park, and give after consultation with, the Conservator of authority for the removal of trespassers in Forests. The saving provisions of the unlawful occupation of the waters of a principal Act are extended to in~lude, in national park; addition to the Acts already prescnbed, the (viii) amend references to "Court of Petroleum (Submerged Lands) Act of 1967, Petty Sessions" to "Magistrates Court", and the Fisheries Acts 1957 to 1962, the Pollution provide authority for a forest officer to of Waters by Oil Acts 1960 to 1961, the seize any equipment or gear for interfering Queensland Marine Acts 1958 to 1967, and with forest products or for the purpose of the Harbours Acts 1955 to 1966. carrying on activity prohibited in a national It is further provided that to the extent park, which equipment is on a national that there is any inconsistency between the park without authority, and for the subse­ provisions of the Forestry Aot and the quent disposal thereof; Petroleum (Submerged Lands) Act of 1967, (ix) prescribe offences and the method of the provisions of the latter Act shall preva!l. determining the Magistrates Court which This ensures that the proviSions of the Bill shall have jurisdiction when an offence is do not detract from what has been agreed to committed in a national park at a place between this State and all other States and which is not within a Magistrates Court the Commonwealth in relation to the search district; for petroleum. (x) give power to regulate with respect Another provision extends the existi!'lg to the depositing or discharging of effluent, authority of a forest officer, between sunnse rubbish, garbage, etc., on State forests, and sunset, to enter and inspect any place timber reserves and national parks, or in where there are any forest products or quarry waters adjacent to national parks, and with material which have been got or interfered respect to matters related t9 the manage­ with or which are reasonably suspected of ment and control of national parks and having been got or interfered with contrary activities therein. to the Act and to seize, take away and detain them pending proceedings-to include, in I think it will be clear to hon. members addition, the seizing, taking away of the from this account of what is in the Bill that vehicle or vessel wherein they are found and it makes provisions for an important step any equipment or gear which he reasonably forward in the field of conservation. It suspects was used in such unauthorised inter­ recognises the need for the application of ference. It also removes the existing authority additional conservation measures to off-shore of a forest officer to enter any dwelling place areas, and it recognises the recreational poten­ (except with the permission of the occupier) tial and the scientific and historic values that unless he has first obtained from a justice a exist in such areas. In essence, it recognises warrant to enter. the immeasurable value of our national parks and opens up a new horizon to them. Other provisions of the Bill- (i) strengthen the definition of "forest I commend the motion to the Committee. products" with respect to n~tional parks,_ to Mr. O'DONNELL (Barcoo) (12.24 p.m.): make it clear that such mcludes manne If a vote were taken on the basis of the title life and all other material comprising the of the Bill, I am sure that hon. members land or sea-bed therein or the waters above would be virtually unanimous that the imple­ that sea-bed; mentation of the measure is very desirable (ii) include a number of definitions indeed. However, having regard to the full necessary to define various terms used in ramifications of such a proposal, one is relation to marine national parks; justified in asking why it has been brought in (iii) extend the functions of the Depart­ as an amendment to the Forestry Aot. It ment of Forestry to include the manage­ could well be a conservation matter associated ment of forest products in national parks, with primary industries. and the conduct of investigation and research into the establishment and man­ At the outset I point out that I do not agement of national parks; endorse a word that cropped up in the Minister's remarks. It was completely wrong (iv) authorise the Conservator of Forests in the context in which he used it. I to cause to be made surveys of waters (as refer to the word "terrestrial", which relates well as lands) for the purpose of ascertain­ to Earth. The Romans used it-"terra", the ing whether .they are suitable to be set Earth. It embraces the whole of the Earth. apart for the purposes of the Act, and When the Minister talks about certain national provide authority for entry for that parks being "terrestrial" and others not purpose; being "terrestrial", he implies that the latter (v) extend the authority to amalgamate are outside this world. If that word is contiguous national parks to include marine used in the Bill, he should delete it very national parks; quickly. If he is going to talk about on­ (vi) apply to marine national parks the shore national parks along the coastline or same restriction on their revocation as its environs, and others off the coastline. presently applies to terrestrial national he must refer to the latter as "marine"' parks; or "oceanic" parks. He cannot get out 3436 Forestry Act [1 APRIL] Amendment Bill

of iL I do not want there to be an error being carried out there is for the benefit in the Bill right from the start. It would of the people who set it up, but the results be laughable. of the research are made available to inter­ Queensland has a natural environment for ested persons on the mainland of the United marine national parks and has advantages States or in other countries of the world. over the other States of Australia. It is therefore very important that we take the This brochure sets out the achievements lead in this field. The Minister's significant of the Lummi Indian tribe, which was words were "areas embracing marine national destitute until aquaculture was introduced. parks". It is important that we have marine These Indians, formerly the poorest of the park areas embracing national parks. Hon. poor, are now in the millionaire class in members will see why, as I proceed to enlarge local industry. Time does not permit me on that important aspect. to go right through this brochure, but it illustrates what can be done by aquaculture. rt is also very imperative to realise that I shall make it available to anyone who tremendous interest has been taken in wants to read it. Where better could we Queensland by those I would refer to as conduct research and obtain information than pioneers in various types of on-shore and within the preserves of marine national parks off-shore activities, including some not that could be set up along the coast of referred to by the Minister. In the estab­ Queensland? lishment of any areas it is essential that we remember those pioneers who by their The Deputy Leader of the Opposition, in activities helped to conserve our national discussing this matter with me, passed the heritage and certain coastal areas for the significant remark, "I do not think there benefit of the State and the tourist industry. has been a proper survey of the littoral The Deputy Leader of the Opposition has and oceanic features of the coast of our discussed that point with me. State". He suggested that I should put forward a plea for an aerial survey of In drawing up proposals for a recent the Great Barrier Reef. I know that such A.L.P. convention, we introduced the word a survey would be costly, but it would be "aquaculture". In association with the of great benefit to the State. If the photo­ establishment of the proposed national parks graphs were in colour, they would give a we should undertake development of fair indication of the varying depths of aquaculture. Those people who were with water surrounding the reefs. me overseas on the tour last year will remember our visit to the Sea Life Park I wish to dwell for a few moments on in Hawaii. what are referred to in another brochure as Commercial Test Ranges. Many of the Mr. W. D. Hewitt: You are shooting a experiments carried out are of benefit not good speech of mine to pieces. only in marine biology but in almost any other field of research that can be thought Mr. O'DONNELL: Tear it up. of. For example, the capabilities and services The time at my disposal is too brief to of the Makai Range are listed as follows:- eulogise the activities we saw there, but I Development of undersea operating tech­ have here four brochures that were given niques; to us. The first one refers to the pioneers Test and evaluation of underwater equip­ of Hawaii's Showcase of the Sea. The ment; Minister for Lands may like to look at these. This one is an excerpt from "Reader's Man-in-sea saturation diving systems; Digest". It depicts a park set up by an Surface and subsurface support for client enthusiastic young husband-and-wife team, test teams; and illustrates various activities. It is very Search, recovery, and salvage systems: interesting indeed. I know that it is a test and field operations; private concern but it highlights the impor­ Consultation m field operational tance of having marine parks enclosing or problems; adjacent to national parks. Undersea construction: consultation and In setting up a national park, of course. field service; we are concerned with conservation, but it Operational support for physiological and is idle and useless to simply set up an psychological research programmes; ornamental site. Marine scientists have a Underwater surveys for cable and pipe wonderful opportunity to play their part in laying; national park areas. Scientists are allowed to enter national parks to engage in research Field and laboratory simulation of for the benefit of mankind. Such oppor­ marine environments for testing purposes. tunities will be available for them in marine Of course, all those matters are divorced parks, but, in addition, there will be scope from forestry; nevertheless, they are of great for development. importance and should not be forgotten in The Sea Life Park at Makapuu, the main the establishment of marine national parks. island of Hawaii, attracts 500,000 tourists per annum. It is a scene of great activity, To revert to the Lummi Indians, I point involving marine biologists and other inter­ out that if they were permitted to further ested people. No doubt the important work develop aquaculture in Puget Sound they Forestry Act [1 APRIL] Amendment Bill 3437

could produce the equivalent of the total interested people, and those who needed ·the annual fish consumption of the United States knowledge, the habits of denizens of the of America. deep, the way in which vegetation flourished, Perhaps within the next century or so the and the many other aspects of underwater world will witness a complete transformation life that are virtually unknown. in its method of obtaining food. I have We will examine the Bill with great interest. no doubt that in the not so distant future the It would seem from the Minister's outline of population of the world will depend on the it that certain provisions are controversial. sea for its food to a much greater degree There will be certain criticism from fishermen, than at present. It will be remembered that whether they be surface fishermen or under­ during World War II the opposing nations water spear-fishermen, The petroleum agree­ made strenuous efforts to prevent the trans­ ment provisions will have to be scrutinised port of food to one another. The sea offers a very closely. However, I assure the Minister >Ource of food that has not previously been that, generally, the Opposition welcomes the greatly exploited. To illustrate my point, I Bill. will quote again from the brochure published by the Lummi Indian Business Council, in (Time expired.) which it says- Mr. KAUS (Hawthorne) (12.45 p.m.): It is "The Lummi Council estimates that indeed a pleasure to have an opportunity to within the next decade the Lummi Acqua­ say a few words on this Bill. I greet its culture Project will create 500 new jobs introduction with great enthusiasm. The on the reservation thus winning a major Minister is looking to the future in estab­ socio-economic victory for maintaining and lishing marine parks, which have not been enhancing the future of the reservation. considered in the past. The income from this tribal industry will have a major economic impact of millions The areas will be designated and will be of dollars on Whatcom County and the given all the protection that is required. neighbouring communities. The council I do not think the Minister outlined the also expresses a hope that their efforts areas that will become marine national parks. may be used to help and inspire other No doubt he will do so at the second-reading tribes that have similar natural and human stage. I hope that these parks extend right resource potential." to the coastline so as to provide breeding grounds for different species of fish, crabs, By this legislation we are providing guide­ prawns and other forms of sea life. lines to develop the potential of our coast­ line. We desperately need to undertake These areas must be protected from com­ research work on our land fauna and flora, mercial exploitation. In this regard, I have but tremendous research is also needed into my own ideas on oil drilling. In addition, these aspects of the sea. Research work on we must be careful about the taking of fish, basic facts about the sea is virtually negligible. shells and coral. In America, the sale of coral We are starved for information because we is quite a large commercial undertaking. In are short of marine biologists to carry out one area off Hawaii, pink coral is made into much of the work that must be done. jewellery and sold. Although, this would be quite a profitable commercial venture, I As we progress we will tap the potential should not like to see that type of business wealth of the ocean. Controversy has raged thrive along our coast. I am a little surprised about drilling for oil and minerals. I have to see the shells that are sold. No doubt their referred to the harvesting of aquatic food, but sale will be covered by the Bill. Because of we· should not forget sea-derived pharmaceut­ the sale of triton shell, we have had trouble ical drugs that will be used to an ever greater with the Crown of Thorns starfish. Of extent in medical research into the world's course, a report on this matter which was diseases and illnesses. tabled in both the Commonwealth Parliament Oceanariums, when established, will be and this Parliament on Tuesday, discloses available for the benefit not only of scientists that the infestation is not as bad as some but also laymen interested in conservation people think. and such matters. In addition, they will be In addition, the development of tourism a wonderful tourist attraction. I have can lead to the destruction of areas as a referred to the fact that 500,000 people a year result of pollution. This is another matter visit the Hawaii establishment. It is a remark­ that much be watched carefully. I should able place and attracts the interest of benevo­ like to see the Great Barrier Reef developed lent organisations and people. In one instance into a bigger and better tourist area, even a yacht worth probably the best part of though there may be problems in this regard. $1,000,000 was donated. To a certain extent it was an embarrassment. because it cost Mr. Bromley: You are against oil drilling? $40,000 a year to run. However, this organi­ sation accepted it and they use it wherever Mr. KAUS: I did not say I was against oil possible. They have devised engineering drilling. wonders for their experiments. What a Mr. Bromley: Why don't you commit your­ wonderful new field of education we have self? in the world under the sea. They even introduced under-water TV to show The CHAIRMAN: Order! 3438 Forestry Act [1 APRIL] Amendment Bill

Mr. KAUS: The Minister said that certain Resources", and Chapter 7 is, "Report of areas are not protected and that this will the Task Group on Role of State and Local be covered by the Bill. Queensland has Governments". 2,000 miles of coastline, which is a large area Mr. Bromley: Read that one out. to look after. I imagine that the various local authorities have certain responsibilities The CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. and that we, as a State, also have some. member and his adviser from Norman might like to get together during the luncheon I an: glad _that amateur fishermen, using recess. hand hnes, w11l be allowed to fish in these :'reas. They will not do much damage Mr. KAUS: I conclude by quoting this m any area. recommendation of the Task Group-- Mr. Sullivan: Recreational. "The State should, within the next year. initiate a Statewide recreational study Mr. KAUS: Recreational. No doubt these enumerating ocean recreational areas and people will be under licence, anyway. activities and relating these to the shoreline and shoreline planning; this study should Besid~s fishing, ~here are many other types be updated at five-year intervals." of manne recreatwn, such as boating and surfing, and I am quite sure that the Minister I am pleased that the Bill has been intro­ would not prevent people f.rom engaging duced, and I give it my support. in those activities in marine national parks. Mr. F. P. MOORE (Mourilyan) (12.54 Another question I should like to ask the p.m.): In his introductory speech the Minister is whether marine biologists and Minister said that action along the lines now other scientific workers will be allowed to being taken was advised at the Seattle work in marine parks. conference in 1962. It has taken a long Mr. Sullivan: Yes. I mentioned that time for the Government to take such action. certain areas will be set aside for scientific Possibly the problems that arose from oil purposes, which will allow for this type exploration in 1968-69 forced the Govern­ of work to be carried out. ment to give consideration to marine national parks. The important thing is that it is Mr. KAUS: That is very good; I am a good step that the Government is now pleased to hear it. taking, and the Minister deserves to be congratulated on it. Whilst other hon. members and I were overseas recently, the hon. member for I disagree with the Minister's statement that Barcoo made a few remarks on acquaculture. there will be no great difference between I have here a book entitled "Hawaii terrestrial and aquatic or marine national and the Sea", for which I sent away. I parks. I ask the hon. member for Barcoo to do not know whether the Minister has a excuse me for using the word "terrestrial'·. copy of it. If he has not, I would be Although its connotation may be wrong, it is only too pleased to make mine available to commonly used in spoken English. In fact, him. It is described as "Report to the there is a great difference between "terres­ Governor's Task Force on Oceanography". trial" and "marine" national parks. The The letter submitting the report to the aquatic environment is not fully understood Governor of Hawaii contains this passage- at this stage, and it certainly has not been studied to any great extent. The hon. mem­ 'The initial concept of the Task Force ber for Barcoo, the Opposition's shadow was to analyse the Federal Government's Minister for Lands, made that point, and he recently published report, 'Our Nation also showed that his recent overseas tour and the Sea', to determine the best undoubtedly was of benefit to him. I suggest direction for Hawaii's efforts and to that in any future tour he might take some examine how the State's unique charac­ of the junior members of the Opposition's teristics could best be integrated into the lands committee with him. Federal Government's overall programme. The study evolved into an even more Mr. SuJiiwn: Do I detect some disagree­ comprehensive examination of the several ment between the hon. member and the divisions that constitute a complete marine chairman of the Opposition's lands committee affairs programme." as to the meaning of the word "terrestrial"? Some of the headings under which the report Mr. F. P. MOORE: I shall not take that has been compiled are interesting. Chapter I point any further. is, "Summary Report of the Advisory Group". Chapter 2 is, "Report of the Task Group The proposed investigation into the boun­ on Research and Development". Under that daries of national parks is not surprising, heading are quite a few subheadings. because the fixing of boundaries is very Chapter 3 is, "Hawaii's Role in the Pacific important. Repulse Bay probably will be Basin". Chapter 4 is, "Report of the Task excluded from any of the national parks, as Group on Recreation". Chapter 5 is, the mining companies have seen fit to set up "Report of the Task Group on Environmental their drilling equipment in the area in antici­ Quality". Under this heading comes pollu­ pation of being granted permission to drill. tion, which can be caused not only by rivers It is important that boundaries should be but also by tourists. Chapter 6 is, "Report discussed not only with the committee men­ of the Task Group on Living and Nonliving tioned by the Minister but also with local Forestry Act [1 APRIL] Amendment Bill 3439 residents. Although an experimental and should be scientists who know the environ­ scientific background is important when an ment well, and they should be paid a hand­ investigation is undertaken, the Minister some salary. It is not enough for a knows that local knowledge can be of great scientific study to be carried out for only assistance to any highly qualified and very one or two years; all studies must be on intelligent people who may carry out studies a long-term basis. Unless an attractive salary is offered, we will not get the right type in terrestrial national parks. of person applying for the job of ranger. The reports of the C.S.I.R.O. make it Possibly the positions could be offered to obvious that much study of terrestrial poor parliamentarians who have no private national parks remains to be done, and incomes, as most Government members have. marine national parks open a wide avenue for additional study. There is virtually no end to It is very important for a ranger to have it, and the aquaculture mentioned by the a good practical knowledge. If scientists hon. member for Barcoo is very important. are appointed as rangers and are referred As I said earlier, advice is needed as to types to as scientific rangers, or given some other and species in the environment, and local title, they should liaise with the local people. knowledge could assist those in authority to As our shadow Minister for Lands (Mr. make a wise choice when they establish O'Donnell) has pointed out, aquaculture is marine national parks. important. I believe that farming of the sea-bed could be of great benefit to humanity. I expect that later the appointment of Why, then, should we in Queensland, or in rangers-they may be called "forest rangers" Australia, Jag behind other nations of the or "aqua rangers"-will be mentioned, and world in this field? Queensland is fortunate that is a matter of some importance. in having off its coastline the Great Barrier Mr. Sul1ivao: Sea rangers. Reef, but unfortunately, in the study of the ocean-bed, particularly on the Great Barrier Mr. F. P. MOORE: Yes. Pollution will Reef, we trail behind other countries of the have a serious effect on marine national world. I think that has been proved beyond parks. In certain areas dredging will be doubt by the production by the hon. member carried out, and investigations must be under­ for Barcoo of the brochures he brought back taken in that field. The only survey from his overseas tour. Incidentally, such of the Great Barrier Reef was made, I think, tours seem to be of great benefit to both in the 1920's. The fact that no further Government and A.L.P. members. Possibly surveys have been made has been detrimental there are not enough of them available. to the State, and I blame both former Labour We do not have as many as other States have, Governments and Country-Liberal Govern­ and I hope the Government will consider ments for not implementing studies and enlightening many more members of the investigations of the Great Barrier Reef, the Queensland Parliament in this way. shoreline, and the littoral zone. As I have said before, we cannot continue to live in the Mr. Sullivan: You would be well down the past. list. [Sitting suspended from 1 to 2.15 p.m.] Mr. F. P. MOORE: Admittedly I am one of the junior members on this side, but I will Mr. F. P. MOORE: Prior to the luncheon put my name down whenever I see fit to do recess I was talking about the establishment so. of national parks along Queensland's coast­ line. I mentioned the pollution of the I mentioned briefly the farming of the sea­ ecological environment that will be involved. bed. I cannot forecast what might be dis­ People throughout Queensland, indeed all covered, but we have biologists, geologists over the world, are complaining about pol­ and others concerned with such an activity lution but, in a sense, we have to be pre­ and our universities should be promoting pared to Jive with it. We have to study courses in this field. Somebody mentioned the ecological problems involved in the pol­ today the wastage of university graduates, and lution of our rivers and streams. I have I think it is considered by some people that previously referred in this Chamber to the the courses in various university faculties inner reefs in the Innisfaii-Tully area that contain too much padding. Anyway, the have died, and not only because of the farming of the sea-bed should be undertaken. infestation of the Crown of Thorns starfish. lt has often been said that man is the According to the report of the committee worst despoiler of the universe. Fortunately, that studied this problem, the Crown of in Australia, which is the best country in the Thorns starfish has not reached plague pro­ world, and particularly in Queensland, which portions. On a fine day, from a plane it is the best State in Australia, this problem is possible to see the effluent from dredging is not particularly acute. The Minister said and it makes one realise the problems that that these national parks will be a haven could be caused by the wholesale dumping in which people can enjoy an unpolluted of ,this effluent. environment. This is an excellent idea. But The Minister has said that scientific studies the Minister also said that skin-divers will will be undertaken in marine parks. It is not be allowed into these areas. Throughout very necessary that such studies should be history, admittedly man has been a predator, carried out. The rangers who are appointed but lt 1\ ould be impossible to study the 3440 Forestry Act [1 APRIL} Amendment Bill

environment if man were not permitted to up by the hon. member for Mourilyan. In enter it. Man is supposed to be the most adverting to the definition given by the hon. intelligent being on Earth, but apparently member for Barcoo--"out of this world"-! skin-divers are not regarded as being in this remind hon. members that the Great Barrier category; they appear to be severely vic­ Reef is certainly out of this world. Perhaps timised, not by this Bill but by other fishing it could be described as a "celestial" nation<~! laws. park. The underwater world is a wonderful and intriguing one. Mr. Sullivan: Are you confu>ing skin­ divers and spear-fishermen? It is time .that we, as legislators, rocognised .that Queensland has a marine frontier. The Mr. F. P. MOORE: I have been closely Government will certainly have a job in associated with spear-fishermen in my elec­ front of it in trying to protect marine national torate, which, as the Minister knows, is parks from all forms of human interference. adjacent to the Great Barrier Reef. The Minister referred to the extension of Admittedly, spear-fishermen can cause pro­ marine national parks and reserves to the blems in coastal streams. However, they 10-fathom mark, or the territorial limit. create none in the ocean itself, yet they are First, he will have to define the boundaries, barred by regulation from fishing in certain but we have already run aground on ter­ open areas. ritorial limits as Queensland seems .to be I submitted earlier that well-paid scientist­ restricted to the three-mile limit. Marine rangers should be employed in this field. The parks are in their infancy anywhere in the study of fish is so fascinating that many people world, and I believe that we will be beset would be encouraged to engage in this work. by quite a few problems in establishing and In the past I have referred to various species policing them. of fish, particularly the barramundi. Many Mr. Thackeray: It is a step in .the right people do not believe that it is a saltwater direction. fish. I point out that at certain times of the year barramundi adapt themselves to a salt­ Mr. R. JONES: I agree. water environment. We have disregarded protective measures Mr. Sullivan: Are there not both fresh­ for the sea, which should be utilised by water and saltwater barramundi? the people for recreation and enjoyment. The provisions outlined by the Minister Mr. F. P. MOORE: Barramundi swim appear to permit of this in certain ways. up the streams to spawn. They can adapt Before marine national parks can be estab­ themselves to both saltwater and freshwater lished, they must be endorsed by the four environments. Government departments likely to be immedi­ The Minister has said that the use of small ately affe·cted. The Minister referred to nets will be permitted. I point out that they, section 29 of the Forestry Act, which too, are a danger because the use of them contains authority for setting apart national can kill young fish. I have referred in this parks and is now being amended. The Chamber to the serious damage caused to Governor in Council may determine the the fishing industry by prawn trawlers that areas to be set apart or to be assigned operate very close to the coast. Although I and declared as marine national parks, and commend the Minister for his comments on I understand that the first marine park spear-fishing, because it could constitute a to be established wilJ be .called the "Sullivan threat to the underwater environment, I Marine Park". believe that spear-fishermen are victimised by I am rather worried as it seems that a li unjust fishing Jaws. Perhaps spear-fishing fishing-commercial and recreational-will could be permitted in certain seasons, so I have certain restrictions placed on it. I will suggest that a greater number of fisheries comment on that point later in my speech. inspectors be appointed to police the fishing I agree with the hon. member for Mourilyan regulations. As rangers are employed in that the barramundi is an unuqml fish in national parks, so, too, should scientist­ that it can adapt itself to fresh, brackish rangers be appointed to carry out work in or salt water. marine national parks. Mr. Murray: It is like most politicians. I ask the Minister to consider my sub­ mission. Perhaps it is not of great import­ Mr. R. JONES: It is like some politicians. ance whether scientist-rangers are appointed It is pertinent to say that public opinion by the Federal Government or the State has had a lot to do with the introduction Government, but it would be preferable to of this measure, particularly opm10ns have them trained by a State Government expressed during the last election campaign. department. (Time expired.) Honourable Members interjected. The CHAIRMAN: Order! Hon. member~ Mr. R. JONES (Cairns) (2.29 p.m.): The know the rule about cross-firing in the Minister said that in purpose and function, Chamber. marine parks do not differ from ther terres­ trial counterparts. Our shadow Minister Mr. R JONES: The Queensland Littoral referred to the derivation of the wonl Society's "Save the Barrier Reef" campaign .. ,~r~e:,t>i~tl", and this point was al~·o taken was excellent in that it imbued in hon. Forestry Act [1 APRIL} Amendment Bill 3441 members, and the people of Queensland to overstep the mark and be too zealous in generally, a consciousness of the wonders the exercise of our powers. It is possible to of the Great Barrier Reef. During its go to the extreme in these matters. We must ·campaign it attracted public attention to the be temperate in our approach. We must con­ need for further conservation and protection tinually devote our attention to retaining, for ·of the reef. generations yet unborn, some parts of this I admit that I had not heard of the term valuable natural area as an unspoilt expanse "marine national park" until the hon. mem­ of reef waters. ber for Salisbury used it in a committee­ Some areas should certainly be left in room meeting of Parliamentary Labour perpetuity in their natural state as places ol Par.ty members during a discussion of the beauty and of relaxation. However, I think provisions of the ·Petroleum (Submerged all conservationists would agree that a little Lands) Bill approximately four years ago. common sense has to be used in implement­ Students and interested parties are corn­ ing a policy of preservation. It should nor mended to study "Hansard", Volume 246, be a matter of merely drawing a line from. of 18 October, 1967, when that measure say, Tully to Cooktown and preventing was debated, with particular reference to various activities within the entire area so the remarks of the hon. member for Salis­ prescribed. People in provincial and countn bury, at page 953. On that occasion the areas will want to continue to fish, and they hon. member referred to "underwater" will not want to use only two hooks on a national parks. line. They will want to catch enough fish My con~ribution is at page 957, and I to enable them to enjoy their sport, and I commend It to hon. members also. In my think that fish are sufficiently plentiful to concluding remarks on that occasion, I allow of this. reiterated the remarks of the Minister for Mines in a different context, that is, when he Although I realise that there is a need for was introducing his Bill. I suggested that preservation of the environment, it must be "discretion be exercised". I repeat those remembered that people have a right to enjoy words today in relation to marine national the environment. The environment is meant parks. to be lived in, and care should be taken to see that there is no creation of a set of taboos I ask that the Government, in a respons­ that deprive people of things they would ible manner, place emphasis on the beauties, otherwise enjoy. wonders, glory and grandeur of the Great Barrier Reef. This natural phenomenon is I should like to quote part of a letter peculiar to Queensland. It is unique. It has written by Mr. Owen Kelly, secretary of the been called a "wonder of the world". Queensland Littoral Society. In a letter dated 30 September, 1969, he said- Mr. Wallis-Smith: And we want to keep it "While we favour the setting aside of natural. parts of the Reef for scientific study where Mr. R. JONES: We want to keep it as no fishing or other exploitative activity natural as possible for the recreation and would be permitted, we see no reason why enjoyment of our people. We must protect fishing (including spear-fishing) should not the reef for posterity. It must be retained for be encouraged on other parts of the Reef the gaze of future generations because of its provided these activities are supervised and fascination and sheer magnificence. Anybody managed. As yet, we have made no sug­ who has been under water on the reef knows gestions for the locations of 'scientific the truth of what I am saying. We have areas' as they could only be established merely scratched the surface. The first under­ after a very thorough survey of the entire water observatory was established at Green Reef has been made. Island. "We are extremely sceptical of the claim The hon. member for Mourilyan referred that spear-fishing is unduly depleting fish to the underwater swimmer or diver. Statu­ stocks and we doubt very much whether tory provisions may not be sufficient, and the Government has a~y biological evid­ drawing imaginary lines will not fully guaran­ ence to support it. We feel therefore that tee the protection of our marine parks and a ban on spear-fishing while retaining line save the reef from vandalism by irresponsible fishing would be illogical and discrimina­ individuals or the large-scale pollution that tory. We feel that depletion of fish stocks is part and parcel of civilisation today. from line fishing, spear-fishing, damage to Pollution can be caused by oil in the ocean the Reef from shell co!lecti 'g, clam col­ it can be garbage thrown overboard fro~ lecting, etc., are problems of management ships, it can come from the shores or it can which can only be resolved when a lot come trom coastal streams in the form of more biological information is availahle." insecticides. In the main, whatever form it Those thoughts formed an integral part of takes, it is the result of greed and lust, and my question, answered by the Premier on not as a result of various forms of enjoyment 17 March of this year, in which I sought the and recreation. intentions of the Government in the declara­ The reef and its environs are our heritage. tion of marine national parks. The main It is our bounden duty to protect it. It is point of my question remained unanswered. our legislative responsibility to be vigilant in as the Premier's reply merely intimated the this regard. However, we must be careful not Government's intention to legislate for the 3442 Forestry Act (1 APRIL] Amendment Bill

establishment of marine national parks. The Innisfail to Cooktown, members of those Minister has clarified the position a little clubs will have to go to Cooktown or today. Townsville to enjoy their sport. I was also prompted to make my inquiry Mr. Sullivan: You must agree that there by a statement of the Premier that appeared are spear-fishermen who do not belong to in "The Cairns Post" of 22 August, 1969, in any club. an article headed, "Marine National Park for N.Q. Plan". The article began- Mr. R. JONES: I should say that those "A vast marine national park may be who do not belong to a club should not declared in North Queensland waters. It be allowed to engage in spear-fishing. could stretch from the coastline near Members of spear-fishing clubs are prepared lnnisfail north to the coastline near Cook­ to limit fishing. I do not see why it is town and encompass a wide sea area to necessary to have a marine park extending include this whole section of the Barrier from Cooktown to Innisfail. There is Reef." nothing to prevent scientists studying the The Premier said in that article that a reef between Cooktown and Cape York, special committee has been set up to advise and I believe that people in big towns should on possible marine national parks, and its be permitted to enjoy spear-fishing and all secretary had been sent overseas to study other forms of recreational fishing in areas marine conservation. He also said it was adjacent to those towns. Government policy to make a thorough study Is it intended to limit the big-game fisher­ of Queensland's coastal waters, and that if man? Big-game fishing is now a renowned the State Government favoured a marine international tourist sport, and will bring national park in the Innisfail-Cooktown area in its train international hotels. Will the of the Coral Sea, further consultations would proVISIOns of the Bill prevent big-game be held with the Commonwealth Govern­ fisherman from going into marine national ment. parks? The Premier also said that a national park declaration meant that the area involved was Mr. Sullivan: The Bill does not define completely protected. He said it was hard to any boundaries at this stage. envisage a ban on normal fishing bM under­ Mr. R. JONES: I have not seen the Bill. water spear-fishing might be prohibited. It has not yet been printed. I heard what In his introductory remarks, the Minister the Minister said relative to boundaries, but mentioned spear-fishing. If I recall correctly, they have yet to be defined. he said that recreational fishing would be All I am doing now is making a plea limited to hand line only and that no permit on behalf of the spear-fishermen in my would be required, and also that commercial electorate because the Minister has singled fishing would be under permit and the usual them out and said-I do not remember licence. his exact words-that they are to be banned, Mr. O'Donnell: He mentioned the use of or prohibited completely. In my opinion, two hooks. that is not fair. It is discrimination, and I ask the Minister to have another look at Mr. R. JONES: That is so. I do not the provision in the light of what I have agree with the Minister's statement that said. underwater fishing is a selective method of fishing. It is in one respect, but it can I shall produce figures at a more opportune be a very dangerous type of fishing under time-probably during the second-reading certain circumstances. However, if under­ debate, when I will have more time-to water clubs are licensed and a darg is show that members of the spear-fishing clubs imposed on them-that is a Welsh expression in my area are responsible members of the that I use because of the mining background community, and I do not think it should of my grandfather; it means a limit-if be necessary for them to have a licence there is a darg on the number of fish to go into a particular area. Spear-fishermen that can be taken, I do not think much with breathing apparatus and scuba gear harm will be done. As far as commercial can take a lot of fish in a short time, and fishing is concerned, under the New South I certainly do not support fishing of that Wales legislation no fish with a spear mark type. However, I believe that underwater on it is accepted on the commercial market.' fishing is a very healthy and vigorous sport Fish are sometimes caught with hooker equip­ and should be encouraged. ment, which should be banned not only Mr. McKECHNIE (Carnarvon) (2.49 in national parks but elsewhere. p.m.): I am confident that the people of Mr. Sullivan: What you are saying is Queensland will appreciate the Minister's that we should put the responsibility on introduction of this legislation to establish spear-fishing clubs to control their members? marine national parks. It is a subject in which people throughout the State are Mr. R. JONES: Yes, if they are given interested-they certainly are interested in a licence. There are about three spear­ the wondrous Great Barrier Reef-and I fishing clubs in the area that I represent. am sure that the Bill will receive their If a marine national park is established from support. Forestry Act [1 APRIL] Amendment Bill 3443

In his introductory remarks the Minister have sea rangers to supervise and patrol the quoted Byron. As I listended to hon. mem­ marine national parks to ensure that they are bers trying to describe the beauties of the not violated. Great Barrier Reef, I thought of Tennyson's lines. I have heard people say that they are The hon. member for Cairns is concerned incapable of expressing their wonderment at about the spear-fisherman's position relative the Great Barrier Reef. I thought of to these parks. I can understand that Tennyson's poem composed after he had people in his area would like to continue lost one of his closest friends. He was spear-fishing in the area affected by this sitting by the sea at the time he wrote it. Bill, but the Minister has made quite clear I can remember only the first few lines- the reason for banning them. Spear-fisher­ "Break, break, break, men would naturally take the fish that are On thy cold gray stones, 0 Seal most desirable from their point of view and, while not taking a great number of fish, And I would that my tongue could utter they could denude the marine national park The thoughts .that arise in me." of particular species. I am sure that many people throughout the Mr. Bromley: No more than sharks do. State would appreciate being able to enthusiastically express their feelings about Mr. McKECHNIE: Admittedly the sea the wonders of the Great Barrier Reef. contains many predators. As the hon. member for Norman says, sharks are The main argument that seemed to be discriminatory, but they would not continually raised against the Bill was the use of the select the one type of fish whereas I would word "terrestrial". Here the Opposition are expect a spear-fisherman to concentrate on divided. The hon. members for Barcoo and the type of fish that he preferred for table Cairns disagree with the use of the word, purposes. whereas the hon. member for Mourilyan sup­ ports the Minister's use of it. In my electorate the fish caught are all fresh water fish. A spear-fisherman would Mr. F. P. MOORE: I rise to a point of natumlly go for Murray Cod and Yellow­ order. I should like to explain what I said. belly and leave the Jew fish and black bream. I said that the connotation of the word was Consequently, there would be a denuding of the problem. Both sides are correct and as the most desirable species of fish. While far as I am concerned there is no problem I can appreciate the hon. member's concern, I think it is desirable to keep spear-fishermen whatsoever. out of these areas. Mr. McKECHNIE: I am quite in agreement The Minister also made it very clear that with the Minister and the hon. member for fish would become afraid of man as the Mourilyan. I am actually on the hon. mem­ result of spear-fishing among them, and it ber's side. The word "terra", according to the is desirable that underwater swimmers Latin translation, means "the Earth" or "the should be able to closely approach and land". That is confirmed by its use in Tierra observe fish in their natural habitat. This del Fuego. Our own nation was shown on would not be possible if fish were continually the early maps as "Terra Australis"-the being attacked by spear-fishermen. "Land of Australia" or, literally, the "South Land". I quite agree with the hon. member Mr. Tucker: They are continually being for Mourilyan and the Minister. attacked by sharks. However, there is one aspect of the legis­ Mr. McKECHNIE: We do not expect lation that will be difficult to administer, and them to be friendly with sharks. I have spoken to the Minister about it. It Mr. R. Jones: Are you talking of spear­ will be difficult to clearly define what we fishermen with scuba equipment or just with might call the lateral boundaries of the snorkels? marine national parks. I cannot see that there will be any great difficulty about the Mr. McKECHNIE: I mean the men with high-water mark, or up to the 10 fathoms, the oxygen tanks on their backs, who go and so forth, but when it is an imaginary down for considerable periods of time. line, such as a line of latitude defining the Mr. R. Jones: Yet the restriction is being northern or southern boundary of the park, placed on all fishermen, even though men it will be very difficult for fishermen to know using snorkels can operate for only a limited exactly whether they are inside or outside time. the area. I am not a nautical man, but I should imagine that the only clear way to Mr. McKECHNIE: I said I appreciated define the boundaries would be by marker the hon. member's problem, but, looking at buoys. Of course, that system would be it from the other angle, I can see the expensive and very difficult to maintain in Minister's point of view. He wishes the the cyclone season in North Queensland. fish to become tame and accustomed to man Buoys would be ripped from their moorings. so that the environment in the park will I do feel some concern for the fishermen who be natural, and man can more or less mix might stray inadvertently into those areas. with the fish and see how they behave in Consequently there will be a great need to their natural habitat. 3444 Forestry Act [1 APRIL] Amendment Bill

Another matter about which the hon. bodies have spent many hours and a large member for Cairns expressed concern was sum of money delving into the underwater the netting of bait. world. Mr. R. Jones: I did not mention it. Whilst I welcome the Government's recog­ nition of the need to preserve the underwater :\fr. McKECHNIE: It must have been environment, at the same time I express one of the other speakers. possibly the hon. concern at the fact that the measure falls far member for Mourilyan, but it was raised. short of affording complete protection to the It was thought that the catching of bait Great Barrier Reef. At a recent Labour-in­ by nets could disturb the natural habitat. Politics Convention the Labour Party adopted the principle that the Great Barrier Reef was Mr. Aikens: You could have a marine of such great importance as to be placed national park on the Macintyre. under the control of an authority appointed to conduct research and investigations into Mr. McKECHNIE: Actually. I look the best ways and means of using .the forward to having a national park on Pike resources of the reef by fishing the promo­ Creek Dam. It would be a very interesting tion of tourism. or by any othe; means. An place for a marine national park and for authority should be appointed to plan the underwater swimmers, if we can call a fresh­ reef's ultimate destiny. water dam a marine national park. Mr. Aikens: Would you give that authority Mr. Sherrington: It would afford a the right to drill for oil on the Reef if it wonderful opportunity to explore the Texas wanted to? caves. Mr. SHERRINGTON: Usually I dismiss Mr. McKECHNIE: I agree with the hon. interjections by the hon. member for Towns­ member for Salisbury; it would be a ville South as being unworthy of comment; wonderful opportunity for underwater however, on this occasion, I point out to him exploration of those caves. I consider that that the attitude of the Labour Party, and the netting of bait is also undesirable, but Labour movement as a whole, is that drilling I should not imagine that the use of a should not be permitted on the reef until small hand-net to catch bait would create more is known about it than at present. If a great disturbance. I am somewhat con­ as a result of scientific research, which is the cerned about the possibility that many fisher­ only way of establishing whether or not men could inadvertently stray over the ?il-drilling should .be permitted on the reef, imaginary lines and therefore be liable to It appears to be foolhardy to drill on it, the a penalty. whole Labour movement will oppose such drilling. Our problems with the Great Barrier Finally, I am confident that the public Reef stem from our lack of knowledge of its will greatly appreciate the Minister's many wonders. I have always believed in endeavour to preserve our marine wonder- the principle that we should do nothing that land. endangers the survival of the reef until Mr. SHERRINGTON (Salisbury) (3 p.m.): scientists can tell us what we should do with At the outset, I express my appreciation of its resources. the Government's recognition of the valuable I feel that, in some measure, the Bill is and wonderful part that marine national a document of appeasement. There has parks can play in our environment-belated been a clamour for underwater national parks as that recognition might be. on the reef, and, while I welcome the inser­ tion of the provision relative to their forma­ Mr. SuJlivan: You were going all right up tic~ in the section of the Act dealing with till then. Now you have spoilt it. natiOnal parks, I believe it is not enough Mr. SHERRINGTON: In reply to the to merely say that we will make a marine Minister, I remind him that the hon. member park of Swai~ Reef, Michaelmas Cay, -or for Cairns was kind enough to refer to com­ any other sectiOn of the reef. It is useless ments I made four years ago during the to merely delineate areas of reef on a map debate on the Petroleum (Submerged Lands) as marine parks. If we are to declare these Bill. To my knowledge, on no occasion prior areas in perpetuity, we must do so on the to that was the matter of marine national basis that they have scientific and recrea­ parks raised in this Chamber. The point I tional value and that they contain great and am making is that it has taken the Govern­ wondrous features, including species of ment four years to recognise the need to mollusc or fish, whose survival we should create marine national parks. The hon. mem­ ensure. ber for Barcoo, too, is to be complimented Decisions about what areas should con­ on stressing the desirability of creating them. stitute marine national parks must always as with land national parks, be based o~ I think I should place in "Hansard" my the ecology of the area. For instance, the appreciation of the tremendous amount of concept of Cooloola was based on the work that has been done by both the Queens­ ecology of the region, as was the concept land Littoral Society and .the Great Barrier of brigalow national parks. So it is with Reef Committee in informing the public our rain forests, and savanna, monsoon and about our underwater environment and alert­ scrub areas. It is not good enoucrh to take ing them to the need to protect it. Those two a map of the Barrier Reef and ~ay, "This Forestry Act (l APRIL] Amendment Bill 3445

looks a likely area; we will make it a I am saying is backhanded at all, it is a national park". The areas must be pre­ backhanded swipe at the Government's served on the basis of their whole ecology. attitude. I hope that there will be a full and com­ Mr. SuUivan: Oh no, you wouldn't do that! petent study of the areas before they are designated. I emphasise .that because I am Mr. SHERRINGTON: This is the big very disturbed about Fraser Island, where difference. I have never known the Govern­ there is a confrontation between the sand­ ment to send a team of scientists to the mining companies and the conservationists. Barrier Reef or to Cooloola to conduct an I recently asked the ·Premier if a committee investigation. This is what worries me. Who was in fact investigating the resources of was on the committee that looked at Fraser Island to determine what should be Cooloola? Four or five Cabinet Ministers! forestry areas, what should be tourist areas And, if I remember correctly, the Minister in and national parks, and what area, if any, charge of this Bill handed out a bull-skin rug could be mined safely. That must be our or something like it to the chairman of one approach in future to the use of our of the shire councils. resources. I am concerned because, in reply, the Premier said .that a committee The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. was carrying out investigations. He named Houghton): Order! the committee members as Mr. Barton, the Mr. SHERRINGTON: I am being very Co-ordinator-General of Works, Mr. Haley, careful in what I say. If I am giving anybody the Conservator of Forests, Mr. McDowell a backhanded swipe, I am giving the Govern­ from the Land Administration Commission. ment one for its lousy, miserable, uninformed and Mr. Healy, the Under Secretary of approach to determining future land usage Mines. according to resources. It is because of this Mr. R. E. Moore: I thought this was sup­ that I am very concerned that we will not posed to be a speech on marine national simply take areas of the Great Barrier Reef parks. and declare them national parks. Before declaring any area a national park, we must look at its part in the complete ecology of. the Mr. SHERRINGTON: The hon. member area. We must also look at the surrounding does not understand. areas and the surrounding ecology. I do not Mr. R. E. Moore: You don't know the think tha.t the Minister will disagree with me difference between soil and water. when I say that very few rivers on the eastern seaboard are not polluted, and that this Mr. SHERRINGTON: I know the differ­ pollution has some effect on the reef. We ence between gabbling and considered must make ourselves aware of the connection speeches. between the land mass and the Great Barrier Reef. Therefore, we cannot simply pick out I cast no reflection on any of those gentle­ an area of reef and declare it a national park. men because I hold them all in high esteem. Before doing so, we must discove-r what part My point of criticism is that I fail to see it plays in the ecology of the surrounding how these men who occupy very high area. positions in the State can, as a committee, Dr. Webb, of the. C.S.I.R.O., highlighted carry out research needed to determine these this fact in a special issue of "Australian matters. I cannot accept that, in addition Fisheries". He said- to their normal duties, they could carry out "Although the boundaries between this investigation adequately. I should hope tropical corals in the sea and tropical that they would delegate to various ecologists, forests on land seem obvious enough, not biologists, geologists, botanists and so on-- all the boundaries are the same. They are Mr. Sullivao: This is normal. considered by modern ecology as belts of tension 'where two organisations meet and Mr. SHERRINGTON: I hope it is. exchange their respective components', and Mr. SuUivan: They avail themselves of all the most important boundaries are those possible assir.tance. separating systems of different maturity. For example, exchange of energy, food Mr. SHERRINGTON: I am not reflecting materials, minerals and detritus occurs at all on these gentlemen; I hold them in the between organisms living along shore-lines highest regard, but, from what the Minister between forest and swamp, between man­ said, one could gain the impression that it grove and marsh and the sea. will merely be a matter of their going into "Rain-water which leaches from undis­ a huddle and working something out on the turbed tropical rain forest on land and information available in their departments. which passes through the soil and into streams, is practically distilled water. 1t Mr. Su.llivan: You say you hold them in contains only traces of minerals because high regard, so isn't that a sort of backhanded of the efficiency of the nutrient cycle in the compliment? intact rain forest, where leaf-litter is immediately mineralised and transformed Mr. SHERRINGTON: No. I am trying into food for the surface roots. Once this very carefully not to be backhanded. I have cycle is disrupted by clearing and burning. never denigrated any public servant. If what minerals are lost by leaching and erosion 3446 Forestry Act [l APRIL] Amendment Bill

into the streams, and thence into the adja­ Minister for Mines and Main Roads, he may cent seas. The alluvial fans at the mouth veto any proposal if he believes that there is of many of the rivers along the coast of oil beneath the coral of the reef. north-eastern Australia amply testify to the (Time expired.) sediment loads from deforested catchment areas. Less obvious, and probably of more Mr. CASEY (Mackay) (3.21 p.m.): Much importance biologically, are the invisible has been said during the debate about the chemicals rinsed out of agricultural soils­ natural beauty of the Great Barrier Reef. whether they be fertilisers, soil sterilants, Therefore, one would expect that any Bill or pesticides." introduced in Queensland relative to marine In other words, in determining marine national parks would make the Great Barrier national parks and assessing their chances of Reef and its associated islands one of the survival, consideration has to be given to the most important considerations of any com­ ecology of the entire area, and areas adjacent mittee or group of person determining to it. where marine national parks should be Whilst I appreciate the recognition now established. being given to the need for marine national As I come from the Mackay district, I parks, I think that what is to be provided is know full well the beauties and "wonders of a far cry from what is really needed. It is the Great Barrier Reef and its islands. The essential, in my view, to place the future of hon. members for Mourilyan and Cairns, the Barrier Reef in the hands of an authority who have already spoken in the debate, are capable of carrying out research and develop­ also well aware of these beauties and wonders, ing this natural resource for the benefit of but I am not sure what the hon. member for generations to come. Carnarvon, who knows quite a lot about There is one other point that I must make the Macintyre River, would know of them. with all the sincerity that I can command. Between the coastline of Queensland and Unfortunately I was not in the Chamber this the reef itself are many islands, most of morning when the Minister delivered his which a:re already declared national parks. introductory speech. However, I listened to From what the Minister said in his intro­ it over the P.A. system in my office, and I ductory remarks, I gathered that, under the did not hear in it any reference to deleting provisions of the Bill, off-shore areas of from the Forestry Act what I consider to be existing national parks could automatically one of its most iniquitous provisions, which become marine national parks. In the off­ inhibits a sensible approach to conservation. shore area 100 miles north and 100 miles I refer to section 24 (3) which reads- south of Mackay are more islands than would "No recommendation for the setting be found off the coastline in any other part apart of any such lands situated on a gold of Australia-in fact, possibly in any other field or mineral field shall be made without part of the world. It includes all the islands the approval of the Minister for Mines or in the Whitsunday group. other Minister of the Crown for the time being charged with the administration of The Minister said that no statutory dis­ the Mining Acts." tances had been laid down, or that he had not decided how far the marine national In other words, where an area is in dispute, parks should extend. I believe that a the power to veto a national park proposal statutory distance is already in existence­ rests entirely with one man. The Minister that is, the 3-mile limit to which State stated this morning that among the depart­ jurisdiction applies. ments to be represented at discussions to determine future national parks would be the Mr. Kaus: What about round Heron Mines Department. I am not quibbling at Island? such representation, as mining is part of land usage, but I do feel that placing the power Mr. CASEY: I am subject to correction of veto in the hands of one person is very on this point, but I think that the Common­ dangerous. I shall not deal with the philoso­ wealth has control of the waters from the phy of the present Minister for Mines. How­ 3-mile limit to the 12-mile limit. I did not ever, when the power of veto is placed in the hear the Minister say when introducing the hands of one person, conservation and land Bill-I think this is something to which he usage generally are placed in a very parlous should give careful consideration-whether position. there is to be complementary Commonwealth What section 24 (3) of the Forestry Act legislation covering these waters from the means is that in land usage the greatest 3-mile Queensland limit to the 12-mile Com­ emphasis is placed on mining. I do not think monwealth limit. that mining, or any other form of land use, I can understand why provisions covering should be classified in this manner. A sensible commercial fishing and fishing as a sport have assessment has to be made of the best use of been included in the proposed Bill. Many all resources. Placing in one man's hands the off-shore areas in Queensland rely wholly power to determine that mining is to have and solely on the tourist industry, and one first priority inhibits enlightened conservation of the things that attract tourists to the and resource-usage programmes. I relate tha.t Barrier Reef is the ready availability of fish to the Great Barrier Reef by saying that if and the wondrous varieties and species that the power of veto is in the hands of the may be caught. Forestry Act [1 APRIL] Amendment Bill 3447

I strongly support the suggestions of the concern to ensure that those persons who. hon. members for Cairns and Mouri!yan that as members of an industry, are engaged in the proposed Bill discriminates against the taking ,coral can continue their activities spear-fishermen of Queensland and Australia. under licence or permit. In my own area, It was my privilege in Mackay last year and in the area of the hon. member for to officially open the Australian champion­ Cairns farther north, there are excellent. ships of the Underwater Spear Fishermen's reliable people engaged in taking coral, and Association of Australia. I say unhesitat­ making it into souvenirs and selling it to ingly that I have never met a more dedicated tourists, both on the islands and on the group of conservationists than those people. mainland. Men and women from all States of Aus­ These things act like a magnet or draw­ tralia were interested in engaging in their card for the Barrier Reef. I have seen activities as a sport on a competitive basis coral samples, properly coloured and within the rules of their clubs and associa­ mounted, being despatched to all parts of tion. As the hon. member for Cairns the world, and I know that many people pointed out, they have very stringent rules visit the area simply because they have been covering both the size and the number of struck by the beauty of coral samples that fish that can be taken. The enthusiasts other people have brought back from the in that sport probably have a far better reef. I should hate to think that anything understanding than most others of marine in this legislation would prevent the con­ ecology and an appreciation for underwater tinuance of this industry. As I mentioned, beauty. I am sure they appreciate what those now engaged in it are responsible they see more than most people, and that people. They are limited in the amount they are far greater authorities on marine they can take, and they are doing a very life than the hon. member for Windsor, fine job. who wants to interject against them. A further query that I wish to raise at Mr. R. Jones: He wouldn't know. this stage relates to national parks on the foreshores. As the Minister is aware, in my Mr. CASEY: That is true. district at the present time-and perhaps in These people should be given the oppor­ other areas as well-a problem has arisen tunity to continue to enjoy their sport in as the result of a dispute, mainly between those areas if other sportsmen are. An rock clubs, over the taking of rocks from existing regulation prohibits spear-fishermen foreshores. No-one is permitted to take from operating in and around certain islands rocks out of a national park. Lapidary that are used for tourist purposes. I go clubs are very prevalent at the present along with that, as I think most hon. members time, and, as the taking of rocks from would. So do the spear-fishermen them­ national parks is prohibited, I ask the selves. I have had corespondence from spear­ Minister whether this legislation will clear ~shermen. who, as a group or as an organisa­ up the position relative to the taking of tiOn, believe that manne national parks stones from between low and high-water should be set up in selected areas, selected marks on foreshores in these national park islands or selected river estuaries where fish areas. At the present time, this is not are known to breed. It would be very clear. wise to set them up in such places. WLthin Mr. Sullivan: I am sorry; I did not hear those breeding areas the fish could be com­ the hon. member's question. pletely protected from both spear-fishermen and line-fishermen. In other parts of the Mr. CASEY: Will this legislation clear up marine parks, fishing could be permitted on the position relative to the taking of rocks the present basis. from between low and high-water marks Under existing regulations the line-fisher­ on foreshores? At the present time, the man is restricted to the use of not more taking of rocks from these foreshores is than two hooks. Surely, in consultation controlled by the Department of Harbours with the spear-fishing clubs of Australia or and Marine and not by the Forestry Depart­ even . w~th the Underwater Spear Fishing ment. The taking of sand and/or shells Assocrat10n of Queensland-a recognised will also be involved, and I will deal with body in this State-the Minister or his that point later on. Will this Bill preclude officers could come to some agreement as the taking of these things from foreshore to the type and method of fishing that areas in a national park between low-water could be undertaken by this group of sport­ mark and high-water mark? ing enthusiasts. Mr. Sullivan: I will answer the question We heard in the Minister's introduction when I reply. that spear-fishermen are to be prevented from enjoying their sport in these waters, Mr. CASEY: It is a matter that I should but by the sound of things the oil drillers like the Minister to consider. As he will are not to be stopped, as the Commonwealth appreciate from correspondence I have had oil-drilling legislation will override this with him, this position needs to be cleared legislation. up and clearly defined. The Minister did not specify what areas Another point I raise relates to the collect­ of the Great Barrier Reef, in particular, are ing of shells on off-shore islands in national to become marine national parks. I express parks. This is another important industry 3448 Forestry Act [1 APRIL] Amendment Bill on Barrier Reef islands. It employs quite have said, experimental far~ could be­ a number of people and, in exactly the same established either within manne national way as the taking of coral does, it attracts parks or adjacent to them, and I urge the quite a number of people to Queensland. Minister to closely examine that suggestion. It attracts not only those who are interested in shells but also people who are attracted Mr. BROMLEY (Norman) (3.38 p.m.): The by natural beauty. The taking of these Bill is a very important one, and the people shells is normally done at low water from who are responsible for its introduction are the pools, lagoons and reefs surrounding to be commended. Over the past few years the islands, on the beaches of the islands, great changes have occurred in the conserva­ and perhaps on the reef itself. At the tion movement in all spheres. Both the present time it is controlled, but it can only Government, acting under the weight of be controlled by the people who conduct public opinion, and the public are to be the tourist resorts. commended on recognising the need to control pollution. It is pleasing to see that Mr. R. Jones: Even the outside hobbyist at last the Government is awake to the need has to be licensed. to introduce legislation such as this. The Mr. CASE~: lhat 1s true. At present, old catchcry that conservation is necessary those who conduct the tourist resorts exer­ for the survival of the human race as well cise very strict control over the taking of as all forms of life, whether in the water these shells. Does this Bill preclude the or on the land, now has a disturbing ring taking of shells, or will the people in the of truth about it. This is evident from the areas that are to be declared marine national great number of articles in the Press and parks be allowed to continue their present other publications that have referred to it, activities? I am working on the presumption, as well as from television programmes that from the Minister's introduction, that the have stressed the need for conservation. areas surrounding the Whitsunday group of I express the opinion that boating islands and other off-shore islands between enthusiasts, whether they sail in our sheltered the coast and the reef which are now nntional waters or out at sea, cause a major problem parks will be automatically included. by polluting our off-shore waters. They Another matter I wish to mention is certainly offend by throwing rubbish over­ pollution. The Minister mentioned this sub­ board. Either they do not care, or they ject initially, and other hon. members have are uneducated. They could be described as also spoken of it. I point out that one thoughtless and filthy, and should receive cyclone can cause more pollution within the on-the-spot fines for littering our waterways reef areas than can any activity by man. and beaches. We must exercise great care in controlling The legislation should provide for the the pollutants that flow into our streams, and appointment of an ecological ombudsman to the cause of pollution must be clearly deter­ determine all matters relative to marine­ mined. Of course, we are aware that large parks, marine life of all kinds, pollution. quantities of insecticides run into our streams wild life, conservation in all spheres, pesticide from farmlands and pastures and then in control and environmental problems. I do not turn, flow into our coastal waters. Our' off­ know if the Bill provides for the appoint­ shore waters could best be described as a ment of such a person, but no doubt the huge lagoon, bounded on one side by the Minister will note my comments and consider coastline and on the other by the Great it. Barrier Reef, and the movement of water All Australian Governments and people· in that area is fairly restricted. Although should be asked if they care for Australia. there are many eddies and currents, there Australia-and Queensland in particular-is is no great movement of water through the a marvellous country. It is wonderful in openings in the reef into the South ,Pacific every way-for the tourist, for the resident, Ocean currents. As I have said, the source of pollutants must be clearly determined and for everything else we want to talk about. before legislation can be introduced to con­ Mr. Sullivan: There are many things you trol them. don't want to talk about, too. As well as conducting scientific research into the ecology of the reef, we should be Mr. BROMLEY: In the last few days looking at it with a view to putting it to its there has obviously been a lot of discussion best commercial use. The establishment of about things that the Govemment does not off-shore experimental farms, whether within want to talk about. I am referring, of course, marine national parks or close by them, is to redistribution, which, perhaps, we will be necessary. able to talk about later. Mr. O'Donnell: Aquaculture. I think Governments should be asked if they want our beaches and open spaces to Mr. CASEY: I refer to aquaculture, and I be covered with mbbish; our reefs mined: realise that the hon. member for Barcoo has our creeks choked by rubbish; our rivers already dealt with it. Queensland is endowed and beaches poisoned by detergents, insecti­ with certain natural features that are found cides and sewage; our fish and bird life: nowhere else in the world, and I believe that destroyed; and our oysters made unfit to there is a great future for industries based eat. The north coast of Queensland is on the development of aquaculture. As I famous for its oysters, but the waterway~ Forestry Act [1 APRIL] Amendment Bill 3449 of New Zealand and Tasmania are becoming Mr. BROMLEY: Of course not. so polluted that oysters cannot survive. I should hate that to happen in Queensland. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. Houghton): Order! Our Governments should be asked if they want our bays and beaches to become unfit Mr. BROMLEY: Thank you, Mr. for. swimming. Not long ago the Duke of Houghton. I knew you would bring the Edmburgh remarked about the condition of Committee to order and control this rowdy some ocean beach in New South Wales. I element of the Liberal Party. think he said it was as bad as swimming in a I am not biased one way or the other, sewer. but it is my considered opinion, after Mr. O'Donnell: That was Prince Charles. studying the various reports, after looking at the area, and after speaking to people Mr. BROMLEY: I stand corrected. Prince who have lived there all their lives, who Charles would know, as, no doubt, would have swum regularly and fished regularly Prince Philip. in the North-as a matter of fact, they have The people in New South Wales did not almost lived on the reef-that Dr. Endean's like his comments and objected strongly. repor-t is more authentic than the committee's report. Mr. O'Donnell: That happened in Victoria. If one looks at the latest map showing the Mr. BROMLEY: Yes, it was in Victoria. areas allotted to oil-exploration companies under leases and authorities to prospect, one As our resources in Queensland are not cannot help worrying. The entire coastline UJ?limited, they must be conserved, and this of Queensland is covered. I might mention Bill s_hm;Id help in that regard. To my way in passing that a couple of permits have of t_hmkmg real progress in our country can been issued to Exoil and Transoil, in which be JUdged by the quality of our living and the Premier has shares. not by the number of our possessions. The hon. member for Hawthorne did not Unfortunately many people do not have what say whether he approved of drilling on the is necessary to live a proper life. We face Barrier Reef. It seems to me, however, dangers on every front-in the air, on the water and on the land. I mention land that the Government must approve of it, because, in my opinion, the Bill should because it has allowed all those permits to control the use of beach-buggies on our be granted. If any member wants to argue beach reserves. As far as I know, there is about when any of those permits ami authorities to prospect were issued, I have no ~:mtrc;I over the use of beach-buggies on the mtertidal_ wne of firm sand. The public here a list, released by the Minister, of off­ should receive more education in many shore permits covering the area north of spheres, particularly aquaculture and those Gladstone, showing the dates on which they covered by the Bill. Over the years there were issued. I do not think that there is have been various sanctuaries for turtles any point in arguing any of those matters, fish and crustaceans, which should be pro~ because I have the complete answer. The tected and allowed to survive in their natural list goes back to 1958, and it shows that habitat. all the permits were granted by this Govern­ ment. I wish now to refer to the "Report of the When one looks at this map and sees Committee on the Problem of the Crown­ the extent of the red shading along the of-thorns Starfish", which was commented entire coastline, one wonders where marine on recently by the Premier and circulated national parks will be situated. I noticed to members. I have read it twice. In that in the case of Exoil No Liability, its addition, I have read Dr. Endean's book on permit 76P expired on 31 October, 1970. Acanthaster planci three times and have However, if one looks at the Stock Exchange spoken to him and corresponded with him. share listings, one sees that its shares are l cannot go along completely with the com­ still on the market. That gives rise to mittee's report because to a certain extent it some thought, particularly when it is known is politically biased. ' ' that the ·Premier has an interest in that Mr. Hinze: You are not politically biased, company. are you? The main question that I want to ask i~ this: will the issuing of so many permits Mr. BR~MLEY: That would be the day! to oil-exploration companies affect the siting . have tned not to be politically biased of marine national parks? I do not know 10 my speech today. I have given due whether some permits will be withdrawn credit to the Minister and his officers on or whether they will not be renewed whe~ the introduction of this Bill. Incidentally, they expire. This matter is serious enough the hon. member for South Coast is inter­ to cause worry, and should be debated in jecting from other than his usual seat. this Chamber. Mr. Hinze: I merely asked you. In conclusion, I say once again that the Mr. BROMLEY: Well, I say that in this Bill is a good one and a step in the right particular case I am not. direction. I join with other members who h~ve spoken favourably on it, and I com­ Mr. Murray: Nobody could accuse you pliment those who have been responsible for of allowing politics to play a part. its introduction. 3450 Forestry Act [1 APRIL] Amendment Bill

Mr. DEAN (Sandgate) (3.54 p.m.): fisherman who comes along and throws a Although I do not intend .to say very much, line into the water should be fined (unfor­ I feel impelled to make some contribution tunately, in some cases he is). People of to the debate. The purpose of the Bill is "to that type are not the real culprits in the amend the Forestry Act 1959-1968 in cer­ destruction of fish and marine growth in the tain particulars with a view to providing rivers. The principal offenders are those who for the establishment of marine national go there day in, day out each month. The parks". Naturally, I fully support the shadow Pine Rivers basin would be a natural place Minister for Lands (Mr. O'Donnell) who led to study marine life on this section of the in the debate for the Opposition. coast. As I have said before in respect of other I turn now to what is being done by the Bills brought down in this Chamber, many bait prawners. They have had to leave the important matters have been raised. Will the Brisbane River because they can no longer Act be policed? If so, how will it be make a living there, but I do not see why policed? they should be permitted, as they are at The hon. member for Cairns made an present, to drag the Pine Rivers seven days a excellent contribution to the debate. He has week for bait prawns. Prawns for bait are a wide knowledge of the Cairns area, and necessary, but I think a balance should be one could tell immediately he spoke that struck. If what is going on now is allowed he knew what he was talking about and was to continue, it will not be long before marine sincere in what he said. The same could life in the Pine Rivers is ruined. be said of the hon. member for Mackay, It will not be much use creating marine whose electorate is adjacent to one of the most national parks if people are allowed to sail important areas of the Great Barrier Reef. round Moreton Bay at week-ends, as they I have had the pleasure of visiting that area are at present, with high-powered rifles and frequently, and, even with the limitation of shotguns destroying marine life. You, Mr. movement that I have, I could appreciate the Houghton, would move around the Bay more reef's attractions and their value to the State. than I do, and you would be aware of the It is a pity that legislation such as that at destruction that takes place by stupid people present proposed was not passed some years wantonly firing at all kinds of birds and ago to protect what has now gone beyond marine life. recall. Some of the great river fiats and I know it will be very hard to police the waterways in the Sandgate, Redcliffe and Bill, but I am saying these things in the hope Gold Coast areas have gone for ever. that the Minister will provide adequate penal­ Development has come to those areas, but ties and discuss with his officers publicising I am not sure that it always has been widely the need for people to take an interest common-sense development. In some instances and a pride in natural marine life. it is necessary to make sacrifices for pro­ As you know, Mr. Houghton, within both gress, but I think the hon. member for South our electorates there is a restriction on prawn­ Coast will agree with me that wanton ing boats coming within a mile of the fore­ destruction of valuable bird and marine life shore. Everybody in the area knows what has taken place along the waterways and happens. Very often under the cover of dark­ river fiats in the Gold Coast area, which ness the prawning fleet comes much closer to was its natural habitat. the shore than the prescribed limit. The Mr. Hinze: Not in the last five years; purpose of the one-mile limit, of course, was not since I have been the member for the to give the prawns a chance to breed. Prawn area. It happened before then. numbers have been greatly reduced because of the activities of the prawners. Mr. DEAN: I am not blaming the hon. I can well remember years ago the wonder­ member, but I think that in the last five years ful flocks of wild birds on the fiats at Bald the destruction to which I referred has been Hills, in the Pine Rivers basin. Brolgas were accelerated. I am not opposed to the use prolific in those days, but they have now of bulldozers and earthmoving equipment in almost completely disappeared because people the proper places, but I think much more did not take a natural pride in the bird life planning should have been done to preserve of the area. The same thing happened to the marine and bird life in some areas of the valuable fish in the Pine Rivers. I have been Gokl Coast in which development has now told by marine people at the university that taken place. most of that bird and marine life has gone. The Pine Rivers basin also has great I am stressing these points in an appeal to the potential for the establishment of marine Minister to give wide publicity to the Bill. national parks. Pollution is very closely lt is an important Bill, and it will be a related to the matter now before the Com­ wonderful thing if it can be properly mittee, and it has created havoc in the Pine enforced. People have ,to be made to realise Rivers area. Wanton destruction is taking that they must play the game. place in that area each day of the week Mention has been made of the destruction because of inadequate policing of the water­ along island foreshores, particularly on More­ ways and the fact that the penalties imposed ton Island, where anyone who sits on the when people are caught are not sufficiently beach or fishes from the beach takes his life heavy. I do not mean, of course, that every in his hands during some week-ends because Forestry Act (1 APRIL] Amendment Bill 3451 of the operation of beach-buggies. No doubt With all the considerations that the hon. they are very useful vehicles as long as they member for Barcoo has so graphically are driven intelligently, but they, too, can described as being of benefit to the country lead to the type of destruction that we are in the long run-as well as some immediate trying to prevent by the Bill. ones-there come, of course, the other con­ I support what the hon. member for Cairns siderations of the probable real motives that said about making a sensible approach in this I believe lie behind the introduction of this matter. I do not want to create the impres­ Bill at this juncture-at the end of a session sion that I wish to blanket a whole area so and just prior to a long parliamentary recess. that nobody can enjoy its natural attributes In the light of my experience in this place or engage in his favourite sport. The hon. during the past two years, I cannot help member pointed out very forcefully and entertaining grave suspicions. As I have sensibly that we need a balanced outlook said, this is a very important Bill; its towards water sports, particularly the activities ramifications are tremendous and its effects of spear-fishermen. He made his point well. will be far-reaching in time as well as for Spear-fishermen can do a lot of damage. the whole of the east coast of Australia. Some of them now wear such elaborate gear Therefore, the cramming of such a Bill that they can remain under water for very into the dying stages of the session, just long periods. prior to recess, makes me a little fearful. We have knowledge of other Bills intro­ Mr. R. Jones: Two hours. duced at the end of sessions, just prior Mr. DEAN: A lot of damage can be done to a recess, and rushed through with in two hours by a spear-fisherman, particu­ indecent haste. One was the very important larly in some of the submerged caves along Education Act Amendment Bill, which was the coast. The class of spear-fisherman who the last Bill dealt with before the Christmas does not use -that type of gear is not greatly recess last year and which was followed by to blame. The number of fish he could catch numerous regulations of far-reaching import in the limited time he can operate would be and of which we had very little notice, if small indeed. any. That is all I have to say. I make a plea The hon. member for Barcoo has intro­ for the bayside areas, which are of interest duced into the debate the matter of aqua­ to metropolitan residents. They lend them­ culture and its possible effect on our future selves admirably for use as marine national economy. He painted an inspiring picture parks, and they should be used not only of what aquaculture could achieve in the for the people's education but also for their future for the hungry people of the world. relaxation and pleasure. In addition, they would assist young people to appreciate the I shall refer briefly to the use of the word natural environment. "terrestrial". I do not say that the use of the word is either right or wrong, but I Mr. BALDWIN (Logan) (4.6 p.m.): No­ point out that I have not seen it used in one listening to the valuable contributions this context or in school textbooks on the from this side of the Committee-and per­ haps one or two from the other side­ science of biology. We know that there are could fail to realise the importance that we ecologies of the land, the surface water and attach to this Bill. As I am possibly the the underwater areas, so I suppose the word last of a long line of speakers, one might was chosen to cover all three. Whether it is wonder what there is left to talk about, but right or wrong, I will not say. certain points have been raised that I think should be furthered and co-ordinated. Then, I want to deal at length with the effect that of course, I have my own right, as represen­ the Bill will have on the northern end of the tative of the electorate of Logan, in which Logan electorate, which contains five islands. there is nearly 3,000 square miles of bay North Stradbroke Island has been in the water and more than 150 miles of island news lately in the matter of mining and resi­ and mainland coastline with all the activity dential development versus conservation. The that takes place on them, to enter this debate island is separated from the mainland by at any time and, by means of it, to issue between seven and 11 miles of water with a warning on what I feel could happen and a depth in places of 80 feet at low tide. obtain answers to questions I have for the The Minister has said that certain limita­ Minister. tions will be imposed on the areas to be At the outset, I should like to declare my defined to a depth of 42 feet at low water, support for the very able contribution made so I am concerned about the fate of many by our shadow Minister for Lands (the activities in the lower Moreton Bay and hon. member for Barcoo), who led the Redland Bay area. Approximately 70 per debate from this side. With him, I agree cent. of the area of Moreton Bay would on the general desirability and need for such have a depth of less than 40 feet at low legislation as this and, of course as he water, and in those waters all kinds of emphasised, the need to start no~. He activities are engaged in, such as fishing, was followed by the hon. members for recreational, educational and research, as Norman and Salisbury, who raised questions well as tourist activities. Of course, in addi­ that I thought were very apposite and that tion, mineral-sand mining and coral dredging I intend to deal with a little later. are carried out. 3452 Forestry Act [1 APRIL] Amendment Bill

I am looking at the implications in the of fish to the City of Brisbane and environs Minister's remarks against the background of affected. I am only saying "could be previous legislation, and I am reminded of threatened". I do not intend crossing any the Mining Act Amendment Bill, which was bridges before I come to them. As usual. introduced recently and still has to go through I am flashing a warning light so that the its second-reading stage. On the introduction Government will not, willy-nilly, introduce of that Bill 1 said that if it had been intro­ a measure that looks good to it and its duced prior to the Cooloola issue there would mining friends, thinking that we will not see not have been any Cooloola issue. The through it. same remarks apply to off-shore mining, Perhaps this measure will affect those who whether for mineral sands or oil. From what fish out west and who have been so vociferous has been said, I expect that the rights of people engaged in those activities to disturb about this Bill, and those who fish in the the environment will not be limited or Brisbane River, off Hawthorne. restricted in any way. But it seems that the Mr. Davis: There are no fish in Break­ limits on other activities will be rigidly fast Creek. There is too much oil in it policed. now. If I have the time I will deal later with Mr. BALDWIN: That could be so. The skin-divers. From the Minister's outline, pollution factor is very important. conservation appears to be one of the main motives that prompted the introduction of The Minister said there will be marine the Bill. It relates to the general desir­ reserve areas with marine national parks ability of conserving fish life, marine plant in some of them. What buffer area will life and the total marine ecology for the there be? What will be the distance from benefit of future generations. I laughed the outer edge of the marine reserve to when I heard the Minister's comments, the marine park? If it is not great enough, because I though of the possible destruction it is no use establishing them. However, caused by all marine-mining operations, if a large enough buffer zone is established, including those close to the shore. I also the ecology of the marine park will be smiled when I heard about the limits to be protected. If it is not large enough, the placed on spear-fishing and the activities of Government is wasting its "dough" trying recreational fishing clubs, and so on, because to establish them. of the supposed damage they cause. Recently, Mr. Lee: What is a fair buffer area, in during the mullet glut, fishermen took your opinion? hundreds of tons of mullet that they could not sell and dumped it in the bay. They Mr. BALDWIN: In reply to the hon. were offered only lOc or 15c a lb. for it. member for Yeronga, I have been drawn Prawns, too, were dumped during a recent into arguments like this before. I have glut. introduced some technical knowledge and Conservation must be looked at in its Government members have said they are totality. We cannot say, 'This is a very not here to listen to a treatise. Whenever I speak generally, they say I contribute good area; we will declare it a~ a marine reserve, with marine national parks which nothing to the debate. I get the message. will have a bountiful effect on marine life They want me to shut up. That is what and the economy of the marine fishing they would like all Opposition members to industries." If that is the idea, we can expect do. more fish to be available. Can we then Mr. Lee: I do not. expect more gluts and fewer imports of Japanese, Canadian, New Zealand and Mr. BALDWIN: I hope not. I will accept Scandinavian fish to preserve a very valuable the question at its face value. If the hon. industry? member wants that information, the able I want to know how this legislation will technical officers in the Department of Harbours and Marine can give it to him. affect the people who derive their living I will get on with my speech while I still from fishing in Moreton Bay and Redland Bay. I do not know whether marine reserves have time. or parks are envisaged in Moreton Bay. If I am explaining how this legislation could not, it would be bad. Otherwise, these parks affect people in the Logan electorate and will be established in areas remote from the boating and fishing fraternity who come more than 46 per cent. of the population to that area for recreation. They cannot of Queensland. I want to know where they afford to take their families miles away. are to be established, as do other hon. to Cudgen or Maroochydore. There are members on this side of the Chamber. In my thousands of boats berthed in the harbours case, I have a very good reason for wanting in my electorate. I hope that some part to know where they are to be positioned. of Moreton Bay will be declared a marine I want to know what effect they will have reserve and a marine national park for on the economy of the Moreton Bay area. recreation, education and scientific research, The Cleveland depot handles the second­ so that a check can be kept on the pollution largest quantity of finned fish in Queensland, that is coming from the Brisbane River and and the fifth-largest intake of crustaceans. I being carried by the bay currents, simply become very perturbed when these people's because of the Government's lack of ability livelihood could be threatened and the flow or desire to do anything about it. Forestry Act (1 APRIL] AmeudmeJU Bill 3453

We are in favour of the Bill's general food produced on Earth to feed its people. principles. However, I feel in my heart that It will therefore be necessary to look to the it is merely an illusion to trick the people sea. We in this country could take the lead of Queensland into putting up with century­ in this field if we ensure that we have long mineral leases. If all this is so sufficient areas to provide not only enjoyment important, why did the Minister give his for the people but opportunities for experi­ blessing to filling 600-odd acres of the bay ment, research and studv to obtain the and introducing pollution into the middle of maximum food value from this huge it without a sewerage scheme? He has untouched food bowl. I know that similar not answered my last letter on this matter thoughts are in the minds of the Minister in the affirmative. I hope that the whole and his officers in providing large areas as idea is dead and that he never answers national parks. my letter. However, if it is still alive, I There are 1,600 varieties of fish in Queens­ hope he will remember to answer my letter­ land waters, ranging in size from 45 ft. that is, if the Government is still in power. whale sharks to one-inch blennies. That I am dedicated to stopping this plan. When indicates the extent of the research that Labour gains power, I shall fight to have could be undertaken into the preservation the Raby Bay development scheme wiped of marine life by, amongst other methods. off the map, because that area has a pro­ the removal of pollution and other means of fusion of marine and land bird life and changing the environment. By such means, fish life. It covers 600 acres of wetlands, the maximum advantage can be obtained with where fish and fish foods breed and grow. the minimum effort. Brisbane fishermen depend on it. Is it the intention to shove it all out to the other side The Great Barrier Reef has been men­ of the island so that only the big men with tioned by many speakers. Indeed, it should the big boats can get out there, putting out of be mentioned by all, because it is the most business the small men who have a lifetime extensive reef in the world. It is 1,200 of training in the industry and have spent miles long, and it is unique in the type of tens of thousands of dollars on equipment? reef-building coral to be found on it. It provides a habitat for fish, including species I hope that a marine reserve and a marine that have not as yet been exploited com­ national park are established in Moreton mercially but that could provide much food Bay. I hope that the Minister will tell us for the people of Queensland and other parts how it will be managed. I hope that there of the world. I suggest to the Minister that will be future protection and enjoyment for he protect the greatest area possi_b~e. This all. is the time to make such a provlS!on. He should not leave it any later. It is of more Mr. WALLIS-SMITH (Tablelands) (4.25 advantage to excise a larg.e _area for . a p.m.): The introductory remarks of each marine national park than 1t IS to exc1sc speaker on this side of the Chamber have an area that is too small. We should indicated the Opposition's assessment of the consider the 3,236 miles of coastline and value of the Bill. I commend the Minister establish a series of marine national parks, and his departmental officers on its not only one or two, covering every possible introduction. type of sea-bed, climatic condition, o~ean Over the years a great amount of effort temperature, and areas of high and low tides. has gone into obtaining areas of land for There is also a great need to protect bird national parks. The reason for the difficulty is that the land required has been settled, life that depends on the sea, the islands off sometimes closely. This difficulty should not the coast and the adjacent coastline for apply in the case of marine national parks. existence. After the cyclone in the Gulf of Carpentaria in 1964, it was found that The purpose of the Bill is to amend the every tree was stripped of its leaves and Forestry Act "with a view to providing for birds had nowhere to nest. That was a the establishment of marine national parks." classic example of the effect on birds of With a coastline of 3,236 miles, Queensland interference with the environment. They has the advantage of having quite a large area were nesting in unprotected trees at the from which to choose national parks. The mouths of the Mitchell and other Gulf riven area to the 3-mile limit is 9,600 square miles, and, consequently, were at the ;nercy of and to the 12-mile limit it is 38,000 square larger birds that preyed on the1r young. miles. That area does not include the areas surrounding many of the islands. The I point out to the Committee that Bedarra possibilities are therefore boundless for the Island, which is off Tully, is a real establishment of sufficient marine national nursery for birds, and one eminent con­ parks to serve the community for many servationist, Mr. John Orrell, goes there .each years. I think that we on this side of the year, without fail, for his holid_ay. The Chamber would be quite prepared to agree Minister and his officers could g1ve many with whatever sites and areas the Minister's examples to show how important such nur­ officers see fit to declare as marine national series are. parks. All hon. members know the value of th~ Many scientists today say that, with the Torres Strait area. They are aware of way in which world population is increasing, what is found in the ocean there and th.: by the turn of the century, which is only need for the area to be protected. In tht: 29 years away, there will not be sufficient Gulf of Carpentaria one finds the mouths 111 3454 Forestry Act [I APRIL] Amendment Bill of rivers that flow from areas in which In an era when we are aware of the there is regular rainfall. Those rivers are necessity to look at all the interrelated flushed out each year, and that creates factors of our ecology, and require biologists, conditions suitable for the marine life in mineralogists and ecologists in various fields the estuaries and the adjacent sea. I suggest to appraise and relate their accumulated to the Minister that he study some of the knowledge, it is paradoxical that we have suggestions I made to his predecessor rela­ a mining law which in effect says that, tive to the establishment of a national park irrespective of the conclusions of these know­ along the foreshores of the Gulf of Car­ ledgeable men, the need of the community pentaria. Such a national park could quite for minerals will be the deciding factor in easily include the river estuaries. There usage of a certain piece of territory. I have would not be any difficulty in excising these not studied the history of the Mining Act, areas. but I should imagine that that concept I suggest also that marine national parks originated at about the time of the Ballarat could be declared wherever Aboriginal com­ gold rush when the great stimulant to com­ munities have been established in the Gulf merce and our economy was gold. I accept of Carpentaria and on the east coast of that that would have been fair enough in thosv. Cape York Peninsula. early days of small population and massive natural resources, but surely it is now an I leave those thoughts with the Minister, outdated concept in view of the dangers and I join with the shadow Minister for recognised by so many people more expert Lands (Mr. O'Donnell) and other Opposition than us. members in giving a blessing to the proposed It is all very well to say that I am reflecting Bill. I trust that the Minister will ensure on the Minister for Mines, but I am not. that its provisions are implemented and ade­ He is an expendable commodity, just as quately policed, and I should say that not we all are. It is no use saying that we have only every member of the Opposition but a responsible Minister for Mines. At any also each and every person in Queensland time we could have one who is not. I am would be happy and pleased to assist him talking about the principle of allowing one in any way possible. department to decide, irrespective of evidence I shall reserve further comments till I to the contrary, that there will be certain have examined the contents of the Bill. usage of land, basing its decision purely on its mineral content. We would expect the Mr. BLAKE (lsis) (4.35 p.m.): First of all, department and the Minister to be respons­ I shall reply to the Government member who ible, but they could be misled on the import­ asked how many of us would be speaking. ance of preserving the ecology of our There are 31 members on the Opposition side environment for the eventual survival of man. who are intensely interested in the important Many people have spoken about the aqua­ measure before the Committee, which cultural potential of great areas of our State, acknowledges the importance of the ecology and various other things. They were as of our natural assets. knowledgeable as I am on many of those I asked quite recently for an extension of matters, if not more so, but I am going to the study of land usage that is taking place take the liberty, Mr. Wharton, of touching on the mainland in my area to take in a on one subject which you might think is unimportant but on which I think I am place of major importance in my electorate, probably more qualified to speak than any­ namely, Fraser Island. body else in this Chamber. It is the odorous I welcome some practical manifestation reputation that has grown up around the of the Government's awareness of the need underwater spear-fisherman or skin-diver, a to protect our priceless natural assets, and reputation that has been well earned in the the related ecology on which many of them past but that is no longer valid in the face depend, before it is too late. All sections of of knowledge and realisation of the actions government and of the community, not only of responsible people in the Underwater here but throughout the world, are becoming Spear Fishing Association. increasingly aware of the importance of the Mr. Davies: You are a very experienced related ecology of our environment. They underwater fisherman? are also learning that, if that relationship is disturbed, the environment in which man Mr. BLAKE: Since the hon. member for has thrived and progressed will quickly Maryborough asks me, I believe that I was deteriorate. We all tend to think of our the first or the second man to become a free­ assets as they are, rather than what they skin diver in the State of Queensland. could be when developed or what they would Another man by the name of Doug Garth be if they were allowed to deteriorate or from Maroochydore claims to be the first degenerate. Surely it is our duty to think in and neither of us can determine with any terms of what these assets, which we take for accuracy who was the first, but we believe granted, could be in the future, and what a that one of us was. great liability or loss they could be without proper handling or husbanding by the people I am still spear-fishing today, though I will who have the responsibility at the present admit that my objective is more to observe time. fish than to shoot them. I am sure all hon. Forestry Act [1 APRIL] Amendment Bill 3455

members will realise that, as mature persons, being ruined by irresponsible spear-fishermen. they have a greater tendency to admire Recently a new patrol boat fitted with twin objects of interest rather than attack them. 60 h.p. outboard motors has been assigned to carry out patrol work in Hervey Bay, Mr. R. Jones: Like birds. so I hope that the officers of the Queensland Mr. BLAKE: Yes, like birds. Boating Patrol in that area will pay particular attention to the vandals who are despoiling Returning to the subject of spear-fishermen, that man-made reef, which, as I have said, their ranks do contain vandals. There are was conceived, constructed and is being pro­ vandals among line-fishermen. I have known tected by spear-fishermen, who have been people who have pretended to be line-fisher­ denigrated by some hon. members. men dropping plugs of gelignite in marine areas. In my time I have trawled for prawns I admit that certain irresponsible spear­ and I have seen vandals amongst men operat­ fishermen deserve the bad reputation they ing prawn trawlers, but that does not condemn have, but they represent only a minority. them as a class. If we condemn spear­ The true spear-fisherman is the one who fishermen, we might as well condemn line­ scorns the use of scuba gear and prefers fishermen, trawlermen and others connected to use a snorkel in meeting the challenge with maritime activities. of the underwater world. A man who uses When I was trawling, quite legitimately, I scuba gear to take fish is not a skin-diver in saw days when, from a half-hour's trawling, the true sense of the word, and probably he 300 lb. of undersize whiting would be brought dons the gear for the sole purpose of over the side, dead or as good as dead. slaughtering reef fish for his own financial When the cod end of the net was undone and they fell down, the 300 lb. of fish-I suppose gain. I had the experience of visiting a newly they would be lucky to weigh five to the discovered reef one week-end, and returning pound; they were from 4 to 6 inches long­ to it the following week-end only to find it would be dead. Sixty trawlers were operating had been denuded of fish by a couple of in that fleet at that time and, although this unscrupulous fellows who took a couple of did not happen every day, when the condi­ days off during the week to visit the reef in tions were such that those fish were about, their scuba gear and kill thousands of pounds it would happen. Hon. members can imagine of fish. the many tens of thousands of fish that were It is important that we adopt a responsible destroyed by 60 boats. But do not let us attitude to spear-fishermen. Nobody would lose our perspective. Although they were suggest that we ban trawling; yet I have being destroyed they were not being wasted; known of trawlers going into river estuaries they went back into the sea, which has a way under the cover of darkness and scooping up of harvesting its own and regenerating from breeding grounds thousand of pounds of marine life. Much of that dead flesh protected fish. I have known trawlermen would be harvested again in another form. who have gone into the shallows at night­ When anyone points the finger of time, hauled in huge quantities of bream and vandalism at any one section of the com­ then hosed the mud out of the fins and gills to munity, he has to sit down and think, "Am I hide the fact that the fish were caught in a true conservationist or a conservationist only a few feet of water. However, all who demands conservation of everybody else trawlermen should not be condemned simply and have to be excused when it incon­ because a few unscrupulous persons have veniences me?'' Until a person can say with done that. Similarly, we should not condemn truth, "I am a conservationist and its all line-fishermen simply because a few of principles apply to me", he is not a conser­ them attach gelignite to their lines before they vationist or a responsible citizen. drop them over the side. Therefore, all Amongst the spear-fishing fraternity I spear-fishermen should not be condemned know of vandals who should be taken and simply because some lout wearing scuba locked up and I hope that under our laws gear goes onto some reef and literally shoots they will be. I am saying that not as a it to pieces. I repeat, the Spear Fishing member of Parliament, but as a spear­ Association is a fine body of fellows, and fisherman, and my opinion is shared by the its members are really amateur marine Underwater Spear Fishing Association. biologists. Members of that association are the most As one hon. member has said, local ardent and responsible marine conserva­ knowledge is a wonderful thing. A failing tionists I know. They are doing more to of the human race is that people tend to promote marine conservation than anybody scorn the academic. An equally bad failing else. is apparent when the academic or scientist In Hervey Bay an artificial reef has been tends to condemn the layman. Many oppor­ constructed, largely by members of the tunities are being missed by these sections association, but, of course, with the assist­ in our community not getting together and ance of other sections of the community. pooling their knowledge. After all, it may It is an ideal spot for those people who take a scientist a lifetime to learn what wish merely to observe fish in their natural he knows, but it takes the cumulative life­ habitat as well as other people who are times of others working in this field to interested in the study of fish. Unfortunately, collate facts on which he can build his however, portions of that man-made reef are scientific research. 3456 Forestry Act [1 APRIL] Amendment Bill

Some spear-fishermen are the most ardent with the late Captain Paulsen to obtain land amateur marine biologists. Anyone who there for the establishment of a marine scorns what they can contribute to scientific research station. Because of assistance from knowledge is not fair to himself, the spear­ the Barrier Reef Committee, the research fishermen or the community at large. In station has grown. Today, scholars from many cases, intolerance is the greatest stum­ all parts of the world take advantage of bling block to progress. I accept that there are the facilities available at the research station larrikins and louts in the underwater spear­ and the many specimens that exist in the fishing group, but anybody who acted in that surrounding reefs and islands. way would he thrown out of the Underwater Between the days of my childhood and Spear Fishing Association. I hope that the now, the beautiful shell life on Heron Island feelings about spear-fishermen do not destroy has gradually disappeared. This has been a common-sense approach to the setting of caused mainly by tourists. The islands that boundaries for marine parks. are not popular with tourists, and have no I agree that spear-fishermen could frighten permanent tourist resort, still have this shelf fish, if the fish were in a small area, but surely life. Heron Island did not have a safe we will not set aside hundreds of thousands approach channel or a safe mooring area of square miles as marine parks and expect and, in the creation of them. a good deal tourists to rub noses under water with fish of the reef at Heron Island was destroyed. anywhere in that area. We could provide the However, tourists and other interested people necessary facilities in 1,000 acres here or can still experience the pride of going across 2,000 acres there for that simple purpose, the reef in low tide and observing its beauty although 10,000 acres may be required for and its pecularities. ecology purposes. If we keep everything in it~ Near the South End Wharf at the entrance proper perspective I feel there will be no need of Port Curtis, which is known as "The to exclude any section of the community from Gut". a considerable amount of coral has responsible enjoyment of our marvellous grown in the past few years. A beautiful natural assets. When the details of .the Bill coral garden existed there many years ago. are made known, I hope it will be seen that a It was destroyed by vandals and people who practical outlook has been adopted. collected coral specimens. Under the vigilant Mr. HANSON (Port Curtis) (4.53 p.m.): eye of many residents and others, the coral Fortunately, I come from an area that has has been allowed to grow again. There is easy access to some of the most beautiful regrowth in this area. While it is only a Barrier Reef grounds. The Capricorn and small area, it proves conclusively what can Bunker Groups are easily accessible from be done if people accept their responsibility. Gladstone, being not very many sea miles In this case some of .the marine beauty of away. Polmaise Reef, at Rock Cod Shoals, the State has been kept intact. It has not j., the first reef to be sighted, about 20 miles fallen prey to avaricious peopk who would from Gladstone. destroy it. Over many years I have taken an avid I noted regretfully som~ months ago that interest in the Great Barrier Reef. Like the the men on the raft "Ra H" reported seeing hon. member for Barcoo, I welcome in prin­ oil slicks in the shipping lanes of th~ ciple this measure, which is designed to Atlantic Ocean. Unfortunately, the Great facilitate the creation of marine national Barrier Reef has been plagLI~d with this parks. However, it is long overdue. When I problem for many years. I can well entered this Chamber in 1963, in my maiden remember, when I was a child, bathing at speech-and in subsequent questions in the North West Island and being covered with early months of my parliamentary representa­ oil. That was many years ago. Stern tion-! tried to impress upon the Govern­ measures should be .taken to prevent th~ ment the necessity to get on its hind legs and discharge of oil from >hips that use our urge the Commonwealth Government to do shipping lanes. something about stopping the defence forces As one hon. member suggested, it is from having target practice near two of the not a question of simply marking off marine most beautiful coral atolls off the shores of national parks with buoys. One must go Queensland, namely, the surrounds of Fairfax onto the reef to appreciate what it is like. Island and Hoskin Reef. The R.A.A.F. and From Gladstone it is possible to visit reefs the Navy were dropping both live and dummy which are very good fishing grounds, such shells in the area and wreaking untold as Polmaise Reef, which is 25 miles out, destruction. By way of repeated questions, and see it at low tide. In addition, it is and various Press articles, I believe I was possible to land on Mast Head Island, which responsible for the cessation of that practice. is about 30 miles out. It is also possible Apparently my complaint reached the ears to go 240 miles out to the Swain Reefs. of someone in the Federal Government. much of which area is uncharted. Further although I do not know that I was successful out still is Saumarez Reef. Those islands in getting on the same wave-length with allow one to appreciate the real variety members of the Queensland administration. and beauty of the Great Barrier Reef. Certain other factors interest me greatly. I fully concur with the statement of the I was a pupil, and in later years a con­ hon. member for Isis about spear-fishing. fidant, of the late ·Professor Goddard. He It is quite true that he was the first person went to Heron Island in 1946 and negotiated in Queen,]and to use an aqualung. For Forestry Act (1 APRIL) Amendment Bill 3457

years he has taken his family on holidays to not vote for me, although there is a ballot­ quite a number of islands in the Capricorn box on the island and I receive quite a large and Bunker groups and has camped .there. majority of the votes there. He is a man who has a great admiration for the beauty of the Great Barrier Reef. I think it is taking things a little too far to say that animals which have been brought Many reef islands are actually coral cays. to the island should be either taken away Heron Island is a coral cay, as are North­ or destroyed. I know that Heron Island west Island, Wilson Island, and all the is not the natural habitat of kangaroos; but islands right down to Lady Elliott Island. when a kangaroo has been on the island This is the one part of the reef in which for a number of years and it has become there is an abundance of coral cays. Although its home, I think it is entitled to stay .there. the islands in the Whitsunday Passage are As far as I am aware, the animal does very beautiful, they were formerly part of not cause any destruction on the island. It the mainland, and, if tourists wish to see seems perfectly healthy, and having it there the reef, they have to travel considerable gives overseas tourists an opportunity to distances from them by boat. Although they see at first hand what a kangaroo looks are regarded as coral islands, they are quite like. different from coral cays. Many of the coral cays have a fringe of oak trees. I am sure that the hon. member for Pandanus groves are in abundance, and there Barcoo and members of his committee will are the pisonia forests, which are really study with great interest the clauses in the beautiful and a haven for the abundance of Bill relative to mining and the authority that bird life on the Barrier Reef. Anyone who is to be given to the Minister for Mines goes to Heron Island in October, or during and Main Roads. I wish the measure well. the following few months, will be amazed to I believe that we should give future genera­ see the migratory mutton birds that come tions the advantage of seeing and appreciating there. the wonders of Queensland's coastline. Since I impress upon the Minister the great I was a small child I have been able to difficulty that will be experienced in policing see at first hand the wonders of the Great what is envisaged in the Bill unless many fine Barrier Reef, and I hope that my children's citizens living along the coastline are children will have a similar opportunity. appointed as protectors to alert the depart­ ment to any potentially destructive activities Mr. B. WOOD (Cook) (5.8 p.m.): I am by people who set out to make money by very pleased to see the interest being taken destroying the State's wonderful assets. in the Bill by all members of the Com­ mittee. I now wish to refer to another matter that is of great concern to many people in this Mr. Casey: It is only Opposition members; State. Often we hear through the news media Government members have not contributed of the intrusion into Queensland waters of anything to the debate. overseas fishermen, particularly from For­ mosa and Japan. Although their main Mr. Sullivan: Who provided the Bill? purpose is fishing for tuna, they have also engaged in other activities that are not con­ Mr. B. WOOD: My electorate is perhaps ducive to the preservation of the Great the one most affected by this proposal, Barrier Reef. I refer to the destruction of the because I think it is common knowledge that giant clam. These activities are very much the first marine national park may extend to be regretted, and I trust that the naval for many miles from Cooktown south. patrols that are to be provided along the Queensland coastline will devote themselves There is no doubt that the area in the assiduously to the task of preventing this far north of Queensland is very attractive destruction of one of Queensland's most to tourists who come there to see the reefs. valuable assets. In particular, almost every tourist who visits North Queensland sees Green Island. Quite recently I was disturbed by some­ Although there are many island holiday thing that I heard concerning Heron Island. resorts along the Great Barrier Reef, I think Although I do not know whether it is that Green Island best displays coral reefs factual, I was told by a person who goes to and best caters for tourists. An underwater Heron Island quite frequently that a decision observatory was built there some years ago. had been made that people on Heron Island It has, of course, been a very profitable will have to get rid of a kangaroo and some enterprise for its owner, but it also is of peacocks that they have taken to the island great interest to the tourists-sometimes 600 from the mainland. Heron Island is visited a day-who visi.t the island. Other facilities by tourists, many of whom come from over­ on the island include a picture theatre, which seas. They travel by air from Brisbane to shows very graphically the various forms Gladstone and then are transported direct to of life on the reef. On my visits to the island. On their return to Gladstone, Green Island I have spoken to a considerable they travel direct to Brisbane and then to number of tourists. In fact, I always make southern capitals. Many people from a point of engaging in conversation with America and other overseas countries have strangers as I go across on the boat. little chance of going to rural areas to see kangaroos. There is one kangaroo on Heron Mr. Thackeray: Green Island is very well [sland that is old enough to vote. It does represented by the hon. member for Cook. 3458 Forestry Act [1 APRIL] Amendment Bill

Mr. B. WOOD: I believe it is. I always Mr. B. WOOD: I understand that, but the make a point of asking people going across sea has a very great capacity to replenish itself. on the boat where they come from, and on Mr. Sullivan interjected. the return trip I ask them what they think Mr. B. WOOD: The Minister is not going of the island. They are all very emphatic to have a few square miles of marine national in their praise of what they have seen. park in one spot and then another few square Mr. Hougbton: That is if it isn't a rough miles of marine national park in an adjacent day. spot. I understand that a marine national park would be fairly large in concept. Mr. B. WOOD: If it is a rough day one Mr. Sullivan: You would not want the needs a strong stomach. Having sailed wholesale taking of coloured sands from around Torres Strait for some time now, my Cooloola, would you? stomach is attuned to the sea. Mr. B. WOOD: This is not the wholesale Of course, there will be further develop­ taking of shells. I do not think any large ment in the Far North. There is the proposed number of shells is being taken at the development of a "seatel''-that is the name moment. given to it-further north. The proposal is for a floating hotel or marina. It is fairly Mr. R. Jones: They are only hobbyists, and indefinite when any public announcements they are licensed to do this. How are they will be made about it. Probably it would going to do it if there is nowhere to go? cater for the more moneyed tourists. Lizard Mr. B. WOOD: That is true; they are Island, further north, although different from hobbyists and nothing more. Green Island, will cater for people who want In the same way, I want to say something to see the reef, and particularly for those who want to fish there. in support of the hon. member for Cairns. Recently we have become aware of the The people from Cairns north will be activities of people who fish with the spear. pleased with .the Bill. They have a very The people we have met have been very special feeling for the Great Barrier Reef, reasonable. They do not use scuba equip­ and great interest in it. Some of them have ment; they use the snorkel, which restricts visited it on numerous occasions. Others may their activities. They are very careful in not have visited it very often. Sometimes their way of fishing. It would seem that these when a person lives near a famed attraction: people also will have great difficulty in fish­ he does not think to visit it. Although the ing, particularly if the area of the marine people of the Far North will be pleased with national park is considerable. this legislation, I want to raise one or two Mr. Sullivan: It has been indicated that points that I know they would want me to there are irresponsibles among them. raise. Mr. B. WOOD: That is so. We know that There are a number of shelling clubs in there are some irresponsible ones. The this area. They are made up of people who Minister could quite simply frame the law to go to the reef at various times, particularly prohibit spear-fishing with scuba equipment. at low tide, to collect a large variety of shells. It would probably be a little more difficult to I shall be very interested to see whether that police, but the legislation generally will be sort of activity can continue under the pro­ very difficult to police and this one item will posals in the Bill. There are not a great not add greatly to the problem. number of people who collect shells. There As a matter of fact, that was the next point are none that I know of who do it for money. I wanted to deal with-the policing of the Those I have come across all do it for their measure. It will not be easy. Three naval own I;Jleasure and to build up their own patrol boats have recently been stationed in collectiOns. If there were commercial interests Cairns, not to police the reef but mainly at stake, perhaps the principles might be to watch over foreign fishing vessels sailing somewhat different. I hope that these people in the area. When we read the Bill we might will be able to continue in much the same way as they have in the past. see that a number of patrol officers with boats will be appointed to overlook this area. Mr. Sullivan: In marine national parks, or I do not know, but something like this outside them? will have to be done. As more and more marine parks are gazetted, we cannot expect Mr. B. WOOD: In marine national parks. that the policing of them will be easy. It is The Minister is shaking his head. The not easy-and it is not being done ade­ indication from the Minister does not seem quately-to police our present national parks very promising. on land. Mr. §ullivan interjected. When we see the Bill we will know the precise boundaries and whether they go Mr. B. WOOD: The shells may be avail­ beyond the 3-mile limit. I can foresee possible able elsewhere, but will they be available problems where Queensland people who have close by? used the reef for years go out there and commit a breach, and are prosecuted. People Mr. Sullivan: People are not permitted to in foreign fishing vessels come in to reef take staghorns from national parks. waters and play greater havoc on the reef, Forestry Act, &c., Bill [1 APRIL] Pawnbrokers Act, &c., Bill 34.59 but they are not prosecuted. We will have Generally, hon. members have accepted to look at the Bill carefully and see what is this Bill, and I shall reply fully to their provided in this regard. It could be very frus­ contributions at the second-reading stage. trating to me and to people in the North However, I should like to refer to some if they were prosecuted simply because it was of the comments now, without dealing easy to prosecute them, while foreigners specifically with any particular hon. member. were permitted to evade the law because of Without any thought of malice, I suggest national and international considerations. that if certain members' constituents are concerned about some particular matter, I make one final point. When the Minister those members tend to forget about their introduced the Bill he named four Govern­ conservation principles. ment departmetns that are to be consulted on proposals concerning marine national As to spear-fishing, I admit that it will parks. One of them was the Department of not be permitted in certain areas. However, Mines. He also said that no mining lease in order to dispel any fears that hon. at present in operation or granted would be members may have, I inform them that affected in any way by the gazettal of a marine national parks will not be created marine national park. It is quite clear, from Coolangatta to Cape York, as it were. then, that mining will be allowed in these The interests of spear-fishing clubs will be areas and will continue to be allowed. In considered, and discussions will take place view of the recent controversy, this is between them and officers of the Forestry something that will have to be watched very Department before national parks are carefully by those who have doubts about declared. We are aware of the popularity mining on the Great Barrier Reef. It of spear-fishing. The hon. member for Isis, who has a practical knowledge of the sport, seems that protection will be afforded to the indicated that certain spear-fishermen are reef from people who live on the shore and irresponsible. I remind hon. members that who may use the reef for various purposes; marine national parks are designed to it would be unfair if similar protection was conserve the marine life that abounds in not given to the reef from overseas or local them. mining companies. I should not like to see any discrimination in this regard, and I will Mr. Casey: He also indicated that there look carefully at the Bill to see what it has are irresponsible line-fishermen. to say on this matter. Mr. SULLIVAN: On reading the Bill, Hon. V. B. SULLIVAN (Condamine­ the hon. member will find that it contains Minister for Lands) (5.19 p.m.), in reply: provisions to control them. It is not my intention to reply at length. The hon. members for Mackay and Cook There has been wide acceptance of the Bill raised the matter of taking shells, gravel for which I am very pleased. I naturally and stones. I point out to them that if expected this, because this is a conservation an area that is presently under the control measure and a further indication that this of the Department of Harbours and Marine Government is genuinely concerned with is included in a marine national park and conservation. However, it was pleasing for me joined up to a terrestrial national park, it to hear the hon. member for Barcoo in will then be regarded as a national park leading the. d.ebate for the Opposition, 'say and the taking of shells and stones from it that the pnnctple of the Bill was acceptable will be prohibited, just as is the taking of to the Opposition. fauna and flora from terrestrial national parks. I was a little concerned when the hon. As hon. members have indicated their member gave us his views on the derivation general agreement with the principles of of the word "terrestrial". I .thought he was the Bill, I do not intend to reply any further right and that, if he was not there were at this stage. My officers and I have made sufficient school-teachers on the 'other side to many notes on the matters raised by hon. take him to task. Even though he has been members, and I shall deal fully with them away fro:n school-teaching for 10 years, I during the next stage of the Bill. should thmk he would have kept touch with the derivation of these words. Motion (Mr. Sullivan) agreed to. Whilst not many Government members Resolution reported. have taken part in . the debate, I assure FIRST READING members on both sides of the Chamber that the Bill has run the gauntlet as it Bill presented and, on motion of Mr. were, at committee level, in discussio~s with Sullivan, read a first time. departmental officers, in debate in the joint Government parties room and finally in PAWNBROKERS ACT AMENDMENT getting Cabinet's approval. ' ' BILL Mr. Casey: It has done a bit better than SECOND READING the Electoral Districts Bill. Hon. A. M. HODGES (Gympie-Minister Mr. SULLIVAN: We are not talking for Works and Housing) (5.26 p.m.): I about that Bill at the moment; it will be move- dealt with at some other time and in some "That the Bill be now read a second other place. time." 3460 Pawnbrokers Act [I APRIL] Amendment Bill

As I mentioned previously, the amendment Mr. NEWTON: I thought the Minister to the Act is a comparatively minor one. said "hours of business". I could be wrong. I have already replied to certain points made [n any case, it would be better if those by the hon. members for Belmont and South were the words in the Bill. Here again Brisbane. In enlarging on my previous the question of abuse arises. We, as the comments, I would say that this amending Opposition, must ensure, whenever we agree legislation is not new to Australia. Similar to any proposal introduced by a Minister provisions are in existence in South Australia. on behalf of the Government, that those concerned are fully protected-in this case, In my mind there does not appear to be members of the police and the pawnbroker. any likelihood of abuse of this law by the police. This seems to have been the main This proposal could stem from the shortage concern of the hon. member for South of police officers in Queensland. The previous Brisbane. I reiterate that there should be basis for calculating how many policemen no fear that the home of a licensed pawn­ were required in Queensland does not apply broker could be forcibly entered at any time in 1971 because of the vast changes that under the new provision. have taken place. The formula is com­ pletely out of date. This is obvious from It is considered that, to effectively control the number of proposals brought forward the 'recovery of stolen property, the present to make the job of police officers easier Act should be amended as proposed. I than it was in the past. We do not oppose commend the Bill to the House. the Bill. On the other hand, we make it clear that the Government should not make Mr. NEWTON (Belmont) (5.28 p.m.): The a habit of introducing Bills to make things Bill has been given very serious considera­ easier simply because there is a shortage tion by members of the Opposition because of police officers. This would not help the it involves a principle that the Opposition position at all. However, an assurance has has always opposed, namely, the right of been given that this piece of legislation will entry by members of the Police Force to any not be abused, and that entry will be made dwelling or place of business. We are forti­ at reasonable times in daylight. fied in our opposition by the provision in many Queensland Acts that, if members of There is one final point that should be the Police Force suspect that someone is made. When a police officer is given in possession of stolen goods, an entry war­ unrestricted right to enter premises and 'rant must be obtained from a justice. We obtain access to books and documents used believe that provision affords protection for in the business of a pawnbroker, he could the police officers because, when asking for find in those documents the names of good a warrant from a justice, they must state citizens who have done nothing wrong but clearly why it is wanted, and what is being who, because of financial problems, have looked for. That gives them certain pro­ had to obtain financial assistance from a tection when they enter any dwelling or pawnbroker. I hope that if such information place of business. Similarly, a pawnbroker falls into the hands of police officers, it will would also be given a safeguard in that he not be used in any way against the people would know how far a police officer could concerned. In my opinion, and in the opinion proceed in carrying out his duty. of the Opposition generally honest citizens who have done nothing that in any way It was gratifying to hear the Minister say concerns the Police Force could be forced this afternoon that this provision will not be to go to pawnbrokers for financial assistance. abused by police officers. The other day I The Minister has indicated that the main said that we had faith and confidence in a reason for seeking right of entry for police big percentage of our police officers. Unfor­ officers is to deal with some types of crime. tunately, some people do not always do the particularly thefts of articles that could finish right thing. up in pawnbrokers' shops. I failed to realise at the introductory stage Provided there is no abuse of the power that the Bill will give members of the sought, and provided the principles of the Police Force the right to enter not only a Bill are not going to be used in an endeavour pawnbroker's shop, but also his home. to overcome the shortage of police officers. Mr. Hodges: That would be his place the Opposition will not oppose the measure. of business, though. Hon. A. M. HODGES (Gympie-Minister Mr. NEWTON: That is true. This causes for Works and Housing) (5.38 p.m.), in me some concern. When the Minister intro­ reply: I can assure the hon. member for duced the Bill, he made it clear that if Belmont that the provisions contained in it was necessary for members of the Police the Bill will not be abused by the highly Force to enter a pawnbroker's place of busi­ qualified officers of the Police Force who ness, whether it be his shop or his house. will be carrying out these duties. Even if it would be done in the normal hours of only one officer carries out the duties, he business of that pawnbroker. However, the is still subject to the discipline of his Bill says, "within reasonable hours". superior officers. With the reorganisation of the Police Force and the realisation by Mr. Hodges: I made that point when I police officers of just how far they can introduced the Bill. advance, I am quite sure that no police officer Vagrants, Gaming, and Other (1 APRIL] Offences Act Amendment Bill 3461 would subject himself to discipline by his It will be noted that in both subsections superior officer or the Commissioner by one of the essential ingredients of charges abusing privileges in carrying out his dut:es. which might arise is that it is necessary to l can also assure the Committee that show that the presence of the person in the police officers treat all matters, and will con­ building or structure is other than for a tinue to treat them, in the strictest of lawful purpose. It can therefore be seen that confidence. If they do not, they breach their the police, before they can invoke the pro­ oath of office and are subject to discipline visions of this legislation, would have to by superior officers. satisfy themselves that the person concerned had no lawful excuse to be on the building I think that those are the two points on or structure. which the hon. member needed reassurance. I appreciate his attitude, and I know how he The proposed legislation does not empower feels about those sections of the Bill. At police to enter any private building to deal the same time, I know that he appreciates with sit-ins. In these particular instances that police officers must have certain powers the police will only be able to enter the to enable them to carry out their duties building on the invitation of some competent as efficiently as they can for the protection person in charge of such building. This is of the majority, the good citizens, of something which I think has not been this State. realised. [ thank the hon. member and the Opposi­ In relation to public places, police do have tion for the manner in which they have certain powers of entry, but, as it stands at received the Bill. Once again I give them the present, police have no power to deal the assurance that the Queensland Police with sit-ins in buildings or parts of buildings Force will implement the provisions of the which could be regarded a> public places. Bill as they ought to be implemented, both for their benefit and for the benefit of the The hon. member for Belmont mentioned public of Queensland generally. the desire of his party to restrict the entry Motion (Mr. Hodges) agreed to. of police to buildings and suchlike by the obtaining of search warrants. I do not think COMMITTEE this is applicable to the proposed legislation. (Mr. Wharton, Burnett, in the chair) As has been previously explained, the right Clauses 1 and 2, as read, agreed to. of police to enter a building other than Bill reported, without an1endment. one which can be fairly described as being a public place is restricted to police being VAGRANTS, GAMING, AND OTHER invited to enter the building by some com­ petent person in charge. OFFENCES ACT AMENDMENT BILL The hon. member also mentioned a cir­ SECOND READING cular allegedly prepared by some police Hon. A. M. HODGES (Gympie-Minister official and circulated to every police station for Works and Housing) (5.42 p.m.): I throughout Australia in relation to persons move- who participated in the Vietnam moratorium "That the Bill be now read a second march. He said that three men were time." arrested at Bundamba by an unidentified con­ stable who was off duty. It seems that there is not a great deal of opposition to the proposed legislation, which I am having inquiries made about this I covered in some depth in my introductory matter, but from the information available speech. However, there does seem to be a it appears that Sergeant 2/C J. C. Strick· fear that police may use recklessly the powers fuss, who is in charge of the Booval Police given them by this legislation to deal with Station, was disturbed during the early hours sit-ins and that they could discriminate of the morning of 12 March. 1971, by voices against trade unionists. In dealing with a coming from about opposite the police number of people who may be implicated residence at Booval. He made inquiries and in incidents envisaged by the new legislation, discovered three young men near a car. One be they university students, trade unionists, of the men was seated in the car whilst or other groups of persons, police are the others were nearby. He discovered directed to use all possible tolerance and that they had a 2-gallon bucket containing persuasion in an endeavour to have the glue or some similar substance, a paint brush people concerned dispersed without com­ and a number of posters advertising a rally mitting any breaches of the peace. It is only organised by the Draft Resisters' Union after this approach has failed that police which was to take place at the People's reluctantly invoke the statutory powers given Park at the corner of Nicholas Street and them by directing the people concerned to Limestone Street, Ipswich. on 13 March, move on, and in some cases arresting them. 1971. The procedure which will be followed in The sergeant questioned the three men in dealing with sit-ins will be no different from respect to a probable breach of the traffic that previously described. In analysing the regulations, but considered that there was legislation dealing with sit-ins, it will be noted no evidence to substantiate any charge. He that the new section 4A is divided into two subsequently furnished a report to the subsections. Inspector of Police, Ipswich, suggesting that 3462 Vagrants, Gaming, and Other [1 APRIL] Offences Act Amendment Bill

inquiries be made as to whether any breach cated by the Minister at the introductory of the local authority ordinances had been stage, these advertisements are inserted committed. mainly for financial gain. The three men were not arrested, and, as The Minister outlined the proposed legis­ far as can be ascertained at this juncture, lation very fully. On the other hand, the Sergeant 2/C Strickfuss was not aware that Opposition has to make sure that in whatever any of them were connected with either the is bei'ng done not only the rights of people Vietnam Moratorium Campaign Committee who might be deceived by advertisements in or the Vietnam moratorium march. the 1Press or other media are protected but also those of persons who may be charged Certainly no circulars concerning these under this section, because the penalty three men, or other persons who may be involved is $500 or imprisonment for six connected with such committee or the Viet. months, or both. Of course, the Bill nam moratorium march, were initiated by contains certain provisions which give an the Commissioner of Police or any other accused person the right to prove that he official of the Queensland Police Department. was not responsible for deceptive advertising. The Commissioner has no knowledge of any other Police Department circulating any such After specifying virtually every medium information. available for advertising of this kind, the Bill then deals with material deposited in There has been a general expression of letter-boxes or thrown onto people's pro­ approval of the proposed legislation, but perty, but we have been unable to find it was contended that the onus of proof, anywhere in it provisions to deal with adver­ as provided for in the legislation where it tising per medium of the telephone. Last shows that the person charged is required night, one of my electors brought to my to give proof of his being lawfully on the notice an incident of this kind. Whilst he relevant part of a building or structure, was was absent at work his wife had been phoned unfair and not in keeping with legislation about a domestic matter. Certain sugges­ already enacted. tions were made to her with the object of This provision relating to onus of proof financial gain. The person who rang did is quite common in the Vagrants, Gaming, not divulge his name, but he indicated that and Other Offences Act. Whilst it would he would be ringing again in a month's time seem from a casual observation that it is to ascertain what had happened and whether necessary for a person charged under this the people concerned would like further assis­ legislation to prove his innocence, that is tance in the matter. My advice to this not correct. It has been held that the person was to report the matter to the responsibility of establishing the guilt of police. The use of a telephone for this a person is upon the complainant. Even type of business could become a very danger­ when the charge involves proof that the ous practice, but it does not appear to be person charged had no lawful excuse, the covered by this legislation. burden, in the sense of the obligation to To return to the provisions of the Bill, adduce evidence that he had lawful excuse, we find that a printer, publisher, proprietor, only shifts on to the person charged as licensee, manager, or a person in charge soon as the complainant by his evidence has of a broadcasting or television station. raised a substantial probability that the cinema or theatre, or any person acting defendant had no lawful excuse. In other under the authority of any of them, can words, it would be foolish of a policeman be warned by a police officer that any to invoke the powers of legislation unless advertisement for which he is responsible he had first established that the person's is false, deceptive or misleading. It then presence was other than for a lawful purpose. goes further and provides that if such warning is not heeded and the person concerned Even allowing for this, it has been held contravenes the Act on a second occasion, that it is not necessary for the person a prosecution can be lodged against him. charged to prove beyond a reasonable doubt Perhaps the provision is not spelt out in that he was lawfully on the place in question. the Bill as simply as I have stated it. He is entitled to an acquittal if the court is satisfied that there is a preponderance of Similar legislation to this already exists evidence in favour of the person in question in other States. The type of protection being lawfully on the building. afforded by the Bill to ,the public is long overdue in this State. It is necessary to It is because of the probability that there protect members of the public from false, would be queries in the minds of hon. mem­ deceptive or misleading advertising, particu­ bers that I have gone into this aspect of larly the type that induces a member of the Bill in some detail. the public to spend money, so the Opposition I commend the Bill to the House. wholeheartedly supports the Bill, even though we believe that certain necessary provisions Mr. NEWTON (Belmont) {5.50 p.m.): The have been omitted from it. As I have measure before the House contains two said, I have in mind particularly advertising principles, one of which has the support of over the telephone. Naturally an offender the Opposition because it gives protection to who does this is hard to track down, and the general public against false, deceptive or it appears that certain people have already misleading advertisements. As was indi- realised that fact. Vagrants, Gaming, and Other [1 APRIL] Offences Act Amendment Bill 3463

Mr. Hodges: You will appreciate that unions with branches in other States claim­ telephones come under Commonwealth ing that this law has been used against jurisdiction. The mischievous use of a members of those unions. The telegram telephone is an offence against Common­ from .the Australian Builders Labourers' weaLth law. Federation makes it clear that recently, in New South Wales, this law was used against Mr. NEWTON: That is so. builders' labourers in that State, and we have been asked not only to oppose the As I have said, it is not easy to track measure, but also to seek the repeal of the down people who advertise over the tele­ Act. The provisions contained in both the phone. However, sooner or later they will principal Act and the Bill concern the make the mistake of mentioning a name, Opposition greatly. They could be used particularly if they are likely to receive by the Government in any state of emergency money from their advel'tising. in Queensland, and this Government is noted [Sitting suspended from 6 to 7.15 p.m.] for enforcing such laws to overcome any situation in this State. Mr. NEWTON: In his second-reading Mr. Bromley: This Bill is typically undemo­ speech, the Minister indicated clearly tl:}at cratic. he expected us to oppose clause 2 of the Bill. After carefully studying the first Mr. NEWTON: That is true. provision in the clause, which contains two Yesterday, for the first time, we received important principles, we are not satisfied a direct answer from the Minister relative with assurances given by the Minister, both to the Public Order Squad of .the Police today and at the introductory stage. The Force. I asked the Minister how many clause has a broad coverage, and, when added policemen constituted the squad how often to an Act that in its present form is very their services had been used, ' how many vicious in its effect on the ordinary person, arrests they had made, what equipment was it becomes the final stage in taking away issued to .them and if it was intended to the rights of the individual. continue the squad in the future and for Irrespective of what might be said about what purpose. The Minister replied that it being a matter of interpretation, so far the squad will be kept in operation and as we are concerned the Bill gives the police will be used in any emergency. That power to deal with any person who they is what the Opposition claimed at the intro­ decide has entered or remained in or upon ductory stage of the Bill. We said that a building without lawful excuse. If a the squad had been established and pointed person is involved in any kind of protest, out-and the Minister has agreed that this he has to convince a police officer that he is ~ight-that. we have witnessed this squad has a good reason for entering or being in takmg part m a number of incidents in a building. Subclause (2) of clause 2 is this State. The power which is being sought no better than subclause (1); it is really by ,the Government in this Bill could if a follow-up on the first provision, and given to some police officers, result i~ a it deals with any person who remains in situation that we do not want .to arise. Despite or upon part of a building or structure or the assurances gi:'en by the Minister tonight, land which is not a public place. If such some of the actions of police officers that a person is approached by a policeman, I have witnessed, some before I entered he has to prove that he has a lawful reason Parliament, leave a lot to be desired. for being there. Mr. Hod~e~: In those days, they did not Ever since the Government took office we have the trammg that they are getting today. have seen the freedoms of the ordinary Mr. NEWTON: One of the things that people being .taken from them. Much of greatly concerns the Opposition today is that our legislation today contains amendments among those resigning from the Police Force inserted by the Government under which are some of its best men. The State is a person is, in effect, tried and convicted losing many of the good men who always before being arrested. It is quite clear handled the difficult situations with the utmost that under this legislation the arre~ting police care. On the other hand, quite a number officer does not have to prove why he made of police officers have been involved in an arrest, or even ask a suspect his name. incidents that have become matters for If he is suspicious he can approach the investigation by high-ranking police officers person, who thereupon has to prove that and event courts, but the names of those he is not breaking the law. The prinicple policemen who have brought the Police is so broad it can be used against anv Force into disrepute do not appear among person, organisa,tion, association or body of the resignations. people who may feel that they have a grievance and want to protest in one way or The Opposition is opposed to the principle another. that the Government has been following in all its actions since it came into office, which As was mentioned by me at the intro­ have had the effect of making a Police ductory stage, and by the Minister tonight, State out of Queensland. this legislation will have no effect on the State's trade union movement. I have Mr. R. E. Moore: You could have received many telegrams . today from State fooled us. 3464 Vagrants, Gaming, and Other [1 APRIL] Offences Act Amendment Bill

Mr. NEWTON: The hon. member for If the Minister had included a provision, Windsor interjects, although he has not been as he did in the Pawnbrokers Act Amend­ in the House for any period of time. ment Bill, very similar to the one that he said at the introductory stage would be in the Mr. R. E. Moore: I have been a citizen. Bill, the Opposition would have accepted it. Mr. NEWTON: He has not been in the But in this instance hon. members on this House to see all that has taken place since side of the Chamber cannot read into the the Government came to office, nor has provision anything like the principle that the he taken notice of all the pieces of legisla­ Minister outlined earlier in this Chamber. tion introduced by the Government that have produced the present situation. We, as the Mr. Hodges: I cannot see how you can Opposition, believe in the right of a say that. person or persons to carry out peaceful demonstrations. Mr. NEWTON: It is up to the Minister, in his reply, to tell the House how he recon­ Mr. Tooth: Including sit-ins? ciles the provisions of the Bill with the principles that he told hon. members in his Mr. NEWTON: Well, they have been introductory and second-reading speeches were accepted till now, and we feel that this written into it. That is what concerns the right should not be taken away by legisla­ Opposition. Hon. members on this side of tion. No evidence has been produced so the Chamber make it clear that they believe far to show that when police have been that any further power in this field would not confronted with such a situation, they have improve the relationship betwen the Police not been able to handle it. Indeed, it Force and the citizens of this State. has been stated that if the police saw a situation in which it was necessary for them Mr. Lonergan: Or the hoodlum element. to intervene in the interests of the general That is all they are-Senator Georges and public, they would intervene. the others. Mr. Hodges: They have, up till now, been Mr. NEWTON: The hon. member for able to do that. A sit-in is a totally different Flinders, who has been a bit of a rebel thing. There is no power in the Act for lately-- them to control sit-ins. That is all I am asking for in this amendment. Mr. Lonergan: I have been a rebel all my life. Mr. NEWTON: But the Bill does not say that-that is the important thing. If Mr. NEWTON: The hon. member is the principles contained in the Bill were endeavouring to get back on side. He exactly as outlined by the Minister, the is dealing with extraneous matters that have Opposition would probably have supported nothing to do with the Bill. them to a certain extent. The Bill is drawn up in such broad terms that what it contains Because the Bill contains two principles, one is different from what the Minister has of which we agree with, the Opposition will, stated. unfortunately, have to vote for the second reading. However, we shall deal with the Mr. Hodges: I explained that at the clause at the Committee stage and make sure introductory stage. that our position, which I indicated on behalf of the Opposition at the introductory stage. Mr. NEWTON: That is so, but what is is made quite clear to the people of Queens­ said in speeches is not written into Bills. land. When an Act has to be interpreted, one looks only at the words written into it, and there The responsibility for writing this principle is a big difference between what is con­ into the present Act, which is one of the tained in these sections of the Bill and what most vicious Acts in Australia, will rest on was outlined by the Minister at the intro­ the Government and the Queensland Police ductory stage and in his second-reading Force, which operates under it. Because of speech. the way in which it has been written into the Act, we do not believe that it will overcome Mr. Tucker: It is the judiciary that finally the difficulties that may arise. If the principle decides. had been spelt out as the Minister spelt it out in his introductory and second-reading Mr. NEWTON: That is so. It depends also speeches and it had been narrowed down to upon the interpretation of the principle by the matters which the Government is con­ members of the Police Force. As I said cerned about, and wishes to give the Police earlier, the provision is as broad as the power to deal with, the position may have Minister could possibly make it. It could been different. I reiterate that, as it stands fit any person in the State, whether he has at the moment, the Opposition will oppose it or has not been involved, and it gives a at the Committee stage. police officer the right to say, "What is your reason for entering this building? Let me Mr. CASEY (Mackay) (7.34 p.m.): I sup­ make it quite clear to you that the onus of port the comments of the hon. member for proving why you are remaining in the Belmont relative to some of the principles that building is on you." have been embodied in the Bill. Vagrants, Gaming, and Other [1 APRIL] Offences Act Amendment Bill 3465

In the latter part of his speech the hon. cover the type of advertising we see in this member dealt mainly with the provision that State when electrical retailers send through has been introduced, as the Minister put it, the post brochures stating such things as to prevent sit-ins in public places or in "Free on application-a brand new refriger­ buildings. A persusal of the Bill shows no ator. Just apply to us." When a person goes mention of sit-ins, and if that were the along to the advertiser's premises he finds purpose behind the introduction of such a that he can get a free refrigerator but only principle in a Bill, one would expect it to if he buys a washing machine, a motor be set out clearly and defined so that Parlia­ mower, an electric steam-and-dry iron and ment and the public of Quensland would know an electric frypan. I think this is a matter exactly what it was intended to cover. As that you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, have been the hon. member for Belmont has so ably concerned about in other spheres. People are pointed out, it could refer to anything. introduced to this type of merchandising by advertising. If the Bill will crack down on It is all very well for the Minister to say people who resort to that type of advertising, that the police will have to satisfy themselves it will do a great service to the consumers of that a person is there unlawfully, but the Bill Queensland. clearly indicates that the onus of proof will he on the person himself. As we know, that Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr. Hooper): is completely opposite to the normally Order! There is too much audible conver­ accepted practice under British justce in this sation on my right. State. I cannot see how the Minister can Mr. CASEY: At one stage during his honestly believe what he said about this speech the hon. member for Belmont principle in his second-reading speech. mentioned people who advertise over the The Minister also said that the police could telephone. From the Minister's reply to enter a private building only on invitation. him, that is a matter for the Commonwealth I see no provision in the Bill to that effect. Government, so apparently this Bill gives this The relevant clause states- Government no power over advertising "Any person who, without lawful excuse through the post. Can I assume that that . . . enters or remains in or upon any is also left to the Commonwealth Govern­ part of a building or structure, whether ment? public or private, or any land occupied or Mr. Hedges: We have that covered in used in connexion therewith, is guilty of an this Bill. offence." Mr. CASEY: Advertising matter thrown As the hon. member for Belmont has pointed onto property or sent or delivered to anyone out, that could be interpreted to refer to any­ is certainly mentioned in the Bill. If it thing. It could refer to sit-ins on jobs. They is covered, I sincerely hope that strong are not uncommon; they have occurred in all action will be taken against persons who spheres. They have happened with nurses; violate the privacy of others by forwarding they have happened with building workers; such material to them. This is one of the they have happened with all sorts of people. avenues that is currently being used most; People concerned about safety on the job, or not by small advertisers but by national concerned about some problem with .their advertisers, in order to mislead ordinary work, have sat in or on their job until they people in the community. As the Postal could get a hearing of their complaint. People Department is incurring losses, I suppose it have been prepared to stay down mines to could be said that it is subsidising these bring their problems to the notice of the advertisers. This is a cheap method of authorities. The principle embodied in the getting material to the public. We have all Bill could apply to any class of sit-in. There seen the postman delivering it. It is bulky have even been sit-ins in Parliament Houses. material and it goes by post at the very They are public places or private places, low second-class rate. depending on the way one looks at it. Under Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! the provisions of the Biil there is authority to apprehend any person in Parliament Mr. CASEY: The conversation of Govern­ House. ment members is not greatly disturbing to It is very disturbing to find something like me, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I know that much this coming before us. It is one of the most discussion has been going on to see if agree­ shocking clauses I have seen in a Bill since ment can be reached on redistribution, but I have been in Parliament. Other hon. mem­ I understand that there is no possibility of bers who have been here longer would know agreement. of some as bad or worse that were introduced Mr. R. E. Moore: Are you speaking to by this Government, such as those imple­ this Bill? mented at the time of the conflict in Mt. Isa. I think that the hon. member for Belmont Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! has adequately covered the ground, and I strongly support him. Mr. CASEY: If the Bill covers advertising through the post, then I I wish to add to my comments at the intro­ must bring forward a problem, that of ductory stage about the provisions dealing charitable organisations that use the post with false, deceptive or misleading adver­ to forward raffle tickets and other such tising. I sincerely hope that the Bill will material. I sincerely hope that the Minister 3466 Vagrants, Gaming, and Other [1 APRIL] Offences Act Amendment Bill

does not have these organisations in mind, It is difficult to ascertain whether or not because many of them depend almost entirely the Bill cuts across the provisions of the Con­ on such advertising to obtain funds. How­ sumer Affairs Act, which I consider to be a ever, I think the matter should be considered. very weak piece of legislation. I suggest that I also mentioned at the introductory if the provisions of the Bill are implemented stage a very serious type of false, deceptive properly, the public will receive greater satis­ and misleading advertising that is used in faction than they do from a simple statement relation to drugs. To exemplify the type by the Minister for Labour and Tourism to of material I mean, I will read one such the effect that a person has been "touched". advertisement. It states- And that is about all the Consumer Affairs Bureau is doing. "Friends, do you suffer from the pain of arthritis? Does your rheumatism, your The Bill provides that any person who sciatica or neuralgia cause you misery every publishes any false advertisement or mislead­ time you move?" ing statement that is thrown into or left upon any premises occupied by any person is guilty Mr. R. E. Moore: What is the cure? of an offence. So I issue a warning to Government members that that provision in Mr. CASEY: The hon. member ought to the Bill will have a detrimental effect on be the first customer because not only does Liberal and Country Party advertising at he suffer from it but he delights in giving election-time. it to other people. Mr. Bennett: He has it in the head. Mr. BENNETI (South Brisbane) (7.48 p.m.): I do not propose to tarry too long Mr. CASEY: But not where he sits down, on this Bill. However, I wish to raise some judging from the way he jumps around. points because I desire my remarks on this The advertisement continues- occasion to be consistent with those I made "Have you tried everything without at the introductory stage. It is tragic that relief? Then listen carefully. After 63 the minds of parliamentarians and the general years of clinical tests an amazing new public have become conditioned to the way medicine has been announced-a medicine in which certain sections of the community 7 t times more effective for relieving the have acted and also the manner in which tormenting pain of arthritis and rheu­ certain police officers, who, I concede, are matism." in the minority, have acted. Because of the activities of certain people, parliamentarians That is the type of advertisement that are forced to the conclusion that legislation people who have suffered pain consistently must be introduced to tighten up existing over the years tend to answer in order to legislation and also to erode some of the obtain a cure. They answer these adver­ basic principles of British justice that we tisements and put up their money, but, of have cherished for centuries. course, they are not cured and are left with their arthritis. I feel I am speaking for all lawyers in Mr. R. E. Moore: In 1957 Labour took Queensland when I say that I am alarmed "Vincents" with confidence. by the fact that Parliament has found it necessary to introduce principles that are a Mr. CASEY: I would like to tell a joke radical departure from those that have been about the hon. member for Windsor, but as firmly embedded in the criminal law of this it is a little bit rude I do not think I would State. I have said at other times in this be allowed to. House and other places that, as parliamen­ tarians in Queensland, we have succeeded in These days the "in" thing is to advertise severing the golden thread that, over the weight-reducing diets, and this is the type centuries, has been woven through the fabric that is inserted in publications- of our criminal law.

"FIRST NO-DIET REDUCING WONDER DRUG Despite what may be said by the Deputy "Used Successfully by Thousands of Premier in his present state of frustration Physicians! Lose As Many Pounds As You (and while he is levelling accusations against Like Without Diets of Any Kind, Without the A.L.P.), I have no hesitation in saying Exercise, Without Giving Up the Kinds of that I will continue, as in the past, to offer Food You Love to Eat! strong resistance to any form of totalitarian­ "You'll lose so many pounds without ism or any proposal that may be introduced going on a diet, without exercise, without into this State-or any other country-to doing a single unpleasant thing! Sounds create what is known as a police State. miraculous, but it's all medically proven What we debated all day Tuesday and fact!" Tuesday night last was of paramount import­ People who find it difficult to exercise, and ance to the State and the Parliament. What to use self-control when eating, answer such we have debated on other occasions is an advertisement, only to find that they are equally important, although sometimes it "touched", because by no means are the may be of minor significance. The policy claims genuine and, by the time the person of the Country Party is a matter of interest finds that out, the advertiser has flown. to the State and the Parliament, as are the Unscrupulous people are making a fortune policies of the Liberal Party and the Labour from that type of advertising. Party. However, in ordinary policy matters Vagrants, Gaming, and Other [1 APRIL] Offences Act Amendment Bill 3467 we cannot undermine the people's respect the most important Bills, in principle, that for democracy. If our democratic instru­ has been introduced this session. I concede mentality has a change in policy, which, that it is even more important than the even though it may not be a radical departure redistribution Bill. In one principle, this from existing policy, is a departure from Bill deals with the reversal of .the onus of the fundamental concepts of British justice, proof. we challenge the very foundations of our The other principle is of comparatively democratic instrumentalities and perhaps we insignificant importance, although it is undermine public confidence and respect for important in principle so far as the funda­ our parliamentary institutions. mental concept of justice is concerned. It is I have spoken on these lines previously, seemingly a bagatelle, but necessary. As the but the situation is getting worse and worse. hon. members for Belmont and Mackay I have heard Government members, and have said, it deals with advertisements. l even members on this side of the House, agree that it is necessary, but it does not voice principles that at times conflict with affect the fundamental concept of the pre­ a genuine lawyer's understanding of the basic servation of respect for Parliament. The principles necessary to preserve respect for principle I am talking about is the reversal democracy and Parliament. I have heard of the onus of proof. I feel very strongly them say that because of the actions of about this. To be frank, I am prepared certain minority groups that cause them to go to any lengths to preserve and protect some heartburning, steps must be taken to that principle, and I am prepared to do meet such situations in the community. Lay­ anything to insist on my right to argue about men in Parliament believe it is all right it. to erode the basic principles of our system This trend is getting increasingly danger­ of justice, but the time comes when they are ous, and is reaching the stage where lawyers hoist with their own petard. are displaying a great amount of anxiety about the erosion of accepted principles and I make that statement fearlessly and with­ the reversal of the onus of proof. Let me out apology to anybody. I have argued here make it quite clear that, as a lawyer-and, and in my own circles about the funda­ I believe as a sincere parliamentarian-! mental principles of justice, but, unfortun­ would not be supporting the objection to ately, I have failed more often than I have this Bill were it not for reversal of the onus been successful. But when the interests of of proof. I make no apologies for saying certain individuals or groups-minority or that. I agree with the argument of the hon. majority-are eroded, some people here want member for Belmont, the shadow Police to create a furore. They weep tears of wrath Minister, and the hon. member for Mackay, and bitterness because somebody has had about the reversal of the onus of proof. the audacity and the temerity to include in That is why I am here-to vote against certain legislation a principle with which the introduction of such a proposal should they agreed in other legislation. Anyone who the shadow Minister call for a division. That is frank and forthright, and who believes is the only principle I am arguing, and it that a certain principle is wrong in one is a fundamental one to me. piece of legislation, should also agree, if it refutes a fundamental concept of British It is unfortunate that we have to give justice, that it is wrong in any legislation. this right to the police. It is doubly unfortunate that, when such a privilege is The majority of parliamentarians who are written into our legislation, there will always bona fide and sincere in their desire to be somebody who will abuse it. I support eliminate any cancerous development in what the hon. member for Belmont said society or, alternatively, to protect what they about certain members of the ·Police Force think to be a right, are prepared to com­ abusing the rights and powers entrusted to promise on what have been determined to them. Because it has left an indelible scar be the basic principles in criminal law and on my sense of justice, I again quote the in British justice which have stood the test case of a group of thugs and "hoons" who of time over the centuries. It is only when lived irt Gladstonc Road at one stage and the abrogation of those principles affects who deserved police attention-in the right some group or party in which they are and proper fashion. When the police interested that they are made to understand questioned them they said that, for the how wrong such a compromise is. It is next 10 minutes, they would be members therefore with some degree of anxiety and of the Drug Squad, whereas in fact they with a great deal of reservation that I listen were not. to the debates in this Parliament which The argument that I am presenting is that affect the fundamentai-- parliamentarians, even those on my side of Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The hon. member the House, are at times prepared to support for South Brisbane must realise that, in a an erosion of accepted principles because second-reading speech, he should discuss only there have been abuses by both police officers the principles of the Bill. He seems now and citizens. Although I concede that amend­ to be making an introductory-stage speech. ments to the law are necessary to deal with some situations that confront the police today, Mr. BENNETT: Goodness me! I hope, I will never concede that it is necessary to Mr. Speaker, you have read the Bill. It reverse the onus of proof, which has lxr.n contains only two principles. It is one of admired and respecter! for so long. 3468 Vagrants, Gaming, and Other [1 APRIL] Offences Act Amendment Bill

On the onus of proof, the Bill reads, convict himself with his own evidence and ··proof of such lawful excuse being upon him". on his own oath. The concept is that he That is a shocking exception to the principles has no obligation to do that; but if the of British justice. Under our system of juris­ "proof whereof shall be on him", no longer prudence, which has grown up over the years, does the principle apply that he is not bound a person is deemed to be innocent till proven to give evidence. If he enters the witness guilty by the Crown. Parliament is now being box and is not represented, he may be cross­ asked to say, "He is guilty unless he proves examined by a highly-paid-or reasonably himself innocent." highly-paid-Crown Prosecutor, who will There are good reasons why we should cross-examine him in a professional manner, treasure and preserve the present onus of skilfully and dexterously, and sometimes proof. It is not unfair to the Crown. Very savagely and unfairly. As I said, he might often an accused person cannot afford to not necessarily have the protection of his own employ a lawyer. We have heard a great deal counsel to object to the conduct, technique of claptrap from the hon. member for Towns­ and demeanour of the Crown Prosecutor. vi!le South about the cost of litigation and There are many reasons why people, parlia­ the expense of obtaining the services of a mentarians in particular, should wish to do legal man. I think some Government mem­ all in their power to oppose the fundamental bers even applauded what he said. Yet the principle of the Bill, and that principle is Government is saying in this Bill, "Unless a the reversal of the onus of proof. person can prove that he is innocent, he will In this instance the onus of proof relates be deemed to be guilty." The only way in particularly to what are know colloquially as which a layman, unskilled in the ways of sit-ins. We have been told by the Minister courts and principles of the law, can argue that it is designed to cover these. Surely in court is through the services of an advocate it would be a simple matter for the Crown, which, I will concede, are rather expensive­ or the police, to acquire evidence of an and necessarily so. unlawful sit-in-in other words, that those Mr. Ramsden: He would still have to do who were sitting-in, those who were tres­ it, even if the onus of proof was the other passing, were doing so illegally. Of course, way round. the best evidence one can get as to the illegality of the entry is from the authorised Mr. BENNEIT: No, he would not. In owner or occupier of the premises. Obviously. the Supreme Court, a judge does not take no police will go to a sit-in, as it is called, sides. He merely presides over the trial and and break it up unless they do so at the sees that it is conducted fairly. If the Crown invitation of the authorised owner or does not prove its case to the satisfaction of occupier of the premises. All they have to the jury beyond a reasonable doubt, the do to prove that the entry or the sit-in is. accused, without saying a word, except his o; was, unlawful is to call the owner of plea, during the course of the trial, can be the premises. acquitted. That has happened quite frequently. In particular, the Bill is designed funda­ The accused has the right to say, "I am mentally-and not without a lot of justifi­ innocent until you prove me guilty". cation-to deal with sit-ins at the One might say, "Why should the Crown Queensland University, because the situation have to go to all the expense in proving a there certainly is getting out of hand. Have person guilty?" An accused person is only some secret, private arrangements been made one citizen, and almost inva{iably he is an with the authorities at the Queensland average income-earner. Even if he is a University to break up these unlawful and wealthy man, he has not the right to use the unauthorised sit-ins so that the business of resources of the State to obtain information tertiary education can be continued? I or evidence for use in his defence. The main believe that they have been. But surely reason for placing the onus of proof on the someone at the university will have the guts Crown is that the Crown has the resources of to come into court and say that the sit-in the Crown Law office, and the assistance of was unlawful. the Solicitor-General and the Chief Crown Is the provision designed to protect some­ Prosecutor. one in authority at the university from It may be argued that no actions brought having to come into court and say that the under this section of the legislation will ever students did not have the right to "sit in" go before a jury; that they will go before where they "sat in"? Has not someone at magistrates, who sit as both judge and jury. the university the intestinal fortitude to do That is true, but the principle still applies. that? Why must the onus be put on the The Crown has, in addition, the vast defendant? If the person in authority who resources of a State-wide Police Force, which complains about the sit-in has not the guts can collaborate with Police Forces in other to come into court and say that he called States and countries. If it is possible to the police and did not authorise the sit-in, obtain proof beyond a reasonable doubt, the we should not be wasting our time with him. Crown has the resources to obtain it, and an As there may be some misconception accused person should be deemed to be about the matter, the term "sit-in" is innocent till the Crown gets that proof. colloquial jargon employed mainly by those Again, it has been a fundamental concept who follow that questionable occupation and and principle of British justice that no-one is also used very often by the Press. Of should have to enter the witness box and course, the word "sit-in" could not be written Vagrants, Gaming, and Other [1 APRIL] Offences Act Amendment Bill 3469 into legislation as being strictly legal and For those organisations that cannot get the understandable phraseology. As a lawyer, I Press, cannot pay to go on television and think I am bound in good conscience to say cannot afford advertising, peaceful demon­ that the clause of the Bill that creates the stration in a lawful fashion is certainly a offence that is known colloquially as a laudable and desirable weapon. What I am sit-in is properly drafted and employs correct against is the thuggery of some of those legal terms to cover what the layman knows pugnacious or antagonistic "sitters-in" who as a sit-in. One could not write "sit-in" want to demonstrate not to get their message into the legislation; nor, in my opinion, could over, but just to interfere with public one define the offence more clearly and liberty. I should be able to feel confident that succinctly than it has been defined in the I can call in a police officer or police officers Bill. As a lawyer I find no argument with if I cannot get out of my chambers to go to that, and I think I am bound to concede it. court, or if I cannot get home to be with Under the existing Vagrants, Gaming, and my sick wife, or if I need to go somewhere Other Offences Act, as we know it, provided to catch an aircraft. I do not see why I the occupier of premises does call in the should have to be impeded in my civil services of the police to assist in the removal liberty to go about my lawful task by mugs of trespassers, the police have the right to that sit outside my door and will not shift remove those trespassers, using the reason­ unless I try to walk over them. Then they able amount of force that is necessary for would cry that I was trampling them down. their removal. They have already got that As I have said, man for man not one of right and they will have that obligation when them would be game to sit outside my door. they are called in. I also concede, as far but as a mob they acquire courage. I as I know, that there is no existing legislation certainly think that with that type of that makes sitting-in, as we know it, unlaw­ demonstration we have to call on the police ful unless it takes place in what is known for assistance, but not all types. When we as a public place. Then, of course, it can be have to call for assistance, we invariably dealt with under the Traffic Act. find that a number of policemen are required. They have to be paid their wages. The Police services, when called for and utilised, taxpayer has to foot the bill. Very often are obviously a charge on the taxpayer. We their uniforms become dishevelled or get need many more police in this State. dirty and that costs further money. Gener­ Apparently the Police Department budget is ally speaking, it is expensive for the police such that we cannot afford to employ more. We to attend to these matters. If it is not an know that there is a record number of unsolved offence to sit-in and the assistance of the crimes, but we have not sufficient police to police has been called for, the taxpayer pays investigate them. We know that there is for it and it is literally money down the dissatisfaction in some quarters of the Police drain. If people commit an offence, they Force because it is believed that their wages should contribute to the cost of eliminating or salaries are inadequate. One prominent that offence. member of this Parliament had his home broken into and certain articles stolen. The Therefore, I believe that, since there is offender was never found and one of the no offence as such that can be used to main reasons for that was the numerical charge a real offender, the legislation that inadequacy of the investigation staff of the creates an offence is not undesirable and I C.I.B. The allocation of adequate funds do not think that the creation of an offence to the Police Force is of paramount import­ is unnecessary, provided, as the shadow ance. Minister for Works and Housing says, the authority is not abused. Of course, I con­ At times large numbers of police have had cede that a small minority will abuse the to be called to the university. I have been right. threatened with sit-ins. I have said in other places, and I make no apology for it, that At the moment I have no children who if I want to leave my chambers and go to get are students at the university, but I am my wife-she may be sick and may have to interested in education. 1 am interested in be taken to hospital-! do not want to be seeing that those who guide destinies at the impeded in my progress by a team of university are allowed to do so unimpeded '·yahoos" sitting around my door who will and without threat, fear or intimidation. 1 not let me get out. Man for man I would believe that when the senate of the university take them on quite confidently, but when wants to meet, as representatives of the tax­ they congregate in large packs and act in payers and the Government and in the dingo fashion it is an unfair and unequal interests of the pupils and students, they task. That would be interefering with my and their administrative officers should be liberty as a citizen, and interfering with the able to do so without molestation. In liberties of others. I do not see why any saying that I must add that I do not minority section of the community should be always agree with what the senate decides. able to interfere with the liberty of the I do not always agree with the ideas of individual. certain individual senators, but in performing their duty they should be able to do so I am not opposed to properly arranged, without these scoundrels-to use a euphemis­ duly organised, lawful demonstrations. I tic term-sitting-in with their unclean appear­ encourage them. I think they are desirable. ance, their dirty, dishevelled clothes, their 3470 Vagrants, Gaming, and Other [1 APRIL] Offences Act Amendment Bill

unwashed bare feet on the table in the the point I have fought sincerely and strenu­ senate r~m and trying to intimidate com­ ously to prevent the introduction of the paratively elderly gentlemen.. When .this principle of reversal of the

that it is the right of everyone to demon­ Mr. BROMLEY: Of course .they should strate. The Minister and I, and everyone be, if they are doing something unlawfuL else in this Chamber, demonstrate when we Over the years-particularly in the last make our speeches. We have a right to three or four years-how many times have demonstrate in this place-this "coward's trade union officials and members been castle"-and we get away with murder, hounded by the police for daring to protest whereas the ordinary citizen has not that and stick up for their rights? The Minister right or means of communication, except by should not say .that this will not happen. way of demonstration. Like the hon. mem­ ber for South Brisbane. I do not completely Mr. Hodges: Not unless they commit a favour sit-ins, particularly those that cause breach of the law. undue trouble to others and affect their rights. Mr. BROMLEY: I could tell the Minister about a recent case concerning a breach of Mr. Hodges: Make up your mind. What the law, but as it is in the hands of a do you want? solicitor, I do not intend to mention it. In my opinion, it is a shocking case. The Mr. BROMLEY: If the Minister will listen, hon. member for South Brisbane knows a I shall tell him. I said that I believe good deal about it. Whether the person citizens should have the right to demonstrate, has committed a breach or not, it surely although I do not believe they should demon­ does not take six policemen to drag him strate in an unruly fashion which could out of bed at night. affect the rights of others. The Trades and Labour Council and the Mr. Hodges: That is what I am providing unions affiliated with it will not be happy with for. this provision. Mr. BROMLEY: Perhaps that is what is Mr. Hodges: If they are law-abiding per­ being done about sit-ins, but when I analysed sons, they have nothing to fear. the Bill, which the Minister should do­ Mr. BROMLEY: They are law-abiding l do not think he has-1 found that, without doubt, it took away the rights of certain persons. I defy the Minister to prove other­ individuals. It seems that, more and more, wise. Queensland is becoming a police State, even Mr. Hodges: Then they have nothing to though the Police Force is full of discontent. fear. Resignations are rampant, and its strength is down. Clause 2 will make it even more Mr. BROMLEY: That is the Minister's of a police State. assurance-that they have nothing to fear The hon. member for South Brisbane spoke whatsoever? Does he mean to say that about unsolved crimes and referred to a nobody can go in and take them away when member of this House. I do not know if they are interviewing their union members, he was referring to me. No doubt other and that nobody can stop them from having a hon. members have been in a similar unfor­ talk with their members to see if they are tunate situation. being treated right or from going onto a site to see if the job is safe? When I say that this provision in the Bill will cause trouble, I point out that it Mr. Hodges interjected. has already caused much discontent. I point out that the Trades and Labour Coun­ Mr. BROMLEY: The Bill says they can. cil has stated publicly that it is opposed It might be all right for the Minister to to the measure. Incidentally, today is the say it depends on whether they are law­ first day of April and the Minister must abiding persons or not. The Bill says that be an April-fool if he thinks that people action can be taken, and the onus of proof outside this ·Parliament will be happy with is on the person concerned. The Minister the Bill. should not try to put that one over. I am disappointed in him for saying that. An article in .today's "Telegraph" written by industrial roundsman Max Jessop is The "Telegraph" article also states­ headed, "Trades Hall claims Bill is anti­ "TLC secretary, Mr. F. W. Whitby, said unions". It states- today: "A clash could be looming between the 'We are highly suspicious of the Bill.'" State Government and Trades Hall unions And quite rightly so. If there is to be some over legislation against demonstrations and provision in a Bill, it should be spelt out more sit-ins introduced in Parliament on Friday. clearly. The Minister says that no-one need "The unions claim that although the be afraid if he is not committing a crime. legislation was said by the Police Minister, If that is true, it should be spelt out more Mr. Hedges, to be aimed at demonstrators, clearly in the Bill. That is why I claim that it could also be directed against them." this part of the Bill should be withdrawn. Of course it could. It clearly refers to According to the Press report, Mr. Whitby public buildings and places. continued- Mr. Hodges: If they are in buildings " 'We feel it gives police power to eject unlawfully, shouldn't they be proceeded union officials enaged in their lawful against? business in buildings or on sites. 3472 Vagrants, Gaming, and Other [l APRIL] Offences Act Amendment Bill

'If the Bill becomes law, a union persons unknown. I have a fair idea who official on a visit to premises under the was making them. Detectives from the terms of industrial law will still be liable Criminal Investigation Branch visited that to removal by the police in the event of person and had a talk to him. He flatly a complaint against his presence by the denied that he was the one making the phone owner!'" calls. He laughed and said, "You have noth­ I believe that to be true. I have studied this ing on me, and you never will have. There is principle very closely, and I am definitely nothing in any Act under which you can against it. Nobody can convince me that it is catch me." a good provision. Unless it is substantially I do not think an analysis of the Bill will altered, it should be withdrawn. In fact, reveal anything that will allow this dirty the whole Bill should be withdrawn and pedlar of pornographic filth to be caught. resubmitted. It is badly worded. Those phone calls caused me and my wife I shall now explain why I feel that the considerable distress. The language used was other principle in the Bill is disappointing. vile, and I finished up having the telephone On 12 November, 1969, as reported on page monitored and all calls intercepted. I must 1467 of Volume 252 of "Hansard", I directed thank the P.M.G. Department for their the following question to the Minister- co-operation, and I also pay a tribute to the C.I. Branch officers who came out and inter­ "What action can and will be taken viewed me and whom I subsequently saw at against Victor Colin Coote of Kenmore, the Woolloongabba police station. They were who has an office room at 161 Stanley quite fantastic in their efforts; they were more Street, South Brisbane, and who was co-operative than one could expect of any described in 'Sunday Truth' of November 9 person. I think they did a fantastic job. as 'a convicted filthy photographer and However, the person who made the phone pornography pedlar, who is currently pro­ calls is still at large, and I do not see how he moting a disgusting Australia-wide sex can be apprehended. I sincerely trust he can club'?" be. The Minister's answer reads- The Bill is fairly lengthy, but it makes no "Appropriate police aotion when neces­ mention of this type of pornographic sary evidence is obtained. Convictions material. If I had been able to get hold of have been recorded against Victor Colin the fellow responsible for those phone calls, Coote." he would not be making any more calls. I The following day, as reported on page 1493 do not think people should take the law into of the same volume, I asked the following their own hands, but one is surely entitled to question of the Minister- some retribution against a person who has "In view of his Answer to my Question been doing him harm by means of annoying on November 12, will he have inquiries telephone calls. My wife and I went through made as to the source of publication and a shocking time. Possibly after this speech circulation of the booklets referred to on tonight, the same thing will happen again. the photographic sheets produced?" It is difficult to track this type of person The Minister's answer was "Yes." down. I know that on many occasions detec­ tives went to the house of the fellow they Mr. Hughes: Was it "Semper Floreat" and suspected, but he just laughed at them. I other university papers? have heard, too, of some other shocking material in which he and his mates deal. Mr. BROMLEY: No. I do not think the Minister will mind my Today's "Telegraph" contains an article saying that he told me in a private conversa­ headed, "Mail enticement on pornography." tion that he intended to introduce a Bill to I have been dealing with pornography. The Bill deals with false, deceptive or misleading deal "ith thes~ pedlars of pornography, as they were described in answer to a question advertisements and mail sent through the in the House ::.Jday. No doubt this Bill is the post, but it does not refer in any detail to one referred to on that occasion by the pornography. The "Telegraph" article Minister. I interjected on the Minister this reads- morning and said that I thought he should "A Port Adelaide Customs agent clerk have introduced the Bill last year. I was quite who answered an advertisement offering serious about that, because I originally part-time work has received a letter entic­ broached the subject in 1969. I am very ing him to join a pornography club." happy that the Bill has been introduced, but, The remainder of the article is self­ on analysing it fairly closely, I find that it explanatory. Fortunately, the person conerned will not meet the situation. It contains no -Mr. R. Huntington, of Greenacres, reference to pornographic material and its Adelaide-did the right thing when he distribution through the mail, which is now answered the advertisement and received the taking place in Brisbane. letter in reply. He handed to the police the As a result of my asking those questions three foolscap pages, which arrived in a in the House, my wife and I were subjected plain brown envelope. No doubt the person to a number of telephone calls throughout who sent the material to him will be caught. the day and evening, and up till 2.30 and and I hope the police in this State will also 3 o'clock in the morning, by a person or be successful in their investigations. Vagrants, Gaming, and Other [1 APRIL] Offences Act Amendment Bill 3473

The provisions of the Bill have quite a because the whole thing is tied up with false. lot to do with what might be called nuisance deceptive or misleading advertising material mail. Pornographic material that comes sent through the mail, and so on. through the mail is a type of nuisance mail, and I intend to have something more to I mentioned nuisance mail before. I shall say about that later. However, I refer now tell the House about one of the worst firms to an article in "Sunday Truth" of 28 March, in Australia, and probably the world­ 1971, headed "Police Crack down on Porno Reader's Digest. I had been on the mailing Racket". It describes the type of material list for a very long time but unfortunately in which the people concerned are dealing, I never had much time to read the books. and it says- I used to take copies up to the Repatriation "Commonwealth and State police made Hospital or give them to other people to a combined swoop last week as the first read. They used to mount up because we step in an intensified campaign to cripple in Parliament do not have much time for the multi-million-dollar pornography leisure reading. Of course, members of industry." Parliament receive accounts from here. there and everywhere. I just sign cheques am not a wowser by any means. I do not and post them away. believe in complete censorship. However, I believe that there is a time when we must Mr. R. E. Moore: You would be a verY put our foot down and impose censorship bad businessman if you do not check you'r ·on filthy, rotten pornography. No-one minds accounts. a joke that deals with something that is natural; but when we are faced with plain, Mr. BROMLEY: I check my accounts downright filth, we, as responsible legislators, if they come to my home, but this firm -should do something about it. was cunning enough to send an account to my private address and an account to In my opinion, the police squad investi­ Parliament House, even though I was gating these matters in Queensland should be receiving only one issue at a time. When increased substantially in strength. Porno­ I realised what had been happening and graphic material is continually being sent complained, the firm did not make any through the mail, and the combined raid refund. Its system is computerised, with on an office in Tweed Heads was stirred by no personal attention. It is so impersonal what senior police describe as the filthiest and computerised that the signature on most and most blatant sex literature they have of the mail is "Caroline Davis", whereas ever seen. No doubt others are combining there is no such person. It is a completely with the people at Tweed Heads in a racket fictitious name. I do not even know whether throughout Australia. Probably Tweed Heads "Caroline Davis" is a female. I wrote is one of the places from which they can several times, and then after having so much send this material through the mail, and it rubbish poured into my letter box-nuisance is sent quite openly. As all hon. members mail from Reader's Digest-! wrote another know, it is an offence to do that, but I letter. I wrote to Miss Davis because, in agree with the Minister that, although it my blissful ignorance, I thought she was a is easy to get hold of the material, it is tremendously difficult to track down the real person. I said- person who sends it through the mail. "Dear Miss Davis, The article continued- "I have received an account from your "Police also believe piles of registered Organisation, together with a notice which mail-no doubt containing thousands of states 'this is your third notice about your dollars-is waiting to be co!lected at the unpaid bill'. This statement is completely Tweed Heads Post Office." untrue and furthermore I have not received a free book neither have I received a book The investigation has been in the hands of entitled 'The Black Camel' which is a very competent police officer, Sergeant mentioned on the account and which A. J. Murphy, of the Brisbane Licensing together with the notice, I am returning Squad, and he gave some of the details to with this letter. "Sunday Truth". I believe that he and his small band of officers are doing their best "It is true that I am on the mailing to get rid of the "Big Five", as they are list for the Reader's Digest for twelve called, in this syndicate of sex and smut. months and for which I have paid by Sergeant Murphy is reported to have said- Cheque No. 219524, dated 23rd ApriL "They have got so big now that they 1970. This is not the first time your have clearing houses for their material in firm's accounts system has been at fault other capital cities." and for your information I may mention that I have received many complaints That is all I wish to say about the porno­ from other people." graphy racket. I do not think the Bill will overcome the problem. I do not think its Probably every member of Parliament has provisions contain the necessary teeth or received many complaints. I went on to strength to enable the Police Force to take say- effective action. It is strange to me that "I personally have written to y~mr this legislation has not been worked out Organisation on a previous occaston in conjunction with the Minister for Justice concerning a mistake when accounts sent and the Minister for Labour and Tourism to me were duplicated." 3474 Vagrants, Gaming, and Other [1 APRIL) Offences Act Amendment Bill

"It is obvious that the computer system promotional material but I would just like requires checking. When my paid subscrip­ to add that we do prepare some of our tion for Reader's Digest expires next year, mailings well in advance, so it is just I can assure you that I will no longer possible that you may receive one or two be a subscriber, and in the meantime do more offers before the new instructions not send any other literature of any kind can become effective." to me. I have been receiving them through the mail "Yours in sincere annoyance, ever since, yet they say my letter was taken "Fred P. Bromley careful note of. "(Member for Norman)" Dr. Crawford: Have you ever had an Mr. Ramsden: Did you ever send them argument with a computer in Chicago? You another cheque for that one that bounced? write to an address in Australia and it goes straight through to Chicago and it takes years Mr. BROMLEY: It is getting that way my to get an answer. cheques are likely to bounce at any time. There is no way in the world that the Mr. BROMLEY: Computers cannot talk. Reader's Digest would get another one. They may be all right in some things but when it comes to "personalisation" they The manager had ignored all previous certainly make mistakes. The letter con­ correspondence, but probably because I tinues- signed myself "Yours in sincere annoyance" "Your current magazine subscription he decided that he would acknowledge my expires with the February, 1971, issue and letter. I received a letter with an indecipher­ I have noted that you do not wish to able signature over the typed name "I. J. renew it." Ronis." That could be fictitious, too. He is supposed to be the manager of the Mr. Chinchen: You are much better off Customer Service Division. He wrote to me with pornography than you are with your at my home address for a change, even account. though the other letter had been sent from Mr. BROMLEY: I know more about that Parliament House. He said- because of my association with the hon. "Dear Mr. Bromley, member. The letter continues- "Your letter of September 7th was "! am certainly most sorry that you have directed to my department so that we decided not to maintain your association could make a thorough investigation. with us and can only hope that you might This has now been carried out and I reconsider this and allow us to be of find that an acceptance of our Condensed service to you again at some point in the Books promotional offer, involving a free future. introductory Condensed Book, was received "Yours sincerely, in your name--"- "I. J. Ronis, Manager, Custom Service Division." did not send it down. "And consequently the free volume was Not only I but the hon. member for Towns­ sent to you on April 24, 1970. ville North and other members--even the hon. member for Wavell-have probably "The offer stated that should no more received much nuisance mail in this form. In books be required after the initial free fact, in "Sunday Truth" of 28 February, one, subscribers should advise us and their 1971, this appeared- free trial membership would immediately be cancelled. "The six Australian States are working on draft legislation to stop the mail box "In your case, since we received no nuisance-the receipt by householders of cancellation request--" unsolicited books, records and other sales Everything I received after that I threw in promotion material." the rubbish bin. What I find strange about the Bill we are Mr. Tucker: They did exactly the same discussing is that it is a move to stop useless thing to me. material, yet according to this article and questions that have been asked in this House, Mr. BROMLEY: The letter continues- the various State Attorneys-General are dis­ " ... We sent our next volume in the cussing the identical subject. Why could this series called 'The Black Camel' and other legislation not be brought down by the stories, on a ten days free examination Minister for Justice, perhaps in conjunc­ basis at a price of $3.20. tion with the Minister for Works and "I would like to assure you that both Housing? The article continues- books were despatched in good faith and "A recent conference of the States' at no time did we have any idea that they Attorneys-General called for draft legisla­ had not been safely received. I am tion to plug loop-holes in the existing extremely sorry if we appear to have mis­ laws which allowed business firms to use understood your instructions. the mails for soliciting trade." "We have now cancelled your Condensed Is the Minister for Justice going to bring Books subscription and no more bills will in legislation relating to this nuisance mail? be sent. I have also made a careful note That article suggests that he is, but the that you do not wish to receive any more Minister for Works and Housing is now Vagrants, Gaming, and Other (1 APRIL] Offences Act Amendment Bill 3475 doing that very thing, so I do not know where ''The door seemed to be miles away. we are going. It appears to me that this Just then I played the biggest hunch of my Bill could be withdrawn or amended. The life. I pulled out my cheque book and Bill will not do any good; rather will it do wrote this total stranger a cheque for a lot of harm. $2,000. "Now this act may seem a trifle foolish I feel I should bring to the notice of the to a lot of people, but any man that's got House this month's issue of "Reader's Digest". the 'front' to ask a man he's just met for The front cover can be folded out, and part $2,000 has got to have something going for of it is a coupon that proclaims, "This coupon him." can open the golden door of opportunity for you". That is absolutely false and mis­ Mr. SPEAKER: Order! This is very leading advertising. It says, "Tear out and interesting and entertaining, but it is not very mail today-post free to Golden Products, relevant. 11 Averill St., Rhodes, N.S.W." Under­ Mr. BROMLEY: It deals with false and neath are three squares, and against them misleading advertising. The hon. member for respectively are- Townsvil!e North says he wants to hear the "I endorse your fight against pollution­ happy ending but I am sure, that you, Mr. how can I buy your products?"; Speaker, will not let me tell him. "I'd like to fight pollution and make Mr. Chinchen: I'll bet you don't know some money in my. spare time. Send which Bill we are dealing with. details."; and "I'll fight pollution hard to achieve total Mr. BROMLEY: If the hon. member were financial independence. My income require- to study the Bill, he would know that we ment is $ ...... a month." are dealing with legislation amending the Vagrants, Gaming, and Other Offences Act. The greatest Jot of rubbish in the magazine is One of the main principles in the Bill contained in its first four pages. It is only relates to false, deceptive, or misleading an advertisement, headed, "The Greatest advertisements. Character I Know". Beneath that is a story written by a person named Ash Marshall. Mr. SPEAKER: Order! It has been rather Anyone who wants a laugh should read this lonely for me here while the hon. member article. I do not have time to read it all has been talking to a member at the rear but to give the House some idea of th~ of the House instead of addressing the Chair. rubbish contained in it I shall read portion Mr. BROMLEY: I should imagine that of it. It is supposed to be a true story of a it "-'ould be lonely, Mr. Speaker, but I realise person named Larry Huff, who is the presi­ that you understand ,the Bill. I am trying dent of Golden Products. He is now a to explain to hon. members what it is millionaire, and he started off as a motor in .the Bill that I am not happy about. mechanic. Apparently Mr. Huff interviewed this Ash Marshal! and asked him would he I asked questions in the House about mis­ like to earn some money. To the reply, leading advertisements by Torbral Invest­ "O.K., Mr. Huff, I want in," Mr. Huff said, ments Pty. Ltd. Subsequently I received "You do? Fine! All you have to do now is many letters and phone calls from people give me $2,000." I can do no better than who became entangled in its web by deceptive read from the article. It is as follows:- letters sent through the mail. The question I asked . related to this firm, the spokesman "! almost fainted. Two thousand! What for which said .that people could earn for?' $800 to $1,200 a month by working only "Imagine the situation I was in. Here four hours a week. That would not be is a super relaxed, super smooth Yank, a bad "lurk" if it was any good, which sitting there casually sipping Pepsi. He's I very much doubt. He also said that people got no office. He's just arrived in town could earn $3,000 a month if they cared shacked up in a motel room and he's just to work every day of the week. Incidentally, asked me for two thousand bucks! I was the same firm was tied up with different stunned. firms that became bankrupt. Something "He just sat there smiling without stating should be done about firms-no doubt the another thing. My eyes studied his suit­ Bill will take care of this-that 'have cases by the bed. I wanted to flee. Instead ~ nomin~J capita} of $10,000, but only $8 I said, Two thousand dollars. That's a lot m subscnbed capital. In those circumstances of money to just hand to a stranger. Tell they send out false and misleading advertise­ me again what you have to offer me in ments in nuisance mail. return.' Mr. Hughes: You are talking about the " 'What I'm offering you in return my wrong Bill; this matter relates to the com­ friend, is the opportunity to earn in excess panies legislation. of $50,000 a year, and for a chance like _Mr .. BROMLEY: It has nothing to do that I'm not going to plead with you.' With 1t. I have said that I asked why " 'I want to think about it.' the dause was inserted in .this Bill and not " 'O.K. I'll make you a cup of coffee in the Bill introduced by another Minister. while you do!' Mr. Hughes: Why are you stonewalling? 3476 Vagrants, Gaming, and Other [1 APRIL] Oflences Act Amendmmt Bill

Mr. BROMLEY: I am not stonewalling. than secret police. Very shortly, if we are not careful, we will be living in the Mr. Hughes interjected. 1984 society that George Orwell wrote about. Mr. BROMLEY: I will send the hon. Article 10 states- member a message. "Everyone is entitled in full equality to I have received letters from people who a fair and public hearing by an independent have been taken down by such firms after and impartial tribunal, in the determina­ signing documents and paying in $2,000. tion of his rights and obligations, and of They have been left in the lurch with any criminal charge against him." material that has arrived in poor condition. It is the task of the police to apprehend. I received one letter in which it was said But they are not judge and jury also. This that the person who received the goods legislation offers no alternative to the police had to pay for delivery, a fact which was but to be judge and jury. not included in the original contract. His letter to me reads- Article 11 (i) states- "After reading a ·Press report concern­ "Everyone charged with a penal offence ing this Jot, I feel emboldened to acquaint has the right to be presumed innocent you with further particulars of their until proved guilty according to law at methods. It may be of interest to you." a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence." Fortunately .the writer sent a copy of the letter to the Minister for Justice. In his Yet the Bill states, "Proof of such lawful reply to my question on the matter, the excuse being upon him." The onus of Minister said- proof is placed on the individual. " I have had an opportunity of perusing Article 20 states- a copy of the letter sent to the firm "Everyone has the right to freedom of mentioned. I am having the matter fully peaceful assembly and association." investigated as it is rather disturbing." Under this Bill, it seems that the individual (Time expired.) will have to prove that he is lawfully on a place, whether it is private or public. The Mr. WRIGHT (Rockhampton South) (9.4 principles I have spoken about are being p.m.): I support the remarks of the hon. eroded by this legislation. Therefore, it is member for Belmont, our shadow Minister dangerous legislation. for Works and Housing, and those of previ­ ous Opposition speakers in criticism of the This harks back to the time of the French Bill. I do so because I believe that !he law under which a man had to prove him­ ideas propagated in it are symptomatic of self innocent. As previous members have a dictatorial regime. If they become law, said, it is certainly not British law. It they will erode many individual human rights. has always been the case that a man has The basic conception running through West­ to be proved guilty. However, the Bill ern poJi,tical thought for more than three states emphatically that a person has the centuries has been that the individual citizen onus of proof placed upon him. If this Bill is endowed by nature with certain rights and is passed, woe betide the future of the people freedoms. These rights are embodied in of this State. the freedom of thought, of speech, and As I have said, when we read about Big of conscience. They are principles on which Brother in George Orwell's book, let us society as a whole cannot infringe and it realise that this could happen. This Par­ is the duty of Governments, who should liament is supposed to protect the rights be no more than the mere agents of society, of people, not to take them away. I would to safeguard them. say this is happening here. If this Bill I believe that aspects of the Bill before is passed, in 10 years' time Big Brother us do not safeguard the rights of the will certainly be watching us. Not only individual. Instead, they work against them, will the police have the task of going onto and against the articles of the Universal someone's property without lawful excuse and Declaration of Human Rights. In Britain, saying, "You must prove that what you those articles are safeguarded by the British have done or omitted to do is lawful," but Parliament and the British courts. I believe it will also not be long before we have it is very serious that a Parliament in this the police really watching us and keeping State should introduce legislation which will weightier documents on us than they have erode the rights of every individual in this at the moment. State. One has only to look at the various Mr. Hodges: Why hasn't this happened articles of the document I mention to see since 1931? how true this is. Article 7 states- Mr. WRIGHT: It has been happening. "All are equal before the law and are Mr. Hodges: That section has been in entitled without any discrimination to the Act since 1931. equal protection before the law." Mr. WRIGHT: It is strange how certain One of the tasks of the police is to protect Government members know things about me the individual. If this legislation goes which they should not know. I am not through, they will become nothing more ashamed of these things. The Treasurer Vagrants, Gaming, and Other [1 APRIL) Offences Act Amendment Bill 3477 mised this point one night, and he can long time ago. But we must ensure that quote it in Parliament whenever he likes. there are safeguards against any abuse of But how did he get this information? If power, even if only by a few. the Minister says it has not been going on. The hon. member for Kurilpa spoke about I do not think he understands the position. the will of the majority. I believe that we Mr. Hodges: You certainly couldn't tell should be careful about the "Tyranny of the me. Majority." It is easy for Parliament to make laws in the belief that the majority think in Mr. WRIGHT: I certainly know some a certain v. ay. I believe that too often we things about the Minister. surrender to what might be called "populism". I believe that this is dangerous legislation which could be used against those who justly Mr. Hughes: Haven't you heard of demonstrate. It could be used against trade Rousseau and the common good and general unions. Under the Bill of Rights, through will? this world workers have the right to join Mr. WRIGHT: Yes, I have. I believe that together in unions, and it is their right to if by exercising his freedom and rights a demonstrate for better conditions and to fight person encroaches on the rights of another, he for their economic, political and social rights. should not be permitted to do such things. If this law is enacted, the police will have But I also believe that there must be a safe­ the right to move in on any demonstration. guarding of the basic rights of the minority to The Minister said that individual rights speak and act as their consciences dictate. would be safeguarded. But how long will There must also be safeguards against the he be Minister, and how binding is his careless delegation of power. We have heard word? I do not discount what he has much about the intelligence of some police said. But how binding is it on a police officers. Obviously, certain Ministers believe officer who has a job to do? Will he that some police officers are not very intelli­ remember what the Minister has said on gent, because they are forcing them to this very night, that is, that he must take undertake a special education course. due care, or will he enforce the law as he sees fit? If we are not careful, we will Mr. MHlu: Do you think that is wrong? have a Police State. It is the job of the Mr. WRIGHT: I think any compulsion is Government to protect the people, not to wrong. deprive them of their rights. Mr. Miller: We will all have to be retrained It is strange that if there is a demonstration one day. by waters(de workers, the Government is up Mr. WRIGHT: I accept that in arms. But if there is a demonstration by farmers or a women's organisation, very little It has been said that some police officers is said. It makes me wonder what will happen are not sufficiently educated. Does the if the members of a really militant union, Minister believe that the Police Force is with a just cause, decided to take their rights sufficiently educated? Does the Minister into their own hands and demonstrate against believe that, in times of heat, police officers something that they believed to be wrong. are able to decide what is right and It could then be as it was in 1890, when what is wrong, and to interpret not only what soldiers and police were used against unions; is in the Act but also what the Minister has when they opened fire and men were gaoled said tonight? because they were unionists. It might be said Mr. Hedges: They would do a darn sight "This is 1971. Those things cannot happe~ better than you are doing at the moment. now." But I believe that what is being done now is a start. Mr. WRIGHT: I seem to have stirred the Minister up somewhat. The moment a person's right to be proved guilty is taken away, his basic rights are being We also ought to be careful of whom we eroded. I would prefer to see nine guilty take notice. I think it is time the Press and persons go free than one innocent person other mass media rethought their responsi­ suffer. It is completely wrong that any man bility to the community. Too often all that should have to prove that he is innocent. I they express is "freedom of the Press". I believe that a police officer has now no right believe they have a responsibility to society. to enter a meeting unless invited to do so by too. It is unfortunate that some 300 students the organisers. The Minister may correct me at the university have caused this State, and if I am wrong in saying that. If the Bill Government members, to get up in arms becomes law, police officers will be able to against students. There are 16,000 students at enter any place anywhere. They will be able the university. to enter a meeting and take a man away and Mr. Hod;ge~~ 18,000. have him put in prison for six months or fined $200, if he is unable to prove that he Mr. WRIGHT: All right; it was 16,000 last was there for a lawful reason. There must be year. I am talking about 300-odd students. safeguards against the abuse of power. I am If this law is designed to control 300 students. not attacking police officers, because 99 out what about the rights of the other 17,000- of 100 of them are good men. They have to odd? be, or society would have broken down a Mr. H~~ We want to protect them. 3478 Vagrants, Gaming, and Other (1 APRIL] Offences Act Amendment Bill

Mr. WRIGHT: Does the hon. member think a way that only the Minister for Health it would be fair for him to be taken into could pronounce some of the words-we all custody by police and then have to prove know how good he is at pronouncing scien­ his innocence? tific terms. It will be very difficult to prove that certain advertising statements are false, Government Members interjected. because it has been stated by those doing the advertising that many of the descriptions or Mr. WRIGHT: How would the hon. mem­ qualities associated with certain products are ber for South Coast, or some other hon. no more than gimmicks and are only used to members who have had trouble with the hoodwink the consumer! police, have fared? The ho~. member for South Coast does not deny 1t. How would The Bill provides that any person who any person who has trouble with the police publishes a false advertisement. or ~tatement have fared if .the onus to prove himself is liable to a penalty of $500 or tmpnsonment. innocent had been on him? The Minister for I ask the Minister: what happens to the Industrial Development may laugh. It is person who gives a personal testimony to a obvious that he does not consider this impor­ product? Is that person involved if the tant. I would not expect such an attitude statement is misleading? He may be an from him, because he is supposed to be a actor who does such jobs as part of his man of responsibility, a legislator. normal career. Could such a person be held responsib1e? Could he be imprisoned or Mr. Campbell: I would think it was fined under this legislation? important if I had had trouble with the Mr. Davis interjected. police, which is what you said about Mr. Hinze. Mr. WRIGHT: As the hon. member for Brisbane says, what happens when a person Mr. WRIGHT: Well, I believe he has had endorses a product? I saw on television last trouble with the police. I think it is just night a well-known woman in this State who as well that, when anyone does have trouble endorses a product named "Whiskas". I with the police, they have to prove that he wonder what would happen to her if it could is guilty and that he does not have to prove be proved that the article was not completely his innocence. in accordance with the advertisement or that, As I said earlier, I think that much of the in fact, the advertisement was misleading. blame for the troubles in society can be One could also question whether or not placed on the mass media. If a dog bites the mass media should bear greater responsi­ a man, it is not news; if a man bites a bility, and I notice that the Bill states specifi­ dog, it is news. The Press and the other cally that no responsibility is placc;d on the mass media seem to play up things such as publisher. I wonder whether that ts a good that. Therefore, I say that hon. members thing. I believe that many of the problems should be very careful about agreeing to of false advertising could be overcome if the clause 2 of the Bill simply because there Press, radio and television were made to seems to be "so-called" public opposition to bear some responsibility. To them, it seems student activities. I oppose it because it to be merely a matter of chasing a dollar. If erodes the democratic rights of individuals; the mass media had some responsibility they it erodes the rights that men have fought would be more discriminating about the and died for. advertisements they accepted. I wish to comment also on clause 3 of the I hope the Minister will tell us in his Bill, because I am extremely sceptical about reply how this provision will be administered, the ability of the powers that be to carry and what machinery will be available to the out the principles involved in it when one police to prove that descriptions of and thinks of false, deceptive or misleading advertisements for products are misleading advertising. We all know that it occurs, and and could be deceptive. Something must be that is why a Consumer Affairs Bureau has done about this. It has often been claimed been set up. The Opposition said for many that the Police Force is understaffed. Young years that such a bureau was needed. At officers are being taken away from police last we have it, and I give credit where credit youth clubs. How are we going to staff is due. The question I ask is: what machinery such an organisation? Imagine the size of the will the officers have to enable them to do organisation that would be necessary. to something about false and misleading adver­ investigate every claim made by an advertiser, tising? whether it was "University Tested", "Unbreak­ I recently saw a toothpaste advertisement able", or anything else. on television. It claimed that the toothpaste I have raised the main points that I wish had been university tested. How could to deal with. I question the second principle a police officer or the person in charge of the of the Bill, and ask that the Minister com­ Consumer Affairs Bureau decide whether it ment on my remarks in his reply. I com­ had or had not been university tested? pletely oppose the first principle, under which All hon. members have also seen articles a person must prove himself innocent. advertised as having certain properties-some as being unbreakable, for example-and pre­ Mr. BALDWIN (Logan) (9.21 p.m.): Mr. vious speakers have given instances of incor­ Deputy Speaker-- rect descriptions. Some are described in such Government Members interjected. Vagrants, Gaming, and Other [1 APRIL] Offences Act Amendment Bill 3479

Mr. BALDWIN: Hon. members opposite I will say now that persons who enter interject frequently even when they have private or Government property, or injure nothing constructive to say. That is evidenced anybody, risk the force of the law, but by the lack of support they have given the under this Bill such a group will be reduced Minister in charge of the Bill. They sit there to the status of an individual. I personally and snipe with their well-tried, hackneyed have had to go on to Government property interjections. A schoolboy would blush with and private property with leaflets in order shame if he could do no better. to gain support for movements with which I have been associated. I could say to I enter the debate because I feel very myself, "I will make this lawful; I will strongly about the Bill. My feelings are based ring up the person I am going to see." I on personal experiences, the like of which might be going to see the American consul, hon. members opposite would never have had. or whatever he is called, in Brisbane. I I make no bones about supporting the Opposi­ might telephone him or his secretary and tion's objections to the bad principles of say, "I am coming down to your place the Bill as put forward by our shadow with a deputation. We want to see you. Minister, the hon. member for Belmont. The We want to discuss something with you". Bill is perhaps one of the best examples of He could say, "All right, come on down a sugar-coated pill that I have seen come if you want to". before the House. The superficiality of clause 3 is ostensibly good. Its sugar coating hides We could go into the consulate, or his the great bitterness of the real intent of office, and find that, in the meantime, he clause 2. had rung the police and they were waiting there. Then we would have to give a If we consider ourselves responsible lawful excuse, and a telephone message is people in a legislative body we must ask not a material lawful excuse. The police ourselves: do we really think that what is could then say, "You are on this property embodied in the Bill will cure what it pur­ without lawful excuse. Into Court you go.", ports to cure? It purports to be directed and it would cost us $200. What is the against people who break the law by going protection for people placed in a position onto properties without lawful excuse, like that? I know that Government mem­ remaining there and perhaps committing other bers do not want to protect them. Everyone wrongs. The Minister suggests that they opposite will say, "They should not go should be treated with the utmost rigour of down there." I have heard this on many the law-as if they were criminals, judging occasions. I have been told, "You should by the severity of the fines proposed. not demonstrate. You should not write on a placard. You should not hold one up. If somebody goes on to private or public You should not do anything. You should property with illegal intent, and makes an lie down and take whatever 'democratic' attempt to put that intent into operation to mistakes a misled Government with its the detriment of the owners of the property, greedy sectionalised view likes to mete out or the general public, nobody could say that to you." he should not be punished. But that is not the same as taking part in a demonstration. I am not blaming the police. They have a job to do. They are paid to do it. They I happen to be an old demonstrator. I recognise their contract and their oath. I took part in my first demonstration in 1935, have here an extract that tends to show the although, being a boy of 13, I did not take terrific burden of responsibility for Govern­ a very active part. I did not participate with ment mistakes that is put upon the Police any intent to harm anyone, to be a vandal, Force. I have here a circular letter from to smash or to injure. I was carried along R. M. Tremethick, secretary-treasurer of by the feeling that I had to do something. the Australian Federation of Police Associa­ I was a starvation product of a starvation tions/Unions. It reads- system, and I saw what happened when "Governments depend upon police forces unemployed workers tried to get their to keep the peace and to enforce the message across. They could not pay for various laws made by the Legislature. In expensive advertisements in the Press or the present, as well as in the future over the radio; they could not possibly speak system of community living, the Govern­ with the voice of 250,000 like "The Courier­ ment will not be able to carry out their Mail" or the television. They had to speak role effectively unless supported by an man to man amongst their neighbours and effective Police Force." the only way they could get their message across to the public was by the use of Nothing could be truer. Nothing could placards. That is an effective form of adver­ better illustrate the terrific responsibility tising for people who cannot afford anything placed upon a Police Force. Every member better. of the Police Force who would receive that information, examine it carefully, and find A couple of years ago, in this very what he is called upon to do by this Govern­ State, we saw the spectacle of the most ment would ask himself, "Is it worth it?" brutal force of law used against people I would even go as far as suggesting that who wanted to get their message across to some of the resignations that have occurred the public. Union men have been put into in the Police Force have arisen from the hospital trying to get a message to the questions asked by police officers in their people. own minds. They ask themselves, "Are we 3480 Vagrants, Gaming, and Other [1 APRIL] Offences Act Amendment Bill being made the cat's-paw for the suiting him on that occasion. That officer mistakes of a misdirected, undemocratic and of the law told me that he had the right sectionalised Government?" to come into my home at any time in such The whole principle of the Police Force circumstances and arrest any person, and is based upon the assumption that Govern­ that I had no rights at all. If I had been ments will introduce democratic laws for a vindictive man I could have called all the good of the majority of the people, the witnesses who were present and no and while Governments continue to do doubt got that police officer into trouble. that the police are proud to carry out their But I was not interested in that; rather was duty, because they know they have the I interested in this man's egotistical belief majority of the people behind them. But that he was exerting the right given to him can a policeman ask himself that question by the Government of the day-which, I am today in the light of legislation that has proud to say, was not a Labour Government. been introduced in this Chamber-legislation We must probe these matters, and look that is introduced and then withdrawn in underneath them so that we may be assured shame, and other legislation that is intro­ that they do what they purport to do. This duced and amended within a few months? clause could have been used against me Can a member of the Police Force ask three years ago when I was in the education himself that question and answer in the conflict. If it had been in force, it would affirmative that he is doing the bidding of have been used against me, because I went a Government that will protect the rights onto school property to see head-teachen; of the majority? who were not on my side and would dearly The Government claims that it protects have loved to order me from the premises. the majority, but over the years there has Mr. Hodges: You had a lawful right to been a similarity in its approach. It says, "Law and order must obtain." All of us be there. believe that, but we ask, "Whose law? Whose Mr. BALDWIN: At that time I did. This order? For what purpose?" Who are the happened before I was president of the union, men who organise and lead the demon­ at the time of the education conflict, when I strations against which this law will be was the secretary of The Association for the used? Look back through history at some Advancement of State Education in Queens­ of the men who have been beaten on the land and I had to try to get support. Later I streets by the police, imprisoned and tortured had a right of entry in my pocket from the and who later ended up in Parliament. Take Industrial Commission but what good would Peter Lalor for a start, the leader at the it be under this law? Eureka Stockade. Look where he ended up because he was prepared to demonstrate The education legislation that we passed actively for something in which he believed. last year related to the power of a principal If he had not, where might Australia be or head-teacher over anybody entering his today? We do not know; we can only premises. I see all these matters in toto guess. I do not know how the Government because I have not a compartmentalised, one­ can give a guarantee that the Bill will not track mind; I can link many other things with be used against genuine people. this law. This is not a happening on its own. As the hon. member for Rockhampton To illustrate the point I am making, I South said, it is part and parcel of a general shall tell the House one of my own exper­ process. I repeat that I am concerned mainly iences. One night some years ago a about whether the Government is simply man walked onto my property seeking putting a lid on the ferment, hoping to directions to his home after having aban­ bottle it up. In doing that, will it be doing doned his motor vehicle. In the dark his the Police Force a service? I know that if car bore some similarity to one that had the Government says, "We have to stop this. been stolen. It so happened that an officer of that and the other," it has the Police Force the law saw the car and, as well, saw this and, by amending the Act, it can say, "Go fellow walk along the road and come into my and do it". It can equip the police with riot home. The first thing I said to him was, shields and clubs, which the Yanks and Japs .. Come in, sit down and tell me all about it." have, and can then say, "Go to it; burn them Then, lo and behold, the police officer barged out; smash them out; bash them out; carry straight in, pushed past me and grabbed that them out; kick them out; or do what you man in my living room. He accused him of like." being a car thief and told him that he was In the letter I have, the writer admits that going to arrest him. I said, "You had better get out the door first." this sort of thing is getting worse. He says- "There is no need to point out here the I should point out that this police officer ever increasing rate of crime, the ever­ was in plain clothes with no means of increasing rate of lawlessness in the streets, identification on him. If I had picked up and the ever increasing numbers of radical a piece of 3 x 2 and cracked him over the groups advocating the overthrow of the head, where would I have been? I wonder so-called establishment." what protection I would have had. Only one person could have saved me, and that He makes it read horribly like a revolu­ is the hon. member for South Brisbane. I tionary pact because somebody decides to would have had no compunction about con- demonstrate. Vagrants, Gaming, and Other [1 APRIL] Offences Act Amendment Bill 3481

As long as I live, whether I am here as a The commissioner is going about this. member of Parliament, or in any other place, The Police Force has to be upgraded. So if I see cause to get out on the streets to has the whole of society. I do not know give my message, or have cause as a member what education is being given to the Police of a delegation or deputation to deliver a Force because I have not had time to find message from a lawfully convened meeting of out. I have heard many comments, some my fellows-to anyone, even the Governor­ of them good. I intend to dig into it General-! will do so. That is my right. If myself. Some are pleased and some are not anyone passed on information beforehand because it is not what they want themselves. about what was to happen, so that there But this is merely giving them another was an array of police waiting, he would problem. No amount of education will have trammelled the democratic right on justify, in their minds, this kind of action which our society has grown, and helped to in our society today. I am very sorry in fragment it. Legislation like this adds fuel to one way that I have put myself in the the fire. I know that I will be asked, "What position of opposing what is superficially and would you do?" I will tell the Government ostensibly a good law. But I am very happy what it is doing: it is taking the easy way out. in that I believe I see the reason it must The Government is saying, "Here is our line be opposed. I intend to say more in detail of attack; we will down this rabble by intro­ about that in the Committee stage, if I get ducing more punitive laws. We will show a chance. who is the boss and who looks after law The other part of the Bill seems to be and order." But that is a short-term expensive somewhat incongruous in a Bill of this kind. way of tackling it. It is another attempt to load the Police I am disappointed that the Government, Force down with a duty which seems to which is made up of good fellows personally, be only partly necessary. The hon. member should do that. I hate to think that our for Rockhampton South said that this should Police Force, which comprises 90 per cent. be the responsibility of the Consumer Affairs good fellows, should be put into this position. Council, and I back him up. I cannot see ! went to school with some of them and why the police should have so much to do taught others. They are good members of with false advertising. This part of the Bill the force. I meet them in the streets and has many good aspects to it. talk to them, and I know that they are not Many of us have run into this problem. happy. I do not want to be misjudged by Salesmen have come to my place and said. the Minister who may think that I am "Here is a stack of encyclopaedias. This infiltrating the Police Force, sowing dissen­ is a big sales promotion. We are choosing sion. I have an obligation to listen .to what a few people like teachers and educated they say. I do not aid and abet them, but I people. We want you to look at these books. listen and try to judge for myself. I do not There is no obligation and there are no like. what I see forming in the minds of some strings. You can keep them as long as you members of the Police Force. The main like." I have said, "Well, how long is thing is that the Police Force works and 'as long as you like'?" They have said, Jives and has its moral fibre on the assump­ "Oh, well, we don't want them back ag~in. tion that the laws it is executing are good This is all taken up in the sales promotion. Jaws made for the real benefit of the majority. as long as you will write a testimonial." This is false, and everybody here knows it. The Minister said that if people are Jaw If this provision is to be used against fellows abiding they have nothing to fear. But who like that, it is a good law. But why bring judges it? Somebody else judges it outside the police in on it? As long as I know the court. As the hon. member for South of this law, I can get on the telephone and Brisbane said, this provision has put our ring somebody. It may not necessarily be law back to front. Take demonstrators out the police; it may perhaps be the Consumer of a building by every lawful means, if they Affairs Bureau-that is, if they ever get out have no real right to be there, and try of bed. them according to British law. But do not do this to them. Otherwise something will Mr. Hoglres: What a nasty assertion! ferment, and a whirlwind will grow into Mr. BALDWIN: Well, if they ever get a tornado, and society will be fragmented out of their office. more than it has been already. Mr. Hoghes: You know, from a reply I have pointed out these things in the given to one of your members, of the amount House before, and Government members of work they have done in a short time. You have said, "You are criticising the Bill, but should be supporting their work instead of what have you to put in its place?'' I have attacking them. nothing immediate to put in its place, because there is no immediate action that can be Mr. BALDWIN: I am afraid they cannot taken that will cure an ill that has taken be a success, because that law is pointless. 40 years to reach its present stage. It has milk-and-water legislation. Whether I am happened particularly in the past 13 or right or wrong on that point does not detract 14 years. The Government will have to from my criticism of this legislation. I level backtrack. It has to re-educate in some way at it the same criticism that I have levelled at or other. It has even to re-educate the other legislation: it is ostensibly good, but members of its own force. it is designed to gull the people into thinking 3482 Vagrants, Gaming, and Other [1 APRIL] Offences Act Amendment Bill

that everything in the garden is rosy, and that Mr. Lee: They can't reserve land for that. they have protective legislation that will be implemented by somebody, mainly the poor Mr. BALDWIN: This is being done under old police. Government resumption. I am not saying There are a couple of gaps in the legisla­ that the Government is doing it deliberately, tion that I find it hard to jump across. The but it is being duped by these powerful hon. member for Mackay also asked in companies in the same way as the poor effect, "What constitutes publishing?" He people are being duped. But these com­ mentioned the posting of material. What panies do not dupe hon. members on this about taking a leaflet round? What would be side of the House who have been through the position if I prepared a leaflet offering the mill and can see all this unfairness being people some consideration for an action on practised. their part, and took that leaflet from door to Mr. Miller: Do you say the Government door? Would that come within the limit of is resuming the land for land developers? the law? What if I took round a leaflet reading, "The Labour Party will restore the Mr. BALDWIN: Virtually so. They are value of the working man's pay packet" and resuming it for a school, but-- some person rang the police and said to Mr. Miller: They are resuming land for them, "Here's a fellow who is misrepresenting the Government, not for land developers. something. He's offering me something for nothing."? Mr. BALDWIN: It is being done, because Mr. Lee: He would be right, too. houses are being erected there. I am not talking about the rights or wrongs of the Mr. BALDWIN: That is the attitude, and resumption; I am talking about the rights the police would be there very quickly to and wrongs of the advertisement. Evidently pick me up. But what about the door-to-door the hon. member for Ithaca missed the salesmen who are really doing the cheating point. I hope he is clear on it now. with the small print? How does this provision cover them? What prosecution can be taken against the printer or publisher of such signs? Is he The legislation refers to material being to be let off on the first occasion if it is sent through the post. What if I decided to something that can be pinned on him? What send through the post 100,000 letters reading about the advertising signs? What about in effect, "Put a stamp on this and then we the leaflet I spoke about? What about the will send you a brochure."? That is no longer letter and the circular I referred to? All gratuitous, but it still gets into people's living these things are tricks and quips to rob the rooms. Is it intended that the legislation will working man of this State of the "dough" cover that situation? That sort of thing is in his pay packet and put him in thrall to a being done today. These are questions to system run by a Government that intro­ which I want answers. duces a law such as this, which is only Now how about land sales? One of the going to sow a tornado through the State. greatest areas for the operation of snide I say to the Government, "Start back at dealers, sharks, and squeezers of home­ the beginning, if you have the intestinal hungry people is house and land-selling. On fortitude to do so, and cut out the double the outskirts of the city, and along roads such jobbing. Put value into the worker's money as the Pacific Highway, one sees maps show­ so he will not be so eager to fall for the ing allotments for sale with areas marked tricks and quips that are here." "School". A person buys a block of land near where the school is supposed to be, only to Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr. Hooper): find that not only is there no school there but Order! I appeal to hon. members on both no land has been set aside for it. I am sides of the Chamber to keep their voices having this type of trouble in my electorate down. There is far too much audible now. People retained their land; they would conversation. not sell to land sharks at their price. They held out, because they wanted the land for Mr. BALDWIN: Look at the education their own use, present or future. Now, system; look at all the newspaper advertise­ because they held out, they are going to have ments; look at all the television advertise­ their land resumed to pay for the false adver­ ments; look at all the sex shows (I counted tising of big landholders such as Intercapital 27 out of 30 recently on one page of the Realty. This is the sort of thing that is being newspaper). Do these shows give the people done now. Is the Government going to take what they want? They go along to be enter­ action against them? If so, I am right behind tained and for intellectual stimulation and all the Government, and I hope all those who they get is masturbation. Is the Government are doing this sort of thing are goaled. But going to bring in laws against that type of the Government will also have to gaol Mobil advertising? It is false advertising. Oil, Texaco and all the other American firms We already have all these fragmentary that are financing this development. We forces, and the Government is now adding know where the money is coming from for another one to them. It should start the establishment of satellite cities to assure tackling the real problem. It should begin the consumption of petrol for the next 50 giving the workers, salary earners and small years-leaving the people to clear up the business men of this State a chance. It horrible mess. should educate them, take them out of this Vagrants, Gaming, and Other [1 APRIL] Offences Act Amendment Bill 3483

vortex of fragmentation that they are in, All I can say in reply to the hon. member and give them good night classes. It should for Rockhampton South is that he should first, of course, free them from having read my introductory speech, which fully to work at night, give them shorter hours, explains most of the points he raised. and put good homes within their reach. It One speaker referred to gaps in the amend­ should cut out all the inefficiency of adver­ ing legislation. I will admit that the Bill will tising costs against which it is bringing not provide everything that is required to down this law. The consumer pays for prevent false, deceptive or misleading adver­ the advertising. I do not think that the tising. As recently as this morning we came legislation will cure anything. across another section of the legislation that will have to be amended to plug up a hole Hon. A. M. HODGES (Gympie-Minister that some snide operators are taking advan­ for Works and Housing) (9.53 p.m.), in tage of. reply: I am at a loss to reply to many of I am happy to have had the support of the the innocuous contributions to this debate. hon. member for South Brisbane. He agreed I am indebted to the hon. member for South with what is proposed except, of course, the Brisbane for providing the complete answer onus-of-proof provision. He has been very as to why the legislation has been intro­ vehement in his submissions on every duced. His explanation has assisted me occasion when this principle has arisen in tremendously, but I should like him to take legislation. All I can do on this occasion is some of his colleagues aside and explain refer him to the speech I made at the start to them again what the legislation means. of the second-reading debate. He was not If he had done that earlier, we probably here when I made it. After he has read it, should not have heard the emotional out­ I think he will realise where it came from bursts that we heard from a number of and he may change his opinion a little. hon. members. I reserve further comment until the Com­ I shall defer most of my comments till mittee stage. the Committee stage, because hon. members Motion (Mr. Hodges) agreed to. opposite have indicated that they will divide the Committee on one clause and I think COMMITTEE that the discussion will be freer in Committee. (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. Hooper, Greenslopes, in the chair) One or two hon. members opposite spoke in rather emotional terms. I am amazed to Clause 1, as read, agreed to. think that they would condone lawlessness in Clause 2-New s. 4A; Entering or remain­ this State. It seemed that pleas were being ing in or upon buildings, etc., without lawful made all evening for the minority who break excuse- the law. As I said earlier, no law-abiding citizen has anything whatever to fear from Mr. NEWTON (Belmont) (10 p.m.): I this legislation. The hon. member for South indicated to the Minister earlier that we Brisbane fully supported it. He did not want intended to oppose this clause. We would to be impeded by a mob of "yahoos" from have expected the Minister in his reply at going about his business. He did not want to the second reading to spend some time on be impeded by "mugs" cluttering up his door­ the point raised by hon. members on this side. way. He wanted free movement and free We are completely united on this matter. As access. He did not want his liberties inter­ a layman I touched on it, and the hon. mem­ ferred with in any manner whatever. That ber for South Brisbane spoke on it as a legal is all that the legislation does. It gives the person. Our objection lies in the fact that police power to act so that the hon. member the onus of proof is placed upon the and every other law-abiding citizen in the individual. State can go about their business in the free and orderly manner they desire. Mr. Hodges: I said I would refrain from commenting on it until the Committee stage. One moment the hon. member for Norman Mr. NEWTON: It is to be hoped that the was screaming his head off and saying that Minister deals with it. Until now we have this was a police State; in the next breath not heard anything about it. On this matter he was complaining that we have not enough there is no division in the Opposition. We police in this State. I do not know what he means. Then he went on to say that the feel that Queensland is continually regressing whole legislation was badly worded. On the in these matters. Every time legislation is other hand, his colleague, the hon. member introduced here, the individual is required to for South Brisbane, a practising barrister, convict himself before being brought to court. agreed with the wording and said that the No matter how one reads the provisions of Bill could not be worded in any other this Bill they take away the rights of the manner. I do not know whether the hon. individual. member for Norman thinks he knows more During the second reading, certain assur­ about the matter than the hon. member for ances were given by the Minister that the South Brisbane. I ask the hon. member for police are directed to use patience and toler­ South Brisbane to take his colleague aside ance in implementing these laws, but we and explain to him what the whole thing cannot trust this Government in this respect. means. The number of Ministers and acting Ministers 3484 Vagrants, Gaming, and Other (1 APRIL] Offences Act Amendment Bill

who have been placed in charge of this port­ person who may be committing an offence folio is amazing, and every one of them has under the particular Act. It is fair to both had a different policy. The latest rumour is the police officer and the person approached that we may be losing the present Minister, by the police officer that that person be and that the next person to take over the warned that he may be committing an portfolio will be the Minister for Labour and offence, in this instance, under the Vagrants. Tourism. God help us if that man is ever Gaming and Other Offences Act. put in charge of the Police Force! We have seen enough of him in the Labour and Mr. Hodges: If you found a man in your Tourism portfolio. home, would you warn him and then let Mr. Hodg~s: I don't know anything about him go? that. Mr. P. WOOD: Let me explain my point. Mr. NEWTON: It is strongly rumoured; it I think the Minister will agree that my point is the latest information received on this side. is a valid one. It is possible that in the We also indicated earlier that the fact that situation envisaged in the Bill, innocent no warrant is required under this Bill makes bystanders might become mixed up in it one of the most vicious pieces of legislation demonstrations. Demonstrators might enter ever introduced into this Parliament. As a a university building and create a disturb­ matter of fact, if a person was sera tching ance, and in that same building there might himself and did not keep moving he could be a large number of people who have every find himself in trouble. Under this Bill, very right to be there and are not involved in an) few rights are left to the individual, and the way with the demonstrators. It is quite a Opposition is very concerned about this simple matter for them to be moving about clause. Under the powers the Minister is the building in a perfectly legal manner and seeking on this occasion, virtually any move a person made could be construed as a breach to become involved with a group of of the law. demonstrators who may suddenly rush down a corridor or enter a certain room. The hon. member for Logan referred to education and asked the Minister, "Why The police may be taking action to control don't you endeavour to do something about demonstrators. If there is a melee in a going to this minority who are causing you corridor, how are they to judge which people so many problems, or send your Commis­ are demonstrating and which people actually sioner to the university?" have a right to be in the building? A student making inquiries legitimately in the admini­ Mr. Hodges: We have been out there. stration building could be caught up in the Mr. NEWTON: Why not try those general melee of a demonstration. Under this approaches first, instead of introducing this legislation, he can be apprehended and taken vicious legislation? The Minister has told us away. After the fuss subsides, how could that he is having problems in keeping the the police decide whether or not the student Police Force up to strength; yet the Govern­ was involved innocently in the demonstra­ ment introduces Bill after Bill to place added tion? Frankly, I do not think they would have burdens on the shoulders of police officers. a chance. Under this legislation an innocent l will not be surprised if Queensland follows student who became involved in a demon­ the example set in New South Wales of stration would have a hopeless job to prove closing down police stations and establishing himself innocent. picket-boxes throughout the State at points Demonstrations have occurred in public where problems can be expected to arise at buildings and in certain embassies in this city. certain times. Perhaps that is a better pro­ Innocent people engaged in lawful business posal than any contained in the Bill. have a right to be in buildings. If they were The Opposition's main objection to this working there, they would have a good clause is based on the fact that the onus of chance of proving that they were there proof is placed on the individual. That is lawfully. wrong in principle. No person should be required to prove his innocence. lf a police Mr. Miller: Are you saying that the police officer believes that a breach of the law has would not be able to recognise a demon­ been committed, he has certain powers to strator from a person going normally about do something about it. He lays a charge, and his business? the person who is charged has the right either to appear in court or have his lawyer Mr. P. WOOD: That is exactly what I am appear for him. We oppose this clause. saying. Mr. P. WOOD (Toowoomba East) (lO.X Mr. Miller: That is a ridiculous statement. p.m.): I do not pretend to be a lawyer, but Mr. P. WOOD: The hon. member was not I wish to pose some questions in the hope of listening to the examples I cited. If a group having them cleared up. The clause does not of students invaded the administration require a police officer to issue a warning building while other students were walking to a person who seems to be committing an peacefully down the corridor-- offence. I understand that under sections of the Traffic Act and other Acts, a police Mr. Miller: Walking peacefully down the officer is obliged to issue a warning to a corridor? Vagrants, Gaming, and Other [1 APRIL] Offences Act Amendment Bill 3485

Mr. P. WOOD: I might be a student Mr. P. WOOD: I think there is a grave walking down the corridor, and I could deficiency in this clause, as I have outlined. become innocently involved in the rush. The A gross injustice can be done to people who hon. member cannot tell me that could not have innocently, unwittingly, and certainly happen. unwillingly, become caught up in a demon­ I understand that if people gather in a stration. And they have absolutely no public place, such as a street, they can be chance of proving their innocence later on. dealt with under the Traffic Act. But what happens in the case of a demonstration in an Mr. BROMLEY (Norman) (10.16 p.m.): arcade in the city area? There have been I support the hon. member for Belmont disturbances and demonstrations in an arcade in opposing clause 2. In passing, I point in the city. Apparently there was no legisla­ out to the Minister, who felt that he was tion to cope with the situation as the Traffic obliged, to use the vernacular, to "have a Act was not applicable to arcades, but this go" at me in my absence for referring, in legislation would cover it. If people in a the second-reading stage, to a police State demonstration ran through an arcade, I could and a shortage of police, that there is a become involved in a melee, and be right in big difference between what is known as the middle of it, although I was simply a police State and a shortage of police. walking through the arcade. A police State is one in which a certain Mr. Davis: If you had long hair, you amount of spying is done by police or would be doubly sure to be "knocked off". informers, in which police stand over people, in which people who are currying a favour Mr. P. WOOD: I do not have long hair, with the police inform on others, and in but a young fellow with long hair could which police arrest innocent people. Perhaps quite innocently be in an arcade and become I could class Russia as a police State. involved in a disturbance. Quite frankly, Mr. Miller: What does Mr. Gallagher how would the police know whether he was in the disturbance innocently? He might even think about the police? be rushing to get out of the place. I empha­ Mr. BROMLEY: Mr. Gallagher or Mr. sise that I am not now being critical of the Callaghan? police. Mr. O'Donnell: You might be protecting Mr. Miller: Mr. Gallagher. yourself. Mr. BROMLEY: The hon. member is Mr. P. WOOD: I might be trying to get probably thinking of Peter Gallagher, who out and suddenly be collared by a policeman. plays Rugby League. Except for the times Under this legislation, he would not give the hon. member has been arrested, that is me any warning. I could not say to him, about all he would know about the Police "I am trying to get out of the place. I am Force. not involved in the demonstration." He In answer to a question, the Minister would grab hold of me without issuing a admitted that there was a shortage of police. warning, and I would be dragged off to the Therefore the two versions are incompatible watch-house. and the Minister should know this. I hope Mr. Hodges: Under which Act can you he stands corrected. get a warning? Through you, Mr. Ramsden, I ask the Mr. P. WOOD: I think a warning is given Minister if he intends to withdraw the under the Traffic Act, and also under the words, "the proof of which shall be upon legislation governing firearms. Under this him" and the words, "proof of such lawful Act, a policeman is not obliged to say to me, excuse being upon him". If the Minister "I warn you that by being in this place you believes in British justice, he will. If not, are obstructing traffic and are obliged to it is time we had a Bill of Rights to ensure move on." Therefore, I could not say, "That that every individual has protection from a is exactly what I am trying to do. I am standover Government, because evidently trying to get out of this place." I am this is the type of proposal that we will "lumbered", and off I go. have to contend with in the years ahead. I believe that innocent people who are Mr. Wright: Are you aware that notice caught up in demonstrations should be given has been sent to all police officers informing some protection. No protection is given to them that they must answer every question them in this clause. They could be caught put to them by a senior officer, regardless up and, because of the reversal of the onus of the fact that their answers might of proof, I do not think they would have incriminate them? a hope of proving their innocence later on. Mr. BROMLEY: That was a good speech Mr. Chincben: It is not an offence to be from the hon. member who interjected. In in a mob. reply, I am not aware of it, but it certai~ly Mr. P. WOOD: The hon. member should seems to be a serious situation when police try to prove that he was innocently in a officers are required to do this or take the mob. consequences. Mr. CWnchen: You have to take some Mr. Wright: How can we accept the action. Minister's assurance? 112 3486 Vagrants, Gaming, and Other [1 APRIL] Offences Act Amendment Bill

Mr. BROMLEY: I do not know that we or dangerous driving causing death, his can. I am putting this question to the licence is merely suspended, not cancelled. Minister on behalf of the people of All members know the considerable difference Queensland. If the Minister will not indi­ between cancellation and suspension of cate that he will withdraw the two portions licences. When a person's licence is cancelled, of the Bill to which I referred, all I can he has to submit to another driving test and say is that it is time we had a Bill of Rights display "P" plates on his vehicle for 12 in Queensland. months. Mr. BENNETT (South Brisbane) (10.20 The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! p.m.): I have listened attentively and with interest to what has been said about this I ask the hon. member to return to the clause, and I do not propose to repeat clause under discussion. what I have already said about the principle Mr. BENNETT: In relation to the other that it contains. Apropos of the discussion on departmental instructions that are matter on which you allowed discussion unlawful, it is true that such instructions are during the contribution of the hon. member circulated. One of the latest horrifying ones for Norman, Mr. Ramsden, I might say is a departmental memorandum instructing that if there is a departmental instruction the District Superintendent of Traffic to to that effect, it is in complete conflict with cancel, without equivocation and without the rule 77 of the rules under the Police Act, exercise of any discretion, the licence of and I advise police officers to rely on the any driver called upon to show cause for laws passed by Parliament rather than suffer the second time under the points system. I embarrassment by following departmental have seen that memorandum; it was shown instructions. to me in my professional capacity by the then District Superintendent of Traffic. I should now like to deal with the real kernel of this matter, apart from the reversal It is startling and disquietening that such of the onus of proof. I refer to the meaning a memorandum, which is in conflict with of the words "without lawful excuse". I the law and disregards the discretion con­ think it is important that hon. members tained in the show-cause principle in the should understand what that expression Traffic Act, should be circulated. Drivers, means, because it has been judicially defined. particularly those who drive for a living, Unfortunately, section 4 (1) (viii) (a) says, pay high fees to have counsel appear on in effect, that if a person "Without lawful their behalf in show-cause actions. They are excuse (the proof of which shall be upon not told beforehand that the District him)- . . . is found in any dwelling-house, Superintendent of Traffic has been instructed warehouse ...", etc., he is committing an not to exercise his discretion. When I was offence. The underlying phrase is "without told, not confidentially but professionally, lawful excuse", which, as I said earlier, has that such an instruction had been given, been judicially defined. When we are writing I would not believe it. The District Superin­ that term into a new section, it is as tendent of Traffic then showed me the well that we should understand what the original memorandum, and I was horrified. words mean. What that instruction means is that anyone called upon for the second time to show There appears to be a sharp conflict of cause under the points system is merely judicial opinion concerning the true construc­ wasting time attending to show cause, tion of the expression "without lawful because the District Superintendent of Traffic excuse", so I shall refer briefly to four cases has no discretion in the matter and must in which it has been considered and defined cancel the licence. That is a serious by the courts. I think all hon. members will matter. I was staggered when I saw that memorandum. agree that it is difficult to reconcile tbe different meanings given to the expression. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. Therefore, when the onus of proof is on the Ramsden): Order! I hope the hon. member defendant, the burden becomes even greater wili return to the clause and not continue because the courts Clli"'lnot agree on the to discuss the Traffic Act. meaning of the expression. Mr. BENNETT: I am discussing depart­ As far back as the 1920's, in the case of mental instructions that may be circulated Carter v. Reaper, which is •reported in the mtder this section, too, concerning the Victorian Law Reports (it was a Victorian arresting of people who are found on case), the defendant, a married woman, premises without lawful excuse. There could entered the dwelling-house of the informant­ well be another departmental instruction to that is, the complainant-with three detec­ the effect that all persons found on such tives for the purpose of ascertaining whether premises are to be arrested if they cannot her husband, who lodged there, was, as she prove that they are there for a lawful suspected, committing adultery with the purpose. That is the important point that informant's wife. Mr. Justice Hood, who I am trying to make. Under a departmental set aside the conviction made by the magis­ instruction, licences are automatically being trate, held that she was not upon the cancelled. If a person is convicted of man­ premises without lawful excuse within tbe slaughter arising from the use of a motor-car, meaning of the section. In the coursa of his Vagrants, Gaming, and Other [1 APRIL] Offences Act Amendment Bill 3487 judgment, His Honour said, at page 340 of but simply by the absence of any wrong the Victorian Law Reports and page 209 of intention. His excuse is lawful because it the Australian Law Reports- is honest." There was another South Australian case in "The bench (at Petty Sessions)"- 1940, Wilkins v. Condell. It was also a m that case it would be a magistrate­ matrimonial case. Up until the sit-ins most of the trespasses without lawful excuse were "may have been of opinion that 'lawful in relation to a spouse committing adultery. excuse' means a legal right to be on the In this case the defendant, who was living premises. That cannot be right, and was apart from his wife, and in adultery, had been not pressed before this court. A man on duly evicted by legal process from the house premises, with the legal right to be there, of his father-in-law who made the complaint can hardly be described as being 'found' about him. It was there that his wife and there, and he certainly would not need an children were residing. Notwithstanding that 'excuse,' and, if excuse is confined to this, eviction he went to the house in question, every man trespassing in a house would be entered without knocking and succeeded in a rogue and a vagabond, which is certainly frustrating the complainant's attempt .to put not law. It was urged however that the him out. In reply to a charge of having been decision can be supported in another found in a dwelling-house without lawful reading of the words 'lawful excuse'. It excuse, he gave evidence that he went to the was contended that these words are con­ house to see his wife about a bicycle which fined to cases either of legal right or of an he had promised to give to their eldest child. honest belief in the existence of such a The magistrate who heard the case said that right. Neither of these instances would he was not able to entirely reject the defend­ be within the section, simply because ant's evidence as to that purpose. This is neither would be criminal. But why should where the onus of proof comes in. He said the words 'lawful excuse' be confined to that he could not reject that evidence entirely these? Honest belief in the existence of a -that it might be true-although he thought right is no legal justification for trespass it more probable that he went to the woman's . . . and to include this belief under the house to make a nuisance of himself in some words 'lawful excuse' shows that a fairly way or other. He convicted him although he wide meaning must be given to them. If thought his explanation might be true. this is all that is to be included, curious results would follow. A drunken man That is the danger in placing the onus of found in his neighbour's house, under the proof on the defendant. Even though he gives belief that it was his own, would be an explanation that the court believes might excused, while a man who, through his be true, he can still be convicted because the own negligence, fell through a window, or onus of proof has shifted from the Crown to entered a house to ask his way, or who the accused. Relying on the other case that crossed an enclosed yard in order to make I referred to-Carter v. Reaper-his counsel a shmt cut or to find some lost article, argued that it would be an answer to the would necessarily be declared a rogue and charge if the defendant proved that he was in vagabond. It is to be noticed, in addition, the place where he was found without any that the magistrates did not find that the criminal intent. It was no less than the Chief defendant had no honest belief in her Justice who sat on the appeal, and the Chief right to be in the house;"- Justice summarily rejected the contention. He said- that is, the woman going to see her adulterous "It appears to me that the argument husband- overlooks the language of the Act. What "while a wife, under the belief that her has to be proved is that the defendant was husband was committing adultery, may in the place where he was found without well have held such an opinion, and a any lawful excuse, whereas to show merely finding of negligence, or breaking open of that he was not there for any criminal doors, or flashing of torches, is not incon­ purpose affords no explanation of why he sistent with such a belief. But, in my was there, which is the thing to be opinion, the words 'lawful excuse' cannot accounted for." be limited in the way suggested. The In reply to a second contention that it was instances I have given show that a person unlikely that the legislature intended to make may be found in another's house without an ordinary trespass a criminal offence, the any right, or honest belief in the existence Chief Justice said- of such a right, while it would be shocking "My answer to that is that the intention to hold that such person should be deemed of the legislature depends on the language to be a rogue and vagabond. Looking at it has used, and it is very clear from the the legislation I think the meaning to be wording of the section, placitum, that perfectly clear. It is a criminal section, Parliament intended that a person who is and in this sub-section the burden of proof found in one or other of certain specified is placed upon any person found on the places without lawful excuse shall be liable premises; that person must show that his to imprisonment for any period not exceed­ presence was not for any criminal purpose. ing six months or, in other words, shall be If he does that, his trespass is excused, not guilty of a crime, although at common law because he had any right or any belief in he would only be liable for damages for a any right, though that would be sufficient, trespass." 3488 Vagrants, Gaming, and Other [1 APRIL] Offences Act Amendment Bill

Another judge of the Court, Mr. Justice South Brisbane to withdraw and apologise. Angus Parsons, said- If he does not, I will knock him down on his "It seems clear that the legislature could bloody ear. not have intended to make every civil Opposition Members interjected. trespasser found in a dwelling etc. guilty of an offence against the subsection. All the The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: I am legislature did intend by the addition of sorry; I was busy with the Clerk and I did those cryptic words is admittedly difficult not hear what was said. to determine." Mr. BENNETT: "Hansard" will have it After referring to all those authorities and in. considering the analogies that have been Mr. Houston: How could you miss it? drawn, does it not seem rather unfair that the onus of proof is to be cast upon the The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! defendant in these matters because the law I trust that the Leader of the Opposition is itself has not agreed on the real and strict not reflecting on the Chair. I ask him to meaning of the term "without lawful excuse"? withdraw that remark and apologise to the As I mentioned earlier, it is much easier Chair. for the Crown, with its resources, to prove Mr. Houston: I withdraw and apologise. its case. Knowing that the proof is proof beyond a reasonable doubt, it is much fairer Mr. P. Wood: I trust you didn't miss that. that the Crown should have the onus of The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! proof than that it should be put on the The hon. member for Toowoomba East will accused. Even if he does put up his argu­ withdraw and apologise. ment in relation to lawful excuse-in other words, if he does satisfy a magistrate that Mr. P. Wood: I do so. he was on the premises with lawful excuse­ Mr. BENNETT: I will not withdraw under then the Crown, with all its resources, can threat. Surely parliamentary democracy is take him, first of all on appeal to the not going to force me, under the severe Full Court-at considerable expense-in threat the hon. member has just made, to order to define whether or not the circum­ withdraw. Under force, I will not withdraw stances which he set out come within the in any circumstances. confines of the meaning of the phraseology "without lawful excuse" and then, if the The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! Crown is particularly hostile on the defend­ I ask the hon. member for South Coast ant, or the appellant as he then becomes, to repeat his request in parliamentary it can run him up to the High Court, as it language. did with the actor in the play last year who used the famous four-letter word liber­ Mr. IDNZE: I understand that the hon. ally sprinkled around by the hon. member member for South Brisbane said that I used for South Coast and others on the Govern­ a four-letter word or a seven-letter word ment benches last Tuesday night. in this House. This is entirely incorrect and I ask him to withdraw. This actor used the four-letter word in the course of the play and because he was unsuc­ The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! cessful in certain litigation, he eventually had Will the hon. member for South Brisbane to spend a fortune (or somebody else did withdraw the statement? on his behalf) in order to clear his name Mr. BENNETT: At your direction, Mr. and to satisfy the courts that it was not Ramsden, I withdraw, but "Hansard" will obscene within the meaning of the relevant show that I rose to a point of order on legislation. He was arrested in public at Tuesday night in reference to it. the theatre where he was performing for using the four-letter word which, as I say, The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! was hopelessly bandied around in public by I do not want any discussion with the Chair. Government members last Tuesday night. I ask the hon. member to withdraw. He had to go to the High Court. When the onus of proof is on the defendant as it Mr. BENNETT: I still say he said it to is here-- the hon. member for Ithaca. Mr. HINZE: I rise to a point of order. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! I understand that the hon. member for South The hon. member will withdraw and then Brisbane said that I used a four-letter word proceed with his speech. in this House. Mr. BENNETT: I withdraw, but "Han­ Mr. Bromley: He meant that you used a sard" will show what happened on Tuesday seven-letter word. night. I was considerably distressed by what occurred. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. Ramsden): Order! Mr. IDNZE: I rise to a further point of order. "Hansard" does not record that I Mr. IDNZE: It is entirely incorrect. I said anything. All I am asking is that the did not use a seven-letter word or a four­ hon. member for South Brisbane withdraw letter word, and I ask the hon. member for his statement. Vagrants, Gaming, and Other [1 APRIL} Offences Act Amendment Bill 3489

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! suggest that the penalty should be a flat rate The hon. member for South Brisbane has of $200 or imprisonment for six months about half a minute left. simply for using "any language". Mr. BENNETT: Without citing the name Hon. A. M. HODGES (Gympie-Minister of the case, I refer to the words of one of for Works and Housing) (10.45 p.m.): As I the judges, who said- said at the second-reading stage, all I can "It appears to me that the legislature, in do in regard to the onus-of-proof provision is declaring that certain acts of trespass may repeat what I said in my introductory speech. be punishable by imprisonment, must have As the hon. member for South Brisbane said, intended that some such test as that applied this provision is used quite frequently under to negligence should be used in determin­ the Vagrants, Gaming, and Other Offences ing whether the trespass was or was not of Act. While it would seem from a casual a criminal character." observation that it is necessary for a person charged under the legislation to prove his (Time expired.) innocence, that is not so. It has been held Mr. BROMLEY (Norman) (10.41 p.m.): I that the responsibility of establishing the draw the Committee's attention to the guilt of a person rests upon the complainant. ludicrous provision in the proposed section Even when the charge involves proof that the 4A (2) (b), namely, "uses any language". In person charged had no lawful excuse, the the last few minutes we have heard argu­ burden of proof is in the sense of an ment about whether or not an hon. member obligation to produce evidence that he had used certain language in this Chamber the a lawful excuse. This only shifts onto the other night. I remind the Committee that person charged when the complainant, by this was the subject of a debate-- his evidence, has raised a substantial prob­ ability that the defendant had no lawful The TEMPORARY CHAffiMAN: Order! excuse. The Committee is not discussing the language Mr. Bennett: You get into a lot of legal used in the Chamber the other night, but argument and jargon, don't you? clause 2 of the Bill. I ask the hon. member to deal with the clause. Mr. HODGES: Yes, we do-and the hon. Mr. BROMLEY: I am leading up to the member would know very well where that fact that today a debate was conducted on came from. one of the radio stations on the matter of We have examined the cases cited by the whether or not certain language was used in hon. member, and we believe the onus of the Chamber. Whilst this Chamber is not a proof is placed on the person who takes the public place, I point out that the provision to initiative in entering private premises; he does which I have referred is a ludicrous one, in not have to remain on them. view of the fact that subsection (1) of the Mr. Bennett: They don't have to commit proposed section 4A provides for a penalty murder, either. of $200 or imprisonment for six months. I stress the point that the fine is not up to Mr. HODGES: No, they do not. $200, but $200. That penalty is imposed on This provision has been in the Act since any person who "uses any language" in a its inception. It has not caused as much public place. upset to the public as has been predicted by I agree with the hon. member for South one or two hon. members opposite. The Brisbane that a stage is a public place, and onus is still on the complainant to prove .that on the stage it is quite common to use the person is guilty. In those circumstances, obscene phrases. It is well known to every­ I have no intention of withdrawing the pro­ body, including the hon. member for South vision. Coast-who has now left the Chamber­ that the "great Australian adjective", which­ Mr. NEWTON (Belmont) (10.47 p.m.): We ever it might be, is used here, there and have been waiting for the Minister to make a everywhere. If a person is to be fined $200 declaration on these two provisions as .to or be imprisoned for six months for using whether he will delete them as the onus of "any language" the whole thing is ludicrous. proof is placed on the individual. Irrespective After all, as I have said, it is used in the live of what the Minister may say, we rely on theatre, which is attended by the Commis­ the expert opinion of the hon. member for sioner of Police and the Minister for Justice. South Brisbane and outside legal opinion that I give credit to the Minister in charge of we have sought. We have been assured that police for having gone along to private and the clause is designed specifically to place public sessions to hear the words so that he the onus of proof on the person who may could decide whether or not they should be be apprehended by a police officer under these censored. Yet the Bill contains the ludicrous provisions. provision to which I have referred. I cer­ Irrespective of what may have been in the tainly agree with the hon. member for South Act since its inception, we know the reper­ Brisbane, who so graciously withdrew his cussions from the use to which it has been remarks, that certain language was used in put by this Government, particularly in this Chamber the other night when the Gov­ declared states of emergency. We therefore ernment was defeated on the Electoral Dis­ do not see any reason to approve of these tricts Bill. It is absolutely ludicrous to provisions in the year 1971. 3490 Vagrants, Gaming, &c., Bill [1 APRIL] Architects Act, &c., Bill

Mr. WRIGHT (Rockhampton South) (10.48 from my speaking very briefly, that I have p.m.): I wish to take this opportunity of been in any way intimidated by what has saying that I have been informed by the hon. been said earlier, because I do not think member for South Coast that my comments that the hon. member for South Coast could during the second-reading stage about his go even two rounds with a revolving door. having had trouble with the police were Clause 3, as read, agreed to. incorrect. He has assured me that he has never had any trouble with the police. If Clause 4, as read, agreed to. the onus of proof rested on him it would be Bill reported, without amendment. very difficult for him to substantiate his denial, but I accept his statement and apolo­ ARCHITECTS ACT AMENDMENT BILL gise to him personally. SECOND READING Question-That clause 2, as read, stand part of the Bill-put; and the Committee Hon. A. M. HODGES (Gympie- divided- Minister for Works and Housing) (10.58 AYEs, 39 p.m.): I move- Ahem Liekiss Arrnstrong Low "That the Bill be now read a second Bird McKechnic time." Bjelke-Peterscn Miller Campbell Moore, R. E. In opening the debate on the second reading Chinchen Milller of this Bill, I should like to say that it Cory Murray is important that in considering the proposed Delarnothe Newbery Fletcher Porter amendments we keep our thinking clear as Heatley Rae to the intentions of the principal Act. Herbert Ramsden Hewitt, N. T. E. Row As I pointed out in my introductory Hewitt, W. D. Sullivan speech, it is an Act for the regis-tration as Hinze Tornkins Hodges Tooth architects of those persons who satisfy cer­ Houghton Wharton tain prescribed qualifications. Unlike other Hungerford Acts relating to the practice of their pro­ Jones, V. E. Tellers: Kaus fession or trades by doctors, dentists, accoun­ Knox Crawford tants, valuers, plumbers, electricians and Lee Hughes others, the Architects Act does not prevent NOES, 31 any person, because he is not an architect, Aiken Lloyd from designing and supervising the erection Baldwin Marginson Bennett Melloy of buildings or doing things that an architect Blake Moore, F. P. would normally do, but merely says that Bousen Newton any person who wishes to use the title Brornley O'Donnell Casey Sherrington "architect" or any other architectural title Davies Thackeray in conjunction with the practice of archi­ Dean Tucker tecture must first be registered as an architect. Hanlon Wallis-Srnith Hanson Wood, B. Unfortunately, at least from the profes­ Harris Wood,P. Houston sion's point of view, very few local authori­ Inch Tellers: ties require .that plans submitted for building Jensen projects within their areas be prepared by Jones, R. Davis Jordan Wright architects. At the present time, even the Brisbane City Council does not require a Resolved in the affirmative. building to be designed and authenticated Clause 3-New s. 37A; False, deceptive or by an architect or registered engineer except misleading advertisements- where it is of three or more storeys con­ struction, and one could probably count on 1\-tr. BENNETT (South Brisbane) (10.56 the fingers of one hand the number of local p.m.): I indicated during my speech on the authorities that employ on their staffs persons second reading of the Bill that this provision who have had architectural training. If one could not be referred to as a fundamental looks around Brisbane, or, for .that matter, principle of law. I do not, however, want other areas where building activity is going it to be thought that I was suggesting that on, one wiii see signboards advertising such­ it was not important or necessary. I think it and-such a new project as having been is imperative in view of the recent trend designed by a person or corporate body towards spurious advertising. I think that whose name does not appear on the Register what there is to be said in its favour has of Architects. So I say to the hon. member already been said by the shadow Minister for Mackay that many of the matters to and others. I also think the provisions which he referred or drew attention could are not only desirable but necessary. well be the work of individuals who do not As has been pointed out, it is strange possess the qualifications that would entitle that in some places certain expressions can them to registration. Not that architects be used without being regarded as obscene, themselves are above making mistakes, but whilst people become horrified if they are their architectural training would at least used in other places and under different make them aware of the necessity to exercise circumstances. I do not intend to speak care in the construction and choice of at length, or indeed at all, on this clause. materials in areas prone to cyclonic dis­ However, I do not want it to be thought, turbances or having other special features. Architects Act [1 APRIL] Amendment Bill 3491

The hon. member for Mackay also adjudged by the board, after due inquiry, to expressed concern about the one-third of the have been guilty of misconduct in a pro­ directors of architectural companies who will fessional respect. not be required to be architects and suggested The board has published a code of pro­ that the Bill should contain some stipulation fessional conduct which sets out the principles that an accountant would be the only type that should be observed by an architect in of person other than an architect permitted his professional work. Principle 1 of the on the board of directors. To legislate satis­ code states that an architect shall faithfully factorily for this is not as easy as it may carry out his duty to his client and shall not seem. Initially it was proposed that the do any act which shall have the effect of remaining one-third of the directors who avoiding his professional responsibility to his need not be architects should belong to an client. I should point out, however, that any allied profession, but the difficulty lies in complaint to the board with respect to the where to draw the line-whom would you services of an architect would not necessarily include, whom would you leave -out, and provide any redress to the person making the why? In the long run, it would appear to be complaint. of no great consequence so long as the company remains in the control of architects In answer to the hon. member's inquiry and has an architect as its principal executive concerning landscape architects, I should say officer. that, although their work may be allied to that of the architectural profession, the It is unlikely that a non-architect director training of these people often is very much having no other specialist qualifications distinct from that expected of persons would be appointed to any position of responsible for the design and supervision of responsibility within a company's organisa­ the erection of buildings. The Architects Act tion, because should one of these minority specifically grants exemption from its pro­ directors be guilty of any act of negligence visions to landscape architects, and should as an agent of the company, not only is the it be decided at any time to legislate for the director actually responsible liable to the full registration of landscape architects, I do not extent of his personal resources but the believe that the Architects Act would be the company also is liable to the full extent of appropriate statute. its own resources. The hon. member for Belmont mentioned I again emphasise that it is not the purpose the necessity for maintaining the high stand­ of the Bill to grant a licence to a company to ard of the qualifications required of persons practise architecture. It can do that now. wishing to register as architects in Queensland What the Bill sets out to do is to prescribe so that they may rightfully take their place certain conditions under which a company alongside members of the profession through­ may obtain the approval of the board to out Australia and, for that matter, overseas. use an architectural title and, in this respect, Of this we are very conscious, and I am sure to ensure that the public is adequately pro­ that the amendments now before the House tected. will ensure that our standards will remain in The hon. member referred also to general the forefront of those expected of the questions of arbitration and a code of profession. tendering, which he described as ethical con­ Since the introduction of the Bill, hon. duct but which in fact are matters of pro­ members have had the opportunity to study fessional procedure or practice, and as these its contents in more detail. I am satisfied that involve, among other things, the contractual these amendments will serve to maintain the relationship between the parties concerned, high level of qualifications and practice we they do not come within the ambit of the have come to expect of the architectural pro­ Act. fession in Queensland, for the benefit both of In regard to the use of the term "archi­ its members and of the general public, and tectural technician", the hon. member indi­ I commend the Bill to the House. cated that he was not sure what an archi­ tectural technician does. Since 1966 the Mr. NEWTON (Belmont) (11.6 p.m.): The Institute of Technology, Brisbane, has had Minister made it quite clear that we need to a technician's course which, in effect, pro­ be fully aware of the intention of the prin­ duces architectural draftsmen who to all cipal Act. We on this side are very pleased intents and purposes are sub-professional that the Minister said that, because the persons adequately trained to work under the original Act was introduced to cover the direction of an architect. position of architects in this State. As 1 indicated at the introductory stage, the con­ The hon. member for Salisbury raised the solidated Act of 1962 covered the position question of an architect's responsibilities. thoroughly. We hope it remains that way. Where a client engages an architect to pro­ Once we depart from the intention of an vide a service, a contract exists, and a dis­ original Act, or broaden its principles, we satisfied client would have the normal lessen its effectiveness in achieving what was recourse to legal action open to him if he felt that the architect had not properly ful­ originally intended. filled his conditions of engagement. In addi­ It is interesting to note that architects do tion, section 22 of the Architects Act pro­ not perform a great deal of work in the vides that the board may reprimand, sus­ preparation of plans and specifications for pend or deregister an architect who is submission to local authorities for approval. 3492 Architects Act [1 APRIL] Amendment Bill

That is easily understood. It would be a very be renewed each year. This could prove an costly business for someone who wanted to excellent safeguard, as any complaints that build his own house to employ an architect. are received by the Architects Board could be Partly because of the change in building investigated when the application was lodged materials, a builder or a person who has done for renewal of registration. a course in building and planning is capable The Bill also stipulates that each year a of drawing a plan that is acceptable to local list must be supplied by the board to the authorities throughout the State, including the Minister by a certain date so that the names Brisbane City Council. of registered companies under the Act will Mr. W. D. Hewitt: Plenty of people build appear in the Gazette. As well, the names their own homes. of those that are formed between the dates when the Minister is notified must also be Mr. NEWTON: That is true. Nevertheless, supplied. This is important. If the board the local authority does expect plans and is to deal with any complaint about struc­ specifications to be drawn up in a reasonable tural work carried out under an architect's manner by a responsible person. supervision, by tracking it down in the Gazette, it will be able to ascertain whether We expressed concern at the introductory it is dealing with someone who is properly stage about the board of directors. We were registered as an architect in this State. trying to ascertain the intention of the pro­ vision. Throughout the debate it was indi· The Bill provides that an offence is cated clearly that at no time would the committed if an approved architectural position fall below two-thirds of the board company does not notify the Registrar that being controlled by architects. Tonight it has any person ceases to be a director, executive been pointed out that possibly an accountant officer or member of the company. That and a secretary could be on the board. When safeguard is necessary. Time and time again we get down to the allied trades, where do companies have been formed with the we stop? There are many branches of the required number of directors and, before building industry from which personnel could very long, as a ,result of resig_nations they be drawn. They could be drawn from the have been reduced to partnerships, yet they allied trades to the professional architects. We are still registered as companies. should not like to see this possibility Another matter that needs clarifying is the enhanced, because it would be removing from right of appeal given to a company whose the Act a provision placed there in the past application for re-registration is refused by to ensure that it was intended specifically to the board. Such a company is given the cover architects. right to appeal to the Supreme Court, whose Quite an amount of attention is paid in decision is final and conclusive. Does that this legislation to people coming from the mean tha:t at no time in the future can South. The Bill clearly indicates what their the company again apply for registration? qua!i.fications must be and that when they I point out to the Minister that it is not desire to practise in this State their qualifica­ always the fault of all persons concerned tions shall be examined by the board. I with a company that it is de-registered, but merely mention this point because the hon. that of only one or two "bad eggs" in member for Mackay will be speaking on it. it. The other matter we wish to ,raise was An important provision in the Bill is mentioned by the Minister at the introductory that which forbids a director or other stage. It relates to the position of people member of a company having a personal who are desirous of becoming architects in interest in the company for financial gain. this State being examined by the board. It As to the surrender of a certificate of is set out in the Bill that examinations for approval, the Bill provides that a company admission shall be by the board, an institute, that fails to surrender such a certificate or other body approved by the board. Are is guilty of an offence. A certificate may we to take it that if we have not the facilities be re-issued by the board if, upon the in this State the reference to an institute or completion of certain proceedings, it does other body is to some institute or body in not withdraw its approval. this State, or must candidates go to some body in another State to be examined and The Opposition has not had as much time approved as architects? I should like the as it would like to examine the Bill, because Minister to explain this point more fully. It it was introduced as recently as last Friday. is of interest not only to members on this Nevertheless, we feel that it fully covers the side but also to people outside who are operations of archite.cts and gro~ps . of desirous of following this profession in architects. I should like some clanficatwn Queensland. They have a right to know on the few points I have raised. where they will be examined for approval Mr. CASEY (Mackay) (11.20 p.m.): I to practise as architects in this State. thank the Minister for replying to many of The Minister has indicated that the setting the points I raised. I have some further up of companies by architects is something comments to make this evening, but it is that could be done previously. The situation not my intention to enlarge on the matters is dealt with fully in the Bill. The important I have already discussed. I assure the point is that once a company has been regis­ Minister that the specifications I referred tered with the board, the registration must to were architectural specifications. I realise Architects Act [1 APRIL] Amendment Bill 3493

that there is a tremendous gap in standard manager. But most of the work that is between architects' specifications and those done in Queensland will be done by archi­ normally used by spec. builders and drafts­ tectural draftsmen and architectural tech­ men doing design work. Even some banks and nicians who are provided for by this Bill. building societies frequently use standard The Bill opens the gate to this. specifications for house construction that are Mr. Newton: Do you reckon there will be not drawn up by architects. take-overs? The architects have set the trends that have been followed by others in cyclone Mr. CASEY: Not so much take-overs of areas. In cyclone Ada overhanging awnings existing organisations, but take-overs of the and car-ports with large exposed roof areas work that is currently done in Queensland by protruding beyond outside walls suffered architects. A trend is developing in the con­ severely. Such architecturally designed struction industry for the designer and con­ buildings were not satisfactory in cyclone tractor to be one and the same person. For areas. instance, I could go down the street and find a sign which reads, "High Rise Plaza. Archi­ That leads me to the need for architec­ tects-Smith, Jones, Brown and Company tural corporations and all people associated Pty. Ltd. Builders-High Rise Constructions with building construction to operate under Pty. Ltd." If I dug right into it, I would a standard building code. In Australia we find, most likely, that the three are somehow have the Australian Standards Association, tied together. Wealthy architects and cor­ which is a fine organisation. I believe that porations in the South design these buildings th~ Government strongly supports it, and m the names of their subsidiary companies abtdes by its recommendations in civil­ and, in many cases, have their own construc­ engineering specifications. The department tion companies to do the work. normally conforms to the association's stan­ dards in architectural specifications. Every The Bill is not designed to cover the small Government in Australia should strongly architect and to allow him to set himself up support the formulation of a standard building as a corporation in this State. We will see code by the association, for use throughout more of this trend of large interstate and the nation by architects, civil engineers and overseas architectural companies entering this other building designers. This is an urgent field. Quite often, in construction and design need and, to this end, Governments should advertisements, we see the name of a firm assist financially and materially. whose sole responsibility is to design works and supervise several different subcontractors As I and other hon. members have said specialising in one part of the construction many people in the construction industry ar~ work. Some of these overseas companies inclined to be a little shoddy in their work, have no great asset backing. However, they and I am not referring specifically to builders. will possibly conform to the requirements of If a standard is established, it will be adhered this Bill. Architects will make up two-thirds to and will thus assist all in the community. of their directorate. They may be interstate Mr. Newton: There has always been a or overseas architects. building code in the Housing Commission As I stated before, they could have branch and the co-operative building societies. offices in this State run by managers who are Mr. CASEY: That may be true, but it architects, with perhaps architectural tech­ does not conform to the code of the Aus­ nicians or draftsmen doing the work. Many tralian Standards Association. This is the body major overseas and interstate building cor­ accepted and recognised throughout Aus­ porations have offices in our high-rise build­ tralia as setting standards in building work ings. They have State managers, and clerk­ and other industries. It sets standards for typists whose only duty is to answer the such things as steel structures and metal use telephone when their bosses are playing golf and almost every commodity used in th~ or doing something else. These managers community will eventually come within its keep their eye on any project in Queensland scope. and feed the information to their central offices, wherever they may be, where the Mr. Newton: The cyclonic areas present standard specifications are drawn up and any the only problem to the Australian standard. other work is done. These large interstate Mr. CASEY: The standard code could corporations are moving more and more into be varied to meet that situation. Queensland. Most of the principles embodied in the I think that the professional indemnity !3ill are virtually designed to allow the big insurance policy should be larger, particularly mterstate, wealthy architectural companies in view of the fact that the president of the to operate lawfully in Queensland. The Royal Australian Institute of Architects said Bill opens the way to this because it recog­ only last week in Sydney that some of his nises interstate qualifications. The Bill members had a poor standard of ethics. I specifically allows the appointment of a also believe that penalties applying to cor­ manager in this State who is an architect porations could be slightly higher. in an interstate corporation. This must be There will be very few Queensland cor­ watched, because a large interstate archi­ porations set up under the Bill, and, for that tectural corporation will set up a branch reason, I do not believe that it is a really office in Queensland, with an architect as the good Bill for Queensland. Most of the clauses 3494 Architects Act [1 APRIL] Amendment Bill of the Bill are acceptable to the Oppo~ition. CoMMITTEE At the ~ame time, I do not think that, in the (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. Hooper, long run, the Bill a~ designed will be in the best interests of Queenslanders. Greenslopes, in the chair) Clauses 1 to 4, both inclusive, as read, Hon. A. M. HODGES (Gympie-Minister agreed to. for Works and Housing) (11.31 p.m.), in reply: I thank hon. members for their accept­ Clause 5-Amendment of s. 18- ance of the Bill. There were one or two Mr. NEWTON (Belmont) (11.36 p.m.): This points raised by hon. members to which I feel I should reply. The intention of the clause contains the provisions about which amendment is to provide for recognition of the hon. member for Mackay spoke at some qualifications obtained in other States. It length earlier and about which both he and will enable persons from other States to come I have been concerned. Neither at the to Queensland and practise architecture here introductory stage nor at the second-reading provided the Queensland board is satisfied stage has the question been answered as to that the examinations that they have passed whether there is a shortage of architects are equivalent to those that have to be in this State. When other legislation similar passed by architects in Queensland. I assure to this has been introduced in this Chamber, the hon. member for Belmont that the pur­ the Opposition has endeavoured to ensme that pose is simply to recognise qualifications Queensland is not flooded with professional gained in other States, and maintain the people from other States. On this occasion standard that has been set in Queensland. we wish to ensure that there will be work for the architectural students now being Where the board does not grant registra­ trained in various institutes in Queensland. tion and an appeal to the Supreme Court fails, registration will not be granted till the All hon. members know that architects are requirements of the board are met. employed in a number of Government depart­ ments, and there is no doubt that the Govern­ The hon. member for Mackay referred to ment is training a certain number of archi­ a standard building code. That is not a tects. As has been indicated, interstate com­ matter for the Standards Association, but panies of architects are operating in Queens­ for local authorities. land. It is obvious, I think, that any architects Mr. Casey: That is within Queensland? trained by these companies will not be of advantage to this State, because the normal Mr. HODGES: Yes. practice is for them to return to the home Mr. Casey: They are waiting for the Aus­ State of the company. tralian Standards Association to produce a Probably the main projects on which com­ code which they will be prepared to accept. panies of architects from interstate would be Mr. HODGES: That will be something for used would be high-rise buildings which are local authorities to consider when the time something new to Queensland. ' That is comes. The hon. member's suggestion is ~pparent from the action taken recently to commendable, but I point out that it does mtroduce the Construction Safety Bill, which not come within the legislation. The board repeals the Inspection of Scaffolding Acts. no doubt could look into that aspect from It is unlikely that there will be a big influx of time to time to see what could be done. architectural companies from other States, because to use their services would only add The hon. member suggested that the Bill to the cost of a project, particularly if archi­ opens the way for big interstate firms to tects were available in Queensland with the come to Queensland. That is not quite so, ability to draw up plans and specifications for because such firms are already operating high-rise buildings. here. This provision is more or less an attempt to rationalise the situation by I am devoting a little more time to this requiring interstate firms to register in question not to delay the Committee but to Queensland. see whether I can get a clearer picture of what is intended by the clause. As I indicated Mr. Casey: Have they been acting illegally earlier, the Opposition is quite happy with the up till now? provision relative to architects sitting for Mr. HODGES: I do not know about that, examinations and seeking admittance through but we have not had control over them. the board and the powers of the board. How­ There was a case on the Gold Coast where ever, we would like to be sure that, by allow­ a man employed an interstate architect He ing a company of architects to be set up and has been involved in considerable expense to become associated with other bodies, we do and it will cost him a lot more before h~ not flood the State with interestate architects is finished because we have been unable to and deprive Queensland architects of work. make the interstate firm meet its obligations to its client in this State. Hon. A. M. HODGES (Gympie-Minister for Works and Housing) (11.39 p.m.): There Over all, the Bill will be beneficial to the is a shortage of architects in Queensland. public and to architects in general and I The employment of architects from other commend it to the House. ' State~ could not be controlled, and the only Motion (Mr. Hodges) agreed to. way 1t can now be controlled is by legislation. Architects Act [1 APRIL] Amendment Bill 3495

This Bill will not affect the State adversely other terms were used. As we interpret the in the manner the hon. member feared, or in clause, the former title is not allowed to any way at all. be used for the purposes of the Act. I Clause 5, as read, agreed to. want to make quite sure that this is the intention of the Bill. Clause 6-New Part IliA; Approved Architectural Companies- As we read the measure, the only persons who can be registered are architects who are Mr. CASEY (Mackay) (11.40 p.m.): In dealing solely and specifically with structural his second-reading speech the Minister con­ plans and specifications. Architects' assistants firmed that the main reasons for the intro­ are already included in the Act and, of duction of the Bill were the activities of course, the other classification mentioned was interstate architectural corporations that are "landscaping architect". We feel that the now set up in Queensland, and the dif­ inclusion of these people is defeating the ficulties he is having with one particular main purpose of the Act. group. I can foresee the same thing happening with many others. Hon. A. M. HODGES (Gympie-Minister for Works and Housing) (11.46 p.m.): As I The new section 27 A refers to the sum said at the second-reading stage, the archi­ of $50,000 as the amount of an architect's tectural technician will not be allowed to do professional indemnity insurance policy. I the work of an architect. He can do certain do not believe that the sum is as large as work under the supervision of an architect. it should be. I understand that the standard He will not do the full work of the architect cover in the Works Department and in civil in the true sense, but he can perform work engineering specifications is something in under the architect's supervision. the vicinity of $100,000 or $200,000, depending on the size of the contract. Mr. CASEY (Mackay) (11.47 p.m.): The I realise that in a Bill such as this we point I desire to raise in connection with cannot have a sliding scale, but I believe clause 10 is that subsections (2) (c), (d), (e) that the amount prescribed is not sufficient. and (f) of the Act are deleted and replaced Could the Minister tell us why the sum by a new clause relating to approved archi­ of $50,000 was chosen? After all, it is an tectural companies. The effect is that sub­ insurance indemnity; it is not a deposit sections (2) (e) and (f) of the Act are indemnity or a trust type of indemnity. It completely deleted. I can understand sub­ would not attract an extremely high policy paragraph (e) being deleted, because it rating. stipulated that all architectural work done by Within the profession, most architects act any such body or association should be in a professional manner and have a very carried out under the personal supervision high code of ethics, but there are those and management of an architect. Provision is who do not conform. After all, it is not made elsewhere in the Bill for architectural the architect who is being protected; it is corporations to have such management, but the public or the principal, as the case subparagraph (f) provides-- may be. "the name or names of the aforesaid architects concerned is or are and shall be Hon. A. M. HODGES (Gympie-Minister set forth on every advertisement, signboard, for Works and Housing) (11.42 p.m.): The label, invoice, or other document in which sum of $50,000 is a minimum averaged out such name, title or letters is or are used on the claims made over recent years. That by such body or association of persons." is why the amount of $50,000 has been set. As the hon. member said, it is not for In such a corporation there would be a the protection of the architect but of the board of directors and it would not be pos­ public in general. sible to have all their names appearing on any signboard or advertisement. However, all Clause 6, as read, agreed to. legal documents, including letterheads and Clauses 7 to 9, both inclusive, as read, particularly plans and specifications should agreed to. contain the names of the architects or at least Clause 10-Amendment of s. 28; Prohibited the registration number issued by the board. practices-- That is an important point. Civil engineering corporation letterheads and plans and Mr. NEWTON (Belmont) (11.44 p.m.): I specifications bear the names of the qualified wish to clarify a point to make sure that and registered persons who control the cor­ we are quite clear about what is intended poration as well as the name of the by this clause. The Bill was introduced corporation itself. I think specifications and only last Friday. The clause makes deletions plans should show, as a minimum, the fact from the existing Act and inserts some new that the corporation is registered in Queens­ subsections. We want to be sure that there land and its registration number. is no lowering of the qualifications. Clause 10, as read, agreed to. This matter was raised at the introductory stage. The Minister may have replied to Clauses 11 to 13, both inclusive, and the point tonight, although I do not think schedule, as read, agreed to. he did. I am concerned about the term Bill reported, without amendment. "architectural technician". At the intro­ ductory stage "landscaping architect" and The House adjourned at 11.51 p.m.