LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL

Thursday, 3 March 1994

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The President (The Hon. Max Frederick Willis) took the chair at 10.30 a.m.

The President offered the Prayers.

LEAVE OF ABSENCE

Motion, by leave, by the Hon. J. H. Jobling agreed to:

That leave of absence be granted to the Hon. D. J. Gay until 21 March 1994.

PETITIONS

Retail Tenancies Review Legislation

Petition praying that the House support the Retail Tenancies Review Bill, received from the Hon. B. H. Vaughan.

STANDING COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL ISSUES

Sixth Report: Sexual Violence: The Hidden Crime

Debate resumed from 2 March.

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH [10.36]: As Chairman of the Standing Committee on Social Issues, it is with great pleasure that I advise members of the House of the release of the sixth report entitled "Sexual Violence: The Hidden Crime" tabled out of session on 20 December last. The inquiry into the incidence of sexual violence in New South Wales was referred to the committee in response to the considerable media reporting on the results of the international crime surveys, which found that in the area of sexual incidents against women over 18 years of age, Australia ranks highest among the surveys mentioned. To ascertain the accuracy of these results and to examine other data and research in the area, the Minister for Community Services, the Hon. Jim Longley, referred the matter to the standing committee. The report seeks to understand the extent of sexual violence rather than explain why it occurs. Issues such as prevention and treatment will be the subject of a later report on this subject, which the committee intends to bring down later this year.

It is this earlier report's aim to provide as complete a picture as possible of the magnitude of sexual violence experienced by women in Australia generally and in New South Wales specifically. The report represents the first stage of the committee's inquiry. It provides extensive statistical analysis of the results of international, national and State data that measure sexual offences. The study looks at sexual violence experienced by women over the age of 18 years. The age limit was determined by the research upon which the committee was requested to comment. The committee recognises fully that girls under the age of 18 years, and males, also experience sexual violence. Indeed, during its investigations of overseas data, the committee was informed that one of the highest risk groups for sexual violence was that of girls under the age of 18 years.

In preparing this report the committee received 43 written submissions from the public, held five days of hearings and briefings, two afternoons of site inspections in Sydney, and visited government officials, service providers and academics in Melbourne and Perth. In addition, a subcommittee undertook an overseas study tour, visiting a number of the nations that participated in the international crime survey. The uniqueness of sexual violence was a factor that impinged very strongly on the committee. Victims of crimes such as car theft or home burglary tend to hasten to the police in an attempt to recover the stolen goods and commence the process of making insurance claims. By contrast, the victims of sexual violence are often not so forthcoming in reporting their victimisation to authorities, friends and family. The reasons for this reluctance are numerous and complex.

Many criminologists and social scientists consider sexual violence to differ from other personal crimes and property offences. Lynn Hecht Schafran, for example, considers sexual violence to be unlike any other crime. Sexual violence differs qualitatively from other forms of assault in the way it transpires and in the way the criminal justice system responds to it. It is the view of the committee that sexual violence is a unique crime. This uniqueness impacts on both the collection and analysis of victimisation data. Included in the features and dimensions that contribute to the uniqueness of sexual violence are, for example, victims' emotional responses. Not only do victims feel angry and outraged, as any victim may, but the sexual violence victim often experiences additional emotions, such as shame, guilt, embarrassment, feeling dirty and used, and feeling confused.

Prejudices and stereotypes are other factors in the uniqueness of sexual violence. A number of negative perceptions of sexual violence victims are perpetuated by cultural myths. These include the myths that women invite sexual violence by their appearance or their behaviour; that even though a woman says no, she really means yes; and that if a woman is drunk she "deserves" - and I place that word in quotation marks - to be assaulted. These myths are wrong and only shift, incorrectly I should add, the focus from the perpetrator to the victim. Reactions of friends and family are another factor in the uniqueness of sexual violence. Sexual violence victims often do not receive sympathy and concern from those closest to them, perhaps because of the tendency to blame the victim, to which I have referred Page 121 already. Another factor is the long-term health consequences. Unlike most other crimes, sexual violence often impacts upon the physical, psychological and mental health of the victim. A study from the United States of America, for example, has shown that women who have been sexually assaulted are 13 times more likely to have major alcohol problems and 26 times more likely to have major drug abuse problems than those who have never been sexually assaulted.

The victim-perpetrator relationship is another consideration. In most serious crimes the perpetrator's identity is unknown to the victim. In the majority of sexual violence cases, however, the perpetrator is not a stranger. He is more likely to be someone known to the victim as a work colleague, acquaintance, friend or relative, father, brother, past or current boyfriend, fiancé or husband. The victim is faced with an extremely difficult situation in those cases where the perpetrator is the de facto or husband. The victim lives not only with the rape but also with the rapist. Multiple victimisation must be examined in this context.

The Hon. Dr B. P. V. Pezzutti: Are some of these assaults not committed by women?

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: Indeed. I mentioned earlier that sexual violence is not exclusively a problem faced by women over the age of 18. Others are involved as victims and as perpetrators. Given the paucity of data on women as perpetrators, I am hesitant to emphasise the level at which women might be perpetrators of sexual violence, because it is vastly and predominantly a crime committed by males. In regard to multiple victimisation, research suggests that certain groups of women are particularly at risk of experiencing sexual victimisation repeatedly. Those groups include Aboriginal women, those with disabilities and women in violent relationships.

Re-victimisation by the justice system is another factor that needs to be considered in relation to sexual violence. Many victims feel that the justice system minimises the seriousness of their assault and they subsequently feel re-victimised by the system. Bias motivated hate crime is another relevant consideration. Some women are victims of violence simply because they are women. Crimes of violence based on gender are becoming known as bias or hate crimes. The committee members believe that all of these attributes impact significantly upon the willingness of sexual violence victims to report, and consequently upon any research data that can be gleaned in this area.

Over the years criminologists and crime surveyors have developed three major sources for gathering information on sexual violence. The sources include, first, statistics available from crimes known to police; second, victimisation surveys which attempt to estimate the level of crime in the community by producing estimates based on survey responses; and third, self-selecting or self-reporting surveys which gather information from respondents who voluntarily choose to participate in the surveys. It is the second type of measurement tool, victims surveys - and especially the international crime surveys of 1989 and 1992 - on which, in keeping with the committee's terms of reference, the report focuses. The first international crime survey was conducted in 20 nations, including Australia, in the first few months of 1989. Standardised methods were used in the sampling procedures, interview methodology, survey questions and data analysis. The survey covered a broad range of property and personal crimes, including car and bicycle theft, burglary, robbery, sexual incidents and other assaults.

A second survey was conducted in early 1992 utilising largely the same questions as those asked in the first sweep. The 1989 survey found that Australia ranked highest of all nations in terms of the number of female respondents reporting some kind of sexual incident during the previous five years and the previous 12 months. However, of those women reporting a form of sexual incident over the previous 12 months, none described the incident as a completed rape. In the 1992 survey Canada and Finland ranked higher than Australia in terms of women being victimised once or more in the previous 12 months. When the results of the two surveys were averaged and weighted, Australia was found to be the highest ranking sexual victimisation nation at 5.4 per cent, followed by Canada, 3.9 per cent, and the United States, 3.4 per cent. Despite those results, the committee found that there were limitations in the international crime surveys that throw into serious question the validity of their results.

The shortcomings identified by the committee include, first, demographic factors such as female labour force participation, high standards of living and urbanisation, with Australia being one of the most highly urbanised participating nations; second, national and cultural differences with respect to the interpretation of questions and sensitivity to the issue of sexual offences - and I shall return to speak about those issues later, because of their importance - and third, the small sample sizes and response rates. Many nations used very small sample sizes, which would have resulted in relatively large sampling errors. For example, in Australia there were no individuals who had experienced a completed rape. That is one of the shortcomings of a survey of such small size, that it is possible not to get any individual who has experienced a serious crime.

Fourth is the matter of interview technique. This is where telephone ownership is relevant. Varying rates of telephone ownership among participating nations may have introduced a bias. Telephone culture and acceptability have relevance because people of some nations are more reluctant than others to talk on the phone. Another relevant factor relates to data reliability and validity because there is a risk that respondents gave socially desirable rather than honest answers. The fifth matter relates to survey design and conduct. Factors relevant here include the wording of the survey and specific questions. Incorporation of phrases that require subjective interpretation or are value laden can reduce the accuracy of the data obtained, especially with sexual violence issues.

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Also, there is memory decay. Respondents were asked to comment on events occurring over a five-year period. The timing of fieldwork is relevant. Surveys were conducted in the European winter and the Australian summer. It may have been the same time of year on the calender but in real terms it was different because crime rates are traditionally higher in the summer months. Conducting the survey during the Australian summer may have resulted in higher reporting rates of sexual incidents by Australian respondents.

Given such shortcomings as these in the international crime surveys, the committee has concluded that in the area of sexual violence, the international crime surveys were seriously flawed. In turn, their sexual offence results are unfounded and invalid. Also, the committee considers to be unfounded media attention placed on the findings that Australia had the highest incidence of sexual offences in the world. It was interesting that such a finding was trumpeted in major articles throughout the media but when research demonstrated that those results were unfounded, articles were not published to the effect that the news might be good after all and that people should not be fearful as a result of previous articles. Sadly, good news is no news, though the lack of data is such that we are really unsure about whether this is good news. We simply do not have the figures to ascertain the level of sexual violence overall.

The committee is recommending that our conclusions be conveyed by the New South Wales Attorney General to the Standing Committee of Attorneys-General. Further, the committee considers it inappropriate for the results to be considered in policy decisions relating to sexual violence. The committee examined also the appropriateness of including sexual violence in surveys such as the international crime survey. Given the unique dimensions of sexual violence, we considered it inappropriate for sexual violence to be included in future international surveys attempting to measure the incidence of general crime unless the shortcomings identified were addressed. On the question of whether the finding of the international crime survey was a predictable result, the subcommittee which undertook the overseas study tour felt there to be a degree of predictability in the results of the sexual incidents questions in the international crime surveys. In speaking to large numbers of government officials, lobbyists, service providers and academics, we felt that the results were linked in some way with social awareness of, and a commitment to, national gender equity issues.

Nations such as Canada had in place a wide range of programs and provisions for female victims of sexual violence. The subcommittee was impressed with progress that had been made. Among the measures observed by the subcommittee were extensive legislative provisions for sexual assault victims; widespread and extensive consultation in the development and subsequent evaluation of this legislation; provision of training and education programs to ensure police and judiciary are familiar with the legislation and that the criminal justice system is victim oriented; supply of kits to health care personnel to perform sensitive and standardised medical examinations on sexual assault victims; and design and development of tools to measure national sexual violence in a sensitive and appropriate manner.

Canadian organisations in place to assist sexual violence victims include the Metro Action Committee on Public Violence Against Women and Children, METRAC, which works to improve public safety; the Legal Education and Action Fund, LEAF, which intervenes in the legal system on behalf of women; and the National Association of Women and the Law which keeps the issue of gender and the law on the national public agenda. Given the specific measures found in Canada and the fact that the issue of gender equality is very much a matter of national public debate, many officials with whom members met did not perceive their nation's high ranking to be entirely negative. They saw the ranking rather as a demonstration that various strategies, such as legislative change and public education campaigns, were paying off and women were becoming more prepared to recognise and report their victimisation.

In marked contrast to Canada was the situation in France observed by the subcommittee. There, support for victims of sexual violence was comparatively limited in areas such as legislative provision; there is no legislative provision for marital rape. Also, there is no centre or refuge for sexual violence victims in Paris - a city of nine million people and almost three times the size of Sydney. We were informed that there is one refuge for domestic violence victims. On the subject of appreciation by the criminal justice system of victims' needs, legal aid in France is dependent upon the income of the victim's husband who, of course, may be the perpetrator. A victim with an affluent husband may have no access to either legal aid or, if her husband so chooses, to funds through him to pursue a case. As to data collection by national data collection agencies, we were told that France has "done little to collect statistics on sexual violence". A number of women's organisations and researchers also informed the subcommittee of that.

While unable to quantify our impressions, we came to two conclusions regarding the reporting of sexual violence. We considered there to be strong links between the status a nation accords to women and the level of sensitivity, albeit at a national level, to the issue of sexual violence. Those nations attributing relatively high status to women also tend to have relatively high sensitivity to sexual violence. Also, we considered there to be strong links between the level of a nation's sensitivity towards sexual violence - and indirectly, status accorded to women - and the willingness of its women to report sexual violence. Nations having relatively high sensitivity to sexual violence appear relatively more willing to report sexual violence, resulting in those nations having higher reporting rates in victims' surveys.

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The next matter relates to the Canadian model. The committee perceived one shortcoming of the international crime surveys to be their generalist nature. They sought to ascertain the incidence of not only sexual violence but also a range of other personal and property crimes. This very broad approach is not fully supported by a number of researchers. For example, Canada has sought to ascertain the nature and extent of violence against women by designing and developing a targeted survey which asks very specific questions about this form of abuse. The survey, known as the violence against women survey, asks questions about three types of violence: wife assault and sexual and physical assault by non-intimates. In taking this broad perspective, the survey is the first of its kind in the world. It is unique in many other respects. An extensive consultation process was undertaken by the survey designers to ensure questions reflected concerns of women who were victims and survivors of violence.

In addition, the survey developers made considerable effort to ensure the survey used words, concepts and approaches that reflected accurately women's experiences, that were sensitive, and that minimised any fear or trauma that may arise from discussing violence. Careful consideration was also given to the interviewers chosen to administer the surveys. Interviewers were selected on the basis of their knowledge, experience and sensitivity towards the subject-matter. The committee considers such a broad approach to be advantageous in gaining an understanding of the violence inflicted upon women on a national scale. It saw considerable merit in undertaking such a survey and recommended that the Canadian survey be used as a model for a similar survey to be conducted in Australia by the Australian Bureau of Statistics. I recall that of the 12,000 women who completed the survey, about 39 per cent of them had experienced sexual violence - that is, more than one-third of the population.

If Australia is even remotely comparable to Canada, sexual violence is a problem of such magnitude that it needs to be treated seriously and research projects of this order must be carried out in order to get a better indication of the extent of this hidden crime. What committee members learned while examining the situation in Canada was enormously helpful. It needs to be stressed that the investigation of excellent practices in other jurisdictions not only brings those ideas to the attention of New South Wales but also avoids the expensive and resource wasting procedure of reinventing the wheel. In my view, the subcommittee's overseas visit was, like so many visits by parliamentary delegations, an enormously useful way of gaining maximum benefit from the knowledge and experience of other places at minimum cost to New South Wales.

I turn to the aspect of measuring sexual violence in Australia. Though Australia has yet to conduct a survey as specific as the Canadian survey, various attempts have been made to ascertain the nature and extent of sexual violence on a national level. Given differences in legislation, counting rules, and recording practices across the various States, nationally comparable statistics have not been available in the past for many crimes, including sexual assault, and that is very disappointing. However, the National Crime Statistics Unit has begun work on establishing a system that will produce nationally comparable statistics. The unit will also co-ordinate a program of national crime victim surveys. The committee supports the work of the National Crime Statistics Unit. It recommends that the Attorney General, and the Minister for Police and Emergency Services, maintain support for and commitment to the unit's objectives.

Victimisation surveys have also been used to measure sexual violence in Australia at both the national and State level. The primary national survey was conducted in 1983 by the Australian Bureau of Statistics. The results suggest that five in every 1,000 females over 18 years of age are sexually victimised annually. Less than one-third of these incidents were described by respondents as rape or attempted rape. To report the results of the various victim and self-reporting surveys reviewed in the report would be very time-consuming. Suffice it to say that the results show considerable divergence.

The Australian incidence rate for sexual violence ranges from 1.5 to 184.4 per 1,000 of population, while the prevalence rate ranges from 0.5 per cent to 7.26 per cent. The highest rate comes from the international crime survey estimates. These results vary considerably from other results and are difficult to reconcile with data from other sources, although information given to the Standing Committee on Social Issues by frontline service providers, such as women's refuges, also indicated a substantially higher level of sexual assault than is recorded in any official statistics. All Australian studies support the vast amount of overseas research on the nature of sexual violence. At both the national and State level sexual violence was more often committed by someone known to the victim; took place in a private home - either the victim's or that of the offender - and most victims did not report the attack to the police. The reasons women gave for not reporting their victimisation to the police included: shock; guilt; feelings that the police would not believe them; previous bad experiences with the police; worry about going to court; and fear of reprisals from the offender.

The committee's study highlights the shortcomings of available sexual violence data in Australia. Given the different methodologies used and the objectives of the various agencies gathering information, it is not possible to make comparisons that are meaningful. Some estimates do not take into consideration multiple victimisation, while others are based solely on offences reported to police or health authorities. The committee's report forwards a total of 11 recommendations aimed at enhancing the reliability and validity of measurement tools designed to ascertain the extent of sexual violence in Australia. However, the committee recognises that these Page 124 recommendations will go only so far in addressing the issue. The other aspect that must be considered relates to the willingness of women to report victimisation to either police or survey interviewers, or to participate in phone-ins and other self-selecting surveys. As the report acknowledges, the uniqueness of sexual violence is such that not all women are prepared or willing to report. Some women will continue to elude surveys and statistics, regardless of improvements in measurement tools.

Research on what motivates victims to respond to questions about sexual violence to telephone interviewers, or to report to police, is limited. It is the committee's opinion that this is an area in need of further examination in conjunction with the development of more sensitive and accurate measurement tools. It is an issue that will be pursued in the committee's second report, which should be tabled later this year. That report will consider a number of issues relating to victims and offenders. A broad approach will be required to take into consideration all relevant issues, including gender equality, ritual abuse, offender rehabilitation, and the judiciary. I anticipate that the orientation of the recommendations will be towards prevention, protection and redress.

Before concluding I would like to bring a related issue to the attention of members. As members of the House are no doubt aware, the Standing Committee on Social Issues has before it three violence related inquiries. In addition to the sexual violence inquiry, it is looking at rural suicide and at youth violence. In seeking solutions to these three forms of violence the committee felt there was a need to look at the issues within their overall societal context. To this end, the committee has prepared an issues paper which looks at the broad picture. The paper is entitled "Violence in Society" and provides an important adjunct to the material provided in the sexual violence report. It is also an important paper when considering youth violence and suicide. I commend it to honourable members.

In conclusion I wish to express my gratitude to the members of the committee who provided valuable contributions to this report. It is a testament to our strong commitment to the issues discussed that the report has the support of all 10 members of the committee which, as honourable members would know, represents the five different political parties that make up this House. Particular thanks are due to the staff of the committee. The director, Dr Jennifer Knight, has taken primary responsibility for this report and I commend her for her meticulous collation and analysis of the data. Mrs Annie Marshall was the staff officer who turned our raw data into bar charts, graphs and other user friendly formats. It was a major challenge that she handled very well indeed.

Senior project officers, Alexandria Shehadie and Glen Baird, were as professional and dedicated as they invariably are with every inquiry, and Heather Crichton was also of great assistance to the committee. Heather has now moved to the Standing Committee on State Development and we wish her the very best for the future. As a whole, the staff of the Social Issues Committee secretariat deserve commendation. Their roles are demanding, particularly when the committee is pursuing a deadline, and their professionalism in working extraordinary hours when needed is crucial to the achievements of the committee, not least this report. On behalf of the Standing Committee on Social Issues I commend this report to the House and draw attention to the dedication of part 1 of the committee's sexual violence inquiry to those women whose lives have been altered by sexual violence, yet have found the dignity and strength to survive.

The Hon. ANN SYMONDS [11.10]: I endorse the concluding remarks of the Chairman of the Standing Committee on Social Issues, Dr Marlene Goldsmith, in which she praised and acknowledged the work of individual members of the committee.

The Hon. Dr B. P. V. Pezzutti: Surely that is not the only part the honourable member will agree with?

The Hon. ANN SYMONDS: Unless it has escaped the notice of the honourable member, this report is unanimous, a matter which I also acknowledge. The report "Sexual Violence: The Hidden Crime" is the sixth report of the Standing Committee on Social Issues and it is the third unanimous report. This is an outstanding document, part 1 of an inquiry into sexual violence. I am pleased to emphasise that the report is unanimous, despite the snide reference by a member opposite. In regard to the previous three reports delivered by the committee, I was one of four dissenting members from the report on medically acquired AIDS; I was one of three dissenting members from the report on juvenile justice; and I was the only dissenting member from the report on the openness of the registry.

The Hon. Dr Marlene Goldsmith: Not on everything, in any of those reports.

The Hon. ANN SYMONDS: No, not on everything. I know what my role was and I know from what I dissented. I do not need to be reminded by the chairman. I am pleased with the positive outcome of this report process. All honourable members will agree that the end result of this report is a testament to the committee system. I am a great believer in committee systems. Though the system is frequently derided as a possible waste of time and effort, it is a valuable system of inquiry, particularly for those with responsibility to seriously examine issues of social concern and consequence. Although some committee members may approach the task with prejudices arising from their own experiences, the committee system allows issues to be put in clear perspective. The application of the committee system of inquiry expands the knowledge of committee members and is ultimately beneficial to us all and to the community.

Though it is not productive to reintroduce the areas of difference expressed in the committee, it is fair to note that we differed over some matters of concern. However, the desire to produce a strong Page 125 statement overcame those differences. This reference was given to the committee in 1992 by Minister Longley, when the standing committee was asked to conduct research, precipitated by the 1989 international crime survey, which purported to reveal that Australia had the highest level of sexual violence in the world. The report contains a table showing quite clearly that the survey indicated the rate of sexual offences in Australia as 184.4 per thousand - an alarming figure.

The fact that committee investigations then revealed that, according to the Australian Bureau of Statistics, the figure in Australia is more likely to be 6 per thousand, reveals the concerns the committee ultimately expressed about the ICS. That the media and some public figures readily accepted the survey results as a true picture of the level of sexual assault in Australia was indeed alarming to me at the time. Having been involved in the development of law and programs to combat sexual and domestic violence since the 1970s, I was aware that New South Wales at least had an outstanding record in openly confronting these issues and led Australia for a considerable time in the development of law and practice. As we travelled around the States in our inquiry we learned that some States, particularly Victoria and Western Australia, have surpassed New South Wales in some of their reform measures. Nevertheless, we should continue to be proud of our record.

The main thrust of the reform measures had been to provide women and children with legal remedies, with changes to the law and practice, and with programs to allow them to escape from violence and to encourage them to report violence. I believed at that time the ICS was indicating the level of progress in Australia in convincing women that sexual violence is a crime, and that our level of reporting was probably not matched anywhere in the world. It is relevant to compare New South Wales with Canada. The high level of progress may have something to do with the degree of emancipation and reform endemic in those two societies, which have liberated themselves from the old world. It was evident from the outset that an important distinction was to be made between the rate of actual assault and the rate of reporting. United States annual surveys since 1973 show a level of incidence of assault of 100 per 100,000, but the level of reporting has climbed in that time from 20 to 60 per 100,000. Roderic Broadhurst, of the University of Western Australia, said in evidence to the committee:

What is interesting about the US survey is that it actually shows a decline, which is interesting all by itself, but that the official records have gone up at an amazing rate.

Recommendations have been made in the report to overcome the fact that sufficient data is not available to comment on trends in Australia. The uncertainty about the level of assault is reflected in Australia and evidenced by a report in the Newcastle Herald of February 1993 in which the Hon. Dr Marlene Goldsmith declared that women in Australia could face a one in eight chance of being raped. She went on to say that the chances could in fact be much higher than that, depending on the figures that were believed. This is clear evidence that statistical collection is urgently required so that the real level of assault in this country can be assessed. The wildest claims were made in relation to the incidence rate, because of the erroneous assumption that all that must be done is to multiply the average annual risk by life expectancy. As Don Weatherburn of the New South Wales Bureau of Crime Statistics said:

There are two major flaws in this approach. The first is that the risk of becoming a victim of violent crime is highly age dependent. The second is that violent assaults are not scattered randomly through the community. Individuals assaulted once are likely to be assaulted several times in the course of their life. When repeated victimisations are included in the calculation of lifetime risk the resulting estimates are grossly over-inflated.

In other evidence received in England, Miss Pat Mayhew said that their data collection showed that 50 per cent of crime related to only 6 per cent of victims. It is a minefield to attempt to calculate lifetime risk, especially when the multiple victimisation factor is not taken into account, although it should be. In July 1993 Pia Salmelainen and Christine Coumarelos of the Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research conducted a valuable survey of adult sexual assault in New South Wales. This survey shows that women aged 16 to 25 years have the highest risk of being assaulted. When the State is divided into statistical divisions, the areas with the highest incidence are inner Sydney and the Western Division. This credible and useful data requires further examination and targeted policies, which I am sure will be pursued during the second part of the committee's inquiry.

Another issue that raises difficulties in assessing the incidence of crime is the interchange in the use of the words rape and sexual assault. This interchange compounds the lack of knowledge on this subject and gives false notions of levels of crime, that is, serious crime versus offensive behaviour. The chairman said the committee interviewed 14 people in New South Wales and 39 people in its interstate inquiries. An overseas study tour was undertaken by the chairman and the Hon. K. J. Enderbury, who visited eight countries. That study tour provided a considerable amount of data that enhanced the committee's understanding of the level of reform that has already been achieved in Australia. Several committee members visited Canada, the United States of America, England, Switzerland, France, Belgium, the Netherlands and Italy.

The committee report acknowledges only two witnesses in England. I joined the committee in England and France, and I am aware that many more than two people were spoken to in the United Kingdom. I distinctly remember speaking to at least three groups in the United Kingdom. Though I was disappointed at the time at not being included in the overseas subcommittee tour, I made a particular effort Page 126 to be present at the London meeting because I believed it was important to hear evidence from Miss Pat Mayhew. She was one of three people in charge of the design and collection of the ICS material. She certainly was extremely illuminating about the nature of the survey and the way in which it was conducted. She said that she argued very strongly not to have sexual assault included because it was difficult to quantify.

Though people have clear ideas of whether their cars had been stolen or their houses had been broken into - there is no ambiguity in their minds about such incidents - there is a blurring of the distinction between sexual assault and harassment. Therefore, for a survey to be taken without describing the incident, in order that it may be categorised by researchers, but leaving it to those being surveyed to categorise, leads to errors. There is also an unwillingness to report, even to the surveyor, that the crime has occurred, because it is viewed with varying degrees of shame by women in different cultures. Of course, Pat Mayhew lost that argument with the two male persons who were designing the research project, but she could not have been stronger in her conviction that the survey results as indicators of levels of sexual violence in society were meaningless. In fact, she refused to publicise them in the United Kingdom and continued to argue that no useful deductions could be made as far as British society was concerned. Therefore, it seemed quite appropriate that we could deduce the same results from our survey.

I was pleased to speak with the French witnesses to the committee and to note the alarming differences between their society and ours, which leaves women in an extremely vulnerable position. The subcommittee was told by those women that the marriage ceremony words "for better or worse" were supported by State law and are only now being challenged by French women. That comment gave committee members an insight into the low levels of protection for women in that society. The stigma of rape that attaches to French women means that a woman is more likely to blame herself, and sex is seen as a private issue. The public acknowledgment of domestic violence has occurred only in the past two or three years in France and sexual harassment at work is just now becoming subject to law.

Committee members were appalled to learn that in France one woman a day dies at the hands of a former partner. There are severe restrictions on the potential to report crime because of the level of proof that is required to be provided by the victim. Women victims are required by law to undergo psychological assessments to ensure they are not lying. I mentioned earlier Roderic Broadhurst. He was a valuable witness to the committee. He outlined the problems that occur in Australia in comparing statistics from the different jurisdictions because of differences in data collecting, illustrating the pressing need to have a national standard for reporting.

Data in Australia from the New South Wales Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research and the Western Australian Crime Research Centre reveals an incidence of about six per thousand, which is remarkably different from the ICS result. The ICS encountered a number of problems that made comparisons difficult. One that initially astonished me was the small sample size. There were about 2,000 in the Australia-wide sample, 1,100 of which were women. Of those, only 10 had reported sexual assaults. Several expert witnesses said that this made the survey statistically unreliable. The survey was a telephone survey, using random digit dialling in some countries but not in others. This presented significant problems as far as accurate data collection in Australia was concerned.

There was also no follow-up in Australia of those who did not comply with all the survey requirements. For instance, the ABS has the power and makes it a practice to follow up non-compliers so that an evaluation can be made of the impact of their responses to a survey. That did not occur in this instance. Women from 14 countries were asked about rapes, attempted rape, indecent assault or behaviour that was offensive. This question was flawed because of the assumptions that these words had the same meaning for women in 14 countries. Clearly they do not. All experts appearing before the committee found this assumption astonishing, as did the committee members. It was acknowledged that memory decay had an impact on the validity of data collected to calculate the number of incidents over the previous five years. Cultural differences in the degree of sexual repression also affected the reported incidence of assault. Generally the more sexually repressive the society was towards women, the less inclined women were to talk about sexual assault and an indication of a failure to report also affected them - a skewed view of the actual incidence of sexual assault in that society.

If one were to contrast the media comment on the ICS results with the ultimate fact that emerged from the committee's inquiry - none of the 75 Australian women who indicated they had been sexually victimised in 1988 described the incident as a completed rape - indications are that Australian women are aware of the distinctions in the offences of harassment, discrimination, sexually offensive behaviour and sexual assault in all its degrees. Broadhurst said it was irresponsible to draw the conclusions that were drawn from the survey on sexual assault. He said that a combination of accident and design had led to Australia having the worst rate, but the figures were so malleable that they could have been organised to reveal Australia as having the lowest rate. The committee, therefore, concluded that the international crime survey results were invalid and misleading. The proposition that Australia was the most sexually violent country in the world was unsubstantiated. It would be pleasing if the media could convey that message as strongly as it conveyed the original alarming and erroneous messages.

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The committee's first recommendation is very clear: that the Attorney General convey to the Standing Committee of Attorneys-General the conclusions of the Standing Committee on Social Issues that the findings of the international crime surveys in relation to questions of sexual incidents are unfounded and invalid. There are many reasons why we note in Australia an increase in the rate of reporting. It is not sufficient. The rate of reporting is unsatisfactory. Certainly no one would argue that Australia has an acceptable rate of reporting. However, women have been encouraged to report. Australia has established victims' services, rape crisis centres, sexual assault centres and refuges, and substantial changes have been made to the law. Public education programs have been instituted so that people are increasingly aware that they are entitled to report that a crime of sexual violence has been committed against them.

Although statistics will never give the true picture of the extent of sexual violence in our society, they reveal that men overwhelmingly are the principal perpetrators of this violence. Moreover, although the balance is shifting somewhat, particularly in relation to child sexual abuse as noted in the various revelations about the systematic assault of boys in institutions, women and girls remain overwhelmingly the victims of sexual violence. Part 1 of the report examined the statistical evidence and whether the ICS was correct in stating that Australia had the highest incidence of sexual offences, but it was found to be without substance. Part 2 of the report - to be released later this year - will examine issues such as gender equality, prevention, education services, offender rehabilitation, and law and procedure.

All committee members agreed absolutely that although the level of sexual violence, actual or reported, cannot be quantified at present, the level is unacceptable. In examining the explanations of violence, the committee's work will be coloured by the ideological framework from which it operates. I suspect that some distinct differences will occur between Reverend the Hon. F. J. Nile and me on some matters. For example, pornography and its likely links to sexual violence will be a controversial matter. As the committee said in its issues paper, evidence of a causal link between pornography and violence against women remains controversial. A number of government inquiries have examined the issue, and I am sure the committee will expand upon that in part 2 of its inquiry.

I notice that the time for this debate is expiring. I should like to make one final point relating to the causes of sexual violence in our society. I am concerned that we do not become obsessed with definitions of obscenity and with questions of prohibition of pornography as simple measures that will lead to the elimination of violence against women. It is a far more complex issue than that. The issue of pornography over the past years has divided feminists around the world. [Time expired.]

PROTECTION OF CHILDREN FROM INDECENT IMAGES BILL

Bill introduced and read a first time.

Second Reading

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH [11.36]: I move:

That this bill be now read a second time.

This bill is a very small step to take for the protection of our children. It is a moderate response to a genuine community need. At the moment, small children walking past or entering newsagents or kiosks are confronted frequently with posters and magazine covers featuring semi-naked women in titillating poses. Pornography treats women as objects, as things, as inferiors to be used. Public display of such materials reinforces such attitudes, especially for children, who are less able to analyse critically such material. The bill will protect children from the exhibition of indecent material in retail stores and commercial establishments that are accessible to the general public.

The bill will require newsagents to display pornographic magazines in such a way that only their titles can be read. However, it will not ban or prevent the sale to adults of any material that they can currently purchase. The purpose of the bill is to protect children from exposure to so-called soft core pornography such as certain covers on magazines like Playboy, Penthouse and People. It will also enable those adults who do not wish to see such materials to avoid them. In short, the purpose of the bill is to provide: first, both the freedom of people to see such materials and equal freedom for other people not to see them if so desired; and, second, both the freedom of adults to acquire certain materials and the protection of young children from such materials. The freedom of people to see such materials and the freedom of adults to acquire those materials exist already and have been widely reinforced in our community. It is about time that the obverse freedoms also gain some public attention, support and respect.

Our right to see what we please cannot infringe on the rights of others not to be forced to view pornography, nor on the obligation of society to protect its children. This bill seeks to protect children from premature exposure to pornography by keeping public areas free of the display of such materials. It is a bill to empower the family and to recognise that all citizens have rights, including the right to choose whether or not to see pornography and the right for parents to be able to protect their children from such materials. The genesis of this bill goes back several years. If there was an ultimate catalyst that galvanised me into action on behalf of the community of New South Wales it was the issue of People magazine published in March 1992 showing a naked woman on all fours in a dog collar and on a tight leash with the caption, "Cover Girl Wolf. More Wild Animals Inside".

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The Hon. Franca Arena: Disgusting!

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: The feature inside the magazine continued the same theme - woman as a dog. I note the comments of the Hon. Franca Arena, and I am grateful for her support in this matter. To my mind the image was not intended to be erotic; it was intended to be degrading and demeaning. It was intended for those males who see females as inferior, who want to see females as nothing more than animals to be kept on a leash for males to use. This cover of People magazine was not the beginning of my concern, but the last straw. The cover of the previous issue of People magazine was also extremely degrading, and the cover of the issue that followed the "Woman as a dog" cover showed a naked woman, apparently covered in bruises, with the caption, "Lightning strips golf stunnas". In other words, a battered woman is either erotic or humorous, however the reader chooses to interpret this image.

When I said that it was extraordinary to use the image of a battered woman as an erotic image one publisher of pornographic materials accused me of having no sense of humour because it was intended to be amusing. Far too many women in our society are the victims of violence for it to be a joke. In my view, violence is never a joke. Some years ago my doctoral thesis examined the value messages that ordinary television drama programs present to their viewers. My interest in the media and its messages has remained strong. Recent years have given me increasing cause for concern about the escalating level of violence in general and increasingly violent and degrading images in pornography. The images that magazines such as People and Picture specialise in are images of naked and semi-naked women as various kinds of animals and images of women with animals. The subliminal message appears to be that women are animals.

Another message that has concerned me in one of these magazines is of a naked woman on all fours being used as a table for men to rest their beers on while they play cards. Woman as object, woman as animal and woman as thing are the images to which we are exposing our small children. These are the images that we are showing little boys of what it is to be a woman in our society. These images help to shape the views of those young boys of women and women's roles. Equally they are the images we show to little girls of what their roles will be when they grow up. Is it any wonder that, at around the age of puberty, girls in our society suffer a substantial drop in self-esteem - a factor that has been established by educational researchers.

When many of the images of adulthood that are presented to our little girls are images of women as nothing more than pieces of meat for male consumption - women as objects and women as animals and, in other areas, such as fashion magazines, women as nothing more than anorexic clothes-horses - is it any wonder that our daughters go through such a crisis of self-image? Is it any wonder that we have an epidemic of eating disorders among young girls? And not just eating disorders? Researchers have also found that the performance of girls in subjects such as mathematics and science drops at the age of puberty. The ability of girls to do well at mathematics and science is no different from that of boys until about the age of puberty, but at that time something makes them lose their self-confidence and their desire to achieve in such areas. I would argue that the sorts of images our female children see on the covers of pornographic magazines are a part of the process that attacks their self-esteem at that age.

The Hon. Dr B. P. V. Pezzutti: What about our males at that age?

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: The Hon. Dr B. P. V. Pezzutti asks about males at that age. A similar drop in self-esteem has not been demonstrated in boys around the age of puberty. Educational researchers have examined that area quite closely. It appears to be something that is linked specifically to girls. Such pornographic images are not about sex; they are about violence. They are a form of violence against women. Many people believe that such imagery is intended, principally, to be erotic, but a close examination of much of this material will reveal that it is the sort of imagery that I have been describing - imagery that is not about erotica but about subjugation. It is interesting that in New South Wales we have specific anti-vilification legislation to protect people from racial attacks and stereotypes. The Government has recently extended such protection to include the homosexual community. But the large-scale denigration and degradation of females in many pornographic publications is supposedly quite acceptable.

In my view it is not acceptable. It is about time that we, as a society, extended the same protection to women that we extend to other groups, not least because women are major victims of violence and perhaps the greatest victims when we consider the level of sexual and domestic violence, in both of which females are overwhelmingly the victims. The bill will require that pornographic images not be displayed where small children can see them. In other words, newsagents and other places of business located in public areas to which children have access should not display images that many parents consider unsuitable to be seen by children - images of nude women clearly designed for sexual titillation and images of men that have a similar intent.

I am indebted to my colleague the Hon. Dr B. P. V. Pezzutti for drawing to my attention the desirability of making this bill non-discriminatory. Consequently, it includes male as well as female imagery on the grounds that male pornographic imagery is unsuitable to be seen by small children, as is female pornography. As the material under discussion overwhelmingly consists of images of females and as such material, in my view, has substantial negative effects on the roles and rights of women in our society, I have taken on board the comments of my colleague. This final draft of the bill includes male pornography as well as female Page 129 pornography. Parents should have the right to protect their children from both. Nor will posters advertising such magazines any longer be displayed in shop windows or on the street outside a shop when such posters are themselves indecent.

I am sure honourable members will recall how the anger of the women of New South Wales was so strongly heard in relation to People's "woman as a dog" cover. The anger of women all around Australia was prompted not only by the existence of that cover and its display but also by the fact that it was blown up into very large posters that were also publicly displayed on streets and in shop windows. The only way to protect a child from such images would have been to keep the child at home and away from public places altogether. In the 1990s no one is suggesting that we bring up our children in purdah so that pornographers can have a free reign to display what they will. Certainly I am not. Yet without this bill, keeping children completely away from shops and shopping centres is the only option left for parents who wish to shield their little ones from such material.

I was in a newsagency recently where I observed a man with a small child. The man, presumably the father, was browsing through motoring magazines. The toddler, who would have been no more than three years old, picked up a pornographic magazine and said to the man, "Look at this". The man immediately took the magazine from the child put it back and moved on, clearly embarrassed that his child had seen such a thing, and simply motioned to his child to move away from that place. It is interesting to note how frequently such magazines are displayed at what is, for small children, eye level.

Freedom of speech is a fundamental freedom of our society. However, like all freedoms, it implies and demands responsibility in its exercise and it includes an obverse side, as I have mentioned already: freedom of speech must include freedom from speech that is accepted by a substantial proportion of the community as being offensive. In other words, the freedom of some people to see certain material must also allow for the freedom of others not to see such material when it is likely to give offence to sections of the community and when the community generally would consider it to be unsuitable for children.

I emphasise again that the bill will not restrict the access of any adult to any material that adults may currently purchase. Indeed, the bill will not even prevent the public display of such material so that adults can see it and purchase it. All that the legislation will do is prevent the display of unsuitable images when they form part of the covers of magazines. Publishers have a choice. They can publish the magazines without unsuitable images on the covers or they can take other alternative action. Most of the magazines have their titles printed across the top of them, because similar restrictions to the ones proposed by the bill now operate in other areas, for example, in parts of the United States. In this way magazines can be displayed in so-called blinder racks, that is, racks that show the title only across the top of the magazine but do not allow the remainder of the cover to be seen. Alternatively, these types of magazines can be displayed in opaque covers. Purchasers can thus see the magazines but not the image on the covers.

The bill does not specify how or whether a newsagent should display such magazines. The only specification is that demeaning and naked images on the covers of magazines not be visible to children. As honourable members may recall, I brought forward the bill in a draft form for public discussion about 18 months ago. The discussion process has been most fruitful and helpful. I am grateful to all of those who made submissions. The change suggested by the Hon. Dr B. P. V. Pezzutti is one of those that have been accepted and included in the bill. Another change is a tightening of the provisions that ensure that works of art will not be included within the prohibitions of the bill. Contrary to allegations in the Sunday Telegraph in March 1993, my purpose in life is not to run around Hyde Park putting fig leaves on the statues on the Archibald Fountain. The bill in its present form is clearly restricted to publications displayed for a commercial purpose and "publication" is clearly defined to include any book, magazine, periodical, paper, newspaper, pamphlet, poster or billboard. In other words, the bill is quite restrictive.

During the period when the bill was available for public discussion a concern was raised about the definition of a child as "a person under the age of 10 years". Some people were concerned that because of the definition the protection of the law would not be extended to children over the age of 10 years. That is not the case. Because the bill covers public places, any material that is unsuitable for a child under the age of 10 years will not be able to be displayed at all. Therefore such images will be kept away not only from children under the age of 10 years, but from display to all children, and indeed all adults, including the many adults who specifically do not wish to see material of this type. As I have stated previously, the title of this type of magazine can be displayed and material advertising the magazine, provided the advertising material does not contain sexually explicit, violent or degrading images.

Another concern that has been expressed to me is that because New South Wales is part of a multigovernment national agreement on censorship, the introduction of a bill such as this will confuse the issue by taking New South Wales out of line with the other States. In my view that is not so. In fact, the bill should only ensure that the standards laid down in the voluntary guidelines issued to publishers in New South Wales are obeyed. The submission of materials to the Office of Film and Literature Classification to ensure that they comply with such guidelines is a voluntary process, and therefore over the years there has been an ongoing economic encouragement and stimulus to publishers to keep pushing the boundaries, to put more and more titillating material on their covers in the hope of making sales, until we had reached the stage where it was considered normal to show a woman as a dog.

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There is a real difficulty with a system of voluntary guidelines when they come up against the imperative of making a dollar. Furthermore, it is my pleasure to report to the House that a bill with a similar intent to my own was recently passed by the Victorian Parliament. Victoria is another signatory to the multigovernment agreement in Australia, as is the Northern Territory. Given the response of the community to my bill, I should not be surprised if the remaining States were to develop similar bills. Indeed, another signatory to the agreement - Queensland - has exceptions to the guideline material. I refer honourable members to the guidelines published by the Commonwealth Chief Censor where they will see that restricted category one and restricted category two provide exceptions for Queensland; material in either of those categories is not to be sold in Queensland. It is quite possible to be a part of the multigovernment agreement and still have exceptions to the way the process operates in other States. New South Wales will not be setting any precedent in that regard.

In fact on this issue of the display of pornography, the States have indeed moved ahead of the Commonwealth and, in my view, it is time that the Commonwealth caught up. Until that happens nothing can be done about the access of our children to the many forms of pornography being traded across State lines. A criticism I have received is that the bill does not go far enough. It is a modest proposal, and does not pretend to be anything more than that. When I initially proposed this legislation it was a step into the unknown. For years New South Wales has operated under an agreement with the Commonwealth, most of the other States and the Northern Territory for the Commonwealth Chief Censor to be in charge of the classification and regulation of pornography to which I have just alluded.

The PRESIDENT: Order! Pursuant to sessional orders, business is interrupted for the taking of questions.

QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

______

BROKEN HILL DAYLIGHT SAVING

The Hon. B. H. VAUGHAN: I direct my question without notice to the Attorney General and ask him is it a fact that the South Australian Government has extended daylight saving in that State? If so, what will be the position of Broken Hill, which takes Central Standard Time, when daylight saving ends in New South Wales on Sunday next?

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: It is a fact that Eastern Standard (Daylight Saving) Time finishes this weekend. At present, under the gazettal notice Eastern Standard (Daylight Saving) Time applies to Broken Hill. If nothing were done, the termination of Eastern Standard (Daylight Saving) Time would result in Eastern Standard Time for New South Wales. Broken Hill would have been at Central Standard Time and South Australia would have been at Central Standard (Daylight Saving) Time. I have not the slightest doubt that would have generated massive confusion.

In 1991 an agreement was reached between the States for the adoption of daylight saving in South Australia, Victoria and New South Wales. At that time it was agreed that if any State were to depart from the standard arrangements for daylight saving, the other States were to be notified. In 1991 New South Wales was notified that for the purposes of the 1992 Adelaide Festival, South Australia would extend daylight saving for two weeks. Having been so notified, in 1991 we extended daylight saving time in the Broken Hill area to enable Broken Hill to remain within the Central Standard (Daylight Saving) Time arrangements. The South Australian Government decided that for this year it would again extend daylight saving in the Central Standard Time area for a further two weeks but did not inform New South Wales. On Tuesday of this week the honourable member for Broken Hill, Bill Beckroge, contacted me.

The Hon. D. F. Moppett: He did not contact the Chamber of Commerce.

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: He did not notify anyone else but he contacted me about this particular problem. I spoke to the Hon. D. F. Moppett to ascertain what was occurring in the area. He then contacted the Chamber of Commerce. It was ascertained that there was support for keeping Broken Hill in arrangements with South Australia. Yesterday my office contacted every airline that operates out of that region to ascertain what impact this would have. Also, my office contacted every tourist bus operator that could be identified in the region as well as railway operators. As an interesting aside, some of the airlines did not even realise there was a difference in time. They had assumed that Broken Hill would continue to be part of the Central Standard (Daylight Saving) Time arrangements.

As a consequence the Governor has approved alteration of daylight saving for Broken Hill to ensure that it will be part of Central Standard (Daylight Saving) Time. I expect that notice to be gazetted today and I have notified local authorities and the honourable member for Broken Hill. Also, I have given an instruction to my department as I understand that South Australia, as only it could do, every second year will have a different standard and different daylight saving time. Rather than have this situation arise again, I shall ensure that in the gazettal of daylight saving arrangements in New South Wales in future the Broken Hill area, normally associated with Central Standard Time, will always remain associated with that time, whether it be Central Standard Time or Central Standard (Daylight Saving) Time. This will alleviate the need to gazette different notices and will ensure that Broken Hill continues to identify with the necessary central time arrangements.

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AUSTRALIAN LABOR PARTY EDUCATION STATEMENTS

The Hon. R. T. M. BULL: I address my question without notice to the Minister for Education, Training and Youth Affairs, Minister for Tourism and Minister Assisting the Premier. Is the Minister aware that the Australian Labor Party has lied about education issues during February? Is she also aware of the Australian Labor Party pledging education promises -

The Hon. M. R. Egan: On a point of order. It is quite out of order for members, in framing their questions, to frame them in pejorative terms. That has been ruled by the Presiding Officer in every Chamber in every Parliament in the Westminster system. Indeed, it is contained on the back of the question form used in the lower House. It is completely out of order for the honourable member to frame his question in that way.

The Hon. J. P. Hannaford: On the point of order. My recollection of the question asked by the honourable member referred to the Labor Party and did not relate to any person or member. As a consequence I submit that criticism of organisations or entities is not a matter that would breach any ruling. Certainly, if it related to any person I would take a different approach to the point of order.

The PRESIDENT: Order! I am having a little difficulty in recalling precisely what words the Hon. R. T. M. Bull used, except that I note he used the word "lie". Perhaps it would clarify the matter if, rather than have me try to rule on something about which I am not entirely clear, he could start his question again.

The Hon. R. T. M. BULL: I address my question without notice to the Minister for Education, Training and Youth Affairs, Minister for Tourism and Minister Assisting the Premier. Could the Minister inform how many education mistruths were circulated in the media in February?

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: I thank my colleague for his important question because, as Parliamentary Secretary assisting me on matters relating to education, he and I, as well as all who have an interest in education in New South Wales, have been increasingly concerned by the comments, untruths and misrepresentations of the Leader of the Opposition and his colleagues on education matters. As a result, with the assistance of my staff I have been keeping track of comments, promises, and downright untruths that were made in the month of February alone. In that month $330 million worth of education promises were made. In terms of the allegations, assertions, untruths and, in my view, downright lies, I have now undertaken a compilation of those untruths, lies and fanciful promises that have been made by the Leader of the Opposition and his colleagues, and I intend to keep a weekly tally.

In the month of February alone there has been a Labor lie every 35 hours, there has been a lot of untruths and misrepresentation on educational matters. Promised worth $330 million work out at $490,000 of educational promises every hour in the month of February alone. This has been ascertained largely by an examination of the press releases of the Opposition and analysis of the metropolitan press. To assist me to keep an accurate record in future on a statewide basis, I have requested the assistance of my colleagues. I am hoping that as they move around the State in provincial towns and regional centres, if they encounter similar misrepresentation, Labor lies and false education promises, they can advise me and my office so that an accurate tally can be kept. However, the Opposition will be hard-pressed to beat the month of February where a lie occurred every 35 hours and during every hour a promise was made of $490,000 for education.

AUSTRALIAN MUSEUM MARDI GRAS DISPLAY

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: I ask the Attorney General and Minister for Justice, representing the Minister for the Arts, a question without notice. Is it a fact that the Australian Museum has an offensive, explicit homosexual and lesbian mardi gras parade exhibition containing photographs, posters, et cetera, which has been allegedly arranged by Mr Chris Puplick, a museum trustee, for the month of March? Is it a fact that this offensive exhibition is alongside a children's family display which is being viewed by visiting school groups, by primary and secondary school children? Will the Government immediately order the Director of the Australian Museum to remove from that museum this offensive exhibition, which has no part in the Museum's historic charter?

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: I am not aware of the exhibition. I will draw the matter to the attention of the Minister for the Arts.

PUBLIC SECTOR EMPLOYEES 4 PER CENT SALARY INCREASE

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: I direct my question to the Minister for Education, Training and Youth Affairs, representing the Minister for Industrial Relations. Why is the Government unfairly denying the 4 per cent salary increase awarded by the Industrial Relations Commission to groups of public sector employees?

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: I will forward the honourable member's question to my colleague for his response.

ACCESS TO SCHOOLING FOR RURAL STUDENTS

The Hon. Dr B. P. V. PEZZUTTI: My question is addressed to the Minister for Education, Training and Youth Affairs, Minister for Tourism and Minister Assisting the Premier. Will the Minister inform the House what measures will be undertaken this year to improve access to schooling for rural students? How will the New South Wales Government enhance the quality of rural education services?

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The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: Rural education has been a high priority with the Government since 1988. Indeed, this Government has established distance education centres across rural New South Wales, improved access programs and, through the use of innovative technology, has provided choice to rural students and their families that was not available previously. In this regard, I pay a special tribute to those of my colleagues who have served on the rural education committee, particularly the Hon. R. T. M. Bull. He and many others have assisted the work of that committee, ably chaired by the honourable member for Albury, Mr Ian Glachan, and have taken a particular interest in the needs of country schools.

I acknowledge also the contribution of my colleague, the Hon. D. F. Moppett, who has always been swift to bring matters to my attention and who has been an ardent lobbyist - sometimes in a manner that does not make Ministers feel comfortable - in lobbying for the interests of our rural community. Through the combined efforts of many people, the country areas program provides valuable support to rural community and students, the living away from home allowance has been increased by 2.5 per cent this year, the Northern Borders access program has been extended this year, operating at Boggabilla, Collarenebri, Goodooga and Mungindi central schools. Isolated schools grants assist students and family. In addition, realising the stress under which rural families lived, the Government introduced a rural recession package to provide special assistance to rural families, particularly those who were having difficulty meeting hostel fees and other associated costs.

Through consultation and negotiation, there is a good system of incentive for teachers, encouraging them to work in isolated areas of the State and providing them with certainty that having served in those isolated areas they will gain priority in transfer to more populist areas. The distance education centres are exemplary and are working out extraordinarily well. This year, up to 60 scholarships have been awarded to rural students to assist them to avail themselves of opportunities to attend agricultural high schools such as Farrer Agricultural High School, Yanco and Hurlstone. These are all fine schools, upgraded by the Government. In the near future the official opening of further upgrading at Yanco will take place. There is no way that all the disadvantages of isolated rural learning can be overcome, but every endeavour has been made over the past four years to ensure that life in rural or isolated areas of the State is no educational disadvantage to students.

RE-EMPLOYMENT OF SCHOOL COUNSELLORS

The Hon. ELISABETH KIRKBY: My question without notice is addressed to the Minister for Education, Training and Youth Affairs, Minister for Tourism and Minister Assisting the Premier. Is it a fact that 21 school counsellors previously employed by the department, who resigned, are now seeking re-employment? Is it also a fact that the names of these counsellors are known to the director-general and to the Minister? Is it the Minister's intention to appoint these people to additional school counsellor positions and so reduce the student counsellor ratio? If not, why not?

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: I thank the Hon. Elisabeth Kirkby for her question. I am aware that for a long time the honourable member has shown a deep interest in counselling services in the Department of School Education. I value her interest and support for that fine work. It is true that through administrative savings the Government this year has been able to institute a $5 million new welfare program which includes the appointment of 20 additional counsellors. At this stage I am not in a position to say whether the 20 people in question, as individuals, are those to be appointed, but I shall take advice. The addition of those school counsellors reduces the student counselling ratio to the lowest it has been in the history of school counselling, though I suspect the honourable member will say it is too high.

OFFICE OF YOUTH AFFAIRS CONSULTANCIES

The Hon. A. B. MANSON: My question is addressed to the Minister for Education, Training and Youth Affairs and Minister for Tourism. Why did the Minister allow Jillian Skinner, when Director of the Office of Youth Affairs, to spend nearly $300,000 on public relations and evaluation projects carried out by consultants when the unit has its own staff of 27? Further, can the Minister explain why the Office of Youth Affairs engaged consultants for two six-month periods, that is 12 months or one year, to evaluate Youth Week, which is seven days?

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: I most certainly thank the honourable member for his question because it provides me with the opportunity to put to rest several Labor lies that have been perpetrated and peddled in recent months. One of the chief culprits spreading this mischief is the Leader of the Opposition. It was because of the frenzy and the hyperbole surrounding this matter that the Leader of the Opposition showed his true colours in the North Shore by-election. He said that a Labor Government would abolish the Office of Youth Affairs in New South Wales. Shame, shame, shame!

The Office of Youth Affairs, the New South Wales youth policy statement and the monitoring of youth initiatives across all government in New South Wales are models that have been adopted not only by every other State but also by the Federal Government. A youth policy, a structure, an operation and a monitoring mechanism that had been established in New South Wales were adopted well over 12 months ago by present State governments that were neither coalition nor Liberal Party governments and by the Labor Federal Government. It is Mr Carr and the New South Wales Opposition that is well out of step.

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Young people in New South Wales comprise a quarter of the State's population. They will have no voice if ever we are unfortunate enough to have a Labor government in this State, because the Office of Youth Affairs will be abolished. The Leader of the Opposition has shown himself to have absolute disregard for young people. Whether by rash promises in education services, cynicism or the disfranchising of a quarter of this State's population, the Labor Party has shown itself to have scant regard for young people.

Until recently some who held high office in the Federal Parliament may have been well advised to evaluate the efficacy of programs. Some people who seem to fund programs or to perpetuate programs with the use of whiteboards may have been well advised to take a more serious view about the merit or otherwise of programs. The Office of Youth Affairs does not run programs that have not gone to tender. The programs are evaluated and, before they are rolled over, are externally evaluated and tested to ensure that money spent on youth programs in New South Wales meets the needs of young people; that the programs are efficient; that the program goals are achieved; and that young people are being assisted, whether in training programs, youth programs or others. We do our job well. That view is shared by every other State of the nation and by the Federal Government, but clearly not by the Labor Party in this State.

OPPOSITION LAW AND JUSTICE STRATEGY

The Hon. J. M. SAMIOS: My question without notice is addressed to the Attorney General, Minister for Justice and Vice President of the Executive Council. I note that the Leader of the Opposition in another place detailed his law and justice strategy to the media yesterday. Are these not the same forward policies he detailed to the media one Sunday last December?

The Hon. M. R. Egan: On a point of order. The purpose of question time is to elicit information and not to participate in debate. The question framed by the Hon. J. M. Samios is clearly argumentative.

The PRESIDENT: Order! There is no point of order.

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: I thank the honourable member for his question because, as a lawyer, he has an interest in law and justice. No doubt the Leader of the Opposition interjected because he and most members of the Labor Party were embarrassed when they read the announcement for law and justice matters published by the Leader of the Opposition in the other place. What was published yesterday was virtually identical to that put out last December. Every person who read what was published last December was grossly embarrassed at that time. The statement was wrong in December and continues to be wrong today.

One Sunday last December - it was a quiet news day; the media even chased me up - the media said that Bob had put out this announcement. It was a cobbled together piece of material titled "Policy Initiatives". At that time I said that it was obvious that the advice being received from Paul Whelan was flawed. I expressed the view that the Labor Party and the Leader of the Opposition ought to take care about listening to things that Paul Whelan had to say. A series of matters announced this week fed by Paul were nonsense. So much for trying to set a new agenda.

One of the proposals was that he intended to deal with the issue of diminished responsibility in murder cases. Obviously he has overlooked the fact that it was this Government that initiated a reference to the Law Reform Commission. That commission has released a discussion paper, and legislation in this regard will shortly be introduced. Obviously, the Labor Party is squirming about this particular issue, embarrassed by the paucity of thrust being given by the Leader of the Opposition. The Leader of the Opposition announced new measures to ensure domestic violence offenders are removed from the family home, rather than victims and children being forced on to the streets or into refuges. It is a shame that Bob Carr did not pay attention when Parliament passed legislation last December to achieve that objective.

Although Parliament has already dealt with this matter, the Leader of the Opposition announced it as his initiative. He did so this week, and he also did so last year when he announced these programs after the Parliament had dealt with them. He said also that he would deal with the classification of television video programs and video games. Over the past few months he has been traipsing around Europe and has obviously overlooked the fact that as a result of one of my initiatives the Standing Committee of Attorneys-General agreed recently to a new classification scheme. Michael Lavarch, the Federal Attorney-General, announced that the Attorneys-General had agreed to this new classification scheme. The Labor Attorney-General in the Australian Capital Territory will introduce a model piece of legislation that will be adopted by all Attorneys-General. The Federal Attorney-General has announced also that in May he will introduce a model piece of legislation that will be adopted by all Attorneys-General - all as a result of initiatives by the New South Wales Government.

The Leader of the Opposition said that sexual assault victims should be entitled to give video evidence and should be screened or shielded from offenders. Such a scheme has been in operation in New South Wales for a couple of years and is another initiative of this Government. But the coup in the policy announcements by Mr Carr is his suggestion that stalking laws should be toughened. He made exactly the same statement last year, only two days after lengthy debate in Parliament about the stalking laws, culminating in the passing of new legislation in this regard. I acknowledge that the Labor Party in the lower House amended the legislation to toughen it up and the Government accepted those amendments. New South Wales has the toughest stalking laws in Australia - in part the result of some amendments Page 134 moved by the Labor Party - but Bob Carr is still looking for tough stalking laws. If they were not tough enough last year, why did not he do something then?

Honourable members opposite are quiet now because they know that Bob Carr's statements in this regard are just a farce. His advisers took last year's statement, ignored the fact that the laws had been changed, picked out a few words, and put them into this new policy speech. But did they bother to talk to the Hon. Ann Symonds or to the Deputy Leader of the Opposition? Of course, we must understand that Bob Carr would not even give the Hon. Ann Symonds the time of day, let alone discuss something with her. That is a shame for the Labor Party because some of its members in this Chamber have a good understanding of law and justice policy initiatives. Unfortunately, they are on the left-wing of the Labor Party and it is the left-wing of the Labor Party in this place that wants to get rid of Bob Carr. At least the left-wing listens to the community.

I could continue with this list of so-called wonderful initiatives, but the House would be here for ever. The Leader of the Opposition told us that another issue he would deal with was related to legal reform. This is interesting. It is the Government that has driven the process of court reform and reform of the legal profession. It is the Government that has dramatically reduced the backlog of criminal cases in this State, not to mention the dramatic reduction in the backlog of civil cases that was left to the coalition when it came to office in 1988. Bob Carr said he will streamline pre-trial procedures to help reduce court delays. Only at the end of last year the Supreme Court issued a practice note to try to streamline court procedures in order to reduce delays. What happened? The Leader of the Opposition in this Chamber sought to amend legislation to have Parliament stop such streamlining procedures.

It was the Labor Party that was trying to interfere with the ability of the courts to be able to streamline pre-trial procedures. I often wonder whether the shadow minister knows what pre-trial procedures are. I wonder also who is giving advice to the Leader of the Opposition in this regard. Mr Carr announced that he would introduce a charter of victims' rights. It was the coalition Government that initiated the concept of victims' rights and the charter of victims' rights. The House ought to be aware that last year the Standing Committee of Attorneys-Generals met to discuss this matter and to try to develop a uniform charter of victims' rights in Australia. What happened?

Attorneys-General around Australia have virtually adopted this State's charter of victims' rights. New South Wales has led the way on victims' rights and the rest of the country is now adopting that charter. But the Leader of the Opposition is slow in catching up and is still talking about adopting a charter of victims' rights. Yesterday the Leader of the Opposition in this place said that a Labor Government would interfere in the market-place to try to do something for economic development. Not only would it interfere in the market-place but it would interfere with the Legal Aid Commission. Yesterday Mr Carr said that he would direct the Legal Aid Commission as to the allocation of increased funds for civil aid.

I am totally supportive of increasing legal aid for civil cases, and this Government has achieved that. But the Legal Aid Commission is an independent organisation. It is quite clear that the Labor Party is prepared to interfere with an independent organisation. This State went through a decade of Labor interference in the processes of government and the abuses of the processes of government, and that is why the Labor Party lost office in 1988. That is why the coalition government has had to toughen up procedures to ensure the independence of agencies in this State, to make certain that that sort of interference will not happen again. Yet yesterday's announcements show that the Labor Party has not learned anything, and this Government will keep reminding it of that.

SCABBY RANGE NATURE RESERVE

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: My question without notice is directed to the Attorney General, Minister for Justice and Vice President of the Executive Council, representing the Premier and Minister for Economic Development. Why did Cabinet exclude the Scabby Range Nature Reserve from the Goodradigbee Wilderness Area when it was identified as wilderness by the Director of National Parks and Wildlife? Was it because part of this wilderness area was previously leased to Peter Cochran's family and is right near Peter Cochran's freehold property?

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: I reject any suggestion or implication that might arise out of the last part of the honourable member's question. I will ensure that that part of the question is looked at closely and that a detailed response is provided to the honourable member. But I make it clear that the Government has been prepared to look at wilderness issues and to move ahead with the declaration of wilderness areas. In that regard the Government will ensure that the boundaries of those areas are appropriate and that the interests of existing users are maintained. The rights and interests of those who wish to use wilderness areas have to be taken into account when the Government makes a decision. The Government makes decisions on the bases of merit and need. I reject outright the scandalous suggestion that emanated from the honourable member.

OFFICE OF YOUTH AFFAIRS AND KOORI YOUTH PROGRAM

The Hon. JAN BURNSWOODS: I ask the Minister for Education, Training and Youth Affairs, Minister for Tourism and Minister Assisting the Premier whether the Office of Youth Affairs, when run by Jillian Skinner, directed Sydney university's Page 135 Aboriginal Education Centre to rewrite its findings in a report on the evaluation of the Koori youth program because the report showed deficiencies in the program and made recommendations for improvements? Did the office also order the centre to include in the report details of work that was never done? When the centre refused to doctor its findings, did the Office of Youth Affairs label the university's work as unsatisfactory and threaten to cut funding for the Koori youth program? Will the Minister now apologise to Sydney university and the Aboriginal Education Centre?

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: It is absolutely astonishing that the Office of Youth Affairs has operated for five years and has elicited nothing but praise within the State from youth groups, peak organisations, other States' youth officers or their equivalents, and from Federal agencies, yet we now have a change of heart from the Labor Party because, apparently, the Office of Youth Affairs is to be abolished because it is of so little value. The former director of the Office of Youth Affairs has her integrity brought into question as well as the integrity of her programs. What may have changed in recent months to bring about such a sea change in the attitude of the Labor Opposition to the Office of Youth Affairs? We have been told, and it has been reinforced by the Leader of the Opposition, that the Labor Party had no interest in the bi-election in North Sydney - it did not run a candidate, and apparently Robyn Read was an Independent. It is an absolute coincidence that the Executive Officer of the Office of Youth Affairs became the Liberal Party member for the seat of North Shore. Now there is nothing but denigration for the work of that office and, by implication, the work of the then executive director. I absolutely and totally reject that.

I am not sure where the honourable member got her information regarding the Koori program, but to the best of my recollection there is not one program but six Office of Youth Affairs Koori programs operating in New South Wales, operating at Broken Hill, Tumut, Taree, Emerton, Canley Vale and Glebe. I would be very interested if the honourable member were to suggest to me which of those programs or, indeed, whether all of those Koori youth programs should be abandoned. I would be very interested to know which of them she thinks are not up to the mark because I most certainly would take the honourable member's views to heart and examine those programs to determine whether they have a right to continue and whether they are doing well. If the honourable member is suggesting that the programs are in some way deficient and that they should not continue, I am sure that the Koori groups in those areas will thank the honourable member and the Labor Party for her interest.

GAY AND LESBIAN MARDI GRAS

The Hon. ELAINE NILE: I ask the Attorney General and Minister for Justice in his own capacity, and representing the Premier and Minister for Economic Development, and the Minister for Police and Minister for Emergency Services whether it is a fact that the proposed homosexual and lesbian mardi gras parade, which will be held next Saturday, 5 March, will contain offensive and indecent floats and participants? Is it a fact that the parade will contain also blasphemous floats and a large number of homosexual men dressed as Catholic nuns? Will the Government instruct the New South Wales Police Service, through the New South Wales Commissioner of Police, to enforce and uphold the liquor and noise laws of New South Wales without fear or favour during the homosexual and lesbian mardi gras, as well as the mardi gras party at the Sydney showground from 9 p.m. Saturday to 8 a.m. Sunday?

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: I have no idea whether the mardi gras will include offensive and indecent floats or blasphemous floats and material, but I have little doubt that police officers will enforce the law regarding whatever activities occur during the mardi gras. As to the latter issue concerning noise and the use of liquor, liquor can be sold at the party to be held at the showground pursuant to what is referred to as a governor's licence, granted by the Licensing Court. As a result of complaints received last year by the Liquor Administration Board about noise levels, the licence was reviewed. Stringent controls relating to noise, behaviour and the employment of marshals to monitor the noise will be applied to the licence. Those issues were the subject of discussion today between the Chief Secretary and me. It is in the interests of those who operate the mardi gras to ensure that the law is observed because the licence could be withdrawn if conditions attached to it are not observed.

The bulk of funding for the organisation of the mardi gras comes from income derived from the party and the Sleaze Ball, which will be held later this year, in September or October, when similar licensing restrictions will apply. One of the things that has to be kept in mind, as shown by the results of a study by the University of New South Wales, is that the mardi gras generates about $15 million for the State's economy. It is a major income generator for the State's economy - a matter that should be kept in mind. The mere fact that it generates a significant amount for this State's economy does not justify breaches of the law. I do not have the slightest doubt that the police will enforce the law, as they always seek to do in relation to these matters.

MILK FOR PRIMARY SCHOOL CHILDREN

The Hon. D. F. MOPPETT: My question without notice is directed to the Minister for Education, Training and Youth Affairs, Minister for Tourism and Minister Assisting the Premier. I know that the milk of human kindness is lavished on all students by the dedicated teachers in the service of the Minister, although it is singularly lacking amongst Opposition members, but I wish to deal with the milk which is derived from cows which has a more prosaic value in the nourishment of children. Will the Minister explain the details of a pilot program to Page 136 reintroduce milk to primary schoolchildren in the Wollongong area? Is it likely that that program will be implemented statewide?

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: I thank the Hon. D. F. Moppett for his eulogy and his question. Recently my colleague the Minister for Agriculture and I launched a pilot program in the Wollongong area to trial the reintroduction of fresh milk for schoolchildren. Most people from my generation would have been hesitant about introducing such a program, given some of the negative views many of us developed about fresh milk, and given the weakness of the previous Commonwealth free milk program. I have negative memories of warm milk left in the sun. All schoolchildren were lined up and it was compulsory for us to drink this warm milk, which I always believed was on the turn. It was with some scepticism and a little apprehension that I first explored with my colleague the possibility of a pilot program.

The negative aspects of the previous scheme and the fears concerning it have been addressed. A school entering into this pilot program cannot be involved without accepting the refrigeration requirements. I visited the school where we had the launch recently. The milk is attractively presented and is icy cold and fresh. In fact, the milk is subsidised. I pay tribute to the dairy farmers and the various associations involved in this pilot program. Flavoured milk is particularly geared towards primary schoolchildren in the hope that we can instil in them healthy eating and drinking habits. On the day of the launch I was able to ask all students at the school whether they had been attracted to trying the milk. They were enthusiastic about it. After talking to those people involved in the school canteen I realised that the school had sold out of milk the day before - the first day of the pilot program.

The program will have to be evaluated before it is implemented elsewhere in New South Wales. I note from questions relating to the Office of Youth Affairs that it appears that the Labor Party does not support the evaluation of pilot programs. We take our responsibilities seriously. We will be evaluating that pilot program. If it is as successful as it has started out to be, it will be extended across New South Wales. The milk, which is subsidised, is good for the family budget and particularly good for young girls who in later life might experience difficulties with osteoporosis and other related conditions. Milk has a lifelong benefit, especially for girls.

QUEANBEYAN MULTILINGUAL CENTRE FUNDING

The Hon. FRANCA ARENA: My question without notice is directed to the Attorney General and Minister for Justice, representing the Minister for Multicultural and Ethnic Affairs. Has the Government decided to withdraw funding of $32,620 from the Queanbeyan Multilingual Centre despite the fact that funding for the Ethnic Affairs Commission has increased by $7 million this year? Is the Minister aware that this decision, together with the decision of the Federal Government to cease funding for the centre, means that this valuable centre in Queanbeyan will have to close by 1 July this year? Will the Minister reconsider his decision and ensure that the funding of $32,620 to the Queanbeyan Multilingual Centre is restored not only this year but for the foreseeable future? Will the Minister report his decision to the House as soon as possible?

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: I am not familiar with the problem of funding for the Queanbeyan Multilingual Centre. I note that the Hon. Franca Arena made reference to Federal funding and to the withdrawal of that funding for this centre. Of late, the attitude of the Federal Government to funding programs has been a matter of grave disappointment to me. I will take up this issue. Let me take this opportunity to draw attention to one major matter which relates to the Office of the Status of Women. Over recent days my attention has been drawn to the fact that a domestic violence counselling service at Burwood court has had its funding withdrawn by the Federal Office of the Status of Women. A similar domestic violence counselling service at Maitland has just had its funding withdrawn by the Office of the Status of Women.

Last year the Federal Government took a high profile stance on this matter. I do not think this Government, this State or this House regard anything as more important than the issue of domestic violence and domestic violence counselling in the courts, in particular, the Burwood program which is exceptionally important in assisting people of ethnic origin. If anyone gains assistance from domestic violence counselling it is ethnic groups. The other day my attention was drawn to a quite outrageous situation. A wife who had brought charges against her husband was talking with officers. I am told that her husband charged in and said, "She has already decided to withdraw these charges, have you not?" or words to that effect.

The Hon. Ann Symonds: Is it jointly funded?

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: No, it is a Federal program.

The Hon. Virginia Chadwick: That is what was said to Franca.

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: The Hon. Franca Arena has already decided to withdraw, so it is appropriate terminology. Perhaps it is something some members in the Labor Party are used to. I have referred to this program because the question of the withdrawal of Federal funding in the ethnic area has been raised with me. I will pursue this matter. It is time Labor Party members began to put pressure on their Federal colleagues about these federally funded programs, particularly those in New South Wales. They should ask their colleagues where they stand on important issues for this State.

The Hon. J. P. HANNAFORD: If honourable members have further questions, I suggest that they put them on notice.

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SYDNEY HELIPORT BILL

Suspension of Standing Orders

The Hon. M. R. EGAN (Leader of the Opposition) [1.1]: I seek the leave of the House to move a motion to suspend so much of the standing orders as would preclude the passing of the bill through all its stages during the present or any one sitting of the House.

Leave not granted.

Bill received and read a first time.

[The Deputy-President (The Hon. Beryl Evans) left the chair at 1.2 p.m. The House resumed at 2.30 p.m.]

PROTECTION OF CHILDREN FROM INDECENT IMAGES BILL

Second Reading

Debate resumed from an earlier hour.

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH [2.30]: I was speaking about the fact that other States which are part of the multigovernment agreement covered by censorship legislation have already moved to introduce amendments to their legislation similar to those I propose in this bill. I mentioned Victoria, which has introduced the Classification of Films and Publications (Amendment) Act. I congratulate the Attorney General, the Hon. Jan Wade, for that initiative. Inadvertently, I neglected to mention the South Australian Classification of Publications (Display of Indecent Matter) Amendment Act of 1992. I congratulate my South Australian colleague, the Hon. Bernice Pfitzner, MLC, on her initiative in promoting that legislation in South Australia. I am delighted to note that since I initially proposed changes to the legislation two years ago, my initiative has been taken up in other States. That strengthens the case for making a similar provision in this State. The argument that such a change will put New South Wales out of line with other States which are parties to the joint agreement will no longer wash.

As I said before the debate was adjourned, when I initially proposed the legislation it was a step into the unknown. For years this State has operated under an agreement with the Commonwealth and most of the States for the Commonwealth Chief Censor to be in charge of the classification and regulation of pornography, through the Office of Film and Literature Classification. A primary directive of the Chief Censor is to follow community standards and community wishes. Consequently I was of the view that the community was largely supportive of the increasing encroachment of pornography on newsstands, in movies, on television and even on advertising billboards and in other advertisements. It was only when my tolerance of such material snapped and I announced that I intended to introduce this bill that I realised what were the real feelings in the community. I discovered an increasing frustration, a sense from people that they could not make themselves heard, that no one was listening and that no one would take any notice.

Most of all, I discovered a mounting anger - and even rage - that people were not even able to protect their children and that community standards were being not followed but flouted. I discovered an angry, embittered and alienated community. Nor was this a small community. I would like to share with honourable members the support that I have had for my bill from individuals and organisations throughout the community. They include religious organisations which are concerned at the violation of Christian values that they see in the public display of pornography to children. Support has been expressed also by women's organisations, a trade union with a high proportion of women members, and individual feminists who have been increasingly concerned at the treatment of women by pornography and its consequences for women as citizens in a democratic society. I have been supported very strongly by men who share similar concerns about violence and sexual violence and by parents throughout the community who want the right to be able to bring up their children in the values that they espouse.

I have a list of some of the organisations that have supported me. I have received so many letters on this subject that if any organisation has been omitted from this list, I apologise, but this will give honourable members an idea of the level of support I have received. The list is in alphabetical order: the Anglican Diocese of Sydney, Social Issues Committee; Auburn-Bankstown Combined Churches Social Action Group; Australian Family Association; Australian Federation for the Family; Baptist Churches of New South Wales; Catholic Women's League; Christian Outreach Centre; Combined Churches of Gunnedah; Country Women's Association of Darling Point; Epping Baptist Church; Hay Baptist Church; John Wycliffe Christian School, Blaxland; Maitland Christian Church; Men Against Sexual Assault, which is an important community group that has been only recently established in New South Wales but whose members are taking important initiatives by stating a firm case against sexual assault and sexual violence. I commend them for the work they are doing on behalf of their gender in this important area.

The list includes also the New South Wales Women Justices' Association, Central Coast; New South Wales Women's Advisory Council; New South Wales Women's Co-ordination Unit, as it was; New South Wales Council of Churches; an organisation called ROSE - Raising of Standards Everywhere - which is based in Tamworth and has some very strong activists who have been instrumental in bringing issues such as this to the attention of the wider community. I commend Counsellor Warren Woodley in particular. Other groups who have given their support are the Shop Distributive and Allied Employees Association, and I am particularly grateful for their strong support; the Soroptimist International of the South West Pacific; View Club, Tumut; Women's Christian Temperance Union; and the Women's Action Alliance.

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I have received support also from existing and proposed pornography free zones. These are local community initiatives developed from and by the grass roots of New South Wales and designed to show those in control of the availability of pornography precisely what community standards are. I commend the concerned citizens who have worked so hard to achieve these zones in their local areas. I congratulate the local government areas that have chosen to acknowledge and support these grass roots initiatives. They include the Auburn-Bankstown Pornography Free Zone; Blue Mountains Pornography Free Zone; City of Shoalhaven Pornography Free Zone; Maitland Pornography Free Zone; Riverina Community Standards Association; and Wagga Wagga Community Standards Association. That is not the end of it. I have received 570 letters of support and 1,637 signatures on petitions in support of my bill. At the same time I know that many of my parliamentary colleagues have also received letters in support of the bill.

I am grateful to colleagues of all political persuasions in this House and the other place for their expressions of support. I am especially grateful to my Government colleagues, who have resolved in the party room to support the bill. I express my appreciation to the Attorney General, Minister for Justice and Vice President of the Executive Council, the Hon. J. P. Hannaford, who has been most generous in providing advice and support for this initiative. It is difficult to single out a particular member of Parliament, but I must on this occasion refer to my colleague the honourable member for Burrinjuck, Mr Albie Schultz, who facilitated and encouraged me to bring this bill to the attention of his constituents. However, many other colleagues have been strongly supportive, and I express my gratitude to them for that support and encouragement.

I should like to mention communications and representations I have received opposing the bill. There were only a handful, principally, and not surprisingly, from publishers. Two newsagents expressed concern, Dunn's Newsagency at Tamworth and McGregor's Newsagency at Leeton. I believe that I have addressed their concerns because they appeared to be mistaken as to the effects of my bill. I have not received further complaint from them since I responded to their representations. Many other newsagents have supported me. In particular, I mention Mr John Macdonald of Macdonald's Newsagency of Cronulla. He was so supportive of the concept of the bill that already he has implemented it with his own form of display that prevents children from seeing the covers on pornographic magazines.

Indeed, many newsagents have expressed concern to me about feeling obliged to display such magazines. That is not surprising because in many cases they are family people with a concern for family values and for the protection of children. Only today a husband and wife from a newsagency handed me new materials that had arrived recently for them to display in their store as a regular periodical. Although these magazines purport to be news magazines, when one opens them, one sees that they are full of pornographic images. It would be easy for an individual, and similarly for children, to pick up or purchase such a magazine in the belief that it was a family magazine without realising its pornographic content.

I take on board the concerns raised by my newsagent friends this morning - and that is only one example - coincidentally on the day I introduced my bill into the Parliament. This is a real problem for newsagents. Those who have been involved in small business know that proprietors of small business have enormous responsibility, often across a range of areas, and have little time to be concerned with politics and lobbying. I have particular concern for the newsagents of New South Wales because, unfortunately, the Newsagents Council, the body that makes decisions on behalf of newsagents, is actually dominated by publishers. Consequently, newsagents have no choice but to accept pornographic magazines whether or not they want them. Furthermore, they are forced to pay for them on arrival. The magazines may remain unsold for a period specified by the publisher - and that period may be as long as six months or 12 months. If they are not sold after that time, the magazines may be returned for a refund. However, in the interim publishers have the use of the newsagents' money.

This does not seem to be a fair arrangement, especially as newsagents appear to have no choice in the material they accept and can be threatened with non-supply of other publications from the same publisher if they refuse to accept pornographic material. I should like to share with honourable members a particular comment from a gentleman from Croydon, who has written to me stating:

I am writing to offer you my very strong . . . support for your initiative . . . I am an ardent proponent of liberalism and an avid user of pornography for most of my life . . . but sexually explicit material belongs in sex shops not at every local cash-register in the state. While I feel no shame or embarrassment in entering sex shops or brothels, I often feel embarrassed in the local service station and newsagency at the ubiquitous, tasteless and infantile rubbish which passes there for "men's interests". I feel ashamed of being a male and feel a sense of violation that these people have a sexual encounter of sorts with me without my consent.

It is also worth sharing with honourable members comments of the then Women's Co-ordination Unit on the bill in January 1993. The Women's Co-ordination Unit stated:

There is increasing community concern about the display of pornographic and sexually violent material. This concern is not diminished when violence towards women appears to be condoned in some circumstances by a South Australian Supreme Court judge. In commenting on his decision, Justice Elizabeth Evatt said that, "Judges . . . are simply reflecting the attitudes of the community". (SMH 14/1/93)

From recent media reports, the community is saying they want something done about this. Although Dr Goldsmith's Bill is not aimed at dealing directly with violent or demeaning images of women, it is part of a series of Page 139 measures intended to raise awareness about the issue, and to take action on the display of offensive material. The Women's Co-ordination Unit supports the action taken by Dr Goldsmith . . .

Women's Co-ordination Unit position:

While acknowledging the Bill will not ban or restrict the production, publication, distribution and sale of offensive material, many believe that restricting access to material does reduce violent behaviour. In an article in Time, January 6, 1992, the relationship between Wade Frankum's massacre at Strathfield and his consumption of pornographic magazines was highlighted, and many do believe there is a connection between constant subjection to brutalising images and violence against women. Dr Goldsmith refers to overseas research which points to this connection.

The Women's Co-ordination Unit believes this is an area which needs to be monitored, however it would be a concern if the link between violence and access to pornography disguised the fact that almost invariably, it is men as consumers and men as aggressors which is the problem.

Jocelynne Scutt comments that pornography is violence against women. (The Bulletin, June 18, 1991). The Women's Co-ordination Unit believes that depictions of violence against women in the form of pornographic images is a manifestation of the social power which men hold over women. It is the combination of power, sexuality and violence which is at issue here and the normalising effect that freely available demeaning material has on a community's conscience.

The association between violence for men and passivity for women in relation to pornography can be seen as part of a continuum of violence based on unequal power relationships. This continuum incorporates forms of violence from sexist advertising to exclusion of women from decision making, and from economic independence to sexual harassment, assault and murder.

The document concluded:

Violent pornography is a reminder to women that they are not equal in society. It is therefore important that governments take action on this issue.

I am grateful to the Women's Co-ordination Unit for its strong support in this area. There is now a fully fledged Ministry for the Status of Women in New South Wales, and I congratulate the Government on its initiative and strong stance and on its ongoing campaign to ensure that women's voices are heard and that women gain equality in New South Wales. This bill is but a small step in the direction of achieving such goals.

Degrading and demeaning images of women in movies, in pornography magazines, in advertising and endemically throughout our society are so widespread in our culture that many people take them for granted. They are normal, it is believed, but only because they have been so taken for granted. Similar images of men are illegal. Magazines containing images of naked, sexually aroused males are not allowed to be sold openly and unrestrictedly over the counters of newsagents and general retail stores, but images of naked females giving the appearance of sexual arousal are supposedly a different matter.

The Premier of Victoria, the Hon. Jeff Kennett, and footballer Andrew Ettingshausen regard it as demeaning and feel they lose their dignity if they are portrayed nude in photographs, but until recently there has been little questioning of the effect of widespread images of female nudity on female dignity and female equality, especially images showing women presenting themselves for sex, women with extremely large secondary sexual characteristics and women portrayed as animals and objects. The National Committee on Violence stated in its 1990 report that attitudes of gender inequality are deeply embedded in Australian culture.

Pornography demonstrates how deeply embedded those attitudes are, and how deeply embedded is the double standard for men and women. Yet there has been, in recent years, growing and increasingly persuasive research literature linking pornography not only with discrimination but with actual physical violence against women. Pornography is a form of media violence, and it is now widely accepted that media violence has an effect on actual violence. On this general argument I would like to share a few brief facts with honourable members.

In 1973 when an isolated town in western Canada was wired for television signals for the first time, University of British Columbia researchers observed first-grade and second-grade schoolchildren. Within two years the incidence of hitting, biting and shoving increased 160 per cent in those classes. Two Chicago doctors, Leonard Eron and Rowell Huesmann, followed the viewing habits of a group of children for 22 years. They found that watching violence on television is the single best predictor of violent or aggressive behaviour later in life, ahead of such commonly accepted factors as parents' behaviour, poverty and race. Their conclusion was that television violence affects youngsters of all ages, of both genders, at all socioeconomic levels and at all levels of intelligence.

An even more interesting experiment perhaps was conducted by University of Washington Professor Brandon Centerwall, who had noticed the explosion of murder rates in the United States and Canada that began in 1955, after a generation of North Americans had come of age on television violence. He went to South Africa, where the Afrikaner-dominated regime literally banned television until 1975. He found that eight years after television was introduced, showing mostly Hollywood produced fare, South Africa's murder rate had skyrocketed. His most telling finding was that the crime rate increased first in the white communities. This mirrors United States crime statistics in the 1950s and especially points the finger at television, because whites were the first to get it in both countries.

Professor Centerwall's conclusion is that without violent television programs there might be as many as 10,000 fewer murders in the United States each year. I am grateful to Carl M. Cannon for his comments in that area and for making that information available to me. There is clear correlation between violence in the media and violence in society. Those correlations have been growing stronger. There is very large research literature in that area, and the great majority of experts now accept the connection. I do not propose to go into that any further.

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I should share with honourable members a few examples of pornography and violence, as pornography is a form of media violence. It might be expected that sexual violence would be the logical outcome of exposure to sexual violence in the media. In Hawaii in 1974 restrictions were placed on the sale of pornographic material. Rape figures fell for the following three years. The restrictions were then lifted and rape immediately increased. The restrictions were reintroduced. In Oklahoma County so-called adult stores were closed in 1985 and a 25 per cent decrease in the rape rate occurred over the next five years from 1985 to 1990. In the remainder of Oklahoma there was no such law and no decrease in the rape rate. Both of those examples come from police statistics.

An exposure to soft core pornography of less than five hours over a six-week period - to consider academic studies as a contrast to police data - resulted in a halving of sentences thought appropriate for rape in the group study. This study was carried out by Neil Malamuth at the University of Manitoba. Many other studies are now corroborating this finding. A further study by Baron and Strauss in the United States found that the eight major men's magazines, which included Playboy, Penthouse, Chic, Club, Gallery, Genesis, Hustler and Oui have sales five times higher per capita in Alaska and Nevada than in other States such as North Dakota, and rape rates six times higher per capita in Alaska and Nevada than in North Dakota.

Overall, a fairly strong correlation was found between rape and circulation rates of pornographic magazines in the 50 States, even with controls for potential compounding variables such as region, climate, propensity to report rape and police practices. I could cite much more material on this subject. It is controversial, but the few studies that are cited against the argument that pornography causes violence are for the most part based on old data, and are looking increasingly threadbare as the evidence mounts for the case that media pornography causes sexual violence, just as general media violence causes violence in general.

However, horrifying such evidence is, it should not be necessary to have to prove that pornography leads to rape in order to say that children should be protected from pornography. Children have a right to childhood. Increasingly, our society has been taking that right away from them. Similarly, in a society that believes vilification to be so harmful that we must legislate against it, it is a great social injustice that the group which suffers most from vilification should be excluded from such legislative protection. Indeed, the vilification of women is not just legal, it is a major industry with the capacity to fund lobby groups to defend itself.

I thank all members of the public, all organisations and all members of Parliament who have been so supportive of this initiative. It has been an enormously educative process for me because I have gained a very strong sense of community views on this issue and a stronger sense that those views have been ignored in the past. Gender inequality remains entrenched in Australia and nowhere is this more clearly obvious than in the contents of, and in our attitude to, pornography. I also place on record my thanks to my research officer, Ms Janelle Haffenden, who has carried out a great deal of the work towards making the bill possible and has helped closely in liaising with members of the community and gaining information for me. I thank also my secretary, Ms Louise Glanville. Both have been dedicated to this task above and beyond the call of duty. It is their bill no less than mine.

Regarding visual imagery, gender inequality is clearly demonstrated by an incident in Adelaide in 1991 when, according to Vivian Vivian who was a reporter for the "7.30 Report" in Adelaide at the time, a huge uproar over greeting cards featuring a drawing - not a photograph - of a nude male inside the cards. It took only one day of outrage for these cards to be banned to an adults only section of the card shop. Yet far more violent, demeaning and degrading images of women are displayed in various stages of nakedness in the general public eye and on covers of magazines and posters on the streets. If we seriously care about providing equal opportunity for females in modern western society, it is long past time to take a careful look at the images of women we display to our children compared to images of men.

Millions of dollars are spent on affirmative action, anti-vilification legislation is passed to protect people from racial or homosexual vilification, yet misogynistic visual images appear to be sacrosanct. Women are being raped, beaten and murdered, but their right to life and liberty, their right to be treated as human beings and entitled to dignity, is considered less than the right to purchase or profit from pornography. That perception is the rub. If there is a distinction between the protection of people on the grounds of race or sexual preference and women, it is that the vilification of people for their race or homosexuality is not a major industry with all the lobbying power and economic sources at the disposal of a major industry.

This bill is a modest proposal. It reinforces current guidelines on censorship and is being strongly demanded by the people of New South Wales right across the political spectrum. In this International Year of the Family I am pleased to present this bill to the Parliament to empower the families of New South Wales in their important task of protecting their children. I thank all honourable members who have expressed support. I commend the bill.

Debate adjourned on motion by the Hon. Franca Arena.

HMAS SYDNEY

The Hon. D. F. MOPPETT [3.5]: I move:

That this House:

(1) recalls with great sadness the loss of HMAS Sydney on 19 November, 1941, off the coast of Western Australia;

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(2) expresses its sympathy to the relatives and friends of the ship's company and particularly those of her commander, Captain Burnett, especially in view of the continuing mystery surrounding the exact circumstances of her loss; and

(3) commends the efforts of the Sydney Research Group and the Western Australian Maritime Museum to locate the ship and calls on the Federal Government to support them with financial and technical assistance as required.

Honourable members in the Chamber will recall that solemn occasion on the anniversary of Armistice Day last year, when the remains of the Unknown Soldier were exhumed from his temporary resting place in France and brought back to Australia to be finally interred at the War Memorial in Canberra, as a fitting memorial to all who served on the western front in the Great War and to all servicemen and servicewomen who served in other wars. Honourable members also will recall the debate that took place on that day. The contributions of the Leader of the Government, the Leader of the Opposition, the Leader of the National Party, the Leader of the Australian Democrats and the Leader of Call to Australia were particularly eloquent and apposite to that important and moving occasion.

I was particularly moved by the supporting remarks of my colleague the Hon. R. B. Rowland Smith. To my knowledge, the Hon. R. B. Rowland Smith was the only person who served in the World War II who spoke on that occasion. More important, he was a navy man. Like the hero, or villain perhaps, of Rolf Boldrewood's famous novel, I am a "Sydney-side native". I grew up in the shadow of HMAS Watson. For those who knew the harbourscape of those years, the boom across from Langs Point, shielded our harbour; a number of installations were located in Watsons Bay and Vaucluse Bay where ships were moored, ships that reflected not only the conflict of the Great War but naval history. HMAS Platypus, known lovingly to sailors as "Old Plat" was tied up in Watsons Bay for many years afterwards. It would be almost impossible for one to grow up in that atmosphere without a great regard for the navy and all those who served during those dark years of World War II as well as in other conflicts.

I came to know a number of sailors who, for one reason or another, were spending some time at HMAS Watson because they were billeted out to families who were prepared to extend hospitality to them while they were away from their home cities and towns. There was a community network of support, including the CENEF canteen that was run in the parish hall of St Peters, in its prominent position at South Head. One particular sailor often used to return in his summer holidays to visit our family. I was greatly influenced in my younger years by that man, who rose to no higher rank than able seaman, though he served throughout the entire period of the war. He certainly epitomised the ordinary man who had answered his country's call and sought not to be a leader but one who served.

I grew up with a great admiration for the navy and, to a degree, was steeped in some of its traditions. At school I spent some time in the naval cadets and then, for the time that it was possible to do so, as a university student I offered my service to the Royal Australian Naval Reserve. That was a period of my life which I treasure greatly. It was a period of service to country, in that very peculiar way that the armed services demand of those who come to give that service. One very significant day in my life was 11 November 1993 when that two minutes' silence was observed in Beijing airport by the New south Wales parliamentary delegation to China and the Ode to Remembrance recited. This created great interest among the people who were assembled at the airport.

As I reflect on the debate on the occasion when the Unknown Soldier was reverently brought back to Australia to be a memorial to heroism and a reminder of the futility of war and of the unending need to strive for peace, it occurs to me that we always use the paradigm of the soldier and perhaps forget that many people served in other services and in other capacities. It also occurs to me that the loss of HMAS Sydney was probably one of the most significant events in the naval history of this country, indeed, a very significant event in the war at sea in World Ware II and that in some way HMAS Sydney could serve as a memorial to those who served in the navy.

It is not often the case that sailors who lost their lives were unknown. They were recorded in the list of ship's company. If they were not present at some later roll call, it was assumed that they were lost at sea. The sad thing for so many of their families, their parents, brothers and sisters, a grieving wife, was that the exact resting place was rarely known. I thought it significant that if HMAS Sydney could be located, that site could serve as a memorial to the unknown resting place of sailors who had lost their lives in service to their country Australia. HMAS Sydney is extremely significant in our naval history, and in the history of this country and its record of valour and service. The loss of that ship proved a turning point in the war similar, in many ways, to events at Gallipoli. When our soldiers in that particular expeditionary army left these shores they, and all Australians, felt secure in the strength of the Empire. They felt that the Royal Navy, together with the Commonwealth navies could secure the sea lanes and certainly protect the Pacific and Indian oceans.

Today we think of the loss of the Prince of Wales and the Repulse, the subsequent fall of Singapore and the invasion of Pearl Harbour as the events that marked the realisation by Australians that they must look elsewhere than Empire for their security and defence. But I suggest that the first tremor of that dreadful realisation of how exposed we were at that point of the war was the sinking of HMAS Sydney. I shall take a moment to review the illustrious history of the HMAS Sydney. The Royal Australian Navy had its foundation in 1911, an event commemorated by the arrival of the Fleet in 1913 depicted in the wonderful painting that hangs outside Page 142 this Chamber showing HMAS Australia leading the Australian flotilla into Sydney Harbour. In that retinue of ships was an HMAS Sydney. It is significant that this was immediately prior to the outbreak of the first world war.

Although it took some time for the land war to really get under way, naval engagements started from the commencement of hostilities. It was on 9 November 1914 that the cruiser HMAS Sydney was detached from the flotilla cruising in the Coral Sea and located the German raider Emden which having rebunkered, was heading to the Cocos or Keeling Islands to make a raid on a radio station, in what proved to be its final contribution to the war. We need to remember that the Emden, from the German point of view, was probably its most successful ship operating during that war. From one sad perception that ship destroyed 100,000 tons of Allied shipping before encountering HMAS Sydney. However, it is to be presumed that its commander, von Muller, prided himself that in all the engagements and despite all those ships being sunk there was scarcely a life lost. The crews were all recovered. Perhaps that was because ships were unprotected, offered no resistance, surrendered and then were sunk rather than sunk by gunfire.

One of the strange undertones of this war saga was the way in which, although it was conducted savagely, there were felt to be principles of war and combatants were expected to conduct themselves in gentlemanly fashion. This was so even though Emden, like the Kormoran, disguised herself, trying to look like an Allied ship, a British cruiser. Despite these nefarious activities, warlike acts, hostile proclivities with no holds barred, officers and crew felt there was a limit of behaviour to be observed. There were camaraderie and rules of war to be observed in engagements. This was part of the great controversy later, when people came to consider the Australian view of the subsequent sinking of the Sydney and the sinking of the Kormoran.

The sinking of the Emden is a remarkable story. I mentioned that the purpose of the ship's visit to the Cocos or Keeling Islands was to put ashore a boarding party to knock out the radio station. A man by the name of von Mucke had gone ashore and obviously had seen that the ship was lost. Intrepidly, he seized an old yacht, the Ayesha and - in a way almost emulating the extraordinary voyage to Batavia, an incredible feat of seamanship of Captain Bligh following the mutiny on the Bounty - sailed without detection from the Cocos Islands to Constantinople in Turkey. That says something about the standard of navigation in those days.

The first world war moved from the Pacific Ocean and the Indian Ocean. The battle of the Falkland Islands virtually concluded any hostility in the Indian Ocean. HMAS Australia, which was part of the Allied forces, did not take part in the Battle of Jutland, giving to HMAS Sydney the role of the most notable achievement and engagement of the Royal Australian Navy in the first world war. Following that overwhelming naval victory, if not decisive military victory, in the first world war, the Treaty of Versailles laid down very strict rules for disarmament in naval strength. Between the wars, the countries that were signatories to that treaty began to reduce their naval forces. The Royal Australian Navy, during the Depression, was run down to skeletal strength - 3,000-odd men.

Everyone knows the history of how, gradually, the clouds of war gathered again over Europe. The Commonwealth Government began to realise that it could not continue with its defences as unprepared as they were. HMS Phaeton, which had been laid down on 8 July 1933, was subsequently purchased by the Australian Government and renamed the HMAS Sydney. The ship was finally launched on 22 September 1934 by Mrs Ethel Bruce, the wife of the then Australian High Commissioner and former Prime Minister, Stanley Melbourne Bruce. At that stage the ship was state of the art; a fine vessel that could voyage across the world's oceans; highly technical, developed, for that stage of naval architecture; 7,000 tons, and with substantial propelling machinery, which meant that the ship could cruise at 20 knots and achieve speeds above 32 knots. There was tremendous confidence that this ship would make a substantial contribution if ever the integrity of Australia were challenged or if it was called upon to defend any part of the free world.

After proving trials, the ship sailed for Australia on 29 October 1935, commanded by Captain Fitzgerald of the Royal Navy. The First Lieutenant, now referred to as the Chief Executive Officer, was Commander Collins, who sailed from Portsmouth en route to Sydney. The ship was destined for active service, because on its way to Australia it was diverted during the Abyssinian crisis and was stationed in the Mediterranean with the second cruiser squadron. I could go into quite a story about the service undertaken during that period. The human side is that after well in excess of one year's service the ship came to port in Alexandria and the crew was given leave to try to rid the ship of mumps, which had plagued the crew, infecting one after another during the time the ship was in the Mediterranean. The continued service of the men is an example of the dedication to service that was expected in those days and offered freely by those who had accepted that obligation of service in the navy.

On 14 July 1936 the ship sailed for Australia and arrived in Sydney to great excitement and interest - a ship named after the premier port and most historic settlement in Australia. In March 1938 sister ships were purchased - Apollo and Amphion, renamed Hobart and Perth. In this saga of naval history we remember the tragic loss of Perth. Another ship we might remember is Hobart, which spent her last years in Athol Bight alongside HMAS Shropshire and other ships in that period between the second world war and the decision to adopt new technology. The ships were held in reserve, in that euphemistic term, "in mothballs", and were part of the landscape of Sydney Harbour for a long time.

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When HMAS Sydney arrived in Australia, Captain Fitzgerald was relieved of his command. Captain Waller took command just prior to the war. Significantly, at that stage he reported his grave concern about the vulnerability of the ship's fire control system. He believed that the electrical cabling system was insufficiently duplicated and would mean that a single hit in a particular place would break the ship's cable system and leave her main armament dependent upon manual control. Ultimately, it was one of the things that became decisive in the engagement which subsequently took place. But before that happened, sadly, the matter went backwards and forwards without any action. Consideration was given, reports were made, but before anyone had evaluated the matter fully, war broke out. Because of successful active service in the early parts of the war, a reputation developed around HMAS Sydney that she was invincible. This tended to put on the back burner any reports about shortcomings of this relatively new class of ship. People felt that HMAS Sydney was, in every way, fit for active service.

On 22 July 1939 she took up her station in Fremantle in anticipation of the outbreak of war. War was declared on 3 September 1939. In October of that year the Commonwealth Government agreed that HMAS Sydney could be seconded for duty in the Mediterranean. It did not happen immediately. It is interesting to reflect on the strategic decisions made at that time. At that stage Japan was a neutral country. Submarine warfare that had opened up in the Atlantic and the combination of submarine and fierce air bombardment of convoys in the Mediterranean suggested to the Imperial War Cabinet that as long as Japan remained neutral ships of the weight and strength of HMAS Sydney would best be deployed in the Mediterranean.

Those were the circumstances in which HMAS Sydney was able to enter into the theatre of war and achieve the greatness which she did in those early years of the war. She travelled with HMAS Stewart and the four destroyers which are affectionately known as "Vee and Dubs". Honourable members who have read that wonderful book of Ion Idriess about the senior service will recall his description of those veteran ships and the wonderful service they performed in the Mediterranean. Others will remember them particularly because they made up what Dr Goebbels so scathingly described as the scrap iron contribution Australia sent over to join the war effort in Europe. From then on those ships, including HMAS Sydney, were known as the scrap iron flotilla.

It is interesting to note that HMAS Sydney, before leaving for the Mediterranean, was diverted to search with the heavy ships of the Australian navy, the HMAS Australia and HMAS Canberra, to look for one of the raiders - the pocket battleship - Admiral Von Graf Spee, which had been a significant element of the offensive in the Atlantic. It was suspected that that ship had come around the bottom of South America, had gone into the Indian Ocean and was likely to be operating in that area. With the hindsight of history, that proved to be untrue. But certainly the search was scrupulous. After a refit in Sydney following that tour of duty, HMAS Sydney left in, I think, January 1940 to join US1, the first ANZAC convoy, and headed across to the Middle East.

The ship Canberra and the Royal Navy battleships Ramillies and Leander joined that convoy on its way over. It must have been a poignant moment for the sailors who realised they were leaving home waters and it could not be taken for granted that they would return. In those days many of the rendezvous were in the Great Australian Bight round to Albany, or perhaps Fremantle roads. In April and May 1940 HMAS Sydney was engaged, with US2, in further convoy duty, the second convoy taking Australian troops over. On 8 May HMAS Sydney was ordered to Colombo. She then transferred to the Mediterranean theatre to carry out the commitments made by the Australian Government to make a cruiser available to join the seven cruiser squadron in the Mediterranean.

I hope what I have to say does not distress the Hon. Franca Arena, but history shows that the presence of Sydney and that cruiser squadron was to counter the perceived threat at that stage of Italy entering the war on the side of the axis. It was known that Italy had substantial naval units in the Mediterranean. The allies were determined to try to maintain the trade routes through the Mediterranean. HMAS Sydney was required to join that effort. Sadly, hostilities against Italy were declared on 10 June 1940. At that stage Sydney was in Alexandria harbour with the flotilla - the rest of the grand old scrap iron flotilla - which was ready to meet whatever was thrown at it. HMAS Sydney took part in a number of engagements - including the bombardment of Bardia - a lot of convoy duty and one engagement with a destroyer, the Espero, which I think is worth noting. When it was obvious that there were survivors in the water the main ship simply could not stop because of the risk of submarine activity. Captain Collins ensured that a cutter from Sydney was lowered to provide comfort and help to the survivors of the Espero. He said:

It was felt that the company of a ship that had put up such a gallant defence deserved every chance of survival, even at the expense of losing one cutter.

We cannot help thinking of those words and the fine spirit of that fighting captain when we remember the dreadful fate that befell Sydney on 19 November. She was lost with all hands. Probably more widely known were the subsequent battles which are known as the Battle of Calabria and the Battle of Cape Spada, where HMAS Sydney developed a reputation. She, with Havoc and other ships such as the Hyperion, engaged the Bartolomeo Calleoni and the Giovanni delle Bande Nere. We all know that that resulted, tragically, in the loss of the Calleoni and the departure of Italian forces from the Mediterranean. After all these engagements, in which Sydney had come through virtually unscathed, it was reported that she had had hardly a scratch to her brightwork. As I said earlier, it was thought that, somehow or other, the ship was invincible.

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There was tremendous pride in the efficiency of the ship's company and a feeling that she was a fighting ship, with the men united and dedicated in the grim purpose that they set about to achieve - the struggle against totalitarianism. After this tour of duty in the Mediterranean the ship returned to Australia. Tragically, her commander, subsequently Admiral Collins, relinquished command at the end of April 1941. He was replaced by Captain Joseph Burnett, who took command on 15 May. I will refer later to Captain Burnett. I mentioned him especially in my motion and I believe it is appropriate to say something about this man later as it would be easy for history to turn the page on his career and, because of the absence of any detailed information about what happened, not to recognise what a great career he had in the Navy and what a fine officer he was.

The pace of the whole drama quickens at this stage. HMAS Sydney was engaged in four weeks of convoy duty in the Indian Ocean. On 2 July she sailed into the Pacific Ocean with a convoy before returning to Sydney and docking for repairs. On 8 August she left on another tour of duty escorting the Auatea to Auckland and on to Suva. At the end of August she returned to Sydney. She then commenced on what I believe could be seen as something of a fateful voyage - escorting the convoy US12A, which included those wonderful ships Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth, from Jervis Bay. She and the HMAS Canberra rendezvoused in the Great Australian Bight. The ships split up but travelled on to theatres of war across the seas.

At the end of September HMAS Sydney was back in Fremantle, again on convoy duty and meeting ships in the Great Australian Bight, on this occasion the convoy US12B. Meanwhile, during this period the Zealandia was embarking units of the 8th Division, reinforcements and also some air force personnel who were to travel across to Singapore. The Zealandia sailed from Port Jackson bound for Singapore and was originally escorted from Sydney by HMAS Adelaide but was met by HMAS Sydney in the Great Australian Bight and proceeded from there to a rendezvous in the Sunda Strait where the escort duties of Zealandia were handed over to HMS Durban and then HMAS Sydney turned and was expected back in Fremantle on 20 November.

One can imagine the atmosphere on Sydney as she began her journey home and, after getting to within the Fremantle roads, the feeling of its crew about arriving home, another successful round of duty completed, the ship unscathed in any way, although there would have been that ever present anxiety about what the future held. The ship must have been steaming along and there would have been a great feeling of well-being and confidence among its crew. On the afternoon of 19 November an unidentified merchant ship was sighted on the horizon. This turned out to be the fatal meeting with the ship Kormoran. The Kormoran also has an extraordinary story. It was one of the ships that the Germans had adapted at the outbreak of World War II as disguised merchant ships, because they realised that they had limited capacity to wage a war at sea and that their emphasis would be either on the raiders, about which they had learned from their experiences in World War I, or submarine warfare. They certainly put a great deal of faith in the capacity of the armed merchant cruisers to disturb the sea lanes, commerce and traffic, as well as occasionally being successful in an engagement with a fighting ship.

The role of those ships was mainly in the interruption of commercial traffic. The Kormoran was a modern ship of approximately 9,500 tons, well fitted out, certainly not capable of steaming at the speed that could be achieved by HMAS Sydney, but remarkable having regard to the way in which the ships were converted to enable them to remain at sea for a great length of time without requiring either provisioning or bunkering to continue their activities. I recall reading on another occasion about the ship Altmark, which had been at sea continuously for 18 months, undertook a complete refit of its engines, shut down its engines out in the ocean for practically a month, had its motors completely refitted and steamed on without being detected. That makes one realise how different the circumstances were at that time, when one has regard to what happened more recently in the Falkland Islands engagement, when everything was seen by the use of earth satellites, and the guidance of weapon systems such as Exocets seemed to be developed to a degree that was surpassed only by the horrors of Desert Storm, where it almost seemed possible to fire a rocket through a keyhole into a building.

At that time naval warfare was very much a cat and mouse game, a matter of remaining undetected, navigating the ship around the oceans of the world trying to carry out duties and not knowing what was just over the horizon. Kormoran had gone to sea a little more than 12 months beforehand. She had been able to slip out past the blockade of all the German ports and had gone into the North Atlantic Ocean, travelling around Greenland to escape detection. She then came down and arrived eventually in the Indian Ocean in that fateful year of 1941. The role of these ships was also extremely dangerous. Captain Detmers, who was the commander of Kormoran, had exercised his role as commander skilfully to keep the ship from detection and destruction. By the time Sydney and Kormoran met, the role of the raider was fast coming to a close. He had spent a number of months fruitlessly searching the Indian Ocean and only out of sheer frustration headed across to the Western Australian coast believing that he simply had to come in contact with allied shipping, which by that stage was much better organised in convoys and with escorts.

It was a fateful meeting of these two men. Detmers had tried to model his career on the Emden and its exploits, which were held in such high regard by the German people, and had wanted to establish himself as the most successful raider captain. He had been responsible for sinking a tremendous tonnage of shipping in circumstances somewhat less gallant than those of his predecessor in World War I. Page 145 Nevertheless, where possible he endeavoured to give an opportunity to the crew to abandon the ship before it was sunk. That should be acknowledged in any judgment that is brought against him after the events that took place. As I mentioned earlier, it was on 19 November 1941 that these two ships sighted each other. It seems almost inexplicable at this stage that, after a period of manoeuvring, the two ships came very close together.

We have absolutely no record or perspective of this action from the Australian point of view, because tragically the whole of the ship's company - all 645 - disappeared without trace on that night. From the edited and analysed accounts of the survivors of Kormoran, of which there were approximately 300, it is agreed generally that, for reasons that are difficult to determine, the captain brought Sydney within a range of approximately one mile of Kormoran, without having been able to identify which ship it was, believing from the insignia and the way in which she was disguised that she was a Dutch ship, the Straat Malakka. Whether that was the explanation for what happened - the other explanation that has been offered is that Burnett believed she was only the supply ship working with one of the more conventional raiders that the Germans had operating during World War II and therefore he wanted to capture the ship before it warned the other major ship in the area - no one will ever know.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. Nile: There may have been prisoners on board.

The Hon. D. F. MOPPETT: He was concerned about the welfare of prisoners, and there were indeed prisoners on board. He could have been concerned about their welfare. Whatever actually happened, I do not believe that there is any doubt that HMAS Sydney got within a range that allowed the Kormoran to take the first action. In the extraordinary way in which these things can occur, the first shots fired, even from small calibre weapons, rendered HMAS Sydney at a great disadvantage. The personnel on the bridge were immediately wounded. The first salvo from the heavy guns knocked out the main armament of HMAS Sydney, and a torpedo which had been launched from underwater critically damaged the ship.

There will always be a great deal of conjecture about the circumstances or whether, in fact, the captain of the Kormoran observed the protocol and lowered the Dutch flag and ran up the German flag before firing the first shot. No doubt at the time that was a matter of hot conjecture and I am sure Captain Detmers was conscious of the possibility that he might face a court-martial at some later stage. I am sure he did the best he could to ensure that in the absence of any challenge from Australian witnesses his story was as sound as possible and that his reputation as a sea captain in later years would remain untarnished.

Today all that is irrelevant. There are almost no holds barred when one goes to war. It is hard to justify the action of someone who is killing someone else when obeying a certain set of arbitrary rules if it was immoral in the first place. I do not believe that the action undertaken by the allies was immoral; we can stand proud for our part in the second world war. I believe the whole course of civilisation would have been dismal if Australia had not participated. But there is little profit to be gained in trying to attach blame. It is sad that lives were lost on both ships, but it was a particularly bitter blow for Australians that the ship should disappear with all hands lost.

The catastrophic loss of HMAS Sydney was not unique, but what has generated speculation and mystery is that virtually no trace of the ship was found: no oil slick nor debris usually associated with the loss of a ship was sighted. Usually something floats to the surface, such as wood, hammocks, clothing or bodies, but sadly nothing of that nature was found. Indeed, the only objects recovered after searching were the two lifebelts and the carley float. However, those articles could not be identified without doubt as coming from HMAS Sydney and, in fact, could have come from any ship and could have been floating around the Indian Ocean.

That should be borne in mind when one considers the largely debunked explanation that the ship was set upon by a submarine, as well as by the Kormoran, that the survivors were machine-gunned in the water, and some effort was made to clean up the debris. In my view that is an implausible explanation. It is contingent on the idea that Japanese submarines were operating in the area prior to the outbreak of hostilities and, from the chronology, leads onto the fateful events in which Japan became involved in the second world war. Though that explanation might have had sensational appeal at the time, careful examination of naval and other records would suggest that it is unlikely that a submarine was involved or that the Kormoran was trying to rendezvous with a submarine or any unit of the Japanese navy. That is the conclusion I have reached.

One of the sad things about the aftermath of the disappearance of HMAS Sydney and speculation about its whereabouts has been the genesis of rumour and specious efforts at explanation. The saddest one was the production many years later of a letter of proceedings, duly soaked in saltwater for ages to try to give the document the appearance of authenticity. It was purported to be written by a Lieutenant Elder. It described the entire engagement and concluded with the entry that the ship had been able to secure the damage and was proceeding, albeit under limited propelling capacity, towards Fremantle. That letter of proceedings was later proved to be without substance and we are left with the mystery that the ship simply disappeared without trace, either that night or shortly thereafter.

The only other indications are from the German survivors. Their own ship was stricken and they had abandoned ship. From their position they observed the HMAS Sydney, still under way but nevertheless disappearing, on fire, over the horizon in a generally southwesterly direction. However, they were not able specifically to locate where the ship may have sunk. Page 146 Before concluding I wish to speak about Captain Burnett. Any review of this man's naval career would lead one to admire the man and his training in both the Royal Navy and the Royal Australian Navy. Whatever the explanation for his actions on that day, I am sure he believed that under the circumstances it was in the best interests of the prisoners or in the pursuit of his duty to fight against the enemy.

I cannot believe reports that Captain Detmers sought to engender, namely, that HMAS Sydney was in a state of great relaxation, that those on the German ship observed off-watch stokers and stewards lining the decks, waving and so on. I do not believe that is possible when one considers the career of Captain Burnett. It is my view that the ship was in a high state of readiness and efficiency. From the moment the identified ship was sighted, HMAS Sydney proceeded, though tempered by judgment of circumstances, in a way that took cognisance of the code of practice that was laid down. Captain Burnett contributed to that code of practice from observations he had made of other encounters with raiders. He urged great caution on approaching those ships until positive identification could be made.

The careers of those two captains will always be surrounded by speculation and comment. However, it is time to put those matters aside and to remember that those serving on the ship set out with the same courage and determination to serve their country as soldiers in the first world war did - those who are represented by the Unknown Soldier. They all deserve to be remembered with respect and reverence. It would be of great satisfaction to many people if the final resting place of the HMAS Sydney could be ascertained. I felt it was necessary to move this motion because in recent times it has become apparent to me - and, I am sure, to all honourable members - that over the past decade the technology for finding wrecks has greatly improved. It has led to the spectacular location of the Titanic in an incredible depth of water, despite the difficulties involved.

We have all been amazed at the filming of the Titanic that has been achieved and the way the final resting place of its pieces have been diagrammatically set out. Also, a recent explanation has added an extra dimension. Rather than the old explanation that there was a gash from almost the bow to the stern cut by the iceberg, I prefer the recent explanation that, as the water entered and flooded a few compartments, the strain split the steel plates and the ship foundered. Though it was not recognised by the engineers, builders or anyone else, the material proved to be inadequate to carry the loads to which it was subjected on that occasion. That degree of finality regarding the Titanic has been of satisfaction to all who are concerned with maritime history. The discovery of the Bismarck was also a remarkable find.

The Hon. Ann Symonds: My great-uncle went down in the Titanic.

The Hon. D. F. MOPPETT: I am most interested to hear that. These matters are very much matters of sentiment, though the Titanic was a ship of the United Kingdom. Many years ago the city of Broken Hill, which has always had many musicians and has been proud of its town band, erected a memorial to the band of RMS Titanic and records that well-known story of how the band, realising that there was limited capacity to save the passengers and crew, remained and continued to play music across that eerie scene and carried out those wonderful traditions that we associate with gallantry at sea. A remarkable piece of marine research was involved in locating the Bismarck. It has been decided, quite correctly, that no disturbance should be permitted. In some of the compartments the remains of sailors who had gone down in the ship were noticed by camera operators. I am sure that will be the case if the Sydney is found.

No one wants people to dive in the area of the Sydney when it is found; it will rest on the seabed. It would be satisfying to know where the ship is, and it is within the capacity of modern technology to find the ship. I commend the Sydney research group and the Western Australian maritime museum. There has been a tremendous demand on their resources because the number of wrecks on the Western Australian coast that are of historical significance is almost mind boggling. They have carried out a wonderful job. Western Australia is particularly interested in the development of exploration and the role played by those ships, many of them sailing ships.

It is up to the Commonwealth to take some responsibility to recognise that HMAS Sydney is symbolic to the whole nation and that the people of New South Wales, and particularly the city of Sydney, would be pleased if the search could be brought to a successful conclusion. I am confident that this can occur if we have the support, not only in financial terms but in technical terms, of the Federal Government. I thank honourable members for the way in which they have received this motion this afternoon. I look forward to contributions from other members.

The Hon. R. B. ROWLAND SMITH [4.3]: It gives me great pleasure to support the motion moved by the Hon. D. F. Moppett and to congratulate him on moving the motion. It is historic, and it is controversial. To my knowledge, three books have been written about HMAS Sydney - Tom Frame's book, Loss and Controversy; a book by Barbara Winter; and I cannot think of the third book. Having read the two books I have mentioned, I am aware that controversy exists: one person thinks this and another thinks that. It has been suggested that a Japanese submarine was lurking in the area and finished off the Sydney. I had the pleasure of serving in the Royal Australian Navy from December 1943 to 1947. As an ex-naval man, I had pride in my ship. The Sydney was a ship of 6,500 to 7,000 tons; the ship on which I served was 670 tons. There was quite a difference.

The Hon. Franca Arena: It was a rowing boat.

The Hon. R. B. ROWLAND SMITH: No. Full steam ahead, we used to rattle at 15 knots. The Sydney reached about 32 knots. Nevertheless, we Page 147 were very proud of our ship. HMAS Sydney was a beautiful ship, she was beautifully designed, a Leander class cruiser; she had everything going for her. It is a tragedy when a ship is sunk, whether it is in our navy, the enemy's navy or it is a merchant ship. During the second world war hundreds of ships were sunk around the world. I recall vividly before I entered the service - in fact, I guess I was still at school - the sinking of the Repulse and the Prince of Wales in the Java Strait. It was terrible. Unfortunately, due to a technical error, the ships had no aerial cover and Japanese bombers were able to come out at 80 knots with torpedos and sink those two battleships.

The Hon. D. F. Moppett had some kind words to say about me, for which I thank him. He mentioned that he grew up near HMAS Watson, and he referred to the boom. There were two entries - the eastern entry, which was the exit area, and the western entry into the harbour. One Saturday afternoon I was navigator of the HMAS Kalgoorlie. We had been away for three or four months. The harbour was literally flooded with sailing boats. The old set form was that steam must give way to sail. I was on the bridge and I was altering course one way and another to avoid the sailboats when my skipper ran on to the bridge and said, "What the hell are you doing?" I said, "Sir, I am trying to evade these sailing boats". He said, "Go through the bastards". So I did as I was told. Many sailing people on the harbour screamed abuse at us.

The Hon. D. F. Moppett has given an excellent account of what led up to the fatal sinking of the Sydney. He mentioned the three ships that were commissioned close to each other - the Hobart, the Perth and the Sydney. I recall vividly that the Hobart's bow was shot off and she must have come halfway across the Pacific Ocean stern first. Captain Harry Howden was the captain of that ship. I recall him telling us exactly how he managed to get the ship back here. The displacement of the Hobart was 7,000 tons, the Perth was 6,980 tons and the Sydney was 6,830. The dimensions were 555 feet, the beams 56.8 feet and the draughts 19.6 feet. I am not referring to beer when I refer to draughts. The machinery consisted of Parsons geared turbines, which made one hell of a noise, four Admiralty three-drum boilers, four screws, 72,000 s.h.p. The speed of those three ships was 32.5 knots, which was fast in those days.

Today in the American navy the latest submarines can travel under water at speeds of 40 knots. One can imagine how far technology has advanced. Manning of the three vessels totalled 685 and 615 men went down in the HMAS Sydney - more than the number of Australian fatalities in Vietnam. In July 1940 HMAS Sydney was under the command of Captain John Collins, who later became Vice-Admiral Sir John Collins - well-known and remembered by the new Collins submarines being built in Adelaide that should have been built in Newcastle.

Captain Burnett took over the command of HMAS Sydney. Its greatest success was the crippling of the Italian cruiser Bartolomeo Calleoni in the Battle of Cape Spada. As I recall it, the first HMAS Sydney was in the Boer War. In World War I HMAS Sydney was famous for the sinking of the German cruiser Emden, and I have mentioned what happened to the HMAS Sydney during the second world war. HMAS Sydney is now a guided missile frigate that served gallantly in the Gulf War under the command of Captain Bill Dovers, a young man who grew up with my eldest son. His father was my first lieutenant at the officers training school. He later became a lieutenant and subsequently became Vice-Admiral William Dovers.

I should pay tribute to Captain Burnett. He was born in Singleton in New South Wales on 26 December 1899. He was selected for entry to the Royal Australian Naval College in 1913 and graduated in 1917. He joined the battle cruiser HMAS Australia in the United Kingdom later that year and served until the cessation of hostilities. He was promoted to lieutenant in 1920 and qualified as gunnery officer at Whale Island. Burnett later served in HMAS Adelaide and HMAS Canberra and in the destroyer HMS Wallace as squadron gunnery officer.

On completion of the naval staff course at the Royal Naval College, Greenwich, England, he was promoted to commander and appointed to staff duties at the navy office in Melbourne. In 1937 he joined the battleship HMS Royal Oak as executive officer. He took part in operations during the Spanish Civil War and in the Munich crisis. He was the third graduate of the Royal Australian Naval College to reach the rank of captain when promoted in 1938. As I have said, he took over the command of HMAS Sydney from Captain Collins. Admiral Sir Ragnar Colvin, a former chief of naval staff and first member of the Australian Naval Board, wrote the following comment on Captains Burnett, Collins and Waller after the loss of HMAS Sydney, which appeared in the London Times and sums up the situation:

No finer sailors ever trod deck. To one who has known them there was something out of the ordinary about these sailors of the R.A.N.

Debate adjourned on motion by the Hon. R. B. Rowland Smith.

SPECIAL ADJOURNMENT

Motion by the Hon. J. P. Hannaford agreed to:

That this House at its rising today do adjourn until Tuesday 8 March 1994 at 2.30 p.m.

REGULATION REVIEW COMMITTEE

Twenty-fourth Report: Report upon Regulations

The Hon. S. B. Mutch, on behalf of the Chairman, brought up Report No. 24 entitled "Report upon Regulations" dated March 1994.

Ordered to be printed.

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The PRESIDENT: Order! It being 4.15 p.m., pursuant to sessional orders debate is interrupted to permit the Minister to move the adjournment of the House should he so desire.

GOVERNOR'S SPEECH: ADDRESS IN REPLY

Second Day's Debate

Debate resumed from 2 March.

The Hon. FRANCA ARENA [4.17]: Propaganda about the success of the Government has been so rife that if we did not have the facts and figures in front of us, we might end up believing the lies that are bandied around. As Bob Carr said, Premier Fahey has failed as Minister for Economic Development to attract vital investments to New South Wales. New South Wales is the only State in which the amount of private investment fell last year. Private investors have no confidence in the Government despite all the rhetoric, the Olympic coverage and so on. Why is that so? Because our State remains the highest taxed and most overregulated. Naturally, private investors will continue to be discouraged.

In the year to September 1993 investment in New South Wales shrank while it grew by 13 per cent in Victoria, by more than 30 per cent in Western Australia and by 9.5 per cent in Australia as a whole, according to the latest date from the Australian Bureau of Statistics. Mr Fahey must refocus on the real issues affecting New South Wales: investment, growth and jobs. If New South Wales is to capitalise on the national economic recovery, it must attract its fair share of investments. Let us look at the figures that make it clear why this State is behind other States. In the past 12 months to November 1993 Australian retail sales trade increased by 4.4 per cent, which is twice the New South Wales rate of 1.75 per cent.

The Hon. L. D. W. Coleman: That is a legacy from the Wran days.

The Hon. FRANCA ARENA: The Hon. L. D. W. Coleman is indulging in wishful thinking. In the year to November 1993 New South Wales had the smallest mainland increase in job vacancies at 21.1 per cent, around half the 39.3 per cent increase for Australia as a whole. In the year to November 1993 the total number of dwelling units approved in New South Wales fell by 5.5 per cent, while Australia as a whole increased over the same period by 5.1 per cent. If New South Wales continues to be the last State out of recession, it risks a permanent addition to its pool of long-term unemployed. What is the Government doing? Little or nothing. Let us look at some of the young people needing not only work but also the skills to get a job. The Governor in his Speech on page 2 of Hansard said:

My Government is committed to further reform of the vocational education and training system. A sound education and training system is a necessary foundation to improving the employment prospects of young people.

Proposed reforms include improvements to apprenticeships and traineeships, expansion of employment-based training options, the application of national competency standards, and resource development to enhance the quality of employment based training.

Those words warm one's heart, but what further reforms is the Government talking about? On paper the Government has a policy that requires government departments to employ one apprentice to every four tradespeople. But it is a policy that looks good only on paper. It is not being implemented. Young people in New South Wales are not given a chance to learn a trade. Let me give the House one example. The Public Works Department has only four apprentices to more than 80 tradespeople on the Nepean Hospital site. According to government policy, there should be 16 apprentices. It is not much use crying about youth unemployment when the Government disregards opportunities for young people.

From 1989 to 1990 apprenticeship commencement in New South Wales declined steadily. In 1989-1990 there were 19,398 apprenticeships; in 1990-91, 15,146 apprenticeships; in 1991-92, 12,986 apprenticeships; and in 1992-93, 13,373 apprenticeships. These are the opportunities young people in our community are being given, but it is not good enough. The performance of the Government in this area, as in many other areas, is appalling. I wish now to deal with ethnic affairs. Whenever possible the Labor Party endeavours to have a bipartisan policy, but a few questions need to be asked of the Minister for Multicultural and Ethnic Affairs, the Hon. Michael Photios. The Governor, in the law and justice section of his Speech, said:

Legislation will be introduced to prohibit discrimination on the grounds of mental illness and HIV status. This will further enhance the rights of people with disabilities. Penalties for racial vilification which incites violence against particular ethnic groups will be increased and the racial vilification provisions will be extended to cover ethno-religious groups.

I was surprised by that statement, even though it comes from a review of the Anti-Discrimination (Racial Vilification) Amendment Act instituted by the Government, carried out by my esteemed colleague the Hon. J. M. Samios. I wonder - and the Hon. J. M. Samios might address this aspect when he contributes to the Address in Reply - about the wisdom of increasing penalties for racial vilification when, under section 20D of the Act, racial vilification carries 10 penalty points, or six months' imprisonment, or both if proved against an individual, or more severe penalties for a corporation. The Government says it will increase the penalties, but there has never been a prosecution under the Act. People have always preferred to conciliate the matter brought to the attention of the Anti-Discrimination Board. Why do the penalties have to be increased when the current provisions have not been tested? It is bizarre.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. Nile: Consultation is better than imprisonment.

The Hon. FRANCA ARENA: I agree entirely. I do not understand why the Government is increasing the penalties. However, I support legislation to be introduced to prohibit discrimination on the grounds Page 149 of mental health and HIV status. It is rightly said by the Government that the legislation will enhance the rights of people with disabilities. I support also the extension of racial vilification provisions to cover ethno-religious groups, thus legislating and making watertight policy decisions that the Anti-Discrimination Board has always held, that is, that groups such as Jews, gypsies and Sikhs, will be covered by that legislation. The policy of the Anti-Discrimination Board has always been to include those groups, but the policy was challenged recently in the Equal Employment Opportunity Tribunal. It is important, therefore, that the policy of the Anti-Discrimination Board be given a proper legislative basis. The Governor also mentioned the charter of principles launched in March 1993 for a culturally diverse society. He said:

The Charter of Principles launched in March 1993 marks the commitment of the Government to New South Wales' culturally diverse society. My Government took a further positive step in recognising the value of this diversity by establishing the portfolio of Multicultural and Ethnic Affairs in May 1993. During 1994 the Government will develop strategies and initiatives to pursue the implementation of the Charter across all portfolios.

That has been the charter for 12 months. Last year the Labor Party was told that the charter was not just a motherhood statement but an effective statement for Australians of non-English speaking background in this State and that the supporting documents would be issued to support its implementation. But where are the documents? What has been done this year? Twelve whole months have passed, but I am still waiting to hear from the Government, as are the ethnic communities of the State. I might say the same thing about the ethnic affairs policy statements, which were mentioned not in the Governor's Speech but in the 1992-93 annual report of the Ethnic Affairs Commission of New South Wales. Page 14 of that report states:

The EAPS Program was the forerunner of the Charter -

I hope the charter will not end up as disastrously as the EAPS program:

- and since its introduction nine years ago has been successfully integrated into all public sector organisational policies. The success of EAPS created the opportunity for government to formalise its commitment to multiculturalism through the Charter, without affecting the relevancy of EAPS strategies but rather, building on it.

I have never seen such blatant lies. The EAPS program has been an absolute sham, a disaster. I issued a press release in November 1992 after the Estimates Committee's Question and Answer Paper which proved that the Ethnic Affairs policy programs in New South Wales were an absolute sham. Most government departments had not complied with the EAPS statement. If they had, they had complied late and half the programs have been rejected by the Ethnic Affairs Commission. For the report to call it a program of great success is an absolutely blatant lie. I am surprised that the Ethnic Affairs Commission would put such a blatant lie in its report. Does the Minister for Multicultural and Ethnic Affairs, the Hon. Michael Photios, believe it is appropriate to attend ethnic functions and distribute grants like confetti? Are the cheques which he is so fond of distributing at ethnic functions being issued by the Ethnic Affairs Commission after a proper examination and evaluation of submissions, or is he using a big whiteboard? These questions must be taken seriously and we need answers to them.

[Interruption]

Whiteboards are not acceptable to Federal or State governments. I can think of two instances when the Minister has given money as if it were his own. On the spur of the moment $15,000 was given to the Laotian community. The Minister, who attended the function, was told, "We need $15,000". He said, "You have it". I am happy for the Laotian community, which is a hard-working, small community which does not receive much funding, but that is not the right way for a Minister to behave. Two Sundays ago I was at the Italian Festival of St John the Baptist at which a grant of $3,000 was given by the Minister. Both organisations are very worthy and I am not disputing that the grants might have been warranted. I am only asking the Minister whether the Ethnic Affairs Commission evaluates submissions for grants. If it does, that should be reflected in its annual report. The Minister should not give cheques or promise grants on the spur of the moment. It is not the right behaviour for a Minister.

Let me give another example in the area of ethnic affairs - the matter concerning overseas qualifications. In the Italian newspaper La Fiamma dated 17 January 1994 an article appeared on the page devoted to young Italo-Australians. It is the only page of the paper which was printed in English. The article stated:

Overseas qualified professionals - an underutilised resource.

The State Government has established an interdepartmental taskforce to recover some of Australia's $250 million annual productivity losses caused by the lack of recognition and underutilisation of migrant's skills and qualifications.

How can the Government set up an interdepartmental committee to recover an amount of money which was never there - money which it is calculated has been a cost to Australia because we do not recognise the qualifications of migrants? It is all too much. The Minister must either change his press officer or move to another portfolio. This kind of propaganda does him a lot of damage. The non-recognition by Australia of overseas qualifications is an old chestnut. It was raised and well documented in 1977 when the first report on ethnic affairs was published. Since 1977 we have had report after report. We know what the problem is. We know that it is due mainly to the professional bodies that do not want to recognise these people.

The Hon. M. R. Egan: They are protecting their own monopolies.

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The Hon. FRANCA ARENA: Exactly. The Minister is establishing an interdepartmental task force to recover some of the $250 million annual productivity loss. Where will he get it? It is ridiculous! I would like to bring to the attention of the House and the Minister another matter. The charter of principles is completely ignored by his ministerial colleagues. Let me give an example. Recently, the Minister for Community Services, the Hon. Jim Longley, set up a selection committee for the appointment of a community service review council, a commissioner for community services and a selection committee. Not one person from a non-English speaking background with any knowledge of ethnic communities was appointed to those bodies. I am sure that would concern the Hon. J. M. Samios, as I know he is sincere when dealing with these problems. I have a list of questions and answers which were put on notice by the Ethnic Communities Council of New South Wales. The document states:

I refer to the questions you raised at the CAMA Implementation Advisory Committee meeting held on 21 December 1993.

You expressed concern, on behalf of the ECC, that no member of the Selection Committee for Ministerial appointments to the Community Services Review Council was of non-English speaking background.

The list contains the names of Mr Roger West, the convenor; Mr Ken Jarvis, chief executive officer of the Sydney City Mission; Mr Sam Maher; Mr Adrian Ford and Ms Bronwyn Moye. Not one of these people represents the ethnic community. The same applies to the review council. Not one person from a non-English speaking background has been appointed to that council. Ministerial appointees to the Community Service Review Tribunal are as follows: Mr Bruce Alcorn from the Spastic Centre, Mr Bruce Mercer from Gunnedah-Oxley Community Options Inc., Ms Marie Brooks, Mr David Foote, Mr Michael Hogan and Ms Josephine Marnie. Not one of those people who were appointed to the tribunal was from a non-English speaking background. The document continues:

What is the experience and commitment of the above appointees in respect to Multicultural and Ethnic Affairs, in particular what experience have such appointees had in working with Ethnic communities?

The answer that was supplied is that they have no expertise. Not one of them is well-known for having expertise in that area. It is really sad. This question and answers paper goes on for pages. I will be happy to make it available to the Hon. J. M. Samios.

The Hon. J. M. Samios: Minister Photios has taken initiatives to encourage his ministerial colleagues in that regard.

The Hon. FRANCA ARENA: I am happy to hear that from the Hon. J. M. Samios. Last December Minister Jim Longley established a review council, a commissioner for community services, an appeal tribunals and a council. Not one person from a non-English speaking background was appointed to those bodies. It is something people are quite upset about. It is a sham and a disgrace that Ministers are ignoring Government policy. The Hon. J. M. Samios would know that this is an old chestnut. When the Labor Party was in Government not so many things were different. "Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose", say the French people.

I would now like to refer to the Ethnos magazine, which is published by the Ethnic Affairs Commission. The Ethnic Affairs Commission is a statutory authority; it should not be an arm of government. The first page of the Ethnos magazine is headed, "The historical first-ever gathering of elected local government legislators of migrant background". That historical gathering was held in this Chamber. The Leader of the Opposition, Bob Carr, was invited to this important meeting, at which he spoke. There was no mention of his name in the article in Ethnos. Mention was made of the Minister, the Hon. J. M. Samios and Mr Kerkyasharian, but there was no mention of the Leader of the Opposition. It was not right for Ethnos to publish such a partisan article. The Ethnic Affairs Commission should not be looked at as an instrument of government, it is a statutory authority. I am disappointed about that. That is not how it should be. I hope that will not happen again.

All in all, this Government's program for the new year is not very exciting. The citizens of New South Wales do not have much to look forward to. I seek the indulgence of the House to say a few words about my wish for preselection to the Senate. I wish to put on record some of the lies that are being bandied around, particularly by the minions of our party officers. The Senate preselection in my party was an act of incredible bastardry and nepotism. I place on record that my candidacy was never voted upon, nor was that of Pat Staunton. The only candidate for whom people were allowed to vote was the wife of the party secretary, Mrs Belinda Della Bosca. It was a very sad day for democracy. A message has gone out to young and old aspirants in our party that if they want to become a Labor senator in New South Wales they will have to be party officers or married to one. By speaking out, my desire is to be proved wrong and to ensure that such blatant nepotism will never happen again.

The Hon. J. W. SHAW [4.40]: Prompted by His Excellency's Speech proposals to corporatise the Sydney Water Board and to sell off the State Bank, I desire to make some observations of a general nature about privatisation. Contracting out and privatisation are interrelated. One writer has commented:

While there is nothing new in public bodies buying goods and services from private contractors, the more extensive interest in contracting out and competitive tendering in the 1990s is a product of a political program in many countries of privatising aspects of government services.

About 20 years ago Australian political parties were not interested in privatisation. Of course, there was always some ad hoc contracting out of particular, specialised government services. One writer, Mary Kelaher has written:

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Federal, State and local government has contracted out selected services for many years, albeit with varying levels of enthusiasm and political and bureaucratic will.

However, in terms of a vigorous program for the transfer of public activities into the private sector there was a distinct lack of enthusiasm. Labor was opposed to it and the coalition parties were not pushing the issue. However, during the 1980s, stimulated by experiences in the United Kingdom and the United States of America, the Liberal Party and National Party became committed to an active program of privatisation. They looked to their ideological soulmates overseas. In Great Britain the Thatcher Government was setting a cracking pace in the contracting out of government services such as health, municipal council administration and defence establishments. With the election of Ronald Reagan as President of the United States of America in 1981 privatisation was a prime domestic policy of the Republican Party.

Thus, for the Liberal Party and National Party, privatisation has become an article of faith, a matter of doctrine. By way of contrast Labor has moved away, to some extent, from a doctrinaire position, accepting that in some cases the contracting out of government services is appropriate. At the same time Labor strongly affirms its support for a vigorous and viable public sector. It supports the mixed economy. It has not embraced the doctrines of free market economics; rather, it has opted for a case-by-case approach involving a cost-benefit analysis of particular situations, to see whether in all the circumstances the retention of a particular service in the public sector is appropriate and justifiable or whether there are public interest advantages in contracting out.

An illustration of the differing approaches to the question of contracting out by the respective parties occurred in the parliamentary debates on the Local Government Bill, which became the 1993 Act, last year. In its proposal the Government wanted a mandatory contracting out provision for all services or undertakings worth more than $100,000. This rigid policy required that approach to be taken in all cases, irrespective of the arguments for and against having the work done by day labour, as to whether it would assist a local council to be a good local employer if it used its own staff to do a specific project. The ultimate view of this Parliament was that such a rigid imposition on local government by the State Government was not appropriate and that the matter should be left to responsible decision-making processes of the local councils. Local councillors need to take democratic responsibility for those decisions. If they make an erroneous decision, they will clearly feel the effect at the ballot-box in due course.

In an important resolution adopted unanimously at the 1992 annual conference of the New South Wales branch of the Australian Labor Party a number of criteria were adopted by which the party policy would test the appropriateness or otherwise of a particular contracting out or privatisation initiative. The resolution provided as follows. First, as to process, Labor in government will establish a committee to examine any proposed changes to the status and or standing of a public sector body, service, utility or asset. The committee will consist of representatives of government and trade unions, and may also include representatives of relevant community and consumer or user groups. Its role shall be to take public submissions and make its own investigations regarding any major proposal for privatisation and or private funding of infrastructure. Based on those submissions and findings the committee will prepare an impact statement on the proposed changes. In the formulation of its impact statement the committee will ensure that each of the following stringent criteria are fully examined and shall not recommend any changes that contradict the criteria. In Opposition, the parliamentary leadership will apply these criteria in consultation with public sector unions and other affected groups in the community. The following were the criteria:

There shall be no privatisation unless a particular proposal meets a stringent test based on the following 12 criteria.

(1) the direct and indirect social usefulness of a public asset, service or utility;

(2) the original purpose of the enterprise and whether that purpose remains valid, is being appropriately addressed through existing arrangements or could be satisfied by alternative arrangements. If applicable the non-commercial functions, whether of a social, redistributive or regulatory nature, will be assessed;

(3) where the original purpose . . . has become redundant, the other social redistributive or regulatory roles that have evolved must be taken in to account;

(4) the retention value of the enterprise measured against its sale value . . .

(5) the current structure of the market place (i.e. monopoly, oligopoly or competitive) and the public sector's role as a competitor and or regulator in that market;

(6) the impact on specific groups in the community, especially those groups that are already disadvantaged. The assessment should include all factors including the real costs of compensation and/or support that will be needed if the role of the public sector were to change;

(7) the impact on employment, skills, training and conditions and the protection of the existing work force and/or the reform of industrial relations practices in any new enterprise or project;

(8) the existing competing demands on the New South Wales public sector and existing budgetary constrains and/or the alternative sources of funds for public sector investment;

(9) current environmental impact and the need to continue and enhance environmental protection;

(10) consideration must be given to the administrative economies of scale and co-ordination that is facilitated by public ownership and control;

(11) determine appropriate weighting of long-term as well as short to medium-term considerations; and

(12) where the money is going, i.e. ensuring that proceeds from the disposal of assets are responsibly directed to priority public capital needs;

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Those are the 12 stringent criteria set out in the resolution of the New South Wales Branch of the Australian Labor Party. That might be described as an approach of sensible pragmatism, which is a justifiable approach given that the research indicates clearly that the results of privatisation are not necessarily beneficial, that is, there are negative aspects that need to be carefully weighed in the balance before sending specific work out to the private sector. One piece of research by a British writer, Paddon, indicates that claimed savings from privatisation are frequently illusory; that the problem of the ongoing regulatory costs of maintaining a competitive environment of supply and services has not been adequately addressed; that the additional costs imposed by contracting out, including transaction costs, have been significantly underestimated; that the average cost savings from contracting out experiences are nowhere near the levels of 20 per cent assumed in many Australian proposals; that many individual public sector units will experience increases in costs in contracting out, as distinct from the promised cost savings, and finally, that competitive tendering or the threat of contracting out are not the most effective way of achieving internal organisational change.

Another writer, Kelaher, has indicated problems, including identifying suitable private contractors to perform the services; only marginal benefits in cost reduction; a drop in the morale of the in-house staff; and the loss of in-house expertise. In the recent experience of the New South Wales public hospital system in tendering out cleaning services, clear evidence of unsatisfactory performance exists in relation to some of the contracts. In respect of one contractor the performance results after six months were regarded as inconsistent and unsatisfactory. Ultimately the contract was terminated on three months' notice. Luckily the contractor's cleaning staff were able to be re-employed by the hospital, but contractors' activities in public hospitals were threatened and there were job losses at the middle management level.

As well as these practical difficulties of implementation and negative effects there could also be real questions as to the appropriate timing of the disposition of a substantial Government asset. On the assumption I make for the purpose of the argument that there is some case for selling off the State Bank, there is nevertheless major debate as to whether it is appropriate at this time for the State Government to sell the State Bank of New South Wales. In the context of substantial trading losses, a low valuation for the bank, the recent problems of loans and write-offs due to the recession, the bank could probably be sold at some point in the future at a much higher price than is currently available in the market. Hence, the Labor Opposition has argued that if the State Government could increase the returns to it from the sale of the State Bank by 50 per cent or even more through management improvements, a delay in the sale would ultimately make much more money available to reduce State debt or enhance expenditure on the core responsibilities of State government.

Where a decision is taken to contract out work or privatise a particular aspect of Government undertakings, undoubtedly industrial relations problems arise associated with those decisions. Those problems need to be dealt with carefully in a sensitive and consultative fashion. I shall briefly list six areas of difficulty that employers face in dealing with privatisation proposals in the industrial relations field. First, I refer to the need for consultation. I take the view that employing authorities ought to consult with staff before any final decision is taken and gain input from them as to the principle of the proposal. It is obvious that once the decision is made many areas of consultation need to be undertaken about the details of any transfer of employment, redundancies and the like. The theme of the employer's approach ought to be one of consultation and co-operation.

Second, there are problems of union coverage. This is particularly so when the union that has covered the government workers is exclusively a public sector union and one must consider which union would have the coverage once the contracting out or privatisation has been effected. Third, there are problems of redundancy. My view is that every attempt should be made to deal with redundancies by voluntary redundancy or redeployment of staff so that there is a consensual approach rather than the unpleasant and difficult approach of the forced or compulsory redundancy. Even where alternative jobs are provided in the private sector where continuity of service is recognised, there ought to be redundancy packages available for those who do not find the private sector alternative employment suitable or appropriate.

Fourth, there is the problem of differential conditions of employment between the public sector and the private sector. This will sometimes be evident in terms of salaries but more particularly in other conditions of employment such as paid maternity leave in the public sector, and standards of sick leave, where there is normally 15 days per annum fully cumulative but usually 10 days or less available in the private sector. There may be different standards of long service leave, salary increment, promotional opportunities and the like. All those issues need to be hammered out for people who are forced by a decision largely beyond their control to move from what they had seen as an ongoing public sector or government employment career into a different world of employment by a private corporation.

The Hon. R. T. M. Bull: It is the same going into enterprise agreements.

The Hon. J. W. SHAW: To be quite frank the movement to enterprise agreements is often an illusory one. Many of the enterprise agreements are of a similar prescription to those under awards and people tend to exaggerate the impact of them. Many enterprise agreements are little more than the sorts of prescriptions one could always have under awards. It has become something of a fashion or a nostrum, but its real impact can be very much overstated.

The Hon. R. T. M. Bull: They do vary. You have both ends of the spectrum.

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The Hon. J. W. SHAW: Certainly. Some enterprise agreements will vary significantly from the pre-existing award coverage, that is so. Fifth, I refer to the role of the industrial tribunals. Recently it has been held by the Industrial Relations Commission of New South Wales that it does have the jurisdiction to deal with redundancy matters affecting public sector employees who are the subject of a privatisation or sell-off decision. That matter is under appeal but, whatever the legalities of it, it seems to me to be sensible that some industrial tribunal ought to have full authority to deal with these matters rather than to leave it to the parties to either agree or fight the matter out. Finally, there is the problem of superannuation where public sector employees have access to various State superannuation schemes; it is clear that, if they become employees of a private corporation, without legislative change for superannuation they cannot continue to be contributors to the public sector scheme. Obviously, this causes some disruption to their plans for retirement and so on. That is a difficult issue and can be considered only as one of the factors that should lead to an appropriate redundancy package, that is, where there is a clear detriment suffered by a person who must move from a public sector superannuation scheme into a minimal private sector scheme which simply reflects the minimum standards required by Commonwealth legislation. Some compensation is called for as part of that redundancy package.

I conclude by saying that whatever the difficulties of the decision-making process on whether a particular activity ought to be kept in the public sector and whatever the difficulties of implementing any decision to contract out, a basic stance should be that important core areas of government should never be the subject of a privatisation change. They would include public hospitals, public schools and the administration of justice. We ought to maintain a real and substantial public sector that delivers services to the citizens without a profit motive, simply in the public interest. Those services can be properly delivered only by public sector instrumentalities.

The Hon. D. F. MOPPETT [4.57]: It was refreshing to listen to the Hon. J. W. Shaw because he had some reason behind his comments. Yesterday the capricious remarks by the Leader of the Opposition in response to the Governor's Speech were depressing because they were irresponsible. I was reminded of the Marx brothers, three of whom were well-known. There was, however, a fourth brother. I equate the three well-known Marx brothers with the extraordinary trio Burke, Bannon and Cain. The fourth member of the quartet will be either Carr or Egan cavorting around with the finances of this State to match their proposals.

It was quite extraordinary to hear about this A team, this hit team, this group selected to be the bid team to try to promote what they believe to be viable businesses for New South Wales. This is an extraordinary formula. We went through this in the 1980s. It is a remote but horrifying prospect that this should be revisited today. I am pleased that a little sense was injected into the debate and I should like to continue in that vein by covering a number of topics that are of general significance and some of great significance in my particular area. The Speech of the Governor was inspiring. It was a plan with vision for the people of New South Wales. It demonstrated concern for a wide range of issues and a capacity to respond to the immediate problems which face New South Wales at this time.

We need to remind ourselves that although some of the darkest recession shadows have perhaps shifted, Australia is still in difficult circumstances. Anyone who advocates waving a magic wand will make everything all right is obviously playing on the gullibility of people. The basic structure of our national economy is out of balance - perhaps like the leaning tower of Pisa. The trade debt continues to grow, and I refer not only to that mind-boggling figure which is now reaching $177.8 billion, but also to the fact that, during the last September quarter, for every dollar increase in the Australian economy, net foreign debt increased by $1.13.

Though there has been better performance in much of our export industry, and some of our agricultural industries have improved their market share overseas, a tremendous amount of work still has to be done. It is good to see that at least in New South Wales that is being addressed sensitively, responsibly and with a vision for the future. That vision encompasses not only financial criteria that the Government will pursue - and Ministers can take credit for the courage and fortitude with which they are pursuing the financial and fiscal rectitude - but also the inspiration given to us in many areas. The Olympic Games is one such area, about which many honourable members have spoken, particularly the effect on the economy, as well as its uplifting effect on the people.

The Government has shown in these subjective and qualitative areas that it has a wonderful vision for the people of New South Wales. That is exemplified by the way in which we have moved - it is almost imperceptibly a seamless web - from the International Year for the World's Indigenous People to the International Year of the Family. We are linking our concern for indigenous people with our efforts to promote the strength of the family. These issues are important for indigenous people and I will expand on them later in my contribution.

The Governor's Speech was excellent. It was set in the context of the ceremony of the opening of Parliament, which I am sure all honourable members considered to be appropriate. I commend the Presiding Officers, Mr President and Mr Speaker, for the arrangements that were made for that day. They were without peer in appropriateness. Many of us believe in the maintenance of the ceremony attached to such things as an opening by the Governor - his public appearance, and all that goes with it, both within the Parliament and outside in the immediate vicinity. If this is carried to extremes, as is sometimes the case in other societies, it is counter- Page 154 productive, and too much concentration on form and not substance leads to disrespect and disregard for the institution.

The balance that was struck and the way in which it merged into the life of a busy metropolis like Sydney - first in Macquarie Street and then in Parliament House for the reception - was of great credit. My wife and I had asked old friends to come as guests for the day. They were thrilled by their experience, and it is only a matter of regret that the invitation cannot be extended to a wider circle of people because, by such contact with the Parliament, with its proceedings, with the Governor and all our institutions, people come to respect and cherish them. The Parliament of New South Wales, more than any other Parliament in any other State, and definitely more than the Federal Parliament, is seen to be the people's Parliament, accessible to the people in providing a wonderful inspiration. I sincerely commend you, Mr President, and the staff of the Parliament who made sure that it was such a wonderful occasion.

The Governor's Speech was not simply ceremonial. It contained a great deal of substance, which the people of New South Wales would have been pleased to hear. On the subject of education and training, there was a welcome message about the Government's determination to pursue its current program of reforming the whole education system, but it was particularly gratifying to hear that the concentration will still be on important core subjects. The re-introduction of studies in grammar into the K-6 English syllabus is significant. It is not a return to antidiluvian disciplinary approaches to teaching, learning by rote some sort of complicated and irrelevant procedure. It is a matter of learning a practical grammar that enables one to speak more fluently and to write more clearly.

Some experiments in education proved to be inappropriate. Education needed to be brought back to more prosaic terms so that children in succeeding generations will not be disadvantaged in employment and social development. The Governor mentioned the unprecedented capital and maintenance expenditure on the public education system. At the close of the previous parliamentary session I had the privilege to accompany the Minister's parliamentary secretary, the Hon. R. T. M. Bull, on a tour of some of the schools in far western New South Wales and northwestern New South Wales. It was an eye opener to see what improvement there had been in those schools, particularly with the amount of resource material available. That resource material is relevant to the community in which the schools operate. For example, in places such as Goodooga and Wilcannia the schools use material that has been specifically developed by the Aboriginal community for the Aboriginal community. The local communities have adopted the material as their own. It bears no comparison with the old days when they learned from primers things such as, "The cat sat on the mat". It is satisfying to see the development of our education system.

The Governor's Speech also contains a commitment to further reform of the vocational education and training system. Rural people will be interested to hear of that, because in the dramatic restructuring that is taking place, with rural industry becoming more and more efficient, there is no getting away from the fact that fewer and fewer people will be employed. The bleak economic forces bearing down on rural industries will ensure that fewer and fewer people will be able to derive primary employment from agricultural industries, so that more and more will seek fulfilment through vocational education and TAFE training.

Honourable members should leave the confines of the political argument, leave the city and visit country areas. The Hon. Patricia Forsythe and I visited a number of joint school-TAFE education facilities in country towns. We were impressed not only by the physical facilities but by the attitude of the staff and teachers, and by the fact that the communities considered they owned the institutions and wanted to mould them to the particular requirements of the area and region. The Governor's Speech makes clear that this approach will be pursued.

The TAFE-higher school certificate pathway is another exciting initiative. The Broken Hill community experienced disappointment when its town was not announced as undertaking one of the pilot programs. I have assured them, and they understand, that this innovation needs to be approached in an educational catchment area with a fairly large number of students so that the introduction of the pathways program will not detract from either high school or TAFE courses. If the trials in Wagga Wagga and Orange prove successful and are seen to be appropriate to cities like Broken Hill, I am sure the commitment by the Government will be followed which will enable such cities to derive the benefit for children who want to look at a more open, structured learning system. While studying some subjects that would be regarded as normal school education, students could gain accreditation in TAFE courses at the same time. Therefore, at the conclusion of a year of comprehensive study they have the skills necessary to obtain employment.

It is frustrating and difficult for young people to achieve confidence and self-esteem during the period of adolescent education - for many people it seemed that they were squeezed into the mould of secondary education - and reach year 10 without prospects of employment. Students believed there was no point in leaving school; they could not get a job because everything was irrelevant to their aims, aspirations and interests. This approach tended to sour students for future academic achievements. It is wonderful that the various arms of education are so flexible and combine well to offer better outcomes for children.

During the period of transition country communities were interested in the tourist industry initiatives. New South Wales tended to focus inwardly on a system that it developed and attempted Page 155 to spread money into regions to encourage local initiatives through regional tourist offices. A regional office in Orange or Broken Hill is of no use. Strategies need to be developed to attract the attention of people presently overseas in places such as Germany, England or New Zealand and to draw them to the diversity of New South Wales.

Tourists will be able to plan their visit to New South Wales so that the dollars can be spent in resorts or wherever there are tourist facilities. It makes no sense advertising at those places; it must be done elsewhere. Country areas always experience a little anxiety about change, but it has been explained by officers of the Tourism Commission, and more recently by the Minister, that this method is the most acceptable. The Minister generously acknowledges that the strategy was developed by studying winners - the States with larger growth in tourism than New South Wales.

New South Wales will learn the appropriate way to develop tourist market packages from those examples and will approach the future with greater confidence. The Governor referred in his Speech to agriculture. Though the spectre of drought that haunted New South Wales for a few years has passed, agricultural industries are looking at better prospects, particularly the markets for wine, dairy products, certain horticultural products, and sugar cane. I trust that I shall have an opportunity to speak at length on this subject in a separate motion at some later stage.

Many farmers are still struggling with the accumulated problems of the wool and wheat industry over the last five or six years, which has left tremendous problems with their capital structure. We look forward to the continuation of the rural adjustment scheme sympathetically dealing with producers that have fallen into difficulties. Indeed, across some marginal lands of New South Wales, Queensland and South Australia a more visionary look at the need for re-organisation and restructure is required because the Government has a part to play.

For many years the Government controlled the size of farm operations. The relationship between the Government and the lessee did not equate with the free market, yet more recently farmers have had to come to terms with other aspects of the free market. It has been a rough ride. State and Commonwealth governments have a responsibility to look at existing problems in the Western Division, the pastoral lands of New South Wales and adjacent areas of Queensland and South Australia to perhaps arrive at a more imaginative solution package.

I should mention a number of matters relating to my own area and interests about the problems of water quality and quantity, first, in the lower Darling, and then the Gwydir, Macintyre and Namoi valleys. With the long period of below average rainfall in the upper reaches of the Darling, the water reaching the river area below the Menindee Lakes through Wilcannia has become a matter of anxiety to the people in that region, both riparian landholders and neighbouring communities. Recently my attention was drawn to the anxiety about fish populations in Lake Menindee because the water supply had rapidly diminished during the latter part of summer. Many fish had perished.

At one stage it was reported that remarkable examples of our indigenous Murray cod - prized by anglers, but in its own right a remarkable creature - were in the lakes and that their future was dim if nothing was done. I am pleased to say that at my instigation the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries arranged for officers from his department to assess the situation. He presented a calmer view. Most of the fish that had died were European carp; a fish regarded by most people as a most unfortunate, invading, non-indigenous species, that has caused concern to those who are involved in the maintenance of our environment in its pristine state. Unlike any other fish, European carp has a dramatic effect on conditions in our waterways. A lot of people have conjectured that it has been one of the contributing factors, though not the major contributing factor, in the blue-green algae cycle.

The Hon. I. M. Macdonald: What about pesticides from the cotton industry?

The Hon. D. F. MOPPETT: I will get to that. European carp pose a problem because they clean away the natural weeds that filter out so many of the pollutants that come into the stream, as well as filtering out and acting as a biological counter.

The Hon. I. M. Macdonald: We should have a moratorium on cotton farming until we solve the problem of European carp.

The Hon. D. F. MOPPETT: The interjections by the honourable member are a reflection of the contribution of members opposite during this debate - to mislead people, to act on a lack of information and to make capricious statements which can lead only to unreal expectations in people's minds. I appeal to members opposite to desist. It occurred yesterday - dishonesty about the education program - and it is being perpetrated this afternoon by the Hon. I. M. Macdonald's display of abysmal ignorance of circumstances within the Darling Basin relating to the cotton industry, which is so vital to the economy of the nation and New South Wales.

The Hon. I. M. Macdonald: I agree, but there is a cautionary tale.

The Hon. D. F. MOPPETT: There might be a cautionary tale, but no industry is more careful of its chemical sanitation and its determination to ensure that water quality is upheld than the cotton industry. Most of the pollution comes from out-of-date sewage treatment plants that were installed years ago.

The Hon. I. M. Macdonald: Which the Government is refusing to update.

The Hon. D. F. MOPPETT: No, the Government is making a good fist of resolving the problem since it has been identified. But if anyone thinks that blue-green algae is something that arrived Page 156 with cotton producers or, for that matter, with the introduction of high phosphorous detergents, they have another think coming.

The Hon. R. T. M. Bull: The modern-day Aborigines call it bad water.

The Hon. D. F. MOPPETT: Bad water, and it was certainly reported by the earliest explorers who came upon the Darling River and its tributaries. I am very sympathetic to people living in the Wilcannia district who have probably experienced three years of very low river flow, although that is not beyond their past experience. The Government should review its policies. It may require the building up of weirs along the river to ensure larger volumes of water. I would support a review when we are in a more pluvial cycle and there is some water to talk about. I remind the Hon. I. M. Macdonald and other honourable members that the Darling was a stream that dried up from time to time.

Two members of the Bourke Council were in Sydney recently to man part of the central western economic zone display during the trade fair held at Darling Harbour. They had occasion to meet with the Minister for Ports and they took the opportunity to thank him for the grant towards the $300,000 restoration of the Bourke Wharf. It is of little interest to members opposite because they have no intention of visiting Bourke in the near future, if ever, but it is significant to the people of Bourke. The representatives offered the Minister copies of historic photos that will be part of a montage showing the history of river traffic when the wharf opens.

I know that the Hon. Delcia Kite is listening with one ear at least, although someone is boring away at the other, because I am aware of her interest in the shearing industry. So much of the product of that fruitful labour was carried down the Darling River on barges. Photographs show the building of the weir at Bourke when the river-bed was not dry as one might imagine a recently dried out river-bed to be, that is, rather muddy, but grass was growing in the bed of the Darling River. One classic photo portrays the paddle steamer Nile sitting in the dry river-bed, surrounded by grass. There is no doubt she had been stranded for at least two or three years because there was no flow in the river.

One has to be mindful of balancing environmental requirements. We would all like to see our rivers running as silver streams of continuous water, but they never have. If we are to preserve the ecosystems that have developed over thousands of years, we must understand that the most fundamental interference with the ecosystem, even in the Macquarie Marsh, is to flood them permanently or on an annual basis. That is certainly not the way in which those wonderful phenomena developed. I am concerned not only about the quality and the environmental aspects but, without any reservation, about the continuing low levels of irrigation water in Copeton Dam, and also in Keepit Dam. Although Pindari Dam has a reasonable amount of water on a percentage basis, it does not amount to a row of beans as it has small storage only.

The circumstances facing the cotton industry in those valleys remain bleak. Unfortunately, this comes when spot prices for cotton are at record levels. We would all like to see the growers and the economy reap the benefits of export income derived from the cotton industry - a far cry from its infant days when it was an import replacement industry only. Members opposite would remember when a bounty was paid to keep the fledgling cotton industry going. It has certainly grown to adulthood. Cotton is one of our major exports and deserves the support of members, not the snide comments that sometimes come from people who are not aware of the efforts to minimise chemical usage, particularly toxic chemicals, not to mention the moves to biological control of pests that thrive on a crop grown in tropical conditions in summer.

I should also like to commend a working group that has gathered in the Trangie district for its efforts to promote the idea of a pastoral college. We are all aware of the high reputation of the Longreach Pastoral College in providing a stratum of education for young people who are interested in rural industries, but it is generally below the level of what we have known as agricultural colleges in New South Wales. It is very much more a practical, hands-on education for those who want to work directly in the industry and who want to acquire some pre-employment skills in shearing, in the proper management of horses and dogs, and in the repair and maintenance of farm equipment. It is proposed that this college should be attached to the research station at Trangie. I hope that the working group is able to pursue that objective. I know there is a willingness to seek money outside the government sector to promote this college. I wish it well.

There has been a commendable initiative in the Coonamble district to draw attention to Ross River virus and other related mosquito-born diseases. Although these diseases are not exclusive to the western plains they are much more prevalent in that area. We have to view these diseases not simply as diseases that crop up from time to time but as a work-related health hazard. Many people who contract Ross River fever, Q fever, brucellosis or other diseases often have been exposed to mosquito attacks because of their work activities as stockmen or farm machinery operators. Ross River fever has largely gone unnoticed, although health authorities are well aware of it. For a while it was difficult to diagnose. It was some time before the syndrome was recognised and named.

Ross River fever has two forms. The first form is more commonly known. People have a reasonably extended period of illness and debilitation, they gradually recover and then go back to work. Ross River fever, like many other diseases, is not seen as being out of the ordinary. Sadly, Ross River fever and Q fever can lead to the development of chronic fatigue syndrome. Anyone who has had contact with people who have developed chronic fatigue syndrome will understand how unwelcome its development is and how disruptive it is of families and individuals Page 157 who fall prey to it. The Department of Agriculture should look at these health-related problems and at work practices to minimise exposure. The Department of Health should look at research and treatment. Perhaps in that way we will be able to reduce or eliminate the incidence of Ross River fever.

Another important issue which concerns people in western communities, particularly the people of Broken Hill, is the incidence of lead pollution. The Government, the Minister for Planning and Minister for Housing, the Hon. R. J. Webster, who is in the Chamber, the Minister for Health and the Minister for the Environment had oversight of the lead task force in Broken Hill. I congratulate those people on the package that was recently announced to overcome this identified problem. In this case congratulations are well deserved. I hope honourable members are listening as it would be easy in Newcastle, Port Pirie and Broken Hill to mount a scare campaign and to say, "The mining people have disturbed this mineral. They have great tailings dumps and the wind is blowing off them. They are the ones who are at fault". We do not need a witch-hunt and we must not say to those people that it is impossible to live in communities that have been involved in the lead smelting industry.

The detailed research work performed by this task force shows that the disturbance of the ground's surface has had little to do with the current problem. The incidence of higher than acceptable blood levels could be associated with small subareas within the city. In each case those could be associated with the indigenous soils and rocks of the area rather than the modifications that have occurred since mining and extraction commenced. The task force established that house modifications required to improve the health and hygiene of families in that area could be achieved with minimal interruption. It now seems unlikely that most people, if not all the people who are affected, will have to leave their district for a period of rehabilitation so that lead levels can be reduced. The Minister would be aware that there has been a successful attempt to provide clean houses into which people can move temporarily while their houses are being cleared of any pervading dust that might contain higher than acceptable levels of lead. Families could then be returned to their homes without having to leave Broken Hill.

Some honourable members might have noticed that one family was asked to move to Menindee pending the outcome of the report of the task force. It was with great joy that people in Broken Hill received the report. I know that people in Newcastle and in the Tomago area who have some anxieties concerning lead will also be very pleased to receive this report. There has been a comprehensive approach to lead problems, one from which we can all take a great deal of comfort. Earlier, mention was made of the tragic bushfires. I would like to mention some aspects of those bushfires that are not widely known. In most cases people from the bushfire brigades in my area were not called upon to participate in firefighting operations along the coast and adjacent to Sydney, largely because western New South Wales does not have the appropriate plant.

Honourable members who saw the media coverage of the bushfires would be aware of the well-equipped plants in South Australia, Victoria and some areas of the Central West, which are a credit to their governments and to the insurance industry which contributed some of the money for them. The money in New South Wales simply does not go far enough to provide that sort of equipment. The brigade in my area carries equipment on a truck owned by an individual.

The Hon. Dr B. P. V. Pezzutti: There are a lot of small plants.

The Hon. D. F. MOPPETT: There are a lot of little plants. In many cases all they are provided with is a pumping unit or perhaps a tank. It is impossible for those units to be mobilised to assist in that sort of initiative. We need to look at those problems. In the past when there have been bushfires in the Cobar district far greater areas have been burned, but that has not necessarily destroyed a lot of properties. Bushfires are difficult to fight. It would be more practical if that sort of equipment were available in districts like Cobar when big growths of corkscrew burn from time to time. There is a lesson to be learned. I certainly admire the people who volunteered to fight the bushfires. I was in Sydney over that weekend to attend the wedding at Elanora Golf Club of a daughter of close friends of my family.

Many honourable members would be aware of the publicity that occurred because arrangements had to be cancelled at 3 o'clock that afternoon when Elanora Golf Club and the rest of that area were threatened by fires that swept across the peninsula from Cottage Point. I had planned to spend the night at the club and was on the course that afternoon because it was the only safe place from which one could observe the fire coming over the hill. I could see flames going down the valley, backing off and enveloping a house in front of my wife and me. In a matter of moments nothing was left of that house. I was appalled at how exposed some of the properties were and appalled by the foolishness of local authorities in not carrying out any fire prevention work around those homes. During the course of the afternoon I observed helicopters using fire buckets to try to extinguish the flames. Much more research has to be done into the aerial combating of bushfires. I did not observe the point of impact of the water, but I can assure honourable members that after emptying all the available water on that area, within half an hour the fire had swept over it as though nothing had been done.

Unless more substantial aircraft than helicopters can be brought to bear to spread water, not much can be done in the face of fires of that intensity. I understand that the buckets of the helicopters hold about a tonne, or 200 gallons, of water. In the face of the flames that I was observing I would have thought the water would have evaporated before it hit the ground. I believe that units in the United States of America use Hercules aircraft throughout the Page 158 States. On occasions they are chartered to fight forest fires in Canada and occasionally they go to Mexico. When Australia sold the Hercules aircraft I guess we all went through the agony of wondering whether they and the Grumman Trackers could not have been used to fight bushfires. But that opportunity has gone. I think we ought to look very critically at the effectiveness of helicopters versus fixed-wing aircraft in bushfires.

I mentioned that I thought the Government was to be commended for the way in which, through the Governor's Speech, it has addressed the International Year of the Family. At the same time the Governor mentioned in conclusion the International Year for the World's Indigenous People. He referred in his Speech to the problems that have arisen since the passing of the Commonwealth Native Title Act of 1993. I wanted to talk about this subject and a number of related matters because during the intervening period I think a number of honourable members would have realised that there was considerable unrest in some of the western communities adjacent to where I live. I hope it would be a matter of concern to all members that somehow or other we have failed to meet the root cause of this social disorder. Though I think it is important to restore calm and respect for law and order, I do not think that will be maintained for long if we cannot effectively deal with the underlying causes of this rash of civil disobedience. It is not restricted to the town that received such a lot of publicity; it has been an ongoing problem that I think this Government has been attempting to address in a way that no other Government ever has.

Honourable members should bear in mind the formation of the youth support task force, the excellent report it produced and the courage with which the Government appointed the co-ordinators who were recommended. They have now been appointed in Moree, Walgett and Marrickville. Though the appointment will be made perhaps under another name, I think someone will perform the same functions in Bourke. I hope it is not too long before the Government announces the appointment of a person to Wilcannia to address that town's severe problems. The youth support task force identified the need to provide a plan so that more efficient use could be made of the existing resources that have been thrown at this problem like an avalanche.

We have reached the stage where I believe very firmly that the answer to the development of the Aboriginal people in our community is no longer to throw more money at them. I believe we have answered the neglect and indiscretions of the past. We have put in place some enlightened policies to improve the status of Aboriginal people within our community. I refer particularly to the Aboriginal land rights legislation in New South Wales, which has set in train a process that has and will empower Aboriginal people to take control of their affairs. The Commonwealth Government has had many useful initiatives but on this occasion I am not sure whether it has been totally enlightened in its effort to try to move beyond the revolutionary Mabo decision with the Commonwealth Native Title Act. I should not have thought that the reach of the Mabo decision was envisaged to be in New South Wales.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. Nile: Murray Island.

The Hon. D. F. MOPPETT: That is right. It may have been comprehensible that there were areas in Western Australia perhaps and the Northern Territory that may have fitted the criterion that was established. When one thinks that virtually all the land that may have fitted the criterion in a very general way was subject to Aboriginal land rights claims under the Aboriginal Land Rights Act, it is hard to imagine how it could be extended by a Commonwealth Act of Parliament such as the Commonwealth Native Title Act without creating a great deal of disruption, fear and unnecessary anxiety. I do not believe that Aboriginal people in New South Wales are looking to the Commonwealth Native Title Act with high expectations. Gradually they have come to realise that it does not hold much for them. I do not think their answer is in endless litigation about land but in practical things - better housing, better education, re-establishing the family and reinculcating respect for elders and parents in children and younger people. That really is the key to it.

I could expand on this subject and spend a deal of time on it, but I wanted to commend the Government for the initiatives it has taken to meet the anxieties of the Aboriginal people. We know it has been a frustrating transition for them. Their coming to grips with their access to alcohol may have increased their status but it has brought tremendous problems. It is difficult to argue that they should in any way be restricted and should not have the same rights as every other citizen. Few people would not agree that alcohol has been the single factor that has compounded whatever other difficulties there are. It has created a great deal of the anxiety and suffering and a great many problems and suffering and led to the violence and disorder we are trying to control.

I should have liked to cover many matters, but I feel it is appropriate at this stage to conclude my remarks. Once again I would like to say how much I appreciated the Governor's presence in the Chamber at the opening of Parliament. To me, it was an inspiring experience that should have been shared by all members. I was disappointed to hear the amendment moved by the Leader of the Opposition. It brings him no credit. I do not think it can achieve anything. The Opposition has other ways in which it can hang out its political shingle. I thought it was just a bit of political masquerading to try to introduce through an amendment and the remarks of the Leader of the Opposition the speculation that has been running in the newspapers about the reappointment of the present Governor. He certainly enjoys my confidence. I declare my loyalty to him and to the Queen. I take seriously the charge that he left us to get on with the business of looking after the people of New South Wales and to try to do whatever we can to improve their welfare generally.

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The Hon. DELCIA KITE [5.50]: As I rise to make my contribution to the debate on the Address in Reply to the Speech of His Excellency the Governor, Rear Admiral Peter Ross Sinclair, AC, I am aware that even in the midst of changing attitudes to his position His Excellency has earned the respect of the people of New South Wales for the manner in which he has fulfilled his role. I am aware that his duties have been approached with a down-to-earth commitment as he and Mrs Sinclair have met people from all walks of life. It is with respect for the quality of life of those people that the issues I am about to raise will be deemed to be sufficiently important to enshrine in legislation during the Fourth Session of the Fiftieth Parliament of New South Wales.

As we approach the final year of the present Government's term of office I feel that George Bernard Shaw's words are as relevant as ever, "We learn from history that we learn nothing from history". It is ironic that in my firm efforts to be more positive than the eloquent socialist bard I should refer to my maiden speech in this Chamber in September 1976. After acknowledging my parents, who sparked my political awareness, my husband and those mentors in the Australian Labor Party who taught me of the complexities of the political process, I addressed the issue of discrimination. I am proud to have been a member of the party which introduced legislation, at both Federal and State government levels, to address discrimination on the grounds of sex, marital status and race. I was encouraged when the former Premier, the Hon. Neville Wran, took up the issue I had raised in my maiden speech about the inequality that existed in the area of superannuation contributions of women workers, including female colleagues, and legislated accordingly. I now shall repeat the exact words I used in my maiden speech in 1976:

There is a denial of opportunity by prejudging people on stereotyped assumptions. Individuals should be judged as individuals.

It is obvious that over ambitiousness and denial of collective loyalty is present as much in the male contenders for power as in the very small minority of women who have been given the opportunity to stand for public office. However, the saddest stereotype is that which was observed by Lord Derby in 1841: that it is the duty of an Opposition to oppose everything and propose nothing. I certainly have not followed that stereotype. In 1976, and in every Address-in-Reply debate and every budget debate since, I have expressed my concern about the environment, the increase in pollution of our air, land and water. I repeat part of my 1976 maiden speech, for it is as relevant today as it was then:

If we are to have a sustainable society, and we owe this to future generations, we will have to make fewer demands on our environmental resources -

The PRESIDENT: Order! The honourable member does not have a powerful voice and I am having great difficulty hearing her, in view of the level of quiet discussion on the benches. I ask honourable members to desist.

The Hon. DELCIA KITE: I continue quoting:

- we will have to make fewer demands on our environmental resources, and a much greater demand on our moral resources.

In 1976 I put forward a set of principles for the preservation of the environment, the principles of overuse of non-renewable resources, conservation of non-renewable resources by efficient use, durability of goods, and recycling. I am pleased to reflect that it was the Whitlam Government in 1974 which enacted the first environmental impact legislation. Subsequent State governments developed control systems, such as the Clean Water Act, the Clean Air Act and some protective legislation to protect areas of particular significance. But political and administrative tension has denied the people of New South Wales their rights to just environmental law.

The powers of local government to develop progressive urban planning to protect the environment have been severely diminished. Reckless and negligent pollution causing environmental hazards with serious threat of substantial risk to the environment and to public health continue to occur. We cannot accept toxic spills or emissions to air, land or water as mere accidents - or, to use the favourite term of the nuclear industry, incidents. Whilst there are positive advances in the New South Wales environmental laws in defining what constitutes an offence that attracts a penalty, the failure to plan appropriately to avoid or at least minimise the risk of such occurrences is still cause for concern.

Liability when a dangerous substance escapes is subject to a number of defences, one of which is "the creation of a dangerous thing pursuant to an authority conferred by State" and, as pointed out by John Mant in his paper "Environmental Law: an Australian Perspective", legislation is based upon a user-pays principle. The law requires the polluter to pay for cleaning up the pollution, as well as paying for penalties and compensation expenses. Let me examine the situation as it relates at present to the clean waterways program. When sewage and stormwater overflow to the extent revealed in the Water Board data - as 70 per cent of pollution in Sydney's harbour and waterways - one must seek to find the causes. Beaches, rivers and bays have been destroyed after being polluted as a direct result of overurbanisation. Approximately two-thirds of the Hawkesbury-Nepean river system flow is sewage effluent, because the river's natural flow has been stopped upstream at Warragamba Dam so that most of it can be diverted to Sydney, where the population of three million people dispose of their sewage and wastewater directly into the ocean.

Where does the duty of care lie? Water is the lifeblood we take for granted, and if we do not do something quickly to clean up the rivers our food chains are in danger of being wiped out. The Water Board has been milked of its profits in order to boost consolidated revenue. All honourable members will be aware of what happened to the environment levy, which was supposed to be a temporary measure to Page 160 clean up the beaches and rivers. It has now become a permanent component of water bills. We read constantly that our old water and sewerage mains are unable to take the extra loads, particularly during rainy seasons, but we are aware that the Water Board cannot replace them because since 1988 the Fahey Government has milked the Water Board of more than $0.75 billion.

Consistent with government policy to redirect expenditure from experienced staff review processes to the hiring of consultants, it has spent a record $37.6 million on consultants. In addition to the breakdown in the delivery of services and maintenance of major works, Water Board workers face the threat of 3,000 jobs being slashed; that is one-third of its staff. That will result in the Water Board having to struggle to meet even its most basic responsibilities. This destabilising attitude comes at a time when there is an urgent need to commence work on Warragamba Dam.

The PRESIDENT: Order! I cannot hear the honourable member.

The Hon. DELCIA KITE: The original proposal was to build a $90 million spillway by 1996, and a new dam wall was to be completed by the year 2000. Now we are told that people living in the Hawkesbury region are subject to a potential major flood that could threaten thousands of lives. Nevertheless, the commencement of work is still to be delayed. The duty of care must extend to ensuring that no further development occurs within this region until assurances of safety can be given. As well as having to grapple with the lack of proper strategic action by the Government for planning guidelines, the Environment Protection Authority is working against all political odds to regulate and licence to diffuse the sources of pollution. I note with dismay that the number of prosecutions by the Environment Protection Authority has dropped from 325 in 1990 to 42 last year; yet the New South Wales river systems are more polluted than ever. Yields of fish, prawns and oysters are down 70 per cent in the Hawkesbury River alone.

The community is being educated to reduce the use of pollutants that ultimately find their way into the waterways, but who is facing up to the critical need to stop new and more dense development? The Government must shoulder the responsibility for the duty of care in regard to encouraging growth at all costs. The tension between the Government and its experienced public servants who have recommended against the release of 12,500 new housing lots in the Hawkesbury-Nepean catchment area is on record. Urgent attention must be paid to the limits to which we can strain our natural resources for the sake of the intangible "growth". David Suzuki, in his book Time for Change, reminds us "that the world is in the midst of unprecedented and catastrophic increase in human numbers, technological power and ecological destruction". New South Wales is no longer isolated or protected from the consequences of this situation, even though we are in the privileged 20 per cent of the industrialised world which uses almost 80 per cent of the planet's resources and generates most of its toxic waste.

No amount of daydreaming or technological optimism can avoid the reality that unsustainability of such population growth is not speculation or wishful thinking and is an inescapable consequence. Similarly, no amount of economic rationalism in defence of job cuts, such as those threatening the Water Board and many other State Government statutory authorities - be it in the name of corporatisation or privatisation - can be acceptable. The loss of 3,000 jobs means devastation to 3,000 families. The unmeasured social cost of unemployment in increased crime, youth suicide and violence must be measured against such narrowly based economic decisions if the International Year of the Family is to be taken seriously in New South Wales.

This is why I referred to the moral resources required by government in my 1976 maiden speech, not the narrow morality which is based on sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity but as a duty of care for the future generations who will live in what is known as New South Wales. It is no time for short-term parochial visions but for responsible future directions. The indigenous people of this State 200 years ago made laws in harmony with the natural elements. They knew when to set fire, when to conserve and they understood that the economics of growth were inalienably connected with the land. David Suzuki challenges us that we, the present legislators, currently speak instead for "the shrinking minority who think we can manage our impact on nature."

Since 1788 we have misused our land by clearing native vegetation, overgrazing with hard-hooved European stock, excessive fertilisation, irrigation and constantly ripping up the ground with heavy machinery. These practices have taken their toll and have resulted in the breaking down of the structure of the soil, causing erosion and resulting in the economic outcome that the soils are too acid or salty to grow anything. John Williams, deputy chief of the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organization, Division of Soils, threw us a challenge when he said:

We've got to change the focus of research from short-term productivity to sustainability. Agricultural production needs to be based on what the land could sustainably supply, rather than what the market demanded. If there are no changes, whole segments of the rural industry will collapse.

Dr Dean Graetz, principal research scientist with the CSIRO Division of Wildlife and Ecology, estimated that "degradation has already destroyed about 10% of the nation's croplands, and 25% of its pastoral property". Dr Graetz said that he would shut down at least one-tenth of the Western Lands Division. This area is about 4 per cent of New South Wales. The CSIRO estimates that 12 billion trees need to be planted in the Murray-Darling Basin to restore its sustainability.

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At this crucial time in the record of the Government I commend the efforts that have been made to protect the environment. However, I implore the Government to take heed of the cautions of David Suzuki that "we will not get courageous leadership from people obsessed with getting back in". However, we can agree across all party lines that there is indeed an ecological crisis which can be overcome with the same bipartisan approach that was applied to the benefit of all who were threatened by the recent bushfires. There was co-operation and absurd divisions about human survival were not present in that temporary crisis. And there is no reason for irrelevant interests to dominate our human survival when it comes to appropriate urban planning for the future.

Professor Donald Horne expressed it as a "spiritual relief, displaying an Australia with the ability to come together in things held in common". There is a responsibility on all members of this Parliament to commit themselves beyond the next two or three elections to the responsibility of legislating to ensure that the issues of global warming, soil degradation, loss of wilderness and pollution of our air, water and land receive the maximum economic and policy priority. We need not divert funds from employment strategies but should redirect them into areas such as the development of alternative energies, Landcare projects and clean technologies. Health care need not be dominated by economic rationalism but can be revitalised with the return of basic preventive health programs administered at the grass roots level. The election of the present United States Government was in no small way due to the attitude of Al Gore, who stated:

If you want real change, don't look to the politicians like me for leadership. You must sell your ideas to the grass roots, empower them with a vision and means to achieve it. When the public really understands it and demands it, we politicians will fall over ourselves to climb on board.

The commitment I seek could be, relatively speaking, politically painless. I reiterate what I said in my maiden speech:

Economic growth will have to change from one in which the emphasis is on production of goods to one where the emphasis is on production of services, such as transport, education, health, science, the arts and all forms of creative leisure . . . the sustainable society will be one in which industry is directed to social goals, instead of to profitability . . . to the durability of goods instead of to inbuilt obsolescence.

For too long now we have used our land, rivers and oceans as a fathomless garbage pit. We have believed that the solution to our escalating problems with garbage and waste was to let the water carry it away, to bury it or to burn it into the atmosphere. We now know this is a myth. A large percentage of garbage is composed of the packaging of goods we purchase. German law requires that packaging which is not an essential component of a product must be taken back by the merchant. The merchant may reduce the packaging or return it to the manufacturer. Under German law the manufacturer cannot just dump it into the waste stream but must recycle or reuse it.

This surely must be a model piece of legislation which this Government could introduce. I am sure it would be supported by every member and would be consistent with the four Rs theory of waste management suggested by David Suzuki - recycle, reuse, reduce and rethink. It is commendable that the Government has been able to negotiate with private companies to transport some of its dangerous fuels by rail instead of road in the Blue Mountains region. However, I voice the concerns of residents of Vineyard and Windsor regarding plans for a $20 million fuel storage and distribution complex proposed by Caltex Oil (Australia) Pty Limited at Vineyard. The proposed site is only 800 metres west of the scene of the recent rail level crossing accident. The Caltex terminal will comprise 16 large storage tanks up to 19 metres tall. The petrol from the tanks will be distributed to service stations throughout New South Wales by up to 180 road tanker trips a day, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. The huge carriers will travel along some single lane sections of Windsor Road. Tanker trains will fuel at Mulgrave each night and after 4 a.m. the next day will begin the journey to bulk terminals in regional country areas.

I am raising this matter as an example of urban planning which takes into consideration only part of the environmental impact. Caltex's proposed complex is very close to Windsor High School and the Windsor and McGraths Hill town centres. Residents are genuinely concerned and are aware of the unacceptable history of Caltex's environmental standards which, through freedom of information, are documented at its Sydney complex as having exceeded its pollution licence requirements 32 times. The company later admitted there had been 50 such incidents. As with many other companies, Caltex pays to pollute the environment and buys a licence which sets a limit to the level of contamination allowed.

The company does its own monitoring and submits its report to the State Pollution Control Commission. A recent accident involving the Caltex contract carrier Linfox spilled huge quantities of diesel into the Sylvania residential and retail areas, and into the Georges River, polluting the beach at Carrs Park. This incident has added to the mistrust of Windsor residents. The Hawkesbury City Council rejected the Caltex development application because of the environmental impact and dangers associated with the proposal. However, Commissioner Clelland of the Commission of Inquiry for Environment and Planning recommended that the project should be approved. I trust Minister Webster will reject it outright.

The Hon. R. J. Webster: What is that?

The Hon. DELCIA KITE: I have just told you, the Caltex proposal for Vineyard -

The Hon. R. J. Webster: I have approved it.

The Hon. DELCIA KITE: You have approved it?

The Hon. R. J. Webster: Yes.

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The Hon. DELCIA KITE: The Minister should be ashamed of himself. He should have rejected Caltex's proposal in view of the dangers associated with the location of the depot and the route, which includes level crossings. I commend the commitment to the wilderness. Even the conservative journal of the National Roads and Motorists Association, Open Road, featured David Suzuki's warning that:

. . . the developed world is a major generator of greenhouse gases and the car is the major contribution of carbon dioxide emissions . . . Car generated air pollution also degrades human health, causes premature death and reduces crop yields . . . When you burn 20 litres of petrol, you release about 14 kilograms of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, and it takes a big tree about a year to remove it. Yet we are deforesting this planet.

We read headlines last year which stated "Smog danger day - official warning" and "Local smog levels may eclipse LA". This year the Good Weekend featured an article entitled "Death Wish" which stated:

. . . the awful truth remains that a large part of humanity will suffer due to rapid population growth and the deterioration of forests and arable soil.

Researchers examined the air pollution stream which extends from the Sydney business centre to Campbelltown, St Marys, Penrith, Richmond, Windsor and Blacktown where it stagnates all day, from 9 a.m. to 2 a.m. the next day. It is little wonder that one in five children and many adults in this region suffer from asthma. They cannot wait for the three-year study set up by the Fahey Government to examine possible links between Sydney's air quality and health disorders. It has been left to local government to call a summit to address the effects on air pollution levels of increasing urban development, population growth, car reliance and geographical constraints on air movement.

These include carbon monoxide, which depletes oxygen in blood and body tissues; nitrogen dioxide, which attacks bronchial and lung tissue; oxidants, which affect the linings of the lung and respiratory tract; sulphur dioxide, which irritates bronchial mucosa; and lead, which affects the central nervous system, renal tissues and blood formation and pressure. Others include smoke, dust, urban haze and photochemical smog. The people in western Sydney are not impressed with the three-year study committee and would like to see something constructive done now. A freeze on housing development on the outskirts of Sydney, and the development of a more extensive, safe, reliable and affordable public railway system which would take cars off the roads would be a good start. Burn off of gases from industrial complexes such as the proposed Caltex plant will only increase the air pollution problem.

I have not retreated from the philosophy which I espoused in my maiden speech almost 18 years ago. Given recent events and the closures of industries in this State, I plead for a return to previous proper working standards, standards which have been now compromised by enterprise bargaining with little or no consultation. The avowed intent of co-operative bargaining often has been replaced by power brokerage over powerless workers threatened with redundancy when they declare their concerns. This is not the kind of industrial relations which made this the lucky country. It is not the way in which we promote the clever country. We have the talents to lead the world in products such as alternative energy, waste disposal techniques and many others being perfected by the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organization. I close my address in reply with the same words that concluded my maiden speech:

I am sufficiently aware of political realities to appreciate that many of the proposals for a sustainable society will be considered impracticable. No capitalist nation has, as yet, imagined the extent of the alterations it must undergo to attain a stationary socio-economic structure, and no socialist state has evinced the needed willingness to subordinate its national interests to supra-national ones. This poses the question; does this mean that the change will be forced upon us by external events, by catastrophe instead of calculation? Those of us who count ourselves among the affluent could ask ourselves what right have we to use such a disproportionately large share of the earth's resources. The affluent countries represent 20 per cent sign of mankind but they consume 90 per cent of the earth's resources each year, and that proportion is growing. Where are restraints to be put? What is to be reduced - the luxuries of the rich or the necessaries of the poor? As Ghandi once said, "Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not for every man's greed". I ask you all to think, and think seriously, about the future course of our State and the nation.

Now, 18 years later, I appeal for the same priorities by this Fiftieth Parliament.

Debate adjourned on motion by the Hon. I. M. Macdonald.

ADJOURNMENT

The Hon. R. J. WEBSTER (Minister for Planning, and Minister for Housing) [6.16]: I move:

That this House do now adjourn.

GAY AND LESBIAN MARDI GRAS

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE [6.16]: I share with honourable members my concern about the gay and lesbian mardi gras parade and the follow up party to be held on Saturday, 5 March 1994. As honourable members know from previous statements I have made, without going into detail, much of the material in the floats and used by individuals is offensive, indecent and in particular, blasphemous. A large number of men - homosexual men, it is assumed - will dress in the habit of Catholic nuns, which I find offensive. I have been approached by Catholic sisters who are offended by it, even though newspaper debate has taken place and letters from certain people have been received to the effect that nuns are broad minded and that it does not worry them. I have been approached by nuns who indicate that they are offended by this display. Placards will be carried with such wording as "Sluts for Jesus", "Dykes for Jesus", "Mother Teresa's love child", and so on, which I regard as blasphemous.

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After the mardi gras a party will be held at the showground. This will be a threat to public health because the excess consumption of alcohol, the noise that will come from the event, and the darkness will add to sexual activity. This will create what I call the AIDS cocktail. Large numbers of homosexual men will come into Sydney. It would be amazing if a number of them were not carrying the AIDS virus. That is bad enough, but they may be carrying various strains of the AIDS virus if they come from the United States, Asia or Europe. Some of those strains may not yet be in Australia; they could be virulent and may not respond to some of the drugs that are being used in Australia. To that extent it puts at risk a large proportion of male homosexuals in Sydney.

The program itself has been published. It contains pornographic photographs which, under normal circumstances, would make it a restricted publication. I was particularly shocked to find on page 6 of the program, in what is called the Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras Guide 1994, messages of support from the Prime Minister, Paul Keating -

The Hon. R. S. L. Jones: That is not a pornographic photograph.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: The guide itself has pornographic photographs in it.

The Hon. R. S. L. Jones: Those photographs are not pornographic.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE: I did not say they were. I am saying that these leaders of State, Federal and local governments have allowed their photographs and statements to appear in a publication which contains pornographic photographs. The Prime Minister has allowed his photograph to appear in it, as has the State Premier, Mr Fahey; the Federal Leader of the Opposition, Dr John Hewson; the State leader of the New South Wales Opposition, Bob Carr; and a number of others. I believe that is causing great concern in the community. In the Federal Parliament a large number of coalition members have publicly condemned Dr John Hewson for endorsing the mardi gras parade. I trust some members of this House may have the courage to condemn the State Premier, Mr Fahey, for commending and endorsing the mardi gras parade.

On Sunday night the Australian Broadcasting Corporation will screen a one-hour special of the mardi gras parade. This simply rubs salt into the wound. I have recently been advised that 90 Federal senators and members of the Federal House of Representatives, comprising 20 Australian Labor Party members and 70 coalition members, have just petitioned the ABC not to screen the special. That represents almost half of the Federal Parliament, which is a unique event. Copies of the advice have been sent by me to members of this House and the other place in an endeavour to have members of this Parliament support their Federal colleagues in that petition. The ABC conducted a ring-in poll about the proposed screening of that program. Of 14,000 callers, being ABC viewers, more than 70 per cent objected to the screening. That is an important survey. [Time expired.]

COALMINERS STRIKE

The Hon. J. H. JOBLING [6.21]: I wish to highlight what I believe can be described only as an act of utter bastardry in this nation. I refer to the coalminers strike that has been happening over the last six days across New South Wales and Queensland. The decision to close down the mines in New South Wales and Queensland for six days is simply outrageous. This State cannot afford that type of disruption to its major export earner of more than $20 million a day. Currently there is an oversupply of coal in the world and if the miners continue to cause this type of trouble, the outcome is inevitable: there will be nothing to stop our customers negotiating with other coal producing countries such as Indonesia, Canada or Brazil. Even South Africa, is keen to sell coal.

We are returning to the bad old days of being a totally unreliable supplier. At the moment three ships are in port waiting to load more than 200,000 tonnes; 15 are hanging at hook off Newcastle harbour; and a further 18 will arrive in the next 10 days looking to load 1.5 million tonnes worth $75 million. This is most stupid. Port Waratah Coal Service has all but run out of coal stocks, forcing ships to queue for cargo. Owners will have to put up with wharfage fees and demurrage costs will have to be met. A demurrage charge or late charge of up to $10,000 per day will be incurred by most vessels.

The attitude of the union is simply to warn of further disruptions for any retaliation against the strike. This takes us back to the bad old days of muscle-flexing threats and bully-boy tactics. To allay any question about where this information originates, I shall read what the miners union general president, John Maitland said when he warned that retaliation against the strike rally would see the industry being shut down again. What a way to progress and get this country going! Most of the miners in the Hunter region to whom I have spoken, and those I will speak to tomorrow, do not have the vaguest idea why they are on strike. They do not know what is going on. They are simply told to go on strike, lose wages and, quite frankly, they follow like sheep, bearing in mind that they lose wages and everything else that goes with it. There is simply no way to deal with that.

The coalminers will not have their wages reimbursed, jobs will be lost and mines will close if overseas mines take our contracts. Ships will not want to come to Australia. The Oceanus is one of 18 vessels waiting to take coal from Port Newcastle. It has dropped anchor two kilometres out to sea and will stay watching and waiting. Regardless of what happens, the crew must be paid while they sit until the ship can come in and load its 67,500 tonnes of coal. Of the ships waiting, 14 will go to Japan, three to Korea, one to Taiwan, one to China and one to Pakistan. If we continue in this fashion, we will lose those markets.

The Federal Minister says it is okay, we will negotiate the prices, that coking coal prices will not be the same as steaming coal. The truth is that these Page 164 prices have been discussed and three rounds of steaming coal negotiations have ended in deadlock. The market and economy in Japan is depressed and it is doing what anyone else would do - trying to obtain a commercial product at a commercial price. Coal earns a quarter of this State's income export earnings. In 1992 it raised $3.1 billion in export earnings. In 1992, 53.5 million tonnes of coal were exported - 54 per cent of which went to Japan. We were looking to increase the medium-term demand by 100 per cent by the year 2010. If we follow this stupidity, allowing it to continue unresolved, New South Wales will be in a parlous state. I call on the united mine workers to immediately return to work and start assisting the industry by working together, beating the slumping prices and getting New South Wales back on its feet.

ILLAWARRA TEMPORARY CARE UNIT BEDS

The Hon. R. D. DYER [6.26]: I raise a matter of serious concern relating to the temporary care unit at Margaret Street, Balgownie, in the Illawarra region. This unit is operated by the Department of Community Services for the temporary respite care of people with developmental disabilities. With the concurrence of the Minister for Community Services, the Hon. Jim Longley, I had the opportunity to visit this facility in company with the honourable member for Keira, my parliamentary colleague Mr Colin Markham, on 16 June last year.

At that time I was impressed by the facilities available at Margaret Street for the care of people with developmental disabilities. I also noted that considerable refurbishments had been undertaken to make the bedrooms as homelike and as welcoming as possible. I have been approached by Mrs Margaret Chadwick, a full-time carer and parent of a 35-year-old daughter with an intellectual and physical disability, regarding the current unavailability of some beds in the temporary care unit due to their diversion to other uses.

The temporary care unit contains only five beds, but it is an invaluable facility to parents and carers of children with intellectual and physical disabilities in the Illawarra for the provision of much-needed respite care. Despite there being only five beds, I am advised that one of the beds has been occupied permanently by a woman since her mother died in July 1992, thereby reducing the availability of beds to a long list of clients to four only.

In addition, one of the beds has been occupied by a resident of Baringa hostel, Mount Ousley, for the past several weeks. Accordingly, it is clear that for an indefinite period only three beds will be available to community clients. I emphasise that Mrs Chadwick has no problem acknowledging that the people in question, who are occupying two of the five temporary care beds are, like many others, in desperate need of either permanent or temporary care. Mrs Chadwick has suggested to me that many of the former bedrooms in the adjacent day care centre at Margaret Street are being used merely to store equipment. She suggests that without unduly disturbing the day care centre, a lock-up garage could be built in the grounds at Margaret Street to house the stored equipment, thus freeing one house for use as another temporary care unit. Finally, Mrs Chadwick has suggested that if more spaces are needed for the day care centre, it would be quite readily possible to add a room at a particular side of the building.

I well appreciate the dilemma faced by the staff of the temporary care unit, whom I have no wish to attack. However, parents and carers face an even greater dilemma when access to five sorely needed temporary care beds is impeded because two of them are taken out of use for community clients for substantial periods. I ask the Minister to give serious and sympathetic consideration to the problems I have raised and, in particular, to the suggestions Mrs Chadwick has made for some relatively minor alterations at Margaret Street, which could well have the effect of markedly alleviating the present difficulties.

TWEED WOMEN'S AND CHILDREN'S REFUGE AND RESOURCE CENTRE

The Hon. ANN SYMONDS [6.29]: I raise a matter of some urgency. I ask the Government to act urgently to provide sufficient funding for the Tweed Women's and Children's Refuge and Resource Centre. No other service is available between Lismore and Brisbane. At a meeting on Monday night, the management committee of that service agreed that it would resign as of Friday if the Government could not find the funds to operate the service. The committee has been requesting that funding for more than a year. There is no doubt that the service is urgently required, evidenced by the fact that in January 70 women were turned away from the Tweed refuge.

I believe the problems could be overcome easily if the Government were to make an administrative decision forthwith. At the very least, the Government could intervene to request the members of the management committee not to make their resignations effective tomorrow, thus enabling further negotiations to be entered into. I note that today the Treasurer and Minister for the Arts announced that an extra $131 million would come into New South Wales from the Grants Commission. If the Government could allocate some of those funds towards women's and children's services in the far northeast of the State, it would be well received by the women in that area and would suit the Government's commitment to families and children. [Time expired.]

Motion agreed to.

House adjourned at 6.31 p.m.