House of Commons Scottish Affairs Committee The Referendum on Separation for Scotland, Session 2013–14 Oral and written evidence Volume III Oral evidence ordered by the House of Commons to be printed 9, 23, and 30 January, 13 February, 7 and 19 March, 14 and 15 May, 5, 12 and 19 June and 9 July 2013 Written evidence ordered by the House of Commons to be printed on 09 January 2013 HC 140-I Incorporating HC 139-xv - HC139-xx, Session 2012-13 Published on 7 October 2013 by authority of the House of Commons London: The Stationery Office Limited £21.50 The Scottish Affairs Committee The Scottish Affairs Committee is appointed by the House of Commons to examine the expenditure, administration, and policy of the Scotland Office (including (i) relations with the Scottish Parliament and (ii) administration and expenditure of the offices of the Advocate General for Scotland (but excluding individual cases and advice given within government by the Advocate General)). Current membership Mr Ian Davidson MP (Labour/Co-op, Glasgow South West) (Chair) Mike Crockart MP (Liberal Democrat, Edinburgh West) Mrs Eleanor Laing MP (Conservative, Epping Forest) Jim McGovern MP (Labour, Dundee West) Graeme Morrice MP (Labour, Livingston) Pamela Nash MP (Labour, Airdrie and Shotts) Sir Jim Paice MP (Conservative, South East Cambridgeshire) Simon Reevell MP (Conservative, Dewsbury) Mr Alan Reid MP (Liberal Democrat, Argyll and Bute) Lindsay Roy MP (Labour, Glenrothes) Dr Eilidh Whiteford MP (Scottish National Party, Banff and Buchan) The following members were also members of the committee during the Parliament: Fiona Bruce MP (Conservative, Congleton) Mike Freer MP (Conservative, Finchley and Golders Green) Cathy Jamieson MP (Labour/Co-op, Kilmarnock and Loudoun) Mark Menzies MP (Conservative, Fylde) Iain McKenzie MP (Labour, Inverclyde) David Mowat MP (Conservative, Warrington South) Fiona O’Donnell MP (Labour, East Lothian) Julian Smith MP (Conservative, Skipton and Ripon) Powers The committee is one of the departmental select committees, the powers of which are set out in House of Commons Standing Orders, principally in SO No 152. These are available on the internet via www.parliament.uk. Publication The Reports and evidence of the Committee are published by The Stationery Office by Order of the House. All publications of the Committee (including press notices) are on the internet at www.parliament.uk/scotaffcom. A list of Reports of the Committee in the present parliament is at the back of this volume. The Reports of the Committee, the formal minutes relating to that report, oral evidence taken and some or all written evidence are available in a printed volume. Additional written evidence may be published on the internet only. Committee staff The current staff of the Committee are Rebecca Davies (Clerk), Rhiannon Hollis (Clerk), Duma Langton (Inquiry Manager), Gabrielle Hill (Senior Committee Assistant) and Ravi Abhayaratne (Committee Support Assistant). Contacts All correspondence should be addressed to the Clerk of the Scottish Affairs Committee, House of Commons, 7 Millbank, London SW1P 3JA. The telephone number for general enquiries is 020 7219 6123; the Committee’s email address is [email protected] List of witnesses Wednesday 9 January 2013 Page Professor Colin Harvey, School of Law, Queen’s University, Belfast Ev 318 Wednesday 23 January 2013 Professor Malcolm Chalmers, Research Director and Director, UK Defence Policy Studies, Royal United Services Institute, and Professor Ron Smith, Department of Economics, Birkbeck College Ev 332 Wednesday 30 January 2013 Stuart Crawford, former Lieutenant-Colonel in the Royal Tank Regiment, and Richard Marsh, Economist, 4-Consulting Ev 351 Wednesday 13 February 2013 Rt Hon Michael Moore MP, Secretary of State for Scotland, Rt Hon David Mundell MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, and Rt Hon Lord Wallace of Tankerness QC, Advocate General for Scotland Ev 371 Thursday 7 March 2013 Martin McCurley, Trade Union Convenor, Unite, Coulport, Jim Conroy, Chair, Shop Stewards Committee, Unite, Faslane, and Richie Calder, Shop Steward, Unite, Faslane Ev 387 Tuesday 19 March 2013 John McCormick, Electoral Commissioner for Scotland, Andrew Scallan, Director of Electoral Administration, Electoral Commission, Andy O’Neilll, Head of Office Scotland, Electoral Commission, and Tony Stafford, Head of Policy, Electoral Commission Ev 396 Tuesday 14 May 2013 Ronald Bowie, Senior Partner, Hymans Robertson, pensions consultancy, Professor David Bell, Professor of Economics, Stirling University, David Wood, Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland, Technical Policy and Services, and Christine Scott, ICAS Assistant Director, Charities and Pensions Ev 422 Wednesday 15 May 2013 Rt Hon Michael Moore MP, Secretary of State for Scotland, Rt Hon Danny Alexander MP, Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Chris Flatt, Deputy Director, Constitution, Scotland Office, and Stephen Farrington, Deputy Director, Economics Group, HM Treasury Ev 440 Wednesday 5 June 2013 Caroline Gardner, Auditor General for Scotland, Russell Frith, Assistant Auditor General, and Angela Cullen, Assistant Director, Audit Scotland Ev 457 Wednesday 12 June 2013 Dr Angus Armstrong, Director of Macroeconomic Research, National Institute of Economic and Social Research, and Carl Emmerson, Deputy Director, Institute for Fiscal Studies Ev 471 Wednesday 19 June 2013 Sajid Javid MP, Economic Secretary to the Treasury, Rt Hon Michael Moore MP, Secretary of State for Scotland, Andy Drought, Financial Services and Economic Engagement Team, Scotland Office, and Paul Doyle, Devolved Countries Unit, HM Treasury Ev 489 Tuesday 9 July George Grant, Associate Fellow, Henry Jackson Society Ev 504 List of written evidence 1 National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers Ev 523 2 Transport Salaried Staffs’ Association (TSSA) Ev 525 3 Department for Transport Ev 528 4 Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen (ASLEF) Ev 531 5 FirstGroup Ev 533 6 Rt Hon Michael Moore MP, Secretary of State for Scotland Ev 535 7 Scottish Public Pensions Agency Ev 536 8 Andrew Scallan, The Electoral Commission Ev 539 Volume III Oral and written evidence Wednesday 9 January 2013 Wednesday 23 January 2013 Wednesday 30 January 2013 Wednesday 13 February 2013 Thursday 7 March 2013 Tuesday 19 March 2013 Tuesday 14 May 2013 Wednesday 15 May 2013 Wednesday 5 June 2013 Wednesday 12 June 2013 Wednesday 19 June 2013 Tuesday 9 July 2013 National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers Transport Salaried Staffs’ Association (TSSA) Department for Transport cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [SE] Processed: [02-10-2013 15:44] Job: 031524 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/031524/031524_o001_MP 130109 Corrected final.xml Ev 318 Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence Wednesday 9 January 2013 Members present: Mr Ian Davidson (Chair) Mike Crockart Pamela Nash Jim McGovern Mr Alan Reid Iain McKenzie Lindsay Roy ________________ Examination of Witness Witness: Professor Colin Harvey, School of Law, Queen’s University, Belfast, gave evidence. Q2067 Chair: Could I welcome you to the From my perspective, both as an academic and as an Committee and start off by asking you to introduce advocate of human rights, there is an important issue yourself and explain your specialism? here around continuity of human rights standards. Professor Harvey: My name is Professor Colin Human rights belong, if you like, to all people in Harvey from the school of law, Queen’s university, Scotland, and it is important to bear in mind that, Belfast. I also served as a human rights commissioner whatever happens constitutionally to Scotland, no in Northern Ireland from 2005 to 2011. One of the backward or regressive steps should be taken in areas that we focused on during that process was relation to the rights that people in Scotland enjoy. drafting a Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland, and Just to take the Belfast perspective here, bear in mind obviously we did grapple with issues around national that embedded within our Belfast agreement is the identity from a Northern Ireland perspective and how notion of equivalence of rights on the island of that related to human rights. In my own work, I have Ireland, so that whatever choice is made by people in focused over the years on the rights of migrants and Northern Ireland—to remain in the United Kingdom asylum seekers. I have written a book on seeking or to join the rest of Ireland—they will enjoy asylum in the UK, for example. My focus is primarily equivalence in relation to rights, whatever on the human rights dimensions of this—international, constitutional decision they happen to make. There is regional and national. also a network of international institutions there. A starting point in framing this for me, in the work Q2068 Chair: Could I start off by asking you, when that I have done, is to begin to see it internationally, new countries are created, what sort of considerations in the context of international human rights standards, have to be taken into account when citizenship is which are there and which speak to some of the issues being determined and awarded? we are dealing with today, and to how people should Professor Harvey: I would like to start by framing it be treated in the event of constitutional change. But I in the context of international human rights standards, suppose the question that arises from that is, in this of internationalising the conversation about borders, conversation that is being had, in the process itself citizenship and nationality. Internationalising the and what follows, who is ensuring that these human conversation and placing it in human rights terms is rights standards—these international human rights helpful in thinking about an issue that can be difficult, obligations—are being taken into account, that the complex and controversial. I say that because process is being adequately proofed to ensure that international human rights law places a focus on human rights and a rights-based approach are human rights, the rights of the human person and the informing what is done, so that all persons within the rights of all persons within the jurisdiction of the state.