ENTERPRISE AND LIFELONG LEARNING COMMITTEE Wednesday 6 December 2000 (Morning) £5.00 Parliamentary copyright. Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body 2000. Applications for reproduction should be made in writing to the Copyright Unit, Her Majesty‟s Stationery Office, St Clements House, 2-16 Colegate, Norwich NR3 1BQ Fax 01603 723000, which is administering the copyright on behalf of the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body. Produced and published in Scotland on behalf of the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body by The Stationery Office Ltd. Her Majesty‟s Stationery Office is independent of and separate from the company now trading as The Stationery Office Ltd, which is responsible for printing and publishing Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body publications. CONTENTS Wednesday 6 December 2000 Col. THE NEW ECONOMY ............................................................................................................................ 1420 EUROPEAN ISSUES .............................................................................................................................. 1447 RESEARCH SUPPORT ........................................................................................................................... 1455 EUROPE FAMILIARISATION PROGRAMME ................................................................................................. 1458 ENTERPRISE AND LIFELONG LEARNING COMMITTEE 30th Meeting 2000, Session 1 CONVENER *Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP) DEPU TY CONVENER *Miss Annabel Goldie (West of Scotland) (Con) COMMI TTEE MEMBERS Mr Duncan Hamilton (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) *Nick Johnston (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) *Mr John Home Robertson (East Lothian) (Lab) *Marilyn Livingstone (Kirkcaldy) (Lab) *George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD) *Ms Margo Mac Donald (Lothians) (SNP) *Mr Duncan McNeil (Greenoc k and Inverclyde) (Lab) *Dr Elaine Murray (Dumfries) (Lab) *Elaine Thomson (Aberdeen North) (Lab) *attended THE FOLLOWING ALSO ATTENDED : Mabel Hildebrand (Scottish Executive Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Department) Simon Wakefield (Scottish Parliament Information Centre) CLERK TO THE COMMITTE E Simon Watkins SENIOR ASSISTANT CLERK Dav id McLaren ASSISTANT CLERK Linda Orton LOC ATION Committee Room 4 1419 6 DECEMBER 2000 1420 Scottish Parliament The New Economy Enterprise and Lifelong Learning The Convener: The next item is the inquiry into Committee the impact of the new economy. Committee members are to update and report on the case Wednesday 6 December 2000 studies that have been undertaken. Elaine Thomson‟s report was circulated this morning, and (Morning) members should have a copy. Elaine Thomson (Aberdeen North) (Lab): I am [THE CONV ENER opened the meeting at 10:05] sorry about the report‟s late arrival. The Convener (Alex Neil): We have received The Convener: We had planned to cover the apologies, which are mainly for lateness. George textiles report first, but I hope that Margo Lyon has been held up—he is at a fisheries MacDonald will arrive later to talk about that, as briefing in Glasgow. Duncan Hamilton, the new Fergus Ewing is not here. George Lyon is not here Scottish National Party member of the committee, either, so I ask Nick Johnston to talk about the has been held up at the same briefing. Margo report on the Alba Centre. That has caught him MacDonald has a hospital appointment, but hopes out. to be here by about 10.30. We think that Annabel Nick Johnston: The visit was so long ago that I Goldie has also been delayed. cannot remember what we did, but I will talk about Marilyn Livingstone (Kirkcaldy) (Lab): the report. Annabel is en route. The Convener: A paper has been circulated. The Convener: This is the last meeting that Unless Nick has anything to add, we will move to John Home Robertson will attend. I put on record questions. Having read the paper, do members our gratitude for his attendance and contribution have questions to add to what is in the paper? during the past weeks. It has been six weeks, has Nick Johnston: The only issue to which I would it not? like to draw attention is the impression that all the Mr John Home Robertson (East Lothian) people who we met at the Alba Centre gave, (Lab): Rather less than that. which is that there is a growing problem in Scotland of a lack of skills in electronics. That The Convener: I had better not mention the impression overarched the whole day. The name of John Home Robertson‟s replacement problem does not concern only graduates—it goes until the Parliament formally approves the further back than that, to primary school, where a appointment, because the Presiding Officer will change of culture is needed to get children tick me off. thinking about engineering as a worthwhile career. The first item is to decide whether to take item 6 I do not know whether it is an Edinburgh attitude, in private. Members may remember that we but getting one‟s hands dirty—even in agreed some months ago to establish the fuel electronics—is considered inferior to becoming a inquiry on the basis that we would have bilateral doctor, schoolteacher or lawyer. meetings with all the oil companies and the Petrol Mr Home Robertson: And getting one‟s hands Retailers Association. The oil companies agreed even dirtier. to that, provided that the information that they disclosed was kept in commercial confidence. Nick Johnston: When I read the paper, I was Until we discuss what we want to make public, it conscious that that lack of skills was mentioned, would be appropriate for the committee to keep its but that it was not stressed as much as the people side of the bargain with the oil companies. That is at the Alba Centre would have liked. Having said why we should take item 6 in private. We will that, the Alba Centre was a super place and our decide later what we want to publish as part of the visit was very worth while. It revealed that som e inquiry. Do members agree? extremely exciting things are happening. I would be delighted to rack my brain for things that I can Members indicated agreement. add to what is said in the paper. Nick Johnston (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): Elaine Thomson: Did the people at the Alba Under your predecessor, convener, I ruled myself Centre say anything about which training and out of the fuel price inquiry, because of my educational activities are most effective in commercial interests. I will leave the meeting developing the skills that are required by when we reach item 6. electronics industries? Are we talking about skills The Convener: Okay. Thank you, Nick. at technician level or at a higher level? 1421 6 DECEMBER 2000 1422 Nick Johnston: We are talking about skills at a companies would rather put people through an higher level than technician level. The people at apprenticeship than take on people who have the Alba Centre said that they can take graduates degrees in engineering? Another issue that was from almost any discipline and train them up within raised was whether more master of science places three or four years. However, they would rather should be funded at universities. Why did you take on graduates who they could use single out MSc places, rather than PhD places? straightaway. Cadence Design Systems imports Were you thinking of co-operative awards with software engineers from India, in particular. It is industry? very hard to pin down the problem and I do not Nick Johnston: That was part of it. Elaine have sufficient knowledge of the university sector Murray hit the nail on the head when she asked to do that. The point that was made to us was that about companies preferring apprentices. It seems the curriculum that is taught in universities is not that the best route in electronics industries is to go suited to today‟s electronic business age. Perhaps in as an apprentice, learn on the job and bolt when we come on to the lifelong learning agenda qualifications on. I cannot remember where I we can look back to see where we have gone heard it, but it was mentioned that an MSc is the wrong. icing on the cake, because it is a professional Elaine Thomson: Do electronics companies degree that one can achieve without going through feel that, once they have got hold of graduates, the four years of a normal degree. The idea was the right infrastructure and support exist to enable that somebody could apply their practical them to train staff at work? Do they do most of experience in an MSc. their training in-house? You may not have gone into that with them. 10:15 Nick Johnston: Most training is done in-house, Dr Murray: My knowledge of MScs is that they although the Institute of System Level Integration are a postgraduate qualification—people do a offers an MSc in system level integration. Getting four-year degree course followed by a one-year the right calibre of people to teach on the salaries MSc, which is usually a research degree. Was that that universities offer is very difficult. It requires what the organisations were considering? extreme altruists who are prepared to drop from salaries of £100,000 a year to £30,000 or £40,000. Nick Johnston: No. We are talking about giving people who have practical experience that Dr Elaine Murray (Dumfrie s) (Lab): My point is equates to bachelor of science level—although I related to that. I am interested in some of the do not think that there is any direct equivalence— issues that Nick Johnston raised. I speak as the extra MSc year. someone who tries continually to persuade her eldest son that he wants to be an engineer so that Dr Murray: Do you mean a final year at he can look after his old mum when she gets university? decrepit. Nick Johnston: I have a number of friends who The Convener: You know what they used to are doing masters of business administration. The say about engineers—“Two weeks ago I couldn‟t MBA is not always a postgraduate qualification— spell, it and now I am one” one does not necessarily have to be a graduate.