First Session • Thlrty·Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba STANDING COMMITTEE on PUBLIC UTILITIES and NATURAL RESOURCES 39 Elizabeth 11 Chairman Mr. Ben Sveinson Constituencyof La Verendrye VOL. XXXIX No. 6 ·10 a.m., THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 15, 1990 MG-8048 ISSN 0713·9454 Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer, Province of Manitoba MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME CONSTITUENCY PARTY. ALCOCK, Reg Os borne Liberal ASHTON, Steve Thompson NDP BARRETT, Becky Wellington NDP CARR, James Crescentwood Liberal CARSTAIRS, Sharon River Heights Liberal CERILLI, Marianne Radisson NDP CHEEMA, Gulzar The Maples Liberal CHOMIAK, Dave Kildonan NDP CONNERY, Edward, Hon. Portage la Prairie PC CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose PC DACQUAY, Louise Seine River PC DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin-Russell PC DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk NDP DOER, Gary Concordia NDP DOWNEY, James, Hon. Arthur-Virden PC DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. Steinbach PC. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. Riel PC EDWARDS, Paul St. James Liberal ENNS, Harry, Hon. Lakeside PC ERNST, Jim, Hon. Charleswood PC EVANS,Ciif lnterlake NDP EVANS, Leonard S. Brandon East NDP FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo PC FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. Springfield PC FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley NDP GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface Liberal GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa PC HARPER, Elijah Rupertsland NDP HELWER, EclwardR. Gimli PC HICKES, George Point Douglas NDP LAMOUREUX, Kevin lnkster Liberal LATHLIN, Oscar The Pas NDP LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert PC MALOWAY, Jim Elm wood NDP MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. Morris PC MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows NDP McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek PC McCRAE, James, Hon. Brandon West PC MciNTOSH, Linda Assiniboia PC MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East PC NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. Rossmere PC ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. Pembina PC PENNER, Jack, Hon. Emerson PC PLOHMAN, John Dauphin NDP PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet PC REID, Daryl Transcona NDP REIMER, Jack Niakwa PC RENDER, Shirley St. Vital PC ROCAN, Denis, Hon. Gladstone PC ROSE, Bob Turtle Mountain PC SANTOS, Conrad Broadway NDP STEFANSON, Eric Kirkfield Park PC STORIE, Jerry Flin Flon NDP SVEINSON, Ben La Verendrye PC VODREY, Rosemary Fort Garry PC WASYLYCIA-LEIS, Judy St. Johns NDP WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River NDP LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC UTILITIES AND NATURAL RESOURCES Thursday, November 15, 1990 TIME-10 a.m. for the years ended March 31 , 1989, and March 31 , CHAIRMAN-Mr. Ben Svelnson (La Verendrye) 1990, respectively. I would hope that we can move through the 1989 report rather quickly, although we 11 6 ATTENDANCE- -QUORUM- will permit questions as wide-ranging on that report Members of the Committeepresent: as you wish. Hon. Mr. Neufeld We will also review some of the major issues and Messrs. Carr, Doer, Gaudry, Hickes, challenges of the corporation and provide an Laurendeau, McAipine, Reimer, Mrs. overview of Manitoba Hydro's submission of its Render, Messrs. Rose, Sveinson capital project plans for the review of the Public Utilities Board. APPEARING: A. Brian Ransom, Chairman, The Manitoba The Manitoba Hydro Act confers upon the board Hydro-Electric Board of directors of the corporation the authority to carry out such functions as may be necessary to provide Robert B. Brennan, President and Chief for the continuance of a supply of power adequate Executive Officer, The Manitoba Hydro­ for the needs of the province and to promote Electric Board economy and efficiency in the generation, Ralph 0. Lambert, Executive Vice­ distribution, supply and use of power. President, The Manitoba Hydro-Electric Board lt was on this basis that the board of Manitoba Hydro pursued several initiatives during 1989. The MATTERS UNDER DISCUSSION: most significant of these initiatives was a 1 ,000 The Annual Reports of The Manitoba megawatt power sale to Ontario Hydro. The Hydro-Electric Board for the years ended agreement for the power sale was approved by March 31, 1989, and March 31 , 1990. Cabinet based on the recommendations of The Manitoba Hydro-Electric Board and the Manitoba *** Energy Authority with the knowledge that the agreement was subject to conditions allowing for a Mr. Chairman: I call the Standing Committee on comprehensive public and environmental hearing Public Utilities and Natural Resources to order to process. consider the Annual Reports of The Manitoba Hydro-Electric Board for the fiscal year ended The Public Utilities Board is now deliberating on March 31 , 1989 and March 31, 1990. I would invite its findings afteran intensive public hearing and will the Honourable Minister to make his opening be reporting on those findings by the end of this statement and to introduce the staff present today. month. The environmental review process will also provide the opportunityfor substantial public input. * (1005) I will make my commitment at this time to the Hon. Harold Neufeld (Minister responsible for committee. If they wish to meet with the Manitoba The Manitoba Hydro Act): Thank you, Mr. Hydro after the Public Utilities Board makes its Chairman and members of the Committee. The last recommendations, we will agree to meet. time we appeared before the committee was in At this time I would like to introduce Mr. Brian October of 1988 at which time we reviewed the 36th Ransom, the Chairman of Manitoba Hydro. and 37th Annual Report of the corporation. lt is our intention at this session of the committeeto present Mr. A. Brlan Ransom (Chairman, The Manitoba the 38th and 39th Annual Reportsof the corporation Hydro-Electric Board): Thank you, Mr. Minister 107 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 15, 1990 and Mr. Chairman. Before I begin, I would like to unable to covertheir own costs of intervening before introduceto the members of the committee some of the Public Utilities Board are able to request funding the members of the Hydro-Electric Board who are of the Public Utilities Board which is ultimately paid here today. We have Dr. Ed Kuffel, Darlene by Manitoba Hydro, so this process provides an Hildebrand, Ken Patino, Rod Beaudry and Jack opportunity for public interest groups to make a very Parkins. Normally our Hydro board meets today, so thorough presentation. Consultants were brought in we were able to conclude our business last night, from across the country and from the United States and we have invitedsome of the members to come to participate in those hearings, and the Hydro board and benefit from the comments, questions and believes that this is a very major and necessary debate that take place before this committee. initiative that has been taken in the public interest. Mr. Chairman, I would like to touch on a few major One of the features of our capital plan deals with policy issues which the board of Manitoba Hydro demand-side management, and I think it is perhaps has dealt with over the course of the past two years worth making a comment here, because the board since we had the opportunity to last appear before of Manitoba Hydro played a major role in this committee.The first of those issues that I would determining that the corporation would adopt as a like to mention and deal with is the decision by The minimum a demand-side management target of 1 00 Manitoba Hydro-Electric Board to request the megawatts and 500 gigawatt hours of energy opportunity to appear before the Public Utilities targeted for the year 2001 , the rationale being that Board to have an objective review conductedof our 1 00 megawatts is approximately one year's load long-term capital plans. growth for Manitoba, and so the objective is to be As the members of the committee will be aware, able to defer subsequent construction of another there are a number of issues that are before Hydro, plant by at least one year. before this committee and the Public Utilities Board I think many members of the committee will be having to do with the proposed 1 ,000 megawattsale aware of the growing interest in demand-side to Ontario, the attendantconstructi on of Conawapa, management programs amongst the public and a demand-side management program and diversity amongst utilities as well. I think this was a major agreements with two U.S. utilities, as well as a life decision taken on the partof Manitoba Hydro, and I assurance program for our coal-burning thermal would stress again that we regard this target as stations. being a minimum for the year 2001. * (1010) Another significant policy question that the board The total investment that would be projected in addressed was the long-standing grievances of as-spent dollars for these initiatives is in the range communities and Native bands with respect to the of $6 billion to take placeover the next 1 0 years, and flooding of the Grand Rapids Forebay that took under those circumstances, it was the judgment of place in the mid-1 960s. That flooding had the board of Hydro that only by submitting those necessitated the movement of the Chemawawin plans to an objective review by the Public Utilities people from the old post to the present site at Board could we, the Government and indeed the Easterville. lt had involved some movement of public of Manitoba be certain that whatever people at Moose Lake and certainly extensive decisions are ultimately taken are in their best destruction and damage to the natural environment interests. in the Saskatchewan River delta. The Government, as you know, acceded to our Over the years the people of those communities request and passed an Order-in-Council last have not been satisfied that Government and Hydro February which empowered the Public Utilities have dealt with them on a fair and equitable basis, Board to hold those hearings. We had some 19days so a little over a year ago the Hydro-Electric Board, of formal hearings plus another two days of final with the support of the Government, made the argument.