BRITISH-IRISH INTER- PARLIAMENTARY BODY COMHLACHT IDIR- PHARLAIMINTEACH NA BREATAINE AGUS NA hÉIREANN _________________________ TWENTY-FIFTH PLENARY CONFERENCE 25 to 26 November 2002 Worsley Park, Manchester _______________________ OFFICIAL REPORT (Final Revised Edition) (Produced by the British-Irish Parliamentary Reporting Association) Any queries regarding this report should be addressed to: The Secretary British-Irish Parliamentary Reporting Association Room 248 Parliament Buildings Stormont BELFAST BT4 3XX Telephone: 028 90521135 E-mail: [email protected] Steering Committee Mr David Winnick MP } Co-Chairmen Mr Brendan Smith TD } Mr Kevin McNamara MP Mr Séamus Kirk TD Mr Michael Mates MP Mr Jim O’Keeffe TD Mr Murray Tosh MSP Mr Donald Gelling MLC Members and Associate Members Attending Mr Barnes MP Mr Hume MP Mr Morgan TD Mr Brady TD Senator Hayes Senator O’Brien Mr Brennan MP Ms Keaveney TD Mr O’Brien MP Rt Hon the Lord Brooke of Mr Killeen TD Mr O’Keeffe TD Sutton Mandeville CH Mr Kirk TD Senator O’Rourke Mrs Burnham AM Mr Lenihan TD Mr Öpik MP Mr Crawford TD Dr Lloyd AM Mr Pattison TD Mr Devins TD Mr Llwyd MP Mr Robertson MP The Lord Dubs Senator McHugh Ms Robison MSP Mr Ellis TD Mrs McKenna CBE MP Mr Sherlock TD Mr English TD Mr McMahon MSP Mr B Smith TD Mr Ennis MP Mr McNamara MP Mr I Smith MSP Mr Gelling MLC Rt Hon Andrew Mackay MP The Lord Smith Mr Glennon TD Mr Mackinlay MP Mr Stone MSP The Lord Glentoran CBE DL Senator Mansergh Mr Thomas MP Mr Griffiths AM Dr Marek AM Mr Tosh MSP Mr Grieve MP Mr Mates MP Mr Walter MP Rt Hon Sir Brian Mawhinney Mr Winnick MP MP Mr Melding AM Senator Mooney Officials Joint Clerks Ms Alda Barry, British Clerk Mr Jim Mulkerrins, Irish Clerk Clerks of the Devolved Institutions Scotland Mr Craig French Wales Mr Peter Kellam Northern Ireland Mr John Ross Committee Clerks to the Body Committee A: Sovereign Matters Mr Colm McGrady Mr Huw Yardley Committee B: European Affairs Mr Mike Clark Ms Marianne Bolger Committee C: Economic Mr Colm McGrady Mr John Whatley Committee D: Environment & Social Dr Christopher Johnston Ms Marianne Bolger Media Adviser Mr Mike Burns British-Irish Parliamentary Reporting Association Mr Simon Burrowes Ms Muireann Crowley Ms Jill Davies Mr Gerry Dunne Mr Andy Philip Ms Vivien Wilson 25 November 2002 BRITISH-IRISH I am delighted to welcome Mr Gareth Thomas MP INTERPARLIAMENTARY who has replaced Ms Gillian Merron MP. The following Members have tendered apologies: Mr BODY John Battle MP, Mr Joe Benton MP, Mr Henry Bellingham MP, Ms Jean Corston MP, Ms Helen Jackson MP, Mr Elfyn Llydd MP, Lord Temple-Morris, Ms Liz O’Donnell TD and Senator Shane Ross. COMHLACHT In accordance with rule 2(a), the following Associate Members have accepted the invitation of the Steering IDIR-PHARLAIMINTEACH Committee to assume the powers and responsibilities of NA BREATAINE AGUS NA Members for the whole of this sitting: on the British side, HÉIREANN Mr Brennan MP; Mr Ennis MP; Mr Grieve MP; Mr Robertson MP; and Mr Thomas MP. The Scottish associates attending are Ms Robison MSP and Mr Stone MSP. 25TH PLENARY SESSION The debates of this sitting will be recorded by Hansard staff of the member institutions under the direction of the British-Irish Parliamentary Reporting Association (BIPRA). This is the first time that the Body and the 25 November 2002 Association have collaborated. We are grateful to the Association for its kind offer to undertake the work, and we understand that it expects to be able to provide transcripts of the proceedings within two weeks. The Body met at 9.35 am. I should inform Members that a group photograph will Co-Chairman (Mr Winnick): Welcome to the twenty- be taken in the foyer at approximately 3.30 pm. That is fifth plenary conference. I have some brief announcements all that I have to say for the moment so I will hand over to make. First, I would remind everyone to turn off their to my Co-Chairman. pagers, bleepers and mobile phones while they are in the room. Secondly, I would remind Members that the pro- ceedings of the Body do not attract parliamentary privilege. I should like to welcome new Members to our deliberations. Some are completely new and others are old friends. The Irish Membership has been reconstituted following the Irish general election. I am pleased to inform the Body that my good friend, Brendan Smith, has been appointed as Irish Co-Chairman. I am also pleased to announce that Seamus Kirk, who is a long serving member of the Body, has been appointed as vice-chairman and Jim O’Keeffe, who served on the Body in its early years, has also been appointed vice-chairman. I am also pleased to welcome back to the Body Mr Seymour Crawford TD, Mr John Ellis TD, Senator Brian Hayes, Ms Cecelia Keaveney TD, Mr Tony Killeen TD, Mr Conor Lenihan TD, Senator Paschal Mooney, Senator Francis O’Brien, Senator Shane Ross and Mr Seamus Pattison TD (Deputy Speaker [Leas-Cheann Comhairle]of Dáil Éireann) who was a member of the Body in the early years. I am also pleased to welcome as new Members of the Body: Mr Johnny Brady TD, Dr Jerry Cowley TD, Dr Jimmy Devins TD, Mr Damien English TD, Mr Jim Glennon TD, Senator Joe McHugh, Senator Martin Mansergh, Mr Arthur Morgan TD, Ms Liz O’Donnell TD, Senator Mary O’Rourke, Senator Brendan Ryan and Mr Joe Sherlock TD. 1 25 November 2002 ADOPTION OF PROPOSED RECENT POLITICAL DEVELOPMENTS PROGRAMME OF BUSINESS Co-Chairman (Mr Winnick): The first major item of Co-Chairman (Mr Smith): Thank you, Mr Winnick, business is the motion on recent political developments. for your warm welcome. I look forward to working with It would be helpful if Members who wish to speak in the all Members of the Body during the next few years. The debate and who have not already given their names would revised programme of business has been circulated, and tell Ms Barry and Mr Mulkerrins as quickly as possible. I beg to move that it be adopted. Last night the Steering Committee discussed whether Mr Mackinlay MP: Will we have an opportunity to there should be a time limit on speeches. The consensus discuss future business and to look ahead to the next was that there should be a maximum limit of four plenary session? For example, I believe that Tony Blair minutes, which could be stretched to five minutes, has never addressed this Body. I realise that the Chairmen although I probably should not tell you that. cannot necessarily arrange that, but might we have time, In previous debates, Members have been reluctant to during the next two days, to discuss possible future speak in the first 15 or 30 minutes. That might not business, future invitees and the direction of the Body? happen today, as all British and Irish parliamentarians Co-Chairman (Mr Winnick): There will be such an will wish to speak on such a controversial issue as the opportunity tomorrow morning when we discuss major political developments. It will be unfair if some Committee reports and alternative business, and I hope Members are allowed to speak for eight, 10 or 12 minutes, that you will be able to stay for that, Mr Mackinlay. If I while others have to squeeze their speeches into two tell the Prime Minister that you would like to see him minutes in the last hour. here, that would be the best guarantee I could imagine Members, therefore, should indicate that they wish to that he will never attend. [Laughter]. speak, and we will try to be as flexible as possible. Programme of Business agreed. However, Members should try to keep their remarks to four to five minutes. 9.45 am This is the perfect opportunity for Members to say that they wish to speak, but that does not mean that they cannot do so later. Neither the proposer of the motion nor the colleague who gives the winding-up speech at the end of the debate will be subject to the four-minute restriction. I remind everyone to turn on their microphones prior to speaking. The Chairman of Committee A (Mr O’Keeffe TD): I beg to move That the Body reaffirms its support for the Good Friday Agreement; is saddened at the suspension of the devolved institutions in Northern Ireland; welcomes the determination of the two Governments to press ahead with all aspects of the agreement; calls on all political parties to redouble their efforts towards the restoration of the institutions which have benefited all the people of these islands; and urges all involved parties to continue their efforts to secure an early resumption of the Northern Ireland institutions. I am delighted to return as a member of the Body. I recognise some of those who joined the opening meeting of the Body in Committee Room 15 in the House of Commons in 1990. After a long break, I am pleased to see the old Members again and to meet the new ones. The Body is meeting at a time of great uncertainty in the Northern Ireland peace process. For that reason, this is a most significant meeting, and the signal and the message that emerge from it will be highly important. The Northern Ireland institutions have been suspended, which is a clear regression of the peace process. None of us would wish for that. However, it is important to bear 2 25 November 2002 Recent Political Developments in mind that although the institutions have been suspended, Ireland; any future Northern Ireland must be based on the agreement has not.