Cofnod y Trafodion The Record of Proceedings Y Pwyllgor Cyllid The Finance Committee 21/09/2016 Agenda’r Cyfarfod Meeting Agenda Trawsgrifiadau’r Pwyllgor Committee Transcripts Cynnwys Contents 5 Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datgan Buddiannau Introductions, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of Interest 5 Papurau i’w Nodi Papers to Note 6 Y Bil Treth Trafodiadau Tir a Gwrthweithio Osgoi Trethi Datganoledig (Cymru): Sesiwn Dystiolaeth 1 Land Transaction Tax and Anti-avoidance of Devolved Taxes (Wales) Bill: Evidence Session 1 42 Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd o Weddill y Cyfarfod Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to Resolve to Exclude the Public from the Remainder of the Meeting Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle y mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad. The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript. 21/09/2016 Aelodau’r pwyllgor yn bresennol Committee members in attendance Mike Hedges Llafur Bywgraffiad|Biography Labour Steffan Lewis Plaid Cymru Bywgraffiad|Biography The Party of Wales Eluned Morgan Llafur Bywgraffiad|Biography Labour Nick Ramsay Ceidwadwyr Cymreig Bywgraffiad|Biography Welsh Conservatives Mark Reckless UKIP Cymru Bywgraffiad|Biography UKIP Wales David Rees Llafur Bywgraffiad|Biography Labour Simon Thomas Plaid Cymru (Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor) Bywgraffiad|Biography The Party of Wales (Committee Chair) Eraill yn bresennol Others in attendance Mark Drakeford Aelod Cynulliad, Llafur (Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Bywgraffiad|Biography Gyllid a Llywodraeth Leol) Assembly Member, Labour (The Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government) Andrew Hewitt Rheolwr Polisi, Llywodraeth Cymru Policy Manager, Welsh Government Gareth McMahon Cyfreithiwr y Llywodraeth, Ll.ywodraeth Cymru Government Lawyer, Welsh Government Swyddogion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn bresennol National Assembly for Wales officials in attendance 3 21/09/2016 Cath Hunt Clerc Clerk Lakshmi Narain Cynghorydd Adviser Georgina Owen Dirprwy Glerc Deputy Clerk Christian Tipples Y Gwasanaeth Ymchwil Research Service Joanest Varney- Uwch-gynghorydd Cyfreithiol Jackson Senior Legal Adviser Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:15. The meeting began at 09:15. Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datgan Buddiannau Introductions, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of Interest [1] Simon Thomas: Bore da a Simon Thomas: Good morning and chroeso i gyfarfod o’r Pwyllgor Cyllid, welcome to the meeting of the lle’r rŷm ni’n cyfarfod heddiw yn Finance Committee, where we’re bennaf i drafod y Mesur trafodiadau meeting today specifically to discuss tir a gwrthweithio osgoi trethi the Land Transaction Tax and Anti- datganoledig. Fe fyddwn ni’n derbyn avoidance of Devolved Taxes (Wales) tystiolaeth gan y Gweinidog mewn Bill. We will be taking evidence from munud. Cyn i ni wneud hynny, rwyf the Minister in a minute. Before we jest yn eich atgoffa bod cyfieithu i do that, just to remind you that gael ar sianel 1 ac fe gewch chi interpretation is available on channel glywed y sain wreiddiol ar sianel 0; i 1 and the floor language is on roi’ch ffonau symudol ar ‘tawel’, os channel 0; please put your mobiles gwelwch yn dda; ac yn gofyn, ar on ‘silent’; and ask you, at the ddechrau’r broses o edrych ar y beginning of looking at this Bill, Mesur, a oes unrhyw fuddiannau gan whether there are any interests to Aelodau i’w datgan. Pawb yn hapus, declare. Everyone is content, then. felly. 4 21/09/2016 Papurau i’w Nodi Papers to Note [2] Simon Thomas: Yn gyntaf oll, Simon Thomas: First, then, could I a gaf i jest ofyn i aelodau’r pwyllgor just ask members of the committee nodi’r papurau sydd wedi’u cyflwyno? to note the papers that have been Mae gennym lythyr oddi wrth yr submitted? We have a letter from the Ysgrifennydd Cabinet dros Gyllid a Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Llywodraeth Leol yn dilyn ein craffu Local Government following our ni ar y gyllideb atodol. Hefyd, mae scrutiny on the supplementary gennym lythyr gan y Pwyllgor Busnes budget. Also, we have a letter from parthed—llythyr gan y Llywydd, fe the Business Committee regarding—a ddylwn i ddweud—y Bil Treth letter from the Llywydd, I should Trafodiadau Tir a Gwrthweithio Osgoi say—regarding the Land Transaction Trethi Datganoledig (Cymru) ynglŷn â Tax and Anti-avoidance of Devolved natur hawliau dynol, a byddwn ni’n Taxes (Wales) Bill regarding human dod at hynny yn ystod y drafodaeth y rights, which we’ll come to during bore yma. Ac mae gennym ddau set o the discussion this morning. And we gofnodion y ddau gyfarfod a gawsom have two sets of minutes from the cyn toriad yr haf. A ydy pawb yn previous meetings that we had before hapus i nodi’r papurau? Rwy’n gweld the summer recess. Is everyone bod pawb yn hapus. Diolch yn fawr. content to note the papers? I see that everyone is content. Thank you. 09:17 Y Bil Treth Trafodiadau Tir a Gwrthweithio Osgoi Trethi Datganoledig (Cymru): Sesiwn Dystiolaeth 1 Land Transaction Tax and Anti-avoidance of Devolved Taxes (Wales) Bill: Evidence Session 1 [3] Simon Thomas: Felly, fe [4] Simon Thomas: So, we’ll now wnawn ni droi at graffu ar y Bil. A gaf turn to scrutiny of the Bill. Could I i groesawu Mark Drakeford, yr welcome Mark Drakeford, the Cabinet Ysgrifennydd Cabinet dros Gyllid a Secretary for Finance and Local Llywodraeth Leol? A gaf i ofyn yn Government? Could I ask him to gyntaf i Mr Drakeford gyflwyno’r introduce the officials who are with swyddogion sydd gydag ef? him? [5] Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros The Cabinet Secretary for Finance 5 21/09/2016 Gyllid a Llywodraeth Leol (Mark and Local Government (Mark Drakeford): Diolch yn fawr, Drakeford): Thank you very much, Gadeirydd. Gyda fi y bore yma mae Chair. With me this morning is Andrew Hewitt, rheolwr polisi ar Andrew Hewitt, policy manager for gyfer y Bil, a Gareth McMahon, the Bill, and Gareth McMahon, Welsh cyfreithiwr yn Llywodraeth Cymru. Government lawyer. [6] Simon Thomas: Diolch yn fawr. Simon Thomas: Thank you. We’ll Awn ni’n syth ati, felly, i ofyn move on, then, to ask questions on cwestiynau ar sail y Mesur rŷch chi the basis of the Bill that you’ve wedi’i gyflwyno i’r Cynulliad. A gaf i introduced to the Assembly. Could I ofyn yn gyntaf: a fedrwch chi grynhoi ask you first: could you summarise pwrpas y Bil hwn, ond yn fwy penodol the purpose of this Bill, but more hefyd, a fedrwch chi esbonio pam specifically again, could you explain rŷch chi’n dewis cyflwyno Bil i why you’ve chosen to introduce this gyflwyno rhywbeth yn lle y dreth Bill to displace the stamp duty, and stamp, i bob pwrpas, a pham nad why you haven’t chosen, for ydych chi wedi, er enghraifft, dewis example, another option of not opsiwn arall o beidio cael y dreth having this tax and going for yma a mynd am drethi gwahanol? different kinds of taxes? This is a tax Mae hwn yn dreth ar, os liciwch chi, on transactions, if you like—a tax on drafodiadau—treth ar fusnes economic business, rather than a tax economaidd, yn hytrach na threth ar on wealth, for example. You have a gyfoeth, er enghraifft. Mae gyda chi range of abilities in terms of business nawr rychwant o alluoedd ynglŷn â tax, council tax and so on. Why threthi busnes, trethi tai cyngor ac decide to continue with this kind of ati. Pam penderfynu cario ymlaen â’r taxation? ffordd yma o drethu? [7] Mark Drakeford: Diolch yn Mark Drakeford: Thank you, Chair. fawr, Gadeirydd. Jest i ddweud i Just to say to start— ddechrau— [8] the key purpose of the Bill is to respond to the circumstances created by the Wales Act 2014, which make it clear that, sometime in April 2018, the Westminster Government will turn off stamp duty land tax as far as Wales is concerned. Of course, you are absolutely right to say that there are a whole range of things that a Welsh Government could propose in those circumstances. You could propose not to replace the tax at all and live with the £240 million or so that you wouldn’t have as a result, or you could try and design something very different to the system that is being turned off. 6 21/09/2016 We’ve not decided to do either of those things. For me, the key— [9] Simon Thomas: Did you even consider that, or did you just decide that it wasn’t a consideration? [10] Mark Drakeford: All those options were there to begin with and I’ll try and explain just why we decided not to do things differently—well, first of all, why we decided not just to do without the money. Because there will be some arguments that would say that not having stamp duty land tax in Wales would create different sets of circumstances in property and land transactions and make Wales a more attractive place to carry out such transactions and so on. That was not my conclusion, or the conclusion of the Government. The key purpose of the Bill, for me, is to ensure that a flow of revenue for core public services in Wales is continued when stamp duty land tax no longer applies to Wales. I thought that was the first duty the Government had: to ensure that continuing flow of revenue for those purposes.