1 COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY, U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, WASHINGTON, D.C. INTERVIEW OF: DON MCGAHN Friday, June 4, 2021 Washington, D.C. The interview in the above matter was held in Room 2141, Rayburn House Office Building, commencing at 10:05 a.m. 2 Present: Representatives Nadler, Jackson Lee, Johnson of Georgia, Raskin, Scanlon, Dean, Jordan, and Gaetz. Staff Present: Perry Apelbaum, Staff Director and Chief Counsel; Aaron Hiller, Deputy Chief Counsel; Arya Hariharan, Chief Oversight Counsel; Sarah Istel, Oversight Counsel; Priyanka Mara, Professional Staff Member; Cierra Fontenot, Chief Clerk; Kayla Hamedi, Deputy Press Secretary; Will Emmons, Professional Staff Member; Anthony Valdez, Professional Staff Member; Steve Castor, Minority General Counsel; James Lesinski, Minority Counsel; Betsy Ferguson, Minority Senior Counsel; Caroline Nabity, Minority Counsel; Michael Koren, Minority Senior Professional Staff; Darius Namazi, Minority Research Assistant; and Isabela Belchior, Legislative Director for Representative Matt Gaetz. 3 Appearances: For DON MCGAHN: ALLISON MCGUIRE WILLIAM A. BURCK QUINN EMANUEL URQUHART & SULLIVAN, LLP 1300 I Street NW Suite 900 Washington, D.C. 20005 For the DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE: ELIZABETH SHAPIRO, COUNSEL For the OFFICE OF THE FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP: SCOTT GAST 4 Mr. Hiller. All right. We'll go on the record. Good morning. I'm Aaron Hiller, deputy chief counsel for the House Judiciary Committee, and I have the honor of kicking things off today. This is a transcribed interview of former White House counsel, Donald F. McGahn. Would the witness please state his name and formal position at the White House for the record? Mr. McGahn. I'm Donald McGahn. I was the counsel to the President. Mr. Hiller. Thank you, sir. Thank you for appearing here today. I will now ask everyone who is here in the room to introduce themselves for the record. Remember to hit the "talk" button on your microphone. If you're not near a microphone, speak real loud for the reporters, starting with Chairman Nadler. Chairman Nadler. I am Jerrold Nadler, chairman of the Judiciary Committee. Ms. Istel. Sarah Istel, counsel for House Judiciary Committee. Mr. Hiller. Mr. Raskin, why don't we go with the members first? Mr. Raskin. Jamie Raskin, member of the Judiciary Committee. Mr. Johnson of Georgia. Hank Johnson, member of the Judiciary Committee. Ms. Dean. Madeleine Dean, member of the Judiciary Committee. Ms. Scanlon. Mary Gay Scanlon, member of the Judiciary Committee. Mr. Jordan. Jim Jordan, Fourth District of Ohio. Mr. Gaetz. Matt Gaetz, Judiciary Committee member. Mr. Hiller. And now the staff present, please. Mr. Apelbaum. Mr. Apelbaum. Perry Apelbaum, chief counsel, Judiciary Committee. Ms. Hariharan. Arya Hariharan, chief oversight counsel, majority staff. Mr. Emmons. Will Emmons, professional staff member, Judiciary staff. Ms. Mara. Priyanka Mara, professional staff member, majority staff. 5 Mr. Valdez. Anthony Valdez, professional staff member, majority staff. Mr. Gast. Scott Gast, Office of the Former President Trump. Ms. Belchior. Isabela Belchior. I'm with the office of Matt Gaetz. Mr. Koren. Michael Koren, professional staff with Mr. Jordan's staff. Mr. Lesinski. James Lesinski, Republican counsel. Mr. Castor. Steve Castor with the Republican staff. Ms. Ferguson. Betsy Ferguson, senior counsel, Republican staff. Ms. Nabity. Caroline Nabity, Republican staff member. Mr. Hiller. Thank you. Ms. Jackson Lee. Ms. Jackson Lee. Sheila Jackson Lee, representing Texas' 18th Congressional District. Thank you. Mr. Hiller. And here at the table. Mr. Burck. William Burck, counsel for Don McGahn. Ms. Shapiro. Elizabeth Shapiro, counsel for the Department of Justice. Ms. McGuire. Allison McGuire, counsel for Don McGahn. Mr. Hiller. Thank you, everybody. Mr. McGahn, before we begin in earnest, I'm going to set some context and go over the ground rules for the day. The committee first issued a subpoena for Mr. McGahn's testimony on April 22, 2019. Mr. McGahn was scheduled to testify before the committee on May 21, 2019, but did not appear at that time. Pursuant to House rules, in order to carry over our request for Mr. McGahn's testimony to the new Congress, the committee reissued its subpoena to Mr. McGahn on January 11, 2021. 6 In an attempt to resolve our suit to enforce that subpoena and compel that testimony, the committee has reached an accommodation with the Department of Justice concerning the format and scope of this interview. The full details of that agreement are on file with the court. I will not read the whole thing here, but I'll get to the salient details. We should discuss a few aspects of that arrangement before we begin. First, members of the public, the press, and Members of Congress who are not on the Judiciary Committee are not permitted to attend this interview. We will also try to keep the staff in this room to a minimum. And the chairman has instructed us to enforce this understanding. Second, under the strict terms of the agreement, only committee counsel, private counsel for Mr. McGahn, and counsel for the Department are permitted in this room. However, as a courtesy to the former President and at the request of Mr. McGahn's attorney, the chairman will permit counsel for President Trump to observe today as well. I am instructed to remind counsel for both the current administration and the former President that you are guests in this room, and I would ask that you please keep this in mind as we proceed. Out of fairness to our witness, we will try to keep any interruptions to a minimum. If counsel for Mr. McGahn or the Department would like to register an objection, we will pause the interview and attempt to resolve our disagreements quickly and quietly on the side. Third, at the conclusion of the interview, Mr. McGahn, the committee will make the transcript available to you and to the Department for review prior to its publication. The chairman notes that, in accordance with our agreement, all members and staff present are required to maintain the confidentiality of that transcript until we are able to make the document public. 7 Under the terms of our agreement with the Department, today's interview will cover the following topics, and I am quoting directly from the agreement here: one, information attributed to Mr. McGahn in the publicly available portions of the Mueller report and events that the publicly available portions of the Mueller report indicate involve Mr. McGahn; and, two, whether the Mueller report accurately reflected Mr. McGahn's statements to the Special Counsel's Office and whether those statements were truthful, unquote. To be clear, either side may ask Mr. McGahn any questions on any number of topics, but within that agreed-upon scope, the Department will not raise any privilege issues and the committee expects that Mr. McGahn will respond to questions in that frame with direct and complete answers. I'll pause for a moment to see if Mr. McGahn has any questions so far. Okay. Thank you. Just a little more official business, and then we'll begin. Our questioning will proceed in 60-minute rounds. The majority will ask questions for one hour, and then the minority will have the opportunity to ask questions for an equal period of time. We will repeat this back and forth for additional rounds as necessary. The interview will end at the discretion of the chair, provided that the majority and the minority have had an opportunity to question you for an equal amount of time. The majority and minority rounds are controlled by the chairman and ranking member, respectively. To maintain a clear record for the official reporter, there will be no interruptions by individuals or members not authorized to ask questions. It is also important that we do not talk over one another or interrupt each other if we can help it. Typically, we take a short break at the end of each hour of questioning, but if you need an additional break for 8 any reason, please let us know. We will also break between majority and minority rounds in order to allow for appropriate health and safety measures. As you can see, the physical layout of the room is a little different than it normally is, in order to comply with health and safety guidelines from the House Sergeant at Arms and the Attending Physician. Mr. McGahn, an official reporter is taking down everything we say to make a written record, so we ask that you give verbal responses to all questions. Do you understand this? This is a test. Mr. McGahn. Yes. Mr. Hiller. Thank you, sir. The committee encourages witnesses who appear for transcribed interviews to consult freely with counsel if they so choose. You understand that you may consult with your private counsel at any time, correct? Mr. McGahn. Yes. Mr. Hiller. Although this interview is not under oath, Federal law requires you to answer questions from Congress truthfully. Do you understand this? Mr. McGahn. Yes. Mr. Hiller. That same obligation applies to questions posed by congressional staff. Do you understand this as well? Mr. McGahn. Yes. Mr. Hiller. Witnesses who knowingly provide false testimony could be subject to criminal prosecution under 18 U.S.C., Section 1001. Do you understand this? Mr. McGahn. Yes. Mr. Hiller. Is there any reason you are unable to provide truthful answers to today's questions? 9 Mr. McGahn. No. Mr. Hiller. Thank you, sir. As I noted earlier, we anticipate that our questions will receive complete responses. If you do not understand a question, please say so. If you honestly do not know the answer to a question or do not remember it, please say so and give us your best recollection.