IICSA Inquiry Roman Catholic Church Investigation Wider Hearing 4 November 2019 1 Monday, 4 November 2019 1 members. That is, I was not attached to the 2 ( 10.30 am) 2 institutional church in any professional capacity such 3 THE CHAIR: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to Day 6 of 3 as being a member of a diocesan commission. 4 this public inquiry. Mr Saad? 4 "For this reason, I always felt able to express my 5 Statement of MS SUSIE HAYWARD (read) 5 views robustly and without any conflict of interest. 6 MR SAAD: Chair, the first witness will be read to you. 6 "I felt that most members of the NCSC, including the 7 That's the statement of Susie Hayward, whose statement 7 bishops, were somewhat constrained by their positions. 8 has been placed behind tab 3 of the blue folder that you 8 I felt there was a certain style of deference towards 9 have. 9 the hierarchy. 10 The URN for the statement is INQ001002, and will 10 "During my six years on the NCSC, there were three 11 also be published in full. 11 chairs and two interim periods where the vice-chairs, 12 She says this: 12 Bishop Declan Lang and Sister Jane Bertelsen, took the 13 "I was invited to join the NCSC at its inception in 13 reins. I felt this created difficulties of continuity. 14 2008. I served two office terms of three years each, up 14 Not many independent members stayed for a full term. 15 to early 2015. 15 I felt that, generally speaking, there was poor 16 "As a member of the NCSC, I consistently attended 16 communication between the chairs and the members. 17 quarterly meetings and also took on some leadership 17 A number of us had signed up to working on specific 18 roles. For example, in relation to policy and protocol 18 tasks in small groups, but there was a total lack of 19 matters following the Cumberlege Commission Report 2007. 19 cross-communication. I was also concerned that new 20 I also worked specifically with victim/survivor groups 20 chairs were unaware of full background details. There 21 and met these groups on a frequent basis. In 2009, 21 was little cross-referencing between the workings of 22 I was given the responsibility as link person for the 22 CSAS and the NCSC. I also sensed that the role of 23 Diocese of Westminster and Southwark and at a later date 23 the NCSC was not fully understood in the wider church. 24 for the religious community of the Salvatorians. As 24 "For example, there was some suspicion of the NCSC 25 a member of the NCSC, I was one of very few independent 25 by diocesan safeguarding commissions as to what its role Page 1 Page 2 1 was and its trustworthiness. 1 the healthy psychological and spiritual formation of 2 "The first NCSC chair, Bill Kilgallon, shortly 2 candidates for ordination. 3 before he resigned in December 2010, asked me to take 3 I was one of the main NCSC liaison persons with 4 responsibility for working on a document on seminary 4 survivor groups. This was a role in which I was 5 formation, for which I was very well equipped because of 5 wholeheartedly dedicated to creating an environment of 6 substantial experience. Another NCSC member, 6 trust between the NCSC and the groups. I was devastated 7 Elizabeth Hayes, joined me. Bishop Alan Hopes, 7 that this delicate relationship failed to flourish 8 auxiliary bishop in the Westminster Diocese, was 8 largely because of a lack of proper care of survivors by 9 delegate by the Bishops' Conference to work with us. 9 the hierarchy in general and the stances they took. For 10 I was surprised that Bishop Hopes would not communicate 10 example, as I recall, a case concerning a victim in the 11 with us directly but only through Bishop Declan Lang, 11 Portsmouth Diocese understandably led to a breakdown in 12 the NCSC vice-chair. 12 trust. I always sensed that correct behaviour was 13 "I was then surprised to hear that this task was 13 inhibited by a fear of litigation and liability." 14 being taken away from the NCSC to be worked on in-house 14 She goes on to speak about the Diocese of 15 with the seminaries. Therefore, I felt that this was an 15 Westminster: 16 example of hierarchical clericalism, not only because 16 "I became the link person between the NCSC and the 17 Bishop Hopes did not acknowledge my role, nor would he 17 Safeguarding Commission of the Westminster Diocese 18 reply to any communication by me on behalf of the NCSC, 18 in June 2009. What I write refers to serious concerns 19 but also because he ignored Bill Kilgallon's 19 that I had with Westminster from 2010 until the end of 20 instructions and the NCSC. I was one of the readers of 20 my NCSC term of office in early 2015. 21 the document on safeguarding and seminary formation. 21 "In June 2010, as a member of the implementation 22 There was the end product two years later. My reaction 22 group towards a culture of safeguarding, I met with 23 was that it was focused on the technicalities of 23 Carol Parry and Peter Turner, the safeguarding advisor 24 safeguarding procedures but, as I recall, failed to 24 for Westminster at the Bishops' Conference HQ in 25 address what I considered to be of vital importance in 25 Eccleston Square. There was a discussion around the Page 3 Page 4 1 (Pages 1 to 4) Epiq Europe Ltd www.epiqglobal.com Lower Ground 20 Furnival Street (+44)207 4041400 [email protected] London EC4A 1JS IICSA Inquiry Roman Catholic Church Investigation Wider Hearing 4 November 2019 1 role and title of safeguarding advisor officer. 1 I shan't read them out, but they will be published. 2 I recall asking Peter Turner how the communication was 2 Exhibit 1 is INQ004806. 3 between him, the safeguarding coordinator, Monsignor 3 She writes that she also personally informed 4 Harry Turner and the diocesan commission chair. 4 Bill Kilgallon with full details. 5 Peter Turner told me that Harry Turner would not speak 5 She says: 6 to him. 6 "I asked to meet Bill Kilgallon as a matter of 7 "This, he suggested, was because some time before -- 7 priority, especially as I understood that he was 8 I do not know precisely when -- he, Peter Turner, had 8 resigning as chair of the NCSC and I wanted to ask him 9 been critical of Harry Turner when he discovered that 9 to be in contact immediately with Archbishop Nichols 10 Harry Turner was going on holiday with a priest who 10 about this serious situation. Mr Kilgallon arranged to 11 Peter Turner considered inappropriate because 11 meet me after a meeting with survivor/victim groups at 12 Harry Turner was safeguarding coordinator. 12 the NAPAC offices at the Oval. At the end of 13 "From that moment on, as Mr Turner told me, the 13 the meeting, I saw him disappearing out of the building. 14 communication between the two had ceased. At some time 14 As a result, I chased him down the road as he hailed 15 later, Peter Turner told me he had no access to 15 a taxi and got into the taxi with him. During the taxi 16 reporting to Archbishop Vincent Nichols. Meetings were 16 ride, I asked Mr Kilgallon as a matter of urgency to be 17 held with the chair and Harry Turner, but he was not 17 in contact with Archbishop Nichols with regard to my 18 included. He did not even know when the meetings were 18 serious concerns. 19 held and he received no feedback. Also, he did not know 19 "This he promised to do before he came off as chair. 20 how finances were allocated. I understood that the 20 The next day, I had a long telephone conversation with 21 safeguarding office was under-resourced, both 21 him and I felt reassured. Shortly afterwards, 22 financially and in its staffing. 22 I received an email from Mr Kilgallon in which he said 23 "As a result of this information, I made a statement 23 he had been in contact with Archbishop Nichols and it 24 to the NCSC at its next meeting about these concerns." 24 was now in his hands. 25 The statement produces a number of exhibits. 25 "Over the following weeks, I heard nothing. I asked Page 5 Page 6 1 Rose Anderson, NCSC secretary, to check out whether 1 I replied that I didn't see why and that there is 2 Mr Kilgallon had written to Archbishop Nichols. 2 a simple solution, which is to make sure that the 3 I learnt eventually that he had and Archbishop Nichols' 3 diocese removed Harry Turner from his post and reordered 4 reply was being sent to Bishop Declan Lang. I do not 4 the safeguarding office. 5 recall ever receiving further information, even though 5 "As the link person for Westminster, the instruction 6 I was the link person who had brought this to 6 was that a link person should attend a diocesan 7 Mr Kilgallon's attention. 7 commission meeting at least once a year, meet the 8 "Until the end of my NCSC terms of office, 8 diocesan bishop once a year and liaise with the 9 I continued to chase up the dysfunctional situation 9 safeguarding office on a regular basis." 10 regarding the Westminster Safeguarding Office, plus the 10 She produces exhibit 4, which is INQ004809.