DÁIL ÉIREANN AN ROGHCHOISTE UM CHOMHSHAOL AGUS GHNÍOMHÚ AR SON NA HAERÁIDE SELECT COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENT AND CLIMATE ACTION Dé Céadaoin, 9 Meitheamh 2021 Wednesday, 9 June 2021 Tháinig an Romhchoiste le chéile ag 9.30 a.m. The Select Committee met at 9.30 a.m. Comhaltaí a bhí i láthair / Members present: Teachtaí Dála / Deputies Richard Bruton, Réada Cronin, Cormac Devlin, Alan Farrell, Darren O’Rourke, Christopher O’Sullivan, Neale Richmond,+ Ossian Smyth (Minister of State at the De- partment of the Environment, Climate and Communications), Jennifer Whitmore. + In éagmais le haghaidh cuid den choiste / In the absence for part of the meeting of Deputy Alan Farrell. I láthair / In attendance: Deputies Matt Carthy, Micheal Fitzmaurice, Micheal Healy-Rae, Michael Lowry, Denis Naughten, Richard O’Donoghue, Sean Sherlock and Duncan Smith Teachta / Deputy Brian Leddin sa Chathaoir / in the Chair. 1 SECA Business of Select Committee. Chairman: We are in public session. Members are reminded of the long-standing par- liamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I also remind members that they are only allowed to participate in this meeting if they are physically located on the Leinster House campus. In this regard, I ask that members, prior to making their contributions to the meeting, confirm they are on the grounds of the Lein- ster House campus. I note that the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Climate and Commu- nications, Deputy Ossian Smyth, is standing in for the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications, Deputy Eamon Ryan, today and that the Minister of State joins us from Government Buildings. Is that correct? Minister of State at the Department of Environment, Climate and Communications (Deputy Ossian Smyth): Good morning to the committee. I confirm that I am in Government Buildings. Chairman: I thank the Minister of State. I propose that at the end of the first two-hour session, the committee will go into private session for five minutes to consider an item of cor- respondence that has been received. Is that agreed? Agreed. Climate Action and Low Carbon Development (Amendment) Bill 2021: Committee Stage (Resumed) SECTION 6 Chairman: I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications, Deputy Ossian Smyth, to this meeting as we resume our consideration of Committee Stage of the Climate Action and Low Carbon Development (Amendment) Bill 2021. We are resuming on section 6, amendment No. 89 in the names of Deputies Mattie Mc- Grath, Nolan, Michael Collins, Danny Healy-Rae, Michael Healy-Rae and O’Donoghue, which has been already discussed with amendment No. 88. Is the amendment being moved? Deputy Michael Healy-Rae: Yes. I move amendment No. 89: In page 11, line 36, to delete “The Government” and substitute “Both Houses of the Oireachtas”. The amendment is self-explanatory. I could speak to every amendment, but I do not want to hog the meeting or delay it unnecessarily. Our amendment will be debated again at a later Stage. To facilitate the committee, I would like to deal with this amendment as quickly as possible. Chairman: I understand the Deputy wishes to withdraw the amendment, with leave to re- 2 9 JUNE 2021 introduce it on Report Stage. Am I correct? Deputy Michael Healy-Rae: Yes. I appreciate the Chairman allowing me to do that in order that we can carry out our role properly. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Chairman: As Deputy Fitzmaurice is not present we will move on. Amendment No. 90 not moved. Chairman: Amendments Nos. 91, 92 and 96 are related. Amendment No. 92 is a physical alternative to amendment No. 91. Amendments Nos. 91, 92 and 96 will be discussed together. I invite Deputy Whitmore to move amendment No. 91. Deputy Jennifer Whitmore: Amendment No. 138 is a similar amendment. Should it be taken in this grouping? Chairman: I am following the list provided to me. We will deal with amendment No. 138 when we come to it. Deputy Jennifer Whitmore: I move amendment No. 91: In page 12, line 7, to delete “A Minister” and substitute “The Government of Ireland and a Minister”. This amendment is in regard to a recent High Court ruling which essentially states that the Government is not a relevant body when it comes to climate legislation. Essentially, it pro- vides that a Minister constitutes a relevant body, but the Government does not. On that basis, a number of amendments have been tabled to provide for the insertion of a Minister and the Government of Ireland. The Government and the Minister should be operating as one and accountable as one. The rationale for these amendments is to ensure that the Minister and the Government are held accountable in regard to their performance under the climate Bill. Chairman: I invite the Minister of State, Deputy Ossian Smyth, to respond. Deputy Darren O’Rourke: May I move amendment No. 92? Chairman: The Deputy can move it when we come to it. Deputy Darren O’Rourke: It is grouped with amendment No. 91. Chairman: The amendments are being discussed together, following which the proposers of the amendments, as we come to them, can move and press them if they so wish. As I said, amendments Nos. 91, 92 and 96 are being discussed together. Deputy Darren O’Rourke: That is fine. The points have been made. I just wanted to move amendment No. 92. Chairman: I thank the Deputy and I invite the Minister of State, Deputy Ossian Smyth, to respond. Minister of State at the Department of Environment, Climate and Communications (Deputy Ossian Smyth): I thank Deputy Whitmore for her amendments and I understand her concern about the recent High Court judgment. It relates to the 2015 Act and not the 2021 Bill. 3 SECA The role of the Government throughout this climate Bill is central to its operation and entwined with the efforts to be made. Every ceiling, budget and plan are matters that the Government must approve. Regardless of whether additional obligations may be attached to the Govern- ment lawfully, the overall target as set in the legislation is something that the Government must clearly consider. It is a statutory obligation being created and it is almost certainly justiciable. It is something we have certainly considered to ensure the targets are justiciable and enforce- able. Even without any broad, sweeping obligations, the Government remains the executive power of the State and is therefore answerable to the courts if the legislation does not fulfil the targets set therein. However, the proposal to include a requirement on the State raises signifi- cant constitutional, questionable and incompatible legal issues for the role of the Executive. It therefore cannot be supported at this time. We do not accept the amendment. Deputy Jennifer Whitmore: Is the Minister of State’s response not contradictory? He has stated that the Government is covered under the references in the Act but on the other hand, he is saying it cannot be. I did not quite get his reference. He mentioned the High Court ruling relating to the 2015 Act. What is the difference be- tween the 2015 Act and this Bill with respect to the assurances that the Government is seen as one and the same with the Minister when it comes to accountability? Can the Minister of State give a legal guarantee that this is the case? Deputy Ossian Smyth: The new Bill strengthens the obligations on Ministers and it is completely new legislation. I understand judges in looking at the 2015 Act found differences and we took that examination into account in drafting this Bill. We are confident the issue will not arise. Deputy Jennifer Whitmore: I still do not see where the changes have been made in the Bill to reflect the High Court decision. For the sake of clarity and to be absolutely sure, this and subsequent related amendments should be included. We must have absolute clarity on this to avoid any High Court challenges. Amendment put. The Committee divided: Tá;, 3; Níl, 6. Tá; Níl; Cronin, Réada. Bruton, Richard. O’Rourke, Darren. Devlin, Cormac. Whitmore, Jennifer. Farrell, Alan. Leddin, Brian. O’Sullivan, Christopher. Smyth, Ossian. Amendment declared lost. Sitting suspended at 9.53 a.m. and resumed at 9.58 a.m. Chairman: I apologise to Deputies Cronin and O’Rourke as we should have kept everybody 4 9 JUNE 2021 in the room to take amendment No. 92, which was discussed with the previous amendment. Deputy Réada Cronin: I move amendment No. 92: In page 12, line 7, to delete “A Minister of the Government, shall, in so far as practi- cable, perform” and substitute “The Government and a Minister of the Government, shall, in so far as practicable perform its or”. The sentiment is similar to that of the previous amendment. We can withdraw it with a view to bringing it back again on Report Stage. Chairman: We can do that. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Chairman: Amendment No. 93 is in the names of Deputies Bríd Smith, Gino Kenny, Paul Murphy and Richard Boyd Barrett. Amendments Nos. 93, 204 and 212 are related and will be discussed together. Are any of the Deputies present? No. Amendment No. 93 not moved. Chairman: Amendment No. 94 is in the names of Deputies Thomas Pringle, Joan Collins, Bríd Smith, Gino Kenny, Paul Murphy and Richard Boyd Barrett. Are any of the Deputies present? No.