1 1 INTERBRANCH COMMISSION ON JUVENILE JUSTICE PUBLIC HEARING 2 3 4 5 BEFORE: HONORABLE JOHN M. CLELAND, CHAIRMAN TOD C. ALLEN, MEMBER 6 VALERIE BENDER, MEMBER HONORABLE JAMES A. GIBBONS, MEMBER 7 KENNETH J. HOROHO, ESQUIRE, MEMBER JASON J. LEGG, ESQUIRE, MEMBER 8 ROBERT L. LISTENBEE, ESQUIRE, MEMBER GEORGE D. MOSEE, JR., ESQUIRE, MEMBER 9 HONORABLE JOHN C. UHLER, MEMBER RONALD P. WILLIAMS, MEMBER 10 HONORABLE DWAYNE D. WOODRUFF, MEMBER 11 DATE: DECEMBER 7, 2009, 8:58 A.M. 12 13 PLACE: BEST WESTERN MOUNTAIN INN WILKES-BARRE, PENNSYLVANIA 14 15 16 APPEARANCES: 17 BY: DARREN BRESLIN, ESQUIRE 18 FOR - COMMISSION 19 20 DONNA E. GLADWIN, REPORTER 21 NOTARY PUBLIC 22 23 24 25 2 1 WITNESS 2 NAME EXAMINATION 3 CLARENCE JOHN 4 BY MS. BENDER 7, 27 BY JUDGE WOODRUFF 13 5 BY MR. HOROHO 29 BY MR. MOSEE 44 6 BY JUDGE UHLER 46 BY CHAIRMAN CLELAND 47 7 VINCENT ZOLA 8 BY MS. BENDER 50 9 BY JUDGE WOODRUFF 57 BY MR. HOROHO 75 10 BY JUDGE UHLER 82 BY MR. WILLIAMS 84 11 BY MR. LEGG 85 12 MICHAEL LEHMAN 13 BY JUDGE WOODRUFF 89 14 TOM KILLINO 15 BY MR. LISTENBEE 95 BY MR. MOSEE 143 16 BY JUDGE UHLER 156 BY JUDGE WOODRUFF 159 17 BY MR. ALLEN 163 BY MR. WILLIAMS 163 18 BY MR. HOROHO 165 BY JUDGE GIBBONS 169 19 BY MR. LEGG 171 BY CHAIRMAN CLELAND 176 20 JONATHAN URSIAK 21 BY MR. MOSEE 178 22 BY MR. LISTENBEE 200 BY JUDGE UHLER 208, 220 23 BY MR. HOROHO 212 BY MR. LEGG 215 24 BY CHAIRMAN CLELAND 220 BY MR. BENDER 224 25 3 1 VIRGINIA COWLEY 2 BY MR. MOSEE 226 BY MR. LISTENBEE 245 3 BY CHAIRMAN CLELAND 246 BY JUDGE UHLER 249 4 THERESA KLINE 5 BY JUDGE UHLER 251, 274 6 BY JUDGE WOODRUFF 262, 281 BY MR. LISTENBEE 282 7 BY CHAIRMAN CLELAND 284 8 MATT SKREPENAK 9 BY JUDGE UHLER 285, 296 10 BY JUDGE WOODRUFF 289 BY MR. WILLIAMS 292 11 BY MR. LISTENBEE 292 BY MR. HOROHO 293 12 BY MR. LEGG 295 BY MR. ALLEN 297 13 ANGELA ZERA 14 BY JUDGE WOODRUFF 297, 310 15 BY JUDGE UHLER 301, 307, 317 BY MR. ALLEN 302 16 BY MR. MOSEE 303 BY MR. LISTENBEE 304, 306, 314 17 BY CHAIRMAN CLELAND 305, 306, 307, 315 BY MR. HOROHO 312 18 TOM LAVAN 19 BY JUDGE WOODRUFF 318 20 BY JUDGE UHLER 322 BY MR. ALLEN 324 21 BY MR. HOROHO 326 BY MR. WILLIAMS 327 22 BY MR. MOSEE 328 BY CHAIRMAN CLELAND 330 23 BY MR. LEGG 331 BY MR. LISTENBEE 331 24 BY JUDGE GIBBONS 335 25 4 1 PAUL McGARRY 2 BY JUDGE UHLER 335 BY MR. WILLIAMS 353, 358 3 BY MR. LEGG 356, 361 BY MR. HOROHO 356 4 BY JUDGE GIBBONS 357 BY MR. LISTENBEE 359 5 BY CHAIRMAN CLELAND 361 6 A.K. AND R.K. 7 BY MR. ALLEN 364 8 D.G. AND M.G. 9 BY MR. ALLEN 381 BY MS. BENDER 394 10 BY CHAIRMAN CLELAND 396 BY MR. MOSEE 397 11 E.M. 12 BY MS. BENDER 399 13 BY JUDGE UHLER 408 14 A.A. 15 BY MS. BENDER 411 BY JUDGE WOODRUFF 420 16 BY MR. LISTENBEE 421 BY MR. MOSEE 422 17 BY MR. LEGG 423 18 A.L. 19 BY MR. DILLER 425 BY MR. ALLEN 426 20 BY MS. BENDER 432 BY JUDGE UHLER 435 21 G.H. AND R.H. 22 BY MS. BENDER 437 23 BY MR. HOROHO 449 BY JUDGE UHLER 452 24 BY MR. MOSEE 455 BY JUDGE WOODRUFF 457 25 5 1 CHAIRMAN CLELAND: Good morning. My name is John 2 Cleland. I'm a judge of the Superior Court of Pennsylvania, 3 and Chairman of the Interbranch Commission on Juvenile 4 Justice. 5 We are here today to begin our third day of 6 hearings here in Wilkes-Barre. We'll be here again 7 tomorrow. That will be four days of hearing that we've held 8 here in Luzerne County, and then we'll move to Harrisburg 9 for our hearings in January and February. 10 We have a very full schedule today and tomorrow. 11 We'll be going, looks like, until about 9:00 tonight. We'll 12 begin with the school officials. We'll have then interviews 13 with the Assistant District Attorneys who were in the 14 courtroom during the juvenile hearings, the Assistant Public 15 Defenders and juvenile probation officers who were also in 16 the hearings, and then this evening hear from some of the 17 juvenile victims and their families. 18 Tomorrow morning at 9:00 we'll begin with Zygmont 19 Pines, who is the State Court Administrator of Pennsylvania. 20 We will continue our questioning of officials of the 21 Judicial Conduct Board, and then in the afternoon hear from 22 representatives of the Luzerne County Board of 23 Commissioners. 24 Before we begin I want to introduce the members of 25 the Commission that are here with us this morning. Tod 6 1 Allen is the Director of Court Advocacy of the Crime Victim 2 Center of Erie County. 3 Valerie Bender is a Senior Research Associate at 4 the National Center for Juvenile Justice in Pittsburgh. 5 Kenneth Horoho is a Pittsburgh attorney and former president 6 of the Pennsylvania Bar Association. 7 James A. Gibbons is a Magisterial District Judge 8 from Lackawanna County. Jason J. Legg is the District 9 Attorney of Susquehanna County. Robert L. Listenbee is the 10 Chief of the Juvenile Unit of the Defender Association of 11 Pennsylvania. 12 George D. Mosee, Jr. is the Chief of the Juvenile 13 Division and Deputy District Attorney of Philadelphia. 14 Judge John C. Uhler is a judge of the Court of Common Pleas 15 of York County and a former President Judge of that Court. 16 Ronald P. Williams is the Regional Director of the 17 Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture. Dwayne D. Woodruff 18 is a judge of the Juvenile Court of Allegheny County. And 19 I'm joined here as well with Darren Breslin, counsel to our 20 Commission. 21 Our first witness this morning is Clarence John. 22 Mr. John, if you'd please stand and raise your right hand to 23 take the oath. 24 25 CLARENCE JOHN, called as a witness, being duly 7 1 sworn, testified as follows: 2 3 THE WITNESS: I do. 4 CHAIRMAN CLELAND: Thank you, sir. Mr. John, our 5 procedure has been that one of the members or two of the 6 members are delegated to begin the initial questioning. And 7 I believe either Judge Woodruff or Ms. Bender is going to 8 begin. I'm not sure which one. 9 MS. BENDER: I will begin. 10 CHAIRMAN CLELAND: Ms. Bender, go ahead. 11 BY MS. BENDER: 12 Q Good morning, Mr. John. 13 A Good morning. 14 Q I'd like to begin by just asking you some 15 background questions. 16 A Sure. 17 Q Could you please tell me what position you hold? 18 A As of today, none. I'm retired. I was principal 19 for the last year and a half at Hazleton Area High School. 20 Prior to that I was the principal at the Hazleton Area 21 Career Center for five years. And prior to that I was a 22 vice principal for 20 years. 23 Q All in the Hazleton area? 24 A All in the Hazleton area. 25 Q Thank you. Are you aware of the school district's 8 1 policies that existed while Judge Ciavarella was on the 2 bench? 3 A Yes, I am. 4 Q Could you tell me your understanding of some of 5 those policies? 6 A The policies -- what we did, we only used -- most 7 of our policies we tried to deal with in-house. Very, very 8 seldom did we ever end up going to court through juvenile. 9 In fact, I can only remember going to court in the juvenile 10 system in two -- twice in the last five years, six years. 11 I never was in juvenile court other than those two 12 times. One was for a weapons charge. One was for a drug 13 charge. Our policies, we always tried to have a gray area 14 in there that we could handle whatever we could within the 15 house rather than go outside the school district. 16 Q How are your school district policies established? 17 Does the school district do them or the school board? 18 A The school board does them through the -- I would 19 say the attorney which represents our school district. They 20 write the policies. Then we send them down to PSPA. They 21 print them up, go over them, and then they send them back to 22 us. 23 Q Were you part of the development of those school 24 policies? 25 A No. 9 1 Q Do you know who did develop them? 2 A I would just simply say central office for lack of 3 -- I have no idea other than central office and the school 4 board and the lawyers. 5 Q Central -- do you have any information about how 6 those policies were developed? 7 A No, I do not. 8 Q As a school principal or vice principal did you 9 have any flexibility in implementing the policies? 10 A Yes, we did.