Second Session -Thirty-Fourth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba STANDING COMMITTEE on INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS 38 Elizabeth 11 Chairman Mr. H. Pankratz Constituency of La Verendrye VOL. XXXVIII No. 1 - 8 p.m., THURSDAY, JUNE 22, 1989. MG-8048 ISSN 0713-9608 Printed by the OfflcB of the Queens Printer, Province of Manitoba MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fourth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME CONSTITUENCY PA RTY ALCOCK, Reg Osborne LIBERAL ANGUS, John St. Norbert LIBERAL ASHTON, Sieve Thompson NDP BURRELL, Parker Swan River PC CARR, James Fort Rouge LIBERAL CARSTAIRS, Sharon River Heights LIBERAL CHARLES, Gwen Selkirk LIBERAL CHEEMA, Gulzar Kildonan LIBERAL CHORNOPYSKI, William Burrows LIBERAL CONNERY,Edward, Hon. Portage la Prairie PC COWAN,Jay Churchill NDP CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose du Lac PC DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin-Russell PC DOER, Gary Concordia NDP DOWNEY,James, Hon. Arthur PC DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. Emerson PC DRIEDGER, Herold L. Niakwa LIBERAL DUCHARME, Gerald, Hon. Aiel PC EDWARDS, Paul St. James LIBERAL ENNS, Harry, Hon. Lakeside PC ERNST, Jim, Hon. Charleswood PC EVANS, l.aurie E. Fort Garry LIBERAL EVANS, Leonard S. Brandon East NDP FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo PC FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. Virden PC GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface LIBERAL GILLESHAMMER, Harold Minnedosa PC GRAY, Avis Ellice LIBERAL HAMMOND, Gerrie, Hon. Kirkfield Park PC HARAPIAK, Harry The Pas NDP HARPER, Elijah Rupertsland NDP HELWER, Edward R. Gimli PC HEMPHILL, Maureen Logan NDP KOZAK, Richard J. Transcona LIBERAL LAMOUREUX, Kevin M. lnkster LIBERAL MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood NDP MANDRAKE, Ed Assiniboia LIBERAL MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. Morris PC McCRAE, James, Hon. Brandon West PC MINENKO, Mark Seven Oaks LIBERAL MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East PC NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. Rossmere PC OLESON, Charlotte, Hon. Glad stone PC ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. Pembina PC PANKRATZ, Helmut La Verendrye PC PATTERSON, Allan Radisson LIBERAL PENNER, Jack, Hon. Rhineland PC PLOHMAN, John Dauphin NDP PRAZNIK, Darren Lac du Bonnet PC ROCAN, Denis, Hon. Turtle Mountain PC ROCH, Gilles Springfield LIBERAL ROSE, Bob St. Vital LIBERAL STORIE, Jerry Flin Flon NDP TAYLOR, Harold Wolseley LIBERAL URUSKI, Bill lnterlake NDP WASYLYCIA-LEIS, Judy St. Johns NDP YEO, lva Sturgeon Creek LIBERAL LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS Thursday, June 22, 1989 TIME- 8 p.m. and the time length that we are going to be spending on this Bill tonight? LOCATION- Winnipeg, Manitoba Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): CHAIRMAN- Mr. Helmut Pankratz (La Verendrye) Mr. Chairperson, I would suggest that we not have a time limit. I think the individuals who are going to present ATTENDANCE -11- QUORUM- 6 briefs are very knowledgeable on the subject. I am sure Members of the Committee present: they can make their points as lawyers usually do, and Hon. Messrs. Cummings, Driedger (Emerson), other citizens do, in a very concise way. I would suggest Ducharme, McCrae we not have a time limit. Messrs. Doer, Edwards, Ms. Hemphill, Messrs. Pankratz, Patterson, Plohman, Rose Mr. Chairman: No time limit? Is that the will of the committee? (Agreed) APPEARING: Mr. Sheldon Pinx, Manitoba Bar Then I would like to suggest one thing to all Members Association in the committee that you wait, and you will be Mr. Harvey Pollock, Q.C., Citizens Against recognized before you speak out because everything Impaired Driving is being recorded. So with that little bit of advice, I Mr. Meyer Cosman, Private Citizen would like to ask the Minister, are you going to make Mr. John Campbell, Winnipeg Police any presentation first? Association Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and MATTERS UNDER DISCUSSION: Transportation): No. Bill No. 3-The Highway Traffic Amendment Act Mr. Chairman: No? Okay, then we will listen to the presentations first. I will call them in order. Mr. Sheldon Pinx. This gentleman is representing the Bar Association. Mr. Sheldon Pinx (Manitoba Bar Association): Yes, Mr. Chairman (Helmut Pankratz): I would like to call I am here on behalf of the Canadian Bar Association, the committee to order on Industrial Relations. This Manitoba Branch. evening we will be considering Bill No. 3, The Highway Traffic Amendment Act. I have a list of persons wishing The first comment I would like to make on behalf of to appear before this committee, and I will name them. the Bar Association, and I make this point very clearly If there is anybody else in the audience who would like to all of you Members, is that we do not approve or to appear, I wish you would come and see the legislative condone the offences of impaired driving, driving over Clerk and identify yourself. .08, or driving disqualified, or any other crimes proscribed by law. I will read them out. Mr. Sheldon Pinx, Mr. Harvey Pollock, Mr. Meyer Cosman. Is there anyone else that Our position deals and will deal with issues such as would like to make a presentation before the the presumption of innocence, rights of individuals in committee? If not, that will be the order, I believe- our community, and what we perceive to be the creation of innocent victims by this legislation. * (2005) We all know about the presumption of innocence, I Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Chairman, I just and do not mean to lecture any of you with respect want to make sure that in the event that anyone who to that very fundamental principle. That is that anyone does want to speak to the committee shows up late, charged with a crime is presumed to be innocent of we will ask that question again at the end of the that crime until proven guilty in a court of law. presentations. There are two areas of concern created by the legislation that we have proposed. One deals with the Mr. Chairman: Is that the will of the committee? impounding of vehicles driven by suspended drivers, (Agreed) those who are either suspended provincially or by the Criminal Code of Canada. The second category is the lt is customary to hear the briefs before considering suspension of driving privileges for a period of three the Bills. Is that the wish of the committee? (Agreed) months prior to a person being convicted of either the Then my next question to the committee is, do you offense of driving over .08 or the offence of refusing wish to impose a time limit on the public presentations the breathalyzer. 1 Thursday, June 22, 1989 I think it is fair to say that both of these areas in perhaps working, and you do not have the time to effect result in the imposition of a form of punishment spend to figure all this out, you will call a lawyer and prior to, in fact, a conviction being recorded against perhaps have to retain counsel. So now you have a an individual. As we know, when you operate in a lawyer appearing on your behalf, bringing an system, as we have here in Canada of the Charter of application, satisfying a justice that you are in fact that Rights and Freedoms, fundamental justice, fair hearings, innocent person, as defined in this provision, that the and all of those principles, they really are just simply person did not have the vehicle with your consent. a reflection of that overall principle, that we do not Assuming you establish that and the order is made presume people guilty of crimes, we presume them returning your vehicle to you, it is not over yet because innocent. you, the innocent victim in this case, will now have to pay the storage fees for t hat vehicle that was * (2010) impounded, according to the law. Not only will you have The problem firstly, if I might address you, deals in had to pay your lawyer's fees, and the storage fees, my view. with the impounding of motor vehicles. Now, but the law does give you the right to go after the fee according to the legislation, as we have it in its present from Mr. Doer because you can chase him down to form, and I refer you specifically to Section 242. 1, a collect the money that you had to pay out of your pocket peace officer who has reason to believe that a person for the storage of that vehicle. has operated a motor vehicle, as defined in this Act contrary to Section 225 of this Act, which is your driving * (2015) suspended provision, or Section 259 of the Criminal I have given you an example, which I have attempted Code, the similar Criminal Code provision, sh;ill seize­ to use to demonstrate, in my view and in the view of and I emphasize these words, Members, shall seize, our association, a very glaring injustice that will be impound and take into the custody of the law the motor created by this legislation. What I have attempted to vehicle with which, or in respect of which the offence do by the example is to demonstrate the areas of cost was alleged to have been committed. and inconvenience to that innocent victim in the lt is our view, and certainly �:�t least our attempt to community, not the driver who was suspended, but the interpret the rationale of this legislation which appears person who did absolutely nothing wrong. to be that we want to discourage st.ispended drivers from driving, period, before they even think about doing I want to give you a couple more examples. Some it. To do so, we want to encourage the members of of you here who are lawyers are aware that for a person the public to be responsible in not either lending vehicles to be guilty of driving while suspended, either under to suspended drivers, to put them in a position where the Criminal Code or the provincial legislation, he must they can commit the offence.