LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 27 June 1997 1211 OFFICIAL RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS Friday, 27 June 1997 The Council met at Nine o'clock MEMBERS PRESENT THE PRESIDENT THE HONOURABLE ANDREW WONG WANG-FAT, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE ALLEN LEE PENG-FEI, C.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MRS SELINA CHOW LIANG SHUK-YEE, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MARTIN LEE CHU-MING, Q.C., J.P. DR THE HONOURABLE DAVID LI KWOK-PO, O.B.E., LL.D. (CANTAB), J.P. THE HONOURABLE NGAI SHIU-KIT, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE SZETO WAH THE HONOURABLE LAU WONG-FAT, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE EDWARD HO SING-TIN, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE RONALD JOSEPH ARCULLI, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MRS MIRIAM LAU KIN-YEE, O.B.E., J.P. DR THE HONOURABLE EDWARD LEONG CHE-HUNG, O.B.E., J.P. 1212 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 27 June 1997 THE HONOURABLE ALBERT CHAN WAI-YIP THE HONOURABLE CHEUNG MAN-KWONG THE HONOURABLE CHIM PUI-CHUNG THE HONOURABLE FREDERICK FUNG KIN-KEE THE HONOURABLE MICHAEL HO MUN-KA DR THE HONOURABLE HUANG CHEN-YA, M.B.E. THE HONOURABLE EMILY LAU WAI-HING, J.P. THE HONOURABLE LEE WING-TAT THE HONOURABLE ERIC LI KA-CHEUNG, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE FRED LI WAH-MING THE HONOURABLE HENRY TANG YING-YEN, J.P. THE HONOURABLE JAMES TO KUN-SUN DR THE HONOURABLE PHILIP WONG YU-HONG DR THE HONOURABLE YEUNG SUM THE HONOURABLE HOWARD YOUNG, J.P. THE HONOURABLE ZACHARY WONG WAI-YIN THE HONOURABLE CHRISTINE LOH KUNG-WAI THE HONOURABLE JAMES TIEN PEI-CHUN, O.B.E., J.P. THE HONOURABLE LEE CHEUK-YAN LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 27 June 1997 1213 THE HONOURABLE CHAN KAM-LAM THE HONOURABLE CHAN WING-CHAN THE HONOURABLE CHAN YUEN-HAN THE HONOURABLE ANDREW CHENG KAR-FOO THE HONOURABLE PAUL CHENG MING-FUN, J.P. THE HONOURABLE CHENG YIU-TONG DR THE HONOURABLE ANTHONY CHEUNG BING-LEUNG THE HONOURABLE CHEUNG HON-CHUNG THE HONOURABLE CHOY KAN-PUI, J.P. THE HONOURABLE DAVID CHU YU-LIN THE HONOURABLE ALBERT HO CHUN-YAN THE HONOURABLE IP KWOK-HIM THE HONOURABLE LAU CHIN-SHEK, J.P. THE HONOURABLE AMBROSE LAU HON-CHUEN, J.P. DR THE HONOURABLE LAW CHEUNG-KWOK THE HONOURABLE LAW CHI-KWONG THE HONOURABLE LEE KAI-MING THE HONOURABLE LEUNG YIU-CHUNG THE HONOURABLE BRUCE LIU SING-LEE 1214 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 27 June 1997 THE HONOURABLE LO SUK-CHING THE HONOURABLE MOK YING-FAN THE HONOURABLE MARGARET NG THE HONOURABLE NGAN KAM-CHUEN THE HONOURABLE SIN CHUNG-KAI THE HONOURABLE TSANG KIN-SHING DR THE HONOURABLE JOHN TSE WING-LING THE HONOURABLE MRS ELIZABETH WONG CHIEN CHI-LIEN, C.B.E., I.S.O., J.P. THE HONOURABLE LAWRENCE YUM SIN-LING PUBLIC OFFICERS ATTENDING MR DOMINIC WONG SHING-WAH, O.B.E., J.P. SECRETARY FOR HOUSING MR RAFAEL HUI SI-YAN, J.P. SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES MR JOSEPH WONG WING-PING, J.P. SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER MR PETER LAI HING-LING, C.B.E., J.P. SECRETARY FOR SECURITY MR BOWEN LEUNG PO-WING, C.B.E., J.P. SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 27 June 1997 1215 MRS STELLA HUNG KWOK WAI-CHING, J.P. SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS CLERKS IN ATTENDANCE MR RICKY FUNG CHOI-CHEUNG, J.P., SECRETARY GENERAL MR LAW KAM-SANG, J.P., DEPUTY SECRETARY GENERAL MRS JUSTINA LAM CHENG BO-LING, ASSISTANT SECRETARY GENERAL 1216 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 27 June 1997 Resumption of Second Reading Debate on Bill SECURITY AND GUARDING SERVICES (AMENDMENT) (NO. 2) BILL 1997 PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Council shall resume. We will continue the Second Reading debate of the Security and Guarding Services (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill 1997. MR CHAN KAM-LAM (in Cantonese): Mr President, ever since the enactment of the Security and Guarding Services Ordinance (the Ordinance), Council Members have gone through bitter struggles whenever they discussed the issue. Does the improvement on service standards of caretakers of buildings necessarily mean bringing unemployment to the elderly watchmen, forcing them out of work and driving them to the queue for relief? Mr President, as there was virtually no retirement protection available in Hong Kong in the past decades, when we asked the elderly residents with whom we frequent contacted, especially those living in older estates or districts, about their life after retirement, they would usually say, "Well, I will try to get a job as watchman". It seems to me that these jobs have become the safe haven of the grassroot retirees. Of course, they can also choose to become recipients of the meagre Comprehensive Social Security Assistance payment. According to the figures provided by the Police Licensing Office, as at September 1996, among the 110 000 existing watchmen who were holders of former watchman's permits, 25 825 were between 61 to 70 years old and 10 624 were aged above 70, the total of which is about one-third of the permit holders. The number of people in the trade who have not applied for "white cards" may even be larger. Mr President, although the Security and Guarding Services Ordinance passed by this Council in 1995 enables continuous employment of people over the age of 65 in security work of Category A, that is serving as watchman in single private residential buildings, as far as I know, among the people who were employed as watchmen in buildings in Hong Kong when the Ordinance came into effect last June, nearly 100 000 of them have not obtained white cards. If they want to continue to work as watchmen, they will have to apply LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 27 June 1997 1217 for the security personnel permits, which have more stringent requirements. Before the Ordinance came into operation, I had requested the Government to defer the effective date of the provisions for a period of six months, the purpose of which was to give sufficient time for those people in the trade who were not white cards holders to lodge their applications. However, it was turned down by the Government. It only agreed to enhance publicity before the Ordinance came into effect. The Ordinance has been in place for one year, during which we have received numerous complaints on this matter. There were watchmen aged over 65 being dismissed by their employers on the alleged grounds of compliance with the new legislation. Some employees were yet to obtain their permits after they were offered employment, although they had made the application long ago. Besides, some applications for permits were rejected because the employees concerned had committed minor criminal offences decades ago and were then convicted. These cases demonstrate that with the new legislation in place, the outstanding problems to be solved still remain unsolved. Mr President, the Bill introduced by the Honourable CHAN Wing-chan only applies to security personnel who were lawfully employed under the former Watchmen Ordinance before 1 June 1996. They need not apply for the new security personnel permit under the new legislation before they can continue with the janitor work in various types of buildings. In the letter from the Secretary for Security to persuade Members to oppose to the Bill, it emphasizes that if the Bill is passed, the efforts made by the Government to combat crimes and to enhance the service standards of the security industry will all be thrown away. Yet we think this is exaggeration. It has not only brought the matter to an unduly high level, but also deliberately twisted the spirit of the Bill. Regarding the current phased exercise adopted by the Government to replace new permits by year of birth, the Democratic Alliance for the Betterment of Hong Kong thinks that this will only defer rendering the guards and security personnel jobless for a short period. According to the present schedule laid out by the Government, one third of the people in the trade will be forced out of the trade by the year 2001, and even if they could pass the medical examination, the number of available vacancies of watchmen in single private residential buildings in the territory would fail to absorb all of them. 1218 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 27 June 1997 Mr President, Members who are opposed to the Bill think that once the legislation is passed, nothing can be done to improve the quality of watchmen. Yet we find this worry excessive. Just imagine, in view of the currently meagre monthly salary of caretakers, which is around $3,000 to $4,000, younger people are unwilling to join the trade. Therefore, the Government's claim that the quality of service can be improved with the Security and Guarding Services Ordinance in place is only her wishful thinking and "empty talks". Moreover, we do not agree that the quality of service and age have direct relations. Why do Council Members ask for equal opportunities and oppose age discrimination on the one hand, but made an assumption that the elderly caretakers cannot provide good service on the other? We think that the most practical way to truly improve the service standards of the trade is the provision of on-the-job training for the existing security personnel as early as possible. Mr President, with these remarks, I support the Bill. MR CHENG YIU-TONG (in Cantonese): Mr President, when I meet with employees or members of trade unions, I usually ask them about their life and physical health. The answer I often get is, "I am getting old and useless. I am not even fit to serve as a watchman." When I hear these words, I feel very sad.