the boisi center interviews no. 57: September 12, 2011 glenn carle served twenty-three years in the Clandestine Services of the Central Intelligence Agency, working in a number of overseas posts on four continents and in Washington, DC. He is the author of The Interrogator: An Education (2011). He spoke with Boisi Center associate director Erik Owens before participating in a panel on interrogation policy after Osama bin Laden. owens: One of the things that struck stances. There are some steps one can times during the day, or you really need me while reading your book was your take to maintain a sense of self and some to. You have to drink something and you view that interrogating a suspect was in integrity. It was very useful training. will sleep for a certain period every 24 most ways similar to cultivating an intel- hours. Well, not necessarily. If someone Having gone through that interrogation ligent asset. But of course there are a few takes away these reference points, you be- training, it was clear that the methods crucial differences. Could say a bit more come completely disoriented, shockingly we were applying [to al Qaeda suspects] about the two endeavors? fast, and you go half-crazy. carle: I think they are exactly the same: The theory, as briefed to us, was that Both are about human relationships. I’m this psychological dislocation makes a an operations officer; my job is to spot, subject more malleable and willing to access, develop, recruit and handle people provide information, and that the effect who commit treason for the United is not lasting. If they say the definition of States. When I was given the assignment torture is “any pain, physical or physio- [to interrogate a “high value” al-Qaeda logical, that is severe and lasting,” then suspect] I had never interrogated any- [psychological dislocation] is therefore not body. I was briefed on what came to be torture because they say its effects are not called the Enhanced Interrogation Tech- lasting. I always thought that “lasting” niques, but early on in the program no is a very elastic concept, but I had been such thing existed. It was a much more interrogated with these methods during amorphous—figure it out as you go, and my training and within two hours after be creative and aggressive. But I knew being released I was fine, despite having from the first second, as I wrote in the been half-crazy shortly before. So, I book, that I just would not have anything thought, maybe [Enhanced Interrogation to do with any physical coercion. It was Tactics] isn’t torture. just wrong, I just flat wouldn’t do it. were based on the same principles and But when I started to be involved in the approach to which I had been subject. The psychological measures, however— actual interrogation of the detainee, I The goal is to “psychologically dislocate” that I had been trained in, I was more quickly repudiated that position and the detainee. Things that we don’t think ambivalent about. Since CIA case officers opposed all of the enhanced measures. about consciously define our sense of self are at risk of being kidnapped and What I found, both in discussions with and how we perceive ourselves in relation tortured, our training included interro- colleagues who had interrogated people to the world and actions around us. gation: you are put in a horrible situation and in thinking about (and later doing) to protect information if you can, and to Gravity pulls us down. The ground is this myself, is that everything an inter- keep your sanity, when you’ve lost all con- always below, the sky is up. The sun rises rogator should do is fundamentally the trol about anything about your circum- in the east, once a day. You eat several same as that of a case officer. Or what a 1 the boisi center interview: glenn carle boy should do when trying to seduce a society—and then find out, as I did, that examples of how you faced those author- girl: it is to establish a rapport, to under- your conviction was wrong. ities and conventions and tried to find stand the person sitting across from you. your way across to right and wrong. But Now, turning the tables, that sense of What are that person’s hopes and fears, without the guidance of authority and awful tension is precisely what an intel- quirks, motivations, sense of humor, convention, where then do you find your ligence officer looks for in his targets, intellectual limits, biases, vulnerabilities? sense of right and wrong? in the people that we try to induce to All these things that make a person an commit treason. I spent twenty-three carle: I’m not sure there’s an answer individual. You get to know them, and years saying to the person sitting across to the question. It’s one of the ultimate you talk. Based on that you can obtain from me, “You have a chance to do right. questions of life, which is of course why information. That’s it. There is no other Very few people ever have a chance to you are studying it. This book describes way. make a difference. But because you are an incredibly acute, months-long dilem- owens: Of course as you write in a man of integrity, the contradiction is ma that distilled this exact issue for me, the book, and others have argued, this in a practical way. Is there a natural law? sounds awfully “soft” to a lot of people Is there a higher law? Is there a religious who think that being aggressive in other law? I personally think not; I’m more of ways is the appropriate way to glean “Incredibly for a naturalist. But there is a clear sense of information. morality that evolves from human nature. Americans in We attribute it to higher laws, to one reli- carle: Fear and manipulation are legiti- gion or another, but the results are more mate tools in an interrogation. All human my position, or less the same. That underpins most of relations are based on manipulation. You our formal laws, but is, I think, separate can do it as an honest person—someone the tables were from them sometimes. In the dilemma I with integrity—or with the clear end frankly turned faced, they did diverge. of manipulating for national security purposes, or to extract information from because what we My parents died just before the publica- a detainee. I think it’s not just useful but tion of my book. My father did many fine probably necessary to manipulate and were ordered to things in his life, but I think probably play upon all the emotions a person will secretly his proudest achievement was to have. do subverted the have been voted the 1943 Boston Uni- versity Class Iconoclast. It was for him a But the argument that it’s too soft is principles that we moral and intellectual duty to challenge just, I think, simplistic, and the view of everything: never accept anything, be- someone who reflexively equates tough- believed we were cause then you are not thinking. You are ness and intimidation with efficiency defending.” not an individual if you do not access, to and strength. And they are not the same the best of your ability, the facts, and then thing at all. You want to be smart; you reach a conclusion independently. And don’t want to be a brute. that obtains for your instructions and owens: You mentioned that your duty clear between your formal obligations to your morals. So perhaps that’s why peo- as an intelligence officer was to help oth- your country and what you know is your ple in my professional life have found me ers commit treason against their coun- higher and deeper duty. I can help you be consistently friendly but insubordinate. tries, to the service of our own national an honest man by committing treason.” owens: Aristotle argued that we need interest. At what point does your duty to Incredibly for Americans in my position, to find what he calls a good man—what humanity at large intrude upon, or even the tables were frankly turned because we might call a mentor—to model the trump, your duty to our country? what we were ordered to do subverted proper way of life, to help live practically carle: My book is an exploration on the principles that we believed we were in a world of ideas and actions. I wonder almost every sentence of exactly this di- defending. It’s a terrible dilemma. if there was someone or some group of lemma. It’s an acute and awful dilemma people who served that function for you, owens: In your book’s dedication page when you take an oath and work with the who helped you find your balance? Or did I was struck by the way you thank your strong conviction that your government you feel untethered at this time of crisis? parents for teaching you that “right and embodies in its laws and practices the wrong are independent of authority carle: Not untethered, but certainly in values that protect individuals in this or convention.” The book is rife with crisis because of the divergence between 2 the boisi center interview: glenn carle orders, convictions, structures, and my undermine American interests. That rule would not allow me to make my detainee sense of right. While it’s conventional to is fine.