Vol. 772 Wednesday, No. 2 11 July 2012 DÍOSPÓIREACHTAÍ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES DÁIL ÉIREANN TUAIRISC OIFIGIÚIL—Neamhcheartaithe (OFFICIAL REPORT—Unrevised) Dé Céadaoin, 11 Iúil 2012. Leaders’ Questions ……………………………… 337 Order of Business ……………………………… 348 Membership of Joint Committee: Motion ……………………… 352 Veterinary Practice (Amendment) Bill 2011: Amendments from the Seanad ………… 352 Credit Guarantee Bill 2012: Amendments from the Seanad ………………… 354 Topical Issue Matters ……………………………… 354 Public Service Pensions (Single Scheme and Other Provisions) Bill 2011: Report Stage … … … 355 Estimates for Public Services 2012: Message from Select Committee …………… 380 Ceisteanna — Questions Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade Priority Questions …………………………… 380 Other Questions …………………………… 389 Message from Select Committee ………………………… 396 Topical Issue Debate Public Order Offences …………………………… 396 Family Law Cases ……………………………… 402 Ballylongford Landbank …………………………… 405 Road Improvement Scheme ………………………… 407 Public Service Pensions (Single Scheme and Other Provisions) Bill 2011: Report Stage (resumed) … 410 Electoral (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill 2012: Order for Second Stage …………………………… 423 Second Stage ……………………………… 423 Committee and Remaining Stages ……………………… 434 Personal Insolvency Bill 2012: Second Stage (resumed)………………… 435 Health Service Budget: Motion (resumed)[Private Members] ……………… 436 Personal Insolvency Bill 2012: Second Stage (resumed)………………… 461 Personal Explanation by Minister ………………………… 467 Questions: Written Answers …………………………… 471 DÁIL ÉIREANN ———— Dé Céadaoin, 11 Iúil 2012. Wednesday, 11 July 2012. ———— Chuaigh an Ceann Comhairle i gceannas ar 10.30 a.m. ———— Paidir. Prayer. ———— Leaders’ Questions Deputy Micheál Martin: It is clear that the personal affairs of the Minister for Health, Deputy James Reilly, are not completely in order, despite the Taoiseach’s statement yesterday, given that he has failed to honour a High Court order on the debt. What is even more alarming is the complete lack of order in the financial affairs of the Department of Health and the health service. The latest reports suggest that the deficit overrun was close to €280 million by the end of May and the figure rose by €80 million in one month. It is projected to go to €500 million. Thanks to a freedom of information request by Mr. Martin Wall of The Irish Times, we have received insight into the incredible correspondence ongoing within the health service. The Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Brendan Howlin—— Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: The Deputy used to be responsible for the Department. Deputy Micheál Martin: ——wrote to the Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly, urging him to take personal charge of the financial issues within the health sector. The Secretary General of the Department of Health has responded to letters from the chief executive of the HSE, Mr. Cathal Magee. The Minister abolished the board of the HSE—— Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: The Deputy abolished the health boards. Deputy Micheál Martin: ——and took pride in it but put nothing in its place. Deputy Finian McGrath: Deputy Durkan should calm down and take a breath. Deputy Micheál Martin: He said he was taking personal charge of the HSE. Deputy Ruairí Quinn: It is called taking responsibility. Deputy Simon Harris: The Deputy would not understand that. Deputy Micheál Martin: Last Thursday there was a meeting between the HSE interim board and representatives from the Department. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: The health boards were abolished by the Deputy’s party. 337 Leaders’ 11 July 2012. Questions Deputy Micheál Martin: It is extraordinary as the chairman of the HSE happens to be the Secretary General of the Department. He is chairing the meeting where the chief executive is present. The health officials are now on the board as well and they cannot agree the figures. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: That was the creation of the last Government. Deputy Micheál Martin: They cannot agree a plan on reducing the deficit. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: The Deputy’s party created that position. Deputy Micheál Martin: The chief executive, who is on the board, is writing to the chairman of the board in his capacity of Secretary General of the Department of Health. The chairman is writing back indicating that he has a better way of doing things. All the officials are on the board as well. An Ceann Comhairle: Could we have a question? Deputy Micheál Martin: One day these people are Department of Health officials and the next they are members of the board of the HSE. Deputy Michael Noonan: Who made those arrangements? Deputy Micheál Martin: It is a complete farce. An Ceann Comhairle: Could I have a question? Deputy Micheál Martin: It is farcical. There is no HSE governing board. The serious issue is that the chief executive of the HSE has indicated the assumptions underlying the health Esti- mate are no longer valid. An Ceann Comhairle: Could we have a question please? The Deputy is over his time. Deputy Micheál Martin: He was very polite. I have made it clear that I think the figures were essentially falsified at the beginning of the year and this Estimate never had a chance of coming to realisation. Deputy John Browne: They would be digging deep. An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy is over time. Deputy Micheál Martin: Is there a plan to bring the deficit into order? Given that over 2,450 beds have been closed in the service, with difficulties for young people with intellectual disabilities etc—— An Ceann Comhairle: I have said the Deputy is over time. Deputy Micheál Martin: How is it proposed to reduce the deficit—— Deputy Finian McGrath: There are no services. Deputy Micheál Martin: ——and will the Taoiseach guarantee that there will not be any erosion or undermining of front-line services to people? Will a Supplementary Estimate be introduced to deal with the crisis in health at the moment? The Taoiseach: I will take no lectures from the Deputy on the health matters in this country. 338 Leaders’ 11 July 2012. Questions Deputy Willie O’Dea: We will take a lesson on health history now. Deputy Barry Cowen: We are talking about the Government’s budget. Deputy Niall Collins: Will the Government talk about its own actions for a change? An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy should stay quiet, it is none of his business. The Taoiseach: The Deputy sat over here as Minister responsible for health matters and denied any responsibility for anything happening in the Department of Health. He said he had no responsibility. Deputy Arthur Spring: He would commission a report. The Taoiseach: The Deputy’s colleague in that Government set up the HSE and said there would be no redundancies after putting 13 health boards together. That Government poured hundreds of millions of euro in taxpayers’ money into the black hole of a financial system within the health service that was unable to deliver the services that our patients and people need. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: Hear, hear. Deputy Paudie Coffey: Perhaps the Deputy has heard of PPARS? The Taoiseach: The Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly, has been left to clean up the most unholy mess—— Deputy Barry Cowen: He is cleaning up all right. Deputy Mattie McGrath: It is a mess. The Taoiseach: It is the legacy of a Government that was out of control—— Deputy Barry Cowen: More of it. An Ceann Comhairle: I will not continue to tolerate this. The next person who starts roaring and shouting will go outside the House. Deputy Mattie McGrath: Is that on both sides? An Ceann Comhairle: It applies to both sides. Deputy Barry Cowen: What about Bernard? The Taoiseach: I will not take any lectures from Deputy Micheál Martin on the performance and legacy of what was left of the health system. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: Hear, hear. An Ceann Comhairle: I have warned Deputies. The Taoiseach: The Minister, Deputy Reilly, and the Government have set our targets for spending in the health service and every other Department. There will be no supplementary budget this year as the agreements set out last year must be achieved. With the interim board of the HSE, the Minister is dealing with the matter, and we had some discussions about that last week. It seems to me that Deputy Martin is exceptionally well briefed, even without the help of the Freedom of Information Act, but that is nothing new. 339 Leaders’ 11 July 2012. Questions Deputy Micheál Martin: It reflects very much on the Taoiseach’s commitment to trans- parency that we must use the Freedom of Information Act to get the real story of what is going on with the health service. Deputy Niall Collins: Hear, hear. Deputy Willie O’Dea: Hear, hear. An Ceann Comhairle: Could we have a question, please? Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: Hear, hear. Deputy Micheál Martin: The Taoiseach chairs the Cabinet sub-committee on health. He must be aware of the letter from the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, who gave a lecture to the Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly. He told the Minister for Health to take personal charge of this issue, so alarmed was he at the lack of governance—— Deputy Barry Cowen: Exactly. Deputy Micheál Martin: ——or control. There was no sense of who was in charge. An Ceann Comhairle: Is there a question? Deputy Micheál Martin: It was the Minister, Deputy Reilly, who abolished the board with great fanfare and trumpeting. He put no alternative or substitute in place. What we are cur- rently experiencing is farcical. There is no governance structure in place and there will not be one before the end of this year. It is absolutely disgraceful. An Ceann Comhairle: Could I have the Deputy’s supplementary question? Deputy Micheál Martin: The Taoiseach has ruled out a Supplementary Estimate. There are people out there in hospitals at the pin of their collar trying to make ends meet. They cannot understand what is ongoing at the higher levels of governance.