Hassim: Non-collaboration is not a principle. It's a Hassim: We have a warm and happy relationship policy, a long-term strategy. Essentially it is based on with AZAPO. We work together whenever we can, the view that an oppressed people cannot be ruled for and we regard them as a very significant section of the long unless they are prepared to participate in institu­ libcratory movement. But the National Forum is sim­ tions designed for their own oppression. There is no ply a forum. One doesn't know if it's ever going to direct link between the ruling class and the oppressed crystallize into an organisation. We are not prepared people, so ruling class ideas permeate through liber­ to join the forum because of the liberals associated als to the black intelligentsia, who in turn pass them with it. We do not want to rub shoulders with liberals, on to the oppressed. whatever their colour. But we welcome dialogue with So the intelligentsia is used as the tool of the ruling the progressive sections of the Forum. class to carry out its plans. Non-collaboration is there­ fore designed to snap this link between the ruling WIP: What is the present strength of A PD USA ? class and the oppressed. Hassim: We are just reviving. We had to contend But this doesn't mean that you boycott for not only with the set-backs that all the organisations boycotts' sake. No. the boycott is selectively used. It suffered in the early 1960s, but also with the severe is used only when it concretely advances the struggle. blow we received in 1971 when over 200 of our ac­ There is nothing abstract about it. For example, when tivists were detained and the rudiments of our struc­ Bantu Education was introduced in the 1950's, we felt ture destroyed. that the people should not participate in it, not by boycotting schools, which would be self-destructive, Summarized from an article in Work in progress but by the pupils, teachers and parents coming to fully The full interview and another with the general-secret­ appreciate what the aims of Bantu Education are and ary of the General and Allied Workers Union to refuse to simply submit to their aims. (GAWU) provide a useful background into current differences of outlook among the various popular and WiP: What is your relationship with A ZA PO? And community organizations. They are printed in Work do you see a role for APDUSA in the National Forum in Progress No 31, Box 93174, Yeoville 2143, South which seems to aim at some sort of coalition of all Africa. Subscriptions to WIP are R7,50 pa. Individual progressive forces outside the UDF? issues cost Rl,00. The Swedish government recently invited our National President, Sheena Duncan, to visit Sweden in order to inform their Foreign Affairs Ministry on recent developments in apartheid legislation. She wrote this account of her trip in a circular to the Black Sash regional committees. Sheena Duncan in Sweden was invited to go to Sweden by the Foreign Affairs Swedish businessmen who do not agree at all with their I Ministry of the Swedish Government. I was there government's stand on South Africa. I am sure that from June 13 to 21 and I must say I was looked after in a there are many ordinary people in Sweden who do not style to which I wish I had had the chance to become ac­ even know where South Africa is but those whom I met customed. were concerned and anxious to do whatever is possible I have never before been escorted past all immigra­ to assist in the work for justice, democracy and peace in tion/emigration/customs queues and housed in comfort this country. in a VIP lounge while someone else whisks my passport Sweden is a 'peace' country. They have not fought a away and attends to all formalities while I sit in an war since 1932 and are generally determined to keep it armchair before being ushered into a lo-o-ong black that way but they are honest and frank about their regret limousine. It was super. for certain actions their country took during the Nazi oc­ Sweden is seriously interested in South Africa. I trod cupation of Europe in the Second World War. on the heels of Alan Boesak and assorted members of They are vulnerable in the extreme in the contempor­ the UDF and various other organisations all the way. All ' ary East-West conflict and issues of nuclear warfare are the people I met were involved in one way or another an over-riding anxiety, as they are in all European coun­ with Southern African issues so perhaps one gets a dis­ tries. torted impression and I know that there are many Sweden is a most democratic country and their 6 THE BLACK SASH —August 1984 'socialism' is a very healthy combination of free enter­ worst western culture comes through triumphant at Sun prise and social democracy. Taxation is extremely high City etc. The best, whose civilising influences and chal­ but so is the standard of living. The only really controlled lenging thinking we so badly need, stay away. Civilised reiail trade I came across was the sale of liquor. You values have to challenge and weaken apartheid struc­ know me. I eventually ran out of the duly-free brandy I tures with which they are totally incompatible. arrived with and set out to buy some more. I searched in Towards the end of my visit to Stockholm there was a press briefing- One reporter from a conservative news­ paper which tends to oppose the present government in Sweden is a most democratic country and their Sweden made rather an issue about me being 'hidden socialism is a very healthy combination of free away' from the public and shielded from contact with op­ enterprise and social democracy. position and businessmen. She attacked the Foreign Af­ fairs ministry in her newspaper column along those lines. This was not quite fair. She along with all the other vain for a bottle store. Eventually I discovered that sale media representatives, had received advance notifica- of all liquor is a State monopoly and when one finds the right place, one joins a queue in a vast room reminiscent of the Bantu Commissioner's office anywhere. Once you get to the head of the queue you can buy anything you I am against cultural boycotts. Our experience like at a huge price and, unlike any Commissioner's of­ here has been that all the worst western culture fice, those who attend to you are pleasant and helpful. comes through triumphant at places like Sun All other shops are just like those here or in America City. The best, whose civilising influences and or anywhere else in Europe — expensive, flashy, con­ challenging thinking we so badly need, stay sumer orientated. away. Civilised values have to challenge and My programme included meetings with both main weaken apartheid structures with which they are political parties, Social Democratic and Liberal, mem­ totally incompatible. bers of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the Nordic Af­ rica Institute at Uppsala, AIC (the International Centre tion of my visit and the programme which was arranged of the Labour movement), SIDA (the Swedish Interna­ forme. The others all made arrangements for interviews tional Development Authority), assorted Ambassadors to be slotted in. The fact that her newspaper did not do and ex-Ambassdors, Amnesty, a Judge who is the Chair­ so was entirely their own omission and certainly there man of the Swedish section of the International Com­ was no conspiracy to keep me from meeting anyone who mission of Jurists, lunch with a cabinet minister, dozens wanted to see me. Businessmen invested in South Africa of press and radio interviews etc. were not falling over themselves to try to meet me! I was speaking all the time from our Black Sash ex­ The Star also reported that I had refused to talk about perience about removals, denationalisation, influx con­ South African law. I do not know who the Star corres­ trol, repression, the new Constitution and so on. I found pondent in Stockholm is because no-one introduced people interested, concerned, well-informed and willing himself to me as such. As I spent the whole time talking to take action. about nothing else but South African law, I cannot im­ One question which cropped up all the time was about agine who he/she can be. disinvestment. New legislation had just been passed in None of that makes any difference to what was a most useful and exciting visit. Wc have many good friends I was speaking all the time from our Black Sash over there and many new contacts and 1 enjoyed every experience about removals, denationalisation, minute of my visit. influx control, repression and the new constitu­ Stockholm must be one of the most beautiful cities in tion. I found people interested, concerned, well- the world and I met with nothing but kindness, interest informed and willing to take action. and concern. The saga of my travels will continue in the next instal­ ment. I am consumed by the burning necessity to com­ Sweden about investment in South Africa. I was told municate to anyone who will listen all the facts about life that it is their intention to publish a simplified analysis of in South Africa. what this legislation is so that it can be understood both in South Africa and in other countries in Europe.