House of Commons Home Affairs Committee The work of the Home Secretary Oral evidence 16 December 2013 Rt Hon Theresa May MP, Home Secretary Ordered by The House of Commons to be printed 16 December 2013 HC 235-iii Published on 28 January 2014 by authority of the House of Commons London: The Stationery Office Limited £6.00 The Home Affairs Committee The Home Affairs Committee is appointed by the House of Commons to examine the expenditure, administration, and policy of the Home Office and its associated public bodies. Current membership Rt Hon Keith Vaz MP (Labour, Leicester East) (Chair) Ian Austin MP (Labour, Dudley North) Nicola Blackwood MP (Conservative, Oxford West and Abingdon) James Clappison MP (Conservative, Hertsmere) Michael Ellis MP (Conservative, Northampton North) Paul Flynn MP (Labour, Newport West) Lorraine Fullbrook MP (Conservative, South Ribble) Dr Julian Huppert MP (Liberal Democrat, Cambridge) Yasmin Qureshi MP (Labour, Bolton South East) Mark Reckless MP (Conservative, Rochester and Strood) Mr David Winnick MP (Labour, Walsall North) The following Members were also members of the Committee during the Parliament. Rt Hon Alun Michael (Labour & Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth) Karl Turner MP (Labour, Kingston upon Hull East) Steve McCabe MP (Labour, Birmingham Selly Oak) Bridget Phillipson MP (Labour, Houghton and Sunderland South) Chris Ruane MP (Labour, Vale of Clwyd) Powers The Committee is one of the departmental select committees, the powers of which are set out in House of Commons Standing Orders, principally in SO No 152. These are available on the Internet via www.parliament.uk. Publication The Reports and evidence of the Committee are published by The Stationery Office by Order of the House. All publications of the Committee (including press notices) are on the Internet at www.parliament.uk/homeaffairscom. Committee staff The current staff of the Committee are Tom Healey (Clerk), Robert Cope (Second Clerk), Duma Langton (Committee Specialist), Eleanor Scarnell (Committee Specialist), Andy Boyd (Senior Committee Assistant), Iwona Hankin (Committee Support Officer) and Alex Paterson (Select Committee Media Officer). Contacts All correspondence should be addressed to the Clerk of the Home Affairs Committee, House of Commons, 7 Millbank, London SW1P 3JA. The telephone number for general enquiries is 020 7219 2049; the Committee’s email address is [email protected]. List of witnesses Monday 16 December 2013 Page Rt Hon Theresa May MP, Home Secretary Ev 33 Related oral evidence 2013-14 The work of the Home Secretary, 16 July 2013, HC 235-i [Ev 1-15] The work of the Home Secretary, 15 October 2013, HC 235-ii [Ev 16-32] cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [SO] Processed: [24-01-2014 17:15] Job: 036429 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/036429/036429_o001_steve_HC 235-iii CORRECTED transcript.xml Home Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 33 Monday 16 December 2013 Members present: Keith Vaz (Chair) Ian Austin Dr Julian Huppert Michael Ellis Mark Reckless Paul Flynn Mr David Winnick ________________ Examination of Witness Witness: Rt Hon Theresa May MP, Home Secretary, gave evidence. Q172 Chair: I call the Committee to order and While not criticising in any way the way in which the welcome the Home Secretary. This is part of the ISC does its job, the ISC members are nominated by Select Committee’s normal examination of the Home the Prime Minister. The members of the Committee Secretary. Today we are concentrating in particular on are not elected by Parliament. The names go before counter-terrorism as part of our counter-terrorism Parliament for approval. They do not run for election, inquiries, but there are other issues, of course, that we in the same way as other parliamentary Committees will raise with her. Could I ask all Members present have a session where people put their names forward to declare any other interests other than what is in the and get elected. Of course, they brief the ISC and we Register of Members’ Interests? Thank you. have heard that the ISC obviously brief them about Home Secretary, could I start on counter-terrorism the questions that are being given. Given that they are with the concerns of this Committee? We wrote to appointed by the Prime Minister and that the Prime Andrew Parker and I have also written to Kim Minister also appoints the heads of the security Darroch over a long-standing invitation for Kim services, do you not feel that there should be better Darroch to come and explain what the National transparency in respect of the way in which these Security Council was doing. You wrote back and said matters operate? that you did not want Andrew Parker to appear before Mrs May: The issue of transparency was indeed this Committee. Could you explain why? addressed by the new arrangements that were Mrs May: Yes, Chairman. There is a structure, which established in the Justice and Security Act. Obviously, is being established in parliamentary terms, that prior to those new arrangements it was not the case enables the proper oversight by Parliament of the that the intelligence heads gave evidence in public to security and intelligence agencies. That is the the ISC. That has happened for the first time. That Intelligence and Security Committee, and that took place a matter of a few weeks ago. As I say, that Committee takes evidence from the Director General is the first time that that has taken place, but the ISC of MI5, as it does indeed from the heads of the other structure is the one that has been deemed the security and intelligence agencies. As you will be appropriate one. For obvious reasons in terms of those aware, following the Justice and Security Act that this matters that it is necessary to discuss in secret, the Government passed, those individuals now give ISC is the appropriate structure for the security and evidence in public session to that Committee. That is intelligence agency heads to give their comments, to an enhancement of the oversight that has taken place be questioned and to be challenged on behalf of and it is on that basis that I think it is appropriate, Parliament. given that that is the structure for Parliament to oversee those agencies, it is in that format that the Q174 Chair: One of the problems is they made a Director General should give evidence, rather than to number of assertions before the ISC that are highly this Committee. relevant to what we are doing and if we do not hear from them, but only hear from you and you cannot Q173 Chair: The Committee is unanimous on the give us anything more than you would normally give view—there are no divisions between the parties— us as Home Secretary, then some of those questions that if we are conducting an inquiry into counter- and some of the statements that they have raised terrorism and we have heard a number of very serious cannot be answered. I am going to give you an points made by the editor of The Guardian in example. It was Mr Parker who told the ISC about particular that we felt more appropriately put to Mr what The Guardian has done, “It is the gift that they Parker, we really ought to be examining Mr Parker. I need to evade us and strike us at will.” At the last have had a look at the Act that set up the new hearing, we asked you whether you agreed with that arrangements and the debates that surrounded the assessment and you said, “I do indeed agree with it. arrangements, and nowhere in any of the debates has It is a very clear statement.” anyone said that, because there is an obligation to Do you have any evidence to support what Mr Parker appear before the Intelligence and Security has said? Select Committees are about gathering Committee, Mr Parker or anyone else should not evidence. Have you seen evidence? To use that as an appear before Home Affairs. Obviously, we scrutinise example, he makes a statement and no one doubts the the work of the Home Office. You are the Home fact that he is able to make the statement. He has made Secretary. You are ultimately responsible for the the statement. No evidence was put before the ISC to decisions that are taken. justify that statement, or indeed the statement made cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [24-01-2014 17:15] Job: 036429 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/036429/036429_o001_steve_HC 235-iii CORRECTED transcript.xml Ev 34 Home Affairs Committee: Evidence 16 December 2013 Rt Hon Theresa May MP by Sir John Sawers that our enemies are rubbing their evidence that means that they know that our enemies hands with glee. These statements are made, but no are rubbing their hands with glee. Have you seen such evidence is put forward. Do you have any evidence evidence or not? We are all appalled by everything, today to support the views put forward by those two on one side or the other, depending on which side we gentlemen? are on. We are either appalled that it has been released Mrs May: Chairman, I might refer you to the evidence or appalled that it has not been released. Being that I gave in my last appearance before this appalled is not evidence. Have you seen evidence? Committee, when I was challenged by Mr Ellis on this Mrs May: I have obviously been in discussion with issue and he referred to the speech that the Director the agency for which I am responsible and I have been General of MI5 had given.