University of Florida Samuel Proctor Oral History Program Jacksonville, Florida's Civil Rights Interviewee: Rodney Hurst Interviewer: Kristin Dodek Date of Interview: February 18, 2005 D: I'm Kristin Dodek. It is February 18, 2005. I'm here in Jacksonville, Florida, with Rodney Hurst. Could you start by stating when you were born and giving me a little bit about your background in Jacksonville. H: I was born on March 2, 1944. I'm sixty-years-old, sixty-one next month. D: You look good by the way. H: Thank you. I was president of the Youth Council of the NAACP at age sixteen during the Ax Handle Saturday and the sit-in demonstrations. Do you want a lot of detail? D: Maybe just a little bit about your education, family. H: I've lived in Jacksonville all of my life. I'm a veteran, served four years in the military. [I] was the first black male they hired at the Prudential South Central Home Office here in Jacksonville. [I] received a fellowship from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting for studying journalism and broadcasting, one of the first thirteen, which also included Jim Lehrer [anchor for The NewsHour on PBS], among other people. [I] was the first black to co-host a television show here in Jacksonville on public television. [I] served two consecutive terms on the city council here in Jacksonville, wrote the youth employment programs for the city, worked in the anti-poverty program. I was the first black to be executive director of the state construction industry licensing board; I was the director for four and a half years. I was the first black to head up a National Construction Industry Organization. I've lived in Jacksonville, worked in Jacksonville, worked in the area in both the political arena community service and social service programs for all of my life. D: What makes a sixteen-year-old not only willing to risk life and limb, but to be the leader of a group of people willing to do so? B: When I was eleven years old, I was in eighth grade, and I was in an American history class that was taught by Rutledge Pearson, who was the advisor to the Youth Council, NAACP. The unique thing about Rutledge's class as an American history class was that he did not teach it from the textbook. He taught American history with a lot of outside reference books, so when we studied the relevant contributions that folk made to American history, we studied the traditional names, but we also studied Sojourner Truth and Harriet Tubman and Benjamin Banneker and Charles Drew -the names that you don't ordinarily read in a school system-approved textbook. From that, he would encourage his students and students at the ninth grade school that I attended to join the Youth Council NAACP, and a lot of us did. We began to work on projects that became a classroom outside of the classroom, a classroom in the community. [There was] Strict segregation Jacksonville at the time, late 1950s, but we JAXCVR2 Hurst Page 2 were going down to courtrooms and we were observing what was happening in the courtrooms and we were studying as best we could what was happening in the political arena. Two years later, they opened a regional Sears store with no black salespeople. Of course, Sears was not unique, there were not any other black salespersons in the downtown area. In 1957 [1959?], we picketed Sears, much to the chagrin of a number of white governmental types. Black folk who were either on the payroll of or involved with city government at the time, even though there were no black elected officials at that time. Interestingly, the president of the NAACP at that time was Earl Johnson, who later became legal counsel to the NAACP and who I served with on the city council during that time. In 1960, when the so-called wave of sit-in demonstrations began, during the summer of that year was when we went through our orientation workshops. The NAACP was an interesting organization in the annals of civil rights groups; it obviously is the oldest, being founded in 1909. But it was one that made sure that they protected not only their members, but young people who got involved in demonstrations. Later on in the movement, some civil rights organizations embraced what was called "jail without bail" and things like that. Unfortunately, in some of those instances, young girls, coeds were raped. Young black men and white men who espoused the "jail without bail" concept and ideology were beaten, some even killed, as a result. The NAACP did not want to see their folk in jail and at the hands of white southern law enforcement officers, and always would work vigorously to defend any of us who were arrested and made sure that we didn't stay in jail if we were arrested. But with all of that as a backdrop, and with everything that Rutledge taught in the classroom and what we learned outside of the classroom . the following year, after my eighth grade year, I was at Isaiah Blocker Junior High School, and was in Rutledge Pearson's class for a civics course. So, American history and Civics, how natural could it be? He taught me two consecutive years [we] really had almost a college level class. Even though I went to a high school where he wasn't teaching, because we were still at a junior high school, I was then actively involved in the Youth Council NAACP. My knowledge, my study, my learning, my involvement in the community continued after those junior high school years, and then of course in 1960 with what happened with sit-in demonstrations and Ax Handle Saturday. D: In 1959, Frank Hampton sues to desegregate the city's golf courses, but my knowledge of what I came across in some of the NAACP papers, from 1958- 1959, indicates they were having trouble with membership; the membership was a little bit low. What do you think the overall feeling towards civil rights was within the black community during this period. H: Well, first of all, I'm not a fan of Frank Hampton. ( JAXCVR 2 Hurst Page 3 D: He was an ex-police officer, right?. H: He was an ex-police officer, and in fact, I ran against Frank for city council. [I] beat Frank Hampton for city council. My involvement with him goes back to the time that I was involved. Our activities were not supported by Frank Hampton. Frank, by varying accounts, was on the payroll with the city at that time. Someone said that there was a position called expediter, and several blacks were involved in those positions under Haydon Burns [Jacksonville mayor 1949- 64; Governor of Florida, 1964-66]. I know that Frank, who was a golfer, and several [other] golfers, filed suit against the golf course. I think the city of Jacksonville had two municipally owned golf courses, and blacks were only allowed to play one day or whatever the circumstances were, and he filed suits against both. Later, the city built the city auditorium and the coliseum, and I think they amended their suits to include public accommodations based on what the city filed at that time. What also happened was that the NAACP asked Frank and Earnest Jackson, who was his attorney, to let them modify his suit to include public accommodations, so that was the involvement there. But Frank had a local citizens group, which was not affiliated with any national organizations, and he was also the chairman of the trustee board of a major black Baptist church here in town. We never got permission to have a mass meeting for the NAACP in that church. Understand that back during those days, communications in the black community was mostly word of mouth. There were black weekly papers, which got the word out as best they could, but depending upon when their deadline was when the word got out- so if their deadline was Tuesday and the paper came out on Friday, but we didn't make a decision until Wednesday-then we didn't get in that particular edition of the weekly newspaper. So the churches became the CNN, the conduit for communications and news at that time; that's how the word got out about what we were doing. The NAACP has always had fluctuating memberships. When there is not a crisis, people are not that oriented to join a group or organization that's involved in an ongoing fight. The NAACP motto and slogan over the years has been "We're fighting to put ourselves out of business," but obviously that ain't going to happen because of just the nature of what we deal with in this country and the various forms of discrimination. So as we got involved in issues, you would see an immediate spike to NAACP membership. Also understand too that joining the NAACP during that time was not like being a member of the "Book of the Month Club." People resented, whites resented, blacks joining the NAACP in some states. The state of Alabama, for instance, sought to get the membership roll of the NAACP, and the NAACP's membership rolls are not available to public scrutiny unless the organization so wanted. So the NAACP said no, the state of Alabama, the city of Montgomery, the city of Birmingham, you can't have our membership rolls, and the state of Alabama outlawed the NAACP in the state in JAXCVR2 Hurst Page4 the late 1950s.