WTH is going on with impeachment? Andy McCarthy on the case, the 25th Amendment Episode #85 | January 12, 2021 | Danielle Pletka, Marc Thiessen, and Andy McCarthy Danielle Pletka: Hi, I'm Danielle Pletka. Marc Thiessen: And I'm Marc Thiessen. Danielle Pletka: Marc Thiessen: You say it with more enthusiasm every time, because this is the best name for a podcast ever. We came up with it because it's never been more appropriate. And particularly 2020, the year of what the hell. And we thought the new year, okay, things will get better, and 2021 is starting out with even more what the hell than 2020. Danielle Pletka: Right. If you thought you hated 2020, just wait. So, before we go onto the latest of the what the hell, and everybody's going to be able to guess what we're talking about, let us remind you, please subscribe. Please tell your friends. Please review. Please don't hesitate to reach out to us with ideas. We love hearing from you. Now, Marc, what the hell this week? Marc Thiessen: Donald Trump is about to become the first president in American history to be impeached not once, but twice. And Nancy Pelosi has announced that if Mike Pence doesn't invoke the 25th Amendment and remove Donald Trump from office, the House is going to move forward and impeach him again. And she's called General Milley to make sure that Donald Trump can't launch a nuclear strike and says that the danger to the Republic is such that we cannot wait another minute. And so, we are scheduling the vote on Wednesday and the Senate will take it up on January 19th at the earliest because the Republic cannot wait another day with Donald Trump in office. What do you think? Danielle Pletka: Well, look, we can diminish this. The problem with Nancy Pelosi and generally with the Democratic Party is that they take a really solid hand in this instance and they overplay it. And of course, Nancy Pelosi cannot resist the theatrics, the operatics that are going around. She cannot resist, if I can say this fairly, exploiting the absolute outrage that occurred on Capitol Hill that you and I talked about in our last podcast, the absolute outrage. She can't resist exploiting it, exaggerating, and going that one step further. But the bottom line is that I think that a lot of people, probably you and I included, believe that Donald Trump has this time around, if the first time you don't succeed, this time around, Donald Trump has actually committed impeachable offenses. 2 Marc Thiessen: Oh, I agree with you 100%. I mean, I was on Fox News on the show called the Wise Guys yesterday. We're supposed have a segment on 25th Amendment and impeachment and sort of got side railed on to other elements of the atrocities that happened on Wednesday. And Trey at the end said, "Well, I'll assume none of you are for impeachment." And I said, "Well, hold on. Don't assume I'm not for impeachment." And I laid out the case why I think there're two things. One, I think Donald Trump did commit an impeachable offense. And then, there's a question of whether as a matter of prudential judgment, it is prudential to proceed with impeachment considering the fact that he's leaving office in a matter of days. I think it's unquestionable that what he did was impeachable, a high crime and misdemeanor, inciting a riot and basically refusing to defend the Constitution, pressuring Congress to do something that was clearly unconstitutional, ginning up a crowd with lies about the election, and then sending them off to Capitol Hill to protest, to pressure those members. Marc Thiessen: And then, it got out of control. I think it's clear Donald Trump didn't intend for them to storm the Capitol, but you know what? If you're in the forest playing with matches in California and you light a forest fire that ravages people's homes and kills people, I'm sorry, playing with matches makes you culpable. Even if you didn't mean to set the forest fire. And that's what Donald Trump did. Danielle Pletka: Right. But I think it goes further than that, Marc, because I agree with all the points you just made, but I think it goes further because had the president popped up, ran into the Oval Office, gone to the podium, and said, "Guys, this is not what I meant. Get out. I meant peaceful protest. Don't do this." That would have been one thing, that might've been exculpating. But instead, what he did was he sat on his hands, reportedly fiddling with his remote. What he did was he never reached out to his vice president to see if he was okay. Danielle Pletka: What he never did was reach back to the leadership. A decent human being would have freaking called Nancy Pelosi and Mitch McConnell and apologized. And instead, now we all know Donald Trump is not a decent human being, but he did none of that. He had to get muscled into doing what approximated the right thing. Marc Thiessen: And then on top of that, I mean, five people died including two Capitol Police officers. And by the way, that Trump had to be bullied into lowering the flag at the White House to half-staff, resisted doing it. So the flag was flying at half-staff on the Capitol, but at full-staff at the White House for days after this event. Danielle Pletka: It's disgusting. He has not called the families. Pence has called the families. He cannot bring himself to do it. This man is so unfit, it's just- Marc Thiessen: So this is the argument for impeachment, he crossed the line on Wednesday that he had not previously crossed where he demonstrated himself to be completely unfit for the office of president. As I pointed out, look, after the election I tried to give him my best advice, which was to accept the results of the election and say you're going to run again in 2024. And you really actually do have a chance of retaking the presidency, but you have to behave normally in order to preserve that option. AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE | 1789 Massachusetts Ave, NW, Washington, DC 20036 | 202.862.5800 | aei.org 3 Marc Thiessen: And not only did he reject that advice, he went the other way. But the reality is he is still a live option, he could conceivably get elected in four years' time because his movement, while a large number of people are absolutely horrified by what happened on Capitol Hill on Wednesday, there are a significant number of people who don't blame the president for what happened and would support him again for president. And so the question becomes, it's not so much the issue of removal because he's going to be removed by the Constitution on January 20th. The question is, should he be disqualified formally from ever pursuing the presidency again? Marc Thiessen: And I think there's a very strong argument for that. There's a countervailing argument that says, we need to put this behind us and starting out the Biden presidency this way is going to divide rather than unite us. And so, it's a really tough call. I probably lean towards cauterizing the wound and making sure it doesn't come back. But there's good arguments on both sides. Danielle Pletka: So I'm with you. From my standpoint, I just play this forward. If Donald Trump doesn't become the Republican nominee in 2024, and he isn't precluded from becoming a nominee, what'll happen is he will run as an independent and he will then damage not just the Republican Party, but our political system. The price for America, for our Constitution, for our democracy, I think is too high. I'll be interested to hear what other people think. Don't hesitate to circle back to us to tell us you think something different, folks. But in addition to all of this, there are a lot of legalities here. There are questions about impeachment. Can you impeach a former president? There are questions about the 25th amendment. Is it real? Is it live? Is that an option? Danielle Pletka: Just because Nancy Pelosi says it doesn't make it right, but it doesn't make it wrong either. We need to learn more about this. And we've got a great guy with us to do just that. Many of you know Andy McCarthy from his work at National Review, but he was an assistant US D.A. for the infamous Southern District of New York. He led the 1995 prosecution against Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, the infamous blind sheikh and others in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing. He's prosecuted terrorists who bombed US embassies. He is a legal expert, a thoughtful guy, a wonderful writer. So we're super lucky to have him to talk these issues. Marc Thiessen: Andy, welcome to the podcast. Andy McCarthy: Great to be with both of you. Thanks. Marc Thiessen: So listen, here's the million dollar question. It looks like Nancy Pelosi is going to be moving forward with impeachment this week. Before we get into the technicalities of can it happen? Should it happen? And all the rest of it, basic question: Did Donald Trump commit an impeachable offense last week? Andy McCarthy: I think he did.