American Meteorological Society University Corporation for Atmospheric Research Tape R ecorded Interview Project Interview of Syukuro Manabe August 23, 2007 Interviewer: Ronald Stouffer Stouffer: Okay, you tell m e when I should start. Okay, so we're here today to interview Suki M anabe on his research career. W e're at the G eophysical Fluid D ynam ics Laboratory in Princeton, N ew Jersey and it's A ugust 23rd 2007. M y nam e's R on Stouffer and I've been a research m eteorologist here for the last thirty years, and for the first tw enty years I w orked w ith Suki. A nd, w e're going to do an interview w hich is going to start w ith his background, and then look at the first tw enty years of his career, and then the second tw enty years, and then sum m arize his career. So, to Suki the w arm est w elcom e, and to start I'm going to ask you w here you w ere born and a little bit about your fam ily. M ANABE: Yeah. The -- I was born in 1931, w hich is alm ost 76 years ago, w hich is three quarter of century ago. I w as born in one of four islands -- the sm allest of the four large islands of Japan -- it's called Shikoku island. A nd, the place I w as born is very m ountainous region. It's a m ajor m ountain range in Shikoku Island and m ostly (inaudible) farm ers. A nd m y father w as a general practitioner in this sm all village, and he w as looking after all these people at that tim e in a sm all village and follow ing m y grandfather w ho w as also a physician. So, I always thought that I w ant to becom e a doctor. And, you know that to get in to m edical school in Japan you have to do very w ell at school and do very w ell in the entrance exam inations. So, actually, I studied extrem ely hard. Y ou know, som etim es I slept, you know , five-six hours every night, and studied very hard and finally I got in to a m edical school at the university of Tokyo w hich is the m ost com petitive school there. And, so I w as very happy getting in there. B ut then I suddenly realized, "D o I really like biology?" A nd at that tim e biology w as m ostly m em orizing subjects. So, I usually cram m ed in the last day -- the day before the exam -- everything I can squeeze in m y brain. I rem em ber enjoying studying biology. It actually turned out biology has been a very decent science looking back, w hat has happened in the field of biology. But, I never thought of that then. A nd so I thought physical science, particularly physics, w as m uch m ore interesting because you pose the question, you answ er the question logically, you 1 solve the question -- w hich I thought w ould be m uch m ore enjoyable. A nd -- so, I decided at that point to change field from m edicine to physical science; particularly I decided to go into physics. But, then I realized I'm not that good in m ath to get in to the difficult physics. I decided to choose geophysics branch of the physics departm ent and -- but then, I did get the [culture?] of the shock because once I got in the physics departm ent, som e of the kids w ere -- you know - - w ay ahead of m e, and I had a hard tim e even passing the exam s. But, then I decided not to just follow lecture in the classroom . U sually, you end up -­ because you're in classroom I never understood w as the professor is telling m e -­ so I kept struggling, struggling, but eventually I decided, "I’m not going to listen to this professor anyw ay. I can never keep up w ith the pace of these course lectures." So, I decided to study at m y ow n, at m y ow n slow pace, and try to sort out in m y m ind until I get satisfied. A nd so the next year I have to take the course again -- I m ean -- the exam again. A nd the next year I did pretty w ell, I get through m ost of the exam s in flying color. And, so, I learned how to think physically about problem s. So, it w as never satisfied just getting the solution. N ever satisfied. Y ou try to understand w hat is the physical im plication of the solutions. And, so this w as a very good thing that happened to m e. And, so after graduating U niversity of Tokyo I w ant to graduate school and geophysics departm ent of geophysics at the U niversity of Tokyo. STOU FFER: But -- just to interrupt you for a second. MANABE: Yeah. STOU FFER: H ow 'd your father feel about you changing out since there w as this history of being a m edical doctor? A nd I think your brother's a m edical doctor, or - M A NABE: That's right. So, father never appreciate how other professions -- there are so m any decent professions in this society other than m edical doctor -- but, he alw ays thought that m edical doctor w as the m ost [right?] profession. But, you can do everything on your own; you can be independent, you don't have to w ork for anybody, but still you can m ake a decent living. So, it w as a great disappointm ent to him because, sending his son to a m edical school -- you know - - he w as very proud of m e. B ut then, son is now w anting to do this obscure thing of geophysics, and he couldn't even distinguish betw een geophysics and astrophysics, so he thought I w as spending all m y tim e stargazing. STOUFFER: (Laughing) So you -- pick up your story again. MANABE: Yeah. STOUFFER: So, you w ere going to graduate school, so how did you get in m odeling w eather and clim ate? M A NABE: Yeah. So, that is the next thing that -- so, I got in the departm ent of geophysics, the graduate school of geophysics at the U niversity of Tokyo. And, 2 so I have to choose the subject, w hich one of geophysics. Because you have seism ologies, theoretical physics, atm ospheric m eteorology at that tim e, and oceanography and electrom agnetism . B ut -- so, w hich one do I w ant to do? Seism ology I thought you can never see through. A nd so, although seism ology is considered to be a very im portant topic in that tim e, I said I elim inate that -- I never go that -- doing m easurem ent, doing m easurem ent and using m y hand, so I elim inate it. The electrom agnetism I thought I w as good at it. O f course electrom agnetism w as very good. B ut then, I'm not very good in creating all these sockets, and then trying to am plify all these signal com ing from the upper atm osphere. So, I said, "I'm not good at that." So, you know , I elim inated biology a long tim e ago because I'm not good at m em orizing anything. I elim inated theoretical physics a long tim e ago because I'm not good at m ath, or good for m athem atics. So, it w as a process of elim ination, I elim inated these theoretic things because I'm not good at using m y hands and doing experim ents -­ creating experim ental operators. So, keep elim inating, elim inating. A nd then, finally, I said, "m eteorology m ay be good because som ebody else m ake a m easurem ent for you, and then you can use these datas, and you don't have to m em orize very m uch because they're doing m uch at m eteorology in that tim e anyway." Right? STOUFFER: Yep. M A NABE: And I can see through everything. Cloud is beautiful, sky is beautiful, it's so w onderful! A nd then, still you use a basic role of physics at that tim e -- I thought -- although, I don't know at that stage, m eteorology is m ore of an art than a science. So -- but then I thought I w ould apply physics into m eteorology -­ m ake m eteorology alike. That's w hat I said I w ould do at that tim e. So, I chose m eteorology, and w hen I got in graduate school it w as early 1950s; to be exact it w as 1953. A nd in 1953, the tim e w hen the U nited States, at least for advanced study, som e year around 1950 -- it m ight have been 1949. (Inaudible) [M oiner?] created -- he w as looking for -- som e theory to apply his electronic com puter w hich he w as directing. I didn't know he fathered the electronic com puter -- he's the father of the m any other things -- but electronic com puter is one of the things.