376 KC 8DPP E.M. FISHER XN(PRIVATE) (SUPPRESSION ORDER LIFTED 22.8.95) 1 WITNESS E.M. FISHER, EXAMINATION BY MS SIMPSON CONTINUING IN 2 PRIVATE 3 Q. Looking at the statement, now before you, it is a copy 4 actually of a document which has a signature at the back 5 of it. 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Do you recognise that as a copy of the statement that 8 you provided to the Commission and signed by you. 9 A. Yes, I do. 10 EXHIBIT 6 MFI 6 tendered by Ms Simpson. Admitted. 11 Q. You have told the Commissioner that the notebook and the 12 tapes of were left at the Aboriginal Legal Rights 13 Movement for Doreen Kartinyeri. Since the time that you 14 left them there, have you had access to them again, at 15 all. 16 A. No, I handed those to Doreen and said `They now, they 17 are yours. They are the property of the Ngarrindjeri 18 women and do with them as you wish.' 19 Q. I think, during the 7.30 Report, last night, that is, on 20 7 August 1995, there was some film of tapes and 21 notebooks. Were they tapes and notebooks in your 22 possession during that interview. 23 A. They were actually produced by - they were the ones that 24 I had. You see, the notebook was not in my possession. 25 It is not in my possession. Has not been in my 26 possession since I took it to the office of the ALRM to 27 give to Doreen. And I said to Doreen on the phone 28 `That's yours.' And the tape is - seems like the tape 29 that was my, what would you call it? - donor's copy from 30 the Mortlock Library. When I say `donor's copy', that 31 would be a small - not a reel-to-reel tape. It would be 32 a cassette, yes. 33 COMSR 34 Q. I am not quite clear about this: you are saying you 35 really can't say whether they were the tapes, your tapes 36 that you took or not; is that what you are saying. 37 A. The thing is that there was a donor's copy of the tape 38 which I gave to Doreen Kartinyeri. Reel-to-reel tapes 377 KC 8DPP E.M. FISHER XN(PRIVATE) (SUPPRESSION ORDER LIFTED 22.8.95) 1 are put away safely, so I am assuming that that was my 2 copy of the donor's tape, unless she has made a copy of 3 it, you see. Unless she had made a further copy of it, 4 but, yes. 5 XN 6 Q. Looking at the document now before you, which I would 7 like you to compare with the copy that you have just 8 seen and tell the Commissioner - 9 A. That is the copy of it. This is the original. 10 Q. That is the original of the statement. 11 A. Yes, it has got the holes on the back from my IBM 12 typewriter. Yes, that is the one. 13 MS SIMPSON: I tender the original as part of that, 14 for completeness. 15 COMSR: Included in Exhibit no.6? 16 MS SIMPSON: Yes. 17 COMSR: I think we will remove the copy and 18 replace it with the original statement. 19 XN 20 Q. Have you got the copy in front of you now. 21 A. Yes. Lines 22 - 36 Suppressed 37 Q. When you made this statement, did you refer to your 38 notebook or 378 KC 8DPP E.M. FISHER XN(PRIVATE) (SUPPRESSION ORDER LIFTED 22.8.95) 1 were you simply recalling from memory. 2 A. When I made this statement? 3 Q. Yes. 4 A. I am trying to remember when I was sitting at my 5 typewriter typing this, quite frankly. And I can't 6 recall whether I typed this beforehand or afterwards. 7 So, it was probably afterwards, but I can't absolutely 8 be sure. I am terribly sorry, but I think it was 9 afterwards that I - after I had taken the tapes in, 10 because it was - what date in June was it that Sarah 11 Milera appeared on the front page? And I think I didn't 12 have time to type this then. It must have been later, 13 yes. 14 Q. Does it help you to refer to the fact that you have 15 addressed this statement to the Commissioner. 16 A. Yes, it must have been later, yes. 17 Q. The statement that you have - 18 A. Therefore, it is from memory you may say, yes. 19 Q. The statement covers a number of matters which I 20 understand do not cover, however, secret or sacred 21 information, is that right. 22 A. Yes. Lines 23 - 38 suppressed 34 COMSR 35 Q. Just so that I am clear about this; the detail that you 36 propose to give me of the secret sacred women's business 37 - I think it has been put to you - is not included in 38 this. 379 KC 8DPP E.M. FISHER XN(PRIVATE) (SUPPRESSION ORDER LIFTED 22.8.95) 1 A. No. 2 32 CONTINUED Page 380 suppressed 381 CJ 8EPP E.M. FISHER XN (PRIVATE) (SUPPRESSION ORDER LIFTED 22.8.95) 1 5 COMSR 6 Q. Was that information given to you for the purpose of 7 recording. 8 A. This is 1967. Gladys wanted her to speak. She wanted 9 her to give this information to someone that she felt 10 she could trust. I only hope I'm not breaking that 11 trust. 12 Q. I understood you to say at that time you were doing work 13 on preparing what was an account of Aboriginal culture. 14 A. On Yorke Peninsula. Glady asked me - and when Gladys 15 Elphick commanded, I obeyed. She had very much a 16 judicial air about her, if you don't mind me saying. 17 She would wave her walking stick and say `This is what 18 will happen', and that is it, you know. 19 Q. You might be able to help me to this extent: Are you 20 able to indicate which of that is published knowledge 21 and which of it is the secret. 22 A. I am at a very grave disadvantage. I have not studied 23 the Ngarrindjeri culture. I only wrote what Glady 24 indicated I must write. I have no knowledge, in fact, 25 of the Ngarrindjeri culture in terms of, I have not been 26 permitted - although I was invited down there by , 27 and now I regret with all of my heart that I didn't make 28 an attempt to go down every month and record those old 29 women as I recorded Glady. I cannot - I wept. I 30 realised that I was alone. I had no intention - I am 31 not thrilled to be here - 32 Q. Don't get yourself upset. 33 A. I'm not working myself up, it's just that - 34 Q. I'm trying to - 35 A. I am back with those two wonderful women, you know. 36 Q. I'm just trying to clarify things for my own mind, you 37 understand, so that I don't misunderstand. 38 A. If I had only gone down there. You know, the regret of 382 CJ 8EPP E.M. FISHER XN (PRIVATE) (SUPPRESSION ORDER LIFTED 22.8.95) 1 it is so painful to me. 2 Q. Is this the situation: That if something is public 3 knowledge, I suppose that can scarcely be called a 4 secret to that extent. 5 A. That is true. You see, she referred to me, she talked 6 to me about aspects which are not in the notebook 7 because I didn't record it. Lines 8 - 22 SUPPRESSED 23 Q. My concern is, of course, to try and distinguish, but 24 perhaps you might think about that over the luncheon 25 adjournment in any case. 26 A. To distinguish? 27 Q. To distinguish what is the secret part of it from the 28 part that is in the public arena, as it were, so that I 29 can ensure that - 30 A. Well, you understand the secret part of it was not the 31 specific words that I was told, but the ceremonial - 383 CJ 8EPP E.M. FISHER XN (PRIVATE) (SUPPRESSION ORDER LIFTED 22.8.95) 1 Lines 1 - 6 SUPPRESSED 7 Q. Well, we will take the luncheon adjournment now. I've 8 had to clarify in my mind which parts are absolutely, 9 you would say, secret and unknown and which parts are in 10 the public arena, as it were. 11 A. 15 MRS SHAW: Could I raise one matter? I wonder 16 whether or not, bearing in mind that we need an 17 adjournment after the evidence taken by Miss Simpson in 18 any event, whether it would be worthwhile sitting to 19 finish this part of the evidence - I don't know how long 20 it will take - and then adjourn? 21 COMSR: I think you might prefer that in any 22 case, so that we get to the end of this part of it and 23 then take a luncheon break. 24 Lines 24 - 34 SUPPRESSED 34 Q. Pages 384 - 386 Closed 387 RF 8FPP E.M. FISHER XN (PRIVATE) (SUPPRESSION ORDER LIFTED 22.8.95) 1 Lines 1 - 33 Suppressed COMSR 34 Q.