Interview with James Matthews http://www.aluka.org/action/showMetadata?doi=10.5555/AL.SFF.DOCUMENT.MAGAZP1B1004 Use of the Aluka digital library is subject to Aluka’s Terms and Conditions, available at http://www.aluka.org/page/about/termsConditions.jsp. By using Aluka, you agree that you have read and will abide by the Terms and Conditions. Among other things, the Terms and Conditions provide that the content in the Aluka digital library is only for personal, non-commercial use by authorized users of Aluka in connection with research, scholarship, and education. The content in the Aluka digital library is subject to copyright, with the exception of certain governmental works and very old materials that may be in the public domain under applicable law. Permission must be sought from Aluka and/or the applicable copyright holder in connection with any duplication or distribution of these materials where required by applicable law. Aluka is a not-for-profit initiative dedicated to creating and preserving a digital archive of materials about and from the developing world. For more information about Aluka, please see http://www.aluka.org Interview with James Matthews Author/Creator Magaziner, Daniel (Interviewer); Matthews, James (Interviewee) Date 2006-05-23 Resource type Interviews Language English Subject Coverage (spatial) South Africa Coverage (temporal) 1950-2000 Source Private Collection Description Discussed Matthews poetry during the 1970s, as well as the evolving role of art and poetry in post-apartheid South Africa. Considered the impact of poetry and other art forms during the struggle period, as well as his connections with activists associated with the Black Consciousness movement. Discussed Coloured identity as it related to Black Consciousness. Format extent 14 pages (length/size) http://www.aluka.org/action/showMetadata?doi=10.5555/AL.SFF.DOCUMENT.MAGAZP1B1004 http://www.aluka.org James Matthews 5/23/06 District 6 Museum, Cape Town, SA A: In one of my books, I write that I wish I could write a poem about a bird, dawn or a bee. Then I look at the people, maimed shackled, jailed, I shan’t write a poem about a bird, a bee or dawn. Q: Let’s explore that. Is there something wrong about writing a truly aesthetic poem in a situation of political responsibility? A: For me at that stage, it’s a luxury that I refuse to accept. I see myself not as a poet who, I’m going to be very harsh, who writes art for art’s sake. Too many violent things happening to people, that the horrors of apartheid and I indulge in writing a poem, a pastoral poem … no. I rejected the whole concept, in fact, I rejected the whole concept of being a poet. Q: How did you see yourself then? A: What I write expresses a feeling. I express the suffering of people and also the hatred of people towards a racial regime. I need to report the outrage, the anger, the willingness to fight – if not with physical things, then the poet must use his words. That’s how I see myself and I still see myself. I have just written a 2000 word piece for a book that’s coming out probably 6 months and I made it clear with lost lines that as long as people are suffering, and as long as certain politicians are bloated from their arrogance, feeding on the suffering of people, I shall then and still be a dissident poet. Q: During the seventies, though, at the same time that you have this dissident poetry, let us say, you also have the rise of what are called the “Soweto poets” who deal with politics – people like Mtshali and Serote and others … A: Can I switch this off for a moment? [microphone switched off while he critiques a number of well known poets from the 1970s] Q: When you say non militant poets, what do you mean? A: During the period that you’ve mentioned, I found poets little better than poetry, but for me it wasn’t the poetry that was needed. They are fine poets – some of them are lyrical in their expression – but certainly they are not saying what I feel strongly that people want to hear. Some of these poets were very much taken up by the pseudo-liberal whites – it suited their purpose to have a black poet and here was a black poet. But … and also, those books were bought mainly by your liberal … pseudo liberal whites, not the blacks in townships. When I brought out “Cry Rage” it was a watershed, it showed where black poets should be going and how – not necessarily my words, but the direction they should be going – that was important. Q: To kind of ask about the production of “Cry Rage,” and you are saying it was a watershed. Why did you choose to write the poems in English? A: Rather odd, since English is the language that I write in and I speak. Q: But you said you were interested in a non-pseudo liberal white audience; English poetry, in SA, was largely the area of English pseudo-liberal whites. A: Yeah, but I think you’ve got it wrong in that sense. A vast amount of, to use the term ‘Coloureds,’ speak English. English is their language – it’s not the reserve of the white. I know for people from outside, always for them they find it difficult like the question you ask. But what did you expect a guy like me to write? Which language? Q: I’m asking not because of the language I expect you to write, but in a lot of the BC cultural production, things like, let’s say, Cry Rage, popular theatre, protest theatre, Shanti and various other plays – they’re all in English. I find that interesting because I expected that if you wanted to communicate with people a lot of people don’t speak English. A: You’ll be surprised again by virtue of how you want to get about. If you want to get a job you can’t go and speak Xhosa, you must communicate in English and that goes for your Zulus. Who owns the areas of production? Mainly whites. To illustrate the language, I’ll use an analogy – in Namaqualand there are older people who speak Nama and the younger people refuse to get into the language because they are saying the same thing that I said – how do I go to an employer and speak Nama? It’s a matter of economics. Q: Under apartheid, then do you think that you and others chose English rather than Afrikaans? A: Let’s get back to the Soweto Uprising. The Soweto Uprising, apart from the other ills, was mainly caused by apartheid [sic] being taught and enforced as the main language. When you use English as the medium, there are more publishing houses dealing in English books rather than Afrikaans and few Afrikaans publishers would publish what we write. The fact that I had to publish myself was that the mainstream English publishers won’t use my stuff. Q: What did you, when you were writing this dissident poetry, as you call it, what did you think it would achieve? A: Firstly, to give expression to things that a lot of us are fearful of saying out loud. Doing that, I would hope that more people would unite themselves in what we are, saying unite themselves – it doesn’t matter what your personal politics might be. At that period, ANC was not the big thing amongst people, particularly amongst the youth; AZAPO, BC was the in thing. But the poetry that I write, I hope it to be a unification of different beliefs. Like for instance, when the Soweto revolution erupted, firstly ANC tried to get on the bandwagon by trying to state that they were indirectly responsible; they were not. It was the work of dissident BC poets. What we achieved, I can accept they term it the Soweto revolution, but it was a revolution that was spread all over South Africa, but our poetry united the Zulu youth, young boys, girls, with Indians or a Coloured counterpart. Their parents weren’t aware of what was happening, with the eruption, even the parents were shocked to see how united these kids were. These kids were attending meetings in schools, church halls – this was the big thing. Q: When you were writing and you said you wanted to express the unity in this poetry, during this period, the term that was often used was “conscientize,” that you wanted to conscientize people. I’ve often wondered, with culture, in terms of – explain to me the connection between someone reading a poem and an event like an uprising where people are resisting? How in your mind, as a poet, as a creator of this voice, did you see that connection? A: There’s no problem to it at all. Again I must, I can understand you seeing it from the outside, but from the inside, some of us weren’t interested in the whole poetry bag – we were just writing things – others labeled it poetry – stupid observers said “protest poetry,” which is such a bullshit term. We’re not protest poets, we’re dissident poets. There’s a vast difference. We are angry, we are not protesting against what was happening, we’re fighting against what’s happening. That’s why I constantly use the term I’m a dissident poet, not a protest poet. The whole concept is … it’s like, let’s go back to your Baptist church, where they’re saying the closeness between what they’re singing and the feeling of the people.