Transcript: Fault Lines Episode 63 Interview with Senator Bob Corker Les Munson Appreciate that. So, you've, as we were just talking before the podcast, were on a sabbatical from public life for the last couple years. What are your thoughts about how things have gone in Washington while you were gone? Senator Corker Well, it's headed in the same direction it was when I left, and that is on a little bit of a downward situation. But look, I'm hopeful that it's going to move into a little different direction. I've liked a lot of the policies that I've seen put in place. I mean, I'll be the first to say that, but the whole public discourse just continued to go in a direction that I thought was sad for our country. And, certainly, what happened on January 6, who would have ever thought? And what a sad day for us and what it represented and be glad to talk about that more if you want to. Les Munson Yeah, it's hard for, I think, for any of us who worked in the capital not to be profoundly affected by what we saw on the 6th. I was pretty, I guess, traumatized is the right word. We'd very much love to hear kind of how you reacted personally to what you saw. Senator Corker Yeah. Well, first of all, it's interesting. Les, I know you're still there in town, even though you're not right in the capital. But you get away from it, which is a great thing to do, for an extended period of time, and you see this untruth thing. I have these conversations a lot. There's still a lot of people that want to talk about it. And if you set aside whether you felt like the election was fair or not, which still is a debate for some people, not for me. I quickly congratulated President Elect Biden and wished him well in the service. But, if you set that whole thing aside - people think, well the voting was changed; they were mailing. Okay, well set that aside. For the President of the United States to cause hardworking Americans to believe that Congress can overturn an election or that Vice President Pence could overturn election, and people believe it, and him lead them to the place that they were led on January 6th, just speaks to the frailty of our democracy. I mean, who would have ever thought that a sitting president would incite people? I know people think there were different levels of that, but incite people to come and break into the Capitol to try to overturn election. You and I've traveled the world together, and that happens in places that we went to - I mean in Banana Republics and maybe a place like Venezuela or whatever but not in the United States. And I think it's a wakeup call for all of us to realize that what you say is so important that if you have - the other thing that's happened, Les. I was just on a long phone call. Think about where we are - I know you've been a lifelong Republican, and I've been a lifelong Republican. And we used to talk about policies, right, like fiscal control, and America's role in the world and alliances and trade and immigration - that ended with President Trump coming in. It was all about being 100% with President Trump for many people, obviously not me and not you. But think about how dangerous that is. That all of a sudden. And if you talk to these people who run for election, they'll tell you that all people ask about is not about those policies - matter of fact they don't get any questions about policies. They get asked, in a primary on the Republican side, they get asked one thing: are you with Trump? And so, think about the danger of that. We respected President Reagan. We respected the Office of Presidency under President Reagan, under President Bush ’41, under President Bush ‘43. And certainly, respected the Office of President under President Trump, but we didn't have this fealty to them where you couldn't show any daylight on any policy or somehow or another. So, I just think that's been a big wakeup call I hope that will stay with us for a long time. And people realize it's the policies, not the person. We should show respect. But we got into a very dangerous place as a country. Les Munson How do you think the Republican party gets back to that point where it's the policy that we're talking about and not the personality? And where these things that we care about, American leadership in the world and that kind of thing, is more important than, a profane name calling tweet from someone that we think is fighting for us. How do we get back to that those Reagan years or the Bush years? Or the next evolution of them? Is that even possible? Senator Corker Yeah, I think that it is. But the words you just used I think are choice, and that is “fighting for you,” right? I mean, that's what all of that behavior indicated to people - was that he was the only one that was truly fighting for them. But I think that it’s not going to change probably by 2022 because there are going to be congressional races, and people are going to be worried about primaries. As you know, most of the country now when they run, they don't worry about the general election. They worry about the primary. So, it'll be really incumbent upon the standard bearer: the person who ends up being nominated in 2024. Hopefully, never again, will we see President Trump in that position. At least that's my position. I'm not trying to pass that on to you. So, it's unlikely that we're going to have a personality that's like that. And let's face it - one thing I have to say about him: he had a grip on the Republican party and on people and on their psyche that we haven't had a standard bearer half. So that's not going to happen again. I can't imagine there's anybody who's thinking about running that's going to have that ability to just cause people to be gripped to them. And so, it'll have to be more about policies, won't it? It'll have to be about that. And I think by 2024 it's likely we get back to that place. Now, we still have shunned issues like fiscal concerns. You saw Mitch Daniels op-ed yesterday I'm sure. Where he's saying, hey, a good friend of mine, I'm folding the cards; I mean those days are over. Apparently, nobody cares anymore. So, we're still going to have some big issues to deal with it that are not popular today because they cause us to have to make tough decisions. And I think there’ll be a return to some of those at least by 2024. - 2 - Les Munson So, in the next few days, the Senate is going to have an impeachment trial for the former president. How do you think the Senate should handle that? Senator Corker Well, hopefully way more soberly than the house did. My view of these things is more mid- to long- term. And I've said it publicly before, but I was concerned in the first place with the way the impeachment came off the Senate. I mean off the House floor with no hearings, obviously a moment of high passion. I thought it denigrated the process. An impeachment trial is a big deal. It’s one of the most serious things, as you know, other than declaring war that Congress does. So, people say, well, shouldn't they be punished? My worry was that as much as people may have been pulled off of Trump by virtue of his conduct, especially after the election. Well, Les, some people fell off, thankfully, and hopefully more will. But who do they like less than any human being in the world if they're Republicans? With all respect, to have Speaker Pelosi be the face of trying to undo him. I'm sorry, I'm just talking not about constitutional issues. It just seemed to me that it was going to strengthen his hand to a degree. And to the extent that the Senate impeachment, which it feels like may not get to 67 votes, that's just strengthened his hand. I do think Republicans are rightly concerned about constitutional issues. I don't know the constitutionality of trying a former president. I really don't. I know they've had this Jonathan Turley in talking with them. And Les, the big debates in the senate take place at lunch, not on the Senate floor. So if it does occur (I know that you know, a couple senators are working on a censure instead). If it does occur, I hope that it will be done in a sober manner. And really, senators shouldn't be saying how they're going to vote. I mean, as you know, they're jurist. And so they should listen to the evidence and invoke their conscious. Again, if it occurs, and we'll see if it does.