Special Section on Teaching Indic Traditions ROBERT THURMAN an EAA interview Editor’s Introduction Robert A. F. Thurman has become one of America’s leading voices for the teachings of Buddhism, making these teachings more meaningful to Americans in a manner unequaled by any other Westerner. Time magazine chose him as one of its 25 most influential Americans in 1997, and described him as a “larger than life scholar-activist destined to convey Lucien: Would you please inform our the dharma, the precious teaching of Siddartha, from Asia to America.” The readers a bit about your early life and how New York Times recently said Thurman “is considered the leading American you became interested in Indo-Tibetan Buddhism? expert on Tibetan Buddhism.” His unique take on the relevance of Buddhism to Robert Thurman: I was raised at a American culture and politics, as well as his wit and creativity in weaving Presbyterian Church, the Brick Church in New York, but never had faith in a creator ancient Buddhist wisdom and popular Western ideals, make his knowledge god—disagreeing with parents and pas- entertaining, useful and informative. tors. I did like Jesus and his teachings. I Thurman’s most recent book, Inner Revolution: Life, Liberty and the loved philosophy and romantic novels, read a lot in school, and wanted to be a Pursuit of Real Happiness (Riverhead Books, 1999), was chosen by Publisher’s novelist, poet, and playwright. I learned Weekly as one of the best books of 1998. Thurman has often been placed front languages easily and at age fifteen ran away to travel. I married early and had a and center with the news media, and is regularly interviewed by newspapers and child. At twenty years of age, I lost an eye magazines throughout the world. in a garage accident, and immediately Thurman’s work and insights are grounded in more than 35 years of decided to renounce my ordinary life and go to India and seek enlightenment from serious academic scholarship. He has B.A., A.M. and Ph.D. degrees from the yoga or Buddhist traditions, and Harvard and studied in Tibetan Buddhist monasteries in India and the United Sufism. I encountered His Holiness the Dalai Lama and an elder Mongolian lama, States. In 1962, he was the first American to be ordained as a Tibetan Buddhist Venerable Geshe Wangyal, and began to monk, but gave up his robes after several years feeling he could be most effective study Buddhism. I liked it for philosophi- in the American university system. He is a popular professor in the Religion cal more than religious reasons, the practi- cality of the four noble truths and the logi- Department of Columbia University where he holds the Jey Tsong Khapa chair cal compellingness of the critical insight in Indo-Tibetan Studies. into selflessness and voidness and compas- sion. I have been studying it ever since, Eleven years ago, Thurman co-founded Tibet House New York, a serious with ever-increasing pleasure and appreci- nonprofit dedicated to the preservation of Tibetan culture on behalf of His ation. Holiness the Dalai Lama, who calls Thurman “an old friend.” Thurman serves Lucien: Since you have both academic as president of Tibet House, which attracts visitors from around the world. and practitioner-oriented training, how do We are pleased to publish this EAA interview with America’s most you think your background impacts the way you approach Indo-Tibetan Buddhism distinguished popularizer of Indo-Tibetan Buddhism. We would like to thank and the way practitioners, academics, and Tom Yarnell for his assistance in the procurement of this interview. students approach you? 32 EDUCATION ABOUT ASIA Volume 6, Number 3 Winter 2001 Western Europe, a relatively backward area until the past 500 years or so, began its renaissance when it discovered the ancient humanism and natural sciences of the Robert Thurman: Fortunately, the Greeks. This renaissance nation of God, and such foreign Buddhists way I understand Buddhism, it requires as the Dalai Lama as holy persons, while clear thinking and critical scrutiny, not may perhaps reach feeling somewhat uncomfortable with the dogmatic adherence or blind faith. There- completion when our Buddhist critique of the caste system, fore, it is an educational tradition more insistence on nonviolence and anti- than a religious one. So there is very little current discovery of the militarism, focus on asceticism, non- conflict for me in teaching about Bud- acceptance of a creator god, and so forth. dhism as an academic subject. I do so in a “inner sciences” of the religion department, due to the categories Indians helps us overcome Lucien: Probably the two most well- of American academia, but would just as known Buddhist sects in the West are now soon do so in a department of philosophy, the philosophical and Zen and Indo-Tibetan Buddhism. What or psychology. Students read Plato in core major similarities and differences in these curriculum courses, and no one thinks they scientific materialism that two sects do you think it is particularly are practicing Greek religion, worshipping now holds us back. important for high school and university Apollo or consulting the Delphic oracle. instructors to understand? So the great thinkers of the Buddhist tradi- Robert Thurman: I don’t think “sect” tion contribute to our understanding of discovered the ancient humanism and nat- accurately describes almost any Buddhist reality, the human condition, ethics, psy- ural sciences of the Greeks. This renais- movement, since the word implies that its chology, whatever. They, along with sance may perhaps reach completion when adherents think that other Buddhists out- Hindu, Confucian, Muslim, and Taoist our current discovery of the “inner sci- side their group are not followers of the writers, should be part of our general liberal ences” of the Indians helps us overcome same religion or philosophy. All Buddhist arts and sciences curriculum, just like the philosophical and scientific material- schools, orders, or movements follow the Greeks, Hebrews, Romans, and other ism that now holds us back. Shakyamuni Buddha in his central teaching European thinkers. of selflessness and compassion, take refuge Lucien: In what ways do you think Bud- in the Three Jewels of Buddha, Dharma, Lucien: What, in your opinion, is signifi- dhism influences contemporary India? and Sangha, and seek liberation from suf- cant about the fact that Buddhism’s ori- Robert Thurman: Buddhism’s cur- fering in Nirvana by following the eight- gins were in India? rent influence in India is mainly through fold noble path. Their differences lie in Robert Thurman: India was said by its embeddedness in Hinduism. One thou- some details of their philosophical theories, Bertrand Russell to have been the supreme sand years ago the Iranian and Turkish ritual practices, and favorite scriptures. Zen culture for philosophizing about the human invasions of India began to obliterate the Buddhism of Japan and its parent, Ch’an being, reality and psyche; the Greeks were network of Buddhist monastic universities Buddhism of China, have many points of good on nature, and the Chinese on social that served as institutional anchor of Bud- similarity with some aspects of Tibetan thought. Due to the greater population, dhism within the culture. However, after Buddhism; mainly, (1) a strong emphasis wealth, and tolerance of the Indian subcon- 1,500 years of being closely integrated on critical wisdom as the vehicle of libera- tinent’s societies and rulers, Toynbee con- with the Vedic Hindu traditions, Bud- tion from ignorance and suffering; (2) a siders that Shakyamuni Buddha was the dhism had imparted its metaphysics of focus on asceticism in practice of long con- most successful of the “Axial Age” (ca. non-dualism, its psychology of liberative templative retreats; and (3) a tradition of sixth through fifth centuries B.C.E.) teachers contemplation, its educational epistemol- compassionate social service on the part of of the whole Eurasian oikumene, meaning ogy that privileges experience over dog- those considered to have attained high real- the inhabited world as known to those in matic theory, and its ethical nonviolence ization. Both have a language about sudden Europe and Asia. Western Europe, a rela- related to the emphasis on vegetarianism. breakthroughs on the path, and both teach tively backward area until the past 500 Today, Indians are ambivalent about arduous, lifelong practices which involve years or so, began its renaissance when it Buddhism, respecting Buddha as an incar- systematic, gradual development. 33 Unfortunately, our own industrial and militaristic hubris Lucien: The current Dalai Lama is, in my ness the Dalai Lama, especially The Art of opinion, one of the important reasons that and our commercial and Happiness, Ethics for the New Millennium, Indo-Tibetan Buddhism has such a high and his personal autobiography. profile in the West. I know that the two of strategic interest in China you have a long-time friendship. Would has so far kept us Lucien: By most accounts Buddhism has you inform our readers about aspects of significantly increased in popularity in the that relationship? from giving the saving of U.S. over the past decade or so. Why do Robert Thurman: The Dalai Lama is, you think that many Americans are choos- of course, a great exemplar of the benefits Tibet a sufficient priority, ing to embrace this belief system at one of practicing Tibetan Buddhism. He is a leaving the communist level or the other? humble Buddhist monk of great erudition, Robert