Day 22 Jermaine Baker Inquiry- Main Hearings 21 July 2021 1 Wednesday, 21 July 2021 1 operations, specialist armed operations. 2 (10.00 am) 2 Q. Is it right now that in your role as a commander you 3 THE CHAIRMAN: Good morning, everyone. 3 don't have responsibility for SCO19? 4 MR MOSS: Good morning, sir, could the witness please be 4 A. Correct. 5 sworn. 5 Q. Your first involvement with Operation Ankaa, with W80, 6 MR SIMON DOBINSON (sworn) 6 was I think on Sunday, 13 December 2015? 7 Questions from MR MOSS 7 A. That's correct. 8 MR MOSS: Can you please state your name and rank? 8 Q. You received a telephone call I think from Chief 9 A. My name is Simon Dobinson and I am a commander in the 9 Superintendent Gallagher? 10 Metropolitan Police. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Commander, is it right that in December 2015 you were 11 Q. You understood that Chief Superintendent Gallagher was 12 a superintendent? 12 informing you of a decision that had been taken by DAC 13 A. That's correct. 13 Fiona Taylor; is that right? 14 Q. When you were a superintendent, and also when you wrote 14 A. Yes. 15 your statement, I think, in May 2016, you were the 15 Q. Is it right that that was a decision taken in response 16 superintendent in charge of specialist operations in 16 to a request from the IPCC? 17 SCO19? 17 A. Yes. 18 A. That's correct. 18 Q. What was the request and what was the decision? 19 Q. Is it right now that you also have a role in specialist 19 A. So the request was to attend a location where W80 would 20 operations, but they are different specialist 20 be so I could serve suspension papers on him. 21 operations? 21 Q. What did you do, having received that telephone call 22 A. Yes, I work in a business group called specialist 22 from Chief Superintendent Gallagher? 23 operations, whereas at the time in 2015 I was working in 23 A. So I left my home and I attended Leman Street, which is 24 SCO19, which now is in Met operations and I had 24 a main location, and I expected to receive paperwork 25 responsibility for specialist function, specialist 25 that I could then use to then inform the officer and Page 1 Page 2 1 suspend him. 1 A. Yes, I did know the officer. 2 Q. Did you get to Leman Street at 8.00 or 8.30 in the 2 Q. In what capacity? 3 evening of Sunday the 13th? 3 A. So I had known the officer since 2002, when I had served 4 A. Yes. 4 with him when I was an ARV sergeant and he was an ARV 5 Q. Did you receive any paperwork when you arrived? 5 PC. He was on my team. I didn't directly supervise 6 A. No. No, I didn't. 6 him, I worked at the north base, he operated from the 7 Q. What did you think that paperwork would contain? 7 south base, but from time to time during operations we 8 A. So I expected that paperwork to contain the rationale 8 would come across each other and so I knew him. 9 for the suspension, which I would then have to serve on 9 I wouldn't say I was a close associate with him, but 10 the officer in order to comply with the process. 10 I knew him during a two-year period that we worked on 11 Q. Did you independently know the rationale for the 11 the same team, with about 40 to 50 people on the team. 12 suspension? 12 Q. At that time did you know him socially as well as in 13 A. No. 13 that capacity? 14 Q. Why not? 14 A. No. 15 A. So I would have received an email, so I did have 15 Q. Did you continue to know him after 2002 until 2015? 16 an email outlining what the matter was about, but 16 A. Only at a period of time when I was appointed back into 17 I didn't have the formal wording, I didn't have the 17 SCO19 in 2011, 2012, and again I knew him when I came 18 correct paperwork, to be able to serve on that officer 18 across him but I didn't work directly with him. 19 as a requirement of the suspension process. 19 Q. So you knew him by name? 20 THE CHAIRMAN: A bit of a waste of time as far as you were 20 A. Yes, by name and sight and to be able to say hello to 21 concerned, wasn't it? 21 and to just converse with him. 22 A. I was quite surprised that that was not available to me, 22 Q. But did you talk outside of work? 23 yes. 23 A. No. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. 24 Q. Prior to the telephone call on 13 December, what did you 25 MR MOSS: Did you have any previous knowledge of W80? 25 know about the events on 11 December? Page 3 Page 4 1 (Pages 1 to 4) Epiq Europe Ltd www.epiqglobal.com Lower Ground, 20 Furnival Street (+44)207 4041400 [email protected] London, EC4A 1JS Day 22 Jermaine Baker Inquiry- Main Hearings 21 July 2021 1 A. About the operation? 1 Q. What were the options? 2 Q. Yes. 2 A. At one point, DCI Lilburn suggested that we start 3 A. So I knew nothing about the operation, I was aware from 3 creating a template using the suspension papers that we 4 having senior responsibility for the CTSFO teams that 4 would do for anyone normally and start writing out the 5 they had operations, a brief awareness of how many teams 5 regulation notice. And then during that conversation 6 were deployed on certain days, but I had no day-to-day 6 she stated clearly to me that it was an IPCC-led 7 knowledge of the operations or the detail as to what 7 investigation, they need to provide that rationale and 8 their tasks were or what the investigations were 8 that neither she nor I could or should write that 9 relating to. 9 rationale down and therefore we had to wait for that 10 Q. Before you received that telephone call on the 13th, had 10 rationale and the paperwork to come through from the 11 you received any prior warning that W80 was likely to be 11 IPCC. 12 suspended? 12 Q. Whose fault -- if that is not too loaded a word -- did 13 A. No. 13 you understand that to be that there were not suspension 14 Q. Did you expect that W80 was likely to be suspended from 14 papers ready? 15 what you independently knew? 15 A. So I felt that was the absolute responsibility of the 16 A. No. 16 IPCC. 17 Q. So you turn up at Leman Street, 8.00 or 8.30 in the 17 THE CHAIRMAN: Which is why you declined to create the 18 evening on Sunday the 13th, you are expecting there to 18 paperwork through the Met? 19 be paperwork and there isn't paperwork. What did you 19 A. Yes. 20 then decide to do? 20 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. 21 A. So I contacted the on-call director of professional 21 MR MOSS: Do you know if Detective Chief Inspector Lilburn 22 standards, which is DCI Katy Lilburn to seek a view as 22 shared the view that it was the fault of the IPCC? 23 to what to do next and eventually I got a phone call 23 A. Yes. 24 back from her and I started to have a conversation 24 Q. You do know and she did share that view? 25 around what our options were. 25 A. Yes, with me on the phone. Page 5 Page 6 1 Q. Notwithstanding the absence of paperwork, did you reach 1 to see him to carry out the suspension notice, and 2 a view as to what you should do in respect of welfare of 2 I believe I did speak to him. Yes, I did, I did speak 3 W80? 3 to him prior to knowing that I would not be able to 4 A. So ahead of the conversation with DCI Lilburn, the 4 carry out the suspension notice. 5 important context here is around the time of day, so it 5 Q. You spoke to him thinking that you would carry out the 6 was -- I know in my statement I have talked about 6 suspension? 7 contacting W80 at 2109 hours. The reality is that if 7 A. Yes. 8 I am going to attend his home address or to a location, 8 Q. I think before you spoke to W80, but after you spoke to 9 agreeable to both of us where I could meet him and 9 DCI Lilburn, you had a telephone call with somebody 10 provide suspension notices, I had to first of all make 10 else, do you remember that? A police sergeant? 11 sure he was available, because at that point he 11 A. Are you referring to Mick Burke? 12 obviously had no idea as to what was happening and 12 Q. Yes. 13 considering it was 9.00 in the evening, I was concerned 13 A.