Page 1 1 UNITED STATES SENATE COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS COMMITTEE ON FINANCE - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x INTERVIEW OF: : CATHERINE ANN NOVELLI : : - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x Room SD-342 and via Webex Dirksen Senate Office Building Washington, D.C. Tuesday, August 18, 2020 9:42 a.m. INTERVIEW OF CATHERINE ANN NOVELLI Page 2 2 APPEARANCES: For the Witness: STUART G. NASH, ESQ. CHRISTOPHER J. ARMSTRONG, ESQ. Holland & Knight 800 17th Street, N.W., Suite 1100 Washington, D.C. 20006 For Senator Johnson: JOSEPH C. FOLIO, III, Chief Counsel, HSGAC SCOTT WITTMANN, Senior Professional Staff Member, HSGAC BRIAN DOWNEY, Senior Investigator, HSGAC LYDIA WESTLAKE, Senior Advisor, HSGAC SARAH SMERLING, Professional Staff Member, HSGAC WILLIAM SACRIPANTI, Professional Staff Member, HSGAC For Senator Grassley: JOSHUA FLYNN-BROWN, Deputy Chief Investigative Counsel, Finance Committee QUINTON BRADY, Investigative Counsel, Finance Committee Page 3 3 APPEARANCES: (Continued): For Senator Peters: ZACHARY SCHRAM, Minority Chief Counsel, HSGAC ALAN KAHN, Minority Chief Investigative Counsel, HSGAC SOUMYALATHA DAYANANDA, Minority Senior Investigative Counsel, HSGAC VALERIE SHEN, Investigative Counsel, HSGAC For Senator Wyden: DAVID BERICK, Minority Chief Investigator, Finance Committee DAN GOSHORN, Minority Senior Counsel, Finance Committee JOSH HEATH, Minority Investigator, Finance Committee For the Department of State: WILLIAM K. KILLION Bureau of Legislative Affairs KENNETH A. THOMAS Office of the Legal Advisor Page 4 4 MAJORITY EXHIBITS MARKED 1) Washington Examiner article, 4/25/14 25 2) Email, Tramontano to Novelli, 05/16/14 73 3) Email, Jenkins to Duncan and Heidt, 04/17/14 75 4) Email, Malik to Tramontano, 08/20/14 79 5) Email, Redacted to Duncan, Heidt, Sabeen, 11/17/14 83 6) Email, Novelli to Redacted, 10/21/15 85 7) Email from Redacted to Brink, 10/28/15 88 8) Email from E Duty Secretary to Duncan and Dodman, 10/29/15 89 9) Email from Painter to Novelli and Tramontano, 11/6/15 110 10) Email from Redacted to Redacted, Duncan, and Dodman 02/18/16 111 11) Email, Redacted to Redacted, 02/17/16 118 12) Email, Redacted to Redacted, 02/29/16 128 13) Email, Redacted to Bhardwaj, Dodman, Duncan, Haverkamp and other Redacted, 02/29/16 131 14) Email, Redacted to Bhardwaj, Dodman, Duncan, Haverkamp and other Redacted, 09/28/16 148 15) Email, Redacted to Bhardwaj, Dodman, Duncan, Haverkamp and other Redacted, 10/12/16 149 16) Email, Novelli to Redacted and Duncan, 10/24/16 150 17) Email, Nuland to Pyatt, 03/30/16 154 18) Email, Tramontano to Novelli, 10/24/16 159 Page 5 5 EXHIBITS (Continued) MARKED 19) Email, Tramontano to Novelli, 11/07/16 162 20) Email, Tramontano to Novelli, 12/02/19 164 21) Email, Novelli to Tramontano, 12/03/19 164 Page 6 6 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 MR. FOLIO: Good morning, everyone. This morning we 3 are here for a transcribed interview of Ms. Catherine 4 Novelli that's being conducted by the Senate Committee on 5 Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs and the Senate 6 Committee on Finance. 7 This interview was requested by Chairman Ron Johnson 8 and Chairman Charles Grassley as part of the Committees' 9 investigation of whether there were any actual or apparent 10 conflicts of interest or any other wrongdoing with regard to 11 the Obama administration's Ukraine policy or Burisma 12 Holdings, as well as related matters. 13 On December 18th, Chairmen Grassley and Johnson 14 requested Ms. Novelli's appearance for a voluntary 15 transcribed interview and certain categories of documents. 16 In response, her counsel has notified us that there were 17 approximately a dozen documents through a spread sheet. We 18 have requested production of certain documents, which they 19 provided to us on Thursday. 20 Ms. Novelli, can you please state your full name for 21 the record? 22 MS. NOVELLI: Catherine Ann Novelli. 23 MR. FOLIO: Thank you. My name is Joseph Folio. I'm 24 the Chief Counsel for the Homeland Security and Governmental 25 Affairs Committee. I'm going to, in order, ask everyone Page 7 7 1 else that's on the line to introduce themselves. I'm going 2 to start by introducing the folks that are in the room with 3 me. We're in the Committee hearing room. 4 In the hearing room for Chairman Johnson's staff, I'm 5 joined by Scott Wittmann, Brian Downey, Will Sacripanti, and 6 Sarah Smerling. 7 I'm going to ask Chairman Grassley's staff to introduce 8 themselves next. 9 MR. FLYNN-BROWN: Good morning, Ms. Novelli. My name's 10 Josh Flynn-Brown. I'm Deputy Chief Investigative Counsel 11 for Chairman Grassley. Today I'm joined by my colleague 12 Quinton Brady. 13 MR. FOLIO: And now I'm going to ask the staff from 14 Ranking Member Peters' office to identify themselves for the 15 record, please. 16 MR. SCHRAM: Good morning. This is Zack Schram, Chief 17 Counsel for Ranking Member Peters. Ms. Novelli, the 18 minority's participation today is not an endorsement of the 19 investigation. As the Ranking Members have said publicly, 20 we believe this investigation advances a Russian 21 disinformation campaign and is intended to interfere in our 22 2020 Presidential election. 23 Chairman Johnson has repeatedly admitted that this 24 investigation is targeted at influencing voters and hurting 25 Vice President Biden's Presidential candidacy. In March Page 8 8 1 2020, hours after Joe Biden became the top Democratic 2 contender, Chairman Johnson stated, "And if I were a 3 Democrat primary voter, I'd want these questions 4 satisfactorily answered before I cast my final vote." 5 Last week, in describing the investigation, Chairman 6 Johnson said, "I would think it would certainly help Donald 7 Trump win reelection and certainly be pretty good, I would 8 say, evidence about not voting for Vice President Biden." 9 We are conducting this interview remotely because we 10 are in the midst of a pandemic that has created an 11 extraordinary public health crisis in the United States. 12 The Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee has 13 jurisdiction over pandemic preparedness and response, and 14 yet this Committee has now spent more time on the record 15 interviewing witnesses in this investigation than it has 16 spent on all of its COVID hearings combined. 17 Ranking Member Peters believes that this investigation 18 is a misuse of Committee resources and does not advance the 19 health, safety, or economic security of Americans consistent 20 with our Committee's mission. We have a right and 21 responsibility to be here, and we will do our best to ensure 22 that you are treated fairly, the record is accurate and 23 complete, and that the national security interest of the 24 United States is protected. 25 I am joined by my colleagues Alan Kahn, Soumya Page 9 9 1 Dayananda, and Valerie Shen. 2 MR. FOLIO: Ranking Member Wyden's staff, please 3 introduce yourselves for the record. 4 MR. BERICK: Dave Berick. I'm the Chief Investigation 5 for the Democratic staff on the Senate Finance Committee. I 6 am joined by Dan Goshorn and Josh Heath, who are 7 investigators on the Committee staff. 8 I'm going to associate the minority Finance views with 9 those of Mr. Schram and Ranking Member Peters' staff. I 10 just would put in two data points which I'm going to 11 introduce in every subsequent interview. We are now 77 days 12 from the November 3rd election, and we have had 167,000 13 deaths from COVID during the pendency of this investigation. 14 Dan? 15 MR. GOSHORN: Nothing further. 16 MR. FOLIO: I think we're making a habit of this, but 17 just to respond briefly to the Ranking Member's staff, 18 Chairman Johnson and the Committee have held a number of 19 hearings on the COVID pandemic, and we continue to do work. 20 The Committee has multiple tasks and we have wide 21 responsibilities. One of them is Senate oversight. The 22 core responsibility of the Committee is investigating 23 conflicts of interest or apparent conflicts of interest. 24 That's what we are doing and we will continue to do. It 25 doesn't mean we're not doing [inaudible.] Page 10 10 1 Is someone from the State Department on the line? And 2 if so, can you please introduce yourself for the record? 3 [No response.] 4 MR. FOLIO: So Will Sacripanti tells me that someone 5 from the State Department has dialed in and understands that 6 Bill Killion is joining us. 7 MR. KILLION: Sorry. Can you hear me now? 8 MR. FOLIO: Yes. 9 MR. KILLION: Oh, sorry. I spoke and maybe I wasn't 10 unmuted. Yeah, Bill Killion with State Leg. Affairs is 11 here. 12 MR. FOLIO: Thank, Bill. 13 Ms. Novelli, I will now explain how the interview will 14 proceed. The Federal Rules of Civil Procedure do not apply 15 to any of the Committees' investigative activities, 16 including transcribed interviews. The way questioning 17 proceeds is that we will alternate between the majority and 18 minority staff for 1 hour each. The majority staff will 19 begin and proceed for an hour, and then the minority staff 20 will have an opportunity to ask questions. And we will 21 rotate back and forth until there are no more questions, and 22 then the interview will be over. 23 During the interview we will do our best to limit the 24 number of people who are directing questions at you during 25 any given hour.