Cofnod y Trafodion The Record of Proceedings Y Pwyllgor Cyllid The Finance Committee 15/12/2016 Agenda’r Cyfarfod Meeting Agenda Trawsgrifiadau’r Pwyllgor Committee Transcripts Cynnwys Contents 4 Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datgan Buddiannau Introductions, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of Interest 4 Papurau i’w Nodi Papers to Note 5 Y Bil Treth Gwarediadau Tirlenwi (Cymru): Sesiwn Dystiolaeth 1 Landfill Disposals Tax (Wales) Bill: Evidence Session 1 40 Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd o Weddill y Cyfarfod Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to Resolve to Exclude the Public from the Remainder of the Meeting Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle y mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad. The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript. 15/12/2016 Aelodau’r pwyllgor yn bresennol Committee members in attendance Mike Hedges Llafur Bywgraffiad|Biography Labour Steffan Lewis Plaid Cymru Bywgraffiad|Biography The Party of Wales Eluned Morgan Llafur Bywgraffiad|Biography Labour Nick Ramsay Ceidwadwyr Cymreig Bywgraffiad|Biography Welsh Conservatives Mark Reckless UKIP Cymru Bywgraffiad|Biography UKIP Wales David Rees Llafur Bywgraffiad|Biography Labour Simon Thomas Plaid Cymru (Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor) Bywgraffiad|Biography The Party of Wales (Committee Chair) Eraill yn bresennol Others in attendance Emma Cordingley Cyfreithiwr, Tîm Trysorlys Cymru, Llywodraeth Cymru Lawyer, Welsh Treasury Team, Welsh Government Mark Drakeford Aelod Cynulliad, Llafur (Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Bywgraffiad|Biography Gyllid a Llywodraeth Leol) Assembly Member, Labour (The Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government) Sarah Tully Rheolwr Prosiect Polisi Treth Ddatganoledig (Treth Gwarediadau Tirlenwi), Llywodraeth Cymru Devolved Taxes Policy Project Manager (Landfill Disposals Tax), Welsh Government 3 15/12/2016 Swyddogion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn bresennol National Assembly for Wales officials in attendance Bethan Davies Clerc Clerk Helen Jones Y Gwasanaeth Ymchwil The Research Service Georgina Owen Dirprwy Glerc Deputy Clerk Katie Wyatt Cynghorydd Cyfreithiol Legal Adviser Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 10:02. The meeting began at 10:02. Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datgan Buddiannau Introductions, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of Interest [1] Simon Thomas: Bore da. Simon Thomas: Good morning. I call Galwaf y cyfarfod i drefn. Dyma this meeting to order. This is a gyfarfod o’r Pwyllgor Cyllid; yr un meeting of the Finance Committee; it olaf cyn toriad y Nadolig. Felly, dyma is the final meeting before the fanteisio ar y cyfle i ddymuno Christmas recess. So, I wish you all a Nadolig llawen a blwyddyn newydd very merry Christmas and a happy dda i bawb, gan gynnwys y tystion a’r new year, including our witnesses. pwyllgor. [2] Mae’r cyfieithu, wrth gwrs, fel We have translation, as usual, on arfer, ar sianel 1, a’r sain ar sianel 0. channel 1, and amplification is on A gaf i ofyn ichi dawelu unrhyw channel 0. Can I ask you to put any ddyfeisiau electronig, jest er mwyn electronic devices on silent, in order hwylustod y pwyllgor? to facilitate the committee’s work? 10:03 4 15/12/2016 Papurau i’w Nodi Papers to Note [3] Simon Thomas: Yn gyntaf, cyn Simon Thomas: First of all, before we inni droi at y tystion, fe wna i ofyn i turn to the witnesses, I ask members aelodau’r pwyllgor jest nodi'r of the committee please to note the ohebiaeth sydd gyda ni: llythyr gan correspondence we have: a letter Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor Cydraddoldeb, from the Chair of the Equality, Local Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau Government and Communities parthed cwynion iechyd gan yr Committee with regard to health ombwdsmon gwasanaethau complaints from the public services cyhoeddus; llythyr gan Ysgrifennydd ombudsman; a letter from the y Cabinet dros Gyllid a Llywodraeth Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Leol ynglŷn â datganiad yr hydref, yn Local Government concerning the amlinellu’r deilliannau Barnett o autumn statement, outlining the gyhoeddiad yr hydref; llythyr hefyd Barnett consequentials from the gan Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet ynglŷn â autumn statement; a letter also from chynnig y gyllideb flynyddol yn the Cabinet Secretary concerning the cadarnhau’r amserlen; a chofnodion y annual budget motion confirming the cyfarfod a gynhaliwyd ar 7 Rhagfyr. A timetable; and the minutes of the yw pawb yn hapus i’w nodi? meeting held on 7 December. Is everybody happy to note those? [4] Mike Hedges: Hapus. Mike Hedges: Happy. [5] Simon Thomas: Diolch yn fawr Simon Thomas: Thank you very iawn i chi. much. 10:03 Y Bil Treth Gwarediadau Tirlenwi (Cymru): Sesiwn Dystiolaeth 1 Landfill Disposals Tax (Wales) Bill: Evidence Session 1 [6] Simon Thomas: A gaf i droi, Simon Thomas: Can I turn, therefore, felly, at yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet, gan to the Cabinet Secretary? I’d like to ei groesawu fe eto i’r pwyllgor? Rŷm welcome you to the committee once ni yma heddiw i drafod y Bil Treth again. We’re here today to discuss Gwarediadau Tirlenwi (Cymru), a the Landfill Disposals Tax (Wales) Bill, dyma ein sesiwn dystiolaeth gyntaf ni and this is our first evidence session gyda’r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet. A with the Cabinet Secretary. Could you 5 15/12/2016 wnewch chi, felly, gyflwyno’ch tîm, os please introduce your team? gwelwch yn dda? [7] Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros The Cabinet Secretary for Finance Gyllid a Llywodraeth Leol (Mark and Local Government (Mark Drakeford): Diolch yn fawr, Drakeford): Thank you very much, Gadeirydd. Gyda fi y bore yma mae Chair. This morning, I have with me Sarah Tully, sy’n rheolwr prosiect Sarah Tully, who is the devolved tax polisi treth datganoledig, ac Emma policy project manager, and Emma Cordingley, cyfreithwraig yn nhîm y Cordingley, a lawyer in the treasury trysorlys. team. [8] Simon Thomas: Diolch yn fawr. Simon Thomas: Thank you very Cyn inni droi at eich holi chi ar y Bil ei much. Before we begin questioning hunan, bob tro yr ŷch chi wedi dod i you on the Bill itself, every time you mewn gyda’r Bil, rŷm ni wedi dechrau have come to speak to us in relation gyda chwestiwn ar y fframwaith to a Bill, we have begun with cyllidol, achos mae’n amlwg, er questions on the fiscal framework, mwyn ystyried effaith y Bil, mae’n because, of course, in order to rhaid inni ddeall y cyd-destun cyllidol consider the Bill’s effects and sydd ynddo. Y tro diwethaf y impacts, we have to understand the daethoch chi gerbron y pwyllgor, fiscal context. The last time you rwy’n meddwl ichi sôn am gyfarfod â appeared before the committee, I Mr Gauke, byddwn i’n tybio cyn y think you were talking about a Nadolig, ac yn gobeithio cael terfyn meeting with Mr Gauke, I assume ar y trafodaethau erbyn diwedd y before Christmas, and you were flwyddyn. Ai dyma’r sefyllfa o hyd, ac hoping to conclude those discussions a oes yna unrhyw beth y medrwch chi by the end of the year. Is that still the ei ddweud wrth y pwyllgor ynglŷn â’r situation, and can you tell the trafodion hynny? committee anything about those discussions? [9] Mark Drakeford: Diolch yn Mark Drakeford: Thank you very fawr, Gadeirydd. Rŷm ni yn bwrw much, Chair. We are continuing with ymlaen gyda’r trafodaethau â’r the discussions with the Treasury. I Trysorlys. Cefais gyfarfod yma yng had a meeting here in Cardiff with Mr Nghaerdydd gyda Mr Gauke ar 1 Gauke on 1 December. I have a Rhagfyr. Mae galwad ffôn gen i gydag phone call with him tonight or at the e heno neu ddiwedd y prynhawn end of the afternoon. If we can agree yma. Os ydym yn gallu cytuno ar rai on some things—we’re on the final pethau—rydym ar y lap olaf, lap, I hope, of the discussions—but if 6 15/12/2016 gobeithio, nawr, o’r trafodaethau—os we can agree on some of the things gallaf gytuno gyda fe ar y pethau that are remaining today, I’m looking sydd ar ôl heddiw, rwy’n edrych i to go to London before Christmas fynd i Lundain cyn y Nadolig a dod â and bring everything together and phopeth at ei gilydd a dod â phopeth bring everything to a close. But we’re i ben. Ond nid ydym cweit yn y not quite in that situation this sefyllfa yna bore yma, achos mae rhai morning, because we still have some pethau gennym sy’n dal i fod ar y issues that are on the table to be bwrdd i’w trafod. Ond mae pethau discussed. But things have been very wedi bod yn bwrpasol, ac rwyf purposeful, and I am quite optimistic ychydig bach yn optimistig y bydd that it will be possible to do hi’n bosibl i wneud popeth cyn y everything before Christmas now. Nadolig nawr. [10] Simon Thomas: Os oes yna Simon Thomas: If you do have gytundeb cyn y Nadolig, sut y agreement before Christmas, how do byddwch yn bwriadu cyflwyno hynny you intend to present that to the i’r Cynulliad? Assembly? [11] Mark Drakeford: Wel, wrth Mark Drakeford: Well, of course, gwrs, rydym tu fas i amser y we’re outside Assembly business Cynulliad nawr. Os ydym yn gallu time now. But if we can agree cytuno yn ffurfiol wythnos nesaf, formally next week, the agreement bydd y cytundeb yn cael ei gyhoeddi will be announced between us and rhyngom ni a’r Trysorlys.